102. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:35 AM PT
PEdant:
Being an ignorant provincial, and never having approached one of these fine folks to ask them, I do not know whether they are Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, or what. So I don't know what language they speak. But they are Hindus. Excuse me if I've offended you.
103. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:36 AM PT
phil:
Cross post, and you nailed it.
104. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:36 AM PT
Message #100
Well, I apologise for the "pedantry", but since this is a thread about immigrants, I thought it would be apropos to correct the strange locution. After all, some Indian immigrants might be offended by "Hindu immigrants". (Not all Indians are Hindus.)
"I suspect he is trying to avoid the confusion that can be caused by using the word 'Indian.' "
So you think there are actually people out there who might mistake "Indian immigrants" for Native Americans who left North America and returned as immigrants?
105. phiLISTine - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:37 AM PT
Well, if you aren't criticizing him, then I'm not defending him. Seems weird for me to defend a right wingnut like him anyway, but it's the kind of mistake I'm apt to make, so I guess I took it personally.
Back to lurking.
106. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:38 AM PT
Zan: You haven't offended me. But read Message #101: it's just not about language. The Indians in Kissena Park are NOT all Hindus. Period.
107. phiLISTine - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:39 AM PT
"So you think there are actually people out there who might mistake "Indian immigrants" for Native Americans who left North America and returned as immigrants?"
Not exactly, but close enough. And the sad thing is, it's true; I've met folks that clueless.
108. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:44 AM PT
PE:
Actually, the story of this neighborhood, as well as the neighborhood which runs just east of LaGuardia Airport along Northern Blvd. which was revitalized by a mass influx of Korean immigrants, was chronicled in a N.Y.T. Magazine piece about 10 years ago.
Admittedly, I had assumed that these folks must be Hindus because of their clothing, and the dots on the heads of the women. But the magazine piece also described them as Hindus.
109. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:45 AM PT
Frankly, I don't see how it's pedantry to note that non-Hindus are not Hindus.
110. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:48 AM PT
Message #108
Surely, the NYT Magazine did not substitute "Hindus" for "Indians". Anyway, Kissena Park has got plenty of Muslims and Sikhs.
111. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:56 AM PT
PE:
1. They were described in the magazine article as Hindus. Their country of origin was probably also mentioned, but I do not recall what it was.
2. Of course there are Muslims and Sikhs all over Kissena Park - but I am talking about one particular neighborhood. The thrust of the article I mentioned, in fact, was that these HINDU immigrants, all of whom were from a small region of their home country, were actively excluding outsiders of any race or creed from settling in their neighborhood, even while being ostracized by the larger community themselves. (They weren't complaining, though).
112. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:02 AM PT
Zan (Message #111)
I will bet anything that the NYT Magazine never once used the phrase "Hindu immigrants".
113. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:04 AM PT
PE:
Hey. Kiss my ass, Okay?
114. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:05 AM PT
I will only do it if it is fragrant and hirsute.
115. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:08 AM PT
PE:
As you type, I'm sitting on my scanner. What's your addy?
116. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:09 AM PT
Anyway, at least I probably spared Zan the indecorum of uttering one day to a Bangladeshi grocery clerk, "you Hindu immigrants work so hard!"
117. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:13 AM PT
...followed by, "Hey - by the way, you people give great concerts!"
118. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:17 AM PT
No need to worry, that's not nearly as embarassing as Jenerator's gaffe, wherein she noted how Greeks today didn't seem all that pagan.
119. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:22 AM PT
Well, they don't!
They're still hirsute and fragrant, though.
120. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:24 AM PT
On every Ash Wednesday, I have to remind myself that one can't really convert to Hinduism.
121. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:27 AM PT
Ashes, dots...
What's the diff?
122. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:31 AM PT
The ashen females may be available, the dotted ones aren't.
123. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:35 AM PT
Thanks for clearing that up.
Have a good day, PE.
124. ycmeehan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 4:48 PM PT
An immigrant myself, I don't feel that I should participate in this thread but I will just once because I want to know why it was suggested a while ago that the "mutts" should be sent to France?
Pleeeeze, I dont wanna go back...I aint a mutt and I caint stand foie gras.
125. MrSocko - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:08 PM PT
Message #94, Zan:
"Isolated by language and culture (and fear), the area has remained exclusively Hindu. All the store signs are written in their language, and very few store owners speak English."
This is such a silly statement. First of all, many, if not most, Hindus already speak English; India being the country in the world with the most speakers of English as a second language. Second, even if they did speak the "Hindu language," whatever that's supposed to mean, it can be wagered with 100% certainty that their children and grandchildren will speak English. Why? Because, with the possible exception of the Cuban community in Miami, there has never been an immigrant group in American history whose children did not master the majority language. (And even within the Cuban community, there are numerous exceptions, as I'm sure Maria Gleason could tell you.)
126. smarternyou - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:22 PM PT
There is an Indian language called Hindi, which is widely used in northern India. Some Hindu nationalist groups want to make it the sole national language. But because there are so many other native languages used on the Indian sub-continent, other Indian groups object.
Before England conquered it, India was like Europe a land of many different nations and different languages. Hinduism was to India what Christianity was to Europe, though Muslim conquests in Northern India made Islam a significant religion there. English is now used as an official language because, being a foreign language, it does not favor any particular group of Indians.
127. MrSocko - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:35 PM PT
Hindi is spoken throughout the subcontinent, as are 14 other "official" languages and English. You also neglect to mention the role of India in the formation of Buddhism and Jainism.
128. AuNaturel - Nov. 27, 1998 - 9:54 PM PT
Message #99
The moral of the story is that the melting pot takes three generations, usually. The greater the disparities (physical, cultural, religious) between the immigrant group and the "pot" the longer it takes. Active resistance to the melting process is also a factor.
Ethnic characteristics never go away completely but get more and more blended around the edges. You initially get a discreet cultural blocs which becomes a distinct wave in the sea and eventually subsides into a broad ripple as the bell curve smoothes out.
The immigrants take on characteristics of the "melting pot" even as the pot picks up chraracteristics of the immigrants. I gave often felt that blacks will not be completely "free" of discrimination by whites (and vica versa) until there is enough genetic mixing that visual catagorization into discrete races isn't possible. Then we'll find other reasons for hating each other.
129. MrSocko - Nov. 27, 1998 - 10:00 PM PT
Message #128
Most black families did not come to America as immigrants but as slaves. You need to make this distinction in any discussion concerning migration and American culture.
130. joezan - Nov. 28, 1998 - 7:19 AM PT
MrSocko - Message #125:
Either you didn't read my posts, or you, like pseudo, are a very smart guy who reads and interprets selectively, or feigns ignorance when you wish to flaunt your expertise at someone else's expense. For never did I refer to the "Hindu" language. Not having to feign my ignorance of such matters, yet fully aware that Hindus in the sub-continent speak many different languages, I purposely did not mention a specific language; I wrote "their language."
131. cllrdr - Nov. 28, 1998 - 8:08 AM PT
"as the bell curve smoothes out."
Yikes! Now it's a buzzword.
132. MrSocko - Nov. 28, 1998 - 8:10 AM PT
But there is no such thing as "their language" when it comes to Hindus.
133. smarternyou - Nov. 28, 1998 - 8:34 AM PT
joezan should have said "their languages" but it is not always easy to be grammatically or logically correct in the rapidity of thread discourse.
One also does not have the time to describe the entire religious landscape of India. I am aware of the existence of Buddhists and Jains, not to mention Sikhs. Hinduism and Islam are by far the two largest religions.
134. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 28, 1998 - 2:24 PM PT
Zan thinks I read and interpret selectively, but one cannot but get an impression from his messages about Indians in Kissena Park that he thinks "Hindus" constitute an ethnic grouping, rather than a religious one. I also think Zan genuinely confused "Hindu" and "Hindi", and perhaps thought that all Indians spoke Hindi (or "Hindu"). So I don't think Message #133 is correct; "their language" that Zan references is "Hindu".
135. proudnerd - Nov. 28, 1998 - 5:21 PM PT
OK, after pseudoE and socko, it's my turn to admonish joezan for his obviously ignorant remarks in Message #94. I find it hard to believe that all the store signs would be written in "their language" (whatever that means). Hell, even the store signs in India are written in English. And as socko pointed out, their not speaking any English bit is a tad too farfetched.
pseudoE, talking about ashes and dots, I believe that among South Indians who wear stripes on their foreheads, you can tell their sect (probably caste too) by reading the pattern, like the number of stripes and whether they are vertical or horizontal.
136. proudnerd - Nov. 28, 1998 - 5:34 PM PT
Calgal, Message #92
One of the reasons why big boys of the computer industry (like Intel and Microsoft) lobby strongly in favor of increasing professional visas is that that is the way they hire some of the best foreign graduate students from the engineering schools. Just check out the research and development labs of the powerhouses in the industry, you will see an ashtonishing number of immigrants from India, Taiwan and Korea. These aren't your run-of-the-mill VisualBasic programmers from Russia, they are a well-paid and pampered lot.
137. joezan - Nov. 28, 1998 - 10:31 PM PT
PE, proudnerd:
I suggest you kiss each other's ass, and then go back and read my posts.
Yes, the signs were written in "their" language - whatever that language happened to be - "they" being a homogeneous group of immigrants (as I mentioned previously). And how is it silly to characterize a group of people of the Hindu faith, who settle in another land, as Hindu immigrants? If I decided to join a couple hundred of my Christian brethren in an emigration to, say, India, then would we not be Christian immigrants?
I suspect that the reason these people chose not to have their signs in English is because they do not want the homogeneity of their community compromised, whether or not they speak English as a second, or even first, language. The article I mentioned seemed to imply as much.
And, again, you may assume what you wish regarding my knowledge of the languages, races and religions of the Indian sub-continent, which I admit is limited. But the fact is I never mistake "Hindu" the religion for "Hindi" the language, or Pakastani for Indian or Sri Lankan or what-have-you. I simply don't remember which country the article said they were from, but do remember that it said they were Hindus, and that is exactly what I wrote.
138. AuNaturel - Nov. 28, 1998 - 10:48 PM PT
joezan - be at peace.
The benefit of the doubt is never given nor is the slightest gramatical ambiguity overlooked here when such details can be used as a way of ignoring the obvious intent of your post.
139. proudnerd - Nov. 29, 1998 - 12:16 AM PT
joezan, Message #137
An indignant outburst of pitiful rambling doesn't really prove a point. The more you post ignorance laden messages, the more you sink yourself into an indefensible position.
"If I decided to join a couple hundred of my Christian brethren in an emigration to, say, India, then would we not be Christian immigrants?"
Nope. Assuming you are an American, you would be an American immigrant (or perhaps a white/black immigrant). There are christians in all parts of the country and your christian identity doesn't quite identify your group. Likewise Hindu immigrant is pretty much like saying "human immigrants", very absurd.
OK, the next time I visit NYC, I will check this place out as I, never having seen a lingually homogeneous "hindu" ghetto, would be decidedly enlightened.
140. CalGal - Nov. 29, 1998 - 12:22 AM PT
Proudnerd,
"Just check out the research and development labs of the powerhouses in the industry, you will see an ashtonishing number of immigrants from India, Taiwan and Korea. "
Oh, agreed. However, most of those people have green cards, if they are interested. I did four separate consulting gigs at Intel; one of them was a facilitated session for the Immigration organization to re-engineer their systems. As far as I know, I'm still under NDA, but suffice it to say that R&D personnel usually got green cards.
"These aren't your run-of-the-mill VisualBasic programmers from Russia, they are a well-paid and pampered lot."
I've known a lot of H1B visa-holders; most of them have been from Russia or India. All of them have had doctorates; none of them have been run of the mill. The "well-paid and pampered lot" are usually green card holders.
What's interesting is the number of startup companies that I can think of (five right off the top of my head) staffed over 50% by H-1Bs. (Anecdotal alert!)
I've been looking for numbers on this, but haven't found any yet. But wouldn't it be fascinating if we are justifying the visas because we need them for existing jobs--and then a solid percentage of them are used for startups? (g)
141. MrSocko - Nov. 29, 1998 - 12:30 AM PT
proudnerd:
This is one of those rare instances when I wish marjoribanks were here. He would rightly heap scorn on Zan's cock and bull story. The more Zan explains himself, the further he slides into a deeply confused state.
142. proudnerd - Nov. 29, 1998 - 3:33 AM PT
CalGal, Message #140
"However, most of those people have green cards, if they are interested."
Yes, but most of them were probably employer sponsored. The companies need some kind of professional visas to employ foreign students out of grad schools while US government sits for years on their green card applications. I am not arguing for or against any visas, just that hirings in many R&D organizations of a number of companies would be adversely affected if professional visas are abolished under the existing system.
"I've known a lot of H1B visa-holders; most of them have been from Russia or India. All of them have had doctorates; none of them have been run of the mill."
If they are in your line of work, then either they got by your hiring ritual with fake Phds or the Phds must be in liberal arts subjects.
I am not familiar with the start-up scene, but you could be right about them.
143. RyckNelson - Nov. 29, 1998 - 5:49 AM PT
Joe,
Have you heard about the crack-down of christians in China?
Proud and Mr.Socko,
Yeah, you guys know the correct perspective, BUT let me suggest something to you both.
The facts as Joe read them are what I see him telling. He isn't making as complete a personal observation as he is linking his ideas with that of an article he read.
"The article I mentioned seemed to imply as much."
Now I am no winner in the field of logic but I wont slam anyone for making comments that are incorrect. Rather I would search for the truth. If I were curious of Hindu Ghettos in NYC I would try a little harder to glean more from Joe and then search the article he mentions for myself. It is likely to be found on the web.
Joe please give me the name of the rag and the date / page etc... I would appreciate a chance to read that article for myself.
Thank you,
Rick Nelson.
144. ScottLoar - Nov. 29, 1998 - 2:34 PM PT
This ragging of Zan is wrong. Rick Nelson called it right in Message #143; such hounding is usually found in the political threads and becomes none of you.
145. jkuzmak - Nov. 29, 1998 - 2:50 PM PT
I say let the immigrants in, they tend do be more capable of practicing democracy than Americans.
146. proudnerd - Nov. 29, 1998 - 6:24 PM PT
Aw come on Loar, joezan deserves it. He posts this bullshit story along with his own conclusions about "Hindu immigrants" and then indignantly twiddles when his story is picked apart. Didn't you see how quick he was to conclude based on their dress that they were Hindu ?
147. proudnerd - Nov. 29, 1998 - 6:26 PM PT
Ahrgg!!! indignantly twaddles, that is ....
148. ScottLoar - Nov. 29, 1998 - 7:11 PM PT
Proudnerd, read Message #137, take the man's words at face value, then drop the matter.
149. MyCampbellSoup - Nov. 29, 1998 - 7:46 PM PT
Well now, people, how did we get to talking about all of this other matter, when the title says, no, YOU read the title for yourself. Anyway, I am going to express my ideas on immigrants and the United States.
1. Good? Can't be good when Cubans are furiously flooding Florida! (hey, that's alliteration)
2. Why do we have to pay all these taxes for people who don't even belong here?
3. When I recently took a vacation to Florida and the surrounding areas, I heard more Spanish than I did English! Wait, what country ARE we in?
4. True, variety is the spice of life, but too much of a good thing CAN be bad.
5. I guess we are a very nice country!
What do you think?
150. AzureNW - Nov. 29, 1998 - 7:50 PM PT
MyCampbellSoup -
Do you think you belong here?
151. Msivorytower - Nov. 29, 1998 - 7:52 PM PT
I think you're being deliberately provocative, and not very subtle about it, either.
152. AzureNW - Nov. 29, 1998 - 7:53 PM PT
Well, yeah.
153. AzureNW - Nov. 29, 1998 - 7:54 PM PT
We are all immigrants here in the New and Improved World.
154. Msivorytower - Nov. 29, 1998 - 8:02 PM PT
Hahaha, Azure, my Message #151 was in reference to Message #149.
155. CalGal - Nov. 29, 1998 - 8:42 PM PT
Proudnerd,
Oh, okay, I see what you're saying about the R&D immigrants. That might be true; I'd have to check my notes.
"If they are in your line of work, then either they got by your hiring ritual with fake Phds or the Phds must be in liberal arts subjects."
There is no hiring ritual. And no, they aren't fake PhDs. Some of them are from American schools; others are from schools in India or Russia, but not degree mills. They work side by side (in my current company, at least) with Stanford doctorates and MBAs, who don't scoff at their work. (Of course, they also work side by side with *me*, so they may be tainted.)
And Math or CompSci only. They speak often of algorithms, I promise.
My objection, again, to the program is that it is a workaround. And a white collar work around at that. It's not a big deal; I'd just like to know what it is intended to accomplish. I don't believe that its primary purpose is as a stopgap for greencards.
156. elliot803 - Nov. 30, 1998 - 2:44 PM PT
CalGal:
"My objection, again, to the program is that it is a workaround."
A workaround for what problem? What solution to the problem do you propose?
"And a white collar work around at that."
A "white collar workaround?" What's that supposed to mean.
"It's not a big deal; I'd just like to know what it is intended to accomplish."
It's intended to provide a way for American businesses to hire temporary alien workers of distinguished merit and ability. If you actually *learned* something about U.S. immigration law, instead of spouting this incoherent nonsense about "workarounds" and "abominations," you might already have known this.
"I don't believe that its primary purpose is as a stopgap for greencards."
It isn't.
157. CalGal - Nov. 30, 1998 - 2:55 PM PT
Elliot,
Do you have any other things to say? I don't believe you've posted in here except to attack someone else.
"It's intended to provide a way for American businesses to hire temporary alien workers of distinguished merit and ability. "
I'm sure that is what it is intended for. Do you have any numbers on how it is actually used? I guarantee you that the people I know on these visas are bright and talented. But they don't have distinguished merit and ability. They are generally brought in via temp agencies that specialize in finding international people for programming jobs.
158. ycmeehan - Nov. 30, 1998 - 4:41 PM PT
MyCampbellSoup:
We are a very nice country as long as we need cheap labor.
159. hobson0 - Nov. 30, 1998 - 5:13 PM PT
Some greedy corporations want cheap immigrant labor and are having their puppets in Congress provide it. But that doesn't mean that most Americans agree with current immigration policies.
160. MyCampbellSoup - Nov. 30, 1998 - 7:29 PM PT
Hey all of you!!! Thanks for expressing your views on immigrants, as I have in message 149. Now, ycmeehan, I think you are right! The United States will always be open to immigrants, if we need a few thousand extra hands that are willing to work for dollars, if not pennies, a day. How could we go wrong? What a joke. Just what I want to do-support all the immigrants that could care less. That makes it bad for the ones who really do need help, if there are any.
Also, hobson0, could you elaborate on the Americans not agreeing with some policies?
One more thing-AzureNW::::::: I DO BELONG HERE-MAYBE YOU DON'T.
Last one-Msivorytower-Please expand on your views-I am listening.
THANKs...:-)
161. CharlieL - Nov. 30, 1998 - 7:36 PM PT
MyCampbellSoup = Paradigm = BullE, therefore ignored.
162. MyCampbellSoup - Nov. 30, 1998 - 7:43 PM PT
What in the world are you talking about, Mr.Charlie?
163. Jenerator - Nov. 30, 1998 - 8:07 PM PT
JoeZan,
Please email me.
164. RyckNelson - Dec. 1, 1998 - 4:32 AM PT
Well, a moniker Andy warhol could like. I like my campbell soup too.
I don't like to see Azure told or asked if she/he should be here. With just a wee bit of time on the Fray and exploring all the threads, anyone could glean that Azure is most definitely here with authority. Charlie reacted to you and now I am.
If you're not the old "paradigm" then don't get started off on the wrong foot around here. This community is established upon the premise that everyone is welcome but that civility will be used to temper all posts. We can get carried away at times and melt down in some way or another but I see civility ruling everyone.
Paradigm and BullE were both loud uncivilized sorts that made the choice to ignore any form of decorum. They soon faced the consequences.
165. ChristiPeters - Dec. 1, 1998 - 8:55 AM PT
Anyone who is not Native American is either an immigrant or the descendant of immigrants. So.... If you are objecting to immigration and you are not Native American, maybe you should "go back where you came from".
Ethically, it is hard for me to listen to the descendants of immigrants state positions against immigration. Sort of a "it was ok for me and my ancestors, but not for yours" type stance.
Practically, I wonder if there is a point at which the nation needs to say "ok, we're full now, no more can come in". How full is too full? When does that social cost outweigh the social benefit?
I don't know.
166. MyCampbellSoup - Dec. 1, 1998 - 11:17 AM PT
Wow! I am sorry if I caused a tinge-I was just explaining MY VIEWS! Now, notice I said MY VIEWS-I have that right. Anyway, I wasn't trying to cause any harm, but when I was asked "Do you think you belong here?", I reacted as any normal person would-in defense. Ok?
By the way, I hope I am NOT getting started off on the wrong foot-heaven forbid that.
167. Jenerator - Dec. 1, 1998 - 11:25 AM PT
Mysoup,
Don't worry about it. Every newbie is excited and posts their feelings and has to learn the "right" way of expressing them in a better way. I''ve been here a year and still don't express them the right way though!:)
Christi,
My exboyfriend and I were having dinner one night in a sushi bar in downtown Vancouver BC. He is a native Canadian (never lived anywhere else). He told me that BC has the largest population of Asians outside of Asia. He later told me that he thinks that the enormous amount of immigration to Canada has caused the country to lose a sense of real identity. He also believes that it has caused an increase in certain types of crime....asian gang shootings, theft by Muslims, etc.
168. ChristiPeters - Dec. 1, 1998 - 11:33 AM PT
Well, Jenerator, since I know absolutely nothing about the type and rate of crime in British Columbia, I can't speak to that.
I just have a sneaking suspician that a lot of objections to immigration are just plain racism in disguise.
I could be entirely wrong.
Other possibilities are
1) protectionism -> if immigrants can do MY job for less money, how am I going to keep my job/pay rate?
2) isolationists views
3) simple dislike of change/strangers
4) Genuine concern over the effects on culture, government, economy, etc of unfettered immigration
5) something else I haven't thought of.
That's why I am following this thread. I want to learn more about other's impressions/views.
169. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 1, 1998 - 11:43 AM PT
Re: Message #165, ChristiPeters.
"Anyone who is not Native American is either an immigrant or the descendant of immigrants."
I don't see how on Earth that's relevant.
"Ethically, it is hard for me to listen to the descendants of immigrants state positions against immigration."
Ridiculous. There is nothing unethical about people stating an opinion on anything.
"Practically, I wonder if there is a point at which the nation needs to say "ok, we're full now, no more can come in"."
I suspect when the population of a given country says so. What's wrong with that? Why is the onus on America to be the world's Holiday Inn?
"When does that social cost outweigh the social benefit?"
I'd say we're close to there now.
170. hobson0 - Dec. 1, 1998 - 2:42 PM PT
MyCampbellSoup
As a result of speaking with friends and aquantances, and reading letters to the editor in various publications, I get the impression that most Americans want an immigration level that is far below the current one. Now I do understand that many people don't make the distinction between legal and illegal immigration when stating their views about the issue. And maybe if illegal immigration were under control, then legal immigration would be viewed more favorably.
I agree with everything that Scotus said in post #169. My ancestors were immigrants over 125 years ago, but that has absolutely no relevance to immigration policy in 1998. I am concerned about immigration because of the environmental impacts of an increasing US population.
171. AGupta - Dec. 2, 1998 - 1:40 PM PT
Ooooh, immigration stuff. Lots of fun to be had here, for sure.
My father immigrated to this country from India in the sixties. I estimate that his entrepreneurial activity in this country since then has created perhaps 1,000 jobs (though that may be severely understating things). So I am largely unpersuaded by claims that immigrants harm "natives" in the labor market. I am also unpersuaded that immigrants, legal or not, take unfair advantage of the welfare system.
In fact, there are a couple of really strange trends that pervade this issue. Many modern liberals object to the devolution of welfare to the states, since they fear competition among the states -- a race to the bottom, in effect, to chase welfare recipients to their neighbors. Yet they reject the argument that immigrants choose their destination countries on the basis of welfare benefits (just as they promulgate the argument that native welfare recipients choose their state residences based on welfare benefits).
There is another notable trend nowadays as well, though not so puzzling as the above contradiction. Recently the Sierra Club narrowly voted down a resolution supporting an immigration freeze, which of course invited parallels with Pat Buchanan. I am very curious about the alleged environmental consequences of immigration. While I usually take a fairly hard-line Julian Simon innovation/property rights view on environmental issues, I'm really curious about what damage people who oppose greater immigration think that the new immigrants can inflict on the specifically American environment.
Ananda
172. tnrcirc - Dec. 2, 1998 - 2:18 PM PT
Scotus (and Hobson) -- How is that fact that we are all immigrants (or descendants of immigrants) NOT relevant? People have always argued against immigration, generally because of racism (look at the history of Irish-Americans in New England, for example). But the argument rarely takes the form of racism, rather it was "there are already too many people for the jobs" and now it is often "there are already too many people for the land."
Hobson, what do you propose? We are talking about people who already exist, not theoretical people. If you are worried about the future, join ZPG or NPG, but for now, people who exist need to live somewhere. Why not the United States, which is better equipped to support them than many other countries? (and I don't mean "support" as in welfare, I'm talking about the work visas which have already been discussed in this thread as well as Ananda's example of a productive immigrant who even generates jobs for those born in the US!)
Is the environmental argument that the U.S. is already overpopulated? If so, has the Sierra Club suggested that immigrants only be allowed into Alaska and other sparsely populated states? Really, the overpopulation argument could be taken to ridiculous lengths...
173. jonesatlaw - Dec. 2, 1998 - 2:27 PM PT
AGupta- your father wouldn't happen to be a U of Nebraska grad would he? Welcome!
The issue of immigrants over use of welfare is hogwash, IMO. There are sizable populations of persons over the last few decades that arrived as refugees with special benefits to them- Hmong, Vietnamese, Iraqi's etc. Many of them are persons who richly deserve the treatment afforded them. Many Americans owe their lives to the actions of these refugees in wartime. Others are granted asylum from persecution and were victims of torture. These folk are likely to have problems that will interfere with their ability to compete in the economy.
Other immigrants are a blessing to the U.S. Many come from the best schools abroad and then attend U.S. universities. They are an important part of the hard science work done in those universities, and their presence helps keep U.S. universities as the world standard.
We get the best and brightest from around the globe to work in our economy. With globalization an ever increasing fact of life, we should be glad that we're setting the standard.
174. hobson0 - Dec. 2, 1998 - 3:09 PM PT
tnrcirc
Immigrants, by in large, don't come to live in Alaska though, do they? They come to southern California and Florida, which are indeed overpopulated, at least by my standards.
It is my understanding that the US would have roughly zero population growth if not for immigration. I do see your point that these potential immigrants already live somewhere, and are contributing to world population growth regardless of where they live.
As much as I would like to see zero population growth world-wide, there's nothing I can do about it and very little that the US government can do about it. But I can write to my Congressman and ask him to control illegal immigration and reduce legal immigration.
Obviously, population increases lead to environmental degradation. The southwestern US barely has enough water to go around now. If the population continues to increase, where will the additional water come from? More people will require more energy from coal fired power plants, burn more gasoline in their cars, use more land and more wood from our public forests for their housing, require more farmland with the requisite fertilizer and pesticides to grow their food, etc. etc. etc. My concern is for the US environment, since I can do nothing about environmental conditions in other countries.
Yes, my ancestors immigrated many years ago. What concerns me is the effect of immigration in 1998, not whether or not it had a poitive effect in 1850.
175. AGupta - Dec. 2, 1998 - 3:14 PM PT
Jonesatlaw --
No, he came over to Cal Tech, in chemistry. "Gupta" is a very common last name in India. I remember one time, when I was in Calcutta, I was in a park. (I have spent my entire life in the US, but have visited India.) Someone yelled "Ananda!" and half the park turned around. So it turns out that in India, my name is like "Mike Smith." This was jarring to a kid who never had to give his last name when checking out library books in elementary school.
I too agree that the welfare arguments are gudge -- most studies I have read, Peter Brimelow ranting aside, have concluded that the size and "generosity" of the welfare state in the US does not factor very much into immigration decisions. It is more likely the availability of jobs, for which the competition is mostly confined to other immigrants with poor English and work skills, that attracts so many (as well as our proximity to a lot of nasty regimes).
Glenn Garvin has a whole host of really good immigration articles in REASON magazine at www.reason.com. REASON is great because they've archived the last 5 years of their back issues on the Web, and it's searchable.
Ananda
176. AGupta - Dec. 2, 1998 - 3:20 PM PT
Hobson -
Population increases also lead to innovation, since more minds means more ideas. Innovation is a key engine of environmental protection. It wasn't Greenpeace who saved the whales, but the guy who in the 1850s invented the kerosene refining process -- thereby obviating the need to hunt whales for oil.
Similarly, I am unpersuaded by claims about impending shortages of natural resources. Those claims have been circulating for many years, and the disaster is always right around the corner. I'm reminded of Julian Simon's bet with Paul Ehrlich, and Ehrlich's subsequent refusal even to repeat the bet.
Ananda
177. jonesatlaw - Dec. 2, 1998 - 3:39 PM PT
AGupta- As you say Gupta is a very common name. The reason I ask is that a Vinod Gupta went to UNL and founded American Business Lists, later to become American Business Information here in Omaha. But as you see, there is no shortage of sucessful Guptas here in America as well.
I'm not the first to say it, but it bears repeating; the US is what it is because it was open to people with dreams, ambition and a strong desire to succeed. Without the mix of cultures we wouldn't be as open to innovation as a society as we are. For example, Japan, a largely homogenous nation with a strong education system, a wealth of capital and societal values that value achievement and hard work is struggling to adapt to the current shift into the information economy. Meanwhile, we seem to be succeding. I hope we don't turn away from the root of our success.
178. Ronski - Dec. 3, 1998 - 10:25 AM PT
jonesatlaw,
Freedom is a correlate with economic success, regardless of a nation's ethnic makeup. Japan is relatively free economically, but not as free as the U.S., and is probably suffering from its own mercantilism as much as anything. For the simple cause of liberty, however, I hope America's doors are always open to people who wish to work and dream.
AGupta,
Namaste. Nice posts.
179. PseudoErasmus - Dec. 3, 1998 - 11:55 AM PT
Message #178
Well, "freedom", as measured by various "freedom indices", does not have a strong correlation with economic growth, at least when it comes to the developed countries of the world. The correlation is much stronger with developing countries. This suggests that while a certain amount of, say, "economic freedom" is necessary, after a certain level increasing it does not produce much benefit.
180. ScottLoar - Dec. 3, 1998 - 2:06 PM PT
"The mastermind of a plot to smuggle 300 Chinese immigrants into New York aboard a rickety freighter was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison, the 22nd and last defendant to be convicted in the Golden Venture case...
"The smuggling operation was discovered in May, when a powerboat taking 23 Chinese men ashore from the Oriental I, the 'mother ship,' ran aground.
"The Chinese paid the smugglers up to $40,000 to come to the United States, according to court papers filed by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
"The 23 Chinese, all young men from the southeastern provice of Fujian, remained in federal custody until September. Their requests for political asylum are pending." - pg. 12, Section 1, Chicago Tribune, Thursday, December 3, 1998.
181. Ronski - Dec. 3, 1998 - 2:51 PM PT
PE,
Yes, among the developed countries, I think the differences are probably slight. I'd be interested in a source on the web, if you have one. Thanks.
182. PseudoErasmus - Dec. 3, 1998 - 3:03 PM PT
Well, I don't know about "slight differences", but in terms of economic growth, the developed countries ranked as the most economically free by the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom generally underperformed those developed countries that scored lower on the index. See here. (Those scoring below 2 are dubbed the "most free".)
Of course, the observed slight negative correlation between "economic freedom" scores and economic growth rates among developed countries is meaningless, but the table was meant simply to counter the contention of the IEF author (whom I once debated) that a strong positive correlation existed.
183. ptboya - Dec. 3, 1998 - 4:13 PM PT
What were Heritage's criteria and how did they weight them? From the list I'd guess that unregulated flow of capital ranks high on their list and is given heavy weighting.
184. PseudoErasmus - Dec. 3, 1998 - 4:28 PM PT
Well, Boya, you guessed wrong. Although I'm sure regulating capital flows lowers a country's score on the IEF, that's not a major criterion as far as I know. Anyway, one can't even infer (from the list of developed countries above) that Heritage weights capital flows heavily in the score, because no developed country really regulates capital flows (and there is no reason to).
Here is the website for the 1999 Index of Economic Freedom. (If you want to read my debate with the author of the IEF, see here.)
185. MrSocko - Dec. 3, 1998 - 6:40 PM PT
Interesting to see Australia lagging far behind NZ when Australia's economy is performing so much better. In fact, Paul Krugman a couple of weeks ago described Australia as the world's great miracle economy. So much for economic freedom!
186. ptboya - Dec. 3, 1998 - 7:22 PM PT
Best book I've read on this topic is "The Ethnic Myth : Race, Ethnicity, and Class in America," by Stephen Steinberg.
He demonstrates quite clearly that the rate of assimilation by various immigrant groups is highly dependent on the skills they bring… is not attributable to factors, such as 'values' etc. The current influx of Koreans represents the most highly skilled group to come to the US since the large jewish immigration at the turn of the century. The INS apparantly keeps very detailed records of the skills and education of immigrants.
187. verdeazul - Dec. 4, 1998 - 9:44 AM PT
Without immigation who
would staff the thousands of
Convalescent "Hospitals" busily
squeezing the last sheckels out
of the Living Dead here in the
Land O' The Fee...? And for the
minimum wage or less! Hot damn,
call my broker!
everywhereiswarzul~
188. verdeazul - Dec. 4, 1998 - 12:22 PM PT
Hmmm...I seem to have
struck a nerve.
v~
189. xkennedy - Dec. 4, 1998 - 8:35 PM PT
I support immigration with the proviso that they have one criterion and to be fair, it is one that I could not pass. To be able to emigrate to the the US, you must have BLUE EYES. That's it.
Blue Eyes. This will disqualify most of the monkey people.
190. arkymalarky - Dec. 4, 1998 - 8:58 PM PT
That's funny; I just knew you were going to say a brain.
191. CharlieL - Dec. 4, 1998 - 9:20 PM PT
Nah, if a brain were required, xkennedy would not be here.
192. FreeToChoose - Dec. 5, 1998 - 5:21 AM PT
In Message #149 MyCampbellSoup says:
" 2. Why do we have to pay all these taxes for people who
don't even belong here?"
The implication that immigrants create a tax burden is greatly exaggerated. To the extent that there is any truth to it, the solution is fixing the tax policy, not turning away immigrants.
"3. When I recently took a vacation to Florida and the
surrounding areas, I heard more Spanish than I did
English! Wait, what country ARE we in?"
If you were in Chicago a century ago, you would have heard a lot of foreign language. More than half the population was first generation immigrant.
"4. True, variety is the spice of life, but too much of a
good thing CAN be bad."
Tautological. You haven't provided any evidence that we have "too much".
"5. I guess we are a very nice country!"
Some of us are.
193. FreeToChoose - Dec. 5, 1998 - 5:26 AM PT
In Message #165 ChristiPeters says:
"Anyone who is not Native American is either an
immigrant or the descendant of immigrants."
Why the exception for so-called "Native Americans"? Their ancestors were also immigrants, and recent studies are suggesting that virtually none of the current population is descended from the "first" immigrants (if anyone thinks that being first is relevant).
194. wexxford1 - Dec. 5, 1998 - 2:21 PM PT
When George Bush's brother ran for office as Connecticut's Senator he stated in a Greenwich speech :" Greenwich would not exist without illegal immigrants." The poor baby was run out of town by the Greenwich new rich--con artists via quick Wall St. money who pay a few dollars to illegal Latin Americans and illegal Irish .Of course you cannot have a melting pot.The only Amurrican system that works satisfactorily is the Brit one : 2 classes --those who con and those who get conned . Poor old Bush expressed that honest view .The Republicans in Connecxticut said of him " Never again !".
195. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 7, 1998 - 6:10 PM PT
Re: Message #172, tnrcirc.
"How is that fact that we are all immigrants (or descendants of immigrants) NOT relevant?"
Nope. Not playing. You tell me how it is.
hobson0 really answered your concerns, really.
196. Jenerator - Dec. 10, 1998 - 6:54 PM PT
France supposedly has the 2nd largest concentration of Muslims outside of the Middle East. There are over 600 mosques, and 4 million "Meghrebins".
197. MrSocko - Dec. 10, 1998 - 7:08 PM PT
I guess Message #196 will come as a surprise to readers in Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Pakistan, northern Africa, and ... America.
198. MrSocko - Dec. 10, 1998 - 7:09 PM PT
Even if she meant to say "Arab" instead of "Muslim," the claim is still incorrect.
199. Jenerator - Dec. 10, 1998 - 7:10 PM PT
I should have qualified with Supposedly in Western Europe. Thanks.
200. MrSocko - Dec. 10, 1998 - 7:12 PM PT
Even if she meant to qualify it by saying "Western Europe," the claim is *still* incorrect.