1. IrvingSnodgrass - May 14, 1999 - 9:23 AM PT
Here's the place to talk about your dreams and what they mean. Tell us your nightmares, your bizarre dreams, and dreams which have come true.
For example, the other night I dreamt I ate a giant marshmallow, and when I woke up, my pillow was gone!
2. Ronski - May 14, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT
I think of dreams usually as no more than random firings of neurons, as the brain sorts out what is important in recent experience from what is not.
OTOH, when I first visited my BF's home in Kansas, shortly after his father died somewhat unexpectedly, the first night I dreamt that his father came to me to show me his garden, knowing that gardening was one passion we shared and would have discussed had we met in this life.
Did his father really come to me in the dream? I kind of like to think so. And it does me no harm to do so.
3. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 10:03 AM PT
I hate it when I have dreams where I can't run fast enough, or if I'm trying to defend myself, I can't. It seems that in those kinds of dreams, my muscles work in sloooooow motion. Anyone else have these?
4. TheDiva - May 14, 1999 - 10:12 AM PT
Jen
Funny, when I was younger, I had those quite a bit. Also, I used to dream that I was screaming but no-one could hear me.
Now, my worst dreams are ones where I dream that I've lost Gracie and I can't find her. Awful.
5. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 10:22 AM PT
Diva,
I'm sure bad dreams about your daughter wake you up with anxiety. I hate that! I had one recently in which I was trying to hide from intruders and came across a gun. I scrambled looking for bullets but they were all the wrong size. Finally, when I was able to load one, but the gun didn't work!
6. PsychProf - May 14, 1999 - 10:46 AM PT
Hypotheses for the function of "dream" sleep(and sleep in general), a particular segment of the entire seep cycle. This phase is also called REM(rapid eye movement) sleep, and/or paradoxial sleep. The paradox is that the brain wave patterns that are seen are similar to the awake period:
1) Recuperative/restorative function...some experimental support for the removal of daily neurotoxins and the efficacy of a "sleep" produced substance.
2) Insurance of removal from the enviornment("fast" or "slow" sleepers)...sort of a safety factor. Some experimental/natural evidence that predators have longer periods of deep and REM sleep.
3) Memory....recent experimental support has been gathered that suggests consolidation and long term storage of daily menory is a function of REM sleep.
4) Freudian theory notes that the effect of "dreams" is to release sexual energy within the unconscious through metaphors we call "dreams"... most believe this in an intuitive sense, even if they don't know that in this case to describe a dream is to reveal ones sexual life.
5) Nobel prize winner FCrick suggested that dreams are random firings to remove unneeded daily memory activity...not held in high regard currently, especially since the advent of the consolidation/memory data.
7. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 10:50 AM PT
psychprof,
Is there a sleeping disorder associated with waking up during REM sleep, without some sort of "coming down" period? In other words, if I wake up during REM sleep every time, am I more likely to be fatigued?
8. PsychProf - May 14, 1999 - 10:53 AM PT
Jen...it is common to wake up at the end of the REM cycle. If you want to recall and analyze dreams this is the time to do so. Also, this is an ideal time for all of us to make sure we know and approve of the person we are sleeping with.
9. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 10:56 AM PT
PP,
I have vivid dreams every single night, and for the most part, I remember them. I have noticed though, that I wake up sometimes feeling exhausted because I have been dreaming so much.
10. PsychProf - May 14, 1999 - 11:02 AM PT
About 16% of our total sleep time is taken with dream sleep...unless we are infants, when 50% or more is the rule. We think the infant is involved in postnatal synaptoneurogenesis(brain growth and completion) here.
11. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:03 AM PT
Since I'm not an infant, what does it mean for me?
12. PsychProf - May 14, 1999 - 11:05 AM PT
Too much sexual inagery in your dream period...get rid of more sexual energy while awake. (g)
13. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:08 AM PT
PP,
What kind of advice is that?!;-) It's not like I'm dreaming about neck ties while walking through several doors and eating berries!
14. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:20 AM PT
"It's not like I'm dreaming about neck ties while walking through several doors and eating berries!"
I don't get this at all. Could you please explain?
15. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:22 AM PT
Incog,
In a psych class a long time ago, we had to study Freudian dream analysis. From what I remember, even the most mundane events in one's dreams suggested sexual desires. He managed to turn almost everything into something about sex.
16. cmboyce - May 14, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
I have for years, intermittently, recorded my dreams and have accounts of hundreds. I do go back and read them some, but this isn't really the point. Rather, it helps me remember them more thoroughly, clarify them as I review them on paper, and, startlingly (as least it was startling for me when I realized it), when I'm more or less regularly doing this, I definitely dream more elaborate and vivid dreams! If you're a dream fancier, I recommend it.
17. TheDiva - May 14, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
I always loved it when Gracie, as an infant, smiled in her sleep. I wish I knew what she'd been dreaming.
18. CalGal - May 14, 1999 - 11:27 AM PT
I have a dreadful confession: I categorize my dreams. No, I don't categorize *in* my dreams. But the dreams themselves. This is because I rarely remember my dreams, so when they make an impression it means something. *All* of the dreams I remember have some sort of connection with my life, so the difference is only which method it takes.
1) I am working out something that upset me in a way I can't articulate.
I saw the IMAX movie on Antartica. In it, this guy cut a hole into the ice and dove into the water, where he could withstand excrutiating cold for 20 minutes and then, if he didn't get out, he'd die. HE WENT AWAY FROM THE HOLE to film the fish flocking to the hole and I was squirming in my seat going GET THE FUCK BACK TO THE DAMN SURFACE, you moron. And then later, these divers went swimming beneath the surface in cracks in the glaciers and like any minute one could have shifted and SQUISH. I was truly, truly freaked. That night I had a dream. I was in a bank and I wanted to leave right that moment. The guy behind me in line said, oh, don't be stupid. But I had to leave, because I knew something horrible would happen. So I left, even though I lost my place in line and would have to wait *forever* (a very dire occurrence in the CalGal world, and something to be avoided at all costs). Came back 20 minutes later, and the entire bank was awash in blood--bankrobbers had come in and shot up everyone. Woke up and knew I'd gotten that damn movie out of my system.
19. CalGal - May 14, 1999 - 11:27 AM PT
2) I have a dream that is so utterly realistic that I wake up and operate for at least five minutes under the assumption that it really happened.
These dreams are always quite specific. They are also rare. Most, but not all, of the time, they relate to real life issues that I'm concerned about. Unlike the first category, they are things that I'm *consciously* upset about. But the defining attribute is not whether or not they relate to real life, but the utter mind fuck they pull on me. I spend some time afterwards still assuming that it happened. Once, about five years ago, I dreamed that I was pregnant and was in the doctor's office having a stress test done. And the doctor came in and sadly told me I'd lost the baby. I was devastated in the dream, heartbroken. Woke up and said, yes, but it was only a dream. You didn't lose the baby. I was in the shower before it occurred to me that not only hadn't I lost the baby, I wasn't pregnant Very odd when these happen. I will dream that a friend hurt me, a family member dies, I lost a job, I wrote a program--anything. But I am convinced for a good bit of time that the dream was reality.
20. CalGal - May 14, 1999 - 11:28 AM PT
3) Directed dreams
For many years I was utterly phobic about flying. Even though I flew constantly (my fear level was considered to be much higher than many people who don't fly at all because of the anxiety it provokes.). And the closest thing I had to a regular dream was the dream where I was on a plane and I knew it would crash. My father is always on the plane, telling me how silly I am to think so. And the plane bumps once, which means it's going to crash and I wake up.
Then one time a number of years ago I had a dream about Spawn; I was running to find him and he was tossed by the side of the road where he'd been hit by a car. In what I can only term an intervention, my subconscious (or another part of my unconscious, I don't keep these things straight), utterly refused to let him be dead. I *felt* myself say, "No fucking *way* are you ruining your next week with this dream." By the time I got to Spawn's side, his eyes were fluttering and he wasn't dead. But the dream had started out with him dying, I know it. The next time I had the plane dream I felt the same thing. The plane bumps once, nothing happens, and my dad said, triumphantly, "SEE?" And I don't have the dream any more.
21. CalGal - May 14, 1999 - 11:29 AM PT
4) Premonitions
I have had one dream that was a wondrously complex mishmash that seemed to have no relation to real life. There were people in it I knew, of course, but it was odd and didn't fall into any of my usual dream categories. It was so odd that I emailed a description of it to a friend. And that evening a sequence of events happened that, on the surface, had no relation to the dream. But it clearly *was* the dream and my dream was trying to tell me who to call in case plan A didn't work out. Which, fortunately, it did. Ever since then, whenever I have a dream that doesn't fall into one of the other categories and seems very odd, I file away as much of it as I can, on the assumption that it is telling me something to pay attention to that hasn't happened yet. And in every case, it's been useful and I saw some connection later, where it was warning me. The only time I ever wrote down the dream was that first time, so I've never been able to document the pattern. Nor do I want to, quite frankly.
For those of you who say, bullshit. It's not a premonition. Fine. No argument from me. Although the first example was utterly amazing. I treat it that way because that's what works best. Ignoring the information seems silly, yes? And if I found that paying attention to the data did me harm, because I was treating information as real when it wasn't, I would have stopped by now. But in all cases, the best solution has been to regard these dreams as premonitions and look for the opportunity or problem that it's giving me a head's up on. I am completely aware that it might be me putting a pattern on something that doesn't exist. But hey, it works. So I keep my psyche happy.
22. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:29 AM PT
Jenerator maybe you ought to take PP's advice!
23. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:33 AM PT
Incog,
No thanks, I'm waiting for Mr. Right.
24. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:34 AM PT
too many dreams about Emmitt and Irvin??
yes I AM joking!!
25. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:35 AM PT
and just remember Mr Right will still find in incredible even when you are 68, despite what some may say here in the Fray
26. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:35 AM PT
and just remember Mr Right will still find you incredible even when you are 68, despite what some may say here in the Fray
27. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:35 AM PT
hopefullly you can see the correction!
28. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:36 AM PT
Incog,
I'm not worried about what anyone in here says when I'm 68. I seriously doubt I'll be fraying 40 years from now!;-)
29. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:38 AM PT
y do i find that hard to believe?
30. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:40 AM PT
Because you bought Slate stock and hope it'll really be worth something in 40 years? I don't know.
31. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:41 AM PT
well hopefully in 40 years you will care about SOME of the people in here and their opinions then!
32. Jenerator - May 14, 1999 - 11:44 AM PT
incog,
Good point. With that, I am gone for the day. Have a lovely afternoon everyone. Enjoy the weekend!;-)
33. incognito - May 14, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
funny "Silent Lucidity" just started playing on my Queensryche CD!
34. ChristiPeters - May 14, 1999 - 1:29 PM PT
hmmmm...
just as i learned to separate from my emotions so thoroughly when i was a child that it took me until i was in my mid-30s to even recognise when i was sad, angry, etc, it was also in that period (mid-30s) that i began to be aware that i dreamed. before then i would have said i didn't dream anything at all. very rarely do i remember what i dream, but i *do* remember now that i have dreamed. i also remember that i dream in color and somehow the colors in my dreams are much more vivid than the colors in my waking world. sometimes i search for those colors in paint or fabrics and tend to wear bright colors now tho i used to wear only very plain subdued outfits.
amazingly enuff, i spent most of my life thinking i had grey eyes. now, i know that my eyes are very changable. my eyes are blue most of the time. when i am very happy, my eyes are very blue. when i am depressed, my eyes are grey. when i am very sad and crying, my eyes are green
(i only know that because once i wore makeup to a counseling session as it was right after a job interview. so i checked a mirror to see if the mascara was running after the session. startled the heckout of me to see green eys in my face.)
weird.
35. ChristiPeters - May 14, 1999 - 1:31 PM PT
Lil Darlin' not only smiles in her sleep, she talks, and sometimes walks. I always wake up when she talks, but very seldom can I tell what she's saying. I also wake up every time she walks and just gently tell her to go lay back down and she always does. She never has any recollection of it in the morning.
36. JJBiener - May 14, 1999 - 1:55 PM PT
Cal - Precognitive dreams are not unusual. I have them all the time. Unfortunately, mine are completely useless. They usually consist of a few minutes of typical, mundane activity and the events occur a few weeks or months after the dream. Often these dreams preceed a major event like a job change or a move and contain people and places I don't know at the time of the dream. It is only after the events occur and I can see them in context, that the dream makes sense.
37. ChristinO - May 14, 1999 - 2:53 PM PT
Jen,
I may be wrong here so it's better to get the opinion of someone with some actual knowledge about this, but I have a feeling that the reason you're so tired when you dream a lot is because you don't get down to the truly deep sleep for long enough.
I think REM sleep occurs at the higher/shallower levels of sleep, right? If you spend most of your time in shallow sleep you'll dream more, but miss out on the necessary deep sleep.
This is the weird insomnia that I get-----lots of dreams and waking up every 20 to 30 minutes. I'm feel more exhausted after a few nights of this than if I hadn't slept at all(well not reall, but you know what I mean).
38. ChristinO - May 14, 1999 - 2:55 PM PT
delete 'm where appropriate.
sheesh.
39. ChristinO - May 14, 1999 - 2:56 PM PT
and insert y
double sheesh.
40. ChristinO - May 14, 1999 - 3:53 PM PT
Pilate's Dream
I dreamed I met a Galilean
A most amazing man
He had that look you very seldom find
The haunting hunted kind
And when I asked him what had happened
He turned and looked away
I asked again
He never said a word
As if he hadn't heard
And then the room was filled with wild and angry men
They seemed to hate this man
They fell on him
And then they disappeared again
Then I heard thousands upon millions
Crying for this man
I heard them mentioning my name
And leaving me the blame.
41. cllrdr - May 14, 1999 - 3:55 PM PT
I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you or me,
"They told me that you'd died," I said,
"I never died," said he,
"I just changed my party affiliation after I snagged a job at 109's law firm."
42. AuNaturel - May 14, 1999 - 4:09 PM PT
"lots of dreams and waking up every 20 to 30 minutes."
Possibly indicative of a high serotonin level? This is a common complaint of people on SSRI antidepressants.
43. AuNaturel - May 14, 1999 - 4:12 PM PT
Not saying you are on SSRIs of course....
44. ChristinO - May 14, 1999 - 4:34 PM PT
Actually I'm supposed to be but I'm lazy and not insured. It's certainly one of the symptoms. I tend to blow it off most of the time since I'm not psychotic, manic or suicidal, but if I were ever to go back on medication I'd likely look back at these days and say "What were you thinking??? To try so hard when a simple pill could have made it so much easier is........oh duh, guess I shouldn't pull out the 'c' word here."
Add drug resistance to my faults.
45. AzureNW - May 14, 1999 - 5:10 PM PT
In nearly every dream I can remember, I've been aware that I was dreaming and can usually control the events of the dream to some extent. Nightmares are never a problem, but unfortunately, dreaming is often way too much fun on an average workday morning. Who wants to wake up and get ready for work when asleep you can breathe underwater like a mermaid or orbit the planet like a space shuttle? Since I know I can't be hurt, these kinds of dreams can get pretty bizzare. Space alien invasions are a common theme.
46. AuNaturel - May 14, 1999 - 5:22 PM PT
"Add drug resistance to my faults."
LOL! The DARE program worked too well on you, eh?
47. AuNaturel - May 14, 1999 - 5:42 PM PT
If you go to bed with the intent of remembering your dreams, you will usually have a better memory of them when you wake up.
You can also go to bed with the intent of controling your dreams. It's quite a bit more difficult to master but it can be done. I believe Budhists train intensively in what they call "lucid dreaming". I've been trying this for a while and find I now usually "fight my way thru" dreams that otherwise would have been nightmares.
Screaming and not making sound or trying to run and being trapped are very common. An external observer will usually see a lot of agitation in a sleeper experiencing these dreams, incoherent vocalizations and thrashing about. A kind bed partner will wake one up when this happens.
The dream subject I am most curious about is "night terrors". My daughter had these when she was 3-4 years old. Screaming and crying and thrashing about and could not be awakened by any means. The "book" sez not to worry about them but they are pretty damn dramatic the firat time you see them.
48. Slackjaw - May 14, 1999 - 6:09 PM PT
after a few weeks in graduate school I started doing decision theory and econometrics problems in my dreams. Some the ideas actually led to correct answers on difficult proofs.
49. DanDillon - May 14, 1999 - 7:42 PM PT
I once dreamt of this girl.
Then I got engaged to her.
50. DanDillon - May 14, 1999 - 7:43 PM PT
Wait, that really happened!
51. arkymalarky - May 14, 1999 - 10:08 PM PT
I don't do this any more, but for the first ten or more years of teaching, whenever it was getting close to time for school to start back up, I would dream that I'd just found out school had started back two weeks before, and I'd be trying to get ready, rushing around, knowing I was going to get fired for not showing up the first two weeks, and it would get later and later in the day as I was rushing to get ready to leave, until I knew I would not be able to make it to work before school was out for the day. Or I'd finally make it and when I got there the kids would be all over the room doing anything and everything and they wouldn't mind anything I said.
52. phillipdavid - May 14, 1999 - 10:17 PM PT
arky,
Most of us just have a little trouble sleeping the night before.
53. arkymalarky - May 14, 1999 - 10:40 PM PT
Really? That's not a standard teacher dream? That's funny, because in the dream everyone in the carpool is having the same problem I am.
54. rustlerpike - May 14, 1999 - 11:24 PM PT
I am dreaming that there is a Fray thread on dreams, and I am posting to it. In my dream, intelligent and knowledgeable people from all over the world respond to my inanities, and joke with me.
55. conniemack - May 14, 1999 - 11:52 PM PT
Had my first biofeedback session wednesday last, and that night, dreamt thus:
I was driving in my car (my dream car, not my real-life car), a Ford Tempo or somesuch, heading north, in the Plains States (to Canada, mebbe?) on a six-laner or so. The car was gray, the skies were gray. In the back seat was one of my cats, Tigger (a striper), and his 'catbox' and he was filling it. (We have a new catbox here, one with a roof.)
So I'm driving along, heading north, with some destination in mind, some sense of urgency. I have the usual travel flotsam in the car, but my daughters are nowhere to be seen, or felt, or known. Nor is our other cat. Just Tigger, and his shit in the back.
I pull over, reluctantly, to empty said box, and I'm kneeling by the side of the road, outside the back passenger door, scooping catshit out into the ditch, and I become aware of a presence at the rear of the car. I look up and see a very large man, about 6' 4", 270 lbs., a black man, in what I presume is a poli
56. ConnieMack - May 14, 1999 - 11:59 PM PT
I look up and see a very large man, about 6' 4", 270 lbs., a black man, in what I presume is a policeman's uniform, and he's gesturing to me and about to speak. I assume he'll say, "Do you need some assistance?" when I realize he's not a cop but dressed in what looks like a policeman's uniform and I panic, thinking of serial killers and the like, their wont to dress as law officers, and I jump in the car, locking the doors.
He comes around to the driver's side, where I am now located. I crank down the window a tad, say, "What do you want?" He says, "We were just wondering if you would sing for us Saturday night?" and goes on to tell me the where, what time, at some warehouse, in Chicago.
I am surprised, then flattered, and then try to figure out how I can situate myself for this event.
57. ConnieMack - May 15, 1999 - 12:07 AM PT
Hist:
I'm seeking my first real, true 'therapy'. Have chosen a PhD in psychology with heavy emphasis on physical/bio, and he's suggested this biofeedback thing as an adjunct.
"Dr. L" is an interesting man. He's fairly small in stature, but quite confident/comfortable and reassuring (this from a woman that seeks comfort from Large men). I'm going to, ostensibly, 'reveal' myself to him. I'm a little nervous. I'm a little skeptical. I'm also in some physical pain, which Dr. L feels can be alleviated, somewhat, with biofeedback.
He's also Very into dream interpretation.
I've also been, always, into same. Have read/pursued, to some extent, Jungian theory/therapy, etc.
I think the large black man in the faux cop's uniform must be Dr. L. I think my having a backseat full of catshit is me trying to get my shit together... and having a new box to get it together in? And me wanting him and not wanting him to help me get my shit together? I think traversing the Plains States (being from Kansas) is me fleeing. I think the cop/man wanting me to sing for 'them' is wanting me to emote -- g'wan, girl, get it out.
I think shades of gray are more easily absorbed.
Fade to black.
58. ConnieMack - May 15, 1999 - 12:08 AM PT
Oh, and I think dry roasted peanuts go better with martinis than sharp cheese.
In case you were wondering.
59. ConnieMack - May 15, 1999 - 12:18 AM PT
Oh, and between the third and fourth burst of light in bfb, I had the impression of rising through liquid, only it wasn't water, it was more gelatinous, and small, slow bubbles rising with me, and then thought of coming up/going down through layers of shale, plucking, picking, flaking away, and felt the pieces of ache shatter to dust, and saw Eden beneath the rubble.
60. ConnieMack - May 15, 1999 - 12:20 AM PT
... and to the lorn, goodnight.
61. rustlerpike - May 15, 1999 - 1:04 AM PT
Getting your shit together. Interesting!
62. rustlerpike - May 15, 1999 - 1:08 AM PT
I think it's interesting that the man was a cop. I see this as a good sign: forceful, but good, intervention. Then you aren't sure if you can trust this guy; are his brawns there for your assistance - or to damage you? But you do open the window a crack. Meaning, you are in control, and not that scared.
63. rustlerpike - May 15, 1999 - 1:12 AM PT
CalGal: you definitely have this need to categorize, file, and - sorry - archive things. Am I being out of line here?
64. CalGal - May 15, 1999 - 3:52 AM PT
RP,
Different things. The "dreadful confession" part of my post was because my tendency to categorize is already well-bitched about here in the Fray. No argument there.
File--no clue what you're talking about.
Archive--the posts themselves are meaningless. But information access interests me. I thought it would be fun to build a system to access data. Needed data. Lo! the posts. I'm not done with the system yet--I need the envelope around it. But that's why I build the archives.
65. AuNaturel - May 15, 1999 - 10:48 AM PT
People who sleep nude are much more often nude in their dreams than those who don't. Getting tangled up in the bedclothes can lead to some pretty horrific nightmares of being restrained or trapped. Or if you're into bondage, maybe not....
66. Wahhab - May 15, 1999 - 11:06 AM PT
Hi, ConnieMack. Policemen are an expressions of authority. In this dream the policeman carries an ambivalent quality--on the one hand your are afraid, but then when you have protected yourself within the barriers of your psyche (your car), you find that you are actually being invited to express yourself.
Although you could be projecting the authority quality onto your doctor, it is your inner authority that is figured. That was likely developed through your relationship with your father. Perhaps this points to the fact that the fear of your father can be transformed through this therapy....
Obviously, without meeting you or knowing more about your past, all this can only be in generalities and specualtion. Still, dreams are remarkably expressive of the psyche. Good luck in your therapy!
67. ConnieMack - May 15, 1999 - 12:35 PM PT
Thanks, Wahhab. Yeah, my father figure thingie is complicated, and causes no small amount of anger within me, something I only just realized in the past few years. And all along, I thought the 'issues' I had to deal with were with my mom, an individual imbued with extraordinary intelligence and curiosity who, alas, allowed same to lie fallow, for the most part.
And being in control or at the very least giving the impression of being in control has always been important to me. I like the impression that my 'car' is my psyche, and I am safe within, somehow....
Interesting stuff. I've always had vivid dreams; always talked in my sleep; walked in my sleep as a child. I Love my dreams, truth be told.
The cop/authority thing: I've worked on a regular basis around cops for 20 years, tend to trust and admire the good ones; recognize their necessity; understand the lack of appreciation they feel from the majority of the public. My cop/authority thing within the dream may be a bit more convoluted than it seems at first glance.
But again, we go back to my Father Figure Issue.
Gad.
Thanks, for listening to meandering today, maundering yesterday eve.
~ciao
68. cmboyce - May 15, 1999 - 6:42 PM PT
Message #44
It's none of my business, ChristinO, but I say "Get on those drugs, if you can!" If you're uninsured I don't know how, but since you seem not actually averse to the idea, you should try to work it out.
I've been on an SSRI now for over a year, after 30 years of reluctance (since going through college on some of their predecessors & deciding I didnt need that any more). The difference is spectacular; it doesn't make me happy in itself, but it _lets_ me be happy, at least enjoy things, when occasion comes along. And psychotherapy works better too, for I can address particular problems that residual depression aggravates, instead of nibbling at the different manifestations of my misery, etc.
On the Fray, I would not have known are depressed, in the sense that calls for reference3 to SSRIs; therefore I assume that for you, as for me, the disease has not been _disabling_, really, but that's no reason to tolerate it if you don't have to. And while the docs all say, No guarantees, doubtless with good reason, the drugs do work sometimes, as I and many can testify, and I recommend it.
69. PsychProf - May 16, 1999 - 6:35 AM PT
Good luck Connie.
70. RustlerPike - May 16, 1999 - 6:41 AM PT
CO: I'm having trouble accessing my e-mail, that's why I'm tardy in replying.
71. uzmakk - May 16, 1999 - 5:31 PM PT
I used to dream a great deal, like most people I guess, but haven't been able to recall a dream for the longest time. The feeling is that I no longer dream, although I understand that that is not true. One simply doesn't remember the dreams.
How about this vignette -- Mao, Nixon, and Breshnev are at some type of cocktail party and are visibly interested in the material and quality of eachothers suits. One feeling the sleeve of the other's suit, very chummy, a bit of envy perhaps. ...that is all.
72. AuNaturel - May 16, 1999 - 6:21 PM PT
"The difference is spectacular; it doesn't make me happy in itself, but it _lets_ me be happy, at least enjoy things, when occasion comes along."
That's what I've heard from people who were on SSRI medication. SSRIs are also used in treatment of obsessive-compulsive behavior, and occaissionally in ADD and ADHD as an alternative to Ritalin. You often have to "shop around" for the correct SSRI for a particular situation as they do not have identical effects on different people.
A real danger is starting to feel better, thinking you don't need the drug anymore and then quitting. Slowly you slip back to square one, so slowly you don't realize what is happening. At least one of the kids shooting at Littleton had gone off his meds to try to get into the Marines.
Fer sure you should be *real* cautious about playing with halucinogenic drugs if you are on an SSRI. SSRIs act as an effect multiplier for any halucinogen that either mimics or potentiates serotonin. (LSD, MDMA, psylocibin, pot etc.)
73. ChristinO - May 17, 1999 - 12:05 PM PT
cmboyce,
Thanks for the advice. I've been on SSRIs in the past and found them to be very helpful. I'll likely begin again with them----if for no other reason than that they help me sleep and to keep from losing my temper in traffic. ;->
When I was younger I used to dream in triplicate. I could see my own back-----an 8 year-old me wearing a red turtleneck and blue-jeans with embroidery on the pockects----as that self looked at a large movie-screen on which another me was living out the action of the dream. It was always kind of weird to see myself watching another self and at the same time be totally oblivious to that while I was caught up in the action of the dream. I think the strangest thing about it was that the middle self---the one watching the screen---was totally inaccessible to me-------I had no idea what was going on in that head even though it was mine.
I haven't dreamed like that in more than ten years, but I still remember it quite vividly.
74. uzmakk - May 17, 1999 - 3:41 PM PT
Triplicate. Wow, I never heard of that.
75. ChristinO - May 17, 1999 - 4:36 PM PT
I wonder if I'd be less or more tired if I lived in triplicate in the waking hours?
76. conniemack - May 17, 1999 - 9:45 PM PT
ChristineO:
You might want to 'suggest' to yourself to dream in triplicate again. Or maybe you don't need it anymore. What it may represent is the hidden you always remaining cloistered - even from yourownself. Then there is the loneliness factor - feeling/being separate and apart, even when (allegedly) self-revealing.
I dunno. I dunno jack about any of this. I've 'watched' myself in dreams many times, and been aware of it, and at times felt quite helpless to aid the dream self. But never have I watched myself watch myself.
77. ChristinO - May 18, 1999 - 8:36 AM PT
It's kind of a creepy feeling. Not like a nightmare, but not a particularly 'feel-good' kind of dream.
Speaking of nightmares: do most people have recurring nightmares or random single incidence nightmares?
78. theDiva - May 18, 1999 - 8:40 AM PT
Chris
My nightmares tend to have recurring themes, such as powerlessness (though I don't have those anymore) or not being heard (ditto, though I had TONS of them during my divorce) or losing Gracie (still do, but not as much as when I first went back into the paid workforce.)
79. JJBiener - May 18, 1999 - 8:51 AM PT
Christin - I have only had a handful of dreams that could even be classified as nightmares, so I can't be of much help there. In general, I don't have recurring dreams. On occaision though, I have dreams that are sequels to previous dreams.
My dreams tend to be very realistic, but they are not about "real" things. My dreams are usually about people I have never met, places I have never been and things I have never done. It is as if I living another life in my dreams. Sometimes the events in one dream will be related to events in previous dreams.
As I related in a previous post, sometimes these dreams and reality overlap and events that occur in my dreams occur IRL.
80. 109109 - May 18, 1999 - 8:53 AM PT
My nightmares are about a world without Diva, a world barren of all sense and meaning and desire, a world where I work 8 hours a day - no more, no less - as an automaton, with no before, now, or future, a world where lust, love, hate, anger, romance, risk are all churned into a meaningless hum.
And I also have that one where I'm naked in front of a classroom of kids dressed liked Kiss.
81. theDiva - May 18, 1999 - 8:57 AM PT
Niner! My dearest!
I fly to your arms!
82. 109109 - May 18, 1999 - 9:00 AM PT
My slumber is the peace of the Swiss when you appear, dearest.
83. JJBiener - May 18, 1999 - 9:03 AM PT
Diva and Niner flirting with each other, now there is a nightmare.
84. 109109 - May 18, 1999 - 9:08 AM PT
JJ
I wouldn't expect you to understand the celestial nature of my fondness for such an angel as Diva.
But can you help me out with the Kiss dream? (the bulk of the kids are Paul Stanleys).
85. theDiva - May 18, 1999 - 9:09 AM PT
JJ
This is no flirtation, this is an epic romance.....Tristan and Isolde, Antony and Cleopatra, Napoleon and Josephine, George and Gracie, Ike and Tina.....
86. TabouliJones - May 18, 1999 - 9:10 AM PT
You want a nightmare, try Paul Stanley as the lead in the Phantom of the Opera -- actually coming to Toronto this summer. Yikes.
87. theDiva - May 18, 1999 - 9:11 AM PT
Good God. The horror.
88. 109109 - May 18, 1999 - 9:13 AM PT
Gene Simmons would have been better. I always thought the Phantom lacked panache in the form of a really big, flicking tongue and blood pouring from his mouth.
89. cllrdr - May 18, 1999 - 9:50 AM PT
George and Gracie.
90. cllrdr - May 18, 1999 - 9:51 AM PT
Judith Regan and Marilyn Manson.
91. cllrdr - May 18, 1999 - 9:53 AM PT
Phillip Roth and Claire Bloom.
Woody and Soon-Yi.
Elliot and CalGal.
Hey -- this is fun! Add your own "Nightmare Couple"
92. theDiva - May 18, 1999 - 10:09 AM PT
Bruce and Demi
93. ChristiPeters - May 18, 1999 - 10:22 AM PT
Adam and Eve
94. cmboyce - May 18, 1999 - 10:36 AM PT
Message #93 belongs in the Religion thread.
95. ChristinO - May 18, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
I had a recurring nightmare as a kid where I would get on a slide that appeared normal at first and then would turn into an endless kind of roller coaster thing-----bad falling sensation. The worst would be that I would finally get off and not know where I was or how to get home and in trying to find my way back I'd stumble and end up on the slide again.
I tried to battle this one by forcing myself to ride the biggest roller coaster at a nearby themepark something like fifteen times in a row.
It worked.
Now I dream about elevators.
96. JJBiener - May 18, 1999 - 12:17 PM PT
Christin - Did you read Message #79? I was curious if you had any conjecture on why I dream the way I do.
97. ChristinO - May 18, 1999 - 12:24 PM PT
Diva,
I hear you on the powerlessness thing. My worst recurring nightmare----I still have it about six or eight times a year-----is that there's a killer after me and I'm trying to protect either a small child or animal but my charge is totally unaware of the danger. It seems that no one is aware of the danger but me. I'll go through a phase where the dream appears to be pretty normal---there are other people around and we're doing whatever but I always end up alone again trying to protect the child only when I finally come face to face with the killer the child has disappeared safe and sound and I'm the only one at risk. I end up stabbing or shooting or beating the thing in a frenzy while it appears not to be affected at all but I know that the minute I stop it will kill me.
The weird thing is that the killer changes. It hasn't been consistently one man or woman over the course of the years. In fact, they seem to have nothing in common with one another except the menacing energy. It's been a child, a man, a teenage girl, a woman and a grandmotherly sort. ick.
98. ChristinO - May 18, 1999 - 12:33 PM PT
JJ,
Maybe your subconscious mind is a novelist? I really don't know that much about dreams. A good friend of mine dreams similarly to the way that you do although her precognition is fairly rare. She's also able to bring people into her dreams----not other dreamers, but just sort of "cast" her dreams with whatever characters she likes.
Do you find that you dream any particular time of day/night with regularity?
99. PsychProf - May 18, 1999 - 12:48 PM PT
Aside from what I know about sleep/dreams Message #6, it is clear that the actual dream story is considered by most to be secondary to the insight and meaning thereof. My own opinion is that the intensity/topic of the dream is relevant, and the "feelings" generated at least tell us how we are dealing with our daily lives.
100. JJBiener - May 18, 1999 - 1:09 PM PT
Christin - I can't say that my dreams are associated with any particular time. I have been able to take control of some of my dreams. It is necessary for me to realize it is a dream, but I have a couple of ways of doing that. The easiest is to read something. If it is a dream, the words will change as I read them. These dreams tend to have a different quality about them than the realistic dreams I described earlier.
I seem to have at least three different types of dreams. One is made up of almost random images with recent events often being juxtaposed with nonsense images. The second type (described above) is more realistic but it still contains dream-like elements. For example, I may not be a participant in the dream, or I have telekinetic ability in the dream, or something similar. These are the ones where I can engage in lucid dreaming. The third type is what I described earlier where everything is internally consistent but beyond my experience.
It is the third type that I am most interested in, although the second type tends to be the most fun.