5755. CalGal - June 5, 1999 - 5:31 PM PT
Wabbit,
Hey, thanks. I don't have any books on Frost himself (although I can sense a purchase coming soon.) and I hadn't had time to do a search online.
I think it's interesting that, if I read him right, he concedes that it might be a "death poem". Because the poem is very much about the pause before a choice. So combine death and choice and there you have it, Mr. Frost.
I also think it makes sense that he is more interested in the way his poems sound and work as poems, rather than as having meaning, their symbolism, etc. Speaking for myself, the *only* aspect of poetry I find interesting is its meaning and how the words used contribute to it. I do not recommend this approach, but it's not one consciously chosen.
5756. arkymalarky - June 5, 1999 - 5:39 PM PT
"Speaking for myself, the *only* aspect of poetry I find interesting is its meaning and how the words used contribute to it."
All the subtleties and images and countless details which make a great poem are what I enjoy about the study of poetry and they're what make me frustrated at any attempts at composition myself. I really admire the people who share their poetry here, and I love unique images and details and perceptions I read in their poems. I think Ryck, in particular, has grown poetically in the time I've been here, and I enjoy feeling a part of the process just by lurking.
Also, I love reading a great poem over through the years and seeing something new or more clearly each time.
5757. wabbit - June 5, 1999 - 5:46 PM PT
CalGal,
There is quite a lot available online about Frost; this page has an extensive list of the poems. There are audio clips available of Frost reading some his poems too, though not SBW.
5758. CalGal - June 5, 1999 - 5:50 PM PT
Arky,
"All the subtleties and images and countless details which make a great poem are what I enjoy about the study of poetry"
Well, I like that too--but only in how it contributes to the meaning.
If you read from wabbit's link here:
"he told his audience that the thing which had given him most pleasure in composing the poem was the effortless sound of that couplet about the horse and what it does when stopped by the woods: 'He gives his harness bells a shake/ To ask if there is some mistake.' . . . Frost's fondness for this couplet suggests that however much he cared about the 'larger' issues or question which 'Stopping By Woods. . .' raises and provokes, he wanted to direct his readers away from solemnly debating them; instead he invited them simply to be pleased with how he had put it."
It seems as if he acknowledges the larger issue but is saying, "People, if I'd wanted to write a damn essay on the options of suicide, I would have. Instead, I wrote a beautiful poem. How about reading *that*, thankyouverymuch."
And he's right. But what I find interesting about poetry is that such a few lines can say so much. That's the elegance of it. To read it just for the sound, the image, the word choices--in short, to appreciate it as a poem--without the attempt to find the meaning is something that has never interested me. I am not the sort who reads poetry for fun.
On the plus side, I'm also not the sort who insists that all art have an ultimate interpretation, or only one interpretation, or even any interpretation at all. But periodically, when it screams out at me, I notice.
5759. stamper - June 5, 1999 - 6:25 PM PT
CalGal
what is so sad today that people seem to feel that one has to go on for higher education to enjoy poetry or literature in general. oh, many people read the spy and thriller things, but they are scared off from the really good stuff. i got a hold of Don Quixote one time and was so surprised to find that it is one of the funniest books i have ever read.
and yet when i tell people how much fun that book is they think i'm goofy, which i kind of am. i know i always say, life is a mystery, and it really is, isn't it?
now some books take probing, like maybe catcher in the rye or lord of the flies, which should be a must for every single high school freshman. i hardly read a book when i went to school 'cause teachers did everything they could to make you hate them. what does this mean, what does that mean.
take huckleberry finn. sure there are many levels of meaning, but if you are not ready for the deepest one, then enjoy it on the level you are ready for. by the time you read all of Twain you may conclude he was not the fool he let on to be. he just knew that a lot of people acting like there was nothing they didn't know were the biggest fools of all.
now i want to apologise for any offense i've been to you and will do so in any manner you will accept. rejection is a terrible thing.
5760. arkymalarky - June 5, 1999 - 6:34 PM PT
"It seems as if he acknowledges the larger issue but is saying, "People, if I'd wanted to write a damn essay on the options of suicide, I would have. Instead, I wrote a beautiful poem. How about reading *that*, thankyouverymuch."
Except we still disagree as to what the larger issue is, and he never concedes it is suicide, and only concedes in one instance that death could be concluded as an aspect of the poem, which I read almost as a concession to those who insisted it must be. His other commentary suggests other more subtle motives in the poem and he explicitly says he never intended it as a death poem.
"To read it just for the sound, the image, the word choices--in short, to appreciate it as a poem--without the attempt to find the meaning is something that has never interested me."
The meaning is an integral part of every poem, of course, and to truly read a poem the meaning can't be overlooked, any more than it can in any great work of literature. But the meaning can very rarely, in a good poem, be summed up in a word or two.
"But periodically, when it screams out at me, I notice."
That's what's so interesting about the difference in perception. The theme of suicide doesn't seem really apparent to me, though of course I can see how people may derive that theme from the poem; yet it seems obvious to you. Again, though Frost has some interesting things to say about the interpretation, and I don't think any reading would leave out suicide as an option though not a conclusive interpretation by any means, I don't think anything he says about the poem supports it as the driving theme.
5761. arkymalarky - June 5, 1999 - 6:39 PM PT
Stamper,
You know what made my dad--a high school dropout who to this day doesn't have a hs diploma--want to go back to get his PhD in literature after already having acquired an undergraduate degree in economics and polysci (and leaving a great job with the federal govt to do it, I might add)? A love of great literature, and the two books you mention are two he really enjoys. I've read Huckleberry Finn many times myself. I need to read Don Quixote again. I've also taught Lord of the Flies and the kids love it. A *good* university education only enhances and increases your love and understanding of what you already enjoy.
My husband didn't get a college degree until he was past 40 and he's always loved reading and studying and he's one of the smartest people I know.
5762. stamper - June 5, 1999 - 6:43 PM PT
arkymalarky
would you please go over to the Education Thread. i would like to tell you a couple of ideas i have about education.
5763. arkymalarky - June 5, 1999 - 6:45 PM PT
See ya there.
5764. CalGal - June 5, 1999 - 7:15 PM PT
Arky,
"Except we still disagree as to what the larger issue is, and he never concedes it is suicide, and only concedes in one instance that death could be concluded as an aspect of the poem, which I read almost as a concession to those who insisted it must be. "
Oh, as to my faux quote--whatever. My point was that he wants people to read his poetry *as poetry* because if all we're to do is peruse his poetry for meaning, he may as well write essays.
And I don't agree that he conceded on the death aspect at all. I think he was denying the suicide part--whether honestly or not--but he seemed comfortable with the death aspect. But as I said, if he concedes that and we all agree that the poem is about a choice to *not* take the death option, then death + choice = suicide.
I'm not sure that artistic intent matters--and I believe he says the same, that a poem surprises him once it is finished. My browser just crashed so I'll go back and look at the link in a bit.
"But the meaning can very rarely, in a good poem, be summed up in a word or two."
I agree. My original comment to Ace was a wry rejoinder as to why I wasn't planning on memorizing it. To say it's "about suicide" is pretty much high level categorizing, hardly a summation.
5765. CalGal - June 5, 1999 - 7:15 PM PT
The reason I think this whole discussion is interesting is because Frost was, until Shel Silverstein, *the* child-approved poet. I'm sure practically everyone here studied one of the two or three best-known Frost poems before they hit their teens--in fact, that's probably why they are the best known.
So everyone reads his poems on the surface and think they have these nice pastoral sentiments--and yet any close examination of them reveals extraordinarily bleak images and sentiments.
I mean, even if you take Stopping literally, you have a man in a sleigh by a frozen lake, miles from anyone else, wind blowing harshly, darkest night of the year, looking longingly at woods that beckon to him, though they are dark and deep. And he *wants* to stay.
5766. arkymalarky - June 5, 1999 - 7:31 PM PT
"And I don't agree that he conceded on the death aspect at all."
You're right. I didn't mean he conceded that was the meaning, but sort of made a concession to the interpreters. I got that from:
"'Ciardi and others have said--some people have said--it's a suicide poem. That's going some. But he thinks it's a death poem. And you can see how you could say: 'Life is lovely, dark and deep.' See. 'But I have promises to keep. I have heaven to go to, you know.' Like that. You could do that. That analogy's in it.'"
5767. patsyrolph - June 5, 1999 - 10:45 PM PT
My goodness gracious, John Ciardi wrote his suicide speculation in 1945 and folks still seem to be arguing about it. It was published, of course, in the Saturday Review and for many issues after publication readers were writing letters of amger or agreement to the magazine. I thought the whole thing was moderately funny. I agreed with Ciardi
but then I was a 16 year-old at UCLA and given to gloomy reflections.
5768. CalGal - June 5, 1999 - 10:59 PM PT
Patsy,
Oddly enough, I knew nothing of the fuss until well after I had read the poem and come to the same conclusion independently. I had to write an analysis of it back in highschool. The teacher didn't fuss about it; in fact, I was unaware that it was a subject of controversy until some time in college when I chose several Frost poems for analysis and casually mentioned that the speaker in it was contemplating suicide. Someone vehemently pointed out that Frost denied it. I was taken aback. What on earth did he *think* he was writing about, I asked.
I should read up on the actual controversy at some point.
5769. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 6:43 AM PT
Fascinating, quite absorbing, that is (for me) it's been so long since participation has included analysis, I find myself a bit ecstatic.
I haven't read Frost since fifth grade, unfortunately that may have been the last grade in which I found poetry interesting. Sure I read it but, as stamper suggested, the teachers insistance upon debate and meaning interupted any value for a carefree teen. Now it's as if the meaning and debate are paramount, with the words creating sound, images, metaphor and expanding imagination. These last posts make my yearning to read more poignant. I wish I had taken literature in college, how it could have been a spark so much earlier, I know I was searching back then, it was just not found.
If I may I would like to forward my ever so humble opinion with regard to the Frost "Snow" poem.
It is best to observe the timely link provided by wabbit. What I would have said prior to that link was the poem had excellent face value, with allowances that people will have connections or meanings they bring into metaphor interpretation. I agree that Calgal can see the depth of thought toward suicide the words portray and yet I know for myself that rides or walks in the woods are totally cool for me. I just love them. The walk is the meaning, the stopping and being there is the meaning. That's it for me. Anyway, this is what I mean wrt "meanings they bring into metaphor interpretation."
5770. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 6:55 AM PT
Also, Calgal thanks for the Frost link. I admit that every link to poets I've discovered in here is in my favorites. And then of course the many I have discovered using my spider search engines.
JamesWright,
The "Minneapolis Poem" will have to wait a bit, I've not the funds to buy the anthalogy in which I discovered it the other day. It's in hard cover with so many wonderful poems, I must have it. The author is the duplicate of your moniker. I focused in on the name as it appeared in the index, went to the page and read of vagrants, death, hard life and such. It was a poignant look at vagrant life in the Twin Cities. There are quite a few such explorations and I believe these are common knowledge. When an explanation of vagrancy is needed I think of Minneapolis and the old bar district, now long since demolished. Flop house tenements, apartments and the like.
5771. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 6:57 AM PT
oops, index was supposed to be CONTENTS.
5772. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 7:12 AM PT
Humble Pie
***
Confessions make...
Sought, seek, not sly
Times gone
At last cry
Remembering when...
Force, push, do try
Momentum
Can it fly
Balustrade ascent...
Rail, atop, to grab
Compelling
Walk the mile
Collection crashes...
Stop, lost, to hope
Humble pie
To the end
5773. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 7:39 AM PT
Do any of you have a comprhensive link to Langston Hughes works? I have yet to find works by him at Half Priced Books. I can't afford the costs at the Hungry Mind I need a discount or links in the web.
Um... since I've three spiders I suppose I could just look.
So, when I find anything, are there any poets who would like some too?
5774. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 7:44 AM PT
This is my kind of site. I could paste a poem, but visiting will open the plethora of poetry. Langston Hughes poetry awaits.
5775. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 7:48 AM PT
Double Damn! The copywrite people have the link in limbo. No poetry to read. I'm aghast and frustrated. So, I'll have to save up and buy a second hand book. Damn!
5776. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 8:00 AM PT
Here's a tidbit of Hughes. Barely enough to wet the palate. boohab introduced me to Hughes and I've searched for more two years now. I hope it comes to the forefront, missing it is missing out.
5777. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 8:06 AM PT
The problem with finding a second hand book of Hughes is there don't seem to be any. I've been to no less than four second hand stores lately looking for some and none exists. Saving for a thirty dollar book seems a waste when I could buy as many as five with that same money. The anthalogy I want is $18, but it's an anthalogy, they expose me to huge variaty and seem worth it. I've bought two of them so far. They last two paper backs not more than $8. What's a budget shopper to do? Patience, oh, patience, my friend and guide, my long time companion, holding me upright, lending it's smile.
5778. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 8:11 AM PT
aurevior, ciao, sélamat tinggal, goodbye
5779. stamper - June 6, 1999 - 11:12 AM PT
RyckNelson
what you say about teachers (bad ones, not good ones like arky and phillipdavid) ruining poetry goes for books, too.
i am reminded of a line from a poem, i can't remember the whole poem or the whole line. "mind forged manacles i see."
i hope that makes sense to you. i think the poet was William Blake, one of my favorites.
i have to go 'cause Dolly wants an outing real soon, and i have to go over to the Play Pen for a bit. that is my normal haunt ever since CalGal told me to take it to the Play Pen. sometimes i break out, though
5780. RyckNelson - June 6, 1999 - 5:51 PM PT
Stamper, of the original three poetry books I purchased two were William Blake. His is a different world, eh?
Today, after a trip to Lake Harriet's Rose, Japanese and Perrenial Gardens the wife and I strolled up and down Grand Ole' Day on none other than Grand Ave. in St.Paul. The four hours of people watching, listening to bands virtually the whole length and walking among the throng ended (for me) predictably at the Hungry Mind. Giving my perusing another chance at a less expensive variaty of book I searched the anthologies. I spotted a thin volume titled "African-American Poetry: An Anthology. Within the contents I observed five poems by Langston Hughes. None very long, the anthology was after all quite thin. I looked at the price and discovered a one dollar book. Grinning ear to ear I bought it. So far I've discovered Phillis Wheatley Peters and George Moses Horton, along with the five Hughes poems.
I fear I'm infringing upon copyrights to post his work because the acknowledgements write of the five poems having permission for print because of the Estate of Langston Hughes.
I need copyright advice, can I post any poem here. I am doing so in reverence, wanting discussion, often obtaining none, yet that is the desire. Even if the discussion is only acknowledgement of the writers skill or lack thereof.
From Langston Hughes "I, TOO"
"I, too, sing America."
This includes me, no?
5781. stamper - June 6, 1999 - 7:05 PM PT
RyckNelson
i like the way you talk!
AceOfSpades
is that last stanza in Design much different than blake's
tyger, tyger, burning bright,
in the forest of the night.
what imortal hand or eye,
framed such fearful symmetry.
CalGal
i would love to share a something from a book i love that touches on your mentioning of calvin. but it seems you have made up your mind, i am not worth dealing with. how sad for me... and maybe, just maybe both of us
5782. cmboyce - June 6, 1999 - 9:51 PM PT
Wow! Wonderful postings on Frost. Wish I'd been around for it.
Here's another that like "Stopping By Woods" has been cited as counter-suicidal but that may just as well refer to sticking to one's intentions, or, most simply, it may be an account of a simple event, with a (very slightly) ironically humorous closing. I myself think that, like SBW, it is "about" the seductiontiveness of melancholy. Anyway, here 'tis:
Come In
As I came to the edge of the woods,
Thrush music—hark!
Now if it was dusk outside,
Inside it was dark.
Too dark in the woods for a bird
By sleight of wing
To better its perch for the night,
Though it still could sing.
The last of the light of the sun
That had died in the west
Still lived for one song more
In a thrush's breast.
Far in the pillared dark
Thrush music went—
Almost like a call to come in.
To the dark and lament.
But no, I was out for stars:
I would not come in.
I meant not even if asked;
And I hadn't been.
5783. cmboyce - June 6, 1999 - 10:19 PM PT
Stamper, I think your comparison of the Blake and the Frost lines is good; but I think there is a noteworthy difference between them. Blake's question is rhetorical; he presumes God "framed such fearful symmetry" and his message is one of the power of the Creator. But Frost's questions, imo, while similarly rhetorical, have a kicker with a very different meaning.
First he asks "What but design of darkness to appall?—" paraphrasable as "What else could this be but a setup by 'darkness'—Powers of Darkness if you wish, or evil; some negative principle at any rate—to appall us and so confute the promise of dawn". The response elicited may be "Well, gee, I guess so", but I doubt if that's what he was aiming at, but rather a rejecting "Hey, it could be lots of things!" or "God works in mysterious ways" or any of various imaginable denials, all informed by revulsion both at the image's horrible aspect and by the imputation that evil is confuting, can confute, life's promise (for the conventional answerer that rhetorical questions suppose, believes in God, at least would have in Frost's world, just as the answerers presumed by Blake would).
*Then*, the kicker, "If design govern in a thing so small". Here the rhetorical question presumes the answer, "Of course, it does. If the universe is designed (and the same answerer believes it designed and designed by God), then that design governs all things, great and small, and therefore this." And so we are left at the close with the materials with which to suppose horror a part of the universal plan, and the poem opens up from an exquisite etching of a moment of natural horror to a vast (and dark, or perhaps better given the "white" image, livid) metaphysical worry.
5784. CalGal - June 6, 1999 - 11:01 PM PT
CMBoyce,
Thank you. Why weren't you here yesterday, when everyone was telling me what a lovely poem it was? I find it a terrifying vision, myself.
5785. CalGal - June 6, 1999 - 11:02 PM PT
Although it *is* a lovely poem, of course.
5786. cmboyce - June 6, 1999 - 11:15 PM PT
CalGal, it is certainly a lovely poem. But I don't find it a terrifying vision, just an acknowledgement that horror and death are aspects of pleasure and life, opposite sides of the coin to be trite. Great poets can give trite ideas new life, as here.
I don't think Frost intended to induce terrifying visions at all; rather: dry, ironic, even humorous (I find this last line rather arch; the last of "Come In" is downright funny, and certainly humor is important in many Frost poems) acceptance of the ills and evils there are in life, and an insistence that such honest mordancy is a quite proper way to view things (_and_, an observation that I think is quite germaine to SBW, that this is or can be, a _sustaining_ vision).
5787. CalGal - June 6, 1999 - 11:33 PM PT
You don't have to find it terrifying (hence the "myself"); I'm just relieved you see what I'm talking about. It's when I say, "ACCKKKKK! There's a GHOST!" and someone says, "What the hell are you talking about? It's just a little kitty cat!" that I worry that maybe I'm misreading.
Someone who says, "Awwww, relax. It says, 'Boo!' What's to fuss about?" at least sees the damn ghost.
I also agree with your interpretation of his tone. But the heart of his vision was very dark--as you say, he insists that this honesty about the bleakness of life is the right and proper way to view it. As I said in Message #5752, though, "In fact, he chooses to find the good in life and in any place he is, even with the sadness."
5788. stamper - June 6, 1999 - 11:52 PM PT
cmboyce
could it be that both blake and frost rejoice in the mystery of life? yes, blake saw god in life, but he saw the mystery of god in life. "could he who made the lamb make thee?"
it is a question, not rhetorical. he accepts god, but he does not understand him.
cm, life is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. the mystery to me is why will CalGal not acknowledge me? does she think i came here to poke fun at people, to disrupt? or what?
CalGal, what has happened to me as stamper is so mysterious to me that i hardly know how to express it.
if i have to leave here, which i will soon, without your blessing, my heart will be heavy. i do not often open myself like this, and i can not explain why...
5789. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 12:06 AM PT
Message #5787
"In fact, he chooses to find the good in life and
in any place he is, even with the sadness."
I wholeheartedly agree. It is at the heart of his sense of things, and therefore of his poetry. But the sadness is a given.
Message #5788
"Could it be that both blake and frost rejoice in the mystery of life? yes,
blake saw god in life, but he saw the mystery of god in life. 'could he
who made the lamb make thee?' "
Yes, yes! That too is excellent? I don't know if you saw my posts in Religion, but imo God *is* mystery, and mystery is the cause for rejoicing that yields the human impulse to the joyousness in religions. Also some of the others, I dare say, but nemmine that for now. I think your observation on Blake and Frost is excellent; you have a mighty nice literary sensibility; it doesn't do your Hank Stamper imitation much good, but it must relieve the boredom of tugboating, eh?
5790. stamper - June 7, 1999 - 12:10 AM PT
cmboyce
i'm bipoler
5791. JamesWright - June 7, 1999 - 5:35 AM PT
Ryck:
I was wrong: I have read and do have "The Minneapolis Poem."
1.
I wonder how many old men last winter
Hungry and frightened by namelessness prowled
The Mississippi shore
Lashed blind by the wind, dreaming
Of suicide in the river.
The police remove their cadavers by daybreak
And turn them in somewhere.
Where?
How does the city keep lists of its fathers
Who have no names?
By Nicollet Island I gaze down at the dark water
So beautifully slow.
And I wish my brothers good luck
And a warm grave.
2. etc.
5792. bubbaette - June 7, 1999 - 5:38 AM PT
James Wright
Have you heard from Seamus? I lost his e-mail address when my darlin reconfigured our e-mail program. If you hear from him, tell him to come back.
5793. JamesWright - June 7, 1999 - 5:50 AM PT
I guess for those city fathers, the river was lovely, dark and deep. A poet like Frost cannot be taken seriously when proclaiming that he "only meant" such and such in a poem. Two paths diverging in a wood, Frost sometimes claimed, was only a metaphor for his poet friend being wishy-washy. And in the poem, the paths are different and yet the same. Equally worn, they equally lie before him. Only the chooser makes the paths different. But a poem is not the same thing as the impulse that began it. And Frost was a smartass. He knew better than most what snow means: peace, purity, cold, sterility, patience, suppression of life, a masking, old age, death, the grave, beauty, nature, wildness, surrender, or even warmth, depending on the context.
Ryck:
Post as much Hughes as you want. When they come for you, I'll man the barricades.
5794. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 6:44 AM PT
Frost was a New Englander, writing of the farm country and things (little blue foxes, horses, woods in the snow) he knew best, so that the bulk of his works seem to me as dated as Victorian throws. To ascribe a deeper, philosophical dimension such as musings on suicide to his work is misplaced. Sure he was observant, sure he had a good ear for language and the well-crafted phrase but for sure he becomes somewhat of a quaint curiousity like the tools peculiar to 19th century farming.
5795. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 7:08 AM PT
I think you are missing a great deal in Frost's poetry to sum it up in that way.
5796. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:10 AM PT
Yes, you are welcome to your opinion.
5797. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 7:19 AM PT
Loar,
It's certainly good of you to come in here and tell us how it really is. How else would we know what to think?
5798. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 7:29 AM PT
Message #5794
ScottLoar,
you've really missed a boat here, imo. Frost is very much a modernist, an ironist. His country schtick is closer to Williams than to his contemporaries, the Edwardians, who really were relics of Victorian times. (Of course, the great Victorians—Tennyson, Browning, etc—were not such pedestrian creatures either). I think most 20th-century poets and writers on poetry regard Frost as the first of the important American figures on this side of the great divide that seems to separate 19th and 20th century attitudes. Hardy, and perhaps Yeats, are the corresponding figure in British poetry.
There is a persistent strain of the dark, melancholy, psychologically interested, often fatalistic set of attitudes that characterize the modern, and his treatement of them is quite compelling, to my mind. It seems difficult to read "Design", eg, as a rustic ode on insect life. It is much, _much_ closer to Auden's "Musee de Beaux Arts" or Berryman's "Winter Landscape" (both about paintings, a different conceit than the nature vignette, but similarly _not the point_), or, much later, Heaney's "Bog Man" (that title's wrong, but I can't come up with it at the moment).
5799. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:30 AM PT
Calgal, I don't write to invite your comments and my post was intended for JamesWright. And I really don't care how or if you think.
5800. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:35 AM PT
Cmboyce, I welcome examples of Frost's profundity and modernism.
5801. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 7:38 AM PT
Message #5800
You've just been reading several, posted here. And of course there are the books.
5802. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 7:39 AM PT
"I don't write to invite your comments and my post was intended for JamesWright. "
Well, yes. I could see that. I mean, it was addressed to him, and it certainly dealt with a subject that only he has been discussing lately.
5803. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:41 AM PT
Well, this has certainly proved to be a heady exchange, hasn't it?
5804. 109109 - June 7, 1999 - 7:42 AM PT
Loar
It was, for some time. Could still be.
5805. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:43 AM PT
#5803 is intended for cmboyce.
5806. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 7:43 AM PT
Another poem I use early in introduction of poetry discussions in class to aid students in seeing what there is to see and not dismissing a poem without looking carefully at all that is there (but without getting into concepts that are too heavy or intimidating at first), is this Richard Wilbur riddle, which I believe is original with him, though he's translated some interesting older ones, too.
Where far in forest I am laid
In a place ringed round by stones,
Look for no melancholy shade
And have no thoughts of buried bones;
For I am bodiless and bright
And fill this glade with sudden glow.
The leaves are washed in underlight,
Shade lies upon the boughs like snow.
What am I?
Forgive me if you all are familiar with this already. I usually have a student or two in each class who gets it after much thought, though once they see it they wonder how they could have missed it.
Another great Wilbur poem for its clear and beautiful imagery is "Part of a Letter."
5807. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 7:45 AM PT
CM,
"I think most 20th-century poets and writers on poetry regard Frost as the first of the important American figures on this side of the great divide that seems to separate 19th and 20th century attitudes."
It is interesting to consider the difference between how Frost is perceived critically and culturally.
5808. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 7:45 AM PT
And such a provocative remark as Message #5794 would invite comment in any forum, no matter whom it was addressed to.
5809. 109109 - June 7, 1999 - 7:47 AM PT
Loare
Perhaps you could get Wright's or boyce's personal email, and these misunderstandings could be cleared up with greater ease.
5810. marjoribanks - June 7, 1999 - 7:47 AM PT
A campfire?
BTW, I don't want to enter too much into this discussion, but I have very much the same reaction to Frost as Loar does. I was force-fed many of his works in high-school and could not ever see the great merit in his poetry. I especially like Loar's phrase "as dated as Victorian throws" for that captures my sentiments exactly.
5811. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 7:50 AM PT
ScottLoar: For a set of more elaborate and considered opinions than are ever likely to be posted here, at least by me, try this, a wonderful book of three essays that are each good reading on poetry, quite aside from considerations about Frost.
5812. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:51 AM PT
109109, I don't correspond by e-mail and don't invite e-mail, and what you term "misunderstandings" are profound differences of opinion, which contrary opinion is not mine alone (look to Marjoribank's post), and it is clearly uncertain that JamesWright would disagree with me.
5813. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 7:53 AM PT
Yea Marj! Gee, that was fast.
5814. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 7:54 AM PT
Cmboyce, I'll do that.
5815. 109109 - June 7, 1999 - 7:56 AM PT
Loar
Just a suggestion, but thanks for your response.
5816. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 7:58 AM PT
I think the reason many people think of Frost as empty of any greater meaning is because that is how his work was presented to grade-school kids over the years.
His work is so instantly readable in the plain, or literal, sense that people assume that's all there is--and that's all that was taught.
5817. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 8:04 AM PT
I agree. It's hard to undo the damage a poor teacher inflicts on students--everything from encouraging math phobia to a dislike of reading.
That's not to say that a dislike of Frost is due to a bad English teacher. It's certainly understandable that some, especially those who do not have a rural background (I don't know that that's the case with Marj and Scott, I'm just making a generalization), simply dislike his poetry for various reasons. But there is definitely more to it than just pretty images, and any studier of Frost knows that very well. It reminds me of a friend who is an English professor who had students read Kilmer's "Trees" and Frost's "Birches" and found the students much preferred "Trees," which exasperated him no end.
5818. marjoribanks - June 7, 1999 - 8:04 AM PT
Arky, that was child's play. Got any more?
I find the presumptiveness of post # 5816 quite staggering, but then again I should not be moved to surprise any more, I guess.
Boyce, that actually _does_ look like an excellent book. I will check it out, pronto.
5819. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 8:08 AM PT
I think my thought doesn't really address Cal's remarks (though I still agree), because introducing Frost in grade school isn't a bad thing, as his work can be appreciated on that level, but it's up to high school teachers to help students see other dimensions later.
5820. bubbaette - June 7, 1999 - 8:09 AM PT
Arky
To each his own. Though I understand he was a great writer, I hate Hemmingway -- not because of any teacher's influence, but because he (Hemmingway) strikes me as a macho asshole.
5821. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 8:11 AM PT
Marj,
I don't have any more handy. I knew that one by memory. I'll try to look up more later if I can remember what book they were in. He had several really neat ones.
5822. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 8:13 AM PT
"To each his own. Though I understand he was a great writer, I hate Hemmingway -- not because of any teacher's influence, but because he (Hemmingway) strikes me as a macho asshole."
Exactly. I don't like him either, but my dad and husband both do.
5823. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 8:14 AM PT
Christ. Take the digs to the playpen. Much of the rest of the Fray doesn't understand or appreciate all the hostility.
I said, "His work is so instantly readable in the plain, or literal, sense that people assume that's all there is--and that's all that was taught."
I was *not* referring to you, MB, although the first paragraph about it being presented to gradeschool kids was something that arose because of your post.
I was referring to the fact that Frost's work was used to introduce children to poetry for many years because he was perceived as a nice, safe, bland poet. Consequently, that's also how his work was taught in schools.
I do not think that everyone must regard him as a genius. However, to dismiss him as simplistic is unusually out of synch with the general critical perception of him.
5824. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 8:18 AM PT
I don't know that the Victorian is to be dismissed so lightly anyway. A throw is a slight thing, if by that you mean a mere comfortable reassurance, light and only effective in a cossetted existence anyway, but the Tennyson of "In Memorium" and most all of Browning and a fair deal of Swinburne and bits and pieces of various others, is certainly no such thing (& that's about as much excellence within an era's work as can be claimed of any era).
If this Tennysonian item of Frost's be a Victorian throw, then such comforts were more capacious than I had imagined:
The Silken Tent
She is as in a field a silken tent
At midday when a sunny summer breeze
Has dried the dew and all its ropes relent,
So that in guys it gently sways at ease,
And its supporting central cedar pole,
That is its pinnacle to heavenward
And signifies the sureness of the soul,
Seems to owe naught to any single cord,
But strictly held by none, is loosely bound
By countless silken ties of love and thought
To everything on earth the compass round,
And only by one's going slightly taut
In the capriciousness of summer air
Is of the slightest bondage made aware.
5825. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 8:20 AM PT
Arky,
Oh, I agree. There is nothing *wrong* with teaching Frost to younger kids and focusing only on the pretty images. But I somehow feel that, were it not for the popular perception that this was all there was to his work, it wouldn't be taught to kids at all.
So he is thought of as bland and safe and "easy".
5826. marjoribanks - June 7, 1999 - 8:35 AM PT
Boyce,
Thanks for the poem. It's quite beautiful, but it doesn't hit me where my critical heart lies. I find it effete, almost minceur, in the final analysis. But that is just me. As a matter of fact, I'm not that comfortable talking about poetry, since I read outside my favorites quite rarely and am much more comfortable discussing prose. However, for perspective, I may reproduce a Philip Larkin poem here towards the end of the day. That is the stuff I dig most.
5827. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 8:44 AM PT
Boyce,
Well, like Ace said earlier--if it ain't about suicide, it's about sex.
5828. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 8:45 AM PT
That's fine, Marj. I cited "Silken Tent" precisely because it is rather precious and thus Victorian in character, with a solid core of concern for the nature of consciousness (to be quite anachronistic in terminology). And it is quite Frostian in both its formal rigor (another Victorian trait, one that I may value more than most here) and in hiding its cards until the last line, a regular trick. Anyway, no matter, chacun a son gout.
Who are your favorites, in addition (I presume) to Larkin (one of mine as well)?
I gotta get out of here. In addition to the demands of the realer world, I'm having such a terrible time with the technical fuckups here, that I can't stand it any more. But I'll be back later, looking for Larkin. And/or anything else.
5829. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 8:49 AM PT
Message #5827
CalGal,
right. The old standbys of poetry: love, death, sex, spring, and drink. Here's to 'em all, individually and in the aggregate.
And now I'm really out of here.
5830. ScottLoar - June 7, 1999 - 9:53 AM PT
3/4 Hour of Calgal's Wisdom, Collected From But a Single Thread, Vol. I
June 7, 7:29 a.m. (unsolicited)
"It's certainly good of you to come into here and tell us how it really is. How else would we know what to think?"
June 7, 8:14 a.m.
"Christ. Take the digs to the playpen. Much of the rest of the Fray doesn't understand or appreciate all the hostility."
More introspection to follow by she who obviously does understand and does appreciate.
5831. stamper - June 7, 1999 - 10:03 AM PT
would someone please explain the phrase "teaching poetry to kids" to me?
you are right about hemmingway. he is a macho asshole. i never knew him personally, but if i did i don't think i would like him. his demise was dramatic. just like some of his work. yes, he is an asshole. some of his writing is good, though.
CalGal
everyone of the Fray understands all the hostility
5832. stamper - June 7, 1999 - 10:05 AM PT
sometimes i'm an asshole, but not a *macho* asshole. i'm a caring, sensitive, fun loveing, simple fellow
5833. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 10:15 AM PT
Loar,
The playpen was invented for that sort of stuff. Take it there.
5834. RyckNelson - June 7, 1999 - 4:29 PM PT
Here is some Phillip Larkin
Thanks for the lead MarjoriBanks, I'm always looking for more. As with all of us there's just not enough time to read it all. One particular set of verse get's a "Yup Yyyuup!" quip from me.
"We think each one will heave to and unload
All good into our lives, all we are owed
For waiting so devoutly and so long.
But we are wrong: "
5835. RyckNelson - June 7, 1999 - 4:48 PM PT
Marj,
As a guess, is Aubade one of your favorites?
For me discoveries, such as the Frost most of you are discussing cap the day quite nicely.
Here's the Langston Hughes I was not sure about posting wrt copyright.
LANGSTON HUGHES WROTE THIS!!!!!!
"I, TOO
I, too, sing America.
I am the darker brother.
They send me to eat in the kitchen
When company comes,
But I laugh,
And eat well,
And grow strong.
Tomorrow,
I'll be at the table
When company comes
Nobody'll dare
Say to me,
"Eat in the kitchen,"
Then.
Besides,
They'll see how beautiful I am
And be ashamed --
I, too, am America."
5836. RyckNelson - June 7, 1999 - 4:50 PM PT
Get is gets nothing when the get's to the get, is.
5837. RyckNelson - June 7, 1999 - 5:21 PM PT
James have you any more Wright? This link has only three. Its connecting me to Minneapolis. That's kinda cool, I'm wishing you are you. It would just be, well, cool. You know I have so many to read I had to come across Wright at some point. Who else am I to discover, you would know that lists depth. The discovery, the words, I need to know so many more words. It's cool though, "I'm finally digging the words". When I write, think or say that, I get a little giddy butterfly in the stomach feeling. That I think is good excitement.
cmboyce,
You've brought the scholarly touch to Poetry. Nice reading.
Arky,
I owe you a thanks for mentioning my moderate improvement. My humility is still quite intact and Scott may have tweaked me the other day. I don't think he abhores my stuff but, he knows my beginnings and doesn't need to have me messing around.
I'm here for thoughtful learning. If as in some small ways before, I again share with others, those will be marked as joyous victories.
Dig that new word "effete"; worn and sterile. Along with prolixity I'm just booming along new vocab.
5838. RyckNelson - June 7, 1999 - 5:28 PM PT
Oh, shit! anonymity!
Ummmm...I've f'ed up.
5839. arkymalarky - June 7, 1999 - 5:42 PM PT
You're a joy to read in both poetry and prose, and your posts make me smile, Ryck.
And I've got to say how much I've enjoyed Cmboyce's posts on Frost, but also elsewhere on the Fray. Your perception, clarity, and careful expression of your views is very nice to read.
There's been a lot of good Fray reading of late, come to think of it.
5840. AceofSpades - June 7, 1999 - 9:45 PM PT
A while ago Blake's "Tyger, Tyger" was misquoted (IIRC). This is the actual poem (IIRC):
Tyger, Tyger! Burning bright!
in the forest of the night
what immortal hand or eye
could frame thy fearful symmetry?
I'm not sure about the exclamation point after "Burning Bright." But the question is "What immortal hand or eye COULD frame thy fearful symmetry?" not "framed thy fearful symmetry?"
I'm not big on interpretation, but it seems to me Blake is calling himself an "immortal" in asking his rhetorical question, since he has nicely "framed" (meaning "captured") the tiger's fearful symmetry in verse. The "fearful symmetry," in case it isn't obvious, is a reference to the Tiger's stripes.
To all:
Frost is a modernist poet, the same as William Carlos Williams. Modernist poets wrote about concrete images, actual things.
A great example from WCW:
The Great Figure
Among the rain
and lights
I saw the figure 5
in gold
on a red
firetruck
moving
tense
unheeded
to gong clangs
siren howls
and wheels rumbling
through the dark city.
That's a paradigmatic Modernist poem. Frost's poetry is similarly rooted in the concrete, though, of course, he believed that the rhyme was important in poetry ("Writing a poem without a rhyme is like playing tennis without a net").
That traditionalist approach to rhyme, however, does not segregate Frost from the other Modernists.
I am assuming that nobody is arguing the absurd case that Frost isn't a modernist simply because many of his poems concerned pastoral/rural imagery.
5841. cmboyce - June 7, 1999 - 10:12 PM PT
Message #5839
Thanks, Arkymalarky. I'm the more complemented to hear you, in particular, say such a thing, for I admire your posts as well, especially in Education, but also elsewhere.
5842. CalGal - June 7, 1999 - 10:30 PM PT
I realize this is a change, but I'm wondering if anyone here has dipped into Helen Vendler's "The Art of Shakespeare's Sonnets".
5843. stamper - June 8, 1999 - 12:00 AM PT
CalGal
i've always had a problem with one of Shapespeare's sonnets which i can not recall except from memory. perhaps you could help me with it.
"the expense of spirit in a waste of shame
is lust in action"
no matter how i parse that i cannot understand it.
i love Shakesperes sonnets, at least the ones i remember.
my favorite, and again from memory, so forgive mistakes, if you can find it in your heart to do so.
"That time of year thou mayest in me behold,,
When yellow leaves or none do shake againts the cold
Bare ruined choirs where late the sweeet birds sang.
In me thou seeest the twilight of each day,
That after sunset fadeth in the west,
Black night, that seals up all in rest,
In me thou seest the glowing of such fire,
That on the ashes on his youth doth lie,
Glowing embers.
consumed by that which it was nourished by.
This thou persievest, which makes thy love more strong,
to love that well, which thou must leave ere long."
please accept my apology for the butchering of a beautiful sonnet. but it is all i can remember at this time. i did my best, i can do no more
5844. pellenilsson - June 8, 1999 - 4:13 AM PT
It's too cosy around here and too little original effort. Time for another gloom-and-doom Odin poem.
I am Odin.
I went north where the sky meets the land.
I saw many things.
I saw the lemmings march east to their death.
I saw the wolverine slay the reindeer, and the ravens
gorge on its innards.
Red were their feathers
when they too to the sky;
beaks heavy with offal.
I saw the eagles silhouetted against the northern lights.
The meaning of all this I do not know.
But it is the work of The One.
Long ago we did battle and I lost.
But the wheels of time are always turning.
His time is coming to an end; my time begins.
Hugin and Mumin will tell me when.
I shall unleash the mighty Thor to destroy his minions.
I, Odin, the one-eyed, who sacrificed myself to myself,
will weave my spells around him and send him to his
doom.
I am Odin. Beware.
5845. ScottLoar - June 8, 1999 - 5:15 AM PT
Dear Ace, yes, Frost is a "modernist" in that he is writing of "concrete images, actual things", but that does not release his works of my impression that they are as dated as Victorian throws.
5846. RyckNelson - June 8, 1999 - 5:37 AM PT
Stamper,
"the expense of spirit in a waste of shame
is lust in action"
The verse appears at face value to be instruction for/about interrelations. I
Perhaps it pertains to laying another person low, while achieving new heights for oneself.
Perhaps it isn't so, and pertains to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", regardless of perceptions, regardless of personal gain, as long as malice isn't involved.
Perhaps it's even uglier and pertains to rape.
CIAO.
5847. arkymalarky - June 8, 1999 - 6:11 AM PT
Ace,
And the last stanza of Tyger is the same as the first except for the change of "could" to "dare" which adds to the importance of accurately quoting the first verse.
Thanks for the WCW.
My last remark on Frost: Some of his poems I like really well, some I love, and some I don't care for at all. He's not my favorite poet. I certainly understand how some find him dated or simply don't enjoy his poetry or his style (I myself sometimes find it too forced). My defense of him is against suggestions that he is merely superficial.
Love the Odin, Pelle, and I've been thoroughly enjoying your work with Hashke on translating the Norse poetry.
5848. CalGal - June 8, 1999 - 6:23 AM PT
"My defense of him is against suggestions that he is merely superficial. "
Agreed.
5849. ScottLoar - June 8, 1999 - 7:26 AM PT
Arkymalarky, I agree that Frost's poetry is not superficial, yet neither is the intended or inferred meaning profound. And as to beauty in simplicity look to D.H. Lawrence, "The Snake" being a good example.
5850. AceofSpades - June 8, 1999 - 7:28 AM PT
There's nothing wrong with being "superficial" in poetry. In fact, it's a positive virute.
Re-read Williams' "The Great Figure" above. There is no deeper meaning to it. It's just about a firetruck screaming through the night. That's it. That's all.
But it's an excellent poem.
5851. CalGal - June 8, 1999 - 7:35 AM PT
Ace,
Sigh.
Perhaps I read Arky wrong, if so I'd have to retract my agreement. The complaint about Frost seemed to be that his work was not profound, that interpretations other than the literal were not to be inferred.
Personally, I am unclear as to why dwelling on suicide is to be considered profound, so perhaps this is a definitional issue. I don't think Frost is a profound poet; I do think that his poems were bleak little gems that are misread if one only sees pastoral images.
It is rare that good poetry only has the "superficial" meaning; by which I suppose you mean that it can only be interpreted in the literal sense.
5852. CalGal - June 8, 1999 - 7:41 AM PT
And if you think that WCW poem is *only* about the firetruck, you're wrong. My god, if you can't tell that it's on its way to rescue the speaker who is committing suicide, then you have no artistic sensibilities at all.
*******
If it were *just* about a firetruck, I'm thinking the poem wouldn't be titled "The Great Figure". And "unheeded", despite all the noise it's making? I know nothing about WCW, but without anything more, I'd guess that at least a subtext is the anonymity and uncaring quality of city life. Yet the firetruck is a "great figure".
So right there I see some sort of contradiction that means it's not *just* about a firetruck.
5853. AceofSpades - June 8, 1999 - 7:43 AM PT
Well, obviously the firetruck is a metaphor for any sort of emergency rescue vehicle.
5854. arkymalarky - June 8, 1999 - 7:49 AM PT
Scott,
Message #5849
I agree, and The Snake is a good example, a poem which I like very well. WRT "...yet neither is the intended or inferred meaning profound," that would depend on the poem and one's determination of what constitutes profundity. T.S. Eliot he ain't, I would agree, but he does employ devices that go significantly beyond the literal in his poetry.
I do think if you give him another chance and maybe look at that book of essays Cmboyce linked (I haven't read the book; I'm looking forward to looking at it myself) you may not come to like him, but may see more of why others find him a great poet.