402. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 7, 1999 - 4:41 PM PT
You know, I really like PincherMartin. I liked him before I realised he was JeffreySteele, whom I also liked. But I like PM much more than JS. I just wonder what accounts for this sudden transformation from polite to confrontational.
403. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 4:41 PM PT
MsIvoryTower --
"Yes, yes, I'm sure they are quite, quite grateful you cross their paths......"
Yes, but there are so many, and I am but one man.
404. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 7, 1999 - 4:54 PM PT
I wasn't wrong about anything _at all_ with respect to Christians in Singapore. When Pocko blurted that Lee Kuan Yew was a Christian, I was rather surprised but didn't gainsay the claim because I didn't know any better. In fact, all that transpired was that Pocko disseminated the falsehood that "most Chinese in Southeast Asia are (Protestant) Christians", a claim I speedily and swiftily disputed, for it is a stupid and ignorant remark. Of course JeffreySteele later came and corrected the ignorant mischaracterisation of Lee Kuan Yew as well.
The only think I was wrong about, and I stood happily corrected by JS, was my claim that neo-Confucianism evolved under Jesuis influence.
405. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 7, 1999 - 4:55 PM PT
It's all in the archives, boys.
406. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 7, 1999 - 4:59 PM PT
The discussion, which took place in the religion thread, began as a discussion of the Protestant ethic, and I contended that in all respects which mattered to economic development this ethic was duplicated by the Confucian ethic, especially as redefined by Lee Kuan Yew and his "Asian Way". And this is where Socko inserted himself in medias res and spread the lie about how Lee Kuan Yew was an evangelical Protestant. What a fuckbrain the guy is.
407. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 5:05 PM PT
Pseudo --
"I wasn't wrong about anything _at all_ with respect to Christians in Singapore."
I wondered about that myself when Socko brought it up, but since it wasn't the point of my post, I let it pass. Sometimes you got to throw the dog a bone.
408. CoralReef - Feb. 7, 1999 - 5:18 PM PT
Sheesh, get a room guys.
Msit: Some have projected that the lack of females of marrying age may cause social upheaval in China in decades to come.
409. CIGARLAW - Feb. 7, 1999 - 5:26 PM PT
or world upheaval. when you can't get homegrown nooky, take someone else's. if a couplehundred million male competitors get killed, that's a bonus.
410. MrSocko - Feb. 7, 1999 - 5:47 PM PT
Well, PE, the only difference between JeffreySteele and Martin is that the latter is even more jealously devoted to you than the former. I remember being very surprised some months ago when I suggested that, in light of the fact that Steele clearly wished to bear your children, that the two of you formalize your relationship. This struck me as being responsible and proper. I recall Steele becoming extremely cross at my concern for both of you, which surprised me -- until I realised that he was privately seething over the fact that you hadn't yet popped the Big Question.
I'm pleased to see that this has since happened.
411. MrSocko - Feb. 7, 1999 - 5:49 PM PT
Message #404
Wrong. I claimed, incorrectly, that a majority of Singaporeans were Christian. And you accepted the claim -- dummy!
412. Msivorytower - Feb. 7, 1999 - 5:55 PM PT
Does this mean PE and Socko have smoked Pincher as JefferySteele?
Does this mean that PE and Jeffery/Pincher are officially engaged now?
What DOES this all mean?
And what is the Modest Female to do about it all?
413. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 6:03 PM PT
Re: Message #410, I am trying to write a rsponse, but frankly I am laughing too hard.
414. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 6:04 PM PT
Socko and MsIT --
I thought I made clear that I was only interested in PE for his primary sources.
415. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 7, 1999 - 6:27 PM PT
Message #411
Lame of brain, the remarks of yours that I quoted in Message #404 were _verbatim_.
416. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 6:51 PM PT
Lambkins --
The reason that PseudoErasmus and I have grown so attached -- almost like brothers really -- has been the realization that we are going to have to take turns smacking you around. It simply isn't sporting when we both team up to do it. So we had to reach an agreement where we would alternate days. Naturally, Pseudo, who pretty much owns your ass right now, doesn't want to give up his exclusive rights to it, but in a broadminded interest to share with others the great pleasure -- that up to now -- he has held solely for himself, has been willing to rent you out.
Of course, I am very appreciative, but not out of an interest to bear PE's children, but out of an interest for you to bear mine. Sorry for the confusion.
417. Msivorytower - Feb. 7, 1999 - 6:54 PM PT
Gawd
I cannot, c a n n o t, believe this is Jeffery Steele.
I think someone is wrong, somewhere. This is NOT, not, not, not, the JefferySteele I remember.
418. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 7:00 PM PT
MsIT --
I do feel sorry for this Mr Steele, and hope that when (or if) he returns to the Fray, that the rest of you will go easy on him.
419. CalGal - Feb. 7, 1999 - 7:03 PM PT
Ms,
Well, that's what I said when CoralReef first made the call. Yet I saw the same similarities that CR did. But JS was about as nonconfrontational as one could get and still have an opinion.
But given all the clues--including the fact that JS was engaged to an Asian woman--it seems as if someone is either determinedly pretending to be him, or JS has gotten a new 'tude.
Personally, Pincher, I like you either way. You're a kick. It is quite a shock, though, to think of you as JS.
420. CoralReef - Feb. 7, 1999 - 7:10 PM PT
This is like some bad prison flick. Socko I'd stay out of the laundry room.
421. MrSocko - Feb. 7, 1999 - 10:22 PM PT
CR:
It's worse than a prison flick; it's a prison Fraygrant! Clearly Mrs. Erasmus is posting from behind bars, perhaps in the library of a state institution. Crazed with lust, and distressed by his forced separation from Mr. Erasmus, she is filling The Fray with her lurid fantasies. I can only hope that no minors are reading these X-rated meanderings.
422. MrSocko - Feb. 7, 1999 - 10:24 PM PT
Ooops, I refered to Pincher Martin as a "he." The message should read:
"It's worse than a prison flick; it's a prison Fraygrant! Clearly Mrs. Erasmus is posting from behind bars, perhaps in the library of a state institution. Crazed with lust, and distressed by her forced separation from Mr. Erasmus, she is filling The Fray with her lurid fantasies. I can only hope that no minors are reading these X-rated meanderings."
423. marjoribanks - Feb. 7, 1999 - 10:26 PM PT
Psocko,
In any case, everyone knows that I, marjoribanks, own first caning rights.
424. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 10:51 PM PT
Well, Marjorie, you had your chance the other day, but like a chickenshit, you opted out.
Little Lambkins --
LOL at your Message #421. You have a real gift for malice. My suggestion is that you nurture this gift instead of venturing out into the world of information and ideas, where you are on much less steady ground. You write well, but everytime you try to form an idea, it gets caught in your throat. However, if you continue to troll through your collection of classic porn (_Fanny Hill_, _The Story of O_, All of your Erica Jong), you should be able to come up with enough scenarios -- like the one above -- to keep you interesting and worth having around the Fray. Otherwise it will be back to the leather straps for you!
425. marjoribanks - Feb. 7, 1999 - 11:08 PM PT
PMS,
Have you ever considered shutting the fuck up?
426. PincherMartin - Feb. 7, 1999 - 11:10 PM PT
No. Have you ever considered trying to make me?
427. Mrtoner - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:11 AM PT
Oh, wow, ##425-426. I just dropped in and look at the high level of debate we have going on! What's next? Your mother wore combat boots?
428. arkymalarky - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:54 AM PT
Well, at least that would be remotely on the subject, since it pertains to women's fashion.
429. bubbaette - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:58 AM PT
And speaking of footwear, I'm thinking about having my feet bound in order to be more attractive to Mr. Martin. What size golden lotuses should I go for?
430. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:37 AM PT
Oh hush, bubbaette, can't you see that the boys are scrapping between themselves! I shouldn't be surprised to learn that PseudoErasmus is at this moment giving PincherMartin a neck massage to cope with the stress of being hectored by marjoribanks.
431. bubbaette - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:40 AM PT
Socko
Darn, I was hoping that they were preening and puffing for the sake of the ladies present.
432. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:45 AM PT
If only it were that simple, bubbaette!
433. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:47 AM PT
It really does start to appear that the end of his Taiwan relationship spelt the dawning of a new age of friend Martin.
434. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:48 AM PT
It really does start to appear that the end of his Taiwan relationship spelt the dawning of a new age FOR friend Martin.
435. vegemite - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:55 AM PT
I thought this was a discussion regarding women's modesty (or lack of it). The posts sound like a bunch of angry bitchy women trying to out do each other with nasty words. People, people, lets talk about the subject at hand. Its interesting. Any of you got any thoughts other than trying to scratch each others posts out?
436. MizPhys - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:01 AM PT
Veg
I find it offensive that you liken two sniping males to "a bunch of angry bitchy women." Women obviously have no monopoly on that type of behavior.
437. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:01 AM PT
MARTIN TO PSEUDO: "Oh Pseudo, promise you'll never leave me!"
PSEUDO TO MARTIN: "Jeff, you know you'll always be on my List."
MARTIN TO PSEUDO: "I love you, Pseudo!"
PSEUDO TO MARTIN: "And I love you too, Jeffrey!"
MARTIN TO PSEUDO: "Could you rub a little lower please!"
PSEUDO TO MARTIN: "With pleasure, old bean!"
438. MizPhys - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:04 AM PT
Point made.
439. msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:05 AM PT
Vegemite, vegemite.....sigh
You fail to understand the significance of the conversation over the last 200 posts or so.
Prime females, those with the best mating possibilities, are among the more modest. Prime males, those with the best mating possibilities, display their prowess, aggression, and colors, so that they can lure those modest females into their lair.
We have been witness to an astounding display of male posturing over the last 100 or so posts (actually much longer), and it is an important lesson in evolutionary psychology.
Note, please, beginning at around post 100 or so, how the discussion veered from what it meant to be the modest woman, to what men love and value about women, who men think are the most beautiful women in the world - the best dressers, the most charming, the most physically alluring (with us poor American women coming in a close last, just ahead of Iranian's I believe), and then coming about to this latest appendage contest (who is the most capable of successful mating).
Really, this conversation has been right on target, if only you examine it properly.
440. bubbaette - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:16 AM PT
Little boy and little girl looking at each other's privates:
Him: Ha! you don't have one of these!
Her: My mom says that with this I can get all of those I want!
441. vegemite - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:39 AM PT
misivorytower - I feel thoroughly chastized and am suitably mortified. Thank you for your very interesting post. Your observations are spot on. Next time I will read back much further before opening my big mouth. I will keep quiet from now on and not speak until I know what I'm talking about.
442. arkymalarky - Feb. 8, 1999 - 10:18 AM PT
Gee, Veg, relax. If everyone did that some threads would cease to exist.
I think Irv needs to start a Testosterone thread.
443. resonance - Feb. 8, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
Martin:
You're an idiot. If someone presumes to talk about Asian-Americans as a group and assigns them a common tendency to do X or Y, they can't justify their statements by saying that the conversation demands such generalizations. Hell, you're the one who came up with the conversation. It's much like declaring an opening hunting season on nuns, then wandering about shooting them with a Luger, being apprehended, and then complaining to the jury that shooting nuns is what one does in Nun season.
You're still talking in imprecise, inaccurate, and hastily generalized terms -- which was what I pointed out in the first place, and to which you responded with your pitched hissy fit, even though you have agreed in principle to all my allegations. (Funny how you claim not to be able to understand my posts, yet demonstrate understanding of them).
And please, don't bother explaining that you were just stirring the pot. You got your response, didn't you?
444. resonance - Feb. 8, 1999 - 11:28 AM PT
(chuckle)
Oh, yes, MSIT, spot on. Disturbing to be so transparent, but I'll admit it.
445. PincherMartin - Feb. 8, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
I want to let everyone know that I have ordered The Story of ****O from Amazon.com. I hope to lead an unofficial reading of the book, and would like Socko to share his experiences that led him to conclude that the book is one of the five greatest novels he has read.
446. msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 11:52 AM PT
Res
You really are precociously adorable.
447. ChristiPeters - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:15 PM PT
*yawn*
448. ChristiPeters - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:16 PM PT
Are the boys done bickering yet, or should I just go back to sleep?
449. ChristiPeters - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:18 PM PT
(being around men is excellent practice in coping with children)
450. PsychProf - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:35 PM PT
True enuff Christi...lotta little boy in many of us...beware, however, of old men with no interest in nonsense or sex....they make wars. I am not sure at all that the term "bickering" describes male interaction...
451. aldavis - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:37 PM PT
If these guys really are trying to attract, they will start to brag how sensitive they are. If that doesn't work, they may try the "I'm really not sure I'm not gay."
You see, ladies, men, when it comes to winning the prize have no modesty. I, on the other hand, feel I can really communacate better with ladies that with men. I feel I intuatively understand their concerns.
452. PsychProf - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:44 PM PT
I duuno Al....gimme a beer and a beavershot....that's where it's at. Sicka Alan Alda, actually. And to think that pussy owns an island near St. Johns...what the hell is he gonna do there?
453. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:46 PM PT
"(being around men is excellent practice in coping with children)"
I don't know about the men here, Christi, but if someone said such a thing about women, blanket, gross, vulgar generalization as it is, I'd have a knee jerk reaction to tell them to go F***off.
In fact, when Pincher made his crude, vulgar generalizations about American women, I did just that (in so many words).
I ask the same thing of you that I implied to PM, do you really think this is an effective way to win friends and influence people?
454. PsychProf - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:47 PM PT
I think Wonkers caused me to have a testosterone surge.
455. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:49 PM PT
Jaysus,
I'll say, PP.
456. PsychProf - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:52 PM PT
Setem up....screw the modesty topic...let's crack awful jokes and feel like 17 again.
457. ChristiPeters - Feb. 8, 1999 - 1:57 PM PT
". I am not sure at all that the term "bickering" describes male interaction... "
"bickering" is not a term which applies in general to male interaction, but it certainly applies to this thread since about post 100. That is what I was referring to. Apparently, it is not over yet.
Bye. I'll come back when (or if) the subject is once again Female Modesty.
(MsIt - methinks thou dost over-react)
458. PsychProf - Feb. 8, 1999 - 2:03 PM PT
Allright, you modesty lovers....once and for all, who's drinking with me?
459. aldavis - Feb. 8, 1999 - 2:04 PM PT
Monica went to the Doc and asked him to remove her love hadles.
"But Monica, how will you hear?"
460. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 2:07 PM PT
ChristiP
methinks your post was disparaging
methinks your post was an example of the kind of alienating things men and women do to each other; ridiculing each other and acting as if the other sex is to be tolerated (from a superior position)
methinks this is an antagonistic attitude that does nothing to further understanding and respect between the sexes.....
methinks a lot of things....
461. Jonesatlaw - Feb. 8, 1999 - 2:15 PM PT
What's this thread again, "Chest Pounding amoung House Apes?"
462. Jonesatlaw - Feb. 8, 1999 - 2:18 PM PT
ok, try "Chest Pounding in House Apes- a field study."
463. resonance - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:17 PM PT
I think the last several posts are people overreacting to the overreactions of other people. I did not read all the way to the end (though I thought I had) before I last responded to Martin. Had I done so, I probably wouldn't have said anything else, and in retrospect I didn't have to anyway.
If everyone's so hot to talk about female modesty, then why doesn't someone bring something up? The last thing on the table was Martin's egregious assertions on the nature of Asian and American women. The stereotypically male interactions spread throughout the last hundred or so posts were interesting, but so was the female response to Martin: a couple of outraged squawks and a few choice words. I didn't see any of the injured parties debating what he had to say. At least one poster, the Ms, hung back to see what others would say first.
Is that some form of female modesty? Or some other gender-specific culturally-inculcated trait?
464. Mrtoner - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:18 PM PT
Methinks that "methinks" is a deservedly archaic usage.
465. resonance - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:19 PM PT
Allow me to play devil's advocate here; someone could take a macho point of view and say that all you women were hanging back and waiting for some guy to take up the argument for you. If so, what's up with that?
466. Mrtoner - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:19 PM PT
Hey, everybody! Pay attention! Henry's talking about the Rule of Law again!
467. Mrtoner - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:25 PM PT
The nicest thing, to me, about the existence of female modesty is that it's so damned exciting when a female drops it in one's honor.
Clearly, the joy is in the chase. Just as nudity is much more interesting if it's unusual, immodesty is only to be craved in an atmosphere of decorum. Remember the old poem about "delight in disorder?"
So I vote for modesty...so long as the women don't make a fetish out of it.
468. CoralReef - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:29 PM PT
"If everyone's so hot to talk about female modesty, then why doesn't someone bring something up?" Exactly.
469. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:34 PM PT
Martin:
I strongly suggest you reconsider buying _Story of O_. It's not your kind of book. For a start, it's French. Americans like you don't read French books, don't go to French movies. They're too *hard*. Second, you appear to think that any work of literature that makes use of mutually complicit sexual acts is pornography; a prole's disposition, to be sure. It would be entirely hopeless to explain to you the interest a novel might sustain on account of, oh: alternate beginnings and endings; a sustained air of abstraction, of independence from time, place and personality; its use of European Christian mythology; amatory intrigue, moving from the simplest of settings to a maze of relationships; and, finally, most hopeless of all in your case, the fact that _Story Of O_ remains a beautifully written, elegant book entirely devoid of pornography or smut.
470. darkviolet - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:37 PM PT
resonance -
Re: Message #465
Why in the world would any of us want to argue with PincherMartin about his taste in women?
471. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:40 PM PT
Message #469
Hahahahahahaha!
472. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:49 PM PT
"When she became completely naked, her high-heeled leather sandals and her black nylon stockings rolled down to her knees, putting into sharp relief the subtle lines of her legs and the whiteness of her thighs, Sir Stephen, who had also stood up, seized her loins with one hand and pushed her toward the sofa. He made her kneel down, with her back against the sofa, and in order to make her press more forcefully against it with her shoulders than with her waist, he forced her to spread the thighs slightly. Her hands lay on her ankles, which forced her belly to gape, and above her tendered breasts, her throat arched back."
_The Story of O_, by Paule Réage (the passage is my quick translation)
Oh, yes, it's really the combination of Joyce and D.H. Lawrence and Proust that Pocko makes it out to be!
473. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:50 PM PT
ERRATA
Pauline
though I wouldn't be surprised if she were Paul.
474. Mrtoner - Feb. 8, 1999 - 3:57 PM PT
Gee, I read The Story of O when I was a teenager, and although it was "only" an English translation, it didn't seem particularly difficult to understand. If it was Literature, I missed it. But it was perfect for a 14-year-old.
475. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 4:26 PM PT
MrToner:
"But it was perfect for a 14-year-old."
I'm pleased to see you chose some good reading over the recent Christmas break.
PE:
My, what *astute* criticism. Keep at it, old chap!
476. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 4:30 PM PT
Yes, I read the Story of O, and found it to be boring. I'm sorry, but that sort of self-destructiveness on the part of a female doesn't do a damn thing to turn me on.
Res,
I did hang back, good call, partly because I always step out first, and partly because it was clear the man was playing games. Outrage was what he wanted, and to ruffle some female feathers (so, I indulged him with some play acting myself).
Besides, Darkviolet is perfectly correct here, why would anyone care to challenge PM's taste in women? What was extraodinary was that he believed we might rise up to try to prove our worth in the face of such blatant provocation.
What was interesting (after several women pointed out the stupidity of such a generalization) was the male reaction, one of "who can show they are the most urbane and international in their tastes".
Soooo, I would suspect the modest female doesn't protest when she gets usurped (at least according to Shalit and Young).
And really, I liked ChristinO's take (or was it someone else?), we're still discussing the issue of modesty wrt females alone.
What is the value of modesty in the sexes generally?
Me, I'll speak right up and say I like complex men, who are not easily pegged or figured out, and so, modesty is part of that complexity for me.
Sort of James Bond in the Fray.
477. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 4:31 PM PT
Yes, I read the Story of O, and found it to be boring. I'm sorry, but that sort of self-destructiveness on the part of a female doesn't do a damn thing to turn me on.
Res,
I did hang back, good call, partly because I always step out first, and partly because it was clear the man was playing games. Outrage was what he wanted, and to ruffle some female feathers (so, I indulged him with some play acting myself).
Besides, Darkviolet is perfectly correct here, why would anyone care to challenge PM's taste in women? What was extraodinary was that he believed we might rise up to try to prove our worth in the face of such blatant provocation.
What was interesting (after several women pointed out the stupidity of such a generalization) was the male reaction, one of "who can show they are the most urbane and international in their tastes".
Soooo, I would suspect the modest female doesn't protest when she gets usurped (at least according to Shalit and Young).
And really, I liked ChristinO's take (or was it someone else?), we're still discussing the issue of modesty wrt females alone.
What is the value of modesty in the sexes generally?
Me, I'll speak right up and say I like complex men, who are not easily pegged or figured out, and so, modesty is part of that complexity for me.
478. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 4:33 PM PT
I had a feeling I didn't catch that in time. My bad.
Delete the last line of the first message (that's the only change), I don't know how that got left in the comment (I'd been talking about something else entirely but deleted it when it seemed uninteresting).
479. aldavis - Feb. 8, 1999 - 4:37 PM PT
MIT
Well, I could't agree more. You are a most discerning lady.
aside, "Now, what canI say to make this broad think I'mcomplex and interesting."
A poor attempt at humor to show you how the male mind works. We are not really offended when women point out that we are like children, because we know we are. No matter the age, occupation, financial worth, men are forever locked just past puberty. They will assume any pose to win the prize. Women are better people; they just are not as much fun.
480. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 4:51 PM PT
"We are not really offended when women point out that we are like children, because we know we are."
I'm amazed you take pleasure in this notion. Were I a man, I'd feel offended, as if my masculinity can only be defined as immature. I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more with you on this.
Men and women each have characteristics common to their sex, that men are consumed by the need to mate is part of their biological makeup. That women have "nesting" instincts is also part of their biological makeup. Neither trait is exclusive to one sex, nor is the presence of one trait or another necessarily an indication of maturity or immaturity. It is biological at heart.
"Women are better people; they just are not as much fun."
Again, I disagree. We may not be as much fun simply because the risks of playing the games many men want us to play (lots of sex, no commitments) carries a significantly higher price tag for us. The business of bearing children is not to be taken lightly, and women can suffer much greater hardships in their lives if they are reckless wrt indiscriminate sex.
Thankfully, birth control methods have helped women to some degree in this conflict of interests between them and men.
481. aldavis - Feb. 8, 1999 - 5:00 PM PT
MIT
You make excellent points, let me grant that at the outset.
I can be mature, at times, if the occasion arises; but inside I, and every male, thinks along childish lines. When he is aroused, he is that teenage boy who really believed they will be no consequence to his actions. Witness WJC.
Lenny Bruce talked about how men were. he used this example: a guy is enjured in an car crash. When he is rushed to the hospital in the ambulence, as the nurse tries to sedate him, he is trying to put his hand up her dress.
Only a guy willing to lie to himself, blames Clinton for getting what he could from Monica. Look, MIT, I'm not proud to be saying this, just being honest.
482. Slackjaw - Feb. 8, 1999 - 5:18 PM PT
You sound a lot like Cigarlaw, aldavis. And, you are speaking for yourself here.
Really though--you hold up Clinton as somehow representative?
483. aldavis - Feb. 8, 1999 - 5:28 PM PT
slackjaw
Well, of course, you are right. I speak for myself, for that there are no exceptions.
Back in the days I taught school, I often used object lessons. One was, I would pinch a student, hard enough for him to notice, not hard enough to injure. Then i would ask how many felt his pain. My desire was to illustrate how confusing language can be and to make a point about empathy and sympathy.
Yes, we are locked within our limited experiences, and yet through life one gleans what insight one can.
I make no brief for Clinton's bad behavior, yet i can understand it. I know my own procliaties, and i suspect I am not such a strange creature as to be totally different.
484. Slackjaw - Feb. 8, 1999 - 5:39 PM PT
Yes, we glean the insights we can--but one of these isn't how all members of one's category think, and acknowledge that they think unless they are categorically deceiving themselves.
You shouldn't couch your beliefs in language about how all males think, is all.
485. ChristinO - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
Hmmmm....I believe I heard my name.
Yes, Ms, it was my point that the discussion of modesty was focused strictly on women. Continuing this trend, what followed for the next roughly three hundred posts was a discussion of which nationalities and ethnicities of women are the most desirable.
At the risk of being immodestly assertive:
- Mr. Toner is incorrect that White Males and Americans are the easiest and most exceptable targets. Fat women have that dubious honor.
- I find it tedious that discussions about women so often result in the consideration of what men want.
- The Story of O is much better written and certainly more thought provoking than any of the Victorian S&M whack material I've seen. Actually it's the only one I've read that considers the psychology of sadomasochism at all. In that it is thought provoking and ultimately terrifying.
486. ChristinO - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:28 PM PT
It looks as if an interesting discussion has arisen.
Damn.
Just when it's time to hit the road
487. Ellespelle - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:29 PM PT
Message #199 Hmmm, a "little" short...might PM's opinions be slightly tinged with S-M's Complex? (Not meant in reference to bondage...hehheh.)To elaborate: a tendency exhibited by some short men to criticize the flaws in others, thereby deflecting judgment from themselves.
488. PincherMartin - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:36 PM PT
ElleSpelle
5'10"
489. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:37 PM PT
What is S-M's complex, Ellespelle?
My father was a very short man (5'6"), and did not need to criticize anyone to feel statuesque. However, he was very aware of the prejudice that exists in this culture against short men.
Statistically, short men have lower job promotion rates, and lower salaries than tall men (holding constant their education, training and skills). So there is some basis for concern among our short brethern.
490. PincherMartin - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:38 PM PT
MsIT --
"Besides, Darkviolet is perfectly correct here, why would anyone care to challenge PM's taste in women? What was extraodinary was that he believed we might rise up to try to prove our worth in the face of such blatant provocation."
But you did rise up! I couldn't shake you off my tail all weekend!
491. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:43 PM PT
Could you elaborate?
Are a few random posts evidence of "being on your tail?", if so, I must plead guilty, although I could hardly get a word in edgewise when the malefest began.
You also need to read farther, I did admit to indulging you with some play acting of my own.
492. PincherMartin - Feb. 8, 1999 - 6:55 PM PT
Socko --
"I strongly suggest you reconsider buying _Story of O_. It's not your kind of book. For a start, it's French. Americans like you don't read French books, don't go to French movies. They're too *hard*."
I have already read the book. I don't remember much about it -- I read it about 10 years ago -- except that its a bore. But I am hopeful that with your guidance you can show me why it is one of the *five best* novels you have *ever* read. I missed this on my first reading.
And yes, I don't read French. But then neither do you. OTOH, I do read Chinese, a very difficult language, while you speak and read only English (Of course, you use many foreign words from languages that you don't understand just to show your sophistication). A question from a dumb American fearful of French books: Do Kiwis like you go to French movies to feel sophisticated?
"Second, you appear to think that any work of literature that makes use of mutually complicit sexual acts is pornography; a prole's disposition, to be sure."
Not at all, Socko. It is your taste I find pornographic.
493. Ellespelle - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:07 PM PT
PM
...average...
That about sum things up? ;)
494. PincherMartin - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:10 PM PT
MsIT --
I was just joshing you, gal. Gosh, you are so serious all the time.
495. Msivorytower - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:12 PM PT
Pincher
I know. It is a failing. And I find humor in the subtle ironies of life, not the broad slapstick or exaggerated characterization.
I am, as usual, out of step with the majority.
496. PincherMartin - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:14 PM PT
Well, we did have a good time this weekend, although Socko seems to be a little bruised.
497. Ellespelle - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:24 PM PT
Message #489 If you noticed, Ms, I said "some...." I happen to work for one of those who does exhibit the behavior I described, and from what I understand of his marriage--he's one of the most pussy-whipped men I've ever encountered; rather paradoxical, wouldn't you say? Another trait he shares with certain men who seem to find "some" women threatening: he has a "hard" time keeping his gaze away from my tits--but perhaps that's just a by-product of his stature.
For the record, PM: the love of my life is at most only two inches taller than I, and I am a slightly-taller-than-average 5'7"; hence--he's shorter than you! So, as I very clearly stated--only "some" shorter men succumb to the bad habit of allowing society make them feel at all lessened by shorter-than-average stature. By the way, my 5'9" sweetie is the sexiest man I could ever want, and 7 years my junior, to boot! :D
498. resonance - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:32 PM PT
Speaking for myself...
I find that modesty as a primary character trait in a woman is only alluring in that manner which a Christmas present is alluring to a child. And you can only unwrap a package once. You might find a nice gift inside the paper, but you really never regard it again with such zeal as in those moments before, and during, the process of unwrapping and opening up the present, and getting to play with it the first time.
And I find that a woman's immodesty, as her primary character trait, has an allure of... convenience, which is usually meaningless in and of itself and never leads to anything meaningful, and in any case is usually to be avoided. Such an allure is that of a gumball in a vending machine. One drops their quarter, sees if the machine is the sort that gives out one gumball or several, and walks away chewing their gum (have you noticed that gumballs are usually hollow?)
In a non-sexual sense, modesty and immodesty are neutral traits as far as I am concerned -- that is to say, it depends upon what other traits are present, whether modesty or immodesty is pleasant or annoying.
IAC, neither trait should be chosen based on attractive power.
I guess that the point is one should probably chose to be modest or immodest based on reasons other than pretense, but rather should be modest or immodest as best complements their character, because neither trait ought to be the one by which one seeks to be known.
False modesty and forced immodesty are ugly traits, IMO. I think people, female or male, should choose for themselves, by themselves, to please themselves, whether to be modest or immodest.
499. MrSocko - Feb. 8, 1999 - 7:51 PM PT
Message #492 The Prole:
"[I] don't read French. But then neither do you. OTOH, I do read Chinese, a very difficult language, while you speak and read only English (Of course, you use many foreign words from languages that you don't understand just to show your sophistication)."
Well, your syntax suggests that you have a few basic difficulties with English sentence construction. You obviously have no idea how to use periods and brackets -- it's a mistake you appear to make frequently.
So you know how to speak Chinese. Far-fucking-out. What the hell does that have to do with reading widely?
"Do Kiwis like you go to French movies to feel sophisticated?"
I'm reasonably well read when it comes to the French classics (well enough read to know that PE is trying become the Internet's answer to Montaigne). My taste when it comes to the cinema is less noteworthy. Sophisticated? Probably more so than somebody who slums it in the suburbs of Northern California.
"It is your taste I find pornographic."
Explicit sexuality in art doesn't faze me, if that's what I understand you to mean. Your attitude to the same subject (which is also reflected, I believe, in your childish views on Asian and American women) is actually rather sad and emotionally stunted.
500. resonance - Feb. 8, 1999 - 8:01 PM PT
I cannot speak for other men, but the things which attract me don't have much to do with packaging, and only a little more to do with presentation. Then again, I'm notoriously difficult to attract. ;-)
I said something earlier about how women generally look most enticing when they aren't trying to entice. There are, of course, exceptions -- I guess it's a matter of looking natural in the clothes and setting you're in. As a friend says of dates, it's more fun to render them disheveled when they spend so much time in the first place looking beautiful.
Maybe it's just an indicator of my general contrariness and my dislike of social artifice, I don't know. But maybe the act of being deliberate about modesty or immodesty sort of reduces the value of a potential relationship, and leads people to treat you more like a thing and less like a person. One more reason why women -- and men -- should think of themselves first, last, and always when deciding how to comport themselves.