402. toonces - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:06 PM PT
ChristinO, bad girl, if you don't think vaginal orgasms are real, you do have something to look forward to.
403. jonesatlaw - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:06 PM PT
Scotus-good luck. Ultimately only you have the answer to this, but that doesn't mean that its not worth having someone help you find it. I hope that you find someone that just wants to help you find your answers, not tell you what they should be.
404. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:08 PM PT
toonces,
The Freudian idea that real women have orgasms only from penetration of the vagina and that females who have "clitoral" orgasms are immature and not "real" women. That clitoral orgasms are "wrong".
405. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:13 PM PT
toonces,
I'm not sure I know what you mean when you refer to a vaginal orgasm. I'll go look for some references on this, but to my knowledge the prevailing medical thought is that ALL female orgasms are clitoral with the possible exception of the Graffenberg Spot. This doesn't mean direct and sole stimulation of the clitoris, but rather that it's nearly impossible to muck about with any of the equipment without stimulating the clitoris in some way.
406. toonces - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:18 PM PT
ChristinO -
Oh, I see.
My understanding of multiple orgasms is that there are two kinds of orgasms that can be had serially or in parallel; one kind is smooth, one kind is sharp, one is internal and one is external. Both are great.
407. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:20 PM PT
Hahahahaha
Just when I think CalGall can't be more of an idiot.
408. cllrdr - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:20 PM PT
Scottie, if you want to talk over anything e-mail me. I know we've often locked horns, but I'm quite serious about this.
409. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:29 PM PT
toonces,
I never saw the point in turning up one's nose at any kind of orgasm----I'm particularly fond of the freebies that come during REM sleep----it just irritated the shit out of me to read about a bunch of men sitting around telling women what kind of orgasms they ought to be having. With an attitude like that they should have been thrilled to death if their women achieved any sexual satisfaction at all. Jeez.
410. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:33 PM PT
I, for one, am quite proud of our Scotus. Keep it up, young man, being honest with yourself and others is far better help than any cockamamie 'fixit' scam.
411. jonesatlaw - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:36 PM PT
Toonces and Christino- Which is precisely why they were busy making it a woman's fault if her sexual satisfaction was "faulty"
412. jonesatlaw - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:38 PM PT
Thankfully, the only position that women seem to have taken on mens orgasms is "not yet!"(g)
413. HCaulfield - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:39 PM PT
Q: How many orgasms does the average American woman have per month?
414. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:39 PM PT
Since "Gender Switching" does not equal "homosexuality," I suggest we take our congratulations to Lucky for his newfound and possibly temporary self-acceptance to "Fraygrants' Corner."
I'll join you all later, just as soon as I notch a few more gay youth suicides.
(By the way, this confirms a pet theory of mine that homosexuality is actually caused by consuming refrigerated soy sauce.)
415. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:39 PM PT
tP,
Go fuck yourself. I'm just fed up because you (and Elliot, for that matter) sit there and tell me all the time how hostile my views are to gay people.
Ask yourself this: suppose someone like Scotty is feeling unbearably pressured by the anxiety of realizing that he can't deny this anymore. Suppose he needed someone to talk to and come out to about it.
Who is he going to come out to? Some asshole who constantly humiliates him? How are you doing anything to make it easier for someone like him?
416. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:41 PM PT
Oh hush.
417. toonces - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:41 PM PT
Have fun, ScotusAntonovich. I can certainly understand why you would be attracted to men. Too bad you will miss out on the multiple orgasms.
418. HCaulfield - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:44 PM PT
TP & CG must have incompatible BMs.
419. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:46 PM PT
Jones,
Correct on both fronts!
HCaulfield: I suppose you need for somebody to say "I don't know. How many?"
420. cllrdr - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:47 PM PT
CG -- I've already told Scottie he can e-mail me. And I'm very serious about this.
Trouser -- Everyone knows that the refrigerated soy sauce thing is an urban legend. Homosexuality is cause by exposure to Dolores Grey production numbers.
421. HCaulfield - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:49 PM PT
CO -- I love you.
A: Who cares?
422. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:50 PM PT
OK, Lucky, I guess I'm supposed be a caring mentor-type role model. So here's my one piece of advice to you:
If you ever find yourself in bed with another guy (stranger things have happened, I suppose), feel free to whisper sweet nothings, or even talk dirty, while you're going at it. But skip that stuff about how homosexuality caused the fall of the Roman Empire. It's a real turnoff.
423. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:57 PM PT
HCaulfield:
you dawg, you're just trying to get in my pants but it's too late. Cllrdr has ruined me for good.
(funny joke btw)
424. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:29 PM PT
Scot Anton is gay? Next, VicKuligin will be outing himself as a lesbian.
425. TheDiva - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:30 PM PT
I just turned into Gene Hackman, I think. Does that count?
426. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:36 PM PT
elliot:
Well, Vic fessed up to being a quadruple amputee over in Religion. Anyone for tetherball?
427. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:37 PM PT
CalGal:
"Go fuck yourself. I'm just fed up because you (and Elliot, for that matter) sit there and tell me all the time how hostile my views are to gay people."
I consider you almost as great a threat to gay people as Jenerator and Kuligin. Your pathetic, craven indulgence of anti-gay bigots serves to legitimize their sick and cruel attitudes towards gay people, and you have nerve to talk about gay suicides. You are doing more to help perpetuate the self-loathing attitudes that result in that kind of tragedy than anyone else in the Fray other than the fundies themselves.
428. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:39 PM PT
And to think Lucky downloaded a photo of me....
--shudder--
429. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:41 PM PT
TP:
I WILL answer your mail.
430. TheDiva - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:41 PM PT
Scot
Please email me.....empressdiva@hotmail.com
431. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:48 PM PT
Scotus:
Are you now a "practising" homosexual? If not, I strongly urge you to go out and get laid (safe sex, of course). It will remove any doubts from your mind about your true nature (unless your partner is really bad in bed, in which case you should repeat the exercise with someone else).
432. 109109 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 1:55 PM PT
Scot
Beware Brits with the bad teeth.
433. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:02 PM PT
Practise [sic] makes perfect. I'll get it right one of these days.
434. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:10 PM PT
Elliot,
"You are doing more to help perpetuate the self-loathing attitudes that result in that kind of tragedy than anyone else in the Fray other than the fundies themselves."
I suppose that Scotus is a better judge of that than either you or me.
435. marshame - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:10 PM PT
Calgal
"You are doing more to help perpetuate the self-loathing attitudes that result in that kind of tragedy than anyone else in the Fray other than the fundies themselves."
Wow! That's pretty bad, CG! But at least you have us fundies to look down on.
It's so nice to have an anchor on the extreme end of any continuum!
436. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:14 PM PT
Marsha,
I'm betting IRL Scotty would come out to you before Elliot any day of the week.
Of course, he'd pick Sunday just to plague you.
And then do it twice. (bwahahahahahahaha)
437. marshame - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:15 PM PT
I have always like Scotus. His dilemma makes me feel more tender hearted toward him.
438. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:18 PM PT
Cellar,
"CG -- I've already told Scottie he can e-mail me. And I'm very serious about this."
Yes, I know. I wasn't addressing you at all. I'm sorry if you thought so. I hope he does email you. I've been encouraging him to talk to some of the "out" Fraygrants (particularly GJ) for a while now.
439. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:18 PM PT
Still, he's flung himself into the arms of Satan. It's gotta give you pause.
440. MrSocko - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:22 PM PT
Message #390, The Hussy:
In the context of this discussion, "liberal" is not an antonym for "conservative"; historically, the two are synonyms. I use the word in the same sense that anybody with a clue would describe America as basically being a liberal society. You ask whether I'm "implying that only liberal thinking is enlightened." Yes, of course.
By the way, anybody who knows me would describe me as being pretty right wing on most issues, albeit with a small number of glaring leftish fetishes. And lady, I am *not* a Roman Catholic. I'm "catholic," okay? Didn't they teach you the difference at Liberty University?
441. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:28 PM PT
CalGal:
"I suppose that Scotus is a better judge of that than either you or me."
Better than you, yes.
"I'm betting IRL Scotty would come out to you before Elliot any day of the week."
He already did, apparently. I'm sure the people who persuaded him to go through that "restorative therapy" bullshit were very much like Marsha.
442. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:31 PM PT
C'mon Psocko, go easy on the poor wretch. Yet another one of her stout-hearted Conservative comrades has come out of the closet today. The Log Cabin Club will have to find more spacious digs, I think.
443. MrSocko - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:34 PM PT
Do you mean Scooter?
444. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:35 PM PT
Apparently.
445. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:35 PM PT
Oh, that's right, I forgot. You have to be gay *and* a Democrat before it matters. Presumably it's best that gay Republicans just trot off and shoot themselves before the Christians get them.
446. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:37 PM PT
Oh hush.
447. philistine - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:40 PM PT
Not so! Being conservative is a choice, just like most Coke or Pepsi. With gentle therapy and the love of a caring community, most conservatives can live happy fulfilling lives as moderates or leftists.
I used to think conservatism was a disease, but thankfully I'm much more enlightened than that now.
448. mariagleason - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:40 PM PT
It's difficult for anyone to come out; imagine what it must be like for a conservative Republican. It took courage for Scotus to admit it here in Zandru's hells.
449. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:42 PM PT
Maria,
Hear, hear.
450. glendajean - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:45 PM PT
I've been away all day and Scotus comes out. Congratulations!
Thanks for letting us celebrate with you, ScotusA. Don't let the naysayers bother you -- closets take up too much energy.
451. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:47 PM PT
Yes, CalGal, keep assuring gay people that Republicans and Fundamentalists have their best interests at heart, it's all merely a "difference of opinion" rather than prejudice and bigotry.
452. philistine - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:47 PM PT
I have to admit that my mocking aside, I'm glad that I've never had to deal with what Scotus is dealing with. I certainly hope that he finds himself getting happier (not gayer, happier) as he continues on his life's path.
And getting back to the mockery, I also hope he improves his taste in politics, music and film.
453. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:49 PM PT
philistine
Oh lordy, I forgot about those last two! Politics aside, scooter's liable to be drummed out of the fraternity before he enters it!
454. glendajean - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:51 PM PT
Those fun loving Arizona boys. Warm and fuzzy.
455. MrSocko - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:52 PM PT
I thought elliot's advice to Scooter seemed pretty sound.
456. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:56 PM PT
Not that I'm encouraging him to become a slut, you understand.
457. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:56 PM PT
Elliot,
Message #451
I do no such thing. Nor do I tell them that the only way they'll get my acceptance and support is if they have the proper political views as well.
458. MrSocko - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:58 PM PT
Nooooo, I'm sure you're not. Just because I disapprove of a Hefneresque approach to sex doesn't mean I think *anybody* should be like MSURichard.
459. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:01 PM PT
CalGal:
On the contrary, you have made a career in the Fray of giving aid and comfort to those who really wish gay people would just disappear off the face of the Earth.
460. Msivorytower - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:06 PM PT
Chill out Calgal
Scotty made his bed with many of us long ago. Perhaps you were *lucky* and missed his quite lovely reparte with many here about a myriad of issues, including some rather derogatory behavior toward both tP and Elliot. And his attitude toward me is beyond polite hostility. Tell me, what should one do with the true confession?
So, he's struggling with his sexuality and suddenly some are in the dog house for not being more sympathetic and kind at an earlier junction?
Please, I hate to burst your bubble, but I've MET both tP and Elliot, and I can tell you WITH FULL confidence, that had he confided in either, they would NOT have mocked him. And had he chosen to confide in LadyC, he could have gained a sympathetic ear.
I'm sure we all wish him well, and hope he finds his path, but please, that doesn't suddenly absolve him of his part in past skirmishes with several fraygrants.
461. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:06 PM PT
glendajean
Life on the range... What can I say? It toughens you up.
462. glendajean - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:07 PM PT
Elliot, you've lost it. Your anger towards CalGal is your business. But when you accuse her of something as dumb (and untruthful) as #459, I've got to say something. You've lost it.
I've never witnessed CalGal being anything but welcome and open to gay people in the fray. I count her as a friend.
463. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:08 PM PT
MsIT
Thanks.
464. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:10 PM PT
Elliot,
"On the contrary, you have made a career in the Fray of giving aid and comfort to those who really wish gay people would just disappear off the face of the Earth. "
Really. What aid and comfort did you give Scotty--in all those months or years that you apparently suspected he was gay? And if you didn't suspect, then tell me what aid and comfort did tP give Scotty during all these years he suspected? Did you make it easier for him? Did you do anything to make it seem as if you'd welcome his news? Or reach out? You're so busy blaming the Baptists et. al. for creating a hostile world for gay people--what did *you* do, on an individual basis, make this particular world (the Fray) more comfortable for someone who was, indeed, giving every indication that he was deeply closeted and hating himself? Apart from kick him because his politics were wrong? Yes, St. Elliot, you did just fine with Scotty,didn't you?
And then tell me what I've done, other than *not* be unpleasant, to give aid and comfort to those who wish "gay people would just disappear off the face of the Earth"? Ask any of them if they are under the illusion that I agree with them.
465. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:11 PM PT
Hey, MsIT, as long as we're all veering wildly off-topic...
I am VERY TENTATIVELY (can't emphasize enough how tentatively) planning a trip to Austin, probably in February. I assume you'll be around, yes?
466. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:14 PM PT
GlendaJean: You're a relative newcomer to the Fray, and you haven't seen the things I've seen. CalGal has a long history of cozying up to homophobes.
467. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:16 PM PT
CalGall, don't you ever get tired of listening to yourself talk? I feel dirty every time I try to have a real conversation with you, but here goes: my initial comment to Lucky wasn't necessarily hostile -- in fact, I've rarely been truly hostile to him; I never took him or his opinions seriously enough. You'll note that his response to me set the tone, not the other way around. But please continue to remake the world any way you see fit. Stupid sick fool.
468. glendajean - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:18 PM PT
Elliot -- She's nice to people you don't like. Big deal. As offensive as that is to you, it is not even close to being homophobic.
469. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:21 PM PT
CalGal:
Oh stop with your phony "concern" about the tender sensibilities of Scotus. You cannot simultaneously kiss the butts of homophobic bigots like Kuligin and Boomerjeff and claim to be a friend of gay people. It just doesn't wash. Just another manifestation of CalGal's well-known "look at me, pick me" psychosis.
470. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:22 PM PT
Ms,
In the first place, this isn't about Scotty. And I'm not talking about his confession today. In fact, I'm not talking about *him* at all.
Elliot and tP, in particular, spend quite a bit of time telling me how bad I am for the gay community. As is evidenced by Elliot's recent posts. As if they have the only belief system that will create the proper world for gay people.
And in the meantime, what are they doing on an individual basis to help out? It's easy to be supportive of someone who just says, "I'm gay" and pat him on the back for his bravery. It's a lot harder to figure out a way to help someone who is having trouble accepting it. For Christ sake, the kid was 21 when he joined the Fray, lived in some godforsaken Southern state, was raised Baptist. What the hell *else* is he going to do when he figures out he's gay except start hating himself?
If someone who is devoutly Christian figures out that he's gay and is terrified of being rejected by people who will hate him because he's gay, wouldn't it be at least a little comforting to think that he'll be accepted by gay people?
Do they have to help him? No. But I am *fed up* with their attitude towards me on this issue. Because they didn't do *shit* with this particular gay person to make the world a little less hostile. So I don't want to hear any more about how I'm the scourge of gay people everywhere.
471. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:22 PM PT
Elliot,
"Oh stop with your phony 'concern' about the tender sensibilities of Scotus."
You have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. None.
472. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:23 PM PT
GJ:
"Elliot -- She's nice to people you don't like."
No, that's not it. Read more carefully.
473. glendajean - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:24 PM PT
So Elliot, to use your formula, if one kisses your butt, one is a friend of gay people?
474. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:28 PM PT
CalGal:
"So I don't want to hear any more about how I'm the scourge of gay people everywhere."
Too bad. You're going to keep hearing it as long as you continue to kiss up to gay people's worst enemies.
475. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:29 PM PT
BTW, I never seriously suspected Lucky was actually gay. I used to tease him with the "closet case" comments 'cause he was such a virulent homophobe. In fact, another Fraygrant pointed me to some of Lucky's recent comments, speculating about this, and I pooh-poohed the idea.
Keep in mind that I'm an equal-opportunity hater -- race, sex, orientation, religion -- everyone's fair game!
Hahahahahahaha!
But I guess, in the future, if someone is extremely obnoxious and homophobic, I should be nice to him JUST IN CASE he's struggling with his own orientation. Ah. I'll start with BobaFett....
476. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:32 PM PT
GJ:
"So Elliot, to use your formula, if one kisses your butt, one is a friend of gay people?"
Oh, you've given me so many possibilities with that one....
477. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:34 PM PT
Glendajean
Believe me, that's not the way to elliot's heart.
oops!
478. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:36 PM PT
tP,
How odd. I assumed you did know. I credit you with too much intelligence.
So in other words, you tell people you think they're gay because you know it works as an insult?
479. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:37 PM PT
See? I knew I'd feel dirty.
480. elliot803 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:42 PM PT
I never thought Scotus was gay, either, and I never said anything to indicate that I did. CalGal's making things up, as usual.
And, CalGal, while Scotus's revelation certainly warrants our understanding and support, I'm getting a little tired of your phony and hyperbolic oh-you-poor-thing bullshit. Scotus is an adult man, not a high-school kid, and this is 1998, not 1958. Not only has he been concealing his sexual orientation, he has quite a history of virulently homophobic commentary in the Fray, and he certainly deserves to be called to task for it.
481. mariagleason - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:42 PM PT
CalGal:
Here's the history. TMRtp was as openly gay when all this happy bantering began as he is now. Scotus, perhaps because he was in denial at the time, made nasty remarks about tp personally as well as about his sexuality. tp responded with 'closet case' remarks, etc., etc.
482. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:48 PM PT
calgallogic:
intelligence = being able to read minds
teasing = insulting
Eww! Eww! Ewww! I need to wash up....
483. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:55 PM PT
Maria,
I know the history. I'm not jumping to Scotty's defense--although anyone who has been paying attention would have seen a clear difference in his behavior when he returned in June. In fact, when tP posted those old remarks of his back in the last Gay Issues thread, I believe Scotty said that he'd said those things when he'd been young and stupid.
I'm just fed up with the two of them telling me that I'm hostile to gays.
If tP tells people "you're gay" as an insult--and can't even realize that maybe someone who is that virulently homophobic *might* be hiding something from himself--then who the fuck is he to tell *me* that I'm hostile to the gay community? Because I would never do the first, and as I said, I figured out about Scotty long before he told me. And acted towards him accordingly.
They are under no obligation to become do-gooders, or accept hostility like Scotty dished out. But neither should they be telling me (or anyone else who doesn't see only One Path to Enlightenment) about the harm I'm doing.
484. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:56 PM PT
Elliot,
Pay attention. I'm not saying oh, you poor thing for Scotus. (Although I would point out that Mississippi in 1998 is pretty much like anywhere else in 1958.)
485. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:00 PM PT
First of all, you stupid bint, the notion that you're hostile to homos is elliot's mantra, not mine.
Ugh.
Hey, does anybody know where I can get one of those contraband industrial-strength circus animal shower heads like on Seinfeld?
486. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:03 PM PT
tP,
Not true, but it's been awhile since the Gay Issues thread. Perhaps you've forgotten. I agree that you don't harp on it.
Seriously. A young, Baptist, right-wing-of-Attila-the-Hun guy is homophobic and the first thing you don't seek to eliminate is whether or not he's gay? Especially after he radically modifies his rhetoric--which he did when he returned to the Fray? I'm not being sarcastic; I'm asking.
I always check that out first and then move on to no, he's just an asshole. I was reasonably sure back in January/February that he was a closet case. And I assumed you were just working on the grounds that he was a closet case *and* an asshole.
487. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:03 PM PT
And Scotus, apologies for discussing you in the third person.
488. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:04 PM PT
TP,
Absolutely not!!!
(pssst! alrigh ladies, the guys are onto the shower massage bit now)
489. 109109 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:04 PM PT
Enough of Scotus as political football.
Let us move on.
Cllrdr is grappling with his sexual orientation as well.
But you didn't hear it from me.
490. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:05 PM PT
Hmmm... is CalGall a closet case or just an asshole?
I'll have to ponder this one.
491. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:06 PM PT
Niner,
I don't know how to break this to you, but you misunderstood.
Cellar wants to grapple with *you*.
492. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:06 PM PT
Now, Niner... there's somebody I'd better go easy on.
Just in case.
493. marshame - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:11 PM PT
Well, let me stick up for CalGal by saying that she has *never* offered me (a card-carrying thumper) either aid or comfort. She does on occasion laugh at my jokes, which endears her to me far more than any aid or comfort, but that's probably because a sense of humor can be a rarity around here. Especially in the current conversation. I mean, c'mon guys, have we stooped to bashing those who don't bash the bashers hard enough, or what??
494. 109109 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:11 PM PT
Cal
Untrue. He is the black gay author of an uncle I never had.
Tp
How are your teeth? Teeth are very important to me.
495. mariagleason - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:16 PM PT
CalGal,
I think it's a political thing most of all. I myself don't know how anyone who is gay and/or cares about gay issues can support a party that actively persecutes gay people OR those people from that party who make it clear that this stance meets with their approval. There are so many horrific consequences attached to being gay in this country that I shudder at even being friendly with Republicans who are not doing what they can to change this attitude, not that I think they'll have any success.
There are some members of my family who are rabid homophobes. The discussion always comes up when they feel they can tag-team me into embarrassment regarding my views. I never give in, naturally, and it makes me think the less of them.
You are apparently among those who can separate issues from the people who vehemently support second-class citizenship for an entire group of Americans. Many of us can't do it; the stakes are too high.
I don't think you're hostile to gays, but sometimes supporting gays and gay issues means one has to range oneself against people who may be friends. I think you're uncomfortable doing this.
496. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:17 PM PT
How Ally McBeal.
497. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:19 PM PT
(Oops. Sorry maria. #496 was in response to #494.)
498. mariagleason - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:19 PM PT
I would have still laughed, tp!
499. 109109 - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:20 PM PT
maria
You speak general truth. In the end, I find myself much more inclined toward an individual rather than an ideology. I always lose my balance manning the battlements. My bar for non-commiseration is woefully low: no violent felons and no people who work at Renaissance festivals wearing clothes from the time while simultaneously eating mutton.
500. cllrdr - Dec. 15, 1998 - 4:22 PM PT
"Cllrdr is grappling with his sexual orientation as well."
Huh?
Where does *this* come from, Niner? Cause I said I found Charlize Theron attractive? Don't be ridiculous. If I had to choose between Charlize and a certain lawyer of my acquaintance, it would be the sexlawyer all the way.