302. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:40 PM PT
jones
Don't forget Bartók!
303. philistine - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:43 PM PT
Yes.
Bela is swella!
And Dmitry is alreety!
And Sergei is...
Okay, okay. I'll shut up and keep it in the poetry thread.
304. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:46 PM PT
Well, do one of those, anyway.
305. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:46 PM PT
Oh how I kid my erstwhile mentor!
306. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:53 PM PT
jonesat:
Zappa's orchestral stuff was *heavily* influenced (some might call it a rip-off) of Varese, and to a lesser degree, Boulez.
307. MrSocko - Dec. 15, 1998 - 2:55 PM PT
Wot about the atonal Anton Vayburn's (sp?) influence on Zappa?
308. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:01 PM PT
Webern. I didn't hear much of him in the one Zappa recording I've heard (can't remember the name, but he somehow cajoled Boulez into conducting it...not the smartest move, as Boulez the conductor has a knack for turning anything into a muddy, churning miasma, something Boulez the composer thankfully kept to a minimum), but I'm sure he'd marked Zappa's consciousness at some point, as well.
309. jonesatlaw - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:07 PM PT
Wow, I'm rushing off to the library for some CD's on your kind suggestions. I'll start buying when I've caught up. Thanks again.
310. Philistine - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:25 PM PT
Hey, no prob Jones. The tough part is getting us to shut up once we've gotten started.
Go ahead, ask tP about Don Pullen. I dare ya.
311. trouserpilot - Dec. 15, 1998 - 3:43 PM PT
Sigh.
312. Msivorytower - Dec. 16, 1998 - 7:38 AM PT
After last night I keep hearing the song.....
"Looveboat, it's the LOVEBOAT!
Taking you on a cruise!
The Loveboat, you don't need any shoes!!!!!
Oh the LOOOOOVEEEBOOOAAAT!!!
313. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 8:55 AM PT
From David Stove's "The Plato Cult and Other Philosophical Follies":
"Innumerable people naively and indiscriminately turn to philosophy in their search for truth. I've long thought that such writings were like ancient traps, waiting to ensnare the latest generations of gullibles. It's patently obvious once one's read a bit that hardly any two philosophers' positions can be harmonised: the vast majority of them must be in error. A classic example of Sturgeon's Law: '90 percent of everything is crap.' But it takes quite a bit of reading to notice this, and innumerable people fall victim to belief along the way. But there's a sanctimony about it all, especially the 'great thinkers'.
From an Enlightenment or Positivist point of view, which is Hume's point of view, and mine, there is simply no avoiding the conclusion that the human race is mad. There are scarcely any human beings who do not have some lunatic beliefs or other to which they attach great importance. People are mostly sane enough, of course, in the affairs of common life: the getting of food, shelter, and so on. But the moment they attempt any depth or generality of thought, they go mad almost infallibly. The vast majority adopt the local religious madness, as naturally as they adopt the local dress. But the more powerful minds will, equally infallibly, fall into the worship of some intelligent and dangerous lunatic, such as Plato, or Augustine, or Comte, or Hegel, or Marx.
But no! Let us, for pity's sake, as well as for horror's sake, draw a veil... But let us never forget, either, as all conventional history of philosophy conspires to make us forget, what the 'great thinkers' really are: proper objects, indeed, of pity, but even more, of horror."
314. ScottLoar - Dec. 16, 1998 - 9:00 AM PT
What the hell is that all supposed to mean? Some gross attempt at profundity? E.g. "(b)ut the moment (people) attempt any depth or generality of thought they go mad almost infallibly."
315. ScottLoar - Dec. 16, 1998 - 9:02 AM PT
Sorry, dropped a comma in the quotation but I don't see how it makes one whit of difference or why the comma was necessary in the first place, so I consider my error an improvement over the original.
316. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 9:03 AM PT
It means that the vast majority of history's "great thinkers" whom the general educated public regard with respect, sometimes veneration, were in reality lunatics or idiots or both.
317. lowlife - Dec. 16, 1998 - 9:56 AM PT
pseudo--like it or not, i'm an excellent writer. btw, my ideas about supply-side economics are correct.
318. ScottLoar - Dec. 16, 1998 - 9:57 AM PT
Pseuoderasmus, you are insufferable most times, and your Message #316 proves yet again we have not one smidgen of tacit understanding between us.
319. ScottLoar - Dec. 16, 1998 - 9:59 AM PT
I yield to "lowlife"; let him carry on.
320. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:00 AM PT
Yes, it's obvious there is no tacit understanding between us, for I don't understand the point of your Message #318. What is exactly your objection to the remarks I have posted?
321. ScottLoar - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:12 AM PT
No objection, only I comment the message is not profound, quite ordinary in the main but some parts quite stupid in fine, such as the example I quoted. Thanks for your "most excellent" summary in Message #316, yet despite the purple prose the original is still understandable.
322. jonesatlaw - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:16 AM PT
Lowlife- are you "an excellent driver, an excellent driver" who loves Judge Wapner and drives a '48 Buick Roadmaster straight eight?
323. trouserpilot - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:26 AM PT
jones
You're soooo close.
324. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:35 AM PT
Loar: Do you put every post to the test of profundity? Few in the Fray would ever qualify. I think, rather, the salient characteristic of Message #313 is "deliberately provocative". Moreover, the attitude expressed in the passage is not all that common; commoner is the reverence accorded to philosophers. By the way, what part did you find "quite stupid"?
325. Seguine - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:48 AM PT
Only .78% of Americans revere philosophers. Everyone else reveres popular music.
326. FreeToChoose - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:51 AM PT
Kurt
AAC has the potential of revolutionizing the distribution of music, essentially eliminating the CD industry and converting to an Internet distribution system. Conceivably, this could be a great boon to less mainstream artists, as the cost structure associated with the existing distribution network is eliminated. Is this fanciful thinking? Will it fail because those in power won't let it happen, or are the economics wrong?
327. lowlife - Dec. 16, 1998 - 10:55 AM PT
pseudo--i'm erudite, eloquent, and elegant.
328. Seguine - Dec. 16, 1998 - 11:06 AM PT
Low,
You are either PE in Lewis Fein drag, or you're a disturbed and slightly disturbing little man.
329. CoralReef - Dec. 16, 1998 - 11:31 AM PT
More Mencken:
"Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all the others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add he usually proves that he is one himself." (From "Minority Report", 1956)
330. toonces - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:17 PM PT
Re: Message #313
This makes sense to me, and suggests I should first try to determine the meanings and purposes of my life for myself, regardless of whether my conclusions contradict those of some highly respected "great thinkers" I know nothing about. "The Plato Cult and Other Philosophical Follies": sounds like a book I would enjoy reading.
331. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:22 PM PT
Philosophers generally don't write about the "meanings and purposes of life". That's for 12-step programmes, Ginzu knives salesman, "Kahlil Gibran" and gurus named Ramanujan.
332. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:22 PM PT
Ginsu.
333. lowlife - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:23 PM PT
Pseudo--indulge in the holiday spirit: praise my prose!
334. toonces - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:31 PM PT
Re: Message #331
What do philosophers generally write about then? I thought they were in the business of defining things, in other words, finding the meanings of things.
335. marjoribanks - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:40 PM PT
I know of a genius mathematician and a genius poet/translator/scholar named Ramanujan (both dead). No gurus.
336. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:46 PM PT
Message #334: Epistemology, logic, metaphysics, ethics, politics, aesthetics, etc. "Meaning of life" is undergraduate dorm room garbage.
Message #335: The mathematician is Srinivasa Ramanujan, a pioneer of number theory in the early 20th century -- a mere clerk without formal education brought to Cambridge by G. H. Hardy.
337. marjoribanks - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:52 PM PT
Pseuder,
I assume you have come across 'The Man Who Knew Infinity' by Robert Kanigel. It's one of the better biographies of science/math types around. If you haven't read it yet, check it out.
BTW, the other famous Ramanujan was quite a guy as well. His translations and compilations are particularly good. I gave Mondaugen a copy of his versions of some thousand year old Tamil epics 'Poems of Love and War.'
He died young too, a few years ago, and it is quite a loss.
338. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:58 PM PT
Message #318
Yes, I've read the Kanigel. I agree it's good, but on what basis do you say that it's one of the better math/science biographies? Have you read any other biography of science/math "types"?
339. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 16, 1998 - 12:59 PM PT
FTC:
re Message #326
This is actually something I don't know too much about at this point, though my initial impression is that it will be only a marginal success at best, mostly due to the nefarious 'powers that be' you mention. Music distribution is already easy to procure for those on the margins of the industry, and self manufacturing/distribution methods are becoming more and more available and affordable all the time. I think music being made available exclusively online for purchase and download will work for the rock industry, but off the top of my head tend to think that what's left of the classical audience, for example, won't bite. Besides, for record enthusiasts, the tactile bang of holding a slab of vinyl in one's hand is half the pleasure...downloading, then having the option to transfer the data to a separately purchased CD-burner seems like a bit of an insult.
340. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:02 PM PT
I haven't had the chance to read marjoribanks' gift in its entirety, but I have hopped here and there through it at various points. From what I've seen so far, I will vouch for its quality.
341. marjoribanks - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:07 PM PT
Pseuder,
Er, well you have me there. I've only read a handful of such books, on Feynman, Einstein, Oppenheimer, and a few other 20th century luminaries. They were all (except for the Feynman one and I think that was an autobiography) pretty much unmemorable.
Mond,
Wow, that's a really ringing endorsement of tenth century Tamil poetry!
342. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:13 PM PT
marj:
Well, you and pseud are both aware of my thoughts on poetry.
343. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:16 PM PT
Actually, I think pseud might quite like some of what's in here:
O yes, we've seen
your girl friend,
haven't we?
She gives her bud of a breast
with no milk yet
to a doll with a mouth
that cannot drink,
playing at giving suck,
doesn't she?
344. marjoribanks - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:19 PM PT
Mondaugen,
It was the austerity of the translation that I thought would appeal to you. Plus, I figured there'd be few things less likely for me to hand over than translations of ancient Tamil poetry.
Surprise element and all that.
345. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:23 PM PT
marj:
Absolutely, and you have my thanks. Actually, given my thoughts and general distaste for poetry, the fact that I like this particular book must mean it's got its considerable rewards.
346. marjoribanks - Dec. 16, 1998 - 1:39 PM PT
Mond,
Cool, I hope it continues to hold your interest.
347. philistine - Dec. 17, 1998 - 11:33 AM PT
Hey, trouser! A band called the Sand Rubies is gonna be playing in Austin this weekend (after I leave town, alas) - while skimming the article about the upcoming show, I began to suspect you have a connection to these guys.
Izzat so?
348. trouserpilot - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:31 PM PT
phil
The lead singer is my younger brother.
349. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 17, 1998 - 4:52 PM PT
note to wabbit:
Received my catalogue for the San Diego Niki de Saint Phalle show in the mail today...thanks for the tip you gave me a few weeks ago.
350. phillipdavid - Dec. 17, 1998 - 5:31 PM PT
I want one or two good history novels (or history books that read well like a novel) to read over the Christmas break. Can anybody suggest something to me? Thanks.
351. ScottLoar - Dec. 17, 1998 - 6:01 PM PT
Had you read "The Killing Angels"? That novel about the battle of Gettysburg, later made into a made-for-tv-movie by Turner Broadcasting? The book is simply excellent. Also read "Death of the Fox" about the life, trials and death of Sir Walter Raleigh. All titles doubtlessly available through Amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com from whom you can also track the authors.
352. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 6:08 PM PT
PD: Gates of Fire is a big new historical novel. I haven't gotten around to reading it yet. It's about the battle of Thermopylae.
I think you'd get a lot out of In Light of India (Paz) and American Scripture (Maeir) but they don't read like novels, alas, merely like well written history books, or in the case of Paz, part memoir and analysis too.
On a purely pulp-fun level Sharpe's Tiger was a pretty entertaining historical novel. Cornwell's history is supposedly reliable, and seemed so. It's set against the war between the Tippoo Sultan of Mysore in southern India and the British Army around 1800.
353. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 6:42 PM PT
Re historical novels or history books which read like fiction
1) The Betrothed, by Alessandro Manzoni -- by far, IMO, the best historical novel around. It's about two village lovers in the 17th century who are separated in flight from a tyrant, and the perilous adventures each faces on their path to reunion. It's all there -- violent riots, plagues, wars, famines, inquistorial persecutions, along with a blazing array of sad or amusing or shocking characters. One of them is the Nun of Monza, whose pre-nunnery life is quite disturbing.
2) The Assassins, by Bernard Lewis
This is the tale of a radical Islamic sect in the 12th century, reputedly the first to make assassination a systematic political weapon. A fringe offshoot of the Ismaili Sh'ia, they sought the overthow of Sunni hegemony in Islam. Their method, in the words of the author, was to "terrorise and demoralise their opponents by a series of dramatic murders". To add colour, the group were run by a myterious figure lodged in the moutains of Syria, known only as "the old man of the moutains". Apparently, a few Crusaders got bumped as well.
354. chloel - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:05 PM PT
_Course of Honor_, by Lindsay Davis; follows the life of a woman born a palace slave, who ends up the consort - for lack of a better word - of Emperor Vespasian. It's not a bodice-ripper; most of the action is driven by palace politics and various stern Roman consciences. It is sentimental in a stern-Roman-conscience way.
Davis' mysteries set in the same era are entertaining too.
I found _Embarassment of Riches_, Simon Schama, very easy to read. It's about the sudden wealth of the Netherlands in the 16th & 17th centuries and has several fine engravings of the "Hat of Liberty", which is undignified and floppy. There are also astounding diets of sailors and risqué pictures involving frogs.
355. Philistine - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:24 PM PT
Trou -
Figured it had to be something like that. The article was pretty gushing - be honest now, are they any good?
356. phillipdavid - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:30 PM PT
Thanks for the suggestions! I have ordered several of the above recommendations, and I can't wait to dig in.
A quick search at Amazon confirms what pseudoerasmus says about _The Betrothed_; it has glowing reviews. Unfortunately, _The Assassins_ is on back order. _Gates of Fire_ does look very good too, but I will wait for the paperback version to come out. I could not come up with a listing for _The Killing Angels_ at Amazon, but _Death of a Fox_ looks very promising, as does Sharpe's Tiger -- in part because it is part of a series, and once I start something good I like to keep with it for a while.
I appreciate the help. Thanks again.
357. CoralReef - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:44 PM PT
It's the Killer Angels. I haven't read it, but it's very acclaimed. ScottLoar misremembered the title a bit, is all, but in a search that can keep one from finding it.
358. JefferySteele - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:55 PM PT
PD --
I believe Scott Loar meant the _The Killer Angels_.
359. JefferySteele - Dec. 17, 1998 - 7:57 PM PT
An 11 minute crosspost with CoralReef shows how tempermental my computer is being tonite.
360. phillipdavid - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:13 PM PT
I found _The Killer Angels_ at Amazon.
Interesting mix of customer reviews on that page. The teenage schoolboys who were assigned the book hated it, a woman said she would recommend it to her "male" friends, and a student from the UK apparently didn't have a clue and could care less. I wonder what motivated these teenage boys to bother writing a review?
The top customer review attributed the 1975 Pulitzer to the novel, but I am under the impression he can't read very well.
361. JefferySteele - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:22 PM PT
"I wonder what motivated these teenage boys to bother writing a review?"
They were probably assigned the book in their English classes. I know that always killed my interest in reading a particular book -- when someone said that I had to.
362. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:24 PM PT
PD:
Please keep in mind that you're reading the reader's comments at Amazon-dot-com. Tantamount to reading the "Cheers and Jeers" section of TV Guide and expecting insight.
363. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:30 PM PT
Actually, I've read some quite perceptive & insightful reviews at Amazon.com.
364. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:35 PM PT
Copied directly from the publisher's press-release one-sheet, I'll venture.
365. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:38 PM PT
(actually, that's a bit of knee-jerk hyperbole, but I've read several Amazon staffer's reviews which have utilized that tactic, and few, if any, reviews from the public containing much worth)
366. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:39 PM PT
Regarding Doug Henwood's execrable tract, "Wall Street", one reader wrote:
This book should be required reading for all MBA students and undergrad econ majors, so that they can test their understanding of economics and finance by rebutting the majority of Henwood's assertions in this book that are egregiously false. This was a delightful book to read, if only because it tests the mind. Henwood makes some extremely important points and asks some fine questions. For example, he is absolutely correct to note that the stock market provides little new capital formation. He is also, I believe, correct in his portrayal of investment bankers as unctuous and predatory. The qualifiers "some" or "many" would be useful in the text but restraint is hardly a quality that Henwood possesses. One comes away with the overwhelming conclusion that beyond the Herculean effort it must have took for a layman to partially digest the arcana of modern financial academic research, Henwood just has a Manhattan-size axe to grind with New York fi! nanciers. This book is his whetstone. Henwood has little to no understanding of basic economic concepts. He fails to distinguish between a financial decision (yes, online day-trading for the average Joe is a losing proposition because of transaction costs and the relative efficiency of markets) and an economic decision (I may decide to day-trade online anyway because I enjoy the adrenaline rush; I attach a high marginal utility to this activity). He fails to understand that the value of the stock market is in its marginal re-allocation of investor capital as an information signal about the performance of corporate management and growth. In fact, he fails to understand the concept that only that which is marginal is relevant to any kind of economic decision making. At least Henwood is honest in the introduction when he muses that his angry obsession with Wall Street is probably a sign that he is in need of psycho
367. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:41 PM PT
in need of psychotherapy. But then he finishes the book with raving about ! how anyone involved in finance must be anal-retentive, sado! -masochistic, and just downright evil. And, by the way, psychotherapy is in the same league as these illnesses, "the disease of which it is the cure". ???? What is one to make of this horrendous substantial inconsistency? For those who think solely in political terms and who are economically illiterate, Henwood's tome will leave them looking for still more "capitalist" ogres under the bed. This is a shame, since he touches on the need (a vital one, in my opinion) to recouple economics and political philosophy into political economy and then fails to examine this rigorously. Likewise, Henwood delves into the merits of Keynesian economics but his conclusions are often ill-informed. For those of us who know better, this book is like a New York Times crossword puzzle. Immensely entertaining and testing but substantially deviod of meaning. Henwood has half-learned most everything he writes about here. Unfortunately many laymen won't be able to disti! nguish the few piercing insights in this book from the river of drivel from which they must be plucked. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, indeed."
That's much better than any "real" review I've read of the book, whether critical or praising.
368. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:42 PM PT
Okay, must've missed that one.
369. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:42 PM PT
I do think Amazon.com should offer links to reviews from magazines & newspapers and not just limit them to reader reviews. (I don't think Kirkus Reviews quite cut it.)
370. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:43 PM PT
I've corresponded with Doug Henwood of the Left Business Observer. Tis true, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
371. resonance - Dec. 17, 1998 - 8:51 PM PT
Message #353, part 2:
You're talking about the Hashishim, led by Hassan Ibn-Sabbah (I think that's it), right? The ones with the temple at Alamout who kept their killers in Sardaukar-like plush digs and lots of hash, convincing them with some allegedly fairly sophisticated mind control tricks that they were seeing heaven on earth?
The hashishim are really interesting; unfortunately, they're also nauseatingly common in modern-day conspiracy theories. I guess they're somewhat like Muslim Templars in that regard. If it's a good work and free of the esoteric Illuminati nonsense then I'll have to try it out, because I'm not really happy with anything I've read on them thus far.
372. resonance - Dec. 17, 1998 - 10:10 PM PT
It's not hard to understand why the hashishim are common to conspiracy theory, though. Any story surrounding guys who spend all day eating delicacies, having sex with nubile houris, and smoking high-grade hash -- until the time comes where they are to kill someone and give up their life if necessary for the godlike Hassan -- well, you can see how quickly that would arrest the attention of the alt.conspiracy.black.helicopters crowd.
373. resonance - Dec. 17, 1998 - 11:24 PM PT
Shaara's book is good. I wouldn't bother picking up the sequel, though. Incidentally, as such things go, I have seen the movie _Gettysburg_ many many times. I was under the impression that it was released in the theaters before it ever got on television. And although the movie has to suffer through Martin Sheen's opaque-yet-mugging RE Lee, and it is a little melodramatic (soundtrack, soundtrack, soundtrack), I really thoroughly enjoy it as a whole.
374. ScottLoar - Dec. 18, 1998 - 1:38 AM PT
Yes, I misremembered the title "The Killer Angels" (I'm poor on names and faces). Other books I've enjoyed:
"The Siege of Krishnapur" loosely based on the siege of Lucknow and "The Singapore Grip" about life and love (is there any other subject?) on the eve of the Japanese invasion of the island, historical fictions both by my favourite English author J.G. Farrell;
"The Conquest of Mexico", related by Bernal Diaz del Castillo when aged 80, a veteran of the conquest of the Aztec and the storming of their island city. A great, first-person account, a primary source, this conquistador lived the history.
375. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 18, 1998 - 3:17 AM PT
resonance (Message #371)
The word is "hashishi" or "hashshash" or "hasishiyyin" or "hashshashin", all meaning simply "assassins". Your spelling is the old Orientalist one, as is your "Alamout" (a French spelling).
"If it's a good work and free of the esoteric Illuminati nonsense then I'll have to try it out, because I'm not really happy with anything I've read on them thus far."
You have obviously know not a thing about Bernard Lewis. The book is based on Islamic sources -- Arabic and Persian.
376. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 18, 1998 - 3:18 AM PT
"Conquest of Mexico" by Bernal Díaz del Castillo is a good read, but I wouldn't set your history by it. For that, refer to the latest in historical scholarship (and well written to boot), "Conquest", by Hugh Thomas.
377. resonance - Dec. 18, 1998 - 4:20 AM PT
""If it's a good work and free of the esoteric Illuminati nonsense then I'll have to try it out,
because I'm not really happy with anything I've
read on them thus far."
You have obviously know not a thing about Bernard Lewis. The book is based on Islamic sources -- Arabic and Persian."
No, I don't know anything about Bernard Lewis. You obviously don't know anything about illuminism, if you could say the above, because much of it is derived from Arabic mysticism.
378. trouserpilot - Dec. 18, 1998 - 7:11 AM PT
phil
Uh-oh. Here's where I have to admit that I'm not too familiar with his music. First, I don't usually hang out at the places his band(s) would play (esp. in Tucson). Second, it's that sort of jangly NeilYoungish quasi-roots used-to-be-the-Southwest's-answer-to-REM bag that I'm not too interested in. Third, I don't own any of their recent CDs -- I haven't received any for free and I'll be damned if I pay money for 'em. (Hahaha, sort of.) Anyway, he's only been at it for 10 years or so; I'll get to it when I get a chance, OK?
379. philistine - Dec. 18, 1998 - 7:20 AM PT
Trou,
Sounds fair - I must have misremembered the article, I was sure it said the band was Phoenician.
Res,
Feeling snippy today? Pseuder didn't say anything about Illuminism at all (see Jen, I'm an equal opportunity nitpicker.)
380. resonance - Dec. 18, 1998 - 8:43 AM PT
Austin:
If you'll look at what was posted, you'll see that PE was in fact talking about Illuminism. I said that I'd like the book if it wasn't all Illuminist stuff, to which he retorted that I obviously didn't know anything about the author, and that all the work was extracted from Arabic and Persian sources. There really couldn't be any other thing to which he was retorting, because I didn't really mention anything except for Illuminism.
381. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 18, 1998 - 8:49 AM PT
How can Bernard Lewis be an Illuminist? Anybody with a modicum of knowledge of Middle Eastern history and scholarship would know that. Hence my remark about Resonance.
382. philistine - Dec. 18, 1998 - 8:51 AM PT
Fight! Fight! Fight!
383. resonance - Dec. 18, 1998 - 9:12 AM PT
Oh, I didn't think *he* would be an illuminist per se -- I doubt you'd talk so highly of him if he was. It's just that every time you read about the hashishim (or the hashishi, if you prefer) there's always these dark threads leading off into Conspiracy-land. And it's sort of understandable, because the hashishi were all about influencing things behind the scenes and there was a good bit of esoteric mysticism in their makeup. One wouldn't have to be an illuminist in order to talk about those sorts of things.
Judging from your vehemence I'm going to accept that there's little to none of that in the work, and therefore it's going onto my short list of things to read.
384. pseudoerasmus - Dec. 18, 1998 - 9:16 AM PT
It's a work of historical scholarship, by one of the finest Middle East historians alive.
385. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 21, 1998 - 6:49 PM PT
today's musical acquisition was a thoughtful Xmas gift from the missus (keepers, both) which arrived in the mail..."75 Jahre Donnaueschinger Musiktage", a sprawling 12-CD set w/ book documenting the near legendary Donnaueschinger Music Festival from its inception in 1921 through 1996 (smaller recordings have been issued for the years since) on the venerable Col Legno label, which is rapidly becoming the most essential label for contemporary classical music, since Wergo has decided there's more money in 'world' music, Deutsche Grammophone has denied any involvement with the avant-garde, and Nonesuch has decided that Philip Glass is the only composer worth a shit. The Donnaueschinger Festival has been dedicated to staging premiers of pieces of all sorts (orchestral, chamber, solo, radio-play, works for tape) from youngish or little-known composers (Bela Bartok's submission to the 1924 festival was refused on the grounds that he was 'too popular') with an emphasis on the 'daring', experimental or otherwise 'new' compositional styles, and this collection features selections mostly from those whose careers have amassed some degree of notoreity...it reads like a veritable who's who of 20thC composition (and would well serve listeners new to the whole contemporary enchilada): Paul Hindemith, Igor Stravinsky (those who don't normally think of Stravinsky and ilk as particularly 'out' or challenging need only remember the riots that accompanied his "Rite of Spring"), Ernst Krenek, Hans Haass, Arnold Schonberg, Alban Berg, Roman Haubenstock-Ramati (a frenetic piece for player-piano that predates Conlon Nancarrow by about 30 years), John Cage (w/ David Tudor, natch, complete with the sounds of the audience jeering and booing), Alois Haba, Dieter Schnebel, Paul-Heinz Dittrich, Frederich Cerha, Kurt Weill, Luciano Berio, Rolf Lieberman, Cristobal Halffter, Henri Pousseur, Mauricio Kagel (an incredibly odd piece for two 'one-man orchestra' street performers th
386. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 21, 1998 - 6:50 PM PT
(an incredibly odd piece for two 'one-man orchestra' street performers that unfortunately can't be seen here, but still needs to be heard to be believed), Rolf Reihm, Brian Ferneyhough, Mathias Spahlinger, Hans Zender, Hanspetter Kyburz, Pierre Boulez, Iannis Xenakis, Jorg Herchert, Vinko Globokar, Gyorgi Ligeti, Pierre Schaeffer, Pierre Henry, Luigi Nono, Michael Levinas, Anton Webern, Younghi Pagh-Paan, Karl Hartmann, Krzysztof Penderecki, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Bernd Zimmerman, Heinz Hollinger, Helmut Lachenmann, Andreas Raseghi, Olivier Messiaen, Elliot Carter, Wolfgang Rihm, and Johannes Kalitzke are all represented, amazingly enough, by pieces that are currently unavailable on any other recording. The quality of these recordings is spotty, ranging from the crystalline studio work on the Nono selections, to the excellent live recordings of much of the later chamber pieces, to the somewhat muddy mid-60s orchestral recordings, to the abyssmal murk on others of the same era, to the original 20s radio broadcast of the Weill piece in all its crinkly, analog-tube glory. Performances, however, are excellent throughout, and the thing overall is pretty much total fucking grail anyhow. I know I bandy the word "essential" around an awful lot when it comes to this kind of stuff, but in this particular case, it actually applies in spades.
387. jordanvb1224 - Dec. 21, 1998 - 7:11 PM PT
I received three books that I am very eager to read as a combination birthday/Christmas present:
T. R.: THE LAST ROMANTIC by H. W. Brands
THE ROOSEVELT WOMEN by Betty Boyd Caroli
THE LION'S PRIDE: THEODORE ROOSEVELT AND HIS FAMILY IN PEACE AND WAR by Edward J. Renehan, jr.
I hope to finish reading them by the end of my vacation.
388. trouserpilot - Dec. 22, 1998 - 7:22 AM PT
Kurt
Given the Donnaueschinger Festival's mission (daring and experimental stuff by none-too-popular composers), I'd be interested in hearing about the pieces they accepted over the years that musical history has not been particularly kind to; in other words, pieces by the composers who didn't end up making your "who's who" list. Obviously the music wouldn't have been showcased on your 12-CD set, but there must be documentation somewhere of those pieces by certain composers that would elicit "what? by whom??" Any idea?
389. KurtMondaugen - Dec. 22, 1998 - 12:00 PM PT
tp:
I'll send you some more tapes.
390. wexxford1 - Dec. 23, 1998 - 2:23 AM PT
Kurt baby. What say you to corporate control of rock and pop?The corporate controllers decreed this week that hundreds of little rockers get cut from brand name and corporate payrolls.If you are a Geffen corporate employee ,you get no plum pud this year.Its back to behind-the-counter work at K-Mart.Dontcha like the way corporate controllers cut the budget here and fatten it up there arts-wise?
Did the Iralian controllers do likewise in the age of Mussolini? Do the BBC controllers do the same thing in Britain and Ireland ?Ah, corporate control of the arts.What a bore to see the arts index move around like the names in the S&P 500.
391. labarjare - Dec. 23, 1998 - 8:32 PM PT
I some time ago railed, in my fashion, about the awful crap put on the stage at the Met the past few (decades it seems) under the tutelage of Franco Zeffirelli. His new Carmen was the last straw for us a couple of years ago and we for the second time didn't renew subscriptions. Must admit when it was announced that he was going to do a new La Traviata to a morbid curiosity. I mean, his old Traviata was already over the top. What more could he do. Then, there were rumors that he was actually going to go minimalist!!!! Fat chance.
I haven't seen the production but I have seen pictures of one of the dancing scenes. Incredible. And, some quotes from a very entertaining review of the Met's current booboos in a recent WSJournal:
Talking about the rumor that he was going to go minimalist, Heidi Waleson said: Like all such intimations of dramatic change, it was, of course, a joke, and the overstuffed confection that jammed the stage sadly bore little resemblance to Verdi's most intimate opera. Instead , we got an explosion of Empire style at its most vulgar."
There is much more. Her last sentences before turning to the new production of Lucia di Lammermoor were: "Perhaps it's time for the Met to give Mr. Zeffirelli his ornately detailed gold watch. Even realism needs a point of view."
392. labarjare - Dec. 23, 1998 - 8:36 PM PT
She didn't like the Lammermoor either. "A few dancing cows or decorative plates might have done wonders for [the new production of Lammermoor which was] as bare as Mr. Zeffirelli's was overstuffed, and equally pointless." It goes downhill from there.
Considering the prices the Met now commands, I guess I'll just close by saying "That's Show Biz!"
393. Philistine - Dec. 23, 1998 - 11:35 PM PT
Hey, nice to see you around again, Lab. Drop by more often, won't you?
Sorry I don't have anything else to contribute right now, except that I've got a nasty case of family-induced artistic block. I'll make sure to get over it, though.
394. MrSocko - Dec. 24, 1998 - 5:46 AM PT
Three hundred and ninety-three posts, and nobody's mentioned the new Mercury Rev album! Oh well. My best-of list for the year is coming up real soon.
395. phillipdavid - Dec. 26, 1998 - 10:04 AM PT
CoralReef,
Thanks for suggesting Sharpe's Tiger. It was a very enjoyable read; just what I was in the mood for. It read like the average adventure story (full of vim and vinegar), and as I finished it I didn't even suppose it was anything but pure fiction. So I was quite surprised to read in the afterword how much of the story was actually based on real historical events and persons.
396. CoralReef - Dec. 28, 1998 - 4:43 PM PT
You're welcome, PD, it's a fun book -- well crafted entertainment isn't as common as it should be -- and coincidentally he also wrote a series on the U.S. Civil War.
397. labarjare - Dec. 29, 1998 - 6:24 AM PT
It is always nice to see others agreeing with you, albeit both more succinctly and eloquently. To wit, there is a terrific article in The Arts section of today's NY Times entitled "Of Overstuffed Operas and the Met as Victorian Drawing Room." Since I still have not mastered the art of linking (don't laugh, please), please bear with me for what will probably be a few posts. (This thread doesn't have a logjam anyway.)
The article starts out by saying that you never can really tell about opera audiences since they tend to be fickle and uses as an example the fact that Robert Wilson, who was booed "vehemently" last year after the first performance of his very modernistically staged Lohengrin received cheers and bravos when he "bravely took the stage again" this Fall. (Mondaugen - take note.)
It then proceeds to commenting that "the lusty boos that erupted [following the opening recently of the new production of Lucia di Lammermoor] were surprising and significant." Why? Because the production was neither overdone ala Zeffirelli (more on him anon) nor was it avant garde. "It was simply bad, appallingly bad, a jumble of clunky, pointlessly ornate sets and unbecoming costumes, dimly lighted and further blurred by annoying scrims. The cast...seemed to have been given scant direction, for everyone performed with barely concealed panic. The production was all the more distresing coming just two weeks after the grotesquely overdone new production [by Zeffirelli of La Traviata].
"HOw can the Met go so wrong?" Answers from the article in the next posts.
398. Adrianne - Dec. 29, 1998 - 6:29 AM PT
LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBB!!!!!!!!!!
399. Adrianne - Dec. 29, 1998 - 6:30 AM PT
oops, sorry.
Hi Lab, long time no see!
400. labarjare - Dec. 29, 1998 - 6:35 AM PT
The answer given by the Met is that the opulence and grandness, if you will, is what much of its audience demands and continues to appreciate. The Met in turn needs such responses for its "bread and butter" operas (like Traviata, Carmen, etc.) to allow it to venture forth into more adventuresome works and stagings (like Wozzeck, which indeed is returning this year.)
On to Zeffirelli. The article says: "For years, Mr. Zeffirelli has had the market for the traditional cornered. Many critics have been stupefied by his extravagent productions of, say, [Tosca and Turadot]. "But these Zeffirelli extravaganzas have been luring audiences to the house for years. Mr. Zeffirelli's record in recent years is abysmal. Yet the Met can't seem to stop pouring millions down 'the Zeffirelli sinkhole' as the critic Mauela Hoelterhoff put it in her new book ,'Cinderella & Company', an incisive and hilariously honest examination of the Cecilia Bartoli phenomenon and the backstage opera world."
I can't resist this quote about Carmen, since it says it all. "Mr. Zeffirelli's new production of [Carmen] two seasons ago was a clueless, chaotic disaster, with a menagerie of horses, donkeys and doggies mixed into the crowd scenes. 'There were so many overdressed Spaniards, lurching cripples, cavorting being around the plaza,'Ms. Hoelterhoff writes, 'Maria Callas herself could have come and gone unnoticed."