202. ptboya - Oct. 26, 1998 - 7:18 PM PT
You might have saved yourself a superfluous sigh or two. The word was used here only to decry racialist thinking.
203. ptboya - Oct. 26, 1998 - 7:20 PM PT
Re: #201
Then keep your eyes peeled.
204. PseudoErasmus - Oct. 26, 1998 - 7:22 PM PT
Message #203
I think, rather, that you should unconfound a few things you have obviously confounded.
205. ptboya - Oct. 26, 1998 - 7:29 PM PT
Confound it my man! You must view it as your job to knitpick my vocabulary. Left out this time is the whack hilarity you displayed last week.
206. talkBackCarl - Oct. 26, 1998 - 8:34 PM PT
Since the US rarely , if ever, receives any tangible benefit for our considerable support for Israel, and since the likelihood is that Pollard will be sooner or later freed, how about swapping him for the removal of the settlement(s) in Hebron? This would save a lot of money & grief for both sides & the US would have one less unproductive settlement to subsidize.
207. RustlerPike - Oct. 27, 1998 - 5:18 AM PT
ptboya:
Isn't that what used to be called predestination? Or fatalism?
Now - what the fuck does this have to do with the subject at hand?
I'm sorry if I keep misunderstanding you... could it be that I keep trying to fill in a meaning to your posts - when in truth they have none? All I have discerned in your line of argument so far is a Lennonesque aversion to borders and nationalities, with an implied subtext saying that you are somehow better than everyone else because you are a supranational being (and an expert on Rift Valley genotypes to boot!).
208. ptboya - Oct. 27, 1998 - 6:27 AM PT
Rustler…
Is it something I said? I doubt it.
"Isn't that what used to be called predestination? Or fatalism?
Now - what the fuck does this have to do with the subject at hand?"
I find it incredible that anyone should have to explain how an essentialist philosophical stance (you misconstue it as mere fatalism) led to the litany of horrors of the past few centuries: slavery, colonialism, racial and ethnic discrimination, sexism, caste systems, and genocide. I'm sure I've left out some. A belief in the essential nature of man was buttressed by pseudo-scientific doctrines, the latest being biological determinism. Jews, amongst others, have paid a heavy price for the unquestioning belief in essence. That is the relevance.
And please, spare me your perfunctory apologies; the real you lies in your final sentence of #207.
209. marjoribanks - Oct. 27, 1998 - 6:53 AM PT
Ptboya,
I am enjoying your posts here, except for the spurious Ebonics. In the future, kindly remember that wack is not spelt or pronounced "whack." "Mutha" is allright, but a bit silly coming from a white man of your advanced years.
210. RustlerPike - Oct. 27, 1998 - 8:54 AM PT
I admit, ptboya, you annoy me. It is the convoluted persistence with which you say nothing which gets to me. And my apology was not perfunctory - it was tongue-in-cheek.
As for the subject at hand: the killings have already started. A Jew, a security guy with the Israeli Electric Company was killed yesterday just outside Palestinian Hebron. A few hours later, an Arab was found dead outside a Jewish settlement, and a Jew was arrested as a suspect. The second killing may have been revenge for the first.
Then again, the first may have been revenge for something too.
The situation in the Territories is exactly what I would come up with if I was told to invent a model which would inevitably lead to war. Two fanatic, religious and nationalistic populations mixed in with each other in such a way that makes separating them a bit more difficult than separating Siamese twins. A small area. One side having the advantage as far as weapons are concerned, having an army backing it up, with a better infrastructure and a feeling of cultural superiority, angered by millenia of persecution which ended only recently. The other having the numerical advantage, relatively poor, perhaps harboring an inferiority complex, and angered by decades of occupation.
One side with a messianic belief in coming redemption, which makes it unafraid of doing anything really, because the Coming is foreordained, and it is up to the believers to bring it closer through the redemption of the Holy Land. The other side with a tendency to get whipped up into holy-war frenzy. Both sides armed to the teeth. The millennium coming up, making messianism even more potent.
Really - they don't make it more explosive than that.
211. radi11 - Oct. 27, 1998 - 12:40 PM PT
Dear RustlerPike and Everybody,
I am sorry that this is the fifth time in which I write unhopelessly in this subject and in the end when I post ,everything is gone with the wind.I think ,from my modest sharing in the slay , that this happens when I write for long.
Anyway , I'll try to write shorter this time.
As for elections in Um El Fahem , my hometown, of course there are elections like in any other place in this country whose government doesn't like to acknowledge the mere existance of its Arab citizens.but what makes the elections here look so low in tone is the good quality that characterizes its population which keeps a high level of ethical values while competing for the elections.The political conflict isn't that weak ,but people are more cohesive than in any other Arab -I would say -and Jewish community.This is clear in the relatively very small number of competing lists. It has never exceeded the number 4.This doesn't satisfy me as I have always dreamt of having only two lists , because in my view , the struggle must be more limited and directed towards two goals :1-the external one is facing the discriminative governmental policy against Arabs which was strikingly and aggressively clear during the events (of 27-30 September,1998)2- the internal one is deciding which of the two main streams must take over.We have the Islamic Movement on one hand and the National Secular movement .Because of the division among the latter group, it is more probable that the Islamic Movement will win again.
212. marjoribanks - Oct. 27, 1998 - 12:51 PM PT
Radi11,
Very interesting. Thank you very much.
I really hope that you will take the time to contribute to the Fray, I can assure you that many are listening closely to what you have to say.
213. radi11 - Oct. 27, 1998 - 12:58 PM PT
Dear RustlerPike and Everybody,
as for the name of my hometown , Um El Fahem , it literarily means " the mother of coal " , but in English it means " whatever has coal". Mother here means " Ba'alat " in Hebrew. To clarify here I say, " If we want to define a woman by sying"the woman with the car",we say " Um El Sayyara. " Sayyara " means car.The sami is the wod "Abu Kbeer", but with masculine nouns."Abu" means father ."Kbeer " means " old or big.So , together they mean "Father of the Old".I hope I have clarified matters.
Radi 11
214. vonKreedon - Oct. 27, 1998 - 1:04 PM PT
Has anyone raised the involvement of the CIA as a coup for the Palestinian Authority? I apologize if this has been discussed, I am too lazy/busy to go back and see.
Anyway, it seems to me that the PA has managed to insert a wedge between the US and Isreal. Isreal will not like it that the CIA reports that the PA is living up to its security agreements, Likud loses its excuse for dragging Isreals feet. The US, already tired of the foot dragging, will not like having its CIA reports called into question.
215. radi11 - Oct. 27, 1998 - 1:10 PM PT
Ref. to # 212 Marjoribanks,
Thank you for the compliment. I hope I will not let you or anybody else down. I may disagree with some people , but I will always respect their views and write as objectivey as a responsible person must do , despite the hottness of the subjects that may be discussed here.
216. marjoribanks - Oct. 27, 1998 - 1:25 PM PT
radi11,
Don't put too much pressure on yourself.
In any case, I wonder if you'd consider telling us in the Fray a little bit more about your town, Um El Fahem . I, particularly, would really appreciate it. I'd especially like to hear about the local politics, the schools available, the employment picture, what is available at the markets, etc.
I realize this is asking for a lot of effort. Don't worry if you don't want to expend your (I'm sure pricey) Internet time in this manner.
Again, I hope you will stick around.
217. jeb111 - Oct. 27, 1998 - 1:39 PM PT
Radi11:
You do have much of value to add. Have you ever considered that some of the people reading your posts are from very rural, even mountainous, regions of the USA? There are not many Israelis from whom we can learn. Please continue.
218. Random - Oct. 27, 1998 - 4:49 PM PT
Radi11:
Great to learn from your interesting posts. Thank you!
219. boohab - Oct. 27, 1998 - 6:59 PM PT
besides the fact that i find netanyahu a prig, i do recall that particular opinion coming into sharper focus having heard a muslim cleric and/or scholar on npr a few weeks ago. his very convincing argument led me to believe that there is indeed a great deal of promise in the land. the import of rustler's post is undermined by the clear amount of tolerance he showed and convinced me that many people in the land have.
of course i wish i could remember this fellow's name, but his argument made clear some distinctions which we tend not to make in the state regarding statehood and 'rights to exist'. if you all will get socratic with me, it may remind me of his finer points. the first, if i remember correctly, is that palestine has been ruled by all manner of governments since ancient times, and war and troubled times have only existed under conditions in which various groups have been expelled. in today's terms, the question of secular rights and protections should not be based on or influenced by religion, yet this is the course that some israelis are taking. their influence on the policy of isreal is what creates and amplifies conflicts between jews and muslims.
if israel would attempt to become a secular state which protects all its citizens equally without regard to religious creed, then jerusalem has every prospect of remaining a peaceful city. but as i understand it, israel has no intention of extending equal rights to 'palestinians'.
220. xkennedy - Oct. 27, 1998 - 9:53 PM PT
Is Serbia the Israel of the Balkans, or is Israel the Serbia of the Middle East? The major difference between them is that Serbia does not an influential lobby (Thank God) in the US.
221. ptboya - Oct. 28, 1998 - 5:37 AM PT
radi11…
I'd like to add my voice to those welcoming your input. I encourage you to tell us more, both about daily life in your village and about the feelings and hopes of your neighbors.
Marjoribanks…
You are confusing Ebonics with street talk. And should I be barred from slipping into the vernacular in which I am daily immersed as a musician… because I'm white?
RustlerPike…
"It is the convoluted persistence with which you say nothing which gets to me."
If I "annoy" you it is at least not on the basis of petty, personal insults which has been the coin of your argument with me. Perhaps, if you could spend some more time thinking about what others say and less time constructing insults and false subtexts, things would appear less convoluted.
222. marjoribanks - Oct. 28, 1998 - 7:19 AM PT
Boya,
Homes, I'm just teasing.
Boohab,
Your statement "if israel would attempt to become a secular state which protects all its citizens equally without regard to religious creed, then..." is quite spot-on.
The NYT has occasionally portrayed the internal struggle of Israel as being between "the Jews" and "the Israelis." Oddly enough, many Israelis I know agree with this distinction. In 1998, the Israelis have an endlessly promising future ahead of them, the real danger to this future actually comes from the "Jews" who though a minority are disproportionately politically powerful thanks to Israels Parliamentary system.
I don't like Pike's repeated characterization of the regional situation as simply between two equally fanatic, equally armed groups. In fact, there are at least two significant blocs among the Israelis themselves, and as Radi11 has indicated there is a similar division within the Arab population as well.
Pike has said earlier in this thread that he thinks War is inevitable. I completely disagree. War will only take place if the messianic minority on both sides is allowed to take precedence.
223. RustlerPike - Oct. 28, 1998 - 7:41 AM PT
Radi:
Jeez, I wonder what is causing the problem you are having posting long messages. Can anyone guess what might be causing this problem? I'm sure it's frustrating.
I have another question for you, Radi: is it true, as was reported here in Yediot Akhronot and other newspapers, that Netanyahu's name, if it is spelled in a certain way, means something like "rotten fruit" in Arabic? I remember reading that Egyptian and other papers mocked him for this.
Also - does "Umm Kultum" or "Umm Kulsum" mean "Mother of all Mouths"? Is this because of her singing ability, as I have been told?
Marj: I was not referring to all of Israel when I spoke of the fanatic, messianic Jewish population, but rather of the West Bank, where most settlers would fall into this group, I think, or at least half of them. Some choose to live in the West Bank because, simply, they can't afford to buy a house inside the green (1967) line.
ptboya: I was under the impression that you were the one who started getting personal, with uppity cracks about me not understanding you because English was my second language. In any case, I am quite happy to let that drop and get back to a serious discussion of the subject.
224. ptboya - Oct. 28, 1998 - 8:08 AM PT
Rustler…
Done.
No offense was intended by that remark you cited. I was simply searching for reasons why you may have misunderstood an earlier comment. In fact, your English appears better than most native speakers I know, fwiw.
So what's your take… and Radi11's take… from ground zero right now?
Can you both update us on the capture of suspects in the two recent murder cases… that of a settler, gunned down in the West Bank; and the murder of a Palestinan farmer, apparently in retaliation. How is this playing in both populations? Are people inured to this sort of mayhem now?
Netanyahu has obviously run into some fierce opposition within his cabinet or otherwise he would have not searched for a pretext to delay signing the recent agreement. The pretext, as I understand it, is that the Palestinians must produce a security plan within time frame "x." I'm not sure of the value of "x" because there seem to be different interpretations of that detail being put out by all three parties to the agreement. In any event the spin the NY Times put on this today showed the likelihood of some serious headbutting between the US and Israel before this agreement, presented as a done deal, is really done.
225. marjoribanks - Oct. 28, 1998 - 8:22 AM PT
I think Netanyahu is really screwing up here. He is trying to appear obdurate for narrow political reasons back home. As a result, he is getting flak from the USA AND the hawks back home who resent it when the stubbornness gives way inevitably to compromise. A small amount of statesmanship demonstrated by him would go a very long way but I am finally convinced that he is not capable of it.
BTW, anyone see the photos of Arafat and Albright flanked by Bibi and Clinton. It was like a bizarro-world mirror-image. Albright really does look amazingly like Arafat in drag, or was it the other way round.
226. mrsocko - Oct. 28, 1998 - 2:58 PM PT
ptb:
You must understand that the word "marjoribanks" is a trans. verb, meaning to falsely posture as the face of global underclasses, whether they be Maori, Arab, or from the American hood. Here is a typical example of the word's usage:
-- "The new Spike Lee movie really sucks -- its take on Brooklyn, N.Y., is just so much marjoribanks!"
I hope this proves helpful to you.
227. marjoribanks - Oct. 28, 1998 - 3:28 PM PT
Hahahahahaha.
228. marjoribanks - Oct. 28, 1998 - 3:29 PM PT
Not bad psocko, now do you have anything constructive to say in re Israel/Palestine?
229. RustlerPike - Oct. 29, 1998 - 4:30 AM PT
There was another terror attack this morning in the Gaza Strip. Apparently, a suicide bomber tried to blow up a school bus full of kids. He apparently managed to kill himself and a soldier who was on a jeep escorting the bus.
Now - you see - these things get to me. They upset me. It doesn't matter to me that they are *meant* to upset me, and are perpetrated by enemies of peace, blah blah. They upset me anyways.
All it'll take is a successful attack like that, a schoolbus full of dead kids, and all hell will break loose. That's what I think. I don't even think the CIA's men on the ground (btw, I understand there was one thereÝthis morning, after the explosion, to assess the situation) will be able to do much to cool things down.
Politically, ptboya, there is talk of elections, but also of a unity government with Barak and the Labor Party. Barak doesn't seem to want it, but if things get out of hand, the two big parties might find it in themselves to unite, as they did on the eve of the 6 Day War.
Btw: Barak was Netanyahu's commander in Sayeret Matkal, that most elite of elite units in the IDF.
230. marjoribanks - Oct. 29, 1998 - 6:52 AM PT
If the talk of a unity government is serious (and I haven't read anything in the US papers about it yet) it's a very good thing, an excellent idea that will undoubtedly further the peace process.
231. ptboya - Oct. 29, 1998 - 7:12 PM PT
Rustler…
I share your feelings. I too am upset when targets are chosen without regard for civilian casualties. Those who make such choices are despicable cowards. If children on that bus had been massacred, the agreement would no doubt have been killed along with them. Unfortunately, that would play right into the hands of the irredentist extremists on both sides.
232. RustlerPike - Oct. 30, 1998 - 2:04 AM PT
marjoribanks:
Well, it's confusing, and I don't have any inside dope (thankfully, I'm in advertising now, and no longer a journalist), just what's in the media, and only bits and pieces of *that*.
About a month and a half ago there was a "secret" meeting between Netanyahu and Barak in Mossad headquarters in Tel-Aviv, apparently to discuss the possibility of a unity government. I gather it was Netanyahu who initiated the meeting. The reports said Barak was the one who refused the offer.
I don't know which of the two leaked the meeting to the press (the very next day, I think), but they started blaming each other immediately afterwards, like they always do, about who refused unity, and who leaked the story, blah blah.
The idea is being mentioned again as a possibility. I think it was Khaim Ramon (Labor) who floated it yesterday, then took the idea back in the evening, and I think Peres said it was worth considering too.
233. RustlerPike - Oct. 30, 1998 - 2:16 AM PT
I don't know if you can access this site without subscribing, but there's a story in Ha'aretz which has Barak saying that a national unity government is impossible.
234. ptboya - Oct. 30, 1998 - 6:16 AM PT
I could only get as far as the headline about 'PM incited against Rabin and now me: Barak.' Is that it? The site was very slow.
I'm not at all convinced that a coalition would either be possible (of that you'd be the better judge) or effective. The last one seems to have papered over a lot of differences which later erupted into the open with intensified virulence. Maybe it's better to fight these battles daily.
235. RustlerPike - Oct. 30, 1998 - 9:15 AM PT
ptboya:
Yeah, that's the article.
By "the last one" you mean the rotation coalition between Shamir and Peres? That was a long time ago.
I agree that it probably won't happen, unless it comes to an emergency situation. Both Netanyahu and Barak have robust egos, both believe, I think, in the ideologies they represent, both are ambitious - it would be very hard for Barak to take orders from Netanyahu. But if it came to an emergency situation, public pressure may force them to cooperate. If all hell breaks loose in the Territories, it would make little sense to hold elections until it (the hell) was over.
I don't think there is any very deep-seated animosity between the two. There was more bad blood, I think, between Ben-Gurion and Begin. There is probably more bad blood between Barak and Peres, whom he nudged out of leadership, than between him and Netanyahu.
236. 109109 - Oct. 30, 1998 - 9:19 AM PT
"All it'll take is a successful attack like that, a schoolbus full of dead kids, and all hell will break loose."
Perhaps the most poignant statement against a deal in the Middle East. Every so wants some sort of bargain while knowing full well that it will be built on the most tenuous of foundations.
237. RustlerPike - Oct. 30, 1998 - 9:53 AM PT
Niner:
Ex-zackly. The Palestinian Authority is cracking down on the Hamas and Islamic Jihad today, making about 400 arrests, reportedly, and placing Sheikh Yasin under house arrest. But they've cracked down in the past, and then released most everyone, after a while.
If it's true that Hamas represents deep emotions in the Palestinian populace - and it certainly seems to - I just don't think Arafat can quash them. I'm not even sure he wants to. And even if the Hamas is crippled - the terror could come from anywhere, really. The guy who murdered the rabbi in Hebron and carried out two other grenade attacks acted on his own at first - and *then* joined the Hamas.
It's just too easy to derail this train, and too many people want to do it. Not even the CIA can prevent that, I don't think. It's not a peacekeeping army.
238. 109109 - Oct. 30, 1998 - 11:13 AM PT
This is why you don't deal with savages or terrorists unless they have you on the ropes.
At present, they are receiving something for bad behavior and exercise of pure weakness.
239. Wombat - Oct. 30, 1998 - 12:35 PM PT
Israel is asking the Palestinians to do what the Israelis have been unable to do, namely, eliminate the possibility of terrorist attacks by Palestinians. With a condition like that, a working settlement is almost impossible. It is also not "conditioning" the Israelis and the Palestinians for peacetime life, it creates impossible hopes for the Israelis and impossible tasks for the Palestinians.
240. arkymalarky - Oct. 30, 1998 - 2:44 PM PT
109,
"At present, they are receiving something for bad behavior and exercise of pure weakness."
What do you mean by that? Most Palestinians are not terrorists and it is punishing them to remove the possibility of a settlement because of the acts of extremists.
241. RustlerPike - Oct. 30, 1998 - 10:33 PM PT
Wombat:
Terror attacks are unbearable, and cannot be a regular part of peacetime life. When's the last time a Mexican or Canadian blew up an American school bus? Trust me, these things drive one mad with rage.
You're right, though, that the situation is unbearable from the Palestinian side as well. Having a bunch of racist, arrogant, armed settlers strutting around in your land like they owned it is unbearable. And it's true the settlers are violent people, and occasionally kill people, though usually after being provoked (e.g. - a settler shooting into a crowd while having his car pelted with stones).
On the other hand, the settlers don't have organizations openly and actively devoted to killing Palestinian civilians.
Then again, the Arabs living within the green line, i.e. pre-1967 Israel, don't go around armed, do not - as a rule - provoke the Israeli populace (something some of the settlers do regularly), and don't get Palestinian armed patrols to escort their kids' school buses to school.
So what I'm saying is - the situation makes it much easier for the Jews to drive the Arabs in the West Bank wild, just by being there and living their lives. They don't have to blow up school buses to do it. Just drive them around.
242. jonathanferguso - Oct. 31, 1998 - 1:01 AM PT
I think the Jews and Muslims should renounce their pathetic misguided faiths, embrace Christ, and live in peace and harmony, glorifying God.
243. RustlerPike - Oct. 31, 1998 - 3:12 AM PT
What church do we join, Jonathan? There's so many to choose from!
244. jonathanferguso - Oct. 31, 1998 - 3:17 AM PT
That was just a joke, RP. Like most people, I don't think that permanent peace is possible. Too much bad blood.
245. RustlerPike - Oct. 31, 1998 - 9:26 PM PT
Now this Iraq thing has started again. Oy va-avoy.
246. RustlerPike - Oct. 31, 1998 - 9:33 PM PT
I've had a pet theory for years, since the Gulf War actually, that one day Saddam and the Palestinians would attack Israel simultaneously. It sounds pretty implausible, till you remember how Palestinians cheered from their rooftops as scuds fell on Tel Aviv.
247. ptboya - Nov. 1, 1998 - 4:11 PM PT
True Rustler, but that's kind of like the Amerinds cheering on the French against the British. From the POV of Palestinians the enemy of my enemy is my friend. It could be martians for all that matters. Still, let me add another oy-va to the prospect of a resuscitated, unreconstructed Saddam playing to the Arab street by sticking his nose in wherever he doesn't belong. Nothing good can come of that. I suspect the US State Dep't., at least, still wants to keep Saddam in his box. Sec. Cohen's threat today, that bombing may result from non-cooperation, so indicates.
248. RustlerPike - Nov. 2, 1998 - 12:20 AM PT
ptboya:
A short Hebrew & Yiddish lesson, if you don't object:
*Oy veh*, or *oy vey*, is Yiddish. *Oy* is an exclamation, and *veh* is "pain", in German too. So *oy vey* means, "oh, pain". As in - "oy veh, the pain you cause me. Why don't you call? Mrs. Morganstern's children call her every day like clockwork, from New York!"
*Oy va-avoy* is a Hebrew exclamation, composed of:
1. *oy*
2. *va-* ("and")
3. *avoy* (another weird word, sort of like "woe" in English. *avoy le-* means "woe unto...").
I don't know if the *oy* comes from Yiddish, or how old this expression is. Perhaps it is a relatively recent combination between Yiddish *oy* and Hebrew *avoy*?
Also: how serious do you think the US is about containing Saddam? Judging by what Scott Ritter says - it's not.
249. RustlerPike - Nov. 2, 1998 - 1:34 AM PT
I just saw on CNN one of the candidates for senator in New York called the other a "putzhead" and got in trouble. Don't underestimate the importance of Yiddish lessons!
250. wexxford1 - Nov. 2, 1998 - 6:33 AM PT
RustlerPike.The Putz and Schmuck show ? That's phhfft! ...gone with the PR wind.Next on the radar screen for discussion :Hollywood is now casting " Divide and Conquer" starring The Seven Sisters and Western Geophysical.Got a walkon role for Netanyahoo,with the little king playing hisself.
251. wexxford1 - Nov. 2, 1998 - 6:36 AM PT
Rusatlerpike . Unbearable is it / Check out the buness records. You'll
see there that the biggest new business in Israel-Palestineland is--yeah,a casino ! When the slot machine enters as a job creating device, the fix is in boyo.
252. marjoribanks - Nov. 2, 1998 - 6:55 AM PT
Pike,
Your fears regarding a joint attact from "the Palestinians" and Saddam are quite fantastical. Saddam is mostly incapable of launching any such serious assault and "the Palestinians" would lose immediately whether joined from afar or on their own. In fact, I think it is silly bogeyman fears like this that fuel so much of the paranoid behavior exhibited on all sides in the Middle East.
I have indicated before, and today is a good day to bring it up, that the greatest threat to the peace accords comes from Israel itself. To date, the single greatest blow to the Oslo process was delivered when Rabin was assassinated. He was that rare breed of capable statesman: the visionary. When replaced by the Netanyahoos, the atmosphere for peace markedly deteriorated and the latter's pandering has helped no-one, not the sane Israelis, not the Palestinians, and not the rest of the world.
I have some hopes for Barak. If anyone can be said to be Rabin-like, it's him.
253. ptboya - Nov. 2, 1998 - 7:54 AM PT
RP…
I stand corrected. I had wondered about the spelling you had used since I've normally seen "oy vey." I did not realize it was Hebrew.
I don't believe Ritter. I think he's a loose cannon with a political agenda. Purists are not cut out to be diplomats.
The US is only too glad to flex its muscles against bad boys. It's a macho rite that plays well to the American street. As long as Saddam does not garner support for ending the embargo from Egypt and the Saudis, the US will continue to gleefully bludgeon him.
254. ptboya - Nov. 2, 1998 - 8:01 AM PT
marjori…
Though in principle I agree with your last post, I think Netanyahu serves as the Nixon of this peace process. The assassination of Rabin exposed a chasm between left and right in Israel that could conceivably have lead to civil war. If the right had felt itself shut out of the process, peace would have been, in a sense, not ratified by the body politic. Much as I dislike the politics and worldview of the Netanyahus, I think without their participation, peace is impossible.
255. Random - Nov. 2, 1998 - 9:38 AM PT
Ritter is not a loose cannon. That fact appears verified since Saddam
wants Butler removed, too.
Part of the problem in middle east is
Allbright who is not really ready for prime time. Hillary Rodham Clinton should keep her mouth shut because stupid as she is she causes problems with irresponsible remarks. It is none of Hillary's business to be making announcements about Palestinian lands or anything else. She hasn't been elected by anyone to say one word representative of the American people.
Allbright made the comment that 'Scott Ritter didn't have a clue' which substantially proves she doesn't have the first diplomatic credential. As Forest Gump says, "Stupid is as stupid does."
The Clinton administration to
serve its own political purpose stirred up all this trouble. Now Arafat as
well as Netanyahu are in peril from assasins. Situation is worrisome! What the
hell are the CIA doing in this? Frankly, I do not trust anything Clintons do or
are behind! When is the last time they ever did anything in the best interest
of this country? Never!
256. Wombat - Nov. 2, 1998 - 11:01 AM PT
Rustler:
I was about to correct your Yiddish too! Fortunately I read on, and am enlightened.
Let me reiterate, no one in this atmosphere can demand or promise that terrorism be eradicated. While I agree that mass bombings cannot be tolerated, I would argue that if an Israeli national finds him or herself in the wrong place at the wrong time, as has happened and will continue to happen, such a killing must not be allowed to scupper the larger agreement. This is not to say that the apprehension and prosecution of those who did the killing should not take place.
257. RustlerPike - Nov. 3, 1998 - 4:54 AM PT
marj:
I voted Peres in the last elections, but I can't stand the guy. He's a putzhead and a slime. He has the fakest smile I've ever seen on anyone, he's as smarmy a politician as you'll encounter anywhere, and I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to have been some kind of foreign agent in the end (OK - I'd be a little surprised). All his talk about a "New Middle East" is so much crap. As if the Arabs can be bought with foreign investments, and made to forget their national and religious aspirations.
He talked peace but launched the "Grapes of Wrath" operation as a ploy to win the last elections - and lost them, because he always lost elections, because deep down inside the Israelis know he can't be trusted.
You know, the atmosphere in Israel at the time preceding Rabin's murder was that this guy was selling the country out, and giving the Arabs anything and everything they wanted, always justifying them no matter how murderous and slimey they were. Rabin was extremely uncomfortable with Oslo, and vaccilated for months. But he had to make up his mind (if only to kep from going insane) and he recognized that there was a tremendous lot to be gained from a handshake with Arafat: finally, after close to 50 years of pariah status, Israel would gain recognition of its legitimacy, and once it was recognized, it would be nearly impossible to delegitimize it again.
The Palestinians got the short end of the stick: they recognized Israel, in return for a promise. Rabin may have wanted to give the Palestinians more then what Netanyahu is giving them, but had he tried, all hell would have broken loose in the territories. The alternative to Rabin being assassinated (which was a horrible blow and a tragedy I feel as deeply today as I did when it happened) was civil war. In either case, returning the West Bank - or most of it - would not have been achieved peacefully.
258. RustlerPike - Nov. 3, 1998 - 5:09 AM PT
The irony is that, in a way, it was the young Rabin who killed the old one. Rabin the IDF Chief of Staff in 1967 was in charge of the forces that captured the West Bank and Gaza. What followed was national ecstasy. It started with the secular Israeli majority which fought and won the war, but eventually spread into the religious population, and combined with latent messianism to create the *mitnakhalim*, or settlers - a hybrid of the fighting Sabra and the religious Jew.
Though Rabin was infamous in the settlements for pronouncements about being willing to have to get a visa to visit Hebron, and comparing the settlers' to propellors (the idea being that they could spin all they want, he could care less), it was the IDF's victory in 1967 and the subsequent Labor governments' support of the first settlers which set the ball rolling. When he tried to stop it, some 30 years later, it crushed him.
259. wexxford1 - Nov. 3, 1998 - 5:12 AM PT
News on the ethnic front.Swiss records say that the well-reviewed,much awarded ,well publicized book "Fragments"--the famous Holocaust memoir by Benjamin Wilkomirski ,was a fake.
As a backdrop to the Isreal-Palestinian circus, this is distressing.Could it be that the literary backdrop to the Northern Irish circus also contained a fake book? And what might be the title of that well-publicized,well reviewed phony Irish memoir ?
260. ptboya - Nov. 3, 1998 - 5:43 AM PT
"Ritter is not a loose cannon. That fact appears verified since Saddam wants Butler removed, too."
And what appears to be "verified" for you due to the fact that Butler publicly and forcefully rebuts Ritter? Your fact doesn't logically lead to your conclusion.
261. marjoribanks - Nov. 3, 1998 - 6:58 AM PT
Rustler,
257 and 258 are very good posts, thank you. I hope you'll give us more information in the same vein.
I agree with you re: Peres (and so does Barak, apparently). It is a great pity that Labour headed into the elections immediately after the Rabin assassination with such a unregenerate pol at the top of the ticket. If Peres had given way to Barak at that early point, there is no telling how different the situation may have been today.
262. RustlerPike - Nov. 3, 1998 - 10:33 PM PT
marj:
Thanks for the compliment! I'll do my best to post - I've been working hard lately and there are municipal elections here which I'm volunteering in (polls are on Nov. 10th), so I have less time than usual this week. I'm still hoping a Palestinian - or any other Arab - will participate.
263. Wombat - Nov. 4, 1998 - 11:39 AM PT
Rustler:
Is putz-head or its Hebrew equivalent a common insult in Israel? In the New York Jewish circles that I was part of, we never used such an expression. "Dick-head" is a common Italian insult. I suspect D'Amato was transliterating. I am amazed that no one has called the media on this. Anyway he lost, the testa di cazzo!
264. rickc2000 - Nov. 4, 1998 - 4:01 PM PT
Now that the US election are over how soon will the US launch air strikes against Iraq? I suggest it will be soon, and may have occured over the past weekend if not for the uS elections.
265. RustlerPike - Nov. 4, 1998 - 8:58 PM PT
rickc:
Don't you feel the US has been rather averse to going to war against Iraq? Please answer before this thread is killed.
266. RustlerPike - Nov. 4, 1998 - 9:02 PM PT
Wom:
As far as I know, putzhead, or putzkopf, which is probably what the Yiddish translation would be, is not a common expression. Probably the Fonz thought it sounded less dirty that way. In what forum did he say it?
267. iswool - Nov. 5, 1998 - 7:18 AM PT
Rustler:
FORMER Sen. D'Amato said it in a private meeting with Jewish leaders, including Former NYC Mayor Ed Koch. The issue wasn't really what he said, but rather that he immediately denied having said it. In typical American political fashion, it wasn't the infraction itself, but rather the "cover-up" that caused him the greatest harm. US (and perhaps world) politicians are deaf and dumb to this simple rule of politics.
268. RustlerPike - Nov. 5, 1998 - 8:28 AM PT
Wom: is the Ferrari "Testa Rossa" a redhead then?
269. RustlerPike - Nov. 5, 1998 - 8:49 AM PT
"If Peres had given way to Barak at that early point, there is no telling how different the situation may have been today".
You're right, but Peres just refuses to die, even now. He's always coming up with schemes to make Barak miserable. The latest was his - and his faction's - support for the Likud's candidate for mayor of Jerusalem. Prior to that, he came up with a plan to give Netanyahu a "safety net" in the Knesset if he made a peace deal (Barak wants to bring Netanyahu down anyway). He is, as Rabin wrote in his autobiography, "an indefatigable schemer".
The truth is though, that had Rabin not been assassinated, and had elections been held at the time they were held, I think Labor would've been trounced. The only thing that brought them close to Likud, electorally, was the heavy shadow of guilt the assassination cast on them.
Now, settlers are complaining that the assassination has made it impossible for them to effectively protest against Netanyahu's peace deal. Anyone using harsh terms to describe the deal or Netanyahu is immediately labeled an "inciter" and risks arrest. Words like "traitor" are not allowed, being seen as words that lead to murder.
270. RustlerPike - Nov. 5, 1998 - 8:58 AM PT
I remember Netanyahu speaking in the Knesset after the assassination. He found a way to bring up his brother Yoni, the commander of Sayeret Matkal who was killed at Entebbe, in his speech. He does that when pressed against a wall. Yoni is one of Israel's great hero-figures: he was good looking (even better than his brother, I think), studied at Harvard, and died commanding the Entebbe raid... what more could you ask for in a hero?
I thought it was a pretty low thing to do, even for a politician. But it seemed to work. The words "Yoni" and "Entebbe" have a lot of magical power out here, still.
271. marjoribanks - Nov. 5, 1998 - 8:59 AM PT
Pike,
And thank God for that. Israeli politics is quite remarkable for the level of invective that is thrown around. One would think that words like 'Nazi' would be rarely used, let alone charged words (in the context) like 'Arab' or 'Traitor' but no, they're tossed around all the time. I personally could not believe the way that Rabin was vilified, especially before the assasination but even after! The rhetoric is quite out of hand and strict measures to retain sanity are required, because there is no doubt that people feel empowered to act in intolerant and vicious ways because of the atmosphere of distrust and outright hatred that is created.
I have zero sympathy for the settlers and their "right" to slander their political opponents. And it all stems back to nonsensical ideas about divine mandate. If the settlers weren't allowed to feel self-righteous and 'holier-than-thou' to the point of untouchability, they'd get a rude awakening from the vast majority of Israelis who are both sane and secular.
272. marjoribanks - Nov. 5, 1998 - 9:02 AM PT
Pike,
It is clear that Bibi gets unbelievable political mileage out of his brother's hero status. I wonder why that aura still boosts him, I mean it's pretty damn clear that Bibi is no hero.
273. CalGal - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:03 AM PT
Apparently there was a car bomb explosion at the opening of a marketplace in Jerusalem.
They had unedited videotape on TV--it's on CNN right now.
274. gilro1 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 4:13 AM PT
marj:
"If the settlers weren't allowed to feel self-righteous and 'holier-than-thou' to the point of untouchability, they'd get a rude awakening from the vast majority of Israelis who are both sane and secular".
The problem is, there is no one to prevent the settlers' feeling holier-than-thou. You see, in Israeli society, there are two competing value systems: the traditional, Jewish one, which glorifies going to the synagogue, praying devoutly, keeping the Sabbath, etc., and the modern Zionist value system, which glorifies going to the army, serving in elite units, and creating Jewish settlements where there were none.
Foreword: Generally speaking, the settlers come from the stream in Israeli society called *kipot srugot*, or "knitted yarmulkas". Their yarmulkas are usually knitted for them by their sisters, girlfriends, wives, etc. The *kipot srugot* wear "regular" clothes, go to see films, keep a TV at home, study most everything, including stuff like physics. They consider themselves Zionists, by and large.
They serve in the army, and of late have become dominant in the elite units and among the younger officers, possibly even more so than the kibbutz youth, who used to dominate the army elite. The top brass of the army is still secular, though that may also eventually change.
(cont.)
275. rustlerpike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 4:16 AM PT
I agree with everything gilro1 said. gilro1 - can I pick up where you left off?
276. gilro1 - Nov. 6, 1998 - 4:19 AM PT
Sure, rus. G'rightahead...
277. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 6, 1998 - 5:10 AM PT
Rus, Gil:
You made your point. No need for two IDs just to keep the thread alive.
278. rustlerpike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 5:51 AM PT
Heh heh. Actually - I wanted to get an Arab name and pretend I was a Palestinian, but Slate didn't let me choose my ID, so I got stuck with gilro1. There wasn't much point hiding behind that. Then I forgot about the whole idea, and only when I had posted did I see that I was posting as gilro1.
279. RustlerPike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 7:42 AM PT
So anyways, the point I was making was that these guys, the *kipot srugot*, figure they're better than the non-Zionist religious, because they do all the Zionist stuff, and that they're better than the Zionists, because they do all the religious stuff.
The secular Zionist majority is divided: there is a large part of this population which is Sephardic, and tends to be more "traditional". They don't keep the Sabbath or go to synagogue regularly, but they may keep some rules of *kashrut* - like not eating milk with meat. Then again - they may not do that either, but are less anti-religion than the *ashkenazim*, whose parents brought with them socialist, anti-religious doctrines from Europe.
Some *sefaradim* blame the *ashkenazi* elite for forcing them - or their parents - to shed their religion when they came to Israel, back when Labor was in power and seemed to be eternally so. When you figure in those who see themselves as "traditional", besides the religious, only about half of Israel's Jews are secular.
This secular population was devoutly Zionist until the last two decades. As Zionism has fulfilled its goal, it has become growingly irrelevant. Sacrificing for one's country seems like a silly thing to do, nowadays. The *kibbutzim* are sinking, or becoming "privatized". The settlers are the only idealistic movement remaining. They are, if you will, Zionism's spare fuel tank.
280. RustlerPike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 9:00 AM PT
(cont.)
Now, if you ask me, these guys are unjustified in their arrogance towards the non-religious, if only because the early Zionist settlers did not have a state and an army to back and protect them. They *created* the state and the army.
Then there's the messianic element which pervades these guys' thinking. Many of them have, framed and hanging on the walls in their houses, photomontages of the Temple Mount, photographed from the air, with the rebuilt Jewish Temple in place of the Mosque of Omar. They really feel this is in the making, and that the creation of Israel is part of God's plan for the redemption of the Land of Israel and rebuilding the Temple.
And of course, there's their arrogance, and often blatant racism (if racism is applicable when talking about people as genetically related as the Jews and Arabs are) towards the Palestinians. And a lot of these guys are just seriously kooky.
281. Wombat - Nov. 6, 1998 - 12:00 PM PT
Rustler:
Where do the immigrants from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia fit in this spectrum?
282. RustlerPike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 10:41 PM PT
Wom:
The immigrants from the former S.U. (hey - why were those initials never used? Were they?) are mostly, I believe, secular, though some of their prominent representatives wear a *kipa*, or a cap (Minister Sharansky, the famous pint-sized ex-prisoner, wears an olive army cap. Probably he doesn't want to be labelled as belonging to a specific religious group). They tend to be right-wing. They have an understandable distaste for the Labor party (we were told not to use the color red in any of our leaflets in the local municipal elections for fear of alienating the ex-Sovs).
These guys had the *sekhel* to form their own party, and generally live in their own little world. Unlike previous waves of immigration, which were made to fit in whether they wanted to or not, these guys somehow got 'permission' to keep talking Russian, and stores and even governmental agencies put up signs in Russian to attract them. This was unheard of in the past - and is, I think, a sign of confidence: modern Hebrew, and Israeli culture in general, are no longer perceived as being threatened by the presence of 'foreign' elements.
(cont.)
283. BobaFett - Nov. 6, 1998 - 10:48 PM PT
Ruster:
Late last night, you posted in Suggestions that you were about to detonate a bomb in a Jerusalem market to generate interest in the Israel-Palestine thread.
As I shut off my computer, Fox news told me that a bomb had just gone off.
Although I think the joke was not in very good taste, I have to admit you got me for a second. I thought, "Shit, maybe this guy is a radical Israeli."
And then I though: No, dummy, he'd have heard about it before you did.
284. RustlerPike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:07 PM PT
If you're asking why these guys are right-wing, I don't really know. I can guess though, that it has a lot to do with the anti-Semitism they suffered from in the S.U..
It may be a Russian thing, too - I remember my high school teacher, Mr Eichmann (who was a pathological liar, by the way. And yes, that was his name) teaching us Russian literature, and saying that Russian culture was all about strength and force. He gave as an example those dances they do, kicking their legs out from under themselves.
[The only immigrant group more right wing than the Russians is the American Jews. Those who aren't lefty liberals are these fanatic kooks who come directly from Brooklyn to Kiryat-Arba, looking to vent their aggressions on the po' Arabs. For some reason, they also tend to be disproportionally big, physically].
Now, the ex-S.U. guys number about 900 thousand, according to a recent study published in the papers. This is a humungously large minority: the ex-Morrocans are number 2, at around 500 thousand.
The ex-Ethiopians are a lot smaller numerically: I don't know if they are more than 80 or 90 thousand strong. Some of them were taken to settlements and became *kipot srugot* (they were made to put much of their old religion behind, in a very painful way that a lot of people found abhorrent, but typical of the religious establishment here). Some live in poverty, and others seem to be doing all right, as bank tellers, clerks, what not. The youth are very hip, and I personally think some of the women are ravishing - but then again, I have a weakness for Africans.
285. RustlerPike - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:10 PM PT
Boba:
Hah hah!!!
Now please help me keep this thread from dying by posting something on-topic! I'll gladly field questions.
286. BobaFett - Nov. 6, 1998 - 11:11 PM PT
Rustler:
I'm very sorry, but I don't know much about Israel and Palestine. I don't even know enought to ask good questions.
287. ptboya - Nov. 7, 1998 - 2:24 PM PT
It has always seemed to me that an important basis for much of the hostility between the various Israeli factions (see Rustler's posts above) runs along class lines. Rarely have I seen a class based analysis, yet it seems rather obvious, from afar, that much of the hostility directed at ashkenazi jews, and consequently the Labour party, is precisely because they are the wealthy elite. Netanyahu and the Likud have rather transparently exploited these class distinctions.
Ideological and religious reasoning certainly exacerbate class differences, but often they themselves arise coincidently with one's placement of self in the social heirarchy. Perhaps this is obvious to you Rustler, and is implicit in your analysis. But, it just occurred to me while reading your excellent observations that you might give us your take on this aspect of the factional conflicts in Israel.
288. MrSocko - Nov. 7, 1998 - 3:24 PM PT
Well, it was my great good fortune to have been back in the United States again over the past couple of weeks and to look at the Wye agreement close-up. I was far from impressed. Netanyahu's oily use of the Pollard case to pressure the Americans was disgraceful and showed the extent of his seriousness for the process. And although my Palestinian sympathies are fairly well known here, I was left unstirred by Arafat's performance in Maryland. As Jeff Jacoby (sp?) noted in The Boston Globe, here is a guy who signed his first peace agreement with Israel (the Oslo accord) in September 1993. He signed a second peace agreement (the Gaza-Jericho accord) in May 1994. He signed a third peace agreement (Oslo II) in September 1995. He signed a fourth peace agreement (the Hebron accord) in January 1997. Now he signs a document negotiated at the Wye Plantation, his fifth peace agreement with Israel in five years. Each and every time he has promised to delete the section of the Palestinian charter calling for Israel's destruction. Why has he been unwilling to follow through on this straightforward undertaking?
289. MrSocko - Nov. 7, 1998 - 3:32 PM PT
Message #272, marjoribanks:
Yoni Netanyahu's status in Israel crosses all party lines. If that has helped his brother's political career (which began long after the Ethiopia mission) then so fucking what?
boya, Message #287:
No, it doesn't seem "rather obvious, from afar, that much of the hostility directed at ashkenazi jews, and consequently the Labour party, is precisely because they are the wealthy elite." What piffle! European Jews are not an elite but the majority -- in both parties. Netanyahu has simply chosen to hold his nose and do a deal with the Orientals (as represented by the Shas Party) in order to hold together a coalition. If, as you say, the Likud has "transparently exploited these class distinctions," then why should it be that the same party conspired to thwart the upward political trend of its one notable Oriental Jew, David Levy.
290. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 6:54 AM PT
Psocko,
Re# 289, For your information, Yoni Netanyahu was the only Israeli commando killed at *Entebbe*. The place happens to be in Uganda, not Ethiopia.
As for your "point" it is meaningless breastbeating. Netanyahu repeatedly tries to earn sympathy and "hero" brownie points because his brother died a "martyrs" death.
291. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 6:58 AM PT
Huree Jamset Ram Singh:
Apologies. Yes, of course, it was Uganda (I was confusing it with the land of Pike's wife). The rest of your post is sheer nonsense.
292. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:01 AM PT
... Or was Mrs. Pike born in Kenya? I really can't remember...
293. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:02 AM PT
Psocko the expert,
Apologize again, you know-nothing, Pike's wife is Kenyan. I realize that you think "they" all look alike, but there are separate countries inhabited by Africans, you know.
294. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:04 AM PT
Tsk tsk!
295. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:06 AM PT
Huree Jamset Ram Singh:
You ain't the voice of Africa, son!
296. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:09 AM PT
Psocko the muddled,
You ain't the voice of anyone other than sheep-fixated hopelessly-antipodean vaguely-hebraic blusterers.
297. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:12 AM PT
"sheep-fixated"? Of course.
"hopelessly-antipodean"? Wot does that mean?
"vaguely-hebraic"? Erm...
(Style tip: The last two don't require hyphens, son.)
298. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:18 AM PT
Note to all: Notice how Huree Jamset Ram Singh, merely by dint of being born in a subcontinental colony, seems to feel that he is a complete authority on the non-white cultures of the world. Such pretensions!
299. marjoribanks - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:18 AM PT
Psocko the pedant,
I like hyphenated insults. From where I sit, they appear to get the point across more vehemently and more colorfully.
Style tip: look up an atlas the next time you want to talk about Africa.
300. MrSocko - Nov. 8, 1998 - 7:21 AM PT
How on earth does a compound improve an insult?