101. incognito - June 23, 1999 - 11:28 AM PT
sorry, that shouldn't be "intern" but "orderly." just a grub i was.
102. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 11:31 AM PT
So duck, silly!
Smack him on the top of his neck as you duck, and the horse will get the idea.
I have sat my body down on a 50 pound salt block while 8 months pregnant and had a 17h horse come when I called him and stand patiently with his hoof in my lap while I cleaned out, all the while with him not only not tied, but not even wearing a halter or in any way be confined.
I have also watched a 14h horse pick up a 6'4" man by the shoulder, shake him like a rat, then toss him in the corner like a imp rag.
You've got to know what you are doing.
(BTW 17h = 5'8" at the shoulder, 14h = 4'8" at the shoulder. 14h is generally the minimum height to be called a horse rather than a pony. 17h is typical of a lot of Thoroughbreds and hunter/jumpers)
103. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 11:32 AM PT
ummmm.... or even "... like a Limp rag"
104. Ronski - June 23, 1999 - 11:35 AM PT
Christi,
I think my problem has to do with the "know what you are doing" part.
Thanks for the post, though, which I enjoyed.
105. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 11:46 AM PT
Yep, you got it.
I started riding at age 7.
I started serious lessons at age 15.
I got my first horse at age 17.
Then I worked my ass off at various farms and training facilities.
Then I went to school and finished my degree in Equestrian Science at age 21.
Then I worked my ass off training, judging, teaching, and continuing to learn for the next 15 years.
GOD, I MISS IT!!!
106. judithathome - June 23, 1999 - 12:03 PM PT
Doc Brown:
Sorry, I omitted the part you were interested in: it's a '90 and is in excellent condition. One of my husbands clients was moving to Kauai and didn't want to risk taking it along. My good fortune!
107. marshame - June 23, 1999 - 12:03 PM PT
The worst job I ever had was handing out free samples at a grocery store. It was FREEZING to stand in an air conditioned grocery store all day. Plus, how interesting is it, to pitch lemon juice or potato chip dip? Plus, I started getting annoyed at the children who thought *my* samples were their free lunch. Not to mention, I kept eating the damned dip.
I held this job for 42 years. Just retired last Christmas when I couldn't face another New Years' Eve potato chip dip campaign.
Kidding!! I did this job one Christmas vacation during college.
108. incognito - June 23, 1999 - 12:08 PM PT
which was 42 years ago, right marshame?
109. pellenilsson - June 23, 1999 - 12:11 PM PT
DocBrown - Message #81
"But tell me, does it bother you at all to spend so much time seperated from your possessions (home, car, furniture, etc.)? I would find that distressing."
Yes, it bothers me. To the items you mention I would add my books. But the pleaure of working abroad in tightly focused projects, under great pressure and with dedicated staff has compensated. And one cannot eat the cake and keep it.
110. pellenilsson - June 23, 1999 - 12:13 PM PT
marj
Your CV is intriguing. I would love to see you expand on one or two of your occupations.
111. marshame - June 23, 1999 - 12:14 PM PT
incognito
Hee hee hee (smarty pants).
Yes, 42 years on the job. I started working there at age 10 while in college. I got my masters in Dipology.
112. robertjayb - June 23, 1999 - 12:26 PM PT
ChristiP Message #105
Give up your CityGeek ways and get thee to the
horse pasture. Do it now. Don't look back!
113. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 12:34 PM PT
robertjayb -
Perhaps someday I will. I haven't spoken to you before, so maybe you don't know that I am now disabled from accidents in 1984 and 1990.
However, in 1986, the doctors told me I would be in a wheel chair sometime in the next 5 years and they were wrong.
It took me until 1998, but now I can walk without a cane, go up and down stairs (though my knees protest that) and have recovered the use of my left arm.
My latest self-improvement project is to get off my final pain med which has caused me to gain weight and lose the weight.
After that, I will find a patient riding instructor here and find out if I can ride again.
Then... who knows!
114. pellenilsson - June 23, 1999 - 12:43 PM PT
ProfEmeritus --- Message #89
"In my early academic career I had the great advantage of helping to launch the newly emerging field of development economics"
An off-topic question. Back here we think that Gunnar Myrdal's works in that field were of importance (the title of his book on Asian economic development escapes me). What is your opinion?
115. robertjayb - June 23, 1999 - 12:46 PM PT
Bet your horse-sense would be useful to a lot
of riders (and their horses,too) even from the
corral fence.
Go smell some manure......
116. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 1:07 PM PT
Well, maybe once I finish unpacking, I'll go out and find where the manure is in this burg.
117. robertjayb - June 23, 1999 - 1:09 PM PT
ChristiP,
I came up on a farm amid horses and cows and such
and never developed much of a romantic interest
in the critters. Too, the mare I was fated to ride
had been spooked at a tender age by a covey of quail
flushing from beneath her feet. She spent the rest
of her life on the lookout for more quail and every
once in awhile would leap sideways without notice,
just as a precaution I suppose. No relaxing aboard
her. No way. My cousin and fellow cowhand would ride
along with the reins dangling and his leg crossed on
the pommel. And rolling a Bull Durham cigarette. Meanwhile
I had to hold on tight, tight, tight at all times.
Horses are interesting. But no recreational riding for me,
thanks.
118. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 1:15 PM PT
robertjayb - I have known such horses and 'rehabilitated' a few, to say nothing of the ones that would flip over backwards on you, run away with you, scrape you off on trees or fences, and rip chunks out of you with their teeth.
I have also owned (note I did NOT own any of the above) horses which would try to scoot back under you if you started to slide off, one that would stop, swing her head around, and push my two physically handicapped students back into the center of the saddle if they needed it, and one that charged over and stood guard over me keeping all the others away once when I fell and got knocked out in the pasture.
hint - it'a 20% genetics and 80% how ya' raise 'n' train 'em.
119. judithathome - June 23, 1999 - 1:29 PM PT
christi:
My dad once bought me a cute little horse who had been in a carnival; he would rear up on his hind legs and "dance" if you touched him in the right spot. He was my second horse.
My first horse was a sweetheart and you can imagine what I went thru one day after school when I went with a friend down to feed Sandy only to find him in the throes of dying from a careless gunshot wound some jerk had caused. He died with his head in my lap and we never found the guys who did it. I'm sure it was an accident but it was more than painful enough, anyhow...
120. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 1:47 PM PT
judithathome -
Oh how sad! Please accept my sympathy. I lost my first horse in 1983 after owning and loving her for 13 years. Sometimes I still cry.
One of the things that my accident taught me is that the pain you experience from someone's carelessness is not any less than from someone's deliberate act.
Pain is pain.
121. judithathome - June 23, 1999 - 2:09 PM PT
Thanks, Christi...I was 13 at the time and you know how emotional a teenage girl can be over a horse...
122. CHristipEtERS - June 23, 1999 - 2:13 PM PT
Your welcome, judith
BTW, I think it is right and proper to get emotional over the loss of a living thing you care about.
123. ProfEmeritus - June 23, 1999 - 7:33 PM PT
pelle
I haven't looked at Myrdal's book for perhaps 45 years. Wasn't it written with his wife and focussed on India?
If I remember correctly, I liked it very much and learned a good deal from it - especially about the "non-economic" aspects of development.
124. ProfEmeritus - June 23, 1999 - 7:54 PM PT
pelle
As I am sure you know, the name Ohlin is very famous in economics. There is an Ohlin of my generation who became a well known and distinguished development economist. He spent a lot of time in the US; perhaps most or all of his career. I met him once at a conference and was well impressed with him. I have forgotten his fist name. Per?
I looked him up in the American Economic Association Directory, but he wasn't listed. Do you know anything about this Ohlin the Younger?
I am sure he started out in Sweden. I assume that he was a descendent of the famous international economist, Bertril (Sp?) Ohlin.
125. joezan - June 23, 1999 - 9:20 PM PT
Since age 19, every job I've had has been in a field where I get to work with troubled adolescents. I fell into it by accident. My (then) gf's dad was nursing director at the local state hospital, and he cajoled me into taking a civil service exam for an entry level job as a Therapy Aide - only by promising me that he would see to it that I was assigned to work in the adolescent unit. I really had no interest in working with kids, but knew that otherwise I would be assigned to work in either a geriatric or adult chronic unit, since everything else was being phased out under de-institutionalization.
The hospital, which up to the early 70's housed 10,000 patients, was by then ('78) little more than a giant nursing home, with 3,000 geriatrics, about 1,000 chronic adults, and the 48-bed Adolescent Unit, all by itself on the 4th floor of an imposing, circa 1942 building, in a unit which once held 400 adults.
I very quickly learned to love the job. I considered it a privilege to work with these throw-aways, and had nothing but contempt for those who just came to collect a check, and didn't give a damn about their charges.
We were all these kids had, literally. Some were older than me. Most had already been in the hospital for 5 years or longer, and precious few ever even received a letter, let alone a visit, from anyone who cared about them.
(cont'd...)
126. joezan - June 23, 1999 - 9:23 PM PT
(...cont'd from #125)
I was in school, studying to be a recreation therapist, and finished up about a year after our unit was absorbed by a large (180 bed) children's psych center, where I was promoted to unit supervisor. This place was an absolute zoo. A couple of years earlier, Gov. Carey had pushed through a "get-tough on juvenile crime" bill which made it possible to send kids as young as 14 to prison. The only problem was, he hadn't counted on the activism of liberal N.Y. judges, most of whom would hear any insanity plea for such cases, and sent these kids to institutions such as mine, instead of to prison.
So, the place was full of murderers, thugs and rapists. And the children who were there for treatment of the more common neuroses and psychoses suffered horribly - it was they who were in prison, victimized by the criminals they lived with.
In '84 a job opened at the center for a rec therapist, which I jumped at. I held that position for 2 years, while I continued studies in criminal justice. Then in '86 I was promoted to head of the rec dept.
The bureaucracy of the state system finally got to me in '88, and I quit. I hated my job, and had recently ended a 7 year relationship with a woman who worked in the same department as I, and there wasn't much holding me in N.Y., with which I was growing more and more frustrated - the crime, high taxes, high cost of living, etc. My sister had moved to rural West Michigan with her family in '85, and I had grown quite envious of the bucolic life she and hers were enjoying.
(cont'd...)
127. joezan - June 23, 1999 - 9:27 PM PT
(...cont'd from #126)
So, in the summer of '88, while working as a rec therapist for a chain of foster-care homes for developmentally disabled young adults, I came out here to Michigan and applied at every child-caring facility in the south-western part of the state.
I quickly got a job as a shift supervisor at a tiny (16-bed) juvenile detention center, and I have been on vacation (compared with my last state job in N.Y.) ever since. I have always felt valued and appreciated by both the court I work for, and the people with whom I work. I got to play a large part in developing a new, treatment-based behavior program, which is as rare in this field as fur on a frog. And, in '92 I helped design the state-of-the-art, 40-bed facility we built in '94, which has become the model for this state. Our program and facility are now recognized as among the best in the entire country.
I began taking courses and seminars in training in the early 90's, and the training coordinator position I now hold was created for me about 3 years ago. At that time, I also began a complete revamping of our P & P, and implementing many procedural changes, with an eye towards accreditation from the American Correctional Association. This will become a reality in mere weeks, and we will be the only juvenile facility in the state, and one of the few in the country, to hold this certification. When this happens, it will be the biggest accomplishment of my career, and my family and I will take a long vacation.
Yesterday I did my first contract job for the Michigan Supreme Court's Judicial Institute, teaching 2 components at the juvenile court workers' academy at Higgin's Lake.
What's next? Maybe consulting.
128. joezan - June 23, 1999 - 9:48 PM PT
...which, I realize after reading the above, is awfully boring.
But, Hey! Someone asked...
129. pellenilsson - June 23, 1999 - 10:37 PM PT
ProfEmeritus -- Message #125
You probably refer to Göran Ohlin, born 1925 who worked for international institutions since 1965, starting at the OECD, then the World Bank and finally the UN as Assistant General Sectretary. He is of course known in Sweden but he has never been a public figure here as his uncle Bertil was. Internationally, Bertil Ohlin is known as an economist but for the general public here he was above all a politician, leader of the Liberal Party 1944-67. He had a daughter, Ann, who was minister of finance in the beginning of the 90's.
I didn't have the title of Myrdal's book yesterday but I have looked it up: 'Asian Drama' (1968). It is quite possible that he and his wife, Alva, has written about India. She was ambassdor there at the end of the 50'. The Myrdals were instrumental in formulating the foundations for the Swedish welfare state which came into being after the war. I will come to them in my History of Sweden which is progressing very slowly due to the nice weather we are having. Evening bicycle tours are more tempting than hitting the keyboard.
130. ethiopianeunuch - June 23, 1999 - 11:42 PM PT
Jenerator: mess. 73
It's a coffee shop, breakfast and lunch. . We also do a lot of business with the local oil refineries. Lots of regular customers.
131. pellenilsson - June 24, 1999 - 3:55 AM PT
ethiopianeunuch
I'm a planner by profession and I like it. I like optimisation problems where the challenge is to find a balance between two extremes.
I have always thought that running a restaurant at a profit is a very delicate optimisation problem. To achieve the right balance between minimizing costs and maximizing customer satisfaction cannot be easy. If you want to share some thoughts about that I would be happy.
132. ProfEmeritus - June 24, 1999 - 4:51 AM PT
pelle
After I posted to you I remembered the title of Myrdal's book. Of course he wrote many others, the most famous in the US being about African-Americans in the US, based on field work here, especially in the South.
Yes, it was Goran Ohlin, and now I recall that he at one time was a visiting professor at the same institution I served at. I remember him as a very handsome and bright young man.
Thanks for bringing me up to date on Goran, and I hope to hear more about Ohlin and Myrdal in your recounting of Swedish history. I imagine you also know the name Wicksell whose work I studied in Graduate School as an early contributor to monetary theory.
133. phillipdavid - June 24, 1999 - 8:44 AM PT
joe,
I am interested in the underlying philosophy of your institution.
Is your place a holding facility, ot do you actively endeavor to work with the kids in some constructive manner?
134. incognito - June 24, 1999 - 12:30 PM PT
i am a shoe salesman, much like Al Bundy
135. joezan - June 24, 1999 - 7:37 PM PT
phillipdavid:
Thanks for asking. We are, technically, a holding facility, since county detention centers, by law, are only for pre-dispositional holding of juveniles charged with crimes(disposition is juvy-speak for sentencing). Our Judge, though, having much latitude (and possessing great creativity) in these matters, has developed over the years many programs which enable him to keep offenders right here at "home". You see, there is not a residential treatment facility within 100 miles of here, nor a state training school for 150 miles, and it is this court's belief that a kid needs to have as much contact with his/her family and community as possible.
So when we designed our facility, we divided the 40 beds into 5 pods of 8 kids, each pod self-contained - 8 bedrooms surrounding a large living/dining area, totally enclosed and separate from the other pods, and each staffed with a qualified Youth Specialist 100% of the time. 3 of these pods are straight detention pods, and 2 are treatment pods - one being a 30-day substance abuse program, and one a 120-day, intensive group, individual and family therapy program.
But all is not touchy-feely, no-such-thing-as-a-bad-boy psycho babble here. Our basic philosophy runs counter to that of most treatment programs. We believe that, as far as delinquent behavior goes, there can be no treatment until behavior is brought under control.
So kids who are dispo'ed into the treatment pods begin their 30 or 120 days when they get their behaviors under control. In the 120-day program, kids earn gradually longer home visits once they are cooperative with program and therapy for 6 weeks, so there is great incentive to do so.
(cont'd...)
136. joezan - June 24, 1999 - 7:40 PM PT
(...cont'd from #135)
Most take at least a few days to "get with the program". A few never do get it, and are "escalated" - either ordered into a straight detention pod for the remainder of their time, then discharged on tether and intensive probation, or made state delinquency wards, in which case they are ordered into one of many long-term (9 mo's or more) state facilities. I should mention that these kids are multiple-felony offenders, and would be made state wards in most jurisdictions, without a shot at treatment.
Additionally, kids who are not in the treatment pods are allowed to continue therapy they may have been involved in on the outside, or even to seek therapy while in detention (although the average stay for kids in the detention pods is 8.5 days).
Whether in treatment or detention pods, all of our kids are required to be active participants in our behavior program, Guided Group Interaction, which is based on the Positive Peer Culture model. Kids must not only take responsibility for their own behaviors, but also must hold their group members accountable. We use a formal process for problem-solving negative behaviors, and all residents must actively participate. One may not earn any privileges by simply complying with the rules.
(cont'd...)
137. joezan - June 24, 1999 - 7:43 PM PT
(...cont'd from #136)
All of the above, believe it or not, is vastly different from most other juvy centers, which ARE "holding centers", where kids do little more than sit around, play cards, watch TV and fight - and is why we are recognized nationwide as trend-setters in the field. But probably the most significant difference between our facility and others, is our schedule. Another of our philosophies is that the vast majority of the kids we see have been running their own lives - basically doing what they want. While this gives them a feeling of power, it also scares the hell out of them. Their anti-social, delinquent behavior is borne of this fear, in most cases. It is our belief that structure is the key to getting their behavior under control.
So, from the minute they walk into our facility, every minute of their lives is planned. No kid is ever left alone with another. They travel exclusively with their assigned group, and have no contact with any resident from any other group. They are never more than a few feet away from a staff member, and staff are trained extensively in observational skills. They go to school every weekday, year-round. They may not miss school unless they have a fever or other visible signs of illness. (Our school, btw, has for 2 years been runner-up in the entire state for all public special ed programs).
(cont'd...)
138. joezan - June 24, 1999 - 7:46 PM PT
(...cont'd from #137)
After school and on weekends, their schedule includes homework time, gym and outdoor recreation, recroom time, arts & crafts, life skills, "free" time, and TV time, all in 1/2 hour blocks. They get to watch TV 1 hour a day, and 1/2 hour of that is for world news. The other 1/2 hour is strictly controlled - no shows with a violent, sexual or negative theme - no talk shows, music channels, or WWF. We also allow visits with family and clergy every day, which is another rarity. Our Judge, in fact, frequently hauls parents into court for show-cause hearings, and orders them to visit at least once a week, and to write to their child.
They may not have any personal possessions - no money, food, shoes, or clothes of their own. We provide it all. So there is nothing that can be stolen from them.
All this makes for an environment where therapy is possible, and where kids feel safe. In the 8 years we have used this program, there have been 2 fights and one staff assault, none of which lasted more than a couple of seconds, nor drew blood.
We have a very hard time convincing people from other facilities that this is true, and I love bragging on our program to them, and inviting them to come see for themselves.
139. joezan - June 24, 1999 - 7:52 PM PT
I realize that was more than our "underlying philosophy", and apologize, but it's hard for me to explain the philosophy without going in depth into our program.
140. CHristipEtERS - June 25, 1999 - 6:49 AM PT
joezan -
Thank you for sharing all this information on your "job", your facility, and how it is run. I have found it very interesting.
The kids I worked with in my horseback riding program were in a different situation. I had three kids with hearing and learning disabilities and two with physical disabilities. However, the majority were in group homes as foster care having been permanently removed from their birth families for one reason or another. Some of them had been in abusive situations, but some of them had simply lost their families through tragedy and were "hard to place".
To ride a horse well, being in control, and not bouncing all over, you need to have correct, upright, but relaxed posture. Some people ride bracing themselves in the stirrups and absorbing the horse's motion in their knees - BAD idea. Not only is this hard on your knees, but you've just made it easier for the horse to dump you as you are really just poised in the air above the horse. You've also lost a great deal of your communication with the horse - your seat and legs. A proper seat is deep and moving with the horse, absorbing the motion in your back. You can't do this hunched over.
For some reason, most of my students from the group homes arrived at their first lesson with a hunched and/or slouched posture. So the riding lessons included work on good posture, with exercises to do in between lessons. After about three lessons, the counselor for my first group of kids made a point of telling me that he had seen behavior changes that he attributed partially to the "proud" erect posture the kids were adopting.
I'm not sure if he was right to attribute it to that, but perhaps just getting in the habit of holding yourself properly erect and head up really *does* make a difference in your attitude. What do you think?
141. chloel - June 25, 1999 - 12:24 PM PT
I think carriage almost always affects how people feel about themselves, and *always* affects how other people react. I'm not surprised that learning to stand up gracefully helped kids.
I'd give a lot of credit to your goal of ending everything with a success, and explaining to the kids how to improve their stances, too. It's easier to be proud when you have something to be proud of.
joezan, that's an impressive program.
142. HardyHarHar - June 25, 1999 - 12:49 PM PT
"9. CalGal - June 22, 1999 - 10:02 AM PT
Well, I'm either 3, 4, or 6 on that list, depending on what you call me."
Stupid bitch?
Well, that wasn't on the list, but what the hell.
Since we're talking about the list...it was obvious to me that the list of occupations was not in any order of rank (satisfaction? compensation?) rather, a random string of occupations. How else could you explain the following:
87. Cashier
88. Symphony conductor
89. Computer operator
These occupations share nothing in terms of longevity, satisfaction, eduation level, compensation, pride, intellectual stimulation, availability, numbers of people currently employed as, or any other characteristic that springs to the fore.
As per usual, the forum has become yet another opportunity to "CalGal" to fart everywhere about uninteresting, self-conflating, nihilist bullshit.
143. 109109 - June 25, 1999 - 1:04 PM PT
Wow. To go back over a hundred posts to get that angry.
A see a three day bender, much swilling of Woolite, and much muttering.
144. HardyHarHar - June 25, 1999 - 2:03 PM PT
Well, you see that's what happens when you make ASS-sumptions...
I didn't "go back"...I started from the begining, and scrolling down the first hundered I couldn't help but notice a large proportion of inch-columns under the "CalGal" moniker...babbling on and on and fucking on about whatever. Shit, anyone coming to the Fray for a few minutes already knows what that human-poison oak does for a living...that's all she fucking talks about.
And who in the fuck are you?
145. ACEofSPADES - June 25, 1999 - 2:04 PM PT
HardyHarHar:
Why don't you meet me in the PlayPen, and I'll tell you who he is?
And I'll tell you who you are, too.
146. AzureNW - June 25, 1999 - 2:15 PM PT
hhmmmm...., at least now I won't be the one guilty of spoiling the mood by posting this afternoon, no matter what I post.
147. AzureNW - June 25, 1999 - 2:23 PM PT
That is an impressive youth program, joezan. Is it sponsered by a church organization, or is it publicly funded? It would be a shame if the kids were being forced to undergo religious training in an effort to conform their behavior to the standards of religious conservatives.
148. joezan - June 25, 1999 - 2:32 PM PT
Christi:
And thank you. Coincidentally, our treatment pod juvies are heavily involved in therapeutic horsemanship. Every year, beginning in early spring, they are brought to the horse farm to learn the basics, and in return they are required to muck out the barns, groom the horses, etc.
Then, following a couple of weeks training, they begin working as assistants for the mentally challenged clients who are the farm's real "customers", and occasionally are allowed to ride. This is part of their treatment plan, which is based on the Native American "Circle of Courage". They are also required to do many other "giving back to the community" sorts of things as part of the generosity component of The Circle, but this they always like the most.
My youngest sister, who became brain damaged as a result of scarlet fever as a baby, has participated in therapeutic horsemanship programs for over 10 years, both back in N.Y. and here in Michigan, and has actually won many 1st place ribbons in dressage.
BTW - every year, the first thing they work on with my sister is posture. She remembers everything else, but she is a sloucher.
149. joezan - June 25, 1999 - 2:43 PM PT
(...cont'd)
As to your question, I think it's a cause or effect thing. My sister is never so happy as when she is riding, and the improved posture carries over to her normal, everyday life for the 3 months a year she is involved. But, in retrospect, especially with the mentally challenged, treating just about any symptom seems to positively affect them in many areas. Possibly because they are more easily "fooled" into thinking they are happier?
150. AzureNW - June 25, 1999 - 2:44 PM PT
I caught a CNN story the other day about a shortage of restaraunt workers driving up food service pay rates and benefits that reminded me of how much I enjoyed being a waitress. A lot of people can't stand waiting tables, but it seemed like hosting a party to me. Even after I had learned enough accounting to find part-time office jobs during college, I found the activity of food service in a busy coffeshop more enjoyable as well as more profitable than office work.
One workplace principle that seems to hold true in every industry I've worked in is the way co-workers turn to tearing eachother down when there isn't enough work to do. I found an office full of accounting clerks with nothing to do to be a nightmare of backstabbing gossipers, but the busy atmosphere of a restaraunt doesn't leave anyone much time or energy for sniping. The restaraunt customers themselves give food severs a hard time, but it doesn't seem as personal and annoying to me as being harrassed by a bored and bitchy co-worker day after day.
151. joezan - June 25, 1999 - 2:57 PM PT
Azure:
I think I mentioned that this is a county run facility. And while many Church sponsored groups do volunteer alot of their time with our youths, the kids are not required to participate, and we are actually required to provide alternative programming at those times. Even so, the activities the Church groups provide usually contain no religious elements, and are usually more fun than what we provide. So, we have never had a kid refuse.
152. CHristipEtERS - June 25, 1999 - 3:01 PM PT
joezan -
You are in Michigan?
I was raised in Michigan. In fact it was the Cheff Center in Michigan which got me interested in theraputic riding. I thought it was the perfect way to combine my love of horses with my love of people and accomplish something helpful at the same time.
153. joezan - June 25, 1999 - 3:01 PM PT
Azure:
And, by golly, the irony of your question just smacked me in the face as I re-read this part of my post:
" This is part of their treatment plan, which is based on the Native American "Circle of Courage"."
154. AzureNW - June 25, 1999 - 3:07 PM PT
Admirable occupation, joezan. It sounds like rewarding work, too, and it must be a lot of fun to be around the kids most of the time.
155. AzureNW - June 25, 1999 - 3:12 PM PT
What's a Native American Circle of Courage?
156. joezan - June 25, 1999 - 3:18 PM PT
Christi:
I'm in the southwestern lower penninsula - haven't heard of Cheff's. But then, I'm not a horsey guy, myself, although another of my sisters owns a farm not far from here, and has 2 horses - one of which she bought from Terrible Ted Nugent. He's a beauty (the horse - not Ted) - a Thoroughbred-Irish Draught mix, and as big as a Clydesdale.
157. joezan - June 25, 1999 - 3:44 PM PT
Azure:
Well, it's pretty complicated to explain here, so
Go Here
We also run an off-sight, after school program which is based entirely on the Circle, where kids make mandellas, totems, and are required to attend pow-wows.
158. uzmakk - June 27, 1999 - 1:06 PM PT
Egad!!! I'm on the list, #92, bookbinder.
159. pellenilsson - June 27, 1999 - 1:11 PM PT
Tell us more uzmakk.
160. uzmakk - June 27, 1999 - 1:13 PM PT
Ethiopian(o):
I have questions for you. They are not simple. I must give you adequate information. I hope to have time some day to ask you some questions regarding the restaurant business.
161. uzmakk - June 27, 1999 - 1:32 PM PT
I will Pelle, but first I must work up a post worthy of my profession, not just as it is, but as I wish it could be. Satisfactions, dissatisfactions, description of the premises, the cast Iron machinery, the climate controlled conditions, the new windows, the company for which I work, ofcourse you already know about the Boreal Corner, and I owe you a post on House and Garden thread which I shall post soon. Have you been over there at all? I don't know if you have read any of my posts. I don't think H&G is one of your usual hangouts.
162. pellenilsson - June 27, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
uzmakk
Fascinating. Maybe your employer has a copy of Francis Bacon's 'New Atlantis'.
I do vist H&G because sometimes cmboyce and I talk about birds there (I talk, he answers patiently).
163. ethiopianeunuch - June 27, 1999 - 1:46 PM PT
Ask anytime uzmakk. I'll watch for your questions and respond as best I can.
Pell.- I liked that word you used, optimisation. I think the thing that I try to optimize is labor. How much can I afford to let someone else do? How much do I need to do myself and how much labor does it really take to service the custorme properly? Food costs and overhead can be figured percentage wise as long as the volume is consisstant(which it never is).
164. uzmakk - June 27, 1999 - 1:49 PM PT
Yes, Pelle, and ofcourse if they do not have one, they will attempt to procure one. I suppose I am a very casual birder, but a birder nonetheless. I believe that I once mentioned that my entire borough is a bird sanctuary.
165. pellenilsson - June 27, 1999 - 2:04 PM PT
I'm a causual birder too. If it amuses you, you can check out my #2658-9, cmboyce's #2731-6 and my #2753-4, all in H&G.
Getting late. Checking out.
166. uzmakk - June 28, 1999 - 4:53 AM PT
Pelle:
Visited the bird exchange, listened to a number of the calls, very enjoyable indeed. wrt New Atlantis -- I have read it as I told you earlier, incorporated it as the Borg incorporate, and feel no need to discuss it any further, but would be happy to do so on the book thread some day when events bring old memories forth..
I am grateful to you for pointing it out to me. I recall your noting the description of the costumes. Good ideas for Halloween costumes. I was considering being Virgilius, the Sorcerer of Rome, this year, but being a New Atlantian scientist would be equally good.
167. pellenilsson - June 28, 1999 - 12:59 PM PT
ethiopianeunuch
I'm genuinely interested in the restaurant business. Every time I have a meal in one I think about the mechanics involved. And the planning, which must rely very much on personal experience and personal touch.
You said that for you, a main issue is that of labour. How much you can do yourself and how much you must rely on hired staff. There must be a great temptation to take too much on yourself which would increase earnings but risk a personal burn-out, and/or an unsatisfactory service level. I guess you have escaped that because you have been in the business for a long time. But I also remember a post where you said you work 50-60 hours a week.
Now to my question. Could you please describe a typical day in your business?
168. uzmakk - June 28, 1999 - 2:59 PM PT
I will say one thing about the restaurant business that I would ask for EEu's comment upon. A chef is more of a good kitchen manager that a good cook. To put it another way, in the real world, one can be a good chef without being a good cook, given that others are, but one cannot be a good chef without being a good kitchen manager.
169. incognito - June 29, 1999 - 10:54 AM PT
are there any people here whose job affords them international travel?
it seems that every person that i run into with such a job actually complains about it
170. uzmakk - June 29, 1999 - 11:24 AM PT
That, Incognito, is because travelling on business is a frigging pain in the ass.
171. pellenilsson - June 29, 1999 - 11:41 AM PT
incognito
I'm off to Dublin tomorrow for two days. In September I will probably be in Mozambique. I occasionally complain too, but I wouldn't like to be without the travel. I think that goes for most people in my situation. But it's sort of 'chic' to grumble and it's also a kind of upmanship I think.
172. incognito - June 29, 1999 - 11:47 AM PT
pelle and uzmak
i have of course heard of the travelling abroad that involves ONLY business, like flying to Europe for meetings for 2 solid days and then heading right back home. But I have to believe that occassionally there is time for sightseeing and such?
pelle, I'd love to visit that part of Africa but isn't Mozambique still in a civil war? or is only part of the country "off limits?"
173. FreetoChoose - June 30, 1999 - 3:40 PM PT
incognito
I'm off to London next Monday. Will be there until Friday. In meetings every day, but not an unusually intense schedule. Some trips are better than others. Last month, I managed to squeeze in a couple hours at the British Museum, so that was quite nice. I also managed to drop in for an evening at an actuarial lecture, but I'll understand if not everyone views this as a highlight.
I've enjoyed my trips to Guernsey and Monte Carlo, but one of my least “fun” trips was a miserable week in Bermuda, so it all depends.
174. FreetoChoose - June 30, 1999 - 3:47 PM PT
pellenilsson
“But it's sort of 'chic' to grumble and it's also a kind of upmanship I think.”
I'm sure there's a bit of that, but some of it is a reaction to people who think that travel must just be wonderful. (I'd love to tell my Bermuda story, but this isn't quite the right thread. Unless someone asked.)
Anyone who travels a lot and *always* has miserable trips should change their job. But everyone I know who travels a lot has had a number of miserable trips, others that were far less exciting than they sounded. At my previous job, some people had to spend a month in the Cayman Islands each year. While it wasn't exactly jail time, it was far less glamorous than many people assumed.
175. robertjayb - June 30, 1999 - 4:47 PM PT
FTC,
So tell the Bermuda story. Sheesh.
Armchair travelers want to know.
Thank you.
176. FreetoChoose - July 1, 1999 - 6:40 AM PT
robertjayb
Hey thanks for asking.
Our Bermuda office needed help, and asked me to come down for a week. I was in Chicago at the time. It was impossible to get to Bermuda from Chicago in one day, so I left Sunday afternoon and flew to Baltimore. I requested a wakeup call, but they forgot. I woke up 20 minutes before my flight was scheduled. If I missed it, there wouldn't be another flight until the next day. I called down to the front desk, told them to get a cab immediately, and threw on clothes, without showering, and raced downstairs. The hotel was adjacent to the airport. I finished dressing in the cab and raced OJ style through the airport, arriving at my gate as they were closing the door. I managed to get on the flight, but I had not showered, and I was sweating like a pig, so I had to apologize profusely to the unlikely person in the next seat.
I arrived at the Bermuda airport in a heat wave. It usually doesn't get above the 80's, but it was in the high nineties. I took a cab directly to our office, to learn that the air conditioning had failed. We worked on the project from the time I arrived until 11 pm that evening, with sandwiches ordered in for lunch and dinner. Normally I stayed at the Bermudiana hotel, which was air conditioned, but I was trying to be frugal and decided to stay at a local guest house. It was acceptable, but had no air conditioning. I didn't sleep well in the heat, but got up at 7 to head to the office by 8. It was only a half mile walk, but my shirt was drenched by the time I got to the office. Air conditioning still not working. We worked Tuesday until 1 am, then home and back in the morning. Wednesday the same routine, as we had to deliver the news to the client on Thursday. Thursday was a bit better, as we were at the client's office, and they had air conditioning, but we were also telling the client that they had problems on the order of tens of millions
177. FreetoChoose - July 1, 1999 - 6:41 AM PT
continued
of dollars.
Never pleasant.
Then I excused myself from the meeting to catch a cab to the airport, and fly home. I arrived in Chicago about midnight, got to sleep at 1:30 in the morning, and dragged myself out of bed to get to my office Friday morning. As I walk into the office, my secretary greets me with, “Oh you've been in Bermuda all week. Lucky you.”
Needless to say, I didn't feel that way.
178. phillipdavid - July 1, 1999 - 9:45 AM PT
So the lesson is: don't be frugal. A night at the Bermuda Hotel with air conditioning would have been a value way beyond its cost, right?
179. robertjayb - July 1, 1999 - 1:33 PM PT
Well, FTC, guess I'll not be envious of
that grim trip.
My image of Bermuda is as a place clean,
cool, and bright with green lawns, white
fences, and lots of flowers.
Maybe not....
180. ranheim - July 2, 1999 - 9:44 AM PT
Travel was, in general, great when I was an USAF Flight Surgeon. I recall one trip to Thailand. We were in a cargo plane (C130) so that was not "The Ritz". We landed at Udorn in N. Thailand with 2 engines feathered. It is illegal to take off that way; so we had to come up with a "cure". One of the Dispensary Nurse's was along for the ride. Eventually the Flight Mechanic used one of her bobby pins as a cotter key to get us off the ground. The now-empty C130 could fly very nicely on 2 engines; and we completed the trip to Bangkok with the "cotter key engine" feathered once off the ground. As I recall, it took us 5 days to get 2 engines from Okinawa; replace the 2 that were faulty; and fly home. R & R in a great Oriental city in the '60s!
Incidently, the nurse had her butt chewed by our boss on return. She was not on flying status. Not one word was said to me as flying was a portion of a Flight Surgeon's job description!
181. uzmakk - July 2, 1999 - 12:43 PM PT
Very enjoyable stories.
T'was a good day, I sent off a box for a first edition of Alice in Wonderland.
But t'was a better day when I sent off the box for the first edition of Alice in Wonderland signed by Alice.
182. colossus - July 2, 1999 - 12:46 PM PT
Uzzie:
Whatever your line is, if you are thinking of a career in international relations -
keep your day job.
183. uzmakk - July 2, 1999 - 1:08 PM PT
I'm a bookbinder, jexster colosusssss. International relations????
Pleaaaaaase explain.
184. uzmakk - July 2, 1999 - 1:40 PM PT
Are you suggesting that international relations are left up to people of your caliber Colo. I will grant that much of the world is a frightening mess, but why should we make them deal with a mess of our own. The old act the madman routine. The old "We have nuclear weapons and Ronald Reagan has no brain" routine. I don't believe in the "Meet Madman with Madman" (MMMMM)theory of international relations. It is a danger to the Empire.
International relations. Hummmmmm, you have given me something to think about, Jexster Colossus. International relations, yes.
185. uzmakk - July 2, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
Are you suggesting that international relations are left up to people of your caliber Colo. I will grant that much of the world is a frightening mess, but why should we make them deal with a mess of our own. The old act the madman routine. The old "We have nuclear weapons and Ronald Reagan has no brain" routine. I don't believe in the "Meet Madman with Madman" (MMMMM)theory of international relations. It is a danger to the Empire.
International relations. Hummmmmm, you have given me something to think about, Jexster Colossus. International relations, yes.
186. ScottLoar - July 2, 1999 - 3:48 PM PT
Incognito, I've logged 90K+ miles from 1 Jan. 1999 to the present, all but 4K international. Hey, it comes with the territory, it's part and parcel of how I make my money.
Yours in mufti,
ScottLoar
187. joezan - July 2, 1999 - 4:07 PM PT
Business Trips I've Taken This Year:
Kalamazoo - 3 days.
Indianapolis - 3 days.
Detroit - 1 day.
Milwaukee - 5 days.
Omaha - 5 days.
Hey! Go ahead and chuckle...
At least *I* don't have to worry about jet-lag...
188. uzmakk - July 3, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
NO, IRVING, NO, PLEASE, NOT YET, I WAS GOING TO DANCE ON THIS THREAD.
189. ethiopianeunuch - July 3, 1999 - 2:06 PM PT
uzmakk:
Your take on chefs is right on. I tend not to hire people who refer to themselves as "chefs" because often they can't cook. I'm a cook who owns a restaurant. The three cooks who work for me have a combined 85 years experience.
I'd like to respond more to pell when I have time to post which lately is next to immpossible with my busy schedule and the Fray moving so darn slow lately!
190. uzmakk - July 4, 1999 - 10:37 AM PT
Fine, ethiopian. So you are the chef in your operation, and you can cook too, and you are wary of those who call themselves chefs because they may not be "working chefs", and, be honest, they probably want more money, too.. But if you wanted to keep your current business,and move to PA and be the chef in my restaurant you would have to hire a "chef" in the sense of "kitchen manager", rather than in the sense of "creative cook". Yes?
PS. I have no restaurant in PA. We are speaking purely in hypotheticals, though I know of little that is as real and down and dirty as the restaurant business.
191. pellenilsson - July 4, 1999 - 11:37 AM PT
I join uzmakk in asking Irv for a reprieve. I'm at the end of a 9.6 K connection now (cellular) which combined with "the problems" makes it almost impossible to keep in touch. At 20 cents per minute it's just too expensive. Not that I'm paying myself but an accountant's raised eyebrows also carry a cost of sorts.
192. uzmakk - July 4, 1999 - 4:53 PM PT
I am posting here because it takes most of on hour for me to get onto the Fray. Surely we have been struck by the Molassas virus. Pelle, did you see my post on Campaign 2000 regarding damaging information that I have concerning Sec of State, Pellenillson. Wish someone would respond. Ready for some fun?
Lost a big post on WWI this morning, it was all my and my computer's fault.
Made a post on Corner saying that one would have to be desperate to keep posting during these technical difficulties. Msit, answered, and said that the Fray is like opium. Perhaps she is right. Would post on topic now but am being dragged from my Fropium den to see the fireworks.
.
193. pellenilsson - July 5, 1999 - 10:50 AM PT
uzmakk
I'll be out of touch this week. See Travel (if I manage to post). Will be back for the weekend IF current problems are solved by then. Please publish your 'damaging information' in a suitable Thread.
Are you really a bookbinder? I find that fascinating.
194. uzmakk - July 6, 1999 - 4:57 AM PT
I am indeed a bookbinder, Pelle. I wouldn't think to describe this aspect of my "work" except for Message #182 by Jexster Colossus. I actually get to handle books and papers that have been handled by great men and women, kings and queens, scientists and artists, etc., etc. Have had books from Napoleon's library, Queen Elizabeth's library, and 50% of the great modern literary, scientific, and artistic figures. Now, when one actually works physically in the midst of all of these artifacts of the intellect, and if one is properly atuned, there is an osmotic effect that takes place which allows a person of below average intelligence, such as myself, to converse with people of above average intelligence, like many on the Fray.
195. uzmakk - July 6, 1999 - 3:44 PM PT
I think what the world needs, Pelle, is a finely bound, signed, limited edition of Pellenillson's Concise History of Sweden.
196. ethiopianeunuch - July 7, 1999 - 9:42 PM PT
uz:
Down and dirty, I like that. I just got done working 16 hours of down and dirty grunty cooking. 23 days straight most of them 12 hours or more. It has a tendincy to have a narcotic like effect after a while. Its fun to see how long you can go. I NEVER reffer to myself as a chef but If a kitchen has to have one then I'm him.
My business is about production and not ambiance. We sell food to people who want to get fed and have loud waitresses to make you want to leave as soon as you've eaten. We thrive on oil refinery disasters and the local refiners are really quite good at providing them.
197. uzmakk - July 8, 1999 - 4:38 AM PT
Ethiopian:
Cool. I can see it. My work also, is really about production. I produce an item , a protective leather spined box that looks like a book, that constitutes 95% of my work. I does get tedious so I must pass my days singing work songs as did the field hands and the slaves. (musical notes -- I'm the jolly bookman, working all the day, with a yo-ho-ho and a hee-hee-hey -- musical notes). I also get to listen to books on tape and music all the do-da-day.
I must stay away from the Fray because it is too easy to slip in and post messages. You can imagine what would happen in your business if, in the middle of a rush, you decided to go and post a message on the Fray because you had a strong desire to straighten out one fool or another.
198. wexxford1 - July 8, 1999 - 5:19 AM PT
ethiop -. Have you ever cooked a big feed for Johnny 'Fatboy' Apple of the New York Times ? The chief corr. spends all his time in restaurants now,and his bloat indicates he never saw a feed he didn't ingest . What about the phony food journalism ? Never saw an article telling readers that the chef pissed in the soup, now did you ?
Are these food writers paid off in meals ? Or cash?
199. wexxford1 - July 8, 1999 - 5:21 AM PT
uzmak man. You bind old books and then sell them as the real thing / You ought to be horsewhipped . So you are the Christies supplier of golden oldies ! I should have known .
200. uzmakk - July 8, 1999 - 12:49 PM PT
Old books have to be rebound, Wexxford. There's no secret about it. Though I've tried to sneak stuff past the guys at Christies, an early set of the Marquis de Sade bound in hot pink leather that I claimed was original, for instance, they have always caught me.
201. JJBiener - July 8, 1999 - 12:59 PM PT
uzmakk - How do you charge customers for rebinding? Also I am not clear what service you actually provide. Do you actually repair or replace the binding or do you create a box that resembles a book and the book is stored inside. I have dozens of books over 100 years old, some of which need to be rebound. I curious as to how much it would cost.
202. uzmakk - July 9, 1999 - 6:52 AM PT
I am capable of doing it all, Mr. Biener, but can't accept new work. Too busy. Seems I must turn my little Gepeto workshop into a factory. I should be joyous, shouldn't I?
203. ethiopianeunuch - July 9, 1999 - 11:04 PM PT
Wexford:
My restaurant has never been reviewed in any paper in over 20 years.I think this is because we don't advertise in anything and they only review people who buy space. These reviewers are probably well known when they walk in and rarely get regular treatment. You can believe that the kitchen quality can vary from plate to plate depending on the customer. So be nice to the cook :-)