302. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 12:58 AM PT
Ack. "microcosmic"
303. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 1:42 AM PT
"No." Well...yes. I have observed my sample, and thought some about it. You can trust me. Subtle clues, but definitely observable.
"we find any assertion to the contrary to be....amusing." But so do a lot of the Hoosiers I know. I am not talking about the people who say, "Oh yeah? Well Indianapolis is hot! The new mall, that new Thai restaurant..." or the "Oh yeah? well the Indy 500 is the greatest spectacle in racing!" types. Those people are obviously pretenders, and they do exist--like the pro-Maine types. I mean the "I Was Born in a Small Town" types. They're not impressed. Not like Chicagoans, who claim not to be impressed but really are...they do actually pity you folks. Their paradise is Candide's, tough to find in Metro California.
And, among those who are smug about being a Hoosier, at least there is no contradiction--they know they are closed minded. Californians I think really believe they aren't.
304. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 1:48 AM PT
Does your Stanford meritocracy hold just for Bay area institutions, or all institutions? Because I'll put a Caltech degree against a Stanford degree any day. And what about Berkeley? It's every bit the school Stanford is.
305. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 1:54 AM PT
Slack,
"Well...yes. I have observed my sample, and thought some about it. You can trust me. Subtle clues, but definitely observable."
You live outside of True California, so I defer to your expertise.
"Californians I think really believe they aren't."
Well, I certainly do my best to dispel that notion. And you've just seen Patsy and Cig post--tongue in cheek, but with a teeny tiny core of truth. Most Californians I know openly admit to their geocentric notions of superiority. But I don't see what this how this conflicts with our genuinely loose and accepting natures.
We can be open-minded about all sorts of new ideas and lifestyles and still know beyond any possibility of doubt that the Midwest is a government plot to convince us we don't live next to Chicago.
306. PincherMartin - April 18, 1999 - 1:56 AM PT
SlackJaw --
Berkley's reputation has taken a dramatic drop since its funding was cut a few years back in California's budget crisis. In some lists now, you won't even find the undergraduate university ranked in the top twenty.
I don't know CalTech's reputation very well except that the things I hear about seem to suggest that it is superb in the hard fields (does CalTech even have humanities?), but perhaps not as well connected to the centers of commerce as Stanford.
307. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:04 AM PT
Slack,
"Does your Stanford meritocracy hold just for Bay area institutions, or all institutions? "
Oh, I'm not saying that Stanford is so much better that this division is deserved. I'm just saying that it's the closest thing we have to a class division. Sure, there are the wealthy, and the near wealthy, and the unbelievably rich--but merit and success are the only requirements for entry.
"And what about Berkeley? It's every bit the school Stanford is."
Again, it has nothing to do with quality. I was just commenting on your point about intellectual sophistication and education--you were saying that Californians are snobs about this sort of thing, considering folks from other areas their inferiors. I am not conscious of this--in fact, in our area we are genuinely welcoming of people from other states and enjoy taking them to atomic sushi bars and watching them experience their first earthquake.
Also, it occurs to me that while the technology industry is *most* of this area, it isn't *all* of this area, so substitute "technology industry in NoCal" for "NoCal". It probably holds close to true for the rest of the professions (lawyers, shrinks, and whatever else it is we do around here), but I can't swear to it.
And even the Stanford class division isn't impermeable. Merit trumps all. But it is the closest thing I've seen to that ineffable feeling of aristocracy that you find in other communities among the wealthy, the old families, the bluebloods.
308. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:07 AM PT
Caltech (small "t") has humanities only for undergraduates, and I don't think they can major only in the humanities (though a double major is definitely allowed). Probably true about commerce...but of course Stanford only stands out in the state because it is way the hell out in California. Compare it to Harvard, say. The comparison is even more striking in terms of government & policy connections.
"the Midwest is a government plot to convince us we don't live next to Chicago." I could see the Plains serving that role...but the Midwest? Chicago is in the Midwest. I don't get it.
309. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:12 AM PT
Slack,
As far as I'm concerned, the MidWest starts somewhere east of Modesto and includes Montana, Nebraska, all of the "I" states and all the "W" states that aren't Washington.
And don't tell me that Chicago is in an "I" state because I am convinced that Chicago is in Ohio. Why else would they both end in "O"?
310. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:15 AM PT
"Again, it has nothing to do with quality." Aha. Yes, I see.
Oh, I have always found Californians to be welcoming, and willing to inculcate me into their folkways (all the while assuming I am glad to get rid of my Midwestern yoke). They'll gladly take me to the sushi bar (well, not me, but...), but substitute a simpler word for "reticent" or something like that. (Which reminds me...use of "reticent" when "hesitant" is meant is something I have noticed a lot of down here. Bugs me.)
311. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:17 AM PT
"Why else would they both end in "O"?" Yeah, that makes sense! You're probably right.
So you don't recognize the Plains, eh? Well, I haven't been to Modesto, but the Midwest should definitely include Sacramento. That city has a very Midwestern feel. Like the Wisconsin Dells meets Cincinatti.
312. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:18 AM PT
Now don't get me wrong, I love Chicago...probably my favorite US city. But Jacob Weisberg's comments about its self image in the architecture column were right on.
313. cartman69 - April 18, 1999 - 2:22 AM PT
Of all the Midwest states (however many there are), Indiana has got to be the best. Think of the famous folks who've come from IN -- Kurt Vonnegut, Dave Letterman, Axl Rose, Michael Jackson, John Mellencamp, um...well, Vonnegut and Letterman are pretty damned okey-doke in my book anyway.
As for the Indy 500 being the greatest racing event in the world, to a non-racing fan, that's roughly equivalent to praising someone as the "greatest ice hockey player in all of San Dimas". I've tried, but I still can't understand why people will pay to watch other people drive really fast in a circle.
314. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:24 AM PT
In fact, the only places in California that have anything to be arrogant about are LA, the Bay, Napa Valley, Yosemite, and the northernmost towns of population 1500 where everyone grows pot. Maybe San Diego.
And I mean some parts of LA county. None of this Orange County crap. No offense to anyone who lives there, but what a dreadful place. I've already mentioned Riverside...though I know a guy from there who always tells people he's from LA.
315. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:25 AM PT
Slack,
Your impression matches my reality all the way through the word substitution. Not only have I never seen that, I have never heard anyone complain about it before.
It is a heathen sin, I tell you. Come up here to the True State and nirvana will follow.
Incidentally, one quirk about Bay Area people (and probably Sacramentans as well) is that we can talk about restaurants for hours. We always spend 15-20 minutes with our ritual weather worries and then get to the good stuff. Put five or six of us together and it becomes pretty funny. Especially when we notice it and laugh about it--and go right back to analyzing which dim sum house in the financial district has the best szu mei. (sp)
This is one area where we unquestionably condescend, since Indianians and other people who live in the mythical Midwest are all dog-eating barbarians. So they have much to learn.
316. PincherMartin - April 18, 1999 - 2:25 AM PT
"So you don't recognize the Plains, eh? Well, I haven't been to Modesto, but the Midwest should definitely include Sacramento. That city has a very Midwestern feel. Like the Wisconsin Dells meets Cincinatti."
Actually Cartman69 and I come from a neck of the woods (north of Sacramento) which probably feel not that much different from small towns in Indiana. Certainly, they have much more in common with them than they do with the Bay Area or Los Angeles.
317. cartman69 - April 18, 1999 - 2:26 AM PT
Slackjaw:
"...use of 'reticent' when 'hesitant' is meant is something I have noticed a lot of down here. Bugs me." You hit the nail on the head with that one. Many urban Californians (especially in LA) are guilty of throwing around 50-cent words, when they're hardly capable of wielding the 10-cent ones! In a way, though, that's part of the fun.
I hate myself for saying this, but I actually miss LA. Sometimes.
318. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:27 AM PT
Kurt Vonnegut: Indianapolis is 1 day of motor racing and 364 days of bowling.
I'm not a fan of racing myself, but the Indy 500 is pretty damn amazing.
You left baseball sensation Ron Kittle off your list of notable Hoosiers.
319. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:27 AM PT
"So you don't recognize the Plains, eh? "
Up to now, I have been speaking tongue in cheek. But hear me when I tell you this: No. I don't recognize the Plains. I thought they *were* the Midwest and you seem to be saying otherwise. The Plains must be where they had the dustbowl.
"Midwest should definitely include Sacramento. "
No, Sacramento is definitely California. But it serves as shameful proof that even California can have a Buffalo.
320. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:29 AM PT
PM: Close to Roseville, perchance?
And Cartman is from Pasadena!
321. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:29 AM PT
Slack,
"the only places in California that have anything to be arrogant about are LA, the Bay, Napa Valley, Yosemite, and the northernmost towns of population 1500 where everyone grows pot. "
Strike LA and that *is* all there is to California. Who the hell needs anything else?
322. cartman69 - April 18, 1999 - 2:31 AM PT
Pincher:
While I have lived most of my life up here in the North Country, I was born in Pasadena, lived in various parts of LA until I was 8 or 9, then spent every summer there until 16 or so. So I knew what I was missing when we moved up here. That's the scary part -- we moved TO Orland.
When I first moved here, it was about 5 or 6 years behind LA, culturally speaking. Now it's about a year behind.
323. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:32 AM PT
Oh CalGal, I imgagine you know your eats, but you are wrong about the hotdog thing. Hoosiers eat them, but the best hotdogs in the world are Chicago style. They are truly fantastic. Chicagoans fit 7 servings of vegetables on one tubesteak.
Never been to Buffalo...only Sac once. I implore you all, make a point of visiting the Wisconsin Dells once, and tell me if it isn't Sacramento plus a chicken who can add.
324. cartman69 - April 18, 1999 - 2:34 AM PT
Slackjaw:
Good memory (that I'm from Pasadena). Incidentally, I find that Pasadena has produced a decent list of notable eccentrics as well: Bobby Fischer, Eddie Van Halen (grew up there, four of my cousins went to school with him), Julia Child, Sally Field,...I know I'm forgetting a few. It's late.
325. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:35 AM PT
Slack,
No, I meant dog. Woof. Barbarians.
In fact, California does not do hotdogs, barbecue, or bagels very well at all. Also cheesecake is a weak spot, I've been told. But we are getting better on barbecue and bagels, which are the only two we care about.
And you missed my joke about Sacramento being our Buffalo. Silly lad.
326. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:36 AM PT
But I did go to Wisconsin once. Assuming that it is the "W" state that has Milwaukee and that Milwaukee is a city near Chicago. I took a train there once while in Chicago.
327. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:37 AM PT
I like to think I have seen a good bit of California since I've been here, including Roseville. I don't feel that I have any regional attachments--but LA definitely belongs on the list. It is a focal point of a lot of this state, and seems to me to be the home to a lot of the attitude (good and bad), starting with that whole water thing.
Oh yeah, add Lake Tahoe.
328. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 2:38 AM PT
Slack,
LA has no redeeming values, unless you count a beach where you can wear a bathing suit.
Okay. One redeeming value.
329. PincherMartin - April 18, 1999 - 2:39 AM PT
SlackJaw --
"PM: Close to Roseville, perchance?"
No, actually we moved close to Roseville (first Fair Oaks, then Granite Bay) when we left Gridley, and it a was a definite move up.
330. PincherMartin - April 18, 1999 - 2:40 AM PT
BTW, why would you go to Roseville?
331. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:41 AM PT
Dog? As in canine? No, that is not part of any custom I know of. What are you talking about?
Barbeque in CA sucks. At least around here, and I don't imagine the area that gave us Starship would do what it takes to be really good at barbeque either. Deep dish pizza (Chicago style) sucks.
I once had an epic barbeque meal in Kentucky, and afterwards had a full tour of the facilities. THAT was a mistake.
332. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:45 AM PT
My wife's parents inherited a condo (of sorts) in Roseville, so they were there last summer. We visited them.
People in the Bay aren't allowed to wear swimsuits?
Oh, I get it--it's so FREAKING COLD. LA's water history is the quintessence of CA attitude. It belongs on the list for that reason alone.
Still don't get the buffalo thing--do they eat buffalo there? Are you making fun of the girth of the typical Sacramentan? Don't get it.
333. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:47 AM PT
Deep dish pizza (Chicago style) sucks in California, that is.
That and bbq are the kinds of things you need to roll up your sleeves and work with. Doesn't seem to be the California eating philosophy.
334. cartman69 - April 18, 1999 - 2:56 AM PT
Slackjaw:
WRT Sacto, I think Cal means that it's the type of city that even Northern Californians tend to disown, the way many upstate New Yorkers tend to be somewhat embarrassed about Buffalo. The way Oxnard or Reseda is looked upon by Southlanders.
335. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 2:56 AM PT
It's true, though, that outside of *some* college towns and Chicago, restaurants in the Midwest leave a lot to be desired. I laughed when I saw that you can buy a Zagat guide for a bunch of cities like LA, the Bay, Chicago, NY, and for OHIO! The whole confounded state has to be considered before you can fill up one Zagat.
336. cartman69 - April 18, 1999 - 3:02 AM PT
I remember this one Stuckey's, outside of North Platte, Nebraska. They had this chicken-fried steak there, boy I tell you...right up there with Granny's possum pie!
337. resonance - April 18, 1999 - 3:57 AM PT
Re: Ohio
It's true. There's some really fantastic places to eat, but I can count the number of them I've been to and not get into double digits. About the best thing you can say about Ohio cuisine is that it isn't Pennsylvanian -- the only good food I ever had in Pennsylvania was in Philly, and it was overrated there too -- everyone goes on about Bookbinders but really, it's nothing special.
338. joezan - April 18, 1999 - 4:43 AM PT
PM - Message #316:
"Actually Cartman69 and I come from a neck of the woods (north of Sacramento) which probably feel not that much different from small towns in Indiana. Certainly, they have much more in common with them than they do with the Bay Area or Los Angeles."
Long ago, I was accidentally in Bakersfield for a few days. As I was but a teen and not possessed of much knowledge of regional American cultures outside my native suburban N.Y., I was in awe that such "cowboy" towns still existed.
It was many years later that I realized that, except for the Stetsons every single male wore, Bakersfield IS a small town in Indiana.
339. OhioSTOPAS - April 18, 1999 - 6:59 AM PT
msg 335 is dissin' Ohio!? Hmmm . . . .
msg 324: Cartman, Bobby Fischer is from the New York area (Brooklyn, I think), even though he lived in Pasadena in the 70's and/or 80's. You Pasadenans don't have to include him among "eccentrics produced by Pasadena"!
(Speaking of Fischer, is he living in Yugoslavia? I think he stayed there after the rematch with Spassky.)
340. incognito - April 18, 1999 - 10:48 AM PT
RyckNelson
Thanks for the stories about your cars! We have something in common since we both lost autos in snow storms. I actually liked my Honda CVCC Civic at first. A sporty little thing in the mid-70s. But it slowly began to fall apart and in a terrible snow storm with temps around -40 F it threw a rod and destroyed the engine. I was stuck on the interstate at night about a mile from any civilization and like a stupid college student I only had a t-shirt on under my coat! I'll never forget that night. I had to run through snow drifts to a motel. Miserable night. I saved the radio and tires and got 35 bucks from the wrecker for it. The tires got stolen later!
I also had a Chevy Chevette which worked fine but, well, it was a Chevette. Enough said. My Olds Cutlass Supreme was a nice auto then I went through a series of "fleet" autos like Taurus and some Pontiacs and a Caravel! I'm not even sure I spelled the last one right.
The only auto I regret not buying was a souped-up VW beetle that was black and looked way cool then. I let my dad talk me out of it because he thought it was too unsafe! Man I wanted that auto!
341. joezan - April 18, 1999 - 7:45 PM PT
Ohio - Message #339:
I'm not sure exactly where in N.Y. Fischer is from. But in '73 or '74 my cousins and I were in The Village looking for Bob Dylan's apartment, when we saw Fischer walking out of an apartment house on Bleeker St. My cousin Jeff boldly walked up to him to ask for his autograph, and he took off, running. We checked the plaques on the mail slots in the vestibule and, sure enough, one of them said "Fischer".
342. seguine - April 18, 1999 - 8:40 PM PT
"I ... love California, but for all the Californians. 78 million or so people who consider themselves the most enlightened, open minded people on the planet--but most who say anything about it assume I am glad to be out of Indiana, and that it must be a pretty lousy place to live. And it's not just the Palisadeans either--I get this from people from Ontario, Sacramento and San Dimas (home of Bill and Ted)!! I have found that cultural snobbery in this state runs very deep. I have a feeling that most people from CA who only know I'm from IN, but not what I do, presume that I lack their education or intellectual sophistication."
It's really, really bad in Northern California. Everyone in the San Francisco Bay Area thinks she lives in some version of New York with prettier scenery. It's bizarre, especially since most NoCalians hail from the Midwest and probably have never been near Manhattan. (Converts are always the most ardent believers.)
California gave us the Grateful Dead. New York gave us the Velvet Underground. Is there any qestion at all about which were the more intelligent junkies? No.
343. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 8:49 PM PT
Oh, we don't care if you're a native or not once you get here.
(Says the native Californian, kindly, who spent several days in da Big Apple, as the yokels call it, and thought it was overrated except the helicopter ride she took from JFK to LaGuardia through NEWARK one time when she *had* to get to Pittsburgh PA, god help her, and saw all the sights from the air in one of the most beautiful hours she ever spent--and who thinks junkies of both the GD and VU variety are assholes of the first order.)
And we're far friendlier to newcomers than Manhattanites.
344. seguine - April 18, 1999 - 9:32 PM PT
"And we're far friendlier to newcomers than Manhattanites."
It's a facade. Like "friendliness" in Texas, it has nothing to do with friendship and everything to do with superficial... I don't know how else to say this... butt sniffing. Like Texans, Californians want to know first and foremost that you're One of The Saved. In Texas you should ideally have found Jesus and a big car. In CA you must believe in "progressive" politics and its adjuncts, homeopathy and astrology. And you must believe precisely in the way that fundies believe in God: everything must be taken on faith, no serious questions allowed. Once you have accomplished this level of belief--once you have accepted the bounty of perfection--you may be considered for residency in Paradise; until then, you should perhaps consider moving back to the bad old racist, classist, sexist rest of the United States.
The friendliest place I've lived in, by far, is Philadelphia, which has such a permanent inferiority complex it can never become snobbish.
(NB to Resonance: nobody I ever knew ate at Bookbinders. You should have gone to the Italian Market, or Reading Terminal Market, or South Street Souvlaki, or Vietnam Restaurant, or La Terrasse, or Pat's King of Steaks, or Dahlak Ethiopian...)
345. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 9:51 PM PT
"In CA you must believe in "progressive" politics and its adjuncts, homeopathy and astrology. And you must believe precisely in the way that fundies believe in God: everything must be taken on faith, no serious questions allowed. "
No, no, no. Only parts of the heathen south, pockets of SF and, of course, the Last Gasp of the Left, Berkeley. And homeopathy is laughed at--in fact, acupuncture is considered avant garde for much of the state. And if acupuncture is progressive, then insurance companies are ahead of the curve for the first time in their existence.
As for politics, there is a trend lately towards libertarianism that I've noted--particularly in startup personnel. But apart from, again, the City and Berkeley, most of the NoCal is centrist. As has been noted before, the only difference between a conservative and a communist in this part of the woods is that the communist believes that capital gains should be treated like regular income.
Hell, we even have Republican congressmen!
The area has been consumed by technology companies and the true believers who people them--equity, low taxes and good food are our gods. Evangelical Christians feel like they've landed in Gomorrah, but they don't feel mistreated--provided they can write code or sell software. And we only work really hard when we feel like it.
The previous occupants of our fair area are now huddled in enclaves spotted throughout the North. But I hear that even Chico is funding startups these days.
Someone hasn't been out here since the mid-eighties, apparently. And even then that was the last gasp of the frootloops.
346. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 9:56 PM PT
I wonder how much can be inferred about one's politics just by party id, without considering where they are from. Outside of the old Solid South, where the label per se meant something, politicians can moderate their stances to fit prevailing local tides.
So while the parts of the Bay may have Republicans in Congress, they may be substantially more liberal than the rest of the country's Republican's.
A more reliable barometer is how SFBA people vote in presidential elections, when everyone faces the same choice.
347. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 10:01 PM PT
well, acupuncture may be avant garde and homeopathic treatment ridiculed, but included in my extended family are four groups of Californians: in Burlingame, Riverside, West LA, and San Dimas/Glendora. 3 of the 4 have several acupuncture devotees, and the ones from the Bay (Burlingame) and San Dimas each have homeopathy adherents.
Don't know how representative that is.
348. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 10:13 PM PT
Slack,
"So while the parts of the Bay may have Republicans in Congress, they may be substantially more liberal than the rest of the country's Republican's. "
Well, yes. If you note, I said the area is largely centrist and that there is relatively little variance between the left and the right.
But the fact that both libertarians and evangelicals co-exist peacefully with those on both the left and the right is indication that there is little demand for lockstep on any issue in the workplace, at any rate--and in this part of the world, The WorkPlace is Life.
Look, don't get me wrong--it is an odd place out here. But the stereotype Seguine mocks is woefully out of date.
Put another way--I am generally considered psychobabbly New Age in the Fray. Fine. I'm always amazed, but that's because I know my mother and you all don't.
But I am also considered a bit psychobabbly New Age by most people out here--one of a known, but rare, breed. When I get tired of my friends' teasing, I introduce them to my mother, at which point they turn to me and say, "Wow. How did you first find the path of reality?" Which they, at least, acknowledge I have a working acquaintance with.
Of course, teasing or not, they always call me when they need the name of a good acupuncturist, shrink, or Chinese herbalist. Opportunists.
349. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 10:18 PM PT
Slackjaw,
I did note the heathen south pockets of oddballs. And I'm not saying that there is no homeopathy around here. We have everything, of course. That is what makes us California.
But Seguine is asserting that homeopathy and astrology is de rigeur, which it is not. Truly, the culture has undergone a sea change in the past 20 years.
And I'm just goofing, since we started this last night. I really don't mind if people stereotype us. I just hate it when they get the wrong one, since the real stereotype offers far greater opportunities for parody.
350. Slackjaw - April 18, 1999 - 10:51 PM PT
oh, don't get me wrong--I was just saying. Actually, both Mrs. Slack and I have noted that the new agey stuff is not as prevalent around here as we had suspected; we both surmised it must be more common up north. Well, you live there and I don't.
re. politics--but there could be very little variance between parties even if the average (mean) is well to the left. But, if the libertarians are active, that's a fairly strong signal because they are I think a bit more purebred than the rest of us. In fact, their guru and collective hero lives around Santa Clara.
"I know my mother and you all don't." Oh, but that's where you're wrong! Yes, MomGal and I go way back.
351. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 10:55 PM PT
"Yes, MomGal and I go way back."
Ah--a previous life?
352. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 11:10 PM PT
Slack,
"but there could be very little variance between parties even if the average (mean) is well to the left. "
Yes, but remember--this is startup heaven. Money money money. Not much point in getting rich if we're going to give it all back to the workers.
The reason I think libertarianism is growing in the area is because the area is as close to a pure meritocracy as you get in the States, and that attitude tends to encourage libertarians--while I am only speaking anecdotally, most of the ones I'm acquainted with are under the age of 30. The fact that high-tech is a meritocracy is said with neither approval or condemnation, merely an assertion that most of us here buy off on--and hey! The New Republic agrees.
(This is an article primarily on the low incidence of blacks and Hispanics in the high tech industry, something that we have all been commenting on for at least 10 years. It is also an extremely accurate assessment of the whys and wherefores, and worth reading. But the specific quote I'm referring to is, "But it's also true that most of these enterprises, often founded in the last few decades by iconoclastic baby boomers, have no history of the kind of discrimination that is usually thought to justify affirm ative action. More important still, the high-tech industry is one of the world's purest meritocracies.")
But when meritocracy is the norm, it leaves very little room for the true left. Or even the traditional Democratic left. I am insulated, of course, but when I first came to the Fray I was utterly flabbergasted at the traditional Dem party loyalty on display here. 'Taint no such thing out here; I thought that was true everywhere.
353. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 11:14 PM PT
"It is also an extremely accurate assessment of the whys and wherefores"
I should have said that it reflects what all of us have been saying for years. It is unusual to see anything in the major magazines that accurately represents the issues out here, which is what I focused on. I have no idea if the statistics are accurate or not.
354. CalGal - April 18, 1999 - 11:56 PM PT
Some other random facts that suggest the area is largely centrist to ruthlessly capitalistic:
--Rent control only occurs in SF. In fact, rents have exploded so much around here that a new law was introduced in some counties. Was the new law to control rent? Hell, no. But if the rent is raised more than a given amount (can't remember what right now), then the tenant has the right to give 60 days notice, rather than 30.
--Let us all pause a moment to think what has happened to the already few areas for low-income housing. Gone, gone, gone. And it isn't even a blip on our radar. Which suggests that there isn't a large outpouring of concern to keep the area economically balanced. Every so often you might see an article in the paper, but we don't really care.
--Moderate Republican politicians thrive. Tom Campbell, probably the highest profile one in the area, would not have been seriously challenged in the year 2000 had it not been for his Clinton vote. And even then he'll be tough to unseat.
Our public schools are not very good, overall, and this is because the people have enough to pay for private schools, which thrive. The few areas on the Peninsula where public schools are good are also predominantly white/Asian, obviously. (Cupertino, the neighboring part of Santa Clara, Palo Alto and yeah, that's about it on this side of the Bay.)
Consider that San Mateo County has the highest per capita income in the state (at least as of a few years ago) and has some of the weakest public schools in the area. That's because this county has a very high Hispanic population and once the white residents saw the test scores plummet, their kids left. The areas that have grown rapidly in response to the growing need for housing, are almost exclusively white and Asian suburbs and have much better schools. (I'm speaking of East Bay, San Rafael and north, and south of San Jose.)
355. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 12:23 AM PT
Phew. Enough NoCal trivia. And obviously, none of this behavior is particularly unusual for any upper income area. But we're becoming an awfully *big* upper income area, and our balancing populations seem to be getting smaller and far less significant to us regardless of size. That causes a significant change in the culture.
Rich and ruthless meritocracies don't generally worry about the poor, don't demand lockspeak on the temple of PCdom or on political views, and they only give a fuck about the worker who produces--regardless of their color, religion, or political stripe. They do care about money, computers, and really good food. And the weather.
The above posts have been offered not in rebuttal to Seguine, but rather as a public service announcement to all those who loathe us here in God's Chosen Land. It is important that the ridicule aimed our way be properly formulated, else we won't attract the appropriate element to our fair region.
356. CIGARLAW - April 19, 1999 - 12:26 AM PT
case closed.
ca has the best of everything.
prettiest women. bravest and most handsome men. if we grew cuban seed tobbaco the rest of the world could go away, but our climate is too good for that.
357. IrvingSnodgrass - April 19, 1999 - 4:14 AM PT
Here's what George Carlin has to say about California (from his book "Braindroppings"):
"If you really want to understand life in California, forget the grief clinics and yogaholics. Forget biofeedback, Feldenkrais, neurolinguistic programming, and the Alexander technique.
"Disregard spirit guides, centering groups, dream workshops, bioenergetics, pyramid energy, and primal therapy.
"Ignore centering, fasting, Rolfing, grounding, channeling, rebirthing, nurturing, self-parenting, and colon cleansing.
"And don't even think about polarity work, inversion swings, flower essences, guided synchronicity, harmonic brain wave synergy, and psychocalisthenics.
"You also need pay no attention to nude volleyball, spinach therapy, white wine hot tubs, jogging on hot coals, and the people who sing Christmas carols to zoo animals.
"Forget all that. The only thing you have to know about California is this: They have traffic school for chocaholics.
"Okay?
"California is the only place where you might hear someone say, "Jason can't come to the phone, he's taking his wind lesson."
358. joezan - April 19, 1999 - 4:23 AM PT
pellenilsson - Message #297:
Are you sure? It sounds kind of Slavic, but I suppose it could be an acronym.
Anyway, are/were there many of them actually puttering down the highways of Europe? My uncle's was the only one I've ever actually seen, and it had a top speed of, I think, 50mph.
BTW, one of this cars many features, which I neglected to mention in my original post, was its primer bulb. Just like on a lawnmower, you had to push this little bulb a few times in order to prime the carb before starting.
359. IrvingSnodgrass - April 19, 1999 - 4:42 AM PT
joezan:
I couldn't find anything in English, but this page in Dutch mentions Simcas were made in France, and even has a picture. There were a lot of really clunky European cars built in the post-war era, including a Dutch car which I can't tremember the name of (but once rode in in Holland).
360. pellenilsson - April 19, 1999 - 5:23 AM PT
joezan
I think the only place you could see a Simca these days is at veteran car rallies. I remember them from the 1950's but I don't know when manufacture stopped. There were many strange French cars at the time, Dyna Panhard comes to mind.
You may mistake Simca for Skoda which was (and is) a Czech car. Skoda is now owned by Volkswagen and turns out a range of low-budget models with modest success. There was another Czech car as well - Tatraplan, with a quite curious design.
361. seguine - April 19, 1999 - 6:57 AM PT
"Someone hasn't been out here since the mid-eighties, apparently."
I left Oakland in 1992. My in-laws live in Mountain View, which I visit regularly. (I will concede that the provinces have gotten less annoying and monotonous in the past few years.)
Incidentally, refering to SF as "The City" is one of those insufferable habits of Bay Areans that really drove me mad. As though there were but one. Christ.
"And even then that was the last gasp of the frootloops."
No. You are addled from too much sniffing of eucalyptus. Who is the mayor of Oakland, and when was he elected? (I regard Jerry Brown's mayoralty in that particular city as a positive development, BTW. But he's a loop of the first water, just brighter than most.)
"And we only work really hard when we feel like it."
Yes, I was going to mention that, but thought better of it. A serious failing.
The worst general failure of Californians is their neglect of critical thinking combined with a willingness to pronounce on their own gloriousness.
362. MsIvoryTower - April 19, 1999 - 7:02 AM PT
"The worst general failure of Californians is their neglect of critical thinking combined with a willingness to pronounce on their own gloriousness."
Ahahahaha.
I'll second that.
And, btw, I'm a fan of the Bay Area, lived there for more than 13 years. Also lived in Southern California for more than 15 years. Both have their attractions, but anyone who takes this hype about California seriously is, well, seriously mislead.
There are many wonderful, interesting places to live in this country. For my tastes, this always means a major metropolitan area, but others find charms in smaller places.
363. seguine - April 19, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
"But the fact that both libertarians and evangelicals co-exist peacefully with those on both the left and the right is indication that there is little demand for lockstep on any issue in the workplace, at any rate--and in this part of the world, The WorkPlace is Life."
Totally irrelevant. Libertarians and evangelicals and adherents of Louis Farrakhan and believers in Feng Shui (or whatever) get along with each other in workplaces everywhere. (Someone hasn't been outside CA since the mid-seventies.) And even, sometimes, in neighborhoods, which CA doesn't have.
All the talk about the completely predictable voting habits of NoCalians with dinero is also beside the point--which is that they maintain their beliefs in nonsense no matter how they vote or what their interests really are. It's all about being perceived as Good, which is terribly important in CA, as in many places, but in CA Goodness takes a particular and weirdly universal form. It's as though there's a state religion. Even money and high tech have not erased the belief in "diversity" as an automatic good (though in CA diversity tends to turn into assimilation, except for the food), the belief that political underdogs are always right, that discernment in the arts is a negative, that much of science and medicine are inherently suspect, etc.
364. seguine - April 19, 1999 - 7:32 AM PT
"When they protested the Gulf War by blocking the Bay Bridge, waving signs and chanting "No Blood for Oil", how did NoCalians get there? By driving down the highway, of course. They didn't take BART, CalTrain, buses, or carpool. When they pronounce on racism in other parts of the country and the relative superiority of race relations in CA, do they back up their convictions by living among people whom the rest of the U.S. dislikes? No. San Francisco is only HALF as black (6.5%) as the rest of the U.S. in general (13%). The suburbs are divided--ever hear of East Palo Alto?
Philly, by contrast, is something like 45% black or more. When I arrived in CA from there I can tell you I got more than a little fed up with idiot Californians informing me I had found integration. Nothing could be further from the truth.
By the way, the fact that everyone in the BA looks down on Oakland always floored me. The place has a fantastic downtown. Except for the earthquake damage (even FEMA slighted Oakland for years in favor of SF!) it should be attracting business and investment like mad. Hope it is, now.
365. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 7:36 AM PT
I love CA, but have to concur with Seguine's Message #361. I, too, spent about half my life in CA---San Francisco, Monterey, Carmel, Vallejo.
I've always had the dinstinct impression that it would be very easy for me to start my own religion in CA and get obscenely wealthy. But, I had some big fun in CA.
366. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 9:36 AM PT
Seguine,
"Yes, I was going to mention that [that we don't work hard], but thought better of it. A serious failing."
Not at our salaries. Or growth rate. Bitching about it only highlights the unpleasant truth--we don't work hard, we get paid a great deal of money, and we are by and large successful. But we only like people who can produce. Possibly this is why you and your spouse left?
"I regard Jerry Brown's mayoralty in that particular city as a positive development, BTW. But he's a loop of the first water, just brighter than most."
Quite true. Oakland was also desperate. And, as you probably know, Jerry did not run on a frootloop platform but a rather sensible one.
"[Oakland] has a fantastic downtown. "
I have said so on more than one occasion, and have referred many people to my favorite Vietnamese restaurant in the area, Le Cheval. I spent nine months on a contract at Clorox.
"Except for the earthquake damage (even FEMA slighted Oakland for years in favor of SF!) it should be attracting business and investment like mad. Hope it is, now."
It wasn't last time I checked.
"Someone hasn't been outside CA since the mid-seventies"
No, in the mid-70s I was living in Saudi Arabia.
"Incidentally, refering to SF as 'The City' is one of those insufferable habits of Bay Areans that really drove me mad. As though there were but one. Christ."
Well, at least the habit has one redeeming value. And here all this time I thought it was completely pointless.
367. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 9:37 AM PT
Libertarians and evangelicals and adherents of Louis Farrakhan and believers in Feng Shui (or whatever) get along with each other in workplaces everywhere. "
I'm happy to hear it. But you were explaining how we demand lockstep with the politically correct view here. And I was explaining that we do not. Because here, The WorkPlace is All--even if we don't work very hard while we're there.
"It's all about being perceived as Good, which is terribly important in CA, as in many places, but in CA Goodness takes a particular and weirdly universal form. "
You spent too much time near Berkeley. I can't believe you find this attitude in Mountain View...."I will concede that the provinces have gotten less annoying and monotonous in the past few years"...and, in fact, you haven't. I spent several posts just explaining that your representation is not only out of date, it is ridiculously out of date, which ruins the effectiveness of your rant.
"Even money and high tech have not erased the belief in "diversity" as an automatic good (though in CA diversity tends to turn into assimilation, except for the food), the belief that political underdogs are always right, that discernment in the arts is a negative, that much of science and medicine are inherently suspect, etc. "
Outdated tripe and why I generously assumed you haven't been here very often. You can find pockets of this attitude in the previously mentioned enclaves--which I can only assume you spend much time in. The only place I have found this sort of attitude prevalent recently is in the Fray--where I was (and have said so on more than one occasion) flabbergasted by such antiquated political views among the left.
368. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 9:38 AM PT
"When they protested the Gulf War by blocking the Bay Bridge, waving signs and chanting "No Blood for Oil", how did NoCalians get there? By driving down the highway, of course. They didn't take BART, CalTrain, buses, or carpool. "
You don't seem to get it, do you? We don't shut down for protests anymore--we bitch because they fuck up the traffic. The enclaves get together and make a fuss over some meaningless political cause. It is their last stand against the dread capitalist factions that took over their fair land--and yes, the enclaves are peopled by hypocrites and morons.
"When I arrived in CA from there I can tell you I got more than a little fed up with idiot Californians informing me I had found integration"
and
"When they pronounce on racism in other parts of the country and the relative superiority of race relations in CA, do they back up their convictions by living among people whom the rest of the U.S. dislikes? No. San Francisco is only HALF as black (6.5%) as the rest of the U.S. in general (13%). The suburbs are divided--ever hear of East Palo Alto? "
You really should read rather than rant, although your fixation is amusing. I made it quite clear that high tech is not integrated--in fact, I linked to an article that gave the numbers--that we run away from the public schools when there is too much of the "foreign" element in our schools (unless it's the successful sort), and that we are completely uninterested in the poor--who are usually minorities.
The only thing I said is that we are ruthlessly self-interested and that we'll hire anyone if they can do the job but fuck 'em otherwise.
369. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 9:40 AM PT
Look, Seguine, my politics are pretty standard for the area and no one here, with the worst will in the world, could call me even a garden variety liberal, much less the *sort* of frootloop you descibe. Much less someone who insists on any sort of dogma about race, the True Good, or any other such nonsense. I am not protesting my sanity or my normalcy here, merely pointing out the obvious--whatever I am, I am *not* as you portray here politically. And I am telling you that what you describe is not only not the norm, but it's not even a particularly common variation. Merely a remnant of our shameful past. Which you seem preoccupied with. You don't seem to believe me.
But geez, you arrived in Oakland from Philadelphi (when, exactly?) and left in 1992. And have IN-LAWS in Mountain View! My goodness. So you would know.
Me, I've lived in the area for much longer than you (and the Ms and JadeGold, for that matter), and worked all over the area, from San Jose to Oakland to San Francisco to San Rafael--and all points in between. And a careful reading of my posts by someone who wasn't a fanatic would reveal that I have not been glorifying the area but explaining what is wrong with it--and why it won't change as long as we are as successful as we are.
But you are rabid and fixated, and messages don't always get through.
So try to pay attention when I tell you this: the dominant cultural standard here is Rich, Self-Absorbed, Politically Neutral, Uninvolved, Uncaring, Disinterested and Disloyal. Got it? There is much fodder for ranting there. Have fun.
370. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 9:46 AM PT
As the previous posts indicate, I could easily start my own religion in CA. It would be so easy.
371. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 9:49 AM PT
Jade,
Oh, yes, you could. We worship technology around here, and a pregnant robot could pretty much write her own ticket.
372. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 9:50 AM PT
Genuflect prior to posting, witless devotee.
373. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 10:03 AM PT
No, no, I am to be the infidel.
I shall devote my life to the cause of Revealing the True Nature of the Foul Demon That Is Jade.
374. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 10:03 AM PT
Or at least as much time as I normally spend getting a second latte.
Which ought to be enough, once you start spouting politics.
375. incognito - April 19, 1999 - 10:04 AM PT
Jade tell me what your religion would be like. I may be interested.
376. incognito - April 19, 1999 - 10:06 AM PT
Comments made earlier about Philadelphia were dead on.
"Southern hospitality" is at times over-rated and superficial I agree.
377. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 10:31 AM PT
Incog;
You are already a devotee but do not know it. It is as I planned.
Actually, my religion for CA (because it wouldn't fly anywhere else)would involve Eastern mysticism with capitalism and a splash of techno-pop. Sort of a Tao of Silicon Valley. I like the scam that Scientology has going---the more "enlightened" you become, the more I lighten your wallet. Plus, you can't beat Scientology's celebrity marketing campaign. We can also learn from Werner Erhard's Est scam.
CA eats this stuff up.
378. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 10:53 AM PT
Hmm. While you are here, get your network connections checked out. I don't think the link is up--nor has it been since the early 80s, which is the last time that *maybe* your little scam would have worked.
But that shouldn't hurt your efforts to form a new religion. Many will be fascinated by a self-replicating cybertron and, like the good technologists they are, ignore the hideous bugs in favor of the concept.
379. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 10:56 AM PT
Caligala is part of my plan. She is unaware---as I planned.
380. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 10:58 AM PT
As part of my Plan™, I needed a Larry King---but, he's in poor health.
Caligala is his intellectual equivalent.
381. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 11:05 AM PT
Oh, yes. Larry King will sell well here.
No, I suggest you try Paul at the Diamond Center. Or maybe the guy at the Men's Wearhouse.
In fact, with any luck, you could convince everyone your entire existence was a satire.
"Look! A clever parody of the outdated notions of Democratic politics! A pregnant robot with software written by McGovernite COBOL programmers back in 1975! Hahahahahaha!"
The little stick guy at the Chronicle would be leaping out of his chair.
382. IrvingSnodgrass - April 19, 1999 - 11:10 AM PT
Take it to the PlayPen, you two.
383. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 11:11 AM PT
No, Caligala, you're perfect for the Plan™. You're my Larry King.
Clueless and outspoken. We'll make a fortune in CA. Bob Schuller's Crystal Cathedral will be our carport.
384. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 11:13 AM PT
Sorry, Irv. You can't be part of the Plan™. It only works for clueless Californians.
385. CalGal - April 19, 1999 - 11:17 AM PT
Irv,
Posts on Larry King and Paul at the Diamond Center are the *essence* of Cultural Snobbism. We've been directly on topic.
386. incognito - April 19, 1999 - 11:33 AM PT
Jade I would prefer being in a religion and KNOWING I am in that religion! :)
387. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 12:07 PM PT
Incog;
In CA, it doesn't matter. Knowing and not knowing are unknown planes of reality in CA.
388. incognito - April 19, 1999 - 12:29 PM PT
So whether I know I am in CA or do not know I am CA is immaterial? Either way I am in CA?
Deeeeeeeep!
389. JadeGold - April 19, 1999 - 12:34 PM PT
CA is more a state of mind than a physical location.
390. incognito - April 19, 1999 - 12:36 PM PT
Stupid me! I thought "CA" was your new religion Jade not the state!
391. MsIvoryTower - April 19, 1999 - 12:42 PM PT
My latest example of cultural snobbery can be found in my last comment in the Movies Thread.
A classic.
392. TheDiva - April 19, 1999 - 12:44 PM PT
The Ms is culturally biased against dark, brooding types with soulful eyes.
Da noive.
393. MsIvoryTower - April 19, 1999 - 12:51 PM PT
Ugh.
More like against pretty boy's who look and act like idiots. "Smoldering" my ass.
394. patsyrolph - April 19, 1999 - 12:52 PM PT
cigarlaw has already ruled on California. "case cloaed"
However I think we're overlooking a major opportunity: cigar states he is an expert at war games. I suggest we induce him to assist Secretary of Defense Cohen in return for an unlimited supply
of single malt Scotch and fine wines and a Military Aide to assist him with pouring and the cutting of cigars, Please note the reference to fine wines the definition of which is an endless hotbed of cultural snobery and therefore makes this message on topic.
395. TheDiva - April 19, 1999 - 12:53 PM PT
Ms
You crack me up! That post *is* a classic!
396. PsychProf - April 19, 1999 - 12:59 PM PT
You wanna see a "smoldering ass", wait until Riv completes his epic journey across USA on a lawnmower...
397. TheDiva - April 19, 1999 - 1:03 PM PT
ROTFLMAOASB!!!!!!!!!
398. PsychProf - April 19, 1999 - 1:04 PM PT
Me too Deev...
399. incognito - April 19, 1999 - 1:05 PM PT
Diva what do the last three letters mean ASB?
400. TheDiva - April 19, 1999 - 1:07 PM PT
And
Snorting
Besides