25196. allaneq - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:19 PM PT
Existing Fraygrants;
We would like to invite you to try the new Fray, currently available in beta here. You should notice some significant changes, and we encourage you to read the FAQ available in the Fray Beta thread, if you have any questions. Over the long-term, Slate is working to provide a way let our readers provide feedback to the editors, and to build more of a sense of community among our readers. We hope that the newly redesigned Fray is a step in that direction.
You'll notice that the new Fray is structured around Slate itself, with a thread per department. After the beta is complete, you will be able to easily post feedback to an article, using a simple link at the bottom of each page. As the reader comment is added to each department's thread, we will select the best posts from each thread in the Fray and posting links to them at the bottom of the article itself, for other Slate readers to peruse and comment on. We have also made a Tech Support thread available here, and during the beta test, you can post your comments, complaints, or bug reports in our beta test thread, available here. Take a look around, test the waters, and let us know what you think.
Thanks,
Wes Miller
Program Manager
Slate Magazine
25197. CalGal - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:31 PM PT
Incidentally, if you don't want people to know your ISP, don't post to the new forum.
25198. pellenilsson - Aug. 9, 1999 - 10:47 PM PT
I think we should urgently open a new thread called "Beta Fray" or something and start it by moving all the comments, now scattered across the Fray, into it.
Where is Irving? He hasn't posted in a long time.
25199. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 5:18 AM PT
Before I jump to any unwarranted conclusions, was *anyone* asked for input to the new format?
I don't plan to provide helpful comments on fixing problems to people too doltish to ask for input *before* rewriting, but if many of you were selected to provide input, and I was left out…well, I'll understand.
25200. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:22 AM PT
Suppose they gave a BetaFray and nobody came.......
25201. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:25 AM PT
Good thinking. I will certainly not post there under current circumstances.
25202. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 6:54 AM PT
Dearest Irv,
Please make them (the crazed Slate techies) stop.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Disgruntled in Cubicle 4
25203. marjoribanks - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:02 AM PT
Irv,
1) What is your status given the "new and improved" Fray set-up?
2) I'm sorry to say this, but I will not be renewing my subscription to Slate. I've never got much from the magazine and while there are many people here in the Fray who I have come to like and appreciate, and have learned a hell of a lot, and have had a great deal of fun - it's clear that the very things that make this forum an enjoyable place are under threat, and now on the chopping block. I'll be posting here till Friday, then leave on an extended business trip. When I return, you'll be able to find me at Table Talk, hopefully we can get an "International Thread" there which can approximate the dynamic we've established here to the benefit of many.
3) Of course, if Slate decides to scrap the "beta-Fray" and somehow maintain roughly the format we have now, I'll be back.
25204. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:10 AM PT
Folks,
I'm not sure Irving even knows of this unveiling yet. I recieved word from him over the weekend that his computer is sick and he'll be offline until he can get to a big city for repairs. Seems that he moved residences, and when he set up his system in the new home, there was a power spike which fried his computer's innards.
Don't know more than that since he hurriedly sent me a note from a strange and unfriendly computer to tell me the news.
However, he does run a cybercafe, so I assume he'll be checking in very shortly.
25205. marjoribanks - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:28 AM PT
Further to my above message: there is now a thread entitled "Eclectic International Palaver" in Salons Table Talk (in the International Issues folder) - I hope this will develop into a suitable new home for those of us interested.
25206. AzureNW - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:43 AM PT
Cool. I hope someone will start a World Languages thread, too.
25207. marjoribanks - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:48 AM PT
Perhaps this link will take you straight to the new thread.
25208. marjoribanks - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:01 AM PT
On second thoughts, please don't try the link above, I believe it allows anyone and everyone to post under my moniker at TT. Obviously, this is a little confusing.
25209. hashke - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:30 AM PT
marj #25203:
Seconded. Does Gates have any idea what those beta techies might be smoking?
25210. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:54 AM PT
This is the hardest post I've ever had to write in the Fray. I'm sure I won't be able to say everything I want to say in one post, and I plan to turn this thread into sort of my peronal place for a while so we can talk about this.
I just got the word that I've been terminated. Sure, Slate appreciated everything I did, but ...
I've been a part of this form since right near the beginning... three years this month. I've loved every minute of it, and if you'll allow me to get sappy and sentimental (it won't be the last time), I think you're the best damn bunch of people I have ever had the honor to be associated with in my life, anywhere, no exceptions.
Thank you all for adding something special to my life, for making me laugh, making me think, making me learn, making me angry, making me reflect, and so much more.
I hope we keep in touch, but I know it won't happen. This is sort of like graduating from school. We'll all go our separate ways, and have fond memories of each other, but we'll drift apart, and maybe some of us will get together from time to time and remember those wonderful days of the Fray.
I don't regret one minute I've spent in this forum. If I've offended or hurt any of you over the years, I apologize from the depth of my heart. I never meant to hurt anyone, and I'd like to think that all of you are my friends.
Slate has informed me that we have a couple of weeks until they shut us down, so lets have fun and stick together a little while longer. I'll let you know the exact date when I know it.
I'm taking suggestions for new threads for the final days. (No, Diva, sorry... not even this could get me to approve *that* one.)
25211. 109109 - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:57 AM PT
Irv
Brother, you a class act.
25212. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:00 AM PT
G R E A T
J O B
I R V ! ! !
25213. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:03 AM PT
Funny, I was just mentally composing a post to the effect that maybe we were jumping the gun, that maybe when Slate saw how badly they botched the beta, they would reconsider. But it appears they have already decided to pull the plug.
This is a sad day.
25214. FreetoChoose - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:08 AM PT
A Suggestion for Irv
(Now, go ahead and tell me you are already a regular contributor.)
25215. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:12 AM PT
irv, my dearest budster, you're making me cry. are they giving you the real story on what they're doing here? do they really think they can make it work?
25216. judithathome - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:12 AM PT
Irv:
Thanks so much for being what I think we would all agree is a man with true Heart. You've done a superb job and made this place a pleasant and enjoyable experience.
Slate is shooting itself in the foot but as with all such things, they won't realize it til they try to walk.
25217. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:13 AM PT
I said you'll have to put up with me getting sentimental, and you will. I'm not going to try and put on a brave face, and tell you I don't have tears right now. I'll miss this place a lot.
I would be happy to make a Fray Memories page at the Fray site (which we can continue for archives --I hope somebody is willing to help foot the $25/month bill).
If anyone is interested in the page, I'll include fraygrant e-mail addresses, a birthday list, photos of fraygrants, links to fraygrant sites, etc.
Just send me anything you'd like included (your e-mail address, a photo, your birthday, your links, etc.). I will not include anything that isn't sent to me directly by the fraygrant concerned. And I won't revive the contents of my old page. So if you don't want to be on the new page, it's very simple... don't write me. If you *do* want to be included, just write me at IrvingSnodgrass@the-fray.com. All submissions will be included, unless they step on another person's toes.
25218. pellenilsson - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:13 AM PT
Irv,
You made me cry, almost.
I too fear that we will eventually go our separate ways but It would be good if it could be a gradual process rather than a bang. When you have time check out my idea about Suite101 in Technical based on an original suggestion by FTC.
25219. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
irv, i would seriously like to keep up with you via email. i think you have my home email, but my address at work is Tamara_Glenny@primediamags.com and I don't really care who knows since it's not really private. can you email me with an address for you that will likely stay the same for a while? thanks so much
25220. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
Jesus, Irv.
I'm so sorry. You're the best.
25221. 109109 - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:18 AM PT
Irv
I'll take 2 months. Tell me where to send the $50.
25222. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:18 AM PT
Thanks for the kind words, Niner, FTC, TM, and Judith.
Yes, I think Slate has given me the full story, albeit a bit late (less than an hour ago). I understand how they made the decision, but I disagree with it. I have lost touch with Slate and its direction over the past months, and have been out of the loop. But I do want to note that one person at Slate has been a true friend and supporter of the Old Fray, and I'll miss him. I'm speaking of Cyrus Krohn, who, like me, has been often caught between a rock and a hard place.
25223. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:20 AM PT
so what IS the full story?
25224. ProfEmeritus - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:22 AM PT
Irv
The suddenness and capricious nature of Slate's decision are revolting. If they persist they will lose me and I hope many other subscribers.
You have done a great job and I will miss your daily posts more than anyone else.
25225. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:26 AM PT
Niner:
Thanks for the offer. It's accepted! Write me.
pelle:
I answered your suggestion in Tech. I like the idea.
TM:
Don't worry, we'll stay in touch. You can reach me at the-fray.com address as long as Niner's money holds out. (I have paid for it up through the end of September... I'll have to remember to bill Slate.)
25226. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:29 AM PT
irv: put me down for another fifty bucks
25227. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT
TM:
The full story is exactly what fraygrants have surmised over the past few days. Slate prefers "Letters to the Editor" over an interactive forum.
ProfE:
Thanks. The family that frays together stays together.
CalGal:
Thanks.
25228. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT
Irv,
I'll pay for two months. Lemme know where.
25229. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:34 AM PT
TM, CalGal:
Cool, we're covered through March! I'll be in touch.
25230. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 9:45 AM PT
Message #25210
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
25231. hashke - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:02 AM PT
Irv:
Jeez, when I posted to you in Language I hadn't read the above bad news. What kind of lumpheaded thinking goes into such decisions? The thinking is worse than third-rate.
Sorry, I am not interested in being hog-tied to their bloody letters to the editor, so it's adios for me. The Fray as it is is a great, open, free-wheeling site. There is no substitute.
You get my vote as the best, and I'll support your suggestion for the new page.
25232. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:07 AM PT
Diva:
I take it that is a response to this part of my post:
"No, Diva, sorry... not even this could get me to approve *that* one."
25233. wabbit - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:12 AM PT
Irv,
Can we have an "It's Been Real, Folks" thread, please? There may be a few people who want to continue discussing issues for the next couple weeks, and a separate thread would allow us to vent and say our farewells and set up an alternative discussion forum.
25234. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:13 AM PT
no Irv
I think it really, really sucks, what they're doing, and specifically, what they did to you. I'm trying really hard to keep it light today, but it ain't working.
I've made so many true friends here. People who have helped me through tough times, and been with me on some of the best days of my life.
I have to stop, my mascara is running.
25235. ScottLoar - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:17 AM PT
I was getting weary of this Fray as it became too inbred and was suffering from the all-too-frequent prolix posts by the all-too-few. Still, it was about the best forum for a wide variety of topics and allowed deep exchanges.
I'm sorry to see it go. It was a rare thing for a while.
25236. LadyChaos - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:19 AM PT
Irv,
Gosh, I don't know what to say. The experience that we have had should be a part of history as a demonstration of the potential of this new technology for bringing people together. It's just too overwhelming to think that Slate is so shortsighted that this forum is coming to such an unceremonious end.
Irv, I especially want to thank you and tmachine for making the Frayunion happen, and for being such good friends through my personal crisis late last year.
The support I got from all of you who were at the Frayunion in NYC last year was phenomenal, a dream come true. I'll carry that memory with me for the rest of this life on Earth. Thank you, ChristinO, for the night on the town. It was great. Let's stay in touch.
Most of all, I want to say that being a Fraygrant has challenged me to be a stronger person intellectually than I otherwise might have been. Coming here has been the brain's equivalent of going to the gym for a good workout. No doubt, my success in law school thus far was in no small part helped by the sharpening of my debate skills in the Fray. For that, I need to thank each and every one of you, even those of you (or perhaps especially those of you) with whom I had frequent and sharp disagreements.
25237. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:20 AM PT
Irving
I am prophetic it seems. No sooner do I post that you should be here soon then do I see you pop up with your sad, but expected news.
I'm more sorry than I can say that things came down this way, but the writing has been on the wall for a while don't you think?
In any case, I have vastly enjoyed my participation in this forum, and your friendship and later guidance of our little group. Change is inevitable, however, and I suppose this was bound to happen at some point.
I started a list of email addresses over in the FC before coming here to read your posts, so if you want to just copy my list then feel free. I think those who've already posted their emails certainly want to be on any list you create for the archives.
25238. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:32 AM PT
hashke:
Thanks:
Diva:
Haven't you learned when I'm teasing you?
Hey, since I'm no longer in charge, I can wish you a happy birthday! (I think most folks are aware that my policy was to give no birthday greetings, out of fear I'd leave someone out, and that wouldn't be fair. For all those who have had birthdays since I've been moderator, a belated and heartfelt happy birthday!)
wabbit:
I tried to change the name of this thread for just such a purpose, but the Slate software wouldn't let me.
I'd like to use this thread as a place for talking about what we once had and sharing a few memories, if it's ok with all of you.
LadyC:
Beautifully said. If I thought it would do any good, I'd send that on to the folks at Slate.
ScottLoar:
Indded, it was a rare thing. Thanks for being part of it.
Msit:
Well, I've had a bad feeling for a while, since I was cut out of the loop, that something like this might be in the works.
Let's keep building that e-mail list. Also, all are encouraged to send photos, links, birthdays, etc. for the new page.
25239. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:37 AM PT
Irv
Yes, but this is entirely too upsetting. But thanks for the birthday wishes.
Hey, since you're going to do some kind of a site......do you think you could include either
1. a picture of you in The Famous Purple Mesh Shorts
or
2. a Penis Thread
???
25240. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:38 AM PT
So, how do we go out? With a whimper or a bang?
Slate suggested RIPing threads till there were none left, but that sounds a bit harsh. I'd rather let the whole thing expire when the time comes.
Or we could have a lottery. I'd pick a thread out of the hat each day and kill it. You all can take bets on the next thread to get axed.
Slate suggested that they do something special for all of us as a going-away gift. The only thing I could think of was not killing the Fray. I mean, what else is there that they could do for us? It's like offering a condemned person a last meal.
25241. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:40 AM PT
Diva:
Yes on #1.
Sorry about #2... I'm sure TT will allow you to start such a thread, however.
25242. LadyChaos - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:41 AM PT
I kinda' like the lottery idea. It has a certain grim fatalism to it that somewhat humorously reflects our current predicament.
25243. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:43 AM PT
Irv
#1 ooh! ooh! Are there closeups?
#2 phooey. Starting my own Penis Thread doesn't quite give me the same thrill as convincing Old Implacable Irv to do it for me.
25244. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:44 AM PT
Oh, lord. I just realized that the Movies thread will be axed and it finally hit me. Now *I'm* all teary-eyed.
I vote for let's leave it all alone? Let it disappear on the last day? The archivist and I will get cracking on making sure we have everything.
I dunno--I just can't bear the thought of some of the old standbys disappearing.
25245. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:44 AM PT
oh, and to the Slate Honchoes who want to give us a 'going away' present:
bite me.
25246. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:45 AM PT
Diva,
They have like 9000 Penis threads at TT. I kid you not.
25247. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:46 AM PT
Cal
My point exactly. It just ain't the same.
25248. Slackjaw - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:50 AM PT
cripes.
Sigh. Great job Irv.
So that's it? We're done at Slate? There's no way to make the new "fray" work for us? Cripes.
25249. TabouliJones - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:53 AM PT
Well, I had planned to become more active in the Fray as of September 1st, when I leave my beloved Toronto for some final schooling in Montreal, but there goes that security blanket. Well, it has been fun. Cheers to one and all.
Also, not that I like the guy or anything, but will somebody be informing PE about the Fray shutdown?
And Irv, you have been a wonderful, well tempered host.
25250. marjoribanks - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:54 AM PT
Irv,
I'd like to suggest we kill the International thread first. It's always been a kind of home to me, and since it has to go let the ending be swift. I sincerely hope we can attempt to recapture its dynamic somewhere. Table Talk is one such place, but it does have some drawbacks - I'm open to suggestions.
And I'd hoped never to have to say these things but I concur with much of what you and Loar have to say. This place had some quite profound and astonishing moments. I will not forget the excitement I felt when first engaged fully with this forum, and must thank you first of all for bringing me here.
These threads have not failed to astonish me on occasion. Everybody who regularly posts in the International and Language threads has spurred me to better thinking, or broader curiosity.
Finally, it should be noted that one brattish PseudoErasmus in many way reflects the very best of the Fray past (and some of the worst, but that's another story). It would be remiss of me to not mention him by name, since his contribution to the highest moments of this Fray is unquestionable.
25251. hashke - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:58 AM PT
Why not let them do their beta thing, leave the old Fray, and see where all the chips fall? Money certainly can't be much of an issue with Slate...can it?
25252. cllrdr - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:01 AM PT
Interested parties can reach me at cllrdr@earthlink.net and/or "Cafe Majanlahti" in the "Private Lives" section of Table Talk.
25253. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:03 AM PT
Banks
Yes, PE. I miss him, that young fogey.
25254. Jenerator - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:04 AM PT
Um...I've bene pretty busy at work today -- so I'm out of the loop. What's going on? Is Slate changing its format again and everybody is formally protesting by going over to Table Talk, or is Slate really finito?
25255. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:04 AM PT
I'm feeling more inclined toward the lottery idea (must be the evilitant in me -- geez, I miss the lovely lady who coined that term). Let me give it a try. Perhaps I'll RIP a thread a day, by lottery, and give time for the archives to catch up.
25256. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:11 AM PT
I put all the threads in a box and picked one at random...
FC
So, do we do the lottery thing?
25257. Slackjaw - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:16 AM PT
I favor letting them all go until the very end.
25258. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:20 AM PT
Not the Corner, Irv.
Please.
25259. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
Well, I'm going to bed now. I love you people. I know that sounds stupid about an on-line community, but it's true. I've met many of you in person, and enjoyed on-line and off-line discussions which had meaning. Losing the Fray will leave a real void in my life.
Sure, I'll get over it, but the memories will always be there.
Tomorrow I'll start my reminiscences. Episode One: Freshman Year.
25260. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
Irv,
Please don't RIP the threads. At least not the regulars. Let them end when the Fray does.
25261. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:25 AM PT
Irv
Sweet dreams. Love you, too.
25262. arkymalarky - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:29 AM PT
My first and only words in cyberspace with the exception of the TSE article have been in this forum, and if it weren't for Irv's kind and welcoming responses to some of my early posts in FC I don't think I would have gotten comfortable and stayed.
Irv, everyone's said it already, but you are a man of great sincerity and integrity who makes everyone you know feel that they are valued friends. (If you caught my post in Language, that sentence will have more relevance. ;-)) It's a rare quality which is not valued nearly enough in this age of pr and soundbites.
I'm with Diva. We love you too, Irv.
25263. Jenerator - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:00 PM PT
Someone, please answer my question! What's going on??
25264. PincherMartin - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:02 PM PT
Jenerator --
Read back through the fucking thread, you dummy!
25265. msgreer - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:04 PM PT
Irv
i love you too.
25266. Jenerator - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:07 PM PT
Pincher,
That's it. You and me, we're going to throw down right now.
25267. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:11 PM PT
Cripes,
This is sad. Very sad.
Marj,
I remember when we sucked you into the fray initially, from the first and last official FrayChat forum over in Yahoo.
I will miss you very much.
25268. Jenerator - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:13 PM PT
How's everyone going to find one another in Table Talk? That site is a maze of fluff.
25269. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:13 PM PT
Jen,
See Message #25210. Also, check out the abortion known as the "new Fray". Then read a post in Tech by some editorial guy named Michael. That should put it all together.
25270. Jenerator - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:18 PM PT
Thanks Cal. I've been having a hard time loading pages today. It seems that it's almost impossible to view anything that isn't within the 20 most recent posts.
Did you hear that Pincher?
25271. TrialShark - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:22 PM PT
The Fray is being terminated?
Oh, crap.
25272. Jenerator - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:28 PM PT
Irv,
You did a wonderful job as fray moderator, and I thank you for your professionalism and friendship.
25273. CalGal - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:31 PM PT
TS,
Yep. Sucks, don't it?
25274. thoughtful - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:42 PM PT
I am shocked! Shocked over the news, the lies, the promises of a better fray only to see the plug pulled after years of devoted membership in this most unique and fabulous forum. Slateleaders, you should be ashamed of yourselves!
Fraygrants, there are so many of you who have touched me in so many special ways. There are so many things I've learned from all of you. You've helped me clarify my own thoughts as well as learn about subjects with which I've had little familiarity. We've shared laughs and tears, joy and anger. We've busted stereotypes, worked hard at educating ourselves and others, reached new heights of creativity, and we've had a damn good time. All of us have demonstrated how this amazing thing called the internet can bring people together from around the world to share their similarities and differences. No one died here -- some have been saved. This has been truly a wonderful thing.
Slateleaders, you are WRONG to pull the plug on this! How can you complain about the limited participation here vs. the magazine? You charge for this and you don't the magazine. Duh! We told you in the beginning it was a mistake to charge at all, and we've been proven correct. Rather than pull the plug, fix the mistake by making this forum free again, and watch the participation zoom. Rather than kill it, you should nurture it as the precious, delicious forum it is.
I will do my best to be around til the bitter end. I wholly support any efforts to meet elsewhere be it TT or Suite 101. Irving has my e-mail address and knows how to reach me.
Irving, let me extend a special thanks to you for hosting this forum. It improved substantially under your guidance and your sense of integrity and fairness permeated these threads like no other. You did a fine job. I appreciate it.
25275. tmachine - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:07 PM PT
dear ladychaos, thanks for the kind mention though somewhat undeserved i think. i am terminally bummed. i think thoughtful hit the nail on the head. how could slate expect to expand the fray as constituted when you have to pay to be in it?
25276. phillipdavid - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:15 PM PT
I share thoughtful's thoughts in Message #25274 -- especially the second paragraph. Very well said, thoughtful.
25277. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:24 PM PT
Fraygrants, please read this.
25278. Rivendell - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:28 PM PT
Damn,
Go away for a bit of academic summer and see what happens.
This forum has been a cherished oasis since October, 1996. I have learned so much from the participants here. To say I will miss it is inadequate. To say I am surprised would be a lie. Slate has never understood what they had.
Several years ago - and at least a year before this forum went online - Time magazine did a short article describing the generally sad quality of writing spawned by the Internet. I have thought of that article many times in the past nearly three years as I read through Fray threads. Sure we had our share of drek, but like the little girl in the poem, "when we were good we were very, very good".
The people I will miss the most already know who they are, but Irving deserves recognition here.
Irv,
You have put so much of yourself into this place. A great deal of the "place where everybody knows your name" feel we have enjoyed is because of what you did when you were an ordinary Fraygrant and it continued throughout your tenure as Fraymaster. Thank you for your unerring kindness.
To the rest of you: I hope to be able to find you in some other place and maybe we will be able to say, "you know, this is almost as good as the Fray used to be."
25279. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:29 PM PT
Jeez, Riv, and I'd just stopped crying.
Shit.
25280. Rivendell - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:44 PM PT
Diva,
Then let me add that I am tying this on my new 450mhz Pentium III machine in my office.
I have the power.
25281. theDiva - Aug. 10, 1999 - 1:46 PM PT
ACK!
You shittin' me?
That is so very cool. Now, can you handle the speed, the power, baby? That's a pretty sophisticated and responsive machine you got there.
25282. Rivendell - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:00 PM PT
Can I handle the speed?
Who you kiddin' baby. A' course I can. Ohh... feel it hug those corners.
Now... what was that I was saying about this forum promoting literate expression.
25283. Ronski - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:05 PM PT
Though I have not been in the Fray very long, my thanks to Irv, also. And my admiration, as well.
As for the comments about writing in cyberspace, I know a bioethicist who believes that writing in electronic media will improve, because it has to -- that writing exists because people have the need to communicate clearly for their own well-being, if not survival.
The Fray was one of the few electronic spaces I've visited where there often was clarity of expression, and if there was not always an exquisite succintness to be found here, it was still one of the few places where people would be held to account for being sloppy and vague. At least much of the time.
I've learned a great deal in the Fray, and laughed a whole lot, too. I think the Slate editors and MS are nuts to do this.
It wasn't because the other day some of us expressed no interest in sleeping with Gates, was it?
25284. TrialShark - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:11 PM PT
Ron --
If sleeping with Bill Gates will bring back the Fray, then let me be the first to hereby volunteer colossus for that noble duty.
25285. Ronski - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:12 PM PT
Trial,
Greater love hath no man that, surely.
25286. Rivendell - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:31 PM PT
Ronski,
Re: "The Fray was one of the few electronic spaces I've visited where there often was clarity of expression, and if there was not always an exquisite succintness to be found here, it was still one of the few places where people would be held to account for being sloppy and vague."
Your words sum up nicely what I was trying to say and what I will miss the most about this forum. I have looked at a few other places, but none of them have established the tradition of participants challenging each other the way Fraygrants do. God knows, I have contributed as much as anyone to the social silliness here, but it has always been the engaging clash of ideas that kept me coming back.
25287. TrialShark - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:46 PM PT
Riv --
You're wrong. Nyah, nyah. Bite me.
... just preparing you for what it's like on other message boards.
25288. Rivendell - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:50 PM PT
TS -
You mean Ace and Jexster post to all those other boards??
Sorry... couldn't help myself.
25289. blueheart - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:52 PM PT
Irv:
I wish I'd participated earlier and gotten to know you and your work better. From the many tributes that have been posted, it's clear that you'd earned a reputation for grace and professionalism. From a purely parochial perspective, I'm grateful to you for creating a forum for some honest and balanced discussion about President Nixon last month. Thank you, and good luck with any and all challenges to come.
One was surprised that Slate, being Slate, was committed to a real vox populi feature. It'll be interesting to see how the new feature turns out.
25290. LadyChaos - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:55 PM PT
I posted this earlier on Tech, I think, but I'll say it here again.
Slate has never really understood the unique quality of what has been going on, here. I have often wondered why Slate didn't arrange to have a news magazine piece done on the Fray. It would have been an interesting subject, and excellent publicity for Slate.
Oh, well, one thing I've learned about corporate America is that you can always count on the people at the top to never facilitate communication and to always make the stupidest decisions possible.
25291. TrialShark - Aug. 10, 1999 - 2:59 PM PT
Riv --
Yes, actually. Ace posts as "Simon Templar" on TT. He's already intimidated the folks at Salon with his lethal employment of the word "fatty."
25292. jonesatlaw - Aug. 10, 1999 - 3:14 PM PT
Irv- Many thanks for work which has gone thankless at times.
I appreciated your welcome and have enjoyed my time here. My thanks to those who traded ideas and insults with me.
25293. arkymalarky - Aug. 10, 1999 - 3:44 PM PT
Great post, Thoughtful. It pretty much sums everything up in a wonderful way.
25294. allaneq - Aug. 10, 1999 - 3:53 PM PT
Greetings. A few quick notes/updates on the new Fray.
1:We're going to remove the host address in the new Fray this afternoon, and it should be reflected by tomorrow morning at the latest - so, you can post in complete privacy.
2:I'm looking into populating the username with your Slate login.
3:Several people have commented on the "delayed post" issue, and that the message which says it takes 2 minutes to show up.
This isn't technically true. It's actually 30 seconds. Why? Because the new Fray uses a very different (non-database based) architecture, so it should be more reliable under high server load, and faster.
Technical stuff out of the way...
First off, I apologize that the new Fray wasn't what you all had hoped for. The _last thing_ I had in mind while working on this feature was isolating/expunging our existing users. In fact, the primary goal was actually to get MORE interaction, and MORE of a community feeling going in the Fray. In fact, we wanted to have the beta _for_you_all_, and our hope was soliciting some great feedback _from_you_.
Secondly, our updates to/through our Tech support team should have been much better before the beta. I'll make sure that in the future, we keep Slate's reader community apprised of our goals and objectives as I can.
Tomorrow, I'll be creating a new general interest thread in the new Fray, which will be open discussion on any topic.
I'd really like to take this opportunity to invite you all to the new Fray, and tell you that I hope you will continue to participate in Slate's user forums. If you have concerns or issues, please post them in our beta feedback thread here - I WILL be watching for your feedback!
Thanks,
Wes Miller
Program Manager
Slate Magazine
25295. harper - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:52 PM PT
Dear Wes Miller & Michael the Techie:
You are kindly invited to bite my ass. I want my money back since you won't let me post to my friends any more.
The problem with "Slate" is that it just isn't all that special. It's hard to get readership with competing products that are just as good. What was unique about "Slate" was the quality of the people posting in the Fray.
You guys have just shot yourselves in the foot.
Yours truly,
harper
<catherder@hotmail.com>
25296. harper - Aug. 10, 1999 - 7:58 PM PT
Irv:
I will miss you big time. Please, let's try to get something together so we all don't lose touch with one another. I'm not a techie & couldn't set up a chat forum like this if you held a gun to my head. But I'm willing to contribute my $50 to keep something like the Fray going. I've met a lot of interesting people, both in cyberspace and in person, and I've kept some of them as my friends.
I'd like that to continue somehow. I've signed up for Table Talk under my real name, but I haven't tried it out yet. Maybe we can establish a recovering Fray addicts forum there.
If not, I'll sure as hell miss the Fray and its denizens.
harper
<catherder@hotmail.com>
25297. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:15 PM PT
Harper
TableTalk has had a thread entitled Fraygrants Corner or something like that under their Private Lives category for at least 4 months or so. It was set up by CoralReef when the fray had some major technical problems a while back (well, several problems back actually). That's a good place to begin checking for things happening or conversations with information. Several of the old fray posters drop in there frequently, and it can be the starting point for launching oneself into the other threads at TT.
25298. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:36 PM PT
Msit, harper:
Check out my post in the Tech thread, evaluating our options. I don't think anything could inspire me to participate in TT.
We'll work something out.
25299. MsIvoryTower - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:42 PM PT
Well that's silly, Irv.
I see them as about the same, given the pros and cons of each environment. Both are inferior to what the Fray was, but then it's futile to compare them.
25300. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 10, 1999 - 8:45 PM PT
By the way, thanks for all the kind words addressed to me above, from all of you wonderful people. I've put my heart and soul into this place, and it's nice to know it was appreciated by the ones who matter.
Wes:
Allow me to introduce myself. We've never met, and I'd never heard of you until today. I have been in charge of this forum for Slate for nearly two years. You appear to not be aware of my existence.