MSIT:
I placed 'feminist' in quotation marks for a reason. I do agree that it was sort of misleading to do so. But part of the problem we face in our culture is that lots and lots of things pass for 'feminism'. Some of that springs from the fact that feminism is in itself so diverse and fragmented that it's hard for a feminist to find a politically sound stand to take; much of the rest arises from the fact that anti-feminist types can pick and choose among the statements made by this diverse body and make some kind of rhetorical Frankenstein's Monster of distasteful and offensive policy, and call it the Feminist Agenda. And they can then put this hashwork strawman up and attack it as they please, and discredit the movement as they wish.
And, moreover, this diversity within the movement, which is now accepted if not desired by feminism itself, allows any number of people, with whatever motive, to call themselves 'feminists' and say what they have to say. And if it's negative or divisive, maybe that's all that the speaker is aiming for (remember the Karen Lehman dialogue?)
The reason I called them 'feminists' in that offhanded fashion is that, while both women disavow being Feminist -- it's a derogatory connotation, apparently, to them, and they can score quick and easy points attacking Feminism and implying that their opponent is a Feminist -- they both, ironically, claim to be supporting women. Like, they're some kind of savory alternative to their opposition, (who are all, naturally, a bunch of bra-burning butch types or something, you know)?
102. ChristiPeters - Feb. 5, 1999 - 2:41 PM PT
bloodnfire - Just for the record, while I would love to find a life partner, I also know that I can live the rest of my life just fine without a man. IOW, a partner would enhance my life, but is not necessary for life.
Judithathome - Personally, I think they should be paying Slate. After all, they get to plug their books.
103. resonance - Feb. 5, 1999 - 2:41 PM PT
So much of 'feminism' these days takes a very similar form (once again, remember Lehman? and her lipsticked wet-tee-shirted colleagues?) and so many self-professed 'feminists' spend their time taking shots at capital F feminism that the comparison to these two yobbos seemed valid to me.
At any rate, I'm glad you agree that the dialogue participants (distinguished gentlepersons, I'm sure!) are about as Feminist as Phyllis Schafly.
104. Judithathome - Feb. 5, 1999 - 3:27 PM PT
Right on, Res! (and write on, also)
105. bubbaette - Feb. 5, 1999 - 4:31 PM PT
Is feminine modesty what lets other people take credit for our work? Is it feminine modesty to come up with an idea in a meeting but be ignored until a man says the exact same thing and is hailed for his foresight?
I suppose it's feminine modesty to say "settle for second instead of making a fuss -- what does it all matter ten years from now anyhow?"
When I first heard Othello -- I think it was Laurence Olivier -- it sounded so much like a domestic violence scene that it was frightening. In a way, she *was* a prized posession -- to be destroyed at the whim of her owner. She really was not a person in her own right.
So are we to aspire to greater Opheliahood?
106. chloel - Feb. 5, 1999 - 5:13 PM PT
Margaret Atwood on the history, literary and otherwise, of madness, especially the rise of the drowned Ophelia; she also has a lecture on Villainesses that I especially like for its tabulation of Emma Bovary:
"A good course in double-entry bookkeeping would have saved the day. I suppose she is a foolish women who did a stupid thing for an insufficient reason, since the men in question were dolts."
107. bubbaette - Feb. 5, 1999 - 5:17 PM PT
Chloel
I think she just read too many harlequin romances and watched too many soap operas.
108. chloel - Feb. 5, 1999 - 5:20 PM PT
Bovary, not Atwood, I assume?
109. ChristinO - Feb. 5, 1999 - 5:35 PM PT
Thanks Bubba, that part of modesty is never even touched on in the debate. Modesty of achievement and talent as opposed to modesty of the flesh.
The thing is, both types of modesty are tied to one another when it comes to women. It becomes not about an obvious flaunting of skin---a la Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct---but about behaving immodestly which incompasses everything from screwing on the first date to "being forward". Being forward to include things like making too much eye contact with a man and having the unmitigated audacity to present one's self in the boardroom as a real player rather than a coffee fetchit.
The problem for me is still that we are discussing FEMALE modesty rather than MODESTY itself as if it were the burden of women to be modest and the duty of society to encourage and enforce it. That is the sexist root of it.
110. PincherMartin - Feb. 5, 1999 - 5:52 PM PT
I realize this post is going to get me into a lot of trouble (especially after my posts in Racism and Stereotypes), but if I can't be provocative in the Fray, then where can I be provocative. Still, I will defend every word of it.
I find American women among the most unattractive women on the planet. Besides being grossly overweight, they also try to act like men. I suppose they do this because they think it makes them more equal. I find European and East Asian women (the only other women I have experience with) can be strong without being masculine; in fact, some of the strength these women show is far greater than anything of the sort I have seen in their American counterparts. Why is it that American women haven't discovered this secret yet
111. darkviolet - Feb. 5, 1999 - 5:57 PM PT
PincherMartin -
Because they don't want to attract men like you, idiot.
112. ChristinO - Feb. 5, 1999 - 6:01 PM PT
DV,
Sometimes I absolutely love you.
113. aldavis - Feb. 5, 1999 - 6:32 PM PT
pincher
I'll relate a story from my old college days. It was a 17th Century Lit class and we were readin Dunne. the Prof was making the point that Dunne had a bad image of women. I argued he had a realistic view of women. the argument did not end at the 50 minute hour but went out to the hall, where the Prof's Secretary was waiting to get some papers signed. After she listened for a while she said, "Look you guys, it's obvious you have known different women."
In actuality, I've never been with a fat women, and the women I live with is strong and beautiful. But we get what we can in life.
114. resonance - Feb. 5, 1999 - 6:50 PM PT
Bubbaette:
The female lead in Othello is Desdemona. And, yes, some scenes in that movie really suggest DV. Sadly, I have not seen the Olivier, (I didn't even know Olivier did Othello) but I know the version starring Lawrence Fishburne and Ken Branagh, and the DV theme is quite strong.
Ophelia is the female lead in Hamlet.
115. resonance - Feb. 5, 1999 - 6:51 PM PT
gak. Some scenes in that PLAY really suggest DV.
116. CalGal - Feb. 5, 1999 - 6:57 PM PT
Olivier's Othello had Frank Finlay as Iago, Maggie Smith as Desdemona, Derek Jacoby as Cassio, and Joyce Redman as Emilia. It was okay, but Maggie Smith seemed off, to me.
My favorite version is the BBC version, even though I didn't care for Hopkins. But Bob Hoskins as Iago was great. And Penelope Wilton and Rosemary Leach, as Desdemona and Emilia, kicked ass. Believably strong portrayals.
117. 109109 - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:02 PM PT
Re American women and attractiveness - I would agree with PM if his comments were limited to women from the Midwest and the NorthEast and all women who visit theme parks and have sued or dated the President.
118. PincherMartin - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:17 PM PT
Al Davis --
Americans, both men and women, are horribly overweight. If you have ever been abroad you will know what I mean. This is not a characteristic that -- like skin color -- cannot be helped, but one that reflects American's poor eating habits and sedentary lifestyle. I don't think there is another nation on earth that has as many citizens as fat as the United States (although I hear the Germans are in the contest). But while I find this obesity unattractive, it was not the main point of my post. Certainly one could put up with a little heftiness in one's mate if there were other attractive characteristics they had. But I find that American girls, in general of course, don't have the same charm, grace and strength of women from Europe and East Asia. Consequently, I date, almost exclusively, Asian and European women. If you have found an American woman who has those characteristics (and also happens to be a little hefty), then more power to you.
119. JaDeGoLd - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:22 PM PT
PM;
Soooo...you're pretty satisfied with those foreign mail order brides catalogs?
120. PincherMartin - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:23 PM PT
One of the other benefits of not dating American women is that I never have to put up with a Sasquatch like Dark Violet
121. PincherMartin - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:24 PM PT
JadeGold
LOL
122. aldavis - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:48 PM PT
pincher
Who said she was hefty? Wow, you are really mean; a sasquatch!
123. PincherMartin - Feb. 5, 1999 - 7:51 PM PT
Actually, Sasquatch is, I have heard, fairly attractive (at least physically); it is her complete lack of a brain that repels.
124. Msivorytower - Feb. 5, 1999 - 8:16 PM PT
PincherMartin
I gather you are a princely specimen, and seem happy in your choices of mates.
The lovely thing about humans is that their tastes don't all run in the same direction, otherwise we'd all look rather alike, don't you think?
In any case, I've met men from many cultures who are attractive, and some who were repulsive. The subtlety of their minds, and the refinement of their interests, were the most distinctive characteristics distinguishing the two types.
One thing I will say about many American men I meet, it is the exceptional that have poetry in their souls.
125. arkymalarky - Feb. 5, 1999 - 8:54 PM PT
"But I find that American girls, in general of course, don't have the same charm, grace and strength of women from Europe and East Asia."
Of course you're showing yourself to be a paragon of charming American males.
126. CalGal - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:00 PM PT
Arky,
Well, Pincher's just making googoo eyes at Jade, our only Fraygrant Asian American, doncha know. (at least I *think* she's the only one.)
127. darkviolet - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:02 PM PT
Re: Message #123
I'm not stupid at all. I just don't speak your language.
128. darkviolet - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:05 PM PT
I don't agree with your lack of ethics, either.
129. arkymalarky - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:10 PM PT
You think, Cal? I'd about come to the conclusion that the guy was already married to a mirror.
130. CalGal - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:15 PM PT
Yes, Arky. Pincher has had the hots for Jade since he showed up. Haven't you noticed? He probably thought he was being subtle.
131. darkviolet - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:21 PM PT
PincherMartin is some kind of a military person. I think that's why he likes Jade but doesn't like me. Usually, in real life, this kind of asshole is strongly attracted to me.
132. CalGal - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:28 PM PT
We all have crosses to bear, DV.
133. darkviolet - Feb. 5, 1999 - 9:38 PM PT
Thanks, CalGal. That did make me laugh!
134. cruz0014 - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:03 AM PT
I'm with Wendy and her book on Female Modesty. Minnesota legislators had the wool pulled over their eyes. We're the only state in the union that protects transgenderism in the workplace. That includes public schools. Men can dress from head to toe in wigs, makeup, dresses and high heels. What's worse, although apparently heterosexual, they have turned the women's restroom into a unisex bathroom, and have permission to use the girls as well. I, for one, am incensed with this disrespect for womanhood.
135. darkviolet - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:09 AM PT
Are you into barging into the opposite gender's bathroom? I met a woman who did that at a rock concert in Vancouver.
136. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:37 AM PT
MsIvoryTower --
"I gather you are a princely specimen, and seem happy in your choices of mates."
Actually, I am a rather ordinary looking guy. Besides a deep cleft chin and a boyish grin, I have no other remarkable physical characteristics. It is still a source of amazement to me that I can talk any girl into going out with me, but thankfully it doesn't take too much talk.
"The lovely thing about humans is that their tastes don't all run in the same direction, otherwise we'd all look rather alike, don't you think?"
Well, I agree. I would like to hear from men who *like* American women. I want to know why they do. I want to compare notes.
"In any case, I've met men from many cultures who are attractive, and some who were repulsive. The subtlety of their minds, and the refinement of their interests, were the most distinctive characteristics distinguishing the two types."
Yes, agreed. But why do some cultures seem to attract some people more than others? Some guys, including many foreign men, seem to like American women (white women, anyway) almost exclusively. Why they do I don't know, but they do. Others, like myself, seem to prefer Asian women. Smart, sexy, strong Asian women. European women are a close second.
"One thing I will say about many American men I meet, it is the exceptional that have poetry in their souls."
This I don't believe. No American -- man or woman -- has anything poetic about them.
137. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:39 AM PT
Arkymalarky --
"Of course you're showing yourself to be a paragon of charming American males."
If you met me, you would find me utterly irresistable. You wouldn't be able to help yourself.
138. cruz0014 - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:40 AM PT
Response to darkviolet 135. No, it would never occur to me to enter a men's bathroom, but you perceptively bring up a common thread between the two events. Both are political. The transgendered person at our school could use one of two new "single stall" unisex bathrooms, but chooses to use the tiny "two-stalled" bathroom labeled "female faculty" just in order to press his political agenda. Women in large public facilities who DO barge in on the men are making the point that the women's facilities in the building are inadequate compared to the men's. Both are speech acts and political.
139. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:46 AM PT
CalGal --
"Well, Pincher's just making googoo eyes at Jade, our only Fraygrant Asian American, doncha know. (at least I *think* she's the only one.)"
I am shocked to hear JadeGold is Asian-American (although I should have guessed it from her name). If true, I am sure that she is one of those Asian-Americans who has nothing Asian about her except for her looks. She probably doesn't speak an Asian language, maybe never even been to Asia. In part she has been so thoroughly Americanized that she lost all of her charm, and probably through an American diet, some of her looks as well. Any Asian-American whose formative years have been spent in the states is not, I repeat, NOT an Asian, but a full-blooded American.
140. darkviolet - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:47 AM PT
PincherMartin -
"If you met me, you would find me utterly irresistable. You wouldn't be able to help yourself."
Look, you are insane and you were trying to correct *my* behavior?
141. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:49 AM PT
CalGal --
"Yes, Arky. Pincher has had the hots for Jade since he showed up. Haven't you noticed? He probably thought he was being subtle."
What are you talking about? JadeGold is my Bete Noire
142. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 1:50 AM PT
Oh shush girl, I'm trying to have fun. You were being ugly.
143. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 2:01 AM PT
I am incredibly shocked that JadeGold is of Asian ancestry. Her on-line personality is so thoroughly American.
144. CalGal - Feb. 6, 1999 - 2:05 AM PT
Pincher,
Hey, pal. I'm American. Therefore I am fat, unpleasant, and have no mystery. No poetry either.
So it is unlikely that I'd be making this up. I haven't the requisite subtlety.
145. Nuunuuana - Feb. 6, 1999 - 2:55 AM PT
We know.
146. Mrtoner - Feb. 6, 1999 - 5:33 AM PT
What an interesting age we live in! There are only two groups that remain fair game for all sorts of criticism, however generalized, rude or unfair.
These groups are "Americans" and white men. Both of these apparently
worldwide fall guy targets are often justifiably criticized, but I wonder exactly what it is that makes other nationalities, or other identifiable
racial/sexual groupings, off-limits for generic attack, whereas it's always hunting season for WMAs?
Is it just perceived economic power? If so, then there are many European nations (and, until quite recently, Asian as well) that should be subject to equal worldwide resentment. (Except for occasional canards against the hapless Germans, I see very little of this.)
Probably it's the fact that Americans perform so poorly, as a group, in languages, and because we often make terrible impressions as tourists. Maybe our insular and frequently inadequate educational system is the source of all the emnity?
Anyway, justified or unjustified, it's sure not much fun, being
a white male American these days. I guess I should issue a worldwide apology, although for what, exactly, I'm not certain.
147. Msivorytower - Feb. 6, 1999 - 6:03 AM PT
MrToner
"Anyway, justified or unjustified, it's sure not much fun, being a white male American these days"
Oh my. I think you must find a way to meet Mr. Martin. He seems to be having a grand ole time.
Actually, I'm grateful there are men whose taste run the opposite of our Asiaophile Mr.Martin, otherwise us poor American women would soon become extinct. Certainly our sex lives would be nonexistent.
148. ScottLoar - Feb. 6, 1999 - 6:13 AM PT
PincherMartin's assertion that "(a)ny Asia-American whose formative years have been spent in the states (sic) is not, I repeat, NOT (sic)an Asian, but a full-blooded American" is literally true as usually regards citizenship but blindingly false as regards attitudes and disposition. This assertion disregards the influence of the family, assumes that there are no cultural influences other than American, and is easily disproved by personal experience. Go visit Hawaii.
149. DanDillon - Feb. 6, 1999 - 8:50 AM PT
Mrtoner,
"'Americans' and white men" = "worldwide fall guy targets"
This ethnocentric claim rushes straight into the face of your argument and badly cripples it. Surely you need to get out and travel a bit more.
150. cllrdr - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:03 AM PT
That's *straight* white men, Mrtoner.
151. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:29 AM PT
American women are probably the world's worst dressers, but they're also true romantics. The last bit is pretty incredible, really, when one considers yr average American male.
152. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT
Message #146
Hi, lewisfein!
153. cllrdr - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:31 AM PT
French women dress impeccably.
154. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:41 AM PT
Agreed. Most Europeans dress well, the obvious exceptions being the Irish, British and Germans. My favorite dressers are the Antipodeans and Israelis. Worst dressed? The (white) Americans, naturally ... but the Singaporeans run a close second.
155. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:43 AM PT
Women elsewhere in the Americas appear to dress like wallpaper.
156. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:51 AM PT
"My favorite dressers are the Antipodeans and Israelis. "
A joke, I assume.
The most stylish women come from the following places:
Mali
Milan
Paris
Buenos Aires
Rio
Caracas
Hong Kong
Bombay
(In all cases, I'm talking about the socializing elites)
157. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:54 AM PT
I have met maybe two dozen women from Mali in my life, since I know someone's going to ask. They have each been absolutely striking, stunning even. And their clothes, jewellery and hairdos have all been amazingly elaborate and lavish.
158. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 9:58 AM PT
marjoribanks:
Virtually every Indian in the country where I live comes from Bombay. Their taste in clothes, I have to tell you, is doomed.
Another thing: Given that you've never visited the Antipodes, or appear to have ever met an Australasian, how the hell would you know whether I'm joking?
159. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
Australasian women dress in a fashion that's both comfortable and sexy. Like Nicole Kidman.
160. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
And there are American women and American women. Frankly (though I didn't marry one) I find many of the American women I know and meet very fine people, with all the best values. They (like all Americans) tend to the naive and provincial, but are open-minded and honest and not super-gossipy which is not a virtue shared by many of the "more stylish" foreigners.
161. Msivorytower - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
Well, I'm depressed.
Martin slams American women, in every sense of the word, and no other male offers a more flattering perspective?
Are we American women a dying breed? Gad.
162. Msivorytower - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:03 AM PT
Marj!
Thank you, parsimonious as those words are, they act as a balm to my wounded ego.
163. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:05 AM PT
Psocko,
It may be in the eye of the beholder and your eye has a beam in it.
I find Indian womens clothes (saris, ghagras, salvars) very beautiful. When worn with the usual elaborate care and the proper accoutrements by a beautiful and stylish Bombay-type socialite - I personally don't find anything particularly more attractive.
BTW, I've met lots of Aussies (particularly in the UK), the best I can say about them is that, um, they're very healthy.
164. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:12 AM PT
I've mentioned the fabulous Aishwarya Rai in another thread. Check her out here in a traditional Indian wedding outfit.
165. jkuzmak - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:12 AM PT
Women should certainly dress more modestly, except when attending Carnival :)
166. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:19 AM PT
ScottLoar --
"PincherMartin's assertion that "(a)ny Asia-American whose formative years have been spent in the states (sic) is not, I repeat, NOT (sic)an Asian, but a full-blooded American" is literally true as usually regards citizenship but blindingly false as regards attitudes and disposition. This assertion disregards the influence of the family, assumes that there are no cultural influences other than
American, and is easily disproved by personal experience. Go visit Hawaii."
Mr Loar, I lived in Hawaii for five years. It is a special place with its own culture that is sui generis: Part Pacific Islander, part Asian, part military, and part missionary. The Asians there are not quite American, yet distinctly not Asian.
The mix of races on those islands produces a stunningly beautiful person, BTW.
167. jkuzmak - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:24 AM PT
I recall seeing a documentary on Iceland, in which they claimed that the Icelandic women were among the world's most beautiful. They showed a couple of them. My recollection is that they appeared to be from a different planet. Pulchritudinon I believe.
168. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:27 AM PT
CalGal, MsIvoryTower --
Relax, you two. Judging from the intelligence of your posts, you both are definitely not the typical American woman, and so would fall outside this generalization I am making.
169. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:27 AM PT
The kind of "traditional" clothes you could expect to see at a ritzy Bombay wedding or party.
170. MrSocko - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:35 AM PT
Martin:
"[Hawaii] s a special place with its own culture that is sui generis: Part Pacific Islander, part Asian, part military, and part missionary. The Asians there are not quite American, yet distinctly not Asian."
Completely meaningless.
171. CoralReef - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:36 AM PT
You guys can take the stylish submissive types, I'll go with the romatics. One added feature of American women is they are far more likely than women from other countries to be able to give you help with C++!
Actually, Pincher's opinons don't surprise me in that American men and women BOTH often prefer Europeans and other non-Americans. The ironic aspect was him commenting on charm while displaying none of it himself.
172. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:36 AM PT
Some observations:
• I find PincherMartin terribly and quintessentially American, what with his overexoticisation of East Asian women and to a lesser extent European women;
• I assume that PM was joking, but there are lots of thin and cosmpolitan American women; plus, I think it's sort of convenient that the less cosmpolitan ones can be so easily bamboozled by the least urbanity and cosmoplitanism. Of course that may be a stereotype.
• I have only dated Americans, Brits, one Frenchwoman and one Sino-Dane (which may have been Oedipal);
• there are some stunningly beautiful subcon women, as Marzipranks proves in Message #169, but I've never cared for that Pakistani model currently in vogue. I've also never much cared for East Asian women. As in architecture as in women, I have a partiality for East Asians, which given that I'm something of a hyper-Eurasiatic is unsurprising.
• Marzipranks is absolutely spot-on about the dressing of women from Hong Kong, France (at least Paris) and Argentina (which teems with gorgeous and elegantly slim women), but exaggerated about Milanese. Frankly, I find Italian women (from Italy, that is) overprimped and gauded. But the three best dressed women I have ever seen in person were an Indonesian from Hong Kong (half Chinese, born in Japan with no knowledge of Indonesia); a Jewish New Yorker who I might add is quite thin; and a German from Hamburg.
• Nicole Kidman is currently among the most (physically) desirable women alive.
• the worst looking women, because overmade up or vulgarly dressed, that I've seen are Levantines and Middle Easterners: Greeks, Turks, Lebanese, and particularly Iranians (especially the urban specimen found in NY, London, Paris and Washington).
• Of course none comes close to Katie Haswell, the former newsreader for Britain's ITN news
173. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:38 AM PT
ERRATA (Message #172)
As in architecture as in women, I have a partiality for EURASIANS....
174. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:45 AM PT
I actually have a soft spot for Brits as well, partcularly the coarser suburban and urban types Don't ask me why, but I find their accents and brazen attitudes quite alluring. London teems with women I find exciting.
175. marjoribanks - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:47 AM PT
Yes, and Martin is _ridiculously_ American, what with this going on and on about "Asian" women. It appears to be all the vogue with American men nowadays.
176. Msivorytower - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:49 AM PT
CR reMessage #171
"The ironic aspect was him commenting on charm while displaying none of it himself."
Well, of course, this was precisely the point of my earlier laments. Thank you for stating the obvious.
But, really, I think most American women (regardless of ethnicity) prefer American men. I've never quite heard the women here wax the poetic over foreign men the way both the American and international men do in the Fray.
177. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 10:54 AM PT
sOcko --
If Mr Loar has been to Hawaii, he will understand my meaningless comments.
178. CoralReef - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:00 AM PT
You're welcome, MsIT. Stating the obvious is my specialty.
179. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:04 AM PT
PseudoErasmus --
"• I find PincherMartin terribly and quintessentially American, what with his overexoticisation of East Asian women and to a lesser extent European women;"
While that may be true (I am attracted to exotic women; the more exotic the better), it doesn't necessarily mean that what I said about American women is not also true.
"• I assume that PM was joking, but there are lots of thin and cosmpolitan American women; plus, I think it's sort of convenient that the less cosmpolitan ones can be so easily bamboozled by the least urbanity and cosmoplitanism. Of course that may be a stereotype."
PE, there are probably over a hundred and thirty million American women, so of course some of them are thin and some of them are cosmopolitan, but, in general, American women are much much MUCH fatter than their counterparts from anywhere else, and also a good deal more provincial. Since you have said both things yourself at one time or another, I am not sure why you are changing your mind at this particular time.
180. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:06 AM PT
CoralReef --
"You guys can take the stylish submissive types, I'll go with the romatics."
As I pointed out earlier, neither Asian women (with the exception of the Japanese) nor European women are submissive.
181. TheDiva - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:10 AM PT
How you like that, Ms.? We're fat AND provincial. Hot diggity!
182. SharonSchroeder - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:13 AM PT
Diva, don't that just beat all....
183. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:14 AM PT
Two absolutely minimal negative requirements for an attractive woman:
(1) The woman must absolutely not be an economist;
(2) She cannot be a Republican, or a Tory, or some other kind of conservative. This isn't political. Before my current radical centrist days, I have been everything from near-socialist to definitely right-wing. Yet I've always thought that there's just something terribly unattractive about a woman who could say of the poor, "you have to be cruel to be kind".
184. SharonSchroeder - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:15 AM PT
Asian women aren't submissive???? I have known several women from Korea and the Phillipines and they were very submissive... which is why their american husbands married them and brought them home. I had the pleasure of americanizing several of them and they became much less submissive. :-)
185. TheDiva - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:16 AM PT
Hot diggity! We're in the runnin'!
186. arkymalarky - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:18 AM PT
I find men of whatever ethnicity or combination either goodlooking or not. The same goes for women. I thought the woman Marj linked was beautiful, as was the Korean model someone linked the other day. There are many beautiful American women as well. What I don't find attractive is the look of the most popular models, male and female.
It's interesting that the conversation has evolved from modesty and expectations of American women to what constitutes feminine attractiveness in the eye of the heterosexual male.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
187. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:18 AM PT
Message #179
"...in general, American women are much much MUCH fatter than their counterparts from anywhere else, and also a good deal more provincial. Since you have said both things yourself at one time or another, I am not sure why you are changing your mind at this particular time."
You've become positively Sockoid in your inferential skills. Who has changed his mind? I acknowledge not only are Americans, men and women, disproportionately provincial (for understandable reasons), but that they are compared with other nationals billowingly fat, conscipicuous abroad from all corners of the world.
But in my experience the provincialism and the obesity are mitigated in the more urban and urbane elements of the American upper middle classes, especially of the Northeast (which is really the only part of America I know).
188. SharonSchroeder - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:18 AM PT
Damn... I'm more attractive than I thought. I meet both of the above requirements. I am definetely not an economist (hell, I can barely balance my checkbook) and I am certainly not republican.
189. Msivorytower - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:19 AM PT
"(1) The woman must absolutely not be an economist;"
Gasp!
Oh man! This is not a good day for my tortured soul.
Diva. It seems there is no hope for me at all.
I am an American: therefore I must be fat, ugly provincial AND lacking any charm.
I am an economist.
I think I'll go lay down and apply cold compresses to my forehead.
Smelling salts. Smelling salts might help too.
Do you have any?
190. TheDiva - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:19 AM PT
Sharon
Yeah! Poor PE, too bad you and I are already taken! (heh heh)
191. SharonSchroeder - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:21 AM PT
Diva, his loss!
Poor MsIT... Here darling, lie down a spell....
192. TheDiva - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:21 AM PT
Oh, Missy
Forget these cruel men, just forget them. (waving smelling salts...applying cold cloth....)
You have depth, beauty, intelligence, AND curves. Only the most highly-evolved man deserves you.
(pat pat pat)
193. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:21 AM PT
CoralReef -- Yes, my remarks here were not meant to charm, but to provoke. I really expected a better showing from American women and those who love American women. Some of the sensitive feelings I see now are probably because I hit too close to home with some of my comments. There are many reasons why men could be attracted to American women -- American women are romantics (as you said) and thus they believe in love; they are open in manner and forthright in their opinions(something that can't be said of Asian women, who are some of the most Machiavellian women I have ever met). I am sure that there are many other reasons American girls are attractive incuding common interests (such as your C++ example)
194. SharonSchroeder - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
Only real men can handle american women.
195. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
"But in my experience the provincialism and the obesity are mitigated in the more urban and urbane elements of the American upper middle classes, especially of the Northeast (which is really the only part of America I know)."
That perception is probably due to the higher percentage of foreigners and recently immigrated that are found in urban areas.
196. Msivorytower - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
Pincher
Let me take this opportunity to clear one thing up.
You are an ass. An obtuse ass.
That is all.
197. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:25 AM PT
Hell, who in New York is an American citizen anymore? Half the city must be one generation or less from another country.
Los Angeles and San Francisco are not much different.
198. TheDiva - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
Anyway, how insane to generalize about American women. A woman from Newark, NJ, is a very different specimen from a woman from, say, Montclair, NJ - towns 5 miles apart. Throw ethnicity, race, etc. into the mix....
199. PincherMartin - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
Sharon Schroder --
"Only real men can handle american women."
You mean only those guys who can bench 350? Well, I am a little short; I'll keep working on it.
200. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 6, 1999 - 11:27 AM PT
But no one has expressed a particular fondness for American women as a class in the way you have expressed a particular fondness for East Asians and Europeans as a class. American women are just there; one dates them when one goes to university in America. Really, Europeans and Asians aren't exotic to me at all. They're nothing special.