2. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 6:41 PM PT
Let me try that link again.
Is There One Right Way to be a Jew?
Sorry about that!
3. MrSocko - Jan. 26, 1999 - 7:22 PM PT
I don't see that Jewishness has much to do with Judaism. The first is a praiseworthy civilization, an intellectual culture par excellence, the second is largely mumbo-jumbo. Like any organized religion -- like Christianity, Islam, the worship of celebrities -- Judaism had its historical place as a primitive form of philosophy but it's now way beyond that point. Hence its descent into profitless debates over who is or isn't a Jew. Can't these people find something better to do with their time?
4. Seguine - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:44 PM PT
Socko,
Klinghoffer and Dubner don't really appear to be debating 'who is a Jew'.
Actually, it's an interesting discussion, particularly when contrasted with the kinds of conversation faithful (and faithless) Christians tend to have with one another. The latter, whether accepting or rejecting the dogma, always seem to begin and end with the dogma.
But Judaism, even dogmatic Judaism, has ways out of the need for certainty, and these generally come back to the incomprehensibility of God.
Since even the existence of 'God' (let alone God's desires and motives) is unprovable, it seems to me that uncertainty is the only tenable intellectual stance WRT religion; *faith*, as I've asserted elsewhere, is an emotional matter and requires neither proof nor specifics. As a Jew, one could 'feel' the existence of God without 'knowing' whether or not God existed. And one could, I suppose, find one's way toward greater certainty in such a feeling through observance of ritual, without working to find pseudointellectual explanations for why God must exist.
Two other interesting points brought out in the Klinghoffer-Dubner exchange:
€ observance of ritual is a useful discipline, the purpose of which is to guide the observant toward an (ultimately unreachable) understanding of whatever lies behind the awe one can have in the face of world (nature, people, art, etc.)
€ the famous Hillel remark ("do/don't do unto others...all the rest is commentary--now, go study"): here is simply the basis of human moral impulses, which recognizes two things at once, reciprocity and compassion. Any religion which makes 'God' both unncessary and present (even only as an idea) by insisting at base on the importance to human interaction of those twin utilities can't have completely descended into primitive mumbo-jumbo.
5. phillipdavid - Jan. 26, 1999 - 11:11 PM PT
I just read the last installment -- I immidiately liked this Dubner fellow -- and look forward to reading the rest of the dialog.
Seguine, Your comment about Christians always beginning and ending with dogma spurred me to want to rebut, but after thinking about it I have to concede it is a fair generalization. Several times I have piped up, when the subject of "what is a Christian?" is broched, that it is how you act that is the determinant. But my comments always seem to get ignored in favor of more dogmatic ones.
I also am quite taken with your simple (but powerful) observation about compassion and reciprocity. Not knowing much about Judaism, or being Jewish, I immiediately connected your thoughts with what I do know best, Christianity and Buddhism, where they fit rather well (imo). I look forward to any other observations you may have.
6. darkviolet - Jan. 26, 1999 - 11:24 PM PT
Pffttt!!! (Jews give me gas.)
"uncertainty is the only tenable intellectual stance WRT religion"
Idiot, uncertainty is always untenable [incapable of being held, maintained or defended]
If your religion is uncertain, your ethics are uncertain. You obviously don't know what to think or do.
7. darkviolet - Jan. 26, 1999 - 11:26 PM PT
Excuse me, I need to go to the restroom.
8. RustlerPike - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:42 AM PT
Seguine:
#4 was excellent.
violet/azure/toonces:
I believe I read somewhere that it is comments about Native Americans which get your goat. Is this true? What would you say if I commented on the Amerindian tendency to alcoholism? Would you scalp me?
9. darkviolet - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:50 AM PT
I don't have any goats. I have a couple of cats, and some deer hang around. I don't think you will get any of them.
I thought it was Irish and Russians who are alcoholics?
10. psychtechpta - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:45 AM PT
I am a Orthodoxed Messianic Jew who Believes in the Torah and the Prophets. Yeshua Messiah of Israel came to complete our understanding of the Torah and the Prophets,because the Torah Remains NECESSARY,APPLICLABLE AND REMAINS IN FORCE STILL TODAY!!! The Word "Law" is a bad Translation for the Torah. The correct Translation is Divine Instruction,and Divine Teaching from G-d. Yeshua is the Hebrew Name Christians call Jesus. Since He was given the Hebrew Name Yeshua;I call Him by His Given Hebrew Name Yeshua Messiah;because in the Torah Propheseid Yeshua Messiah of Israel. And in the "New Testament I go back to the Hebrew,Aramaic Languages. I highly Recommend Reading the Complete Jewish Bible as Translated by David H. Stern by Jews.All 66 Books of the Bible. You can check it out of your Library!!! Enjoy Reading. Since I follow the Instructions of The FRAY I did not Advertise however only Advised the Reader the Public Library and give the Translators Name for the Librarian to look under;since I am a Moral Person.
11. psychtechpta - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:47 AM PT
I am a Orthodoxed Messianic Jew who Believes in the Torah and the Prophets. Yeshua Messiah of Israel came to complete our understanding of the Torah and the Prophets,because the Torah Remains NECESSARY,APPLICLABLE AND REMAINS IN FORCE STILL TODAY!!! The Word "Law" is a bad Translation for the Torah. The correct Translation is Divine Instruction,and Divine Teaching from G-d. Yeshua is the Hebrew Name Christians call Jesus. Since He was given the Hebrew Name Yeshua;I call Him by His Given Hebrew Name Yeshua Messiah;because in the Torah Propheseid Yeshua Messiah of Israel. And in the "New Testament I go back to the Hebrew,Aramaic Languages. I highly Recommend Reading the Complete Jewish Bible as Translated by David H. Stern by Jews.All 66 Books of the Bible. You can check it out of your Library!!! Enjoy Reading. Since I follow the Instructions of The FRAY I did not Advertise however only Advised the Reader the Public Library and give the Translators Name for the Librarian to look under;since I am a Moral Person.
12. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:16 AM PT
psychtepta:
It's perfectly acceptable to recommend books in the Fray. We do not consider it advertising.
13. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 5:42 AM PT
"Idiot, uncertainty is always untenable [incapable of being held,
maintained or defended]"
On the contrary, moron, uncertainty is the ordinary condition of life. It's perfectly tenable, from an intellectual standpoint, where matters of belief, and especially morality, are concerned. But since you are by your own unwitting accounts a mental and moral midget, you must be excused from the burden of uncertainty: God being by most accounts indulgent, I expect you have permission from him to be sure of whatever dogshit sticks to you wherever you walk.
"If your religion is uncertain, your ethics are uncertain. You obviously don't know what to think or do."
People who were certain of their moral compass more or less wiped people like you off the map of this continent. They knew "what to think", they knew "what to do".
Now you and yours, amputated remainders, are consigned to self-isolation, poverty, backwardness, racism, the effects of racism, and a host of other ills routinely suffered by the downtrodden. On top of that, your personal landscape is but a dogmatic littoral of cherished certainties indistinguishable in form from the Christianity you think you've left behind.
You apparently believe religion precedes ethics. But it doesn't.
14. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 5:53 AM PT
I would like some comments on the book, JEWISH HISTORY, JEWISH RELIGION, THE WEIGHT OF 3000 YEARS by Israel Shahak. If I recall, Pike refused to read it. The villians in the book are the Rabbis, not the Jews. Read it if you dare, my Jewish friends.
15. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 6:17 AM PT
I quote again from Graves--
"...and religion for the primitive Greeks and Romans was not obedience to laws but a means of protecting the tribe against evil by active counter measures of good."
Judaism is also very concerned with protecting the tribe, and it is not hard to imagine that under a very religious Rabbinical leadership that "Jewish" Israel might lead the "Israelis" in a "jihad" Biblical in nature using our modern weapons of destruction. This, ofcourse, depends on how much control of the politcal , and military process the rabidly religious hold. According to Shahak they hold too much sway in the military.
I worry about crazies in the U.S. also. The right wing crazies speaking of moral authority. I think that Kissenger recently said that Clinton didn't have the "moral authority to be a war criminal." Let us all turn to the moral and the religious for our salvation.
16. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 6:40 AM PT
I look forward to continuing to read the dialogue and to reading this thread. I know very very little about Judaism. I have a personal interest now as my younger brother converted to Judaism just before marrying a Jewish woman. At first, I assumed that he did this simply to please his wife. It is now obvious that it is a conversion from the heart. He is very sincere and devout and follows Jewish Law with what can only be described as joy. He describes himself as a 'Conservative Jew'.
I have received the impression in the past that Jewishness is felt to be a 'race' as much as a 'religion' and that converts are not necessarily welcome. Is this true?
17. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 6:48 AM PT
"Judaism is also very concerned with protecting the tribe, and it is not hard to imagine that under a very religious Rabbinical leadership that "Jewish" Israel might lead the "Israelis" in a "jihad" Biblical in nature using our modern weapons of destruction."
Well, if you are a paranoid it's also not hard to imagine Pat Robertson levelling Iran with weapons of mass destruction. (He did run for President here, if you recall.) Many people fear the religious right has gained too much power and authority in this country as well. Are we on the verge of a "jihad" (because 'Christianity protects its interest in dominating American culture' or whatever broad caricature you want to draw to defend a baseless prediction)? I don't think so.
Neither is Israel. It *is* a democracy, after all, and there *is* division and disagreement among its citizens. You will notice that despite whatever power has concentrated in the hands of the loon fringe over the last decade, an opposing liberal spirit remains strong there and will probably reassert itself to some extent in the next elections.
But Pike would know more about that than I do.
18. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:00 AM PT
Seguine,
"Since even the existence of 'God' (let alone God's desires and motives) is unprovable, it seems to me that uncertainty is the only tenable intellectual stance WRT religion"
Well said. I would be interested in reading further about how Judaism allows for this uncertainty, if you feel like explaining further.
From what I know about Hinduism, there is a similar acceptance (even encouragement) of uncertainty, because in the end God is unknowable, incomprehensible.
"Of the Atman (Universal Soul) Hindu philosophy says that to every description and classification only one reply is possible: Neti, Neti. (Not this, not this.) So to every definition of Hinduism (and God) one is COMPELLED to say that it does not apply."
Nirad Chaudhuri (Hinduism)
19. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:05 AM PT
Actually, Seguine, I feel very safe. These are just healthy intellectual exercises. Very Jewish. Time will tell. Stay alert.
20. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:07 AM PT
Seguine:
You don't think so. I am not sure.
21. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:16 AM PT
Message #18
None of the Abrahamic religions has any attitude toward "uncertainty", which is a philosophical posture and not a religious one. The existence of God is taken to be self-evident by faith among religious Jews, Christians and Muslims. Issues of certainty matter only with the so-called "God of philosophy", a rarefied concept that saw its day in the medieval philosophies of Judaim, Christianity and Islam, all of which have famous exponents of the concept.
22. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:19 AM PT
Also, could we stop calling something which is patently just a religion a philosophy? There may be a Jewish philosophy or a Christian philosophy, but Judaism and Christianity are not philosophies. I am also unaware of any "Hindu philosophy". What is "Hindu philosophy", as opposed to the religion of the Hindus?
23. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:24 AM PT
Pseuder,
Read Nirad Chaudhuri's excellent 'Hinduism'. You'll find your answer there.
24. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:24 AM PT
My Message #21 was unclear. In the Middle Ages, such philosophers as Maimonides, Avicenna and Aquinas all posited a distinction between the God of theology and the God of philosophy. The former was an article of faith and revelation; the latter a matter of logical demonstration, certain and necessary. But in part as a reaction to medieval philosophy, later philosophers began gradually abandoning the idea that the existence of God could be proven. Today, philosophy no longer trafficks in certitudes. My point earlier was that this is not an evolution of religion, but of philosophy.
25. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:26 AM PT
Message #23
I'm sure he has a very vulgar notion of philosophy.
26. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:27 AM PT
I have received the impression in the past that Jewishness is felt to be a 'race' as much as a 'religion' and that converts are not necessarily welcome. Is this true?
27. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:30 AM PT
Your presumptuousness knows no bounds. Chaudhuri knows more about Western philosophy alone than you are ever likely to grasp. In fact, in his lesser moments in writing, he reminds me of you (with a bigger better brain). Kindly remedy your lapses in education and read him.
28. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
Asiatics are incapable of real philosophy. They mumble either about filial piety, or about reincarnation, or about some Elysian field with lotus flowers wafting through the air. Leave philosophy to Semites and Europeans.
29. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
"I have received the impression in the past that Jewishness is felt to be a 'race' as much as a 'religion' and that converts are not necessarily welcome. Is this true?"
Yes and no. That is, it may still be true, even to the extent that it was a generation ago, but in certain places and communities more than others.
There are plenty of very welcoming Jewish communities in the US, so I expect your brother will encounter less difficulty among conservative Jews today than, say, my mother did when she converted 40-odd years ago. Some members of my father's family were very reluctant to accept her as legitimate. (They got over it eventually, or lived too far away to matter in the first place.) Some of that reaction can be attributed to Jewish insularity--by which I mean the tendency of Judaism to exclude the culture outside from the "rightness" of the culture and the people within the gates.
But there are other factors involved in some Jews' feelings about conversion, not the least of which, in the twentieth century, are fear and rage. Christians in particular are suspect, having a rather long history of being frighteningly at odds with Jews. The Spanish Inquisition may have taken its place firmly in the past, but for many Jews the events in Poland, Russia, and Germany during the last 100+ years aren't so distant that Jews in the US have become inured to the willing and righteous participation of Christians in a repetitious slaughtering of us. (Mind you, it was only as of the 1960s that Catholic doctrine was officially changed to recognize that the Jews were not, after all, the killers of Jesus.)
Also, I think it's fair to say that my mother's Mississippi Baptist parents, who used the word "nigger" as casually and with as much righteousness as Toonces passes gas, were no more welcoming of a Jew-boy for a son in law than his culturally loftier east-coast, third generation American relatives were welcoming of som
30. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:33 AM PT
...some backwoods shiksa into the tribe.
31. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:39 AM PT
Your message #28 would have Chaudhuri (101 in 1999) cackling briefly before he lacerated your tomfoolery. FWIW no person has ever been as "English" in hs thinking and attitude than Chaudhuri. "He is English lierature to the marrow." (John Bayley). Unlike you, there is no puffery in Chaudhuri, and no gaps in scholarship.
I'm tired of constantly thrusting his unique and estimable writing in front of your blinkers. Read him already, you young scallywag.
32. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:41 AM PT
no person has ever been _more_ English....
33. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:46 AM PT
Message #31
You misunderstand. I'm not saying that those who are ethnically Asiatic are incapable of philosophy. Obviously, an Asiatic educated in the history of Western and Islamic philosophy could be conversant in the subject. I merely deny that civilisations outside Europe and Islam have produced any real philosophy. All true philosophy derives from the Greeks.
34. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:50 AM PT
An exception is Confucianism, but that's an ethical and social philosophy, devoid of epistemology, metaphysics, etc.
35. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:02 AM PT
"I merely deny that civilisations outside Europe and Islam have produced any real philosophy. All true philosophy derives from the Greeks.
From Chaudhuri's book (which spends some time discussing a conmparison between Hindu and Greek philosophy, religion and especially art."
"The (Greek) invasion itself was was only an episode, but its effects were lasting.....this Greek presence was a potent cultural influence on the Hindus.
The Greek influence influence on Hindu culture has always been discounted by Indian scholars from purely nationalistic sentiments. But there can be no doubt that this influence was real. How strongly entrenched Greek culture was in this area can be judged from the fact that Asoka found it necessary to have his religious message inscribed in the Greek language."
etc. etc.
36. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:06 AM PT
Message #35
Absolutely meaningless. Where is the philosophy?
37. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:07 AM PT
"Also, could we stop calling something which is patently just a religion a philosophy? There may be a Jewish philosophy or a Christian
philosophy, but Judaism and Christianity are not philosophies."
Very little is "philosophy" according to the only definition of the word you accept. But the common understanding of "philosophy" among English speakers, who lack a term like "Weltanschauung", is "a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs". In that sense of the word, Judaism is very much a philosophy, as are other religions in which faith is not the only or most important issue.
Also, Judaism is perhaps more various than you suppose. The existence of God may be a fundamental assumption for the clergy in most branches of it (probably with the exception of Reform), but in none of them is faith a fundamental requirement for Jews in general, certainly not in the sense that faith is a requirement for a lay Catholic or a Baptist. Adherence to principle, on the other hand, *is* a fundamental part of Judaism. Thus, one can live according to the principles of the religion, disbelieve utterly in the divine origin of those principles, disbelieve even in God, and yet live as a Jew. Ignoring Jewish principles while claiming a belief in God, on the other hand, makes one in effect... well, a goy.
38. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:08 AM PT
Seguine Message #29 :
Thank you very much for answering my question. Could you recommend a good website or book for me on the basics of Judaism? Now that I aware of how important this conversion is to my brother, I want to know more. This is both to avoid offending him and to know when to send him some sort of recognition on holidays (assuming that is even appropriate).
My parents are devout, active Methodists. However, their attitude (and the rest of the family's attitude) toward my younger brother's conversion (and my older brother's avowed atheism) has pretty much been "you are my child, I will love and accept you no matter what".
His wife's parents have been accepting of him, but I don't know about her extended family. I do know that even though they both have PhD's in Chemical Engineering, they have had trouble finding jobs because they have restricted their search to the East coast and will only accept jobs where they can find an accepting Jewish community.
When my Mom recently visited, she made the comment that she felt uncomfortable because the community they now live in is almost exclusively Jewish, all their friends are Jewish, and the majority of their activities involved their faith. She felt out of place.
39. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:16 AM PT
Seguine (Message #37)
"Very little is 'philosophy' according to the only definition of the word you accept...."
Nonsense. Whenever people utter something like a "philosophy of selling" or a "philosophy of snorkelling", I accept that they are using the looser definition of "way of doing things" (or whatever).
"But the common understanding of 'philosophy' among English speakers, who lack a term like 'Weltanschauung'..."
Philosophy is not a Weltanshauung.
"...'a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs'."
Philosophy is simply what is found in the pages of Aristotle or Kant or Popper.
40. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:17 AM PT
Today, in the popular imagination, philosophy has become synonymous with "worldview", "belief system", "values" or even "ideology" -- in other words, a secular religion. If you believe that all matter is made up of tiny little faeries, then that's a philosophy too. That's why prattle about "Buddha's vision of Oneness" could be supposed a philosophy.
This is all just pedantic griping, however.
41. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:22 AM PT
Message #37
"Also, Judaism is perhaps more various than you suppose."
I didn't realise I had supposed anything about the varieties of Judaism. In Message #21 I was obviously talking about those who believe in God.
42. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:57 AM PT
" I would be interested in reading further about how Judaism allows for this uncertainty, if you feel like explaining further."
Quite simply, Judaism in general asserts that God exists, that it's up to people to find their way to some sort of personal undersatnding of God (not the other way around), that the law (which our "ORTHODOXED" correspondent Dr. Bronner accurately points out is more a set of instructions for living righteously) is God's "covenant" with Jews, who by definition are the people who choose to live by those instructions, and that human beings, not God, are ultimately the arbiters of what those instructions mean. This last point makes Judaism comparatively flexible, as religions go.
From a secular Jewish standpoint,
€ 'God' is the order of the universe to which human beings have no choice but to submit; within which human beings must operate; and an understanding of which human beings are expected to seek and employ to human advantage, which includes maintaining and 'repairing' the world as needed.
€ The "law" is the way via which human beings can achieve prosperity, happiness, longevity, etc., in a world that is made according to this ultimately incomprehensible order.
€ The "covenant" is the universe's quid pro quo with sentient things: live compassionately and with an understanding of the nature of reciprocity--i.e., according to principle--and you'll live better and your progeny will survive longer.
As an aside, I would like to point out that science is not in any way inimical to Judaism. Neither is sex. Nor are human beings considered inherently bad, or 'soiled'. Even the orthodox concept of the messiah is unlike the modern Christian one: the purpose of the moshiach is not to save human beings from sin and hell after death, but to transform the world into a living paradise in which there is no more suffering. Lubbavitchers, for inst
43. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:59 AM PT
...for instance, believe that people have the power to hasten the arrival of the moshiach through righteous action. Reform, Conservative, and especially Reconstructionist Jews hold ritual observance to be only one of many ways of hastening the "moshiach", which I think everyone but the Orthodox considers a figurative eventuality. Other means of making the world better include political activism, learning, discourse, and so on.
Finally, a well-known summary of Jewish "philosophy" [much of which comes down from medieval texts, the Pirkei Avot (Sayings of the Fathers), the Talmud, the Shulchan Aruch (Table of Values), et al.]:
If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, when?
(This is probably Hillel, but I forget.)
44. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:44 AM PT
"Philosophy is not a Weltanshauung."
A Weltanschauung is "a view of life, a philosophy of life, an ideology", according to my dictionary.
"I didn't realise I had supposed anything about the varieties of Judaism."
Of course you did. You made a specious separation of Jewish "religion" from Jewish "philosophy". They aren't separate and the latter has not seen 'it's day'.
"In Message #21 I was obviously talking about those who believe in God."
Really? Here's your message 21:
"None of the Abrahamic religions has any attitude toward "uncertainty", which is a philosophical posture and not a religious one. The existence of God is taken to be self-evident by faith among religious Jews, Christians and Muslims. Issues of certainty matter only with the so-called "God of philosophy", a rarefied concept that saw its day in the medieval philosophies of Judaim, Christianity and Islam, all of which have famous exponents of the concept."
What do you suppose modern Judaism--the religion--consists of? A *rejection* of the changes that medieval Judaism underwent?
The existence of God is regularly challenged in Judaism to *this* day, both implicitly and explicitly (as is the necessity of observance of ritual, for that matter). There's reams of material attesting to this, particularly post-WWII. Even JEWS are uncertain as to whether Judaism today should be considered a faith or ['vulgar' usage alert] a philosophy. Since it plainly cannot, strictly speaking, be an ethnicity, the default term used nowadays is "civilization". For you to summarily define Judaism as EITHER a religion (for the faithful) OR a philosophical posture (for unbelievers) is simply the mistake of one who doesn't know what Jews think, or how Jewish doubt and dissent is interpreted to belong to religious thought.
45. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:50 AM PT
WRT the final question that DK ask, "What do you make of all those Torah acts that Reform and Conservative so casually brush aside--Sabbath, Kosher laws, daily prayer, tefillin, and on and on-- which have always been understood as working best as disciplines, not as the occasional experiment?
The obession with ritual is an excellent means of control for an authoritarian Rabbinate. Best to have the faithful occupied, rather than give them the freedom to think for themselves. "The religious impulse arises first in a sensation of awe at the sublimity of the world around you: people, nature, love, art..." Clearly a modern view of the religious impulse. Further, I know many religious people who wonder about the world no more than does an amoeba, but they are heavily into ritual.
It does seem strange that the Jews had so much trouble whereever they settled. This is attributed to a moral failing in the rest of humanity. I find this unlikely. What is more likely is that the problem has its root in some attribute of the Jews. Their insular nature. Their lack of respect for the people that they lived among. Their belief that they are "chosen", and superior to the rest of humanity.
46. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:00 AM PT
"It does seem strange that the Jews had so much trouble whereever they settled."
FWIW, Jews have lived in India for at least 2000 years with no hint of anti-semitism, except for a limited episode of the Inquisition under the Portuguese.
47. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:11 AM PT
ChristiPeters,
"Could you recommend a good website or book for me on the basics of Judaism? Now that I aware of how important this conversion is to my brother, I want to know more. This is both to avoid offending him and to know when to send him some sort of recognition on holidays (assuming that is even appropriate)."
From the rest of your post, it sounds like your brother has either converted to a Conservatism more conservative than most I'm familiar with, or else has become a member of an Orthodox sect. Either way, the east coast probably *is* where more communities of such people are to be found, and community is extremely important among very observant Jews.
I'm sorry, I'm unable to recommend a specific book or website. There are lots of books on Judaism (various brands) at places like Borders, probably Barnes and Noble as well. There are periodicals, too, and publications from Jewish theological seminaries, some of which are probably available on the web.
You might consider asking your brother directly what it means to him to be a Jew. He did not convert, after all, merely by accepting a set of precepts, but was required to study for a fairly long time with a teacher.
48. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:17 AM PT
"It does seem strange that the Jews had so much trouble whereever they
settled. This is attributed to a moral failing in the rest of humanity. I find this unlikely. What is more likely is that the problem has its root in some attribute of the Jews. Their insular nature. Their lack of respect for the people that they lived among. Their belief that they are "chosen", and superior to the rest of humanity."
Well, if a group is insular, feels itself superior to the cultures surrounding it, then obviously the only morally acceptable thing one can do with such people is hack them to pieces or gas them.
49. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:18 AM PT
Seguine (Message #44)
I repeat: philosophy is not a Weltanschauung. And let me also repeat that in Message #21 I was talking about those who believe in God, specifically the philosophers, theologians and learnt men of the past. I may have been unclear about that, but I did clarify my meaning in Message #24.
"For you to summarily define Judaism as EITHER a religion (for the faithful) OR a philosophical posture (for unbelievers) is simply the mistake..."
Nonsense. I've done NO such thing. I have not even talked about secular & unbelieving Jews, let alone characterised their views as "philosophical posture". The secular Judaism you describe in Message #42 and #43 is hardly even a philosophical posture, but just that, a religion without God, a secular religion.
In Message #22 and Message #24, I reiterated the distinction between the God of philosophy and the God of theology that philosophers/theologians of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim tradition have traditionally recognised. These believers in God _simultaneously_ held a philosophical posture with respect to God and the traditional faith in God. And the issue of uncertainty was dealt with from within philosophy.
I don't know anything about, much less care about what secular "Jews think, or how Jewish doubt and dissent is interpreted to belong to religious thought."
50. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:35 AM PT
"You made a specious separation of Jewish 'religion' from Jewish 'philosophy'."
Well, this "specious separation" is one countless Jewish philosophers have made, so I will defer to them.
51. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:38 AM PT
"I don't know anything about, much less care about what secular "Jews
think, or how Jewish doubt and dissent is interpreted to belong to
religious thought.""
I must remember to add these to my little collection of Things PE Doesn't Think About. Nevertheless,
"...the distinction between the God of philosophy and the God of theology that philosophers/theologians of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim tradition have traditionally recognised"
isn't relevant to anything being discussed here. Nor is, "I repeat: philosophy is not a Weltanschauung."
The terms in use, however fourth-definition, are understood by the people using them.
52. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:48 AM PT
".....isn't relevant to anything being discussed here..."
You brought up uncertainty about God, a philosophical issue.
53. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:51 AM PT
By the way, I have never read any Jewish philosopher per se. Whatever I know about Jewish philosophy, which is not very much at all, is derived from "A History of Jewish Philosophy", ed. by Daniel Frank and Oliver Leaman. It makes rather clear that Jewish philosophers & theologians have -- since the conquest of Jewish lands in the ME by the Greeks -- obsessed about the relationship between the claims of philosophy and those of religion.
54. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:53 AM PT
My solicitude about what philosophy is and is not, issues from my irritation in occasionally finding "Chicken Soup for the Soul" next to Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" at some bookstores.
55. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:56 AM PT
Message #52
Uncertainty about god is not exclusively a philosophical issue. If it were, you would be unable to assert, "The secular Judaism you describe is hardly even a philosophical posture, but just that, a religion without God, a secular religion."
56. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:09 AM PT
"...Jewish philosophers & theologians have -- since the conquest of Jewish lands in the ME by the Greeks -- obsessed about the relationship between the claims of philosophy and those of religion."
Modern day diaspora Judaism has in many of its aspects incorporated the claims of philosophy into religion. They are no longer really separate, and haven't been for at least fifty years.
"My solicitude about what philosophy is and is not, issues from my
irritation in occasionally finding "Chicken Soup for the Soul" next to
Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason"..."
The Holy One Blessed Be He will surely show you mercy.
57. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:10 AM PT
Seguine Message #47 : Thank you for taking the time to answer me. I will start trolling the few local bookstores for material. If I can't find anything here it will go on my 'List of Things to Look for in Dallas'.
When I first became aware of how observant of Jewish Laws and traditions my brother is, I would have called hime 'Orthodox'. He has informed me that "Orthodox Jews only accept those born as Jews". This is what prompted my first question in this thread.
I am aware that I have nothing substantive to contribute to this thread and will stop 'interrupting' now and go back to lurking.
Thanks again.
58. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:11 AM PT
".. called HIM...." (darn fumble fingers!)
59. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:20 AM PT
"Orthodox Jews only accept those born as Jews"
If he simply means social acceptance he's probably right in most cases, but technically, the orthodox do accept converts.
60. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
Seguine - Yes, I think he was talking about social acceptance.
61. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
Seguine:
re:48
That is another Jewish myth, that the Jews were simply a people"at awe of the sublimity of the world around them" wandering about the world just looking for the right to worship their god. The Jews most often occupied a position in European society btween the nobility and the peasants, and were used by royalty to do the dirty deeds that needed to be done. When the peasants revolted it was often a Jewish foot that they were removing from their neck. This type of behavior goes into the "Evidence for Anti-Semitism " file in the encyclopedia of Jewish myths..
62. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:05 PM PT
ChristiPeters
Hi I haven't been around for a while but please don't think you have nothing to contribute here. As for your question on #16 and respeated posts I can say that Jews are not a race. Anyone who has ever been to Israel and looked at the faces there can see that Jews are a people or a civilization and Judaism is a religion but Jews are not a race. The truth is that I do not believe that there are any races at all except for the human race. But that's a different discussion. But for our purposes here, Jews come in every color and configuration. It's just that in the US we are more familiar with European Jews. But Jews come from everywhere and look like everyone. (No special noses.)
63. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
ChristiPeters
As to your questions about your brother's conversion, Orthodox Jews recognize converts if the converts are Orthodox. Your brothers' Conservative community sounds alot like mine. Conservative Jews can be observant and have an intense communal life. But our interpretations of some of the teachings are different from the Orthodox. For questions about the Jewish community, you might want to look at Judaism and Jewish Resources webpage maintained by Andrew Tannenbaum. It's a pretty inclusive list of webpages by and about the Jewish community in all its variations. I'll post the address if I can figure out how to post a link. If you'r interested I'll check the instructions.
64. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:18 PM PT
"That is another Jewish myth, that the Jews were simply a people"at awe of the sublimity of the world around them" wandering about the world just looking for the right to worship their god."
Jews are not "simply" anything. You, however, are simply another brand of Toonces.
65. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:20 PM PT
That link, for anyone interested, is http://shamash.org/trb/judaism.html
66. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:20 PM PT
justlooking - Yes, I am interested.
BTW, once in college I was asked my opinion on 'mixed-marriages'. I said I was totally against them! I would never marry someone who was not a human being. No green or blue aliens need ever 'court' me. &:o)
67. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:28 PM PT
About conversion, there is a midrash which tells us that at the moment of revelation at Sinai, all the Jewish souls in the world were present. Even the generations not yet born were present. Therefore, when someone convets to Judaism, the truth is that their soul was also at Sinai. Conversion is just a correction to what was meant to be. There is also a story of a secular man walking near the docks of Haifa one night. He sees a Hasidic man walking towards him and the Hasid's face is very interesting. The secular man finds himself staring until the Hasid says, "Do I know you?" The secular man answers,"Actually, I haven't seen you since Sinai." The Hasid replies, "Yes, of course. I should have recognized you but it was so hot and crowded."
68. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:58 PM PT
Is belief in reincarnation compatible with Judaism?
69. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:05 PM PT
ChristiPeters
Short answer, yes, many rabbis have written about it. Is it required? No. Many Jews don't believe in it.
70. darkviolet - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:10 PM PT
Re: Message #13
“uncertainty is the ordinary condition of life.” It is for a coward who does nothing in life except sit on their butt waiting to die. You probably can't tell there is anything wrong with evading the fundamental questions of what you should do and why you should do it.
“Now you and yours, amputated remainders, are consigned to self-isolation, poverty, backwardness, racism, the effects of racism, and a host of other ills routinely suffered by the downtrodden.”
Stupid woman, you have no idea how completely in your face I am. You and yours live only to serve me and mine, and will for generations. I am American to the core. I own your future.
71. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:21 PM PT
darkviolet
Are you some kind of Nazi?
72. darkviolet - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:27 PM PT
No, I don't belong to any chruch.
73. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:30 PM PT
Oh God. This thread is turning into shit like so many of them do.
74. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:35 PM PT
Seguine:
Re: 64
I can just imagine you retracting your ears into your head, and your head into your body as you wrote those words. My post stands, and your statement is nothing but the standard brushoff.
75. darkviolet - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:38 PM PT
I'm simply as American as any human can be, with all the "rights" associated with being absolutely American. The United States of America is *my* home. I was made by it; it was made for me. Now the world is being remade in the image of my home for my benefit. Everyone everywhere will speak my language and supply me with the products I desire for my American lifestyle. Or my countrymen will bomb the shit out of them until they do.
76. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:44 PM PT
FLASH! It is possible for Fraysters who believe themselves to be having a productive discussion to ignore posts made by idiots. However, cowardice is not allowed on the Fray, Seguine.
77. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:46 PM PT
What the hell is Drakviolet talking about? Why is she talking about how American she is in the Judaism thread?
78. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:49 PM PT
So jkuzmak,
ignoring the crazies who pop up occassionally, talk to us. Is there more than one right way to be a Jew?
79. darkviolet - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:51 PM PT
Re: Message #77
I was just slipping in a response to Seguine's comment that me and mine are "amputated remainders, are consigned to self-isolation, poverty, backwardness, racism, the effects of racism, and a host of other ills routinely suffered by the downtrodden." I was pointing out that me and mine actually pretty much own the planet.
80. CoralReef - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:52 PM PT
Message #61 is generalized pap. It doesn't "stand" as it was never proven or even supported. Her reply was perfectly suitable.
81. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:56 PM PT
Uzmak: "My post stands, and your statement is nothing but the standard brushoff."
Your post stands for nothing other than what it is.
But what did you want me to say, anyway? Am I now to defend every group of people against whatever idiotic insinuation you happen to squirt in my direction, or do you plan to stick to the Jews?
I'm sure you understand that no one who can read takes an ignoramus like you seriously.
82. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:00 PM PT
CoralReef
Of course it's pap. There is no rational structure to the rage against Jews which gripped European populations in varying degrees for the last thousand years or so. But I don't think that any forum on Judaism must turn into a discussion of anti-Semitism.
83. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:02 PM PT
"Stupid woman, you have no idea how completely in your face I am. You and yours live only to serve me and mine, and will for generations. I am American to the core. I own your future."
What the fuck?
Wait, I retract that. I simply forgot to employ Microsoft's Lunatic Filter 99 before reading your remarks.
84. darkviolet - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:12 PM PT
You need to upgrade to MSLF 6.2, idiot. You are out of touch with my times.
85. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:21 PM PT
ChristiPeters,
One interesting book you might try to get hold of, if it's still in print, is _The Wisdom of the Talmud: A Thousand Years of Jewish Thought_ by Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser (1951, Philosophical Library, NY). It's a fine overview of one of the main bodies of Jewish commentary on the Bible. (The Talmud and other rabbinic teachings, you may know already, is considered by most Jews to be of equal importance to the Torah and other OT scriptures.) I'll provide some quotes from it and perhaps other texts later on, if you're interested.
86. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:28 PM PT
The word "midrash" that justlooking used in Message #67 refers to learned commentary on the Bible, such as is found in the Talmud.
87. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:30 PM PT
Thanks Seguine.
I am getting quite a reading list from the Fray. On my list so far are:
The Pipe and Christ (ordered it from Amazon)
God in Search of Man
The Gnostic Gospels
When God Whispers Your Name
The Wisdom of the Talmud: A Thousand Years of Jewish Thought
Since I am not happy if I don't have anything interesting to read, I appreciate all suggestions.
88. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:37 PM PT
CP,
I suspect you'll notice some similarities between Gnosticism and Kabbalism.
89. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:39 PM PT
ChristiPeters
For something a little more accessible, you might try Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin. It's a good overall introduction to Judaism. You can get it from Amazon for $8.80
90. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:41 PM PT
It will take me awhile. I used to read a book a day. Then I became a mother and I only managed a book a week. Then I became a mother with a job outside the home. So now I average about 15 minutes a night for reading. You know, that period *after* I get Lil' Darlin' to bed and all the chores done and *before* I collapse meyself.
&:o)
91. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:43 PM PT
Thanks, justlooking.
92. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:43 PM PT
Coralreef, Seguine, and Justlooking:
Alas, my copy of Shahak is out of my library and I cannot refer to it. But he gives the names of several uprizings that fit my discription. Honestly, I find your reactions amusing, standard, expected. Jews really have a tough time discussing Israel or Judaism when the going gets tough and they are not allowed to take the postion of the vituous oppressed. Another thing, Boobies, I defy you to call me an anti semite. This is a standard line of crap when the argument is going against a Jew defending his undeniable virtue. Jews seem very similar to Thumpers when we consider the unconsiderable. Sorry, I don't take Jewish mythology as history.
93. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:43 PM PT
....myself....
94. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 2:53 PM PT
jkuzmak
I thought we were discussing the different approaches to Judaism and their validity. I don't know what you're point is. At no time did any of us refer to ourselves as virtuous oppressed. It's hard to look at European history without concluding that Jews were certainly a dispised or tolerated minority much of the time. That doesn't make us virtuous, just oppressed. I certainly don't see our situation in America as being the same as it was in Europe. Is it your contention that there is no valid approach to practicing Judaism? Or what?
95. dovidbaila - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:01 PM PT
Wait a minute, can we get back to the origional discussion. What do you think of Klinghoffers calims that he knows exactly what the so-called "G-d" did some 3000 years ago with some pre-historic antropoids, and he claims that this still has some validity today.
His black-and-white either/or approach to life sounds pretty obnoxious to me.
96. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:10 PM PT
"I don't take Jewish mythology as history."
No one here does either, boobie. But by the same token, no one here takes calumny as history. If you wish to assert that Jews brought on, through misdeeds, their own persecution throughout the centuries, then get specific, cite your sources, and explain while you're at it how Jews, or any group, can be so consistently *bad* as to deserve what in your calculation can only have been rough justice. If Jews as a people somehow were not righteous enough to have avoided expulsions, pogroms, and holocausts, then you must tell us who *was* righteous and whom Jews should have emulated to avoid such an ignominious fate.
To put it in the most basic terms for you: if it is absurd to believe in Jewish myths about Jewish virtuousness, then it is quite as absurd to assume that Jews have for ten centuries managed to "deserve" whatever they got. As I said before, Jews aren't "simply" anything.
BTW, I have to wonder why RustlerPike, someone who can be quite critical of religious Jews, of various aspects of Israeli policy and politics, and of the general claim of special virtue made on/by Jews, refuses to read the book you keep referencing.
97. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:10 PM PT
Justlooking:
Why in God's name would you ask me your last question?
98. Seguine - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:13 PM PT
"What do you think of Klinghoffers calims that he knows exactly what the so-called "G-d" did some 3000 years ago with some pre-historic
antropoids, and he claims that this still has some validity today."
Can you quote/point us toward that claim? I don't remember reading it. Or perhpas it came up in a more recent dispatch?
99. justlooking - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:15 PM PT
Because this thread is supposed to be about different approaches to Judaism. Your point seems to be that there are none. Do I misunderstand?
100. MrSocko - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:18 PM PT
PE is correct to recognise the historical distinction between the Gods of philosophy and religion. At the same time, I'm correct to describe these traditional religions as being in and of themselves primitive forms of philosophy. What else could they be? JUdaism and Christianity represent man's earlier attempts to understand where, how and why he lives in a semi-coherent fashion. This, then, is a "philosophical" approach.
By the way, the statement about Jewish mythology v. history is silly. Mythologies are extremely valuable additions to any body of work purporting to explain the progress of a particular human group. The story of Eden, say, is a crucial myth for anybody wishing to understand the mind-set of the ancient Hebrews.