302. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:22 AM PT
Really, old bean, you do come out with the silliest nonsense sometimes.
303. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:24 AM PT
Piffle!
304. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:26 AM PT
Psocko,
One would think that a codger prone to using "old bean" and "piffle" would hesitate before labelling anothers contributions "the silliest nonsense."
305. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:30 AM PT
Jackanapes! You still haven't answered my question: How does a compound improve an insult?
306. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:35 AM PT
Huree Jamset Ram Singh inhabits a lazaretto for the rhetorically challenged.
307. envision - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:35 AM PT
majoribanks: I'm glad I found you.
I want to thank you for writing the complete lyrics of Dylan's "Ballad of a Thin Man" last week in the Lists thread. You got me singing the song while I was reading the poem.
You're right, it should have been on my list.
Fifteen minutes after I read your post, the entire thread was gone. I felt bad having put some work into putting my list together. Poor timing.
I'm just happy to be alive at the same time as Bobby Zimmerman.
308. CalGal - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:36 AM PT
Socko is, of course, forgetting to mention that his great good fortune in the US was not limited to looking at the Wye agreement close-up.
309. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:41 AM PT
Psocko,
See 'Do the Right Thing'. You turkey-talking Brit-loving spicy-food-shit-talking Pet Shop Boys-listening crackpot
310. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:43 AM PT
Envision,
I grew up literally listening to Dylan songs from the cradle. Yours was an excellent list.
311. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 4:13 PM PT
"You turkey-talking Brit-loving spicy-food-shit-talking Pet Shop Boys-listening crackpot."
Upon my word, boy! I am shocked. Just shocked. To describe subcontinental fare as "spicy-food-shit" is not only gravely offensive but suggests profound cultural ignorance on your part. And while it's true that the best South Asian dishes "sing," it's the height of absurdity to claim that they talk. Such effrontery! I'm shocked!
312. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 4:16 PM PT
Envision:
Pay no attention to Huree Jamset Ram Singh's claims about listening to Bob Dylan. He actually knows very little about Zimmerman, and I can prove it, if you're interested.
CalGal:
Yes indeed.
313. CalGal - Nov. 8, 1998 - 4:22 PM PT
Socko,
I was referring, of course, to your good fortune in meeting Hafsat Abiola.
314. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 4:24 PM PT
... And the still-beautiful Bianca Jagger.
315. CalGal - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:10 PM PT
....to say nothing of the doorman at the Fairmont.
316. jmnycrkit - Nov. 8, 1998 - 9:09 PM PT
Isreal should declare the Gaza Strip a Palestinian state and warn Jewish settlers there to prepare. Then annex the West Bank, but use a cooperative means to rule. Use closing down the Gaza's economy as the stick to make this work. Joint rule in certain areas of the Bank.
317. RustlerPike - Nov. 8, 1998 - 10:07 PM PT
pt:
I haven't forgotten Message #287, it's just that our municipal elections are tomorrow and I'll have a lot more time afterwards. Please everyone, cross your fingers for Dubi Sandrov to trounce Moti Bloch! We deserve a good man at the head of Katzir-Kharish! Bloch is a corrupt dictator!
Wrt my wife, she's a Kikuyu from Kenya and you can see her here, on my website. I posted this link a few days ago but I don't think anyone followed it. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough that it was a link to MY WEBSITE with pictures of ME AND MY FAMILY!!!
Tnu rov la-ish hatov!
Tnu rov le-Dubi Sandrov!
318. MrSocko - Nov. 9, 1998 - 3:04 AM PT
Sweet pix, Pike. As you will appreciate, I misidentified your wife as an Ethiopian not, as Huree Jamset Ram Singh insisted, out of any confusion on my part when it comes to African nations but simply because I thought she was among the *olim* of 1991.
319. Adrianne - Nov. 9, 1998 - 3:08 AM PT
RP
OK, OK, so you have an exceptionally beautiful family.
You're still WRONG! (on virtually everything, tee-hee)
320. marjoribanks - Nov. 9, 1998 - 6:47 AM PT
Pike,
Beautiful children.
Lovely wife.
You are a fortunate man.
321. marjoribanks - Nov. 9, 1998 - 6:48 AM PT
Post # 312.
Sigh, okay Psocko, prove it then.
322. MrSocko - Nov. 9, 1998 - 2:45 PM PT
See the Music thread...
323. ptboya - Nov. 9, 1998 - 8:48 PM PT
Nice pics pike…
And much nachus in the election you spoke of.
324. RustlerPike - Nov. 11, 1998 - 7:28 AM PT
Thanks everybody, and hey - we won the elections!!! Yee-haw!!! Moti Bloch was a jerk and deserved to go home. Most of us are pretty sure he and his close circle in the council were corrupt as well, but we never had any proof. They just seemed to get too rich, too fast, for people on measly government salaries. We'll have to see what we dig up now, when we enter the council. What secrets do the hard disks hold?
Poor Bloch. He invested a great deal of money in the campaign, and he won't get any of it back: campaign finance laws here are such that only the winner of the elections gets to have his election bill covered through a government subsidy of some sort. I wonder why that is... probably so people in power won't owe money to other people. Is there any such law in other countries?
We won by about 75 votes out of about 1000: a 7 to 8 percent margin. I still can't believe it: the good guys won! All of Bloch's lies, promises, bribes and threats couldn't get him a majority! Hah!
325. RustlerPike - Nov. 11, 1998 - 7:42 AM PT
The election process itself was great in that we got to know each other much better. I made a couple of good friends I wouldn't have even gotten to know otherwise. Some people I had previously not gotten along with became buddies, just because we were all fighting for a common cause.
Bloch was a Likud candidate, though he claimed he was independent. Sandrov was independent, and joined forces with Ya'akov 'Amor, a local activist with backing from a party called The Third Way. This is a relatively small party led by Yom Kippur War hero Avigdor Kahalani, who is currently Minister for Interior Security. This was good, because each time Bloch's guys got too violent, a telephone call to Kahalani made sure the police intervened with all due strictness.
326. marjoribanks - Nov. 11, 1998 - 7:58 AM PT
Mazel Tov, Pike.
327. RustlerPike - Nov. 11, 1998 - 10:52 PM PT
Thanks marj. It still hasn't sunk in. Great news for our town though, that's for sure.
There was a story in the papers the other day, about this man whose son was killed in Lebanon in '91. The guy had cancer and was going to die, and asked the Ministry of Defense if he could be buried next to his son in the military cemetery, which is reserved only for those who died in uniform. By the way, the pictures show a striking resemblance between the two: pleasant, elongated faces, big brown eyes, a relatively dark complexion.
There were some months of letter-writing back and forth, and finally the Ministry of Defense sent its consent in a letter. The father read the letter, smiled, and died an hour later.
Isn't that horribly sad?
328. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 6:43 AM PT
Roughly 200 years ago in America, Catholics and Baptists routinely slaughtered each other over a few silly disagreements about how one should worship God. Today, these former bitter enemies exist side-by-side in communities everywhere. Why? Simply put, the hostilities ceased because both groups had equal economic opportunity and enough people figured out that you can make more money by trading with a living opponent than plundering the wealth of a dead one.
In brief, the resolution to conflict in Israel is to ensure economic opportunity for ALL people in Israel through cooperative enterprises.
329. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 6:53 AM PT
BMD,
Quite right.
Pike,
It's a poignant story. To me, it's reminiscent of conversations I've had with Palestinians in Egypt and the Gulf countries who yearn for the opportunity to see their ancestral homes again, and worship at the Dome of the Rock.
The messianic minority in Israel seems to be on the back foot for once, and the secular majority appears to be gaining political momentum. I'm with Barak right now, let these concessions go ahead as agreed to at Wye and then Netanyahu and the Likud needs to be brought down to be replaced by either Labor or a 'unity' government that can continue the peace process (and the economic upswing) in a markedly different atmosphere - free of ponderous hawks like Sharon and the frenzied extremism fostered by the Netanyahoos.
330. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 6:55 AM PT
How do you see peace coming from giving up land to people who've vowed to destroy Israel?
331. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:03 AM PT
BMD,
In order for a threat to be taken seriously it had to be credible. The Palestinians aren't capable of "destroying" anything but themselves at this point. In fact, their nascent 'civil services' can't even cope with the minimal workload they currently face.
Don't believe the hype. It's convenient for the Israeli right to foster this armaggedon-like threat from all those evil Arabs. In fact, Israel has very little to fear, as the majority of Israelis well know.
332. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:03 AM PT
it HAS to ....
333. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:20 AM PT
Yes, I understand the necessity to look past the hyperbole. But there exists hyperbole on the other side as well: a kind of self-deception that there isn't a credible threat.
It seems vital to extend participation to everyone in the society, and to do so not only symbolically or politically, but to open up economic opportunity for everyone.
What would be the result of Israel setting up economic cooperatives that were composed of equal numbers of the currently oppositional groups?
Again, I don't see any resolution coming from political or religious sources, only from economic ones available to everybody.
334. Jenerator - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:24 AM PT
Bob,
Are you Catholic or Baptist?
335. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:28 AM PT
Neither.
M.O.T.
336. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:34 AM PT
BMD,
There are political solutions available. The problem is that you have an Israeli parliamentary system that gives extremist minorities a disproportionate say in political workings, and an amoral Israeli PM who owes his tenous hold on his seat to these same extremist groups.
What we have in Israel is quite unique: a state sponsored exercise in messianism. The Har Homa project is a clear example of this. Despite knowing that the final part of the peace process will involve an already-difficult settling of the status of jerusalem, the Israeli government is allowing a large-scale changing of the 'facts on the ground'. Why? Not for any good reason but to appease the wacko minority that thinks the end of the world is around the corner and that the Messiah will only come if certain preconditions are reached.
Rather than discourage such idiocy, the current Israeli government is actively abetting it, even at the Cabinet level. What is more, there is a fringe element in US foreign-policy and certainly in the "Churches" of America that supports this development. Fucking idiots.
337. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:38 AM PT
Marjorie:
are you a catholic or a baptist?
338. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 7:40 AM PT
BobMartinDallas,
Are you a nutcase fundamentalist?
339. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 8:05 AM PT
Yes--in the same manner as yourself.
It was important for you to know what box to put me in. I think your dialectic style is indicative of the underlying problem of resolving conflicts between oppositional groups everywhere.
It feels like you're more interesting in quarreling than anything. I hope we can move our discussion to a persuasive dialogue, for it's clear you're capable of that.
What are your "religious" or "cultural" identitifications?
I've done extensive research into the Christian Identity movement and its imitators. In my experience, there is much more than a fringe element in the US (and elsewhere) who are determined to act out the phantasmagoric idiocy of their stupid apocalyptic wet dreams. Just start asking "average" people what they think. I did, and I was shocked to learn how many people go for this "end-'o-the-world" shit.
You've noticed something that few people ever notice: the connection between Christian fundamentalists, militia groups, and Islamic fundamentalists and their militia groups. There is also a link with the Irish Republican Army!
Did you vote recently?
340. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 8:14 AM PT
BMD,
Are you talking to me or to some phantom in your head?
1) I assume you know that I did not ask the question in #334.
2) I am not quarreling with you in the least.
3) I am an Indian/American.
4)"You've noticed something that few people ever notice: the connection between Christian fundamentalists, militia groups, and Islamic fundamentalists and their militia groups. There is also a link with the Irish Republican Army!"
I have said nothing at all about this.
341. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 12, 1998 - 8:26 AM PT
You're right: I didn't realize that at least one of the questions were from another person.
Now, you did say: "the wacko minority that thinks the end of the world is around the corner and that the Messiah will only come if certain preconditions are reached.
Rather than discourage such idiocy, the current Israeli government is actively abetting it, even at the Cabinet level. What is more, there is a fringe element in US foreign-policy and certainly in the "Churches" of America that supports this development. Fucking idiots."
Now without going into a long explanation about critical vs uncritical inference, I accept your criticism that my comments inferred much more than necessary.
And, as it turns out, you are doing the "Signifyin' Monkey" routine, meaning that you're only interested in quarreling, not resolving quarrels.
You should read more about the real history of the world. Maybe you could find a copy of "The Hebrew Impact on Civilization" or perhaps even just get a better understanding of some of the underlying issues by reading Rabbi Telushkin's "Jewish Literacy" which is now in 2 volumes.
Wishing you the very best circumstances for your continued personal evolution.
b'Shalom a'hava
342. marjoribanks - Nov. 12, 1998 - 8:31 AM PT
BMD,
I too wish you the best circumstances for your continued personal evolution. I suggest you start here by outlining why you think the two books you cited are in the slightest bit relevant to this thread topic, or even what you have posted this morning.
And by the way, I still don't see where I have been quarrelsome with you at all.
343. RustlerPike - Nov. 12, 1998 - 12:17 PM PT
marj:
I feel threatened. What can I do? A couple of hours' walking distance from where I live, there are all these fanatics who burn my flag, chant "death to Israel" en mobbe, and actively support a movement that carries out suicide bombings. A couple of hours' drive away, there is an army which has tried to invade this country twice, and is still in a state of war with us. A couple of hours' flight away is a country with a crazed sadist at the helm, who has lobbed missiles at Tel Aviv and may do so again, and is the reason I have gas masks in my closet. Wouldn't you feel threatened?
344. hashke - Nov. 12, 1998 - 12:33 PM PT
Rustler:
First of all take a deep breath, get the hell out of this dangerous thread, and beat it over to Language/Neologisms where it's kinder and gentler.
345. RustlerPike - Nov. 12, 1998 - 12:36 PM PT
Now, while you're right in that messianic people are not interested in making rational arguments, there are a lot of secular right wing Israelis - like Netanyahu - who simply say: we're for peace, but this is not peace. Peace is when you can reasonably trust people not to attack you. But why give land to the Palestinians, if they want it just so they can regroup and arm, and launch more attacks against Israel? What's the point?
I don't like Netanyahu either, I think he's a slick con artist, but I respect the strength he seems to have, and I really don't think any of the other major players in the region - or outside it - are much better. I'm not even sure Netanyahu is slicker, on an absolute scale of slickness, than Clinton. King Hussein is a charmer, but let's not forget, the reason we attacked Jordan and got the West Bank is that he was planning to attack Israel, together with Egypt and Syria, in 1967. Arafat was behind some of the grossest terror attacks ever, and his current regime is worse, corruption and human rights-wise, than the Israeli occupation. So what's the big deal? You're dealing with incorrigible, slimey people, maybe you're better off being incorrigible and slimey yourself?
346. RustlerPike - Nov. 12, 1998 - 12:37 PM PT
hashke!!!
347. MrSocko - Nov. 12, 1998 - 2:16 PM PT
marjoribanks yet again demonstrates that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. He suggests that the Har Homa settlement was created at the behest of the Greater Israel lobby in Israel. In fact, it was constructed for "security" reasons, in order to complete a swathe of settlements encircling East Jerusalem.
He is correct in noting that such moves are wildly applauded by the American evangelical right, but wrong in suggesting that the settlements have the support of the U.S. State Department.
Like BobMartinDallas, I wish marjoribanks a speedy evolution from male-hysteric to nuanced observer of the human condition.
348. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 12:10 AM PT
ATTENTION ALL ISRAEL AND PALESTINE THREAD LOVERS!
(LOVER?)
It has come to my knowledge that this thread will be placed on death row unless the authority feels it has "picked up" sufficiently. I will do my best to arrange a scud attack on Tel Aviv (preferably in the evening hours, when I am already out of there), but should I fail - please make all possible attempts to pick this thread up - whatever that entails! We should at least be allowed to reach a decent number like 500!
349. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 12:50 AM PT
Remember the last time there was a crisis in the Gulf? Well, I was negotiating possibly writing a dispatch for a well-known internet magazine with backing from a software giant at the time. Then it turned out some other guy - a well-connected and moneyed old geezer, it seems to me (sure doesn't write too well) - had already been sent to write a dispatch, so mine was scrapped.
With the war-clouds possibly looming again, and gas-mask stations again being opened country-wide, I feel it might be interesting to read what I wrote back then.
So here it comes!
350. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 12:52 AM PT
February 27th, 1998
I mean really - we Jews have inhaled more than our fair share of poison gas for this century. As a matter of fact - we inhaled enough of it in Auschwitz to earn an official release from poison gas inhalation duty - if not forever, then at least for a millennium or two. So why is this happening?
I'm talking about Saddam, of course. Whether it's VX or Ziklon B, whether it's in a missile dropping from the sky, or in a tin can falling from an aperture in the wall, poison gas is poison gas. You breathe it in, you choke (or melt, or bleed, or whatever) - and you die. Maybe not quite as bad as being flayed alive, or drawn and quartered (victims of genocide are usually given the privilege of a quick death, for efficiency's sake) but not a lot of fun either! And besides - some of us don't want to die! Some of us want to watch our kids (and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren) grow - not froth at the mouth and turn blue, or purple, or...
Sigh.
Forgive me for going emotional there. It's just that - well, I've been under some pressure lately.
I was handling it all very well at first. The military build-up in the Gulf didn't bother me. Phrases like 'mounting tension' and 'heading for a showdown', announced by well-groomed newscasters and projected on my TV screen in maroon-and-gold logos, flew right past me. When neighbors and acquaintances popped the ubiquitous 'will-he-or-won't-he' question (Saddam, use chemical or biological weapons against us), I gave my manliest half-shrug, added a faintly amused grimace, and said I doubt he'd dare, unless he was desperate. After all (the subtext read) - if he did, we'd blow him away. This seemed to go down well with the askers, and made them glad they'd asked me - which, in turn, made me feel better. So everyone was happy.
(cont.)
351. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 12:54 AM PT
(cont.)
But then came the pictures of (seemingly normal) people standing in line for gas masks, or fighting over polyethylene sheeting and masking tape (for gas-proofing their homes), and a couple of especially loud bangs from America's war-drums - and I found myself standing in line, too. There was no shoving, no shouting. Just a queue of middle-of-the-road people in a suburban shopping mall, a couple of pimpled soldiers making sure the line stays orderly, some very young women, awkward in their uniforms, handing out gas tents (for babies), gas suits (for toddlers), gas masks, and syringes filled with atropine. And a cold, gnawing feeling from within. A feeling best described as... horror.
That very evening, Kofi Annan's team announced a "breakthrough" in Baghdad, and we knew the crisis was over, for now. The media would go back to sniping at Netanyahu, Netanyahu would go back to surviving, half the country would go back to hating the other half, and no one would take steps to prevent the next panic.
On the face of it, it seems that a good anti-missile missile and a country-wide network of bomb shelters equipped with air filters would do the trick. The anti-missile missile exists in prototype, but is taking forever to develop. The Hetz, or Arrow, a joint Israeli-American project, was supposed to have been operational this year, if I remember correctly, but there were always budget cuts and political debts to pay, and the Arrow always had to wait. Bomb shelters exist, wherever people reside - every building or group of houses is supposed to have one - but a single air-filtering system cost thousands of dollars, and (as readers of this paragraph already know) short term political interests tend to defeat long-range thinking in the Jewish state.
(cont.)
352. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 12:55 AM PT
(cont.)
Doron Rosenblum, a columnist for the dovish daily Ha'aretz, published a piece called "A Nation of Lambs to the Slaughter" when the recent gas-mask panic began. He saw the "unbearable ease" with which Israelis accept the possibility of being subjected to horrific means of mass annihilation, and resignedly prepare for it, as being a throwback to the diaspora experience, a wholly un-Zionist, panicky attitude. There is no reason to fear a strike by Saddam this time around, said Rosenblum, since it would be contrary to Saddam's interests to attack Israel.
Rosenblum was right - Saddam (whom my spell-checker urges me to replace with "sadism") did not attack, and the gas masks are back in the attic. But what if he does attack eventually? What would the right "Zionist" response be? Some Israelis (OK, they're just a bunch of my neighbors, but I have pretty representative neighbors - really!) say defense is not enough. If Iraq attacks with unconventional weapons, they say, we should nuke it. Blow the Iraqis away. Vaporize 'em. And if the Palestinians join in, goes the corollary - we should take the opportunity to roll our tanks into the Territories, and kick our Arab cousins out of the West Bank and Gaza, once and for all.
In days of peace, talk like that is yucky right-wing fantasy. Under the threat of an direct attack on your children's respiratory systems - it no longer sounds like such an evil idea. When faced with the choice, I wager most of us - even the panicky, diaspora-type Jews Rosenblum speaks of - would rather be tormented by guilt than by anthrax.
(February 27th, 1998)
353. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 4:55 AM PT
Pike,
"I feel threatened. What can I do? A couple of hours' walking distance from where I live, there are all these fanatics who burn my flag, chant "death to Israel" en mobbe, and actively support a movement that carries out suicide bombings."
First of all, don't feel selectively threatened. Right next to you (and in your town) there are fanatics who expect the world to end soon, compare Jews to Nazis and celebrated when Rabin was assassinated. The fanatics who burn your flag are caged and hardly a credible threat to you, as you well know.
"A couple of hours' drive away, there is an army which has tried to invade this country twice, and is still in a state of war with us."
When do you think Israelis will accept the rather stark reality that their army/defence is by far the best in the entire region, and that any potential opponent would be very, very, stupid (not to mention suicidal on a mass scale) to initiate hostilities.
It is as if the US remained on permanent edge due to the military threat posed by Cuba.
In fact, it is not the military leadership that exhibits this kind of paranoia in Israel, it is some of the population at large - I blame the right wing elements and the messianic zealots, they expect the world to end in a blazing conflict so have to raise the spectre of bogeymen everywhere. Like all bogeymen, the "threat" is bogus.
354. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 5:02 AM PT
" But why give land to the Palestinians, if they want it just so they can regroup and arm, and launch more attacks against Israel? What's the point? "
First of all, Pike, you appear to be under the misconception that Israel is "giving" something to the Palestinians. In fact, the peace accords only hand over police/legal/civil controls of land *already occupied* by Palestinians to the Palestinian Authority.
Secondly, you like many Israelis act as though the Palestinians don't exist, as though Gaza and Nablus etc are not heavily populated.
I mean, what choice do you have. You can either support continued Israeli rule over the territories (and deal with immense problems) or you can support handing over the responsibility to the Palestinians themselves. Any sane person would choose the latter, I think.
I mean, have you ever BEEN to Gaza? It's a horrible place, a population time bomb, and no one in his right mind would want to be responsible for it.
355. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 5:03 AM PT
Psocko,
Kindly translate your message. It's meaningless as it stands, and addresses nothing I have written.
356. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 13, 1998 - 5:58 AM PT
RP (Message #343)
"...there are all these fanatics who burn my flag, chant 'death to Israel' en mobbe...."
Very amusing bon mot.
MrSocko (Message #347)
"I wish marjoribanks a speedy evolution from male-hysteric to nuanced observer of the human condition."
Hahahahaha.
357. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 6:13 AM PT
358. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 6:46 AM PT
If brevity is the soul of wit, Message #357 was sheer genius, marj.
359. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 7:14 AM PT
Pike,
Any comments about Har Homa? Isn't Psocko being an ass by parroting this "security" drivel?
360. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:52 AM PT
marj:
I'd sooner try and mediate between Arafat and Netanyahu than come between you and Psocko.
361. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:57 AM PT
Pike,
Well, I 'll deal with Psocko myself (with pleasure).
However, I would like to hear your thoughts on Har Homa.
362. Jenerator - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:57 AM PT
Rustler,
I vote for this thread to remain. Please forward this vote to the necessary party/ies.:)
363. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 8:59 AM PT
Jenerator,
Do you believe the world is going to end and that "the Jews" need to have complete control of Jerusalem in order to fulfill the requirements necessary for the Second coming?
364. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:07 AM PT
Jenerator,
Tell the truth. I'll be gentle, I promise.
365. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:19 AM PT
marj:
I wish I could feel the same confidence you do - I really do. I look at Saddam Hussein and he scares me. He already threw missiles at Tel Aviv once, and all the king's horses and all the king's men could not prevent them from landing more or less where intended. I'd feel a lot better if the Hetz was ready and deployed (and had proven its worth in battle), but that won't happen until next year at the earliest, it seems. Saddam used poison gas before, against civilians. And I don't like the look in his eyes. He seems to be a very un-nice guy (I heard somewhere he molests his male relatives sexually!).
The only thing he ever really succeeded in was attacking Israel. True, he didn't kill anyone, but he got a lot of popularity points with the Arab masses. I figure - if it worked for him once, wouldn't he want to try it again?
I agree we Israelis have the best military in the region, but again - that didn't prevent the Syrian army from pouring down the Golan and into the Galil 'Elyon (Upper Galilee) in 1973, in the first days of the war. It is still unclear what made the Syrian tanks stop in their tracks when they did: a nuclear threat by Golda Meir, fear of an Israeli trap, or lack of proper orders (these are the three theories, and none has yet been publicly proven). One thing appears to be certain: it wasn't the Israeli tanks that made them stop, initially. The counterattack came a bit later.
(cont.)
366. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:24 AM PT
(cont.)
You're right about the nuclear deterrent, but Assad is building up a non-conventional arsenal also. I believe he already has loads of chemical weapons. The Syrians keep talking about the need to achieve strategic parity with Israel. Why is that?
If you're going to make a comparison to the Cold War, Israel vs. Syria is a lot more like the USA vs. the USSR, than the USA vs. Cuba. Syria has a fine army, population-wise I think it matches Israel, and territorially it's a lot bigger. Since Yom Kippur 1973, we Israelis are very careful about dismissing the capabilities of our neighbors.
367. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:34 AM PT
Pike,
If there is some military "threat" to Israel, I agree that it would come from Syria. However, there is little likelihood of open conflict between your country and Assad simply because of the nuclear deterrent. Any build-up of conventional weapons is window-dressing, meant to puff up the image of the ruling oligarchy in Syria, nothing more.
I find it quite distressing that Israelis (some, anyway) consistently have to raise the spectre of "potential opponents" and "war around the corner" in order to justify the treatment of the Palestinians. You yourself said that you think war is inevitable.
My question is : Why? War is not inevitable precisely because Israel maintains vast strategic advantages. Actually, what is inevitable is peace. And Israel under the Netanyahoos is doing a notably pathetic job of managing the process towards that inevitable peace. The current sops to the messianic are absolutely horrific policy and (IMO) unprecedented idiocy on the part of a late-90's legitimate government.
368. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:41 AM PT
(cont.)
Now - I basically agree with your implied contention that there was no point in settling in the Territories in the first place. Yes, I've been to Gaza and it's a hellhole - that's why it was so easy to convince the Israeli population to agree to vacate it.
The problem is though, we're talking real estate here. This is a very small country, marj. I heard someone say "you can't spit in Texas without hitting a Udall". Well - you can't spit in Israel without hitting someone in the Territories. Where I'm sitting right now, in Katzir, smack-dab on the Green Line - and I'll try and upload a map so you can see this - I can easily see Hadera and the Mediterranean, 25 minutes' drive to the west.
What Israel is being asked to do is - and I'm not being playfully rhetorical here - sort of like agreeing to let someone else have your kitchen, bathroom, and half of your living room. It's true they have a good legal claim on this home - so do we - but sharing it is difficult as hell, and not comfortable in the least.
Now, if they insist on trying to jump us when we're on our way to the bathroom at night - this home-sharing becomes nigh-impossible.
I have no feeling for Har-Homa. What I can relate to is saying "hey - this is our capital city - and no one will take it away from us". I remind you that Arafat's mantra is "Palestine with Al-Kuds (Jerusalem) as its capital". To go back to the example of the house: Har-Homa is sort of like us saying - "the master bedroom is ours, and not only that - so are the corridors leading to it, so just forget you ever wanted it!".
369. RustlerPike - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:43 AM PT
marj:
I have to go eat. I'll be back.
370. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:50 AM PT
Pike,
Enjoy your meal.
"It's true they have a good legal claim on this home - so do we - but sharing it is difficult as hell, and not comfortable in the least."
No dispute with this statement. The inevitable peace will not come through universally comfortable measures. It will come as both sides eye each other warily and realize that they will have to live together no matter what. Nobody is going to clear the Arabs from the territory, and sure as hell no one is going to get "drive the Jews into the sea."
371. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:50 AM PT
Pike,
Enjoy your meal.
"It's true they have a good legal claim on this home - so do we - but sharing it is difficult as hell, and not comfortable in the least."
No dispute with this statement. The inevitable peace will not come through universally comfortable measures. It will come as both sides eye each other warily and realize that they will have to live together no matter what. Nobody is going to clear the Arabs from the territory, and sure as hell no one is going to "drive the Jews into the sea."
372. marjoribanks - Nov. 13, 1998 - 9:52 AM PT
Urk, sorry for the double post.
BTW, Pike, you are going to have to share Al Quds, get used to the idea.
373. BobMartinDallas - Nov. 13, 1998 - 10:56 AM PT
Israel mustn't give up one square micrometer of territory. Neither should it attempt to erect a totalitarian state. It MUST assume the moral leadership for the entire world and ensure that Justice/Charity is available for everyone.
Someone in an earlier post noted that Jerusalem is a sacred place for ALL HUMANITY. I'd add that we have a responsibility to future generations to work to see that this goal of making Jerusalem an international treasure is realized.
Reb Leynor suggests that those who're working to destroy the Dome of the Rock so they can rebuild the Temple haven't done the proper study to realize that the next Temple will be a place for EVERYONE to worship G-d in their own way.
Now just how this will happen is a mystery to everyone, but what do you think a person in 1676 would've thought about the idea that the American colonies would, in 100 years, begin the process that lead to the United States? IMPOSSIBLE! HOW?
In that case, it took a few fairly well-educated people who knew the difference between reasoning and sophistry. I guess that makes it more difficult for us today, given the fact that even very well educated people now believe that sophistry IS reasoning.
Ah, well. Perhaps we should all sing the Monty Python song "Just Remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at 900 miles an hour; that's orbiting at 90 miles a second, so it's reconed, a sun which is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see are moving at a million miles a day, in an outer spiral arm, at forty-thousand-miles-an-hour in a galaxy we call the Milky Way."
b'Shalom
374. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 2:55 AM PT
marj:
Sorry - I felt sort of drowsy after that meal and allowed myself the liberty of a good night's sleep.
Sez you: "Right next to you (and in your town) there are fanatics who expect the world to end soon, compare Jews to Nazis and celebrated when Rabin was assassinated".
That's a misconception, I believe. The people you describe are Kahane-type pricks, and I doubt there is even one of them in my little settlement.
Comparing Jews to Nazis is a favorite pastime of both the Right and the Left here, as well as the ultraorthodox and militant Sepharadim.
The Right mostly compare the Arabs to Nazis, and the Left to appeasers (MK Rekhav'am Zeevi: "Netanyahu went to Wye, but he returned from Munich"). The picture of Rabin in SS uniform was an exception. The far Left compares settlers to Nazis - Prof. Yesha'yahu Leibovitz coined the charming phrase "Judeo-Nazis".
The ultraorthodox compare the police to Nazis, when they demonstrate violently against cars being driven through a certain neighborhood on Shabat, and are dispersed by police. The militant Sepharadim compare the Ashkenazim to Nazis, and offend them by spray painting swastikas and writing "Ashkenatsim" (using the Hebrew letter which denotes the *ts* rather than the *z* sound, and thus combining the words "Ashkenazi" and "Nazi").
(cont.)
375. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 3:18 AM PT
Celebrating when Rabin was assassinated - that may have happened on certain West Bank settlements (*hitnakhaluyot*). I don't know. I certainly don't remember anyone having the gall to publicly celebrate. But like I said - the settlements, and not all of them at that, are home to a very specific kind of Israeli.
You go 3 kilometers east from where I live, across the green line to Reikhan or Shaked, and already the population is more right-wing, the dogs bigger, and the general atmosphere somehow different. I'd give you a more detailed description, but I don't know these places well enough. But even there, I'm sure there was shock and grief (and shame) after the assassination - perhaps coupled with other, conflicting feelings, of relief perhaps, or vindication.
What I'm basically saying is, we don't have these massive demonstrations in the streets where people chant themselves into a frenzy and burn flags, or simulate suicide bombings of Palestinian buses. There were some very effective steps taken against Rabbi Kahane in his day, including banning racist parties from the Knesset and a decision by the media to effectively ignore him and his provocations (quite a praiseworthy step, I think!!!).
There was an article in "Yediot Akharonot" by a left-wing MK recently, perhaps Amnon Rubinstein of Meretz, in which he chided the Arab intelligentsia for not embracing the cause of peace as the Israeli "elites" have. He noted that - in Egypt and other countries, and among the Palestinians - there is no feeling that the press or academia is restraining the nationalistic, fanatic tendencies of the "masses".
Cartoons in the Arab press, and articles by various professors and pundits, are rarely of a dovish nature, and often quite blatantly anti-Israeli, not to say racistly anti-Jewish. I have yet to hear of an Arab "Peace Now", or to see a demonstration by Egyptian intellectuals against a suicide attack by the H
376. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 3:19 AM PT
...Hamas.
377. jkuzmak - Nov. 14, 1998 - 5:23 AM PT
Ladies and Gentlemen:
I am here to learn. Rustlerpike, you say that you have never heard of an Arab "Peace Now" movement. According to Edward Said the "Israelis deported Mubarak Awad, a leader in the non-violent struggle for Palestinian rights" in 1988 and allow him only brief returns to the land of his birth. Why deport the leader of a non-violent movement?The first thing that comes to mind is that he was troublingly effective. I believe that Mr. Said would make the argument that part of the reason that he was deported was that it was difficult to depict him and his movement as a bunch of wild- eyed fanatics bent on the destruction of Isreal. Rather, they had to be depicted as a group of innocent people who got the short end of the stick and were struggling for basic "human rights", if we believe in such a thing as basic human rights. A violent, fanatic and ineffective Arab opposition is easier for the government of Israel to deal with than an effective and peaceful Arab opposition.It is far easier to crack the heads of violent protesters than to do the same thing with peaceful protesters who would appear to be morally superior to the Israelis. What to do? Deport the non violent opposition.
Please, educate me.
378. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 5:47 AM PT
jkuzmak:
I agree with you, basically. I remember Mubarak 'Awad - is he still not allowed to return? 1988 was the first year of the Intifadah, and Israel was trying everything to stop it, then. I agree, though, that 'Awad was viewed as dangerous for the reasons you cited. I never said the Israeli occupation was enlightened, or good, or nice.
Still - an organization for nonviolent struggle against an enemy is not the equivalent of "Peace Now", which is an organization against the struggle itself. An Arab "Peace Now" would protest against *Arab* and *Muslim* misdeeds - like bombings meant to kill civilians, or opposition to peace in Syria, or calls for the annihilation of Israel in places like Iran. It would call for dialog, and cry "shame" when terror attacks occurred.
379. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 7:52 AM PT
I read a little about 'Awad on the net: he was deported because he was seen as a leader and organizer who was instrumental in creating the mood of mass defiance which led to the Intifadah (by the way, I can understand the sentiment behind the Intifadah, and if I were a Palestinian, I'm sure I would have joined in it. That's not the issue though).
'Awad himself said he supported the Intifadah, and saw it as a struggle for justice. Since the Intifadah was largely a violent uprising, maybe 'Awad is less of a nonviolent guy than he claims to be? Certainly, he doesn't seem to be a Palestinian Peace Nownik.
380. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 7:55 AM PT
This is why I think the Arabs are dickheads. They should have just accepted the UN partition plan in 1947.
381. pellenilsson - Nov. 14, 1998 - 1:52 PM PT
RustlerPike
What is your position on the Goldberg monument outside Hebron?
382. MrSocko - Nov. 14, 1998 - 4:19 PM PT
Pike, -- I don't see that the Arabs were being "dickheads" in rejecting the partition. Why on earth should a people accept a new nation-state in their midst when they are wholly confident that the entity seeking to create the nation-state will soon be wiped out?
It just so happened that this never took place, and likely never will.
Which means that these tribes now have to negotiate a solution that will yield the best possible results for both. Can this ever happen? Frankly I doubt it, although it's now inevitable that it must yet be created. A state of Palestine will be no less an economic basket-case than the current version. For Israel, though, it would be far easier to deal militarily with a separate Palestinian entity than to forever try and retain control over its two million inhabitants.
The only outcome which could possibly benefit all sides is the one that will never happen: the joining of Jordan, Israel and Palestine into a single trading bloc.
383. bloodnfire - Nov. 14, 1998 - 8:14 PM PT
RustlerPike. Congratulations on your lovely family. That's Psalm 92 and verse 12 in which are mentioned the two trees after which your children are named. God bless Israel. That He would also enable your boy and girl to be...'Righteous'...and...'Flourish like the palm tree:
...Grow like a cedar in Lebanon'.
I stood on the Golan Heights and looked down at the verdant land of Israel in the middle of the desert. That same industry, vision and co-operation could make a homeland for the Palestinians too. It would be wonderful to see everyone living in peace, side by side.
If only Sarah hadn't tried to 'help God out' by suggesting that Abraham had sex with her maidservant, Hagar. There would have been no Ishmael. On the other hand, God has blessed and multiplied the Arabs pretty extensively too, so I'm sure it's all part of The Plan. What a revival of love could do in that part of the World. Elsewhere too, come to think of it.
b'Shalom.
384. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 11:01 AM PT
Does anyone else see a parallel between the way BC called the planes off at the literal last minute before the strike on Iraq, and the way he abstained from gratification with Monica Lewinsky? Maybe deep down inside, he's afraid if he lets the bombs drop, Saddam's dress will be stained? Oh well.
Psocko:
"Why on earth should a people accept a new nation-state in their midst when they are wholly confident that the entity seeking to create the nation-state will soon be wiped out?"
Well - the Arabs were not just passively expecting the Jewish state to be wiped out - they were expecting to be the ones who wiped it out, actively.
So yeah, I guess you can still say that if you can wipe out a nation-state "in your midst", why not do it - but then the *mitnakhalim* could say the same thing today about Arafat's state, couldn't they? They could say - if we can wipe them out, why accept them?
The simple truth is that the Arabs should have accepted the Jewish state - if not before 1948, then after, once it was apparent the Jews were a strong fighting force. Israel would have remained in its relatively small borders, and the Palestinians would have sat pretty in the territories.
But they didn't accept it. They fought Israel again, and lost land again. The Palestinians then let another 25 years go by, and now there are over 100 thousand settlers in there, and God knows how you'll ever get them out.
If the Palestinians had found it in them to at least keep a lid on it for a few months after the Rabin assassination, Peres would have won the elections - but they had to go and blow up buses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in March and April of 1996, just before the elections, and Peres lost. Well - so did the Palestinians.
385. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 11:20 AM PT
PelleNilsson
The Goldstein monument is an abomination. I understand that the army has decided to take apart most of the stuff surrounding it, like special paving or lamps whatever is there, leaving only the tombstone itself. All I can say is - many of the Jews living in Kiryat Arba and Hebron are not the kind of people I would want as my friends. Many of them are crude and violent people, and in some ways you could see them as the scum of our nation.
Having said that, I think some of them are actually OK as people, but have somewhat odd views on the world. I don't know if there was consensus, even in Kiryat Arba, that this guy deserved hero status. Also, these guys do live under tremendous stress. Daytime Hebron is probably more dangerous than even nighttime Harlem...
Still, this guy was no Bernard Getz (was that his name?).
386. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 11:22 AM PT
blood'n:
Thanks!!!
So what's the full quote from Psalms?
387. MrSocko - Nov. 15, 1998 - 11:52 AM PT
Pike,
No nation -- let's assume that Palestine was a nation in 1948 -- in the history of the world has calmly sat by and allowed another nation to be carved into the back of its head. Why should the Palestinians have been any different in 1948? The only justification for the creation of modern Israel was the halo of sympathy that the Jews enjoyed as a result of Shoah. But that wasn't an "Arab" problem. The Arabs were hanging out in Trans-Jordan, smoking cigarettes and playing with their camels, when the Germans were shoving Jews into ovens. And then the UN is like, "It's *your* fault, towel-heads, quit your homes and make way for the new boss!"
Hey, what would *you* have done?
388. MrSocko - Nov. 15, 1998 - 12:06 PM PT
One other thing, Pike: The Palestinians didn't blow up the buses during the election cycle. It was a specific group that did it.
389. Jenerator - Nov. 15, 1998 - 2:24 PM PT
Marj,
Re Message #363
I'm not entirely sure about the exact role of the Jews concerning the Secong Coming of Christ. The book of Revelation is not the easiest book to understand. For me to answer completely and fairly, I would need to re-read Revelation, refer to notes, and get back to ya!
Now, remember what you said:
"Tell the truth. I'll be gentle, I promise."
:)
390. bloodnfire - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:14 PM PT
RustlerPike. Here it is...Psalm 92 starting at verse 9..."For, lo, Thine enemies, O LORD, for lo, Thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.
But my horn shalt Thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
Mine eyes also shall see my desire on mine enemies, and mine ears shall hear my desire of the wicked that rise up against me."
[Here come your babies...:-)]...Verse 12..."The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree; he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon".
I think it's helpful, when we're thinking about 'the righteous' and 'mine enemies', especially in the current tragic situation in the Middle East, to remember the words of Romans 2:28 and 29..."For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;
neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God"
391. bloodnfire - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:23 PM PT
[Continuing]. The truth is that a Jew, an Arab, A Palistinian, A Christian, A Muslim, A buddhist, etc., etc., any man or woman whose 'heart' has been circumcised are 'one in the Family of God'. Brothers and Sisters.
Anyone else is just 'ploughing ahead in the flesh'. When all Israel turns again to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Who even today, ignored by perhaps the majority, still gives the most astounding victories in situations against overwhelming odds, hearts will be circumcised on all sides, and peace might come to the region.
Rustler, those of us who are persuaded that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were 'given by inspiration of God', are often referred to as 'Thumpers' in The Fray. I again say that the Word of God has far more often 'Thumped' me, than I it!!
b'Shalom.
392. MrSocko - Nov. 15, 1998 - 6:53 PM PT
Oh brother!
393. jkuzmak - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:05 PM PT
I assume that many who frequent this thread are familiar with Isreal Shahak's Jewish History, Jewish Religion the Weight of 3000 years. I am certain that Shahak is anathema to many ,to the card carrying and the rightous, and the thumpers. Get off that track and take part in a truly noble endeavor, the rational discussion of this world of ours with your fellow human beings.
394. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 10:30 PM PT
jkuzmak:
Israel Shahak is a wierdo.
blood'n:
I doubt that was a unicorn in the Hebrew original. As far as I know, Judaism doesn't believe in those. Wait - lemme look it up...
Yeah, the Hebrew is *re'em*. That's a deerlike animal with straight horns, I believe, but I'm pretty sure it's got two of 'em.
395. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 10:42 PM PT
Psocks:
"No nation -- let's assume that Palestine was a nation in 1948 -- in the history of the world has calmly sat by and allowed another nation to be carved into the back of its head".
But isn't that what Israel is being asked to do? I know, I know - the Palestinian Arabs had been here for ages, and we were few and came out of nowhere (though in 1948 there were already 600 thousand Jews in Israel/Palestine). To a certain extent that's true, though the flip side is - we were here long before the Arabs got here, and the Arabs know this, if only because they read the Koran. Of course, there's that new theory about the Palestinians being the Philistines, but that's crap.
"The only justification for the creation of modern Israel was the halo of sympathy that the Jews enjoyed as a result of Shoah. But that wasn't an "Arab" problem. The Arabs were hanging out in Trans-Jordan, smoking cigarettes and playing with their camels, when the Germans were shoving Jews into ovens".
That's simply not true. The Mufti of Jerusalem, Al-Husseini, grandfather of Feisal Husseini, visited with Hitler and was very openly pro-Nazi. I'll try and look up the details this evening.
396. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 10:44 PM PT
Oh - and the fact that the Palestinians were *not* a nation at the time, nor had they ever been one, in the regular sense of the word, is very relevant too.
397. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 10:47 PM PT
Plus - I'm not just talking about the Palestinians - I'm talking about the *Arabs*. If you look at the entire map of Arabdom, Israel is not carved into the Arab nation's head, any more than a mosquito bite would be.
398. RustlerPike - Nov. 15, 1998 - 10:48 PM PT
I'm late for work! Aaaaaah!
399. MrSocko - Nov. 16, 1998 - 1:01 AM PT
Pike,
Yeah, yeah. I don't how many times this Mufti of Jerusalem character gets pressed into service by those explaining the pre-1948 Palestinian character. I don't really see that he's all that important. I don't see that any of the history is all that important, actually.
The fact is that there currently exist two tribes living in Israel, a Jewish state. One of the tribes is not Jewish. So Israel cannot retain its unique character and forever hold dominion over these other guys. Something has to give. What? I say a demilitarized state for the Palestinians is the only solution.
Israel has shown itself time and again to be one of the world's best fighting machines; some people -- not me -- would rank it as high as the British army. It has beaten back attacks from all sides, sometimes at the same moment. And it's nuclear armed. Yet this same state is frightened of a postage-stamp size, demilitarized state for the very people it dispossessed. Shame on the Israelis.
400. jkuzmak - Nov. 16, 1998 - 3:32 AM PT
Pike and Bloodn':
I must point out to you that your criticism of Shahak is a complete void.The sentence "Shahak is a wierdo" contains the same amount of information as the sentence "Shahak is a white buffalo". Same goes for you Bloodn'. I am completely open to the argument that Shahak is a wierdo, but you will have to make it. Short of that Mr. Shahak has written a very interesting book.