3885. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 4:54 PM PT
Techies,
You are kidding me, right?
About the new Fray?
Please tell me I'm missing something. Please tell me that it doesn't take two minutes for a post to show up. Please tell me that I don't have to enter my name every time. Please tell me I went to the wrong place. I will be DELIGHTED to hear that I've misunderstood.
3886. judithathome - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:11 PM PT
TechGuys:
I'd like to know if the betaFray will require posters to pay before posting. If the new sense of community is to be had for free, I'd like my $20 back, please.....
3887. PincherMartin - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:13 PM PT
Techies --
I second CG's remarks in Message #3885
3888. judithathome - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:17 PM PT
PM, Cal, whoever....
Seeing the *allenq* take over every thread on the All Threads page looks ominous, huh?
If everyone decamps in the middle of the night, let me know...
3889. judithathome - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:23 PM PT
Actually, ominous isn't the right word...it really only looks like when I post the last message on several threads and no one answers for awhile. :-)
I can't get the betaFray to come in properly, if that is of any interest to the tech people. I keep getting connection reset errors. So it is rather difficult for me to TRY the new Fray. Are you guys trying to tell me something?
3890. AzureNW - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:23 PM PT
So the new forum will display your employer's address if you post from work. That's handy.
3891. PincherMartin - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:25 PM PT
Judithathome --
I'm not even sure how it works and where I'm suppose to go for technical support. What I thought was the thread for technical support didn't have a place to post.
3892. AzureNW - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:25 PM PT
Just be sure not to post anything you don't want associated with your employer.
3893. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:26 PM PT
And it's not like you gave us HTML or anything. You TOOK AWAY HTML--although this technically means all we have to do is copy a URL in, it is actually a step back.
We've been asking for *more* maneuverability, you give us less.
No offense, but if we *wanted* to post on the various articles, we would. If we *wanted* the ability to proliferate threads, we would have asked for it.
You have gone BACKWARDS. Why the time lag before posting? Why put our host address there? You don't think that's a bit of an invasion?
Why make us put in our name everytime--or any name we like--oh, that will be fun. Apparently you've never heard of multiples? Oh--we'll be able to know who it is just by comparing HOST IDs.
It is *less* elegant than the current Fray. Uglier. Too big. And you can't read it easily.
So you have managed to give us NOTHING we ask for and TAKE AWAY everything we like!!
This is not a rework of the Fray. It is a completely different forum, with a completely different purpose.
I realize that the Fray community is but a teeny tiny percentage of overall slate readership, but you might have mentioned you were going to fuck us completely.
3894. PincherMartin - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:34 PM PT
I agree with CG's and Azure's comments.
I think someone in Slate doesn't like this Fray community, and is proceeding to fuck us royally.
Uglier
Fewer functions
Slower
Congratulations. Is this what you've been working on all year?
3895. allaneq - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:40 PM PT
Message #3889 Judith - can you open http://bbs.slate.com/bbs/slate-rdm1/index.asp at all?
3896. judithathome - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:42 PM PT
So how long do we have before the plug is pulled and you Kevork this Fray?
And I was serious about the $20. ARE you requiring a fee to post?
3897. judithathome - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:45 PM PT
allaneq:
I finally got in but it only loaded half way. Sorry if I seem snippy but I'm set in my ways...ways it took me forever to master.
3898. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:49 PM PT
Oh, I forgot. We can't see all the posts at once. Not even ten at a time, or 20 at a time, or 3 or 4 at a time. Nope.
ONE AT A TIME.
You people must be kidding. Please. This is a joke. Or tell me I've missed the "power user" plug.
3899. allaneq - Aug. 9, 1999 - 6:00 PM PT
Message #3897 Judith - what kind of error did you get? The Fray sits on a completely different server, so it shouldn't be a connection reset issue.
Thanks,
Wes
3900. Slackjaw - Aug. 9, 1999 - 6:03 PM PT
Tack my name onto CalGal's comments. This is not a good development at all. The speed and imposed thread structure are the worst.
Can't we just coopt some corner of table talk? It can be run just like the fray and you won't get lost in all the different topics, unlike the current table talk.
3901. glendajean - Aug. 9, 1999 - 6:56 PM PT
I looked at the beta fray and thought, "this is a joke." Sad that it isn't.
If this is the end of fraying, at least it will make easier the decision to renew or not in September.
3902. Raskolnikov - Aug. 9, 1999 - 7:22 PM PT
My main gripe about the current Fray is that you can't isolate a topic. If Movies gets taken over with Blair Witch mania, anyone who wants to discuss movies has to risk accidentally reading spoilers. You have to read through a dozen comments on mortgage interest deductions in the Urban Transit thread. I do like that the new Fray allows a more threaded structure, but the time delay in reading posts, the constant refreshing, and the ability to only read one post at a time is a killer.
I have seen this general thread structure used many times before. It looks an awful lot like the freeware bulletin boards that are all over the net. These only work well on a very fast server, or in an area with infrequent posts.
How long will posts stay? When will you prune threads? An infrequently pruned thread will intimidate people with the number of posts, and a too frequently pruned thread will kill a topic that before a key participant may be able to read it.
I do think that the current Fray, and the Table Talk model, can be improved upon, but this looks like it will drive users away.
3903. 109109 - Aug. 9, 1999 - 7:24 PM PT
glenda
Two points.
One, this rag sucks. They know it. They are merely doing this in childish spite because, when they asked me to answer a questionnaire, I told them (Salon is actually a much better mag).
Second, see you in Table Talk when this dump gets destroyed.
3904. LadyChaos - Aug. 9, 1999 - 8:06 PM PT
Dear Wes Miller,
The new format sucks. Kiss my ass and count me out.
For all its flaws, one of the great things about the old Fray format is that people are able to discuss topics freely, and the linearity of the format allows participants to contribute more intelligently. You never know, but it could one day happen that a Fraygrant could solve some important problem in the world, and the Fray will have been the catalyst. (I know, maybe Boomer will manage to privatize the State of California.)
The new format is just too damn confusing, and the format is clearly aimed at stifling discussion.
No thanks. I can't even imagine still being here after that format goes full-time.
3905. JJBiener - Aug. 9, 1999 - 8:21 PM PT
Tech Guys - I just checked out the Beta Fray. I guess my main question is WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
I develop software for a living and have done so for almost 20 years. I understand that when you need to know the business case for what you are doing you go to management for that. However, when you are collecting requirements for the user interface and the operational details, you go to the users. You know, the people who are going to be using the software on a regular basis. CalGal nailed it. You have taken away the things that make the Fray unique and interesting and made the rest awkward and cumbersome. I guess it is fortunate that you don't work for me or you would be busy emailing resumes and calling headhunters.
If you want to know how the Fray should operate, ASK US! Read the threads in the current Fray and see how we interact. Recognize the strong points of the current system and keep them while improving things like speed and flexibility. Don't handcuff us to Slate articles. In case you haven't noticed, a fair percentage of our conversations have nothing to do with the articles. I recently hosted a Fray mystery whose only connection to Slate was that I made Kinsley the victim.
I realize this is your playground, and you can tear out the swingset and put up monkey bars if you wish. But a playground isn't much good if no one comes to play. Please reconsider your actions. What you propose could easily be the death of the Fray as we know it.
3906. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 9, 1999 - 8:34 PM PT
Hmmm, interesting development.
I tried the new format but, like others, find it lacking. I suppose it would work better if at least we could read a series of posts in the thread topic linked to the article. As it currently stands, how does conversation flow between posters? Or is the object to only direct all commentary toward the article itself? If so, this seems likely to considerably shorten all posts, since the articles posted in Slate have never generated much commentary by themselves. It is the intereaction of posters that sustains conversations here.
So I'd suggest you eliminate the fray altogether, given what would be left of it after the move to this new format. Just indicate that email can be directly (and now quite easily) sent to Slate commenting on articles. That would basically do the trick.
3907. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 8:46 PM PT
JJ,
My guess? They don't care about the 100 or so Fraygrants. They probably polled all their readers, who probably said they wanted a way to write letters to the writers and have the joy of seeing their letters linked to the articles. The readers probably bitched about the mean nasty rotten Fray and its insularity (guilty as charged, but welcome to life in an online community).
This is Slate's attempt to control the forum. It is, in short, a punishment. We have been a bad forum, and Slate is punishing us for scaring away the timid readers.
They *want* to drive the regular Fraygrants away and allow the regular readers a way to post their thoughts on the rather tepid articles. They are expecting it to be much slower, since they have said they will link in posts to articles. Clearly not possible to monitor everything if the forum were moving at its normal clip.
As a nice to have, the new format will be far easier to support since it's incredibly simplistic, backlevel, and probably has a far less complicated database.
So this is what we get for being a baaaaad forum. And you know what? That's their right and privilege. They won't like what they get, though. Because a community *will* form anyway, if the forum is to be used at all. And it will be nasty and tough and contentious. Timid readers will still be terrified. Such is life in online forums.
It just won't be *this* community.
I realize they don't care. They should, though, because this community may be tough and contentious, but it's pretty damn smart. And they're going to keep all the stuff they are trying to lose, and lose all the stuff they'd rather keep. And be the laughingstock of the online zine community to boot for using such backlevel technology.
3908. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 8:55 PM PT
In case I sound rabid--oh, wait. I *am* rabid. Never mind.
Oh, well. I'll still support my contention. From the header on the new abortion:
"What is the new Fray? In its full incarnation, we hope it will transform our reader feedback--*now primarily Email to the Editors*--into focused, yet public discussion. " (emphasis mine)
Right. We were bad. We weren't their readers. Their readers were the people who write Letters to the Editor.
Quite true. As a result, those are the people they want to reward. Not a single mention of the old Fray in their writeup. That's gone.
You all think you might have MENTIONED this the whole time you've been spewing bullshit about the changes that were coming?
3909. Slackjaw - Aug. 9, 1999 - 11:07 PM PT
Tech crew: re. Fray beta
* it must be made possible to see more posts at once in a given thread. 20 at minimum, preferably 50 or even 100.
* messages must load immediately once posted. None of this two minutes garbage.
* you must add a way to get to all topics from any post in any thread. Presently you have to go to from your post to the thread list in the topic, and then go to the topic list.
If you are confused about why people are saying it appears you want to stifle the back and forth we now have, to break up the existing fray community, the first two points above are surely a start.
Then, add the things that should've been added to the old fray: a list of all topics at the bottom of every page, and HTML formatting.
3910. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 11:31 PM PT
Well. If you're going to be *rational* about it....
You also *must* remove the Host posting.
Remove the requirement to enter your name each time. Anyone who wants to post should have to have a login name which is autofilled.
Stop copying the entire post replied to, especially with those idiotic caret marks.
Actually, I think the entire "Reply" thing is nonsense anyway and extremely unintuitive.
You *must* not require people to click three times just to post. In fact, why not have a window at the bottom of the screen? Why are you *increasing* the amount of hits it takes to post?
Heavens, I'm getting rabid again.
3911. stostosto - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:52 AM PT
CalGal is right.
This is not done for us existing Fraygrants. Note that that is how we are addressed: *existing* Fraygrants - supposedly as opposed to masses of non-existing ones who have been turned off by the strange way this forum works.
I think basically that Slate's problem is that it is losing money. And how are you going to make money out of a reader's forum with a limited number of participants (CalGal says 100)? Well, nobody knows.
But then, nobody as yet has figured out how to make money out of on-line magazines generally.
My guess is that Slate is under pressure to be seen to *do* something about it. The 'forming a community' idea sounds good and it is good. But I doubt that the new Fray will do that. The present Fray, for all its shortcomings, does. But it doesn't make money.
3912. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:38 AM PT
There may indeed be 100+ *active* Fraygrants. But Irv has said that there are many more who follow the discussions. I hope that they will come out and give their views. I see that two of them have done just that in the beta Fray.
I have many problems with the new concept. We can all agree that the technology is clearly sub-standard. I don't like that discussions will be tied exclusively to Slate articles. This is an American forum and Slate is an American magazine. But quite a few of us are based abroad. I do read the Slate articles but there are many of them I don't understand at all because they refer to things I haven't a clue about and cannot get any clues about either (e.g. American talk shows).
So, we will lose the ability to formulate our own subjects. As spudboy notes it will do away with the fine hosted threads such as his. We will not be able to launch something similar to the Fray Election, which, while it lasted, must have been the most hilarious place on the Net.
Talking about the Net, one assumes that this story will soon start to circulate there,
"Slate moves to kill arguably best free discussion forum on the Net."
"Microsoft owned Slate magazine replaces current discussion forum with antiquated BBS system."
"Slate violates privacy by publishing host identity of discussion participants."
3913. spudboy - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:59 AM PT
My two cents' (or is that twenty bucks'?) worth:
I am a Slate reader. Have been a Slate reader from the start. I was drawn into the Fray initially by checking out the discussions related to Slate articles. And I've tried to discuss the topics of (and link to) numerous Slate articles.
I read Slate for one primary reason: It's literate. I will say that the quality of articles in Slate over the past year and a half has become increasingly spotty. Krugman and Kinsley are always treats to read, but after that, there's been a remarkable rise in hackery, and I think the selection has been generally stodgy and frequently irrelevant.
But the Fray has been special, and for one standout reason: It has been great reading. The quality of minds it has attracted here is astonishing, and to watch them hold forth and debate ideas and wrangle endlessly has been incredibly informative and fun. Even if you didn't take part, the Fray was a pleasure to read. I read it for about four months myself before I actually waded in for the first time. I'll tell you what: It has compelled me back to Slate far more consistently than the contents of the magazine itself have.
Now? It's all gone. There won't be any great reading under this format. No stellar debates. Nothing to draw me or the people who've made up this community. It'll just be like every other BBS on the Net. Wieldy, unpleasant to read, difficult to navigate. It will, in a word, suck. I for one will have far better things to do with my time than visit Slate, at least at the rate I once did.
Too bad. It's been a great ride. Thanks to everyone. See you in Table Talk, I guess.
3914. stostosto - Aug. 10, 1999 - 3:23 AM PT
pelle
"Slate moves to kill arguably best free discussion forum on the Net."
The best, yes, without a shred of doubt. But free? No. I paid $20 to participate - whereas subscription to the rest of Slate is free after an interval of about a year where they experimented with paid subscription - remember?
They dropped the paid subscription model, presumably because the readership tumbled and hence advertising revenue. Only for some reason they still required payment for access to the Fray - which, perversely, is akin to paying for providing content.
That was actually OK by me, since I enjoy fraying so much, and I figured that the pricing policy was one of 'let those pay who are willing to pay'. And there is a strong lock-in effect on such network communities, sometimes called 'increasing returns to scale' which is the principle that the value of a given network increases exponentially with the size and intensity of participation.
Thus, when one is created, would-be competing networks (communities) have virtually no hope of making it. Not because of lack of techical acumen, but simply due to the fact that no one goes where no one is. The more, the merrier - the more.
Microsoft, needless to say, knows this mechanism inside out, since its success is built on it. The more PCs, the more MS-DOS, the bigger the supply of PC based software, the more PCs.
At some point, the potential for further network participation is exhausted, of course. Apparently, Slate has decided that for the present Fray that point lies well below the commercially viable. Even with paid subscription. ($20x100=$2,000 a year hardly qualifies as such - to say nothing of turning MS style profits).
In short: We are being closed down because we are deemed unprofitable.
3915. stostosto - Aug. 10, 1999 - 3:35 AM PT
pelle
" This is an American forum and Slate is an American magazine."
Yes. I've tried finding European forums of this kind but haven't had any success. I wrote The Economist website suggesting they made one on the Fray model, since I figure their readership is comparable in intellectual capacity and leanings *plus* much more international (read European).
Recently you mentioned that you subscribe to The E, which simply confirms this perception.
I got a polite answer along the lines of 'thank you, we try our best to make a good web site and will always be willing to consider improvements'.
Perhaps we should raise a storm?
3916. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 4:38 AM PT
stostosto
I agree. I'm an E junkie, and have recently developed a habit of reading it while I walk to work. (If I stop posting one day, look for me in the pedestrian obits).
If Slate proceeds with their plan to eliminate the Fray, I'll join you in a campaign to get the E to start one.
3917. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 4:51 AM PT
I will not post to the re-formatted Fray primarily because I will not post to a bulletin board that lists my ISP. Though table talk requires users to provide an e-mail address, participants can use a Netscape or Hotmail address and not divulge their "home address" as a matter of course.
3918. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 4:54 AM PT
I suppose Cal is right, and the purpose of the change is not to improve the Fray for current users, but to create a new group of users who don't intereact with each other as much. It looks like theyu want a format that is primarily "letter to the editor" in nature and not back-and-forth between readers.
3919. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 5:26 AM PT
Just a note on my use of 'free' in 'free discussion forum. I meant free in the intellectual sense. Self-governing might have been a better word. TableTalk is also free in that sense (and in the other one too), but I like our kind of moderated freedom better.
I have looked into TT a couple of times. I don't like it. There are some very rude guys around, not witty rude but vulgar, stupid rude, and the level of discussion is generally inferior to here. It is unwieldy too, with far too many sub-threads.
It must have been two or three months ago that I suggested in this thread that we should get together and write up a user specification for an improved Fray. There was no response and I didn't want to come across as pushy so I dropped it. I wish now I hadn't. I should have come up with a draft for comments instead.
3920. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:04 AM PT
pellenilsson
I would have been happy to contribute to such a document had I received any indication from Slate that they would welcome it. I don't see any indication that they care about us.
Rather than TT, which is inhabited by Cro-magnons, does anyone have an opinion on co-opting a corner of Suite101?
3921. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:16 AM PT
FTC
Can you provide a link?
Re your question in Suggestions. I have certainly not been approach and I think you can safely assume that nobody has. We would have known.
3922. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:18 AM PT
FTC:
What is Suite 101 and while we're at it, what is azures NDN?
Wes or Allaneq or Techies or the Finance Manager of Slate:
Why has no one answered my question about paying to post? I was one of the Charter Subscribers to Slate magazine before I ever looked at the Fray. I have shown the utmost stupidity by paying you an additional $20 ahead of my subscription running out based strictly on the Fray and my wish to continue posting to what I now think of as the ALPHA FRAY.
I am less than impressed with BetaFray. I write letters to the editor all the time, in several publications so it is no improvement to me that my letters will appear in Slate: they already HAVE. I certainly don't wish to pay to post letters to the editor.
I am requesting that you refund my money because I feel you took it under false pretenses.
You are going to boost the readership of an online magazine by making the new "improvements" but I think that online magazine will be Salon.
3923. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:36 AM PT
egads, the BetaFray sucks.
If they implement it, I'm Italian history.
I'm sure the loss of my 20 bucks won't hurt Slate.
3924. arkymalarky - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:38 AM PT
I keep imagining the tech people popping bottles of bubbly behind that firewall, trying to hold back giggles.
3925. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:40 AM PT
Arky
yes, and they'll probably let us go on like this for days before they actually respond (except for my darling Techboy).
3926. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:40 AM PT
arky:
I'm sure it's Cold Duck....pink Cold Duck.
3927. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:46 AM PT
mad dog 2020
ripple
boone's farm strawberry hill
3928. msgreer - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:50 AM PT
if all of us who have paid slate $20 for the honor to post pool our resources perhaps we can set up our own "fray".
i am with diva. this beta format sucks.
3929. LadyChaos - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:55 AM PT
Suite 101 is pretty good, but still not as linearly oriented as the current Fray.
3930. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:56 AM PT
"does anyone have an opinion on co-opting a corner of Suite101?"
Yes, I'd rather join TableTalk, at least the people can handle a little vigorous debate. Bunch of wimps over at 101, and NOT very intellectually stimulating to boot.
3931. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:57 AM PT
Ahahahaha, that was a pretty good cross post LadyC!
3932. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:01 AM PT
You know, someone from the tech team ought to get his or her ass in here to provide feedback to us. Hell, the guy in charge ought to be in here.
But it won't happen, it's the same old, same old.
3933. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:10 AM PT
okay, I'll stop bitching and offer constructive suggestions.
1. Minor changes to the existing GUI should be all that is necessary. Add a complete thread listing on the left side of each thread, so we can jump from thread to thread without having to go out to the main listing each time.
2. Get rid of that incredibly annoying bunch of links at the bottom of the page under the 'post this message' section.
3. For God's sake, do NOT, DO NOT display a user's domain host. Are you people CRAZY? Security, privacy.....enough said.
4. Fix the frickin' software bugs that have been plaguing this forum for months now.
5. The next time you decide to debut some 'improvement', at least don't do it on *my birthday*. What a way to start my day. Sheesh.
3934. arkymalarky - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:11 AM PT
Aw, Happy Birthday, Diva. I knew it was right around this time, but didn't know the exact day.
3935. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:14 AM PT
Thank you. This really kinda puts a damper on things, you know?
I've made some very, very close friends here, met interesting and fascinating people the likes of whom I'd probably not have known otherwise, learned so much, that I hate to see it threatened.
Strange, to feel so emotional about something that only exists, for all practical purposes, on a computer monitor.
3936. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:19 AM PT
Here is a really nice GUI for a BBS.
I'm not posting to that Beta Fray anymore.
and ATTENTION TECHIES.
PLEASE delete the post I made in the beta. I don't want my domain name shown. Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
3937. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:25 AM PT
Suite 101
A few Fraygrants have posted there on occasion, some extensively. I'll refrain from naming names, and let participants “out” themselves.
Advantages:
• A format similar to Fray in that several posts can be seen simultaneously
• Much better support for HTML, including tables
Disadvantages
• Less activity (although we could solve that)
• Email address is available (although I believe you can use a hotmail or other anonymous source)
Ideally, we would talk the owners of Suite 101 into forming a category for displaced Fraygrants, and then eventually we would post on their regularly organized threads.
3938. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:26 AM PT
Diva
And St. Bernadette too!
(Healing powers would be nice right about now)
And
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you, Diva
Happy birthday to you.
(It is that big decade one isn't it? Hahahaha)
3939. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:29 AM PT
D I V A ! ! !
H A P P Y
B I R T H D A Y ! ! !
3940. glendajean - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:29 AM PT
Diva -- maybe this was a sociological experiment and for lack of funding or end of the study, they're shutting it all down. (g)
I always find a bit of disconnect when I think about the fray and the act of participating in an on-line community.
And now it looks like it will end. I wish they would give us a date so that we can hurry through all our steps of dealing with it (anger, denial, sentimental goodbyes, etc,) so we can get right to vicious and cynical humor, and find a new place to light.
And, dear Diva, I always thought I would visit a jazz club with you someday. (Is the fog and airplane propeller turning, ala end of Casablanca?).
3941. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:29 AM PT
thank you, yes it is the big 4-0.
I say we pray to St. Jude, patron of lost causes.
3942. glendajean - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:29 AM PT
Oh, and H A P P Y B' D A Y!!, Miss DIVA.
3943. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:30 AM PT
glenda
*sniffle*
we'll always have the Music thread.....and don't rule out the jazz club thang, honey, there's always Blues Alley.
3944. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:31 AM PT
oops.....cp
thank you, Glenda.
3945. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
btw, Gracie bought me the soundtrack from 'Round Midnight' for my bday, and right now I'm listening to the lovely Lonette singing 'How Long Has This Been Going On'.
3946. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:33 AM PT
Deev
You don't look it.
Say, I know. You secretly got married 10 years ago, and then saved the pictures till now.
That's it, isn't it.
3947. glendajean - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:38 AM PT
Diva -- appropriate song for the day after beta Fray is introduced.
3948. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:39 AM PT
FTC
Nope, those pictures were really taken in January, and I've even got bona fide Fray witnesses to prove it.
Thanks for the bday wishes.
3949. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:41 AM PT
Diva:
I left your birthday greeting at the Corner but you deserve more than one; HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Besides, the one at the corner was sort of glum so how about two of my faves from birthday quotes (one of which is mine):
Our birthdays are but feathers on the wings of time
and
Beauty knows no age nor happiness the hour.
3950. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:41 AM PT
Judith
Yes, I saw that, and thanks again.
3951. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:46 AM PT
Incidentally, is it only me that wonders if they put the Host id on there temporarily to stop us from posting in the Beta Fray?
The techies have said that they'd only monitor that forum "aggressively" and they ensured that we wouldn't post there. Probably so any newbies looking around wouldn't see all our aggravation.
3952. glendajean - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:46 AM PT
I think we ought to give this Wes Whatever guy some credit. Think bout the problem.
How do you get rid of a whole set of people in the quickest, easiest way while maintaining an upbeat message and talk about a new and improved product? I've re-read his post on introducing the beta fray and I think he was quite efficient in telling us all to get lost without breaking a sweat.
3953. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:47 AM PT
GJ--Oh, exactly. Also, as I posted a while back, read the intro. What is their definition of the new Fray? An extension of letters to the editor.
No mention of their existing Fray.
3954. glendajean - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:48 AM PT
Cal -- read my post in beta fray diary.
3955. phillipdavid - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:48 AM PT
I am reading about the new beta fray, but I don't know where it is.
What I read is very disheartening, but I would like to check it out for myself if anybody can help me do so.
I have posted in Suite 101. While not as active as the Fray, I have found that people there are hungry for discussion and welcome debate.
3956. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:52 AM PT
Well, I think we should do as someone, pelle or stostosto, suggested and out them in a public way. Tell the world about their shabby treatment.
They obviously don't care, anyhow....what are they going to do? Dissolve the Fray? Oh, the irony....
Azure had this thing pegged months ago; she warned us we were being phased out. I wonder how long before Slate bites the dust, too...
3957. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:52 AM PT
Phillip--there's a link in every thread, silly guy. (g)
Here
3958. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:11 AM PT
Well, I, for one, am not posting my address for everyone to see. This is not paranoia, it is reality.
This *new* Fray is an exact copy of the set up at Arianna Huffingtons site tho one would hope it has fewer droolers post on it. They show or allow ones address to be known and I ticked off someone over there who sent me the entire Starr Report via e-mail. I had to call my provider and get them to stop the downloading.
I can see this will cause some problems for a good many posters but not for me, I promise. I don't care for junk mail in my regular mailbox and I feel the same about my eletronic one.
3959. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:16 AM PT
Will the last one out please turn off the lights?
3960. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:19 AM PT
Yes, and bring our flag?
3961. jonesatlaw - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:23 AM PT
Before I spent much time on the Fray, I regularly read a BBS on college football, a favorite subject of mine. I burned out on the BBS because it was so difficult to carry on any dialouge on the subject. It usually degenerated into electronic grafitti. I realize that the Fray was not always polite, or enlightened, and sometime did degenerate into personal attacks; but that was not its usual state. BBS tend to have people taking over or past one another. The new Fray does nothing to address this. The old Fray was as interactive as a chat room with substance more akin to what BBS aspire to.
3962. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:33 AM PT
Happy birthday Diva!
I looked in at Suite101. It is certainly a much better lay-out than TT.
Subject to agreement with the managment on having a new heading in the table of contents (FrayRefuge?) we could, as far as I understand move the Fray lock, stock and barrel with all the threads we have now. We could create something called Information where we can explain to the other Suiters who we are and bid them welcome to the Fray where the going is a bit tougher at times but also funnier.
We would have to get somebody (read Irving) onto the staff so that we can create and delete threads.
3963. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:37 AM PT
Thank you, Pelle.
3964. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:08 AM PT
it seems an incredibly unfortunate coincidence that irv was struck by computer disaster at exactly the point that slate unwrapped this ghastly beta fray. there's no question that the new format is entirely unconducive to any flow of thought or conversation. I don't know if it's cheaper or easier to organize--presumably it's an effort to force posters to react to slate instead of each other. i would say it's the end of any real kind of intellectual exchange here. i'm depressed.
3965. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:12 AM PT
tmachine
So are you saying you don't believe Microsoft has the capability of inducing power surges wherever it wants to? :)
3966. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
CalGal
“Incidentally, is it only me that wonders if they put the Host id on there temporarily to stop us from posting in the Beta Fray?”
Oh, this is just paranoid. Let's talk about whether Slate disabled Irv's computer at a highly curious time. And whether someone is in deep doo-doo for failing to take out his café.
But still…what possible reason is there to include the host ID?
3967. Techboy - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:20 AM PT
Fraygrants--
Thanks for your input regarding the new Fray. We are reading your comments and considering your complaints. We realize that the new Fray interface is quite a bit different from the current one, but it is a lot more robust. It is a proven its strength and is supposed to be free of the ODBC, connection reset and all vile errors that have forever plagued this Fray.
Cheers,
Techboy
3968. 109109 - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:22 AM PT
Techboy
As Churchill remarked to Stalin at Yalta,
blow me.
3969. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:23 AM PT
Ha, ha, ha.
They've got a program writing these posts.
3970. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:23 AM PT
pelle:
I was thinking the same thing... that Suite101 would be the best place to try and recreate the Fray. And I would be happy to try and help.
The reservation I have is that it would be hard to find new blood, which a forum like this desperately needs.
TM:
If I'd been able to get on-line the past few days, I still couldn't have done anything about what happened.
3971. spudboy - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:24 AM PT
Robust? Perhaps in purely technical terms, but it will be considerably *less* robust in terms of both content and the user experience.
Face it, guys. This product sucks. Did any of you even consider consulting the current users?
3972. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:24 AM PT
Auto reply:
Thank you for your feedback. Fuck you. Fuck off.
3973. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:25 AM PT
Spud,
They don't *want* the current users. Truly. Didn't you read the front page of the beta page?
3974. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:25 AM PT
oh well, irv. it was just a thought. but why wouldn't we be able to find new blood? surely if nothing else we'd make contact with the current suite 101 users?
3975. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:26 AM PT
Hey Tech Boy!
How long do we have before y'all pull the plug on us?
3976. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:26 AM PT
FTC:
What does it matter WHY they did it...the host ID shows up and most of us don't want it yet they set it up that way and are not answering ANY of our questions so....
Let us move on. Pelle had a suggestion about Suite 101; TT is an option; life is short...we all have lots left to say.
I've asked repeatedly about the ethics of accepting money when they knew they were shutting us down. Does anyone honestly think they devised this betaFarce in 2 weeks? Look how long it took them to attempt any repairs before. They've been planning this for quite some time.
3977. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:27 AM PT
As far as new users for Suite 101, couldn't we just troll here for interesting people? Hey, you! You're too good for this hellhole!
I'm interested in trying Suite101 over TT. TT is there, and it works as a default, but I think we can do better.
3978. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:27 AM PT
Oh, and Tech Boy....
bite me.
3979. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:31 AM PT
TECHBOY:
In case you hadn't noticed, the "vilest error" was just committed by you guys in instigating the betaFray.
3980. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:34 AM PT
And by the way, you know that umbrella from Slate? Well, use your "robust" imagination and figure out what I think you can do with it.
3981. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:37 AM PT
CalGal:
Nice idea in <3977>.<BR><BR>Techboy:<BR>I know you're acting as spin doctor, but "robust"?<BR><BR>I think we already have a robust forum. <BR>
3982. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:37 AM PT
come on, you guys, don't pile on TechBoy. At least he came in here to respond. That took guts, given how upset we all are.....and it was pretty chickenshit of management NOT to show up.
3983. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:43 AM PT
sorry about the missing "msg num="
3984. wabbit - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:47 AM PT
Well, this is a slap in the face, isn't it. For a couple years we have been making suggestions about how the fray could be improved, right here in this thread. This thread that was ostensibly for the tech people to read and consider.
Let me guess, this "new and improved" format was designed by some flunkie at MS, not at Slate, which is why NONE of the dozens of suggestions that have been made here over time have been implemented. Couldn't MS have devoted a couple of the people they have hacking AOL Messenger to this project? Gates should be embarrassed; with all the resources MS has at hand, the best they can do is give us some halfassed obsolete bbs.
3985. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:49 AM PT
I agree with tmachine that if we appear at 101 we will probably draw in some of their current users. And we may be drawn to some of their discussion areas which is also not a bad thing. And I support CalGal too. Come on you lurkers! Ride to the rescue of the Fray at its time of need!
But all this is talk. What should be *done*? Does anybody have an in with 101 or know somebody who has? Think of the PR value for them. "101 draws off the intellectual elite from Slate's Fray Forum."
3986. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:50 AM PT
Diva:
Wes aka: allaneq answered someone over in Test. Presumably, they will let us know the target date for pulling the plug. I suppose we'll know how close we are to that date when Jack Kevorkian starts posting.
3987. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:51 AM PT
Diva,
If that's the best Techboy could do, he needs some work.
My favorite: it is "supposed" to be free of errors.
Actually, I'd like it better if he posted:
"Hey, you fucking troublemakers.
We don't WANT an online forum here, can't you find a clue? We aren't making any money off of it, even the lousy techies we *do* hire cost a fortune, and we needed a way out. We tried the lousy support, the horrendous response time, the lost posts, the double loads. No good. You wouldn't leave. So *finally* we stuck in this ancient BBS, figuring that would do the trick. Looks like it has. Hallelujah.
We never wanted you anyway. Deal with it.
Love,
Techboy"
3988. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:58 AM PT
CalGal
Techboy doesn't deserve that. He's a good man. It never pays to kill the messenger.
judith:
Slate has promised to let me know the exact date and time, and I will post it when I know. Current estimate: August 23.
I agreed to oversee the closing down of the Fray on the condition that I would provide the honesty I felt that all of you deserve (to the best of my ability--I'm not exactly in the loop).
I don't blame Slate. They made a decision that they felt would be best for the magazine. I strongly disagree with it, but it's their right to make the decision.
3989. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
I'm not mad at Techboy. But if he's going to be the mouthpiece, how about he be an *accurate* mouthpiece?
I truly think that Slate is doing this to cut costs. They want to pretend its about a "change in direction", but the new system has to cost much less to support, they are firing Irv, and they don't *want* the new forum to be busy. Why? The only answer is money. My bet is that they are firing a good number of the existing techies at Slate, or will be.
I agree it's their right. I just wish they had told us months ago they were planning on this new direction.
3990. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
oh my God.
August 23.
I feel like I'm losing part of my family.
3991. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
They can forget Slate as a subscription site. I only subscribed for the Fray.
3992. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:02 AM PT
Bubba,
The only thing that cost *was* the Fray. They are going to be freeing that up as well, as they say.
3993. bubbaette - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:06 AM PT
Cal
I would hope so. I know very few people who would pay solely for the honor of writing a letter to the editor.
3994. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:06 AM PT
The last fee I paid was to Fray....since I am not going to be doing that any longer, I'd like to donate my $20 to a permanent marker in honor of all who've posted here. Maybe they could nail a floopy disc to the wall outside Slates offices and tape on a label saying "The Final R.I.P."
3995. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:11 AM PT
judith:
If you cancel your subscription, you can get a pro-rated portion returned (at least that has been the policy).
3996. 109109 - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:15 AM PT
Irv
If you know, do they automatically renew a subscription and charge your credit card (like they do on all my porno sites), or will they ask me?
3997. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:19 AM PT
Irv:
I renewed before my current subscription was up...frankly, I think they ought pay me a bonus for showing such (misplaced) faith in them.
3998. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:23 AM PT
And how can we STOP that STUPID EMAIL DELIVERY??
Christ, I've hated that for over a year now.
3999. ChristinO - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:28 AM PT
I have yet to open one since I realized what it was. Jaysus, I've already got Slate bookmarked so that I can enter the Fray. I SEE the freakin' front page for what it's worth. Lack of advertising and availability is NOT why I don't read it more often. It's lack of interest in the magazine in general.
4000. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:29 AM PT
Dear Techies
I recently had to re-subscribe to Slate in order to particpate in the Fray. Given the changes now in the works, I'd like information about how to get a refund on my remaining account (which should be at least three quarters of the subscription fee).
I am not interested in funding this site after the changes go through on (or about) August 23.
Thank you for your help in this matter
MsIt