401. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:13 AM PT
"You're quite right -- the bigness of the space in the Northwest also plays a role, because it's easy enough for these radicals to just move out into the woods here and not be noticed."
I wonder if there is another, related aspect. The West is much more sparsely populated. If you get some strange idea into your head, it might build in your head as you spend much of the time thinking about it alone. If you more rarely run into others who might challenge your idea, you might convince yourself of the "truth" due to lack of objective counter-point. And, if you reach a certain point, then objections even fuel the thinking, because the objectors become part of the conspiracy.
402. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:15 AM PT
spudboy
"... though what I think is happening specifically is that, because I'm not ringing the alarm bells, people in the media aren't paying much attention to it."
Precisely. That is what I was thinking, although you phrased it better.
403. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:16 AM PT
FTC: By the way, the group I mentioned previously that is anti-Christian, the World Church of the Creator, isn't really a Patriot group per se. They are white supremacists, who I really try to delineate from Patriots, because Patriots are specifically mainstream in their orientation. Many Patriots, particularly in the ranks of followers, are very clearly not supremacists nor even racial bigots.
Mind you, it isn't always easy to separate Patriots from supremacists, because there's such an enormous amount of crossover, embodied in the fact that Identity is the key driver in this movement. Take the Freemen; they clearly are Patriots, but there's also no question that their rabid Identity beliefs also make them white supremacists.
404. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:18 AM PT
Spudboy
You are right of course that nazism and fascism originated over here and were supported by lots of ordinary people. Now, there were some important differences between those ideologies which are often overlooked because Mussolini ended up as a junior partner to Hitler. But let's not be sidetracked. What makes the Patriots very 'American', in my view, is their strong identification with Christianity (their version of). Christianity had no role to play in the totalitarian ideologies of Europe (yes, Mussoline concluded a concordat with the Vatican, but that was a political thing).
405. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:19 AM PT
spudboy
One minor note: as you know, the book is long, and I thought about what material could be excised without losing much. As I started to read the Bitteroot chapter, I had a feeling that this wasn't going to be central to the point. But by the time I finished it, I decided it was one of the better chapters for illustrating some of the important points. Given that my only other suggestion re editing has been expansion, I guess I'm not helping much.
406. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:21 AM PT
spudboy
"FTC: By the way, the group I mentioned previously that is anti-Christian, the World Church of the Creator, isn't really a Patriot group per se."
Sorry, I was being lazy and using "Patriot" as shorthand for all these groups. Should have known better.
407. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:21 AM PT
FTC: I very much like Message #401. I think this happens a lot. One of the more bizarre aspects of the manifestation of anti-Semitism, for instance, in Idaho is that there are hardly any Jews there at all. This puzzles many people; why would you hate people in the abstract that way, when you never even have to encounter them and their Otherness? (Same with minorities like blacks, I might add.) But that's exactly the point; because they're never exposed to Jews in real life, which I argue actually lets people experience their humanness, it's much easier to see them as an abstraction that is easily demonized.
408. cllrdr - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:33 AM PT
Adding to the problems faced by a serious writer like spuds, is the way the media have come to construct a place for religious/political/racist "kooks" as a sideshow. Since "they" have a "home" on Geraldo or Jerry Springer, the "mainstream" feels no need to analyze these different groups and show their intersection with other more acceptable political stances on both the Right and Left.
409. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:37 AM PT
Pelle: I think the fundamentalist-style interpretation and treament of the U.S. Constitution also differentiates the Patriots from European fascists. As I say, Patriots really are more proto-fascist, particularly since they are nominally anti-authoritarian still (so was Euro-fascism early on, I might add) and have yet to fall under anything like a singular leadership. But there are important similarities, which I delineate in the Afterword.
And it's important to remember that this impulse has been here a long time. Remember, fascism had its proponents in the United States as well, particularly William Dudley Pelley. Charles Lindbergh had some troubling behavior in this regard (see the recent Pulitzer-winning biography of Lindbergh, which discusses this at length) and Henry Ford, as the author of "The International Jew" (once given out to everyone who bought a Ford car), was in fact responsible for fueling some of Hitler's rhetoric. Ford was awarded an iron cross by Hitler, you know, who declared: "We look to Heinrich Ford as the leader of the growing fascist movement in America."
410. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:42 AM PT
A couple of notes about the book as such. You suffered some mild criticism about repetitiveness earlier on. There are two ways to organise stuff like yours: chronologichally or thematically. You choose the latter and I think you did right. But then it is inevitable that the same episodes turn up in different thematic contexts. One then has a choice of referring the reader to an earlier chapter or to repeat the thing. Again you choose the latter and again I think you did right. Not least because if one wants to return to a specific chapter it is good to have the whole story in there.
One thing that nagged me a bit, initially, was the level of detail you provide, e.g who met with whom at what exact date and place. I know you are a journalist and I expected a book in that vein. But after a while I understood that your ambition was rather a work of scholarship which can be used as a reference to the status of the Patriot movement in the late 1990's. I can not judge how well you have succeeded but I would be surprised to learn that anybody knows more than you do about the subject at hand.
But I hate endnotes! Footnotes are so much more convenient.
411. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:45 AM PT
cllrdr: By way of underscoring your point, I should mention that my experience with a conservative talk-show host was far superior to what I encountered on MSNBC, where I actually work in my day job. In my one appearance on cable, to discuss the package I put together for the MSNBC Web site, I had all of about four minutes during which I was asked three questions. And they were possibly the most inane questions that anyone could have asked. What was painfully clear by the third question was that the questioner hadn't even bothered to read or even *look at* the contents of the package on MSNBC's own Web site. It was extraordinarily frustrating.
But then, you know all about the huge gulf between print and broadcast media folk.
412. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:49 AM PT
Irv: You're quite right. I should mention that I first obtained a copy of "Vigilantes" through a source at the Montana Association of Churches. I think I mention in the book that some of the best and most effective work in countering the Patriots and pulling people back out of the movement is done by faith-based groups like the MAC and the Center for New Community in Illinois.
413. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:52 AM PT
spudboy
Don't fall in the trap that nazism in some way invented anti-semitism. It was there and it was exploited.
414. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:54 AM PT
How does this 'Hot' classification work? We've been posting away like mad but still the sign is on much more slow-moving threads.
415. ScottLoar - Aug. 7, 1999 - 10:59 AM PT
I stopped in at B. Dalton bookstores here in downtown Chicago just two days ago and submitted your name and title to the monitor. In seconds he told me it wasn't in yet.
416. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:00 AM PT
Sorry to run, but someone wants to show our house. I'll be back
417. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:23 AM PT
Pelle: Thanks. You're right about the choices and why I made them.
As for the detail and personal material: I included much of this out of a combination of narrative and philosophical considerations. For one thing, I wanted to get the reader be in the "here and now" when events I was watching were happening; I think this gives readers a much better feel for the material, makes them feel part of it. Once I've established that connection, then it's much easier to guide them through the various aspects of the movement, again letting my eyes be theirs.
The philosophy behind this is one I've developed largely on my own. I practice journalism because of what I think it's capable of -- of connecting people on important and human levels. (Unfortunately, when it's mispracticed -- as it often is, right cllrdr? -- it works in the opposite fashion: turns people into mere objects and harms our humanness.) I'm trying to help people connect, to effect something along the lines of a genuine understanding, all of which requires balance and fairness and a certain openness. Ultimately, the journalist himself becomes the conduit for this connection. I decided in this book to make my role explicit, by including not just my personal experiences covering the events and the people behind them (in a sort of Rick Bass style) but my family history and my experiences with the government, all to help people understand how this kind of movement can happen.
418. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
Pelle: You're quite right, of course. My point was that fascism even in the 1920s wasn't a purely European phenomenon. It has existed in the United States for some years, though obviously during WWII and the years immediately thereafter it became minuscule in influence.
419. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:28 AM PT
spudboy
The Patriot movement seems to represent a spectrum of views within what we generally call the 'extreme right'. I understand that many want to completely cut their ties with the government and set up their own communities.They essentially don't give a damn about current politics because it's all bad anyway. Are there others who are trying to gain a real-world political influence? If so, how do they go about it? In a parliamentary multi-party system like in Europe (except the UK) the obvious way is to set up a party and try to get a few percent of the vote (4% here in Sweden)to get into parliament. But in a two-party system the entrance level is extremely high.
420. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:31 AM PT
And hey -- we're hot now. Woo hoo!
Scott: If B&N can't get it for you quickly, you can always just order it from WSU Press.
421. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:45 AM PT
pellenilsson
"Don't fall in the trap that nazism in some way invented anti-semitism. It was there and it was exploited."
I didn't read that into his post, even on a rereading. But I agree with you. While very far from an expert on the subject, most serious items I have read on the subject make it clear that anti-semitism was adopted as a handy rallying point, as opposed to intrinsically a part of nazism.
422. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:46 AM PT
Pelle: For exactly the reasons you describe, the Patriots don't really have a party of their own. What usually happens is that the Patriots will get behind a select few politicians who represent their general worldview, even though they may be part of "the system." These include folks like Rep. Helen Chenoweth, R-Idaho, who has tried to hold hearings on black helicopters and whose speeches are sold on video tapes at militia meetings. There are number of figures like Chenoweth on the scene, people who straddle both the extremist and mainstream worlds. I call them "transmitters," because they invariably become conduits for injecting Patriot ideas, theories and conspiracies into the mainstream debate. They operate not just on the political front in people like Chenoweth or Bob Barr or Dan Burton or Jesse Helms, but also on the religious front (Pat Robertson), the media (Rush Limbaugh), the Internet (The Free Republic) and the legal (Larry Klayman and Judicial Watch).
An important secondary way that Patriots work on the political front is through "transmitter" third parties like the U.S. Taxpayers Party. Though nominally a mainstream conservative party, the USTP actually was one of the early advocates of the militia strategy, has had speakers promote the killing of abortion doctors at its gatherings, and generally advocates Patriot positions, including the claim that we are no longer under a constitutional government.
Notably, former Republican Sen. Robert Smith, a presidential candidate, announced that he was leaving the GOP. He is almost certain to become the USTP's presidential nominee. Smith, another "transmitter," is chairman of the Senate's Ethics Committee. He actually possesses considerable power in Washington, though he may be stripped of that in the wake of his latest move. We'll see.
423. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:47 AM PT
pellenilsson
"How does this 'Hot' classification work?"
I don't know the specific numbers, but it requires some minimum number of posts. I'm guessing a dozen or so. But, whatever it is, we're there!!!
424. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
spudboy
It's almost as if there were a Patriot conspiracy afoot .... Tentacles everywhere.
425. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:51 AM PT
pellenilsson
"In a parliamentary multi-party system like in Europe (except the UK) the obvious way is to set up a party and try to get a few percent of the vote (4% here in Sweden)to get into parliament. But in a two-party system the entrance level is extremely high."
Interesting question. I've idly wondered about whether we would be better off with a multi-party approach. I've even proposed proportional representation for House Representatives, in an attempt to resolve the gerrymandering problem. But, I confess (at the risk of offending someone), I then look at Italy and get very discouraged about a multi-party approach.
426. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:52 AM PT
FTC
I'm of the opinion that anti-semitism *was* an intrinsic part of nazism. Mein Kampf is full of the stuff. But it was not invented by Adolf or any other nazi.
And let's keep it hot!
427. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:56 AM PT
pellenilsson
But, exploring it a bit further, can Patriots, or their ilk, persuade themselves that they are shut out of a two-party system, and argue for more radical measures? If we had a multi-party system, where they would get a small single-digit representation, would it doubly help, because they would have *some* representation, but be unable to fool themselves into thinking that they would be larger but for the two-party system?
Or are they so capable of fooling themselves that this wouldn't help, and a multi-party approach would just create more splinters?
Has any European nation fundamentally changed its approach, either toward, or away from multiple party power?
428. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 11:56 AM PT
Pelle: Well, I'm not about to start hinting at conspiracies! What you're seeing, I think, is simply an ideological movement that is trying to move from the fringe to the mainstream -- not by transforming itself so much (though some of that is inevitable), but by changing the very definition of "mainstream." So it's going about it by attracting new followers along any number of mainstream fronts: education, government control and behavior, land-use policy, gun control, international relations, abortion. You name the issue, the Patriots have found a way to make it one of theirs.
429. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:02 PM PT
pellenilsson
We may not be so far apart. It's barely on topic, so I won't spend too much time on it.
It Jews had never existed, would Nazism never existed? My belief is that someone would have identified some other group to blame, and history might have been much the same.
When I say it wasn't intrinsic, I don't mean to suggest it was merely a side issue. I think the need to find a group to focus hate upon was integral to the movement, but I don't know that it had to be the Jews. As you know, they also picked on the mentally challenged, cripples and other groups, although I doubt that they could have sustained the cohesive hatred with those groups alone, because they weren't ubiquitous enough, and they couldn't plausibly make their case.
430. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:03 PM PT
FTC: FWIW, I think the vast majority of Patriots feel that they are disempowered by the two-party system. They often decry Republicans almost as viciously as they rip into Democrats.
Of course, one suspects they won't be happy until they've achieved a one-party system.
431. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:11 PM PT
FTC: Yeah, I think the Nazis would've had a hard time convincing people that the problems of the world are caused by a massive conspiracy of mentally ill people.
Of course, the Jews were chosen because this was an issue that resonated deeply out of historical prejudices, just as the Catholics were the object of the Klan's wrath in the 1920s. Nowadays, we still have the Jews, and blacks and other minorities, to kick around too. But the chief object of loathing for Patriots is the New World Order -- a very flexible scapegoat. It includes not only government officials and workers but also prominent liberals, civil-rights leaders, and probably anyone in the media. The problem with this is that the objects of this kind of scapegoating are not quite so easily identified as ethnic/religious groups.
432. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:15 PM PT
spudboy
A question for you (which you may have addressed in the book, but I don't recall):
Many of the Patriots and similar groups argue that they aren't subject to the authority of federal officials, only the local sheriffs. How do they deal with the fact that the local sheriff often is the one putting them in jail? Do they argue that the sheriff has been co-opted, or do they modify their claim and argue that they aren't subject to any authority, or do they choose the cognitive dissonance route?
433. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:16 PM PT
Let me tell of a Swedish experience which has some relevance to FTC's Message #427 and spudboy's Message #428
In the early 90's we had a rather severe recession here and the number of jobless increased sharply. At the same time we had an influx of refugees from the numerous atrocious small wars which are raging all over including the Balkans. Naturally, these refugees have to housed and fed.
This provided the perfect breeding ground for a xenophobic party, the New Democrats (ND) with a charismatic leader and they got into Parliament in 1991. Two interesting things happened. The whole political establishment moved towards a more restrictive immigration policy. This happened already during the election campaign as they tried to take the wind out of ND's sails and continued during the life-time of the parliament. The other thing was that confronted with real-world politics and the need to take a position on real issues the ND cracked and didn't make in the next election. But their legacy is there. They did succeed do inject some of the ideas, albeit in a more moderate form, into Swedish mainstream politics.
434. arkymalarky - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:19 PM PT
Message #420
I'm ordering from WSU. B&N in Little Rock didn't have it and I couldn't get back over there to see if any copies were in, and online B&N said it would be one to two weeks.
I still don't get the vague connections between the "fringes" and those who are buying into parts of their stories and ideologies. I have an ex-inlaw (thank goodness for the ex part) who has obvious sympathies for some of these ideas, but he expresses them as "My buddy says so and so about the government (or Clinton, or you fill in the blank, but the statement is always something pretty radical). Now I don't agree of course, but I kind of see his point." I worked with a coach one time--I wouldn't call him normal, but he's certainly not fringe--who was telling me all this horrible stuff Clinton had done, and he had gotten it from the Clinton tapes which we've talked about before in the Fray. He completely bought every story without even a question. IOW, their ideas and misinformation are getting fairly wide circulation, with virtually no challenge to their validity by any "mainstream" media. I know gunshows have facilitated their spread to a degree, but it always interests me to hear these paranoid ideas coming from "average" folks I know. This point has really already been talked about some, and I know Spuds mentioned that occasional meetings attract pretty large audiences who aren't Patriots, but the fact that they're lending an ear and helping spread these ideas and misinformation is a big concern, imo.
435. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:21 PM PT
FTC: Good question. The response varies, but generally they follow route A: the sheriff has been co-opted. They say that he recognizes an illegitimate authority (the feds), which makes him illegitimate as well. Some go so far as to argue that because he was elected under the aegis of an illegitimate election, he's not really the sheriff! They then, during a gathering of the "common law court," name a "real" sheriff who becomes chief constable of the court. They create their own jurisdictions, their own lines of authority -- really, their own complete little universes.
436. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:25 PM PT
Arky: I think you give a nice summary of my central concern. I'm not really worried about the crackpots and their theories -- they have always been with us and always will be. I'm more concerned by the level of circulation and widespread acceptance that their ideas are getting, among people who really should know better. What the hell ever happened to common sense?
437. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:26 PM PT
spudboy
In a closed reference system there is an answer to everything. That's what make them so frightening. The fact that you deny that there is a conspiracy proves that you are a member of it.
438. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:27 PM PT
Or that you are stupid and ignorant, a point you make in the book.
439. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:29 PM PT
FTC
"We may not be so far apart. It's barely on topic, so I
won't spend too much time on it."
Agreed.
440. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:35 PM PT
I think the question posed by the ex of arky is pretty central to whether these things grow or die out.
Someone says to someone else, "I heard thus-and-so. Pretty wild, huh? Of course, I'm not buying it, but I thought it was interesting."
The listener is key. If the listener responds, "I don't know how people come up with such drivel. What idiots!", the first person nods and says, "my thoughts exactly" and one tentacle dies.
OTOH, if the listener say," oh I don't know. There's probably an element of truth to it. I heard that from several people. I don't know that I believe it, but where there's smoke, there's fire." Then the first person will say, well, it is weird, and it maybe exaggerated, but I bet there's something to it. Maybe we should keep ours ears open. In this case a tentacle has been reinforced. I think these things can start feeding on themsleves.
441. arkymalarky - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:35 PM PT
What I find interesting is that the people I've encountered aren't getting watered-down versions, or versions filtered through political organizations, etc. They're coming directly from the source, best I can tell. It seems to me that the permeation of these views, whatever the method (internet, gunshows, etc), is more widespread in many rural areas, not just pockets where Patriot organizations exist, than people realize. And it's supported by such a great deal of misinformation and outright lies, and it always amazes me how easily people buy into what they hear. I have students every once in awhile bring me stuff they've gotten from their families or acquaintances, usually from the internet, which they present as facts, evidently in an attempt to enlighten the social studies teacher. I hate to confess it, but I still don't really know how to react to them. I usually just say something like "That's nice," or "How interesting," and move on.
442. FreeToChoose - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:40 PM PT
arkymalarky
Could you make it into a class assignment? Point out the "fact" to the class, and ask people to find some supporting evidence on both sides of the issue. And then to look at the supporting evidence and discuss it critically. Assume it isn't factual, it should be harder to find supporting evidence, and the sources will be weaker.
443. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:54 PM PT
FTC -- Message #440
Very perceptive. I think this is exactly how it works. The mechanism somehow resembles that of the spread of urban legends.
But on the other hand there is a source from where these things emanate and there are first-level 'transmitters' as spudboy aptly calls them.
Now take this Black Helicopter thing and the idea that the UN is about to conquer the US. In my mind this is on level with the Heaven's Gate thing. And were not these people also described as essentially normal, well-adjusted folks? Computer experts, doctors, teachers, what have you?
Is it that some people have an urge to impose patterns where no pattern exists, to make something coherent of a world that is essentially incoherent? Is this why they fall prey to conspiracy-mongers?
444. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 12:56 PM PT
Pelle: "In a closed reference system there is an answer to everything. That's what make them so frightening." Well, that's certainly what makes them so hard to reason with. It's not unheard-of behavior, mind you. This sort of thing has been observed (as I think Loar has pointed out) in quasi-religious sub-movements throughout mankind's history. I'm not ready to be frightened except to the extent that we're seeing more violence spin out of this milieu. And it is increasing.
Gang, I've run out of time for right now. (I have a 1 p.m. appointment to which I must run.) But please, continue the conversation. I'll be back in a couple of hours and can pick up any questions then.
445. cllrdr - Aug. 7, 1999 - 1:00 PM PT
"I have students every once in awhile bring me stuff they've gotten from their families or acquaintances, usually from the internet, which they present as facts, evidently in an attempt to enlighten the social studies teacher."
The notion that anything culled from the internet is ipso facto "authorotative" is one of the most pernicious of modern times. The PR culture has only stoked the fires, making "internet access" virtually *equivalent* to education.
446. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 1:03 PM PT
spudboy
"Frightening" was a poor choice of word. And if you take a little time and look at the struggles of LadyChaos and Anome8 in Religion you would find that the phenomenon is not limited to *quasi*-religious groups.
447. pellenilsson - Aug. 7, 1999 - 1:06 PM PT
Well if spudboy is out of it so am I. It's 10 p.m. here now and I think I'll cozy up with a glass of wine and a nice, juicy report on telecommunications in Mozambique whence I go in two weeks' time.
Thanks to all for a most stimulating evening!
448. arkymalarky - Aug. 7, 1999 - 1:15 PM PT
FTC, first, please, the man is not my ex. He's an ex-inlaw. In fact, he's technically not my personal ex-inlaw, but one of my brother's. Very important distinction there!;-)
As far as his opinions expressed are concerned, call me a skeptic, but I think he's expressing his own views as though they were someone else's, kind of floating the ideas to see how they are received. Being shared with "family" at the time, they were usually met with sidewise looks to other family members and quick changes of subject when possible.
Your idea about examining the material with the class is interesting. I wouldn't want the student to feel like his family's credibility was being questioned, but that would be a good way to approach research and source credibility in general.
449. arkymalarky - Aug. 7, 1999 - 1:20 PM PT
I agree, Cllrdr, and it's been a real benefit to the Patriots and other fringe groups, imo. And obviously some people just purposely spread bullshit for a laugh. Teachers where I work, and even administrators, have posted internet "warnings," trying to provide a public service to the students and staff, which have been debunked on that great Urban Legends site that's been linked here. I get these things, as I'm sure y'all do, in email--dire warnings of dangers lurking in the most unsuspecting places. The first thing I do when I get a new notice or email is to look it up in the UL site.
450. bloodnfire - Aug. 7, 1999 - 1:39 PM PT
Hi Spudboy. Glad to see the thread going so well. Somewhere during the past six hours you posted "My point in the book is that mainstream Christianity has largely rejected these interpretations for over a millennium (though you did hear many of them crop up during the debate in the 1800s over slavery). People who are, in my opinion, genuine Christians will reject these arguments as truly anathema to the spirit of Christ."
I can't find the post I originally copied now, but I just wanted to comment on this statement of yours. I have tried to articulate the difference between 'Counterfeit' Christianity and the True for the year and a half I have been posting on 'The Fray'. The 'Easy Believism' and Religiosity which will take Scripture out of context, and (worse) out of Dispensational time frame, and use it as an excuse to exercise bigotry and hatred is typical of the counterfeit.
"Perfect love casteth out all fear" is one of the Bible's most lovely truths. It seems to me that the 'rising Anger Level' which you mention on page 7 of the foreward to your book, is the key to these phenomena. Anger and fear, those two ugly sisters, which inhabit the human heart and cause such wicked reaction. I see the Patriot Movement and it's fellows as ugly fruit hanging from the same tree as Drive-by shootings, Workplace murders and the recent slaughter in our schools. Fear and anger working together to turn otherwise decent, ordinary human beings into lawless vigilantes.
At the same time, one can sympathize with the intrusions of government bureaucracy into the lives and livelihood of some of those same decent folk as being the cause of the anger. It is a very challenging situation. Does your book offer any hopeful outlook later, or do things look to get worse ?
451. ScottLoar - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:14 PM PT
re Message #436, not a lack of common sense but a lack of discrimination, the inability to discriminate and critically evaluate an argument or statement.
I, too, am ordering from Washington State University Press which I knew from my university days as a power publishing house on volumes pertaining to Asian Studies.
452. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:19 PM PT
Bloodnfire: I can't say I'm terribly optimistic, simply judging from the fairly quiet response so far to the book, and other dealings with the media (like that at MSNBC). Though Jane Kramer has indicated to me that she intends to review it for The New Yorker, which would help a lot. But I don't see any sign that the underlying conditions will be mitigated, and in fact may take a turn for the worse in the coming years. And if we experience a severe economic downturn at any point, I'd say the risk rises considerably.
That said, I would say that there is always cause for hope as long as there are courageous people within the communities where the Patriots manifest themselves, and this really is the main message of the book. Its heroes are the neighbors and family members who stand up to this kind of thinking and who really are the most effective at countering it. Community and personal response is the most important factor at keeping it at bay, and it should be encouraged above everything else.
Secondarily, I think there needs to be some kind of recognition on the part of the government -- and on urban taxpayers -- that the enormous economic shifts that the one-two punch of corporatization and globalization represent really tear at the social fabric in unhealthy ways, and that there ought to be some consideration given to making a genuine effort to keep the family farm from extinction. On a broader scale, there needs to be an effort to mitigate the economic disenfranchisement of large segments of our population, particularly the blue-collar segments, that seem vulnerable to this kind of belief system.
453. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:21 PM PT
This ultimately reflects the third component where our actions can make a difference: *really* reinventing government. We need to institute some genuine reforms that permanently alter the way the federal government operates, primarily by eliminating a system that empowers bureaucrats and police officials who see themselves and their work as separate from the communities in which they operate -- who place themselves outside and above the mundane concerns of people who make a living in their jurisdictions, and who gladly place their federal mandate above local needs and refuse to attempt to find ways to satisfy both. One-size-fits-all government sucks.
454. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:33 PM PT
Pelle: Thanks greatly for your contributions today. We'll try to keep the little campfire burning here for the next several days, so please feel free to pop in.
About your question: "Is it that some people have an urge to impose patterns where no pattern exists, to make something coherent of a world that is essentially incoherent? Is this why they fall prey to conspiracy-mongers?" Yes, and this is a very human trait. Really, all kind of religious belief is built on this impulse. (See my Message #380 and subsequent posts.) The people I've noticed being particularly vulnerable are those who've gone through much of the earlier parts of their lives with scarcely a thought given to the search for deeper meaning in their lives, and then suddenly discover the need after they've reached adulthood. And in these kinds of belief systems, they are offered the chance at secret knowledge that no one else possesses. It's a very empowering kind of thing, and especially attractive for people who feel washed away in anonymity, powerless and rudderless.
455. AzureNW - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:43 PM PT
456. AzureNW - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:52 PM PT
I had a manager one time, he lives a few blocks from here....
In fact his whole fucking team, that whole damned bunch of Promise Keepers....
457. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 4:52 PM PT
The essay by Anthony and Robbins that I discussed back then hinges to a great extent on the work by the famed child-developmental psychologist Erik Erikson, who described in a 1953 article, "Wholeness and Totality," much of the mechanics of what attracts people to millennarianism, beginning with a "totalistic" organization of the personality that is fairly common, but contrasts sharply with a "whole" personality:
"The totalistic organization of the peronsality entails an emphasis on an absolute boundary between good and bad people and between the person and the exterior social environment. The person feels fundamentally separate from the outside world. A sense of relationship is attained by forming intense negative and positive identifications between external groups and crudely dichotomized parts of the person. Moral and ideological principles are internalized as absolutes. Impulses, fantasies, behaviors and opinions not fully consistent with positive identifications are denied and dissociated. But this rigid organization tends to be unstable, in part because split-off parts of the psyche may continue to seek expression and threaten the unrealistic and dualistic definition of acceptable selfhood."
458. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:03 PM PT
Azure: Your Message #456 is pretty cryptic, but I value your contributions. What are you getting at?
You said the other week you'd bought the book. Whatcha think so far?
459. AzureNW - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:06 PM PT
spudboy, the extremes of political and religious beliefs that cooperate so well as a tightly-knit community here has to be part of this story. We disagree so completely, yet care so much about eachother and work together so well. (We're secretly smug about how easy the very worst predictions for Y2K disasters would be for us as a community to handle. We know we can handle anything.)
460. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:13 PM PT
Azure: I agree, but I'm not really sure how that is part of this story. I have seen people with hardly anything in common come together in a crisis. In fact, I think I describe that pretty vividly in Chapter 8. But I think that behavior speaks more to the positive side of the Northwest character. The Patriot movement, OTOH, represents probably its darkest side.
461. AzureNW - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:16 PM PT
The sheriff's deputy and his wife at the end of the cud-de-sac here surely have religious and political beliefs I would argue with, but I honor them as heroes for their public service to us, and I would go directly to their door if any weird shit started to happen. I know they want me to count on their integrity, and I do. I hope they know they can count on me.
462. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:26 PM PT
Spuds:
Excellent discussion here. I really like pelle's Message #443. He's quite right that the way the Patriot ideas emerge into the mainstream is very similar to the way urban legends grow and take on a life of their own, despite having no basis in truth.
463. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:29 PM PT
Sure. This touches on something we once disagreed about -- I argued to you once that a person's political beliefs are not very good indicators of their worth as human beings. Some of the finest people I know are people whose politics are as close to being the opposite of mine as can be; conversely, some of the biggest stinking louses I've ever encountered happen to share my political views. Decency and personal integrity cut across all kinds of boundaries, and for me those are more important criteria for forming real relationships. Besides, I love to argue with people I like and respect. What an uninteresting world it would be if everyone only agreed with me.
I tend to be kind of leery of people who say: "You believe that? Then you must be a scumbag!" In my experience, nearly *everyone* believes they are doing the right thing, regardless of which side of the aisle you sit on. Everyone believes their intent is good and pure. (There are exceptions, of course: the terminally self-absorbed whose only intent is getting more money for No. 1.) I tend to give people who are politically active and passionate the benefit of the doubt for actually being involved because they at least believe they are doing the right, good and honorable thing.
464. spudboy - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:33 PM PT
Irv: Yes, pelle is nothing if not perceptive. Indeed, most conspiracy theories have a lot in common with urban legends. The real cross-over area for all this is the UFO arena.
Incidentally, one of the more bizarre Patriot tomes is William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse," which blends UFO theories with anti-Semitic conspiracies (it contains the entire text of "Protocols of the Seven Elders of Zion") with some JFK assassination shit thrown in for good measure, and then wraps it all up in a New World Order blanket. It's wild.
465. pellenilsson - Aug. 8, 1999 - 1:59 AM PT
irv and spudboy
Thanks for the kind words about my Message #443. But I feel obliged to mention that it was inspired by FTC's Message #442.
466. pellenilsson - Aug. 8, 1999 - 2:33 AM PT
spudboy
You might be interested in Erich Fromm's Escape from Freedom which is an analysis along the lines that freedom can be frightening, totalitarianism can be tempting. He examines the concept of freedom since the emergence of the individual as a concept, and the mechanisms of escape from it. Fromm wrote the book in 1941, so it is prompted by nazism and there is a chapter on "The phsychology of nazism".
Another book of interest is the Norwegian philosopher Harald Ofstad's "Our Contempt for Weakness; Nazi Norms and Values - and Our Own". It is not listed at Amazon but I found the English edition here so it should be available in a good library in the US. It has some bearing on the mini-discussion FTC and I had yesterday. I translate from the back cover:
"Anti-semitism is not at the core of nazism. Its core is that the strong shall rule over the weak, and that the weak are contemptible because they let themselves be ruled. Nazism did not emerge in Germany in the 1930's and it did not disappear in 1945. It is an expression of deeply set emotions which are still there, within ourselves and in our environment."
467. bloodnfire - Aug. 8, 1999 - 4:52 AM PT
Spudboy. The final paragraph in particular in your Message #452 is very astute. I hope and pray that I live long enough to see it happen, but if I don't that it happen anyway. God bless America. Let us know if and when the New Yorker reviews your book, okay ?
468. joezan - Aug. 8, 1999 - 6:12 AM PT
462. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 7, 1999 - 5:26 PM PT
Spuds:
Excellent discussion here. I really like pelle's Message#443. He's quite right that the way the Patriot ideas emerge into the mainstream is very similar to the way urban legends grow and take on a life of their own, despite having no basis in truth.
...
What? You mean, the feds DIDN'T put those metalic strips in the new currency in order to allow them to count the stacks of money hidden in my closet, using a special infra-red sensor operated from their helicopters?
Psshhttt...yea, right!
(...next, you'll be saying there are no alligators in the N.Y. sewer system!)
469. spudboy - Aug. 8, 1999 - 10:29 AM PT
Pelle: Fromm's works in general are quite insightful on this subject. I'll pick up _Escape_.
I'm intrigued by Ofstad's thesis. Fascism is actually kind of hard to define (which is why by the 1990s it has become an abused term tossed in to suggest generic totalitarianism, of which category it is of course only a particular type). The reason partially is that it originated and gained momentum really as a reaction *against* communism. Thus for years it was primarily defined by what it was *not* -- it was anti-communist, anti-democratic, anti-liberalist. Thus even a study as recent as Stanley Payne's "Fascism: Comparison and Definition," (1980), relies mostly on the "negations" of fascism to explain it. Most useful is Roger Griffin's "The Nature of Fascism" (1991), which defined fascism in a positive term for one of the first times: a "political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism." (Palingenesis, incidentally, is the symbolic rebirth from the dead, as in the Phoenix from the ashes.)
These are purely political definitions, though. I like Ofstad's because it is primarily psychological. And it accurately describes a strand that runs through all fascist and proto-fascist thought and behavior. Griffin's thesis was similarly built around a common feature that appeared historically in all known manifestations of "generic" fascism.
470. pellenilsson - Aug. 8, 1999 - 10:39 AM PT
spudboy
Dinner calls. I'll be back.
471. pellenilsson - Aug. 8, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
spudboy
On the other hand, and on a rather high abstraction level, there are similarities between fascism and communism. Both ideologies are firmly elitist.
After Lenin won the day at the party conference in 1903, the Bolsheviks ('the majority') defined itself as the avantgarde of the revolution, the elite who had the sole right to interpret the 'true interest of the people' and to guide them along the revolutionary path. The party was exclusive: it was not a question of gaining membership by paying the fee, one had to show the appropriate revolutionary fervour in words and deeds.
Much of the same applied to the Nazi party.
This kind of ideology attracts a certain type of persons. Mussolini was a Bolshevik before he became the founder of the Fascist party in Italy. A meeting of the extremes, indeed.
I think you would appreciate Ofstads book. Shall I order it and send it to you? It will avoid the hassle of registration and you can do me the same favour with Amazon when the occasion arises.
472. AzureNW - Aug. 8, 1999 - 6:39 PM PT
spudboy, I still haven't read enough of your book to comment on it. It's not an easy subject for me to focus on because it's so close to home. I don't want to examine my illusions about my neighbors' "parallel universe" too closely, at least not this weekend. I want to believe militia movements are sustained by an ignorance that will be inexorably worn away over time.
One off-topic point that's come up a couple of times in talking about the book I would enjoy delving into further sometime is the issue of agricultural subsidies like those you were discussing with Greystoke a couple of weeks ago:
Message #334
"You may want to come out and fish in our streams and hike in our woods, but the people in the West have to make a living here. They have always made it through resource use and extraction. Who are you to say they have no right to make a living here? Do you think this should just become a private playground for people like you?"
You know, we disagree very strongly on this issue. No one has to make a living through resource extraction or agriculture, certainly not at public expense. I would like to know what the real costs of supporting underdemanded agricultural production on family farms and ranches are as compared to other social programs conservatives complain so much about. How much more does it cost the public to support farmers' and rachers' lifestyles as compared to funding training programs for high-tech industry for anyone who can keep up? The costs of salmon restoration projects like dam removal should make it easier to begin to put a price tag on the environmental portion of the total costs.
473. spudboy - Aug. 9, 1999 - 12:00 AM PT
Azure: I understand your sentiments, though I do not agree. Perhaps that is because your ancestors are the people who were displaced by mine. But you can't snap your fingers and undo 150 years of history, which included the massive settlement programs and irrigation projects, all financed by the federal government, to populate all of the country with industrious citizen-farmers, following Jefferson's ideal.
More to the point, you're viewing it through a monolothic lens. If we drive small family farmers out of business, the land won't revert back to its original state. It will be farmed -- by ConAgra or Cargill or someone like that. Regardless, the land will be used, and with a great deal less sensitivity. That's my point.
Think about who you want your neighbor out there in the country to be: a small family that has tended the land for generations, or a corporate employee responsible only to the bottom line. I can tell you under which regime the general economy of rural areas is healthier. I can also hazard a pretty good guess under which regime the environmental damage will be greater, as well as the ability of the remaining neighbors to do anything about it.
474. spudboy - Aug. 9, 1999 - 12:24 AM PT
Pelle: I'll be in touch with you via Irv. I'm interested in the Ofstad book.
You raise an important point about both fascism and communism (being both essentially totalitarian, they share more than a few features), particularly in their mature phases. However, they did not begin as elitist, but rather were overtly populist in nature. This is part of the nature of revolutionary ideologies like fascism and communism.
As Griffin points out, both "will exhibit a utopian revolutionary aspect when attempting to overthrow the existing order but proceed to assume a reactionary oppressive one if ever installed in power. ... The utopia which fascism [or communism, by definition as well] seeks to implement will never be realized in practice, only a travesty of it."
Thus Mussolini nominally proclaimed himself a "socialist" in his beginnings (1912-14). Remember however that the "fasci" refers specifically to the symbol of a bundle, the idea being that fascism was the movement that in Italy would bring together all the competing interests -- the socialists, the capitalists and the church into one unified nationalist cause. This meant that Mussolini and his cohorts formed alliances with a gradually narrowing array of interests that in turn shaped the movement's direction. So by 1919, the fascists had become largely identified with the pro-war, anti-communist reactionary factions that operated little militias out in the countryside. (Sound familiar?) And even Hitler employed the word "Socialist" in his party's name, though it evolved along lines almost identical to Mussolini's, but much more swiftly and with a great deal more fervor.
475. spudboy - Aug. 9, 1999 - 12:30 AM PT
And now, on a lighter note, from a recent edition of The Onion:
Post-Modern Condition Upgraded To Pre-Apocalyptic
CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA--The "postmodern" condition of alienated, disjointed late-20th-century humanity was officially upgraded to "pre-apocalyptic" Monday, when new findings from leading postmodernist theorist Richard Rorty were published in the new issue of Semiotexte. "I was flipping through the cable channels the other night, trying to get an abstract sense of the way emergent processes of change and transformation generated by contemporary high-tech society are challenging cultural assumptions regarding diverse aesthetic forms to create a novel state of history," Rorty said, "when, all of a sudden, I realized that everything I was looking at was the biggest load of unimaginably horrific crap ever." At this point in the socio-cultural discourse, Rorty said, the key question is no longer whether or not social fragmentation, cultural meta-juxtaposition and socioeconomic problematics require new modes of experience and interpretation, but rather, "When will the seven-headed dragon of the End Times descend upon us all in unholy fury?"
476. AzureNW - Aug. 9, 1999 - 11:44 AM PT
spudboy -
Those industrious citizen-farmers should get their butts off the government dole and get the training they need to fill the abundance of jobs high-tech industry is creating in the West. What is it really costing to subsidize failing farms in this country?
And I'm not at all convinced that the land will be used with less sensitivity if it is owned and controlled by larger legal entities than family farms. A large muti-state corporation is subject to more oversight and regulation by government agencies than small owner-operated businesses are. There are plenty of examples of public health and welfare being better served by larger regulated entities. One that comes to my mind immeadiately is the proliferation of tiny underregulated water districts in my area pumping some of the most toxic drinking water in the nation out of the ground and into people's homes. The toxins are the result of animal manure and farm chemicals used by small farmers who bitterly resist the slightest regulation of their private businesses. The water they are poisioning is their own drinking water. That's how dense, stubborn and selfish many of these industrious citizen-farmers following Jefferson's ideal really are.
477. AzureNW - Aug. 9, 1999 - 11:55 AM PT
spudboy, you know that the four dams on the lower Snake River whos removal is being debated in Congress only serve to save the wheat farmers a few transportation bucks, don't you? How much is the debate over those farmers nice country lifestyle choice costing the public?
478. pellenilsson - Aug. 9, 1999 - 12:31 PM PT
spudboy
"Thus Mussolini nominally proclaimed himself a "socialist"
in his beginnings (1912-14)."
Nothing nominal about it. Check this
479. spudboy - Aug. 9, 1999 - 12:32 PM PT
Azure: I'm intimately familiar with the debate surrounding the removal of the four dams. Suffice to say that Slade Gorton and Larry Craig are the chief defenders of the dams. I have little sympathy for the farmers' positions.
There is a reason, though, that the government subsidizes farming in this country. It's a little thing called the food supply. All those urban workers in high-tech industries need to eat too. Or do you think it just magically appears on the grocery shelves? Do you think both the price and the supply are stable just by accident? Or were you aware that the purpose of subsidization is to create economic stability in the agricultural sector so that we can have a steady and stable food supply?
And your proposal to uproot everyone living in a rural society and simply train them for high-tech work is laughably impractical. It's also incredibly short-sighted. You seem oblivious to the cultural difference. It's kind of like saying, "Those Indians oughta just get off the reservation and find work in the cities, become like white men." It ain't gonna happen.
But even if you're willing to blithely consign American small-farming culture to the ashheap of history -- and I admit up front that this may be simply an inevitable outcome anyway -- my point all along (and certainly the point of the book) is that movements like the Patriots are going to be the predictable product of this kind of major social upheaval. Don't think you can bring this change about without paying a price. The Patriots are that price.
480. AzureNW - Aug. 9, 1999 - 2:06 PM PT
spudboy,
I'm talking about eliminating subsidies and letting the market eliminate the overproduction the subsidies support. That isn't all farm produce, only the excess supply.
And I'm not recommending that everyone living in a rural society be uprooted. People in rural communities can live anywhere they want to. But training should be readily available to those who chose to get a good job where good jobs exist. Those who choose live where there is no work can live in extreme poverty, if their rural society actually means that much to them.
481. spudboy - Aug. 9, 1999 - 3:25 PM PT
Azure: Since you and I are both employed in high-tech work, I understand that it's tempting to view it as a bottomless resource for employment (particularly given the current workforce demand). But it's not a be-all/end-all industry, and certainly not the only answer for how people make a living.
I meant to point out that the situation involving the four Lower Snake River dams that you mentioned is actually one that tends to shred your thesis that corporate farmers will be better neighbors than small family farmers. Those dams currently provide irrigation water to a total of 9 farms -- all big corporate operations. And it is they who are putting up the big fuss. It is they who have enlisted the help of Gorton and Craig (do you really think those would have gotten involved if there had been just a few family farms involved?). That's how the system operates.
You are being touchingly naïve if you think that big corporations are going to be better neighbors. They can just ignore and bend regulations till they're virtually nonexistent, and then if someone tries to enforce them, they get the politicians who're in their pocket to go to bat for them. And heaven forfend if some environmentalist should try to change the way they operate. Look at what has happened to the dam-removal proponents.
So when you ask how much the taxpayers should have to pay subsidize these guys, you should remember that you're asking this question about *corporate* farms. And I agree: The longer they drag their feet, the more it is costing all of us, particularly in lost salmon species. The bizarre thing is that shutting down the dams won't even hurt them, at least not seriously; since the water level will simply drop, they will merely have to lower their intake valves by about 10 feet and they'll still have the same water supply. And conservationists have offered to pick up the tab for doing that.
482. AzureNW - Aug. 9, 1999 - 3:46 PM PT
Big corporations won't find it as easy to buy public policy in the future as they have in the past. It's much easier to see the manipulations of a politician like Slade Gordon now than it was before the existence of tools like the internet. I think his career is in more trouble than he realizes. A lot of people sincerely hate his guts now who barely thought of him a few years ago. It's easy for his constituents to see he is not representing them.
483. allaneq - Aug. 9, 1999 - 5:07 PM PT
Existing Fraygrants;
We would like to invite you to try the new Fray, currently available in beta here. You should notice some significant changes, and we encourage you to read the FAQ available in the Fray Beta thread, if you have any questions. Over the long-term, Slate is working to provide a way let our readers provide feedback to the editors, and to build more of a sense of community among our readers. We hope that the newly redesigned Fray is a step in that direction.
You'll notice that the new Fray is structured around Slate itself, with a thread per department. After the beta is complete, you will be able to easily post feedback to an article, using a simple link at the bottom of each page. As the reader comment is added to each department's thread, we will select the best posts from each thread in the Fray and posting links to them at the bottom of the article itself, for other Slate readers to peruse and comment on. We have also made a Tech Support thread available here, and during the beta test, you can post your comments, complaints, or bug reports in our beta test thread, available here. Take a look around, test the waters, and let us know what you think.
Thanks,
Wes Miller
Program Manager
Slate Magazine
484. spudboy - Aug. 9, 1999 - 10:38 PM PT
Wes: Well, it's quite clear that Slate intends to kill discussions precisely like the one that's taken place here, since this thread would never exist under the new format. I guess I can close up shop and go home.
The new approach is indistinguishable from MSNBC's BBS forum (or a million others, for that matter). Though I work there, I vastly preferred this format because it allowed for lengthy, in-depth debate and discussion and created a real sense of community. That is completely lacking from the new setup.
If, as you say in your e-mail, your intent was to "build more of a sense of community" here, you went in precisely the wrong direction. Bad, bad move. Expect me -- and probably most of the current Fraygrants -- to move elsewhere after the change.
485. ChristinO - Aug. 10, 1999 - 11:14 AM PT
Sorry to interrupt, but with the death of the Fray I wanted to get this out there: I am now registered at both Suite101 and Salon's Table Talk as ChristinO.
You can reach me by e-mail at Cocuddehy@hotmail.com.
I will likely be changing my log-in ID and e-mail address but I'll let folks know before I do it.
I'll be around here until the bitter end to see everybody, but I look forward to romping with you all in other pastures in the near future and just wanted to let everyone know where I was.
486. allaneq - Aug. 10, 1999 - 4:01 PM PT
Greetings. A few quick notes/updates on the new Fray.
1:We're going to remove the host address in the new Fray this afternoon, and it should be reflected by tomorrow morning at the latest - so, you can post in complete privacy.
2:I'm looking into populating the username with your Slate login.
3:Several people have commented on the "delayed post" issue, and that the message which says it takes 2 minutes to show up.
This isn't technically true. It's actually 30 seconds. Why? Because the new Fray uses a very different (non-database based) architecture, so it should be more reliable under high server load, and faster.
Technical stuff out of the way...
First off, I apologize that the new Fray wasn't what you all had hoped for. The _last thing_ I had in mind while working on this feature was isolating/expunging our existing users. In fact, the primary goal was actually to get MORE interaction, and MORE of a community feeling going in the Fray. In fact, we wanted to have the beta _for_you_all_, and our hope was soliciting some great feedback _from_you_.
Secondly, our updates to/through our Tech support team should have been much better before the beta. I'll make sure that in the future, we keep Slate's reader community apprised of our goals and objectives as I can.
Tomorrow, I'll be creating a new general interest thread in the new Fray, which will be open discussion on any topic.
I'd really like to take this opportunity to invite you all to the new Fray, and tell you that I hope you will continue to participate in Slate's user forums. If you have concerns or issues, please post them in our beta feedback thread here - I WILL be watching for your feedback!
Thanks,
Wes Miller
Program Manager
Slate Magazine
487. spudboy - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:47 PM PT
I want to thank everyone who took the time to participate in this thread. It was great fun, particularly since I had the time to go into some detail of things that were only briefly covered in the book itself. I especially want to thank Irv for setting it up and getting it started.
I did promise I'd provide an address for anyone who wants their copy autographed to send it to me. I'll get it back to you quickly, I promise. I'd like to ask everyone to drop three bucks into the book to cover my return mail costs, if possible:
David Neiwert
P.O. Box 17283
Seattle, WA 98107
Best wishes to everyone. I'll probably stick around for closing farewells, so we'll see you all in the appropriate forum for that.
488. stamper - Aug. 10, 1999 - 10:55 PM PT
spudboy
you and i didn't talk much 'cause you weren't big in the play pen or home and garden but i want to thank you for that great discussion on jury nullification. that was a pip and worth my $20 so even though i only been on since march 14 bill can keep the balance. hell, i got my money's worth.
489. bloodnfire - Aug. 11, 1999 - 2:45 AM PT
I want to thank you too, Spudboy. I am enjoying the book, and hope to continue hearing from you on whatever Forum we are all able to establish elsewhere.
Over in the Technical Thread PincherMartin posted..."Would you be willing to give twenty a year for a subscription to this, even though you wouldn't have access to any of the other goodies that Slate provides?"
I don't mean to be rude, and I am posting this comment here because I cannot get access to a 'post a comment' on the technical thread any more, (Slate is probably sick of them). I would be delighted to give $20 or $40 per year to maintain this stimulating Forum elsewhere, providing I was GUARANTEED that I wouldn't have access to any of the other 'goodies' that Slate offers.
490. uzmakk - Aug. 11, 1999 - 3:29 AM PT
Let us not jump to conclusions, Spud, but apparently it was some chap from Washington state who went all the way down to LA to shoot up a Jewish community center. Does it relate?
491. arkymalarky - Aug. 11, 1999 - 5:45 AM PT
I'm looking forward to getting my copy of your book, Spuds. WSU said it would be a week, so it should come in in three or four days. I look forward to reading it, and maybe discussing it and the topic in general in another forum. I'd love to read any insights you have wrt AR connections. We've talked about Kehoe and Snell before. I know the earliest group I ever heard of which was along this line was The Covenant, Sword, and Arm of the Lord. It's been a long time, though, and I don't remember a lot of details.
492. AzureNW - Aug. 11, 1999 - 12:59 PM PT
So the guy who shot five kids in a Jewish daycare in LA yesterday was a character from the margins of spudboy's book. What a waste.
493. uzmakk - Aug. 12, 1999 - 6:40 AM PT
One might draw the conclusion that Spudboy's book is important, prescient, and timely, hey Azure?
494. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 12, 1999 - 11:01 AM PT
Spuds:
I hope you're not packing it in for this thread already... we still have a little time left.
Do you have any background on the LA gunman who a couple of people have already asked about?
495. ChristinO - Aug. 12, 1999 - 11:13 AM PT
From what I'm reading in the LA Times he was from Washington state but spent some time living near the northern Idaho Aryan Nations compound teaching hand-to-hand combat.
496. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 1:41 PM PT
Here is an Associated Press story about the gunman:
497. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
/*
Metaline Falls –
The man who turned himself in Wednesday in the shooting of five people at a Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles has a painfully familiar history: a low-profile loner with racist leanings and a nasty temper.
Buford O'Neal Furrow Jr. also was charged Wednesday in Los Angeles with killing a postal worker who was shot Tuesday near the community center.
Those who remember Furrow in Washington state paint a picture of a lonely, bespectacled, over-weight boy teased by his classmates. Later, he got involved with neo-Nazi groups near this Eastern Washington town and had an extended relationship with the widow of a hate-group founder killed in a shootout with police.
After the relationship ended last year, Furrow tried to commit himself to a private mental hospital in Western Washington, telling the staff at Fairfax Psychiatric Hospital “he was thinking about suicide and shooting people at Alderwood Mall” north of Seattle.
“Sometimes I feel like I could just lose it and kill people,” Furrow was quoted as saying in charging papers from the King County prosecutor's office.
He was charged Nov. 2 with second-degree assault, accused of attacking a Fairfax nurse with a knife after apparently changing his mind about admission and demanding his car keys back. Deputies found a 9mm handgun, ammunition and four knives in the car. He pleaded guilty and served about five months in the county jail before his release May 21.
(cont.)
498. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
Furrow, 37, was remembered as a quiet guy by those who had contact with him here and in a rural area at the south end of Puget Sound, where he grew up and reportedly graduated from Timberline High School in 1979.
Former junior-high schoolmate Loni Merrill, who now lives in the rural Nisqually River Valley, remembers Furrow was teased about his allergy medication: “He was a loner, a kind of bookish guy – what they'd call a nerd these days. But he was always nice to me. He wasn't somebody who stood out. He was somebody who nobody knew.”
He didn't make much of an impression in Metaline Falls, either, though neighbors were aware of his racist beliefs.
“He was pleasant and friendly. I never saw any of his violent side,” said rancher Meda VanDyke, 82, who lives just outside this remote timber town of 230 people in the Selkirk Mountain foothills near the Idaho border.
Furrow was linked to the Los Angeles shooting through his van with Washington state plates, which was abandoned near the scene. Inside, investigators found ammunition, bulletproof vests and devices that may be smoke grenades, but no weapons.
(cont.)
499. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 1:43 PM PT
Furrow apparently had addresses in Rosamond, California, near Los Angeles, in 1993 and 1994, but locals say he lived here for several years with Debbie Mathews, whose husband Robert J. Mathews, founded the neo-Nazi group The Order, a violent off-shoot of the Idaho-based Aryan Nations. Robert Mathews was killed in 1984 when his hideout caught fire during a shootout with federal agents on Whidbey Island in Puget Sound.
Aryan Nations founder Richard Butler said he believes he married Furrow and Debbie Mathews around 1996, though the union was not recorded with authorities.
In a telephone interview Wednesday from his compound at Hayden Lake, Idaho,, Butler said Furrow may have attended services at his Church of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nations) a few times several years ago, but he did not know him well. Furrow may also have served as a security guard during the group's Aryan World Congress gatherings in the mid-1990s, he said.
Asked what might have motivated Tuesday's shootings, Butler replied: “The war against the white race. There's a war of extermination against the white male.”
A woman who answered the phone at the number listed for Debbie Mathews hung up on two Associated Press reporters Wednesday. “I don't speak to reporters,” she said.
(cont.)
500. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 1:43 PM PT
There was no sign of her on her property, which is posted with “No Trespassing “ signs.
Michael Reynolds of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama, which tracks hate groups and has a file on Furrow, said Furrow's actions are consistent with beliefs of the so-called Phineas Priesthood, which is opposed to inter-racial marriage and the charging of interest by banks. That loose-knit group also has been linked to 1996 spokane-area bombings and bank robberies, and to recent attacks on synagogues in Sacramento, Reynolds said.
Former Aryan Nations member Floyd Cochran said he mt Furrow at the group's northern Idaho compound in 1991 and 1992.
“We had basic conversations about Jews running the world,” Cochran said in a telephone interview Wednesday from his home in Moshannon, PA.
Furrow “was not any more violent than other people there,” said Cochran, who now lectures in opposition to hate groups. “He had a fascination with guns, but at the Aryan Nations if you didn't have a fascination with guns you might get shot.”
He said Furrow also “was fascinated with where did the money form the Order go,” adding: “That might explain his fascination with Debbie Mathews.”
(cont.)
501. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 1:44 PM PT
After Robert Mathews' death, 22 Order members were jailed on racketeering charges, accused in the 1984 murder of Denver radio talk-show host Alan Berg and of robberies that netted more than $4 million – one third of which was never recovered.
Cochran said Furrow also had dated Jeannie Yarbrough, whose husband was among those imprisoned, and that he'd heard Furrow used to dig in Yarbrough's yard, apparently looking for money.
Furrow worked for just over a year as a mechanic at a farm-implement dealership in nearby Colville, but was let go in December 1995 due to a lack of work.
Co-workers remember him as a hard worker, but mechanic Dan Villers said Wednesday he wasn't surprised by the shootings.
“He was very racial. He did not like blacks and Jews,” Villers said.
“Knowing him…he didn't do it on his own. I don't know if he did it to prove his loyalty to the Aryans, but I have a hard time believing he conjured this up on his own,” the mechanic said.
Furrow left the area last year.
“I think Mathews dumped him a year or so ago, and I haven't seen him since,” the town marshal, Rick Reiber, told the Spokesman-Review newspaper of Spokane.
*/
502. spudboy - Aug. 12, 1999 - 4:22 PM PT
Sorry, gang, but this whole thing has kept me very busy indeed. But to quickly answer your questions (and secondarily to let y'all see what I've been up to), here are a couple of pieces that should help:
My piece on Furrow and the legacy of The Order
My colleague Bobbi Nodell's excellent piece on Furrow's history
503. AzureNW - Aug. 12, 1999 - 5:09 PM PT
Thanks, spudboy!
My husband saw me looking through your book and is very interested in reading it. Although we both have lived around militia sympathizers all our lives, their motivations are so outlandish and irrational that neither of us really have much of an idea what they are thinking or planning. They are clearly more of a threat than either of us believed.
We're going to start reading it tomorrow, after we finish the last two chapters of _One Hundred Years of Solitude_. (What a mesmerizing introduction to life in Columbia that novel has been. I would recommend it to anyone trying to understand why people there act the way they do.)
504. IrvingSnodgrass - Aug. 12, 1999 - 5:29 PM PT
Thanks for the links, Spuds, and the article, Azure.
I feel so well informed now when I read that stuff, knowing things like the story behind Robert Mathews.
Azure, you and your husband will find the book well-written, inofmative and even-handed. It's an excellent read, and after a few pages you'll forget about the small type.
505. pellenilsson - Aug. 13, 1999 - 1:26 AM PT
Great piece, Spuds. By now you must be *the* authority on these groups and their intricate relationships.
506. AzureNW - Aug. 13, 1999 - 11:45 AM PT
spudboy will be reading from his book at the University Book Store on University Avenue in Seattle, on Wednesday, Aug. 18, at 7:00pm. So sez the What's Happening section of the Seattle PI.
507. stamper - Aug. 13, 1999 - 6:22 PM PT
AzureNW
oh
wa
ta
goo
siam
now here i was driving from grand coolie dam to omak and i did not even know i was driving through an indian reservation until i looked at a map afterward. dolly and me when we take off driving we don't plan ahead but just go where the road takes us. i did not know all about omak and its history like you and Mr. Snodgrass.
508. labarjare - Aug. 17, 1999 - 6:04 PM PT
Well, now having the opportunity to pop in briefly, I thought I would see what had gone on in this thread recently and what was going on re the demise of the Fray.
Although I thought the interchanges among Spuds, FTC and pelle to be engrossing, I guess it shouldn't be much a surprise that things are really grinding to a halt.
At any rate, it is nice to see the Fray have such a terrific thread at the end. Very nice work, Spuds. And, by the way, The Sound and the Fury discussion remains my personal high point in terms of enjoyment on the Fray. Thanks for that one, too.
I did want to make another comment or two. I had wanted to mention (and see that Spuds has alluded to this above) that one of the most absorbing and encouraging aspects about Spuds' book was his relating of the quiet courage and effectiveness of the decent people who have to live with and cope with the Patriots. It is easy enough for those of us who live in the anonymity of a large city to tsk tsk and wonder how those "nuts" get by with it. Much more difficult scene if, say, you are a law enforcement officer who also happens to be a single mother living way out in the country who is being followed home at night and getting ominous threats and various "messages" and being told, more or less, that she will have to just rough it out.
So much more could be said, but....