102. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 12:53 PM PT
Jones at law
Thanks, that was really nice.
103. jonesatlaw - Dec. 9, 1998 - 1:01 PM PT
Back to being male. I have two "guy secrets" to share with Marshame, re #3, Hell yes we're scared, but not doing "what a man's gotta do" is scarier, and we do cry, usually in movies (good thing their in the dark) but what we cry at is usually different. I can't watch Old Yeller, Brian's Song, Glory, or Breaker Moran without tearing up just a little.
104. marshame - Dec. 9, 1998 - 1:22 PM PT
Psuedo
Fortunately for you, I avoid snakes in the grass, as opposed to hunting and killing them.
Jonesatlaw
If you were a woman, I'd call you Jonesy and ask you to lunch so we could bitch about the judges.
105. marshame - Dec. 9, 1998 - 1:28 PM PT
Movie that makes a man cry: Saving Private Ryan (kill 100,000 young American men through no fault of their own.)
Movie that makes a woman cry: Steel Magnolias (that killer scene in the graveyard - sob - or when the baby cries cause his mama's in a coma - gasp. Or how 'bout in Terms of Endearment when she says goodbye to her little boys - weep! or when Shirley McClain no longer tries to impress Jack Nicholson cause she's too preoccupied with her daughter. Oh how about (boo hoo hoooo!) that dreadful scene in Born on the Fourth of July when Tom Cruise tries to drag himself around on crutches and falls anyway and breaks his legs and they put him in that awful machine to turn him ...
I'm sorry...
I can't type anymore...
the keyboard's too wet........
106. marshame - Dec. 9, 1998 - 1:32 PM PT
Anyone remember the movie "Broadcast News" where Holly Hunter is the TV exec? Everyday, usually in the morning before she started out, she would sit down, focus, and bring herself to cry for about 30 seconds. Then she would "buck up," wipe away the tears and go on with her day.
I can really relate to that! I would said that I cry just about everyday for a moment. It is very cathartic and refreshing. It is like an innoculation against the big stuff that can come along. I would never, ever, in a million years dream of shedding a tear at work (unless someone dies) so it's good to have an escape valve. Does any other female do the same?
Any comparable male pressure relief valve?
107. marshame - Dec. 9, 1998 - 1:36 PM PT
Kurt
Any guy who cannot do *any* of the things on my list had better make a ton of money, be fabulous in bed, and/or be a scintillating conversationalist. Preferably all three, but one could suffice.
So how rich ARE you?
108. msgreer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 1:51 PM PT
jonesatlaw... as usual, your honesty is a treasure.
If I were a man for a day, I would look at every woman,not just the young things with mini-skirts. I would be interested in *older* woman, 50's and want to take one to lunch. I would educate myself in realizing woman with abit of character on their face may just have alot to share with me.
I would look at woman and do my best to stop the stero-type of the skinny type being more important than a woman with a baroque figure.
I would do my best to learn abit about myself in the hopes I might learn about the comforts of nuturing.. about the freedom that comes with sharing my worst fears with the woman I loved, to spend time with my children and go to their schools when theysing in the choir.
I would wonder how important that BMW with the cell phone is..
And I would watch my wife/significant other make dinner, do the wash, bathe the kids, clean the kitchen and hope I saw how much more time I could spend with her if we did some of these things together.
And I would ask my wife/significant other out for a date. I would talk to her and if we were in a restaurant I would look at her and listen not needing to watch all others who go by our table.
109. marshame - Dec. 9, 1998 - 2:24 PM PT
MsGreer
You sound like you would be a woman in a man's body.
Oops, that would be Lady Chaos!
110. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 9, 1998 - 2:30 PM PT
marshame:
Let's just say I eat well. And, yes, I came very close to tears at "Saving Private Ryan", but only because it was really awful and I was hungry and wanted to leave.
111. msgreer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 2:39 PM PT
marshame..i don't think so.. it was just difficult to think like a man. i was just thinking of alot of things men miss when they don't look at the world this way...
112. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 2:43 PM PT
It's surprisingly difficult to imagine myself as a man. I can't conceptually separate my 'self' from my gender.
113. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 2:57 PM PT
Working within mostly-male teams has made me aware of how viscously competitive men usually are among themselves. Guys really want to hurt each other when they compete and are not very sympathetic with losers. Being slammed so hard all of the time would take some getting used to.
Women can be bitchy, and are as jealous of one another's strengths as men are I think, but in general women are more supportive of eachother's weaknesses.
114. marshame - Dec. 9, 1998 - 3:01 PM PT
toonces
you may have trouble thinking like a man, but have you ever thought of yourself as, say.... a cat?
115. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 3:09 PM PT
marshame, you're right. Now that you mention it, I do kind of feel an urge to rip fabrics.
116. msgreer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 4:08 PM PT
marshame...please explain yourself..
117. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 4:44 PM PT
Why stop at simply calling a man a 'dog' or a 'pig' or a 'snake?'
They all exhibit some characteristics of some familiar animal from time to time. Most of them act or look like more than one animal, so you can make up a hybird.
I've wondered if a group of interracting personalities fall into niches similar to the ecological niches animals fill. Comparing people to animals can be a gratifying passtime, good for long, boring meetings. When you have choosen animal characters for everyone in a meeting, it's fun to watch them acting out their roles like talking animals in a cartoon.
118. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 9, 1998 - 4:49 PM PT
toonces:
Are you bombo/Azure?
119. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 4:59 PM PT
KurtMondaugen -
No, I'm pink. I seem to be some kind of biological trash in a pink plastic wrapper.
What color are you?
120. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 9, 1998 - 5:20 PM PT
Wan.
121. ycmeehan - Dec. 9, 1998 - 5:31 PM PT
LadyChaos,
I do agree with you that some powerful women are very feminine and very sexy. However, I do not accept that these women are as such, consciously so. These women are feminine and sexy because that is the way they are. Feminity and sexiness are not attributes that a woman puts on.
In other words, my point is that most women today who have problem being feminine lack the very qualities that this term implies.
I am French-born and raised and that fact naturally may color my thinking on this matter.
122. ChristinO - Dec. 9, 1998 - 6:18 PM PT
Yc,
In other words femininity is looked down upon by women with a "sour grapes" attitude? I don't have it so it's not worth having anyway?
123. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 6:20 PM PT
Toonces
I agree that men are quite competitive compared with women. I know that I'll get my back up and determine *not* to back down if and only if the issue is important to me and I'm sure I'm right. And I *usually* don't keep score.
I think that society often allows men only anger as their outlet and never just sadness. The loss of control is hard to take as it is, and for god's sake don't let anybody see it.
124. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 6:38 PM PT
Remember when Pat Schroder dropped out of the presidential race and cried on television? Though I hadn't been a supporter, I felt humiliated, but at the same time I know that I would have done the same thing.
125. LadyChaos - Dec. 9, 1998 - 6:44 PM PT
I can relate to the story about having to take a short cry every day. It really helps me, for reasons I have yet to understand. If I go too many days trying to be a "guy" and suck it in, I tend to have an emotional crash, sooner or later, in which I become completely useless for a time.
126. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 6:57 PM PT
One time I remember as definitive of my reaction to "fight or flight" happened when I was grinding feed with my dad. I've often thought that my dad was interested in farming only as an excuse to work on busted-down heavy machinery. Most everything seemed makeshift and held together with wire.
Dad was augering some feed from the grinder into the feed bin. An auger is like a large turnscrew that carries feed up through a pipe. Part of the pipe (galvinized aluminum) was worn and some feed was spitting out as the auger turned past that point. Dad tried to bend the worn part of the metal pipe down to block the leak and ended up pushing his thumb down into the auger which turned by to snip the end of his thumb off.
I ran away. I got about 10 feet away and thought "now what the hell does this accomplish" and went back. But I've always kind of wondered what that immediate response meant about me.
127. thomasd - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:02 PM PT
Re. 126 -
It was your self-preservation instinct kicking in.
128. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:07 PM PT
Which makes war totally incomprehensible to me.
129. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:11 PM PT
Well, I haven't often wondered what it would be like to be a woman, simply because it is so fundamentally difficult. So much about our gender conceptions are introduced and reified so often that some things are simply inconceivable to me.
Anyway, I once came across a book titled something like *If I had a dick for a day.* It was interesting, reading what some fairly renowned feminists think are the defining things to do with male anatomy. Things like "every morning I would role over and poke my husband in the back..."
If I had a vagina for a day, I would probably feel lost and worthless; women aren't "supposed" to like to do the things that I enjoy. I wouldn't know how to act without the "privilege" of being male. Basically, I would either internalize a lot of the social stereotypes given by resonance up above, or I would become a Mary Daly-type lesbian.
Philosophers have historically only dealt with what it means to be masculine. Hobbes, and his state of nature, is the best example; he defines nature as an atomistic competition for self advancement. There are no mothers, no wives, no families, and no children. Femininity is merely the negation of masculinity; hence the historical associations of masculine with rational, feminine with emotional, masculine with competitive, feminine with cooperative. As long as masculine is defined as good and feminine defined as its opposite, I could never deal with being feminine.
130. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:11 PM PT
Back during my undergraduate days in a class on military politics we read a monograph on America's nuclear strategy in case of a sustained nuclear attack. As I recall, with the use of submarines, the U.S. was supposed to be able to launch retaliatory strikes against the soviets for up to two weeks.
Who would have the heart to continue launching nuclear attacks after seeing two weeks worth of annihilation? What would it matter?
I think this is another fundamental difference between men and women.
131. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:13 PM PT
Oh, Meyer, you're such a fucking ninny.
132. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:14 PM PT
You know, I've always said Camille Paglia is an idiot, but at least she's useful as corrective to the kind of petit bourgeois self-indulgences like Meyer's Message #129.
133. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:16 PM PT
"....women aren't 'supposed' to like to do the things that I enjoy."
Well, maybe not in Saudi Arabia.
"As long as masculine is defined as good and feminine defined as its opposite..."
And where are they so defined?
134. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:18 PM PT
In the story of Adam and Eve, for one instance.
135. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:18 PM PT
If I were a man, I could pee standing up.
That would be cool.
136. thomasd - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:20 PM PT
Re. 135 -
toonces -
I've seen you on TV, and I was wondering how you handled a four-on-the -floor.
137. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:21 PM PT
Message #134
I'm talking about today, in modern culture.
Message #135
Well, in the movie "The Full Monty", a woman pissed standing up, with more flair and verve than a man.
138. thomasd - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:24 PM PT
Family lore (male side only) recounts how a French whore took on and beat male comers in a distance pissing contest during WWI.
It must have been great advertising.
139. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:25 PM PT
Sampson and Delila
John Lennon and Yoko Ono
140. bubbaette - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:26 PM PT
Tom D. Think about using a garden hose -- what happens if you use one finger to control the outlet? Aim isn't great, but you can go for distance.
141. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:27 PM PT
Once on a long cross-country ski trip with a college boyfriend, I had time to contemplate how fortunate men are in some ways. When he needed to pee, he just shuffled off the trial and did so. When I needed to pee, it was an entirely different kind of operation. I knew the guy pretty well, but still I felt incredibly stupid squatting half naked in front of him trying not to pee on my skis or fall on my butt in the snow.
142. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:30 PM PT
/*
Well, in the movie "The Full Monty", a woman pissed standing up, with more flair and verve than a man.
*/
I saw that, but I absolutely don't believe it was real. Not a chance.
143. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:35 PM PT
Well, the trajectory of the woman's urine stream in "The Fully Monty" did have a suspiciously male arc, but I don't see why in principle what she did in the movie isn't possible in real life. After all, given the position of the urinary tract, the right posture should at least approximate the desired result. I will talk to my girlfriend about empiricism and its great benefits...
144. Slackjaw - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:37 PM PT
"Who would have the heart to continue launching nuclear attacks after seeing two weeks worth of annihilation? What would it matter?"
The point is, as I see it, not a masculine instinct for revenge or anything like that. Rather, by committing beforehand to take that route should the nuclear conflict ever arise, you alter the likelihood of anyone starting a nuclear conflict.
(Of course, if it ever gets started by accident, you've installed a doomsday device and you're in trouble. Think someone wrote a book about that or something. Of course, the probability of an accident is itself endogenous.)
145. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:40 PM PT
Re: Message #143
"the right posture" would probably be hilarious.
146. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:41 PM PT
Maybe hanging upside down?
147. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 7:48 PM PT
PE:
Message #132 “petit bourgeois self-indulgences”
“Hello pot, this is the kettle calling…”
Message #133
So there are no “masculine” traits or “feminine” traits? Throughout history, certain occupations and certain social positions have been characteristically “feminine” or “masculine.” Only an economist could deny this.
Masculine is defined; feminine is not. Western philosophy, my friend, has always excluded the viewpoints and experiences of women. Actually, I believe it was you who once said in the philosophy thread that no woman had ever written anything worth reading. Why do you think that is? Are women incapable of rational thought? Or is that simply not their position, writing about all that complex, multi-syllabic stuff? The dichotomous conception of gender defines feminine as the opposite of masculine.
148. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:03 PM PT
Meyer (Message #147)
"So there are no 'masculine' traits or “feminine” traits?"
I said no such thing.
"Throughout history, certain occupations and certain social positions have been characteristically 'feminine' or 'masculine.' Only an economist could deny this."
I didn't deny it, you idiot.
What the hell does the rest of your message have to do with anything I said.
I ask again: Where are women not supposed to like to do the things men enjoy? And how is "masculine is defined as good and feminine defined as its opposite"? And I'm talking about TODAY, and not about philosophy or history. Get with it. Your claims are hallucinations.
"I believe it was you who once said in the philosophy thread that no woman had ever written anything worth reading."
Well, this is certainly true in philosophy before the 20th century.
"Why do you think that is?"
Because they didn't.
"Are women incapable of rational thought?"
No, women had few if any opportunities to become philosophers.
149. LadyChaos - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:05 PM PT
Here's a link to an entry in a transsexual diary that I find absolutely fascinating, mainly because I empathize with it so greatly. I also recently came to understand that my real problem is that I have always, desperately wanted to be a male, to fit in with the other guys, just so I could feel normal.
And to do so I have developed this male persona that is, unfortunately, a lot of bravado, cowboy boots, cigar smoking, gun-toting, and getting piss-drunk in the dirtiest neighborhood pub after a football match; in other words, my male persona feels more like "drag" to me than my natural persona which, while not ultra-feminine, is definitely closer to that of what I consider to be that of a typical female. This is an important part of the crux of my dilemna. When people implore me to "just be like other guys," it's hard for me to explain the heartache I have gone through in my life just trying to get a grip on what the hell that means. In fact, I feel that I "fit in" much better as a female than as a guy, even when those around me know that I am transgendered!
150. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:05 PM PT
/*
Actually, I believe it was you who once said in the philosophy thread that no woman had ever written anything worth reading. Why do you think that is?
*/
I think this is a result of men's intense competitiveness. Women usually don't tolerate the kind of hostility men routinely show eachother in staking their claims. And most men don't expect to face the competitiveness required to win those kinds of arguments in a woman and will react quite violently to it, as if to a smaller, weaker man.
151. toonces - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:07 PM PT
In other words, he will verbally beat her up and claim her best ideas as his own.
152. LadyChaos - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:08 PM PT
Yikes! Grammar alert:
"definitely closer to that of what I consider to be that of a typical female." should read "definitely closer to what I consider to be that of a typical female."
153. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:43 PM PT
O.K., PE:
IN Message #148 You ask, for the first time:
"Where are women not supposed to like to do the things men enjoy?"
How about: In elementary school, pre-school, day-care, high school, college, home, work, play...
You are ridiculous. You agree that masculine and feminine personae often have different social roles, yet you deny that feminine people aren't supposed to like to do the same things as masculine people? Is it considered "feminine" to play basketball? To read ridiculous non-fiction books tills your eye-lids crack? To play drunk table tennis all night?
Despite recent challenges to rigid gender dichotomies, they certainly still exist. All of our sciences (and accordingly, most of our knowledge), especially economics, by the way, are based on traditionally masculine perspectives of the world; rationality, competition, strength, even the measurement of industrial output in terms of "useable" products, for christ's sake, are privileged.
It is interesting that you don't recognize the relationships between Western philosophy, modern social roles, and modern social sciences. The exclusion of women's experiences from the foundational tracts of modern society is still felt everyday.
Name some "good" traits, pseudo, and we can discuss why and how they became associated with "good."
154. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:56 PM PT
Meyer (Message #153)
"You are ridiculous. You agree that masculine and feminine personae often have different social roles, yet you deny that feminine people aren't supposed to like to do the same things as masculine people?"
Like a good propagandist, you subtly shift ground. I agreed that there are indeed "masculine traits" and "feminine traits". I said nothing about "roles".
"Is it considered 'feminine' to play basketball?"
No, this society doesn't particularly consider it as such, but women are hardly tarred, feathered and driven from town for playing basketball. Isn't women's basketball an Olympic sport?
"To read ridiculous non-fiction books tills your eye-lids crack? To play drunk table tennis all night?"
I don't know what these things mean.
"All of our sciences (and accordingly, most of our knowledge), especially economics, by the way, are based on traditionally masculine perspectives of the world; rationality, competition, strength, even the measurement of industrial output in terms of 'useable' products, for christ's sake, are privileged."
Economics is not based on "competition", let alone "strength", and industrial output is not measured only in terms of "useable products". I don't know where the hell you get your ideas from. As for rationality, yes, that is traditionally "masculine". So what? I don't think anyone considers rationality as a masculine trait anymore.
How are other sciences "based on traditionally masculine perspectives of the world"?
"It is interesting that you don't recognize the relationships between Western philosophy, modern social roles, and modern social sciences."
Don't aggrandise your hallucinations. I'm sure there are such relationships I would agree on. You just haven't named any.
155. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:58 PM PT
Rationality is a foundation of economics because it makes models mathematically tractable, not because there is some "privileging" of traditionally masculine traits. If irrationality were as tractable and modellable, theorists would have no problem modelling irrationality.
156. BobaFett - Dec. 9, 1998 - 8:58 PM PT
My rule: Whenever someone starts talking about "personae," it's time to get out of the conversation.
157. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:00 PM PT
"Where are women not supposed to like to do the things men enjoy?"
"How about: In elementary school, pre-school, day-care, high school, college, home, work, play..."
Can you be more specific?
158. Slackjaw - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:29 PM PT
Message #155 is absolutely right. There is only one way to maximize a function; there are many ways not to be maximizing it.
Incidentally, the biggest push going in the theory of choice these days is modeling bounded rationality.
Not that this will bring economics a more feminine perspective or anything, as that would seem to say womyn are more boundedly rational than men.
159. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:43 PM PT
"I ask again: Where are women not supposed to like to do the things men enjoy?"
Every single lower middle-class municipality in the US?
160. CoralReef - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:46 PM PT
Yes, but who is looked at more funny, a woman who bowls or a man who crochets?
161. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:48 PM PT
Toonces:
"Women usually don't tolerate the kind of hostility men routinely show each other in staking their claims. And most men don't expect to face the competitiveness required to win those kinds of arguments in a woman and will react quite violently to it, as if to a smaller, weaker man.
"In other words, he will verbally beat her up and claim her best ideas as his own."
Well, not the men who are momentarily confused or aroused by her. Otherwise, these remarks are spectacularly accurate.
162. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:52 PM PT
“Like a good propagandist, you subtly shift ground. I agreed that there are indeed ‘masculine traits' and ‘feminine traits.' I said nothing about ‘roles'.”
I am apparently lost in the semantics. What are “traits” without “roles?” Additionally, if you would be so kind, can you please list the feminine “traits” which you believe to exist?
On basketball, books and table tennis: These are activities that I enjoy; each has a relatively masculine association, which I would feel less appropriate in playing were I a woman.
I never said economics in particular is based on these ideas, though in many cases it is; I was talking about social sciences in general. Many of my ideas come from discourse on foreign policy. I had always been under the impression that any science that lauds the free market, for instance, would reify the concepts of competition and strength.
“How are other sciences ‘based on traditionally masculine perspectives of the world'?”
I could go into this for hours. Would you like for me to begin with IR theory?
Well, just so you know, it's “aggrandize,” and “modeling.”
Re: Message #157
From day one, females and males are taught to participate in different social activities. Males are often directed into more competitive activities, such as tag, kickball, dodgeball, or whatever. Women are often directed into much more cooperative activities, i.e. “house” or jump rope (where there is usually no clear winner or loser). Some believe that this has to do with the relationship between mother and child; females are encouraged to relate with a typically more involved mother, while males are encouraged to relate to a typically distant father. Whatever; you get the picture. If you disagree or would like for me to elaborate more, it will have to be some other day.
163. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:55 PM PT
"Well, in the movie "The Full Monty", a woman pissed standing up, with
more flair and verve than a man."
I have a friend who used to practice this. Some of one's success must have to do with the peculiarities of individual anatomy.
164. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 9:59 PM PT
"Yes, but who is looked at more funny, a woman who bowls or a man who
crochets?"
I wouldn't even have a conversation with a man I knew to be a crocheter.
Of course, I also try to avoid women who crochet.
165. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:08 PM PT
davidmeyer (Message #162)
"What are 'traits' without 'roles?' Additionally, if you would be so kind, can you please list the feminine 'traits' which you believe to exist?"
Women, for example, are generally considered by most people to be less ready to have sex with strangers than men. That's a trait -- relative sexual reticence. I don't see a "role" in this at all.
"On basketball, books and table tennis: These are activities that I enjoy; each has a relatively masculine association, which I would feel less appropriate in playing were I a woman."
Perhaps it's a failure of imagination, or just more petit bourgeois self-indulgence.
"I never said economics in particular is based on these ideas, though in many cases it is..."
You really don't know what you're talking about.
"I had always been under the impression that any science that lauds the free market, for instance, would reify the concepts of competition and strength."
Economic analysis doesn't "laud" anything. It is as valid under socialism as under capitalism.
"Would you like for me to begin with IR theory?"
Sure, whatever, though I think it would be far more interesting if you commented on biology or physics.
"Well, just so you know, it's 'aggrandize', and 'modeling'."
Ha! The paradox of the post-modernist prescriptivist. The way I learnt it, it's "aggrandise" and "modelling".
"From day one, females and males are taught to participate in different social activities..."
Yes? What about it?
166. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:26 PM PT
"Is it considered 'feminine'....To read ridiculous non-fiction books tills your eye-lids crack? To play drunk table tennis all night?"
This is really quite pathetic. In my experience, women tend to read more fiction than non-fiction, but I know plenty of women who primarily read non-fiction (especially if they are in an academic environment). Yet neither I nor anyone I know consider them the less feminine for their non-fiction readings. And the idea that a woman who plays table-tennis drunk is the less feminine for it seems equally silly. Apparently, you have been so conditioned by the post-modernist garbage you like to read that your thoughts have been rearranged to suit the theories. To wit, your touching confession that you would feel inappropriate playing drunken table tennis if you were a woman.
167. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:28 PM PT
""On basketball, books and table tennis: These are activities that I
enjoy; each has a relatively masculine association, which I would feel
less appropriate in playing were I a woman."
I've never in my life felt "inappropriate" while playing ping-pong. Or reading.
Other people may conclude, with reason, that it is inappropriate for me to play basketball.
168. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:30 PM PT
"Women, for example, are generally considered by most people to be less ready to have sex with strangers than men. That's a trait -- relative sexual reticence. I don't see a "role" in this at all."
Hmmmm...Failure of the imagination? Why do you think women have "relative sexual reticence?" I realize that you like to avoid questions involving "why."
Economics involves more than economic analysis, as I am sure you know. Do you deny the existence of prescriptive economics? Even economic analysis involves gendered decisions about what to consider economic activity, for instance.
My grammatical prescriptivism certainly isn't hypocritical contextually; I was merely attempting to help you in your efforts to correct people's grammar in the future. It's clear that it brings you great pleasure.
The fact that males and females are taught from day one to participate in different social activities both creates and reflects the existence of activities which are "feminine" and "masculine." If you recall, the original discussion concerned the way I would feel participating in some of my favorite activites if I were a female.
169. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:35 PM PT
I would like to repeat that Message #129 is the bloviations of a ninny.
170. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:36 PM PT
The likes of Meyer can blither about how women aren't "supposed" to do this or to like that, but these claims, as phrased, are largely unverifiable. They can say whatever the hell they want.
171. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:42 PM PT
Actually, last night I was in a bar with five other male friends. We stayed up all night drinking and playing foos-ball, which I suck at, and table tennis, which I am pretty good at. We were talking a lot of trash, bad-mouthing each other, and generally being pretty hostile; I have only been of legal drinking age (21) for two months now. It was a situation that I would have felt much less confortable in were I a woman.
Admittedly, I know many women who read much more non-fiction than I do. My significant other, for example. However, if you heard that two people of different sexes were reading, one a romance novel and one a legal treatise, how would you guess?
172. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:45 PM PT
davidmeyer (Message #168)
"Why do you think women have 'relative sexual reticence?'"
Why do I think it? Because it seems consistent with everyday observation. Why, IMO, do women exhibit relative sexual reticence? Because a woman can only give birth so many times in her life.
"I realize that you like to avoid questions involving 'why'."
I don't know why you say that. I've discussed so many "why" issues in the Fray.
"Do you deny the existence of prescriptive economics?"
No, I don't. Prescriptive economics exists only when you introduce questions of value. It asks, for a given desired outcome (e.g., lower pollution) and given the constraints, what is the optimal policy?
"Even economic analysis involves gendered decisions about what to consider economic activity, for instance."
No, it doesn't. For example, economic analysis considers a wife's household labour to be genuine economic activity. There are many suggestions today to adjust GDP figures of the past by subtracting the value of household activity lost when women began entering the workforce. Alas, we don't know how to value it in dollars.
"The fact that males and females are taught from day one to participate in different social activities both creates and reflects the existence of activities which are 'feminine' and 'masculine'."
No, this does not follow. First of all, you assume that these things are "taught" (though I think they are). Second, the very fact that despite early "teaching", men do engage in cooperative activities and women in competitive activities make your categories pretty useless.
173. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:48 PM PT
PE: You wouldn't be nearly as persuasive without that endearing personality...
Face it: Somethings can't be verified except through historical interpretation.
174. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:49 PM PT
"However, if you heard that two people of different sexes were reading, one a romance novel and one a legal treatise, how would you guess?"
I would guess that the woman was reading the romance novel. But only because this is a statistically appropriate guess. Had the two books been "The Great Gatsby" and "Torts", I couldn't guess which sex was reading which book.
175. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:51 PM PT
Davidmeyer. What, exactly, the fuck are you talking about?
176. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 10:56 PM PT
resonance: Even you should find Message #129 rather ninnified.
177. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:06 PM PT
ME: "Why do you think women have 'relative sexual reticence?'"
You: Because a woman can only give birth so many times in her life.
Your answer is meaningless; reproductive potential doesn't explain "relative sexual reticence" in an era of effective and cheap birth control.
Prescriptive economics determines the "optimal policy" for achieving a pre-established end. What differentiates an "optimal policy" from a "sub-optimal policy?"
Me: "Even economic analysis involves gendered decisions about what to consider economic activity, for instance."
You: No, it doesn't. For example, economic analysis considers a wife's household labour to be genuine economic activity. There are many suggestions today to adjust GDP figures of the past by subtracting the value of household activity lost when women began entering the workforce. Alas, we don't know how to value it in dollars.
Exactly. The call for these adjustments reflects a growing recognition of the gender bias in traditional economics. The failure to include child-rearing, subsistence farming, cooking, etc. in the GDP has long been cited as evidence of a gender bias in econ. The fact that it is now attempting to address these concerns doesn't fiat them out of existence. Further, simply adding private productive output to modern economics won't change much, since the entire system is based on a model which assumes exchange (as you clearly deomnstrate with your notice of the difficulty in valuing these services in dollar terms).
178. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:07 PM PT
You: No, this does not follow. First of all, you assume that these things are "taught" (though I think they are). Second, the very fact that despite early "teaching", men do engage in cooperative activities and women in competitive activities make your categories pretty useless.
My assumption is based on your agreement in Message #165. So does the fact that people occasionally act irrationally make rationality useless as a concept?
179. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:08 PM PT
"Actually, last night I was in a bar with five other male friends. We
stayed up all night drinking and playing foos-ball, which I suck at, and table tennis, which I am pretty good at. We were talking a lot of trash, bad-mouthing each other, and generally being pretty hostile; I have only been of legal drinking age (21) for two months now. It was a situation that I would have felt much less confortable in were I a woman."
Young man: I am an individual of the female persuasion. As one who has spent COUNTLESS happy nights swilling alcohol, trading voluble hostilities, playing billiards, ping pong, chess, and other unmentionables, not to mention skirting a variety of dangers illegal and unwise in the company of my beloved and reckless male acquaintances, I must point out that you are full of more shit than a Pennsylvania mushroom factory.
Remind me to thank Pseudoerasmus for calling attention to your bloviations, ninny.
180. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:16 PM PT
davidmeyer (Message #177)
"Your answer is meaningless; reproductive potential doesn't explain 'relative sexual reticence' in an era of effective and cheap birth control."
Of course it does. Our minds were adapted to an environment without "cheap and effective birth control".
"What differentiates an 'optimal policy' from a 'sub-optimal policy'?"
An optimal policy is one where desires or goals are maxmised subject to constraints. For example, society can desire the largest amount of GDP growth with a subjectively determined "just income distribution".
"The call for these adjustments reflects a growing recognition of the gender bias in traditional economics. The failure to include child-rearing, subsistence farming, cooking, etc. in the GDP has long been cited as evidence of a gender bias in econ."
Nonsense. The call was made years ago -- in the 19th century -- before anyone ever talked about "gender bias" in economics. The call is reasonable not because there is an intrinsic gender bias in economics, but because undercounting household activity overstates GDP growth and thus improvements in welfare. If entry of women into the labour force is adding 1% a year to GDP growth, it is of some moment to know how much growth is actually being lost by the commensurate loss in household activity.
"Further, simply adding private productive output to modern economics won't change much, since the entire system is based on a model which assumes exchange (as you clearly deomnstrate with your notice of the difficulty in valuing these services in dollar terms)."
Huh?
181. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:17 PM PT
Seguine: Simply because you don't act stereotypically feminine doesn't mean that those social norms don't exist. The level of discourse here is astounding.
182. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:18 PM PT
Message #179
And I find Seguine excitingly feminine, to boot!
183. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:20 PM PT
davidmeyer (Message #181)
"Simply because you don't act stereotypically feminine doesn't mean that those social norms don't exist."
But you see, you can't measure these social norms, so you can only insist they exist, and that insistence loses potency with every counterexample someone Seguine mentions.
184. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:24 PM PT
"So does the fact that people occasionally act irrationally make rationality useless as a concept?"
No, of course not, but it's a silly analogy. You keep saying that men are "supposed" or expected to act in certain ways and women in other ways. What are you saying about these suppositions and expectations? What is your point?
185. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:25 PM PT
(throwing up hands)
I don't even have the time for this.
Meyer, they aren't norms, anymore. They haven't been for a while. I defy you to poll any reasonable distribution of women and men and see if they agree with you. I think you need to ask yourself why you need to believe in such things.
What PE is mentioning is evolutionary psychology. I think there's something to that as a means of explaining the differences between genders. But I think that this monolithic, lock-step sexual role thing you're implying is silly. It went out with June Cleaver.
186. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:27 PM PT
Resonance to Meyer: "I think you need to ask yourself why you need to believe in such things."
See Message #166, as well as the Great Ninny post of Message #129. It's a kind of cognitive tautology. Meyer can't imagine being in a woman's shoes because if he could his theories would be invalidated.
187. Slackjaw - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:30 PM PT
"I think you need to ask yourself why you need to believe in such things."
I believe he once said he lives in the bluegrass state.
188. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:40 PM PT
I don't think anyone here would bother denying that there are elements within our culture which *tend* to influence men and women differently. I don't think that anyone here would insist that men and women are sometimes conditioned differently by society. I doubt any of us would even say that this pattern was more marked in the past, and is more marked in different parts of the world.
It's pretty stupid to assert that these 'sometimes' and 'tendencies' translate out into rigid, endemic, inescapable social roles.
189. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:41 PM PT
Anyways, this isn't real postmodernist thinking, anyway, PE. It's just a misapprehension of it.
190. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:44 PM PT
" I don't think that anyone here would insist that
men and women are sometimes conditioned
differently by society. I doubt any of us would
even say that this pattern was more marked in
the past, and is more marked in different parts
of the world. "
Gah. I'm tired. Those last two should read as follows -- 'I doubt that any of us would deny either that men and women are sometimes partially conditioned differently or that this tendency was more marked in the past or is more noticeable in other parts of the world.
191. davidmeyer - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:47 PM PT
PE SAYS: "But you see, you can't measure these social norms, so you can only insist they exist, and that insistence loses potency with every counterexample someone Seguine mentions."
Actually, my interpretive community hardly qualifies me to testify to their existence. Personal narratives are the primary evidence for the existence of said norms, and are the only evidence which considers the standpoint of the disadvantaged. Why do people feel pressured to act a certain way? If you claim evolutionary psychology as an alternative to tabula rasa social construction, then why don't you simply say so?
My point: The recognition of the existence of specific social norms and their contribution to existing power arrangements allows discourse to develop which challenges them. Claims of "naturalness," transparency, or neutrality, which typify modern liberal societies, mask the norms which reinforce power and resource inequity.
Seguine: How many other women participated in yor drunken revelry?
Resonance: Polls hardly say shit. The nature of the problem is that modern society creates the illusion of propriety; everything is justified upon itself. Obviously, superficially polling the public is hardly going to reveal anything.
Is racism gone now that we have had the civil rights movement? Do the spice girls prove that sexism is eliminated? Society changes, but women, minorities, and people at the intersections always seem to remain at the bottom of the power hierarchy. Why is this? There are lots of explanations, ranging from the Bell Curve to postmodern crits; I happen to be sympathetic to the latter.
I have a cursory understanding of evolutionary psychology, and am a bit skeptical towards it because it just happens to privilege those who are responsible for its production.
192. Seguine - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:50 PM PT
"Simply because you don't act stereotypically feminine doesn't mean that those social norms don't exist."
Hell, *no one* has said they don't. (And in many respects I AM stereotypically feminine.) But I'm hardly the only woman who violates stereotype, in myriad ways, on a routine basis.
For you to generalize about what it would be like to be "a woman" behaving as you ordinarily behave is to participate in precisely what you would like us to believe you object to: *you* assume your habits are uniquely masculine. *You* perpetuate the stereotype.
Anyway, the truth of the matter is closer to what CoralReef pointed out: men in some equally trivial respects are more constrained by sexual stereotype than women.
E.g., if I decide I enjoy dressing in large plaid shirts, I am allowed to do so. If I decide to leave my home for the evening attired only in pearl earrings; 3-inch pumps; a black jacket with a neckline plunging to my navel, fastened precariously at the waist with a single button; and a short, tight skirt; I can assure you that nobody of any importance whatsoever will object.
You, however, may only wear the plaid shirt without risking rather more than a disapproving aversion of eyes from the old Catholic biddy across the street.
193. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:58 PM PT
"Resonance: Polls hardly say shit. The nature of
the problem is that modern society creates the
illusion of propriety; everything is justified
upon itself. Obviously, superficially polling the
public is hardly going to reveal anything. "
Really. If you're right about 'propriety' and about gender roles then why wouldn't the polls support your findings? After all, if gender roles were the norm and everyone is taqught to accept them as being justified, then why wouldn't they acknowledge having them?
"Is racism gone now that we have had the civil
rights movement? Do the spice girls prove that
sexism is eliminated? Society changes, but
women, minorities, and people at the
intersections always seem to remain at the
bottom of the power hierarchy. Why is this?"
Your words here are irrelevant. They might give us reason to believe that there are tendencies within our culture for women and men to be conditioned differently. They would not, however, give us any reason whatsoever to assume that these different conditioned roles are the norm. Any more than we would assume that extant racism in our culture would imply that Jim Crowe laws are still in effect.
194. resonance - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:58 PM PT
"There are lots of explanations, ranging from the
Bell Curve to postmodern crits; I happen to be
sympathetic to the latter. "
I enjoy some postmodern criticism, but I really think you've mishandled it if you can infer from it that we're all slaves to our social roles. Or else you've latched onto an extremist.
"I have a cursory understanding of evolutionary
psychology, and am a bit skeptical towards it
because it just happens to privilege those who
are responsible for its production."
??
How?
195. Slackjaw - Dec. 9, 1998 - 11:59 PM PT
but don't you see, Seguine? That's okay for you to do because the prevailing hegemony encourages you to subject yourself for the benefit of the hegemons. Meyer can't do such a thing, because as one with the prospect of being enshrined as a hegemon himself, he must help maintain the collusive control of the power structure.
196. resonance - Dec. 10, 1998 - 12:21 AM PT
"The recognition of the existence of
specific social norms and their contribution to
existing power arrangements allows discourse
to develop which challenges them. Claims of
"naturalness," transparency, or neutrality, which
typify modern liberal societies, mask the norms
which reinforce power and resource inequity. "
By all means, challenge the 'rightness' of our thinking whenever possible. None of that implies that we should believe that gender inequity is a result of these lock-step social roles, however. None of it implies that women and minorities believe that they belong on the bottom of the barrel. You are starting with the premise that these roles are an unconscious norm, instead of a flavor. If I start with the premise that all women are taught, say, to achieve indirect control over power and money via deception and faked orgasms, that will probably lead me to some equally compelling, yet equally unfounded, theory.
I have no problem with challenging old-fashioned social roles, Meyer, but I sincerely doubt that they're such a dominant force in our society as you would like to argue. Hell, anyone who could argue that they'd feel uncomfortable as a woman because they shouldn't like to do the things that they like to do really doesn't have a clue as to what they're talking about.
197. resonance - Dec. 10, 1998 - 12:24 AM PT
I am told that Seguine is a woman and she apparently likes doing some of the things you say she shouldn't like to because she's a woman who's been conditioned against drinking and hostility. Is this really the first non-Stepford woman you've ever encountered? And if not why would you ever feel possessed to argue that you couldn't feel comfortable as a woman because you'd be obliged to act otherwise?
Part of the reason many otherwise intelligent types have such a vicious knee-jerk reaction against postmodernism is that people take reasonable ideas and quickly inflate them to a ridiculous degree. Such as, to pull a random example out of thin air, someone seizing upon some differences in gender traits and teachings and then insisting that they were indicative of some vast, immanentized, hidden norm that controlled how people acted and thought.
198. davidmeyer - Dec. 10, 1998 - 12:30 AM PT
I obviously do not believe that people are "slaves" to social roles. Where have I said, or even implied, that?
You people are really beating the shit out of a scarecrow.
Social roles exist, they influence people, and they typically protect the interests of the groups with the power to produce them. Whether these roles are a substantial force, as I maintain, or are secondary, as some of you appear to maintain, in creating and reinforcing power relations in society is where I see the disagreement.
That said, I would feel uncomfortable as a woman because it would be more difficult to function when "success" requires overcoming substantial social obstacles.
PS. I am from the state of blue grass, but that hardly explains my political views. It does explain how tired I am though.
199. resonance - Dec. 10, 1998 - 12:44 AM PT
"I obviously do not believe that people are
"slaves" to social roles. Where have I said, or
even implied, that?
You people are really beating the shit out of a
scarecrow. "
No, we need no strawmen here. Strawpersons? Anyway. Take a look at where you insist that you would feel a lot less comfortable drinking and swearing at a bar if you were a woman. Not 'might' feel less comfortable, but would. Take a look at where you insist that if you were a woman you'd feel useless or something because you weren't supposed to like what you liked. These and other examples demonstrate your insistence that social roles would dominate your thinking and actions. And they illustrate your obvious belief that, were you a woman, you'd be in thrall to your social conditioning. You don't offer any middle ground. It's plain that your thoughts are absolutist in this manner.
200. Seguine - Dec. 10, 1998 - 12:46 AM PT
Slackjaw, Message #195
It hurts trying not to wake up the household with convulsive laughter. You have victimized me with your privileged genius for satire. I demand that you give up your privilege so that I will no longer be at a disadvantage relative to your power over me. Because if you continue to use your power privilege to force me to screech delightedly, your discourse with me will be equivalent to rape.