402. DanDillon - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:30 AM PT
Chicago-area fraygrants,
There's a lecture tonight at North Park University on "Media Image of Islam: Through Western Phobia to Understanding." It takes place at 7:30. 3225 W. Foster Ave. 773-244-5786
Looking forward to it myself.
403. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:41 AM PT
Well, well, well, Psocko's 399 is a well-reasoned and astute post. Must give credit where it is due.
Jenerator,
Thank you for responding. Kindly discuss Revelation with your pastor or whoever guides your Bible study, re-read your notes or whatever and get back to us with a proper answer.
404. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:46 AM PT
Pike,
"If the Palestinians had found it in them to at least keep a lid on it for a few months after the Rabin assassination, Peres would have won the elections - but they had to go and blow up buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in March and April of 1996, just before the elections, and Peres lost. Well - so did the Palestinians."
Psocko has already pointed this out but it's worth repeating: it is more than a little absurd to claim that the "Palestinians" act in a monolithic manner and equally absurd to imply that the "Palestinians" indulge in terrorist acts en masse. The fact is that a small, violent, fringe element is responsible for the acts you cite, just as a small, violent, fringe element was responsible for fostering the atmosphere that led to Rabin's assassination. I mean, can you say (without sounding like an idiot) that the Israelis killed Rabin? The answer is no, so why do you continue to insist on using such absurdly broad strokes when discussing the Palestinians and Arabs?
405. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:57 AM PT
"we were here long before the Arabs got here, and the Arabs know this, if only because they read the Koran. Of course, there's that new theory about the Palestinians being the Philistines, but that's crap."
Pike,
This "divine mandate" stuff is tired, hoary and absolute pap.
1) The Bible is not any kind of legal document, and has absolutely no relevance in international politics or jurisprudence. The constant reference to it by some Israelis is meaningless. Israel exists, that is all that matters. Trying to justify it by using ancient texts does get you brownie points from some uninformed Thumpers but only exasperates the rest of the world.
2) The "Jews" who live in Israel make up a totally multi-ethnic, multicolored, heterogeneous group. It's more than a little nonsensical to take Bene Israelis from India, Falasha from Ethipia, Russians, Yemenis and Brits etc, add them all up and claim that they belong to one tribe which is mandated (by that same Bible) to occupy land in the Middle East and worse, to boot out people who have been there for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.
406. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 7:04 AM PT
marjoribanks:
Hahahahaha! The same thought had passed my mind: If the "Palestinians" are to be held responsible en masse for individual acts of murder, then the entire Jewish people must be held responsible for Rabin's murder. Pike's stereotypical view on this subject seems pretty lame if you ask me.
407. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 7:07 AM PT
And all this Biblical stuff being used to justify Israel is so much eyewash. Who gives a hoot who lived where 20 zillion years ago? For pete's sake, Israel was originally slotted to be in Africa. It just happened that some English geezer opted for Palestine in 1948, and drew the map accordingly.
408. JebXXX - Nov. 16, 1998 - 7:12 AM PT
Marj:
Boy, when you get up, you're really alert. I surely do hope Pike had a good day at work.
409. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 7:18 AM PT
Well, as long as we're in whole hearted agreement here Psocko, let me say that the following passage from your 399 cuts to the heart of the matter.
"It has beaten back attacks from all sides, sometimes at the same moment. And it's nuclear armed. Yet this same state is frightened of a postage-stamp size, demilitarized state for the very people it dispossessed. Shame on the Israelis."
The reasons:
1) Israel's very culture and society is based on an ethic of frontierism. There needs to be a threat to keep the society focused (the theory goes). So, ordinary Israelis are taught this nonsense that they are surrounded by potential raving hordes who are biding their time until the Israelis drop their guard.
2) It really helps in fundraising, especially in America, to imply that the tiny Israeli state is in perpetual danger (so bust out those checkbooks).
3) The messianic minority realizes it needs to demonize the Arabs if their ridiculous plans to prepare for the messiah are to be completed.
4) The Palestinians are too disorganized, poor and scattered to successfully combat the image of them that Pike and others have.
410. envision - Nov. 16, 1998 - 8:10 AM PT
RustlePike: Did you see the item in Drudge Report from the London Sunday Times?
It says that Israel is working on a biological weapon that would harm Arabs but not Jews, according to Israel military and western intelligence sources. The weapon, targeting victims by ethnic origin, is seen as Israel's response to Iraq's threat of chemical and biological attacks.
In developing their "ethno-bomb", Israeli scientists are trying to exploit medical advances by identifying distinctive genes carried by some Arabs, then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus.
BTW, I had the impression you were "conservative." Irv says I'm wrong so I better start reading this thread to find out who you really are. (g)
I love Israel but I'm still angry with you guys for bombing our spy ship in 1967.
Now, that was a cover-up.
411. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 8:18 AM PT
envision,
Thank you for the kind words in GOP!
412. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:30 AM PT
Jeb, jkuzmak:
Sorry to disappoint. Abusive words like "dickhead" and one-line unsubstantiated putdowns like "X is a weirdo" are par for the course here. If I didn't use them once in a while, the other fraygrants would think I was a a weirdo and a dickhead!
I met Israel Shahak on a couple of opportunities when I was a journalist. He struck me as a one-man hyperradical left wing organization. Something like Noam Chomsky, minus the genius. I don't think he ever fit in to any organization - not even the most radical. I don't see articles by him published anywhere in the Israeli press.
I can't remember all the details I once knew about him, but he looks weird for one thing (I know, I know! Irrelevant and disgusting of me! Sorry!), and I think he writes letters obsessively to every possible government agency and newspaper, and is convinced he is always being hunted by the Shabak (he probably is... the weird part is that he seems to enjoy it tremendously). I could be misremembering, he may have written a great book and may be a fine man, I really don't know.
413. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:43 AM PT
envision:
I read about that Sunday Times piece. It was in the Israeli papers today too - quoting the Sunday Times. What can I say? Sounds fantastic (and gross) to me. The only thing lending it some credibility is MK Dedi Tzucker's reaction to it (he seems to think it's true), but it still seems far-fetched to me. If the papers know nothing about more conventional biological research being done in the Nes-Tziona research facility, how would they know about something as twisted (and seemingly stupid) as this? I'm putting that in the "yeah, right" shelf for the time being.
I'm neither Likud nor Labor. I like to pretend to myself I'm "above all that". Of course, no one ever is, really. I'm basically made of the stuff liberals are usually made of, but something happened along the way (radiation?) and I find myself basically agreeing with the Right on a lot of stuff nowadays.
414. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:45 AM PT
It is true that Jeb and perhaps others have unrealistic expectations. Pike has in fact cotributed mightily to this part of the Fray, it is far too much to expect some kind of compassionate superhuman.
In fact, this view is partly shared by those who want Israel to be unrealistically compassionate towards the Palestinians. I do not share this attitude.
However, Israel under the Netanyahoos is acting bizarre, and paranoid and messianic. This is a bad thing. I really really regret the day that Rabin was killed.
415. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:07 AM PT
Psocko:
"And all this Biblical stuff being used to justify Israel is so much eyewash. Who gives a hoot who lived where 20 zillion years ago? For pete's sake, Israel was originally slotted to be in Africa. It just happened that some English geezer opted for Palestine in 1948, and drew the map accordingly".
Call me a nut, but I've lived through a third of a century now, and a couple of millennia back doesn't seem that imaginary to me. The Bible has been proven time and again to be a great deal more reliable than one would expect as a historical source. It is the basis of my identity, my nationality and pride, despite the fact that I am secular and eat till I burst on Yom Kippur.
The Jews have remembered and longed for this country for 40 generations - and with good reason. I grew up in New Jersey, I felt what it was like to be called a "fucking Jew", and I'm damn fucking glad to be back here in my homeland. I swear to God I'd rather die than be a stranger again.
I have no idea who the "English geezer" you're talking about is. True, Herzl considered Uganda as a temporary refuge for the Jews (I think the word was "nachtheim" - a home for the night... I'm not 100% sure). *That* was a plan suggested by "some English geezer". But it was roundly rejected by the World Zionist Congress in 1903.
Everywhere in this country, there are archeological remains of the ancient Jewish state. There are places which still bear the old Biblical names. Despite your attempts to portray the Jews as an ethnic nonentity - there is a strong common ethnic bond between us. Ask any anti-Semite and he'll tell you: we're easy to spot. And guess what? The Palestinians resemble us. So I know we're back where we came from.
416. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:09 AM PT
(cont.)
There are people among us named Cohen and Katz: some of them, I'm sure, are descendants of the temple priests, or Kohanim. Many of those called Levy and Levin are descendants of the Levites. A woman I worked with was of Bulgarian-Jewish descent. Her last name was Kastiel. She was descended from a family that lived in Castilia, and was expelled from Spain in 1492. Is that a zillion years ago too? Where do you draw the line?
417. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:17 AM PT
I'm alienating my family with all this fraying, so one last point:
True, it was the Hamas that planted those bombs. But it was also Palestinians. I can't just shrug off my responsibility as an Israeli for stuff the settlers do, or what my army does. Why should the Palestinians not be held responsible for what the Hamas, a Palestinian organization, does?
I was just thinking, on my way home from work, what would happen if an Israeli group held parades of masked suicide bombers. If that group called for terrorist actions against civilians. If that group went and actually killed people. Man - they would all be behind lock and key for life within seconds. Believe you me. They wouldn't be allowed to exist anywhere except jail.
418. JebXXX - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:18 AM PT
Apologies.
Knew, as soon as I posted, that Pike would be too pasionate about the subject to end a conversation unless he knew exactly where it was headed. It's my responsibility to do my own research.
419. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:18 AM PT
Rustler,
I dig you.
Mr. Socko,
"And all this Biblical stuff being used to justify Israel is so
much eyewash. Who gives a hoot who lived where 20
zillion years ago?."
The Jews give a "hoot". Their Holy book identifies them as God's chosen people, and as a nation, to be set apart for Him. It is vitally important for them for both religious and political reasons to fulfil this role. It is God-ordained; I can definitely see WHY they care about what happens to their land. They have legitimate claim to it.
420. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:29 AM PT
Jenerator,
I'm surprised. here you said you had no opinion to state about the "Biblical" POV on Israel/Palestine and now I see post # 419.
Care to state your real beliefs?
Again, I promise to be gentle.
421. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:33 AM PT
Where did I state that I had no opinion? I have a lot of opinions! Honestly though, I'm not sure if I want to share them all in here. No offense, but you seem to look for opportunities to critize me, why provide new ones?
422. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:39 AM PT
Jenerator,
I have no desire to criticize you.
In my life in these USA, I have little occasion to speak with evangelical Christians. I would really like to hear from a typical one (you, I gather) about what they think about Jerusalem and the Israel/Palestine situation.
If it helps you towards offering us a post on what you have been taught about this issue I'll be happy to promise no negative comments on your testimony.
423. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:43 AM PT
Marj,
I really appreciate your kindness! I welcome the chance to speak with you without insults. I have a meeting in ten mintues though, so I will come back as soon as it's over.
424. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:44 AM PT
You know, I'm in wholehearted agreement with Pocko and Marzipranks about the messianism & the biblical stuff, and I very much support a Palestinian state, but there is also quite a bit of nonsense in Marzipranks's words in Message #409.
Ethic of frontierism? Need a threat to keep the society focused? Are you insane? Israel's encirclement has been VERY REAL. The threat to its existence has been VERY REAL. There is a psychology of siege among Israelis, reinforced by five wars, innumerable terrorist attacks, international isolation, and 40 years of literal encirclement by hostile states. So even if its attitude toward a potential Palestinian state is paranoid, to dismiss the paranoia as an "ethic of frontierism", or demonisation, or a cynical fabrication for fundraising purposes is gross insensitivity to Israel's experience. Now, I don't much care about being insensitive, but being that certainly won't mollify the Israeli position. The dismissal of its legitimate security concerns the way Marzipranks is only going to encourage the last-ditchers in the Israeli government.
(Why do I get the feeling that Marzipranks, had he been sentient in the 1970s, might have been the sort of pinko to plead greater understanding" for the Soviet Union on accounts of its history of encirclement? Given the double standard he maintains about Third World dicatators, it wouldn't surprise me.)
425. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:51 AM PT
Pseuder,
Are you merely going to "throw bombs" or are you going to sit around here for a bit to discuss the issues involved.
Your message above is a large red herring, quite tastily accompanied with spicy rhetoric.
426. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:57 AM PT
BTW, I was remarkably sentient in the 70's.
(At least I remember 1978 very well, after all that's the year I turnd 10).
427. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:59 AM PT
Message #425
1) Do you deny that Israel was literally encircled and isolated in the first 40 years of its history?
2) Do you deny that this encirclement largely accounts for the paranoia today?
If you don't deny them, I don't see why you dismissed the paranoia as cynically as you did in Message #409.
"...are you going to sit around here for a bit to discuss the issues involved."
Except for RP's discussion of local Israeli politics, unobtainable from the usual media sources, I have found this thread wholly uninteresting. None of the other posts has been worth reading, really. And I haven't seen any "issues" on the table to discuss.
428. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:06 AM PT
Message #425
Do you often call attention to your clichés by putting quotation marks around them? Suppose someone worte:
Marzipranks decided to "kill two birds with one stone".
Isn't that a bit vulgar? Please refrain from this atrocious, subliterate habit in the future.
429. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:08 AM PT
Pseuder, deal sheltered Pseuder,
I agree that Israel faced some real threats in the years following its establsihment. I also think that these threats compelled a certain degree of paranoia about the Israeli surroundings.
Today, there are only paper tigers "threatening" Israel. What is more, these fabrications are being used to delay the Oslo peace process. There is nothing cynical about assessing the "threats" to Israel and finding them impotent.
If you consider discussion of this boring, that is your right.
430. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:10 AM PT
Pseuder, you silly young fellow,
You are the person who accused another (cllrdr) of bomb-throwing in another thread.
I used quotes to demonstrate irony.
431. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:13 AM PT
Please ignore the typos, I'm trying to talk on the phone at the same time.
432. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:14 AM PT
Marj,
I'm still waiting for a certain person in order to have the meeting. Do you want me to share my opinions about the nation of Israel from a Biblical perspective or simply my opinion on what's happening now?
433. harr0004 - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:15 AM PT
marjoribanks,
If you are looking for an Evangelical Chriistian POV, bloodnfire has also mentioned belonging to that order.
Pseudo,
You are correct not "to dismiss the paranoia as an "ethic of frontierism", or demonisation". While I believe that Israel is no longer in constant mortal danger, it's fears are based on very real and historically recent events. Many people who say the powers that be are just looking for a boogy man to keep the patriotism up are relying too heavily on the American model. While the States has no truly dangerous threat to it's existence Israel is on a much more even playing field with it's enemies.
Also, can anyone give me an estimate on the world Jewish population?
I heard a quote on Politically Incorrect the other night of 13 million but that seems pretty low.
434. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:16 AM PT
Message #429
"Today, there are only paper tigers 'threatening' Israel. What is more, these fabrications are being used to delay the Oslo peace process."
S I G H
Yes, I agree that Israel's security situation has improved immeasurably in the last 10-15 years. But you are missing the point. The psychology of siege was nurtured over decades of insecurity and encirclement. It isn't necessarily rational, but it is nonetheless a REALITY which must be dealt with. For you to suggest that just because most of Israel's enemies have fallen off, the Israelis should simply do away with their psychology, as a snake might slough off its skin, represents a childish divorce from reality.
Of course, if the situation were reversed, you'd be pleading in your seat for sensitivity to the insecurity of Palestinians until you got hemerrhoids.
"I agree that Israel faced some real threats in the years following its establsihment."
Israel faced real threats its to existence well into the 1980s.
What is "deal-sheltered"?
435. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:18 AM PT
Message #430
There is nothing wrong with bomb-throwing -- just your use of quotation marks around the term. And you are incapable of registering irony in prose. Forget about it.
436. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:20 AM PT
As far as I can tell, Cellardweller says nothing of any substance in any thread, except for the Movies thread.
437. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:22 AM PT
"Of course, if the situation were reversed, you'd be pleading in your seat for sensitivity to the insecurity of Palestinians until you got hemerrhoids."
Don't be ridiculous.
The fact is that you are overcompensating, acting like some kind of shrill voice for an antiquated mindset. Nation-states do not sit around genially while their citizens change their minds gradually, rather, change is thrust upon them.
It'd be nice if you weren't posting exclusively from some outdated textbook .
438. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:28 AM PT
Message #437
"The fact is that you are overcompensating, acting like some kind of shrill voice for an antiquated mindset."
How am I being shrill? How is my mindset antiquated? Didn't I say I support the existence of a Palestinian state? Have I come out against Oslo?
ALL I DID SAY was that your cynical dismissal of Israeli insecurity shows a certain callow stupidity & double standard.
"Nation-states do not sit around genially while their citizens change their minds gradually, rather, change is thrust upon them."
Perhaps. Perhaps not. It seems Israel has been able to sit around. Who is going to thrust change upon them?
439. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:45 AM PT
Pseuder,
Double standard? I think it is you who is parroting that.
"Perhaps. Perhaps not. It seems Israel has been able to sit around. Who is going to thrust change upon them?"
I think the reality will create change in Israeli policy unless the messianic minority is allowed to take precedence.
440. marjoribanks - Nov. 16, 1998 - 11:46 AM PT
Pseuder,
Your message # 424 is shrill.
441. bloodnfire - Nov. 16, 1998 - 2:57 PM PT
JKUZMAK. Your Message #400. I have never heard of anyone named 'Shahak', and certainly have never criticized him [or her ?]. I make it a point not to make personal attacks upon any fellow Fraygrant. Or anyone else, for that matter.
442. bobsr61 - Nov. 16, 1998 - 3:07 PM PT
It seems to me that there is a third side in this arguement.Both sides are killing each other. This arguement goes back in history to two sons that really hated each other and since they were sons to a prophet ,it goes on an on.The question is how do you get them to love each other as family .You know like there was a long time ago in this country .Now there's a thread . Take it and run.
443. jkuzmak - Nov. 16, 1998 - 3:20 PM PT
blood'n:
Sorry, I misread the screen. I read a reply to you from Pike as a statement from you. I shall not make the same careless mistake again.
444. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 3:58 PM PT
Message #415, Pike:
"The Bible has been proven time and again to be a great deal more reliable than one would expect as a historical source."
I guess that depends on the point where one begins the quest for historical reliability.
"It is the basis of my identity, my nationality and pride, despite the fact that I am secular and eat till I burst on Yom Kippur."
Well, you're certainly not the secularist you've often portrayed yourself as being.
"The Jews have remembered and longed for this country for 40 generations - and with good reason."
I totally dispute this. My grandmother lived for a while in British Palestine -- en route from South Africa to Britain -- but aside from that, I can't think of the subject being of the slightest moment to any of my Jewish family members. Speaking personally, I find Israel to be an important and interesting subject -- although less so than what's it's been in the past -- but in no way has it seemed of any personal existential moment.
"I grew up in New Jersey, I felt what it was like to be called a 'fucking Jew,' and I'm damn fucking glad to be back here in my homeland."
With respect, I think you're making a lot out of a pretty small thing. Everybody gets insulted, especially when they're young. Does this say anything profound about America, the most philosemitic nation on earth? I don't think so.
"I swear to God I'd rather die than be a stranger again."
Well, you're living in the only nation on earth where an elected Jewish prime minister has ever been murdered while in office. Alas, the religion of his killer temporarily escapes me... Welcome to the "homeland."
445. bloodnfire - Nov. 16, 1998 - 3:59 PM PT
Jkjuzmak. No problem, it's easy to get confused in 'The Fray'. That's part of the fun !!
Bobsr61. Great question! How do we get two factions who've hated each other for millenia to love each other ? I quoted a famous old Jew named Saul of Tarsus in my Message #391 . I notice RustlerPike completely ignored Saul's point regarding 'circumcised hearts' and picked up instead upon whether or not it was a real unicorn.
On the other hand, in the very next post, my brother Mr. Socko was so moved by the point, that all he could murmer was...'Oh Brother!" :-)
Circumcised hearts love each other Bobsr61. It's love being poured through the heart that 'circumcises' it. [Romans 5:5] Thump! Thump!
446. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 4:12 PM PT
Message #415, Pike:
"I have no idea who the 'English geezer' you're talking about is."
Neither do I. The image was of one of the gents who drew up today's Mideastern map. I mean, hasn't it ever struck you as being a touch significant that most border lines in the region are dead straight.
"Herzl considered Uganda as a temporary refuge for the Jews (I think the word was "nachtheim" - a home for the night... I'm not 100% sure).
Herzl didn't give a shit about living in Jerusalem.
"Everywhere in this country, there are archeological remains of the ancient Jewish state. There are places which still bear the old Biblical names."
Everywhere in California there are Mexican place names. So what? It's the United States now, not Mexico. Most New Zealand place names are in Maori (itself an imported language from Hawaii). Again, so what? Your sentiment remind me of the old cliche about history: there's no future in it. Especially where you live.
"Despite your attempts to portray the Jews as an ethnic nonentity - there is a strong common ethnic bond between us."
I've never said any such thing.
"Ask any anti-Semite and he'll tell you: we're easy to spot.
Hmmmm.
"And guess what? The Palestinians resemble us. So I know we're back where we came from."
So why, then, are the Palestinians -- who resemble "us" -- to be forever denied their own tinny little state? Why should a 40th generation diaspora Jew enjoy greater Mideastern citizenship rights than some guy in Jericho whose family has been tending camels there for the past 2,000 years?
447. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 4:13 PM PT
It must come as a rude shock to the likes of Pike and marjoribanks that some of us -- including PE, I suspect -- really don't spend out lives pathetically gazing in the ethnic mirror.
448. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:19 PM PT
Marj,
Thanks for being patient! The reason why I think that the Jews have legitimate claim for Israel is because of what the Bible says about it. The Old Testament is clear that the promised land is for the children of Israel. Gen 12:7 And the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." (this land is Caanan, which is the site of modern day Israel. see v. 5)See also Gen 13:14 where God clearly gives the land to Abram, not to Lot. Genesis Abram was Lot's uncle. Lot fathered Moab and Ammon by his daughters following the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah (Gen 19:36-38.) Today, the Moabites and Ammonites are the Arabs living east of the Jordon river, i.e. in Jordan (whose capital is Ammon!)
Abram had a son, Ishmael, by the servant Hagar, because he didn't wait for God to fulfil his promise to give him a son. This son Ishmael is not Abram's heir (Gen 15:4) but Isaac, who Abram, now Abraham had with Sarah (Gen 21:12).
Then Isaac had twin sons, Esau and Jacob. Jacob got the blessing from Isaac: "May peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be master of your brothers, and may your mother's sons bown down to you. Cursed by those who curse you, and blessed by those who bless you." (Gen 27:29).
Then the angel of the Lord renamed Jacob to be Israel (Gen 32:28). Then God says: "The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac I will give it to you." Gen 35:12.
When Moses leads the children of Israel out of Egypt and back to the land of Caanan, about 400 years later, the descendants of Esau make trouble for them and will not let them pass through their land on the way to Caanan. There are numerous verses where God makes it clear that Caanan is for the children of Israel, and He, the Lord, is going to drive out the other tribes. (cont.)
449. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:19 PM PT
See for example Exodus 23:23, and 23:31, and of course the entire book of Joshua is about the conquest of the land. See also Numbers 33:50-53. The "Palestinians" were to get out of the promised land and live east of the Jordan.
That's the Biblical perspective on it!
450. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:37 PM PT
Message #448 & Message #449 are ridiculous. Even if one accepted Biblical authority, the land in question is far, far greater than the one Israel occupies today.
No, the real basis of evangelical Christian mania for Israel is to be found in the more obscure sections of the New Testament books, specifically Revelation, a dense tract written in highly metaphorical language for the early Christian inhabitants of Rome. It's highly doubtful whether Jenerator even understands the work, let alone has the ability to explain it. In any event, it really doesn't help a whit in explaining and understanding Israel today.
451. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:55 PM PT
Jenerator is a walking, breathing (and good-looking) case for censorship.
452. AzureNW - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:58 PM PT
Most of the problems in the Middle East would disappear if the US stopped sending money to Israel, because Isreal would disappear. I hate being forced to support that seething racist mess. I hate having something like Israel in my world, and I bitterly resent having to pay for it.
Did you get a look at that bunch of morons on CNN the last time a bomb blew in a Jerusalem market place? Just a swarm of bumbling morons in various military style uniforms bumping into eachother.
453. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:02 PM PT
AzureNW (Message #452)
Don't be silly. If the U.S. stopped subsidising Israel, it would only be strengthened, in my opinion, because it would then be forced to restructure & reform its economy even more than it has in the last 10 years.
By the way, did anyone catch the excellent article in The New Republic a few weeks ago about the impending bankruptcy of the oil-rich Arab states? Hahahahaha. Pretty soon, even Saudi Arabia will have a catastrophic economic crisis.
454. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:03 PM PT
Arab countries, basketcases from Morrocco to the Gulf. How amusing!
455. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:11 PM PT
Geez guys, why are you being so mean about everything? Marj askjed for the Biblical explanation regarding my opinion of Jewish occupation of Israel, and I gave it. MrSocko, you claim to be a Christian, yet I can honestly say that I've never seen you offer ONE Biblical explanation of anything, EVER. If you have a Bible, you sure don't seem to use it in here. So, why are you so harsh with those who do? Btw, as I have said to Marj and others, yes, I agree that the book of Revelation is difficult to interpret, but you haven't seen me quote from it in here. So what's the fuss about?
Also,
450. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:37 PM PT
Message #448 & Message #449 are ridiculous. Even if one accepted
Biblical authority, the land in question is far, far greater than the one
Israel occupies today."
For you to say this shows ignorance with regards to the beliefs of the Jewish people in Israel. Plenty of them take the Pentateuch quite seriously.
456. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:11 PM PT
Israel's per capita GDP (adjusted for purchasing power) is higher than South Korea's (a member of the OECD) and about the same as New Zealand's. It's definitely in the upper ranks of developing countries (or lower ranks of developed countrise, depending on how you look at it) and I'm convinced it will be asked to join the OECD (the rich countries' club) if and when the Palestine situation is resolved. Given its extremely well educated & technically competent populace (fortified by those Jews from the ex-Soviet Union), about the only thing keeping Israel down economically is its half-hearted effort at economic reform.
457. AzureNW - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:14 PM PT
PseudoErasmus -
Do you know whether the U.S. is still sending $3 billion in foreign aid to Israel each year?
458. bloodnfire - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:15 PM PT
Hi Jen. Beloved Fellowthumper. It's important to remember that...'The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit'. Don't waste your fingertips.....' :-)
459. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:16 PM PT
Oh, the article on the impending bankruptcy and economic crisis in the oil-rich countries of the Persian Gulf is Patrick Clawson, "Cheap Sheikh: Hard Times in the Persian Gulf", the New Republic, 26 October 1998.
460. Jenerator - Nov. 16, 1998 - 6:17 PM PT
Bloodnfire, thank you for the scripture and the sweet sentiment.:)
461. envision - Nov. 16, 1998 - 8:07 PM PT
Jen: What a coincidence. Just this evening I was reading children Bible stories to my six-year-old twins. One of the stories was about Isaac/Rebekah and their twin boys--Esau and Jacob.
My daughter was delighted in the story until she realized that Isaac's twins were both boys. She wouldn't accept that and became furious. My other twin, a boy, was as happy as a clam to know this fact, especially because it was getting his sister p.o.ed at her dad.
Both were taken in by the birthright issue and how Esau had "sold his" for dinner. "So Esau traded his right to lead his family and all he got was a bowl of stew?" Maureen asked me.
A good meal is hard to find!
God bless you, sister.
462. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:21 PM PT
Psocko:
"I mean, hasn't it ever struck you as being a touch significant that most border lines in the region are dead straight".
Countries are one thing, borders are another. There's a glitch somewhere in the border between Saudi Arabia and Jordan which is known as "Winston's Hiccough" - supposedly, the border was drawn by Churchill after a particularly good meal at the King David Hotel...
463. Philistine - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:27 PM PT
I suspect Psocko will be very surprised to hear that he claims to be a Christian.
464. RustlerPike - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:31 PM PT
Psocks:
"...you're living in the only nation on earth where an elected Jewish prime minister has ever been murdered while in office. Alas, the religion of his killer temporarily escapes me... Welcome to the "homeland.""
Well yeah, but I'm also living in the only nation on earth where an elected Jewish prime minister has ever farted while in office (in this century at least). So?
As for the Biblical Eretz Yisrael being bigger than present day Israel: it's not *that* much bigger, and besides - so???
More Jewish names that, like Katz, are acronyms (Katz: Kohen tzedek): Segal (*Sgan laleviyim* - deputy to the Levites), and Sachs, or Zaks (*zera kodesh* - "holy seed", referring to descendants of King David. So I was told, anyway).
I'll be sure to post some more on Israeli politics if that's what it takes to keep Pe interested.
465. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:49 PM PT
Pike, --
You didn't really answer any of my points.
Philistine, --
Um ... not sure I catch the drift of your post.
466. Philistine - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:51 PM PT
I was responding to something Jen said up above. Did you ever claim to be a Christian?
467. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:56 PM PT
Pithistine:
Oh, sorry. Now I see it. Well, what can I say? I guess Jenerator is one of these lasses who thinks that anybody with the remotest knowledge of the New Testamant must be a Christian. Still, there's a kind of weird logic to the assumption, which I kind of share: I myself tend to assume that people who don't know how to read the Christian Bible are probably themselves Christian.
468. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 9:59 PM PT
Jenerator: For the record, I am not a Christian. I'm an utterly secularized, assimilated Jew, with a strong interest in a number of early-century Christian writers (Eliot, Chesterton, Belloc, Simone Weil) and the AV Bible. I also enjoy and have read most of William Barclay's NT commentaries.
469. Philistine - Nov. 16, 1998 - 10:00 PM PT
Didn't think so, Sox. Well, back to lurking.
470. marjoribanks - Nov. 17, 1998 - 6:37 AM PT
Psocko,
Your message 447 is gratuitous, and (unlike the rest of your recent posts) absolute nonsense.
471. Jenerator - Nov. 17, 1998 - 7:55 AM PT
Mr.Socko,
Wow, when did you convert to Judaism? Last you told me (in the now defunct religion thread) you were a Catholic. So, why are you changing your tune and insulting me for things YOU said about yourself?
472. Jenerator - Nov. 17, 1998 - 8:01 AM PT
Also,
"For the record, I am not a Christian. I'm an utterly secularized,
assimilated Jew"
Is that code for atheist and Jewish in name only?
"..., with a strong interest in a number of early-century
Christian writers (Eliot, Chesterton, Belloc, Simone Weil)"
I'm not familiar with them. I'm more familiar with early-century theologians/apologists...Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, etc.
" and the AV
Bible. I also enjoy and have read most of William Barclay's NT
commentaries."
That's great. I'm currently reading five separate commentaries on books of the New Testament, in addition to studying the actuals books from the NT from the NIV, RSV, and KJV versions. Happy reading Mr. Socko and enjoy your afternoon.
473. marjoribanks - Nov. 17, 1998 - 9:25 AM PT
Check this out.
474. RustlerPike - Nov. 17, 1998 - 11:17 AM PT
Azure:
"Did you get a look at that bunch of morons on CNN the last time a bomb blew in a Jerusalem market place? Just a swarm of bumbling morons in various military style uniforms bumping into each other".
Well - you've convinced me. People who have just experienced a car bombing had better be calm and collected, and wear their Shabat clothes for the cameras, if they're ever going to get an allowance from you, o sharp one! And the "military style" uniforms were probably either military uniforms, or police uniforms.
475. RustlerPike - Nov. 17, 1998 - 11:28 AM PT
Three soldiers who were killed by Hizballah in Lebanon were buried today. There is an ongoing war of attrition with Syrian and Iranian-backed guerilla armies in Lebanon - but I guess that's another bogeyman. And I know, don't tell me - they're freedom fighters and if we just pull out of Lebanon, everything will be hunky-dory.
Jeez, I'm glad Begin didn't give a shit what people said, and bombed Saddam's nuclear reactor in 1981! What did you guys think of that action, Psock and marj? Paranoia?
476. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 11:50 AM PT
RustlerPike -
I've seen emergencies of various kinds before, but when I watched that tv news story a few weeks ago, the scene was so striking and revealing, I made notes on my observations thinking I might post some caustic remarks about it here. The place was swarming with confused people in para-military uniforms literally bumping into one another, jostling, unable to even move forward. Anyone injured and waiting for help in that mob would have been in serious trouble. It was obvious everyone there was suited up to be part of the action, but no one had bothered with even the most trivial of planning. Everyone was shouting. No one was remotely in charge. Everyone looked completely self-absorbed in strutting around in their uniforms and they looked very stupid pretending to be useful. I thought, wow, that's just what I would expect Israelis to look like.
477. jebXXX - Nov. 17, 1998 - 12:41 PM PT
re:476
Oh, my God!!!
478. MrSocko - Nov. 17, 1998 - 3:27 PM PT
Jenerator, Message #471:
Lady, I never told you any such thing. I've never converted to Judaism. Don't even much like the religion. I guess you're confusing me with marjoribanks, who is a Catholic. Or maybe you're mad. That's probably it.
479. MrSocko - Nov. 17, 1998 - 3:47 PM PT
Pike, --
I thought it was a good idea for Israel to bomb the nuclear reactor in Iraq. I also support the security zone (which I've visited) in Lebanon. These issues are much more clear cut. Lebanon is basically a housepet of Syria's, so if the Israelis need to have a buffer zone, then so be it.
Azure
Your description sounds more like South-Central LA circa April 1992 to me.
480. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 17, 1998 - 3:57 PM PT
Azure (Message #476)
That is such unbelievable stupidity. Your prejudice and bigotry apparently know no bounds.
481. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:00 PM PT
First, it was disdain for the "Hindus" who spend their lives shitting into the Ganges. Now, it's mockery at the confusion and chaos after a bombing. Once Azure has honed in on a people she doesn't like for some strange hallucinatory reason, her arsenal of ignorance fortified by bigotry is unstoppable.
482. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:01 PM PT
Jenerator and Azure are two of a kind. I'm too amazed for words that such people can exist.
483. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:06 PM PT
What. I made an honest observation.
Am I expected to pretend to like Israelis if I don't?
484. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:07 PM PT
Screw Israelis. I *don't* like them, in general. Some of them I despise.
485. jebXXX - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:34 PM PT
re: #476
I fear suggesting this, but...
If that's the reaction to film of a bombing on TV news, what must the writer view for entertainment? Snuff films? (And I'm not joking.)
486. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:41 PM PT
There wasn't any bombing shown in the tv footage I mentioned. It was live television from the marketplace scene two or three hours following the bombing. The body language and facial expressions were unmistakable. I know what I saw. It was a bunch of uniformed jackasses strutting around, bumping into eachother.
487. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:46 PM PT
It doesn't take any prejudice whatsoever to dislike Israel. It's very, very easy to dislike Israel and Isrealis stricly on the basis of what they say and do.
488. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:48 PM PT
It doesn't take any prejudice whatsoever to dislike Israel. It's very, very easy to dislike Israel and Isrealis stricly on the basis of what they say and do.
All the more because I have to suffer for it. And pay for it, directly and indirectly. To hell with them and their God-approved racism.
489. jebXXX - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:53 PM PT
And of the 2-yr. old child who doesn't even know she's an Israeli?
490. jkuzmak - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:55 PM PT
Pike:
Re: Shahak
It is often wise to listen to those bent over little trolls with bulging eyes and an unusual amount of energy who exist at the fringes of society. Never seen the man, just guessing at the type. "Weird" didn't you say? I get this picture from reading Shahak and your correspondence. Those Jews, as opposed to Israelis, who own the big dogs, the heavy machine guns and described by you as the scum of the earth, or perhaps it was the scum of Israeli society, are a double edged sword, to be used by the government as a force against the Palestinians and also as a threat to Israelis who go against the right wing government actions. . On a personal level you are afraid of those guys , aren't you? Let us not forget that a useful definition of "politics" is "dominion and control over other men." If you imagine the government of Israel as a circle,….. government of the USA,….. doesn't matter,…… any government; the government seeks to control both what is inside the circle, its domestic population in all its variety, and what is outside. What we don't realize is how often our governments "play off' the inside of the circle against the outside so that "they" may remain in power. Outside are either legitimate threats or dreams of conquest. Shahak would argue that as religious fanaticism(including dreams of conquest), already exerting quite an influence on Isreali policy, grows in strength, that the decisions that Israel makes will become less and less rational. The "they" is your ultra orthodox rabbis. From what you have said, Shahak has not appeared in the press for a while. Suspicious that such a loudmouth would have nothing to say about Wye. On a lighter note: we must revere our little troll-like men. After all, Albert Einstein spent his days wondering what it would be like to ride on a beam of light. And how about that Hawking fellow. But all that physics stuff i
491. jkuzmak - Nov. 17, 1998 - 4:58 PM PT
But all that physics stuff is in a state of diminishing returns. We shall have to keep our eyes open for other little trolls walking other paths. Best regards.
P.S. Socko made a good point concerning bullying that you endured during your NJ childhood. For God sakes, man, we all endured bullying. Leave it to a Jew to believe that because the bullys called him a Jew he has experienced antisemitism. Bullys hook onto whatever slight deviation from the norm that they can discern. You might look to those fellows with the dogs and machine guns and perceive them for what they are. Once again, best regards.
492. jebXXX - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:12 PM PT
jkuzmak:
Are you Shahak?
493. KurtMondaugen - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:23 PM PT
I'm tempted to say that #488 could very well be the most jaw-dropping and astonishing things I've read in the Fray, but I fear that might give the wrong impression.
494. jkuzmak - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:30 PM PT
Jebex: I am not Shahak. His book is one of many in my Rabinical library.
495. jebXXX - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:33 PM PT
jkuzmak:
But you are a writer. Aren't you?
496. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:37 PM PT
Did anyone else hear Bill Clinton say on Sunday morning, Nov. 15, that the reason Iraq must be brought into total submission is to protect Israel?
497. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:43 PM PT
That whole news conference televised at 11am EST anouncing that the bombing of Iraq had been delayed, including statements by Cohen, was quite a bit more informative than the sound bites from it I saw later. As I was watching, I thought about scribbling down some quotes. But it probably wouldn't make any difference.
498. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:45 PM PT
No, that was Saturday, wasn't it? Kippers and eggs for breakfast after the news.
499. AzureNW - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:47 PM PT
They mentioned a pricetag for this *latest* military buildup in the Persian Gulf that was in the billions.
500. jkuzmak - Nov. 17, 1998 - 6:19 PM PT
Azure's comments are not off the wall. Though she may be expressing her feelings in too general a way. Let us take those settlers in Hebron, and the standard form of a Jewish settlement. I base what follows on a Frontline show that I saw a number of years ago. Many Americans, I am sure, envision the area where the Jews are settling as some kind of mixture of Arab and Jewish communities, but this is not the case. Where there is an Arab community the Jews pull right up to and into it. It is those fellows with the dogs and the heavy machine guns who are doing the pulling. Meant to frighten the Arabs and make lives intolerable. You, my friends, would not want these schmucks living in your neighborhood. Clearly, the Israeli Government favors an aggressive policy of complete expulsion. Begin has been mentioned by Pike in a recent posting. I believe it was Begin who stated Isreali policy toward its neigbors most clearly. He said something like "we will negotiate from now to kingdom come, and while we negotiate we will take land and build settlements." (These aren't close to his words, but that is the idea.) There are many bad things going on over in the middle east, and, according to Shahak, a significant portion of them have their impetus within the government of Israel.