1402. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 8:34 PM PT
You make Urdu and Hindi seem like British English and American English. There are more differences than that.
1403. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 8:55 PM PT
PE:
"You make Urdu and Hindi seem like British English and American English. There are more differences than that."
Not really, in the common spoken language. I'm currently trying to find a source for the exact level of overlap. From what I know, I think that it is close to 95%. The literary languages are a very different story, though only because of lexicon. Perhaps defining it this way is clearer: they are the same language at the spoken level, but are two separate languages at the literary level.
The divergences in grammar and phonology are minor. In fact, phonologically, Hindi and Urdu are closer than American and British English, as they share the same phoneme set (unlike Am and Br English).
I have only been able to find a few grammatical differences, such as:
• In Perso-Arabic borrowings, High Urdu keeps the Perso-Arabic plural markers.
• In general, Urdu speakers use the masculine plural forms of verbs as indifferentiated for gender in the first person.
I'm sure there are others, but they are minor, and do not affect communication.
1404. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:06 PM PT
Message #1403
Um, perhaps you can tell me how Hindi is different from Urdu, rather than how Urdu is different from Hindi. You don't have to tell me about Urdu grammar; it's Hindi I don't know.
1405. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:11 PM PT
I said: "You make Urdu and Hindi seem like British English and American English. There are more differences than that."
Snirv replied: "Not really, in the common spoken language."
What do you mean "not really"? Hindi and Urdu are of course mutually intelligible languages, but there are more differences between the two than between British and American English. This is self-evident. No Brit asks an American to repeat or explain what he just said, or to ask what a word means. This happens between Urdu and Hindi speakers. I've seen it and heard it myself. "Not really" !
1406. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:14 PM PT
I'm not saying that such a request happens with every sentence, but it happens often enough in a protracted conversation that saying that Urdu and Hindi are closer to each other than British English and American English are close to each other, is just nonsense.
1407. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:20 PM PT
PE:
My source is the article on Hindi-Urdu in Comrie. The author, Yamuna Kachru of the University of Illinois, says at the beginning "The two languages differ in minor ways in their sound system, morphology and syntax. These differences are pointed out at appropriate places below." The two examples I gave are the only places I noticed where she pointed out a difference. Other than that, the only differences I noted in the article were lexical, and of course the writing system.
I found this romanized Urdu Dictionary. A quick glance seems to confirm that there are more Perso-Arabic loan words than I have been led to believe in the literary language (the dictionary appears to have been developed to appreciate poetry and song lyrics).
Kachru says "[the original Hindustani which developed in the 8th to 10th centuries] had a preponderance of borrowings from Arabic and Persian. Consequently, it was also known as rextaa 'mixed language.' The speech of the indigenous population, though influenced by Persian and Arabic, remained relatively free from large-scale borrowings from these foreign languages."
I have no idea what she means by "preponderance" or "large-scale."
1408. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:25 PM PT
The reason I said "not really" is that, phonologically, Hindi and Urdu are closer than Am and Br English.
The reason a breakdown in communication occurs is because of the differing lexical inventories of the languages. I am still trying to find a source for just how much overlap there is at the spoken level. I think we can assume that the languages diverge more and more as language becomes more literary, meaning that educated speakers have more difficulty communicating than uneducated speakers.
1409. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:29 PM PT
I think both sides are also into some kind of denial about their languages, in the interests of national identity. I just came across a "History of Hindi" on the internet which makes no mention of the Islamic invasion of India, but rather regards Hindi as a direct descendant of Sanskrit. This, of course, is nonsense.
1410. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:32 PM PT
Snirv: Look, I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT saying that the differences between Hindi and Urdu in grammar, morphology and phonology are great. But the differences, especially lexical, are enough that a speaker of Urdu has not the same ease with a speaker of Hindi as a Brit has with an American in a protracted conversation.
Of course, it is possible that I am influenced by Pakistani propaganda.
As for the Urdu dictionary you found on-line, it appears at a quick glance to be filled entirely with ordinary, everyday words. If it is meant to further the appreciation of Urdu poetry and lyrics, then it's contemporary poetry & lyrics that they're talking about, the kind found in insufferable ululations.
1411. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:34 PM PT
PE:
Here is an interesting Word List which compares English, Hindi-Urdu, and Pashto-Pashtu-Pukhtu.
I'd be interested in your feedback on how many of the words in the Hindi-Urdu list (there is no differentiation) are actually used in Urdu. I'd be interested in Marj's feedback on the same for Hindi (or anyone else who has actually used these languages).
1412. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:37 PM PT
PE:
"But the differences, especially lexical, are enough that a speaker of Urdu has not the same ease with a speaker of Hindi as a Brit has with an American in a protracted conversation."
I certainly agree with this.
Btw, the Hindi-Urdu word list above is of everyday terms, and a glance reveals that most words are of Indo-Aryan origin, with a sizeable number (one-third?) being of Perso-Arabic origin.
1413. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:38 PM PT
My Message #1410 was written in response to Message #1407.
I can agree with Message #1408. In my experience, the times when Hindi and Urdu speakers have the fewest problems, or none, are in utilitarian conversations, or in a fleeting exchange of pleasantries, or at restaurants, or through media like movies, whose language is not very sophisticated.
1414. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
Marj is going to love this one. This is a site filled with links to Hindi, Urdu, and Sanskrit resources. There's even a section on "Indo-European" and another on "Hindi Humor," which I always thought was an oxymoron.
The Indo-European links look interesting, though I haven't tried them. There is information on Avestan, among other things.
1415. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:51 PM PT
Message #1411
Amazing! Why does this man interest himself in Pashto, of all things?
All the Urdu/Hindi words are perfectly ordinary. And a third Perso-Arabic looks right. I may later take the time to look up the etymology of each word.
1416. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:52 PM PT
Here's an interesting link I found on the Hindi links page. It is described as "Early History of the Europeans (Armenian View). Despite the fact that it sounds like something Stan Gorsian would come up with, it's a rather interesting article from Scientific American, described as "The common ancestor of these languages has been traced to Asia rather than to Europe, the authors say. The once-clear distinction between the family's Eastern and Western branches is now blurred."
I may have to rethink everything I previously believed about the Indo-Europeans.
1417. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:54 PM PT
Amazing site, Snirv. Just the section on Urdu poetry is tremendous!
1418. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 9:59 PM PT
There is a history of Hindi and Urdu in French, which reveals that the Turkish loanword "urdu" also became "horde" in Western languages. I will translate & report other interesting parts.
1419. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 10:00 PM PT
Why does so much stuff on the internet look like it was written by and for sixth-graders?
Indo-European for Morons
1420. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 10:04 PM PT
Wow, nice piece of linguistic trivia. Turkish ordu 'camp' > English 'horde' *and* > Urdu. Sounds like the french article is better than the other links in that section. Indo-European: The Sixth Graders Strike Again.
1421. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 10:16 PM PT
The most the history of Hindi & Urdu in French says is this:
Linguistic divergences with Hindi:
The partition of British India in 1947 has contributed to making Hindi and Urdu two separate langauges, when they had been separate only in writing...[Talking about how similar the two are.] Since the partition, the differences have tended to stand out at the level of creating neologisms. Hindi tends more and more to resort to Sanskrit in order to form new words. On the other hand, Urdu would tend to get purified and borrow largely from Persian. This Persian base, itself mostly larded with Arab borrowings, remained very productive for a long time under Mughal and British rule. Even to this day, there exists a whole string of duplicate words in Hindi, one word being of Sanskrit origin and another of Arab-Persian origin. In general, Hindi will use the Sanskrit term when the tone of the language gets higher. For a concrete example, "book" in HIndi can be either "kitaab" (Arabic) or "poustak" (Sanskrit). The former is much more widely used, but one still says "poustakaalai" for a library.
1422. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 10:23 PM PT
That makes sense to me. I expect the languages will diverge more and more as time goes on.
1423. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 28, 1999 - 10:23 PM PT
Snirv (Message #1416): Could you explain what in the article prompts you to "rethink everything [you] previously believed about the Indo-Europeans"?
1424. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 28, 1999 - 10:35 PM PT
PE:
I should have said everything I previously believed about the Indo-European *homeland.*
1425. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 12:21 AM PT
Well, I just happened to glance at the back of the dictionary and discovered that all the "Greek" words are actually just scientific & technical words, obviously borrowed from English, with ultimately Greek roots. An example is "elektron". But Urdu has also managed to get itself a Persian version of the word: "bijliah". I still don't see how these make up even a measurable percentage of the language.
Some non-technical Urdu words which are Greek in origin, according to the dictionary:
ambriya (ambrosia)
pistaan (udder)
falsafah (philosophy)
nargis (vanity)
phora (abscess)
Yunani (Greek)
tamras (tamarisk)
qudrati (natural)
By the way, since the Urdu for "belly button" is "naaf" and it is Sanskrit in origin, I assume that we get our "navel" from the same source.
1426. proudnerd - Jan. 29, 1999 - 1:20 AM PT
pseudoE, Message #1405
"No Brit asks an American to repeat or explain what he just said, or to ask what a word means."
Speak for yourself. I have seen it happen both ways.
Fascinating thread nonetheless.
1427. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 2:58 AM PT
PE:
I wonder if *any* of the words on the Greek list were borrowed into Urdu from Greek. 'falsafah', 'Yunani' and 'qudrati' all arrived from Arabic, and should be classified as loan words from Arabic, although their ultimate origin is likely Greek (I checked my highly accurate etymological dictionary of Malay, where 'falsafah' and 'Yunani' are classified as loans from Arabic).
The others may have come from Greek via Persian (or Arabic again), with one note: tamras 'tamarisk,' which would appear to come from the Arabic root tamr 'date.' Compare 'tamr hindi' ('date of India' = tamarind). What is the Greek? How do we know the Greeks didn't borrow the word from Arabic as well?
Strangely enough, I have more faith in your original example of marmer 'marble,' which may well have been borrowed from Greek into Indic languages before the Islamic invasion. My Malay dictionary lists Hindi as the source language for this one in Malay (though I am inclined to think it may be Dutch).
Etymology is a fascinating science, and there is a question of whether one lists the original language or the language the word comes from directly. In general, for an individual word, one lists all the permutations back to the original. But when ascribing which words were borrowed from which languages, one looks at the source of borrowing: Urdu *didn't*, in fact, borrow 'falsafah' from the Greeks.
1428. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 3:50 AM PT
Language Quiz
I'm going to try my quiz from Message #1308 again, out here where you all can see it, and not hidden behind a link.
Here are the numbers from 1-10 in 8 Austronesian languages, from three branches. Can you group these into three groups as follows: a group of five (Sundic languages), a group of two, and a group of one?
The group of two should be easy. The single language is tougher.
I'll be back later to tell you what these languages are and the correct grouping.
Numbers in Selected Austronesian Languages
..Lang.1.. Lang.2.Lang.3..Lang.4.Lang.5....Lang.6.. Lang.7.Lang.8
1 ciek...... satu.... isa...... siji..... satu...... ‘ekahi.... hiji...... tahi
2 duo...... due..... dalawa. loro... dua....... lua........ dua...... rua
3 tigo...... telu..... tatlo.... telu.... tiga...... ‘eholu..... tilu...... toru
4 ampek... papat... apat.... papat.. empat..... ha....... opat...... wha
5 limo...... lime.... lima.... limo... lima...... lima..... lima...... rima
6 anam..... enem... anim... nenem. enam..... ono...... genep... ono
7 tujo...... pitu..... pito..... pitu.... tujuh..... hiku..... tujuh..... whitu
8 delapan.. kutes... walo... walu... delapan... walu.... dalapan.. waru
9 sembilan. siye.... siyam.. songo. sembilan. ‘eiwa... salapan... iwa
10.sepulo.. dase... sampu.. sedoso sepuluh.. ‘umi.... sapuluh. ngahuru
1429. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:04 AM PT
I really need to sleep more.
IrvingSnodgrass (Message #1427)
"I wonder if *any* of the words on the Greek list were borrowed into Urdu from Greek. 'falsafah', 'Yunani' and 'qudrati' all arrived from Arabic, and should be classified as loan words from Arabic, although their ultimate origin is likely Greek...."
Well, are there conventions about whether the immediate or the ultimate source gets the credit? Is there some reason the one is more justified than the other.
I am certain "Yunani" is a pre-Islamic word derived from "Ionian". About "falsafah" and "qudrati", I would agree with you, though I can't imagine what in Greek the latter is supposed to be ultimately taken from. But clearly the former shows Arabisation, for whereas Arabic has no P at all, the Indic languages do have an aspirated P.
"...tamras 'tamarisk,' which would appear to come from the Arabic root tamr 'date.' Compare 'tamr hindi' ('date of India' = tamarind). What is the Greek? How do we know the Greeks didn't borrow the word from Arabic as well?"
You've got things mixed up. In Urdu, "tamarind" is "imli". In English, tamarind and tamarisk have got nothing to do with each other etymologically. The Greek for "date" (as in the fruit) is "daktylos" and the root of "tamarisk" is the Greek "meriske".
1430. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:06 AM PT
By the way, I'm thinking "nargis" is just a corruption of "Narcissus".
1431. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:30 AM PT
PE:
"Well, are there conventions about whether the immediate or the ultimate source gets the credit? Is there some reason the one is more justified than the other."
As I mentioned above, if we are looking at a single word, then the entire etymology is looked at. But if we are attributing loan words to judge the influence of one language on another, the language the words are borrowed from is what counts. Sangaji's percentages are obviously the latter, and so it's misleading to indicate a large number of Greek words in Urdu (when those words have arrived via Persian, Arabic and English), but not to do the same for, say, Latin.
"I am certain "Yunani" is a pre-Islamic word derived from "Ionian"."
You mean it was borrowed before the advent of Islam in India? That, to me, is doubtful, as it has undergone no linguistic change, and is identical with the current word in Arabic (and Malay/Indonesian, for that matter).
"You've got things mixed up. In Urdu, "tamarind" is "imli". In English, tamarind and tamarisk have got nothing to do with each other etymologically. The Greek for "date" (as in the fruit) is "daktylos" and the root of "tamarisk" is the Greek "meriske"."
No, I'm aware of no etymological connection. I was merely pointing out the Arabic root 'tamr' (as found in 'tamr hindi' tamarind). According to the OED, tamarisk entered English from Latin (via French), but the source in Latin is uncertain. There is no mention of a Greek source. Which is why I postulated that perhaps the source is the Arabic 'tamr,' though I have no evidence whatsoever to back that up.
1432. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:33 AM PT
Irv,
The words in the (Hindi-Urdu)list linked in 1411 are all familiar to me, though the compiler makes several spelling errors and has the irritating habit of translating eye as "one eye", ear as "one ear" etc.
""The common ancestor of these languages has been traced to Asia rather than to Europe, the authors say. The once-clear distinction between the family's Eastern and Western branches is now blurred."
I may have to rethink everything I previously believed about the Indo-Europeans."
Irv, this theory, in various forms, is very popular now. Not least with the BJP's academic accompaniment. It seems that new evidence about the Harappan settlements also point in this direction. As you say, it means completely rethinking common belief about the Indo-European homeland.
Finally, terrific site linked in message #1414, I linked it.
Proudnerd, you surely know some sub-con language. Contribute already.
1433. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:42 AM PT
I mean, I bookmarked it.
1434. MrSocko - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:43 AM PT
Well, every schoolchild where I live would recognise Irving's language #8.
1435. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:43 AM PT
BTW, tamarind is also 'imli' in Hindi.
1436. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:48 AM PT
Some facts about Konkani from here.
"Konkani is one of sixteen languages officially recognized by the Government of India. While a tentative figure of 350 languages is generally quoted for the Indian subcontinent, the French geolinguist, Roland Breton claims that there are only 125 languages in India. Taking its name from the "Konkan" coast, Konkani boasts over 2 million speakers. It belongs to the south western branch of Indo-Aryan languages. Principally based on classical Sanskrit, the evolution of Konkani can be traced from its origins in early Primitive Indo-Aryan through Middle and New Indo-Aryan, all the way to modern vernacular forms.
Pastoral tribes from Central Asia crossed the mountain ranges of northern India in the 2nd millenium BC, bringing their languages with them. Early Indo-European languages evolved into Sanskrit. The world's first phoneticians were Sanskrit grammarians. Panini and Patanjali had already written lexicons of Sanskrit long before the Christian era. By 500 BC, Prakrits (common forms of speech) were widespread. By the middle of the 1st millenium AD, these forms of speech had changed to "Apabhramsas" ("decayed speech"). Between AD 1000-1300, the rudiments of modern Indo- European vernaculars were in place.
Historically, Konkani has been a spoken language, with comparitively little literature. Our ancestors are said to have come down from the banks of River Saraswati in Kashmir, southward to Goa, by way of Bengal. A severe drought is supposed to have been the main cause of this uprooting of our forefathers. Konkani still shows resemblance to Bengali. It is most like Marathi in its etymology."
1437. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:50 AM PT
"Konkani, like Hindi, has the following sounds:
13 "svara" (vowels) and 36 "vyanjan" (consonants)
The vowels are: a, aa, i, ee, u, oo, ri, ay, ai, o, au, ung, aha;
Consonants (articulations sounded in connection with a vowel) are arranged in 5 "vargas" (classes) in a scientific order according to the organs of speech used to produce these sounds, beginning with those situated at the very back of the throat, proceeding through the mouth and ending with the lips. The 2nd and 4th unit in each series are aspirates.
The 5 "jibhamulya" or gutturals (sounds produced in the throat by contact between the base of the tongue and the soft palate) are: k, kh, g, gh, unga
(The "unga" may be compared with the sound of 'n' in "song")
The 5 "talavya" or palatals (sounds produced by the surface of the tongue arching toward the hard palate) are: ch, chh, j, jh, nya
The 5 "murdhanya" or cerebrals (sounds produced with the tip of the tongue drawn back into the dome of the palate) are: [soft] t, th, d, dh, n
(The 't' here may be compared with the way it is used in French)
The 5 "dantya" or dentals (sounds produced by the tip of the tongue and the root of the teeth) are: [hard] t, th, d, dh, n
(The aspirated "th" is similar to the way we say "T" in English and the "n" is close to how we say 'n' in words like "stunt")
The 5 "osthya" or labials (sounds produced using the lips) are: p, ph, b, bh, m (The aspirated "ph" is the way we use "P" is English)
Besides these sounds there are 5 "antahasta" or semi-vowels (half-vowels produced by articulating the vocal cords): y, r, l, v
1438. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:51 AM PT
5 "usman" or sibilants (uttered with a hissing voice): [hard] ksh, [soft] sh, s
1 "visarga" or aspirate (sound produced by the full emission of breath): h
According to the notable linguist, Dr. S.M. Katre ("The formation of Konkani", Poona, Deccan College, 1966) a typical Konkani sentence consists of a subject and a verb. eg. Tho manishu ghara vatta (That man goes home)
Like its sister languages (such as Marathi), there is a general word order but no hard and fast rule.
eg. The following sentences all mean "Where is the string ?"
Dori khayin assa ? Khayin assa dori ? Assa khayin dori ?
(Dori = String/Rope, Khayin = Where, assa = is)
Sometimes the meaning of a sentence can change depending on which word is stressed.
Adjectives agree in number and gender with the noun they qualify. eg. "Thambdi Choli" (red blouse; feminine; singular) or "Dhave Ghode" (white horses; masculine; plural).
Many nouns derived from Sanskrit end in "u" (masculine) or "a" (neuter). Examples of the former include "Devu" from the Sankrit word "Devah" for God and "mhoru" from the Sankrit word "mayurah" for peacock. Examples of the latter include "Phala" derived from "Phalam" for fruit and "uddaaka" derived from "udakam" for water.
Konkani has been written in many scripts like Devnagiri, Kannada and Malayalam. The Roman alphabet has been used for communication in Konkani in Goa since the 16th century. However, most Konkani speakers are familiar with the Devnagiri script dating back to early forms of Sanskrit.
1439. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:57 AM PT
Though the Portuguese banned the use of Konkani in Goa, they also paradoxically helped the language develop by Romanizing the script and printing various tracts in this script. The first book ever published in an Asian language was a Konkani bible, sometime in the latter part of the sixteenth century.
1440. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 6:59 AM PT
More from the site linked in message 1436:
"In 1864, the Portuguese rulers also passed an ordinance outlawing the use of the Konkani language by the people of Goa. As a result, many of the Saraswat Brahmins fled from Goa. However, when they fled to Maharashtra, Karnataka, and Kerala, they decided that it would be better to perfect themselves in the languages of these states: Marathi, Kannada, and Malayalam, respectively. Since these languages would be used in the government and business affairs of each state, they recognized the importance of learning them to be successful. Subjected to all of these social factors, Konkani began to lose value in relation to these other languages. Especially in the states of Maharashtra and Karnataka, Konkani became subordinated to Marathi and Kannada respectively. This unfortunate situation also brought about one of the most remarkable characteristics of the Konkani speaking people which has survived to the present day. This characteristic is that the necessity of learning these new languages had coerced many Konkani speaking people to be either trilingual or even multilingual.
Another effect of these migrations from Goa into these different states is that many new words have been adopted into the Konkani language. The Saraswat Brahmins who migrated into Maharashtra adopted many vocabulary words and phrases from Marathi. The Konkani Muslims of Bhatkal have assimilated many Persian and Arabic words into the language. The Konkani speaking people who were converted to Roman Catholic Christians assimilated a great deal of Portuguese vocabulary into the language. Likewise, much vocabulary from Malayalam has been inserted into the Konkani of the Saraswat Brahmins who migrated to Kerala. The Konkanis in Kerala even pronounce their words with a "malayalee accent"5. Many Kannada words have been borrowed by the Konkani speaking people who moved to Karnataka. "
1441. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:00 AM PT
Message #1431
Perhaps you have the Indonesian edition of the OED. Not only does it list "müriske", it is a word which occurs about a hundred times in Homer. (Georg Autenrieth, A Homeric Dictionary)
"You mean it was borrowed before the advent of Islam in India? That, to me, is doubtful, as it has undergone no linguistic change..."
Who says it has undergone no linguistic change? The Greek word is "Ionios". You seem perfectly willing to believe that "marmar" is a pre-Islamic loanword.
"...and is identical with the current word in Arabic (and Malay/Indonesian, for that matter)."
I thought the word for "Greek" in Arabic was "Rumi". At least that's what it says in the glossary of my Classical & Quranic Arabic grammar.
1442. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:04 AM PT
Message #1432
Which spelling errors does he make?
1443. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:05 AM PT
Marj:
A few notes on your Konkani phonology:
1) "ung" and "aha" are not vowels. They are vowel + consonant. Their presence among the vowels dates back to the "special status" given these combinations by Sanskrit grammarians (they have their own graphemes in the writing, too).
2) of your "jibhamulya" sounds, "unga" is more properly represented (in this #$*@% format anyway) as "ng"
3) your""murdhanya" or cerebral" sounds are properly termed *retroflex* sounds
4) I like the way your source describes the dental "n" as being similar to the n in "stunt." Quite apt.
5) Of your "usman" sounds, "ksh" is a consonant cluster, not a separate phonetic unit (although it has its own grapheme).
Thank you for presenting this information. But I note it doesn't mention case in Konkani. What is the case situation in Konkani, anyway? How are nouns marked for direct, oblique, singular, plural, etc.?
1444. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:13 AM PT
Some better spellings than in the list Irv linked:
eye= 'ankh'
tooth='dant'
blood='khoon'
rain='barish'
fire='aag'
eggplant='baingan'
garlic='leshun'
woman='aurat'
There are some other minor quibbles.
1445. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:21 AM PT
Irv,
I have to admit I don't know what cases are, really. But I'm pretty sure Konkani would use the same system as Hindi.
1446. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:27 AM PT
Marzipranks: Case endings are changes at the end of the word which indicate the function of that word in the sentence.
In Urdu/Hindi,
makan (house) would be in the "direct case"
makano me (in the houses) would be in the "oblique case".
1447. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:28 AM PT
"makanõ m˜e"
would be more accurate
1448. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:35 AM PT
PE:
In my OED (Second Edition, 1991), the etymology for tamarisk is "[ad. late L. tamariscus (Palladius), var. of tamarix, -icem, whence F. tamaris (13th c.), also in 16th c. tamarisc, tamarix. Ulterior source of the L. name unknown.]"
In the definition section, the following is mentioned: "A plant of the genus Tamarix, esp. T. gallica, the common tamarisk (called in L. myrica, in Gr. myrikh [if I am transliterating properly]),..." This is the only mention of Greek.
"I thought the word for "Greek" in Arabic was "Rumi". At least that's what it says in the glossary of my Classical & Quranic Arabic grammar."
All I know is that the form in Malay is "Yunani," which is attributed to Arabic. Perhaps this is in error and it should be attributed to Hindi or Persian, in which case your theory fits much better.
1449. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:38 AM PT
In Persian, Greek = Yonani
1450. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:38 AM PT
Oh, I see, Konkani uses the exact same cases as Hindi as far as I know.
1451. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:43 AM PT
PE:
I'll write to the editors of my Malay dictionary. I am now convinced that Malay borrowed the word either from Persian or Hindi/Urdu. And, to me, that makes your theory of a pre-Islamic borrowing of "Ionian" by Persian very likely.
1452. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 7:56 AM PT
Perhaps Dillon or Hashke could confirm whether "Rumi" is the word for "Greek" in modern standard Arabic.
I should really buy an Arabic dictionary, which I think I will do this weekend. Any recommendations?
By the way, "Rumi" -- the word for "Greek" in the classical Arabic lexicon -- reminds us that in late antiquity and early middle ages, the empire in Constantinople was called Rome, NOT the "Byzantine Empire", which is a designation of 19th century historiography. Notice that Gibbon's "Decline and Fall" goes all the way up to 1453.
1453. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:22 AM PT
PE:
"Yunani" doesn't sound like an Arabic word, anyway. It's much more likely that "Rumi" is the correct word.
Marj:
For a presentation of Hindi/Urdu cases, see PE's Message #1170, and my Message #1192 and Message #1201. I would be surprised if the Konkani system is exactly the same, since Konkani is in a separate branch of Indo-Aryan, but it will be similar.
1454. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:33 AM PT
Irv,
This stuff is a bit over my head, especially since I have no reference material at all on hand. However, after reading upon the various cases I'd say that spoken Konkani (in Goa) utilizes nominative, genitive, and dative cases. There may be others used in writing, and in the versions spoken in different parts of the country.
1455. marjoribanks - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:34 AM PT
up on
1456. hashke - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:34 AM PT
The modern Arabic word for Greek is 'yuunaanii'. The Greek language is 'alyuunaaniiya'. My Oxford English-Arabic Dictionary of Current Usage does not cite 'rumi' under 'Greek'.
The doubled vowel letters merely denote long, rather than short, vowel sounds.
1457. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:54 AM PT
Well, W. M. Thackston, in the glossary of "An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic" defines "ar-ruum" as Greeks, Hellas, Byzantium, Anatolians
"ruumiyy" as Greek, Hellene, Byzantine, Anatolian
"Ruumi" is attested by both Fouad Ajami and Bernard Lewis, both eminent Middle East historians.
1458. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 8:57 AM PT
hashké:
Thanks! Well so much for that theory. Perhaps the word entered Arabic from Persian.
1459. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:01 AM PT
Hahahaha. OK, I'll let you two duke this one out, and stay on the sidelines, hiding my ignorance of Arabic.
1460. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:04 AM PT
So much for the theory! Hah!
Peoples and Languages in the Pre-Islamic Indus Valley.
"The Urdu word for Greek is Yunani (Yunani Tib = Greek medicine). This is 'derived from the Persian Yauna, meaning Ionian'. [58] As the Ionian Greeks -- the Greeks settled in Ionia which is present-day Turkey -- were the first to be encountered by the Persians, they called them, and by extension all Greeks, Ionian or Yunani. From this root comes the Sanskrit word Yavana which one encounters in ancient Sanskrit sources including Panini's grammar. Thus, according to Agrawala, 'the yavanani lipi was known only in Gandahara and the north-west at Panini's time' [lipi = edict].59 This is not surprising because there were Greek settlements in the Hindu Kush even when Alexander entered that area in 327 B.C. Although Alexander did not stay long in India, he left his representatives and the Greeks established their rule in Bactria."
[58] George Woodcock, The Greeks in India (London: Faber & Faber, 1966), p. 23.
1461. hashke - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:15 AM PT
Accepted that Classical Arabic is 'rumi'.
Double checking my handy Russko-Arabskii Uchebny Slovar' (Izdatyel'stvo Sovyetskaya Entsiklopyediya, Moskva, 1964) I again find under 'gryek' the word 'yuunaanii'.
1462. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 29, 1999 - 9:22 AM PT
PE:
That looks pretty convincing.
Well, it looks like we're back to my earlier suggestion that perhaps "Yunani" was borrowed into Arabic *from* Persian.
1463. Seguine - Jan. 29, 1999 - 2:00 PM PT
""The Urdu word for Greek is Yunani (Yunani Tib = Greek medicine). This is 'derived from the Persian Yauna, meaning Ionian'. [58] As the Ionian Greeks -- the Greeks settled in Ionia which is present-day Turkey..."
I don't know whether this is at all relevant, but the Hebrew word for Greek (adj) is Y'rani.
1464. CalGal - Jan. 29, 1999 - 2:35 PM PT
Well, I'm sure that's just a chance resemblance.
1465. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 4:59 AM PT
The answers to my language quiz, first presented in Message #1308 and reposted in Message #1428.
The eight languages presented were:
1) Minangkabau (West Sumatra)
2) Balinese
3) Tagalog
4) Javanese
5) Indonesian
6) Hawaiian
7) Sundanese (West Java)
8) Maori
Socko correcdtly identified Maori, in Message #1434.
As for the classification, Minangkabau, Balinese, Javanese, Indonesian and Sundanese are grouped together in the Sundic branch of Austronesian. Hawaiian and Maori are East Polynesian languages, and Tagalog represents the Philippine branch.
1466. LadyChaos - Jan. 30, 1999 - 8:21 PM PT
pseudoerasmus,
You asked a while back if Czech still has a case system. While I'm still not sure what you mean, I'll try to give some examples.
dum (house) as in, "That house."
v domech (in the houses).
holka (girl); holky (girls); s holkou (with a/the girl); s holkama (with the girls).
Praha (Prague), as in, "Prague is a city."
Prahy (to or from Prague), as in, "I'm going to Prague," or, "He is from Prague."
v praze (in Prague)
Prazsky (adjective meaning "of Prague"), as in, "Prague beer."
Is this the drift of what you were asking about?
1467. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 8:34 PM PT
LadyChaos:
Check out my Message #1272 for a description of Czech's case system. It has 7 cases, which is one more than Russian, and one more than Czech's closely related sister language, Slovak.
1468. LadyChaos - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:17 PM PT
Irving,
Yes, that's correct. I never studied it formally, but that is how I understand it. It's also true with proper nouns.
Vy jste pan Havel - Are you Mr. Havel?
Dobry den, pane Havle - Good day, Mr. Havel.
Jsem s panem Havlem - I'm with Mr. Havel.
Budu bez Havla - I will be without Havel.
Jedu do panu Havlovi - I'm going (by train, bus, car) to Mr. Havel's.
Jsem Eva - I am Eva
Jdu bez Evy - I am going without Eva.
Jdu k Eve (Ev-ee-eh) - I'm going to Eva's.
Mluvim o Eve - I'm talking about Eva.
Ahoj, Evo! Ahoj, Evy / Evicko - Hello, Eva!
Jdu s Evou - I'm going with Eva.
1469. LadyChaos - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:23 PM PT
Here's one that drives me nuts:
pes - dog
Jdu bez psa - I'm going (walking) without the dog.
Jdu k psovi - I'm going to the dog.
Vidim psa - I see the dog.
Pse, posad' se - Dog, sit down.
Povidam o tom psovi - I'm talking about the dog.
Jdu se psem - I'm going (walking) with the dog.
1470. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:26 PM PT
Thanks for the examples, LadyC.
I sometimes think that one of the reasons for English's success as a world language is that it is one of a minority of Indo-European languages *without* a case system. Case systems work fine for native speakers, but they don't make a language easy for learners.
1471. LadyChaos - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:29 PM PT
Part of the reason that Czech has so many cases (so Eva reminds me) is that the Hapsburgs banned Czech as a language of letters for three-hundred years, and it didn't evolve like other languages. When Czech scholars began to revive the language in the late 19th-century, they looked to the Czech bible of the 15th or 16th century for the rules of grammar. If you can imagine something like that happening, for example, with English, you kind of get the idea of why the language is such a museum piece.
1472. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:37 PM PT
Interesting observation, LadyC. Usually when languages have no official status, they evolve even more quickly. But in a case like this, an older form of the language becomes the standard, and the language in effect returns to an earlier form. I wonder if there are any other examples of this happening (other than Hebrew, which was revived as a living language after centuries in hibernation).
1473. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 30, 1999 - 9:44 PM PT
The discussion about Mongols in the PotM thread reminded me of a little known linguistic fact. When the Mongols overran Eurasia, they changed the linguistic landscape, pushing the Turkish languages (related to Mongol, but of a separate branch) out of Central Asia into Turkey and West Central Asia.
But of even more interest is the fact that when the Mongols swept down into the Indian sub-continent, they left a remnant language there as well. A language called "Moghul" makes up the Western branch of the Mongolian sub-family, and is spoken in isolated pockets in Afghanistan. It is the only Mongolian language spoken outside of North Asia.
1474. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:17 AM PT
"....other than Hebrew, which was revived as a living language after centuries in hibernation...."
Centuries? My understanding is that the Hebrew Bible had to be translated into the Greek Septuagint 200 years before Christ because most Jews had forgotten Hebrew.
1475. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:21 AM PT
PE:
I've seen different spins put on it by different groups, but I'm comfortable saying "millennia."
1476. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:24 AM PT
most Jews outside Palestine, that is, but there were already a lot of Jews outside Palestine by 200 BC
1477. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:29 AM PT
The legendary Christian account of the first ever translation of the Hebrew Bible is that the second Ptolemy in Egypt desired his library to be complete and therefore requested that the sacred books of the Jews be translated into Greek. However, most historians now believe that the translation was made for the benefit of the large Alexandrian Jewish community who had forgotten Hebrew and whose native language was now Greek.
Source: Introduction to "The Selections from the Septuagint", ed. by F.C. Conybeare and St. George Stock.
1478. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 31, 1999 - 4:53 AM PT
PE:
Here are some interesting quotations on the revival of Hebrew, and whether or not it was truly a dead language These are all found in Jack Fellman's "The Role of Eliezer Ben Yehuda in the Revival of Hebrew" in Joshua Fishman (ed.) "Advances in Language Planning," Mouton, 1974. My personal feeling is it is incorrect to consider Hebrew anything but a dead language prior to its revival, as it had lost all native speakers. But, as the quotes reveal, it wasn't completely forgotten:
• "Moreover, as is now well understood, Hebrew at the time[the late 19th and early 20th centuries] was not a dead language which had to be artificially revived... but was, in fact, a flexible instrument of expression for many purposes, including even some topics of everyday conversation." (Fellman, p. 428)
• "Hebrew had lost only the language of the market and the kitchen." (Cohn-Schachter, "The Hebrew Language and Education," Shevile Ha-Hinukk 3, 1947/48, p. 218).
• "It is hard to believe that [the revival of Hebrew] would have succeeded... were it not for the people of the agricultural colonies who wanted to break all connections with the diaspora and therefore were also ready to go over to Hebrew." (Chaim Rabin, "The Role of Hebrew in Forging a Nation," The Incorporated Linguist, Jan. 1970, pp. 1-2).
• "It was a curious language which the fathers of modern Hebrew started to speak. It was a... kind of mosaic work, a literary Hebrew, composed of phrases and quotations from Hebrew literature... It also involved difficulties owing to differences in pronunciation of Hebrew and the different use of words and phrases." (Naftali Tur-Sinai, "The Revival of the Hebrew language," Jerusalem, 1960, p. 12).
[continued]
1479. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 31, 1999 - 4:54 AM PT
The story of the revival of Hebrew is a fascinating one, although, despite what the first quote above avers, Hebrew *was* a dead language. How it was revived and spread, how new words were created, how it was taught, how newspapers and dictionaries evolved -- these are all part of the story of the most successful instance of language revival I know of.
1480. LadyChaos - Jan. 31, 1999 - 8:28 AM PT
Re: Message #1468
I forgot one:
Mám néco (pronounced "nyet-so") pro Evu - I have something for Eva.
1481. DanDillon - Jan. 31, 1999 - 10:45 AM PT
Irv Message #1472,
"Usually when languages have no official status, they evolve...more quickly."
Interesting. This is a phenomenon I have never given any thought to. Sounds plausible enough. Could you give some examples if possible?
1482. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 12:11 PM PT
Actually, an interesting discussion topic would be the history of the many many variants of the local language that Jews have spoken throughout history: Judeoespañol (Ladino or Mozarabic), Judeo-German (Yiddish), Judeo-Morroccan, etc.
I happen to have a sample of Ladino/Mozarabic, the language of Maimonides:
Vayse meu corachon de mib;
Ya, Rab, si se me tornarad?
Tan mal meu doler li-l-habib!
Enfermo yed; cuando sanarad?
Reads like a mixture of Arabic and Spanish, no?
1483. stostosto - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:38 PM PT
Irv
Message #1470
"I sometimes think that one of the reasons for English's success as a world language is that it is one of a minority of Indo-European languages *without* a case system. Case systems work fine for native speakers, but they don't make a language easy for learners."
I think so too, as I have mentioned a couple of times in the dwindling of German in Scandinavia as a first language.
Of course one other reason is that the USA and Britain won WWII. And the subsequent acceleration of mass media and pop culture.
It's an ever-fascinating counterfactual question what would have happened if Germany had won that war.
1484. stostosto - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:45 PM PT
Clarification:
The "dwindling of German as a first language.." that I referred to should be the dwindling of it as a first *foreign* language, of course.
But, come to think of it, in Denmark this probably started back in 1864 when Prussia grabbed to predominantly German-speaking duchies from us (of which some was returned in 1920 after a referendum held under the Wilson principles of people's right to self-determination).
Since then our southern neighbours have been regarded as a threat and enemy rather than a cultural powerhouse to study and emulate.
1485. stostosto - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:47 PM PT
Yet another correction
... in 1864 when Prussia grabbed TWO predominantly German-speaking duchies from us...
1486. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 1:54 PM PT
I think the linguistic argument for the predominance of English as the international language (the lack of a case system) is plausible, but I don't believe it. I think the reasons are basically political and economic.
English-speaking peoples have been the dominant group in the world for the last 250 years, and the progress of science and technology has occurred disproportionately in English-speaking countries.
1487. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:00 PM PT
Just look at other every other candidate for "world language": French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Russian, and Arabic. Spanish, Portuguese and Arabic are spoken in countries with little economic clout and no recent technological contribution to the world. Russian was sort of important during the Soviet days, as long as Soviet power could be maintained and Soviet science was innovative & followed. But neither is the case today. German never really got a foothold outside Europe, despite a modest & fleeting imperialism in Africa. That leaves French, a very distant second to English as the international language of culture and science, if not business.
1488. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:03 PM PT
Into what languages are scientific papers originally written in English routinely translated?
I would wager, French and German.
Less frequent would be translations into Russian, Japanese, Italian and Chinese.
1489. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:06 PM PT
Irony of ironies: during the Soviet days, when Marxists from around the world were invited to train at Patrice Lumumba University (and that other institution whose name escapes me) in the USSR, the language of instruction was English.
1490. stostosto - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:16 PM PT
Scientific papers written in English are not routinely translated to any other language. Scientists who don't have English as their first tongue are required to be able to understand it, since not only English speaking scientists write their stuff in English, but others have theirs translated or even write it directly in English.
If, however, any language should be a candidate for "routine" translation, I would say French is a good bet, since the French are stubbornly striving to maintain their language as the true world language and seem to harness some offensive feelings of injustice that this position which is rightfully theirs, seems to have been usurped by the uncivilized *americains*.
Plus, they have a hard time learning English, only would never admit it.
Germans learn it much easier, because it bears a higher resemblance to their language.
1491. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:19 PM PT
Message #1490
Of course many scientific papers written in English are routinely translated into other languages, though that depends on the field. And it's not just French. I've seen (not read) medical or physics papers translated into Japanese and Russian.
1492. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:21 PM PT
Yes, scientists the world over learn at least to read English, but that doesn't prevent the most important papers from being translated into important non-English languages.
1493. stostosto - Jan. 31, 1999 - 2:28 PM PT
No, of course, the most important papers would tend to be translated. But that wouldn't constitute "routine" translation, imo.
1494. DanDillon - Jan. 31, 1999 - 4:14 PM PT
sto x 3 Message #1490,
"Germans learn [English] much easier [than the French do], because it bears a higher resemblance to their language."
A debatable point, to say the least. While English resembles German morphologically to a degree, it resembles French quite a lot both syntactically and lexically. I don't know the exact numbers, but of the 5,000 most frequently used words in English, something like 17% are Germanic and a whopping 44% are French (or Latinate). Sure, English is Germanic, but perhaps in designation only. Also, while English is ungendered, French has two genders and German three. The case system in German is quite a bit more complex than that in French (as the last several hundred posts have shown), and I believe that there is more of a kinship, if you will, between English and French that allows speakers of one of the two languages to ascertain the other more expiditiously, attributable perhaps to the likeness of each tongue's word stock.
Of course, these are superficial comparisons to an extent, but no less valid for being so.
1495. stostosto - Jan. 31, 1999 - 5:18 PM PT
Dan
I take it that what you mean is debatable is only whether German is more similar to English than French is, and not whether the Germans easier learn English than the French do...
My own experience (which, admittedly, is not very hard evidence) tells me that this is the case. Not only because Germans clearly *are* better English speakers than Frenchmen.
But also because as a high school student I was on at trip to France where I was present for a day in a French high school class. Coincidentally, this day the class had both a Spanish and an English lesson. The difference was huge. In the Spanish lesson everything was conducted in Spanish. The students seemed to have no problems expressing themselves in this fellow latin language. In the English lesson everything went painstakingly slow. The students were only able to reluctantly stutter short and relatively simple sentences when prompted by the *institutrice*.
I asked these students whether they had had more Spanish lessons than English ones during elementary school. This was not the case. They had had as many English lessons from as early a point of their schooling process as we do in Denmark.
If what you say about the bigger overlap of the English/French vocabulary is true, then some other forces must be at work to explain this.
1496. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 5:39 PM PT
That's a silly comparison, Stostosto. Spanish and French are more similar to each other, grammatically, morphologically, lexically, and syntactically, than English and French are to each other. One would therefore expect French speakers to have an easier time learning Spanish than English.
As for the affinities between German and English, I'd go further than Dillon and argue that even morphologically, French is at least as close to English as German is to English. (If I understand the meaning of "morphology" correctly, which I may not.)
1497. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 5:44 PM PT
Dillon said: "The case system in German is quite a bit more complex than that in French."
What case system in French? Do you mean the fact that pronouns differ according to whether they are the subject, direct object, indirect object, or adjectival, etc.? What language doesn't have different forms for pronouns according to their function in a sentence? The only language I can think of like that is Japanese, which is as synthetic as a language can get.
1498. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 5:53 PM PT
By the way, as I keep on saying, the case system in German is a joke. Only pronouns, adjectives and articles are declined with any kind of variation, and meaning in German rarely depends on the case system.
Nouns area trivially inflected, really the only difficulty being the occasional irregularity in the formation of plurals.
1499. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 31, 1999 - 6:09 PM PT
Dan Message #1481:
I've mentioned this previously in this discussion. Languages with formalized status have standardized forms, while non-formalized languages and dialects do not, and hence are more liable to change. Look at the standard vs. regional dialects in any country for evidence.
Wrt to the reasons for the predominance of English, I agree with PE's Message #1486. While the simpler grammar makes English easier to learn, political and economic factors are the major reason for the spread of English as a world language. The comparative ease of learning is a minor factor, and may account for a slightly larger number of speakers.
Wrt Scientific papers, I have heard that after English, German is the language the largest number of papers are published in *originally*. I think PE's instincts are correct on the leading languages for *translated* papers: in order, I would think, French, German, Japanese, Russian, Chinese. I would guess that most important papers are translated into all these languages.
PE Message #1489:
In the ironies department, I have always found it interesting that international Islamic conferences are usually conducted in English. The International Islamic University, which has a branch in Indonesia (with funding from Arab nations), is conducted exclusively in English. I guess Arabic isn't enough of an international language to be used in Islamic studies outside the Arab world.
1500. Pseudoerasmus - Jan. 31, 1999 - 6:18 PM PT
I'm randomly tallying some similarities between German and English, similarities which don't exist between French and English.
(1) comparative adjective formation is similar, but not the same. Germans take the -er and -est endings all the way. If English did what German does we'd say "interestinger" and "interestingest".
(2) Adjectives precede the noun in both English and German.
(3) The use of the subjunctive in English and German is quite similar. Unlike French and Italian (but like Spanish and English), German takes the subjunctive in the subordinate clause of contrary-to-fact sentences: "Wenn ich Zeit hätte, würde ich es tun" ["If I had time, I would do this."] Interestingly, both German and English can invert the subjunctive construction and drop the "if": "Hätte ich Zeit, ich würde es tun." [Had I time, I would do this.] Formal German uses the subjunctive in indirect discourse, but English never does.
(4) English and German use modal & auxiliary verbs almost identically.
(5) English and German share a cognate vocabulary of words that most people learn in the first 10 years or so of life.
Otherwise, without thinking harder, I can't think of many other interesting similarities between German and English.