302. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 11, 1998 - 3:13 PM PT
Who me? No, not at all. Guys who throw around that kind of bullshit have their own stunted sexual acknowledgment or growth to deal with, which makes their insults pretty thin.
303. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 11, 1998 - 3:15 PM PT
re 301:
Again, I don't mean to speak for MizK, but if her previous posts, and those of others, are any indication, she's aware of how others perceive her with acute, crystal clarity.
304. toonces - Dec. 11, 1998 - 3:18 PM PT
Re: Message #302
Bullshit, KurtMondaugen. I would bet money you have gotten into a physical fight over some guy calling you a pussy at least once in your life.
305. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 11, 1998 - 3:21 PM PT
You lose. Pay up.
306. toonces - Dec. 11, 1998 - 3:22 PM PT
I don't feel any aversion at all to people who are both sexes. I confess I'm a little curious about how they, um...
307. toonces - Dec. 11, 1998 - 3:37 PM PT
Re: Message #221
/*
How does the fact that things typically "feminine" are considerabled less valuable constrain you?
*/
If you were fundamentally female and behaved as a female, your fundamental behavior and being would be held in low regard by your entire society, but held in even lower regard if you did not behave as a female. You don't think that would constrain your behavior?
308. ChristinO - Dec. 11, 1998 - 5:55 PM PT
A good friend of mine is making a short film about men who insult one another by calling each other pussies. It's quite funny. I can't wait to do the voice-overs for it.
309. LadyChaos - Dec. 11, 1998 - 7:12 PM PT
toonces,
I think I understand what you're trying to say, and it's not a terribly bad point. However, this society offers us a binary choice, more or less, to present ourselves as male or female. All of use have feelings appropriate to both genders, but if I *feel* more female than male, then the best way to resolve my feelings *and* avoid societal censure/isolation is to successfully present myself (i.e., pass) as a female.
I'm sure you will find it interesting that most Native American tribes (before they became infitrated by the sexual paranoia of western religion) treated the transgendered as spiritual gifts who were bridges between the masculine and the feminine. As I understand it, in day to day life, they dressed as women and were usually appointed or some such, but in times of war they assumed a male identity and could be counted upon to fight fiercely.
I'll see if I can't find a book on the subject on Amazon.
310. LadyChaos - Dec. 11, 1998 - 7:14 PM PT
Oops! . . . I left out a word.
" . . .in day to day life, they dressed as women and were usually appointed or some such, "
should read:
" . . . in day to day life, they dressed as women and were usually appointed *shamans* or some such, "
311. RyckNelson - Dec. 11, 1998 - 8:08 PM PT
Um... I'm not sure they were shamans. I would like to see what you find out. I think most of those males were relagated to attendant status. I think it could be said they were likened to Eunuchs. But that is why I would like to see what you find. I'm not sure now that you've brought this up. I have never heard of the feminine males in Native American culture as fierce fighters, when called upon to be such. Please advise.
312. LadyChaos - Dec. 11, 1998 - 8:28 PM PT
Here is a link to some books on the subject of transgenderism in Native American tribes. I'll try to find an authoritative overview to link to in a moment.
313. LadyChaos - Dec. 11, 1998 - 8:39 PM PT
Here is another article on the subject, although written from more of a gay slant.
I'll try to post some more satisfactory links tomorrow.
314. LadyChaos - Dec. 11, 1998 - 11:49 PM PT
marshame,
I'm still waiting for your response to the information I linked for you in my Message #280.
315. cllrdr - Dec. 12, 1998 - 8:01 AM PT
Glad you found the link, LadyC. I was rustling through my library to find the book I got about it several years ago and couldn't manage put my hands on it (damn!) Gay politicos have always cited the "Berdache" in claiming Native American "acceptance" of gays and lesbians. But on the basis of the available information, it would appear that transgenderism is what's really involved here. Rather than recoil at the "Berdache" and banish him/her, a special -- very important -- status was created. He/she was regarded as a "holy" figure of sorts for the tribe. However the role of the "Berdache" doesn't answer the question of how Native Amerians regarded same-sexuality as I've experienced it.
I haven't been posting here because I can't imagine what it would be like be the other gender. I like my body, and those of other men. My romantic/erotic life is entirely directed towards other men and the bodies the Easter Bunny gave them.
316. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 8:33 AM PT
cllrdr,
It's an interesting footnote that, as we speak, there is an unspoken battle between gays and transgenders to lay claim to the historical meaning of the "Berdache." I think that one could make the argument for both sides, but the words and iconoclasty of the "berdache" were clearly slanted towards transgenderism, as you note.
I'll try to think of an intelligent way to address the question you seem to have about this and post it later. For now, I have to get studying.
317. Jenerator - Dec. 12, 1998 - 10:32 AM PT
LadyChaos,
Interesting link on acceptance of transgendered persons in Indian heritage. I wonder how come Indians haven't been more vocal about it if its a part of normal life for them and is somehwat common.(?) Is this acceptance of or practice of limited to a particular tribe that you know of? Personally no Native Americans I've talked to (mostly Cherokee) have ever even brought up the issue of transgenderism.
318. cllrdr - Dec. 12, 1998 - 10:38 AM PT
Well, Jen , that in turn brings up how vocal it has been possible for Native Americans to be about almost anything. As they don't run their own country, no one has been terribly interested in what they have to say about it.
Except Marlon Brando. Gack!
I'm glad to hear you're venturing into the territory -- leaving Marlon free to waddle elsewhere.
319. Jenerator - Dec. 12, 1998 - 10:46 AM PT
cllrdr,
Is that a compliment or an insult?
320. cllrdr - Dec. 12, 1998 - 10:52 AM PT
It's a compliment, of course!
Treasure it, Jen.
321. Jenerator - Dec. 12, 1998 - 11:21 AM PT
I will!;-)
322. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 1:54 PM PT
Jenerator,
The conquest of Christian Europeans pretty much wiped out such practices for centuries, so it's hard to tell exactly how many tribes recognized "berdache" members. Nevertheless, the generally accepted figure is that 130 to 150 tribes recognized the practice.
As an example of why the practice died out for many years, the Spanish Conquistadores wrote of having rounded up such "perverts" and fed them to the dogs. I have actually seen an etching in which smiling Conquistadores stand looking on as wild dogs tear apart a group of Native American males who seemed to be wearing female attire. But even then, it wasn't until late last century to early this century, when tribal culture became almost non-existent, that the practice really died out or became little known. I have met a number of Native Americans who are completely ignorant on the subject, and indeed some of those who have been "christianized" are downright hostile to the notion and adamantly refuse to believe that their culture could have condoned such a thing.
323. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 1:59 PM PT
I should correct the obvious contradiction between those two paragraphs.
European conquerors wiped out the practice of "berdache-ism" in many tribes early on, but the practice remained in other tribes, and can still be found today, in others. By early this century, though, it seems to have quickly gone the way of other repressed aspects of Native American culture. (When you think about the fact that whites almost succeeded in wiping out Native American language, itself, it's not surprising that other practices nearly died out, as well. The word "berdache" is actually a rather derogatory French word that means something like a male prostitute. Indian tribes had various terms for the transgendered. My personal favorite is "two-spirits.")
324. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 2:04 PM PT
Jen,
With regard to your point that Native American acquaintances haven't brought up the subject of transgenderism, it is my understanding that those tribal members who are aware of the practice are very reticent to reveal it to whites. This is rooted in what I think is a valid fear of how whites will react (I mean, how many people are going to spontaneously mention to a devout Baptist that their culture recognizes such "perversions" as valid?).
The author of "The Zuni Man-Woman," who I saw speak in California years ago, had to spend a lot of time gaining the trust of one tribe before the elders even acknowledged that they had a "two-spirit" living on the reservation.
325. RyckNelson - Dec. 12, 1998 - 3:45 PM PT
Lady, the links were a good source. I'll be looking to see if you've found others.
I am interested to see if you can bring clldr into a discussion of the transgender issue. Concerning what it may mean to the gay community and the transgender community. Do these co-mingle? Is there some problem with the definition of a transgender for the gay person? Or, visa-verse?
I don't want a mutually exclusive lecture. I want to read you and clldr discuss it and maybe I can ask questions if they come to me. As can everyone else interested, curious or whatever.
326. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 6:21 PM PT
Ryck,
I think there is a large assumption out there that transgenders are a subset of gays. Many transgenders identify strongly with gays - I'm particularly speaking of the drag queens - and certainly the cultures intermingle to a point where they are at times hardly distinguishable. I do think, however, that there are important distinctions to be made.
As I understand things, the gay rights movement as we know it began more or less with the Stonewall riot. Among the first persons to begin that protest were a number of drag queens, and so transgenders were closely identified with the gay rights movement in the early going. As the gay rights movement grew more sophisticated, though, the drag queens were shed as an image liability, because there was a desire to create a solid "clean-cut-guy-next-door" image for the movement. Also, during this time, there was a general awakening among other transgenders, such as transsexuals and those male to female transgenders whose sexual orientation was toward women. These groups have come to realize that they have some political issues that are distinct from the gay rights movement, and indeed the largest gay rights organizations have excluded transgender issues from their agendas.
The most obvious distinct issue that transgenders have is that, whereas gays simply seek the right to be free from discrimination and to have their domestic relationships legally recognized, transgenders seek what I would call "transitional rights." In brief, changing one's sex is disruptive enough to one's life without the added stress of losing a job, having to move to another city, and having to restart one's career at the bottom rung again. The irony that underscores the career disruptions is that transitioning is hugely expensive. While most people just consider the reassignment surgery (which runs around $30,000 for male to females, and $100,000 for female to males), a transgender also mu
327. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 6:22 PM PT
. . . a transgender also must pay costs for psychological counseling, endocrinologists, hormone treatments, electrolysis, etc., all out of pocket.
These costs, the lack of insurance support, familial isolation, and difficulty in being taken seriously when seeking a job are all factors that lead many young transgenders into prostitution and pornography, which as you know has its connections to numerous life-shortening problems such as AIDS and drugs. Also, many transgenders try to save money by smuggling hormones in from Mexico and getting surgeries done in Mexico by doctors who have lost their licenses to practice in the U.S. but who are willing to cut you up at a fraction of the U.S. cost.
The transgender political consciousness is only now emerging from the Jerry Springer stage, and we know that we can't count on the support of any other minority group, so it will take years to come to grips with these issues.
328. RyckNelson - Dec. 12, 1998 - 6:29 PM PT
Could a transgender political force become reality, such as it has started with the gay community?
329. LadyChaos - Dec. 12, 1998 - 6:54 PM PT
Ryck,
I doubt you will see anything on that scale. Transgenderism covers a wide range of behaviors and, ironically, the thing that we want most in life is to blend in and be left alone. Drag queen antics notwithstanding, few of us actually enjoy being the center of attention. (That's one reason I don't like clubbing in So. Beach - too much risk of becoming a tourist attraction!) We're also struggling to resolve the terms. Transgender, as a term, has only recently come into vogue as covering everything from fetish dressers to what I call "primary" transsexuals (think of Ludovic in Ma Vie en Rose). The transsexuals find the fetishists embarrassing, which is often understandable. The hetero cross-dressers are mostly deeply closeted (a lot of doctors, lawyers, engineers, and Fortune 500 ceo's, there - hell, I even knew one who was a former NFL player), but ironically they are the best organized of the various groups (based on what I've seen). This civic-mindedness comes from the fact that they are well-entrenched in straight society by day, and know the ins and outs of organization better than the other subgroups. But the hetero crossdressers are unlikely to ever address things beyond making sure that the police are educated in how to comport themselves when encountering a crossdressed person and giving panel lectures at college human sexuality classes (which I've done, and it's a great feeling!).
It will take some time for transsexuals to develop a "middle class" before you'll start to see the more radical changes take effect. That may not happen for another twenty years or so, in my estimation. I hope it will be earlier, but I'm not holding my breath.
330. RyckNelson - Dec. 12, 1998 - 7:18 PM PT
Excellent insite, as I had hoped you would give. Thank you lady. It's good to see this in the open I am not sure who is offended by this topic but I'm not. I am glad you are here to be open. It means that I and any other reader can know the issues transexuals face. I think that is very important. We have most recently been expose with an Ally McBeal episode which was reaired a week ago. It showed an Hispanic youth who was going through a lot of turmoil as a crossdresser. He hadn't been represented as a transexual and was shown as a person in need of help, and a person who should accept that others cared enough to help. It was a bit confusing all around.
Again, your clear insite is quite valuable in my estimation. Thank you.
331. LadyChaos - Dec. 13, 1998 - 1:46 PM PT
Btw, for a more outrageous yet somehow affecting personal narrative of life as a black drag queen from the Florida panhandle, to prison, and on to stardom, this autobiography of Lady Chablis is a great little read. I picked it up in a Barnes and Noble (of all places!) in North Carolina last spring and read it in about two hours. The Lady offer some insights into things with which I personally have no experience.
332. Jenerator - Dec. 13, 1998 - 2:15 PM PT
LadyChaos,
re Message #324
"With regard to your point that Native American acquaintances haven't
brought up the subject of transgenderism, it is my understanding that
those tribal members who are aware of the practice are very reticent to
reveal it to whites."
Why would they be reticent about it more so than other issues if it such a common practice and is considered by many as holy? Nowadays, it seems that more and more people are curious and accepting of Native American history and culture. In fact, it is almost en vogue to practice tribal spiritism, collect Indian pottery, or go to pow wows. As you know, certain New Age movements are quite the rage, and Native American culture is too.
"This is rooted in what I think is a valid fear of how
whites will react (I mean, how many people are going to spontaneously
mention to a devout Baptist that their culture recognizes such
"perversions" as valid?)."
This is a good point in some ways. I would not expect or anticipate any Native Americans to spontaneously mention anything sacred to a devout person of any religion outside of the Indian one. Just as I would not do that to them! The Indians I know at University are quick to talk with me about issues because I am polite to them, I'm not trying to covert them, and they are interested in the fact that my father's father lived on a reservation.
(cont.)
333. Jenerator - Dec. 13, 1998 - 2:17 PM PT
Last month was Native American Awareness month. I met and spent time with all kinds of Indians from various tribes, Sioux, Cherokee, etc. When discussing religion and shaman, not one single person even suggested, let alone offered, any knowledge of transgendered persons. My point for saying all of this is NOT to insinuate that you lie about Native Americans practicing this. I believe you. I just don't think that it is has been as widely practiced or accepted as you think it has been. It seems as though it has been limited to certain regions, and certain tribes, and /or it is has not been practiced for many, many centuries.
334. LadyChaos - Dec. 13, 1998 - 6:19 PM PT
Jenerator,
Just when I start to have hope for you, you again expose yourself as an idiot who is unable to read.
I never said that the practice is currently widespread; quite the opposite. And I did say that many Native Americans are ignorant about the history of the practice. The author of the Zuni Man-Woman was only able to learn about it from tribal elders who, as I said, were reticent to discuss it with a white man.
"Why would they be reticent about it more so than other issues if it such a common practice and is considered by many as holy?"
Because: 1) it is no longer a "common practice;" 2) the assimilation of Indians has led many of them to hold similar views to whites on such issues as homosexuality and transgenderism, and; 3) those tribal members who know of the practice understand that it would be seen by many whites as perverse and offensive.
"I just don't think that it is has been as widely practiced or accepted as you think it has been. It seems as though it has been limited to certain regions, and certain tribes, and /or it is has not been practiced for many, many centuries."
I haven't made any assertions at all wrt how widespread the practice is or was. I have only referred to the books that I linked to and quoted some basic figures from the authorities. If you want to contest the findings of professional anthropologists who have invested years of their lives in the subject, I suggest that you write to them (although I would recommend reading what they've written, first).
In any case, your speculation is based purely on what tribal members *haven't* told you. This is a clear logical fallacy that you indulge in, that because person "A" has not asserted the existence of "B", "B" must not exist to the extent to which person "C" has suggested.
335. LadyChaos - Dec. 13, 1998 - 6:20 PM PT
Native Americans suffered a holocaust during the last two centuries, one in which they were displaced from their lands, robbed of their language, and coerced into adopting Anglo-Christian customs. As I said, many "two-spirits" were savagely murdered by European conquerors in the early years of white settlement. I don't understand your inability to grasp the possibility that what may have been common practice two hundred years ago is barely known of, today.
336. Jenerator - Dec. 13, 1998 - 6:23 PM PT
LC,
No need to be rude, I believe all that you've written.
337. VicKuligin - Dec. 14, 1998 - 7:27 AM PT
I don't.
338. jonesatlaw - Dec. 14, 1998 - 7:56 AM PT
I have heard of the practices that LadyC refers to in early ethnologies of the Sioux. It wasn't discussed as being generalized. However, since the thrust of the text was focused on the western Sioux, this really doesn't tell us anything about the existance or non-existance of the practice outside the Sioux. As I recall, the disucssion was much more matter of fact. These folk, usually men, simply lived as women. They followed traditional female roles and duties, including marriage. There wasn't much discussion of the spiritual aspect of it, and I would be surprised that it would form the basis of any spiritual decision by the Sioux. I would defer to anyone with more personal knowlege of Lakota, and other traditions.
339. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 10:06 AM PT
I don't believe that Vic is a missionary, either, since I haven't seen any evidence in person that he is.
Perhaps Vic could avoid making an ass of himself (again) by actually reading some of the texts to which this discussion has referred.
Jones,
A definition of "spiritual" is needed in order to respond to your point. My understanding is that Native American culture once deemed everything as being possessed of a spirit. The "spiritual" reference to the berdache was often that they were indeed of "two spirits," both male and female. It has also been widely asserted that two-spirits often held important positions in the tribe as shamans, or as givers of names, etc. I don't know of any assertions beyond that.
Jenerator,
I apologize for my rudeness. You really should read more carefully, though, before trying to refute what somebody has posted. Your blind willingness to accept the postings of those who agree with you as gospel truth is mirrored by your blind mistrust of posts by those who generally disagree with you. Neither course leads to wisdom.
Vic,
Did I say that you're an asshole?
340. Jenerator - Dec. 14, 1998 - 10:47 AM PT
LadyChaos,
"I apologize for my rudeness."
Apology accepted, I apologize for coming across in a rude way, it wasn't my intention.
" You really should read more
carefully, though, before trying to refute what somebody
has posted. Your blind willingness to accept the postings
of those who agree with you as gospel truth is mirrored
by your blind mistrust of posts by those who generally
disagree with you."
The only posts I read on the matter of transgenderism in here were yours. (Also I do not blindy mistrust posts/ers that I disagree with)
"Neither course leads to wisdom."
I agree.
341. glendajean - Dec. 14, 1998 - 11:39 AM PT
Lady C,
A few months ago, an old college friend called to tell me he was a hetero cross dresser. He's just started dealing with it in therapy. It's been hell on his marriage. It's interesting that the only people he's felt free enough to talk about it (outside wife & therapist) are a few gay friends. I was curious that you said that this group is highly organized. Can you enlighten? Thanks.
342. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 11:46 AM PT
LadyC,
You mentioned that fetishists have been tacked to the coattails of the Transgender Pre-Movement(I have hope),but it seems to me that fetishism is markedly different from transgenderism in a couple of essential ways that make it more a more harmful than helpful association.
Firstly I can't imagine that anyone in the world idententifies himself with a foot. A transgendered person identifies with a gender. A man with a shoe fetish doesn't identify with feet but rather derives sexual gratification from the site of torturously high arches and the power issues involved.
Fetishism as I understand it is specifically and predominantly about sexual gratification rather than gender identity. Scatological fixations, bestiality, exhibitionism, necrophilia, bondage, sado-masochism, smoking. (No lie, there's money to be made in D grade film just SMOKING without ever taking off a stitch). These are not desires resulting from being born in the wrong body or with the wrong social identity.
The only fetish that offers any link between Transgendered people and fetishists is transvestitism, but there are cross dressers and then there are Cross Dressers. There are people who cross dress for sexual gratification alone and then there are people who cross-dress because of gender identity and I think it's important to note that this isn't just semantic difference.
(cont)
343. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 11:47 AM PT
(cont)
Modern medicine is more than happy to correct all kinds of so-called mistakes that nature makes. We have plastic surgery, wigs, shoe lifts, drug therapy make-up and prothetic limbs to accomodate our personal view and the societal view of ourselves. Society already accepts that these things can and should be "fixed" if a person so desires. American Society (we're far from the only ones, but for the sake of discussion) is quite a bit slower in coming around about anything remotely sexual in nature. I mean, the missionary position between a legally married man and woman is still the only permissible sex act in some dozen states.
I guess what I'm saying is do you feel that greater and more quickly derived acceptance could be gained for Transgendered people if they could be separated from the overtly sexual issues inherent in fetishism and even to a great extent in the Gay and Lesbian Movement? Or is it better to find safety in numbers regardless?
344. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 11:48 AM PT
(Psst!)
Hi GlendaJean!
I've missed you!
345. CoralReef - Dec. 14, 1998 - 11:51 AM PT
If I were a woman for a day...
...hmmmm....
1. I'd be much shorter. So walking down a croded street would suddenly be more claustrophobic!
2. No longer being a man I wouldn't have that male syndrome of 'Oh yeah, I could have made it in the major leagues if I'd really tried.'
346. harper - Dec. 14, 1998 - 12:11 PM PT
Did anyone see the Washington Post article about the mother of a transgendered woman who sued the paramedics and the hospital who treated her. There was an auto accident and when the EMT cut Tyra Hunter's pants to treat her, they found out that she was a male. Apparently that led to some discussion, laughing, and delay of treatment. The same thing happened at the hospital, when treatment was delayed because the doctor was taken aback to discover that the patient was male. Tyra died because her lungs filled with fluid, which could have been suctioned out in a timely manner to save her life. Her mother was awarded $2.9 million.
I know a transgendered playwright who has written and produced a play called "The Berdache." Alas, I have not had the opportunity to see it, but it sounded very interesting.
And, just as a note (since the "Gender & Orientation" thread is dead), the American Psychiatric Association has joined the American Psychological Association in stating that homosexuality cannot be "cured" because it is not a disorder. Both professional associations discredit "restorative therapy."
347. seadate - Dec. 14, 1998 - 12:27 PM PT
Woman for a day?
I'd fly to Palm Desert, CA and enjoy a "the works" at the spa. With any remaining credit, I expect I would go buy shoes of every style and color (I don't understand why I'd want a lot of shoes for one day, but I'm sure that's what I'd do as a female).
As a guy, I spend virtually every waking moment playing golf while at a resort - sorry Harper, that's just the way it is.
348. ChristiPeters - Dec. 14, 1998 - 12:29 PM PT
"Apparently that led to some discussion, laughing, and delay of treatment. The same thing happened at the hospital, when treatment was delayed because the doctor was taken aback to discover that the patient was male. Tyra died because her lungs filled with fluid, which could have been suctioned out in a timely manner to save her life. Her mother was awarded $2.9 million."
OH
My
GOD!
Why, oh why are we humans so cruel to each other!?
349. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 12:56 PM PT
Christi,
Because there's only so much entertainment to be had from television.
350. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 1:29 PM PT
Christin,
Fetish dressers get lumped with the rest of us because the external manifestations are so hard to separate. Until the professionals sort out the terminology, our "movement" will be held up at the gate, so to speak.
glendajean,
You shouldn't be surprised that the hetero crossdresser would come to you and other gay friends, first. Gays are the only other group that can remotely understand the feelings of isolation and personal shame that comes with wanting to be something that society says is so "perverse."
But like I said, the hetero crossdressers are actually exceptionally well-organized amongst themselves. There are a number of groups in every major (and now not-so-major) metropolitan area which have socials in private homes in which wives and other family members are included. If you let me know where your friend lives, I might be able to come up with a list of contacts for him. If your friend is on AOL, he can go to keyword: "TCF", or "transgender community forum" for a listing of all types of resources, broken down by geographical area. These resources are not comprehensive, but they present a pretty good starting point.
The absolute best group in the L.A. area (for married TV's) is one called CHIC, and I'm pretty sure your friend could get ahold of them through the L.A. County sex counseling information service (their e-mail address on AOL is out of date).
Anyway, let me know!
351. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 1:32 PM PT
harper,
As part of my involvement with a social club out West, I occasionally did speaker panels for EMT's and police departments to teach about crossdressed and transgendered persons precisely because of an unfortunate past history of incidents such as the one you describe.
352. glendajean - Dec. 14, 1998 - 1:34 PM PT
Thanks, Lady C. I'll pass on that info to him. I really appreciate your sharing about tg issues in the fray.
ChristinO -- hey back to you.
353. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 1:37 PM PT
glendajean,
I wanted to add that, if your friend's psychologist doesn't know much about this issue, your friend should run, not walk, to one that does. He can find a list of transgender-friendly shrinks on the AOL "TCF" site, among others.
354. glendajean - Dec. 14, 1998 - 1:57 PM PT
I think the person he is seeing is being very helpful. He has introduced him to another person who is a cross dresser. From what he has told me, the therapist has been very supportive in dealing with the issue and in my friend's new level of honesty and openness with his wife.
This is all down in the South, so there's all that other stuff (gender expectations and violence). I tell him to be careful when he shops.
355. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 2:05 PM PT
glendajean,
It sounds like your friend is off on a good footing.
Texas has some of the largest hetero crossdresser groups, btw, though I'm not sure if that is where your friend is located.
356. glendajean - Dec. 14, 1998 - 2:29 PM PT
Lady C -- I feel about this sort of like I did when I dealt with my own sexuality years ago. "It's a whole new world." There are so many things about life that I was unprepared for growing up in Waco, Texas. (g)
BTW, I certainly got the sense of what you wrote when you described your reaction to Vie en Rose. The actor who played the little boy was incredible in both showing his strength in refusing to lie and his vulnerability to the shame of his parents and his neighbors. It was a powerful movie and I don't know if I have seen anything else like it that describes what a child who is tg feels or imagines.
357. marshame - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:03 PM PT
Lady Chaos
I read your link in your Message #280, and I found it to be very interesting. However, I don't think that we can jump to conclusions on the basis of one report of the study of one feature of one brain locus from only 6 dead male-to-female transgendered persons. (They were compared to 9 homosexuals and 23 presumed heterosexuals - all dead, all ages, all manner of cause of death.)
Obviously, research needs to continue.
One interesting aspect to the article: of the six male-to-female transgenders, two were male-oriented, three were female oriented, and one was both. What does this mean? Is a male-oriented male-to-female transgender a man who feels as a woman and is attracted to men sexually? And therefore, a female oriented male-to-female trangender would be a man who feels as a woman and is attracted to other women sexually? Is that correct?
358. elliot803 - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:09 PM PT
"And, just as a note (since the "Gender & Orientation" thread is dead), the American Psychiatric Association has joined the American Psychological Association in stating that homosexuality cannot be "cured" because it is not a disorder. Both professional associations discredit "restorative therapy.""
You hear that, marshame?
And I'll go further: not only doesn't the kind of "restorative therapy" promoted by your fundamentalist friends work, it is a form of psychological abuse.
359. marshame - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:16 PM PT
"You hear that, marshame? "
And who said political correctness was dead? This is just further evidence of the politicization of AIDS and other homosexual related issues that have been treated politically rather than from a health perspective.
360. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:23 PM PT
Huh? You don't think the American Psychiatric Assoc. and American Psychological Assoc. aren't speaking from a clinical perspective?
361. marshame - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:24 PM PT
No, I think they're responding to political pressure.
362. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:32 PM PT
Political pressure from whom? Do you have any substantiation, or is this just a hunch?
363. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:35 PM PT
Just a note on political pressure of the Psychiatric community:
Without it they'd still be denying most female sexuality. Women would still be undergoing complete hysterectomies to cure their "uppity" attitudes and depression and most people would still think that Clitoris is a dinosaur.
364. Jenerator - Dec. 14, 1998 - 4:52 PM PT
People have thought of the clitoris as a dinosaur? Maybe in Kenya, but not in America!
365. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 5:02 PM PT
It's a play on words, Jen, but not that far off the mark. There was quite a lot of material printed by the medical community that female orgasm (when acknowledged as a real occurrance)was dangerous to not only the woman's health but also to the health of her partner. Not to mention all the stuff and nonsense about "vaginal orgasms" and the very popular idea that proper, sane, good women didn't have any sexual feelings whatsoever.
366. Jenerator - Dec. 14, 1998 - 5:07 PM PT
It's true that women were not supposed to express any kind of overt sexuality, but the times have definitely changed!
Just read the headlines of any women's magazines.
"How to have that sexy affair with your coworker"
"15 ways to have incredible sex"
"One Night Stands: Who says they're for men only"
Etc. etc.
I don't think that the American Psychiatry Association is in any danger of getting too conservative on us.
367. ChristinO - Dec. 14, 1998 - 5:28 PM PT
My point was that we take female sexuality as a given now but that hasn't always been the case. It took a lot of hard work and activism----quite political much of it----to gain the acceptance that we have. The political nature of the fight does not in any way automatically invalidate the rightness of the position.
368. cllrdr - Dec. 14, 1998 - 5:40 PM PT
You're missing the point, Christin. Religion always claims to be "above" Politics.
The truth is Religion *is* Politics. At its most absolute.
"Do as I say or else, because the Creator of All Things Will Send You To Hell if you don't."
369. Jenerator - Dec. 14, 1998 - 6:12 PM PT
Cllrdr,
You're the one bringing religion into the discussion.
370. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 6:44 PM PT
marshame,
I agree that more research needs to be done; however, this brain study is an example of the current prevailing thought on the cause of transgender behavior.
"Is a male-oriented male-to-female transgender a man who feels as a woman and is attracted to men sexually? And therefore, a female oriented male-to-female trangender would be a man who feels as a woman and is attracted to other women sexually? Is that correct?"
Yes. As you might have noticed in the brain study, this part of the brain that appears to affect gender identity also appears to work independent of sexual preference. I have personally noticed that sexual preference among transgenders is often more vague than that among biological women. I find myself to be attracted to both (but a man has to be a little more "special" to catch my eye - I still consider most women to be works of art). No, I don't sleep around. I'm very faithful.
371. cllrdr - Dec. 14, 1998 - 7:03 PM PT
"You're the one bringing religion into the discussion."
That's right,Jen.*I'm* the one "bringing Religion into the discussion." Just like *I'm* the one bringing same-sexuality into the discussion.
All the time.
Except, of course, when you do.
But that doesn't count. Right, Jen?
372. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 7:19 PM PT
cllrdr,
What are you doing here? Get in line at the Eternal Lake of Fire and get ready to take your medicine, you evil pervert!
373. cllrdr - Dec. 14, 1998 - 8:15 PM PT
I've got to find my thong, first. I never go swimming in lakes without it.
374. LadyChaos - Dec. 14, 1998 - 8:19 PM PT
Have you waxed?
375. MrSocko - Dec. 14, 1998 - 10:44 PM PT
Message #366
Obviously you were too busy acquiring A-levels in religion at Liberty University to ever take up philosophy. Simple logic would tell you that if what the women's magazines claimed about female sexual adventurism were true, then their claims would hardly sell magazines. The reason such claims (and their cooked statistics) are so surprising is because they are almost entirely false. Most wildly promiscuous women, and men, are generally regarded by adult company as being risible, if not pestilential.
In my view and observation, the only real change in sexual attitudes among civilized adults over recent decades is that most people quite properly, and ethically, distinguish between pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and civilized (straight) individuals take no issue with homosexuality per se or with transgenderism. Because you're basically an uncivilized person, you choose to separate yourself from enlightened, liberal thought on both issues.
376. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 15, 1998 - 7:07 AM PT
Re: Message #358, elliot803.
"And I'll go further: not only doesn't the kind of "restorative therapy" promoted by your fundamentalist friends work, it is a form of psychological abuse."
I'd agree. Sure as hell didn't help me any.
377. marjoribanks - Dec. 15, 1998 - 7:37 AM PT
Scotus,
I first heard about this "restorative therapy" when one of my favorite English soccer players ( Fashanu) was undergoing it. He was deeply miserable, abandoned his career, and committed suicide some years later. Since then, I've heard/read about several such cases. Just last week, that Huffington fellow allowed as how his own sessions of "restorative therapy" led to the most unhappy period of his life.
You are lucky and smart enough to have gotten yourself out of the clutches of that stuff, it appears. Good show.
378. harper - Dec. 15, 1998 - 7:45 AM PT
An interesting film on gender switching is "Orlando." The protagonist starts life as a man in Elizabethan times and one day wakes up as a woman, with all the gender bias that involves (the transformation takes place in the late 17th or early 18th century), such as the fact that she no longer owns the ancestral home because as a woman she can't own propetry. The film touches on attitudes toward gender over several centuries. As a fun aside, Queen Elizabeth I is played by Quentin Crisp ("The Naked Civil Servant"), who once described himself as "one of the stately homos of England." It's a role he was born to play.
379. jonesatlaw - Dec. 15, 1998 - 8:00 AM PT
I would offer a thought on restorative therapy. I am afraid that sexual orientation and identity are probably distributed on a double bell curve. (I apologize for my lack of statistical knowledge, I'm sure that there is a more accurate technical discription)
I'm am sure that people who fall between those two peeks could be shoved either way thorough therapy, and the intense social pressure to join either "norm." It may be possible that some of these folk really are happy with the shift, being freed from societal pressure and their own discomfort with their position. Some people may be more definitely anchored in the middle, and come to accept their bisexual nature.
But common sense tells me that I never chose to be heterosexual. I observe my son, who is now nine years old, and notice that he has been interested in women in bikini's etc far earlier than I would expect any sexual interest in them. I don't think that he will "choose" to be gay. ( but if he is gay, he is, and he'll still be my pride and joy). I don't belive that it is a conscious choice, it is something inherent. While it is true that some fetishism is hardly a choice, the usual goal of treatment is to manage those feelings and direct the behavior in a way which the patient is comfortable with, and which doesn't expose them to negative consequences. Converting gays to "straightness" is like converting horses to donkeys. It may be easier to convince a mule that he's more like a horse or a donkey, but it's nevertheless a mule.
380. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 15, 1998 - 8:27 AM PT
Re: Message #377, marjoribanks.
The main problem I had with it was the "therapy" required a firm belief in God. At a time when my faith had waned due to the conflict to what Religion and my own body was telling me, I couldn't believe the stuff they preached.
I never went through the whole process. I went to an introductory meeting and pretty much deduced they were complete morons.
381. cllrdr - Dec. 15, 1998 - 8:32 AM PT
Marj -- I'm dealing with Huffingtongate over in "News of the Day."
382. marjoribanks - Dec. 15, 1998 - 8:33 AM PT
Even better Scotus.
However, I enjoin you to remember that 'Religion' is not what those nutcases were trying to shove down your throat. It was a bizarre perversion of "faith."
383. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 15, 1998 - 8:44 AM PT
Could be, marjori. I dunno.
I figure I have enough to deal with without adding mystical bullshit into the mix.
Maybe I'll get back to it some day.
384. LadyChaos - Dec. 15, 1998 - 8:53 AM PT
Scotus,
At first, I thought you were joking, but now I'm not so sure. Are you dealing with some issues that you would like to discuss?
I have to be out until evening, but I'd be glad to respond in any way that I can.
385. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 15, 1998 - 10:42 AM PT
Sadly enough, Lady, I'm not joking.
As for a on-line discussion, that's an different animal altogether.
386. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 10:48 AM PT
Come on, folks, don't act so surprised. I've been calling Lucky a closet case for two years!
My god, I amaze myself sometimes.
387. ScotusAntonovich - Dec. 15, 1998 - 10:49 AM PT
Yeah, yeah.
Bite me.
388. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 10:51 AM PT
No thanks.
389. Jenerator - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:07 AM PT
Message #375
" Obviously you were too busy acquiring A-levels in
Religion at Liberty University to ever take up philosophy.
Simple logic would tell you that if what the women's
magazines claimed about female sexual adventurism were
true, then their claims would hardly sell magazines. The
reason such claims (and their cooked statistics) are so
surprising is because they are almost entirely false. Most
wildly promiscuous women, and men, are generally
regarded by adult company as being risible, if not
pestilential."
I will tell you ( and resonance if he's listening), that I did not go to Liberty University.
" In my view and observation, the only real change in
sexual attitudes among civilized adults over recent
decades is that most people quite properly, and ethically,
distinguish between pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and
civilized (straight) individuals take no issue with
homosexuality per se or with transgenderism."
What do you mean by distinguish? Any person in the world knows how to distinguish between pre-marital and extra-marital sex!
(cont.)
390. Jenerator - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:09 AM PT
pt. 2
"Because
you're basically an uncivilized person, you choose to
separate yourself from enlightened, liberal thought on
both issues."
Of course I'm uncivilized, I'm American, and I don't read as many political publications as you, and haven't been to as many foreign countries as you, right? (Or at least that was what you said the LAST time you claimed I was "uncivilized".) Seriously Socko, you are *so* conceited. Also, post-Enlightenment thinking IS categorically liberal. So, if my being conservative makes me uncivilized, you are too narrow minded in your "superior" thinking. Or, if you were implying that only liberal thinking is enlightened (intelligent), than again, you are a narrow minded, judgmental fool.
391. bubbaette - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:15 AM PT
"Any person in the world knows how to distinguish between pre-marital and extra-marital sex!"
It's not as easy as all that these days. For example, when single I would have considered a man in a steady relationship as probably off-limits and a man co-habitating with another woman as "married". Different people may feel differently about these subjects and the variety of living arrangements doesn't make drawing lines any easier.
392. Jenerator - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:21 AM PT
bubbaette,
I agree with you that there are varying degrees of off limits, but "pre-marital" is pretty self explanatory.
393. philistine - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:30 AM PT
Psocko, first she figures you for Christian, and then liberal. Why don'[t you give her that Reagan link again, see if it sinks in this time.
394. mariagleason - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:37 AM PT
Good luck, Scotus. Don't doubt yourself.
395. Jenerator - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:40 AM PT
Phil,
What you seem to forget, and rather conveniently, is that Socko *told* me he was a Catholic. Perhaps he said it as some form of sarcasm. But I doubt it. You see, he thinks atheists can be Catholics and that Protestants are polytheists (pure idiocy!). So, he has managed to restate his religious pov "born Jewsish, but don't practice" which is fine. I don't care what he is or isn't!
"Why don'[t you give her that Reagan link again,
see if it sinks in this time."
My post Message #390 has nothing to do with political affiliations, you dope.
396. mariagleason - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:52 AM PT
Mr Socko wasn't talking about 'post-Enlightenment thinking,' either. Just a thought...
397. philistine - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:55 AM PT
"So, if my being conservative makes me uncivilized, you are too narrow minded in your "superior" thinking. Or, if you were implying that only liberal thinking is enlightened (intelligent), than again, you are a narrow minded, judgmental fool. "
There is no way you are going to convince me you aren't talking about politics in this post, Jen. That might make me close minded, or it might make me literate. I never once saw a post where Socko claims to be Roman Catholic - perhaps you mistook a lower case 'c' catholic for an upper case 'c' Catholic?
As for myself, I dount The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost as three, plus scads of saints and angels for the RC's. Not to mention the Devil and all his henchmen. Sounds pretty polytheistic to me.
But this ain't the thread for that.
398. CalGal - Dec. 15, 1998 - 11:55 AM PT
tP,
"Come on, folks, don't act so surprised. I've been calling Lucky a closet case for two years!"
Yes, you have.
What an excellent example to set, tP. Watch someone who is, quite clearly, struggling with their own sexuality and going through some pretty severe self-hatred. And then humiliate them.
Really a great way to add to the suicide ranks of young homosexuals. Be proud.
399. toonces - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:01 PM PT
Re: Message #365
All what stuff and nonsense about vaginal orgasms?
400. ChristinO - Dec. 15, 1998 - 12:02 PM PT
Scott,
Congratulations, guy and CHECK YOUR MAIL!!!