202. CalGal - March 27, 1999 - 5:00 PM PT
Has anyone heard more about the NATO warplane (US Stealth Nighthawk, whatever that is) shot down over Yugoslavia?
203. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:10 PM PT
F-117 is down Cal unless the Disney Studios are helping the Serbs fake the wreckage.
No more nonsense. Time for counter value targeting. A little city busting goes a long way.
:)
204. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:11 PM PT
PE -
Good idea. I'm off to suggest it.
205. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:23 PM PT
Russian Passion Toward Serbia
Has Epic History
MOSCOW, Mar. 27, 1999 -- (Reuters) Western
leaders may see the Serbs as the main aggressors
in Kosovo, but Russians, with few exceptions,
disagree.
In the great Russian author Leo Tolstoy's novel
"Anna Karenina," hundreds of young Russian
volunteers, singing patriotic songs, pack into
railroad cars bound for Serbia to fight in the
Balkans.
"The heroism of the Serbs and Montenegrins,
fighting for a great cause, aroused in the whole
nation a desire to help their brothers not only with
words but with deeds," he wrote.
206. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:24 PM PT
Russia has fought to defend Serbia, which shares a language, religion and culture similar to its own, at least half a dozen times in the last 150 years.
Today Russians from across the political
spectrum see the United States as the new bully
in the Balkans, taking the place of Ottoman
Turkey, imperial Austria and Nazi Germany.
Tolstoy wrote about Serbia's grip on the Russian
imagination in 1877, when Czar Alexander II, a
reformer whose opponents attacked him as weak
and incompetent, rattled sabers over Serbia to
prove the strength of the Russian state.
The novelist could have been writing four
decades later, during the Balkan Wars of
1912-13. Or during World War I, when Russia
fought to free Bosnian Serbs from Austria. Or
during World War II, when Russians spoke in awe of Communist Serb partisans struggling against German and Croatian fascists.
207. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:26 PM PT
If you listen to the talk in Moscow, he could have been writing today.
The author of fliers circulating on Thursday in ultra-nationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky's party headquarters is clearly no Tolstoy. But the message comes across well enough.
"Today, the victims of the worldwide menace are our centuries-old
brothers in arms, faith, spirit and flesh -- the Orthodox Slav Serbs!" it read.
When Andrei Kornev, an unemployed former Soviet military mechanic
from the Ural Mountains city of Penza, saw Zhirinovsky on television call for volunteers to defend Serbia, he took his last few hundred rubles and flew to Moscow to sign up.
He was joined by a few dozen other men at Zhirinovsky's headquarters.
"It makes me angry that the Americans go wherever they please. I want
to help my brother Serbs any way I can," he said.
Slavic nationalism has often bubbled up in Russia when the government
has been weak, said historian Richard Wortman of Columbia University in New York.
208. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:29 PM PT
The ailing President Boris Yeltsin "is very much in the same position as Alexander II," he said.
Nationalists and Communists have indeed made a cause of Serbia
throughout the Yeltsin years. The nationalist newspaper Zavtra has been known to print poems by Bosnian Serb leader and war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic on its front page.
But by defying Russia to launch its air strikes, NATO has infuriated many Russians who otherwise might have had little sympathy for Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic.
"It is insulting when Russia is ignored," an announcer on ORT television said, a passing comment that summed up the mood.
For now there is little Russians can do to vent their outrage. Some pelted the American embassy with eggs on Thursday. A small handful, like Kornev, may even head to Kosovo to fight.
But if not all the words lead to real action, that would be another sign that much has not changed since Tolstoy's day.
"Amid this general elation in Society, those who were unsuccessful or
discontented leapt to the front and shouted louder than anyone else:
Commanders in Chief without armies, ministers without portfolios,
journalists without newspapers and party leaders without followers," the novelist wrote. ( (c) 1999 Reuters)
209. jexster - March 27, 1999 - 5:41 PM PT
"Lukashenko said the Belarussian defense minister was holding consultations with his Russian counterpart on Kosovo but added to soothe the audience: "We need to build bridges, dams and grow cucumbers."
210. msgreer - March 27, 1999 - 7:06 PM PT
F 117 down and everyone is acknowledging it but the Pentagon.
211. CalGal - March 27, 1999 - 7:16 PM PT
Well, they've rescued the pilot of the plane that hasn't officially been shot down.
212. joezan - March 27, 1999 - 7:21 PM PT
CalGal:
Says who? I just heard, like 5 minutes ago, that rescue troops had been sent, but that was it...
213. msgreer - March 27, 1999 - 7:25 PM PT
pentagon about to hold news conference to say u.s. recovered down pilot.
214. PincherMartin - March 27, 1999 - 7:30 PM PT
msgreer --
I read that the jet shot down was an F-15.
215. joezan - March 27, 1999 - 7:30 PM PT
Just heard on the news they got him. Thank God.
What's up with my MSNBC News Alert, anyway? During the Lewinsky scandal this thing was positively prescient. It's been how long now, and my little bulls eye thingy is still not flashing...
216. PincherMartin - March 27, 1999 - 7:32 PM PT
Well, according to the latest reports, it was an F-117.
217. msgreer - March 27, 1999 - 7:35 PM PT
PincherMartin...it was a stealth bomber, which i thought was F 117...you could be right... i might have heard it wrong.
Ken Bacon says it was a F117.
218. joezan - March 27, 1999 - 7:36 PM PT
F117-A Stealth Bomber.
219. PincherMartin - March 27, 1999 - 7:39 PM PT
msgreer --
No, you are right. I got the original report from Reuters. I fugured the Dutch Defense Minister's information would be more accurate than the Serbian authorities. I figured wrong.
220. msgreer - March 27, 1999 - 7:40 PM PT
Wolf Blitzer said it took 17 minutes for joint American team to rescue and get pilot out.
I am waiting to hear the reason the F117 went down. Could it have been mechanical??? We'll probably never know.
221. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 8:07 PM PT
The Department of Defense spokesman announcing the rescue of the downed F-117A stealth fighter is wearing a yellow and blue polka-dot bow tie.
222. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 8:10 PM PT
Washington D.C. must be a very strange place.
223. AuNaturel - March 27, 1999 - 8:13 PM PT
My bet is mechanical. It's completely fly by wire. Control systems go fubar and it has all the aerodynamics of a badly shaped rock. I'd send in troops to secure the wreckage if it were possible. Destroy all the useful technology at the least.
224. joezan - March 27, 1999 - 8:26 PM PT
Azure:
I said to my wife, "Now THAT is one ugly bow tie".
And it was huge! - looked like one of my daughter's hair scrunchees all twisted up...
225. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 8:40 PM PT
joezan -
With those round glasses, he looked like a clown!
226. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 8:44 PM PT
I've seen men, particularly in legal professions, wear bow ties without looking ridiculous, but I was trying to remember ever having actually spoken to a man wearing one. I don't think I ever have. I wonder if I could keep a straight face. Probably not if the tie was huge and yellow, with blue polka-dots.
227. AuNaturel - March 27, 1999 - 8:55 PM PT
Economists seem to like bow ties. And Paul Simon as I remember.
228. joezan - March 27, 1999 - 8:57 PM PT
...and don't forget the NOI.
229. AuNaturel - March 27, 1999 - 9:02 PM PT
If we were willing to throw away a couple thousand troops and arm the Kosovars to the teeth to use as light infantry, we could probably do this thing...
230. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 9:13 PM PT
I'm afraid some of us are going to be surprised how much Bill Clinton and Co. enjoys making war.
231. BobaFett - March 27, 1999 - 9:34 PM PT
Terrific. So the Russian-allied Serbs now have in their possession our still top-secret Stealth Fighter.
President CLinton is a FUCKING MORON.
And you can't just blame this on chance. George Bush took MONTHS preparing his air war.
This fucking idiot goes in there before SAM's and AA bateries have been taken out by missile or high-flying bomber.
What a Jerk off. Gives the Chinese the W-88 and balistic missile technology and he gives the Stealth to the Russians.
232. cigarlaw - March 27, 1999 - 9:40 PM PT
just what this country needs is a good war in a little country with lots of casualties. Bring back the draft, give all the officer's experience in going to foreign countries, meeting new people, and killing them.
if we had such a thing, maybe the men in this country would start going to college again, and generation xwould have someday do with its life, while it lasted of course.
United States needs to be in Serbia like fish needs a bicycle. If we want freedom for Kosovo, and toa endSerbian ethnic cleansing, the best way to do so, as in Afghanistan, is to arm the locals and let them fight their own war. This is not World War II, nor is this the Holocaust. This is in internal Civil War, and we got to get our butts out.
Pat Buchanan wants to unleash the Germans. Right. The whole purpose of us keeping a half-million men in Europe for the last 50 years, hasn't been to keep back the Russian menace, it's been to keep the Germans down. It's time to let the United States of Europe solve European problems themselves.
It would indeed be ironic, for Bismarck to be right twice. That is, if the next great war should begin over some dam foolish thing in the Balkans.
233. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
Well, BobaFett, at least the Russians won't be able to afford to build one for a while.
234. AzureNW - March 27, 1999 - 9:42 PM PT
And now they know it's not worth the expense.
235. xkennedy - March 27, 1999 - 11:11 PM PT
I am not a wacko, I am a Colonel in the US Air Force, and I work on top secret defense projects. Milosevic and the Serbians are one--you can not separate them. The only thing you can do is exterminate them. Remember what Curtis LeMay offerred as advice in Viet Nam. Bomb them back to the stone age. It is time to wipe serbia off the map.
236. BobaFett - March 27, 1999 - 11:14 PM PT
XKennedy:
Yeah? What air group are you in? What decorations have you received?
What was the date of your first commission and how often to you renew it?
237. Seguine - March 27, 1999 - 11:16 PM PT
"My bet is mechanical. It's completely fly by wire. Control systems go
fubar..."
My understanding is that fly by wire is more reliable than fly by light, not less.
Just for the record: one F-117 stealth fighter = $45 million.
238. taust1 - March 27, 1999 - 11:18 PM PT
xkennedy Just for my future information. What critieria do you use to decide a country has to be wiped off the map? Would it ever apply to a coherent group within the USA? If not why not?
239. RyckNelson - March 27, 1999 - 11:24 PM PT
Seguine,
So one less bomber could help pay for some education shortfalls or some other under funded social need.
240. taust1 - March 27, 1999 - 11:24 PM PT
Sequine You paid for the stealth fighter years age. Its what is known as sunk cost. It should not be taken into account in deciding future actions unless you are going to replace earlier than you otherwise would. My guess is we are still behind its expected replacement rate even in for peace time operation.
241. PincherMartin - March 27, 1999 - 11:25 PM PT
XKennedy, have you met Azure? Would you like an introduction?
242. RyckNelson - March 27, 1999 - 11:27 PM PT
Pincher,
That's uncalled for.
243. RyckNelson - March 27, 1999 - 11:33 PM PT
taust1,
Why should we replace these quickly. We upgrade them for years first. Newer smart missles, detection devices, etc...
Do we need another round of design technology? Can't we destroy things efficiently YET?! Could we use this money for social uplifting some day?
244. BobaFett - March 27, 1999 - 11:36 PM PT
Yeah, Ryck. Let's forget about improving our planes, despite the fact that anti-aircraft artillery and SAM's are improving everyday.
Fuck our pilots. As long as we can put another woman on welfare, it's all worth it.
Fuck bulletproof vests for cops, too. Maybe some of that money can go towards hooking schools up to the internet.
245. PincherMartin - March 27, 1999 - 11:40 PM PT
RyckNelson --
I am just trying to help two people out.
Thanks for keeping the discussion within bounds though. Having seen your rants in the past, I find it appropiate that you have been picked hall monitor.
246. BobaFett - March 27, 1999 - 11:44 PM PT
And incidenally, Ryck:
Smart weapons hit their targets more reliably than dumb weapons. You know what we did before we had smart weapons? We would just bomb the living hell out of the entire area, destroying a town to kill a bunker.
With smart weapons, we can kill the bunker and spare the town.
So your liberal instincts face a dilemma: Should we go back to saturation bombing with dumb bombs and killing lots of foreigners (many of them "minorities," by the way) or shoud we open another homeless shelter?
Your call, "Ryck."
I know the answer before you even think it:
"Why must we have war at all?"
247. taust1 - March 27, 1999 - 11:47 PM PT
Rycknelson I missed my own point in my message. One thing it meant was that you had already missed out on the other things $45million could pay for. you would only have a chance to make ythat decision again if you were considering replcing it. But I think Defence would have already factored into its budget its replacement so you probable made that decision too. Why not just raise taxes and be done with it?
248. RyckNelson - March 27, 1999 - 11:48 PM PT
Boba,
You said it not me. Am I decrying upgrades? No. I'm decrying continued support of pork barrel airplane manufacturers. They've designed the best for decades to come, now let's just add the upgrades as they come and make new planes as needed.
When will the domestic air fleets get as much attention as the military? Our fire hazards which have killed so many are just coming into light recently. Or perhaps they're only now being exposed. Whatever the case the money is pork barrel at best. Wasted IMHO.
Pincher,
I'm no hall monitor but, I don't skew people one way or the other. Since when did you get elected match maker?
249. RyckNelson - March 27, 1999 - 11:53 PM PT
I'm no call to arms radical like you Boba that's for sure. But, I'm not against war just because it's war. No, that's too shallow. The killing isn't good and it bothers me but it's a consequence of many factors. Many uncontrollable factors. Once the situation has opened the door to war how often has it been avoided? Not often, eh? It's the human jingoistic trait, man.
250. taust1 - March 28, 1999 - 1:49 AM PT
Rycknelson
Whilst not derating the human jingoist streak lets not derate other human factors like compassion, morality etc.
Which of these statements would you disagree with?
I prefer the USA to have high ethical standards.
I prefer the USA to find the use of force to impose a view on others unacceptable
I prefer the USA to take actions which will assist those suffering from unethical/immoral conduct.
I prefer the USA with its admittably in practice streaky standards to be a world policeman to the alternatives including no policeman at all.
251. wexxford1 - March 28, 1999 - 3:27 AM PT
"Bombing the Yugos"is the correct usage .
252. joezan - March 28, 1999 - 6:07 AM PT
Well, the shit has hit the fan - no pretense anymore. The Serbs are running amok, and I think it's become abundantly clear that things will only get worse unless ground troops are sent in.
253. jadeGOLD - March 28, 1999 - 7:15 AM PT
America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country."
--Pat Buchanan supporting his fascist Serbian brethren
The proud, the ignorant, the GOFP.
254. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 7:24 AM PT
The Serbs would not be running amok if NATO hadn't begun this ill-advised campaign. Kosovo is NOT Bosnia. NATO is just making things worse.
255. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 7:31 AM PT
SM appears to be taking this opportunity created by NATO attacks to depopulate Kosovo altogether. What a stupid thing NATO has been doing. The only way to prevent large-scale expulsion and massacre is to send in ground forces, something which NATO would be morally obliged to do now that they've botched things up with this bombing campaign. The introduction of NATO ground forces will surely result in the eventual independence of Kosovo, which can of course create yet another disaster -- in Macedonia. This bombing campaign is the STUPIDEST thing NATO has ever done.
256. jadeGOLD - March 28, 1999 - 7:44 AM PT
Naturally, you are quite wrong, PE. But, I'd listen to your take on what you'd have done earlier.
257. 109109 - March 28, 1999 - 7:50 AM PT
A little prescience. Today's paper aptly demonstrates the three primary themes of this ill-fated idiocy in Yougolsavia. First, the story with the most impressive feature is that one - count it "1" - plane has been shot down. Flyer recaptured. But, eek!, we lost a plane.
Two, another story outlines the Albright/Clinton decision to rule our griound troops. Nice strategy, politically. As for conducting a military campaign, it rarely helps.
Third, the entire campaign has been unveiled as no more than the United States hitting a wasp's nest with a stick. Now, they are buzzing and worse, they have been stirred to action against their targets in Kosovo. And thye move with authority and conviction.
So, we are one big bomb hitting a day care center OR a loss of an actual American life away from ceasing the campaign, declaring victory, and consigning the civilians of Kosovo to the hills of Macedonia or Albania.
258. 109109 - March 28, 1999 - 7:52 AM PT
our griound=out ground
thye-they
259. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 7:54 AM PT
JadeGold: You're ignorant.
I've posted my take both here and in international. The Serbs and the ethnic Albanians had arrived at an uneasy modus operandi by 1996. However, egged on by Albania and impatient for independence, a segment of the ethnic Albanian population became radicalised and formed the KLA, which promptly began a terrorist campaign against Serb targets. The Serbian human rights violations NATO has been responding to are the effects of the counterterrorist and counterinsurgency campaign. But in no way could the actions of Yugoslav security forces in Kosovo be compared either in magnitude or purpose with the ethnic cleansing that had been carried out in Bosnia by ethnic Serbs. The problem is that the United States is so afraid of another Bosnia that it can't quite see that Kosovo isn't Bosnia.
Except now, NATO bombing is apparently in the process of transforming what was NOT a Bosnia into something very similar, by allowing the most radical elements in Serbia to gain the upper hand and begin a systematic ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.
I find the complacency and ignorance of bombing supporters like yourself disgusting.
Anyway, even if Kosovar Albanians are not "cleansed", if they do gain independence it can only result in disaster for Macedonia.
260. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 7:57 AM PT
Thousands of refugees are already streaming into Albania and Macedonia. How does that do ANYTHING other than strengthen and further Serbian aims??? And is someone going to tell me that these refugees would be streaming into Albania and Macedonia if it were not for NATO bombing??? NATO bombing has made fears of ethnic cleanseing self-fulfilling.
261. jadeGOLD - March 28, 1999 - 8:06 AM PT
Ahhh, the mewling of another know-nothing.
Again, the question is what you would have done differently. Would you have immediately committed ground forces? Would you have done nothing?
262. 109109 - March 28, 1999 - 8:07 AM PT
PE
Perhaps the saddest fact of this engagement will be the fact that, if the policy was agreed upon (i.e., stop the Serbs from violations in Kosovo), it had to be envisioned that attackes upon Kosovans would increase in the fever-pitch of bombing, thereby making ground troops a requirement. So no, the administration is in between the rock of a complete wipeout of its aims in Kosovo (largely humanitarian) and it's idiotic, this-will-be-pain-free stance on the commission of ground troops, with the political conseuquences of that act.
When a decision has to be made between consigning Kosovo to the now-emboldened Serbs or making a risky political decision that contradicts the stated intent of no ground troops, I wonder what the administration will do?
263. 109109 - March 28, 1999 - 8:10 AM PT
Jade
Either whole hog or not-at-all. Not-at-all actually, but if you are going to do it, do it. I am actually surprised that your slavish (no pun intended) and robotic tendencies actually stretch beyond mere domestic politics. Pseudo is incorrect. You're not ignorant. You're merely a hack.
On that note, adios.
264. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:16 AM PT
Let me slide in an position here...
Clinton's unspoken motives for this bombing campain is to enhance his legacy and detract attention from continuing scandals. No one was taking him seriously anymore, and China was getting hot again. If he can claim to have stopped another "Hitler", he will be perceived a great hero of mankind - at least in his own mind. Not only that, but besides the obvious media distraction this has, any newly reported findings about China will be labled by Clinton defenders as "purely political" and "a distraction in a time of national crisis."
This in itself is shocking to consider. What is even more shocking is that our first draft-dodging (not to mention pathologically lying, philandering, and rapist) president has initiated more military action by a president than many of us can remember. What is MOST shocking, however, is the number of hitherto "vehemently anti-hawkish" liberals who are suddenly pro-military.
265. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 8:27 AM PT
Message #261
I would have done nothing by way of military action.
266. lemwalker - March 28, 1999 - 8:27 AM PT
Can NATO continue if it fails?
267. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 8:28 AM PT
The situation in Kosovo is the worse for the bombing.
268. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:30 AM PT
lemwalker, Re Message #266:
Perhaps an even more important question is, "Does it matter if NATO continues?"
269. BobaFett - March 28, 1999 - 8:32 AM PT
Pseudo, BTerry:
``In siding militarily with the ethnic Albanians, we have accomplished quite a lot, although of course none of it is what we intended to accomplish,'' said Ellen D. Comisso, a professor of East European history at the University of California at San Diego.
``We have generated sympathy for the Serbian dictator (Slobodan Milosevic) among even his most fervent internal political foes,'' she said. ``We have guaranteed that the NATO peacekeepers will never be `invited' in to keep the peace inside the Kosovar borders, meaning that they will soon have to fight their way in. And we have accelerated the Serbian atrocities against an utterly cut-off people.
``Most alarming of all, we have confirmed the deepest fears that the Russians - the possessors of many thousands of nuclear warheads - can harbor as to NATO's expansionism and belligerence.''
270. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 8:38 AM PT
This Ellen Commisso is absolutely right, especially with respect to the internal political situation. Idiots in Washington, London and Brussels are treating Serbia as though it were a one-party state, which it's not. It's not a democracy, either, but there has been substantial room for maneuver and opposition to Milosevic. Now that his country is united behind him, Milosevic is more powerful than ever.
Also, at this point, without the introduction of ground forces, Kosovo will be substantially depopulated soon enough, something which was far from fated to happen in the absence of this bombing campaign.
271. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:40 AM PT
BobaFett, Re Message #269:
That second point would be irrelevant if we still had an awesome ability to kick ass. But, unfortunately the "largest ever peacetime expansion" has come at great expense to our military. This is not a bad thing, per se. But, if these "hawkish doves" really want us to be the world's policemen, then they'd better be prepared to pay for it with cuts in their social programs.
272. BobaFett - March 28, 1999 - 8:43 AM PT
"But, if these "hawkish doves" really want us to be the world's policemen, then they'd better be prepared to pay for it with cuts in their social programs."
Clinton loves bombing and shooting missiles. A no-pain, no-cost solution for a no-pain, no-cost President.
The trouble is, of course, there has never been a no cost war.
So the question which must be asked is: Is this so vital to our interests that we are prepared to lose 2,000 - 5,000 men in combat?
If it's not, what the fuck are we doing there?
273. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:45 AM PT
I wonder how long it will be before someone who has exercised their "right" to *safely* serve in military, sues the government for damages sustained in combat.
274. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 8:47 AM PT
well, at this point, NATO is morally obligated to prevent any ethnic cleansing against Albanians that the bombing campaign has allowed to be initiated. I think ground forces will have to be sent in.
275. BobaFett - March 28, 1999 - 8:47 AM PT
Good question, BTerry. Maybe our servicemen can also sue the makers of Serbian arms and artillery for being "unreasonably dangerous" and not having safety locks and such.
276. BobaFett - March 28, 1999 - 8:49 AM PT
"well, at this point, NATO is morally obligated to prevent any ethnic cleansing against Albanians that the bombing campaign has allowed to be initiated. I think ground forces will have to be sent in."
You'd think this, wouldn't you? But you don't know our Pussy President. He doesn't know the meaning of "morally obligated."
The one good thing about this Jackass is that he's too much of a coward to risk losing the lives of ground troops in "an unpopular foreign adventrue, where our vital interests are not at stake, and where we have no definable exit strategy."
Bill Clinton learned the lessons of Vietnam:
Dodge the draft.
277. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:50 AM PT
BobaFett, Re Message #272:
"The trouble is, of course, there has never been a no cost war."
What does that have to do with anything? There has never been a "no cost" social program either. The key is to hide the details and attack anyone who criticizes your policy.
Why was it so wrong to pursue our energy interests in the Persion Gulf, but it's so right to intervene now? Does the fact that an interest is selfish make it wrong? Conversely, does that fact that an interest is selfless make it right?
278. arkymalarky - March 28, 1999 - 8:52 AM PT
It's so nice that two people of the mental caliber of Boba and BTerry can take a complex issue and simplify it for the better understanding of the rest of us.
And guys, you've made it as simple as it can possibly get.
279. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:53 AM PT
Pseudoerasmus, Re Message #274:
That's a scary thought. If these bombing campaigns serve only to erage the Serbians who then take out their anger on the Albanians, what indeed do we do? What if we flat out don't have the military capacity to do anything about it? Do we draft an army?
280. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:54 AM PT
arkymalarky, Re Message #278:
1, 2, 3, 4. We don't want your humanitarian war.
Make love not war, man.
281. AzureNW - March 28, 1999 - 8:56 AM PT
So far, every single person I've spoken directly to about the Serbs agrees they are among the vilest people on the planet, worse than Germans under Nazi rule, because they cheer the atrocities. Everyone in my family, everyone I work with, clerks in the supermarket, everyone I've spokent to hates the Serbs and would privately like to see them wiped out.
282. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:57 AM PT
I wonder if they outlawed firearm possession in Kosovo. I mean, was that the first thing Serbia did, outlaw civilian guns? If so, excellent strategy then.
283. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 8:58 AM PT
I really don't want this to degenerate into a discussion of American politics, especially in the presence of JadeGold and BTerry. (Aren't they the same people?) The stupidity of the campaign is not limited to Clinton, it's widespread in the West and NATO countries.
284. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 8:59 AM PT
AzureNW, Re Message #281:
Now, now, now. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, is there a hitherto unknown 2nd standard that applies here?
285. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 9:00 AM PT
Message #281
Your capacity to demonise whole peoples is simply amazing. When you find a subset of an ethnic group vile, you immediately transfer the hatred to the whole. You do this consistently, with Jews, Indians and others. I think it is YOU, Azure the individual, who should be wiped out.
286. jadeGOLD - March 28, 1999 - 9:03 AM PT
PE, your analyses are deeply flawed and short-sighted.
Do nothing, indeed.
287. BTerry - March 28, 1999 - 9:04 AM PT
Pseudoerasmus, Re Message #283:
There may indeed be more stupidity at work here, but do you think any bombing would have taken place if Clinton didn't initiate it?
288. jadeGOLD - March 28, 1999 - 9:07 AM PT
BTW, this NATO and US policy towards Kosovo is nothing new. It has been in place for about eight years.
289. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 9:13 AM PT
JadeGold: I said do nothing by way of military action.
"this NATO and US policy towards Kosovo is nothing new. It has been in place for about eight years."
Oh, yes, that's why virtually nothing was done in Bosnia.
You keep saying that my analyses are deeply flawed, although you say nothing specific. But who cares. I don't take you seriously anyway.
290. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
If anything is short-sighted, it is this bombing campaign. Does anyone really think bombing alone can stop ethnic cleansing now commenced in Kosovo? The shithead NATO spokesman is talking about taking out tanks and artillery. What difference would that make to ethnic cleansing??? And if ground forces are eventually introduced to save ethnic Albanians, what will NATO do when civil war comes to Macedonia?
291. arkymalarky - March 28, 1999 - 9:17 AM PT
BTerry Message #279, get a clue. The problem is not our military capacity, it's the potential European and international results of escalation which many fear is inevitable now that we've stepped in. And this is a NATO action and has the support of the other NATO allies.
I do think Jade's question about what we should have done once Milosevic refused to sign the agreement is a valid one. Of course, there might have been more room to maneuver had we not issued ultimatums to begin with and had allowed more flexibility in the negotiations. FWIW, I've still not decided how I feel about this action, because I don't fully understand what the other options were.
I have two Serbian exchange students whom I haven't posted anything about. We've had spring break this week, so I don't know what they will have to say Monday. I've spoken to them on the situation, but talks were still going on when we last had classes. They're aware of the perception that many have of them as terrorists (their word, not mine), but they feel wrt Kosovo that the reporting has been very one-sided. They make no defense of Milosevic.
Azure, I never remark on your statements such as Message #281, just as I don't remark on xkennedy's, but it would help you to remember that we're a world of individuals as well as one of diverse ethnic groups, and the stereotyping of the one you most emotionally link to would seem to be enough to prevent you from treating other groups in the same manner. I'm sure you're familiar with stereotypical statements which people have used to justify their prejudice against and mistreatment of American Indians. Your post is no different.
292. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 9:18 AM PT
Things would actually be better off if NATO had been doing nothing. Remember, Kosovo didn't produce thousands of refugees before this campaign.
293. Pseudoerasmus - March 28, 1999 - 9:23 AM PT
Look, Kosovo is NOT Bosnia. There was no ethnic cleansing going on before the bombing campaign began. What was happening was a counterinsurgency campaign by Serbian security forces against the Kosovo Liberation Army. This featured many many unjustifiable human rights abuses, but it is wrong to regard them as ethnic cleansing. But the United States is so haunted by Bosnia, so plagued with the desire to say "at least we're doing something this time" that it's willing to go blind on the basic differences between Bosnia and Kosovo. As I said earlier, Bosnia involved the killing or expulsion of Bosnian Muslims from Serb-majority areas in Bosnia. In Kosovo, the situation is quite different, with nearly every town and city and village Albanian-majority. Only the pretext of war could move Serbia to the audacity of depopulating Kosovo, a pretext which NATO has now conveniently provided.
294. AzureNW - March 28, 1999 - 9:25 AM PT
Pseudoerasmus
Re: Message #285
The point is, it isn't my opinion. I have not said Serbs are vile. I said every single person I have spoken to on the subject has expressed that opinion. Everyone I know despises the Serbs.
Obviously, none of the people I know personally are Serbs, but I would say they represent a wide spectrum of ordinary Americans.
295. AzureNW - March 28, 1999 - 9:29 AM PT
arkymalarky -
Re: Message #291
What I express in this post is a straight-forward statement of fact. xkennedy's views are not in the slightest unique. Why would you lie to yourself about that, or stone to death the messenger of such news?
What the hell is wrong with you literary genius' reading ability this morning?
296. pellenilsson - March 28, 1999 - 9:34 AM PT
Not long ago PE informed us that Pec is the Serb's most "holy place" in Kosovo. BBC reports organised, systematic ethnical cleansing there with people given five minutes to leave the place.
To those who advocate ground troops. Fine idea but how? They would have to be landed at Thessaloniki but Greece is oppposed to the whole operation and then march through Macedonia whose situation is already fragile.
297. arkymalarky - March 28, 1999 - 9:36 AM PT
I accept your explanation, Azure. As I said, my students know that a lot of people believe that about them. In the Bosnian crisis I had to fight feelings of anger myself, and that was a situation which I believed strongly at the time the US should have made an effort to change. I noticed also that my students have made no effort to defend Serbia's actions in Bosnia. All they said was that it was a religious war.
298. pellenilsson - March 28, 1999 - 9:38 AM PT
PE Message #259
"However, egged on by Albania and impatient for independence, a segment of the
ethnic Albanian population became radicalised and formed the KLA"
Can you substantiate that? I rather believe that it was the sudden availability of arms following the break-down of civil society in Albania that gave certain groups in Kosovo the possibility to convert ideas into action.
299. AzureNW - March 28, 1999 - 9:38 AM PT
Pseudoerasmus -
I'm really sick of you dredging up that crap you make up about me hating Jews and Indians. Get it fucking straight, will you? I know you can read.
I HATE ZIONISTS!
I HATE POLLUTION!
300. jexster - March 28, 1999 - 9:39 AM PT
Slobodan, they call you freedom,
You are loved by big and small,
So long as Slobo walks the land,
People will not be enslaved.