1. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 5, 1998 - 6:53 PM PT
I've created this thread through inspiration from a discussion in the “US Midterm Elections” thread, an article in Slate and the following post in the Suggestions thread:
18067. trouserPilot - Nov. 5, 1998 - 1:19 PM PT
Irv
I like the suggestion for a "Ballot Propositions" thread. Some possible topics, most of which have already been aired in other threads:
• Did Prop. 13 ruin California?
• Why Athenian democracy may be ill-suited to a population of 4 million, 25 million, or 250 million.
• How to clamp down on the Prop. glut.
• How much latitude should Legislatures have in "refining" publicly passed measures (a big one in AZ)?
• Why it's brainless to boycott propositions by voting "no" on all of them when sometimes state constitutions require popular votes for certain kinds of measures etc.
I'll let these three inspirations serve as my talking points.
2. jexster - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:21 PM PT
Thanks IRV for the new thread.
I, foremost proponent of NO on YES, will kick it off with Prop 13, a repost from the US Elections Thread. Prop 13 both illustrates the folly of public legislation and was the father of our present initiative lunacy.
3023. jexster - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:03 PM PT
Cart,
You've been suckered by Pete Wilson Propaganda. Immigrants are not the reason our schools suck. Class room size is not the reason our classrooms are falling apart. The system of publicly funded education is not the reason our schools produce semi-literate graduates.
Savings on your property tax bill are.
3. jexster - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:24 PM PT
3024. jexster - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:05 PM PT
[cont]
Prop 13 exposes, as do scores of other propositions, the real evils of the initiative process. Without doubt there was a problem with escalating paper property values causing property tax increases, but you homeowners got quite a handsome windfall. Thanks. You handsomely funded my uncle's retirement, property purchased in Portola Valley circa 1966.
4. jexster - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:29 PM PT
But all the Prop and its tax limiting sons did was cut the funding. No reforms to the system and most importantly no sources of alternative funding.
We pay teachers nothing. Wilson says cut class size ie find more people willing to teach rugrats for $25K a year with no home equity to borrow on.. Wilson says we have incompetent teachers. Wilson says we need teacher competancy reviews - on 25K a year. Wilson cannot pay for all this because there is no money. Wislon says blame the immigrants. The Republicans say learn English.
BULL!
Prop 13 addressed, imperfectly, only one of a series of interrelated problems. I say why not tax the capital gain on the property you bought in exchange for property tax relief.
5. jexster - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:38 PM PT
Point is Prop 13 cut the funds for public education in CA but did nothing to make the system of public education more efficient to make up for the cut.
Nothing re: class size. Nothing re: immigrant education. Nothing re: teacher standards.
A comprehensive solution should have been developed by California's governor and legislature
Prop 13 like most state and local initiatives harms representative democracy and our kids, indeed all of us.
6. cigarlaw - Nov. 5, 1998 - 10:18 PM PT
the initiative system in california has become just a method for conservsatives to repress people (Prop 8; prop 115; 3- strikes) and for liberals to try to pass increases by taxing minorities (prop 10,)
originally a populist mechanism it has become a tool of special interests and is fundamentally contrary to repblican ideals upon which this country was founded.
this year i voted from out of town. my wife did not bring the arguments so i actually had to read the props to see what i was voting on. they are too complex. the law says that an initiative can only deal with a single topic. our fascist supreme court abandoned that notion with prop 115 to give DA's what they wanted.
they ought to be abolished. if the legislature does not act, let the populous suck eggs. our system is designed not to work well to give time for things to be accepted. live with it and get rid of this crap.
7. cartman69 - Nov. 5, 1998 - 10:44 PM PT
jexster:
Prop. 13 didn't address things like class size & immigrant education because those weren't real problems in 1978. And again, I'm not taking the Wilson tack of "blaming" immigrants. Nor am I getting on the shopworn "speak English or die" soapbox. What I am saying is that the influx of non-English-speaking immigrants has stepped up considerably since Prop. 13, and it is a problem that few other states have to contend with. What makes it a problem is that there are specialized needs (translators, ESL teachers) above & beyond standard school requirements. That is neither bad nor good, it's just fact.
Now, the Lottery initiative was *supposed* to augment this lack of funding for schools, NOT *replace* it. It is not the fault of homeowners that the state bureaucracy found something "better" to do with the money.
I was in 6th grade when Prop. 13 passed, so fully half my schooling was under the post-Prop. 13 era. About the only hardship I recall was that some classes had a shortage of textbooks. Somehow we managed, and somehow I made it through school with a modicum of knowledge & skills. Imagine that!
That CA schools turn out semi-literates is not entirely due to Prop. 13. What sort of educational system provides *remedial reading* classes at UNIVERSITY LEVEL? There's no fucking way I'm paying for that!!! If you don't know how to read and do math at college level, then you don't belong in college, simple as that. That's an enormous waste of tax $ right there.
I'm in full agreement that the CA school system sucks; I wouldn't want my kid in it (if I had one). If a ballot prop to increase *sales* tax to benefit education came up, I'd gladly vote for it. It'll never happen though, 'cause everyone in CA wants someone ELSE to pay for it.
8. CalGal - Nov. 5, 1998 - 11:05 PM PT
Cart,
Out of curiousity, did you grow up in an affluent area?
I lived in Redwood City (middle-upper middle), and the effect of Prop 13 was immediate and devastating. Funding for most music classes was cancelled; elective courses in language were cut way back. We had to start paying for all extras. The pools used to be open all year for swim teams to rent. They were closed for all but three months of the year.
And remember--I'm talking *right* after it passed. June 78, I think? That next school year, it was a whole different ballgame.
By the time I graduated (3 years later), the school I remembered from my sophomore year was changed beyond all recognition. By the time my sister graduated (3 years later than that), our choirleader had retired because there were no music classes for him to teach--only English. They had cancelled orchestra and severely cut back band.
And those were still the halcyon days.
This is anecdotal, but I'm pretty sure it's not a unique story.
9. cartman69 - Nov. 5, 1998 - 11:35 PM PT
Cal:
The county I live in (Glenn, just west of Chico) has always been in the bottom 5-10 of CA's 58 counties in terms of household income, joblessness, and general quality of life. We be po' n' shit (g)! Seriously, this is very much lower middle class country, very agricultural, very blue-collar. Also very low population (maybe 30,000 in the entire county), but spread out, so it's a dozen or so small schools (don't know the exact number).
And really what you've described sounds like a fair assessment of what happened all over the state. It may be anecdotal, but there's an awful lot of anecdotes like that. I note that music and art are always the first things to get cut back, never sports.
All of this still doesn't explain why Johnny can't read, though. Academic classes are still being funded. In CA, though, a lot of time and $ gets devoted to pitting different educational approaches -- phonics vs. "whole language", multiplication tables vs. "new math". Now, phonics and times tables aren't exactly entertaining, but they *work*. I know this first-hand, and since we're roughly the same age, I guess you do too. Yet countless hours and dollars have been wasted in an attempt to fix something that wasn't broken.
Could *this* account for some of the semi-literacy? The fact that the bureaucracy of the state school board is basically a Chinese fire drill? (parenthetical note to any PCers: no racism implied or intended by the use of the phrase "Chinese fire drill")
10. CalGal - Nov. 5, 1998 - 11:48 PM PT
Cart,
Actually, I agree that there are two issues--the decimation of funding for public schools was absolute and due to Prop 13.
The significant decline started with Prop 13, but I think another real problem is due to the instruction techniques.
Have you followed the whole language reading/phonetics controversy? I believe it was Bill Honig as superintendent who first promoted it in 1980? And for the next ten plus years it was the way we taught our kids to read.
Just one problem. Whole language just utterly sucks. So down go the reading scores. (Well, technically, the story is that most kids will learn to read no matter what method you use. But the rest of the kids will *only* learn with phonetics.)
We had similar problems with math, but I'm not as familiar with the details.
Hopefully someone can recount the recent history, but California is now reinstituting phonetics instruction and is also revamping their math instruction methods.
11. CalGal - Nov. 5, 1998 - 11:49 PM PT
Cart,
I somehow missed an *ENTIRE* paragraph in your post.
Grovel, grovel.
Second weird mistake of the night. Sorry.
We are saying the same thing.
12. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:05 AM PT
Cal:
Well, we are and we aren't (saying the same thing). Obviously, we're in agreement that whole language sucks, as a method of instruction. But it's handy in temporarily raising test scores, because it's a little more fun for kids, so they try at first. But there's nothing to retain or learn, and even spelling/punctuation mistakes aren't corrected. This stems from the whole language philosophy that if you correct the kid, you'll hurt his self-esteem and he won't want to learn.
New math is along the same line, in that it eschews rote memorization in favor of word problems. Great, but if a kid doesn't learn how simple equations work, it effectively caps the level of math he can attain. Try doing differential calculus (or even simple algebra & geometry) in a word-problem format.
I would submit that this sort of ham-fisted bureaucratic snafu is just as responsible for the woeful level of education as the lack of funding. You can throw 10 grand at every kid in the system, all he's going to learn is how to be a really good fast-food worker, if we keep this approach. And as you note, it's all still controversial, and is only NOW being remedied.
Frankly, the fact that remedial math/reading classes are even *offered* at state universities pisses me off. It's an inexcusable waste of money.
13. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:08 AM PT
Cart,
Don't get me started on the destruction of the Cal States.
14. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:25 AM PT
Cal:
OK, I won't. But do you really think that this educational miasma is due completely (or even primarily) to Prop. 13? Certainly it's a factor, but there's a confluence of factors in CA that have contributed to the decline in our educational system. Basically, there's just too many people on board, and most of 'em aren't paddling, so the boat's taking on water.(Gad, how's THAT for a labored metaphor?)
15. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:31 AM PT
Cart,
It is rather like a bomb exploded in the schools. Destroying them, demoralizing everyone involved.
And then a plague came. A plague that maybe could have been fixed sooner if it weren't for the damn bomb.
In fact, maybe the bomb *caused* the plague.
16. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:33 AM PT
Ack.
I posted and realized I forgot the rest of this when I cut and paste.
IOW, the schools declined so rapidly, that maybe Honig and others made the educational "improvements" in an effort to address the problems.
No knowledge, just speculation.
17. Slackjaw - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:44 AM PT
don't want to turn this into education thread redux, but:
"This stems from the whole language philosophy that if you correct the kid, you'll hurt his self-esteem and he won't want to learn." That is a crude bastardization of the so-called whole language philosophy. Somehow it has become a code word for the touchy-feely philosopy of sandal-wearing tree-hugging pinkos, which it isn't. There is a real idea behind whole language.
My wife teaches in a relatively large California school district, where they are pushing what cartman would call "new math" like a small time salesman pushes a miracle elixir. She happens to be teaching in this program, in 6th grade (in addition to the special ed duties I have described in other threads that essentially comprise her job). The jury is still out, but it looks like a good program to this 6th grade math flunkie (I received 2 F's in primary and secondary education, both in math).
Yes, it eschews rote memorization and multiplication tables. But it does not ignore this stuff--indeed, it appears extremely demanding to me. These kids are doing the 6th grade version of regression analysis. In any case, I think that sort of memorization has very little to do with understanding equations in elementary algebra. Those appear to me nothing like memorizing multiplication tables. Yes, repetition is important in equations, but that can be accomplished with a whole mess of word problems, which at least in this program the kids get.
I think understanding word problems and strategies to solve them (draw a picture, etc.) would be helpful in elementary calculus. Any idiot can grasp the power rule or the product rule, or the geometric interpretation of the definition of a derivative. Figuring out what you are asked in related rate problems, chain rule applications, etc., gave students the most trouble when I was in calculus.
18. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:47 AM PT
Nope. Not at my school anyway. I remember some speculation though that Honig had a deal with certain textbook companies -- ones that specialized in whole language studies.
And if that sounds too conspiracy theory for you remember: Honig eventually was convicted of embezzlement. Not exactly an Honest Joe.
19. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:48 AM PT
Slack,
Yes, there is a real idea behind whole language. Alas, all the studies continually prove that phonetics are better. Whole language was important in making reading instruction less about rote exercises.
I don't know as much about the new math methodology. I can't remember if the results are in about its effectiveness.
20. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:57 AM PT
Message #18 was in response to Message #16.
Slackjaw:
I don't discard whole language & new math entirely, certain aspects of it may be useful. But in the 80s, CA schools embraced it whole hog, to the detriment of the level of learning, imo.
To be honest, I never really checked out the Ed thread. Did anyone ever have any tangible ideas as to the decline of the CA school system (aside from lack of funding)?
See, I just can't dump it all on Prop. 13, 'cause I went to the same schools post-Prop., in one of the poorest, least-populated counties in the state, and I saw nothing that would have indicated the mess we have now.
21. Slackjaw - Nov. 6, 1998 - 1:03 AM PT
yeah, I pretty much agree.
CA education wasn't much discussed in the ed thread.
re. prop 13 & music/art: thanks to this prop, in addition to being a math and special ed teacher, my wife is also the chorus teacher at her school. Probably good in this case, as she was trained in vocal performance at the Indiana University School of Music and knows a little something about it.
Yeah, okay, so I'm proud of her--you got a problem with that?
22. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 1:15 AM PT
Slackjaw:
LOL! Sounds to me like you got yourself a keeper. That is one of the more infamous by-products of Prop.13 -- teachers having to teach two or three completely different subjects. Should never have happened, and in a saner state, wouldn't. We all know goddamn well that there's plenty of pork in this state that could be funding education though; the money's there. But no, no one wants their pet social projects cut. Three times today, I've suggested hiking the state *sales* tax, so it's coming out of EVERYONE'S pocket. No one's said a thing.
23. Msivorytower - Nov. 6, 1998 - 6:54 AM PT
Several comments (I tried to find this discussion but thought the thread had been killed, so sorry to be late to the party).
1) Calgal, what evidence are you relying on to so vehemently claim that whole language consistently results in lower test scores than phonics instruction? And what populations are used for such comparisons?
2) Cartman, you are ignoring a major issue: prior to the passage of 13, districts had the ability to immediately adjust their revenues when changes in enrollments and/or student services demanded it. As I said before, California has had expanding enrollments that were faster than average since the post war period. In addition, the state has also had a large immigrant population that was just as burdensome (wrt services) as the post 13 population, and yet the state managed to maintain an education system that was consistently ranked in the top 6 or so of the country UNTIL prop 13.
The last twenty years have been a challenge to the state's education system, but one of the MAJOR reasons it has been UNABLE to address these problems adequately is because of the funding restrictions induced by prop 13.
3) While the state legislature has been culpable for its substitution of education funds by lottery revenues rather than using them for expanding funding this is explained in several ways, and can be traced to the HUGE impact that the Reagan Administration brought about in Federal support of the Title 1, 2, 7 and 9's (as well as PS-142 - special educational mandates), which essentially CUT the federal funds available at a time of EXPANDING coverage of students.
cont...
24. Msivorytower - Nov. 6, 1998 - 6:54 AM PT
California, as well as other high growth states suffered the most under this change in funding (both in total amount and in type), having to make the difference up with general revenues. So, while the state's school population was becoming more diverse, the feds were cutting back support for the mandated programs serving those students, the state was losing revenues from other sources (late 80's slowdown in defense spending, the 90's cutbacks etc), and were having to absorb an ever increasing "share" of the total costs of education. That is, both the federal share of total revenues and the LOCAL share were shrinking, with the state being required to pick up the tab.
Had the state moved to cut other services they MIGHT have been able to squeak through in saving their education system, but the legislature was unprepared for the consequences of these simultaneous funding impacts, and consequently played the shuffle game.
4) At the same time that this was occurring at the K-12 level, enrollments at the post-secondary level were declining and the state share of those costs were rising.......
5) In summary, while instructional practices may play a role in exacerbating the decline of californias schools, they were more a reaction (desperate) to the changing circumstances of the school systems resource picture without any relief from the expected outcome standards they were held to. Prop 13 singlehandedly decimated the ability of the state to maintain flexibility for funding, and in conjunction with federal retrenchment of K-12 funding, left the state floundering.
25. Ronski - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:00 AM PT
MsIvory,
So, at least in part, the State Legislature was to blame for the decline in California public schooling?
To ask it another way, how would you apportion the blame?
26. Msivorytower - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:05 AM PT
"Three times today, I've suggested hiking the state *sales* tax, so it's coming out of EVERYONE'S pocket. No one's said a thing."
You labor under two misapprehensions about sales taxes;
1) that more people pay them than property taxes
2) that they would in any way be an adequate solution to the funding crisis of california's schools.
On the first, property taxes are a better source of funding for schools than sales taxes for a couple of reasons
- they are a local source of revenue, forcing local communities to pay a larger share of their school services
- they are more inelastic, since they are a tax on wealth (property) not income and thus are subject to less volatility
- they apportion the burden of paying for schools more equitably (wealthier properties pay more, less pay less) - although property taxes *can* be slightly regressive if exemptions from increases are not instituted for those with fixed incomes (the elderly)
- to capture the same sort of local effect, the sales tax would have to be local, but then that would cause all sorts of "shirking" behavior to avoid purchasing anything in the area with the higher local tax
The second problem is how much the sales tax would have to increase to actually bring in enough revenue to begin repairing the system. California already has quite high sales taxes, so there's a limit to how much it can effectively rise within a specific time frame. This would require some sort of detailed analysis, and I would want to see it done beforehand so that a more informed decision could be made (some sort of preliminary tax analysis and then cost-benefit analysis would be most appropriate I'd think).
My guess is that, at this point, given the crisis of funding in the system, BOTH would have to be pursued, that is, property tax reforms and sales tax increases.
27. Msivorytower - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:09 AM PT
Ronski,
The state is legally responsible for education, not the local communities. Of course the legislature was partly responsible, but that doesn't mean they had many choices before them, either. They could have moved to raise income taxes, but that was not very politically realistic. I think the legislature was short-sighted, was politically expedient, was acting like a typical political body.
I find it amusing that you and Cartman think the legislature would (or could) have acted much differently.
28. Msivorytower - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:28 AM PT
re: point 1 in Message #26
I forgot to add that property taxes are distributed pretty evenly, with renters paying their share as well as all property owners. So the arguement that sales taxes reach more people isn't very compelling.
Besides, I see sales taxes as regressive (more so than property), and more effective if collected at the state level, which would keep the revenues in state hands rather than providing local districts an added source of local revenues.
29. Ronski - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:30 AM PT
MsIvory,
What makes you think I think the legislature would have acted differently?
I expect legislatures to do the wrong thing most of the time, as I thought I've made clear in these environs.
30. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:50 AM PT
Ms,
I'm only vehement about people who drive slowly in the fast lane. I have my likes and dislikes, and whole language reading technique is fairly high among the latter.
The Post had the detailed report on this subject about a year ago; I discussed it then. I just did a quick search and found this LA Weekly article that brings up a lot of the same points.
Also, here is a book on it Beginning to Read that establishes, as I said above, that most kids will learn how to read regardless of the method used--they intuitively pick up phonemic awareness. Any child who doesn't pick it up will not learn it except through phonetic instruction.
And, as usual, what I'm saying is not all that controversial (when I'm being way out there, I usually identify it as such). I don't believe there is a single credible study that establishes whole language reading as superior to phonetics. In any reliable study, phonetics wins.
This is more a topic for an education thread, of course.
31. Ronski - Nov. 6, 1998 - 8:08 AM PT
Of course, if legislatures were dominated by people who actually respected individual freedom, things would be somewhat different.
32. elliot803 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 8:14 AM PT
After Tuesday's elections results, the whole western flank of the U.S. has now endorsed medical marijuana by popular vote. I wonder what the impact of this will be. Will the buyers' clubs start up again? According to my local paper, the Feds have already announced that they will stop going after doctors who prescribe marijuana for their patients. The people have spoken, and they've basically told the federal government that they think its drug policy stinks.
33. trouserPilot - Nov. 6, 1998 - 8:35 AM PT
I'd like to address one of the other points raised in the brilliant post that IrvingSnodgrass cited as the genesis of this thread; i.e., the latitude state legislatures should have in revamping, refining, or even overturning voter-passed initiatives.
Maybe this is not controversial: I think most people would agree, on a gut level, that once an issue is decided by voters, it should be final. In Arizona, however, we have witnessed, on several occasions, the phenomenon of an arrogant legislature attempting to misdirect, if not undo, measures passed via ballot propositions.
Several years ago, voters approved a cigarette tax, the proceeds of which were intended to go toward indigent health care; the Legislature was fine with the tax but attempted to redirect the funds to its own purposes. More recently, the Legislature tried to "refine" a drug medicalization/decriminalization measures passed by voters in 1996. The original measures not only granted persmission to doctors (with many restrictions in place, of course) to prescribe marijuana for cancer or AIDS patients, for example, but also specified parole/treatment as alternatives to prison time for first-time and other low-level drug offenses.
The Legislature, fully in the thrall of the anti-drug war hysteria, attempted to rein in some of the more "radical" aspects of these measures. Ultimately, their changes were embodied in two new propositions, which appeared on last Tuesday's ballot. (The campaign for these two props said nothing about "medicalization"; their battle cry was "Keep drugs out of our neighborhoods!") Both were soundly defeated, thus leaving the original 1996 measures in tact.
(cont'd)
34. trouserPilot - Nov. 6, 1998 - 8:36 AM PT
(cont's from #33)
But this meddling spawned another set of propositions on the 1998 ballot: a citizen-spawned state constitution amendment that spelled out exactly what leeway the Legislature could have with regard to modifying voter-approved propositions; and, as often happens, a competing, similar, yet weaker version sponsored by the Legislature itself. In a stunning display of consistency and common sense, the voters approved the citizen initiative and defeated the Legislature's trojan horse.
Maybe, just maybe, that has settled the issue.
35. trouserPilot - Nov. 6, 1998 - 8:46 AM PT
Here's the flip side.
Legislators are hired to create legislation. They presumably know how laws work and what types of policies should be implemented; if they don't, they have access to ample resources to help them. The rabble, on the other hand, may not always be equipped with the knowledge and the perspective to make sound laws. There are multiple checks on Legislative power: the governor, the courts, the electorate. When the public passes bad laws, the only fallback is the courts.
In 1990, Arizonans passed an "English Only" initiative; it was overturned by a judge. I applauded the judge. Where was my anger at the arrogance of public officials then?
In fact, shouldn't elected representatives be able to intervene when voters do something stupid? Where should the line be drawn?
36. CoralReef - Nov. 6, 1998 - 8:55 AM PT
Excuse this interruption.
• Did the cockfighting ban pass?
• Will it in fact hurt tourism to AZ?
37. elliot803 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:04 AM PT
CoralReef:
1. Yes.
2. About as much as gay marriage would hurt tourism in Hawaii (see how I manage to work gay marriage into every issue?)
38. trouserPilot - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:18 AM PT
CoralReef:
2. I'm not aware that cockfighting was a big tourist draw. My opposition to the ban had nothing to do with tourism.
By the way, elliot, I guess I owe you that big, juicy chicken dinner. Let me know when you'd like to collect.
39. CoralReef - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:21 AM PT
2. was a joke.
Thanks for the info, guys, anyway!
40. elliot803 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:22 AM PT
TP: Next week sometime, maybe?
41. elliot803 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:24 AM PT
CoralReef:
I know.
I understand the ban on the hunting of mourning doves in Ohio was rejected. Can't win 'em all.
42. trouserPilot - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:33 AM PT
coralreef
Fortunately, our annual Pulling the Legs Off Spiders Festival is still going strong, tourist-wise.
elliot803
Any chance I can talk you into a steaming plate of braised mourning dove instead?
43. Msivorytower - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:45 AM PT
Calgal
I'm reading your links, find some problems with the criticism (what 2nd graders know how to write a sentence correctly? - very odd to raise this as an issue and ignorant of the process of teaching reading even phonetically), but haven't time right now to counter in depth (dissertation meeting waiting around the corner). So I'll try to find some other lit this afternoon and get back to this issue later.
My sense (out of the gate) is that the criticism is not valid on the face of it, and needs better refinement.
44. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 10:08 AM PT
Ms,
I wasn't so much trying to prove it at this point as explain to you what the current thinking is. It sounded as if you didn't know about the real sea change away from whole language reading. It has served its purpose--kids will have better associations with reading if they enjoy what they are reading, and the move towards using actual books rather than relying on worksheets and repetition is due to the whole language movement.
I wish I had the original Post article--it cited several studies and addressed the fact that, since the late 80s, the evidence is clearly in favor of phonetics.
Even the founder of whole language reading admits that no independent study has come up with any results favorable to his cause.
As I said, we don't have to discuss it--certainly not in this thread--but what I was saying about the problems that the whole language methods caused is not anything way out there and is, in fact, why California is moving rapidly away from it as a method (while keeping the obvious benefits of its approach).
45. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:10 PM PT
MsITMessage #23:
"Cartman, you are ignoring a major issue: prior to the passage of 13, districts had the ability to immediately adjust their revenues when changes in enrollments and/or student services demanded it."
Which basically means that before Prop.13, school districts could jack up property taxes in the area as they saw fit, without a bond referendum. Is that the gist of it, or am I misinterpreting you? FWIW, as far as I can recall offhand, most school bond referenda in this area get passed. I don't know about the rest of the state.
"In addition, the state has also had a large immigrant population that was just as burdensome (wrt services) as the post 13 population,..."
No way. Immigrant population in CA has BOOMED since the 70's, from ever more nations. Which is perfectly fine, except many arrive totally unprepared for American society in any way. So the state steps in to help, as it should, but this is all extra time & money spent.
From Message #24 "Had the state moved to cut other services they MIGHT have been able to squeak through in saving their education system, but the legislature was unprepared for the consequences of these simultaneous funding impacts, and consequently played the shuffle game."
Exactly. As you further elaborated, the state did what was politically expedient at the time, instead of the most responsible thing, which is par for the course.
46. BobaFett - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:12 PM PT
heh heh, heh heh heh heh....
.... cockfighting.... heh heh...
... COCK fighting... heh heh heh heh heh
47. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:16 PM PT
(cont.)
Look, there are plenty of reasons why CA schools have declined. The "inflexibility in funding" you cite has enabled a lot of folks in this area to keep what property they have. Nobody works to buy a house, just to get taxed out of it when a shitload of people inundate the state. And that's really where Prop.13 is a problem: it didn't anticipate CA's population increasing by some 8-10 million over the last 20 years. But again, the state didn't exactly fall over itself trying to get any money from a social program. There's money in the state system to revitalize education. We had a $2-3 billion surplus this year, if I remember correctly.
Bottom line is, while education is of prime importance, there's no need to overturn Prop.13. Cut farm subsidies. Trim some of the fat off the state bureaucracy. It's easy to go after working people; they don't have lobbyists in Sacramento.
48. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:19 PM PT
Thanks for reminding me, Boba. In the Midterm thread, trouserPilot referred to AZ's cockfighting initiative as "cultural imperialism". So I reiterate my question, tP, what sort of "culture" embraces cockfighting, and shouldn't monster truck rallies and pro wrestling be enough for such a "culture"?
49. BobaFett - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:20 PM PT
Cartman:
huh huh huhhuhhuh.... COCK...
huh huh
huh huh huh huh huh
Cock.....
50. BobaFett - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:23 PM PT
Cartman;
Well, I mean, South & Central Americans are into cockfighting.
These PC thugs take the position that just because some other society does something, *our* society must defer or else we're somehow bad.
I don't buy it.
In S&Cent. America, if they want to cockfight, let them. I won't move there and demand they stop cockfighting just because my Disneyesque American sensibilities are offended by it.
And if there's alot of Elliot types here who are outraged by cockfighting, well then, we'll make it illegal.
Personally, I think cockfighting would probably hurt an awful lot.
heh heh ehhe heheehehe .... cockfighting...
heh heh... cock.... fighting ... heeh heh ehhe heehhehe
51. cartman69 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:54 PM PT
Boba:
Agreed. There is far too much obeisance paid to the false god of "cultural sensitivity". And I had a feeling that was what tP was referring to, that it's practiced in South America. Well, according to a documentary on HBO last year, there are quite a few villages in Spain that throw goats out of bell towers on festival days. I don't understand that sort of "culture", and I don't want it here. If that makes me an "imperialist", fine. Really, it's just that I have a bit more respect for life, even the life of a goat. This has been gone over ad nauseam in the Ethics thread already, but there's just something wrong with people who kill/torture animals for sport.
Bottom line -- not *all* cultural mores deem respect.
And yes, I do eat chicken, but I don't throw it in a ring to get shredded by other chickens before I kill it.
52. BobaFett - Nov. 7, 1998 - 12:20 AM PT
if it's an act of "cultural imperialism" to prohibit cockfighting, why isn't it also an act of "cultural imperialism" for S & Central American immigrants to come here and hold cockfighting contests?
heh heh ehehehheeeheeh... hold.. cock... fighting...
huh huh huh heh heh...
Because, of course, of the great double standard that says everything WE do is Evil, Corrupt, and Oppressive and everything everyone else does is Good, Natural, and Part of their Culture.
Well, fuck that. that's just kneejerk bullshit.
53. escarbro - Nov. 7, 1998 - 5:32 AM PT
BobaFett:
I think cockfighting, while painful (hehehe, to quote you), is also illegal in Texas. If cockfighting is considered sodomy. I guess if it is done in public (an interesting contest to watch, no?) it would *come* under the public lewdness statutes.
Given your MTV threshold of humor, maybe you would enyoy making up the rules of such a contest?
54. Msivorytower - Nov. 7, 1998 - 7:07 AM PT
"Which basically means that before Prop.13, school districts could jack up property taxes in the area as they saw fit, without a bond referendum. Is that the gist of it, or am I misinterpreting you?"
No, this is not correct. School boards have never been able to raise taxes as they saw fit. They have always had to go through some public process. The problem is that even *with* the bond process, Prop 13 limited the increase in taxes that could occur. It capped the rise (and that was of ALL taxes on property, not just school taxes).
"FWIW, as far as I can recall offhand, most school bond referenda in this area get passed. I don't know about the rest of the state."
I'm sorry, but you could you back this up because it goes against all the information I have, which is that no significant school bonds were passed for about 12 years after prop 13. Hence the increased role the State has taken as a source of funding for k-12 education (at about 65% of all revenues).
"No way. Immigrant population in CA has BOOMED since the 70's, from ever more nations."
Immigration to California has been booming since well before the 70's, although I grant you the diversity of immigrants has increased since the late 70's (don't forget, Prop 13 wasn't passed until 1978). You still fail to grasp the main point about rising enrollments and increasing diversity of students; California has always been out in front of the nation in this regard (at least in the post war period), and so this IS NOTHING NEW. The system already had to deal with these things, and it did, for a very long time.
The newest challenges just rachet up the level of difficulty, but not the basic problems themselves.
"Which is perfectly fine, except many arrive totally unprepared for American society in any way."
Again, nothing new here between the pre- and post- prop 13 conditions.
55. Msivorytower - Nov. 7, 1998 - 7:09 AM PT
"As you further elaborated, the state did what was politically expedient at the time, instead of the most responsible thing, which is par for the course."
And the state takes its mandate from the population. You think legislators were acting in secrecy? Against the will of the population? Please. Talk to your parents about what they wanted the State to do, if you're too young to remember.
This sudden stance that the state is a separate entity has no real validity. The voting public in California is fully responsible for the education debacle you now have. If you're so hot to spend that surplus on education (and everyone else is) then why isn't it being done?
56. jexster - Nov. 7, 1998 - 9:58 AM PT
Appropos of this discussion, I saw a banner ad for this on the NYT site. Just glanced at it. Seems like a Wonker site.
Go To the Ballot Intitiatives Discussion
57. arkymalarky - Nov. 7, 1998 - 10:05 AM PT
I tell you something I want to see passed someway, somehow, and that's an end of the tax exempt status of propagandists posing as nonpartisan dispensers of valuable information to help the voters wisely choose their candidates.
58. jexster - Nov. 7, 1998 - 10:29 AM PT
Policy.com is interesting. I have made this argument in the Elections Thread discussion that preceded this one.
"Charles Kesler of IntellectualCapital.com writes that although initiatives were intended to bypass legislative gridlock, the process actually encourages legislators to "stalemate" on controversial bills, knowing that the voters may decide the issue directly if they wish. He argues that the initiative process is a clumsy way of legislating policy and can be confusing to uninformed voters."
A corrolary is that the intitiative process thwarts coalition building so vital to representative democracy. Groups come together as voters led by special interests only to break up and disappear. Logrolling is healthy, initiaves are not.
59. cigarlaw - Nov. 7, 1998 - 4:56 PM PT
CA got a double wammy through the initiative process. We imposed term limits, which eliminated the ability of legislators to learn their jobs at the same time big money interests were taking over the process,
as a consequence, at the same time the wackos are putting everything under the sun on the ballot, we have a bunch of jerks in Sacto, each one trying to be a citizen legislator and give the people what they want without thinking that they may have to live with it.
If we keep goingas we are, i question why we even need a legislature. the executive banch runs everything. the department of motor vehicles does its best to take everyone's driver's licenses away and the AG tries to put everyone n jail without fear that the legislayure will do anything about it. they know that by the time anyone in the assembly has any power he will move to the senate and start all over again. anyone in the senate with powerwill soon be in the executive and be coopted, so don't worry about serving the people -- repress them.
60. escarbro - Nov. 8, 1998 - 11:17 AM PT
Random thought: Has Cigarlaw considered changing his online name since the Monica manipulation? I mean, I couldn't possibly put one in my mouth now.
61. cigarlaw - Nov. 8, 1998 - 5:15 PM PT
escarbo -- not a chance.
62. Random - Nov. 11, 1998 - 1:09 AM PT
Absentee ballots still out on the Prop.10 Cigerette tax issue. While the Sec. of State site shows it passed, we keep getting reports that there are still thousands of absentee uncounted.
When Clintons and the Democrat Congress and the Democratic Socialists of America Progressive Caucus jammed that Motor Voter Election Fraud Bill through the Congress they screwed up elections for all time. No one trusts the Absentee Ballot situation and sure as hell no one trusts a bunch of government bureaucrats performing registrations. It is illegal to have tax payer paid employees performing the work of election
campaigns, hasn't passed Constitutional muster. BillyJeffBoob will have to eat this scheme.
63. trouserPilot - Nov. 11, 1998 - 4:14 PM PT
This thread has been RIP'd?!?!
I say, let's put it to a public vote.
Let's also put this to a vote: whether Random should have a nice, cool compress applied to his forehead.
64. Wombat - Nov. 11, 1998 - 5:57 PM PT
Random should have a nice cool wrecking ball applied to his head...sorry, I meant to say the part of his body that he thinks with. That would not be his head.
65. vonKreedon - Nov. 12, 1998 - 10:10 AM PT
I really appreciated tP's posts in Message #33 and Message #34. He brings up an interesting point, that legislators have, in theory, some experience in writing laws and certainly have staff trained in writing laws. Those who write initiatives may or may not have this skill. So, what is the legitimate role of our governmental institutions with regard to initiatives passed by the people?
Under most current initiatives processes I do not believe the legislature has a role unless specified in the initiative or specified by a court ruling on the initiative (someone correct me if I am wrong in this generalization). The courts are the venue for re-shaping initiative passed laws.
I would like to see a somewhat different initiative process, one that involved the legislature. I would like to see a process in which the people express a desire for law(s) that do certain things;e.g., medical marijuana or tax reform. The legislature would then be responsible for preparing one or more proposals to fill the expressed desire and submitting these proposals to the people as initiatives. If none of the proposals received a majority (not a plurality) of the popular vote then the legsilature would try again. This process allows the people to drive legislation that is of concern, prevents the legislature from "sluffing off" their responsibilities and skills, and also slows the initiative process down so that a more informed debate/decision could be made.
66. trouserPilot - Nov. 12, 1998 - 2:42 PM PT
vonKreedon
Your solution has merit, but our experience in Arizona demonstrates that perhaps our particular Legislature has historically been more interested in sleight-of-hand than actually responding to citizens' concerns. Time after time it has sponsored ballot measures that competed with measures that originated with the people: the Legislature's measures sure *sound* like they're intended to accomplish the same goal, but a closer look reveals a lot of window dressing but no real action. I have no faith that a Legislature-based ballot-measure-writing process wouldn't involve the same kind of shenanigans.
67. trouserPilot - Nov. 12, 1998 - 2:46 PM PT
And somebody above mentioned that there are no "checks" on potentially harmful ballot measures passed by the public (unlike the checks inherent in a Legislature-Governor system). That's wrong: the courts have the ultimate say. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, Arizona has had first-hand experience with the checks on the public's ability to pass law: when we (or they -- I didn't vote for it) passed an "English Only" ballot measure in 1990, it was rightly overturned by a judge.
68. vonKreedon - Nov. 12, 1998 - 2:50 PM PT
In WA we have had the same sort of legislative "sleight of hand initiative", they usually don't come to much as we are too alert to fall for such.
I like the existence of the initiative process. I perceive a need for the people to be directly involved in the formulation of laws/policy. I would really like our culture to value social policy involvement to the point that we could have the sort of electronic town meeting that Perot nattered on about. The idea of an electronic Agora in which we can debate issues, propose and vote solutions is extremely appealing to me. But then, I believe that people want to do the right thing, whatever that might be.
69. trouserPilot - Nov. 12, 1998 - 3:52 PM PT
vonKreedon
I don't share your longing for an "electronic" or any other type of policy-making Agora. Debating, sure. Deciding, no. Most of that stuff should be left to professionals; i.e., legislators. But, yes, *if only* the electorate could somehow take a greater interest: theoretically they would then elect better professional lawmakers.
70. Random - Nov. 13, 1998 - 2:01 AM PT
Wombat: Disagree with you who I judge to be a union type. However, I would fight for your right to believe as you do. You should, of course, read my post in the News of the Day thread about Jay Leno's 'man on the street interviews'. You are so aptly described in the first paragraph.
Keep on with that Union Jack, "Ye carry the yoke."
71. Adrianne - Nov. 13, 1998 - 7:13 AM PT
South Carolina enters the 20th Century.
From Ballot: "Shall Section 33, Article III of the Constitution of this State be amended by deleting the following sentence from the Constitution: "?The marriage of a white person with a Negro or mulatto, or person who shall have one-eighth or more of Negro blood, shall be unlawful and void.'"
AND IT PASSED!
72. trouserPilot - Nov. 13, 1998 - 7:25 AM PT
Strom Thurmond is rolling in his grave! Uh, you know, getting a head start on it.
73. 109109 - Nov. 13, 1998 - 7:33 AM PT
From the "Is it Fact or is it Fiction? files re: Mr. Thurmond
His suit jacket pockets are lined with plastic baggies because - when he goes to receptions and fundraisers and other such events where finger food and Or derves (I'm not bothering to spell it) are served - he walks by the trays and puts a cocktail weenie or a slab of roast beef in his pocket for later.
74. bubbaette - Nov. 13, 1998 - 7:35 AM PT
I guess it would keep lint out of the pate.
75. stangORSian - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:23 AM PT
hors d'oeuvres
76. stangORSian - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:24 AM PT
hors d'oeuvres
pâté
I'm starting a list...
77. stangORSian - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:25 AM PT
Can anyone tell I got a new spelling dictionary for my birthday,?
It-s grate,!
78. bubbaette - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:25 AM PT
Stan
I'm impressed. I didn't know you could spell, much less that you are so handy with characters.
79. stangORSian - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:28 AM PT
I know alot of characters, bubbabette,!
But I-m mortified by the punctuation error in, #76,.
80. bubbaette - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:30 AM PT
§§§§§§§§§§§§
What treats are you whipping up for thanksgiving in the Gorsian household Stan?