1. FrayVader - May 15, 1998 - 1:12 PM PDT
Do you fear black helicopters? Do you think the Kennedy assasination was a huge cover-up? Does the media control our thinking? Are there aliens in our midst? Fraygrants always seem to be offering up the latest conspiracy theories. What better place than a thread for just this purpose. Check out the recent Slate articles on the Martin Luther King and David Hale conspiracies, and share your thoughts on these and other conspiracies right here.
2. TheDiva - May 15, 1998 - 1:14 PM PDT
Good God!
A thread just for Ad!!!!!!
3. JadeGold - May 15, 1998 - 1:16 PM PDT
A thread for tommyAmoron, HaleBopp109, and BoomBoom!!
4. CharlieL - May 15, 1998 - 1:21 PM PDT
Humpty Dumpty was pushed!
5. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 1:22 PM PDT
Diva - Ad's conspiratorial bent (a loooong time ago it seems - say - what IS the current take on the hapless Burton's [sic] weapons?) is just vanilla pudding to what some of the boys (Jade's pegged most of them, but is being kind) slush around in. (scratch HB109 though - he's just likes to toy around - like a cat with a little mouse between its front paws.)
Then...never mind.
6. trouserPilot - May 15, 1998 - 1:29 PM PDT
Does anyone think it's merely a coincidence that this thread was created when it was...?
7. 109109 - May 15, 1998 - 1:35 PM PDT
I know something about . . . (thud)
8. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 1:58 PM PDT
Aha. I thought so.
9. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 1:59 PM PDT
ok. Its been solved. This thread can now be killed.
10. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 2:03 PM PDT
Chuck: They threatened my family if I wouldn't do it!!
11. UnderCoverSquids - May 15, 1998 - 2:06 PM PDT
Wait! What about the dreaded gang of Fray?
The clique that decides who is allowed to be cool and who must endlessly suffer the ridicule of JadeFool?
And the endless denial of said gang by its supposed members?
And the way in which they take everything you write and somehow change the meaning until you get all confused and start arguing against yourself?
BAhhh!
(Woah, hold on, I didn't *mean* gang, per se, it was meant as more of like, a, um, group. But, awh, damn, I didn't *mean* group as in "more_than_one" but you know, like a whole bunch? Ya'know? Well, no, I didn't mean a whole bunch, like as in a "lot," but more like ....
help!)
12. vonKreedon - May 15, 1998 - 2:07 PM PDT
Anyone who would talk about conspiracies in an open thread like this is obviously not qualified to talk about conspiracies. [;-}
13. WinstonSmith - May 15, 1998 - 2:10 PM PDT
Has anyone ever considered that the fray could be a way for Microsoft to collect information about Internet users. They have our credit card information so they know where we live, our telephone numbers, credit history, etc. They can cut out the statements we post in the fray and add those to our dossiers as well. If any of us ever run for office they could sell our dossier to the highest bidder.
Big MS is watching you. (:
14. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:13 PM PDT
Some conspiracy theorists question not "the facts" so much as reason itself. James Shelby Downard, one of the most legendary conspiracy savants is one of those mad geniuses with a talent for making the most improbable, impossible, ludicrous and laughable speculations appear almost plausible, and his massive exegesis could be seen as the great American novel if he did not believe it to be true (and if Frank Norris' similarly themed "McTeague" had not been written). A self-described student of the "science of symbolism," Downard peels away the rational veneer of history and exposes an abyss of logic-defying synchronicities. Downard dwells upon a confluence of the familiar and the esoteric that, to him, forms a portrait of political conspiracy the purpose of which is not power or money, but alchemy, the mystical science of transformation. By breaking apart and rejoining elements, it was long ago supposed, alchemy could effect most any miracle (for example, changing base metal into gold). From ancient times through the Enlightenment, science and magic were one and the same. As far as Downard's concerned, the era when science was indistinguishable from sorcery never ended. Per Downard, the plotters are Freemasonic alchemists scheming for sovereignty over the realm of uncontrollable impulse. The relatively tame domains of politics, economics and ideology are mere means to that end. "Do not be lulled into believing," he warns, "that just because the deadening American city of dreadful night is so utterly devoid of mystery, so thoroughly flat-footed, sterile and infantile, so burdened with the illusory gloss of baseball-hot dogs-apple-pie-and-Chevrolet, that it exists outside the psycho-sexual domain. The eternal pagan psychodrama is escalated under these modern conditions precisely because sorcery is not what '20th Century man' can accept as real." Drawing up a brief primer of Downardism would be next to impossible, thou
15. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:15 PM PDT
Drawing up a brief primer of Downardism would be next to impossible, though I can give some examples of his amazing, sinewy logic:
"The United States which has long been called a melting pot, should more descriptively be called a witches' cauldron wherein the 'Hierarchy of the Grand Architect of the Universe' arranges for ritualistic crimes and psychopolitical psychodramas to be performed in accordance with a Master plan," he explains. That Master plan necessitates execution of three alchemical rites: the creation and destruction of primordial matter; the Killing of the King; and the "making manifest of all that is hidden." Shakespeare's MacBeth is a "Killing of the King" drama. MacBeth, who killed his king in accordance with a witches' (alchemists') plot and was himself later killed as part of the same schemata. The latter day reenactment of the MacBeth ritual, says Downard, was the assassination of JFK in Dealey Plaza, site of the first Masonic temple in Dallas and a spot loaded with "trinity" symbolism. "Three" is, for those not versed in such matters, the most magic of all magic numbers. Downard's observations include:
Dallas is located just south of the 33 degree of latitude. The 33rd degree is Freemasonry's highest rank
Kennedy's motorcade was rolling toward the "Triple Underpass" when he was slain by, according to some analysts, three gunmen. Three tramps were arrested right after the murder. Hiram Abiff, architect of Solomon's Temple and mythic progenitor of Freemasonry was murdered according to Masonic legend by three "unworthy craftsmen."
The MacBeth clan of Scotland had many variations of the family name. One was "MacBaine" or "Baines." Kennedy's successor was Lyndon Baines Johnson, a Freemason.
"Dea" in Latin means goddess. "Ley" in Spanish can refer to law or rule. "Dealey Plaza" was "godde
16. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:17 PM PDT
"Dea" in Latin means goddess. "Ley" in Spanish can refer to law or rule. "Dealey Plaza" was "goddess-rule" plaza.
Blamed for the assassination was a man named "Oz," explained by Downard as "a Hebrew term denoting strength." Divine strength is integral to the King-killing rite.
"Oz" was killed by "Ruby," just as the ruby slippers freed Dorothy from the land of Oz in The Wizard of Oz, "which one may deride as a fairy tale but which nevertheless symbolizes the immense power of 'ruby light' otherwise known as the laser."
Dealey Plaza is near the Trinity River, which before the introduction of flood control measures submerged the place regularly. Dealey Plaza therefore symbolizes both the trident and its bearer, the water-god Neptune.
"To this trident-Neptune site," writes Downard, "came the 'Queen of Love and Beauty' and her spouse, the scapegoat, in the Killing of the King rite, the 'Ceannaideach' (Gaelic word for Ugly Head or Wounded Head). In Scotland, the Kennedy coat of arms and iconography is full of folklore. Their Plant Badge is an oak and their Crest has a dolphin on it. Now what could be more coincidental than for JFK to get shot in the head near the oak tree at Dealey Plaza. Do you call that a coincidence?"
An earlier "Trinity Site," in New Mexico, was the location of the first atomic bomb explosion. Chaos and synergy, breaking apart and joining together are the first principles of alchemy. The atomic bomb broke apart the positive and negative (male and female) elements that compose primordial matter. Physicists refer to this fiendish trickery as "nuclear fission."
The New Mexico "Trinity" sits on the 33rd degree latitude line.
The Kennedy assassination's true significance was concealed by the Warren Commissionheaded by Freemason Earl Warren with Freemason Gerald For
17. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 2:19 PM PDT
oh boy - there's more to come! Thanks, Kurt.
18. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:20 PM PDT
The Kennedy assassination's true significance was concealed by the Warren Commission headed by Freemason Earl Warren with Freemason Gerald Ford as its public spokesman. The Commission drew its information from the FBI headed by Freemason J. Edgar Hoover and the CIA, which transmitted information through former director Freemason Allen Dulles who sat on the commission.
A decade later Ford, when president himself, was the target of an attempted assassination in front of the St. Francis Hotel, located opposite Mason Street in the City of St. Francis, San Francisco. Members of the Freemasonic "Hell Fire Club," site of many a sex orgy involving such luminaries as Freemason Benjamin Franklin, called themselves "Friars of St. Francis."
The St. Francis Hotel was also the site of sex orgies. On its premises occurred the rape- murder of Virginia Rappe by silent film comic Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle. Virginia Rappe's name is a variation on "virgin rape." The rape of a virgin is an important alchemical sex-magic rite.
The failed assasin of President Ford was a member of the Manson Family, whose famous murders occurred immediatly after the first moon landing (long acknowledged to involve Masonic ritual), a defilement of virgin territory.
The serpent is a Masonic symbol of King-Killing. The Symbionese Liberation Army, who kidnapped San Francisco newspaper heiress Patricia Hearst, pictured a serpent on their emblem.
The word "Symbionese" means "joined together." Patricia Hearst's grandfather, newspaper magnate William Randolph Hearst, built a vast estate called San Simeon (St. Simon) on La Cuest Encandata, The Enchanted Hill. On the estate is a "pool of Neptune" with a statue of Venus, the "Queen of Love and Beauty." The Hearst family joined together the San Francisco Chronicle and Examiner.
Of course, this only touches on the most superficial aspects of the alch
19. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:20 PM PDT
Of course, this only touches on the most superficial aspects of the alchemical conspiracy, not even mentioning Marylin Monroe's involvement in all this, or the elaborate fertility symbolism in the advertising war between the Avis and Hertz rental car companies. If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to post Downard's essay focussing specifically on Masonic symbolism in the Kennedy assasination, as it should be required reading for any American (for pure entertainment value, of course).
20. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:21 PM PDT
whew.
21. trouserPilot - May 15, 1998 - 2:27 PM PDT
What was that about baseball?
22. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 2:29 PM PDT
you mean that was the abridged version?
23. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 2:31 PM PDT
Lab:
That was the unbelievably dismembered, truncated, glossed-over version possible.
24. chloel - May 15, 1998 - 2:33 PM PDT
When's the movie coming out? and who's doing the soundtrack?
25. trouserPilot - May 15, 1998 - 2:36 PM PDT
this means something
Delta roundtrip to NYC: $298!
26. DanDillon - May 15, 1998 - 2:41 PM PDT
My sister's friend's cousin's maternal grandmother's step-son's brother's distant business contact's assistant's temp's little niece said that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson WEREN'T REALLY THE ACTORS IN THAT MOVIE!!!!!
27. DanDillon - May 15, 1998 - 2:41 PM PDT
What a dumb thread.
28. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 2:42 PM PDT
May I be excused?
My brain is full.
29. 109109 - May 15, 1998 - 2:44 PM PDT
I heard that . . . (thud).
30. DanDillon - May 15, 1998 - 2:48 PM PDT
Chris:
D'ja hear the story on NPR this afternoon about Texas schools and affirmative action? (Take it to News o' th'Day if you wanna gab.)
31. Random - May 15, 1998 - 3:03 PM PDT
Is Hillary trying to bump* Al Gore,
take the VP in order to run in 2000?
Read the Dick Morris "Hillary: Life
Saver or Power Grabber". Now on the
Drudge Report link.
*not bump off.
32. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 3:05 PM PDT
Hi Dan!
No I didn't. I did just check out NotD, though. Reps and Dems blaming each other for the state of the nation. Same old same old.........yawn.
So, have you noticed any strange clicks on your phone lines lately?
33. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 3:06 PM PDT
uh oh....33!
34. DanDillon - May 15, 1998 - 3:07 PM PDT
Nope, just conspiration. (That's "conspiracy" and "constipation," for those of you playing along at home.)
35. Random - May 15, 1998 - 3:08 PM PDT
FLASH: Signs (Billboards) "IMPEACH
CLINTON" dial 1-888-LEAVE DC.
I wonder who is behind this. Could
it be the US JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS
IN MOTION. General Reno has mastered
her computer? Maybe?
36. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 3:12 PM PDT
DAMN!
That means my wire-tap isn't working.
I don't suppose you'd be willing to record all your calls yourself and send them to me in a plain manila envelope?
37. Random - May 15, 1998 - 3:15 PM PDT
And the question is, who slipped
the Gale in drag into Clinton's
celebrate the Berlin Airlift party,
left poor Prez with his fly open
thanking the lady, Gale, profusely
only to have an old man stand up to
take the bow.
And was it the ghost of Ron Brown?
38. DanDillon - May 15, 1998 - 3:16 PM PDT
Here's a conspiracy: this thread will forever remain a joke. (Oh wait.... No, that's not a conspiracy, that's a substantiated fact!)
39. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 3:30 PM PDT
Now hold on Dan. Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean there's no one out to get them.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me exactly how the Clintons killled Vince Foster.(g)
40. Random - May 15, 1998 - 3:49 PM PDT
Would Jeff Gerth's NYT Article about
the $394. million that went into the
DNC & Clintons from the Red Chinese
PLA to pay for our guidance technology
cause Sherlock to wake Dr. Watson,
head out to Scotland Yard to answer
the questions? Is this a quid pro quo?
Is it treason? Why is India testing their
nukes to defend their country?
Copies of Dan Burton's letters to General
Reno, are running as open letters in many
papers as Burton headed to the JUSTICE
dept. to swap evidence today.
If Bill and Hill gave back the $394.
million gathered from Chinese Communists,
how did they go from being paupers to
claiming to be worth $5 million this
year? Hillary's book sales weren't
staggering and besides, the profits went to
charity.
This day has produced mysteries!
The biggest question of all is, "Will
Jeff Gerth get the pulitzer as many
believe for breaking this story."
I read the NYT is thinking Pulitzer.
Root for Jeff Gerth, mom's applie pie,
American Patriots and Veterans, Generals
McArthur, Montgomery, and Eisenhower,
and Jeff Gerth's pulitzer.
41. Random - May 15, 1998 - 3:52 PM PDT
Stonewall Henry Waxman says,
"If its true, it is disturbing."
Just heard that on the radio.
So there. Wonder if he will
agree to immunity for the four
witnesses?
42. Random - May 15, 1998 - 3:57 PM PDT
#39: Bill didn't do it, Hillary did.
You may believe she was in Arkansas
at the time, but she has agents and
emissaries. She left Craig Livingstone
behind and Craig was her boy that
got all the FBI files for her to
fill up her "Big Brother" computer.
Such fun, bye, bye liberals.
43. joezan - May 15, 1998 - 3:58 PM PDT
My favorite recently-heard conspiracy theory:
A guy I know told me the "real deal" behind the planned change for all U.S. currency...
The new water-marks contain a radioactive dye. This dye will allow "the government" to count stacks of money, no matter where you hide it - in your basement, in your barn, or buried in the ground.
They have simultaneously developed special x-ray equipment which, operated from - you got it - HELICOPTERS - will be able to determine the exact amount of money you have hidden.
The purpose of this new technology is to catch drug dealers and tax cheats.
44. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 4:04 PM PDT
Don't be silly Random.
Everyone knows that the Clintons are aliens from an evil super-race sent to help us destroy ourselves so that they can colonize the planet. It's how they keep getting away with all this outrageous shit that they pull.
Sheesh! I thought you of all people would be the first to note that they aren't human.
I'm so disappointed.
45. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:05 PM PDT
"this thread will forever remain a joke"
Quite likely. But Downard's alchemical scenariae are riddles magnitudes above the mechanistic political solutions offered by more pedestrian conspiracy researchers. Keep in mind that Christopher Marlowe was rewarded for researching alchemical secret-keeping for his play "Dr. Faustus" by being stabbed in the eye, having seen too much. The first two stages of Downard's apocalyptic trinity (creation and destruction of primordial matter, or the Trinity A-bomb tests, and the Killing of the King, Kennedy's assasination - which occured at the Triple Underpass, near the Trinity river and as with the bomb, near the 33rd degree line) are sealed, but the third (the Making Manifest of All That is Hidden) is only partially complete. This last Masonic feat involves the bringing of prima materia (moon rocks) to prima terra, a top priority of the Kennedy administration, which as fated to take place on the 28th degree line. 28 is sacred to Saturn and it was the Saturn Five rocket that boosted top Masons Armstrong and Aldrin (who brought the flag of the Knights Templar among other, more sinister objects, with him on board). The landing module was called the Columbia, which in Masonic Syntax translates as "Phoenix", and the craft was jettisonned into the surface of the sun after accomplishing its mission...a queer Rosicrucian allegory, no? The groundwork for these flights was laid by Dr. John Whiteside Parsons, a rocket fuel researcher (who had a lunar crater named after him), and one of the more fanatical and literal followers of Aleister Crowly's Ordo Templi Orientis who was devoted to the theory of the practice of 'magica sexualis' (rites which were repeatedly alluded to in previous posts). The OTO had a temple on Palomar mountain several years before supposedly 'dispassionate scientists' chose it, the OTO's sexual chakra of the earth, as the Big Eye on the universe. In 1952, Parsons was blown up
46. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:06 PM PDT
The OTO had a temple on Palomar mountain several years before supposedly 'dispassionate scientists' chose it, the OTO's sexual chakra of the earth, as the Big Eye on the universe. In 1952, Parsons was blown up in what has been officially described as an accident, a homunculus experiment gone bonkers. A similar homunculus (written about in much midieval alchemy) experiment took place using the radiation produced during the, yup, first atomic blast. Downard speculates that the Manson murders were redressment for the defiling of the moon (a belief shared at the time by the Zuni Indians, among others, who predicted that the 'rape' of the traditional guardian-diety of female fertility would bring plagues of sterility to prima terra).
The notion that politicians, scientists, generals, etc, are as steeped in superstition as the early alchemists is, naturally, hard to digest. And that's part of the impact of Downard's writings, laid out in many of its details near Shakespeare, New Mexico (note the MacBeth significance from the earlier posts), just as much planning for the Kennedy "hit" was allegedly done in the Storyville section of New Orleans. Another key city in all three scenarios is, of course, Truth Or Consequences, New Mexico, which ties into the "revelation of the method", the final part of the 3-stage ritual, wherin secure secrets are slowly revealed to the unsuspecting populace who watch in apathy as hidden history is unveiled. Which brings us back, metaphorically, to Marlowe and the knife in his eye. Coincidence? Very likely. Joke? Certainly amusing. Food for thought? definitely. At least, it's good for the thread.
47. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:08 PM PDT
(and I haven't even *begun* to address the implicit "Gog / Magog" dispensationalist theology inherent in the Cuban Missile Crisis!!!) (g)
48. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 4:11 PM PDT
Kurt, it's really rather facinating.
A friend of mine recently read a book or series of articles or something explaining how the Christ worshipped today is actually the wrong one. It was some Masonic plan that went awry.
Are you familiar with this at all? She was really REALLY excited at the time and I didn't catch much.
49. trouserPilot - May 15, 1998 - 4:14 PM PDT
What's this about Phoenix?
50. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 4:16 PM PDT
Kurt:
"The notion that politicians, scientists, generals, etc, are as steeped in superstition as the early alchemists is, naturally, hard to digest"
Well, I don't know that they would neccessarily have to superstitious. Little as I know about war games and governmental agencies and plans it seems that there is a..........gee, how do I put this.
You know how kids get all excited about secret clubs and the Arthurian legend and passwords and synchonicity? Seems to me that our government could be no less excited by it. There is something so incredibly childlike about it. Unfortunately the games they play affect the real world, but it often seems as if they don't notice.
Or I could be completely wrong............It's been known to occur.(g)
51. thoughtful - May 15, 1998 - 4:16 PM PDT
Kurt, the really scary part of all that is that, the other day while flipping channels (was I in TX at the time? Buckle o'the Bible Belt country?) and I ran across Pat Robertson. Uncharacteristically, I listed to him for about 15 sec. -- just enough to pick up an earful of him raging against secret, evil societies, including, yup, the Masons!
52. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:18 PM PDT
Christin:
Well, that's the thing about these varying theories...I know the one about the Mark of the Beast and the False Messiah, and I know the one about the Christian Theory of Occult Conspiracy, but I don't know the one you're thinking of....it's pretty likely that at some point they've all sort of amalgamated into each other, in most cases.
53. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:22 PM PDT
thoughtful:
Well, it kind of goes without saying that often the need for secrecy in secret societies exists in the need for sanctuary for a persecuted theology...look at the Gnostics, for instance. Funny you should bring up Robertson immediatly after my "Magog" dispensationalist reference (Robertson is reportedly a 'post-tribulation' dispensationalist). Hmmm....
54. thomasd - May 15, 1998 - 4:23 PM PDT
JadeGold - May 14, 1998 - 1:05 PM PDT
thomasd;
I don't think so.
Drinking during work hours (or really, anytime) to the
point where one's judgement is impaired is indicative of a
problem. I don't believe 30% of American workers have
your problem.
Imagine going into your boss and telling him or her that
the mistake you made on that memo was because you
"had a few." I know what my reaction would be.
55. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:25 PM PDT
thomasd:
huh?
56. thomasd - May 15, 1998 - 4:26 PM PDT
12426. JadeGold - May 13, 1998 - 11:41 AM PDT
thomasd;
It figures you wouldn't be embarrassed by Burton. Even
Noot, who has no shame, stated that he was
embarrassed by Burton's conduct.
I believe the Dems are making a mistake by trying to oust
Burton. He's the Dems' best friend. Each time, Burton
gets on CSPAN or Meet the Press or any media venue,
he acutely highlights that this is the best that the Repugs
can do for leadership.
To recap the Repug leadership vacuum:
Noot: Speaker of the House - reprimanded and fined for
lying and other unethical acts
Strom Thurmond: Chair of Armed Forces Committee -
unrepentant racist who is now so old and decrepit that he
makes Reagan look lucid.
Jesse Helms: Chair of Foreign Relations - Jesse Helms,
KKK.
Bud Shuster: House Appropriations Chair - Kind of like
letting a junkie guard the pharmacy.
Dan Burton: House Oversight - Melonhead. Mentally ill.
57. thomasd - May 15, 1998 - 4:28 PM PDT
Re. 55 -
Posts like these are a 'natural' in this thread.
58. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 4:58 PM PDT
Oh. I just see some isolated disparaging comments. Just out of curiosity, can you demonstrate how these can be read as particularly conspiratorial?
59. joezan - May 15, 1998 - 5:00 PM PDT
Kurt:
You are obviously spending WAY too much time in this...ahem, field of study.
...but, you're right. It's good for the thread!
60. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 5:11 PM PDT
I'm particularly fond of the conspiracy to boost hot dog sales. Differing numbers of dog per pack to buns per pack cause major frustration.
My mother refused to be cowed. We ate hot dogs in tortillas.
61. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 5:15 PM PDT
(Mondaugen fights the urge to crack the requisite 'Fido burrito' joke)
62. phillipdavid - May 15, 1998 - 5:17 PM PDT
If Kurt dissappears, we can all guess the reasons why.
63. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 5:17 PM PDT
KurtMondaugen:
do it, do it
64. KurtMondaugen - May 15, 1998 - 5:19 PM PDT
Actually, Azure, considering what thread this is, maybe I should say Hoffa burrito.
65. ChristinO - May 15, 1998 - 5:21 PM PDT
Purty pleeze, Kurt?
66. joezan - May 15, 1998 - 5:26 PM PDT
Some years ago, I had occasion to talk with an incarcerated juvenile who had converted to Islam, Farrakhan-style. He had been converted in one of his many visits to his older brother, who was doing life for murder.
We had developed, over a few months, a very good rapport. So, one day he decided to share with me the Secret Book, which, according to him, only full-fledged citizens of the Nation of Islam may read.
Well, along with the usual Farrakhan numerology-backed paranoia (which was indecipherable), this book contained a chapter on the Powers of the Number 24, which, for me, brought numerology to new heights of silliness.
The chapter talked about the not-so-coincidental relationship between the: 1) Number of hours in a day. 2) Number of miles around the earth (24,000). 3) Number of miles to the moon (240,000). "Do you think this could possibly be a coincidence?", the writer asked.
Well, of course not! What this all led up to, (after many more divisions, multiplications and combinations), was that the NOI is the Lost Tribe of Israel, and Louis F. was here to lead them from the land of the white demons, to the Promised Land.
Of course, I felt it my duty to point out to this kid that, measurements of time, space, etc, being wholly human constructs - what would happen if you used, say, kilometers instead of miles.
So much for that great rapport.
67. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 5:28 PM PDT
I thought it was cat cat I say cat burritos. CAT.
Mon - you are far more...aware...of...goings on....than I thought.
68. spudboy - May 15, 1998 - 6:55 PM PDT
Kurt Mondaugen: Living Proof That Thomas Pynchon Warps Minds
69. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 6:58 PM PDT
Yes - those sjamboks do tend to have their impact.
Actually - spuds - this thread must seem oldhat to you.
70. lemwalker - May 15, 1998 - 7:01 PM PDT
It is all one great conspiracy against me. Why else would I be stuck on this planet with such intellectuals? An immense universe, and confined to one sheep ridden planet. Oh alas and alack, good thing not to try.
71. WinstonSmith - May 15, 1998 - 7:49 PM PDT
Joezan, RE: 66
That reminds me of a story I heard on NPR about Scientology. It said that after you pay for enough classes and rise high enough in the church, you get to see the secret book that tells how aliens once came to the earth.
72. CharlieL - May 15, 1998 - 7:59 PM PDT
Not "aliens" plural. Only one alien: Strom Thurmond.
73. 109109 - May 15, 1998 - 8:06 PM PDT
Charlie
They used to have to line Strom's suit pockets with plastic because when he went to receptions. he'd stuff meats in 'em for later (oh wait, that might be an urban myth . . . (thud)).
74. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 8:32 PM PDT
All those thuds aren't good for the head and might explain some of those synapse thingies, 109duplicitiously. You should stop thinking so hard.
75. 109109 - May 15, 1998 - 8:40 PM PDT
Lab
What? Who are you? How did that girl get there?
76. joezan - May 15, 1998 - 8:59 PM PDT
WinstonSmith:
Oh, ho, my friend!
Aliens are not all one may find in the upper echelons of scientology.
After one attains the level of which you spoke, if one pays enough money to reach the highest level, one gets to be privy to the "Highest Truth"....
...this truth being...
L. Ron Hubbard is God!
(Remember that the next time your wife mentions how "good looking all these scientology guys are").
77. joezan - May 15, 1998 - 11:11 PM PDT
?????Strom Thurmond's a scientologist?????
78. WinstonSmith - May 16, 1998 - 1:24 PM PDT
Joezan, LOL!
Any Scientologists out there who know the real story?
BTW, On the NPR show there was a guy who said that someone got in big trouble because they published the secret book on the Internet.
79. spudboy - May 16, 1998 - 1:37 PM PDT
Kurt: Well, as you know, I get to deal in conspiracy theories a great deal. I'm only roughly familiar with Downard but know of others like him who do not so easily fit into the pedestrian mold of fevered, basement-dwelling wacko (Holocaust denier David Irving springs to mind).
Actually, of course, we do know that conspiracies exist. They have existed throughout history, and probably will continue to do so. We've seen a couple of important historical ones play out in our lifetimes.
But we also know some things about the nature of conspiracies as well, things that arise out of the necessity for secrecy for success, which is in a conspiracy's nature. We know that they are limited in scope -- they may have extremely powerful ends as the goal, but they typically are focused on only specific short-term objectives. We know they are short-lived -- able to last only a few years at best (this is particularly the case nowadays, when the monetary/fame incentives for blowing the whistle is so great). And we know that they rarely go undetected over the longer term.
Downard's hypothesis does not fit these criteria at all, of course. I've seen similar theories, though, of surprising depth and complexity. I have rather enjoyed reading some of the Masonic theories regarding the Jack the Ripper case. Interesting stuff, kind of fun to chew on, but hardly convincing for a skeptic.
80. spudboy - May 16, 1998 - 1:45 PM PDT
I think the following passage from David Greenberg's Slate article is important for consideration in any discussion of the Masons and conspiratorial beliefs (it's a nice distillation of scholarly research on the subject):
"Modern conspiracism is almost a thousand years old. Pipes, in a book called Conspiracy: How the Paranoid Style Flourishes and Where It Comes From, pinpoints the Crusades of the 11th century--the wars waged by Europe's Christians on the Muslims who controlled Palestine--as its first mass outbreak. To legitimize their attacks, Crusaders demonized their Muslim foes--not hard to do, since the Muslims had a competing empire and religion of vast size and power. But Europe's Jews, too, had to be converted or killed. How to justify the eradication of a weak and numerically insignificant group? The Crusaders convinced themselves the Jews were a secret cabal with insidious powers, out to destroy Christendom.
"Besides this anti-Semitism, Pipes identifies a second, related strain in Western conspiracist thought: fear of secret societies. This variety focused on small groups (other than Jews) whose rituals seemed mysterious and whose beliefs seemed threatening to Christianity. Masons--professional stonecutters--were the earliest targets. Since medieval times, masons had devised confidential phrases and handshakes to recognize fellow craftsmen and protect their trade secrets from outsiders. During the Enlightenment, their guilds became clubs for discussing the new liberal ideas of deism and toleration (and also came to include nonstonecutters as members). Religious authorities feared that, within their lodges, the Masons, too, were plotting Christianity's doom. ... (cont'd)
81. spudboy - May 16, 1998 - 1:46 PM PDT
... "Pipes contends these two strains of conspiracism co-existed and intermingled over the years, giving rise to various fantasies of global schemes. Typically, these fantasies have centered on such staples as the Bavarian Illuminati (a Masonlike order founded in 1776), the Rothschilds (a Jewish banking family of the 18th century) and, later, the Council on Foreign Relations (a bunch of foreign-policy wonks who meet on East 68th Street)."
In other words, Kurt, modern-day conspiratorial thinking is ultimately descended from the reactionarism of the status quo, particularly during the Enlightenment, in resisting most of the innovations that we have since come to think of as democratic society.
82. KurtMondaugen - May 16, 1998 - 2:45 PM PDT
Spudly:
As ever, excellent post, which elaborates nicely on points I touched on extremely briefly earlier. The conjunction of 'secret societies' and the fuzzy world of conspiracy theory seems hopelessly blurred; it is impossible for any of the 'basement wackos' to erase from the mind the thought that *any* group proceeding under vows of secrecy *must* somehow be implicated in political intrigue. Determining the nature and history of most secret societies is difficult, but some evidence is usually available. Likewise, proofs of conspiracy rely on such convoluted systems of inference that the field is generally reduced to dedicated inconsequencial individuals with nothing to lose, or political groups with a chip on their collective shoulder. Ironic, isn't it, that while the supposed conspiracies (or Conspiracy) has left so few (if any) traces, the conspiracy watchers have buried themselves under a mountain of paper and ink.
Speaking of paper and ink, there are some interesting references available re: the Jack the Ripper/Freemasonry connection. Most notably Stephen Knight's "Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution".
83. spudboy - May 16, 1998 - 3:02 PM PDT
Yeah, that was the book I was referring to. Nice piece of work. Thoroughly documented. Kind of a beautiful piece of artifice. I've encountered the material about the pentagram and the layout of London applied similarly to Washington, D.C., among the militia types. Good for a laugh in that setting, but it reminds me to be cautious about believing in Knight's theories too. (I really did enjoy all the info about the Roman subarchitecture in London, though.)
84. cigarlaw - May 16, 1998 - 3:40 PM PDT
Two days before she died, Sinatra kicked Marilyn Monroe out of the Cal-Neva frearing she would OD there. Frank knew and followed the Kennedy's. Did Frank know that Bobby wanted her out of the way? Did he have advance word of her murder vand did not want to be connected? Did he really die of a heart attack or was he ready to spill the beans on the Kennedy/Mafia connection?
85. spudboy - May 16, 1998 - 4:35 PM PDT
Actually, cigar, I heard he had a video of Clinton and Lewinsky doing it.
Look, we all know that Marilyn was really killed by Elvis after they gave him that alien brain implant, doing the bidding of his Mafia/cyborg masters. He's still around, I hear. Indeed, I bet he smothered poor Frank in his sleep. "Family by his side" indeed! (You know, O.J. ought to consider Elvisborg as a suspect in his search for "the real killer" while he's at it. Beats golf.)
86. StanGorsian - May 16, 1998 - 4:45 PM PDT
Don-t these things allways happen in threees,? Two great singers- Frank Sinatara and Linda MacCartny-- whose next,!!??
87. cigarlaw - May 16, 1998 - 4:48 PM PDT
Spud: No, Monica and I have copies of the video. Being a Californio, I know Monica quite well. I have it on the best of authority that Bill had nothing to do with it. Hillary did it.
88. StanGorsian - May 16, 1998 - 4:50 PM PDT
No-- Nanncy Reagen did it,! She just forgot to drag the body to a public park and put a suiside note next to it,!
89. cigarlaw - May 16, 1998 - 5:48 PM PDT
Stantheman: Nancy couldn't have done it. She was with Henry Kissenger and horse-face at the time.
90. AdamSelene - May 16, 1998 - 8:33 PM PDT
Hey, I live in Columbia, MD. Why can't I see a street sign or recognizable address in any of Linda Tripps' tv shots? Who's hiding what here?
91. Stumbo - May 16, 1998 - 8:45 PM PDT
Perhaps Stan's criminal Armenian grandparents did it. In ex-Soviet Armenia today, there no longer exists a single Tripp.
92. ChristinO - May 18, 1998 - 11:33 AM PDT
Spud: Message #83 I thought D.C. was planned to look like a wagon-wheel. Shit! All this time it was a cover for a pentagram and I never knew it. I was LIED TO!! I was SET UP!!! I'll never trust again!!!!
93. Sasquatch - May 19, 1998 - 8:05 AM PDT
Now that "Philistine" has allowed the true Religion out of the proverbial bag, Sasquatch would like all members of the Slate Fray to know that the big Conspiracy has always been what is today referred to as "Christianity". As "Philistine" has correctly point out in "The Fraygrants Corner" threading, little more than a month remains. Convert to the true cause.
94. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:11 PM PDT
Readers in the “McCarthyism” thread may have already seen my posts (30-32) there about the 1940s' Canwell Committee, a Washington state legislative panel that, like HUAC and the McCarthy hearings later, was fueled by conspiracy theories about Communist infiltration of society and fears of a “Communist takeover.” I mentioned that I had done considerable research on these events and the history of such conspiracy theories, as well as that of their primary promoters -- the old radical right, including the Klan and the Silver Shirts -- in the Pacific Northwest.
Conspiracy theories have abounded here too for years; one of the longest-lived was the belief, beginning in the early 1900s, that Japan had designs on America's West Coast for colonization, and that immigrants to our shores from that nation were actually “shock troops” paving the way (through moral turpitude, you know) for the ultimate invasion of the coast by Japanese forces.
Of course, this was part of the larger “Yellow Peril” story line, which was chiefly promoted by the Hearst newspapers. The Hearst stories, which played on Westerners' fears of being “swamped” by a wave of Asian immigration, focused largely on Chinese immigrants but promulgated the “Japanese invasion” theory as well. These stories, which had considerable impact in the rural areas where many Japanese tried making a living, are largely credited with getting the 1919 Alien Land laws passed in California, which forbade Japanese immigrants from either owning land or ever becoming U.S. citizens. ... (cont'd)
95. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:12 PM PDT
Another of this “invasion” theory's chief promoters was a publisher named Miller Freeman, based in Seattle, whose string of trade publications were very popular with the working class, especially along the West Coast (I think Pacific Fisherman was one of the best-selling magazines around). Freeman could be found ranting about the Emperor's plot in the editorials of these magazines throughout most of their history until WWII. Freeman also was an influential Republican legislator and state committeeman, so it was not surprising to see him lead the charge in 1921 to pass Washington's own version of the Alien Land Laws.
Nor was it surprising -- considering that his rants against Japan started reaching a fever pitch by 1940 -- to see Miller leading the charge for internment of Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor. Not only was Freeman a chief speaker at congressional hearings on the internment in Seattle, but he appears to have been a central influence in the creating the widely held view that “the Japs” were simply not to be trusted. The man who most historians credit/blame as the driving force behind the internment, Maj. Gen. John DeWitt, chief of the Western Command based in San Francisco, was actually quoting Freeman when he uttered the now-infamous (at the time, it was considered sagacious) line, “Once a Jap, always a Jap.” Moreover, much of DeWitt's own logic on the issue of the Japanese appears to have been extracted almost directly from any number of Freeman's editorials -- and Freeman and DeWitt in fact exchanged correspondence over the years, including the 1930s (I've examined the letters in Freeman's archives, which are in the University of Washington's special collections). ... (cont'd)
96. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:13 PM PDT
... Freeman was also a civic leader. He moved to the Bellevue area, across Lake Washington from Seattle, in the 1920s and became a major booster for the Eastside. He was one of the leaders in getting the Lake Washington Floating Bridge, extending from Seattle to Bellevue, built in 1940. Of course, by that time he was already one of the major landowners on the Eastside. Prior to then, Bellevue, by virtue of its location, had been a very quiet town whose chief product was the strawberries grown by Japanese farmers -- who, thanks to the Alien Land Law, couldn't own the land they farmed, but who nonetheless made the area habitable by converting former stumplands into arable property, and then moving on to another tract once the white landlord raised the rent. But the construction of the bridge changed all that; suddenly, Bellevue was primed to become an ideal suburb from which downtown Seattle workers could commute with ease. So there was more than ample motive for Freeman and others to urge the forced removal of all Japanese from West Coast when the opportunity presented itself.
Indeed, the hysteria following Pearl Harbor played on the very same conspiratorial fears that Freeman and others had successfully planted in the previous years. A Japanese farmer burning his fields for spring planting gave unintentional birth to stories of “arrows of fire” set by “Japs” that were aiming in the direction of the Lake Washington Shipyard in Kirkland. In short order other such “arrows of fire” were seen pointing to Boeing's bomber-building facilities. (The FBI investigated and found that all of these stories were hoaxes.) Some Japanese farmers liked to hang tin scraps on a string to discourage birds, and these also were seen as signals to incoming bombers. ... (cont'd)
97. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:15 PM PDT
... Indeed, the conspiratorial mindset has since then found a special home in the Northwest. I should mention, of course, the fact the first flying-saucer sightings -- Kenneth Arnold's in 1952 -- were over Washington's Cascade Mountains. And of course, we're home to the Sasquatch.
A Seattle-based sociologist named Otto Larsen in 1958 conducted a study of this propensity titled, “Diffusion and Belief in a Collective Delusion: The Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic” (American Sociological Review, April 1958). I'd like to offer the following excerpts from it:
While individuals may at times lose touch with reality as their culture defines it, whole communities ordinarily do not. Yet instances are on record when this has very nearly happened: people in Mattoon, Illinois, believed for a few days in September 1945 that a “phantom anesthetist” was prowling their town; and a Martian invasion took place in the minds of many persons in the New York City area on October 30, 1938. Russia's Sputniks may be expected to give rise to a wide variety of mass hallucinatory phenomena similar to those that followed our first H-bomb explosions in March, 1954. This paper analyzes one sych reaction: the windshield pitting epidemic that broke out in Seattle, Washington, in the Spring of 1954.
Beginning March 23, 1954, Seattle newspapers carried intermittent reports of damage to automobile windshields in a city 80 miles to the north. Police suspected vandalism but were unable to gather proof. On the morning of April 14, newspapers reported windshield damage in a town about 65 miles from Seattle; that afternoon cars in a naval air station only 45 miles from the northern limits of the city were “peppered.” On the same evening the first strike occurred in Seattle itself: between April 14 and 15, 242 persons telephoned the Seattle Police Department reporting damage to over 3,000 automobiles. ... (cont'd)
98. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:16 PM PDT
Many of these calls came from parking lots, service stations, and so on. Most commonly, the damage reported to windshields consisted of pitting marks that grew into bubbles in the glass about the size of a thumbnail. On the evening of the 15th, the Mayor of Seattle declared the damage was no longer a police matter and made an emergency appeal to the Governor and President Eisenhower for help. Many persons covered their windshields with floor mats or newspaper; others simply kept their automobiles garaged. Conjecture as to cause ranged from meteoric dust to sandflea eggs hatching in the glass, but centered on possible radioactive fallout from the Eniwetok H-bomb tests conducted earlier that year. In support of this view many drivers claimed that they found tiny, metallic-looking particles about the size of a pinhead on their car windows. Newspapers also mentioned the possibility that the concern with pitting might have sprung largely from mass hysteria: people looking at their windshields for the first time, instead of through them. On April 16, calls to police dropped from 242 to 46; 10 persons called police on the 17th, but from the 18th on no more calls were received about the subject of pitting ...
On June 10th, the University of Washington Environmental Research Laboratory, assigned by the Governor in April to investigate the pitting, issued its report. This report, prepared by a chemist, stated that there was no evidence of pitting that could not be explained by ordinary road damage: “The number of pits increases with the age and mileage of the car.” The puzzling little black particles found on many automobiles turned out under analysis to be cenospheres, formed by improper combustion of bituminous coal. According to the report, “Cenospheres are not new to Seattle. They have been observed in years past and they can be observed in cars in downtown Seattle today. They are incapable of pitting windshields by impact or otherwise.” ... (con
99. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:18 PM PDT
In its key passage the report concludes: “Although there is a considerable body of testimony from reputable witnesses to the effect that windshields were pitted by some mysterious cause in the space of a few minutes or hours during the “epidemic,” it has not been possible to substantiate a single one of these statements by scientific observation. Actually, the observed facts tend to contradict such statements.”
[Larsen and his coauthor went on to explore the means by which the windshield-pitting was spread (word of mouth and news media) and observed the levels of skepticism about the pitting theories or lack thereof as the story progressed, especially as it dropped dramatically from the public headlines. They came to the following conclusion:]
... The perception of windshield pitting, and the magical activities associated with this perception, succeeded in bringing to a focus and in reducing diffuse anxieties that may have served to heighten susceptibility to the delusion in the first place. The widespread association of windshield pitting with the H-bomb explosions points again to these as possible sources of the anxiety ... (cont'd)
100. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:19 PM PDT
... The windshield pitting epidemic may have relieved diffuse anxieties built up by this situation in three ways. First, it focused these anxieties on a narrower area of experience, automobile windshields. Phenomena that had long passed unnoticed in the periphery of awareness -- cenospheres, or small sooty particles on cars; nicks and pits in windshields -- now became charged with new significance. Second, the pitting epidemic may have loosened the tensions growing out of the fixation coming out of the inevitable coming blow: something was bound to happen to us as a result of the H-bomb tests -- windshields became pitted -- it's happened -- now that threat is over. Third, the magical practices that accompanied the epidemic -- for example, calling the police, appealing to the Governor and the President for help, covering windshields and cleaning them -- all these activities served to give people the sense that they were “doing something” about the danger that existed.
Extinction of the windshield pitting epidemic, following this interpretation, occurred not because of a wave of contrasuggestibility, but rather because the pitting, as a new, non-institutionalized anxiety-provoking situation, was given symbolic recognition and magical control.
To the extent that this type of hypothesis is supported by further research, it follows that to correct mass delusions one should not wait confidently for a wave of contrasuggestion to gather force. Nor does subsiding public concern with a delusion indicate a rejection of it in favor of reality. Reality itself will be given a magical definition so long as the anxieties that the magic symbolizes are not or cannot be dealt with through rational control.
101. spudboy - May 19, 1998 - 12:19 PM PDT
Whew. Hope I didn't bore you all to death. That last sentence is the most significant, of course.
102. harper - May 19, 1998 - 1:40 PM PDT
ChristinO Message #39
No, no! Linda Tripp killed Vince Foster!
103. harper - May 19, 1998 - 1:57 PM PDT
Have you ever wondered why the Pentagon is built with 5 sides? Of course, you can fit a pentagram within a pentagon and we *all* know about pentagrams.... Five is another magical number.
Kurt -- terrific post(s). There are *no* coincidences.
For a really good conspiracy theory, try "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." It has *everything* in it -- Knights Templar, Masons, Rosicrucians, etc. You name it. Or try the two-part documentary by Lawrence Gardner on the Knights Templar that airs on the History Channel or Discovery Channel. It's right up there with "Holy Blood, Holy Grail."
104. ChristinO - May 19, 1998 - 4:50 PM PDT
Spuds: Not boring at all. Facinating!
105. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 5:41 PM PDT
spudboy -
Your accounts of Northwest conspiracies were especially interesting and informative for me as local history. Thanks!
Your discussion of the internment of Japanese in WA also reminded me of something important I learned from the essay PseudoErasmus wrote for the Fray Apr 6. In it he argued that the Japanese would not have surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima, but instead would have fought on to the death to defend the divinity of the Imperial throne. He highlighted a dramatic and very intriguing difference between the prevailing Japanese and American worldviews that I was unaware of, but may have been more common knowledge at the time, and that would explain some of the hysteria expressed in the phrase, "Once a Jap, always a Jap." The insight has made me pause to consider what unknown motivations may be behind other apparently hysterical viewpoints.
106. KurtMondaugen - May 19, 1998 - 9:00 PM PDT
spudly:
LOL at the "pitting" episode, and thanks for your customary quality. Have you read Mackay's invaluable "Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"? It's a wealth of information on the type of phenomena you've described. Of course, I can't help but take a bit of pride in the NW's seeming monopoly on all things 'kooky', and in accordance with the 'pitting' story, turn on KING-5 tonight and tell me anything's changed.
107. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 9:10 PM PDT
The Northwest is certainly no kookier than Texas, and David Koresh, Jack Ruby, Charles Whitman, Ivan Stang, and I will fight to the death to prove it!
After all, how many historic trees in Seattle have been poisoned by deranged lovesick amatuer witches?
I thought so!
108. Stumbo - May 19, 1998 - 9:17 PM PDT
Spuds:
Wasn't there a similar story about suddenly-accelerating Audis?
109. Wombat - May 20, 1998 - 11:36 AM PDT
Glad to see some parts of the country make New York City seem "normal."
110. dhenrich - May 21, 1998 - 4:16 PM PDT
I have always enjoyed conspiracy theories because they display such optimism about human abilities. While the rest of us may think that humans lack the loyalty, discretion, overall intelligence and management skills to pull off a conspiracy with the depth and breadth of the Illuminta theory, our ever hopeful theorist say, "No,we have the ability!"
While the rest of us may think that the more people in a group, the more likelihood that something will go wrong, the conspiracy theorist believes that literally millions of people can work together smoothly and virtually without detection. Everytime I read of great theories like the moon rocks, the Kennedys and the number33 (which was also the age of Christ when he was crucified), I feel a warm glow knowing that someone thinks so highly of humanity.