1. IrvingSnodgrass - July 29, 1999 - 11:06 AM PT
The recent death of JFK Jr. and the attendant media overload has led many people to re-examine the attention popular culture places upon certain individuals. Is anyone worthy of the amount of attention lavished upon celebrities and figures such as the Kennedys? Is it a good thing for children to idolize sports stars? Who were your heroes when you were young? Who are your heroes today? Are there fewer good role models today for young people?
2. Ronski - July 29, 1999 - 11:14 AM PT
My heroes today have been dead a very long time. Like Tom Paine.
I'm not sure I could come up with a single living American I would consider truly heroic, except for those people you hear about who rush into a burning building to save a child or pull somebody from a wreck seconds before it explodes.
And, of course, heroes tend to have that terrible tragic flaw: at least that is what the Greeks taught us.
3. judithathome - July 29, 1999 - 11:18 AM PT
My hero, long ago and now, was my father. He served in WWII, worked all his life, earned a degree in engineering from night school over a period of years, treated everyone as he wished to be treated, and provided his family with love and a wonderful home which he built himself and in which I still live today. He was a wonderful role model...the most gentle warrior I've ever know.
4. PsychProf - July 29, 1999 - 11:19 AM PT
Hero
5. theDiva - July 29, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
My mother and grandmother have been my heros since I was a very little girl. Selfless, strong women who exhibit(ed) grace and dignity under very trying circumstances; live(d) with a light touch and a love for life, family and God; radiate(d) surpassing beauty from within.
My father is my hero because he is a living example that a leopard can change his spots (and that's all I care to say about it), and because he gave me my lifelong love and appreciation of the finer things in life.
Other heroes: Jesus, St. Mary Magdalene, St. Catherine of Siena. Duke Ellington. Jane Austen.
6. jonesatlaw - July 29, 1999 - 12:06 PM PT
Public hero- Harry S. Truman. Very little like any of today's politicians of whatever stripe. He exemplied the spirit of Washington in asserting the power of the office and understanding that it is the office and not the man (or someday woman) who holds it that is important.
Personal hero- My Great-Aunt Tress. Born in a sod house on the prairie, she went on to work for the war department during in WWI, teach Navjo children at Ft. Wingate, NM and run a farm with her husband, and after he died, managed it herself for 30 years. She and Uncle Frank took my father in from a migrant camp in the California desert where my grandmother had been abandoned by her second husband, and gave him stability and love. It is no exaggeration to say she and my great Uncle saved my father. She had the gift of making you feel that you were something truly unique and wonderful. I've already gone on too long, and I haven't told you the half of it.
7. hashke - July 29, 1999 - 12:18 PM PT
jonesatlaw:
Interesting that your aunt taught at Ft. Wingate during WWI. My wife taught there for several years. Btw, the Navajo name for it is 'Shashbitoo'' -- 'bear water, bear spring'.
8. jonesatlaw - July 29, 1999 - 12:40 PM PT
Hashke- It was in the twenties, and she loved it. I have since heard horror stories about some of the mission and government schools. I am sure that it was a tough experience for some of the kids, but I have a hard time believing my Great-Aunt would have been harsh with the kids. She always said the kids were wonderful, and held them up as an example to all her nieces and nephews.
9. Wombat - July 29, 1999 - 1:12 PM PT
I think that the attempt to portray celebrities, superstars, and historical figures as "role models" is misguided and counterproductive. The true role models are much closer to home.
10. Mazaska - July 29, 1999 - 1:23 PM PT
What is the psychological pupose for heroes?
What need do they fill?
what would happen if someone had no heroes?
(I have been trying to think of who was my hero as a child. So far I am coming up empty.)
What makes a hero, individually thinking. Is it someone you admire? Is it someone you wish to emulate?
11. ScottLoar - July 29, 1999 - 1:48 PM PT
Heroes? In this age which will not admit of anyone greater than one's self, when feeding one's own appetite is considered right and good, when the concern of doctors of the mind is one's self-esteem, when persons are most engrossed in themselves? Heroes in the in-your-face America?
12. AzureNW - July 29, 1999 - 2:04 PM PT
Bill Gates is one of my personal heros. The amount of good clean wealth he has created by creating the pc industry, and the amount of good the wealth from that industry has already done, is astonishing.
13. ranheim - July 29, 1999 - 2:31 PM PT
I think that the need for heroes decreases with the increase of family. I come from a typical "extended family". I don't recall any of my siblings or cousins following the career of a sports super-star; movie star; president; etc. (This in the days prior to rock stars.)
With the amount of medea scrutiny today, is it possible to become a hero? With the possible exception of Mother Teresa, do any of you know a well publicized person whom the press hasn't printed embarrasing truths about? Media gives us expose articles on Princess Di; Michael Jordan; politicians; any kings left? All the previously mentioned happen to have feet of clay. Hard to make hero material out of them - but it is done.
14. Wombat - July 29, 1999 - 2:43 PM PT
Unless I have completely screwed up my Greek mythology...if you get too much Medea scrutiny, you will turn into stone.
15. FreetoChoose - July 29, 1999 - 2:47 PM PT
ranheim
Actually, there is quite a bit of dirt on Mother Teresa.
16. jonesatlaw - July 29, 1999 - 3:58 PM PT
FreetoChoose- More from the Drudge report?
17. judithathome - July 29, 1999 - 3:58 PM PT
wombat:
Too much Medea scrutiny results in a complex.
FTC:
Dirt according to Christopher Hitchens, who should certainly recognize it when he sees it.
18. CalGal - July 29, 1999 - 4:08 PM PT
Mohammed Ali is a hero? Nah. Although I thought his willingness to go to jail was pretty cool.
I have no heroes. People whose lives have impressed me:
Ted Williams
Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
King Faisel of Saudi Arabia
Steve Wozniak
Alexander Hamilton
Abigail Adams
Hmm. There are others, but it's a start.
19. phillipdavid - July 29, 1999 - 4:25 PM PT
Mazaka
Message #10
Heroes serve as an archetype we can admire and attempt to emulate. They are protagonists in the common story of life, and they offer a response to the riddles of life that lead us to meaning, purposfullness, and, ulitimately, rebirth.
Professor Toynbee noted years ago in his _A Study of History_, a study of the rise and disintegration of civilizations, that shism of the soul, schism of the body social, will not be resolved by schemes leading us back into the good old days; by any schemes designed to render an ideal projected future; nor by realistic effort to weld together again the deteriorating elements. Only birth can conquer death -- the birth, not of the old thing again, but of something new. Within the soul, within the body social, there must be -- if we are to experience long survival -- a continuous "recurrence of birth" (palingenesia) to nullify the unremitting recurrences of death.
So heroes call us to higher or new levels of existence. They spur that rebirth necessary to life -- whether in the microcosm (our own individual psychology) or in the macrocosm (the larger body social). They call us to a new way of being in the world.
I can't remeber who said it now (Wordsworth, Longfellow, Emerson?):
"Hitch your wagon to a star,
and find out who you really are."
In my mind, that is the purpose of heroes; to call up the more noble aspects of ourselves, water and germinate the seeds of light within, lead us and inspire us by example, pathfind a way through the riddles of life that we can follow to a higher plane. Lead to us to rebirth.
20. hashke - July 29, 1999 - 4:49 PM PT
The higher a hero climbs, the more of his butt you can see.
--A hashkian corruption of St. Bonaventure's (c. 1217-1274) 'Exemplum de simia, quae, cuanto plus ascendit, tanto plus apparent posteriora eus'.
21. judithathome - July 29, 1999 - 4:53 PM PT
phillipdavid:
post #19....very nicely done.
22. Mazaska - July 29, 1999 - 6:40 PM PT
very interesting.
but what if you have no heroes and feel no need of a hero?
what if you see everyone around you as a bit of a hero each in his or her own way?
23. hashke - July 29, 1999 - 7:31 PM PT
Mazaska:
You are being very Aristotelian. Are you at the moment peripateting?
;-)
And your moniker is very interesting. May I inquire as to its origins, provenience, provenance, etc.?
24. IrvingSnodgrass - July 29, 1999 - 7:33 PM PT
Here a nice send-up of celebrity cults from Slate:
Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye
25. AzureNW - July 29, 1999 - 8:42 PM PT
I think we are not all using the same definition for 'hero.'
26. EricCartman1 - July 29, 1999 - 9:48 PM PT
Ranheim/FTC/Jones/Judith:
Here is a Hitchens column from the Nation, written about 6 months before Mother T died. A relevant excerpt:
"Here is a woman who has already achieved canonization. This state of living sainthood might be defined as the miraculous condition of having all your actions judged by your reputation, instead of your reputation by your actions. And this is just as well, considering that her actions include:
§ flying to Haiti during the Duvalier regime to receive a high decoration, and announcing that the Duvaliers were friends of the poor;
§ accepting the Nobel Prize for Peace and declaring that the greatest threat to world peace was abortion;
§ stating that contraception and abortion are morally equivalent;
§ accepting a large donation of stolen savings-and-loan money from Charles Keating, giving him a crucifix in return and describing this pious fleecer of the small saver as a friend of the poor also.
"'Mother' Teresa has always preached indulgence to the rich and sacrifice and acceptance to the poor. Only recently, she campaigned in Ireland against the referendum that lifted the constitutional ban on divorce and remarriage. Yet when her new friend 'Princess' Diana got a divorce, she stated publicly that it was all for the best because the marriage had obviously been a wretched one. Never happier than when providing photo-ops for the powerful and the great, she runs a multinational missionary operation that is impossible to audit but that has, by her own admission, opened many more convents than clinics. As the national security adviser to a highly reactionary and authoritarian Pope, she clearly hopes to be recognized as founder of an order."
27. EricCartman1 - July 29, 1999 - 9:55 PM PT
(Hitchens excerpt cont.)
"John Paul II has already created five times as many saints as all of his twentieth-century predecessors combined, and the Vatican's 'Congregation for Sainthood Causes' -- already at work on the canonization of the gruesome Queen Isabella of Spain -- has all but announced that M.T. is on the fast track for the same dubious honor.
"This entire spurious cult actually originated with another bogus miracle. 'Mother' Teresa's break into the big time came in 1969, when Malcolm Muggeridge made a documentary about her for the BBC with the sickly title Something Beautiful for God. In the course of filming, claimed Muggeridge, there occurred 'the first authentic photographic miracle.' Film shot in a darkened room had turned out, when developed, to show a glow of light. Muggeridge, now the posthumous darling of the New Right, went so far as to claim that this was the 'kindly light' specified in Cardinal Newman's burdensome hymn of the same name. The highly professional cameraman in the case, Ken Macmillan (who shot Lord Clark's Civilization) testified that he had been using a specially made new Kodak film, designed for crepuscular scenes. But his evidence never caught up with the credulity of those who love to be fooled."
I suggest reading the entire column. It also discusses some moron (in the South) charging other morons for the privilege of seeing Mother T's face -- in a cinnamon roll. Indeed, maybe Darwin was wrong after all.
28. EricCartman1 - July 29, 1999 - 10:04 PM PT
Interesting that Hitchens is being pilloried these days for trafficking in "dirt", though no one contests that the "dirt" is, in fact, true. People just hate actual journalists poking holes in sacred cows. Perhaps they truly deserve the likes of Dan Rather sniffling his way through "Camelot" as an homage to "America's King", or whatever nonsense our media heroes were foisting upon us.
Frankly, I found the whole JFK coverage to be little more than necrophilia. CNN waiting in the wings, with their *underwater cameras*, breathlessly hoping for the first chance at the money shot. Utterly, cravenly disgusting, and shamelessly useless to any real definition of the word "news". By now, "TV journalist", by quality of the job they're doing, must be roughly on a par with "city dump technician" or "turkey stroker".
But yeah, that Hitchens, *he's* the bad guy. If that's the case, we need more bad guys. I'd take a million Hitchenses, and their drinking problems, over anyone at any network "news" department.
29. joezan - July 29, 1999 - 10:07 PM PT
Amen to that, Cartman.
30. jonesatlaw - July 29, 1999 - 10:18 PM PT
Mother Theresa, a Catholic nun favored official church teaching on abortion, divorce etc. Imagine! An order of nuns opens convents!
That's not "dirt" that's someone who disapproves of the Vatican at least or Catholics in general. Who'd they interview for this, members of the UDA, KKK etc?
Since Keating's convictions were overturned, "stolen" money might be reconsidered. He's still slime, I agree, as is Duvalier. However, if she could use the money for the utterly poor of a third world nation, I could understand how one might make an effort to see the donor in a more forgiving light. You tell some starving or dying person, sorry I could have got the medicine you need, or some food, but I just didn't approve of the person who donated it. Please don't die until I find someone worthy.
Even saints are not perfect human beings, apparently only journalists are.
31. jonesatlaw - July 29, 1999 - 10:27 PM PT
In my personal experience some of the sacredest cows in the world are in the media. Many of them not only know nothing of what they cover, they don't even suspect anything. They are little people who like to play "gotcha!" and scream like the furies when they are exposed to any scrutiny at all.
32. spudboy - July 29, 1999 - 10:49 PM PT
I don't believe in hero-worship at all -- I actually think it induces some of humankind's worst traits, particularly as we endeavor to become heroic ourselves. Heroism always requires naming an enemy, and some of the worst episodes of history have arisen from this process.
But I do find some people admirable. Lance Armstrong is pretty high on my list right now.
33. CIGARLAW - July 29, 1999 - 11:54 PM PT
napoleon for changing the world
winston churchill for his stubbornness
fdr for saving capitalism
u.s. grant for his memoirs
every pilot and gunner that flew tbd's at midway
my parents and grandparents
34. CIGARLAW - July 29, 1999 - 11:55 PM PT
napoleon for changing the world
winston churchill for his stubbornness
fdr for saving capitalism
u.s. grant for his memoirs
every pilot and gunner that flew tbd's at midway
king arthur
my parents and grandparents
35. CIGARLAW - July 29, 1999 - 11:55 PM PT
napoleon for changing the world
winston churchill for his stubbornness and his vices
fdr for saving capitalism
u.s. grant for his memoirs
every pilot and gunner that flew tbd's at midway
king arthur
my parents and grandparents
36. CIGARLAW - July 29, 1999 - 11:57 PM PT
i forot cyrano d'bergerac
37. ethiopianeunuch - July 30, 1999 - 12:03 AM PT
Jesus
38. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 1:37 AM PT
Jones Message #30:
"Who'd [Hitchens] interview for [his article/book on Mother Teresa], members of the UDA, KKK etc?"
Actually, he interviewed Mother T *herself*, and flew to Calcutta to see her operation firsthand. And yes, Hitchens' diatribes against MT are obviously the viewpoint of an atheist. But common sense should tell you that it's downright idiotic to actively prevent your "clients" from even using condoms, as MT did to her subjects, in one of the most overpopulated, blighted areas on God's green earth. Does piety excuse willful ignorance? I think not.
I should point out that Hitchens also says that MT personally told him that she felt that suffering was basically part of the job. *Preventing* suffering was not the point, *tending* to suffering, and earning celestial brownie points along the way, was the deal. And she jetted around the world, ever in search of publicity for her cause, whcih was calling attention to the fact that she took care of the perpetually impoverished. Certainly a fine deed, but a sensible part of the goal should have been maybe preventing *more* needlessly impoverished souls.
Hitchens' point overall was that there are many people in other parts of the world, trying to actually *help* the poor, not by proselytizing hoary nonsense, and telling them that their suffering is God's will, but by actually taking steps to make those people's lives better. And *they* are true heroes and saints.
"Since Keating's convictions were overturned, 'stolen' money might be reconsidered."
Sure. And O.J. Simpson is technically innocent.
39. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 1:48 AM PT
(cont. to Jones):
"Even saints are not perfect human beings, apparently only journalists are."
No one is talking about perfect. Hitchens is merely giving the details on what this woman did, and why maybe "instant sainthood" is just glossing over the ugly truth. We're in the latter part of the 20th century, with marvelous technological advances and knowledge. There is no practical reason for anyone to be *discouraging* people to practice sensible family planning. It's just basic common sense. I simply do not understand how the Pope can travel to those godawful slums, in places like Manila and Sao Paulo, and look at all those poor people, and just say, "Hey, folks! Keep on pumpin' them babies out! Have a dozen! 'Cause God wants you all to be poor and suffer with a shitload of sick kids!"
Do you see the logical conflict here, Jones? Faith flies in the face of common sense, and the world becomes ever more overpopulated. That is not heroism, that is sheer folly.
"[Mother T] favored official church teaching on abortion, divorce etc."
Read the article a bit more closely. You're off a bit. She believed that contraception and abortion were morally equivalent; wearing a condom is somehow equivalent to aborting an actual fetus. I mean, how asinine is that? Cue the Monty Python song "Every Sperm Is Sacred". I can accept the moral proscription against abortion, but on *contraception*? Please.
As for divorce, she favored keeping the ban on divorce in Ireland. Fair enough. But when Princess Di got one, Mother T was by her side to let the world know that was okey-doke by her. Apparently Mother T believed in the old practice of selling "indulgences", n'est-ce pas? As long as you donate sufficiently to the Church, you can do whatever you want -- get divorced, or do like Mike Kennedy -- bang your 15-year-old babysitter and get your 12-year, 2-child marriage annulled.
40. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 2:02 AM PT
I should clarify a few things. I really don't mean to single out Mother Teresa to pick on. I originally just wanted to point out a few facts regarding her and her "ministry" to the earlier queries.
But it's made me think more about how, in a world seemingly devoid of heroes, and all too accepting of lowered expectations, too many people are overeager to find a hero. So they tend to be uncritical of the first one trotted out before them. The Princess Di crash was a very telling moment, because so many people insisted that what she did in her life (whatever the hell that might have been) meant something to *their* lives. And a moment's reflection would have pointed out the truth: famous person dies tragically. Bummer. Move on with your life now.
But do so many people become so uncritically accepting of the Di's and Mother T's of the world, because they just need something/anything? And is that a sensible option? When the standards become lower for "heroism", what do we end up accepting? Well, look at our political culture, and our artistic milieu, and you figure it out. Mediocrity is acceptable. We are geared toward the average rather than the exceptional. Charisma trumps talent big-time, every time.
And when anyone can be a "hero", given enough face time, then cynicism breeds, 'cause anyone paying attention to the details knows that *none* of 'em are really heroes.
41. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 2:40 AM PT
Since obsession, as a function of hero-worship, is also a topic in this thread, here's a link to this column, also by Hitchens, which pulls the curtain back from the vomit-inducing Di coverage of '97, and the subsequent tacky cottage industry that mycologically sprang forth from the accumulated manure.
Excerpt: "The divine one's will...reserved not one penny for charity and redistributed a huge fortune among the richest families in the country. The Queen...did not weep before the cameras until...her Royal Yacht was towed away to the scrapyard a few months after that. Mohammed Fayed has been exposed yet again as a vulgar influence peddler and distributor of thick envelopes. Lord Spencer's divorce proceedings have revealed him to be the centerpiece of one of the nastiest bunches of upper-crust bastard-dom since the disappearance of Lord Lucan. Every leading character in that week of bogus emotion and mass credulity has since been unmasked--as if any removal of camouflage were necessary. (I exempt 'those poor boys', who are now wholly owned by the gruesome House of Windsor, to be stored as a blood bank for an exhausted line and kept in perpetual training for the job that ruined the lives of both their parents. Monarchism, as well as being a fraud on the crowd beneath the balcony, is a human sacrifice of its hereditary representatives).
"Utterly humdrum deeds became the stuff of eulogy. Breathless columnists continue to pant over her ability to walk and talk at once. Diana's postmortem canonisation didn't occur despite her faults, but because of them. For this reason, there's little bounty in asking why she should now be touted as a role model for our times. Flailing around in search of the adult within, Diana immeritously rose to her bad eminence....Diolatry drags mediocrity before the public gaze, and shows it reflected there in gilded splendor."
42. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 2:54 AM PT
I goofed on the link in Message #41. The article is here.
43. wexxford1 - July 30, 1999 - 3:03 AM PT
How can you have heroes when Madison Avenue makes clear to all that it,Mad Ave, casts heroes from the endless pool in Central casting . That ghastly woman soccer player is an example . Hundreds of yarns in newspapers and magazines. Endless time on TV. A ' role model " at the snap of a finger . Kiddies are now running around shouting " I wanna be a role model ,too. " Vomit making, this Madison Avenue propaganda, and dangerous for kiddies .
44. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 3:10 AM PT
The link in Message #26 doesn't work either. This one should work.
I hate when that happens!
45. FreetoChoose - July 30, 1999 - 5:29 AM PT
jonesatlaw
I see that EricCartman1 has already ready responded eloquently, but at the risk of piling on:
• Some people would refuse to accept money from a Keating, even if the money would be used for good works. I, (and apparently you), wouldn't agree that it is moral to turn down money simply because the donor was scum. However, where I would draw the line is sucking up in the way she did. I see this as prostituting herself.
• I can understand and sympathize with a Catholic who accepts the catholic dogma on abortion. However, there is a gulf between “favor[ing] official church teaching on abortion” and “declaring that the greatest threat to world peace was abortion”. Do you think this is defensible?
• You seem to have missed Hitchens excoriation re divorce. He wasn't railing at her for supporting the official line on divorce, he was railing about the hypocrisy of the exception granted to Di. Do you support the hypocrisy?
46. PincherMartin - July 30, 1999 - 5:41 AM PT
All my heros are either dead or has-been atheletes.
The Dead:
Vladimir Nabokov
Theodore Roosevelt
Gore Vidal (near-dead)
Abraham Lincoln
John Hay
Bertrand Russell
H.L. Mencken
The Has-been atheletes:
Don Sutton
Steve Garvey (the Shame!)
Gail Goodrich
John Stockton (almost a has-been)
Fernando Valenzuela
Lawrence McCutcheon (L.A. Ram Running Back of the Seventies)
47. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 6:24 AM PT
Christopher Hitchens is a pig. Mother Theresa dedicated her entire life's work to helping the poor. What the hell has Hitchens ever done for anyone except himself?
Sfaccime.
48. msgreer - July 30, 1999 - 6:47 AM PT
diva
message 47... thank you. i couldn't have said it any better.
have a nice weekend.
49. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 6:47 AM PT
A few points on MT (who I met twice btw).
1) Her brand of Catholicism was uncomfortably conservative, and she appalled me with her speech on abortion at the Nobels - but she was not a missionary in the strict sense. That is, she did ot go around coercing people to become Christians at all.
2) She genuinely did something noble, her order provides the lowest of the low (the dying destitute) a haven and some comfort wherever it works. I don't think this can be glossed over, or looked at as a cheap trick. If you think it was, go check out one of her "Sadans" in this country or preferably in a third world nation.
3) Her cozying up to people like Keating and the Duvaliers is trivial. She posed with and praised anyone who either helped her cause or promoted it. Example: me. And countless others. The fact that the Duvaliers let her set up a Sadan in their country led her to fly there - not some sinister collaboration. I find this part of Hitchens' argument quite malicious and meaningless. The same with Keating - he fed her cash, she took it. Big fucking deal.
50. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 6:48 AM PT
4) In other words, Mother Teresa was a tough, dogged, tireless woman on a mission. The mission: (1) provide comfort and care to those who don't have it and (2) try to embody and promote her strong beliefs in a conservative Catholicism. Like most human beings, she probably made some mistakes and compromises which in retrospect could be misused to tarnish her actual accomplishments. But why hold her or any other human being to such an exalted unrealistic standard. The reason MT is revered in India, I can tell you, is not for being a "saint". She is considered a hero there (and got a state funeral) because she never stopped working to provide comfort to the most degraded in society. Period.
5) What _is_ genuinely disgusting and cloying is the intemperate rush by this doddering Pope and the Church structure to sanctify (canonize) MT. She's being rushed to the front of the sainhood queue and will be Saint Teresa very very soon, exposing the whole canonization process for the farce it is, and this Pope as the manipulative PR jockey that he is.
51. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 6:53 AM PT
Ms. G
Thanks....and you have a good one, too. Now go rest your hand, lady!
Banks
Eloquently said, though I'm not so sure about the canonization stuff....I haven't been following it very closely. In any case, thank you for your post.
52. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 6:59 AM PT
"Eloquently said, though I'm not so sure about the canonization stuff....I haven't been following it very closely. "
Diva, I have, it's a farce, a huge joke. The requisite "miracles" are being trumped up and stamped with approval as we speak. The message is "make Teresa a saint pronto" and it comes from the infallible Pole himself, so you can bet they're working feverishly.
Sorry if that sounds wexxfordian and cynical - it's the truth and I find it disgusting and revelatory of the process behind this whole sainthood racket.
53. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 7:04 AM PT
Spoken as only a cradle Catholic could. (g)
If they're rushing, then it's particularly odd, as I'm sure you know. Usually it takes hundreds of years, and a pack of certified miracles, to canonize someone. Nonetheless, she was a good woman, as you've noted. She may very well deserve canonization.
54. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 7:08 AM PT
Diva,
"Mother Teresa canonization delay waived
Archbishop begins process for beatification, sainthood
Associated Press
CALCUTTA, India - Pope John Paul II has waived the mandatory wait of five years after death to begin the process of possible sainthood for Mother Teresa, the archbishop of Calcutta said Sunday.
Archbishop Henry D'Souza told The Associated Press he received a letter from the Vatican's Congregation for the Causes of the Saints on Dec. 12 announcing the waiver, but had not publicized it.
In Rome, the Vatican confirmed the waiver by the pope, who had previously indicated the five-year wait would be required, even for the internationally beloved nun.
With the waiver, Calcutta's archbishop has been allowed to begin the process of gathering information and testimony about Mother Teresa in the first step toward possible beatification and sainthood.
Beatification requires the confirmation of a miracle. After that, research on a second miracle, needed for canonization, can begin.
Archbishop D'Souza said he hopes the late nun will be declared a saint in 2000, when the Vatican celebrates the start of the third millennium of Christianity. "
The Pope wants her a saint and he wants her a saint now. He's visiting India late this year or early next year and he wants to be able to declare it a done deal. Never mind that there are several other Indian candidates who've been in administrative limbo for years, decades, even centuries. Phooey on the whole sainthood circus I say.
55. Mazaska - July 30, 1999 - 7:09 AM PT
hashke - msg#23
My conclusions come from experience. I have not studied Aristotle. In fact, SeaSailor's constant harping on Aristotle in the Religion thread have given my a positive dislike of Aristotle.
Mazaska means silver in a Native American language.
I probably spell it wrong as I never saw it written down.
It is a part of a longer Native American name given to a friend of mine who gave me permission to use it.
What does "haske" mean?
AzureNW - good point. Perhaps we should start posting definitions. What do you mean by "hero"?
56. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 7:34 AM PT
Major
Very enlightening, and distressing. I wonder what the deal is....why the Pope waived the waiting period. Quite obviously he wants to have her canonized during his lifetime, but why? Hmmm....
57. Mazaska - July 30, 1999 - 7:37 AM PT
Diva -
It's politics, politics, politics. Isn't everything?
58. FreetoChoose - July 30, 1999 - 7:48 AM PT
marjoribanks
“She genuinely did something noble, her order provides the lowest of the low (the dying destitute) a haven and some comfort wherever it works. I don't think this can be glossed over, or looked at as a cheap trick.”
Has someone called it a cheap trick? No one is glossing over her good works; precisely the opposite is the issue. Hitchens appears to feel that her good works get her a pass on questionable conduct. Or if he doesn't, I do.
“Her cozying up to people like Keating and the Duvaliers is trivial.”
Really? That will come as comfort to a few senators who took some heat for cozying up to Keating.
“The fact that the Duvaliers let her set up a Sadan in their country led her to fly there - not some sinister collaboration. I find this part of Hitchens' argument quite malicious and meaningless.”
Where did you find it? I didn't see any reference to a sinister collaboration.
“The same with Keating - he fed her cash, she took it. Big fucking deal.”
Again, you miss the point. Take his cash; fine with me. It's the praise that is hypocritical.
59. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 7:52 AM PT
Maz
I'm afraid I can't agree with you there. I've seen too much good come from this Pope just to chalk it up entirely to opportunism.
60. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 8:14 AM PT
FTC,
I just lost a post to you, and I'm not going to bother to reconstruct it. Your "points" are meaningless nitpicking and I find you annoying.
Diva,
What "good" has come from this Pope in your opinion?
61. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 8:19 AM PT
I knew you were going to ask me that, and knowing you, you're going to want concrete examples. Give me a few minutes.
62. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 8:25 AM PT
Diva,
Looking at it from the perspective of an enthusiastic Catholic (which I'm not) I can come up with exactly two things:
1) He's shrewdly marketed himself to Catholic youth, with some remarkable success.
2) He has taken the trouble to travel incessantly all over the globe.
63. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 8:27 AM PT
Oh, and I wouldn't be above giving him some credit for his stance on the Soviet Union.
To spare your delicate sensibilities (and not spend a full hour writing on this Forum) I won't even start on the negatives.
64. CalGal - July 30, 1999 - 8:32 AM PT
Ah. Gore Vidal. I forgot him--add him to my list of people I like.
I side with Cart and FTC on Mother Teresa. She was the sort who got a personal kick out of being "selfless"--I doubt she could have denied herself the enjoyment any more than Clinton could turn down Lewinsky. Self-indulgence can take many forms.
65. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 8:34 AM PT
Marj
Your #1 is pretty significant. There's been an increase in vocations as a result.
He's also been quite forceful in his opposition to the death penalty; he was supportive of the Polish Solidarity movement, receiving a delegation headed by Walesa back in the early 80s. There's more, I have to keep reading.
66. wabbit - July 30, 1999 - 8:35 AM PT
I don't know, CalGal, but I'm of the opinion that if more people got a kick out of being selfless, there would be less need of MT having to be so self-promotional to attract attention to her cause.
67. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 8:36 AM PT
Marj
Okay, so the Pope is a hard sell to you. Fair enough.
Delicate sensibilities? Moi.(G)
68. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 8:37 AM PT
Oh yeah, that Mother Teresa. She was all about self-gratification.
69. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 8:47 AM PT
Diva,
Not the Pope, this Pope. He's done many nasty, reactionary, bullying things in office. And he is most definitely an outright misogynist. But there is always hope for a good Pope when he's gone, though our Pole has definitely tried to rig the process to raise up a toady.
BTW, I was psyched when this Pope was raised up. It meant a second holiday from school in just a few weeks. It was a good start indeed.
70. CalGal - July 30, 1999 - 8:56 AM PT
Wabbit--I wasn't thinking of her self-promotionalism, quite frankly. Just that there is a certain sort of person who gets such a kick out of martyrdom and how *good* they are being that there's no more self-denial in it than a yuppie who gets cranky if she misses her facial.
On the other hand, there is no question that our do-gooderism ranks would be thinned out significantly if we disallowed those who got a kick out of it.
Diva--"She was all about self-gratification."
Well, yes. It takes the oddest forms, some times.
71. DocBrown - July 30, 1999 - 9:09 AM PT
How on Earth can we have a thread about heroes and not mention Astronauts?
Shining far above sports stars, politicians, writers, and religious figures, Astronauts are hand picked and trained to be heroes. These men and women are very brave, very intelligent, and very enthusiastic.
My personal lifetime hero has been John Glenn. War hero, test pilot, astronaut, and Senator, Glenn has been someone I could admire all my life. His darkest moment, the Keating scandal, made him even more heroic. He dealt with the crisis calmly, and emerged from the situation unscathed.
I was delighted when NASA gave him a shuttle ride.
Frankly, the manned space program is a very inefficient way to explore space. The ONLY real value of the program is to provide heroes. In that capacity, John Glenn was and is perfect for the job.
72. marjoribanks - July 30, 1999 - 9:15 AM PT
Rubbish.
You are apparently unable to conceive people and a world different from your own miasma of instant gratification and mundanity. Mother Teresa inhabited a world of hard work and giving, a place where there is genuine suffering and anguish (not concocted psycho-traumas). Late in her life, she realized that she could take this work worldwide, and perhaps committed some sins of excess in pursuing her goal. That is all.
She can only be considered guilty of being a flawed human being, even if she led what is mostly an exemplary life.
Equating her with elected politicians is one of the very stupidest tacks I have seen. I suppose it needs to be pointed out that she was not one.
73. Mazaska - July 30, 1999 - 9:15 AM PT
Diva msg#59 - politics has much more to it than opportunism and i wasn't thinking of opportunism when I made my post.
74. wabbit - July 30, 1999 - 9:27 AM PT
CalGal,
I think an argument could be made that even a "self-serving" martyr does, in fact, exhibit some self-denial, if only subconsciously. Think about the things a person who insists on being (as opposed to playing) a martyr must miss out on; a family life or a real personal life, for instance.
Also, I didn't mean to sound as if I was criticizing MT for her self-promotionalism. These days a cause seems to need a personality in order to attract attention/funds/volunteers (see Wexxford's endless rants). Someone has to do the stumping, be the salesperson. It's another aspect of martyrdom, I guess, but in MT's case I'd put it several leagues higher up the nobility scale than the self-promotionalism of politicians or celebrities.
None of this is to say I agree with the current beatification process for MT. I can't help but wonder whether what qualifies as a miracle will become cheapened. Much like the lost distinction between heroes and idols.
75. theDiva - July 30, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT
I gotta tell you, Cal, your posts about Mother Teresa are some of the funniest you've ever made. Thanks for the belly laughs.
76. 109109 - July 30, 1999 - 9:47 AM PT
Some heroes
Harry Truman
William T. Sherman
Charles Willeford
David Hackworth
Christopher Hitchens
Chuck Yeager
Roberto Clemente
Robert Kennedy
I will comment on Hitchens, only because of the Mother Teresa discussion. It is the fact of Hitchens' article that makes him so wonderful, because, on face, it looks like a circus act - Oh, let's attack Mother Teresa - but in substance, while I disagree with many of his conclusions, it is a damn fine piece. He has also written beautifully on the Clintons and on the death penalty, his opinions on the former I sahre, and the latter, I don't, but boy can he write.
77. 109109 - July 30, 1999 - 9:47 AM PT
sahre=share
78. bubbaette - July 30, 1999 - 9:52 AM PT
Big Heroes:
Joan of Arc
Nelson Mandela
Martin Luther King
Gandhi
Marie Curie
Little Heroes:
LBJ, because of his forcing the issue on civil rights, even if it gave rise to the strength of the GOP in the South
John Warner, because of refusing to support Bork, Oliver North, Mike Farris as required by his party's line.
Rosa Parks
Margaret Sanger
79. bubbaette - July 30, 1999 - 9:54 AM PT
also -- Mark Twain, because he's my favorite all-around writer.
80. CalGal - July 30, 1999 - 10:03 AM PT
"Equating her with elected politicians is one of the very stupidest tacks I have seen. I suppose it needs to be pointed out that she was not one."
Did I do that? I didn't even think that FTC and Cart did that, but if they did...shrug. Scratch me saying I side with them, if only because I'm indifferent to whatever similarities there are. I only meant that I didn't think she was all that impressive, which is what I thought they were saying as well.
"You are apparently unable to conceive people and a world different from your own miasma of instant gratification and mundanity. "
Ah, yes. That must be it.
Wabbit,
"I think an argument could be made that even a "self-serving" martyr does, in fact, exhibit some self-denial, if only subconsciously. Think about the things a person who insists on being (as opposed to playing) a martyr must miss out on; a family life or a real personal life, for instance."
Even a person who plays a martyr exhibits self-denial--if only for enjoyment. The enjoyment comes from the self-denial, I suppose.
Anyway, it's a small point. As I said, the world requires a certain amount of these folks. And it would be a pity to make them unhappy.
81. hashke - July 30, 1999 - 10:10 AM PT
Mazaska #55:
Your handle has a sturdy ring to it. From what Native American language is it?
hashke (Hashké) is a Navajo name meaning 'warrior, fierce, mean'. It can be used to describe certain dogs, as well.
82. FreetoChoose - July 30, 1999 - 10:30 AM PT
marjoribanks
“Your "points" are meaningless nitpicking and I find you annoying.”
That's curious (though far from impossible). Had you noticed that I was generally agreeing with you?
MT has done some wonderful work, but the movement to canonize her is overboard. Do you disagree?
83. hashke - July 30, 1999 - 10:35 AM PT
Some quiet types who were and are probably heroes, subconsciously at least, to me in my younger, and present, days:
Mom and Dad, of course, who put up with me.
My wife, who keeps me on track.
My kids, who tell me I ain't too bad a dad.
A band director who taught me something about team play.
A violist and violinist who boosted my interest in music and the humanities, who lent me his books in German and his record collection when he went off to war.
A high school football coach who made me a fullback and linebacker, and taught me how to juke and change pace.
A sociologist who talked me into applying to Harvard.
A railroad brakeman who patiently taught me the art of walking along the top ofa moving train, jumping off it without losing a leg, and how to 'throw' a freight car.
A mortician, acrobat, and weightlifter who showed me how to jump through a train window instead of using the steps.
A flight instructor who taught me how to land at night without landing lights (they were not functioning for all of the night landings we did).
A balloon flight instructor who taught me through his own examples the consequences of pilot error.
And so forth. They are legion. Probably everyone here is a hero to somebody out there.
84. FreetoChoose - July 30, 1999 - 10:39 AM PT
DocBrown
Astronauts are OK, but give me Yeager over Glenn.
85. FreetoChoose - July 30, 1999 - 10:43 AM PT
marjoribanks
“Equating her with elected politicians is one of the very stupidest tacks I have seen.”
So who did this?
“I suppose it needs to be pointed out that she was not one.”
I doubt it. Who is confused on this point?
86. hashke - July 30, 1999 - 10:45 AM PT
PincherMartin:
Vidal. Nearly dead?
He is one of my favorite essayists. He admits in 'Palimpsest' that he polishes off two thirds of a bottle of scotch in an evening. A piece of cake to some tipplers I've known.
87. CalGal - July 30, 1999 - 10:47 AM PT
Oh, I forgot to bitch about that. Glenn's a great guy, but I'd go with Yeager, too.
Neil Armstrong--not so much for going to the moon, but for his performance when his ship went out of control on an earlier flight and he kept his cool while the ship was spinning wildly and he and the crew were puking their guts out.
Frank Boorman, for reading Genesis on Christmas Day--or for his presentation to Congress after Apollo One, which saved the day.
Or Slayton and Shepard, both of whom were yanked for minor health problems and stayed to run the program, protecting and supporting the astronauts. I view it as one of life's nice little miracles that both of them were afforded the opportunity to get up there after all--Shepard to hit the first golfball in lunar history, Slayton to meet up with the Soviets.
88. jonesatlaw - July 30, 1999 - 11:12 AM PT
Oh what a scheming self promoter that Mother Theresa was! Care for the sick and dying of Calcutta for a few decades, (personally at first) and when you're an old woman you can relentlessly travel the world sucking up to politicians and the wealthy to fund even more places to care for people that no one else cared about or would do ANYTHING for. As far as birth control is concerned, she did not stand for the proposition that birth control is wrong, but that *artificial birth control* is wrong. Since many of the means of artifical birth control are expensive, and her ministry was to the poorest of the poor that is not too surprising. Finally, more than anything else the woman fought for the notion that life is sacred. It included for her the poor, the outcast, the diseased and yes, the "unborn". You can disagre with her views and theology all you want, but to portray her as a pious hypocrite is dishonest.
As for Cuck and Di's divorce, I'm sure she gave it all the consideration it was worth, virtually none. What did it mean to her work for the poor? Did she have to issue some reprimand to Di because the press demanded one? Do you know for sure what, if anything, she said to her privately? Do you know if Di might have been entitled to an annulment per Cannon law? Does Hitchens have the vaguest idea, or just his own agenda, disguised as reporting on someone else?
89. PsychProf - July 30, 1999 - 11:17 AM PT
Here is a photo of the "self-promoter"
90. PincherMartin - July 30, 1999 - 11:48 AM PT
Hashke --
"He is one of my favorite essayists. He admits in 'Palimpsest' that he polishes off two thirds of a bottle of scotch in an evening. A piece of cake to some tipplers I've known."
He's one of my favorites as well. Unfortunately, he doesn't spin off those essays with quite the regularity he use to. I rarely see him anymore in the NY Review of Books, and the occassional piece I do see in other periodicals (GQ, Vanity Fair) usually isn't up to his previous standard of excellence. But he will be 74 this year. Anyone that age deserves to take it down a notch or two.
_Palimpest_ was a wonderful book, by the way.
91. CalGal - July 30, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
It was a wonderful book. Terribly sad.
92. hashke - July 30, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
PincherMartin:
Thanks for those comments!
He needs to take it down a scotch or two.
93. Amaxen - July 30, 1999 - 1:54 PM PT
I've always liked the people who did what was unpopular but right in their time - that cost them something, even if it meant that their names would be at best forgotten or at worst excoriated by the people & historians.
One (relatively uncontroversial) hero in this vein was Billy Mitchell - military officer who demonstrated that airplanes could sink battleships in the 20s-30s. He knew when he did it that he was throwing away his career, and he never did get much recognition or glory for his act, but if he had not taken action to do what was right in his eyes, we would not have had a large carrier force in WWII, and thus would have had a much more difficult time of it.
George Washington is not remembered for one of his most heroic acts , refusing to throw in with his officers in a rebellion against the continental congress - - even though the congress had given the continental army ample reasons to rebel. GW not only refused, but talked his troops out of rebellion. Anyone know more about this incident? I know his speech at that time (to the mutineers) is famous. . .
94. pellenilsson - July 30, 1999 - 2:15 PM PT
I've also met Mother Theresa, at a lepra colony in Yemen but I didn't come away with any distinct impression. But nobody can deny the good works done in her name.
I agree with Pincher about Bertrand Russel (and I don't disagree about the others - I'm an fan of Vidal but he's not a hero of mine).
My nomination.
Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Heir of Isildur, Bearer of the Sword that was Broken and Forged Anew.
95. Wombat - July 30, 1999 - 2:18 PM PT
They were officers who asked that he become dictator and march on Philadelphia to force Congress to pay them. He--very fortuitously --read a letter from Congress promising that their demands would be met. When he opened the letter, he paused to put on spectacles, and commented that he had given his eyesight to the cause, which reduced his listeners to tears and ended any talk about marching on Philadelphia.
Billy Mitchell didn't ruin his career by showing that unmanned, unarmed, unmoving, and obsolete warships could be sunk by aircraft. He did it by accusing his superiors--in the press--of treasonous behavior for failing to fight budget cuts to the Army Air Force (during the Depression, no less). The Army offered him every chance to apologize for his intemperate remarks, and he refused. He was courtmartialed, allowed to retire, and died shortly thereafter.
96. Amaxen - July 30, 1999 - 4:50 PM PT
Wombat,
The interpretation that I had of the Mitchell episode was that he was court martialed for the charges you specified, but that it had pretty much been made clear to him that his career was over because of his advocacy of air power: He figured he might as well be hung for a goat as for a sheep (or however that phrase goes. . .)
97. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 7:01 PM PT
Always glad to stoke a controversy:
Jones Message #88:
"Care for the sick and dying of Calcutta for a few decades, (personally at first) and when you're an old woman you can relentlessly travel the world sucking up to politicians and the wealthy to fund even more places to care for people that no one else cared about or would do ANYTHING for."
As I already pointed out, part of the reason for that was that Mother T *told* Hitchens, in no uncertain terms, that by helping the "lowest of the low", she was gaining grace in the eyes of God. Like it or not, part of the agenda was earning celestial brownie points.
"As far as birth control is concerned, she did not stand for the proposition that birth control is wrong, but that *artificial birth control* is wrong."
Thank you for pointing out such a fine distinction, Jonesy. Frankly, I find the hardcore Vatican stance that rubbers & diaphragms and such are wrong to be as noxious as anything the Taliban has come up with concerning women. Faith is a fine thing, but when it's rooted in such willful ignorance, forget it.
"Since many of the means of artifical birth control are expensive, and her ministry was to the poorest of the poor that is not too surprising."
Well, she could have sold a convent and used the money to buy a lot of rubbers, but hey, that would have prevented yet another valuable life, I suppose. Sex is only for procreation and all that.
98. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 7:03 PM PT
"Finally, more than anything else the woman fought for the notion that life is sacred. It included for her the poor, the outcast, the diseased and yes, the 'unborn'. You can disagree with her views and theology all you want, but to portray her as a pious hypocrite is dishonest."
Yes, yes, every sperm is sacred and all that. Hopefully you keep that in mind on the off chance you get reincarnated as a Sao Paulo slum-dweller. You and your 20+ siblings can greet Il Papa from your two-room shanty, tell him how great life is begging in the streets.
"As for Chuck and Di's divorce, I'm sure she gave it all the consideration it was worth, virtually none."
No, Di decided it would be great photo-op to hang with MT after the big split. Whether MT volunteered her opinion or not is irrelevant; no one asked her to go to Ireland and declare how evil divorce is, she did it on her own. (Actually, the Vatican asked her to, but no Irish voters did.)
"What did it mean to her work for the poor?"
A lot, because Di was giving MT a lot of free publicity.
"Do you know for sure what, if anything, she said to her privately?"
No, nor do I care what she said privately. If she's going to go out of her way to castigate the Irish for wanting to join the 20th century, she'd best be consistent on such things. If Ireland had decided to give her a grant, she probably would have shown up and said whatever they wanted her to, including "divorce is OK".
99. EricCartman1 - July 30, 1999 - 7:08 PM PT
"Do you know if Di might have been entitled to an annulment per canon law? Does Hitchens have the vaguest idea, or just his own agenda, disguised as reporting on someone else?"
I don't think Chuck & Di were Catholic. Weren't they Anglican, as in the church started by Henry the 8th so he could get divorced?
Of course Hitchens had an agenda -- pointing out the truth about all this beatific claptrap. Look, it's great that MT took care of the downtrodden in Calcutta, and that's a lot. But she refused to let these people practice ANY form of birth control (except, presumably, the rhythm method). So I wonder how many souls have been consigned to needlessly nasty, short, and brutish lives, in blighted Third World areas, because of insane papist dictates? Not even abortion, JUST BIRTH CONTROL. Betcha the number at least equals the amount of people they've actually helped.
Hey, if you want to believe she was all that and a bag of chips, go for it. I happen to think that most of the poor souls she helped were there in the first place because of this stupid notion that every sexual act must result in another human being. At any rate, true heroes don't run with murderous gangster scumbags like the Duvaliers, no matter what the cause.
Face it, Chief, like the Church itself, Mother T had two sets of rules -- one for her subjects, and another for her contributors. And that *is* hypocrisy.
100. AzureNW - July 30, 1999 - 9:05 PM PT
pellenilsson -
If you're going to salute your Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Heir of Isildur, Bearer of the Sword that was Broken and Forged Anew, I'll have to mention Sequoyah, inventor of a writing system for and preserver of the history of a distictive synthethic Amerind language of the New World.