302. JebXXX - Nov. 13, 1998 - 3:08 PM PT
Thanks, hashke!
I don't know what you do for a living, but your spare-time activities really impress me.
303. DanDillon - Nov. 13, 1998 - 3:14 PM PT
Mmm-hmm.
304. JebXXX - Nov. 13, 1998 - 3:22 PM PT
Dan:
You are the epitome of cool. You remind me of certain actors (comedians, mostly) who make me laugh by doing nothing. Understated elegance? Grace under fire? The character James Garner played in his last series...Rockford. He had it. A better example will come as soon as I post this.
305. JebXXX - Nov. 13, 1998 - 3:24 PM PT
Dan:
Alan Arkin has it.
306. hashke - Nov. 13, 1998 - 3:38 PM PT
Jeb:
'Dan, you are the epitome of cool.'
Mmm-hmm.
307. DanDillon - Nov. 13, 1998 - 4:26 PM PT
hashke's got it, too.
(By chance, are you an actor, hashke?)
308. JebXXX - Nov. 13, 1998 - 4:32 PM PT
Boy, if you two were really twins I could use you in another thread right now.
309. hashke - Nov. 13, 1998 - 5:34 PM PT
Dan:
A bad actor.
310. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 3:50 AM PT
hashter:
"So for total protection you might say
'khamsakhamsamelakhmayimmelakhmayimtfutfutfuH2ONaClmilHmayyabli`ayinhara`"
Well yes - but you'd have to say it three times of course.
As for "Todah, khaver":
I don't know if you know this, but after Clinton said "Shalom, khaver" when Rabin was assassinated, someone made it into a bumper sticker. This become a nationwide hit. I swear, abour 30% of all cars on the road had this sticker on them.
The year after, on the first anniversary of the murder, they came out with a version that read "khaver, ani zokher" ("friend, I remember"), and the year after it was "khaver, ata khaser" ("friend, you are missed"). This year it's "khaver, hazman 'over ve'ata khaser".
So Clinton turned out to be quite a copywriter in Hebrew - though these stickers get on my personal nerve. They are everywhere. I wonder how many more versions they'll come up with before they give it up.
311. hashke - Nov. 14, 1998 - 6:56 AM PT
Rustler:
Your post is running off of the margin (`ayin hara`). I can guess most of the text, but the punch line eludes me. Would you mind too much reposting the last three paragraphs?
312. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 7:39 AM PT
310. RustlerPike - Nov. 14, 1998 - 3:50 AM PT
hashter:
"So for total protection you might say 'khamsak
hamsamelakhmayimmelakhmayimtfutfutfuH2ONaC
lmilHmayyabli`ayinhara`"
Well yes - but you'd have to say it three times of course.
As for "Todah, khaver":
I don't know if you know this, but after Clinton said "Shalom, khaver" when Rabin was assassinated, someone made it into a bumper sticker. This become a nationwide hit. I swear, abour 30% of all cars on the road had this sticker on them.
The year after, on the first anniversary of the murder, they came out with a version that read "khaver, ani zokher" ("friend, I remember"), and the year after it was "khaver, ata khaser" ("friend, you are missed"). This year it's "khaver, hazman 'over ve'ata khaser".
So Clinton turned out to be quite a copywriter in Hebrew - though these stickers get on my personal nerve. They are everywhere. I wonder how many more versions they'll come up with before they give it up.
313. hashke - Nov. 14, 1998 - 10:27 AM PT
Rustler:
This last one looks like a play on 'hafar'/`over' and 'khaver/hafar', although 'hafar(ah)' does not appear in the slogan. Or am I going to extremes? And 'hazman' (invitation, summons)?
Oi vey, es iz a retenish! Vos iz di khokhmeh?
314. DanDillon - Nov. 14, 1998 - 11:47 AM PT
I realize this is wholly off-topic, but I was unable to get any response in the usually-helpful-for-this-sort-of-thing Corner.
Can anyone tell me anything about this B&B? I really appreciate (and am relying upon) your finer sensibilitites.
315. wonkers2 - Nov. 15, 1998 - 6:56 AM PT
DanDillon, Can't help you on the B&B but if you're near Skeneateles try dinner at "The Krebs." It is a legend in upstate New York and offers the finest traditional American cuisine I've ever had. Fixed price anround $35 not including wine last time I was there (about 5 years ago).
316. wonkers2 - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:16 AM PT
[Not sure whether this from this morning's NY Times belongs here or in the movie thread.] LOST AND GAINED IN TRANSLATION....One reason movie studios make so many action pictures is that they do well overseas. There are no translation problems when Bruce Willis is firing an Uzi or fleeing a fireball.
Comedies and dramas are a different story. Comedy, in particular, frequently hangs on the thinnest of cultural threads. But when a comic film takes off, the distributors will do every thing possible to push it overseas. Take, for instance, "There's Something About Mary," one of the biggest and silliest movies of the year...To foreign audiences, the title was mystifying. So 20th Century Fox re-named the movie country by country. In Poland, blonde jokes are popular, so the title became, "For the Love of a Blonde." In France, it was , "Mary at all Costs."...Asians prefer literal titles so in Thailand it became "My True Love Will Stand All Outrageous Events." In Hong Kong it was called "Enjoy Yourself in the Game of Love."
That's poetic by the standards of Hong Kong, where the demand for literal descriptions has produced some jarring results. The Cantonese title for "Leaving Las Vegas" translates to "I'm Drunk and You're a Prostitute." "Field of Dreams" was "Imaginary Dead Baseball Players Live in My Cornfield."
For truth in advertising you could not beat the title for "The Crying Game"--"Oh no! My Girlfriend has a Penis!"
Occasionally , the chinese seem to find unintended meanings in American movies. "Interview With the Vampire," for instance became, "So You are a Lawyer."
But there's no arguing with the Chinese take on "Babe": "The happ Dumpling-To-Be Who Talks and Solves Agricultural Problems." Or "My Best Friend's Wedding": "Help! My Pretend Boyfriend is Gay."
317. wonkers2 - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:20 AM PT
[Cont'd.] Or "George of the Jungle": Big Dumb Monkey Man Keeps Whacking Tree With Genitals." Or even "Batman and Robin": "Come to My Cave and Wear this Rubber Codpiece, Cute Boy."
But still, there is that poetic side, as with the Pamela Anderson Lee vehicle called "Barb Wire." The Chinese saw it as "Delicate Orbs of Womanhood Bigger than Your Head Can Hurt You." James Sterngold
318. JebXXX - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:38 AM PT
wonkers2:
That was blooming wonderful!!!
319. wonkers2 - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:43 AM PT
Jebxxx, It got my day started on a happy note. Glad you enjoyed it, too.
320. DanDillon - Nov. 15, 1998 - 3:48 PM PT
wonk,
Thanks for the gastronomic tip. But where is Skeneateles? (You don't mean Synecdoche, do you?) Is it close to Saratoga Springs? 'Cuz I'll definitely go to this restaurant....
321. DanDillon - Nov. 15, 1998 - 3:52 PM PT
wonk,
Nevermind.
322. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:16 PM PT
Message #12 One o' MY greatest pet-peeves: misuse of the PHRASE "a lot"...two words, mind you! ;)
323. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:22 PM PT
Message #16 Touche (insert "accente aigu" over "e"), hashke. Hehheh
324. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:27 PM PT
Message #21 Sowwy, harr...the old "I-type-too-fast-for-my-own-good" excuse, EH? Just joshin' ya.... ;)
325. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:36 PM PT
Message #53 I've heard "...gives me the willies;" not familiar with "wiggins" in that usage. Prolly (online-chat speak) stems from the "local" in "colloquialism." ;)
326. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 4:40 PM PT
Message #60 Touche to harre, too. Just wanted to preserve case-ending there, harr; hence the added "e." Teehee
327. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 5:19 PM PT
K--here's my contribution to neologistics: the use of the suffix -"age" as an append-"age" (note, this *usage* is NOT neologistic, nor is *THIS* one--hehheh) to virtually any part of speech in order to hype one's diction. (Hype is to hip as byte is to bit--that just occured to me as I was composing this bytage). Anyway, I first encountered this lexicalization when a friend told me she had "scoopage" for me, i.e., gossip, or, in my subsequent flagrantly abusive rendering of the neologism, gossipage. <cough, cough> So--thanks for your patience. I sign-off now in order to send this postage. ;)
328. CharlieL - Nov. 15, 1998 - 5:57 PM PT
Ellespelle, thank you for the verbiage.
329. CharlieL - Nov. 15, 1998 - 6:01 PM PT
From Message #327 I now know that what clothing designers put over on the public can be described as "garbage."
330. DanDillon - Nov. 15, 1998 - 6:31 PM PT
Chuck,
You are one clever little devil.
331. CharlieL - Nov. 15, 1998 - 6:49 PM PT
Dan, thanks for the homage.
332. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:26 PM PT
Guys, guys--the idea is that the appended suffix -"age" be extraneous to the original word; so, not a one of Chris' albeit witty applications of the -"age" ending are actual neologisms. Well, the "garbage" bit is close, given that the original meaning of the word has been duly adulterated in this context; close but no diceage. Disclaimerage: this message (not neologistic) should not be construed as criticism of any particular Fray postage.
333. Ellespelle - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:29 PM PT
Guys, guys--the idea is that the appended suffix -"age" be extraneous to the original word; so, not a one of Chris' albeit witty applications of the -"age" ending are actual neologisms. Well, the "garbage" bit is close, given that the original meaning of the word has been duly adulterated in this context; close but no diceage. Disclaimerage: this message (not neologistic) should not be construed as criticism of any particular Fray postage.
334. CharlieL - Nov. 15, 1998 - 7:30 PM PT
Ellespelle, the first time I heard the suffix "-age" applied to other words was by Pauly Shore about ten years ago. It was his entire act. Also not funny. Words that apply to everything about him.
335. wonkers2 - Nov. 15, 1998 - 9:25 PM PT
DanDillon, That's the place. It's a first class restaurant. Skaneatales is around 150? miles east of Saratoga Springs and South off the NY Thruway near Syracuse. A bit far for you I guess.
336. CoralReef - Nov. 15, 1998 - 9:28 PM PT
Modelizers -- that's a word Tyra Banks used to describe looks-obsessed celebrity men.
337. DanDillon - Nov. 16, 1998 - 5:26 AM PT
Ellespelle Message #332 & Message #333,
It's supposed to be funny. Humorous. Droll. Laughable. Silly. Hysterical. Hahahaha. Ya know?
(Sheesh.)
338. Ellespelle - Nov. 16, 1998 - 4:42 PM PT
Message #334 and Message #337 Hmmm...to my recollection Pauly Shore would extend any suffix, not just -"age," merely elongating it with an annoying drone. Anyway, who the hell cares (rhetorical, of course). Dan, the neologism I described isn't truly meant to be hysterical in any way; it's just applied to lend ease to one's speech--ya know, add some stylage. K, time to stop the babbling gabbage (that's with 2 "b"s, no "r"). Oh yeah, and scratch Message #333...my computer stutters at times....
339. DanDillon - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:17 AM PT
Is it "Elle spelle"? Or "Elles pelle[nt]"?
Either way, you missed my #337 entirely. 'Tis *Chuck* who's funny, humorous, droll, etc. On the other hand, your '-age' affix is simply sophomoric. But keep trying. We like new people.
(Hey Chuck, ever seen your name in asterisks before? Pretty special, eh?)
340. resonance - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:23 AM PT
Enough with the carnage, you bandaged teenager. I wonder what Levi-Strauss would have made of all of this.
341. DanDillon - Nov. 17, 1998 - 5:58 AM PT
Let's Play The Match Game!
1) a person born after the the mid 1960s
2) a team leader, esp. one in a business setting
3) an person whose concern about the environment is slight
4) a rich person, usually a teenager
a. bifftad
b. grouser
c. baby buster
d. shusa
342. resonance - Nov. 17, 1998 - 6:08 AM PT
c, d, b, a
343. DanDillon - Nov. 17, 1998 - 6:56 AM PT
3) "an person"?!?!?! Whoa.
Yes, res, you are right on all four. Too easy.
344. RustlerPike - Nov. 17, 1998 - 10:56 AM PT
hashke:
"This last one looks like a play on 'hafar'/`over' and khaver/hafar', although 'hafar(ah)' does not appear in the slogan. Or am I going to extremes? And 'hazman' (invitation, summons)?"
Huh? I don't get it. *Hafarah* means "violation". Is that what you mean? What's *hafar*?
*khaver, hazman 'over ve'ata khaser* means - "friend, time goes by and you are missed" (*hazman* - "[the] time". *'over* - "goes by"). And it rhymes. Make sense now?
345. RustlerPike - Nov. 17, 1998 - 11:01 AM PT
Chuck:
Modern garbage stinks: it's all machine sewage.
346. Ellespelle - Nov. 17, 1998 - 6:51 PM PT
Message #339 DanD, it's not "Elle s'appelle," if that's what you're wondering ("her name is..." in French); it's just a play on my real name, including a pseudo-double-entendre: "spell" as in use letters to form words and "spell" as in sorcery--so, be advised as to the implications of the latter inuendo.... ;) May I add that my preferred form for the word "sophomoric" is "sophomoricish"...you know the ropes...add the suffix -"ish" (no need to generalize this as an "a"ffix--it will always appear at the end of a word, hence, suffix) to any adjective or adverb for added flair.... And yes, I agree that this too is immaturish, especially in comparison to the obvious erudition underlying your posts. ;P
347. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 17, 1998 - 7:12 PM PT
To all denizens of this thread:
I am taking suggestions for a new Language thread topic. Personally, I'd enjoy a topic relating to historical linguistics, but I doubt that many others would be interested.
So, tell already... what would you like to see?
348. Ellespelle - Nov. 17, 1998 - 8:07 PM PT
Message #346 um, inNuendo.... ;)
349. DanDillon - Nov. 18, 1998 - 5:23 AM PT
I'd like to toy with a topic on historical linguistics. But, ya know, that's just me.
Course, grammar would be nice, too. (All kinds.)
350. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 10:18 AM PT
Rustler:
Slikha! Avoy, kazeh burut! Tisbokhet tipshi, bilbul `im hamilon. Yesh mila 'hazmanah', aval `eyn shaykhut `im 'hazman'. Aha, yesh 'zman' (aravit 'zaman'). Ve dvarim benoge'a le 'hafarah/`over/khaver ze rak aremahat tso'ah!!
Tishkhakh mizeh, khaver. Ani rak bemaavar.
351. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 10:25 AM PT
Irv:
Let fly on historical linguistics! We'll sit at the feet of the master.
How about something on the history and function of the Yi-/Bi- alternation in Athabascan? Just kidding, of course!
352. RustlerPike - Nov. 18, 1998 - 10:45 AM PT
hahahahahashke!!!
353. jebXXX - Nov. 18, 1998 - 10:59 AM PT
What's another word for thesaurus?
354. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 11:33 AM PT
Rustler:
Is that hahaha from appreciation of humor, or are you lashing away at something ludicrous that I have done with my Hebrew morphology or syntax?
355. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 12:00 PM PT
Jeb:
Synonymy, synonym finder.
356. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 12:07 PM PT
Rustler:
I should have said 'dvarim be`alma' and 'bema`avar', eh?
C'mon, teach me! Be the first dyed-in-the-wool, kosher, on-line rabbi! Frabbi.
357. RustlerPike - Nov. 18, 1998 - 12:40 PM PT
Hash:
Nonono - you were great. Especially the tsoah bit! Hahaha! The only real mistakes were a couple of times you used the wrong gender (burut, tisbokhet are feminine). Very quaint!!!
Uh-oh, I'm gonna sneeze.
Ha...
ha...
ha...
HASHKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
358. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 1:10 PM PT
Rustler:
That there sneeze blew the roof off my barn! Not a chicken left.
Them gender languages are 'ke'ev beha`akuz', unless you speak 'em natively.
359. DanDillon - Nov. 18, 1998 - 2:31 PM PT
So, when's the new topic gonna get underway? This neologistic business is history!
360. Jenerator - Nov. 18, 1998 - 3:08 PM PT
I want to learn Hebrew from Pike and Hashke!!! Where do I sign up?:)
361. Seguine - Nov. 18, 1998 - 4:01 PM PT
Calling all linguists with opinions about human language development!
And child development types!
Quiz:
(Imagine you're watching a videotape of the following scenario with the image of the child blurred out.)
Child wakes up in the middle of the night. Tired mother goes to child's room to see if s/he's OK and finds father has come in just before her. Child appears to be asleep.
Says mother, "Is [s/he] alright? Is [s/he] sick?"
Before father can answer, child, as if talking in sleep, says:
"Mommy go away. I not sick. I just lying down."
_______
Question: What is the age and gender of the child?
362. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 4:05 PM PT
Jenerator:
You'll have to speak to el maestro, Rabbi Pike. I'm still wet behind the ears when it comes to Hebrew.
363. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 18, 1998 - 7:15 PM PT
Seguine:
Sounds like a two-year old girl to me.
Dan, Hashké:
OK, gimme a good topic, then... something we can sink our teeth into.
364. CoralReef - Nov. 18, 1998 - 7:57 PM PT
Irv: The only halfway usable topic I can come up with is 'what makes good writing?' (or something like that....) But it may not be linguistic enough.
As to Seguine's question, I'd guess a 4 year old girl.
365. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 8:27 PM PT
Dan:
A coupla home-groaners to temporarily slake your thirst for the neologism:
nog-kneed -- a common affliction around this time of the year, as in 'Dworkin is sure tossing back the sauce, and now he's walking funny, like sort of nog-kneed'.
horsepitalization -- leaving yr colt with the vet, as in 'Hasenpfeffer's colt got real sick and had to horsepitalized.
366. hashke - Nov. 18, 1998 - 8:34 PM PT
Irv:
You're the Gruppenführer, your choice.
If you haven't thought of something by morning, perhaps Dan or I might do so.
367. jebxxx - Nov. 19, 1998 - 3:46 AM PT
Seguine:
I can't stand it. Tell us.
Is it a bright 9-year old female (daughter of immigrants)?
Is it a teenaged boy with Down's Syndrome?
If the child's old enough and lucid enough to know it's not part of its mother, why does it not use the pronoun "am"?
With my luck, the power'll go off here in the mountains and I'll have to wait about 9-1/2 more days (to discover, once again, just exactly how dull-witted I am).
368. jebxxx - Nov. 19, 1998 - 4:09 AM PT
Just read my posting. Would like to say that it isn't necessary for the power to go off...
369. DanDillon - Nov. 19, 1998 - 5:05 AM PT
jeb,
"...the pronoun 'am'"?
I'm sorry, but you have to go sit in the corner.
370. resonance - Nov. 19, 1998 - 5:10 AM PT
I am going to say somewhere around thirty-three months, and female. I was going to say male, because the child obviously possesses the good sense to order women around. He's a quick learner, perhaps.
(smile)
But, no, my answer is female.
371. jebxxx - Nov. 19, 1998 - 5:11 AM PT
Dan:
That's what I was referring to. Or, rather, that's the idiocy to which I was referring. If I belabor this, there'll be a way to say, though not without a comma, "Dan Rather."
372. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 19, 1998 - 5:36 AM PT
Res:
In other words, a two-year old girl. But my wording was much pithier (with a nod to Dan).
373. resonance - Nov. 19, 1998 - 5:47 AM PT
Oh, sure, cop out and don't define the months. Sure, there's only three utterances, and sure, there isn't any psychomotor data in the video, and sure, there's some strange stuff, but real men give their answer in months, anyway.
Actually, I just now thought about the child almost being asleep. Maybe I should have tacked on that extra three months, exact science that this is. (smile)
374. hashke - Nov. 19, 1998 - 6:20 AM PT
Why is 'there are only three' capsizing into 'there's only three'? It has become pandemic in this country. Is 'there's three', grammatically incorrect, easier to say than 'there are three'???
375. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 7:18 AM PT
Quiz Results:
The child is male and 27 months old.
Irv comes closest to being perfectly right, but Resonance was the only one who thought the child MIGHT be male, and since I suspect Irv has an advantage in parental experience, Res and Irv split the prize (an all-expense-paid excursion for 40 days and 40 nights to BEEYOOTIFUL *BAGHDAD*!)
The special Honorable Mention prize goes to Jeb for even attempting to participate from his perch deep in the mountains atop an unreliable manure-powered home-electric-supply turbine.
I'm curious, how did you gentlemen arrive at your conclusions?
376. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 19, 1998 - 7:30 AM PT
Seguine:
I estimated the age based on linguistic input - specifically, the lack of the verb "to be," which is usually pretty well formed by the age of three in English native speakers.
The sex of the child was a guess, based on the assumption that it was a phrase more likely to have been originally uttered by the child's mother (except in *my* house). I think it's almost impossible to assign a sex to young children's utterances. The different "languages" men and women speak develop much later.
Young girls are a bit faster in their linguistic development, and since I had assumed an age of two, this was a factor in my choosing the female sex, since the utterance itself (though clearly an imitation) is rather a sophisticated utterance for that age.
377. resonance - Nov. 19, 1998 - 7:36 AM PT
The way that the negative was constructed (stage two or three), the morphemes per utterance (weak, given the extremely small sample), the ability to match the pronoun to the subject, let's see, telegraphic sentences, correct affixation. A lot of stuff I should remember but don't. Matched against the trouble with function words. My original guess was thirty months, but the morpheme count made me edge it up a bit. The problem with the function words was something that rings true with the age you gave, though. This will teach me to place weight on an incomplete utterance sample!
And I really was joking about the male part. I thought female because of Electra.
378. resonance - Nov. 19, 1998 - 7:40 AM PT
I, too, was thinking about paraphrasing, but I was thinking that the father would have already asked the child if he were sick, and then when the child said no, asked if the child were having trouble sleeping. And when the mother entered the room, the child had those paraphrases on his lips. Which, now that I think about it, would be a good reason why the utterances were longer.
But I didn't think about the gender of the utterer, the way Snood did.
379. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 8:08 AM PT
"The sex of the child was a guess, based on the assumption that it was a phrase more likely to have been originally uttered by the child's mother (except in *my* house)."
Oh Supine One, the strange thing is, I can't recall ever having uttered anything like it, nor any situation in which I might have. (The child, as you may have guessed, is my son.) Not at all recently, anyway.
Most adults, as I understand it, recall little or nothing of their lives before the age of three. But what do children around that age remember?
And why did you link the gender to the gender of the adult who most likely said the thing copied? Do girls copy their mothers and boys their fathers at this age?
Res: The ordering-around business he undoubtedly gets from me.
380. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 19, 1998 - 8:29 AM PT
Seguine:
If he didn't hear it from you or his father, he probably heard it on TV or from another adult he has contact with. I would bet my bottom dollar that it is an imitation.
Children's memories are astounding. Consider the fact that children absorb and learn an incredible amount of language in their early years (something like 30 words a day). Young children are often able to remember the exact words they heard a day or so ago. But these memories are also often soon crowded out by the masses of information coming in.
"And why did you link the gender to the gender of the adult who most likely said the thing copied? Do girls copy their mothers and boys their fathers at this age?"
Often, yes. But it also depends on how strongly parents define sex roles... something I'd be less inclined to believe exists in your family.
381. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 9:06 AM PT
"Young children are often able to remember the exact words they heard a day or so ago."
Or longer. It really is mindblowing what they retain.
And puzzling what they forget. For instance, my son knew five colors at ten months. He could pick out a red, yellow, blue, orange, or green toy, or spot on the wallpaper at the doctor's office, or flower, or car or truck. Sometimes he could remember pink and purple. Now, he can identify a couple more colors sporadically, but he's no where near consistent. In fact, I think he lost the ability to reliably associate the names of colors with colors he saw when he was maybe 18 months or a little younger.
"Do girls copy their mothers and boys their fathers at this age?"
IS: "Often, yes. But it also depends on how strongly parents define sex roles... something I'd be less inclined to believe exists in your family."
Huh. I wonder why that is.
You know, every day when I get up and put on my pearls, and my husband and protector straps on his armor and rides out into the corporate jungle in his pickup truck, football tucked under his arm, I think: Oh God, what if my son grows up to be a queer? And so, whenever my child slams his head into the corner of a table or smashes his finger with his toy hammer, I make sure I scream at him "YOU LITTLE PUSSY! BOYS DON'T CRY!"
382. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 19, 1998 - 9:16 AM PT
Seguine:
I accept that my comment came off as a sexist comment, which was not my intention.
It is interesting to see how society does allocate roles to children, at what age, and what effect enlightened (or unelightened) parents have. I highly recommend the work of Deborah Tannen in this field.
383. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 9:27 AM PT
Hold up, bucko. I didn't think your comment came off as sexist. I just meant to confirm your guess about my lifestyle, in an inverted sort of way.
I'm tremendously ignorant about children in general; parenthood has been something of an odyssey thus far.
384. jebxxx - Nov. 19, 1998 - 9:46 AM PT
Seguine:
I still think it's a bright 9-year old girl, and that two languages are spoken in the house. It's the use of "lying." Go check.
385. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 19, 1998 - 9:48 AM PT
Seguine:
I guess *I* felt it sounded a bit sexist, although I didn't intend it. And I was pretty sure about my guess on your lifestyle.
I know I'll probably catch some grief over this, but I believe that parenthood, like teaching, cannot be "learned." One is either a good parent (or teacher) or one isn't. Enjoy your odyssey... I hope it's as rewarding as mine has been.
386. PsychProf - Nov. 19, 1998 - 9:59 AM PT
Seg...it never ends.
387. ChristiPeters - Nov. 19, 1998 - 10:30 AM PT
Fascinating. This speaks to an experience I had with my daughter. First I will preface that she is an only child, there were no other children in the neighborhood at the time, and I had only worked with children aver the age of 7. So I had no basis of comparison as to what to expect at very young ages. I just treated/spoke her like a *person* rather than like a baby.
Lil' Darlin' was 22 months old and had gotten a Pooh stuffy from her Aunt which she was dragging with her everywhere. I was chatting with a friend in the living room when LD came over to me, handed me Pooh and declared, "It's a baby, Mommy. rock the baby." While obediently rocking "baby" Pooh, I asked her, "Is he a good baby?" LD answered, "Oh, not particularly, he naughty some times."
I commented that he was a "pretty baby" and handed Pooh back to LD while my friend picked up her jaw from the floor. After LD left the room, my friend did some intense talking to me to inform me that I was the parent of a "Gifted Child". (Yes, she really did say it in capitols.)
At the time, I was just wondering how it was that LD could pronounce "particularly" correctly, and use the word in context, but I couldn't persuade her to say "he *is* naughty" rather than "he naughty".
So, experts ... why?
What was the developmental milestone she had to cross to use "is"?
388. teller - Nov. 19, 1998 - 10:54 AM PT
who's the best writer in the fray?
389. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 11:10 AM PT
Jeb,
I checked, and surprisingly, you're right. It *is* a 9 year old girl, and the languages spoken in the house are English and American.
ChristiPeters,
We've had similar experiences here. But I have a feeling that such children aren't "gifted", necessarily. (Although maybe your girl was identified as gifted later as well?) My bet is that "normal" is an average, not a median measure of development. So, perhaps most kids develop faster than "average" because the lower end of the scale drags down the mean.
My favorite recent mind boggler was more a conceptual achievement than a linguistic one. I had hidden away a toy of my son's because he kept getting frustrated with it and I thought he wouldn't miss it. He didn't, at first. But then one weekend he asked his father, "Where moving truck?" Since I had advised my mate of my subterfuge in advance, he knew where to find the truck, and so he told our son, "Oh, Mommy hid it away in the closet. I'll get it for you," which he did. I wasn't present for this exchange, so wasn't prepared when later I came downstairs and was met by my offspring. He glared at me, perfectly outraged, and pointed his finger: "NAUGHTY MOMMY HID MY MOVING TRUCK!"
390. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 11:21 AM PT
Another question for the experts: What's the story on pronouns? My son uses "I" and "my" correctly, but he uses "you" in place of "me" (as in, "Mommy get juice [for] you, please.")
As for the verb to be, he will use "am" if reminded, and contractions (e.g., "My bottom's itchy"), but he doesn't use "is".
391. ChristiPeters - Nov. 19, 1998 - 11:29 AM PT
Well, you didn't answer my question, but then I don't know if there are any child development experts reading this thread.
Lil' Darlin' has continued to be considered "gifted", having tested at the 9th through 11th grade level while in 3rd grade, and continuing her all 'A' record now in a 5th grade class for the "gifted and talented".
I've always wondered, however, how much of this is "nature" and how much is "nurture". It seems logical that she spoke "proper" words because that's what she she heard. Neither her father nor I ever baby-talked to her and we still answer all her questions with no attempt to 'talk down' or over-symplify.
Oh well, the nature vs nurture thread is gone. This is the Language thread so I won't waste any more space here. I was just hoping one of the "language experts" could explain: What was the developmental milestone she had to cross to use "is"?
TTFN
392. ChristiPeters - Nov. 19, 1998 - 11:30 AM PT
oops - "she"
not "she she"
393. resonance - Nov. 19, 1998 - 3:38 PM PT
Seguine:
I never, ever, would have guessed that you would be the one to teach, ah, assertiveness. I'm just surprised the child didn't agitate for a Sex Thread while in the process of ordering you from the room.
I *am* pleased, however, that you didn't take my jokingly sexist comments seriously. The world needs more ersatz-unreformed commentary, when we've the handwringingly cautious likes of Snood abo-ut.
394. Seguine - Nov. 19, 1998 - 4:11 PM PT
I forgot to mention the part about his agitating for a Sex Thread. The other thing he regularly asks for is apple juice.
395. DanDillon - Nov. 19, 1998 - 4:20 PM PT
CP Message #387,
They're capitals, not capitols.
Looks like this thread's doin' just fine without artificially imposed topics. Carry on.
396. ChristiPeters - Nov. 20, 1998 - 8:26 AM PT
Hey, Dan, I've already admitted that I can't spell!
BTW, congrats on the engagement.
397. RustlerPike - Nov. 20, 1998 - 9:18 AM PT
Teller Message #388
I is.
398. NickVanston - Nov. 20, 1998 - 10:21 AM PT
Well, I am the parent of a linguistically handicapped child. When he was about 3 years old, I spent 30 minutes one evening teaching him to say "Please peel me an apple" rather than pointing at an apple and saying "apple, apple". The next day, he pointed at one of his toy trucks. I said "What do you say?" He replied "Please peel me a truck".
399. jebxxx - Nov. 20, 1998 - 11:27 AM PT
Nick:
Personally, I think that's very creative. I don't believe even Salvadore Dali thought of it. And I'll bet you'll either write it down or remember it for the rest of your life.
400. DanDillon - Nov. 23, 1998 - 5:55 AM PT
New topic idea for this thread: the most egregious usage you've ever encountered and why you consider it so.
Okay, or ethnolinguistics.
Whatever.