102. Seguine - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:10 PM PT
DaveCook! In case you did not see my request elsewhere, could you please contact me at seguine@hotmail.com? Thanks.
103. Seguine - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:13 PM PT
Message #85
Rashi, Rambam. Rashi, Rambam. Hmmm.
How about Mordechai Kaplan?
104. BonJour - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:31 PM PT
Cellar: Okay, I'll bite.
How did conservative comedian Ben Stein kill Joan Rivers' husband?
I thought it was a suicide. Was Joan having an affair with Stein? I find that hard to believe.
105. LadyChaos - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:33 PM PT
Re: Message #35
Jan Huss preceded Martin Luther, and was more interesting, too. Too bad about the fire, though.
106. RyckNelson - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:06 PM PT
Sitting Bull
Crazy Horse
Mahandis Gandhi
The entire tribe of Kayans, maybe that will get them noticed. They are the tribal peoples of the millenium.
Pablo Picasso
Matisse
Octavio Paz
Mozart
Jobs and Wazniak
Cinggis-qan
Shakespeare
Lady Godiva
Joan of Arc
Sacagawea(sp?)
experienced fraysters,
Did you think I'd just go right to Gandhi? Fooled ya, uh?
107. LadyChaos - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:17 PM PT
Sidekicks of the Millennium
Abbot and Costello
Grant and Sherman
Laurel and Hardy
Martin and Lewis
Penn and Teller
Franklin and Jefferson
Shields and Yarnell
Hitler and Stalin
Fred and Ginger
Bert and Ernie
Siskel and Ebert
Woodward and Bernstein
108. trouserpIlot - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:56 PM PT
Thanks, cllrdr. And go to hell, Diva.
Hey! All these votes for Johannes Gutenberg and none for Steve! Bah!
I scratched Andre Gide once. It wasn't pleasant.
109. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:59 PM PT
Alfred E. Newman
"What, me worry?"
110. fred1717 - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:59 PM PT
Cellar - add Art Monk to yur list of Monks. I vote for Katarina Witt - the latest in Playboy shows she's back in shape. Of course, when she was 17 she was perfect. Also, how could anyone omit William Bennett, and Charlton Heston, who came down from the mount with the Ten Commandments and the Second Amendment.
111. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:11 PM PT
lady chaos
You know Sheilds and Yarnell? Are you from S.F.? My son was in a play on Broadway with Sheilds and Yarnell called "Broadway Follies." the play bombed, lasted one night. I really loved Yarnell, but I never heard much about them after that.
112. LadyChaos - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:14 PM PT
Shields and Yarnell hit it big nationally in the 70's for a while. They even had their own TV show.
113. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:20 PM PT
lady chaos
"Broadway Follies" was in the early '80's and was so bad that Sheilds and Yarnell took a lot of heat they really didn't deserve. I kind of think it took the wind out of their sails. Show business is a viscous business.
Shields started out as a street mime in Union Square in S.F. Do you ever here about them now? They would be in their middle 40's, I think.
114. cllrdr - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:21 PM PT
Stein, whose connections are many, was the conduit of negative information about Rivers' ill-fated late night show for Fox. When Rosenberg discovered this and objected, Stein redoubled his efforts. After Rosenberg's death, Stein's uncharitable remarks continued to flow freely. All this, needless to say, unfolded far from public view. But everyone in Hollywood knows about it. That Stein has become a figure of "hip" veneration is the final nail in the "counterculture's" coffin.
115. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:23 PM PT
cllrdr
I know Ben, he's a friend of mine. I'm going to e-mail him this info and get his side of this story.
116. cllrdr - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:36 PM PT
Such interesting friends you have,al.
Imagine! Shields & Yarnell. Ben Stein.
Who's next? Terry Teachout? Roger Kimball? Midge Decter? Larry Jarvik?
117. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
cllrdr
Who said Shields and Yarnell are my friends? Are you really criticising me for being a name dropper? Come on, that is a bit much.
You claim to know everything that is going on in your town. Because I'm a goy I can't know Ben Stein?
118. cllrdr - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:44 PM PT
I didn't know you were a goy, al! I'm shocked! Shocked!
Actually the fact that you're a Gentile makes your connection to Stein all the more concievable.
119. Seguine - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:46 PM PT
Robert Yarnell now makes costume jewelry for a living. I think he may be based in Colorado.
120. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:47 PM PT
cllrdr
Now what in the world is that supposed to mean. I do not wish to trade barbs with you. First because I've come to enjoy your wit, and second, you are much sharper than I.
121. cllrdr - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:51 PM PT
O.K. al. It's getting late. I shall bow from the waist a la Henry Hyde-di-ho, and slip away into the arms of Morpheus.
Scott Morpheus, my new weight trainer.
(rim shot)
122. aldavis - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:57 PM PT
cllrdr
Good night, my dear cyberspace friend.
123. mickelin - Jan. 30, 1999 - 5:06 AM PT
Well who could be more important than the family Rausing. They created the Tetra-Pak and helped people all over the world to get fresh drinks like milk and other vitals for a human in an unexpensive way.
124. LadyChaos - Jan. 30, 1999 - 12:58 PM PT
Have you drank super-pasteurized milk from a Tetra-pak? Hardly fresh. More like liquid cheese.
125. PincherMartin - Jan. 30, 1999 - 5:17 PM PT
I have to say that I think the influence of Genghis Khan is highly overrated. The Mongols were a flash-in-the-pan millenniumly speaking. Almost a thousand years after they tore through the Eurasian continent, what evidence remains of their influence? Not much, if any. Contrast that with Newton, Columbus, Martin Luther, even Hitler. In certain regions they maintained their influence for a long period of time, but in other regions (such as China) they were gone within a hundred years, and their cultural influence was gone even before then.
What is left of the Mongols influence now? A few phrases (yellow horde, kamikaze) and perhaps, if you strain it, the idea of lightning military attacks. After that, nothing.
126. PincherMartin - Jan. 30, 1999 - 5:19 PM PT
Don't mistake my meaning. I think that the Mongols are fascinating to read about; I just wouldn't vote their most famous leader the person of the millennium.
127. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 5:57 PM PT
Pincher:
"What is left of the Mongols influence now? A few phrases (yellow horde, kamikaze)..."
The word "horde" (from Turkish 'ordu') entered the English language thanks to the Mongols, but 'kamikaze' is a 20th century borrowing from Japanese.
128. wonkers2 - Jan. 30, 1999 - 6:09 PM PT
Cllrdr, Better add Charlie Chaplin and his father-in-law to your list.
129. patsyrolph - Jan. 30, 1999 - 7:08 PM PT
Say,wizards, does anyone have any idea how many people have lived in this millennium?
130. cllrdr - Jan. 30, 1999 - 7:38 PM PT
Father-in-law?
131. CalGal - Jan. 30, 1999 - 7:45 PM PT
Eugene O'Neill.
132. cllrdr - Jan. 30, 1999 - 7:54 PM PT
I like Jack Nicolson's O'Neill in "Reds," but outside of "Long Day's Journey Into Night" O'Neill's work does little for me.
I'm considering Chaplin for my list. But that means tossing someone off to make room for him.
Suggestions?
133. trouserpIlot - Jan. 30, 1999 - 8:35 PM PT
patsy,
A very interesting question. I once heard this statistic: that half of all the people who EVER lived are alive right now. I've tried to verify this, but I'll tell you -- record-keeping was quite shoddy in the millennia before writing was invented.
cllrdr,
elliot.
134. cllrdr - Jan. 30, 1999 - 8:38 PM PT
Jamais, Trouser, Jamais!
135. Raskolnikov - Jan. 30, 1999 - 8:44 PM PT
I think what Pincher is referring to is that the Mongols tried to invade Japan, and the storm which destroyed the Mongol forces was called the "divine wind", or "kamikaze".
136. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 8:53 PM PT
Rask:
True enough, though it took WWII to put the term into the English lexicon. I don't think many people associate it with the attempted Mongol invasion of Japan in 1281.
137. DaveCook - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:32 PM PT
The Mongols destroyed the two chief civilizations of the 13th century (Sung China and the Baghdad caliphate); they permanently alienated Japan from Asia and Russia from Europe; their heirs conquered most of the Indian sub-contint as well. I didn't say that the Mongols had a constructive impact on history, but they had a huge destructive impact. Without Genghis Khan, none of this would have happened
138. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:46 PM PT
I posted a note on the linguistic effects of the Mongol invasion in the Language thread.
139. DaveCook - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:57 PM PT
The biggest stories of the millenium are the political rise of Western Europe and the unprecedented expansion in technological competence. It is certainly arguable that the Man of the Millenium should be some symbol of these events. But if you eliminate Columbus, Gutenberg, Newton, Shakespeare and Luther, you would have the same basic outcome.
140. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:05 AM PT
Irv --
"The word "horde" (from Turkish 'ordu') entered the English language thanks to the Mongols, but 'kamikaze' is a 20th century borrowing from Japanese."
Yes, I should have been clear. "Kami" meaning god or divine and "kaze" meaning wind were used by the Japanese to describe the typhoons that destroyed both invasion fleets of the Mongols that were sent to conquer Japan (I want to say in 1284 and 1291, but my memory might be off). The Mongols did not invent the words, but were the inspiration for them. In the 20th century, the Japanese used the word for their pilots sent on suicide bombings in WWII.
141. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:08 AM PT
Oh, I see that Raskolnikov, Dave Cook, and Irv have already talked this over.
142. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:11 AM PT
Irv -- Message #136
There were *two* attempted invasions by the Mongols, both were disabled by typhoons before they landed in Japan (one, I believe, was completely wiped out before it landed in Japan while the other was disabled enough for the Japanese to finish up the remnants of the fleet that made it to shore).
143. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:28 AM PT
DaveCook --
"The Mongols destroyed the two chief civilizations of the 13th century (Sung China and the Baghdad caliphate); they permanently alienated Japan from Asia and Russia from Europe; their heirs conquered most of the Indian sub-contint as well. I didn't say that the Mongols had a constructive impact on history, but they had a huge destructive impact. Without Genghis Khan, none of this would have happened."
You make some very good points, particularly the alienation of Japan from Asia and Russia from Europe, which had important historical consequences. I didn't claim that this execise was to find someone that had a constructive impact on history. I thought that it meant naming the most important or most influential person, for better or worse.
The fall of the Song dynasty probably means nothing today. Even in China, what did it mean after the Ming came to power. The Mongols gave nothing to Chinese civilization. In fact, the Chinese probably hastened the end of the Yuan dynasty by civilizing the Mongols. I am less sure about the fall of the Baghdad caliphate. The most interesting thing I remember reading was that the Mongols were able to finish off the cult of "assassins" that had terrorized the area for so long. After that, the influence of their rule in the mideast extended to what? How is the world different today because they were there?
144. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:34 AM PT
Dave Cook -- Message #139
Yes, probably so. Although I think that both Newton and Shakespeare were irreplaceable in their individual contributions, the general movement of the rise of science and the west would have continued without them.
Would the Mongols have terrorized the entire whole of Eurasia without Genghis? Who knows. We don't know that much about the Mongols at that time to say for sure.
145. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:36 AM PT
Don't take my first paragraph in the above post to mean that Shakespeare contributed to the rise of science and the west. It is late, and I should be asleep.
146. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:45 AM PT
Actually, the Mongols had one major if fleeting constructive impact on history -- the creation in much of the Eurasian landmass peace and what amounts to a giant free trade zone. This Pax Mongolica, stretching from China to Poland, multiplied the volume of trade all across Eurasia and even the Indian Ocean (one of the most important commercial zones in the world before the coming of the West). A generation earlier the likes of Marco Polo could not even have travelled to China because of the Christian-Muslim hostility that had begun with the Islamic conquest of Christian Byzantine lands in the Middle East.
It could also be argued that the end of Pax Mongolica and the resumption of the Islamic-Christian "cold war" that closed off the various trading routes led directly to the period known by historiography as the Age of Exploration. And this renewal of hostility -- exacerbated by the conversion to Islam of a people related to the Mongols, the Ottoman Turks -- inspired the likes of Magellan, Columbus, etc. to find alternative routes to the East. America may have been discovered at a completely different time had the Mongols not launched across the steppes of Asia.
(Yes, I'm sure that technology would have developed anyway, but I don't think technology just develops exogenously.)
147. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:47 AM PT
maritime technology...
148. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:49 AM PT
I have a copy of _The Secret History of the Mongols_ lying around somewhere, unread. I have heard that it is the only source we have on the Mongols *by the Mongols*. I have read two other books on the subject. One a biography of Chinggis by I forget who; the other David Morgan's _The Mongols_.
149. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:51 AM PT
In his excellent Message #137, DaveCook mentions the various impacts of the Mongols, direct and indirect through their descendants like the Mughals. He forgets that the Turkic peoples, including the Ottomans, would not have arrived in the flesh spots of Eurasia -- the Middle East and the Levant -- were it not for the Mongols. And one of the most important events of the Middle Ages was the collapse of the Byzantine Empire. I would argue that the fall of Byzantinum had an impact on Russia at least as great as the Mongol conquest of Russia. It is around this time that Russian princes and dukes begin calling themselves Tsar (aka Caesar). It's the historic beginning of Russian messianism.
150. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:54 AM PT
Wow, someone is up besides me.
PseudoErasmus --
Your Message #146 is a good argument supporting Genghis as "Person of the Millenium", especially the second paragraph.
151. PincherMartin - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:56 AM PT
Well, I stand corrected. PseudoErasmus and Dave Cook have humbled me into acknowledging that the influence of the Mongols was not just a "flash in the pan".
152. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:08 AM PT
Well, since no single person is important enough to symbolise the rise of the West -- which as DaveCook point out is the biggest story of the millennium -- I vote that Genghis Khan is the most influential person of the millennium.
153. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:28 AM PT
PE:
I especially like this note hidden in your Message #146. I think it is a little noted yet highly significant development:
"It could also be argued that the end of Pax Mongolica and the resumption of the Islamic-Christian "cold war" that closed off the various trading routes led directly to the period known by historiography as the Age of Exploration."
154. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 3:30 AM PT
Snirv (Message #153): Well, I didn't mean it to be "hidden". But the impact of the end of Pax Mongolica cannot be imagined without thinking about Pax Mongolica itself. The degree of interaction and exchange that the Afro-Eurasian world experienced between 1250 and 1400 was quite simply unprecedented -- the creation of the first "world system", to use a phrase coined by Immanuel Wallerstein, that encompassed Northeastern Europe, the Mediterranean, the Middle East, South Asia and East Asia.
The Byzantine Empire in the 13th century had been in effect saved by the Mongols, who had made a common cause with Christians against the Muslim Seljuk Turks. So when Mongol power in Asia collapsed, one of the inevitable consequences was the total dissolution of the rump Byzantine state at the hands of the Ottomans.
Today the psychological impact of the fall of Constantinple (1453) and Athens (1456) is too little appreciated. Men who lived on the Atlantic coasts of Europe, visualising the complete closure of the eastern Mediterreanean, unwilling to return to the Dark Ages of economic autarchy (and those happy-smiley days of unseasoned dried meats) took to looking again at what had been said in the past about the geography of the world.
155. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 3:40 AM PT
Oh, about this "common cause" between Christians and Mongols against the Muslims...
The Mongols had succeeded in destroying Islamic hegemony as far east as the Baghdad caliphate and the Seljuk sultanate of Anatolia, the latter being in my opinion the more important conquest. But for nearly a century the il-khans of Persia continued to engage in a life-and-death struggle against the Mamlukes of Egypt. And naturally they began to look westward for allies. Thus a flurry of diplomatic activity in the late 13th and early 14th century: Edward I of England even received emissaries from the il-Khans of Persia for a Mongol alliance against Mamluke Egypt, and in turn embassies from Byzantium and the Papacy regularly found their way to various Mongol courts in Asia.
156. FreeToChoose - Jan. 31, 1999 - 8:51 AM PT
In Message #139 DaveCook says:
“But if you eliminate Columbus, Gutenberg, Newton, Shakespeare and Luther, you would have the same basic outcome.”
You hint at an issue we haven't discussed much. What exactly do we mean by “important”? We can make an argument that movable type was an important invention. Does it automatically follow that the inventor deserves the same measure of importance? I suggest that the importance of the invention (for a future thread, I understand) ought not be automatically conflated with the importance of the inventor. I suggest the test is to think through how the world would have been different if that inventor had not existed. In virtually all cases, the invention would eventually appear, but a longer lapse of time would suggest more importance for the particular inventor.
If my recollection is correct, one of the extreme examples is Bell. While I am certain that the telephone will be high on the list of important inventions (deservedly so), I believe that if Bell had never existed, the invention of the telephone would have been delayed by less than 24 hours. Thus, the invention is important, but Bell is unimportant (except to the extent he did other things.)
In that same vein, I would argue that Columbus I over-rated. The colonization of America didn't start in earnest until a century after his voyage. Had Columbus never made his trip, is it conceivable that the development of America would have been measurably delayed? My guess is no, but perhaps our history experts will weigh in.
Based upon PE's posts, it looks like Genghis deserves more credit for the discovery of America than Columbus.
157. jkuzmak - Jan. 31, 1999 - 3:47 PM PT
Re: Erasmus' posts and the importance of Gengis Khan
John Keegan, in The History of Warfare, suggests that the Conquistadors' treatment of the Incas and others may have been effected by the Mongol invasions. Don't try to argue with me about it, Erasmus, I just remember the statement being made and I ain't going to go back and look it up.
158. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 4:46 PM PT
It looks like this could be a thread to discuss important trends in history as has been suggested several times. Arguing a person's relative impact on history requires much more research and analysis than I am likely to want to commit. Nevertheless, I would like to go ahead and nominate Sacagawea as the most important woman of this millenium, because of her pivotal role in solidifying the Louisiana Purchase and ultimately defining the shape of the continental United States. I would be interested to know if anyone thinks there was another woman more influential to history in this millenium than Sacagawea was and why. (It would give me something to start structuring my argument around.)
159. CoralReef - Jan. 31, 1999 - 5:20 PM PT
Elizabeth I
Catherine The Great
Marie Curie
Queen Victoria
Fran Liebowitz
160. trouserpIlot - Jan. 31, 1999 - 5:35 PM PT
It's "Lebowitz"
"Original thought is like original sin: they both happened long before you were born to people you could not possibly have met."
161. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 7:10 PM PT
CoralReef -
Re: Message #159
Thanks! What impact on history do you think each of these women had, or is having? Which is the most significant, in your opinion?
162. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 7:18 PM PT
CoralReef -
To determine who was the most influention woman in this millenium, I would look at the number of lives impacted by each person by the end of the millenium, the extent of the impact on the culture of those people, and the probable extent of impact on people in the future. I suspect, that although all the women you have listed are remarkable, all have not actually impacted many lives.
163. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 7:20 PM PT
influention = influential
hehe
164. CoralReef - Jan. 31, 1999 - 7:49 PM PT
Sorry, don't expect me to spend time detailing how someone who presides over a huge empire might have affected more lives than a teenage interpreter on a hiking expedition.
165. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 8:01 PM PT
CoralReef -
Do you dispute that the United States would be geographically quite different, in fact would likely not extend to the Pacific Ocean, if Lewis and Clark's Corps of Discovery had failed, as it certainly would have without Sacagawea's expert assistance?
166. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 8:14 PM PT
CoralReef -
The problem is, all of the huge empires presided over by the women you've listed are trivial in historical impact compared to the modern United States, which is changing even the ecology of the planet. If Sacagawea actually contributed significantly to the modern day power of the United States, she has had a significant impact on history.
167. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 31, 1999 - 8:39 PM PT
darkviolet:
Do you think exploration of North America would have ceased if Lewis and Clark had failed?
I can't see how the British Empire (upon which the sun never set) is trivial historically.
168. cllrdr - Jan. 31, 1999 - 8:55 PM PT
True Irv. It supplied several of my immortals: Oscar Wilde, Ronald Firbank, Noel Coward, and Joe Orton.
Fran Liebowitz only serves to remind me of the fact that Dorothy Dean's shoes can't easily be filled.
169. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 10:28 PM PT
IrvingSnodgrass -
Re: Message #167
I believe a delay of even two or three years in a successful crossing of the continent would have made a difference in who governed a large portion of the American West today. I've read that intense controversy over the wisdom of the Louisiana Purchase in Congress motivated Jefferson to hastily organize the Corp of Discovery expedition, indicating that strong sentiment existed at the time to abandon the West to the French and Spanish.
I'm not sure what that would have meant. It's an interesting question.
170. darkviolet - Jan. 31, 1999 - 10:34 PM PT
Re: Message #167
"I can't see how the British Empire (upon which the sun never set) is trivial historically."
Neither of the women CoralReef listed had as much influence on the character of the British Empire as Sacagawea had on the United States of America by defining its borders as sea to sea when she did. And as much impact on history as the British Empire has had and will have, I believe the U.S.A. will ultimately have more. It's a bigger country in a smaller world.
171. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 10:25 AM PT
I'll bet Isreal wouldn't exist without Sacagawea's help.
172. CoralReef - Feb. 1, 1999 - 10:29 AM PT
Sacagawea was directly responsible for
The Marshall Plan
Velcro
The Space Program
Microsoft Office
173. luthercalvin - Feb. 1, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
And don't forget Spam.
174. BonJour - Feb. 1, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
Are you saying that if Sacagawea hadn't helped Lewis and Clark we would never have had grunge rock or Nirvana?
175. luthercalvin - Feb. 1, 1999 - 12:26 PM PT
Nor Alka Seltzer.
176. DanDillon - Feb. 1, 1999 - 12:54 PM PT
Perish the thought.
All hail Sacagawea!
All hail Sacagawea!
All hail Sacagawea!
177. loopy76 - Feb. 1, 1999 - 1:13 PM PT
Actually, I think Howard Kosell should be Person of the Millennium. Just look at what he has done! He and sportscasters nationwide have done more for the progress of the world than Lewis, Clark or that Indian babe done up with such style by Walt Disney. And that is why they make millions of dollars. Any questions?
178. BonJour - Feb. 1, 1999 - 2:13 PM PT
Howard Cosell, is the spelling, I believe.
179. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 3:23 PM PT
loopy76 -
You're thinking of Pocahantas, an entirely different Indian babe than Sacagawea.
180. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 3:26 PM PT
Well, I'm going to be disappointed if stunned silence is as much rebuttal as I'm going to get for my suggetion that Sacagawea is the most historically significant woman of this millenium.
181. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 1, 1999 - 3:29 PM PT
I think it's more like an amused silence.
182. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 3:34 PM PT
Either stunned silence or a diversionary barrage of this kind of irrelevent bullshit, I suppose.
Message #172
I was hoping someone might be literate enough to propose some criteria and suggest other women who better meet them.
183. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 3:41 PM PT
Re: Message #181
Amused silence isn't what comments are usually met with here, certainly not my comments. If some viable challenge could be made, someone would be screaming insults at me.
184. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 1, 1999 - 3:58 PM PT
Words for Drakviolet to contemplate
preposterous
prime facie
ignore
185. thomasd - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:19 PM PT
Elizabeth I comes to mind as perhaps the most significant woman of the millennium.
186. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:21 PM PT
In other words, if you can't refute the argument, obscure it with snobbery.
187. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:22 PM PT
thomasd -
On what basis?
188. thomasd - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:29 PM PT
Re. 187 -
Queen Elizabeth I wasn't just 'throne' her weight around during her reign. She accomplished quite a bit that was good for England, including doing much toward making it the naval power it was until well into the 20th Century. A brief synopsis of what she accomplished:
"Elizabeth succeeded in furthering England's interests in the face of foreign threats and religious unrest
at home. Highlights of her reign include making the Church of England (a Protestant denomination)
the state religion, while avoiding war with the powerful Roman Catholic nations of Europe; English
navy's defeated of the Spanish Armada; English merchant ships challenged Spanish preeminence on
the high seas; the first settlers were sent to America to open the way for a great colonial empire, and
England's economy flourished."
189. thomasd - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:47 PM PT
Of the most significant men of the last millennium, Newton seems to have the best overall qualifications because of the impact he had on scientific and rational thought.
Karl Marx was basically an impractical goody-good; perhaps the best non-religious illustration in the last millennium of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
190. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:49 PM PT
"...avoiding war with the powerful Roman Catholic nations of Europe; English navy's defeated of the Spanish Armada; English merchant ships challenged Spanish preeminence on the high seas..."
I would be interesting in seeing how much direct influence Elizabeth I had on history through her control of the outcomes of wars, compared to how much of history she was simply in a fortunate position to witness.
"...the first settlers were sent to America to open the way for a great colonial empire, and England's economy flourished."
Elizabeth I is to be given full credit for colonizing the United States and all the wealth that generated for England?
191. thomasd - Feb. 1, 1999 - 4:54 PM PT
darkviolet -
Hey, if PE can feel justified in giving all the credit to 'winning' the cold war to Harry Truman, because he was lucky in his choice of advisors, I certainly can pick a powerful woman like Elizabeth I who had to formulate and enforce most of her own policies, as the most significant woman of the last millennium.
192. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:15 PM PT
thomasd -
What specific criteria are you using to evaluate someone's significance in history?
I'm looking at the number of lives directly impacted by them by the end of the millenium, the extent of the impact on the culture of those people, and the probable extent of impact on people in the future.
193. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:43 PM PT
It's already been decided: the most significant man of the millenium was Genghis Khan.
As for Elizabeth I, ThomasD doesn't know what he's talking about. The defeat of the Spanish Armada was more a matter of weather than anything Elizabeth did; and the prosperity of England's economy was part of the larger commercial revolution in Europe in the late Renaissance. Elizabeth didn't even stabilise England's politics: within less than 40 years of her death there was a civil war in England, and the religious question wasn't settled firmly until 1688.
194. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:44 PM PT
Newton comes in second.
195. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:44 PM PT
"Newton seems to have the best overall qualifications because of the impact he had on scientific and rational thought."
As though nobody else before had one.
196. thomasd - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:47 PM PT
Re. 192 -
I think you mention valid criteria, which is one reason I am leery of choosing anybody who lived within the last century, or possibly even two.
Also, reading back, I feel constrained to say that if Lewis & Clark had been et by a bar, for instance, the US government would have sent others out to survey the West and Northwest. The push to fulfill the so called 'Manifest Destiny' still would have occurred.
197. thomasd - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:55 PM PT
Genghis Khan was a historical flash in the pan. What heritage due to the Mongol hordes remains except for some epicanthic folds among Slavic people and a few dusty Yuan artifacts?
PE also fails to mention a woman of the last millennium that was more influential than Elizabeth I, so my choice stands.
198. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:58 PM PT
thomasd -
France, Spain and England were all preparing and as ready to colonize the American West and the United States was at the time of the Corps of Discovery expedition, the fourth such expedition Jefferson had sent into the territories already claimed by the Spanish. The three previous American expeditons had failed. If Lewis and Clark's expedition had also failed, Jefferson's window of opportunity to achieve his goal of expanding the U.S. across the continent arguably would have closed forever.
199. darkviolet - Feb. 1, 1999 - 5:59 PM PT
and = as
200. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 1, 1999 - 6:00 PM PT
Message #197
You ignoramus, read backward and find out something about the consequences of the Mongol conquests initiated by Genghis Khan. "Flash in the pan" is just ignorant drivelling.