102. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:01 PM PT
Well, isn't any one of the 80% + part of the English speaking world that supposedly supports the US and British attack on Iraq going to speak up? Anyone want to talk about how the rescue workers picking through the rubble over there deserve what they are going to get?
103. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:05 PM PT
Toonces,
What do you think should be done with/to Saddam Hussein?
104. SeaSailor - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:06 PM PT
Clinton has a good reputation as a peace-maker on the international scene. I'll trust his judgement that the bombing was necessary to show them he has not forgotten, despite the impending impeachment.
Do you think the next Democratic president will be run out of office too? The Republicans tried once to make it impossible for the Democrates to win the Presidency. They want free elections like Mexico where no matter the issues the same party always wins. George Will call this the "Latin-Americanization" of American law. Get the picture.
There are no illegal wars under Republicans because they get to define what is legal and they do not like the Constitution. Anything Clinton does is automatically scrutinized and if they can't find fault with it they make noise about impeachment./
105. Raskolnikov - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:19 PM PT
toonces: Aside from the fact that I don't know the veracity of your quotes (The one tying DU to Guld War Syndrome was the one which caused me to read very skeptically. From what I have heard, the jusry is still out on that), I guess that admidst all the "collateral damage" that will kill and injure many Iraqi civilians, speculation about the long term health consequences of the shells we are using strikes me quibbling.
106. Raskolnikov - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:19 PM PT
toonces: Aside from the fact that I don't know the veracity of your quotes (The one tying DU to Guld War Syndrome was the one which caused me to read very skeptically. From what I have heard, the jusry is still out on that), I guess that admidst all the "collateral damage" that will kill and injure many Iraqi civilians, speculation about the long term health consequences of the shells we are using strikes me *as* quibbling.
107. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:21 PM PT
"What do you think should be done with/to Saddam Hussein?"
He should be dragged out into the light. Iraq should be drawn into interraction and dialog with the rest of the world as much as possible.
108. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:23 PM PT
Toonces,
So it is fair to assume that you do not support any military action against Saddam Hussein? Do you sympathize with him?
109. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:27 PM PT
Raskolnikov -
I don't know. Killing a whole generation of Iraqi children with hideous, painful diseases seems significant to me.
There is already quite a bit of evidence that depleted uranium is causing disease in Iraq. Take a closer look, if you can stand to.
110. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:33 PM PT
Jenerator -
I don't support chemical/biological/nuclear warfare against Iraqis for any purpose. I'm not sure whether Saddam Hussein is a better or worse person than Bill Clinton is.
111. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:35 PM PT
Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons on his neighbors and the US.
112. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:37 PM PT
Clinton uses chemical weapons on Iraqis, Afghanis and Sudanese.
113. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:40 PM PT
Re: Message #110
I think Saddam Hussein is a better person than Slobovodan Milosodick the Serb guy. I would put him about on par with Benjamin Nethanyahu.
114. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:40 PM PT
So who are you more sympathetic towards, Americans or Hussein?
115. CharlieL - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:42 PM PT
Message #77 - Jenerator: "he and his fellow students suport the US's decision and respect that we will not bomb on Ramadan."
Ramadan is more than one day, it is approximately a month long. So one would not bomb "on" Ramadan, but "during" Ramadan. I doubt if the attacks were to continue that they would be suspended for an entire month because of Ramadan.
116. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:46 PM PT
Message #113
So what, Saddam Hussein is just a misunderstood wretch?
117. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:46 PM PT
charlieL,
I know that Ramadan lasts longer than a day, no need to get anal about semantics.
118. creece - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:46 PM PT
All day today, I've thought that someone should tell Sen. Trent Lott that his blatant, public second-guessing of the President's motives was downright unAmerican.
I'm no idiot. I see the coincidence. However, I really believe that when our troops are engaged, Lott and his colleagues should get in line and support the President ... provided his action is justified. This action, clearly, is justified.
The best thing I've seen about the ridiculousness of the Republicans' reaction was in today's
"Dispatch" by David Plotz. You should all check it out.
119. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:49 PM PT
Message #109
Depleted Uranium is used almost exclusively in armor penetrating rounds would only be causing diseases among people closely exposed to it. I doubt very much that Iraqi children are crawling around on blown up tank hulls. The tank battles were very far away from where the children are. You're getting a little hysterical here. Malnutrition is more than adequate explanation for all the disaeases the Iraqi children are suffering.
120. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:51 PM PT
Message #112
I suppose you have some evidence to support this?
121. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:52 PM PT
Re: Message #116
Whatever is wrong with Saddam Hussein, dropping chemical/biological/nuclear bombs on Iraq will not fix it.
122. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:53 PM PT
toonces is just trolling. Ignore him.
123. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:53 PM PT
But bringing him "to the light" will sure fix it!
124. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:54 PM PT
Message #118 And as Plotz pointed out, why name the mission after Rommel?
125. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:55 PM PT
AuNaturel -
" I doubt very much that Iraqi children are crawling around on blown up tank hulls."
They are bombing urban Baghdad, you idiot. They are bombing children sleeping in their beds. 10,000 people are going to be killed, by Pentagon estimates.
126. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:56 PM PT
Azure,
Again, I must ask you WHAT EXACTLY do you think should be the course of action taken by America (and the world for that matter) wrt Saddam Hussein. So far, you have dodged the question and have insinuated that Saddam is no worse than Clinton, and just as bad (??) as Netanyahu.
It seems to me that you are anti-Israeli, anti-American, and pro-Hussein. Is this accurate?
127. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 1:59 PM PT
AuNatural -
Follow up on some of the stuff in this link for more information.
Message #100
128. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:02 PM PT
toonces:
Either you are so ignorant and/or hysterical you are incapable of rational thought or you are trolling. In neither case are you worth talking to. Demostrate that we use NBC warfare on Iraqis and fired antitank rounds into Iraqi cities and cite the source for the pentagon estimate you made up, or shut up.
129. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:04 PM PT
Jenerator -
You seem to be saying that you support the poisioning of Iraqi citizens with highly carcinogenic toxins.
130. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:09 PM PT
Toon - As I pointed out in the Isreal thread, and Au stated above, depleted uranium is used in anti-tank penetrators fired from A-10 aircraft and M1A2 tanks and not in bombs. You then said that you had seen some theoretical piece on CNN about the possibility of usind depleted uranium penetrators on anti-bunker bombs. I am unaware of any such bomb in production and none of the links you provided refered to such bombs. You state in Message #97 that Tomahawks have DU penetrators, please cite the source for this claim. DU in solid form is not particularly radioactive, so the child playing with the A-10 shell is unlikely to be in much danger unless she is sleeping with it like a stuffed animal, or whittling shavings off of the thing.
This is not to say that there are no ill effects resulting from the use of DU, but compared to other things that are happening this is a pretty minor issue. Also, the US is using DU for its effectiveness in penetrating armor, not, as you state, to poison the population.
131. Jenerator - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:10 PM PT
VonK!!!!!!!;-)
132. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:11 PM PT
re Message #125, "(t)hey are bombing urban Baghdad, you idiot", yet I knew this idiocy would soon surface.
To the Village Idiot Posing as Toonces;
No, they are not bombing urban Baghdad, Idiot, as witness the news film taken real-time last night showing couples strolling even as the skies lit up from AA fire;
No, they are not bombing urban Baghdad, Idiot, as witness the Western reporters recounting traffic jams as usual in urban Baghdad and children as school;
No, they are not bombing urban Baghdad, Idiot, for bombing of an urban area is such as you in all your wisdom obviously have no experience of.
133. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:11 PM PT
AuNaturel -
Re: Message #128
It may take more guts than you have to face the truth about this.
134. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:14 PM PT
The comments on depleted uranium as used in armor-piercing rounds are exactly as I too understood. The very idea that live uranium from spent rounds would be lying about is credible only to the gullible like The Village Idiot.
135. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:15 PM PT
Any weapons that were used in Iraq were also used in Kuwait City. In fact the largest tank battle of the war took place in the Kuwait City airport. That is where the most depleted uranium shells would have been used. No reports of "strange diseases" in children have been forthcoming from the Kuwaitis. Maybe we should ask the them how they feel about it.
136. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:15 PM PT
vonKreedon -
I don't have time to look up web resources for you right now. That's were the information is, if you want to see for yourself. If I have a couple of hours to goof off later, I will point out some details.
137. Ronski - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:16 PM PT
The Pentagon has said that naming the Iraq mission after Rommel was just a "coincidence," that the use of the fox name was to indicate "surprise."
I think it is another indication of the failure of government near-monopoly public schools to teach students anything about world history, but I haven't the energy to face more withering attacks from public education supporters in the School Voucher Thread at this moment, so I'm hiding my opinion here. (i)
138. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:17 PM PT
Scott - Actually it is quite likely that there are A-10 shell lying around some of the battle areas, we fired quite a lot of the things. Now, those areas are confined to SE Iraq and Kuwait and out in open areas rather than urban because that's where the armor was.
139. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:19 PM PT
ScottLoar -
Re: Message #132
Dear MrKnowItAll:
I don't remember how many times you have been absolutely fucking wrong when you corrected me, but I can remember how many times you have admitted it; zero. You are wrong about this, too.
140. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:20 PM PT
Au - The largest tank battle took place at the Kuwait airport? This is news to me. My understanding was that the largest tank battle was 73 Easting, in the desert of SE Iraq, between a brigade of the Republican Guard and elements of a US Armord Cav. regiment. Tell me more about the battle at the airport. This would have been between elements of the Marines and non-Republican Guard units, neither of which are not going to be armor heavy (by todays standards).
141. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:21 PM PT
vonKreedon: I said live uranium, meaning uranium that is not degraded, and so active and harmful upon casual contact. Of course I know where the armor was.
142. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:23 PM PT
Scott - I wondered about your use of "live uranium". Yes, there would be NO undepleted uranium in the area as a result of the allied ordance.
143. BobaFett - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:24 PM PT
Guys:
Depleted uranium is not radioactive, but it is toxic.
144. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:25 PM PT
To The Village Idiot Posing as Toonces;
No, I have never corrected or addressed you before today. Today, I simply cannot resist redressing your idiocy. And you would do well to poll others and discover that I do admit error, more so than most, and I reserve most comment to areas in which I have sure knowledge. But you, Idiot, are quickly climbing to very rarefied heights of indiscriminate idiocy.
145. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:26 PM PT
Tomahawk cruise missiles do not have du penetrators. DU penetrators are only really useeful on high velocity rounds, which cruise misiles are definitely not (4-500 mph). Penetration on cruise missiles comes primarily from the shaped charge explosive warhead.
Happen to be very familiar with the GBU (penetrating) bomb series also. No du in those either. Lots of steel with a tungsten carbide tip.
In point of fact no du is used in ANY explosive round that I am aware of, only armor penetrators. In AP rounds the objective is simply to punch a hole. The shock of the impact(s) alone is enough to disable the vehicle and crew.
146. keithkrueger - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:27 PM PT
Trent Lott should have the balls to get on national TV--like his colleague from the Democratic side, Joseph Lieberman, did last night on The Newshour--and explain why he cannot support the President...For anyone interested, the UNSCOM inspector Scott Ritter who resigned recently has written an interesting article in the New Republic (Dec 21 edition--it was written before the Dec 16 bombing)and provides some background understanding from someone who was actually in Iraq trying to prove the deceit.
147. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:28 PM PT
vonKreedon, yes, I know. Believe me, I know.
Bobbafett, yes, I know. Believe me, I know.
And none of this has anything to do with my original comment.
148. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:28 PM PT
VK.
Absolutely correct. Marines vrs. nonRG troops. Sherridens and M-60s vrs. T-54s, T-62s
149. BobaFett - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:28 PM PT
Au:
Hasn't du been used as an armor as well? I thought it was used for a time until it was discoverd that the du dust (released by hits) was toxic.
150. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:29 PM PT
Scott - Can we call you "He who knows"? [;-}
151. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:34 PM PT
Bob - Some tanks have a thin layer of DU as part of the armor laminate, I think that the M1A2 has this armor, but I'm not sure. There is a neutron burst when a DU round hits armor and a greater burst when the armor contains DU, but at that point the radiation is the least of the crew's worries.
152. Ronski - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:46 PM PT
Earlier today the AP reported that Russian nationalists in the Duma were trying to pass a resolution imploring Monica Lewinsky to intervene with President Clinton to stop the bombing. They didn't think of asking Hillary, apparently.
153. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:47 PM PT
DU is used in AP rounds primarily for the mass. Any release of neutron radiation is a byproduct.
154. vonKreedon - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:58 PM PT
Absolutely, the neutron burst is insignificant to the use and effectiveness of the round.
155. jonesatlaw - Dec. 17, 1998 - 2:59 PM PT
Try this on DU: ANL
156. Wombat - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:00 PM PT
I would also be very leery of any book that features Ramsey Clark as a participant. You know it is going to feature every conceivable anti-US and anti-Western interpretation of events.
Toonces:
You think that Saddam is "nicer" than Milosevic? I suggest you do some reading around the subject. Alexander Cockburn has had some pretty pungent things to say about Saddam. Also Zed Books in Britain has published at least one book on Saddam's regime. Note that I am assuming you are of the political left, and have suggested readings from left-wing authors and publishers (personally, I think that Cockburn is a horses ass, but he is correct in his view of Saddam). Ramsey Clark is the closest thing to a traitor in the United States in this day and age.
157. jonesatlaw - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:07 PM PT
Argonne Labs
158. jonesatlaw - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:09 PM PT
Sorry I can't get the link to work. Maybe tommorrow- It's argonne labs website.
159. Wombat - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:17 PM PT
Toonces:
I didn't realize you were Azure NW, otherwise I would have ignored you. I take it that you did not follow my suggestion several months ago that you inform yourself more about Iraq under Saddam.
Since you appear to value human life so much, I will look forward to reading what you have to say when Saddam uses NBC weapons against either his own people or some unfortunate country in the region. No doubt you'll figure out a way to blame the United States.
Go in peace.
160. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:27 PM PT
Wombat -
Please remember me when you discover everything I've said here today is true. I deserve that much this time.
161. BoomerJeff - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:34 PM PT
AuNaturel #135
"No reports of strange diseases in children have been forthcoming from the Kuwaitis."
What an absurd statement. Are the Kuwaitis requied to "report" diseases to you? How could you possibly know if there are any strange diseases in Kuwait? Do you believe that just because your favorite TV news show hasn't reported any diseases there aren't any?
162. BoomerJeff - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:36 PM PT
Ronski #137 is absolutely right!
Desert Fox indeed!
What 20something in the Pentagon came up with THAT one? You can be sure that she/he is up to the minute on all the most trendy vocabulary taboos as ordained by the Government/Media/Academic elite! Just a little short on recent history, though.
163. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:36 PM PT
"MOSCOW: Russian legislators agreed on Thursday to consider a motion appealing to Monica Lewinsky to help halt the American attack on Iraq.
``The state Duma appeals to Ms Lewinsky to undertake corresponding measures to restrain the emotions of Bill Clinton,'' said the motion by nationalist lawmaker Alexander Filatov.
The motion was approved on a vote in the Duma, the lower chamber of parliament, to be considered for inclusion in a broader resolution denouncing the attack on Iraq.
The attack by the United States and Britain on Iraq was condemned by almost all major political groups in Russia. The Communists, the largest party in the Duma, also mentioned Clinton and his relationship with the former White House intern.
``Many people link it with Clinton's impeachment and his intimate relations with a certain person, but if these relations develop into such acts of vandalism, than all of US democracy is worth a penny,'' communist leader Gennady Zyuganov told a Duma debate on the Iraqi crisis.(AP)"
164. BoomerJeff - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:39 PM PT
AuNaturel #135
"No reports of strange diseases in children have been forthcoming from the Kuwaitis."
What an absurd statement. Are the Kuwaitis requied to "report" diseases to you? How could you possibly know if there are any strange diseases in Kuwait? Do you believe that just because your favorite TV news show hasn't reported any diseases there aren't any?
Ronski #137 is absolutely right! Desert Fox indeed! What 20something in the Pentagon came up with THAT one? You can be sure that she/he is up to the minute on all the most trendy vocabulary taboos as ordained by the Government/Media/Academic elite!
Bill Clinton is running out of diversions. For almost a year he has successfully diverted attention from himself and his outrageous conduct to Ken Starr, Linda Tripp, and other bit players in the melodrama. This was a command performance of the OJ farce, and Starr, Tripp, Barr, Gingrich, et al took turns playing the Mark Furman part. The media obediently spent weeks telling us:
how mean Ken Starr was to Monica's mother;
what a low-down non-friend Linda was for recording Monica;
how incompetent the Paula Jones Legal team was;
how "partisan" the Republicans in Congress were (even though no more than 3 or 4 ever said a single word about the various Clinton scandals).
The trouble is, it's all old tired stuff now. The news media has stopped showing us tape of Starr taking out his trash and getting into his car. No more shots of Monica or her mom getting out of a car and climbing up the side steps to the court house. No more video of Linda Tripp walking to her car. Like Mark Furman, they've all faded into the past.
Like OJ, Bill Clinton is now alone, on center stage, with nobody to provide diversion.
So, yesterday he reached for that perfect supporting actor, that made-for-sound bite villain from central casting, Saddam of Iraq. As
165. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:41 PM PT
Boomer;
If there were disease in Kuwait, our friends at the anti-DU site Message #100 would surely be harping about it.
166. BoomerJeff - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:42 PM PT
Bill Clinton is running out of diversions. For almost a year he has successfully diverted attention from himself and his outrageous conduct to Ken Starr, Linda Tripp, and other bit players in the melodrama. This was a command performance of the OJ farce, and Starr, Tripp, Barr, Gingrich, et al took turns playing the Mark Furman part. The media obediently spent weeks telling us:
how mean Ken Starr was to Monica's mother;
what a low-down non-friend Linda was for recording Monica;
how incompetent the Paula Jones Legal team was;
how "partisan" the Republicans in Congress were (even though no more than 3 or 4 ever said a single word about the various Clinton scandals).
The trouble is, it's all old tired stuff now. The news media has stopped showing us tape of Starr taking out his trash and getting into his car. No more shots of Monica or her mom getting out of a car and climbing up the side steps to the court house. No more video of Linda Tripp walking to her car. Like Mark Furman, they've all faded into the past.
Like OJ, Bill Clinton is now alone, on center stage, with nobody to provide diversion.
So, yesterday he reached for that perfect supporting actor, that made-for-sound bite villain from central casting, Saddam of Iraq. As long as we'll fall for it he'll divert our attention to Saddam by dropping a Billion Dollars worth of bombs and missiles per hour on Iraq. (If only the diversion were as cheap as the I.C. investigation!)
The usual cast of characters, Al Gore, Gebhardt, Conniers, etc all appear on cue to excoriate the Republicans for doubting Clinton's sincerity.
Will it work? Will the media be diverted? Time will tell
167. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:57 PM PT
Perhaps someone else has already noted this but it seems strange that the administration thinks people should rally to their president no matter how much they dislike him, but don't understand (presumably) that in times of crisis Iraqis might feel the same way, thus strengthening Saddam, not weakening him.
168. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 3:58 PM PT
It didn't happen that way in 1990-1.
169. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:06 PM PT
MOSCOW (AP) -- Russian legislators considered a motion Thursday appealing to Monica Lewinsky to help halt the American attack on Iraq.
``The State Duma appeals to Ms. Lewinsky to undertake corresponding measures to restrain the emotions of Bill Clinton,'' said the motion by nationalist lawmaker Alexander Filatov.
Lawmakers in the Duma, the lower chamber of parliament, considered including the motion in a broader resolution denouncing the attack on Iraq. But seeking to speed up passage of the resolution, they approved it later Thursday without any additions. There was no separate vote on the Lewinsky amendment.
The attack by the United States and Britain on Iraq was condemned by almost all major political groups in Russia. The Communists, the largest party in the Duma, also mentioned Clinton and his relationship with the former White House intern.
``Many people link it with Clinton's impeachment and his intimate relations with a certain person, but if these relations develop into such acts of vandalism, than all of U.S. democracy is worth a penny,'' Communist leader Gennady Zyuganov told a Duma debate on the Iraqi crisis.
170. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:38 PM PT
Toonces is AzureNW, alias bombalurina, alias...? I can't keep track of all this shit. Had I known toonces was a regular here I wouldn't have bothered to comment. Flame on, toonces.
171. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:40 PM PT
Er, coral, shouldn't you be reading the posts here a little closer?
172. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:40 PM PT
I'm spending a few minutes looking up information on depleted uranium. Here is an interesting note:
/*
Pentagon DU expert Doug Rokke resigned last year, charging the military with a "deliberate cover-up" of DU's impact on U.S. troops in the Gulf region. His charge backed up veteran groups' claims that 400,000 vets had been exposed to DU.
*/
173. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:44 PM PT
Message #171 Ha, yes marj, I know you mentioned that it was ineffective earlier, in Message #35, but I was merely extending the idea to an analogy with Clinton's attitude.
174. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:48 PM PT
No reef, I am referring to your post #169 which is the same as my #163.
175. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:53 PM PT
Damn, I missed it, Banks. You're right. But give me a break, it was sandwiched in between BoomerJeff posts, after all.
176. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:55 PM PT
Reef,
Where'd you get yours from?
177. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:57 PM PT
Spuds posted something on Livingston so I went to Drudge to see if there were any links to Livingston stories and was slapped in the face with the above gem.
178. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:58 PM PT
This is an interesting site:
Out There in Iraq
179. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:00 PM PT
Reef,
I got mine from Times of India
180. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:07 PM PT
Iraqi cancer epidemic
Earlier I stumbled across a lenghty technical document detailing weapons that contain depleted uranium including Tomahawk missiles, but now I can't find it.
181. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:11 PM PT
toonces.
That is a very interesting site. I bookmarked it.
182. marjoribanks - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:12 PM PT
I meant the one in # 178.
183. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:18 PM PT
marjoribanks -
thanks!
184. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:18 PM PT
Yes, 178 was interesting. Also, Banks, I got yours to work and bookmarked it. Thanks. Apparently it sometimes adds the slate url to the beginning of urls, don't know why.
185. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:20 PM PT
This one is a bit shrill, but informative:
U.S. Accused Of Nuclear War Against Iraq
186. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:21 PM PT
Per "Out there in Iraq"
"He said depleted uranium was used to harden the cases of armor piercing shells and when they exploded..."
AP round do not explode. They punch holes and transfer kinetic energy through mechanical shock. The uranium is not used to harden cases. It is used to make the rounds more massive, thereby better able to punch holes. We use lead in bullets for the same reason. DU is much heavier than lead, so does the job much better.
187. toonces - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:29 PM PT
hummm... well, the link in Message #185 seems to be to UFO freaks. Some relevant titles, authors and dates are mentioned, though.
188. Ptoben - Dec. 17, 1998 - 6:45 PM PT
We spend big bucks on all these arm's and we need to use them for PR once in awhile. Except for the Germans in WW-1 & WW-2 there is usually no problem. Most other countries contain heathen's and except for a mistake now and then where we kill a few converted ones, it works out fine. After all the real church guys in the crusades made that mistake also.
189. jexster - Dec. 17, 1998 - 6:52 PM PT
Don't mess with POTUS!
"The attack intensified today as missiles pounded targets throughout Iraq. The flash from huge explosions and the brilliant red tracings of
antiaircraft fire lit up Baghdad skies."
Time to light up the US Congress.
190. jexster - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:04 PM PT
VK,
I too heard that the Abrams had depleted uranium armour. This site says its classified.
M1A2 Specs
191. jexster - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:16 PM PT
I like the T-90
192. BobaFett - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:46 PM PT
The M1A2 has "Chobham" armor, whatever the fuck that is. Tom Clancy gives most of the details away in his excellent book, Armored Cav. Why the military keeps things "classified" that they TELL everyone I have no idea.
193. jexster - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:13 PM PT
Cool Tanks Links
194. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 9:03 PM PT
I think the later M1As have the 120mm. gun.
If the Russians had the economy to build it with, the T-90 could be interesting. Not any kind of a match for an Abrams tho. Russian armor has always been about quantity more than quality.
I doubt if they'll be able to build enough to be any threat.
195. jexster - Dec. 17, 1998 - 9:05 PM PT
Au,
No expert here. I just think they look cool and never underestimate the T-34 boyz myself.
196. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 9:16 PM PT
I believe the T-34 series remains one of the most common tanks around. Still in service with lots of 3nd, 3rd and 4th world countries.
197. AuNaturel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 9:19 PM PT
I think the M1 has DU encased in steel body armor with the Chobham armour (which is lighter) in the turret. Don't ask me the details, tho. Think Chobham is a Brit invention using ceramics.
198. JJBiener - Dec. 17, 1998 - 9:27 PM PT
This is just too weird for words. Democrats drooling over armored vehicles and weaponry. Democratic Hawks calling for blood in the Middle East. Democrats calling for the overthrow of a foreign government. What happened to the Democratic Party?
199. BobaFett - Dec. 17, 1998 - 9:42 PM PT
Au:
Yes, it is ceramic. I think it's some kind of metal honeycomb with ceramic filling. And yes, it's a Brit invention, which debuted on the Chieftain, I believe.
Details can be found in Armored Cav, as I said. I just think it's funny that the military basically tells Clancy the basic details while their website states that the armor is "classified." I mean, is the term "Chobham armor" classified too?
As I'm sure everyone knows, "Classified," "confidential," and "top secret" information is stuff that just about everybody knows. The real secret classifications begin with "eyes only" and then through various code-names (even the classified code-names are themselves top secret). Moynihan wrote a book about this which I saw him hawking on Sixty Minutes.
200. resonance - Dec. 17, 1998 - 10:34 PM PT
Depleted uranium *is* radioactive. It is sufficiently radioactive that there are extensive rules and regulations regarding where and how it can be transported and stored. It puts off plenty of radiation, believe me -- I have worked at a cleanup laboratory on a site that manufactured depleted uranium antitank rounds, extruding them from depleted uranium billets, and that factory is still hot enough to make a Geiger counter sing four part harmony.
Of course, weapons grade uranium is about a hundred times as radioactive, but using such a statement to argue that depleted uranium isn't radioactive is like saying that since a tornado does less than a hundredth of the damage of a hurricane, it isn't really dangerous.