1002. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:21 AM PT
FTC:
"I don't recall ever telling anyone my sex, and why would you be sure you knew if I told you?"
Well, you *did* tell everyone your sex when you posted a photo on my old page. We don't know if it was actually you, but you were no longer a question mark in many of our minds.
I've met over 30 fraygrants, and talked on the phone to about 30 others. I'm sure of the sex of all those folks (and not one of them has misrepresented their sex in the Fray).
1003. Judithathome - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:27 AM PT
When I posted #1001, CalGal had #999. After I checked "newest message", I bumped up to Cals #1000 which posted at 10:13AM...please not that my message posted SEVEN minutes later. This is ludicrous!! There is no way it took me 7 minutes to type 2 sentences.
If these guys think they are getting $19.95 for THIS kind of service, they are insane.
1004. PsychProf - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:28 AM PT
Snod does phone sex...
1005. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:34 AM PT
What is a "backboard?" Is it one of those things the paramedics put under a patient before lifting him on to a stretcher? Or one of those boards used for body surfing? Or what? I ask in an effort to comprehend PM's description of CalGal.
1006. PsychProf - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:35 AM PT
Good to know that Slate's Crack Cybersleuth Team is now on the scene...I can just see them at the job..."Hey Frank, who is this PE guy...?"
1007. Mrtoner - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:40 AM PT
For those who've suggested that lurkers were not engaged in useful activity, I beg to differ. Presumably lurkers are studying the arguments of the participants and agreeing or disagreeing with one or more. This is clearly useful, since one of the rarest things one can hope to see among actual participating writers is the clause:
"You've convinced me. You're right and I'm wrong."
Accordingly, it would appear that any usefulness arising out of the actual posting, in terms of opinion-molding, must rely almost entirely on the lurkers.
1008. justlooking - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:44 AM PT
You've convinced me. You're right and I'm wrong.
1009. FreeToChoose - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:46 AM PT
patsyrolph
There's a total (OK, annular) eclipse today. Why are you here? Or are you?
1010. Mrtoner - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:49 AM PT
Hey, Microsofties, Rulers of the Universe. How come your chatroom doesn't work worth a damn?
The Postal Service is more efficient than this place.
The Russian Government.
American Airlines.
1011. Seguine - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:49 AM PT
"BTW, how do people know the sex of Fraygrants? I know that some think
they can tell by the writing style (a subject worthy of its own
discussion)..."
Ground Control to FTC: that discussion has been had, over the course of maybe 150 posts, and this one is an offshoot of some of the assertions and counterassertions made in it. (You may now resume floating in your tin can, far above the world.)
1012. CoralReef - Feb. 16, 1999 - 10:54 AM PT
A correction to my above comments: I disagree with Martin's recollection of the Phoenixx thing to the extent that he assigns a large role to CalGal in its end. But hey, memories differ.
PP: ???
1013. Seguine - Feb. 16, 1999 - 11:06 AM PT
MsIT, I cannot believe you're asserting that lurkers cannot be considered participants in online discussions.
1. Refer to MrToner's Message #1007.
2. Chloel has said that in a democracy there must be listeners as well as talkers. I've said not everyone must be listened to. But surely, if we're talking, and we're being listened to, and the listeners are male, then they have not "left" as you claim they do when women start dominating a conversation.
3. Why must it be assumed that male silence necessarily indicates derision or disinterest? CR observed over in the Race thread that too many unsupportable assumptions were being made, about what's inside other people's heads, for the conversation to have much objective value. That's going on here, too.
4. I hope you'll assume, and I'll return the favor, that any future silence from me around here is in large part the result of THIS SITE BEING TOO SLOW TO TOLERATE. God knows I've got things to do other than sit on my ass and wait for the screen to change each time I push a button.
1014. Mrtoner - Feb. 16, 1999 - 11:27 AM PT
Message #1008
No, you're right.
1015. Judithathome - Feb. 16, 1999 - 11:46 AM PT
A few times today when I've tried to post, it fails and the message "Server Too Busy" comes up followed by "the Fray is unavailable at this time". I know it seems as tho I'm whinning all over the place today about the rotten service we're getting but I'm getting really angry about it. Not only may I not pay in Sept. but I'm seriously considering demanding another umbrella.
1016. msivorytower - Feb. 16, 1999 - 11:46 AM PT
"MsIT, I cannot believe you're asserting that lurkers cannot be considered participants in online discussions."
Yeah, when you put it like that (and in light of the various posts on the subject by others) I can't believe I said it either.
I retract that line of argument.
To be honest, I've written a total of 4 major posts trying to discuss major points that have been raised today, all of them have been lost. Quite frankly, I haven't the energy to reconstruct them again, or the arguments right now.
I'll let this all sit, and assuming this site actually begins working again in the next day or so, I'll try to address the comments again.
"3. Why must it be assumed that male silence necessarily indicates derision or disinterest?"
No, it doesn't necessarily indicate derision or disinterest, it does indicate a reluctance to post any comments on a topic that is being dominated primarily by assertive women in this thread.
However, I note that since I made those comments regarding lack of male participation, suddenly more men are posting. I don't know if that's related to my comment (suggesting they WERE lurking and waiting for an opportunity to join) or if this is just a cruel trick of the gods designed to make me look the fool.
"4. I hope you'll assume, and I'll return the favor, that any future silence from me around here is in large part the result of THIS SITE BEING TOO SLOW TO TOLERATE."
Absolutely. The problems associated with posting today alone have given me a massive headache and scrambled my brains in fury.
1017. Judithathome - Feb. 16, 1999 - 11:53 AM PT
I'm beginning to wonder if it was EVER any different...did we ever post in a timely manner and have our posts actually show up? Were we ever able to keep up with a didcussion without being shut out of it by non-posts? Did I just dream that I could click on *list all threads* and have the list appear in less time than it takes for me to clean out my closet?
1018. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:02 PM PT
Ms,
"You've still not given any examples where the tenor of conversations change substantially because enough aggressive women have entered the ranks."
I did not say that assertive women change the nature of a conversation. I said the following:
Message #776:
"So rather than change forums to make them more female-friendly, I'd rather women get tougher.
The reverse happens all the time, btw. Men have learned a great deal from women. We just don't focus on that as much."
In that instance, I meant overall changes have occurred--both in the workplace, and in online forums.
Message #821:
"3) As I said before--men change, too, when the forums become mixed instead of predominantly male. It's just not as obvious and no one is measuring it."
Now, Seguine said this:
"Moreover, she conspicuously failed to mention an observation brought up by CalGal, which is that when enough women participate assertively in conversations previously dominated by men, the tenor of those conversations does change. This suggests that Ellespelle is right: women have the power to be heard, therefore women have a responsibility to make themselves heard."
I happen to agree with Seguine, but it is not what I originally said, so you will have to ask her for examples.
I will give examples of what I am talking about in the next post, assuming this one registers before the end of the century. (Which isn't far enough away for this to be an exaggeration.)
1019. TheDiva - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:02 PM PT
Judith
The Fray used to *fly*, it used to *hum*....you could have conversations going in three or four threads at a time.
Those were the good old days.
*sigh*
1020. Judithathome - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
Diva:
Thanks for sharing that with me....I had begun to doubt my memories. I think quite a few people are MIA today. (I hate TTalk; if everyone takes off for there, guess I'll just write a novel or something else as time consuming.)
1021. TabouliJones - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:17 PM PT
I must confess, I too have been lurking here for some time. I won't comment on the specifics of any post or series of posts, but I will toss off a few observations which may prove interesting (shit evan illuminating), given my status as a relative newbie to The Fray. Feel free to use me as a case study. (Incidentally, The Fray is the first online forum that has ever attracted more than a modicum of my attention).
1)Prior to this thread, I can recall only one Fray moment when I thought about the issue of gender in more than a superficial way. A few weeks back I first noticed the hostile dynamic between Elliot and CalGal. I perceived a one sided hatred, flowing from Elliot (a man) to CalGal (a woman),that first struck me as an instance of severe male hostility -- and, me thought, a Law and Order episode in the making. In a fit of chivalry, I chastised Elliot; going so far as to suggest that his apparent obsession was "tedious" and "vulgar". Since then, however, I have come to agree with Elliot's side, and gone so far as to post the words "queue Elliot" on several occasions when CalGal displayed what others have referred to as the rankling mendacity of her approach. I evan bandied an insult her way after growing weary of her (ironically) condescending responses to several of my posts, and after having perceived, in her, political sympathies that I find irksome. Specifically: In a btw to another fraygrant, CalGal mentioned her disdain for those who are "moronically" liberal and, suddenly I realized that in certain respects she perceives herself as a left leaning gadfly to knee-jerk liberals, which immediately brought out the antagonistic instincts of this particular knee-jerk liberal. Which,alas, brings this self serving set of observations to a point: most hostility in The Fray is the consequence of intellectual condescension and entrenched ideological antipathy. Rampant condescension is daunting and tedious. And an
1022. TabouliJones - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:18 PM PT
[Cont.] Rampant condescension is daunting and tedious. And any crank discourse (be it from the left or from the right) quickly loses its allure, unless, of course, it is executed with consistent pinnache.
2)Most threads assume political dimensions upon their inception, and, in the initial stages, they tend to be inundated with histrionics and rhetorical bomb shells. Often, those who strive to provide objective analysis, get labeled regardless, and end up having to demonstrate that their position is not reminiscent of some straw person created in their image by some crank interlocutor. A case in point would be this current thread. Almost immediately, the Herring article was labeled by someone as a thought deficient exercise in leftist feminism. Ideological positions were assumed and, on at least one occasion, a more objective fraygrant had to go back and clarify that she had not assumed an extreme (straw person) position.
3)Often, it seems that those who lob the heftier rhetorical bomb shells tend to abandon the thread when discussion turns towards a more sober assessment of the issues at hand. Indeed, it seems to me that the fraygrants who most exemplify this behaviour are staunchly conservative -- although this observation could be the result of perceptual bias on my part.
4)For whatever reason, whenever I come across a staunchly conservative frayster, I immediately assume that he is a male.
5)At least two fellow fraygrants have assumed that I am a woman when, in fact, I am male. Elliott politely asked me if I was female. And Pincher thinks that I am impersonating a female fraygrant, whom I can assume he doesn't like too much, because, the first time he addressed me, he flat out asserted that I was none too bright and should think twice before posting any further idiocies. (Incidentally, I thought Pincher was making some facile connection between myself and JonesatLaw, who I incorrectly thought to be a woman. I also assu
1023. TabouliJones - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:21 PM PT
[cont] (Incidentally, I thought Pincher was making some facile connection between myself and JonesatLaw, who I incorrectly thought to be a woman. I also assumed Marjoribanks to be a woman).
6)When I first began to participate here, I adopted a tentative and inquisitive approach to framing my posts. I adopted this approach partly out of respect for some of the intellects here, but mostly as
a premptive shield against the vitriolic (and tedious) sidewinds of the more pedantic and hostile fraygrants that linger throughout The Fray -- i.e. those alpha monkies (all indeed male) who display the stereotypically male and adolescent characteristics described by Herring.
7)Lurking in The Fray I have learned all kinds of sesquipidalian ways to say: "Piss off, you doody-head."
8) And finally: I have immensely enjoyed the time that I have spent lurking here, so much so that my girlfriend fears a nascent addiction. Although, I do fear that spending time here is very much like having an invisible friend with quarrelsome tendencies. I lurk here during my down time at work, and have actually found myself cursing fraygrants as I walk home afterwards. (And, oh yeah, I once had to explain to my myopic girlfriend that I was engaged in online conversation with one CalGal and not some "Call Girl").
So there you have it, observations from a newbie.
1024. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:24 PM PT
Yes, but what's a "human backboard?"
1025. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:26 PM PT
Tabouli: I think your observations are pretty perceptive.
1026. TheDiva - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:26 PM PT
Oh, this is cute.
I had messages 1001-1021, clicked on refresh....the banner at the top of the thread read 'messages 1004 - 1023'; but all I got were 1004 and 1005.
You know, I blame this entire thing on the tight labor market.
1027. 109109 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:34 PM PT
Diva
I lo e y . I ha al a s l v d yo. I ong to ca e s yo r s f s i nd un my ing rs t ro gh y u h r. I d s re you. I ant t ake ad, ass onate ove o ou.
1028. TheDiva - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:37 PM PT
um.......
1029. dsaintg - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:40 PM PT
Tried to read the attached paper and it told me "members only". How is one supposed to comment on a paper that one is restricted from reading?
1030. 109109 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:45 PM PT
Damn this confounded contraption!
1031. PsychProf - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:51 PM PT
Elliot...a human "backboard" would be a person who bounces comments right back, as in a basketball coming off its "backboard".
1032. TabouliJones - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:52 PM PT
It seems that the Slate server is not equipped to do the cyber-space equivalent of thinking and chewing gum at the same time. Whenever it rolls around to that time of day when Slate sends out its e-mail news updates (etc.), Fray service goes on the fritz.
1033. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 12:57 PM PT
Ah. Now it makes sense.
1034. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 1:22 PM PT
BTW, here is the archived discussion so far. It's a lot faster to read than the Fray.
1035. PsychProf - Feb. 16, 1999 - 1:31 PM PT
Happy Valentines day to the Crack Slate Cybersleuth team.
1036. TabouliJones - Feb. 16, 1999 - 1:45 PM PT
"Tried to read the attached paper and it told me "members only". How is one supposed to comment on a paper that one is restricted from reading?"
Interesting. You have a paper that was presumably born from a desire to improve internet democracy. It starts registering a bunch of hits that lead to interesting discussion. Then, its copy right owner gets all proprietorial and shit; yanking it from the eyes of a public that was determined to discuss its contents.
1037. patsyrolph - Feb. 16, 1999 - 2:13 PM PT
Off topic, Free to Choose:
I am here in Southern Caliofrnia. The annular eclipse is best viewd from Australia.i go half way
round the world only for totality _and_ it's summer in Australia (ugh).
1038. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 3:17 PM PT
BTW,
I didn't realize this but the posts are still on Fray Archives, too. And check out the new format!
1039. phillipdavid - Feb. 16, 1999 - 3:47 PM PT
Just checked out the Fray Archives, new format and all, but when I clicked on a catagory to the left, it did not open up for me. I assume it was meant to open up in the window in the right frame.
1040. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 3:52 PM PT
Phillip,
Yes, that's how it works for me, anyway. Maybe your browser?
1041. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 3:56 PM PT
dsaintg Message #1029:
The link works fine for me, and I'm not a "member" of its site.
1042. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:01 PM PT
Irv,
I got the same error message when I checked it out.
1043. phillipdavid - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:02 PM PT
CalGal,
It doesn't work for me in either Netscape 4.5 or IE 4; click on a catagory and nothing opens up.
1044. phillipdavid - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:03 PM PT
I just clicked on the Herring article and it opened for me.
1045. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:04 PM PT
CalGal:
I just tried it. Perhaps it's working now and wasn't earlier?
1046. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:04 PM PT
Hey, on a hunch I checked it out again. It works now.
But you're not nuts dsaintg--it didn't work before and I, too, got the "members only" message.
1047. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:07 PM PT
Irv,
Crosspost.
1048. ChristinO - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:41 PM PT
The Slate Cybersleuths are on Crack?
Well, that explains it.
Niner to Diva:
I look gooey . I have always loved yogurt. I'm wrong to care so but yogurt is fascinating. Don't misunderstand my craving. First it's rough to kick a yoguhrt habit. I disregard you. I cant seem to make bad-asses detonate over yogourt.
That cannot be right.
Okay, so now who's on crack?
Actually this total waste of time and space was an experiment to see if I could actually post. However, I find myself wishing I were unable to do so which defeats the purpose entirely.
criminy.
1049. ChristinO - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:43 PM PT
Wouldn't you just know it. The minute I get completely screwy The Fray speeds up.
1050. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 4:55 PM PT
Christin:
If it's either you or the Fray that's screwy, I hope we don't have to choose.
1051. ChristinO - Feb. 16, 1999 - 5:04 PM PT
Me too.
1052. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:00 PM PT
CalGal -- Message #990
"As far as PM's story goes, it was NOD, not Politics. His recollection is not accurate"
I acknowledge that I may have been wrong about the name of the thread, and in the interest of brevity, I did leave out a few important elements of the story, but you have to acknowledge that the jist of my story is accurate.
FTC Message #992
"I agree that the recollection of the event is entertaining, although not accurate."
You need to be specific about what is not accurate. As I admitted to CalGal, I left out a few important details (godlessclif, SlackJaw beating up on Jacobin after the girls had left, etc.), but in general I am correct in describing what happened. When the shit hit the fan, most of the men ran and the ladies stood and slugged it out.
I am also correct in one other important detail that MsIT has disputed, and that I want you and CalGal to confirm: MsIT did use the f-word, didn't she?
BTW, if you don't believe that Phoenixx is Ariel the Sprite after the way she burned you, then what can I possibly do to prove it? To quote CellarDweller, "do you want me to show you a semen-stained dress?"
CoralReef -- Message #996
"On the question of the gender of JadeGold I'd have to go with the one person in the fray who would be in a position to know: cllrdr."
And CellarDweller's take on things is?
MsIT -- Message #998
Please find the strength to rewrite your lost reply to me.
1053. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:01 PM PT
that should be "gist", not jist.
1054. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:09 PM PT
I should be the first to note that although the original impetus for the conflict I described above was the new-male-fraygrant's posts on women in the military, the real forward momentum for the conflict came only after the discussion turned to BoomerJeff's alledged homophobia. From that point on, it was a tag-team matchup of Phoenixx/Jacobin vs CalGal/MsIT. Yes, occassionally another poster would show up, but 90% of the posts were by those four fraygrants, three of whom are female.
1055. CoralReef - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:11 PM PT
Martin - earlier he gave the impression he thought she was female, or so I took it from his one-liner near the beginning of this discussion.
1056. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:16 PM PT
PM,
Actually, it was about the term "disease", and Phoenixx/Jacobin and I were debating that aspect. The Ms got tangled up in it for an entirely different reason and it was the Ms vs. Phoenixx. Just happened to be at the same time.
I do not remember it being particularly ugly.
If your purpose was to show that the women in this forum are tough, I agree. But then I've never disputed it. If you are asserting that they are tougher and more hostile than the men, you're just wrong.
I don't think you will find any correlation between gender and ability/desire to wade into a particular fray.
1057. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:22 PM PT
Coral Reef -- Message #1012
"A correction to my above comments: I disagree with Martin's recollection of the Phoenixx thing to the extent that he assigns a large role to CalGal in its end. But hey, memories differ."
CalGal was there to the very end. As usually happens with poor CG (who I love very much), the final disagreement was on an ambiguity in one of her posts. For several reams of internet space, Phoenixx and Jacobin tried to get her to see the error of her logic in it. CalGal refused to budge. Jacobin shrieked at her, "Look at the bloody post", while Phoenixx, who until that time had taken on all comers and all posts addressed to her, finally said she would have no more to do with her This in turn caused CalGal to send up a shriek of Hallelujah and cried out, "The Burning Bird is leaving me alone!"
As we say in the military (or as they use to say), there was sporadic small arms fire afterwards, but the main battle was over.
1058. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:25 PM PT
PincherMartin:
Who are you? Under what previous name(s) have you partcipated in the Fray?
1059. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
Tabouli Jones Message #1022 and Message #1023
I was just wrong about you. My apologies.
1060. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
Elliot 803 --
I am a long-time lurker.
1061. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:31 PM PT
So is that "I've never participated in the Fray under another name" or "I'm not going to tell you what other names I've used" or what?
1062. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:32 PM PT
CalGal --
"I do not remember it being particularly ugly."
Well, it wasn't particularly ugly on your part, but that episode stood out for weeks among many other fraygrants.
"If your purpose was to show that the women in this forum are tough, I agree. But then I've never disputed it. If you are asserting that they are tougher and more hostile than the men, you're just wrong.
Actually, the most important divide in the Fray that I can see isn't sexual orientation, race, gender, regional differences, or any of that other hooey, but mainly *politics* and secondly one's tenure in the Fray. The intelligence and force of one's post is probably another clear demarcation; that is, are you sharp poster or a dumbshit poster?
1063. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:33 PM PT
Elliot --
Its the one in the middle.
1064. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:36 PM PT
"This in turn caused CalGal to send up a shriek of Hallelujah and cried out, 'The Burning Bird is leaving me alone!'"
Don't be silly. I don't shriek.
The burning bird, that failed phoenix, announced that she would never speak to me again. I said, as I always do when people make global pronouncements, "Imagine, if you will, my devastation."
Your memory is not only faulty, you are invoking names in such a way start a meltdown all by yourself. If that's your purpose, have at it.
And by the way--no one attacks my logic. I am loopy, I am wacko, and my positions make no sense at all. Besides that, I am unclear, hasty, and continually ambiguous. Or so some people say. There is no point to attacking my logic when they have that list to choose from.
The debate in question was strictly on the ambiguity factor.
1065. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:38 PM PT
PincherMartin:
So you were lying when you claimed a few weeks ago that you were a newbie. I think people who come and go from the Fray under different names without revealing their previous identities should be sanctioned and possibly banned.
1066. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:40 PM PT
Pincher,
"Actually, the most important divide in the Fray that I can see isn't sexual orientation, race, gender, regional differences, or any of that other hooey, but mainly *politics* and secondly one's tenure in the Fray."
No, actually the first divide I see in the Fray is, for lack of a better word, approach.
1067. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:45 PM PT
CalGal --
"Your memory is not only faulty, you are invoking names in such a way start a meltdown all by yourself. If that's your purpose, have at it."
No, that isn't my purpose. My purpose is to show MsIT's selective memory. She tends to think that it is the males -- such as Socko and myself -- that are at the root of all Fray evil.
I have tried to show her instead that if their is an ugly side to PincherMartin, it is because I studied her example -- In short, I'm a mama's boy.
BTW, you still haven't confirmed or denied MsIT's use of F*** you.
1068. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:46 PM PT
Elliot --
You didn't get the joke, did you?
Haven't you ever seen _A Fish Called Wanda_?
Read my response again.
1069. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:47 PM PT
CalGal --
"No, actually the first divide I see in the Fray is, for lack of a better word, approach."
Explain.
1070. Msivorytower - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:50 PM PT
"I have tried to show her instead that if their is an ugly side to PincherMartin, it is because I studied her example -- "
Jaysus
Remind me not to think of you as friendly.
1071. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:52 PM PT
PM:
Oh, I get it. Welcome back, Stumbo.
1072. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:52 PM PT
Elliot:
"I think people who come and go from the Fray under different names without revealing their previous identities should be sanctioned and possibly banned."
Not bloody likely. As far as I'm concerned, they are guilty only of tacky behavior.
1073. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:53 PM PT
MsIT --
Of course, I'm not friendly, I'm family.
BTW, don't mistake my jovial tone here to mean that I don't stand behind my memory of what happened. I did selectively edit it, but the gist of what I wrote is correct, and you know it.
1074. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:54 PM PT
Pincher,
The larger point, which I think Niner's story showed vividly, is that this is not a forum where women are intimidated. Your example had little to do with gender. It was one of those tedious debates that happen here sometimes.
"No, that isn't my purpose. My purpose is to show MsIT's selective memory. She tends to think that it is the males -- such as Socko and myself -- that are at the root of all Fray evil."
She would not put Socko on that list, I am thinking. She will also come in here and tell you that she has said no such thing. Nor, to be fair, has she said that.
If I understand the Ms correctly, and I'm sure I do not, her point was twofold:
1) Men tend to leave when women are involved in an online debate in any number, or the conversation dies out. She first said this *does* happen in the Fray.
2) When I disputed this, she came up with some utterly feeble example, then said that women aren't here in enough numbers for us to dominate yet, but that the Fray has the potential for this phenomenon to occur in the future.
I can't see any evidence that this has happened, or will happen.
1075. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:55 PM PT
"Not bloody likely. As far as I'm concerned, they are guilty only of tacky behavior."
Well that certainly is a high offense here in Frayland, isn't it?
1076. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:55 PM PT
"Oh, I get it. Welcome back, Stumbo."
Elliot. You are clueless. PM's identity has been heavily discussed.
1077. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:55 PM PT
"if their is an ugly side to PincherMartin, it is because I studied her example"
With that spelling, I believe you.
1078. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:56 PM PT
Irving:
Not so much tacky as underhanded and deceitful. But I guess there's nothing much you can do about it.
1079. CalGal - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:58 PM PT
Irv,
Ha. That was *very* funny.
1080. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:58 PM PT
"Well that certainly is a high offense here in Frayland, isn't it?"
It won't get a reprimand from me. But it is not popular with the regulars -- from all sides of the political spectrum, all genders, races, regions, sexual orientations and approaches.
1081. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 6:59 PM PT
CalGal --
"The larger point, which I think Niner's story showed vividly, is that this is not a forum where women are intimidated. Your example had little to do with gender. It was one of those tedious debates that happen here sometimes."
The difference between Niner's and my story is that his was directly about gender, while mine dealt more with the poster's gender. My point was the women didn't shrink from fighting on a topic even as the men left because they couldn't hang with them.
1082. Msivorytower - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:00 PM PT
Elliot
The PM character is none other than Jeffery Steele, reincarnated with a bad attitude that he lays at my feet.
I see PM is as excessive in his creation of divisions as Calgal.
1083. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:01 PM PT
CalGal, shouldn't you be making dinner for your offspring, or something?
1084. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:01 PM PT
Irv --
Go moralize elsewhere.
1085. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:03 PM PT
MsIt --
You still haven't acknowledged the point of my story. In the Fray, women have more then held their own against the men, and not just because the men leave when the women show up.
1086. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:04 PM PT
Elliot: What is underhanded and deceitful about it? If ideas are what matter, why should you be so hung up on multiple identities?
1087. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:04 PM PT
MsIT --
"I see PM is as excessive in his creation of divisions as Calgal."
You sould be nicer to CG since she is taking your side on this debate now.
1088. Msivorytower - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:05 PM PT
PM
I acknowledge no points that you've made. I acknowledge only that my memory is very different than yours, that you are being deliberately provoking, that you are lying about my role in the exchange, and that you are being selective in your own memory.
Now, go play with Calgal.
1089. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:06 PM PT
Pincher:
It's not moralizing. It's a simple statement of fact. It's the only thing I can think of in the Fray which cuts across all boundaries.
1090. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:08 PM PT
Irv --
What is underhanded and deceitful is your playing the toady to Microsoft while they rip us off with bad service.
Everytime we have a problem here, and can't seem to get anybody to pay attention, you always come out with what a wonderful site we have , and aren't we so lucky to be here, ad nauseum.
If I am here under a double identity, then I am paying double, and I expect you to work twice as hard for me to get this fucking problem under control, got it!
1091. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:09 PM PT
So has PincherMartin copped to being JefferySteele yet? In his JS incarnation, he seemed to aspire to be the serious conservative voice the Fray needs.
1092. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:11 PM PT
MsIT --
"I acknowledge no points that you've made. I acknowledge only that my memory is very different than yours, that you are being deliberately provoking, that you are lying about my role in the exchange, and that you are being selective in your own memory"
You had better hope that no one has those posts archived.
1093. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:12 PM PT
Elliot --
I have acknowledged nothing here. But I have listened with keen interest.
1094. marjoribanks - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:14 PM PT
The degeneration of JS into this PMS character is quite interesting, pychologically speaking. I'm sure they have a name for the specific pathology, but it's clearly a visible and accelerated unravelling.
1095. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:15 PM PT
Pincher:
????
"What is underhanded and deceitful is your playing the toady to Microsoft while they rip us off with bad service."
I have not used the terms "lying and deceitful," not even once.
"Everytime we have a problem here, and can't seem to get anybody to pay attention, you always come out with what a wonderful site we have , and aren't we so lucky to be here, ad nauseum."
Please show me where I have said anything of the sort. I repeatedly acknowledge the problems, and how frustrated I am. I have been dealing extensively with Slate to get this resolved. What I have asked, is that fraygrants reserve judgement. If the problems aren't resolved relatively soon, there's nothing I can do or say. I hope you've noticed that at least I always pay attention, for what it's worth.
"If I am here under a double identity, then I am paying double, and I expect you to work twice as hard for me to get this fucking problem under control, got it!"
I think you may be under a misaprehension about how much I personally can do about the Fray, beyond making my thoughts known to the folks at the home office.
1096. Msivorytower - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:15 PM PT
Get em' out PM. I have nothing to fear, but you have some explaining to do.
Elliot,
The guy just recounted a mixed fantasy accounting of his enterance into the fray under the old handle. Trust me, there is now no question.
Personally, I think he aspires to what you identified, but it's questionable whether that will ever happen.
1097. elliot803 - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:16 PM PT
pseudo:
Well, in the real world ideas aren't the only things that matter. I think a serious debating society would consider the assumption and concealment of multiple identities by one of its members to be very bad form. Not that the Fray is anything like a serious debating society.
1098. LadyChaos - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:18 PM PT
PincherMartin,
Lighten up.
All,
I'm still wondering what the point of this thread is. Can somebody clue me in?
Cluelessly yours,
LChaos
1099. PincherMartin - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:20 PM PT
MsIT --
"The guy just recounted a mixed fantasy accounting of his enterance into the fray under the old handle. Trust me, there is now no question."
Itwas not my entrance into the Fray,darling
"Personally,I think he aspires to what you identified, but it's questionable whether that will ever happen."
Does that mean you are not going to answer my qustion?
1100. Msivorytower - Feb. 16, 1999 - 7:20 PM PT
LadyC
I'll leave that to be the great mystery of the day.
Me, I'm retiring for the evening, particularly since this looks to be heating up (deliberately, I might add) to a potential frayfight.