8402. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 11:21 AM PT
JJ:
Do you think that Rosie's posts have gone beyond immoderate criticism into Jexterian realms of dementia? At least Jexter/Colossus is on the right side on this, IMO.
8403. ycmeehan - June 14, 1999 - 11:25 AM PT
Wombat,
I read this not long ago by a critic of the works of a photographer named Sherman. Explaining how the artist's pictures profoundly affected him, he said:
"Sherman proves to me again and again that my unconscious mind does not belong to me, that it is a bin of infinitively suggestible cultural and perhaps genetic patterns of ready-made meaning"
Maybe, some of us have less control on our unconscious than others have. Maybe some of us are unable to be objective when it comes to one's country or family.
Tell me, do you think that Jade was banned for ever from the Fray?
8404. Ronski - June 14, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
Serbian Bosnians did indeed start the entire mess, that is, the violent dissolution of Yugoslavia, as opposed to the pieceful process of states choosing to go their own way, such as Slovenia did. The Serbs bombed the ancient city of Dubrovnik (earlier the Republic of Ragusa). And talk about long memories, Dubrovnik, now in Croat hands, had been an economic partner and outlet to the sea for Serbs many centuries before, even when it was a Dalmation-speaking citystate, Dalmation being a Romance language, now dead. Some of the nuttier Serbs thought they could get Dubrovnik back as a seaport, though technically as political territory they never even had it.
8405. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 11:37 AM PT
Knowing Jade, she has probably decided not to associate herself any further with Slate because of her suspension. While I sometimes found her vituperation excessive, the fury that she aroused because of it was worth it to me.
8406. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 11:40 AM PT
Ronski:
I thought things began to unravel when Milosevic assumed the rotating Presidency of Yugoslavia and made it clear that he was going to rule as Serbian Nationalist first and as a Yugoslav second.
8407. pellenilsson - June 14, 1999 - 11:42 AM PT
Rosetta
This is the first time I have commented on one of your posts. The reason is that this one shows that your ignorance is really profound and your ability to ignore history limitless.
" rained death from
15,000 feet on men, women and children.
Isn't that what the nazis used to do?"
One word, Rosetta, just one word.
Dresden.
8408. Ronski - June 14, 1999 - 11:47 AM PT
Wombat,
You pose another excellent spot to lay the first blame. Of course, ultimately it gets to be like the Middle East, with the Arabs refusing a partitioned state in 1948 as the first cause of the trouble, when all any sensible person wants now is for the crisis to end and peace (if not good feelings) to return.
8409. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 11:57 AM PT
Ronski:
The Middle East is all Moses' fault! Why couldn't the Jews have stayed in servitude in Egypt!
The break up of Yugoslavia was not handled well by Europe and the United States. The Bush administration deferred to Germany, which advocated an immediate dissolution. Everyone "dodged a bullet" when Slovenia seceded (after a week-long war that they now call their "War for Independence.") Croatia, and then Bosnia were different.
It is interesting to note that while this was happening, the Bush Administration warned that any attempt by the Serbs to violently repress dissent in Kosovo would be met by force from the US and NATO.
8410. Ronski - June 14, 1999 - 12:09 PM PT
Wombat,
As I posted some months ago, the U.S. and Europe should have bombed the sites that were used for shelling Dubrovnik, which was the first military violence of any consequence. Instead, they let things fester. The Bush pledge over Kosovo in the face of apathy otherwise remains a mystery to me, though it fuels all sorts of speculation in the American Far Left, from what my occasional forays into Pacifica Radio tell me.
8411. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 12:58 PM PT
Only a Serb could think this a victory!
"This is like the Germans fleeing Eastern Europe after World War II," said a senior diplomat from a NATO country who has been working with humanitarian agencies. "What happened to the Germans there from 1945 to 1947 was the greatest movement of people since the end of the war, not Kosovo. Millions of Germans, perhaps 40 million, fled and no one had any sympathy, because they were Guilty. It's a little bit like that now."
The diplomat said he was sorry for the Serbs and for "the likelihood of an ethnically clean Kosovo."
I'm on the verge of tears myself!
8412. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 1:02 PM PT
The same thing you mentioned happened in Bosnia to 300,000 Serb refugees, and no one said a word."
Rosie conveniently forgets that before the Serbs left, Serb forces drove the Croats out of their sector and were moving into Croatia itself. When the Croat Army intervened the cowardly Serbs left.
Rosie is no exception. The Serbs have to be the most gullible and natonalistically blind people on earth.
Soon Holy Kosova will be "cleansed" of this garbage. Serbs are leaving in droves.
8413. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 1:07 PM PT
vK,
I'm not so sure it was a smart move on the Russkie's part. Looks as if the Brits are going to let them rot and give them their "zone".
I am more inclined to agree with the sentiment I saw stenciled to a German APC in a photo in today's paper.
"Crazy Ivan" referring doubly I would guess to the maneuver in "Red October" and the Russian Rush to the Airport.
Kudos to the Germans who seem to be recovering their national self-confidence.
I have a sneaky feeling that the Government's pacifist protestations are not given more than lip service by the populace. Look for a more activist German foreign policy in Europe. A definite plus for the West and a big minus for the Rooskies.
8414. JJBiener - June 14, 1999 - 1:09 PM PT
Wombat - I don't see that there is a right side to this. There are many sides and none of them are innocent of wrong doing. Have the Serbs acted badly? Absolutely. So have the Kosovars, the Albanians, the KLA, NATO, the Russians and everyone else who has been involved. We intervene on behalf of the Kosovars because they are the underdogs. They are the ones currently being mistreated by the Serbs. If the balance of power were different we could just as likely be protecting the Serbs from Kosovars. They would do (and have done) the same atrocities the Serbs have committed to reach their goals. In this argument I find Jex's and Rosie's positions to be indistinguishable.
8415. ycmeehan - June 14, 1999 - 1:11 PM PT
Yes, and there will be eventually a new government that will have to turn over to the UN those who were indicted, that is, if they want to rebuilt the country.
8416. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 1:11 PM PT
Message #8407 Easy Pelle. Easy now.
You gotta love Rosie's incessant babbling about Balkan Civil War. What civil war?
The Serbs killed old men en masse and stole everything in sight from unarmed civilians.
This was no war "civil" or otherwise.
Now Kosova will be 99% Albanian. Nary a Slerb in sight. So where's the civil war? Serbia would be attacking an effectively independent state. But they've not got the guts to do so.
8417. AzureNW - June 14, 1999 - 1:16 PM PT
colossus -
What are you planning to rant about now that the war in Yugoslavia is ending? What do you know about Latin America? With NATO having established a precedent for the use of military force in ending human rights abuses and Bush Jr. running for president, I was thinking this would be a good time to review the U.S. role in making life hell for Latin American peasants.
8418. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 1:17 PM PT
JJB:
"We intervene on behalf of the Kosovars because they are the underdogs. They are the ones currently being mistreated by the Serbs. I find Jex's and Rosie's positions to be indistinguishable."
Funny how you just distinguished our positions JJB. The Serbs kill old men and throw over 1 million people from their homes and you find no difference between Serbia and NATO, Rosie and me?
You are either incredibly ignorant or incredibly disingenuous. The Albanians have been shit on by the Serb minority for years only recently rising up to protect themselves. NATO is as committed to protecting Serbs, though they hardly deserve it, as they are Albanians.
You'll not be finding any Serb mass graves anywhere.
What tripe your message it was (Yoda)
8419. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 1:21 PM PT
Azure -
Write your congressman. Or better still, write Irv and ask that he start a thread.
BTW we've been messing in Latin America and conquering conquistadors since before the Republic was founded.
Big news you've got there.
8420. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 1:24 PM PT
"NATO nations are not claiming a manifest destiny to colonize the world. But they will police their back yard with a new boldness. This many "progressives" will be disconcerted to lear, reflects a robust patriotism and cultural confidence that is not bashful about claiming moral superiority in the heirarchy of nations"
Sounds like one of my rants?
That was GEORGE WILL!
8421. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 1:31 PM PT
Azure:
We could always go back to "nuking" the Iraqis.
8422. AzureNW - June 14, 1999 - 1:33 PM PT
colossus -
The U.S. hasn't always supported atrocities against native populations to keep them from electing socialists. That's relatively new.
8423. AzureNW - June 14, 1999 - 1:34 PM PT
Wombat -
I'm looking forward to information from the World Health Organization to revive that discussion.
8424. AzureNW - June 14, 1999 - 1:37 PM PT
It doesn't sound like much if any DU was used on the Serbs, certainly nothing like a mini-nuke bunker buster designed to incinerate deeply buried chemical and biological weapons.
8425. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 1:39 PM PT
In Latin America, the US has almost always supported atrocities against natives to prevent them from electing "socialists." Fortunately, that seems to be in the past, now that Latin America is more or less democratized.
8426. bottomfdr - June 14, 1999 - 1:39 PM PT
Colossus: It sounds like Will is trying to backtrack. I have a feeling a lot of Clinton/NATO denouncers are trying to cover their tracts. But I know that you won"t let 'em.
8427. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 1:43 PM PT
Azure:
Every time an A-10 attacked Serbian armored vehicles, DU was used. You can bet "bunker busters" were also used. The Yugoslavs have a much more comprehensive system of underground storage facilities than Iraq.
8428. bottomfdr - June 14, 1999 - 1:45 PM PT
I meant ''tracks." But it works either way.
8429. Ronski - June 14, 1999 - 1:47 PM PT
Wombat,
How much of what you speak in Latin America was policy directed from the White House and how much from rogue CIA agents, roughly speaking, if it can be quantified?
8430. AzureNW - June 14, 1999 - 1:53 PM PT
Wombat -
So you think that even though the Apache helicopters were never used against the Serbs, essentially the same kinds and quatities of weapons carried by Apache helicopters were used?
8431. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 2:03 PM PT
Ronski:
Guatemala, Dominican Republic and Chile fer sure. To expand and clarify, the US has often backed the a country's government's bloody repression of peasant and/or left wing political opponents. Latin American countries where this happened were: Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Haiti, Colombia, Guatemala, Bolivia, Cuba (in the good ol' days). I have probably left out a few.
8432. HardyHarHar - June 14, 1999 - 2:06 PM PT
"8270. FreeToChoose - June 11, 1999 - 3:48 PM PT
HardyHarHar
"As a tax-paying American, I'm satisfied with our outcome
and its cost."
What is the outcome? (Hint, it isn't over) What is the cost? (Hint, it isn't over)"
Hey, I made that statement on June 11, and at that time part of the outcome was the humiliation of Slobberon Misuckmydick and the Russians (and China, too, since we bombed the shit our of their embassy and didn't stop the bombing campaign after they told us to.)
Anther oucome which I am satisfied with is NATO's casualty list.
Others include:
1. All that we learned throughout this campaign (who knows, NATO may get the job done quicker next time, and use up_to_date maps while their at it.)
2. The "front line" has been move one whopping step closer to Russia (from their POV)
3. NATO looks fucking good.
4. We killed a whole bunch of gang-rapists.
Shit, I'm not a list-maker by habit so I'll cut it now. The point is, I concede that I may not be satisfied with any,or,all future oucomes but I am happy with where we are now (its up to NATO and UN to keep themselves out of their own way and not totally fuck it up from here on out.)
As for the cost?
I'm happy to have spent the $10 or so billion we've gone through by now. Same caveat for any,or,all future costs...
8433. HardyHarHar - June 14, 1999 - 2:16 PM PT
"8365. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 11:27 AM PT
KLA terrorists have ambushed a convoy of Serbian refugees attempting to get away from the mad bombers and their allies, reports ABC news.
Many dead including a priest.
Another reason why the Russians are needed to protect civilians."
Ah, yes, of course.
Everyone knows how good the Russians are at protecting citizens....
Fuck, I'd rather be in a Federal Pen in the US than a politican or rich fat bastard in Russia...better food, for one thing.
8434. RosettaStone - June 14, 1999 - 2:40 PM PT
When was the last time that the Russians burnt down a farmhouse with 83 people in it?
8435. stangorsian - June 14, 1999 - 3:22 PM PT
Boy, Beograd Rose sure is a sore loser.
8436. Ronski - June 14, 1999 - 3:44 PM PT
Wombat,
With regard to Chile, you are speaking of the Pinochet years of course, but are you also suggesting that Allende would not have been overthrown by his own people? With inflation at god-knows-what hundred percent and the economy in ruins?
Please do not think I am siding with various escapades in Latin America, or frankly, elsewhere. I think we should mind our own business. I wonder, though, how much is done in these areas that the president (any president) ever has an inkling about.
8437. colossus - June 14, 1999 - 4:46 PM PT
"Albanians are showing relief, happiness and some glee. In Prizren Sunday, the main square was full of Albanians of all ages who had never left. Many of the younger men had hidden in their apartments for nearly three months, sending women and old men out to try to buy bread.
They sang and cheered and gave flowers to the nonplussed young German
soldiers of NATO's force.
One young German, riding behind a machine gun on his jeep, had flowers strewn at his feet and tears pouring from his eyes. "
"When was the last time that the Russians burnt down a farmhouse with 83 people in it?"
I give up Rose. Chechnya?
When was the last time German soldiers were welcomed by adoring crowds throwing flowers at their feet?
1938?
1941 - Lithuania??
When the Germans arrived in Prizren about midnight, many Albanians greeted them in their pajamas and bathrobes, said Haki Bojniku, 20, an economics student. "You cannot write down the way I feel now," he said, beginning himself to cry. "I feel free now, like a person."
Germans liberate from Serbs. People feel like people again.
Eh Rosie????
8438. goodfly - June 14, 1999 - 7:38 PM PT
What kind of prick would say " I think we should mind our own business" In the face of the atrocities committted by the Serbs? A libertarian prick, a Republican Clinton hater? Who would delight in a victory by Slobo just to rub it in the face of Clinton. Now that to me is treasonous.
8439. EricCartman1 - June 14, 1999 - 8:17 PM PT
Message #8420:
Per usual, Colossus, you are too clever by half in attempting to use an opponent's words to your own ends. The paragraph of Will's you recycle is the end of his column in which he excoriates Clinton and his pseudo-Wilsonian advisors for pretending to attempt to do something out of pure principle, and ultimately hewing to realpolitik perhaps more than they had even intended. All while exceeding the stated bounds of NATO's raison d'être.
In that paragraph, Will is speaking of the federalization of the European nations, and of America goading them into their (real) need to unite, and actually do something when faced with a crisis. But that's about it. Will is none too impressed with Clinton or what he's done. That's to be expected from George Will, a man whom I have always considered a consummate waste of decent prose.
Read the whole column here.
Wombat Message #8431:
Mexico, Honduras, Panama, Brazil.
8440. bottomfdr - June 14, 1999 - 10:23 PM PT
In his Washington Post op-ed piece, George Will makes a rather curious assertion. He writes about Europe's "shared values" and that the Europeans believe the defense of these values is "important enough to kill for, but not important enough to be killed for."
If one reads between the lines, one gets the impression that Will is saying that it was unfair for NATO not to let a bunch of its people be killed. NATO killed Serbs and therefore NATO should have let the Serbs kill some of them. That seems to be a constant underlying theme of the anti-Clinton, ant-NATO people. It's like they are somehow disappointed. It's strange and scary.
8441. xkennedy - June 15, 1999 - 12:33 AM PT
I am a retired US Military Officer and I don't like to give "White Owl Willie" credit for much, but I am impressed by the results to date in Kosovo, and the performance of Americans there who didn't dodge the draft. Killing Serbs was such the right thing to do that I am almost sorry we aren't still doing it. I don't buy the argument that it was all due to Milosevic. The average Serb has seemed all to willing to engage in atrocities over the last ten years. I want to see Milosevic and many other tried for crimes against humanity and then dance at the end of a rope. It will take a lot to change my opinion that serbs are basically fecal matter. Exterminate them!
8442. ycmeehan - June 15, 1999 - 1:55 AM PT
goodfly, Message #8438
The neo-fascist element who masquerades as conservative Republicans in the Congress. You must know who they are.
8443. ycmeehan - June 15, 1999 - 2:03 AM PT
xkennedy
We should also congratulate those who did not have to dodge the draft and did their jobs well too.
8444. bottomfdr - June 15, 1999 - 3:21 AM PT
It's 0400 here on the West Coast and I should be sleeping, but realization that 200 Russian soldiers have been able to stiff the whole North Atlantic by God Treaty Organization has made it impossible to sleep. I've supported this president of ours and the NATO leaders from the beginning, but if they don't get off their dead asses and do something (like in the next few hours), to reverse that situation, then they might just be kissing the whole operation goodbye.
Clinton, for Christ's sake, has got to stop kissing up to these lying, treacherous Russkies. Stop being the pussyfooting, gutless wonder that he is and get some one in there who will kick those pesky Ivans out of there. If neither the Brits nor the French have the stomach for it, then send an armored battalion of Marines up there and blast those bastrds out of the way.
I wonder if John McCain would take the job? Somebody with some backbone for a change.
8445. joezan - June 15, 1999 - 3:48 AM PT
thought for the day -
the army that is willing to make war
but unwilling to sacrifice a single soldier
is wise to have one bomb and one tank
for every enemy soldier
-----Lao Tzan
8446. bottomfdr - June 15, 1999 - 5:37 AM PT
All right, all right. It's time for the little charade to end. The original idea for the Russian coup at the airport of Pristina, came from the White House. It was the brainstorm of one William S. Clinton, President of the United States. It is so obvious it's funny.
Remember: You read it here first.
8447. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 5:43 AM PT
The Russians are right now sending more troops and supplies to their Pristina airport firebase in Kosovo.
Although few in number, each Russian soldier is worth 6 NATO mercenaries.
8448. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 5:58 AM PT
xkennedy --- Message #8441
"It will take a lot to change my opinion that serbs are basically fecal matter. Exterminate them!"
So you are an advocate of genocide then?
8449. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 5:58 AM PT
xkennedy --- Message #8441
"It will take a lot to change my opinion that serbs are basically fecal matter. Exterminate them!"
So you are an advocate of genocide then?
8450. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 6:15 AM PT
The British, the butchers of Belfast, Dundrum, and the bastard-named Londonderry, are now in Pristina central having nightmares about city warfare fighting both the Serbs and the KLA.
It couldn't happen to better people.
8451. MsIvoryTower - June 15, 1999 - 6:46 AM PT
This conversation has deteriorated even further. I hardly thought it possible.
Jexster and Stone have always been lacking a moral dimension to their posts, but now they are joined by one xxkennedy.
8452. JJBiener - June 15, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
MsIvory - It is scary when you hear militaristic crap coming from both sides of the political spectrum. It used to be that you could count on the left to be a voice for peace and military restraint. Now we have voices on the left calling for death and destruction and using racial epithets to justify their positions. Is the New Left going to be indistinguishable from Neo-Fascism?
Please tell me that there are still reasonable people on the left who have not been drawn into this political and moral quagmire.
8453. ycmeehan - June 15, 1999 - 7:33 AM PT
Rosetta,
The basis of a coup in Serbia has now been established. The pronouncement of the head of the Serbian Orthodox Chrurch just called for the resignation of your friend Slobo for the good of Serbia and its people and calling for new leadership. It may happen shortly.
8454. MsIvoryTower - June 15, 1999 - 7:36 AM PT
JJB
I expect there are reasonable people on both sides of the isle, as many posting here exemplify. However, the postings of Stone represent the lunatic ravings of the extreme right, and are now joined by one xxkennedy.
Jexster is a political creature of the left. But not a recognizable left, since most ARE extreme pacifists.
What is interesting about both Stone and Jexster is that each has a position that is not easily classifiable as either liberal or conservative, but is clearly excessive.
8455. JJBiener - June 15, 1999 - 7:39 AM PT
YC - After surviving weeks of NATO bombardment, do you think Slobo will step down just because the church asks him to? Do you think the people will rise up against this brutal dictator and risk their lives fighting Slobo's army on the word of the church? I didn't think the Serbian Chruch had the much power in Serbia. Do you see this as a serious power shift, or is this just the first crack in the armor?
8456. JJBiener - June 15, 1999 - 7:49 AM PT
MsIvory - I think this demonstrates that the political spectrum is a circle rather than a line. If you go too far to the left or the right you end up with fascism. Even though you and I disagree on many issues, I think we are closer to each other than we are to the extremes on the left and the right respectively. I think we need to use this to our advantage. We need to be less concerned about left and right and be more concerned about extremism vs moderation.
8457. ycmeehan - June 15, 1999 - 8:00 AM PT
JJBiener,
The Serbian right who opposes the peace plan have left the government a few days ago. They were the main support of Slobo's policies. As a result, the far-right in Serbia has splintered. The moderate and left are of one mind: their support of the peace plan was a repudiation of Slobo. He cannot resign because this undermines his biological survival. Therefore, one of two things is going to happen rather quickly. He is going to leave the country and seek asylum in either Crete or Belo Russia. The significance of the religious abandonment of Slobo is that it serves the purpose of the group of army leaders and politicians. They are already planning a coup. My bet is that Slobo will leave the country for the simple reason that the new government is obligated to turn him over to the war-crime tribunal or elements of the coup group will implement the Romanian solution. IMO, the statement of the church is a signal for the opposition to move and move quicly.
8458. MsIvoryTower - June 15, 1999 - 8:07 AM PT
JJB
I always get nervous when someone wants to do 'pats on the back', so to speak. My guess is that we can each of us get extreme depending on the degree to which an issue touches our lives directly.
8459. JJBiener - June 15, 1999 - 8:11 AM PT
YC - The way I see, the only group that matters at this point is the army. If they stick with Slobo, he will survive. If they choose to overthrow him, he will be out. The political intrigue is interesting, but ultimately it the ones with the guns who decide. At least for the forseeable future.
8460. FreetoChoose - June 15, 1999 - 8:18 AM PT
RosettaStone
“Although few in number, each Russian soldier is worth 6 NATO mercenaries.”
There are no NATO mercenaries. Don't be such an idiot.
8461. ycmeehan - June 15, 1999 - 8:24 AM PT
JJB,
You have got a point but there are dissentions within any group.
8462. JJBiener - June 15, 1999 - 8:38 AM PT
FTC - "Don't be such an idiot"
But that is one of his more redeeming qualities (g).
8463. JJBiener - June 15, 1999 - 8:42 AM PT
YC - True. I think it is pretty much a crap shoot at this point as to who will carry the day. If the dissenters in the army can gain control, Slobo is history. What would be interesting to see is whether they would exile him to Belorus or turn him over to the War Crimes Tribunal.
8464. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 9:07 AM PT
Rosie's Saviors from Moscow are now trapped at the Pristina Airport and running low on supplies. The KLA has taken up position around the airport, and the Russians fear an attack.
East European countries will not allow the Russians overflight. The Russian government cannot afford to pay for the 2000-5000 troops it wants to have in Kosova unless the West pays for them.
Das Vidanya Igor
8465. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
Message #8454
IT
Grab your drool rope its growing longer.
I am an unabashed American patriot. I am not nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party.
I have no apologies either for decisive US/NATO action to protect the 1.8 million people in a sensitive part of Europe from being raped, thrown down wells, thrown out of their homes by a murderous regime whose only support comes from nationalistic Russians and duplicitous Chinese communists. I have no apology for the decisive and patriot action taken by democratic Europe nor to I quail from George Will's description of our Western nations as "morally superior"
As the mass graves are uncovered, your leftist drool rope will lengthen for I believe that the evidence is clear, Serbs are Milosevic's Willing Executioners [TNR]
8466. MsIvoryTower - June 15, 1999 - 9:19 AM PT
Jexster
Stuff it.
8467. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 9:25 AM PT
I take little comfort in the split of the Slobo coalition. Two points:
- many of the people at the top levels of the Yugoslav government are also indicted war criminals who have no where to go
- even the "pro-democracy" movement is vehement in their hatred of Albanians.
From the New Republic:
"Perhaps the most telling detail of the Belgrade protests was the nature of the insults these Serbian pro-democracy marchers would hurl at Milosevic. "Slobo is a Turk!" they would cry, a term that refers to Serbia's hated historical enemy, the Ottomans--bu t is also a common, modern-day slur usually aimed at Bosnian Muslims. "Slobo is an Ustasha!" they yelled, referring to the Croat fascists who allied themselves with the Nazis in World War II and killed hundreds of thousands of Serbs. And, when the busload s of heavily equipped riot police dispatched by Milosevic arrived on the scene, the protesters' response was to suggest that the cops were focusing on the wrong target. "Go to Kosovo! Go to Kosovo!" they would scream."
This was a pre-war "pro-democracy" demonstration.
8468. xkennedy - June 15, 1999 - 9:26 AM PT
Serbians as fecal matter. I was for laying some serious hurt on the Serbians about 10 years ago when they started playing their national sport in Croatia. Was any voice heard from any segment of the Serbian population against the war crimes? Was there not enthusiastic participation across the Serbian population? Genocide? I consider it more like taking out the garbage. Have you ever thought about fleas, ticks, cockroaches, or rats, and considered that you were unfairly discriminating against them? You have to demonstrate human qualities to be considered a human. Serbs are clearly lacking.
I urge the Republicans not to make Kosovo a partisan issue just to embarrass a Democratic president. That would aping the fruitcakes demos of the 70's who withdrew any support to the Republic of Viet Nam just to embarrass Republican administrations. As a Viet Nam vet, that is the primary reason I despise most demos. That and the fact that they have become the party of th 4H club (homos, hutus, hebrews, and hispanics). Not that there is anything wrong with that, it just isn't a group which with I identify.
8469. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 9:27 AM PT
iT -
Engage brain before moving fingers. Try learning something for once instead of offering more liberal pap!
Drool on, iT! :^)
8470. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 9:32 AM PT
From the Fray you cannot appreciate the fulsome hate, in its true length and its breadth, that all Serbs have for Albanians.
We only have the sorrowful, pathetic Stone among us. But thanks to Rosie, I have experienced the LA Times website. Serbs not only from the LA Basin but Serbs and sympathizers from Greece and the Balkans and even Russia.
Serbs see Albanians as, for lack of a better term, their n*ggers and it doesn't matter whether they are rightist, leftist, communist, or Orthodox.
I suggest the bleeding hearts around here tune in to the stream of reports now coming from Kosova.
8471. MsIvoryTower - June 15, 1999 - 9:32 AM PT
Jexster
Try closing mouth before sticking foot in it.
A study in irony, my friend.
I don't dispute the underlying position you've taken, in fact, I agree with much of it, only your lack of moral consideration for the method you use in presenting it, in arguing it, and in attacking your detractors.
In addition, you've shown a total lack of reasoned balance wrt the character of the peoples involved. Black/white stereotypes are boring, and so very trite.
Both you and Stone fall into the same sort of traps.
8472. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 9:50 AM PT
iT dear,
I feel it is my duty, the heavy mantle of abusing you has fallen to me with the departure of ThomasD from the Fray, especially so since the Ace of Space is too terrified to expose his ignorance to ridicule on this Thread.
Nonetheless, I am angered at the sedition of the Republican party on this issue and the incredible audacity and hate of most of the Serb people. Both need to be punished.
What the region needs, it appears to lack. What the Balkans need are Desmond Tutu's and Nelson Mandela's. I venture that the sufferings and consequent desire for revenge of the Black South African dwarfs that of the Albanians. Too bad there doesn't seem to be the spirit of forgiveness found in South Africa.
8473. MsIvoryTower - June 15, 1999 - 9:53 AM PT
"I feel it is my duty, the heavy mantle of abusing you has fallen to me with the departure of ThomasD from the Fray, especially so since the Ace of Space is too terrified to expose his ignorance to ridicule on this Thread."
Hahahaha, ThomasD and I usually got along very well thankyou.
You don't need to abuse me, Jex, you need to tone it down. The power of your comments get lost because of all the baggage you include in them.
Just my opinion, don'tchaknow.
8474. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 10:29 AM PT
"Hahahaha, ThomasD and I usually got along very well
thankyou."
So you say of the dear departed one who coined the inimitable phrase "IT's liberal drool rope"
ThomasD, requiem in pacet.
8475. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 10:34 AM PT
THIS JUST IN...
Gun battles are taking place right now between the Brits and KLA in Pristina.
The limeys are having a tougher problem with home-grown, city terrorists than the Germans did on Sunday when they attacked and murdered Serb civilians in little yellow Yugos in Prizren.
8476. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 10:42 AM PT
Over a month ago, I predicted the death RIP of the Slerb Slaughter and the Chinese Chow Fun Scandal Threads before the Vidov Dan Holiday 6.28.99.
Both predictions have now come true.
Rose,
What neato gift are you getting me for Vidov Dan - a severed Albanian finger perhaps?
8477. vonKreedon - June 15, 1999 - 10:47 AM PT
MsIT - Please don't bother interacting with Jester; he is as virulent a racist as StonedRose and should be similarly ignored.
In Message #8456 JJBiener said, "MsIvory - I think this demonstrates that the political spectrum is a circle rather than a line. If you go too far to the left or the right you end up with fascism."
I tend to think of the political spectrum as a sphere, but it's definitely not a straight line. As you point out if one goes far enough in any direction you arise at the opposite of where you started, Jester & Stoned being excellent examples of people who have gone so far as to be indistinguishable in behavior.
8478. vonKreedon - June 15, 1999 - 10:50 AM PT
I still think that NATO should assign the Pristina airport as the Russian zone of control. It gives the Russians a position of visibility and independence in KFOR, a position that they can afford to maintain. It also keeps the Russians out of contact with the KLA, the Serb forces, and the returning Kosovars. This could work for everyone.
8479. AuNaturel - June 15, 1999 - 11:11 AM PT
I understand the Russians are so short of manpower they have offered a thousand dollars a month for any experienced ex-military personel with medical or armored vehilcle skills who are willing to be a peacekeeper in Kosova.
8480. bottomfdr - June 15, 1999 - 11:40 AM PT
VonK: of course the Russians will have control of the airport. That was the plan hatched in the White House over a week ago. Don't you get it?
8481. vonKreedon - June 15, 1999 - 11:49 AM PT
Bottm - Well, that assigns a level of foresight/competence to the WH that I don't think is deserved, though they are looking better then they did a couple of weeks ago.
8482. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
xkennedy --- Message #8468
"You have
to demonstrate human qualities to be considered a human.
Serbs are clearly lacking."
So are you.
8483. benEAR - June 15, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
x, you are truly despicable. Are you really David Duke?
8484. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 11:55 AM PT
colossus's posts sometimes remind me of
"In defeat unbeatable, in victory unbearable."
Full marks for sourcing.
8485. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 11:57 AM PT
pellenilsson -
It makes some of my comments about Serbs that so offended you early in the war seem pretty mild by comparison, doesn't it?
8486. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
I have to admit I was kind of shocked to learn that NATO was planning to carpet-bomb Belgrade just as the Serbs surrendered, after all the damage NATO had already done. I thought the damage was already into the range of overkill when Jesse Jackson's crew got the three servicemen freed. Carpet-bombing Belgrade would have directly targeted civilians. But newspaper reports I read the day after the key agreement was reached claimed the Serbs were told NATO would begin carpet-bombing the next day if the peace proposal had been rejected.
8487. bottomfdr - June 15, 1999 - 12:13 PM PT
Let me explain.
The US needs the moderate Boris Yeltsin to remain in power in Woscow. He is our best friend there.
But Yeltsin is beset by a bunch of old-line Communists and disgruntled, trouble making generals who are just waiting to drag Boris down. We certainly do not want that.
But Yeltsin has been humiliated by NATO's success and his lack of influence in the whole process.
His grip on power is very weak.
So he gets on the horn to the White House and it goes like this:
"Mister President, I'm in deep shit here. If I'm going to hang on and keep the wolves away, I need some kind of a little victory out of this to show to the Russian people. Is there anything you can do?"
Clinton says, " Well let me think about it for a minute Boris.. Tell you what, why don't you pull a couple hundred of your boys out of Bosnia and let them just drive on down to Pristina. Go ahead, take the airport.
We can work it out later. So what do you think Boris?
Yeltsin says, "works for me."
Problem solved!
8488. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 12:17 PM PT
Azure
Yes. But as you may have guessed I'm easily upset about blanket condemnations of ethnical groups be it Serbs, Negroes, or Native Americans. That has to do, I think, with growing up just after WWII.
8489. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 12:25 PM PT
Well, thanks for the oblique bit of a nod that I turned out not to be the raving lunatic from the fringe of my society you thought I was on this issue, pelle. It's pretty tough to get any kind of an apology here, so I decided just to ask for mine bluntly.
8490. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 12:28 PM PT
Re: Message #8487
It works for all of us. The people in that part of the world are going to need a policeman on every steet corner for a very long time. Who better to police that mess than unemployed Russians? I wouldn't want American troops saddled with that job.
8491. bottomfdr - June 15, 1999 - 12:55 PM PT
Azure: Maybe having a bunch of unemployed Russians pulling cop-on-the-corner duty is not a bad trade-off. NATO has met or is meeting its primary goals in Kosovo. Dats good, but keeping Yeltsin in power in Moscow, regardless of what we may think about him, has got to be another primary goal of the West. Consider the alternative. Maybe this publicity stunt at the airport has saved Yeltsin's ass. If so, I give the credit to Clinton. I think he's smarter than the average bear, a whole lot smarter. And devious.
8492. HardyHarHar - June 15, 1999 - 1:12 PM PT
Bah.
Fuck Russia, it would be in our long term interest to buy all of Russia's military hardware that we feel is threatening to us, and enslave the poor slobbering booger-eaters as our dog walkers...anything would be better than what they've got now.
We could call it a humanitarian mission.....
8493. cmboyce - June 15, 1999 - 1:18 PM PT
Message #8478: "I still think that NATO should assign the Pristina airport as the Russian
zone of control. It gives the Russians a position of visibility and
independence in KFOR, a position that they can afford to maintain."
What if they should decide to _close_ the airport?
8494. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 1:21 PM PT
cmboyce
I don't think the airport is operative in any case because of NATO bombings.
I left a message for you in Home and Garden.
8495. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 1:48 PM PT
Other than some unexploded cluster bombs on the runways, the Pristina airport is in OKay shape. NATO smart bombs tried to hit the mountain tunnel entrances where the MIGs were hidden. The 12 jets weren't destroyed and have now returned to Serbia
The mad bombers didn't want to destroy the airport because they expected to be using it to get supplies into the capital.
Of course, the British say they don't need the airport, now.
LOL
8496. vonKreedon - June 15, 1999 - 1:48 PM PT
CM - Well we should be proactive on that possibility and begin building some alternative infrastructure. But the distances aren't so great that we couldn't use facilities in Macedonia or Greece and then ship overland if absolutely necessary. In the mean time it does give the Russians and *appearance* of holding a major key to KFOR, an appearance that I believe to be good to maintain.
8497. Wombat - June 15, 1999 - 1:50 PM PT
Azure:
Carpet bombing Belgrade? Where did this come from? Didya make it up, or did you misread a source document?
A-10s (Wart Hogs) fire AP rounds from their rotary cannon. AP rounds have a DU core.
8498. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 1:56 PM PT
Hi,Wombat.
The plan to carpet-bomb Belgrade the day after the last round of negotiations failed was reported in two stories in my local newspaper, one story from the NY Times and one from (I think) the Boston Globe. One story quoted Milosovic's wife as saying they all knew the war was over as soon as the Russian envoy told them NATO would begin carpet bombing Belgrade the next day if they did not agree to withdraw from Kosovo.
8499. HardyHarHar - June 15, 1999 - 2:20 PM PT
"8495. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 1:48 PM PT
Other than some unexploded cluster bombs on the runways, the Pristina airport is in OKay shape. NATO smart bombs tried to hit the mountain tunnel entrances where the MIGs were hidden. The 12 jets weren't destroyed and have now returned to Serbia
The mad bombers didn't want to destroy the airport because they expected to be using it to get supplies into the capital.
Of course, the British say they don't need the airport, now.
LOL"
As if.
As if NATO couldn't expel the Russians from Kosovo (what are there now, almost 400 of them?) within 30 minutes via a swift resumption of the "Bombing campaign."
Russia exits becuase the West allows, nay, makes it possible, for it to exist.
8500. Wombat - June 15, 1999 - 2:23 PM PT
Azure:
I just reviewed the last two weeks of the NYT and found no reference to that. Strikes me that the "plan" as you described is either fiction on the part of the Foreign Minister to convince the Yugoslavs, or fiction from Milosevic's wife to justify the Serbian acceptance of NATO terms. An actual plan to carpet bomb a Serbian city would play right into Milosevic's hands.
8501. jroth2 - June 15, 1999 - 2:30 PM PT
The whole point of the revolution in PGMs is to not have to 'carpet bomb'. It is, besdies being morally dubious, an inefficient means of achieving a military end. Only the B-52 and B-1 have the capacity to 'carpet bomb', and the former is way too vulnerable to even primitive air defense when attempting such a strike.
I agree with Wombat, this is a self-serving rumor designed to ease the sting of defeat.
8502. vonKreedon - June 15, 1999 - 2:31 PM PT
Azure/Wombat - I went to the official Serb news site and found no such claims. There are many outlandish claims, but none that the Serbs capitulated to save Belgrade from "carpet bombing".
8503. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 2:31 PM PT
HHH: As Slobo has learned by now, people don't bomb your citizens if you have nuclear weapons.
Other countries have learned that lesson.
8504. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 2:32 PM PT
jroth2
Where were you when we needed you in the Diamond Thread?
8505. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 2:42 PM PT
Re: Message #8500
I thought about posting parts of the newspaper report since it was so dramatic, but it wasn't a good day to Fray. The story appeared less than two weeks ago, so the newspaper is probably still in the recycling pile. I was surprised nothing more was said about it in following news of the war or in the Fray.
8506. AzureNW - June 15, 1999 - 2:47 PM PT
If I waste a big part of my evening digging through that pile of newspaper to find the article, I know it will still be dismissed as unreliable. But I did read two articles on the subject, in fact I read one of them aloud, the one from the NYTimes.
8507. jroth2 - June 15, 1999 - 2:50 PM PT
Pelle,
In all honesty I tired of posting, period. It seems diffocult not to become involved in ad hominem battles. Not that the Diamond site was like that- simply that I wore out on the whole process.
I'd be up for a Thread that treat War and Peace as the multi-faceted human activities they are- despite the awful aspects. I'd prefer a Thread dealing with topics sufficiently removed from the current news that we don't degenerate into ethnic attacks. What happened to the WWI thread?
8508. pellenilsson - June 15, 1999 - 2:58 PM PT
jroth2
Fair enough. I too look forward to the WW1 thread. I think the Frayster formerly known as jexster can make interesting contributions if he abstains from his shrilliness, which he can if he wants to.
8509. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 3:37 PM PT
pell: Jexster can't control himself if he starts to lose an arguement which is why he's been so wild here.
8510. xkennedy - June 15, 1999 - 5:31 PM PT
I would prefer it if attacks were directed at my ideas rather than at me. My comments may be insensitive because I despise political correctness, and having experienced Viet Nam, I am a believer that if you are going to make war, then MAKE WAR!!! After retiring from the Air Force, I received probably my last degree, in Computer Science, and have worked in the Military Aeropace industry for the last 18 years, including 11 years on B-1B avionics. Most of the comments posted on "carpet bombing" thus far have been ludicrous. I agree with those that deem it face-saving disinformation. I seriously want slobo and his henchmen brought to justice. New reports that NATO troops a few hundred yards away are doing nothing to prevent departing Serbs from carrying out additional atrocities is very disturbing to me. If the Kosovo engagement just fades away with a whimper, then the Serbs who forget nothing, and apparently are incapable of learning anything, will just have another perceived hurt with which to base future atrocities. The Serb population must be shown in agonizing proof and detail that their actions over the past ten years are truly despicable. I don't give a damn about how many Serbs died at the battle of Kosovo 600 years ago, nor how many died in WW2, except that it seems today that the number was not nearly enough. Please keep in mind that the f****ing Serbs were the fuse for WW1. How many chances do they get?
8511. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 6:28 PM PT
Message #8509
Shut up Rose you filthy ignorant Slobo suckin bitch!
I was NEVER proven wrong on this Thead! In fact I correctly predicted its demise (and that of the Chop Suey Thread) on or before the Holy Day - Vidov Dan.
So what are you gonna get me for the Big "holy" Slerb holiday Rose?
My preference of course, is tongue or eye of 80 year old Albanian women but whatever you'd have done for a Turk in the olden Glory Days of Serbia will do.
8512. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 6:30 PM PT
Pelle -
NATO left at least 1 runway operational so that The Jroth Memorial Marine Airmobile Unit could land.
8513. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 6:33 PM PT
Message #8507
Jroth,
Sorry to disappoint (and I tried to save you from ad hominem attack by the evil Poseur 109109) but I happen to think that the Central Powers got the raw end of the stick in the War to End All Wars.
I still have some unfinished business, some unresolved issues.
(damned November criminals) :)
8514. alistairconnor - June 15, 1999 - 7:05 PM PT
"I don't give a damn about how many Serbs died at the battle of Kosovo 600 years ago, nor how many died in WW2, except that it seems today that the number was not nearly enough."
Does this require any comment? How about the remark that Tito's (ethnically integrated) partisans were the most effective anti-Nazi insurgents of wwII, bar none.
8515. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 7:35 PM PT
"I don't give a damn about how many Serbs died at the
battle of Kosovo 600 years ago, nor how many died in
WW2, except that it seems today that the number was not
nearly enough"
Did I say that?
If I didn't I wish I did!
BTW many (most?) Yugo WW2 deaths were the result of cynical provocations of German reprisals precipitated by the wily Tito against his Chetnik enemies.
8516. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 7:38 PM PT
No it was xkennedy!
Where have YOU been?
Hey Rose, let's give a pig serb welcome to this gentleman. Sing him a few bars of those Slerb folk songs about "holy kosova" with the lush green valleys, dead albanians and all that rot.
8517. colossus - June 15, 1999 - 8:00 PM PT
Rose - you have a future!
Tanjug News Agency Reports Ramsey Clark Launches NATO War Crimes Investigation
8518. bottomfdr - June 15, 1999 - 8:46 PM PT
Is this the "Bombing the Serbs" thread, or the "Toot Your Own Horn" thread?
8519. HardyHarHar - June 15, 1999 - 9:13 PM PT
"8503. RosettaStone - June 15, 1999 - 2:31 PM PT
HHH: As Slobo has learned by now, people don't bomb your citizens if you have nuclear weapons.
Other countries have learned that lesson."
Gee, does anyone here know if the Russians' missles are Y2K compliant?
Guess it doesn't matter...if your troops have to borrow water from the "brits," who are supposed to be the equivalent of 1/6 a Russian....
8520. jonesatlaw - June 15, 1999 - 10:09 PM PT
If this is to be worth the effort, Milosovic must given a fair trial. The trial should be public and broadcast in Serbia. If the charges of genocide are proven in open court, he must take his punishment. It is important that we stop the despot retirement programs we've tacitly supported for years.- Leave the country with as much loot as you can carry, retire to some friendly country whose leaders welcome you in exchange for a small portion of your booty, and provide political cover for your sorry ass the rest of your days.
8521. Wombat - June 16, 1999 - 6:52 AM PT
Azure:
Perhaps the reason nobody else got excited over the alleged article is because either nobody else saw it or didn't read it with your capacity for misinterpretation. Since a number of people in the thread closely follow the NYT's coverage of the fighting, I suspect the latter.
If you can substantiate your claim, I will be happy to admit that I was wrong (won't be the first time).
8522. vonKreedon - June 16, 1999 - 7:30 AM PT
Alistair wrote, "How about the remark that Tito's (ethnically integrated) partisans were the most effective anti-Nazi insurgents of wwII, bar none." I have to quibble with this statement. From what I know, the Soviet partisans were quite a bit more effective that Tito's. This is not to denigrate the Yugo Communist partisans or the success that Tito had with effectively working with the multi-ethnic character of Yugoslavia. That this was so is evidence to me that the ethning divisions/hatred are not as ingrained as some would believe. IMO Milosevic and his clique built on the buried divisions and created a myth of Serbian superiority, Serbian repression by other ethnic members of Yugo society, and finally Serbian redemption in seperation.