102. Pseudoerasmus - April 20, 1999 - 9:18 PM PT
I have no idea what n'uovo as opposed to nuovo is.
We have neuf oeufs done this before.
103. hashke - April 20, 1999 - 9:46 PM PT
PE:
Nuovo is nuovo is nuovo, but 'n'uovo' is on our ovarian theme -- 'n' + 'uovo', un giuoco di parole molto ingegnoso, no? Si non è vero è ben trovato, if Ei (das Ei des Kolumbus) do say so myself. I knew for sure you'd get it.
We've covered this subject 'ab ovo usque ad mala' but I'm willing to continue if you are.
104. IrvingSnodgrass - April 20, 1999 - 9:49 PM PT
Continue it in the Language thread. Unless you want to include some travel-related content.
105. Pseudoerasmus - April 20, 1999 - 9:53 PM PT
And I'd thought you might get:
che c'`e di nuovo => quoi de neuf => neuf oeufs.
Yes, of course I knew that n'uovo continued the ovarian theme, but I don't see the point of the apostrophe.
106. hashke - April 20, 1999 - 10:00 PM PT
Irv:
It IS travel-related. We keep egging each other on.
107. Pseudoerasmus - April 20, 1999 - 10:01 PM PT
Yes, egging Haske to get his ass over to T'uva.
108. hashke - April 20, 1999 - 10:10 PM PT
The apostrophe separates the yolk from the shell, so that non-eggheads can possibly deal with the complexities.
Yes, of course I got your neuf oeufs pun. That's why I played back on it. Do not to the mariachi of true minds admit impediments.
When I was last in Russia eggs were sky high in Moskva, but CHEEP CHEEP out in the villages. It was, however, a travail to do that kind of travel then because Intourist was always breathing down one's neck.
109. hashke - April 20, 1999 - 10:17 PM PT
Have you been in the Tuva region of Siberia and heard the throat singers?
How we dune, Irv?
110. Pseudoerasmus - April 20, 1999 - 10:42 PM PT
Message #109
What I've seen of the Russian Federation amounts to the big cities of European Russia plus Vladivostok and the Amur region of the Russian Far East. I've never seen Siberia at all, though I've been in Kazakhstan, which is pretty close.
Message #108
As for the overbearing Intourist of the Soviet days, I would gladly have accepted their annoyances if I could have seen Chechnya and Dagestan, which are now way way off limits. In fact, the Soviet era would have been ideal for travelling to the Caucasus as a whole, long before the Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan/Nagorno-Karabakh nonsense.
111. Pseudoerasmus - April 20, 1999 - 10:47 PM PT
And of course I'd be very interested in visiting Tuva. I believe the place, like northern Pakistan, is a confluence of several major mountain ranges: Sayan, Altai and a couple of other ranges. Plus, the Tuvans are a Turkic-speaking steppe-dwellers, and I'm always into those.
112. pellenilsson - April 20, 1999 - 11:33 PM PT
PE
I've always found Gibbon a good travel companion. He can be read and re-read.
113. Pseudoerasmus - April 20, 1999 - 11:52 PM PT
Message #112
That is possibly the worst suggestion I've ever heard. It's totally useless as a travelling companion.
In my multi-volume edition (Everyman's), DFRE amounts to something like 3500 pages, 20 cm thick and 5kg. And it doesn't exactly have large print.
I suppose I could use it against dacoits.
114. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 12:00 AM PT
Unless you had porters and elephants.
115. pellenilsson - April 21, 1999 - 12:33 AM PT
Here is a tip for Amercans travelling abroad with electrical appliances such as laptops. First, most countries have 220-240 V systems rather than 120 V. Nothing can be done about that but most laptop power adapters can handle both. A more serious problem is the bewildering variety of wall sockets. This can be solved by carrying a corresponding variety of adaptors.
But you can make your own universal adaptor in a few easy steps. Start with cutting away the plug from the cord. Then peel off the plastic insulation so that you have about half an inch of clean copper at the end of each conductor. It is now easy to push the ends into almost any type of socket and fix them in place with matches or toothpicks. I say almost because one has to consider the English variant which has a slit beneath the two holes carrying the current. You cannot insert your conductors unless you push some implement into the slit. A small screwdriver is ideal, but experience shows that certain types of car keys or teaspoons also do the trick. You will find something.
116. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 12:55 AM PT
I was reading Pseudo's itinerary and decided it would be fun to see exactly where he's going. I thought others might be interested, so here are some map links with his itinerary again:
Iran:
• Start in Tehran and go southeast through Kerman to Zahedan.
• Take the train from Zahedan to Taftan, in Pakistan.
Pakistan (I used the map showing all the mountain ranges, if this is onerous go to the index and select any of the other Pakistan maps):
• Taftan isn't on the map, but I assume it's right on the other side of Zahedan, and go northeast to Quetta
• Then take the train through Bolan Pass going due south to Karachi.
• Fly to Peshawar (northeast and hard to see--just to the left of Islamabad).
• I can't find an detailed map of the Northwest Frontier Province anywhere, and so can't find the exact location of Sust, where he picks up the Karakorum Hwy, or the Khunjerab Pass. Growl. I'm assuming it's right on the border.
117. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 12:56 AM PT
Xinjiang Province/East Turkestan--(The China map on the index I've been using doesn't have any detail of the area, so I went hunting and *this* time, I was successful. However, the map I found has "East Turkestan" printed prominently across it. Hmm. I couldn't see how I had the wrong map, since all the cities were the same. I went hunting again for East Turkestan. After the third "FREE EAST TURKESTAN" website, I got the general idea. )
• Tashkurgan to Kashgar to Urumqi to, hopefully, Turpan. Back to Urumqi in time to catch a flight to Moscow.
Russia
• "I will travel with her to the area around Chelyabinsk in the Ural mountains; Lake Baikal in central Siberia (just above Mongolia); and the Kamchatka Peninsula, whose eerie landscape and colderas are among the other many things I've longed to see."
Sorry if this was presumptuous, Pseudo, but I had fun tracing your future steps.
118. FreetoChoose - April 21, 1999 - 6:15 AM PT
Pseudoerasmus
“I like mountains and trekking and all that, but I don't understand why anyone would want to climb a mountain any higher than Kilimanjaro. Why Everest or K2 or even Nanga Parbat? … Just why bother with all the nonsense for such meagre rewards?”
The challenge.
Anyone that tells you it is for the view is wrong. The views can be spectacular, but the appreciation is whetted by the effort. In the same way that a home-grown tomato, ripe off the vine, tastes better than the grocery store version, the view after wiping ice crystals of sweat from the goggles is more satisfying than the same view from an airplane.
While I prefer a clear day to a cloudy one, achieving a summit on a cloudy day is only marginally less satisfying than a day with clear views. The goal is to get there under one's own power. The fleeting look around is secondary.
If it wasn't hard to do, it wouldn't be as satisfying. I used to try to explain this to everyone. But now, when someone tells me they cannot understand spending weeks in cold, eating bland food, coping with constant headache and pain, in return for a few brief minutes on a summit, I smile and nod. Many people cannot understand the satisfaction of proving a theorem. Many people cannot fathom the joy of discovering an insightful relationship between economic variables. Many people cannot understand what it is like to stand on top of some of the highest mountains in the world. I can, and that is all that is important.
119. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 7:03 AM PT
Irv,
A cousin of mine is heading to Bali in late June for her honeymoon. She knows very little about the place, and has booked into a hotel which apparently is on an island off Bali. Could you possibly share some tips and directions for her (and her husband) which could enable them to get to see something beyond the tourist strip and the large hotels? If they rent a car (or motorbike) can they easily get to experience the legendary non-touristy charm of the island?
120. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 7:19 AM PT
FTC,
I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. It was no big deal. My best experience at high altitude remains the 'Everest Flight' along the Himalayas which is conducted in a nice comfortable plane and takes all of one hour.
Which mountains have you climbed that gave you the wondrous experiences you describe above?
121. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 7:23 AM PT
Pelle,
That "universal adaptor" plan sounds incredibly dangerous, and more than most people could manage. Toothpicks and matches? Car keys and teaspoons? You're a more intrepid electrical experimenter than I.
As an alternative, anyone can buy a neat little set of adaptors at travel shops for about ten dollars. My own comes from as mundane a source as Boots in the UK and is easy to use and has proved valuable.
122. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 7:28 AM PT
FTC,
My query is not meant to be insulting. I'm quite taken by your soliloquy, especially by the tomato metaphor.
123. FreetoChoose - April 21, 1999 - 7:30 AM PT
marjoribanks
I haven't been particularly interested in Kilimanjaro, largely because it isn't much of a challenge. I may do it someday, but more because of an interest in seeing the area, as opposed to an interest in a climb.
My most memorable short trip was the Matterhorn. Not technically difficult, but awesome, and personally gratifying, because I took my father as a Christmas present. I get as much enjoyment out of hearing him describe it to others as I did from the climb itself.
More satisfying personally was a traverse (over the summit and down the other side) of Denali (aka McKinley) in 1990, and participation on the 1993 American Expedition to Shishapangma, one of the 8000 meter climbs. We put Ed Viesturs on the summit; anyone who has seen the IMAX Everest film will remember him.
124. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 7:37 AM PT
Does Shishapangma have a different name? I have a map of the Himalayas and can't see it there.
In any case, those climbs are impressive. You must be in good shape. Mountain climbing also requires a certain sort of obsessiveness which, frankly, I lack. You should do Kilimanjaro, it is not very challenging but the views along the well-trodden path to the summit are fantastic if you're lucky enough to set out on a clear day.
125. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 7:44 AM PT
Marj:
Late June may be a dicey time elsewhere in Indonesia, but Bali will be safe. Hotels here are fully booked from early May on. Do you know where your cousin will be staying? Please don't tell me Lombok. If it's Lombok, I would strongly advise changing the reservations to Bali itself. I can help if needed.
At any rate, I can help your cousin and her spouse see the real Bali. Have them e-mail me for pre-planning. And when they arrive, I'll be happy to give them pointers and even show them around if they wish. It's very easy to see the real Bali and have a non-tourist experience here. The Balinese people are very friendly and hospitable wherever you go, and it's easy to avoid the tourist traps. Renting a vehicle is one of the best ways to see Bali, as it's a small island and everything is easily accessible (although the people employ what a friend of mine who spent many years in India calls "Hindu driving"). There are many lovely and inexpensive places to stay away from the worst tourist scenes.
126. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 7:51 AM PT
Irv,
I believe it is Lombok. What's the problem with that place? Is it a separate island? If so, it's definitely Lombok that they're heading for. Where should they stay as an alternative?
Also, they don't have e-mail, believe it or not. But I'd really appreciate it if you could share some pointers on Bali here. I'm sure a lot of others would enjoy such material from a genuine Bali-hand like you. And I'll save every word in anticipation of my own trip in the next millennium.
127. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 8:03 AM PT
Marj:
Lombok is a separate island (20 minutes away by plane, or several hours by boat), and although it has beautiful beaches, it lacks the cultural magic of Bali. The society in Lombok is mostly Islamic (with a tiny minority of poverty-stricken Balinese), and is not very tourist-friendly. Given the attitudes of the Sasak people of Lombok and the unrest which is expected to surround the elections in Indonesia, I strongly recommend your cousin changing her plans and coming to Bali instead.
Bali will remain safe through the toughest times in Indonesia because of its culture, strong economy and easy-going attitude. With all the shit that's been going down elsewhere in Indonesia, Bali remains a peaceful, calm and friendly oasis. Your Luddite cousin (no e-mail???) will enjoy the simplicity of life here.
I can help your cousin and her spouse make reservations for their honeymoon in excellent and affordable accommodations. All you need do is tell me if they prefer beaches or mountains (I recommend mountains) and e-mail me their names.
I can also provide some excellent web-sites about Bali. But then again, that wouldn't do much good for your cousin, would it?
128. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 8:12 AM PT
Irv,
Thanks for the info. I will speak to my cousin tonight about changing plans.
Please link the websites anyway. But I'm interested in your own experiences in Bali. How has it been settling there, any interesting experiences to recount. What made you love Bali? That is, if you do. What makes the island so special compared to other beach paradises around the world?
129. FreetoChoose - April 21, 1999 - 8:42 AM PT
marjoribanks
Shishapangma is often identified on maps by its English appellation, Gosainthan. I have a map with the (I believe) Chinese name, Xixabangma.
It is located to the west of Everest, almost due north of Kathmandu.
Shishapangma
130. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 8:47 AM PT
Marj:
Sheesh, I could spend hours answering those questions.
I fell in love with Bali the first time I visited in 1977, and have always dreamed of living here. I never had a way to make it economically feasible until the rest of Indonesia made it the only economically feasible place to live.
It's really hard to put into words what makes Bali so special. I've been to tropical paradises in various parts of the world, and, for the most part, they are nothing but nice beaches. And I'm not much of a beach person. What makes Bali special to me (and many others who are enchanted by this place) is the culture, the atmosphere, the art, the music. the unique architecture, the religion, the people. A list like that sounds so trite, but taken all together, they create a magic which has to be experienced. The beaches, though very nice, are not important to me, and I've been to a beach maybe three times since moving here 9 months ago (even though they are 5 minutes from my house).
I would be very happy to spend the rest of my life here. I doubt I could ever find a place I felt so happy living in.
I'll link some web sites for you a little later on.
131. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 8:48 AM PT
FTC,
Wow, that's the thirteenth highest mountain in the world.
How high did you go? It would be interesting to hear some of your experiences as a member of that climbing party.
132. FreetoChoose - April 21, 1999 - 9:10 AM PT
marjoribanks
I made it to Camp 4, the highest Camp before the summit, at 7400 meters (about 24,000 feet). I was on the second summit team, both ready and able to go, but the first team returned to report that the climbing conditions were dangerous, with slabs of ice breaking off. Ed Viesturs made it to the summit, but was closer to losing it than he deemed reasonable. As a group, we had previously decided that we would not go on in case of unacceptable danger. It was disappointing to turn back, but it was the right decision.
I did my (very small part) to clean up the mountain, In addition to carry off everything I carried on, I brought back an oxygen bottle with Russian lettering on it. We believe it was left by a Czech expedition.
133. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 9:22 AM PT 135. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT 136. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 9:40 AM PT 137. hashke - April 21, 1999 - 9:40 AM PT 138. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 9:43 AM PT 139. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 9:44 AM PT 140. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 9:47 AM PT 141. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 9:47 AM PT 142. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 9:51 AM PT 143. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 9:52 AM PT 144. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 9:55 AM PT 145. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT 146. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 10:08 AM PT 147. hashke - April 21, 1999 - 10:10 AM PT 148. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 10:13 AM PT 149. incognito - April 21, 1999 - 10:15 AM PT 150. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 10:31 AM PT 151. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 10:40 AM PT 152. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 10:43 AM PT 153. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 10:43 AM PT 154. pellenilsson - April 21, 1999 - 10:49 AM PT 155. IrvingSnodgrass - April 21, 1999 - 10:50 AM PT 156. hashke - April 21, 1999 - 11:19 AM PT 157. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 11:52 AM PT 158. glendajean - April 21, 1999 - 12:08 PM PT 159. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 12:30 PM PT 160. hashke - April 21, 1999 - 12:45 PM PT 161. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 12:54 PM PT 162. PseudoErasmus - April 21, 1999 - 12:56 PM PT 163. PseudoErasmus - April 21, 1999 - 12:59 PM PT 164. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 1:05 PM PT 165. PseudoErasmus - April 21, 1999 - 1:19 PM PT 166. PseudoErasmus - April 21, 1999 - 1:25 PM PT 167. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 1:29 PM PT 168. davidtudor - April 21, 1999 - 1:56 PM PT 169. PseudoErasmus - April 21, 1999 - 1:57 PM PT 170. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 2:03 PM PT 171. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 2:15 PM PT 172. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 2:16 PM PT 173. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 2:17 PM PT 174. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 2:19 PM PT 175. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 2:27 PM PT 176. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 2:36 PM PT 177. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 2:38 PM PT 178. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 2:41 PM PT 179. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 2:44 PM PT 180. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 3:14 PM PT 181. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 3:15 PM PT 182. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 3:28 PM PT 183. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 3:36 PM PT 184. hashke - April 21, 1999 - 3:39 PM PT 185. AzureNW - April 21, 1999 - 3:54 PM PT 186. marjoribanks - April 21, 1999 - 3:59 PM PT 187. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 4:08 PM PT 188. AzureNW - April 21, 1999 - 4:22 PM PT 189. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 4:26 PM PT 190. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 4:29 PM PT 191. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 4:32 PM PT 192. AzureNW - April 21, 1999 - 4:42 PM PT 193. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 4:51 PM PT 194. Pseudoerasmus - April 21, 1999 - 4:52 PM PT 195. AzureNW - April 21, 1999 - 5:04 PM PT 196. arkymalarky - April 21, 1999 - 5:07 PM PT 197. AzureNW - April 21, 1999 - 5:22 PM PT 198. arkymalarky - April 21, 1999 - 5:25 PM PT 199. AzureNW - April 21, 1999 - 5:26 PM PT 200. ProfEmeritus - April 21, 1999 - 5:41 PM PT
Marj:
Here are some Bali sites for you. Enjoy!
Best Sites
Bali Online (site managed by a friend of mine)
Lonely Planet Destination - Bali
Bali Paradise Online
Open World Guide - Bali
Asia Travel - Bali
GoVacation Indonesia - Bali
Bali Travel Web
Bali handicrafts (I'm only including this because it's *my* site)
Second Tier sites (but still worthwhile):
Bali Echo
Bali Maps
Dave Medunick's Bali
Bali Today
Bali Travel Forum
Access Bali Online
Bali Fast Facts
Bali Network
Welcome to Bali
Bali - The Pages
Bali - The Online Travel Guide
Balinesia
A couple more second tier sites:
CapitolHill/4999/">Regency of Badung, Bali
Article on Bali from USA Today
One correction:
Regency of Badung, Bali
Well, Malta would be for me what Bali is for Snirv: my idea of island paradise with nice though slightly rocky beaches, sheer cliffs, inland seas, caverous coves, etc. etc. What's more, the place remains mind-bogglingly romantic, despite the many short trips I've taken there: Arab fortresses overlooking Baroque palaces, Norman churches built atop Greek & Roman temples, Carthaginian ruins strewn about randomly, not just in cities but in the countryside as well as next to the beaches. More importantly, the place is sleepy enough and the people simple enough without being primitive: just as the Balinese are famously wont to do, the Maltese spend half the year at various festivals, though in the familiar Catholic way of throwing confetti at the statues of various saints. And where else can you get the right Anglo-Arab-Sicilian atmosphere? Plus, it has EXCELLENT location: half way between Libya and Sicily.
Irv:
Go easy on Bali, will you? You'll have todo el mundo moving there!
What are the chances of the place becoming seriously overcrowded within the next ten years or so?
On that subject in the snob thread of where one would live if one might live elsewhere than where one lives now:
Malta would be my first choice, then Sicily, though I could imagine living in three dozen other places, at least for several years.
Pseuder,
No snorkelling worth mentioning. Malta fails on that count.
Message #139
Well, you can go shark-feeding underwater, which along with swimming among dolphins is about the only interesting underwater activity as far as I'm concerned.
Though I suppose underwater ruins-exploring would be fun, and I'd like to do it.
Irv,
Er, thanks for the many links.
BTW, your entrepreneurism, even in Bali, is impressive.
PE:
Malta is on my list of places I'd like to visit. And you're sure right about the Balinese festivals.
hashké:
Overcrowding was never a concern while Bali was just a simple tourist paradise. But with the troubles in Indonesia, more and more middle and upper class Indonesians have been moving here. About 20,000 Chinese from Jakarta and Surabaya moved here last year, and brought their money with them, investing it in businesses around Bali, which has created an acute labor shortage and a healthy economy. So now large numbers of jobless Indonesians from East Java and Lombok are moving here. In addition, many families like mine have come here for better security. My daughter's school doubled in enrollments last year, and will double again this year. One of her classmates is the granddaughter of the Sultan of Banda (in Maluku).
The Balinese pride themselves on their tolerance and, to be sure, have welcomed all these newcomers with open arms. But one would think there will have to be a limit. Strangely enough, no one is even talking about limiting newcomers, and more arrivals are expected this year. The only complaint I hear from Balinese is that land prices have doubled in the past year. Of course, I wisely bought my land *before* the price doubled.
hahské:
I wouldn't want todo el mundo to move here, but I wouldn't mind them *visiting*.
Btw, Marj, there's world-class snorkeling and scuba diving around Nusa Lembongan and Nusa Penida, off the southeast coast of Bali, as well as on the northwest coast. And, as is well-known, great surfing at Kuta and Legian beaches on the southwest coast.
Bali
Island places I have loved (excluding major countries):
Malta
Sicily
Kefallonia (Greece)
the Isle of Wight (well, not loved, but really underrated)
Martinique
Azores
Gavdopoula (Greece)
Islands I have found shitty:
Barbados
Bermudas
Okinawa (unless you're into American GIs with tawdry local hangers on)
Corfu
Mallorca
the Canaries (full of Brit hooligans or hooligan wannabes & yobs & other vile persons)
Island places I really want to see:
Socotra
Zanzibar
most of the Indian Ocean chains, including the Maldives
Andaman & Nicobar islands
the Malaccas
the Bijagos Islands
Madeira Islands
Aleutian Islands
Kuril Islands
Sakhalin
the Zemlyas
Wrangel Island
Fiji
(Unlike most people I can't get interested in the Caribbean or Polynesia, except for a very few items)
Irv Message #142:
Thanks! I have thought that would be so. Of course, you have just hopped up much more of todo el bloody mundo with that animated post and those titillating links.
PE:
I guarantee you would find Bali fascinating, for cultural and historical reasons, in addition to the beauty of the island.
I enjoyed Grand Cayman quite a lot.
But I guess the Malaccas aren't an island group, but a bunch of places on either side of the strait in Malaya and Sumatra, correct?
PE:
Malacca is a mainland state in Malaysia, which was ruled by the Portuguese, Dutch, and English in turn, and still has a small community of people claiming descent from the Portuguese, and having Portuguese family names, but lacking any remnants of the language and culture.
The Moluccas are an island group in Eastern Indonesia, once home of the famous Spice Island sultanates of Tidore and Ternate, but now the scene of widespread ethnic strife.
The biggest beach dump in the world must be Karachi's Clifton Beach. Once a coastal retreat for the British, and though still dotted with magnificient colonial mansions, it's now a squalid cesspool washing up camel dung and frequented by melancholy beggars. Marzipranks would probably enjoy the ample snorkelling opportunities at Keamari, though.
Of course, if Pakistan could ever get its act together and overcome just a little bit of its aversion to exposed Western female bodies, the vast Makran could be a kind of Costa del Sol, but that will never happen.
Message #151
Ah yes, I was thinking of the Moluccas.
marj Message #121
"That "universal adaptor" plan sounds incredibly dangerous, and more than most people could manage."
It's the challenge, marj, the challenge and the self-sufficency.
PE:
For really ugly beaches, it would be hard to outdo Jakarta's stretch on the highly-polluted Jakarta Bay. The city has tried to gussy it up with an amusement park, a golf course, an art market and a beach resort, but it still sucks.
A couple of the worst beaches I've seen are in Spain, one off Málaga, the other in Galicia, near Bayona. No camel dung, but plenty of other turd species on and off beach, the latter beaches annexed and haunted by not-a-clue (no-saben-mejor) gallegos in huge familial galaxies, munching barnacles (percebes) and chattering like prarie dogs.
Oh God, most Iberian beaches are dumps, as far as I'm concerned. The Costa del Sol and the Algarve are some of the most overrated places in Europe. Filthy, unjustifiably expensive, packed with fat Germans and vile Brits, and without the amusing kitsch-glitz of the Côte d'Azur. The Canaries and the Balearics are just extensions of this Iberian undesirability. I really like Spain, just not its coastal regions.
There is a review in the current NY Review of Books by Robert Craft about a new release in Britain of previously uncollected EM Forster writings.
Craft writes, "The best of the other pieces are on India, a subject on which 'it is impossible to be too intricate.' All nine articles on its intricacies are still worth the time of anyone planning to visit the country" ... and goes on to give Forster's description of train travel in India from a 1913 piece.
One other quote: "In declaring his bias toward Hinduism, Forster can sound like a disciple of Chrisopher Isherwood: 'Hinduism, unlike Christianity and Buddhism and Islam, does not invite [a man] to meet his god congregationally; and this commends it to me."
Does anyone had advice on how to get to Greece (and stay for about two-three weeks) for as little as possible?
PE:
I don't mind fat Germans or paunchy Brits as long as they are not so sordidly vile as to drop their luncheon detritus -- pieces of Wurst, crumpets, dribblings of cut beer -- on me en passant.
Some of the finest coastline is off Yugoslavia, the Adriatic in the vicinity of Dubrovnik. Some fairly good beaches here and there, but the best is to climb down the rocky slopes where thare are no beaches, peel off and dive into pristine water with only a jay-bird nekkid Swedish couple (I wonder if it was pelle and love) lurking and chortling nearby.
And I won't bore you with some of the spectacular Mexican coastal areas, all of which I shall leave unnamed...because the best ones are unnamed.
Anyone around here actually like an American beach? Newport, Rhode Island has a beautiful coastline, so does S. california.
Hashke: I saw quite a bit of Yugoslavia in 1988. Perhaps you missed my report on the nudist beach near Dubrovnik I went to in the Serb thread. There too fat Germans and Scandinavians reigned.
Jenerator: Athens and the major islands -- Mikonos, Rhodes, etc. -- are very exensive in the tourist season. But you can pick up any half-way decent guide book for indepedent travellers to find bargains. The best time to go is spring or fall, not summer.
PE,
Thank you for getting back to me, I don't suppose you have any hotel recommendations, etc. for me? My Greek friends all say to just go and not worry about the lodging, and that as Americans, we will be treated like royalty, but that's not my kind of planning!
Hashke: Finding a deserted beautitful beach in Mexico is like finding an anchor in a haystack. There are zillions of them. Virtually the whole coastline between Cancun and Tulum (one of the less visited Mayan sites) is full of them. Baja California, though I haven't been there, must also be full of such possibilities.
Jenerator: Hotels? Do you mean something along the lines of a Hilton? Sorry, when I travel, I only stay with friends, relatives or crappy lodgings -- unless I desperately require creature comforts for recovery. But Greece is FULL of cheap accomodations, including hostels and local families (on the islands and in the countryside). Why not just go without any plans for accomodations? Unless you're going in the height of summer or Easter, there is no reason. That's more adventurous anyway, and since you're blond the locals will help you out a lot.
Hashke: I'm only going on about vile Brits & Germans just to balance the obloquy heaped on American tourists. Though working-class Brits, particularly on vacation, ARE pretty vile.
PE,
You sound like my friends when you say "Go without plans for accommodation". Perhaps I am not used to that sort of traveling spontanaeity, or generally speaking, Greeks are more welcoming than others, and I'm just not used to that.
I have a place to stay in Crete, but I plan on staying in many different cities. I don't mind cheap lodgings. As for comfort features, bathrooms are good, windows too. What I am in for if I go the cheap route?
(Standards of comfort differ from country to country!)
Words not of wisdom, or put another way, the boy author has a lot to learn:
"Well, surely, a married couple could withstand the occasional 2-3 months of separation."
Tain't the reality that matters, Pseudo, its the perception. Like the wife's.
Depends on how cheap, but facilities for independent travelling in Greece are quite developed. Typically, the worst you might end up with is having to share a bathroom. But that shouldn't be a big deal. If you go to the less visited islands -- Kefallonia, for instance -- you could stay in a cottage for next to nothing. Outside Thessaloniki, in the countryside, you might find accomodations which amount to converted barns, for five or six to a room. Warning: the big cities of Greece are a big disappointment. Athens and Thessaloniki are sprawling tenemented polluted congestions, punctuated by the occasional glimpses of antiquities transformed into global kitsch visions.
The part you would probably most enjoy is the heartland of old Greece, the Pelepponese, which has got most of the famous cities including Corinth, Myceneae, Sparta, etc. They're tourist traps, but at least they're not overdeveloped urban centres. For the overwhelming Thumper in you, try Mystras, a city amid which mountains I forget, but it was a brief period of time the capital of the Byzantine Empire and a refuge for Constantinople's aristocratic families fleeing from the Ottomans.
But the screamingly undiscovered untouristed place in all of Greece must be Gavdopoula, an uninhabited island off Crete.
Of course, there is no reason to avoid the overtouristed islands in Greece. The multicultural, pan-European overcongestion is fun, socially speaking.
Calgal: For some reason I didn't see your Message #116 and #117 before. No, not presumptuous in the least.
But two notes. Sust, the border town near the Khunjerab Pass, is not in the Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP). Rather it's in the Northern Areas, sometimes referred to as the Northern Administrative Territories (which is the correct translation from the Urdu). Just as Azure did the other day, the two places tend to get confused, even though they are quite different in most ways.
First, climactically, the NA are alpine. You can't go there outside of summer. The NWFP, by contrast, is topographically diverse. Peshawar and the districts bordering Afghanistan are arid and rocky. Hazara and Chitral are alpine. The Indus Kohistan is a humid river valley.
The NA are an ethnically, linguistically and religiously diverse hodgepodge of former khanates, statelets and kingdoms (some of them only recently incorporated into Pakistan). Even though the rest of the country aren't exactly slouches in linguistic diversity, nonetheless there are more languages spoken in the NA than elsewhere in the country. One curiosity is Burushaski, a language isolate, totally unrelated to any language in South & Central Asia, whether Indo-Iranian, Altaic, Dravidian or Sino-Tibetan. Also, unlike most of Pakistan which is Sunni, the NA have got lots of Shiite Muslims as well as most of Pakistan's Ismaili Muslims who revere the Aga Khan. (The charities of the Aga Khan Foundation are ubiquitous in the hyper-backward NA.)
More importantly, the NA have no official or legal status. They exist in political limbo, unrepresented in the National Assembly. This is because the NA are technically part of the state of Jammu & Kashmir, which according to the phony official Pakistani policy doesn't belong to any country until a referendum decides its fate.
Basically, the NA -- comprised of such ancient remote kingdoms as Hunza, Baltistan and Gilgi
PE,
Thank you.;-)
Basically, the NA -- comprised of such ancient remote kingdoms as Hunza, Baltistan and Gilgit -- were once part of the Sikh Empire that included Kashmir, Ladakh, and parts of Punjab. These the British in the 1840s annexed and repackaged as the State of Jammu & Kashmir and then sold off to some Hindu prince. In 1947 at the time of partition, the Maharaja of Kashmir gave Kashmir to India, but the local rulers of the NA revolted and the area devolved to Pakistan. (Pakistan also got a sliver of Kashmir proper called Azad Kashmir, or "Free Kashmir". Interestingly, although it's still technically only an administered territory, Azad Kashmir is a real province in all but name, unlike the NA, and is fully represented in the National Assembly.)
In contrast to the NA, the NWFP is a full-fledged and ethnically near-homogeneous province inhabited primarily by Pathans. It's also fully represented in the National Assembly and home to perhaps half of Pakistan's army officers. The place was concocted by the British as a buffer state between Afghanistan and British India. The constituent elements from which the British created the NWFP are the many khanates & kingdoms -- Chitral, Dir, Swat, Hazara, Kohistan, Peshawar -- as well as the seven autonomous tribal areas or "agencies", where British law never applied and Pakistani law continues to have no force. Today the Pakistani government basically continues the British relationship with the tribal areas, by stationing an "agent" in each of them. I have a relative who was once the agent in Mohmand. He says it was one of the most hair-raising experiences of his life.
By the way, the Ismailis are pretty laid back -- they don't hide their women like other Muslims do. Consequently, their women are the only ones visitors without relatives in Pakistan could meet. Well, other than the pagan Kalasha in Chitral, who also don't mind showing off their colourfully dressed women. (Educated & westernised women abound in Pakistan, but you can't meet them in public. You must meet them in relative seclusion.)
PE,
I hope this isn't too personal, but where do you think you and your fiance will be vacationing on your honeymoon? As well traveled as the two of you are, is finding a favorite spot difficult?
Pakistan's provinces are: Sind, Baluchistan, Punjab, the NWFP. Its territories include the Northern Areas, the Islamabad Federal Territory and Azad Kashmir. The seven tribal agencies have autonomous status.
As late as the 1970s, there were several of other autonomous states ruled by nawabs, khans and others. One such is Bhawalpur Division in southern Punjab, bordering the Cholistan desert (actually the Pakistani side of India's Thar desert). It was until the 1960s ruled by a family claiming descent from the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad. The family are still there in Bhawalpur, though their influence is overwhelmed by the Emir of Dubai, who has virtually bought the Cholistan desert as his own private hunting & falconry domain.
I take it that DOES mean my question is too personal?
Pseudo,
Do you know, recent events have caused me to become aware of Pakistan for the first time in my life (until that time, "Pakistan" and "Karachi" were synonomous in the CalGal lexicon) and I *knew* the difference between NWF and NA! But I assumed, wrongly, that you wouldn't go anywhere near the NA so figured that Sust was in the NWF. Had I looked closely, I would have figured out that the NWF didn't touch China. Silly.
Once I searched in alta vista for Kashmir map Pakistan, lo! Look what I found!
Kashmir region, Pakistan/China border
In the same damn collection, too. Teach me to try to cheat by going through indices.
It still doesn't have Sust, but it shows where the Khunjerab Pass is. I am content.
Message #175
I've no idea, as of yet. I'm not as well travelled as I would like to be. There are zillion places I haven't seen but would like to.
I have heard fabulous stories about Sorrento.
Marzipranks: For future reference, what do you think of this possible itinerary? Where does one cross into China from Nepal? Can one? Can one cross into China from India?
Message #180
Well, that whole region containing Sorrento is one of the most heavily visited in Italy. The area includes Capri, Amalfi, Naples, Pompeii, Herculaneum and Ischia. A travel thread which endlessly launches into superlatives would get tedious, but the reputation of the region is well deserved. The best way to see it, Jenerator, is by car along the windy, cliffy Sorrento Peninsula. I nearly died there in the manner memorialised by Grace Kelly. Actually, there is a standard route for the drive which ends in a town called Minori, but I can't remember where it begins.
Pseudo,
"Where does one cross into China from Nepal? "
Kodari to Zhangmu, apparently.
Really, the things one can learn online.
Jenerator Message #177:
Would you tell your mother-in-law where you are going on your honeymoon?
PE:
I was referring primarily to the relative emptiness of the messcan pacific coast. I have been in the jungles of the Yucatán, to Uxmal, Chicken Itches, etc. The jerry-built town of Cancun is ein gottverlassenes Dorf, a finstere medina', as they say in Yiddish.
One of the better pieces on Brit homeland vacation habits is Theroux's 'Shallys', I think from "The Kingdom by the Sea".
No, I did not see your post on nude beaches in Yugoslavia. What is the ref number? My wife and I did frolic in those spots at times, but preferred the sloped, granite-bouldered seaside where only an occasional nymphet was to be seen.
There's a semi-nude beach near where I live called Teddybear, where some people wear swimsuits and some don't. The ones who don't seem to enjoy shocking the ones who do by asking what time it is, or asking if you mind if they walk around naked. It is kind of a jolt to be approached by a naked stranger and its difficult to stay politely nonchalant. It must be funny for them to watch.
Pseuder,
There is now a navigable border crossing open between Nepal and Tibet. You can actually drive on a good road all the way from Kathmandu to Lhasa, I'm told.
As yet, no ordinary traveller can cross the Indian border directly into China.
Jenerator: I picked up this book earlier today. I can't wait to read it.
Hashke: I've seen the Mayan stuff in both the Yucatan pensinsula and Guatemala (Chicken Tikkal?), but I prefer those around Mexico City, the Aztec & Toltec stuff. I also don't much care for tropical environments. When it comes to vegetation, I prefer forests in temperate or arid zones to tropical jungles. (This is not on account of intolerance for humidity, which I lack, but out of aesthetics.)
That's probably why the parts of Mexico I like most are Mexico City (despite its dirt, pollution and dangers), the outskirts like Cuernavaca, and the northern areas. The best travel experience I've had in North America was the train ride from Los Mochis to Chihuahua, across both desert and the Sierra Madre Occidental. That's my kind of trip. So would Baja Calif., but I ran out of time for that. I also missed Oaxaca.
I haven't spent much time in Mexico yet. My spouse is an albino who burns to a blistered crisp in 15 minutes of sunlight in temprate zones, so trips to the tropics haven't worked out very well for us.
Marzipranks: I would lengthen the India/Pakistan part of the hypothetical itinerary in Message #181 to include a complete trip on the Grand Trunk Road, all the way down to Calcutta, then take a wide berth U-turn toward Nepal.
I tell you, the inability to cross into China from India, or the apparent difficulty of overland entry into Burma, is a variation on philistinism I find intolerable.
Message #188
The sun is not stronger in the tropics than in dry areas. The tropics are a matter of moisture, not heat. But the top half of Mexico is dry dry dry. After all, a lot of it extends the topography of the American Southwest.
Oh, Hashke: I believe my post on nudist Yugoslavia disappeared into the abyss.
"The sun is not stronger in the tropics than in dry areas."
Are you sure about that? Even I sunburned a bit in Alcapolco (however it's spelled), I thought because the more direct rays of sunlight nearer the equator are more intense.
Azure, well, maybe there's some scientific basis for that? But I'm not sure how it can be. One of the hottest places on earth (during summer) is supposed to be the Gobi Desert. I've ever been there, but do you realise how far away it is from the equator?
Conversely, if you go to Quito, Ecuador, which is quite literally on the equator, it's not humid at all. But then Quito is 10,000 feet above sea level.
errata
"I've ever been there" = I've NEVER been there
Well, it's supposedly the greater amount of ultraviolet light from tropical sun rather than the heat that causes more sunburn nearer the equator.
"UV is strongest at the equator, and gets weaker as you go towards the earth's poles. The poles receive the least UV. If you live in southern Canada, you will receive more UV than if you live in the Arctic."
sunburn
Sorrento is one place I'd love to go back to and spend a few weeks. I wish my husband and I could find some kind of summer job there. We didn't enjoy Capri, but it was so crowded, not just with people but with stores and restaurants, that we never really got to enjoy the beauty of the island. The only thing I didn't like about Sorrento was the bee-buzzing motorscooters. The driver in our tour was from Naples, and he really loved living there.
Did you see the cliffs PE almost drove off while you were there, arkymalarky?
Yes, and it was beautiful, but scary in a bus because it felt top-heavy. I didn't really like the way people drove in Italy, and I was glad we had a good driver who was from the area.
(When my son and his wife had their little shotgun wedding, they couldn't afford any kind of honeymoon or even a day off from work. So I rented a suite of rooms for them in the Sorrento hotel, the same suite that's featured in the movie "Sleepless in Seattle.")
Southeast Asia is a beautiful travel destination, generally speaking. My personal interest is local cultures and people, not so much "sights" or beaches. But I have been dragged to many beaches throughout Southeast Asia. Many have been very disappointing. I noticed evaluations of beaches in earlier posts, so here are some more comments to warn folks away from inferior beaches. All of the following were below my expectations.
I won't comment on Bali, covered well by Irv (I agree Bali has many lovely beaches). But the first one I visited in 1954, Sanur, was not great.
In other areas of Indonesia there are many of the world's best beaches. Here are some to keep away from if your travel agent gives them high recommendations:
Balikpappan
Banda Aceh
Lhokseumawe
Samosir Island (somewhat disappointing)
Lake Toba " "
Pulau Seribu (mnay, many islands, literally "Thousand Islands"
Pelabuhan Ratu (Irv may not agree with me on this one)
Ujung Pandang (Makassar)
Ende
Mborong
Can you guess what islands the above beaches are on?
In Thailand:
Songkhla (especially this highly touted beach)
Hua Hin
Phuket (again, I doubt that Irv agrees)
In The Philippines:
Cavite
Lake Taal
Davao
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