1. IrvingSnodgrass - March 23, 1999 - 9:23 PM PT
Some very interesting topics relating to education have been raised in the Fraygrants' Corner thread today, as well as recently in other threads.
This thread is wide open for whatever interests you about education in the USA or the world: teacher pay, technology and education, comparative international education, or even education and world peace.
2. aldavis - March 23, 1999 - 9:31 PM PT
Well, this is fun! I've never been the first one in the door; a new experience and a nice one.
Teaching is more than a profession; it is an art, and to do it well, one must be an artist. Children are a joy, a challenge, a pain in the neck, and our future. It is my belief, after being in the system for eight years, that good teachers are not lost becuse the pay is too low. The system chews them out and spits them out.
Maybe the answer is to privitise education. Aren't parents the ones most concerned that their children get a good education? If that is the case, let them seek out what would work best for their kids.
I used to think the Public Schools did just fine, but I'm not sure anymore.
3. arkymalarky - March 23, 1999 - 10:11 PM PT
Let me see if I can do this before I get bumped out a third time.
I had written a post to the effect that I hope we don't go the privatization/voucher route again.
I'm interested in other education systems, what works and what doesn't. I'd like to know more about what Irv's doing, which he alluded to in FC.
We have an exchange student from Eastern Europe, and his knowledge and understanding well exceed that of my kids. I don't know that he's typical of his area, but he's well read and intellectually mature. It's hard to believe he's just a teenager. I've talked to him some about his background, but I'm anxious to talk more to him about his education.
4. aldavis - March 23, 1999 - 10:43 PM PT
arky
I spent one year in Canada my 3rd year in high school. They had much higher expectations than my high school in Calif. They taught toward a Provencial test giving at the end of the year, which one was expected to pass to go on to the next grade. Part of the problem with American education is that we are not quite sure what it is we expect to accomplish. Are we trying to instill knowledge in the student or we out to accomplish some other goal. I quit teaching in 1973, and I must say, there was much confusing about goals. Perhaps it is all different now.
5. arkymalarky - March 23, 1999 - 10:47 PM PT
I agree, and part of it is the cookie-cutter approach. People are too afraid to suggest that not everyone can learn the same amount at the same pace. I had a friend from Switzerland who said that they worked up to different levels in different areas at different paces. I don't know if it's like that now. She went to school there probably 15 years ago.
6. aldavis - March 23, 1999 - 10:50 PM PT
arky
I don't have much to add. I just want to see if I can be last on every thread. At least for a bit. My god, It's past midnight where you are.
7. arkymalarky - March 23, 1999 - 10:51 PM PT
Yes, it is. I have the good fortune to be sick on my spring break and couldn't sleep, but I'm gone. See y'all later!
8. aldavis - March 23, 1999 - 11:00 PM PT
arky
If I say good night and God bless, can I be last?
9. Adrianne - March 24, 1999 - 4:35 AM PT
Here's an interesting op/ed from Today's NY Times.
Cash strapped, schools will do anything they have to do, including inundating kids with more, more MORE! advertising and product placements
Right now, in MD, a principle is most likely getting fired for contracting with Dominos Pizza to sell to students in the lunchroom, with the school receiving 30% of the take. This is against school policy. The parents at this school are outraged - not at the competition to the school lunch program - but that the principle will likely be removed. They say they KNEW what was going on and supported it since the money went to hire more teachers and buy school supplies.
10. Adrianne - March 24, 1999 - 4:38 AM PT
Here's the MD story
11. MizPhys - March 24, 1999 - 4:45 AM PT
"... good teachers are not lost because the pay is too low. The system chews them up and spits them out."
I doubt that many teachers leave the profession because the pay is too low, but I'm sure that many people don't become teachers because the pay is too low. However, I think that more significant than low pay in discouraging potential teachers is the lack of respect given to teachers in our society. Back when I was a high school student trying to figure out what career to pursue, when I told my parents that I wanted to be a teacher, they dismissed the idea. They convinced me that I had much too bright a future to settle for teaching.
I got a degree in engineering, then I finally developed the courage to pursue a teaching career. Now that I have been teaching for 5 years, I have discovered that, as aldavis asserts, "the system chews them up and spits them out." New teachers are idealistic, motivated, and energetic. So many veteran teachers that I know are cynical, bitter, and worn out.
It seems to me that one of the primary causes of the erosion of a teachers enthusiasm is the lack of respect and appreciation that is shown to them by the community in which they work. Open a local newspaper on almost any day and you will find criticism, blame, and just plain venom directed toward teachers. "They are overpaid, underworked, greedy, lazy, and irresponsible. They soak the taxpayers and produce poor results. Why should these losers have job security that private sector employees don't have?" Don't these people ever think about the effect this has on the morale of teachers? Motivation is perhaps the most important attribute of an effective teacher. It seems that the community does everything it can to strip teachers of their motivation.
12. IrvingSnodgrass - March 24, 1999 - 5:49 AM PT
Lots of good comments here.
MizPhys:
It's not only the community which needs to respect and support teachers. Those in power over education also need to be supportive of the teachers' role.
I remember an experience I had a few years ago. I had been hired by a group of business people to help them set up a new private primary school here in Indonesia. They talked loftily of the vision for their school, to introduce innovative learning techniques in a multi-cultural setting. I helped them set up their school, designed a curriculum (using teaching materials from the USA, Australia and Singapore), and hired a wonderful team of Expatriate and Indonesian teachers. The owners of the school soon made it apparent that they regarded their wonderful facilities as their primary asset, and, although they had no background in education, insisted in getting involved in every level of what we were doing. They continually questioned my abilities and those of the teachers. When they told me that they considered the teachers expendable, I resigned. To me, the teachers were the only asset that really mattered, and the owners had no idea what an outstanding group of teachers they had. They may have had a vision for the school, and they invested a significant amount of money, but they had no idea what education is all about. By the end of the first year, all the teachers had quit, and the quality of the program was a distant memory.
It all goes back to the quote Msit posted in the FC thread about teaching being the hardest of all professions. It is very demanding, little-appreciated, and not for everyone. But the personal rewards (if not financial) for doing the job well are hard to equal in any other profession.
13. uzmakk - March 24, 1999 - 6:05 AM PT
I have two sons, and ofcourse am concerned about their education.Much is done at home simply talking about interesting things. Questions I don't know the answers to are immediately looked up. Enough on that for now.
wrt the system chewing up and spitting out good teachers:
I absolutely believe this to be true. I believe I could be a good teacher but I absolutely could not tolerate the incredible bureaucracy that specifies my every move, wrt to both curriculum and technique. School is a sausage factory and turkey farm, a 12 year holding pattern for too, too many kids. I have quite a bit more to say on this subject but no more time this morning. Chow.
14. Msivorytower - March 24, 1999 - 6:21 AM PT
"... good teachers are not lost because the pay is too low. The system chews them up and spits them out."
Oh I get so mad when I see this sort of thing. What makes you think teachers are NOT motivated by money? Now, I would be the first to say that teachers must love their work to remain in the profession, to enter into it in the first place, but the low wages for the work demanded creates a disincentive to stay in the field.
Teacher attrition in the first 3 years is very high, up towards 25%, it slows down as years of experience in the profession increases, but those with skills most easily transferable to the private sector (read math and science teachers) continue to leave in the highest numbers regardless of experience. This tells us that when alternative employment is readily available, at higher pay, teachers are hard to retain.
There are many people who should not be in the classroom, unfortunately, these are often the individuals who are the LAST to leave because they have little alternative employment opportunities at similar or higher pay levels. And unfortunately, controlling teacher quality wrt training and certification is almost impossible. States change certification requirements only to create loopholes around them, like alternative certification programs, or district teaching credentials and the like. Not only that, many small regional state schools (small, struggling private ones, too) churn out teachers at the drop of a hat because these are 'cash cow' programs for many instituions and there are few incentives to provide high quality training (costs rise but there is no distinction between teachers once certified).
So, the problem with teacher quality is varied and complex, but the role of low salaries is central to the kind of labor attracted to, and retained in the field.
15. MizPhys - March 24, 1999 - 6:50 AM PT
Ms IT
You are undoubtedly correct wrt monetary motivation. I was generalizing *my* motivations. I could have earned more money as an engineer than as a teacher, but it was more important to me to have a job that I feel is meaningful and that I enjoy enough to want to get out of bed for each morning. I also have the luxury of having a husband who earns a good salary, but I'm sure that my situation is the exception rather than the rule.
16. phillipdavid - March 24, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
Uzmakk,
"wrt the system chewing up and spitting out good teachers:
I absolutely believe this to be true. I believe I could be a
good teacher but I absolutely could not tolerate the
incredible bureaucracy that specifies my every move, wrt
to both curriculum and technique."
In my short tenure as a public school teacher, I have not seen the odious bureacracy you speak of. I have lots of freedom to acomplish what I am paid to do in the manner I think best.
We have academic and performance (skill) standards in my state (this year's tenth graders are the first class to be held accountable to them). There are certain skills my kids need to prove themselves proficient in, and there are the district's Common Curriculum Goals that I am supposed to teach, but nobody looks over my shoulder at my every move, and I am allowed to accomplish my goals with whatever teachnique I think best.
There are rather tedious aspects of bureaucracy to deal with -- e.g., I must accumulate a certain number of hours of professional development credits each year at my own expense to maintain my lisence, and the financial aspects of school budgets (what I am allowed to spend on classroom supplies, textbook purchases, etc)that are often infuriating -- but not within the classroom. There I am allowed a lot of flexibility to do what I think best.
17. phillipdavid - March 24, 1999 - 7:45 AM PT
aldavis,
" Part of the problem with American
education is that we are not quite sure what it is we
expect to accomplish. Are we trying to instill knowledge
in the student or we out to accomplish some other goal."
We attempt to help the students develop basic skills in writing, reading, math, speaking, and analysis. We also try to instill certain knowledge in the core areas of science, health, social sciences, and technology. Standards are the answer to your question, imo. Specific, realistic standards toward which a student's progress can be measured with good assessment teachniques is the key, imo.
For example, take a look at Oregon's standards in Social Studies. If a student can meet these benchmarks, then the school has done its job, imo, and all parties -- students, parents, teachers, universties, employers -- will have confidence in the educational system.
18. uzmakk - March 24, 1999 - 3:37 PM PT
PhillipDavid Message #16:
Aren't your text books specified? Don't you have a standard lesson plan you are tied to? Mr. King, a very popular 6th grade teacher that both my sons had comes to mind to make me a liar. From what they described, class was a flow of conciousness experience. Sorry, I have so little time PD. Perhaps I will post again in the morning.
19. arkymalarky - March 24, 1999 - 4:28 PM PT
I selected my own textbooks, and they were fairly expensive. I have a lot of academic freedom, too, and we're judged by the results in terms of student performance on national test scores, evidence of skills mastery, etc. Believe it or not, some systems reprimand teachers for expecting too much from their students and generally show little support for actually educating the students and raising their performance. It really makes a lot of difference when teachers are treated as the professionals they're supposed to be, and that treatment includes both a trust in them to do a good job without unnecessary constraints and a constant overseer, and good salaries.
20. elliot803 - March 24, 1999 - 4:46 PM PT
It seems that funding disparities between different school districts within a state is a pretty hot issue nationally. Because public schools are traditionally funded by property taxes, schools in wealthy districts are much better funded than schools in poor districts. This has been a huge issue in Arizona over the last few years, and the state government has finally acted to make funding more equitable across districts, but only after having its arm twisted by the Arizona Supreme Court. I know it's also been a big issue in other states. GlendaJean just entered a post in Suggestions about the situation in Texas.
Of course, this is a classic example of wealth redistribution, and so the "libertarians" amoung us should be vigorously opposed to it.
21. aldavis - March 24, 1999 - 5:44 PM PT
Care must be taken when talking about rich and poor school districts. It can get very complecated. For example, one of the richest school districts in Calif. was at one time Emeryville, a heavily industrialized area next to Oakland. The student body was middle to lower middle class, but the tax base was enormous.
Another example was Cupertino, which had in its tax base Lockheed. It also had a high % of minority students and recieved both State and Federal money. Let me state, that was back in the '70's and things may be different today. Would there be some agreement that public education once had higher standards? I quit teaching in '73 with little or no idea what I would do to earn money. I went into Real Estate and made very good money, but I would have sold Fuller Brushes door to door if I had to. I had great freedom in the classroom, but unless one has been in the mix, one has no idea what trying to be an effective teacher takes out of you.
MIT
You are certainly right that teacher's pay would or might go a long way toward getting and keeping good teachers. It isn't the money, per. se., but the respect that goes along with high earning. I taught in an upper middle class area where students drove better cars than most teachers. They thought that a medium income (this was in the early '70's) was $50,000. They use to make jokes about the little houses down on the flatland. If their teachers drove up in a big Cad. they might have a more elevated opinion.
22. arkymalarky - March 24, 1999 - 6:21 PM PT
Elliot,
Money is the Sword of Damocles which hangs above schools like mine. Instead of making funding more equitable, the state has changed the entire system so that some schools are in serious financial binds. We know that consolidation with another district is always a possibility as the funding crunch increases year to year. Our superintendent harps on it, but he has to.
Al,
"The student body was middle to lower middle class, but the tax base was enormous."
There's been some of that here, especially where the nuclear plant is in Russelville.
As far as standards, they've improved considerably since I began teaching, when they were essentially nonexistent. When I was in high school I received a decent education, but it would be much better in the same school today, and more attention is paid to students who don't automatically excel.
I also agree with your remarks to Msit. Does this mean I'm more libertarian than I think or that you're more liberal than you think? I'm betting the latter.
23. aldavis - March 24, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
arky
Don't bet the whole farm. The main point is that politics is a small part of our life. The really important things in life are personal
24. arkymalarky - March 24, 1999 - 6:33 PM PT
But, Al, education is very important and its success depends on government funds and political support. I've seen lots of kids come from modest backgrounds and do well because of the educational opportunities they were given, and society benefits every time that happens.
25. DanDillon - March 24, 1999 - 7:09 PM PT
Nice to have an Education thread again. (Thanks, Irv.)
arky Message #19,
"[S]ome systems reprimand teachers for expecting too much from their students."
Could you offer an example of this egregious behavior? And just how could such a notion distort and corrupt "some systems" in the first place?
26. arkymalarky - March 24, 1999 - 7:47 PM PT
Dan,
I don't have studies or anything, but I have heard of teachers being reprimanded for having too many low grades, etc. I wasn't referring to extremes. Some teachers obviously do raise the level of difficulty beyond what many of their students could reasonably be expected to achieve. But of course, about anything can happen in any given school district. I have a friend who was brought before the school board because parents had complained that she taught chemistry like a college prep class. Well, duh!
27. phillipdavid - March 24, 1999 - 9:39 PM PT
"and more attention is paid to students who don't
automatically excel."
The hardest part of teaching is dealing with large numbers of kids with "special needs." Individual Education Plans abound in my school, as do 504 plans, and it is not unusual for a teacher to be expected to employ numerous techniques for various students each day for the same lesson-- that is, address the specific individual needs of several (or many) different students while trying to teach a normal lesson to the rest of the class. This is extremely difficult to do .
28. DanDillon - March 25, 1999 - 4:51 AM PT
arky,
There's not a thing wrong with having high (but not unrealistic) expectations of one's students. In fact, studies tell us that the higher the expectations, the better the performance. So, do you frown upon your chem teacher's friend's practice? (I'm not trying to antangonize you here; I'm genuinely curious.)
pd,
You bring up the topic of IEPs, and I'd like to discuss this at some point in the future, along with mainstreaming. Just now, I don't have the time, though. I'm off to school!
29. uzmakk - March 25, 1999 - 5:39 AM PT
Heard John Taylor Gatto, NYState teacher of the year on local talk radio. Radical stuff. Wish I had more time to post. He was given worse and worse classes and produced the same excellent results regardless of the raw matericial with which he started. He has written a book or two which appear in my right wing libertarian book catalogs.
MsIT: I think my school district is of a type. The problems of education are local , but as i say, I am sure that the situation I descibe appears elsewhere. There are no highpaying jobs in my area except for professional(DR. , Lawyer and management postitions at the power Co. and the light industrial plants in the area.) Teachers form a kind of elite in this area, and money is definitely THE motivating factor. Entry into the system is a tightly controlled political process and the pay is good, damn good. There are plenty of teachers not worth a rats ass. And a good number of good ones. They all make good money, however. I have not examined teaching at the HS level yet. All for now.
30. arkymalarky - March 25, 1999 - 6:30 AM PT
Nonono, Dan. I believe in high expectations and I have them for my own students. I thought it clear from my post that I consider her having been questioned for teaching a college prep class like a college prep class silly.
PD,
I agree with Dan, that ieps is an aspect of teaching I'd like to see discussed. I have had all kinds of kids, and made adjustments where necessary, but a good special education program in a school makes sure that all kids who fall under the "special needs" category are working to their very highest potential.
One of my most rewarding experiences as a teacher was in working with an 11th grade boy whom I'd taught as a 9th grader and who carried a big chip on his shoulder and disliked school and teachers. He was a special ed student, but it became apparent to me that his comprehension was actually very good when he began answering discussion questions in class that showed a great deal of insight. I had hardly gotten anything but attitude out of him as a 9th grader. He had difficulty writing and was embarrassed (I think--others may have thought it was ignorance or stubbornness) to express himself, but he just couldn't resist, he found history so interesting. I quit modifying his tests, and I never overtly encouraged him, because from having had him in the past I was pretty sure that special attention would clam him right back up. I just treated his participation as I would any other student's, which in 11th grade is pretty much as you'd treat an adult's input. He began answering the essay questions on tests and I graded strictly on content, and he ended up with an A, completely without modification.
He dropped out of school the next year and is now married with a couple of kids, living in a trailer.
31. msivorytower - March 25, 1999 - 8:34 AM PT
"There are no highpaying jobs in my area except for professional..."
Well, teachers are professionals, so this argument doesn't wash with me. Nor does the notion that there are good and bad teachers, since there are good and bad workers in every occupation and profession.
However, if we eliminated single salary schedules, and allowed teachers to be rewarded based on field of specialty and then on merit (objectively measured and peer reviewed), then the longevity of poor teachers in the field would be much shorter, and their presence would be kept to a minimum (as is the case in many organizations).
My main criticism is that incompetent teachers have often been the ones to climb up the administrative ladder (all those coaches, you know), and are now everywhere to be found running schools. Until this crop of managers works its way out of the system, I don't hold much hope for serious reform.
32. arkymalarky - March 25, 1999 - 8:40 AM PT
Another thing that bugs me is teachers who play the system and move up administratively or on to state dept jobs. They were incompetent or lazy in the classroom, but were power dressers and knew how to gladhand and impress the administration. Their teaching techniques often were flashy on the surface, but the substance of what the kids were being taught was not there. These same people go on to direct new programs from the state ed depts which are about as substantive and effective as what they were doing in the classrooms.
33. uzmakk - March 25, 1999 - 10:17 AM PT
MsIT:
Absolutely. Bangaroni. Adminestration. Oh, but look how pervasive the problem is. It extends all the way to Nike commercials and into the minds of the mummies and the daddies.
34. DanDillon - March 26, 1999 - 4:44 AM PT
arky Message #30,
Thanks for the clarification. I suspected that your stance was reasonable....
MSit,
Why should field of specialty have a bearing on one's salary? Do you mean to say that a history teacher ought to make more (or less) than a biology tecaher? Or were you referring more to the history teacher and, say, the coach? I think your ideas are highly cogent, btw.
35. MizPhys - March 26, 1999 - 5:13 AM PT
Dan
One could argue that in order to attract and retain the best teachers in a particular subject area, schools must pay salaries that are comparable or superior to those that that can be earned in other jobs. Someone with a degree in physics could command a higher salary in another job than someone with a degree in history.
36. Philistine - March 26, 1999 - 6:55 AM PT
Isn't it great to know that PepsiCo shows such concern for the children? Certainly we should do as they say, as they have nothing but the kids' best interests at heart. And think of all the money schools could save by allowing them to provide such excellent educational materials!
37. msivorytower - March 26, 1999 - 8:28 AM PT
Dan
I see that MizPhys has answered your question. It is a matter of the demand for some skills versus others. History teachers may be very wonderful, but they can be had cheap. Math teachers may be mediocre, but they are expensive nonetheless.
The reason we have surpluses or shortages across various fields is directly related to the market demand for those skills in other occupations and jobs. The single salary schedule is what we call a barrier to equilibrium in the teacher labor market because it artifically sets salaries for teachers across fields rather than allowing them to be set by market demand.
38. marshame - March 26, 1999 - 12:25 PM PT
"The system chews them up and spits them out."
This cliche can also be applied to:
Doctors
Police officers
Social workers
Nurses
Fire Fighters
You get the idea.
In my city, we're having trouble getting the fire fighters to keep their paramedic certifications. Many don't want to be paramedics anymore, because when they were trained, they thought they'd be doing interesting, critically needed, vital services. Instead they're faced with old people who can't get off the toilet, drunks, bloody accidents where they continuously worry about AIDS exposure, etc.
Fire fighters get paid about the same as teachers. And there are more people lined up to fill every fire fighter job than there are teaching jobs.
My point being: burnout and disillusion are hardly limited to teachers.
39. marshame - March 26, 1999 - 12:29 PM PT
Another benefit teachers have that the rest of us don't have is the luxury of "shipping off" their crop of students every year. No matter how awful a student or dreadful his parents, 9 months later and he's gone, and you've got a new crop of students to deal with. Also, my teacher buddies who all (3 of them) happen to be middle school teachers, also rejoice that they only have to have theses kids one hour a day.
Compare that to dealing with the same difficult people (disgruntled employees, department heads with agendas, etc.) year in and year out.
40. vonKreedon - March 26, 1999 - 12:30 PM PT
Marsha - Doctors? Why did you include them in your list? Other than doctors I would agree that each occupation in the list is undervalued by our society, as are teachers.
41. marshame - March 26, 1999 - 12:34 PM PT
VK
I have heard doctors gripe about spending years and years and years getting equipped to enter their profession and then being so restricted by insurance companies, managed care, business demands of a practice, etc. that they wonder why they ever decided to become a physician in the first place. It seems to them that treated patients winds up being in last place in their time commitments.
42. vonKreedon - March 26, 1999 - 12:35 PM PT
Oh yeah, teachers have it easy, only have to deal with the same individuals for one hour a day and after having spent 9 months establishing a relationship with them they get to start over with a new set of individuals. That must be why we have such a glut of teachers, eh?
Have you ever taught? Ever gone through the preparation before hand, then stood in front of a group of people who largely don't want to be there listening to you? Ever do this for seven hours a day five days a week? I much prefer my office and the occasional run in with disgruntled co-worker, much less sapping.
43. marshame - March 26, 1999 - 12:38 PM PT
My friends teach the same lesson plans year after year. So the hours of preparation were only in the beginning.
As for standing up and talking to people who don't want to be there, yeah, I have some experience with that.
44. vonKreedon - March 26, 1999 - 12:40 PM PT
Marsha - I have to say that your friends sound like the people who give teachers a bum rap. I better understand you perception of teachers.
45. vonKreedon - March 26, 1999 - 12:40 PM PT
you perception=YOUR perception
46. FreetoChoose - March 26, 1999 - 12:45 PM PT
Philistine
I don't understand your post.
I don't see anything in the link hinting at the position of Pepsico.
What do you mean, “we should do as they say”? What do “they” say?
What “excellent educational materials” are you referring to?
47. marshame - March 26, 1999 - 12:46 PM PT
VK
They're very experienced, masters degreed teachers in a rich school district. I'm sure they're just fine as teachers, but they don't have unrealistic expectations (at least not anymore.) A couple of things I've noticed about them:
1. They are extremely opposed to Gov Bush's proposal to end social promotion.
2. They are philosophical about the NEA. Even though they may disagree, they pay their dues and go along.
3. They assign all blame to parents. They generally feel that teachers are far better equipped and motivated to guide and direct children than parents are.
4. Teaching middle school kids for more than 10 years can be dangerous to your mental health. These dames can be daffy!
48. ChristiPeters - March 26, 1999 - 12:55 PM PT
I have taught second graders and sixth graders as a classroom consultant for Junior Achievement. I have taught seventh graders and eigth graders as a volunteer during Engineering Week. In each case, I'm talking about maximum one hour sessions for five or six sessions.
I have really enjoyed doing it.
I have also thanked God I didn't have to do it all day, five days a week. The closest I have come to that was when I was teaching horseback riding full time. Except for a few who were taking lessons for status reasons, I was teaching people who were happy and eager to learn all I could teach them and paying big bucks for it as well. Definitely a different kind of situation than what the average public school teacher faces much of the time.
My hat's off to all the teachers in the world. You have my respect and undying gratitude. I know I couldn't do it.
(This year, my daughter's teachers are teaching her much more than I remember learning in fifth grade - both in breadth and depth. They are doing it in such a way that she LIKES it and is eager to go off to school every day. GOD! I love them!)
49. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 1:13 PM PT
Marshame,
The analogy of kids to colleagues is stupid. We have colleagues we work with daily, along with supervisors, just like everyone else. Add parents and kids to that list rather than putting them in place of it. I'm sorry, but the teachers you know don't sound like the type I'd want teaching my children. I don't think your list of their opinions is very revealing, though, without any explanation and background to go along with it.
FWIW, I love my kids and have never felt happy to get rid of them at the end of the year. I cry every time a senior class graduates and I love for them to come visit and keep me up on how they're doing.
50. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 1:19 PM PT
I've been in high school the past several years and PD could say more about this than I, but middle school students are possibly the most fun but also the most challenging group to teach. They're sharp and inquisitive, in the midst of one of the most important transitions of their lives, and they're right at the point where they will make choices which will affect them socially and academically for years to come. One fifty minute session, much less six in a day, really requires a great deal of energy, and the best middle school teachers without exception are those with a great deal of enthusiasm, creativity, and appreciation for their students and their subjects.
51. ChristiPeters - March 26, 1999 - 1:35 PM PT
When I talked to the 7th and 8th graders this year for Engineering Week, I used Furby to get them thinking about Engineering. I took a Furby in, with foils of the innards and info on the toy's engineering. However, I didn't just put them up and go "see".
I pointed out each feature of the toy, then said, "ok, you are the Engineer. What do you need to make this thing do --- ?"
Then we talked about what the actual toy used to do --- , and whether this was better, worse, or no diff from their suggestions from the standpoints of reliability and cost.
They were good! Bright, informed, articulate, and fun!
I loved it, but by the end of the hour, I sure was tired!
52. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 1:41 PM PT
"I loved it, but by the end of the hour, I sure was tired!"
Exactly. My husband had 7th graders the last period of the day his first year of teaching and he'd come home worn out but full of fun stories. Marshame mentioned the great gifts teachers get from their students (certainly beats that boring old Christmas bonus everyone else gets!). That class of my husband's gave him a Christmas card, and inside, glued to a piece of yarn so it could serve as a necklace, was a tooth, complete with brace.
53. ChristiPeters - March 26, 1999 - 2:50 PM PT
arky - LOL! You would maybe expect teeth from earlier grades when all the kiddos are losing them, but not 7th grade!
(Do people really get Christmas bonuses? We get a bonus early in the year tied to performance contracts for the previous year, and sometimes profit sharing, but a bonus just 'cause it's Christmas!)
At any rate, I will be the first to admit that $$$ is the main reason I'm an Engineer rather than a teacher. I enjoyed teaching riding and doing volunteer assistance at the local elementary school so much that I *did* consider teaching. In the end it came down to the $$. I know of three former teachers in my division who left teaching because of the pay, two are in marketing and one is in planning.
54. phillipdavid - March 26, 1999 - 3:41 PM PT
marshame,
I have the same group of kids for much longer than 1 hour a day. I teach "block" classes that integrate Language Arts (writing), Literature (reading), Speech (presentation), and US History (thinking and study-skills), so I have the same kids in class for 2 1/2 hours.
What arky says is true -- having the kids move on after a year is a source of great sadness. Spending 2 1/2 hours a day developing a relationship with the students, and then having them dissappear from your life is emotionally difficult, not easy; a source of sadness, not pleasure.
I feel sorry for your friends if they "rejoice" at only having to spend one hour a day with their students. That must mean they get groups of awful kids, of groups of kids whose parents did a poor job with them so far which makes their behavior, perspectives and values very hard to be with. My school is full of such kids too, but I have carved out a position in the school whereby about 2/3 of the kids I deal are mostly the smarter-than-average students. And even though these kids present very difficult behavior dynamics to deal with, they are maleable, respectful of intelligence, and quite fun to be with. I actually look forward to seeing them each day because they so much fun.
55. aldavis - March 26, 1999 - 3:43 PM PT
arky
If all the teachers were like you, I would have a completely defferent attitude toward public education. At one time I think most teachers were very dedicated. While I was not a good student my first two years of high school, it was not the fault of the teachers, most of whom I still remember fondly.
On another subject, you posted on the political thread about why do people care who does this and who does that. I really agree with everything you said, except for abortion. While I don't want to see government involved with the subject, I hate the idea of abortion as a method of birth control. Life and children are such precious commodities that I hate thinking about it. I must admit my reasons are personal, and since I am easily identifiable, I can't talk in specifics.
One who has never taught children has no idea what the task is. Some can handleit, some cannot.
56. phillipdavid - March 26, 1999 - 3:49 PM PT
Why I Love Teaching:
I spend my day with kids who are hormonally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, socially, and personally excited! They are excited about life in a joyful way that is possible only when so much of life is so
new.
They quibble, argue, sit in rapt attention, squibble like itchy frogs, bound through the class like a cannonball express, light up with joy, tumult into depths of despair, never shut up, never stop asking questions, and never stop soaking up life like a plant soaking up sunshine.
They are disruly, inept, brave, shy, disorganized, spaced out, curious, defiant, difficult, bold, aware, gifted, maleable, devious, spurious, engaging, quick to smile and quick to laugh.
They are mirrors who reflect back the energy I put out, and they are a source of what make life fun, engaging, challenging, and joyful.
They are 13 and 14 year old 8th graders.
Most people offer me their sympathy when I tell them what I do. I just smile because I have done other jobs and none infused life and spirit into my soul in the way teaching these 8th graders has. And none was as directly and as clearly meaningful; nothing else ever allowed me to have as much impact on making this a better world to live in.
Winning the lottery would only mean that I drive a nicer car to work each morning and travel more during vacations. You couldn't pay me enough money to stop.
(I originally wrote this in Salon Table Talk in July of 1997, almost two years ago. I still feel the same way today.)
57. aldavis - March 26, 1999 - 4:01 PM PT
phillipdavid
You are obviously one of the blessed. In some ways I loved teaching, and I can share some of your feelings. Unfortunately for me, I was one of the ones who could not handle it. I did not leave teaching to make more money, though I have made much more since. Money is not where satisfaction lies, and when you arrive at true adulthood, you know that.
Once again, that is not to say, as MIT has pointed out that there is no relationship between hireing and keeping good teachers is irrelevent to pay. This society values those who are high earners, wheather right or wrong. You obviously get your feelings of self worth from what you do, and that is great. If this society valued teachers more and paid them comnensurate with their value, that would be a good thing, IMHO.
58. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 4:16 PM PT
Hahaha! Great description of the job, PD! If I won the lottery I might go to a half-day.;-)
The last crop of 8th graders I taught graduated last year, and we still talked fondly about things that happened in my classroom back then.
Thank you, Al.
I truly believe after working in different districts and under quite a few admistrators that the administration is the key to a successful school. They set the tone with teachers, students, parents, and the community. That's why it's such a tragedy that school administrators are not held more accountable for what their schools achieve. In a corporation, these folks would be out on their ears if the product was inadequate and the business didn't operate efficiently. Almost every good teacher I've known who has burned out did so more because of the lack of support they got than because of the kids themselves. I'm not talking about those who left the profession for more money, but those who truly could not endure the job anymore. I got close to that myself at one time--not because of a lack of support but because I was being overloaded. I simply told my principal there were some extracurricular things that were going to have to be delegated to someone else whose schedule was less full, and he happily did it. It made a world of difference.
On abortion, it's a complicated issue and I would hate to think anyone believed it was an acceptable method of birth control. I certainly understand and agree with your feelings about it.
59. aldavis - March 26, 1999 - 4:28 PM PT
arky
One of the reasons I burned out after eight years was I had a student load of 185 while other English teachers had less than 100 because the kids would not sign for those classes unless forced. We had open enrollment. Also, the Special Ed. teacher would talk me into taking any of his students on the grade level i was teaching. Then a counselor would come and say, you just have to take this kid, he won't work in this other class. Kids were comming to me with emotional problems and I could not deal with it. One girl came to me about a friend of hers whose father was molesting her. I told her to go see the dean of girls. I don't know the final result, but it haunted me that she might have been talking about herself and I failed her. It still haunts me. Unless one has been in these situations, he/she has no idea what it is like. It ain't like the movies.
It looks as if you are over the hump dealing with the emotional aspect of teaching; just keep up the good work. You are going straight to heaven, but not for a long time.
60. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 4:44 PM PT
Haha. I've got a lot of faults to cover for, Al. I don't know if teaching will be enough to get me through those pearly gates.;-)
185 kids is inexcusable. One year, my nightmare year, I had 170. I was teaching six different social studies classes which I had never taught before, since I had previously only taught English; I had no preparation period, I was jr. class sponsor, annual sponsor, and I got married that year (it was planned before the school year began). By spring I was pregnant. That's what did it for me--it was either quit the profession or tell them that this would not cut it. I had not one minute to prepare for classes. I brought home sacks full of papers and had piles of reading and studying to do every evening since I hadn't had any of the relevant courses in several years.
Even so, my situation sounds like it pales in comparison to yours. I feel for you about your concern over that student. One aspect of teaching is the faces that haunt you and the questions about whether you did the right thing or everything you could for a suffering student. It's very unfair for an administration to put so much on you. You can't possibly spread yourself over 185 kids. The kids must have had a lot of regard for you to confide in you. Too many kids have literally nowhere to turn but to school and their teachers.
61. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 4:45 PM PT
BTW, that was in a different system from where I work now.
62. aldavis - March 26, 1999 - 5:08 PM PT
arky
My first year of teaching I had six classes of freshmen and no prep. That went on for two years, when I moved back to the S.F. Bay
Area and taught in an upper middle class school. In some ways it was easy, only five classes and two preps. The kids were great, very motivated, it some cases pushed too hard by their parents. I lasted six years. I always made it a point to learn the students names as fast as I could. Once I had a student compliment me because i knew all the names, and this was late in the year. She said she had teachers that still refered to her as the girl in the third row. There were many dedicated teachers, but i got so I hated the time servers who made it obvious that the students were the enemy.
I wonder if Phillip David teaches in a public or private school. He sounds a bit like Evie's granddaughter, Rita Rose's,teacher in private school in Berkeley.
A college prof. would have had awk all over that last sentence
63. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 5:18 PM PT
He's in a public school.
64. aldavis - March 26, 1999 - 5:23 PM PT
phillipdavid
Arky says you teach in a public school, and that makes me admire you even more.
65. phillipdavid - March 26, 1999 - 6:41 PM PT
aldavis,
PE once said I hadn't been in it long (this is my sixth year) enough to become jaded. If I ever do, those kids better watch out!
I have a positve outlook and perspective because I deal mostly with students who can read, write and think. If I had to teach kids with low skills, low abilities, bad attitudes and very limited perspectives and hopes, I wouldn't like my job as much.
I am very successful working with smart kids, and I work in a building where the other teachers prefer not to work with the smart (read smart-aleck) kids because they are much more difficult to be with on a personal level. Thus, my particular talents match up very well with the job I have.
If I had to worry about addressing the requirements of 15 different IEPs in each class every day, as some teachers in my building do, my frustration level would skyrocket. The difference between A) having to teach the kids how to write a decent paragraph, of understanding the abstract concept of a constitution, of understanding simple written words and B) teaching kids how to use descriptive similies and footnote sources, analyse and evaluate the constituion, and how to relate the ideas in a historical novel to the reality of today is monumental. I get to do the latter most of the time, which makes all the difference in the world for me.
I am a strong supporter of academic standards in primary and secondary schools.
66. DanDillon - March 26, 1999 - 6:58 PM PT
pd,
I knew there was a reason I liked you all this time.
67. aldavis - March 26, 1999 - 7:05 PM PT
phillipdavid
One thing I wish teachers would teach is how to distinquish between a statement of fact and a statement of opinion. It would help make their analyis of events more meaningful.
68. arkymalarky - March 26, 1999 - 7:09 PM PT
"If I had to teach kids with low skills, low abilities, bad attitudes and very limited perspectives and hopes, I wouldn't like my job as much."
I'm lucky to work with a mix, but I have mostly the upper group. I have advanced English classes and two social studies classes which have all types of kids. We have very good discipline, though (not rigid at all--just consistent), and that really helps. At least teachers who have the challenging ones know that they will have support and students will not be permitted to be abusive or disrespectful. If teachers work to maintain good discipline the administration will back them.
"I am a strong supporter of academic standards in primary and secondary schools."
Absolutely. AR is really beginning to put an emphasis on this with a new statewide program, and if they will just follow through it should help. Our school has already been doing a lot of work in this area and we've seen really good results.
69. IrvingSnodgrass - March 26, 1999 - 8:12 PM PT
PD:
My son is a 13-year old 8th grader, and your Message #56 describes him perfectly. I wish he could have you for a teacher.
70. DanDillon - March 27, 1999 - 6:44 AM PT
I have three junior English classes, all the same track or level or whatever you wanna call it (another topic we can discuss). And I have two senior English classes, one honors and one AP. I enjoy each of them in their way, and I'm fairly certain I get more fulfillment from teaching these upper grades than I do from teaching frosh and soph classes. Of course, I'm not wholly predisposed to any one age group or ability level, but my own scholarship, sense of humor, level of diction, etc. jibe more closely with the older kids.
What I enjoy most about about the range of students I do have is the variation in critical and analytical thinking among them. Such a broad scope there. Best of all, though, is when one student sees the point (a point, any point) and explains it to his somewhat bewildered peer. When that second students gets it, it's almost always a better feeling than if I were to have explained it myself. After all, the origin of the knowledge shared stretches way way back. Who can lay claim to it anyway?
71. Greystoke - March 27, 1999 - 7:02 AM PT
Gov. Ventura telling teenagers about the value of a good education:
"GOLDEN VALLEY, Minn. (AP) — Some academically-challenged athletes shouldn't have to attend classes in order to play college sports, Gov. Jesse Ventura said.
Ventura's comments were aired Friday from an interview with a young reporter for KARE-TV's "Whatever,'' a show aimed at teen-agers. The interview was conducted after allegations broke about academic misconduct in the University of Minnesota men's basketball program.
"My view is, to eliminate this cheating, or the possibility of it, why not let kids go to college and just be athletes while they're there?'' Ventura said. "No classes. Let them simply play.
"Then when they're done, if the don't make it in the NFL, if they don't make it in the NBA, if they don't make it in pro baseball, whatever it might be, then give them their scholarship.''
In fact, the former professional wrestler said, colleges should just accept that some students were never meant to study.
"How many great athletes simply aren't smart? But why shouldn't they have the chance to compete?'' he said.
The governor said his own talents aren't being sufficiently rewarded.
"I get paid $120,000 a year,'' he said. "What do you think I'd be paid if I was with a $12 billion corporation in the private sector? I'd be making $120,000 a month, and that wouldn't even count stock options.'' "
72. PsychProf - March 27, 1999 - 7:03 AM PT
Too Hard
73. IrvingSnodgrass - March 27, 1999 - 7:10 AM PT
Greystoke:
"I get paid $120,000 a year,'' he said. "What do you think I'd be paid if I was with a $12 billion corporation in the private sector? I'd be making $120,000 a month, and that wouldn't even count stock options.'"
Yeah, I understand there's a serious labor shortage in the 'CEO of $12 Billion Corporation' field. They'd even hire a former professional wrestler, they're so hard up.
74. Greystoke - March 27, 1999 - 7:13 AM PT
Irving
Yes, but how many people have experience as a Navy SEAL, wrestler, radio personality, AND governor. See, he's one of a kind ......
Thank God.
75. arkymalarky - March 27, 1999 - 8:52 AM PT
Dan Message #70,
Very well put and your last paragraph is right on.
The most annoying thing I've ever heard as a teacher is "that's boring" (Not "you're boring"--that doesn't bother me [kidding!];-)). I must say I rarely ever hear it once students get into reading and discussing something we're working on. They're capable of a lot more thought and understanding than they're often given credit for, and AP and honors courses are really beginning to catch on in schools and challenge students, building their interest. I'm actually very encouraged about the current trends in education.
I suspected and Greystoke confirmed that Ventura is a complete idiot. If this is what Libertarians have to offer, then thanks but no thanks.
76. CharlieL - March 29, 1999 - 1:09 PM PT
William Raspberry in today's Washington Post.
Comments?
77. ChristiPeters - March 29, 1999 - 3:07 PM PT
Message #71 -
My older brother coached football at a small college that did not give *any* athletic scholarships. The students were there for an education. If they wanted to play sports as well, fine. I think this is the way to go.
When I have said this in conversation before, I've been immediately jumped on with "sports scholarships are the only way some kids can afford to go to college." Well, I look at how much money goes to sports arenas, equipment, coaching staff, uniforms, buses, and sports scholarships and wonder why that same money can't be used for needs-based or academic scholarships.
Realistically speaking, however, I know that college athletics are too much a part of our cultural landscape to go away now. So I'll settle for required minimum GPA to play, cracking down hard on all cheating, and accept that this is and always will be a far from perfect life.
78. ChristiPeters - March 29, 1999 - 3:10 PM PT
Class size.
It has not escaped my notice that in the last few years, when I have been very pleased with the quality of my daughter's education, the largest class was 22 students.
I am all for a maximum class-size of 20.
79. ChristiPeters - March 29, 1999 - 3:11 PM PT
Message #76
I argued in the last education thread that higher standards in Education College Programs and better preparation for teaching was absolutely essential to improve the quality of education.
80. DanDillon - March 29, 1999 - 5:44 PM PT
I wish I had more time to spend in this thread. The comments have been excellent, and I enjoy learning about everyone's experiences, opinions, and philosophies. The lot of you reassure me that all is not lost when it comes to passionately reasoned teaching.
81. vonKreedon - March 29, 1999 - 6:35 PM PT
I work as a training program manager, I worked for several years as a technical trainer. The interesting thing is that I found that, in industry, one can insist on small class sizes with little push-back. People consider it a favor when I agree to teach 25 people. One of the two main training orgs in my company has a limit of 12 people! Oy!
82. CharlieL - March 29, 1999 - 8:33 PM PT
We limit all our technical training courses to 14 people or less, and we prefer 8-10 students in a class.
83. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 8:42 PM PT
I respect no single lot of correspondents in this forum more than you folks, teachers all. Had I told you so? Yes, even more than the baying Internationalists.
84. RyckNelson - March 29, 1999 - 8:55 PM PT
May I second that Scott?
Though I bring humble offerings. This is most inspiring especially reading Message #56. I also second Irv Message #69 for my 14 year old 8th grade daughter.
85. AuNaturel - March 29, 1999 - 9:06 PM PT
Jesse is absolutely correct. You wanna play football? Fine. Football is now your major and minor.
College athletics are professional sports internships. A vast subsidy of the NFL, NBA and so on. Admit it and stop lying to yourself. These kids are pros and play for millions of dollars. The colleges get their cuts immediately in adverstising revenue, ticket sales and alumni contributions. The players get theirs by getting a shot at being drafted. Since the ONLY practical way to make the NBA is by going to college, Jesse is absolutely correct.
It makes as much sense to demand NBA wanna-bes take English Lit as it does to require English Lit majors to run three miles a day and do a hundred pushups. That's not libertarian thinking, that's honest thinking. If I had my druthers there would be no sports at college whatsoever and the NBA, NFL, et al, would run minor leagues to develop players. Given that isn't likely to happen, Jesse's solution is best.
86. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:08 PM PT
I remember the day we parents of the new students assembled in the auditorium to hear the nuns tell us our children had been accepted in the Sacred Heart, and standing with arms folded in a phalanx of righteousness proclaimed "Your children are ours". Tears welled up in my eyes, as I had no doubt of their awesome sincerity. Nine years later I've known no regret. I sense that same awesome sincerity here.
87. AuNaturel - March 29, 1999 - 9:10 PM PT
You want to see what athletics do to colleges? Take a look at the MSU Spartans. They lose a game and we have a ten thousand student riot causing millions of dollars in damages and expenses in a quiet college town. Screw college sports.
88. AuNaturel - March 29, 1999 - 9:15 PM PT
If some school faculty tried to tell me that "Your children are ours", I'd reply "The hell they are. They're OURS and you can't have them." Then my kids would attend school where parents were acknowledged as primary, even if I had to home school them.
89. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:16 PM PT
University students riot. Students in the Middle Ages would riot through the streets for days. If it's not carnival or sports or the closing of a popular watering-hole then it's any incident that touches the bad animal in young people like a hot poker up a wildcat's ass. Get rid of the sports and that critical mass will still find cause to riot.
90. RyckNelson - March 29, 1999 - 9:18 PM PT
Scott,
I sincerely understand. I've been blessed for two years with at least two teachers whose attitude is working towards my daughters behalf. Meeting those two and reading the notes on her report card give real backbone to my pride in her talents and hard work. I think you must know what I mean.
91. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:18 PM PT
re Message #88: You have completely missed the point.
92. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:19 PM PT
For Christ's sake it's not a fight over possession. Can't you understand that?
93. RyckNelson - March 29, 1999 - 9:19 PM PT
Um... my post 90 was in regard to post 86.
94. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:21 PM PT
Ryck Nelson, I understand what you mean, and so should anyone else.
95. RyckNelson - March 29, 1999 - 9:21 PM PT
AuNaturel,
Are you in Minnesota? Why do you care if Jesse is right?
What do you think of Haskins?
96. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:22 PM PT
And my post #92 was intended to #88.
97. RyckNelson - March 29, 1999 - 9:37 PM PT
Scott,
It occured to me you might know some of what is currently concerning me wrt Sarawak, Malaysia. Specifically an increase in military and police presence being reported. I know the current border crisis with Kalimantan is an issue but this is an overall policy change, I think? I was wondering if you had anything enlightening about it. Anything at all? I'm afraid to ask via email of relatives for fear of censors and right now the reports coming out of Sarawak are that negative talk of the government is considered bad to the extreme.
I'll take this to international if you could and are willing to give an insite?
98. ScottLoar - March 29, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
Ryck, I can answer here. With the troubles in Kalimantan the local authorities in Sarawak are right to contain the problems to the Indonesian side. Don't read too much into it. Good night.
99. RyckNelson - March 29, 1999 - 9:42 PM PT
ciao.
100. Slackjaw - March 29, 1999 - 9:45 PM PT
AuNaturel:
"If I had my druthers there would be no sports at college whatsoever"
I'm sorry, aren't you a self-styled libertarian? What would you do when those universities with students like Hal Morris or Barry Larkin that want to organize competition with other schools? Outlaw it?
"the NBA, NFL, et al, would run minor leagues to develop players." Nothing's stopping them, is it? So why isn't it happening? Free market and all. Presumably some of the athletes would prefer it, and presumably the pro teams wouldn't care. Sounds like minor leagues would be more efficient. Well, maybe you're right--after all, we have the CBA and the WLAF.
And basketball had nothing to do with the riots at MSU. Anyone who's ever been to East Lansing knows those students will riot if the cafeteria runs out of chicken patties. "Quiet college town" indeed.