63. cllrdr - April 12, 1998 - 5:42 PM PDT
And that's not the only rip-off. There's Herman Whatshisface who ripped off "Pym" for "Moby Something."
64. verdeazul - April 12, 1998 - 6:59 PM PDT
(I wrote a long riff about the music early this morning but lost it to the Digital Demons when I pushed the "Preview" button. I can't reconstruct it, but I can and will say that blacks brought the special noise. The music has spread into every crevice of the american mind and has made it richer, fuller, more joyful, more profound, more rhythmic, more tragic,deeper, wider, more free, astonishing and marvelous. From worksongs to Louis Armstrong, Big Mama Thornton,Lady Day, Icy Miles-dangerous, the towering, doomed John Coltrane, Sweet Clouds of Joy, The Dixie Hummingbirds, Bob Marley (who brought even more flavors). Black languauge rich and alive. The blessed Ray Charles, Howling Wolf, Little Willie John, Mississippi John Hurt, Robert Johnson, Dinah Washington, The "Duke", the "Count", Motown of the great sorrow
and indelible, funky beauty. Jimi "Where the Hell did HE come from?" Hendrix...to the best of the rappers who bend the english words into new shapes with new meanings...and this is only a tiny part of this list. But the Music has shaped me in beautiful, spiritual ways-Pardon me while I kiss the sky.....
~Azulu
65. cllrdr - April 12, 1998 - 7:01 PM PDT
Will Marion Cook anyone?
66. wonkers2 - April 12, 1998 - 7:12 PM PDT
Stumbo, Plenty of Americans, seeking solutions to the terrible injustices in this country, were too long blind to the evils of Stalin. Half the modern Republicans neocons were socialists in the 30s and later with much less reason than Robeson. Paul Robeson was a monumentally talented and courageous American. History will treat him well. You should try to look at him through a broader lense. He would have been even greater at University of Michigan than he was at Rutgers, except Michigan wasn't recruiting black football players in the Robeson era.
67. MrSocko - April 12, 1998 - 7:22 PM PDT
Robeson (sp?) was most cewrtainly a talented man and fine bass-baritone singer. What he was subjected to in the name of anticommunism was unforgivable. However, please don't let this blind you to the fact that he was a Stalinist, and so belongs to the category of ideological blockhead that you rightly denounce.
68. MrSocko - April 12, 1998 - 7:22 PM PDT
wonkers:
Robeson (sp?) was most certainly a talented man and fine bass-baritone singer. What he was subjected to in the name of anticommunism was unforgivable. However, please don't let this blind you to the fact that he was a Stalinist, and so belongs to the category of ideological blockhead that you rightly denounce.
69. wonkers2 - April 12, 1998 - 7:36 PM PDT
MrSocko, I am not an expert on Robeson or Stalinism but I beg to differ. Stalinist is a pejorative slur applied indiscriminantly in the US by right wingers to just about everybody including FDR and Martin Luther King, Jr. Robeson may have sympathised with what he understood were the objectives of Stalin's policies but it is unfair to dismiss him as a Stalinist. He was a brilliant and courageous and multi-talented man. If you had been a contemporary black man of Robeson's in America, I hate to think what your views and actions would have been. Or not to impute too much to you, I will speak for myself--I would have been an bomb throwing anarchist Stalinist son-of-a-bitch and probably wouldn't have survived my 21st birthday. I hope that does not mean I would've supported Stalin's atrocities very long after I was informed of them.
70. Stumbo - April 12, 1998 - 7:49 PM PDT
Wonkers:
"I hope that does not mean I would've supported Stalin's atrocities very long after I was informed of them."
Well, that would've distinguished you from Robeson, for starters.
71. cllrdr - April 12, 1998 - 8:02 PM PDT
In other words Robeson should have roundly denounced Stalin and embraced the America that had loved him so well, and given him and every other black American ever so many opportunites to love and grow each according to his or her own self-defined extents and limitations. Cue Kate Smith!
72. Stumbo - April 12, 1998 - 8:07 PM PDT
CLL:
In other words, Robeson should have roundly denounced Stalin.
73. 109109 - April 12, 1998 - 8:07 PM PDT
All I can say - thank God Robeson was not a Jewish doctor.
74. cllrdr - April 12, 1998 - 8:19 PM PDT
Stumbo -- And what else? Hey, I'll roundly denounce Stalin for you if you like. Where's my apology for slavery.
75. Stumbo - April 12, 1998 - 8:24 PM PDT
CLL:
Well, of course, I roundly denounce slavery in the U.S. (though, for reasons similar to Wombat's, I can't really apologize for it), and anywhere else, for that matter.
That doesn't quite get Robeson off the hook, though. Great voice or not, he was scum.
76. AdamSelene - April 12, 1998 - 8:28 PM PDT
I was hoping for a thread like this. Sorry if I'm late.
What the hell is wrong with "color-blind?" Do you think it's code for "leaving current inequalities in place" or what? (Yes, clldr, I'm talking to you.)
Or do you think that because my ancestors' bosses owned your ancestors (part of my family was poor white southern trash) that I somehow owe you something?
I've always bent over backwards to give blacks the benefit. Tried to hire (but rarely found qualified), tried to befriend (but rarely found receptive), tried to understand (some success there, given that my southern accent created problems in my chosen northern profession.)
What to do? It's not like I or my parents or my grandparents created your problems. (Did your grandfather send 5 kids to college while working two jobs like mine did?) Why the hell should I care more about you than some poor white trash kids in the Ozarks who never had AA to help them?
My favorite black memory: The Cosby episode when MLK's speech came on and they all sat down to watch it. I had totally forgotten that they were black. Powerful stuff. Tell me again, what's wrong with color-blind?
77. cllrdr - April 12, 1998 - 8:30 PM PDT
Stumbo -- You've got to go back and read the earlier posts to understand what I'm trying to do here. Apologies are supposed to be tendered to ME, as identikit representative of the African-American experience. About 20 posts back I explain why and how this is supposed to work. Think of it in terms of making a good Act of Contrition. As for Robeson, doesn't the fact that he died a broken man despised by White America and forgotten by Black America enough for you?
78. JoeZan - April 12, 1998 - 8:36 PM PDT
cllrdr Message #32
Okay! Alright already!
I'm sorry my grampa on my dad's side didn't emigrate to America 40 years earlier so that he could fight for the North in the Civil War (which he surely would have). Of course, he wouldn't be born for another 20 years, but that's beside the point...
And I'm sorry my great-grampa on my mom's side didn't cross the border from Canada until 1895, so he couldn't help you either. Yeesh!
...now I know where I got my rotten sense of timing!
79. Stumbo - April 12, 1998 - 8:44 PM PDT
CLL:
I've read the earlier posts, and am still unclear as to your point. I agree that the U.S. gov't should apologize to you and other AfAms, though it essentially has, already. (BTW, going back to FV's intro -- what bothered me most about Clinton's apology was that he delivered it not here, but in Africa, addressed to Africans -- whereas it should be, if anything, both him and Africans apologizing to AfAms.)
(Of course, a reasonable argument can be made that today's AfAms are, on average, better off, and have better chances to be better off in the future, than today's Africans -- but that sure wasn't the uppermost concern of the slave-sellers and slave-buyers, centuries ago, so it's irrelevant when it comes to assigning guilt.)
As for Robeson -- he certainly deserved to die despised and forgotten, yes. And he does not deserve to be remembered, today, as some kind of hero.
80. JoeZan - April 12, 1998 - 9:22 PM PDT
philistine:
A couple of years ago, the "Urban Music" reviewer for Rolling stone, Tourre' (sp?), answered critics of gangsta' rap in typical gangsta' style. The gist of her article was the same old tired song about the music being "just a reflection of what's going on in the 'hood, etc, yadda, yadda..."
But the capper was at the end of the article, where she blasted people who claimed that gangsta' rap contributed to the violence and general anti-social-ness so prevalent in the inner-city. She asserted that, just because "some people" were scared of the images the music portrays, that doesn't give them a reason to go around demanding that warning stickers be attached to music with a violent message, because "What offends you, is a balm for my soul".
I wrote a letter to R.S. immediately after I read the article, asking what kind of a sicko finds images of violence and death to be a "balm", but of course, it wasn't answered. And I prayed that this was not how the kids who listen to this stuff view it - as a "balm" for their souls.
In your journeys through the hip-hop chats, do you find this to be the case?
81. MrSocko - April 12, 1998 - 10:51 PM PDT
I have to come right down the middle on the question of Robeson. The treatment accorded to him was absolutely disgusting and unconstitutional. On the other hand, he was a Stalinist; he proudly described himself as a communist at a time when precisely the same rights denied to him (and much, much more) were being taken from the millions in Stalin's gulag.
Because of the persecution he suffered in America, Robeson's supporters have kindled way too much incense around his memory. As a bass-baritone, for instance, he was enjoyable enough, but certainly of the lollipop variety of performer. Nobody would listen to him were it not for the man's urban legend.
cllrdr:
You appear unaware that many people in the Fray either are not Americans (and don't even live in the US) or are non-Americans residing in the States. It could help if you kept that in mind.
82. CalGal - April 12, 1998 - 11:23 PM PDT
CellarDoor,
I searched and searched for posts from our prior conversation, and here is the only one I've found thus far.
As I recall, I told you that I thought the government should apologize for specific acts it did that were illegal. You said you wanted an apology from all whites to all blacks.
**************************
White to black--why? You could technically have someone just off the boat from Ireland apologizing to someone just off the boat from Namibia. Not only is it meaningless, but it implies that the mere act of being white is sin enough. Sorry.
For that matter, a white person could come from a long line of abolitionists on both sides, whose ancestors fought for the Union and whose parents marched in Selma--why should that person apologize? Again, it only makes sense if being white is the sin.
And the fact that Africa has a long history of slavery *is* important if (as has often been the case) the "evil white oppressors" enslaving a gentle, peaceful country isn't quite the case. And it isn't quite the case. Again, saying that doesn't make slavery anything other than repugnant--regardless of the color of the practioner.
But the "evil white oppressor" theory is vital to the concept of white people apologizing for being white. If it were the case that throughout history, white people always enslaved and people of color were always free and considerate to each other--yes. I'd consider apologizing for being white. But that's not the case. And hasn't been throughout history.
I have a friend who is black, but has a great-great grandfather who was white and a great-great grandmother who was Apache. What does he do--apologize to himself and accept it?
As I said--it makes sense for the government to apologize or at least publically acknowledge specific acts as wrong and/or unconstitutional.
83. boohab - April 12, 1998 - 11:33 PM PDT
adamselene. i believe you are an ass of the first magnitude & i don't like you. and since i am black, you can always attribute it to 'reverse' racism. but you know what? i don't care. because as far as i'm concerned, you are an irredeemable pus-nuts blowhard. and your politics are probably as ass backward as your semi-literate confession in post 76. please identify those politics so i can belittle your ideological comrades-in-bumbling.
btw. my grandfather was an orphan and sent all three of his children to college though they grew up in the projects.
so here's what you owe me. absence. get lost, stay lost - let the doorknob hit you where my dog should have bit you.
(i've never flamed anyone so fiercely in all my days here at slate, but i thought i'd just flex those muscles. of course it's outsized and mostly unwarranted.)
84. boohab - April 12, 1998 - 11:35 PM PDT
For the sake of one's children, in order to minimize the bill they must pay, one must be careful not to
take refuge in any delusion--and the value placed on the color of the skin is always and everywhere and
forever a delusion. I know that what I am asking is impossible. But in our time, as in every time, the
impossible is the least that one can demand--and one is, after all, emboldened by the spectacle of human
history in general, and American Negro history in particular, for it testifies to nothing less than the
perpetual achievement of the impossible.
James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time
85. boohab - April 12, 1998 - 11:43 PM PDT
robeson took the best america had to offer, and found it wanting. he was a native son, loyal as any sane man could be. they sat him in a corner and wished he would go away.
"Whether I am or am not a Communist or a Communist sympathizer is irrelevant. The question is whether American
citizens, regardless of their political beliefs or sympathies, may enjoy their constitutional rights."
-Los Angeles Times, February 1, 1976, Calendar Section, pp. 1, 58.
86. boohab - April 12, 1998 - 11:45 PM PDT
"....So here one witnesses in the field of the arts -- a culture national in form, socialist in content. Here was a people quite comparable to some of the tribal folk in Asia -- quite comparable to the proud Yoruba or Basut of East and West Africa, but now their lives flowering anew within the socialist way of life twenty years matured under the guidance of Lenin and Stalin. And in this whole area of the development of national minorities -- of their elation to the Great Russians -- Stalin had played and was playing a most decisive role... But in the Soviet Union, Yakuts, Nenetses, Kirgiz, Tadzhiks -- had respect and were helped to advance with unbelievable rapidity in this socialist land. No empty promises, such as colored folk continuously hear in these United States, but deeds. For example, the transforming of the desert in Uzbekistan into blooming acres of cotton. And an old friend of mine, Mr. Golden, trained under Carver at Tuskegee, played a prominent role in cotton production. In 1949, I saw his daughter, not grown and in the university - a proud Soviet citizen.... They have sung -- sing now and will sing his praise -- in song and story. Slava -- slava -- Stalin, Glory to Stalin. Forever will his name be honored and beloved in all lands. In all spheres of modern life the influence of Stalin reaches wide and deep. From his last simply written but vastly discerning and comprehensive document, lack through the years, his contributions to the science of our world society remains invaluable. One reverently speaks of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin -- the shapers of humanity's richest present and future...." -"To You Beloved Comrade," New World Review, Vol. 21, No. 4, April, 1953, pp. 11-13.
87. boohab - April 12, 1998 - 11:49 PM PDT
oh by the way, that original quote about harlem was james baldwin. here is the next paragraph.
"And this was due not only to the silence of the warriors --their silence being, anyway spectacular in that it rang so loud: it was due to the fact that one knew of battles only what one had accepted of one's own. He was forced, little by little, against his will, to realize that in running the dangers of Harlem he had not been testing his manhood or heightening his sense of life. He had merely been taking refuge in the outward adventure in order to avoid the clash and tension of the adventure proceeding inexorably within. Perhaps this was why he sometimes seemed to surprise in the dark faces which watched him in a hint of amused and not entirely unkind contempt. He must be poor indeed, they seemed to say, to have been driven here. They knew that he was driven, in flight: the liberal, even revolutionary sentiments of which he was so proud meant nothing to them whatever. He was just a poor white boy in trouble and it was not in the least original of him to come running to the niggers."
88. Philistine - April 13, 1998 - 4:15 AM PDT
Joe -
Actually, what I've found in my many years of listening to hiphop and discussing it with all types of people is that that the folks who find the "Gangsta" stuff most appealling are the surburban white thrill seekers. As I said before, a lot of what draws young whites to "black" styles of music and expression is the transgressive thrill - the message is subtle but unrelenting that getting involved with those darkies is dangerous and tantamount to race treason, so if you want to piss off your parents (and what bored teenager doesn't) you should identify as strongly as possible with the most objectionable images available to you. So what could be better than a poor, uneducated, crack-dealing, gangbanging ghetto nigga? Marilyn Manson maybe, but it looks too much like an act. Biggie Smalls looks real!
That was probably a uselessly broad generalization, so I'll follow it up with another. Black youth is more interested in R&B and dance-oriented rap than anything that has to do with glorifying the "ghetto mentality." You may note that most of the big hit songs on the rap charts have great dance beats and the videos feature people dancing. They also frequently have money as their subject matter - an expression of the desire to gain headway in a capitalist society where the only guarantee of status is a fat bottom line.
Of course, gangsta themes, dance beats, and "look at how rich I am" lyrics are hardly mutually exclusive. As I said, these are uselessly broad generalizations.
89. Philistine - April 13, 1998 - 4:16 AM PDT
Also, on the web at least, there is really no way to be sure of the skin-tone of any particular respondent.
90. Wombat - April 13, 1998 - 5:18 AM PDT
Boohab:
Did you print that quote from Robeson as a criticism of him or to praise him? That he could write such appalling nonsense in 1953 (a tribute to Stalin at the time of his death, presumably) in full knowledge of what was done to ethnic groups (oh hell every group) in the Soviet Union under Stalin goes beyond bitterness.
91. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 6:11 AM PDT
The experiment nobody understood.
There's this guy see, he thought, " what if I could ask people to appologise for something they didn't do" could this question lead to a hypothesis?
Hypothesis: Those unwilling are ignorant, those who take it literal are under the influence and those who in the spirit of play, give an apology, are participants.
theory: yet to evolve.
92. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 6:35 AM PDT
hmmmmm...
Fundamentally slavery is abhorable. The actions of slave merchants and cronies, slave owners and cronies and the political/economic environment which allowed and supported it are and were immoral.
I am sorry that this type of person/persons were allowed to operate.
I, as a fellow planetary cohabitant, apologise to the slaves both current and past who have suffered such a cruel fate as enslavement. I can not now nor my ancestors before me change this fate, but my existance was fated and could not be of value to ending tyranny. I am ashamed of that tyranny, for my race and for my innocense.
Weird shit, huh?
93. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 6:38 AM PDT
pus-nuts blowhard,,, hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha can't stop laughin' gonna bust my gut.
boohab, thanks!
94. AdamSelene - April 13, 1998 - 6:47 AM PDT
Just checked in on my way out the door - and I'm not laughing. boohab, if you would list your grievances (besides my mere presence) I will try to address them. Your flame was not amusing to me, and totally without content.
95. Msivorytower - April 13, 1998 - 6:48 AM PDT
Stumbo
"I've read the earlier posts, and am still unclear as to your point. I agree that the U.S. gov't should apologize to you and other AfAms, though it essentially has, already. (BTW, going back to FV's intro -- what bothered me most about Clinton's apology was that he delivered it not here, but in Africa, addressed to Africans -- whereas it should be, if anything, both him and Africans apologizing to AfAms.)
Yes, this bothered me terribly about Clinton's comments. Why apologize to Africans? They weren't the ones sent to America and bought and sold by Americans. It was incomprehensible to me why he did this. And the apology should have been made by Africans to African-Americans here as well.
I also read the initial posts, and found cllrdrs comments opaque, at the very least.
96. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 7:01 AM PDT
Well, Ivory, I predict a short lifespan for this thread -- much shorter than past race threads. In addition to two raving lunatics, there's the matter of this cellardoor character demanding that all white Fraygrants personally apologize to him for slavery. Such idiocies!
97. Msivorytower - April 13, 1998 - 7:03 AM PDT
Hey Socko
That reminds me, does New Zealand have racial issues? Is it the Maori that are there or in Australia? I apologize in advance for my provincialism.
98. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 7:10 AM PDT
Mr.Socko, The "NEW" antagonist.
99. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 7:12 AM PDT
Ivory:
Sure, I guess there are racial issues -- tribal issues, really -- everywhere that two or more are gathered these days.
The Maori/British issue in New Zealand is probably more akin to the situation of the American Indians, although it should be noted that the Maoris are considerably better off. They have had huge tracts of land returned to them, as well as mega-million dollar settlements, and *more than one* apology from the British Monarch.
I'll try and find a useful link for you....
100. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 7:12 AM PDT
Mr. Socko -- re #81 You almost get it about Robeson. I suggest you read Marty Duberman's bio. To say he was a "bass-baritone" misses the point. His contributions have to do with something quite other than "singing." His support of Stalin makes him easy to dismiss and/ or despise. This is tragic. Robeson, like no Black American before or since, stood for three-dimensionality -- a concept white Americans by and large find untenable when dealing with black Americans. To say he sang is like saying he played football -- which he did too, and extremely well. (continued)
101. Msivorytower - April 13, 1998 - 7:15 AM PDT
So Socko
On the issue of apologies, then, has it made a difference to the Maori that the British Monarchs apologized? I mean, was there some qualitative difference that could be discerned afterwards wrt relations with non-Maori?
I'm curious because of the request here for apologies, and its purpose.
102. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 7:18 AM PDT
Yah know, the state of arrogance in america is way to prolific!
The idea that the names given to the participants of this thread, given by the 'ONLY' two admitted african americans are unimportant contributions is ludicrous. This abstract statement of mine is with regard to the thoughts presented by 'whitey'. If the lay out of thought in a thread can't follow prescribed rules and manners then we shouldn't have it! RIGHT! Damn, I'm feeling that old indignation rising like bile in my throat. Typical of me.
Gonna watch my step, can't upset the status quo. Walk the thin line and make my way through the jungle of inuendo and mean spirited persons whom can't grasp the eccentric.
hehehehe, PUHleeeeeez.
103. seepydarn - April 13, 1998 - 7:19 AM PDT
Message #13. cllrdr
>>Which white Frayster will be the first to apologize to me for slavery?
Could a white person make a flippant joke remark about this without being excoriated?
Are you in a position to pardon slavery?
[yes, I read your explanatory follow-up]
104. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 7:22 AM PDT
(continued) Nothing amuses me more than the cries of "Well I never owned slaves. Why should I have to apologize for anything? I'll go to my grave before I'll apologize to any black man!" that spring automatically from the mouths of Whites every time the subject of slavery is brought up. Then there's the fallback position of "And what about all those Blacks who owned slave? Ha! Got you on THAT one, eh?" Equally amusing. That's topped only by the assertion that the Civil War constitutes White atonement for slavery! Stop grasping at straws people. I know, I know. It's hard for White Americans -- hell it's hard for any Americans -- to even consider admitting they might have been wrong about something. That's why I've been trying to stage a ritual apology (to me as a ritual figure) in the Fray. It's purely theatrical. Think of it as therapy, rather than a "political statement" of any kind. Remember, this is all just within The Fray. Nobody else is looking. Oh yes, "European" Fraysters need not apply.
105. Msivorytower - April 13, 1998 - 7:22 AM PDT
Cllrdr
"Robeson, like no Black American before or since, stood for three-dimensionality -- a concept white Americans by and large find untenable when dealing with black Americans."
I'm not sure I'd agree that Robeson stands alone as being perceived as three dimensional, but I think the idea that white Americans have difficulty with this is accurate. However, most Americans have difficulty with complex personalities, in general, and find it hard to process subtlety. The tendency to want to box people, label them, categorize them is a national pastime, here, and has only gotten worse with the onset of the one-liner media age.
I think we've always had a tendency to do this with "others" outside white, anglo-saxon, protestant America, but it's been particularly acute towards African-Americans.
106. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 7:22 AM PDT
AWWWE sheeeeeeet, I've gotta go again. Damn.
Work calls. Read ya all later.
107. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 7:25 AM PDT
Ivory:
The main apology, which was tendered in 1996 by the Queen, did have a soothing effect on race relations here. Most considered it an overdue gesture.
Here's a typical article on the situation.
108. norwoodr - April 13, 1998 - 7:25 AM PDT
The idea of apologizing for something someone else did seems so silly to me that I can't imagine why such an apology would be meaningful to anyone, or why anyone would want such an empty gesture. Should I apologize for the Holocaust because some of my ancestors were German? Should I apologize for throwing Christians to the lions because some of my ancestors may have been Roman? What's the point?
www.io.com/~norwoodr
109. CharlieL - April 13, 1998 - 7:29 AM PDT
CellarDoor Message #104 - "Think of it as therapy..."
Does that make you "therapist" or "the rapist?" It's all in the use of white space...
110. seepydarn - April 13, 1998 - 7:29 AM PDT
Message #104. Cllrdr
>>It's hard for White Americans -- hell it's hard for any Americans -- to even consider admitting they might have been wrong about something.
If I thought I had been wrong about slavery, I would be happy to apologize for my wrong attitude. How, though, can I effectively apologize to somebody who looks like slaves looked as representative of dead people who looked like me? What moral authority do I have to repent or express regret on behalf of ANYBODY other than myself?
Or am I guilty by dint of race?
111. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 7:30 AM PDT
Just do it Norwoodr. It's good for the soul. This also brings up the subject of Black Americans having to apologize. Consantly. Fo living. I'll get around to that in a few post, but just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about I should point out that I love in Los Angeles, a city where every Black must have an apology at the ready in order to get across town.
112. JustSayYo - April 13, 1998 - 7:31 AM PDT
cllrdr, explain emotions to these people. Explain what the definition of a feeling is. Give some insite into what makes a human have feelings of guilt, Beyond the real truths. Is the abstract THAT hard for you folks?
Make it more abstract cllrdr, mess em' up.
flying out the door now, see ya.
113. seepydarn - April 13, 1998 - 7:35 AM PDT
Message #111. cllrdr -
>>…just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about I should point out that I love in Los Angeles, a city where every Black must have an apology at the ready in order to get across town.
Ahh. It's that kind of forced, undeserved, insincere, and resentful apology you want? I think you've probably gotten a few already.
114. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 7:36 AM PDT
Seepy -- No "moral authority" is involved. This is a RITUAL. Come on people. Be the first White man/Woman on your block to be able to say "Well, I apologized for slavery. And to an actual Negro!"
115. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 7:36 AM PDT
seepydarn:
I'm afraid that cllrdr's theatrical parlor games represent what too often passes for serious debate these days on race relations in America.
116. Msivorytower - April 13, 1998 - 7:39 AM PDT
I begin to think this is like performance art. Contrived and full of itself.
117. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 7:39 AM PDT
What "debate" Mr. Socko? Haven't all racial problems been solved? D'Nesh D'Souza says so, so it must be true. Clearly the real problem lies with those few recalcitrant "shiftless Negroes" who refuse to become Republicans.
118. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 7:46 AM PDT
cllrdr:
I cannot think of a subject that has been more extensively and exhaustively debated, considered and argued in America than race. I can think of no serious commentator who has suggested that a debate does not exist.
119. CharlieL - April 13, 1998 - 7:52 AM PDT
Come on, CellarDoor has his "apology" riff, and 109109 has his "llamas" riff. Absolutely logically equivalent.
120. CharlieL - April 13, 1998 - 7:53 AM PDT
OK, CellarDoor, here goes:
I am sorry that you feel you feel the need to ask for an apology from anyone.
121. arkymalarky - April 13, 1998 - 7:54 AM PDT
cllrdr,
Using your line of reasoning, you being an American of the same generation as I, you are equally guilty. If you believe in collective guilt that transcends time and place it can stem from only two possible sources: race or nationality. If your suggestion is nationality--i.e. Americans are at fault--then you share guilt for all the bad this nation has done in the past, and that encompasses a whole lot more than just slavery. If race, no one can help the race he or she is born into, thus there can be no guilt. I guess you could say that for nationality, but anyone who feels guilt over being an American has the power to change that fact. The difference is between choice and fate.
I commented on your personal account in the civility thread because I was touched by the way you presented it. What impressed me most was your closing line about tolerance. Now I have the sense that you're the one punching people in the stomach for no further reason than they are white.
Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding your point. That's why I apologized yesterday, for fear I may have said something offensive to you--cllrdr--the person.
My interest in race has to do with my RL. Not cyberspace, not theory. I realize that those two terms describe what the Fray is, in essence, but if what I learn here(and the thing I have learned first and foremost is that I don't know nearly enough in many areas)does not benefit me some way IRL, it is a waste of my time. And as I have participated here I realize there are some very nice people behind these ids. I'm glad to be getting to know some of them through this forum. But I have an obligation to the people around me IRL, to be aware of their total being. I have an obligation to my students to direct them to the best resources possible to know and understand themselves, where they've been and where they are going. I hope this thread will contribute to that effort.
122. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 8:29 AM PDT
Arky -- Commendable post. "No one can help the race he or she is born into" is what circulates around what Mr. Socko calls a "debate." It's all very simple: I'm in the "wrong" race. My efforts at getting every White Frayster to apoligize to me are, needless to say, put forth in a spirit of fun (at least on my part, I've never seen such anguished posts) But what I'm trying to evoke for you guys is a very small "virtual" sense of what I get all the time. I doubt very seriously White Frayster ears have ever been sullied by the sound of "Hey, boy -- what you doin' here?" Or it's more "enlightened" (suburban) successor "Excuse me, but the store manager asked me to ask you if you could show me some identification." My experience at the gentle mercies of the LAPD (as outlined in the "Civility" thread awhile back) did not come at me as a surprise. Or let me put it another way. In this culture, I am under arrest. Permanently. There will be no trial. Just an arrest. Now I want you to imagine living with that. Have a nice day!
123. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 8:44 AM PDT
cllrdr now appears to be under the impression that racism is a one-way street in America. How quaint. Perhaps he was out of town on a photo-shoot in April 1992 and missed seeing what went down in South-Central.
124. Wombat - April 13, 1998 - 8:57 AM PDT
Last week when I arrived at an intersection near where I work, and where there had just been an automobile accident (between an Asian-driven car and one driven by an Afro-American: no one hurt, have no idea who was at fault) when I heard a comment from an Afro-American teenager to an older Afro-American man to the effect that the crash was the Asian driver's fault because they ate so much rice that their eyes were slanted, and therefore couldn't see very well. The older man nodded in agreement. Moral coward that I am, I did not confront them on their evident racism, and crossed the street, secure in the knowledge that if one of my kids had come out with a statement like that about any race, they would have received a very public bawling out.
125. wonkers2 - April 13, 1998 - 9:09 AM PDT
MrSocko/Stumbo, If Robeson was a communist, blame it on America, not Robeson. Robeson scum? Stumbo, you are demonstrating the dearth of your humanity. What about Gorbachev? Was he ever a Stalinist? Probably so for at least part of his life. What about Republican intellectual Godfather Kristol pere? He and just about everybody else at CCNY in the 30s and 40s were Communists. Robeson had stronger and more understandable reasons than the Great Depression for not seeing the light.
[MrSocko race in America isn't your strong suit. Your ear for the American racial scene is a bit tinny, much as you have accused me on Singapore.]
126. troUSERpilot - April 13, 1998 - 9:13 AM PDT
MrSocko, with all due respect, please take your ill-informed reactionary musings about this issue, in which BTW you have no stake and no standing, back to the hinterlands. I hesitate to point out that by all indications cllrdr's experience with being "Black in America" would seem to trump yours to a significant degree.
127. troUSERpilot - April 13, 1998 - 9:14 AM PDT
cllrdr
I'm more than willing to apologize. But, more interestingly, how can I make it up to you...?
128. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 9:15 AM PDT
Cllrdr:
If you want an apology from me, I have no problem giving it. I feel tremendous guilt over what my ancestors did to native populations, destroying them when they could, enslaving them when they couldn't.
I cannot know exactly what you go through, but I have an idea. I am of Spanish descent, my mother and I being the only ones not born in Spain on both sides of my family; we were born in Cuba. I have two uncles who married outside Spanish cirles - one of my aunts is from Jamaica, and the other from India, so my cousins and I are a strange mixture, indeed. I have seen the way they have been treated in this country, in my presence, although whoever does it never attempts it again. I get the business myself, to a certain degree, especially in Miami, when people say things in front of me about Cubans, not thinking that I'm one of the enemy because I don't fit their narrow conception of 'Cuban'. I cut them off in a hurry, and they always seem very angry with me, as if it were my fault they were lured into indiscretion.
The twin subjects of race and ethnicity wear me down because there never seems to be any kind of resolution. I hope for the best, but what I see and read about on a daily basis doesn't give me much foundation for that hope.
129. AdamSelene - April 13, 1998 - 9:42 AM PDT
clldr,
I'm truly sorry that some people are uncivilized bigots. I'm sorry that you occasionally run into them. Now what? Do you feel better?
I feel like I've been apologizing my whole life just for being white, even though I shun whities who are intolerent. When my stepfather (a steel worker in Alabama) says that he knows lots of good niggers and they're just like everyone else, I grimice and tell him about my integrated neighborhood in Maryland. About how it gives me hope to see the white and black kids playing together outside my window. There's only so much one man can do.
There's absolutely nothing more I can do for your race. I go out of my way for individual blacks that I meet, I even support local black-owned businesses when I have the choice - what else can you reasonably expect?
How do you suppose it makes people like me feel to be constantly accused of racism because of our skin color? No matter what we do? Could you possibly understand that some of us just want to get past it to the color-blind society we all claim to want? Could you maybe understand that some of us even get a tad reactionary to requests like yours?
130. 109109 - April 13, 1998 - 9:44 AM PDT
I think every one of you white devils should apologize. In that my parents came to this country after slavery, I - sadly - cannot issue such an apology.
131. MrSocko - April 13, 1998 - 9:45 AM PDT
wonkers and prettypilot:
Tut, tut. Playing the nativist card again, chaps. Given that I lived for years in Washington, D.C., I think I know a thing or two about race in America. And as I say, it ain't all a one-way street. Not by a long shot.
wonkers: It is true that you know little about SIngapore. It's also true that you know little about race issues (except quotas, which I think we agree on).
132. ptboya - April 13, 1998 - 9:46 AM PDT
cllrdr...for the purposes of this thread I decode your moniker as cOllArd GrEEN.
First, as you know since we've bantered about this, I don't feel that apologies are meaningful in the absence of a commitment to behavioral change. So, as the sort of atheist who, because he doesn't feel threatened by that which he does not believe can go to religious celebrations with neutrality, I can apologize in a sort of meaningless exercize. Or is it exorcise?
I think what too often gets forgotten is that being born white in the US, or for that matter emigrating as a white to the US, has conferred distinct advantages, not the least of which is an economic headstart. Class is color coded in the US. Next to Brazil, the US has the most unequal distribution of income of any country that keeps records of such things. People of color are clustered at the bottom. There are, of course, historical reasons why this is so and yes, things are improving. So first I'll apologize for my complexion and the advantages I inherited which gave me a leg up before I could speak.
Being genetically Scots-Irish and Dutch I'm sure someone in my family somewhere was involved in the Transatlantic slave trade. So I'll apologize for slavery.
But then what? What personal affirmative actions can I take to ameliorate the existing remnants of the horror of owning others?
133. ptboya - April 13, 1998 - 9:49 AM PDT
continued...For me personally it began with a lifelong study of African American music. I am a musician who came to this country from Scotland via Canada. Previous to my arrival I had the scantest notion of black music in the US or anywhere else for that matter. As I began to be exposed to those incredibly gifted artists (another Frayster has already posted a comprehensive list) I became more and more amazed. Jazz is, for me, the the highest musical art form on the planet, and I have made it a point to listen to a lot of the planet's music. As an abused, and thus humiliated child, there was something in this music that was way beyond what I can put into language that appealed to my better angels.
Then, because I am involved in an arena that has long been open to blacks, I have enjoyed the opportunity to relate, both artistically and personally, with some wonderful gifted people. This led me to choose for my children when they came along, the schools where they could relate with children from a diversity of cultures. It appalled me to see people fleeing to suburban sanctuaries far from 'those' kids. To me it seemed that they ended up depriving their children...not keeping them safe.
But lest anyone feel emotionally lifted by these apologies let me repeat what I posted in another Fray. This is from Orlando Patterson's "Slavery and Death: A Comparative Study":
"There is nothing notably peculiar about the institution of slavery. It has existed from before the dawn of human history right down to the twentieth century, in the most primitive of human societies and in the most civilized. There is no region on earth that has not at some time harbored the institution. Probably there is no group of people whose ancestors were not at one time slaves or slaveholders."
Given our long history as a nomadic species, it is probable that ownership of people preceeded land ownership... slaves were the original status symbols.
134. wonkers2 - April 13, 1998 - 9:53 AM PDT
MrSocko, Why would you say a silly thing like "You know little about race issues." It so happens that I have had a lot of experience in American racial issues, from the deep South to the industrial Midwest to D.C. and both coasts. My life spans the period of the post war struggle for civil rights in the United States. And in several ways I participated directly in it. So bugger off mate. Go flog some Maoris.
135. CaptKirk - April 13, 1998 - 10:21 AM PDT
Adam. Re: 129
I second your post.
Ariel. Re: 128
If you want an apology from me, I have no problem giving it. I feel tremendous guilt over what my ancestors did to native populations, destroying them when they could, enslaving them when they couldn't."
Feeling 'guilt' over the actions of past generations serves no purpose other then to sap you of energy, and is therefore irrational. I feel this way, because there isn't ONE culture on the face of this planet that doesn't have a skeleton in its closet. In the reasoning used by those who believe Americans today owe African-Americans an apology for slavery, every culture at some point in the past wronged another culture, and therefore owes that culture an apology.
In the end, all we end up doing is focusing on the past, instead of looking to a brighter future. IMO, this country has lost the vast majority of its 'racist' label. The actions happening all around us speak volumes about this POV. Clldr speaks of little slights that have happened because of his race. Well, the slights you've mentioned sound very familiar to slights I've dealt with, and probably many others. Perhaps the slights were due to your age, or what you were wearing, or some other less innocuous reason.
136. CaptKirk - April 13, 1998 - 10:24 AM PDT
Adam. Re: 129
I second your post.
Ariel. Re: 128
If you want an apology from me, I have no problem giving it. I feel tremendous guilt over what my ancestors did to native populations, destroying them when they could, enslaving them when they couldn't."
Feeling 'guilt' over the actions of past generations serves no purpose other then to sap you of energy, and is therefore irrational. I feel this way, because there isn't ONE culture on the face of this planet that doesn't have a skeleton in its closet. In the reasoning used by those who believe Americans today owe African-Americans an apology for slavery, every culture at some point in the past wronged another culture, and therefore owes that culture an apology.
In the end, all we end up doing is focusing on the past, instead of looking to a brighter future. IMO, this country has lost the vast majority of its 'racist' label. The actions happening all around us speak volumes about this POV. Clldr speaks of little slights that have happened because of his race. Well, the slights you've mentioned sound very familiar to slights I've dealt with, and probably many others. Perhaps the slights were due to your age, or what you were wearing, or some other, more innocuous reason.
137. elliot803 - April 13, 1998 - 10:37 AM PDT
cllrdr:
Good luck trying to get through to MrSocko, AdamSelene, etc.
Re: Black and White Men Together. I don't know if there is an Arizona branch. Trouserpilot introduced me to a man last night I wouldn't mind being together with. (Hi Trousers. What happened to you last night?).
138. RobertDente - April 13, 1998 - 10:41 AM PDT
tP- Message #126
Keep up the pressure; it may help!
139. Msivorytower - April 13, 1998 - 10:45 AM PDT
Tp Message #126
Good liberal discussion techniques there. Very inclusive, indeed.
140. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 10:46 AM PDT
CaptKirk, Message #135:
The populations to which I refer are the natives that the Spaniards found in every area they colonized or attempted to colonize. They also dealt in the slave trade, but their badge of honor is the mess they made of their colonies, a mess from which the former colonies have yet to recover.
I am directly of Spanish descent, yet I was born in Cuba. You have no idea what I feel about what they did to my island, which set the scene for Castro and his minions. So yes, I feel tremendous guilt, and it does not sap me of energy, on the contrary, when Castro finally falls, I'll be there to help rebuild my island.
Those 'little slights' to which Cllrdr refers didn't happen to you, so it's easy to make light of them. Have you read any of his other posts? As for the slights to which I refer, they are what I have witnessed happening to my cousins BECAUSE of the color of their skins, not because of anything else. I know, I was there; they didn't happen to me, and the only difference was in our skin colors. And you can believe me when I say that I made the biggest fuss I could.
What has happened to me is more in the nature of small annoyances; for example, when people shoot their mouths off about Cubans, I ALWAYS make it a point to tell them they're talking about me and my kind. This puts a serious crimp in their style. I react in an even more serious manner when other groups of which I am not a part are the targets of stream-of-vomit comments about their race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Ever see the film 'Gentleman's Agreement' with Gregory Peck? Like the main character, I feel that if you don't object to prejudiced remarks or actions you tacitly condone them.
Shut your eyes to everything around you and look towards your 'brighter future' without doing anything about the present. We'll see if you get there.
141. troUSERpilot - April 13, 1998 - 10:58 AM PDT
Socko
Ah, the wandering dilettante. I apologize to you, now, for all those many decades of peresecution endured by your ancestors who were asked to please vacate the Northern Hemisphere. Please resume your musings. I am rapt.
(elliot803
What happened to ME? You're the one who vamoosed with barely a backward glance. Anyhoo, that guy and I are going out Friday. There's more to this story going back a year and a half, but I'll save it for another thread and/or e-mail and/or conversation.)
142. AdamSelene - April 13, 1998 - 11:01 AM PDT
elliot, Ariel, clldr, et al.
We understand that all evil needs is for good men to do nothing. But even if you discount the good done on an individual basis, can't you at least recognize that we ourselves aren't the enemy? We're on your side, even if not as militant as you might prefer. Give us ammunition that we can use on a daily basis. What else do I do in my daily life to aid your cause? Whatever you do, don't paint us with the same brush as all the bigots you've ever enountered and drive us away in futile frustration.
143. Sasquatch - April 13, 1998 - 11:06 AM PDT
"RobertDente" posted a very funny link. Hysterical.
On the subject of race, Sasquatch always recalls a humor album put out by a black comedian named Chris Rock entitled "Born a Suspect". This idea is probably the most true point of view. It seems dark skinned humans are constantly under suspicion by the lighter toned humans. Right or wrong, dark skinned humans are not treated fairly on a day-to-day basis. Sasquatch just doesn't understand what an apology gets anyone else. Sasquatch just thinks an apology is just a Band-Aid for a gaping wound and, ultimately, is useless.
144. elliot803 - April 13, 1998 - 11:08 AM PDT
trouserpilot:
I'm all ears. I trust the Uruguayan knows about this? (Then again, that's your business).
145. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 11:13 AM PDT
AdamSelene, Message #142:
I'm sorry, but people of goodwill know what to do, so your request for 'ammunition' puzzles me. I am not tarring anyone with any brush, I am speaking of experiences that I have witnessed and in which I have participated. I speak out because I'm tired of hearing this color-blind nonsense - it just doesn't exist. I can't imagine why you took any of what I said personally; I was quite specific in my statement, so all this about 'driving (you) away' doesn't make any sense to me.
146. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 11:16 AM PDT
Sasquatch, Message #143:
Apologies *are* meaningless without action, in my opinion. That's why I put my money where my mouth is in the form of real volunteer work - the kind that makes me feel that I am participating in a solution.
147. seepydarn - April 13, 1998 - 11:33 AM PDT
If you haven't been a victimized minority you have no right to disagree with anybody who speaks on behalf of the victimized folks. Or so seems assumption under much of the chat up to now.
By the same token, if you're not a woman you have no right to practice obstetrical or gynecological surgery.
By the same token, if you aren't a white man you have no right to label them as a group.
Skip the qualifications. Just take a position and defend it.
148. UnderCoverSquids - April 13, 1998 - 11:35 AM PDT
Around the time that Clinton was in Africa I wound up having a conversation with some guy who said that it was really stupid, considering the state of things in Africa, to even pretend to be sorry to black Americans since they have much better lives here than they would back "home."
I told him to check out The Africa Reparations Movement homepage for a different point of view....
Any comments on either way of looking at things?
I've also heard white people say "look at the Jews, they send money and support to Isreal, they keep issues of foreign policy that are of importance to their own interests in the forefront, why can't Black Americans do the same for Africans? Why must 'we' do it for them?"
What do I say to these people?
149. AdamSelene - April 13, 1998 - 11:43 AM PDT
Ariel,
I shouldn't have included you in my addressee list, sorry. My request for ammo was a satirical request for instructions on what more Elliot or clldr would have us do beyond being at least color-blind and often proactive in personal or business matters. I just find it quite frustrating to always be painted as the bad guy just because my skin's white.
I totally fail to understand clldr in Message #104. I've never been wrong about race, I'm not a bigot or racist. Why does he want me to apologize for being wrong about something I wasn't even involved in? I just don't get it. Can someone explain it in simple words so that even a meathead like me can understand it?
150. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 11:45 AM PDT
Squids, Message #148:
I dunno what you can say, but have you tried sprinkling holy water on them?
Seriously, I *don't* know what to say to people like that. It seems as if they're more interested in perpetuating their own stereotypes than in listening to any other point of view.
151. PseudoErasmus - April 13, 1998 - 11:48 AM PDT
ptboya (Message #132)
"Next to Brazil, the US has the most unequal distribution of income of any country that keeps records of such things."
The U.S. has the distinction of having the most unequal distribution of income and wealth among the richest countries, not among all countries. There are probably 140 countries which have more unequal distributions of income than the U.S.
152. JJBiener - April 13, 1998 - 11:50 AM PDT
cllrdr - I regret that I cannot apologize for slavery in this country. As is true for others here, my ancestors were being persecuted in eastern Europe when your ancestors were helds as slaves. I believe it is a travesty slavery existed, but I cannot apologize for something that I have no personal or ancestral relationship to.
I will, however, accept your apology for the enslavement of my ancestors by the Egyptians. There are scholars who claim that Egytians are African and that Ancient Egypt was an African culture. Therefore, I think it is appropriate for you to apologize for their enslavement of the Jews.
While we are at it, I will accept apologies from the following groups:
From those of Russian descent for the progoms under the Czar and the persecution under communism.
From Catholics for the persecution under the Inquisition and for centuries of slander for claiming that Jews killed Jesus.
From descendents of Rome for the occupation of Palestine and the Diaspora of the Jewish people.
From Germans for the Holocaust.
From Muslims for past and current acts of terrorism against Jews and the nation of Israel.
From White Americans for the anti-Jewish activities of the Ku Klux Klan and other white racist groups.
From Black Americans for the anti-Jewish activities of the Nation of Islam and other black racist groups.
From all others who are descended from people who have oppressed and persecuted my ancestors.
153. adrianne - April 13, 1998 - 11:51 AM PDT
Adam
"I just find it quite frustrating to always be painted as the bad guy just because my skin's white."
Then surely you can understand an AfAm's frustration at "always being painted the bad guy" just because his skin is black - and in much more dangerous, devastating ways than being asked for an apology. Fr'instance - when's the last time you were stopped and searched by the police because you fit a "profile" -ie, white male? Do people get off elevators when you get on? Are you followed around retail establishments by clerks?
While it is frustrating, when you're not a racist, to have those vile tendencies ascribed to you because of your skin colour, the sort of generalization that frustrates you and I isn't institutionalized and reinforced by authority figures and, sometimes, laws, like the generalizations that people of colour suffer under.
Walk a mile in a coloured man's shoes.
154. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 11:52 AM PDT
AdamSelene, Message #149:
I hesitate to speak for Cllrdr, but I believe he indicated that he was, in part, being satirical over the apology issue. I don't have a problem apologizing to him because I'm part of a system that allows violations of civil rights on a regular basis. I do what I can on a personal level, but I can't deny that I benefit by not being the object of persecution in a way that persons of color seldom experience.
Thank you for the clarification, btw.
155. CaptKirk - April 13, 1998 - 11:53 AM PDT
Ariel.
I happen to think many, many people are doing what they can 'NOW' to heal the racial wounds of the past. In fact, I'd say the whole thing is the driving issue in contemporary America. We're consumed by it. You can find plenty of examples of ignorance and racism, but they've been relegated to the fringes of society. Looking around at the vast quantitites of evidence, how can one not conclude that our society has become as racially tolerant as can be expected.
In regards to slights felt by racial minorities, I don't mean to minimize what somebody may have dealt with. I'm sure many minorities have felt the tinge of intolerance because of their race. It's inexusable behavior coming from ignorant people. But the point I tried to make was, IMO, perhaps some of the slights felt by racial minorities are due to reasons other then their race. But because their skin-color is black, the automatic assumption is that the slight was due to their race. Perhaps it was due to what clothes they were wearing; or maybe because of a menacing tatoo; or could it have been due to their young age? All of these are possible, and all of them could happen to some white kid who comes across as threatening.
156. AdamSelene - April 13, 1998 - 11:56 AM PDT
adrianne,
I've hardly claimed that blacks aren't often victims of racism. I asked what else am I supposed to do as an individual to atone for something in which I played no part?
157. ptboya - April 13, 1998 - 11:58 AM PDT
UCS...
'...it was really stupid, considering the state of things in Africa, to even pretend to be sorry to black Americans since they have much better lives here than they would back "home." '
What those with this opinion fail to comprehend is the economic effect of stripping a society of productive labor. 10-15 million able-bodied people were kidnapped mostly from W.Africa. This has had a long lasting effect on Africa. Colonialism just put the nail in the coffin by stripping natural resources as well.
"I've also heard white people say "look at the Jews, they send money and support to Isreal, they keep issues of foreign policy that are of importance to their own interests in the forefront, why can't Black Americans do the same for Africans? "
Jews in Europe were not slaves, however horrific their treatment was. They were allowed to maintain family ties. This is what community is based upon. The African diaspora was marked by the stripping of natality from the slaves. All language, kin and cultural ties were outlawed. Ties to the motherland were systematically erased. Ironically it was the story of the jews escaping from bondage in Egypt that blacks appropriated, because that expression of their own story was in the bible and therefore not outlawed.
158. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 12:03 PM PDT
I don't know about you guys, but I just love the way this whole thread is going. Keep it up people. You too, Mr. Socko. Trouser and Elliot -- Keep me abreast of what you guys are up to. It sounds fabulous. Thanks Ariel. And AdamSelene, whether you know it or not, you've managed to redefine the "white man's burden." It's himself.
159. cllrdr - April 13, 1998 - 12:06 PM PDT
Oh and Capt.Kirk -- I don't consider being pulled off of a cross-tow bus in broad daylight, thrown to the ground and having a gun put to my head -- without explanation or apology -- to be a "little slight." Of course if there are Whites who find this scenario common. . . (And I'm not talking about Bosnia!)
160. AdamSelene - April 13, 1998 - 12:08 PM PDT
cllrdr,
Are you content to sit by and laugh, or do you want to educate me? I'm listening. Say your piece. I've learned a lot from the fray, and I've often conceded points that convinced me I was wrong. Play your hand or sit back in your sanctimonious victimhood. Your choice.
161. PseudoErasmus - April 13, 1998 - 12:11 PM PDT
ptboya (Message #157)
"What those with this opinion fail to comprehend is the economic effect of stripping a society of productive labor. 10-15 million able-bodied people were kidnapped mostly from W.Africa."
You don't know what you're talking about. Slaves weren't kidnapped. They were sold to Westerners by the locals.
Moreover, slaves had been West Africa's chief EXPORT "good" since the 8th century. P.D. Curtin (_Economic Change in Precolonial Africa_) estimates that slaves accounted for more than half of all of exports from "Senegambia" before 1750 and more than 85% between 1750 and 1820. He even argues that the "Senegambian" terms of trade improved dramatically as a result of the slave trade. So, clearly, by this reckoning, "Senegambian" national income must have been greatly enhanced as a result of the trade.
"Colonialism just put the nail in the coffin by stripping natural resources as well."
The presence of natural resources is virtually irrelevant to economic development. If it were relevant, Nigeria would be a powerhouse, instead of the cesspool that it is.
162. ArielTheSprite - April 13, 1998 - 12:17 PM PDT
AdamSelene, Message #160:
I think I gave you a good explanation in Message #154.