8302. RosettaStone - June 12, 1999 - 2:37 PM PT
The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!...To protect the civilian population of Kosovo from the mad bombers.
There is a God in heaven.
8303. FreeToChoose - June 12, 1999 - 3:25 PM PT
TrialShark
"Sir, I note that the price exacted upon the Serbians has led them to discontinue their campaign against the Kosovars, sir. Since by your own undoubtedly correct estimate, sir, they were not physically rendered incapable of continuing that campaign, sir, it would appear that they have been deterred. Sir."
Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that the Serbians stopped driving the Kosovars out of Kosovo, when virtually all had been driven out. That's why they stopped.
"Although the Commander-in-Chief said the goal was to "damage" Serbia's ability to wage war"
Whatever does it mean to "damage" the ability to wage war, if there is no indication that they would be unable to wage such a war successfully. I would consider the ability damaged if either the probability that they would engage in such an action dropped well below 100%, or if there were some experts who felt that the Kosovar could mount a credible defense. I haven't heard a single expert suggest such a thing (although perhaps you have and will share it with us). Consequently, I see no reason to assume that this goal was achieved in any meaningful sense. Hell, I gave him a C+. Perhaps I was too generous.
"Finally, sir, I thank you in advance for your thoughtful and generous apology for the baseless suggestion that I might be inventing quotes and placing them in quotation marks, sir."
It wasn't baseless, but I apologize for raising the question that you might be manufacturing quotes. You might note my air of incredulity, as this seemed out of character, but I have yet to understand why you would include them in a post without quotes. A detail whose explanation is way down the list of important issues.
8304. FreeToChoose - June 12, 1999 - 3:28 PM PT
TrialShark
"I hope you have a most excellent weekend and can try to forget the horrible defeat which our forces have suffered at the hands of the mighty Serbian war machine."
Why on earth would you use the term "defeated"? NATO forces prevailed. This does not mean we achieved our stated goals, nor does it mean that the action was justifiable.
8305. RosettaStone - June 12, 1999 - 3:42 PM PT
"We look forward to working with the Russians," Bill Clinton said today about the Russians who have control of Pristina's military airport.
LOL.
Just make just you have their permission if you want to land there.
8306. RosettaStone - June 12, 1999 - 3:43 PM PT
just=sure
8307. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 5:30 PM PT
I'm not so sure that NATO didn't achieve its goals.. Once again the great prognosticators are at it, with virtually nothing to go on except their prejudices and insatiate desire to see NATO fall on its face and thereby Clinton. These people never give up hope of some great destruction of American lives so as to vindicate their all-consuming hatred ot the President. I know that the Republicans in Congress, with a few notable exceptions, were hoping that a bunch of our planes would be shot down and that there would be a sizable loss of Americans lives. Anything to get at the man. The Republicans are like the Russian generals---petulant to the extreme and constantly causing trouble. You talk about a fifth column.
8308. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 5:50 PM PT
I attribute the remark about Russian generals to Daniel Schorr on NPR.
8309. FreeToChoose - June 12, 1999 - 6:00 PM PT
bottomfdr
"I'm not so sure that NATO didn't achieve its goals."
I read on to see how you justified this, but nothing. Is that it? We should take your word for it?
"Once again the great prognosticators are at it, with virtually nothing to go on except their prejudices and insatiate desire to see NATO fall on its face and thereby Clinton."
Who, for example?
"I know that the Republicans in Congress, with a few notable exceptions, were hoping that a bunch of our planes would be shot down and that there would be a sizable loss of Americans lives."
You *know* this?
Please share with us a shred of evidence.
8310. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 7:05 PM PT
This morning's NATO briefing substantiates the claim that the goals were probably met.
I'm working on the others.
8311. aldavis - June 12, 1999 - 7:22 PM PT
bottomfdr
Why not just admit you have access to a higher power and you know it through divination? When you have no knowledge, the best thing to do is to assert in a loud voice.
8312. FreeToChoose - June 12, 1999 - 7:46 PM PT
bottomfdr
Do you mean the goals as articulated by NATO, or by Clinton. It's pretty clear we didn't do so hot on the goals listed by Clinton (see my generous evaluation), but NATO may have been more careful about itemizing their goals.
8313. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 8:50 PM PT
FTC: in post 8275 you intimated that NATO ordered the Serbs, who have lived all their lives in Kovoso, to leave. Could you please tell us when NATO gave that order and precise wording? Or maybe this is just off the top of your head? Spin.Spin.Spin.
8314. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 8:59 PM PT
One of NATO's main goals, and Clinton's too no doubt, was to prevent the ethnic cleansing of the Kosovar Albanians. I think that that goal will be met. The Albanians will return and therefore Slobo's pogrom will have failed. That's one.
8315. EricCartman1 - June 12, 1999 - 9:29 PM PT
bottomfdr Message #8307:
What an unbelievably silly post. Are you sure you're not one of Jexster's other personalities?
"I know that the Republicans in Congress, with a few notable exceptions, were hoping that a bunch of our planes would be shot down and that there would be a sizable loss of Americans' lives."
Christ, and people call ME a conspiracy theorist! Provide the name of ONE person, anywhere in America, Congressman or not, who really hoped such a thing, and I'll help you kick their ass. Seriously. This is the epitome of Jexster's obnoxious notion that anyone who doesn't support Clinton must be against our boys. Are you fucking serious? Polemic is not one of your gifts, bottomfdr.
"This morning's NATO briefing substantiates the claim that the goals were probably met. I'm working on the others."
Well, I don't know about y'all, but ***I'm*** certainly convinced. Like NATO's going to say that they haven't done everything to 110% efficiency. Please. By all means, keep "working on the others". This oughta be good.
And by the way, it's KOSOVO, not KOVOSO.
8316. CalGal - June 12, 1999 - 9:33 PM PT
But Cart--you *are* a conspiracy theorist.
And a Chomsky fanatic.
Who are you trying to kid?
8317. EricCartman1 - June 12, 1999 - 9:52 PM PT
Cal:
Hahaha! Yes, and even I couldn't have conjured up such a ridiculous piece as Message #8307. Even though I despise Republicans almost as much as I despise the Great Horny One.
Hold on a few -- I'm still getting into my "Chomsky disciple" garb. Then I have to kill a cat with the ceremonial "Chomsky sword", smelted by unholy fire in the depths of hell (the basement of MIT).
Then I can proselytize.
8318. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 10:17 PM PT
All right! All right. I can't substantiate. Jeez, sorry.. It was just a gut feeling. But if you won't accept NATO's assessment, where do you go for your info? The Kremlin? Rush? Tom DeLay? What crystal ball do you use? As for my tirade against the Republicans, I take most of it back. Well, maybe all of it. They are a swell bunch of guys and I'm sure the troops appreciate their support.
8319. TrialShark - June 12, 1999 - 10:46 PM PT
"We can argue about whether we should have become involved in this conflict and about how we prosecuted the war, but we should all agree that our victory is very good news for the United States, NATO and the world."
-- Senator John S. McCain
8320. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:02 PM PT
As the Great Senator McCain says, "we can argue about whether we should have become involved in this war and how it was prosecuted."
8321. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 11:05 PM PT
Thank you trial shark. McCain is a gutsy Republican and a war hero to boot. Of course, if you read the posts of the right wingers on this thread, you must understand that he is only blowing smoke. He can't possibly know what he is talking about because his view is different from their's. And they KNOW. But don't ask how they know. Just accept it. Once again, thanks for that quote.
8322. TrialShark - June 12, 1999 - 11:14 PM PT
Most High Revered Space Ace, Ruler of the Cosmos and Generalissimo to the Stars --
I am indeed pleased at your return, sir. I am pleased that you see the wisdom in Senator McCain's words, and know that you, too, agree that our victory is indeed very good news for the United States, NATO, and the world.
Doubtless you will want to post your personal warm wishes to the Commander-in-Chief for bringing us said victory.
8323. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 11:18 PM PT
FTC: I imagine you're sacked out by this time. but if not,would you please respond to my post 8313. Did NATO really "order" the Serbs to leave Kosovo? And when was that order given? If you have the precise wording, could you pass it along? That should be interesting reading for everybody.
8324. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:22 PM PT
Trial:
Sorry, KKKlinton's poll-tested cowardice combined with his Milquetoast-Rambo form of pacifism and his "we've got to do *some* thing even if it's the *wrong* thing" brand of idiotic liberalism caused the "war" to drag out nine weeks longer than it needed to, resulting in the deaths and dislocations of a million people.
Truly he's learned "the lesson of Vietnam":
He had to destroy the village to save it.
8325. TrialShark - June 12, 1999 - 11:22 PM PT
Generalissimo Ace --
Sir, did you happen to find a cite for the quote you attributed to the President, sir?
8326. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:24 PM PT
Yes I did.
8327. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:24 PM PT
What quote?
8328. TrialShark - June 12, 1999 - 11:27 PM PT
Oh Exalted Multi-Starred Generalissimo --
Sir, if you do not know what quote I referred to, sir, how do you know you found a cite for it, sir?
8329. bottomfdr - June 12, 1999 - 11:30 PM PT
Ace: You speak in riddles tonight. What village did "he" destroy. Could you elaborate?
8330. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:30 PM PT
I was going to make a joke, then decided I a) didn't really have a joke and b) wasn't sure what you were talking about.
PS:
The "sir" stuff just keeps getting funnier.
If that's possible.
8331. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:32 PM PT
Bottomfeeder:
You can figure it out. You're smart enough.
On second though, you're really one of our dimmest bulbs, arentcha?
The "village" in question is the province of Kosovo. But don't let that village-province thing fool you.
8332. TrialShark - June 12, 1999 - 11:41 PM PT
Lord God High Commander of the Stars, the Planets, and the Spaces Between --
I am disappointed that you did not have a joke, sir, but heartened by the realization that most everything you write provokes gales of laughter from all who read it. I aspire to someday be as funny as you, sir, but realize that you are by far the biggest joke in the Fray.
You will recall that you asked, sir, "DID PRESIDENT CLINTON CLAIM, ON THE EVE OF THE BOMBING, THAT A GOAL OF THE MISSION WAS TO ****PREVENT**** ETHNIC CLEANSING FROM HAPPENING AT ALL? YES OR NO?"
Since you used all capital letters, sir, it seemed that you must have had some idea what you were talking about, sir. I therefore wondered if you could cite me a speech in which our victorious Commander-in-Chief claimed, on the eve of the bombing, that a goal of the mission was to "prevent ethnic cleansing from happening at all."
Yes or no, sir.
8333. AceofSpades - June 12, 1999 - 11:47 PM PT
Yes, such a quote exists; if I remember it correctly, the quote *you* cited from Clinton-- which spoke of "deterring Slobo from escalating his ethnic cleansing"-- is close enough for government work.
But there are better quotes, I'm sure. No, I don't have it handy. No, I won't go searching for it.
Tell you what-- you search for it and find it. If after searching for it for four or five days, you don't find it, you let me know, and I'll work with you to try to help you improve your searching.
Deal, Flabbyass?
8334. EricCartman1 - June 13, 1999 - 12:10 AM PT
Everything I heard from the WH spin machine indicated that preventing ethnic cleansing was the primary *stated* goal of the alliance.
Otherwise, what else would they have given for a reason?
8335. TrialShark - June 13, 1999 - 12:12 AM PT
High Grand Space Marshal Ace, Saviour of the Realm and Self-Proclaimed Infallible Oracle of the Galaxy --
*Of course* such a quote exists, sir: you have proclaimed it to be thus, and therefore it indubitably must be so. The Commander-in-Chief, who led our great nation to our victory in Kosovo, *must* have said that our goal was "prevent ethnic cleansing from happening at all," even though, as evidenced by the link I provided, he told the nation that the cleansing had already begun and therefore it could not be "prevented from happening at all."
Sir.
Still, I know you must be right, because you yourself have said so; and why would you lie, sir? Not merely to protect your own fantasies of invincibility, of course, sir, because as you regularly proclaim, you are in fact invincible. Although there are those who would argue that your failure to produce any evidence of your correctitude -- particularly after having been so snottily insistent -- demonstrates that you are, and have always been, a pompous and bullying fraud.
But *I* would never entertain such a notion, sir.
I know that you are engaged in serious affairs of state, and too busy wrestling with the crucial issues of our time to back up your words with a simple cite, sir. After all, it's not as though you lived your whole miserable little life in the Fray, sir.
And with that happy thought, sir, I must join my family in sweet slumber. We have an exciting day planned for tomorrow.
Pleasant dreams.
8336. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 12:12 AM PT
Well, they were worried that "a teamwork exercise for NATO" might not fly.
8337. EricCartman1 - June 13, 1999 - 12:16 AM PT
Cal:
Exactly. Mustn't compromise NATO's "credibility".
8338. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 12:20 AM PT
I'm surprised the Tinkerbell approach didn't occur to them.
"Oh, no! Don't let NATO die, boys and girls! Clap your hands, quick quick quick!"
8339. EricCartman1 - June 13, 1999 - 12:44 AM PT
Yes, NATO does live in a fantasy world, to a certain degree. It has a member committing similar atrocities to Milosevic (Turkey, of course), several members who were dissenting on the prosecution of the war, and two members who are constantly rattling sabres at one another (Greece and Turkey). And they have managed to irritate and isolate Russia and China to a huge degree, which is good news to Jexster/Colossus, but bad news to rational people.
Plus, NATO is now hustling for new members amongst the former Warsaw Pact nations, because defense contractors can never have too many "mandatory" clients. (Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic must upgrade their forces to meet NATO requirements. Guess who they have to buy their weapons from?)
NATO -- relevant benefactor, and enforcer of universal humanitarian decrees? or alternate foreign policy arm for the US, and umbrella organization for defense contractor shills?
8340. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 12:51 AM PT
But dearheart--is this a fantasy, or a....
(drum roll please)
CONSPIRACY?????
8341. EricCartman1 - June 13, 1999 - 1:02 AM PT
Reality.
8342. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 1:10 AM PT
Hey, it's Saturday night. I'll buy it.
8343. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 1:26 AM PT
TrialGirl:
You're misunderstanding my KKKlinton "quote," which is understandable, since the "prevent any ethnic cleansing from happening at all" is incorrect.
What I *meant* was: Prevent the *real* ethnic cleansing which began with the bombing. Prevent genocide, which only began with the bombing.
Obviously he could not prevent the fairly limited "cleansing" which had already occurred. Although, of course, that was really no more than a thuggish police action in search of KLA.
No, I mean: KKKlinton made it a goal of NATO to prevent and deter "genocide" and mass ethnic cleansing, or, as Jexster likes to say, implementation of his his plans for genocide and mass ethnic cleansing.
Just like your own quote said.
By this criterion, sir (Oh, man! That's fun! "Sir!" That really *IS* funny! Thank you, In-the-rear-with-the-gear JAG Corps TrialGirl!), KKKlinton's idiotic policy failed miserably.
8344. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 1:29 AM PT
Here's your own quote, TrialGirl:
Our strikes have three objectives. First, to demonstrate the seriousness of NATO's opposition to aggression and its support for peace. Second, to deter President Milosevic from continuing and escalating his attacks on helpless civilians by imposing a price for those attacks. And third, if necessary, to damage Serbia's capacity to wage war against Kosovo in the future by seriously diminishing its military capabilities.
WOuld you say KKKlinton accomplished his second goal-- "to deter President Milosevic from continuing and escalating his attacks on helpless civilians by imposing a price for those attacks."
Seems to me, Sweetie-Boop-Cakes (Sir), that Slobo did "continue" and even "escalate" his attacks on helpless civilians.
Did we then "deter"
8345. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 1:38 AM PT
Ace,
For no earthly reason I can think of, I always think you're referring to me when you say "Girl".
Also, I'm curious as to why you think it is a dreadful insult to call a man a woman?
8346. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 1:44 AM PT
Seems to me, Sweetie-Boop-Cakes (Sir), that Slobo did "continue" and even "escalate" his attacks on helpless civilians.
Did we then "deter" those attacks, TrialGirl?
Oh wait-- don't tell me. We "deterred" them because they stopped SEVENTY-EIGHT DAYS LATER. I get it. "Deter" means "deter retroactively." "Deter" doesn't mean "dissuade from carrying out an action," it means "eventually coax to stop an action already accomplished."
And we sure "deterred" him from doing this in the future, since, of course, he's already done it. Ergo, there's no need to do it in the future. Mission accomplished. He is "deterred" from doing something he's already done.
I'm so proud I could weep.
Perhaps KKKlinton should have defined the goals thus:
"First, I will reassure the American people, who have little confidence in my leadership and judgement, that I will not risk ground troops in this "war."
Second, by virtue of my promise not to deploy ground troops, I will give aid and comfort to Slobo, who will therefore be freed to act on his nascent plans for genocide and punish the Kosovar people for NATO's airstrikes, and to cause the Kosovars misery and death unimagineable.
Third, in contravention of all the "lessons of Vietnam" that I, as a draft-dodging protestor, claim to have learned, I will escalate the air war extraodinarily slowly, so that I will not begin bombing any useful factories or military bases until at least the third week of the war, thus ensuring there are a full three weeks of ethnic cleansing without a significant amount of pain for the Serbs.
8347. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 1:44 AM PT
Fourth, I will have my flack Joe Lockhard announce that we "expected" the intesified ethnic cleansing in response to the bombing, and yet I promise you-- my fellow Americans -- that I will not have drinking water, diapers, blankets, tents, firewood, or food stocked at the borders for the refugees which I "expected" would be created in response to my poorly-thought out campaign.
Fifth, I promise to radicalize the Russian populace and military by attacking a historic ally of Russia, such that a Russian Lieutennant General expressly defies Yeltsin and races into Pristina as a show of defiance.
Sixth, just for shits and giggles, I will give away a Stealth fighter and bomb the Chinese embassy.
These are my promises to you, the American people."
Now, TrialGirl, had President Clinton expressed his goals thusly, I would have no argument that he accomplished each one.
And how.
8348. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 1:47 AM PT
Cal:
It is not an insult to call a woman a "woman" or a girl a "girl." It is an insult to call a "man" (which TrialGirl clearly isn't) a "girl."
Manliness is a male virtue, no matter what your Northern California philosophy may say. And it is an insult to say that a so-called "man" like TrialGirl has no manliness.
I've told you (or someone else, like Bumpkin Feminist Bubbaette) this before. If you ask again, you'll get a similar answer.
8349. wexxford1 - June 13, 1999 - 4:30 AM PT
Eric Cartman, baby -- " Reality " you say . Len Downie, exec editor of the Washington Post, sez the paper can't cover the Yugo nonsense because of censorship . Its PR, baby, PR you and your biddies are reading. You don't like censorship of American newspapers ? Sorry, lad. That's the way the game is played in the land of the free .
8350. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 6:49 AM PT
From the Washington Post: "When reporters later tried to attend a news conference at the airport by General Mike Jackson, the British commander of the NATO force, they were truned away by Serbian police who blocked access to the site. Members of the small British press pool reported that Russian armored personnel carriers roared up and down the runway, effectively drowning out Jackson's remarks."
Paybacks are hell. And military officers can be petty, writes Rugellos Maase at TT's excellent "Clinton's War" thread. Rug recalls that Mike Jackson ordered the crew to rev up his helicopter engines as he left the negotiations in Macedonia earlier this week--to drown out the concluding speech and remarks of the Yugoslavian General Officer. A small world.
8351. TrialShark - June 13, 1999 - 8:07 AM PT
Ambassador Cal --
"Ace ... I'm curious as to why you think it is a dreadful insult to call a man a woman?"
Ma'am, it's because the Generalissimo doesn't like women, ma'am. He prefers the company of men -- *manly* men, if you get my drift, ma'am.
But let's keep that our secret, shall we, ma'am?
8352. TrialShark - June 13, 1999 - 8:11 AM PT
High Grand Generalissimo Ace, Manly Man, Keeper of Undergarments Belonging to Other Manly Men, and Interior Decorator Extraordinaire --
"... the "prevent any ethnic cleansing from happening at all" is incorrect."
Oh, no, sir. Sir, you insisted, in capital letters, that the Commander-in-Chief said this was our goal at the begining of the war, sir. Then, sir, even after perusing his actual statement, you again insisted that the quote was accurate. You even deployed the razor-sharp riposte "flabbyass" as proof of your intellectual superiority, sir.
And now, sir, it turns out you are full of shit. Sir.
Oh, woe betide us all.
"What I *meant* was ... "
Sir, I confess I stopped reading at that point. It cuts me to the quick to see you flounder in such an undignified manner, sir. We all know what you said, sir. We all know you said it forecefully, sir, and on several occasions, sir. The fact that you apparently did not at any time know what our goals were during the entire course of the war is indeed a humiliating admission for you, sir. I shall not watch as you further debase yourself, sir, by trying to slide by on what you "meant" to say.
I am certain, sir, that after some perhaps-sober reflection, you will accept the view of the senior senator from Arizona -- son and grandson of admirals, graduate of our nation's Naval Academy, combat pilot and courageous former prisoner of war -- that our nation achieved a victory for the United States, NATO, and the world. Certainly, sir, although your self-proclaimed manly virtues are beyond challenge, you would acknowledge that next to Senator McCain you are but a squirming little weasel whose opinions are worth less than used food. Sir.
And with that, sir, I bid you a fond, yet extremely manly, farewell. I have a busy day planned with my lovely and extremely womanly wife and our wonderful children. Good day.
Sir.
8353. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 8:11 AM PT
Russians are driving Serbian tanks in Kosovo, reports UPI.
The tanks, Warsaw Pact designed, were hidden in mountain tunnels at the Pristina airport.
This could soon be another "Berlin Airlift" but with the Russians wearing the white hats.
8354. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 8:13 AM PT
TS, do you think that anyone reads all the copy in your posts? (Other than me, of course).
Get off this machine and help your wife with your baby!
8355. FreeToChoose - June 13, 1999 - 9:58 AM PT
bottomfdr
"FTC: in post 8275 you intimated that NATO ordered the Serbs, who have lived all their lives in Kovoso, to leave."
I may have been over-reaching. I thought it was one of the conditions, but I may have confused the requirement that Serb soldiers leave, with a non-existent requirement that sern civilians leave.
This mornings new noted that Serb civilians were fleeing for their lives, but, abset a specific gun pointed at their heads, I trust you can explain that this is not ethnic cleansing.
"Spin.Spin.Spin."
Huh? Do you even know what "spin" is?
8356. Greystoke - June 13, 1999 - 10:34 AM PT
Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) was speaking on the House floor Wednesday when news came of the peace agreement.
"There was spontaneous applause from the Democratic side of the aisle. People were so happy that peace was in the offing," she recalled. "Not one single Republican expressed any show of relief or joy. You would think there would be some sort of spontaneous emotion. To me, it was very indicative of a situation where perhaps partisanship became more important than the national interest."
8357. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 10:52 AM PT
Food for Thought:
"The Republics of Central and South America are in a perennial state of revolution...; why do we not commence some *humane* wars and give them some *humane* government? If we adopt 'Only for the sake of humanity as the United States' motto, we shall find an endless field for operations on this globe"
Robert Lansing "Our New Foreign Policy" **1902**
8358. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 10:56 AM PT
I hate to say that I told you so - again.
As Rosie was shakin her bootie for all those studly Russian soldiers - saviors of the Pig Slerb Retreat - I delivered the message from Olympus to ycmeecham
"You have drunk Russian general doing a little creative freelancing"
and so it seems that is exactly what we have.
Fortunately, the 200 Russians are now completely surrounded, a small scale renactment of the infamous "cauldrons", encirclements of the summer of '41.
8359. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 10:57 AM PT
"TS, do you think that anyone reads all the copy in your
posts? (Other than me, of course)."
I do Rosie.
8360. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 11:04 AM PT
When the supremely ignorant 109109 asked the question, Why bomb?, way back in March, one of the reasons I stated then was that it would remind the Russians who is boss in Europe by solidifying the Civilized Curtain in Eastern Europe.
Not being one of those anxiety-ridden Chicken Littles who were infesting this place 80 days ago, I said then; have said so since and now say so again.
Russians Shitting Bricks Over NATO Power
8361. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 11:10 AM PT
Before this Thread RIPS (as I predicted a month ago), thanks again to Rosie for directing me to the LATimes Discussion.
While this thread is, with one exception, afflicted with the usual vapid Hate-Clinton foamers, the LAT has very few.
LAT is loaded with Russians, Serbians, and Greeks!
A real killing field with hardly any of the usual Loons that we see here. Thanks Rose!
8362. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 11:13 AM PT
Ace,
"It is an insult to call a 'man' (which TrialGirl clearly isn't) a 'girl.'"
Only if you think there is something wrong with being female. Quite frankly, I'd appreciate it if you were more innovative in your insults. Speaking as a female, I find it quite disconcerting when I read an insult that boils down to, "You're so stupid/weak/absurd you may as well be a CHICK!"
And of course whether or not someone is a "man" is entirely definitional, in your world view. I've always thought the only thing required was a dick.
8363. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 11:15 AM PT
Trial,
The Ace of Spade is "full of shit", at his best, an object of ridicule more often than not.
"Ambassador Cal" knows more about Jar Jar Binks and the latest sitcom than any issue of public policy where her habit is to say at least 2 utterly inconsistent things at once, then disavow all positions previously taken.
So what else is new?
8364. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
Grey:
As usual only John McCain, among Republicans, had any courage or integrity on this issue. He unabashedly proclaimed the obvious on Face the Nation this morning- this was an American fight and an American victory for which Clinton deserves credit.
He did not say but by omission conceded that the GOP deserves only obloquy for their conduct. Not only was the Senate Republican Policy committee so pro-Milosevic that it was listed on his Info Ministry's website as a friendly link; not only did the GOP fail to support our troops and even went so far as to file a bogus War Powers Suit, they persisted in their opposition right to the end.
Their actions betray the absence of conservative principle, rank Clinton hatred, and raise serious questions of political incompetence and lack of patriotism.
8365. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 11:27 AM PT
KLA terrorists have ambushed a convoy of Serbian refugees attempting to get away from the mad bombers and their allies, reports ABC news.
Many dead including a priest.
Another reason why the Russians are needed to protect civilians.
8366. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 11:28 AM PT
For the Serbophiles, Republican Jane Fondas and miscellaneous Chicken Littles of the Fray, the final results are in:
.009% of all bombs hit the wrong target - unheard of numbers
And no I don't give a good god-damn that the Chinese embassy was reduced to dust and ash.
8367. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 11:30 AM PT
You actually believe that propaganda from the mad bombers?
8368. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 11:33 AM PT
German nazi storm troopers attacked civilians at Prizren this afternoon.
8369. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 12:18 PM PT
Perhaps KKKlinton should have defined the goals thus:
"First, I will reassure the American people, who have little confidence in my leadership and judgement, that I will not risk ground troops in this "war."
Second, by virtue of my promise not to deploy ground troops, I will give aid and comfort to Slobo, who will therefore be freed to act on his nascent plans for genocide and punish the Kosovar people for NATO's airstrikes, and to cause the Kosovars misery and death unimagineable.
Third, in contravention of all the "lessons of Vietnam" that I, as a draft-dodging protestor, claim to have learned, I will escalate the air war extraodinarily slowly, so that I will not begin bombing any useful factories or military bases until at least the third week of the war, thus ensuring there are a full three weeks of ethnic cleansing without a significant amount of pain for the Serbs.
8347. AceofSpades - June 13, 1999 - 1:44 AM PT
Fourth, I will have my flack Joe Lockhard announce that we "expected" the intesified ethnic cleansing in response to the bombing, and yet I promise you-- my fellow Americans -- that I will not have drinking water, diapers, blankets, tents, firewood, or food stocked at the borders for the refugees which I "expected" would be created in response to my poorly-thought out campaign.
Fifth, I promise to radicalize the Russian populace and military by attacking a historic ally of Russia, such that a Russian Lieutennant General expressly defies Yeltsin and races into Pristina as a show of defiance.
Sixth, just for shits and giggles, I will give away a Stealth fighter and bomb the Chinese embassy.
These are my promises to you, the American people."
8370. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 12:35 PM PT
" KKKlinton"
You silly shit.
I bet your ass looks like 50 lbs of chewed bubble gum.
8371. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 12:37 PM PT
"German nazi storm troopers attacked civilians at Prizren
this afternoon."
I hope they killed every last Slerb pig there Rose.
Why don't you take Cullen and go defend Holy Kossova?
You been to the LAT discussion lately?
Am having a ball with you and your kind.
8372. RosettaStone - June 13, 1999 - 12:56 PM PT
jex: Never been there. What it's site and your handle? The best forum is TT's "Clinton's War" and NYTimes. The latter is monitored by both CIA and KGB.
8373. Greystoke - June 13, 1999 - 1:41 PM PT
CalGal
"I've always thought the only thing required was a dick."
And don't forget testicles. We have those, too.
And you don't.
Na na na na na.
8374. CalGal - June 13, 1999 - 1:47 PM PT
All the better for kicking, dearheart.
Besides.
We got tits.
bwahahahahahahahahaha.
8375. LadyChaos - June 13, 1999 - 2:02 PM PT
I was wondering why Milosevic so abruptly agreed to the G-8 terms for withdrawal. Now I think we have an idea of what really happened - a secret protocol between Moscow and Belgrade for Russian troops to occupy as much of northern Kosovo as possible before NATO could get in. Olde "Yeller" Yeltsin pulled a move right out of Stalin's playbook on this one. Once again, the Russians display a superior understanding of the political value of military occupation. It will be interesting to see how long the Serb celebration lasts.
8376. bottomfdr - June 13, 1999 - 2:37 PM PT
LadyChaos: So true. So true. The Russkies did preempt NATO in a nervy way. While NATO was very carefully getting started into Kosovo, the Russians simply drove on into Pristina and out to the airport. Sort of like a Sunday drive. And then one Russian tank blocked the road and turned the French Army around. Now 200 Russian soldiers are telling NATO who is going to run things. And of course, while all this was going on, the American contingent was still waiting around outside Kosovo. What a fiasco! If NATO doesn't pick up the pace, they're going to be playing follow-the-leader from now on.
8377. EricCartman1 - June 13, 1999 - 2:53 PM PT
Colossus Message #8357:
"'The Republics of Central and South America are in a perennial state of revolution...; why do we not commence some *humane* wars and give them some *humane* government?'"
Indeed, since we *have* done such a bang-up job installing "humane governments" throughout Central and South America.
Haven't we???
"'If we adopt "Only for the sake of humanity" as the United States' motto, we shall find an endless field for operations on this globe.'"
Yes, but then we'd find ourselves putting out fires everywhere wouldn't we? So we must only choose those which: 1) involve no chance whatsoever for any of our professional soldiers to get hurt; 2) don't hurt any of our allies' feelings, even if they're being inhumane; 3) don't involve countries who buy shit from us, especially war shit, 'cause we make a lot of $$$ selling it; 4) don't involve countries where our corporations do a lot of business, because the corporations have contributed handsomely to all politicos, and deservedly expect due consideration.
8378. bottomfdr - June 13, 1999 - 3:07 PM PT
cartman: you point #3 is well taken. Involve no chance for our soldiers to get hurt. The trouble is that cream-puff operations like Grenada for instance, just don't present themselves that often. The nearest thing to it might have been in Lebanon, but you know what happened there. Boom!
8379. LadyChaos - June 13, 1999 - 3:08 PM PT
bottomfdr,
This reminds me so much of Patton being stalled at Pilsen while Stalin turned his tanks toward Prague.
I practical terms, we could easily eject those Russian troops, but with an unpredictable guy like Yeltsin with his finger on the button...
8380. LadyChaos - June 13, 1999 - 3:08 PM PT
bottomfdr,
This reminds me so much of Patton being stalled at Pilsen while Stalin turned his tanks toward Prague.
In practical terms, we could easily eject those Russian troops, but with an unpredictable guy like Yeltsin with his finger on the button...
8381. EricCartman1 - June 13, 1999 - 3:19 PM PT
Bottomfdr:
When was the last time we didn't have a "cream-puff" operation; that being one where the outcome was easily pre-ordained? Even Serbia would have been over in a week or two, if not for gradual escalation. Even without the rest of the mighty NATO machine, the Serbs were the bug and we were the boot. No sweat. All this hoo-ha over the "first war won solely with air power". Big fucking deal. We can do the same thing to a bunch of pissant countries around the world, any day of the week.
Grenada was merely a distraction.
8382. bottomfdr - June 13, 1999 - 3:31 PM PT
LadyChaos: Good point. We could if we wanted to, just bring up a Warthog and blast that tank out of the way. But Boris still has his finger on the button. Or does he? It could be almost anybody, and that's what so scary. I could be that the Russian missles are all rusted in their silos, but who wants to take the chance? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, the frustation!
8383. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 4:17 PM PT
Message #8377
Ever since that ballsy Panama operation, no one in S. America dare mess with us.
Free Manuel!
8384. ycmeehan - June 13, 1999 - 4:24 PM PT
Colossus,
Will Yeltsin mess with us for long if he wants his four billions of dollars? The Council of the eight big countries is meeting next week.
8385. colossus - June 13, 1999 - 5:44 PM PT
YC -
The Russians are pathetic. If it weren't for those nukes....
I heard that they can't even send troops to Kosova unless the EU or US agrees to pay their salaries. Not sure that's true, but it rings true.
The best news is that the Germans have blooded themselves in their first action in 60 years. The best defense against Russian or Serb or Belorussian or any shenanigans in E. Europe is a strong and self-confident Germany. Always has been.
8386. aldavis - June 13, 1999 - 7:15 PM PT
colossus aka jexster
It is called balance of power, my dear boy. Surely you have heard of that. It is what has kept things so peaceful in Europe, until the fall of the USSR. Now is Yeltsin would just keep his finger on that button, Clinton will wet his pants and have no idea what to do. I can hardly wait to have the intellectual giant on the throne, Albert Gore. Hail to the Chef.
8387. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 6:49 AM PT
Too bad an aerial observer didn't "mistake" the Russian column headed toward Pristina for a Yugoslav force acting in violation of the agreement and call in an air strike. "If you don't inform NATO of your troop movements...terrible accidents can happen..."
Since the Russians want to act independently, they can have a sector along the Macedonian border away from refugee routes, they can supply their own fuel and food, and they can pay they soldiers. Have fun!
8388. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 6:55 AM PT
FTC:
If you were a Serb living in Kosovo and had been listening to Yugoslav media propaganda, and had known about--or been complicit in--the ethnic cleansing carried out by Serb paramilitaries, you would probably be wise to flee the area.
8389. RosettaStone - June 14, 1999 - 7:27 AM PT
Given the opportunity, people aways flee from nazis.
Yugoslavia did not launch an unprovoked attack on another country. It was dealing with its domestic civil war with its civilians killing each other. But NATO did, breaking its charter and showing us who the real war criminals really are, and for 78 days rained death from 15,000 feet on men, women and children.
Isn't that what the nazis used to do?
America should be ashamed of itself for being part of NATO.
8390. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
Rosetta:
Any Serbian exodus from Kosovo is going to be more like those who fled because they aligned themselves with the Nazis and lost. If the Serbs had their way, Kosovo would have eventually been "Albanienfrei." Too bad that you are too dense to see it that way.
8391. Trialshark - June 14, 1999 - 9:25 AM PT
Rosie --
"Isn't that what the nazis used to do?"
You mean shooting civilians, torching their homes, and driving the survivors into camps lacking in basic sanitation and protection from the elements?
8392. RosettaStone - June 14, 1999 - 9:31 AM PT
TS: The same thing you mentioned happened in Bosnia to 300,000 Serb refugees, and no one said a word.
In fact, we rewarded the people who did it.
Hypocrites!
8393. vonKreedon - June 14, 1999 - 9:51 AM PT
Regarding the Russians at the Prishtina airport, this was a much better move than I expected from the Russians. Gives them a place of importance that they can afford in KFOR. The rest of KFOR (read NATO) should acquiese (sp?) and make the airport the Russian zone of operations. This has several benefits:
- Gives the Russians face as they now control what could be called the key to Kossovo (though we actually could avoid using that airport is absolutely necessary) and so molifies Russian sensibilities.
- Keeps the Russians out of direct contact with Serb or KLA forces, and out of contact with returning Kosovar refugees.
- Keeps NATO from having to pay for a Russian deployment to Kosova as running the airport is something that the Russians can, probably, do on their own or with some technical assistance from NATO units.
So, we should see beyond being out maneuvered in the short run to seize the chance to put the Russians at the airport to good use.
8394. Trialshark - June 14, 1999 - 10:04 AM PT
Rosie --
You didn't answer the question. I suspect that's because you don't like the answer, but don't want to lie.
8395. bottomfdr - June 14, 1999 - 10:15 AM PT
So let the Russians have the airport. They can control who has access to their part but what is to say that NATO can't then form a ring aroud it and establish absolute control to that small area where the Russians have control. It would be a big ring around a smaller ring. Sooner or later the Russians are going to get lonely. If the airstrip is unusable, which I doubt, they could also get hungry.
8396. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 10:28 AM PT
Rosie:
You are of course referring to Krajina. You omit the fact that the Serbian forces in Bosnia had previously "cleansed" Krajina of Croatians. Same situation as in Kosovo. Who is the hypocrite now?
8397. RosettaStone - June 14, 1999 - 10:31 AM PT
All those who want the United States to get involved in the Balkan Civil War.
8398. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 10:36 AM PT
The US has been "involved" in it since it started in 1989. Now please tell us why--according to you--the Serbs can--and never--do any wrong.
8399. ycmeehan - June 14, 1999 - 10:46 AM PT
Wombat,
It is impossible to talk to fanatics. Fanaticism does not breed in a vacuum-It breeds in an athmosphere of hatred and ignorance.
8400. Wombat - June 14, 1999 - 10:56 AM PT
YC
I am puzzled by Rosie. He is a Clinton foamer, and is moralistic, hardly unique in the Fray. He is profoundly ignorant on many aspects current events, also not unique. On the other hand, he is generally civil, comparatively rare among his ilk (or anyone's). The mystery to me is how someone so ordinary can go so completely--and IMO misguidedly--bananas on this subject.