What Would a Terrorist Do?

What is your nightmare scenario for the next terrorist attack?

1. joezan - 10/16/2001 9:58:49 PM

What Would a Terrorist Do?

It's been reported that the gov't has enlisted several Hollywood screenwriters to come up with different scenarios for possible future terrorist attacks.

How about we do the same?

We could discuss rules/parameters, but here's what I'd like to see:

1) Limited to present players in the actual events, as well as any affiliated group, meaning those on the gov't's recently released list of terrorist orgs.

2) Speculation is, of course, encouraged - but let's limit it to what these groups are reasonably capable of doing.

For now, I'm just going to look around for relevant links, while I refine my own dastardly plots. In the meantime, feel free to post your own nightmare scenarios (or sick fantasies, if that's the side you fall on).

I will know it is time to retire this thread when we have gone a few days without some hyper-reactive drama queen coming in and demanding we stop before we give an actual terrorist ideas.

2. Toenails - 10/16/2001 11:16:03 PM

Stop, before you give an actual terrorist ideas.

(Now, in three days, you must retire this thread.)

3. labwabbit - 10/16/2001 11:19:29 PM

What would a terrorist do?

Die laughing over the idiocy of this thread.

(Sorry joe, won't be funny or amusing in the coming months, to anybody....excep a terrorist.)

But maybe I'm being to serious here. Oh well, have fun if it wets your wick.

4. judithathome - 10/16/2001 11:25:38 PM

Is there a prize for the closest scenario?

5. Absensia - 10/16/2001 11:35:42 PM

First they infiltrate the NRA, and then convince Congress to outlaw guns. Right, Labby? ; )

6. CalGal - 10/16/2001 11:50:46 PM

They shave their beard, change their clothes to cheap cotton shirts and worn baggy pants, slick their hair and call themselves names like Jose, Ferdinand, Jesus, and Xavier, learning as much pidgeon Spanish as they can. They hire on, using false id, with janitorial services, who assume they are illegal aliens, selecting ones that have contracts with major corporations. Going from office to office, building to building, every night, they have the access to any one of a number of nasty options:

• Insert small time bombs in every office and working area, all set to detonate at a particular time.
• If they have the ability, "dirty" nuclear bombs--or even large explosive devices, one per corporation or city
• Sabotage, through water, fire, or physical destruction, the mainframes containing the databases for all the major financial business in the country.
• Sprinkle anthrax on the windowsills and in the ventilation systems, as well as toilets.

7. joezan - 10/16/2001 11:53:10 PM

lab:

You are much too serious and given to over-reaction (and hokey sentimentality) to wander too far away from the Cafe anyway.

I don't think you'll be missed here.

Really.

8. labwabbit - 10/16/2001 11:56:19 PM

AWWww... gee that hurts joe.

I know I have a heart now...because it's breaking.

moron.

9. CalGal - 10/16/2001 11:59:31 PM

Lab, you just gave some advice to Stumbo in another thread. Why not follow it, instead of being an ass? And Joe, I actually played your damn game, so quit sniping at the dildo who's bitching and say "Jesus, CalGal, that's fucking stupid."

10. joezan - 10/17/2001 12:00:16 AM

Toodles.

BTW - if anyone wants to take that GlobeXplorer link, there are links on the left side of the page for post-attack aerial views of the WTC and Pentagon. You may zoom out from those for broader views of NYC and DC.

11. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 12:01:24 AM

Hey you inspid bitch...

good to see you back.

12. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 12:03:09 AM

really.

13. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 12:09:51 AM

...ashes, ashes...we all faw-down.

End of game.


(Dildo? Haha...perhaps...best you'd ever have dearest.)

14. joezan - 10/17/2001 12:19:42 AM

Cal:

I dunno...I was having a problem with your suggestion in the Attack thread that ME-erners could be mistaken for Hispanics, and vice-versa.

But then I remembered:

On 9/23, my nephew (the one with the beard)

told me he'd gone to some club the night before, and noticed it got real quiet when he walked in.

(His friend, who was there waiting for him, told him a bunch of people started whispering Hey - is that guy an Arab???!!!)

Not a drop of ME or Hispanic blood in him.

But the real problem I see with your scenario is that there would likely be real hispanics working there who'd catch on and report them.

15. Cellar Door - 10/17/2001 12:25:43 AM

Ace marries Ann Coulter.

'Nuff said.

16. CalGal - 10/17/2001 12:32:47 AM

Joe,

I think it extremely unlikely that any illegal alien would go to the cops, especially now. If they reported Arabs, they would know full well it would mean that all Mexican illegals would have a lousy time. Besides, they wouldn't have to speak much--it's not like they are co-workers who spend a lot of time together.

I think it more likely that an employer who spoke Spanish might figure it out--but from what I've read, few of them speak Spanish.

17. joezan - 10/17/2001 7:55:55 AM

Message says Navy facilities watched by suspicious-looking Middle Easterners

The Navy is investigating 11 incidents in which "Arab" or "Middle Eastern" males appeared to be conducting surveillance of naval bases, and, on one occasion, a truck loaded with munitions, according to an internal message to commanders.

The Oct. 11 message from the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) recounts disturbing cases of suspicious activity around major air bases and ports that could be the prelude to terrorist attacks. A copy of the message was obtained by The Washington Times....

18. Jenerator - 10/17/2001 10:21:48 AM

CalGal,

Two men of Middle Eastern descent applied for school bus driver positions here. In the applications, they listed previous addresses from Florida. They both had college degrees and both had been unemployed since June. Needless to say, they were reported to the FBI.

Initially, the interviewer thought they were Mexican.

19. CalGal - 10/17/2001 10:25:46 AM

What names did they use?

20. jexster - 10/17/2001 11:09:33 AM

Nice to see JoeZ with a thread that "calls all sickos"

Terrorist Attacks on Silcon Valley???

or will CalGal be filing reports from the new Ground Zero?

This is CalGal reporting for al-JaMote, back to you Tom

21. Cellar Door - 10/17/2001 11:27:06 AM

The handwriting on those letters sent to Daschele's and Brokaw's offices is classic crazy-scrawl.

I'm beginning to think that chances of Osama Bin Ladin's connection to this may be less than we've all imagined.

22. Jenerator - 10/17/2001 11:45:07 AM

CalGal,

I don't know. This wasn't on the news, someone on the inside told me.

23. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 12:51:20 PM

...shades of the AoA thread.

Yep..."Uncle Osama" sure is proud. A brilliant idea.

Lesseee...let's make a comparative case. Let's look at this effort here, and evaluate "worst nightmare" scenario for any individual, and then see it's relative impact for making Uncle-O proud.

OO-K joe, let's say someone attacks your mother in the middle of the night and rapes her mercilessly for hours. Would/could that be a "worse nightmare scenario" for you personally? Now, after the fact, and as what happens begins to sink in somebody has an idea to construct a "humorous" way to look at this "less sentimentally" of course, and tries to figure out how it could be done better(worse). Let's have fun with this joe...let's see how much better someone could rape your sister...or daughter...or you. Goddamn...I'm already having a difficult time trying to stop my self from laughing...(while reveling in pure objectivity of course.)

Ahhh...but don't worry my boy...it's all in fun. Your mother was just another victim amongst many. It's ok to have fun with it. It's ok to imagine just how much worse it could be if it were perhaps someone else's mother, or even *stifling a giggle*, your mother. How could it be done better the next time. Oh boy, I'm having way to much fun in the guise of objectivity here...stop me before I laugh myself hokey(er).

I think however, that folks like you have already, and long ago, made "Uncle Osama" very, very proud.

24. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 12:56:42 PM

Oh...How do you like me now?


Hokey-Dokey.

25. vonKreedon - 10/17/2001 12:59:25 PM

Short of Pakistan losing control of its nukes and having them reappear explosively....

Liquid Natural Gas/Liquid Propane Gas tanker ship docked at high density urban port. Initial small explosion to areosolize and larger trigger to destroy entire dock area in an enormous fuel/air explosion.

26. Ms. No - 10/17/2001 1:54:28 PM

Labwabbit,

I understand that this thread upsets you but I think it serves a much less morbid purpose than you suspect.

There are government think tanks engaged in just this sort of "What if..." right now and it's not to entertain themselves with thoughts of bloody destruction but to try to outwit future terrorist attacks.

Had they been thinking this way a year ago and come up with the idea of using a commercial jet as a bomb we likely could have prevented the attacks of 9-11.

Truly, I understand what you feel is morbid about it, but I think also that replaying a disasterous event in one's mind and changing one's response is a valid and valuable way to prevent such disasters in future. Surely you've had moments in your life where you think "If only I'd known this or done that I might've prevented loss and suffering."

As for your example of rape I can tell you that I and my female friends do talk about what might happen to us and most self-defense classes teach you to be prepared by telling you just how vulnerable you are in what kinds of situations.

It's sad that we need to know these kinds of things, but I think that it serves no purpose to refuse to think how to protect ourselves for the sake of propriety.

27. rubberducky - 10/17/2001 2:12:14 PM

from my movies post:

Altman says put me in the news -- please!

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Afghanistan may have been the breeding ground for last month's terrorist attacks, but Hollywood served as a source of inspiration, says director Robert Altman.

"The movies set the pattern, and these people have copied the movies," Altman said Tuesday by phone from London, where he's finishing his film "Gosford Park.""Nobody would have thought to commit an atrocity like that unless they'd seen it in a movie."

So violent action movies with huge explosions amount to training films for such bold attacks, as studios spend a lot of time and money trying to appeal to young males, the 76-year-old filmmaker said

"How dare we continue to show this kind of mass destruction in movies," said Altman, whose directing credits include "M-A-S-H,""Nashville" and "Dr. T & the Women.""I just believe we created this atmosphere and taught them how to do it."

28. Cellar Door - 10/17/2001 2:14:40 PM

Actually I think he has a point, but he's expressing it poorly.

The WTC attack provided the workd with an image it hadn't really seen before -- save in the Die Hard movies, which it managed to trump.

29. rubberducky - 10/17/2001 2:23:49 PM

possible - it's just the blame game i find so disgusting

30. janjon - 10/17/2001 2:25:19 PM

This thread will not thrive.

Mostly, but not completely, because for most people concocting ever more clever or diabolical schemes isn't palatable/fun/entertaining.

Having said that, I also add that I wholeheartedly agree that we must, collectively, think about and to the extent feasible guard against/prepare for a variety of heretofore unthinkables. Hiding one's head is foolish.

But, this thread won't be conducive to such an exercise. Perhaps it is the lead-in:

Calling all sickos! Give us your nightmare scenario for the next terrorist attack. Make Uncle Ossama proud!

Life goes on. We are urged to eat out, to go to the theater, to laugh. That title isn't funny and, albeit it early in the game, the evidence to date in this thread indicates that the tone will emulate the title.

Goodbye.

31. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 2:48:03 PM

MsNo..
That is true, what you say, in scientific application and when approached in a process of logistical analysis...but there is nothing I will ever agree to that places this event in any humorous context. My country has been raped- My family and friends have been raped- I have been raped... of freedom, and everything I had worked for in the light of hope, that eventually, living peaceably with all peoples of this country and planet was achievable, if not just sustainable.

Am I sentimental? You bet I am...and I have earned every fucking minute of "hokey" I now expend.
But I'd shove every ounce or shred of sentimentality up whoever's ass has there head up it, if I could be guaranteed I will speak with my son once again...if I could be assured that my brothers and other relatives who paid ultimately to grant "humorous folks" their right to exist...or that even this scenario-exercise contained any evidence that it is indeed an exercise of mind power in rational approach.
But is not...nor will it be...therefore it is a slap in the face to those that have, (and will have) sacrificed all trhat means anything, by those whose very existence is a result of taking it all as their right.

I apologize to you MsNo, my friends and others here, and in RL if my edginess has offended you/them...but I offer no apologies to any one who thinks what I stand on is a joke, or is something that is owed to them. I offer no apologies, nor any quarter, to those who find that the decimation of what the blood and tears of many I have loved have built is funny or entertaining. Nor will I ignor it passively any longer.

The context of this thread is highly objectionable. But when put into perspective is only representative of one's right to do so...and is of no further consequence than what is presently at hand.

Laugh it up while you can I guess...you won't be laughing much longer anyhow.

32. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 2:49:56 PM

"their head" up it...

33. Ms. No - 10/17/2001 4:43:50 PM

Labwabbit,

No, you didn't offend me in the least and no I do not think that what you stand for is a joke. I don't even find it hokey. All I can suggest is that you not visit this thread because it upsets you. I don't find the fact of your upset surprising or unreasonable but nor do I find the wish of some to play "what if..." surprising or unreasonable.

I was only trying to show it in a different light and possibly give you ease. I'm sorry that I couldn't do that.

34. Jenerator - 10/17/2001 4:44:01 PM

Joe,

I wonder if the terrorists could create a poison that could be mixed with the ink on our currency.

35. labwabbit - 10/17/2001 5:52:58 PM

CO

I was only trying to show it in a different light and possibly give you ease.

Thanks.

Just my opinion...unwelcome, unwanted, or upsetting...just an opinion through teeth that have been clenched for far too long.

36. thoughtful - 10/17/2001 6:11:16 PM

Jen, that's hardly likely as the printing process is so tightly secured because it's money. Lots of security and difficult to break.

37. aunaturel - 10/17/2001 7:28:31 PM

"Nobody would have thought to commit an atrocity like that unless they'd seen it in a movie"

What an f***ing idiot...

38. aunaturel - 10/17/2001 7:30:58 PM

"I wonder if the terrorists could create a poison that could be mixed with the ink on our currency."

Ever read "The White Plague"?

39. joezan - 10/17/2001 9:37:06 PM

The purpose of this thread is not to have fun, per se. I was quite serious in suggesting this thread - although it is nice to be able to have fun even when discussing something as serious as this. It is, imo, those who can't do so who are doomed. I say that most sincerely - as one whose recently commissioned little brother will be leaving shortly for parts unknown, but whose speciality - flight bomb technician - virtually guarantees he will be going to the ME.

However - I realize the thread heading is a little over-the-top. If the purpose of the thread was to have fun, I would simply leave the heading as is. I had thought that the introductory post would suffice to disabuse anyone of that notion, but I see I was wrong.

My bad.

40. joezan - 10/17/2001 10:18:42 PM

OO-K joe, let's say someone attacks your mother in the middle of the night and rapes her mercilessly for hours... Let's have fun with this joe...let's see how much better someone could rape your sister...or daughter...or you.

Your sexual fantasies cannot be counted as terrorism, labbie. Let's try to stay on topic, ok snookums?

41. joezan - 10/17/2001 10:37:46 PM

The height of Bay Area rush hour. Four boat-bombs - each packing roughly the force of the OKC or '93 WTC bombs, and steered at top speed into the main pylons of the Golden Gate Bridge.

42. Cellar Door - 10/17/2001 10:39:38 PM

Gore Vidal

43. joezan - 10/17/2001 10:45:27 PM

The best America can do, Vidal believes, is retreat. He believes that "elements south of the Russian border" are "susceptible to religious
mania", and it "might be just as well that we are forewarned, and never provocative. Do not provoke. That's the message I really have to say about US policy.

The pussy on the mountain has spoken.

Now he can go back to drinking himself into oblivion.

44. Cellar Door - 10/17/2001 10:58:40 PM

sez you.

45. amax - 10/18/2001 2:31:29 PM

Here's a 'sicko' terrorist attack scenario that I played with the day after the attacks:

Commercial/Transport Airlines:
examples: Fedex, UPS, livestock air transport companies etc.

T objective: infiltrate a team on board the aircraft that remains unreported until after takeoff. Control plane sometime after liftoff.

Methods:
I can imagine several weaknesses that could be exploited to achieve the objective. Pick UPS as an example. Packages are loaded into Air shipping containters at a central loading facility. T's bribe/subvert/highjack/replace UPS truck on its way from the loading facility to the airport, swap in a loading container that is 'loaded' with the T strike team. Ground crew fooled/bribed/infiltrated at airport loads the team container along with the rest. T strike team is equipped with appropriate equipment to cut through their own container and any others between them and the cockpit (if that is necessary). Bonus for this type of op is that team has no or few limitations on the equipment and/or weapons it can bring along.

Weaknesses (from the T's point of view): Security procedures involved w/transport co's not well known or easy to discover, hasn't been done before and therefore risks are unknown, no hostages while in sky therefore very limited time to aircraft destruction after course change, radio silence (can be mitigated by deception)

46. RustlerPike - 10/18/2001 3:30:11 PM

I think eventually maybe this thread should transmogrifuke itself into something called the Prophecy Thread, because this war situation is turning us all into third rate prophets, and we may as well have somewhere to deposit our predictions so we can check out how good they were, in the future.

I predict I will try to go to sleep now.

47. PelleNilsson - 10/18/2001 3:48:26 PM

In the current situation I don't think terrorists have to send anthrax letters to create fear. They could send notes saying "This letter could have contained anthrax".

48. CalGal - 10/18/2001 3:58:30 PM

Joe,

I worry about that one, but I don't think four boat bombs would do it. It's a good idea, though.

49. Jenerator - 10/18/2001 4:22:46 PM

AuNatural,

What's The White Plagueabout? I looked up on amazon and saw that it dealt with tuberculosis...

50. rubberducky - 10/18/2001 4:26:30 PM

51. CalGal - 10/18/2001 4:31:14 PM

No, you wanted the first book, the one by Frank Herbert. It was about an angry scientist whose wife was killed in an IRA bombing so he developed a plague that killed only women.

52. Åse - 10/18/2001 4:33:56 PM

But it was carried and transmitted by men.

53. CalGal - 10/18/2001 4:38:47 PM

Was it? It's been a zillion years since I read it--I thought it was on money, or something.

I remember that the end disgusted me--the main character was talking to his wife, who he'd spirited away to be safe, and she was babbling on about how she now has five husbands, but not to worry, he'll always be her favorite.

54. amax - 10/18/2001 4:45:27 PM

Dunno if the boat bomb thing would work. I don't think you could apply much cutting force against those pylons w/even a very large charge using that method. You might be able to destabilize the bedrock enough to loosen the pylons somewhat, which combined with the shock pressure would scare the bejeezus out of people on the bridge. But it would not likely give you much in terms of actual casualites for your investment. Even then, I suspect most of the blast would be directed upwards through the lesser resistance of the air, not downward through the water. Doable, I guess, but wer're talking about an Exxon Valdez's worth of explosive to really do much more than sway the span, IM (amateur) Opinion.

55. CalGal - 10/18/2001 4:56:28 PM

Destroying the GG Bridge would have market value far beyond the casualties, especially if they did the same to the Bay and San Mateo bridges. I agree that I don't see how the explosives could destroy the pylons, but then who thought that fire could melt the WTC? If they investigate and find the right way to do it, bridges are an easy target. The GG bridge was/maybe is closed to pedestrians, but I don't think they are monitoring the pylons.

56. janjon - 10/18/2001 4:59:02 PM

of course they're monitoring the pylons. On the Brooklyn Bridge too. Verezano Narrows - natch.

The Manhattan and Williamsburg and Queensboro - who knows. Piles of shit, but quite useful.

57. CalGal - 10/18/2001 5:04:56 PM

Monitoring them how? If they aren't allowing motor or sail boats underneath the bridges, someone would have mentioned it. If SF has Coast Guard boats on 24 hour watches monitoring the pylons, I've missed that, too. So you are saying that boats aren't allowed under the bridges in any state at any time any more?

58. PelleNilsson - 10/18/2001 5:05:02 PM

I don't see how the explosives could destroy the pylons

Why go for the pylons? Fly an airplane into the thing.

59. CalGal - 10/18/2001 5:06:49 PM

A small plane wouldn't do enough damage, and hijacking a large plane will be more difficult these days. Also, flying it into the bridge might be difficult--from what I understand, they didn't do the White House because it was tough to spot. It might be easy to see a bridge, but it would also be easier to miss. I think the best shot would be counter-intuitive--line up as if you were planning to land on the bridge, and take it out that way.

60. Jenerator - 10/18/2001 5:08:41 PM

A large bridge isn't hard to miss.

61. janjon - 10/18/2001 5:09:19 PM

no, not saying that at all. Indeed, all sorts of things - including oil barges!!!! - continue to go up and down the East River. I do know, in part by empirically seeing them, that there are police cars parked in strategic places (including in the underpasses under the U.N.) So, if the game is to plant some explosives, in theory at least, our men and women in blue will see what is going on and get on the horn fast. As for someone who decides to ram a barge into a pylon, well that is another scenario.

In other words, we've got increased scrutiny but who in hell knows how effective it would be.

62. Jenerator - 10/18/2001 5:10:11 PM

wait. a large bridge is an easy target.

63. CalGal - 10/18/2001 5:11:06 PM

As for someone who decides to ram a barge into a pylon, well that is another scenario.


That was the proposed scenario. Since there is no way to anticipate a boat attack without inconveniencing people, it has been decided to ignore it. Hopefully, pylons are tough.

64. CalGal - 10/18/2001 5:12:43 PM

Remember, the whole point of the thread is to find the loopholes and exploit them. So obviously, we weren't referring to people walking onto a bridge to plant explosives.

Jen,

For a skilled pilot, undoubtedly. For ones that couldn't manage to master takeoffs and landing, I wouldn't be tossing around "easy" so lightly.

65. janjon - 10/18/2001 5:21:12 PM

I wasn't really thinking of scenarios or loopholes. I was just musing over the fact that there are barges out there full of oil or gas.

Real life, as we speak. So to speak.

66. Erin R. - 10/18/2001 5:24:14 PM

Question: how do we protect ourselves from grocery store attacks? It seems it would be exceedingly easy to walk into a grocery store with bombs strapped to oneself.

Or as the Tom Clancy book I'm reading now supposes, filling a few aerosol cans with Ebola and venting them in a few large convention centers.

67. Åse - 10/18/2001 6:26:04 PM

>Was it? It's been a zillion years since I read it--I thought it was on money, or something.

Yes, it was part of the diabolical stuff of the revenge. (The guys being the carriers that is)

68. Ms. No - 10/18/2001 6:57:48 PM

Erin,

The Ebola virus isn't transmittable to humans that way ---only through bodily secretions. It's still highly contagious but you have to get close to the infected person or his fluids to get it.

Another problem might be finding the virus at all. Scientists still don't know where it comes from but suspect that it's carried by some animal indigenous to the areas in Africa where the virus occurs. I suppose it wouldn't be all that difficult to obtain an infected person or contaminated waste, but you'd have to act fast to effectively spread the disease with a single carrier.

69. CalGal - 10/18/2001 7:26:20 PM

The terrorists would have to infect themselves with the virus and then wander around a mall breathing on people for the few days before they died. Ideally, they would arrange it so they died outside the observation of a hospital and their bodies were found after decomposition.

Hey, that's it. They would wander around a mall for as long as they could, then return to base camp where they would infect the next terrorist. Once the next one was infected, the first terrorist would be shot and buried and the cycle would start again.

Main problem would be, as MsNo said, finding the virus to be infected with.

70. arkymalarky - 10/18/2001 8:09:58 PM

What about the sores? How long is someone infectious before sores appear?

71. CalGal - 10/18/2001 9:28:59 PM

With Ebola? I dunno, but I do know that you are contagious and look like you have to flu for some period of time before you get too bad. Hours, not days, though. I'll look.

72. arkymalarky - 10/18/2001 9:34:47 PM

Sorry, I meant smallpox.

73. CalGal - 10/18/2001 9:35:01 PM

Can't find any link that discusses when you're infectious specifically--incubation period is 2-21 days, apparently, and you are contagious so long as the virus is in your body. Men can pass it on through sperm for 7 weeks after recovery.

74. arkymalarky - 10/18/2001 9:36:38 PM

Oooh, that's creepy.

75. Snowowl - 10/18/2001 9:49:27 PM

Arky,

According to this site, transmission of smallpox is only possible once the rash has appeared.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no4/henderson.htm

76. CalGal - 10/18/2001 10:19:56 PM

Wait, I was talking of Ebola--I hadn't seen your follow up post, Arky.

What is the fatality rate of smallpox?

77. joezan - 10/18/2001 10:26:18 PM

I was discussing smallpox with our Dr. today. Didn't ask about fatality rate, but I was a bit disappointed (though not real surprised) when he told me the vaccination I received 30-some-odd years ago in elementary school is useless now.

78. Åse - 10/18/2001 10:31:52 PM

very high. there's one variant where at least a sizable proportion lives (something in the order of half i think) and one that is amazingly lethal. They linked pages some weeks back in mwt, but i didn't bookmark. Makes perfect sense to guve a vaccine that actually makes you feel yucky routinely, and has a considerable risk. It is way better than the disease.

79. joezan - 10/18/2001 10:35:10 PM

Well, I remember it hurting like all hell, and I still have the damn scar -you'd think you'd get something a bit more permanent for all that.

80. CalGal - 10/18/2001 10:36:20 PM

Given that "experts" scoffed over anthrax at the same time they told us there was no need to get vaccinated for small pox, I'm thinking it's worth re-examining the whole vaccine thing.

What is the vaccine that is liquid?

81. Snowowl - 10/18/2001 10:36:55 PM

Cal,

It's a bit hard to tell. The stuff I've read isn't all that clear, but it appears that it's fatal in about 30% of cases. The "good" news is that vaccination after exposure is effective in preventing the disease, in fact vaccination as long as 4-5 days after exposure is still effective in preventing death from the disease, although the illness might still occur.

82. CalGal - 10/18/2001 10:37:32 PM

I could swear I had it more than once, but it shouldn't matter, it's still expired. Mine hurt, too.

83. Snowowl - 10/18/2001 10:38:02 PM

At the moment you can't get vaccinated. Since the disease was erradicated there aren't sufficient stocks of the stuff.

84. CalGal - 10/18/2001 10:41:05 PM

Smallpox as Bioterrorism

Yep, Snow, it's about 30%. Given that Ebola is far higher (over 50%), why aren't people as worried about it? Is it harder to spread?

Not that I wish to be dismissive of something like this:

An aerosol release of smallpox virus would disseminate readily given its considerable stability in aerosol form and epidemiological evidence suggesting the infectious dose is very small. Even as few as 50-100 cases would likely generate widespread concern or panic and a need to invoke large-scale, perhaps national emergency control measures.

Several factors fuel the concern: the disease has historically been feared as one of the most serious of all pestilential diseases; it is physically disfiguring; it bears a 30 percent case-fatality rate; there is no treatment; it is communicable from person to person; and no one in the U.S. has been vaccinated during the past 25 years. Vaccination ceased in this country in 1972, and vaccination immunity acquired before that time has undoubtedly waned.

85. Åse - 10/18/2001 10:41:50 PM

I think my first one didn't take. I got a second around 6. Didn't get very ill. But, I had earlier friends that did.

86. CalGal - 10/18/2001 10:42:19 PM

Snow, there was a report that our HHS has ordered up vaccine, but I don't think it will be ready until next year. I'm not sure that it will be enough, either.

87. joezan - 10/18/2001 10:57:31 PM

Oh - and the doc also claimed the "real" reason smallbox vaccinations were stopped was that 30,000 people (130,000 maybe?) a year got seriously ill from it.

88. CalGal - 10/18/2001 11:01:49 PM

That is the reason, as I understood it. The live vaccine was more effective, but more dangerous. I don't know if the amount is right, but at a certain point the vaccine was more dangerous than the risk of acquiring smallpox.

89. joezan - 10/18/2001 11:07:41 PM

I'd always heard the reason it was stopped was that it was effectively eradicated - but I guess either way, both statements are "true".

90. Snowowl - 10/18/2001 11:10:28 PM

Was smallpox vaccination routine in the US?

91. joezan - 10/18/2001 11:13:39 PM

Required, I think.

92. CalGal - 10/18/2001 11:15:18 PM

Joe,

It was effectively eradicated. But that's never stopped inertia before.

Snow,

I think so; it's hard for me to know because my immunizations were based on Saudi requirements.

93. Absensia - 10/18/2001 11:23:38 PM

Snow it was routine when I was young. I got mine when I was about 6. It "took" if it left a big scab and later left a scar about anywhere from 1/8th" and up in diameter.

We also had polio shots and TB vaccinations (or shots.) Measles shots that were "iffy" but didn't cover "German" or hard measles. Unlike later generations we didn't have to have distemper and rabies.

94. Snowowl - 10/18/2001 11:32:03 PM

That explains the froth around your mouth then, Abs.

I was curious as it was not routine here, and in fact the only people who received a smallpox vacc were those intending to travel overseas.

95. Absensia - 10/18/2001 11:36:54 PM

Oops, think with polio it was taken orally.

Well Snow, vampires are said to be immune to smallpox.

96. amax - 10/18/2001 11:48:16 PM

I got one around 1981 - almost 10 years after it had been officially eradicated. Nothing like the old Military SOP.

97. CalGal - 10/19/2001 12:12:55 AM

Yes, polio is the one that is taken orally. It's live too, isn't it?

Smallpox vaccines didn't stop in the states until 83 or so, I think.

98. Absensia - 10/19/2001 12:20:29 AM

Polio can be live or dead. Not sure how the "dead" one works, but I had a friend with MS who was travellling to South American and had to have polio vaccinations and had to make sure, because of the MS, that she was given the "dead" vaccine.

99. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 12:28:23 AM

If I were a fundamentalist Muslim Saudi billionaire who wanted to free the world of the hold of the evil USA I would:

* create the 'Al Qaeda Foundation' which would carry out and publish extensive studies on the suffering and exploitation of inner-city residents in the USA, on the emptiness and moral decrepitude of life in suburbia, on the incestuous backwardness of life in Appalachia, on the way the US became the world's beacon in the fields of advanced and creative drug abuse, abortion, divorce and family dysfunction, pornography and crime. I would also (being a fundamentalist Muslim) publish studies and essays on the subjects of homosexuality, marital infidelity, promiscuousness, and the way these were promoted by American press publications and other media.

* create a movement called 'Familism' (www.familism.org) which would collect and publicise horror stories about the suffering of children whose parents fought all day, every day, for 20 years, because social norms like 'equality' abolished the old roles and did not properly define new ones, thus creating inevitable tension and competition between fathers and mothers; of children whose parents divorced each other, and then had their father taken away from them and humiliated and turned into a remote-controlled human ATM and driven to suicide, etc. The stories would, of course, be calculated to show that American feminism had created as many problems as it had solved, or set out to solve.

* set up my own cable TV network in which fundies from all faiths got together and bitched about the immorality of American life.

>>>

100. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 12:32:51 AM

>>>

* create housing for Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, and the Territories and encourage a peace deal between the Arab world and Israel, but stipulate that Israel agree to take visible, effective measures against pornography, humiliation of fathers, child abuse through divorce, drug abuse, promiscuousness, empty greed, violent crime etc. In this way I would -through Israel - make all Westerners look themselves in the mirror and mend their ways.

* join with Greenpeace and other environmentalist groups in fighting the trashing and pollution of the earth by Western conglomerates (and send anthrax letters to any Saudis who were connected with such conglomerates).

101. CalGal - 10/19/2001 12:36:32 AM

What The Terrorists Might Be Doing

Apparently enough young, mid-eastern men are wandering around videotaping things that the FBI is checking it out. So if you happen to see anything like that, check it out. I'm not sure how much of the rest of Peggy's dramatics I buy, but be on the lookout for the videotapers.

102. CalGal - 10/19/2001 12:50:19 AM

RP, your warped world view is interfering with your logic. The world has been seeing America's warts, as you describe them, and that hasn't stopped that world from coming to our door in droves. No Saudi billionaire was needed--we made the movies ourselves, and then made billions as the world bought them.

And the appeal of the lands where men are men, women are slaves, and floors are impromptu elevators? How many people are buying your culture, running to your country (for other than religious reasons), following your lead? Hell, your country is more savage and backwards now than it was 20 years ago, thanks to the nasty environment and antiquated views you subscribe to.

It's all very well to sneer at our culture, RP, so long as you remember that your son watches our sleazy TV shows (with your permission, I might add) and knows everything about us, and my son thinks of Israel as a place in the desert with shit awful building codes.

103. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 7:57:56 AM

Cal:

You are paranoid. This is the WWTD thread. I was trying to show that one can be a fundie hater of America and fight against its supposed evils -real or not - and still not kill people (except for that anthrax touch wrt Saudi businessmen).

104. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 8:04:07 AM

Hell, your country is more savage and backwards now than it was 20 years ago, thanks to the nasty environment and antiquated views you subscribe to.

Huh?

It's all very well to sneer at our culture, RP, so long as you remember that your son watches our sleazy TV shows (with your permission, I might add) and knows everything about us, and my son thinks of Israel as a place in the desert with shit awful building codes.

Most of your better (and worse) movies and TV shows (including Love and Marriage, I think) are made by Jews, and while we may have shitty building codes, we are pretty good at all kinds of other codes - like the kind that go into building the internet.

105. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 8:15:09 AM

Also, CalGal, our Prime Minister doesn't go to a synagogue every week and pray to the memory of an American who lived 2000 years ago.

Looks like you're back with a vengeance, eh? How many Moties do you plan to blow out of here this season with your boundless aggressiveness? Why do you insist on bringing my child into every bit of criticism you have for me, O spawner of Spawn?

Btw - how was Spawn spawned? Was there a spawn donor, or what?

106. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 8:17:45 AM

Really, CalGal, you are a gross woman.

107. Erin R. - 10/19/2001 10:35:32 AM

My husband knows an Iraqi expatriate who lives in the US with his wife. Their visas are about to expire, and now all of a sudden, they are throwing themselves at my husband via e-mail in order to get him to sponsor them for visas.

I told him in no uncertain terms that he was *not* to have anything to do with these folks. They are probably harmless, but I don't want to be interviewed by the FBI months from now after the next attack...

108. Jenerator - 10/19/2001 10:43:15 AM

Israel definitely has better airport security.

109. joezan - 10/19/2001 11:53:56 PM

I've heard at least twice today that it is now believed these anthrax incidents could very well be the work of a lone germ-man, a la the Unabomber.

Am I an idiot, or does anyone else believe that it would have to be about a 1-in-10 billion chance that the first reported cases just happened to coincidentally turn up a few miles from where several of the perpetrators lived?

110. RustlerPike - 10/19/2001 11:55:43 PM

Jozejan:

the work of a lone germ-man

Could be a frenchman or a belgian too. No need to blame the krauts for everything you know.

111. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:00:22 AM

Speaking of Belgium, didn't I just hear yesterday that they have condemned our post-9/11 actions?

112. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:09:59 AM

They didn't condemn them, I believe they merely voiced concern as to whether further military action was going to be targeted or not.

113. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:10:43 AM

Belgium is coincidently in a pivotal position right now in the EU and is not, believe me, not, going to rock that particular boat on its own hook.

114. arkymalarky - 10/20/2001 12:11:02 AM

Belgians have pilots in the NATO planes that have been flying over the US, and the French have offered troops to Afghanistan.

115. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:12:30 AM

I could almost swear what I'd heard was a bit more strongly worded than that.

116. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:14:19 AM

They're more concerned with Britian in any case than they are with us, for reasons that are more or less peculiar to the politics of Europe and the EU and Tony Blair's outspoken manner in the last month.

117. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:16:44 AM

Britain.

You might be thinking of the fact that a Belgian minister attacked Blair's statements. But the last I checked, Tony Blair was a Brit.

118. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:19:38 AM

Yes, the French. That really, really surprises the hell out of me, they're about the Last European nation I would expect to come and fight alongside us, but they have more or less explicitly said that they are going to send their special forces in with ours.

119. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:20:14 AM

Eh - could be.

Still though, Blair may be Brit, but the Brits are included in "us" in this fight.

120. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:21:53 AM

...except for Elton John. I don't care if he does live in Atlanta - he ain't "us".

121. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:23:32 AM

Even so, we are faced with the fact that you mentioned 'our' post-9/11 actions and Michel attacked Blair over a speech.


I mean, really. It's fucking Belgium, man. They aren't gonna go condemning us.

122. arkymalarky - 10/20/2001 12:33:46 AM

Elton John lives in Atlanta? Cool!

123. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:37:24 AM

I should say here that it's a real oversimplification to say that the Brits are really on our team here. They're playing ball with us and supporting us but Tony Blair's public line is not at all synonymous with Bush's.

124. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:39:35 AM

Cool????!!!

Have you listened to Elton's stuff the past, oh, 25 years or so?

125. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:42:42 AM

His muse left him in 1976, and has never returned - not even for a short visit.

126. arkymalarky - 10/20/2001 12:48:08 AM

Oh, he's a drip, but it's still cool.

I absolutely agree with you. Tumbleweed Connection is divine, and through Yellowbrick Road has great stuff, and after "Don't Let the Sun..." I haven't been able to listen to him.

WRT the Brits, I think they've been very supportive, even to the point Blair has done some great diplomatic work with other countries on our behalf.

127. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:51:42 AM

Is "Don't Let the Sun..." on Tumbleweed, or Brown Dirt Cowboy?

128. arkymalarky - 10/20/2001 12:56:55 AM

It's post-Yellowbrick Road, but that's all I know.


Too stay on topic, if I were a terrorist, I'd find a way to pipe in "Island Girl," played nonstop, everywhere in the nation--no escape. Knees would buckle within hours.

129. arkymalarky - 10/20/2001 12:57:28 AM

To....

130. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:58:28 AM

You know, when I was fourteen, I had to pretend to like Elton John in order to hook up with this girl that was crazy about him? I have had a profound dislike of that sparkly little runt ever since.

131. joezan - 10/20/2001 12:58:43 AM

Hey - it worked with El Pina Noriega.

132. angel-five - 10/20/2001 12:58:55 AM

She would sit at the piano and do his stuff.

133. joezan - 10/20/2001 1:00:11 AM

Eeew.

That would've been mid-80's, right?

You've known some pretty sick chicks.

134. arkymalarky - 10/20/2001 1:06:25 AM

The great thing about TWC is that it's pre-glitter and outrageous glasses--very natural and good music. Funny, I liked a boy when I was fourteen who was the same way--right when YBR came out. If I'd realized he was probably gay I could have saved myself a good amount of time and frustration.

135. angel-five - 10/20/2001 1:08:00 AM

Zan, you have no idea, bro. None.

136. jexster - 10/20/2001 9:03:51 AM

No JoeZ thinks he's Ethel Merman

137. jexster - 10/20/2001 9:05:04 AM

Optimists v. Pessimists Look at Future of this "War"

ile there have been congressional hearings about the safety of the water supply, observes John Pike of GlobalSecurity.org, "Have they had any hearings about food court security?"

138. jexster - 10/20/2001 9:10:56 AM

GlobalSecurity.org

Great Site JoeZ...satellite pics of targets among other things!

139. joezan - 10/20/2001 10:10:41 AM

Thanx, jex.

Just added it.

140. jexster - 10/20/2001 10:23:36 AM

A Plan For World Domination!
1) Take control of Lichtenstein. This is relatively easy when you consider the fact that Lichtenstein has no real standing army, and you may subdue the entire country by walking into the pub with a shotgun.

2) Raise an army. Hire mercenary forces with the money you take from Lichtenstein, which is known for banking and holding Nazi money. The postage stamp industry there can't hurt either.

3) Take Switzerland. This is easy easy easy. Switzerland is known for their neutrality, and their army consists entirely of long haired hippies who sit around and smoke pot all day.

4) Raise a bigger army. Take the money you plunder out of the Swiss bank accounts and hire a gigantic military force, and lots and lots of German flags.

5) Invade France. Why did we buy those German flags? The answer is obvious to anyone with a basic grasp of French history in the 20th century. Every time a German flag has crossed the French border, all of France immediately surrenders. (You can imagine the embarrasment that some German tourists have felt upon recieving a written surrender note while vacationing in France)

6) The Force du Frappe!! The Force du Frappe, which translates to "The Force of Whooping" according to Sparky, is France's nuclear arsenal. You build a giant bunker under the ground to protect yourself from retaliatory attacks, then have a conversation with the United States that goes something like this:

Me: Give me control of your country or I'll blow you to hell.

US: We'll nuke France too

Me: Go ahead, like a give 2 shits about these French sissies

US: Okay, we just don't wanna die, take our country

Me: Why thank you.
7) China: Repeat above, only this time France will actually be nuked to high hell, but so will China, the only remaining threat to your power

8) RULE THE WORLD!!!!

141. angel-five - 10/20/2001 11:25:48 PM

(You can imagine the embarrasment
that some German tourists have felt upon recieving a written surrender
note while vacationing in France)

That's a good one.

142. jexster - 10/22/2001 9:36:02 PM

Sen Kennedy's $8 Billion Bio-terror Bill Set for Passage

I WANT MY NMD!

143. sakonige - 10/22/2001 9:57:38 PM

Where are all the nightmare terrorist scenarios? Is bombing people as creative as this bunch of war mongers on the Mote gets?

144. sakonige - 10/22/2001 10:00:45 PM

Try this one: Smallpox virus on a thousand $5 bills distributed through food vendors at major airports. Presto. Collapse of American society within weeks.

145. don s. - 10/23/2001 12:07:02 PM

Anyone who eats airport food deserves his or her fate.

146. sakonige - 10/23/2001 1:25:15 PM

UN's smallpox terror alert

Governments around the world have been warned to prepare against a terrorist smallpox attack which could kill millions. The World Health Organisation has told them to ensure they can produce enough vaccine to protect their population against the disease, and is preparing to order mass precautionary vaccination of all citizens.

'The unthinkable is no longer unthinkable and we need to prepare for that,' said a spokesperson for the WHO, the United Nations' health agency. 'There has been a lot of concern about a smallpox outbreak. The numbers it would kill are scary.'

...

After its eradication, the smallpox virus was kept in only two laboratories in the world - in Atlanta in the US, and Koltsovo in Siberia. The last two samples were due to be destroyed next year. However, a Soviet defector revealed that the dying Communist regime used smallpox in a missile programme.

There have also been allegations that supplies were sold to Iraq and North Korea.

147. sakonige - 10/23/2001 1:30:55 PM

I do get the feeling people like JoeZan are not going to enjoy this war as much as they thought they would.

148. Jenerator - 10/23/2001 3:33:32 PM

Sakonige,

In Message # 34 I said I wonder if the terrorists could create a poison that could be mixed with the ink on our currency.

I, too, think that contaminating our money would be the quickest way to sicken the masses.

I hope to God that it never happens.

149. amax - 10/23/2001 3:40:49 PM

I'm pretty sceptical about wrt the biological capabilities of the T's. However, the following conspiracy theory is just too romantic not to post:

Paranoia

150. judithathome - 10/23/2001 3:50:59 PM

Experimental Nuclear Physicist

Former National Security Agency Instructor

Wonder how many experiments this guy participated in and where he is now?

FACT: that site was a tad loony.

151. CalGal - 10/23/2001 3:56:49 PM

Is Michigan a terrorist stronghold?

THE MICHIGAN STATE POLICE submitted the “Three-Year Statewide Domestic Preparedness Strategy” report to the U.S. Justice Department earlier this month, to help support a request for federal funds to fight terrorism in Michigan. A police spokesman says the report “was not intended for public distribution.”
Almost every major terrorist organization has operatives in Michigan, according to the report. Citing information received from the Detroit office of the FBI, the report says “most of the 28 international terrorist groups recently identified by the State Department… are represented in Michigan. Examples include such well-known terrorist organizations as Hizballah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Egyptian Brotherhood, Al-Gama’at, Al-Islamiyya, and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist organization—Al Qaeda.” The Detroit office of the FBI declines to comment on the report, which it has not yet reviewed, says a spokeswoman.

So maybe they're planning on bombing the GM plants?

152. sakonige - 10/23/2001 4:39:19 PM

Jenerator, I don't think you are going to enjoy this war as much as you thought you would.

153. Jenerator - 10/23/2001 6:05:30 PM

Enjoy?

The only thing I'll enjoy is when and if any terrorists and future terrorists are executed or imprisoned.

154. labwabbit - 10/23/2001 6:08:29 PM

I don't think ...

I don't think...

155. Snowowl - 10/23/2001 6:10:16 PM

What is a future terrorist?

156. labwabbit - 10/23/2001 6:12:07 PM

...someone you execute on the stock market?

157. Snowowl - 10/23/2001 6:13:35 PM

LOL!

158. don s. - 10/23/2001 6:23:44 PM

amax, from the page you linked, follow the first link to one of the artist's websites. Then, view his guestbook. One of the entries, which dates from over a year ago, is from "concerned."

!!!!!

The plot thickens!

159. Ms. No - 10/23/2001 7:02:40 PM

The plot was revealed years ago by Dino Ignacio at Fractal Cow.

Look closely at this picture from the site Amax linked to:



You'll note that the enhanced image clearly shows that Bert from Sesame Street is behind the terrorist plot to destroy the United States. It's long been known to a secret, select few that Osama Bin Laden is only a front for the pointy-headed yellow Muppet beloved by American children for more than 20 years. Despite candid pictures caught of Bert in less than savory situations, the Muppet has long been able to successfully lead a double life.

Bert is Evil Images



Bert Is Evil Chat


Bert Is Evil Demise

160. Ms. No - 10/23/2001 7:03:20 PM

oops, hit that enter button too soon. hope I didn't screw anything up.

161. Jenerator - 10/23/2001 7:10:56 PM

SnowOwl,

A future terrorist is someone in the Al-Qaeda camps, or someone aspiring to be like Muhammed Omar or Ben Laden or Ramzi Yousef.

162. joezan - 10/23/2001 10:41:21 PM

Last night between innings of the Yankees' whupping of Seattle, I caught some bits of an interview with a terrorist on MSNBC - a would-be suicide bomber sitting in an Israeli prison.

Great insight into exactly who is a "future terrorist" - I kicked myself afterward for not taping it.

Anyway, this guy had strapped a bunch of explosives on, with the intention of blowing up people at an Israeli guard station or something. But the only thing that blew up was the detonator. The guy fainted, and when he woke up in the hospital, he insisted he was in paradise. The Israeli doc finally convinced him otherwise by asking him, Come on - would there be Israelis in heaven?

He was asked about the 72 virgins deal, and he complained that that was all the Americans and Israelis ever asked about. Well, said the interviewer, doesn't it seem strange that everything in heaven is supposed to be pure and holy, and here you are, dying to get there so that you can engage in pleasures of the flesh?

Replied the maniac, That is for Allah - I never concerned myself much with such questions.

(Ay-yi-yi).

The most revealing part, though, was the interview with his family, who were sick over the whole thing, and had nothing good to say about the whole terrorism bit.

He was never like that when he was younger, said his brother. He was religious, and they noticed. That's what they do, you know - as soon as someone shows some enthusiasm, they start ingratiating themselves. And before you know it, he's gone.

(I'm paraphrasing, but all that is pretty close to what was said).

Very weird shit.

163. joezan - 10/24/2001 4:35:23 AM

Cal:

Doesn't surprise me - you got a lot of rats, you're bound to find a lot of rat shit.

164. joezan - 10/24/2001 5:17:59 AM

Sako:

Um, if I remember correctly it was the injuns who suffered most from smallpox, it being an imported disease and all.

I wonder how much of an immunity they have now?

165. sakonige - 10/24/2001 11:32:35 AM

I think the ones living in extremely remote locations would be ok.

166. sakonige - 10/25/2001 12:56:15 PM

It's a farce.


I'm even up for telling you so again, for a couple more predictions, based on current trends.

1) The US will escalate the war to Iraq and at least one other country, within 12 weeks.

2) Anthrax is going to be mass-mailed to private households, and it will cause the US postal system to screech to a halt, also within 12 weeks.

167. don s. - 10/25/2001 3:52:19 PM

Should I be suspicious? I just received a large letter with a picture of a dead Ed McMahon and the a big headline: "You May Already Be Infected!"

Because if this is a terrorist, I'm certainly not going to subscribe to any of the magazines.

168. CalGal - 10/25/2001 6:33:42 PM

Hey Joe, did you see this?

Studies Suggest Lower Count for Number of U.S. Muslims

There are far fewer Muslims in the country, apparently. Which makes the whole Wahhabi number even more nervous making.

169. joezan - 10/25/2001 10:24:57 PM

Eh, I dunno.

Ever since we had that discussion I've been trying to remember where it was I had read that there are 2,000,000 Muslims in the US, and I just remembered - in the Oct. 1 Newsweek.

It's a Zogby study, commissioned by 3 different Arab-American organizations.

Check this out:

 
Mosque affiliation: 
                             1994         2000 
                             __________________ 
Total Number of Mosques       962        1,209 
_______________________________________________ 
Muslims per Mosque            485        1,625 
_______________________________________________ 
Total Affiliated Muslims   500,000    2,000,000 

170. joezan - 10/25/2001 10:35:37 PM

By the way - who was it that proposed shipping containers as a good way to import terror?

Join al-Qaeda - See the World!

ITALIAN police were investigating last night why a suspected al-Qaeda hijacker would smuggle himself halfway around the world locked inside a shipping container with its own bed and toilet.

The bizarre discovery of an Egyptian carrying a Canadian passport was made on the dockside in Gioia Tauro in southern Italy, where detectives believe they may have foiled another hijacking.

They were questioning Rizik Amid Farid, 43, about his choice of travel and why he was carrying airport maps and airside security passes for Canada, Thailand and Egypt.

171. RustlerPike - 10/25/2001 11:34:38 PM

172. joezan - 10/26/2001 7:13:27 AM

Wow!

Last time I saw the guy on the right, he was hanging with Ossama and looking very mean.

Is that whatsername - from Beverly Hills 90210?

173. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 7:31:23 AM

Hey, Joe, you're right. It's the Jewish director's daughter. Tori Spelling?

174. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 7:31:44 AM

I think it's her.

175. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 7:31:44 AM

I think it's her.

Rp,

Your Sesame Street images have been cracking me up. First Grovercise and now the Evil Bert!

179. sakonige - 10/26/2001 12:06:46 PM

Iraq. Saddam. Now there's a target you can get.

Here is a custom made prediction for you, Rustler Pike.

The US will invade Iraq and attempt to overthrow Saddam, but they will find unanticipated obstacles. In the process, a complete meltdown of their coalition will occur, resulting in massive terrorist and military assaults on Israel. Israel will respond with excessive force including nuclear weapons. Then someone from Iraq will use weapons of mass destruction against Israel, and tens of thousands of Israelis will die.

Have a nice war

180. judithathome - 10/26/2001 12:09:23 PM

Ever the ray of sunshine, eh Sako?

181. sakonige - 10/26/2001 12:10:51 PM

J

182. judithathome - 10/26/2001 12:13:17 PM

Hahhaha!! I like that...

183. don s. - 10/26/2001 12:13:26 PM

Well, sure. For sakonige, predicting the deaths of tens of thousands Israelis puts a spring in her step and a song in her heart.

184. judithathome - 10/26/2001 12:14:39 PM

Hey, I keep getting these pop up ads for Tripod when I come in here...is that part of Evil Ernies work?

185. rubberducky - 10/26/2001 12:17:42 PM

it's because of RP's 177, J@H

PE should be slapped for showing RP the trick!

186. judithathome - 10/26/2001 12:18:48 PM

Will it stop after scrolling off the screen?

187. sakonige - 10/26/2001 12:20:23 PM

don s.

I suspect lots of Americans will die in this war, too. Maybe 100 times as many as died in the September 11, attacks.

188. rubberducky - 10/26/2001 12:22:04 PM

Will it stop after scrolling off the screen?

yes

189. don s. - 10/26/2001 12:22:45 PM

I suspect lots of Americans will die in this war, too. Maybe 100 times as many as died in the September 11, attacks.

Well, you must be practically dancing with joy.

190. joezan - 10/26/2001 2:07:04 PM

Holy shit! Check this out.

The trooper is being decontaminated in the emergency room at ORMC. He
had pulled over a black Nissan on the turnpike. The trooper gave the driver
a ticket, the driver laughed and drove off. The trooper was overcome by
some kind of fumes, could not breathe and became disoriented.

The driver and passengers are reportedly two men of Middle Eastern
descent. The car tag is registered in Cape Coral.

191. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 2:15:01 PM

How did sikko do that smiley face?

PS sikko: I agree Iraq will lob chemical warheads at us. I agree thousands of Israelis will die. Tens of thousands - I don't think so.

A few thousand dead in return for finally booting out the Pals and having the US off Saddam - not a very bad deal.

192. joezan - 10/26/2001 2:18:26 PM

My toys.

193. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 2:18:33 PM

Jen:

I Grovercised with my kids. It's great fun.

194. Erin R. - 10/26/2001 2:22:56 PM

I haven't seen that incident mentioned anywhere else in the news.

195. joezan - 10/26/2001 2:28:55 PM

Erin:

Me neither.

That link was from Channel 9 news. Here's one from Channel 2 news, with a chopper photo of the HazMat team on the scene.

196. judithathome - 10/26/2001 2:38:07 PM

Hey...may I post to get that ad off the sreen?

197. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 2:38:20 PM

Joe:

If it was me he'd pulled over, those fumes would've been natural methane.

198. judithathome - 10/26/2001 2:38:39 PM

And while I'm at it, off the screen?

199. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 2:40:42 PM

Sorry about the geocities ad.

200. joezan - 10/26/2001 2:41:05 PM

Pike:

Hmmmnnn...

The article did mention the guys were laughing as they sped off...


(I wouldn't know, but I'm sure ME farts have got to be pretty noxious).

201. RustlerPike - 10/26/2001 3:40:21 PM

Joe:

It's the hummus and tehina.

202. RustlerPike - 10/27/2001 1:59:34 AM

You'll like this, Joe. The Pentagon enlists Hollywood scripters to help it deal with terrorism and asks them - 'WWTD?'

I think I would be worried by this if I were an American. It sounds good at first, but the more I think about it... how can the Hollywood feygelach really help?

Otoh...

203. joezan - 10/27/2001 2:08:51 AM

Man I hate BBC commentators - they're all hyperventilating weinies, you ask me.

But you know, being that all these Hollywood types are Jews, you gotta believe they're gonna do their best to beat the terrorists at they're own game.

204. Jenerator - 10/27/2001 12:33:40 PM

I watched The Insider last night (great movie), and I thought about poison being slipped into the world's major newspapers.

If anthrax was slipped into the pages of the NYtimes, it coud do some serious damage!

205. judithathome - 10/27/2001 12:38:18 PM

Not half as much as a few people infected with small pox walking through a crowded mall or sports event.

206. RustlerPike - 10/27/2001 1:59:17 PM

Like a Boston Red Pox game.

207. joezan - 10/27/2001 3:16:19 PM

(Groan)

208. joezan - 10/28/2001 8:59:19 PM

The Onion
Nation's Grandmas Halt
Production Of Afghan
Blankets
WASHINGTON, DC— In a
show of support for the U.S.,
the nation's grandmas
announced plans Monday to
stop knitting afghan
blankets. "We must do our
part to stand behind our
country," said
spokesgrandma Nettie
Bennett, 87. "Even if it
means my new grandson will
have to sleep with a
store-bought comforter, I will
not make something named
after a place that lets
terrorists run around all
willy-nilly."

209. sakonige - 10/28/2001 11:47:27 PM

Have a nice Thanksgiving and Christmas.

210. don s. - 10/29/2001 11:55:35 AM

And a happy Hannukah and Ramadan.

211. jexster - 10/29/2001 3:25:13 PM

Allahu akbar - A Nuke in a U-Haul

And no NMD won't stop it...

But everyone really knew that now didn't we?

212. Jenerator - 10/29/2001 3:50:13 PM

Sakonige, I hope that you have a nice Thanksgiving and a Merry Christmas, too.

213. zojak quafeth - 10/30/2001 7:48:36 AM

I hear they're in the middle of Buzkashi season. So there probably won't be any attacks until the national champion is declared. We're talking sports after all.

214. jexster - 11/1/2001 11:49:05 AM

Don't Worry America, Help Has Arrived..Get Back to Normal

And he hasn't got a clue!

215. labwabbit - 11/1/2001 2:07:12 PM

"The Nightmare Thread?"







...evidence is mounting.

216. joezan - 11/1/2001 9:31:51 PM

Hey - didn't someone here suggest Bay Area bridges would make a yummy target?

Threat to Calif. bridges reported

217. CalGal - 11/1/2001 9:46:24 PM

I posted that in another thread and on the way home said "Hey, that was Joe's idea!" And I am worried they aren't going to monitor the pylons closely enough.

218. joezan - 11/1/2001 9:54:35 PM

Yeah - now I'm expexcting a knock at my door.

If anyone asks about joezan, tell 'em you know for a fact he's a rabid Muslim hater, ok.

219. Absensia - 11/1/2001 9:59:47 PM

*dialing*

220. Absensia - 11/1/2001 10:00:28 PM

Hmmmm, "joezan," sounds like a foreign name to me.

221. joezan - 11/1/2001 10:04:04 PM

C'mon - compared to what? "Absentia"?

That's the Arab-est moniker *I* ever heard.

222. Absensia - 11/1/2001 10:05:41 PM

That's why it's AbseSia...and it's an obscure Latin name. I haven't wanted to admit it because of the publicity the Mote would get, but I am the Pope.

223. joezan - 11/1/2001 10:06:17 PM

In any case, I don't think there's any way for them to pull somehing off with the bridges being closely monitored.

224. CalGal - 11/1/2001 10:07:18 PM

Unless they are going to scan every car for Arab occupants, I do worry a bit.

225. joezan - 11/1/2001 10:09:03 PM

You type pretty good for a guy who's always looking at his shoes, father.

226. joezan - 11/1/2001 10:13:15 PM

I'd thought of that, too. But I figure these guys will be looking to up the ante, and I don't think you could really do enough damage with a car bomb on a bridge. The cars around it would absorb too much of the impact.

227. CalGal - 11/1/2001 10:14:29 PM

I have been reluctant to admit this, too, but in fact I post under my real name. I am, in fact, Charlotte al'Gal.

Friends call me Charlie.

I have a shoe computer. (Groaning, Charlie)

229. joezan - 11/1/2001 10:19:38 PM

I just checked Drudge, and I swear there's this headline-link:

ROSIE O'DONNELL: 'I LOVE BUSH'...

230. sakonige - 11/1/2001 10:19:57 PM

In any case, I don't think there's any way for them to pull somehing off with the bridges being closely monitored.

People dive in the bay all the time.

231. Absensia - 11/1/2001 10:22:18 PM

Reason number 5658973 not to read the Drudge report.

232. joezan - 11/1/2001 10:38:33 PM

Like I said, I don't think they'll want to use a car bomb. It wouldn't do enough structural damage to even collapse a section of the bridge.

It'd need to be something requiring some planning, with explosives attached to key structural points. Or, as I originally hypothesized, several "boat-bombs" driven into pylons. I don't think either of these could be accomplished while the bridges are being closely monitored.

233. CalGal - 11/1/2001 10:50:30 PM

I'm still worried more about nukes. All they have to do is build a "radiological device", as TNR calls it, "ground up radioactive material entwined with explosives" (can't cut and paste from this browser).

Take five-ten cars in a row, make a monstrous big explosion, everyone comes running and how long before they realize that they were running to ground zero of a radioactive disaster? And the winds at the Golden Gate are powerful--and blow right back into the Bay Area.

234. sakonige - 11/1/2001 10:50:37 PM

The terrorists may have already put the explosives underwater, where they would be difficult to find, and they may also have a plan to hit other targets in the same jurisdictions if excessive police attention happened to be focused on the bridges.

235. sakonige - 11/1/2001 10:53:12 PM

Anyway, we'll see.

236. janjon - 11/2/2001 4:31:21 PM

I must admit I worry about our Holland and Lincoln tunnels. Especially in the age of the suicide "bombers". Doubt very much it would take more than a car trunk full of the right type of explosives to tear a significant hole in one of those tunnels. I have no idea how far below the water bed they are buried, but even if water didn't get in, the damage and disruption to life here would be immense.

237. CalGal - 11/2/2001 4:48:58 PM

I had a scary vision last night. Terrorists could wipe out California's economy with about five "dirty bombs". Three in agricultural areas, two in the major population centers (Bay Area, LA/SD).

238. CalGal - 11/2/2001 4:49:19 PM

And in comparison, the hit to NYC's economy is a temporary blip.

239. Erin R. - 11/2/2001 5:18:35 PM

It would take an awful lot of destruction to take out Dallas. There aren't a lot of bridges. Everything is extremely spread out.

There are few skyscrapers here and no significant American icons. OTOH, the world's largest aviation defense contractor is here.

In contrast, I've often felt in the event of a terrorist strike, that places like Chicago would make more attractive targets, because the downtown is relatively compressed and because of the large manufacturing base.

240. jexster - 11/2/2001 8:27:19 PM

The Taliban Can

241. jexster - 11/2/2001 8:41:52 PM

VIENNA, Nov. 2--The detonation of a crude nuclear device is a clear and present danger from some terrorist groups, including al Qaeda, who would have no qualms about using a weapon of mass destruction, the United Nation's atomic agency heard at a conference here today.

Don't Worry NMD Will Protect You!

242. sakonige - 11/3/2001 12:56:04 AM

Do you think bombing Afghanistan is going to prevent a terrorist from dumping biotoxins into a ventilation system near you?

243. ee - 11/3/2001 1:08:53 AM

SAK:People dive in the bay all the time.

Sorry to dissapoint you but I've never seen anyone diving in the bay. The water clarity is poor so it is doubtful anyone would dive recreational. It is not possible to anchor under the Golden Gate anywhere except very close to shore and I wouldn't want to attempt it. Anyone diving under the bay bridge would be seem really odd.

244. joezan - 11/3/2001 8:53:54 AM

FBI Searches for Ryder Rental Truck Carrying Suspicious Cargo.

BOSTON – The FBI is searching for a rented Ryder truck that sped away from security at the Cambridge Galleria Mall after personnel there found drums and gasoline cans duct taped to the floor and walls.

The FBI is asking law enforcement to stop and detai(n) the driver and van of the rental truck. Officials say the possible license plate number is 4789H7.

The incident occurred around 7 p.m. tonight.

245. sakonige - 11/3/2001 1:29:42 PM

ee

I dated a dive instructor and professional diver when I lived in SF.

246. sakonige - 11/3/2001 1:32:41 PM

I felt guilty about the abalone, but it tasted good.

I also dated a filthy rich Saudi prince a few times. He had a beautiful white Persian cat that travelled around with him. I still have a 24 karat gold necklace he gave me. It looks like a collar made of tiny golden leaves shimmering in the wind.

247. RustlerPike - 11/6/2001 7:00:01 AM

Sikko:

I dated a dive instructor and professional diver when I lived in SF.

Maybe that's why there are no limits to how low you'll go.

248. RustlerPike - 11/6/2001 7:02:36 AM

I think the next Arab terror attack will involve opening the hatches of all the toilets in all the planes over the US at a specified second, dumping tons of raw human shit on people all over the country.

Whoops, sorry. Militant attack.

By people of towel.

249. joezan - 11/6/2001 7:55:45 AM

Remember that suspicious boat seen lurking around the nuke plant near Charleston?

A security guard is attacked at a power plant.

Putnam County Sheriff Stan Farley says, "Someone tried to come on the property." They came from the river side of the John Amos plant. A female security guard spotted one man and chased
him. Then she says he turned and hit her. Farley says, "They were talking some type of foreign language. They got into the boat and took up the river." By the time police got there, only the ripples of the river remained. The men were long gone.

250. sakonige - 11/6/2001 11:56:03 AM

Don't worry about a thing, joezan. No one is going to nuke your family. Why would anyone do that?

251. RustlerPike - 11/6/2001 2:37:14 PM

Joe: what about the highway patrolman who was overcome by fumes and the laughing Aye-rabs in the car? How did that end up?

252. joezan - 11/6/2001 7:54:29 PM

Pike:

Never heard another word about that.

253. labwabbit - 11/8/2001 12:52:43 PM

The Saudi Ambassador to the U.N. has just finished giving a speech, and walks out into the lobby where he meets his American counterpart. They shake hands and as they walk the Saudi says,
"You know, I have just one question about what I have seen in America"
The American says, "Well your Excellency, anything I can do to help you I will do."
The Saudi whispers, "My son watches this show 'Star Trek' and init there are Russians, Hispanics, Blacks and Asians, but never any
Arabs.
He is very upset. He doesn't understand why there are never any Arabs in Star Trek."
The American laughs and leans over. "That's because it takes place in the future."

254. Jenerator - 11/8/2001 3:51:51 PM

Where'd you meet the Saudi prince Sakonige?

A Greek friend of mine met someone from Saudi also nicknamed "the General", and he had a harem of women. He called his friend in full headress "the King", and they both thought that my black haired and olive complexioned friend was a beauty. He wanted to treat her to a shopping spree at Korshaks of Dallas, but she declined. I have a feeling that he probably thought that two American females sitting at a bar at the Crescent Court were call girls.

Yikes!

255. joezan - 11/8/2001 8:33:39 PM

Why don't Arabs have sex ed and driver's ed on the same day?










Because the camels just can't take it....

256. arkymalarky - 11/16/2001 7:59:29 PM

OK, y'all tell me what you think of my anthrax theory.

Evidently the gvt is beginning to think the perpetrator may be homegrown and they've found another letter, but I've been wondering about it for a while, as I know others have. What I'm wondering about is the Nguyen woman who worked in an ear, nose, and throat hospital. How would she have come into contact with it from where she worked--the stock room or something? I don't remember exactly.

It's made me wonder, though, if a contaminated person may have gotten treatment in that hospital, and didn't fit the profile at the time--maybe even died, since the letter they found addressed to Leahy had the same postdate as the one to Daschle. I'm sure they've gone through the records of that hospital, but I wonder if they have with their current profile in mind.

It still leaves the question of why she alone got it and there were no signs of the contamination at her work, but someone with anthrax symptoms would surely be as likely to go to that hospital as anyone, and may have gotten antibiotics or gone home and be sitting dead in a house in Trenton, for all I know.

Wondering the connection between that woman and whoever sent the letters is just picking at my brain, and an ear, nose, and throat hospital seems like a logical connection.

OK, now y'all come in and show me where all my holes are in that theory.

257. Erin R. - 11/16/2001 8:28:45 PM

There is a Dr. Bashir in DS9.

258. arkymalarky - 11/16/2001 8:53:12 PM

Decoded, that means...?

259. arkymalarky - 11/16/2001 9:13:37 PM

OK, the first post drew so much fire, I'll really step out on a limb now and say I think whoever did it was a right-wing fanatic American and died of anthrax.

260. judithathome - 11/16/2001 9:26:16 PM

That sounds entirely believable, Arky....

261. Erin R. - 11/16/2001 9:28:22 PM

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine=DS9

262. arkymalarky - 11/16/2001 9:32:02 PM

Ah.

Judith, they did arrest three men of Arab descent in Trenton (don't know whether citizens) and searched their apartment, so it may be they have something there. They have a grand jury hearing Dec 20, I just now heard.

263. jexster - 11/25/2001 8:36:00 PM

Santa's beard - anthrax

264. joezan - 11/25/2001 8:47:39 PM

Lovely seasonal thought, jex.

265. Ms. No - 11/29/2001 12:13:23 PM

arky,

Anthrax isn't contagious. She couldn't have gotten it from an infected person unless the person was actually carrying spores on/in something. I suppose they could've been on the infected person's clothes or belongings, but it still wouldn't explain why she was the only person who contracted the disease.

I do agree with you that when/if we find the culprit it'll turn out to be a home-grown fanatic.

266. PelleNilsson - 11/29/2001 1:36:04 PM

If one were a certain kind of person one would now go rummaging in old posts to find out who were absolutely convinced that the anthrax letters were a bin Laden plot and hold them up to ridicule. Luckily one isn't like that but one can't help having a memory.

267. judithathome - 11/29/2001 2:00:37 PM

I'm sure it wouldn't take one long to recall those posts...wait, here comes a chuckle now.

268. arkymalarky - 11/29/2001 5:55:38 PM

MsNo,

I know that. That's why I thought someone who might have gotten exposed enough to have spores on their clothes may have come in for treatment, as opposed to someone who had contracted the disease from one contact with one letter.

269. CalGal - 11/29/2001 6:00:51 PM

I still don't buy the homegrown theory; where is all the evidence that says it is?

It just doesn't seem right for a right wing militia sort.

270. judithathome - 11/29/2001 6:02:35 PM

Well, maybe there's a more sophisticated right wing group who could pull it off.

271. judithathome - 11/29/2001 6:03:03 PM

The John Birch Scientists League or something...

272. CalGal - 11/29/2001 6:04:21 PM

Nothing to do with sophistication. I just don't see them having a grudge against the government right now. This is a joyous time for them, after all. We have a darkskinned enemy, the danger is from the outside, we must expel the invaders, and patriotism is fashionable.

273. judithathome - 11/29/2001 6:05:26 PM

There's always some malcontent out there, even in the best of times...

274. CalGal - 11/29/2001 6:08:47 PM

Sure. So if you have to choose between two possibilities--Islamist terrorism or right wing militants, it seems far more likely to be the former.

Or maybe some other sort of wacko. But militia just doesn't seem likely.

275. concerned - 11/29/2001 6:09:26 PM

259. arkymalarky - 11/17/01 2:13:37 AM

OK, the first post drew so much fire, I'll really step out on a limb now and say I think whoever did it was a right-wing fanatic American and died of anthrax.



260. judithathome - 11/17/01 2:26:16 AM

That sounds entirely believable, Arky....


That's just wishful thinking.

Btw, down with domestic environmental terrorist groups.

276. concerned - 11/29/2001 6:10:26 PM

Also, down with 'animal rights' terrorist groups.












:)

277. concerned - 11/29/2001 6:11:43 PM

I see that Sak lounges around here quite a bit, apparently rather hoping for bad things to happen to the rest of us.

278. judithathome - 11/29/2001 6:13:02 PM

But it doesn't have to be a militia group...I think it's just some whacko loner with an attitude taking advantage of this 9/11 situation to do something he's wanted to do for awhile.

279. CalGal - 11/29/2001 6:16:15 PM

Eh. I dunno. It's not impossible, of course, but I think it's most likely to be a group with a history of using it. The wacko right has a thing for anthrax. So do Islamist terrorists.

280. concerned - 11/29/2001 6:17:04 PM

Re. 278 -

JAH -

Sure, I'll certainly grant that possibility, if not a RW whacko being the most likely perp in this case, IMO.

281. judithathome - 11/29/2001 6:33:56 PM

So do Islamist terrorists.

I'll admit I haven't heard a lot about Islamiist terrorists using it a lot...but I know people here in the states have done so before.

282. CalGal - 11/29/2001 6:39:52 PM

I thought Iraq was one of three governments that create anthrax? Not that Saddam is an Islamic terrorist--he's just a thug terrorist. But that's where they'd get it from.

283. concerned - 11/29/2001 6:43:00 PM

...but I know people here in the states have done so before.

Yes. They're known as medical researchers. The last known case of inhalation anthrax in the US prior to 9/11 was some 24 years ago, I believe.

284. judithathome - 11/29/2001 6:44:05 PM

I thought someone sent anthrax to an abortion clinic a few years ago?

285. arkymalarky - 11/29/2001 6:52:54 PM

They are looking for a fugitive who escaped from the pen and is on the 10 most wanted list--Clayton Lee Waagner--who is responsible for at least half the over 500 abortion clinic anthrax hoaxes since October.

They've also found that the 94 year old woman who died of anthrax had gotten a piece of mail from the same New Jersey post office and the same sorter that four anthrax letters went through. They found no anthrax, but she may have been weak enough to succumb to a much smaller level of exposure than a healthy person.

286. concerned - 11/29/2001 6:57:36 PM

Don't know if anybody has mentioned this before, but it's very suggestive of the limited potential anthrax probably has for causing significant casualties in terrorist attacks that, of the very few people who have caught inhalation anthrax in the US, senior citizens were greatly over represented, apparently because their immune systems were considerably compromised by age.

287. concerned - 11/29/2001 7:01:28 PM

Add to that that the Aum Shinrikyo cult in Japan who was responsible for the 1995 Sarin attack in a Tokyo subway had first apparently experimented with and rejected anthrax because of its lack of actual lethality when dispersed in public venues.

288. Ms. No - 11/29/2001 7:09:57 PM

Cal,

Your argument assumes that anyone who would send Anthrax through the mail is a rational person.

In the first few weeks after the 9/11 attacks there were quite a few people who felt that anyone who didn't actively promote the immediate destruction of Afghanistan and the rest of the Middle East(possibly even by nuclear weapons) was an unpatriotic, lefty peacenik who really ought to just be taken out and shot.

This includes anyone who even said "Let's take the time to make sure we target the right place/people". There were quite a few folks who wanted to be sure of the facts before heading to war and many of them were Democrats----plenty of them were Republicans too, but it isn't in the nature of a nut to acknowledge facts which hurt his argument.

In the perception of someone unhinged enough to send Anthrax-laden letters the Evil Left meant to do nothing in the face of 9/11. To such a person, sending a terrorist attack through the postal system would have the dual purpose of motivating the lefties to get on board with the war while possibly eliminating some of the top brass in the Democratic Party.

There's also the chance that the Anthrax attacks had nothing at all to do with 9/11. There are people in this country who feel themselves completely separate from the rest of American society. Their war against the evils in American government is paramount and it really doesn't matter to them that the rest of the country is united against a foreign enemy. All it means to them is that their target is looking the other direction giving the separatists a chance to strike.

289. concerned - 11/29/2001 7:23:52 PM

"...was an unpatriotic, lefty peacenik who really ought to just be taken out and shot."

As if.

290. CalGal - 11/29/2001 10:35:26 PM

MsNo,

My argument most assuredly does not assume that the people sending anthrax were rational. I am positing either the militant right or Islamist terrorists, neither of whom qualify as rational.

I find it extremely unlikely, albeit possible, that the anthrax mailings aren't related to 9/11 in some way. I also can't find any pattern of citizen hate that would include Rather, Brokaw, Dashchle, Leahy, and the tabloids, whereas I can buy an outsider doing a blanket targeting of the media and Congress.

291. CalGal - 11/29/2001 10:38:41 PM

That said--and while still being unconvinced of the militia connection--I was certainly in error about the wackos sympathies. Turns out that the Muslims are just fellow anti-Semites, even if they are "mud people".

To the Government of Israel: 18 Demands, from the National Alliance website.

1. STOP using American military aid to commit unlawful acts of terrorism, murder, and genocide against Palestinians and others in the territories which Israel illegally occupies.


2. Obey United Nations resolution 242. End occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. End Israeli imperialism!

3. Obey United Nations resolution 194. Allow Palestinians to return to their homes: homes from which Israel drove them illegally over the past fifty-plus years.

4. Stop using torture as a matter of state policy.

5. Stop using assassination and murder as a matter of state policy.

6. Stop acts of terror which deprive Palestinians of their dignity, freedom, property, or lives without as much as the pretense of any due process of law.

7. Stop the institutionalized racism which treats non-Jews born in Israel as second-class citizens while denying them citizenship rights in their native land.

8. Allow true freedom of religion for people of all faiths in Israel.

9. Allow true freedom of speech and assembly for all people in Israel.

292. CalGal - 11/29/2001 10:39:44 PM

10. Stop building illegal settlements in the occupied territories.

11. Return all properties illegally seized in Jerusalem.

12. Recognize the existence of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

13. Allow an international peace-keeping force into Gaza and the West Bank to provide for the protection of innocent Palestinians against acts of Israeli state-sponsored terrorism.

14. Apologize to the people of Lebanon for the acts of war Israel has committed against them for over a quarter century.

15. Compensate the people and government of Lebanon for the results of Israel's acts of war.

16. Turn Ariel Sharon, the 'Butcher of Beirut', over to the World Court so that he may face justice for his war crimes and crimes against humanity.

17. Accept responsibility for Israeli acts of war against the United States of America during Israel's premeditated and unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty in international waters.

18. Accept responsibility for the fact that Israel's terrorist actions against the Palestinians and others are the direct cause of acts of terrorism against the United States!


Lord, it sounds like they took training at Berkeley.

293. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:07:41 PM

"Mud people"?

294. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:10:34 PM

Uh, yeah. You apparently aren't familiar with their terminology.

295. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:13:19 PM

No I'm not. Though some may well have studied at Berkely. From what I've heard, quite a few have masters' and Phds from well known colleges and universities.

296. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:15:58 PM

What does Berkeley have to do with the term "mud people"? I was talking about their 18 demands.

297. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:20:43 PM

Yes, I know...and I thought you'd referred to them as mud people..then listed their demands and mentioned that: "Lord, it sounds like they took training at Berkeley."

I thought you were talking about the same people. You brought up Berkeley. And I was suggesting many have been educated and received post graduate degrees from some good US universities.

So, who are "mud people," exactly?

298. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:25:33 PM

and I thought you'd referred to them as mud people

I referred to no one as mud people. I referred to Muslims as "mud people".

299. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:30:03 PM

Okay...I guess I'm a little groggy. Please indulge me...what does "mud people" mean? When I asked you, you said I apparently wasn't familiar with their terminology.

300. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:30:50 PM

Do you know what the National Alliance is?

301. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:32:48 PM

I have been looking at the National Alliance site, cited supra. I thought it was the Afghanistani National Alliance, but it appears to be a black Muslim sight, right?

302. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:33:57 PM

Maybe I don't...I only thought in terms of, as I said, the National Alliance in Afghanistan.

303. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:36:10 PM

Who is the National Alliance?

While most White Americans and Europeans have lost their racial and cultural moorings and have become mere rootless drifters in a cosmopolitan chaos, our members still know where they came from and what they're a part of. They have not succumbed to the poisonous barrage of egalitarian and "multicultural" propaganda from Hollywood, Washington, and New York. And while others feel beholden only to themselves and refuse to take any responsibility for what is happening around them, each Alliance member sees himself as a link in the endless chain of generations, with an inescapable responsibility to both his forebears and his posterity; he understands that he is responsible for everything that is within his power to change.
...
[One member:]
I joined the National Alliance because I want my children to grow up in a clean, healthy, White world, where they won't be a minority. I want them to go to White schools and live in a White community. I want them to learn White values, not TV values.

304. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:36:42 PM

No, that's the Northern Alliance.

305. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:39:17 PM

Thanks Cal...now I understand. It sounds frightening. David Duke has to be a member.

306. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:41:32 PM

Yes it is. My mind is mush. So much for Christmas shopping AND bill paying on the same day.

307. Absensia - 11/29/2001 11:46:11 PM

They are definitely anti-sematic, but I suspect they don't like Muslims either.

308. joezan - 11/29/2001 11:51:13 PM

Common enemies, Abs.

Look at the IRA and the Lybians.

309. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:52:55 PM

Absensia,

Back 20 or so posts, I said that I didn't think it was a right wing group because this war effort really hit all their sweet spots--we are declaring war against darkskinned people, we are on the alert for harmful aliens within the country, there is a resurgence of patriotism which, coupled with the dislike and suspicion of Arabs, would cause them to think that white America was leading their way.

I then read up on a few groups and found that my assumption was incorrect. It seems that the militia nuts are siding with their fellow anti-Semites, even if they are "mud people". In short, the attacks are all the Jews fault, and America's shortsighted middle east policy is causing us to rain havoc upon poor Afghanistan and supporting Israel's fascist state that denies the Palestinians the basic right to freedom of religion after having robbed them of their native lands.

310. joezan - 11/29/2001 11:55:13 PM

FWIW - I believe the anthrax attacks are from American al-Qaeda operatives.

The whacky right are responsible for the anthrax threats to abortion clinics. If they had any, that is where they'd have sent it.

311. joezan - 11/29/2001 11:55:47 PM

Threats and hoaxes.

312. CalGal - 11/29/2001 11:57:55 PM

Yeah, I still think it's al-Qaeda. ALthough I suppose it could be the militant wackos doing it as a show of support. Still, that would be the equivalent of al Qaeda--it would be Islamist oriented.

313. Absensia - 11/30/2001 12:09:01 AM

Thanks Cal. I remember both discussions...didn't put them together. No doubt because I read "National Alliance" as "Northern" Alliance.

My only question about the anthrax is, if it's al Qaeda, why send the letters to only the media and, seemingly, the democrats? I would think they'd want to hit republicans, especially the right wing ones, big time. It's the liberals who are the softies, right?

314. Absensia - 11/30/2001 12:13:08 AM

I found this interview with Prince Bandar, interesting: "I thought bin laden unable to lead eight ducks across the road." He claims the US is making him a folk hero and giving him more stature than he deserves.

315. Absensia - 11/30/2001 12:13:33 AM

"Him" being bin Laden.

316. Absensia - 11/30/2001 12:15:15 AM

I agree. If it was the anti-abortion people who throw bombs and make threats, they would have just sent the anthrax, not just threatened to do it.

317. CalGal - 11/30/2001 12:19:37 AM

My only question about the anthrax is, if it's al Qaeda, why send the letters to only the media and, seemingly, the democrats?

But if it were the militia wackos and they were targeting Democrats, why Daschle and Leahy? Why not Kennedy, or Hillary Clinton? And why not Peter Jennings, who is the most notoriously "liberal" of the news anchors?

I don't think it was political at all, frankly. But there could be some pattern we haven't seen yet.

318. Absensia - 11/30/2001 12:23:33 AM

True, the reasons and reasonings behind it could be very scary and illogical.

319. CalGal - 11/30/2001 1:17:35 AM

Ha, ha. I love Prince Bandar. To me, he's the quintessential Arab at its finest. Charming, disarming, pursuasive, and undoubtedly untrustworthy.

320. Absensia - 11/30/2001 1:27:25 AM

Hahah, yes indeed. I think you have covered all bases.

321. Ms. No - 11/30/2001 3:42:06 PM

Cal,

I didn't mean you thought them rational in a true sense, but only rational enough to see that "all their sweet spots are being hit."

After reading your post 309 I see that we're on the same page with that.

322. concerned - 11/30/2001 5:35:36 PM

298. CalGal - 11/30/01 4:25:33 AM

and I thought you'd referred to them as mud people

I referred to no one as mud people. I referred to Muslims as "mud people".

Hokay.

323. concerned - 11/30/2001 5:38:25 PM

Re. 317 -

CG may be on to something, for a change. A Muslim individual or group who wants suspicious Lefties to believe that a RWinger sent them. That would serve the purpose too, don't you know.

324. jexster - 12/13/2001 11:51:57 AM

BREAKING NEWS

(AP) Jalabad - The FBI's North Pole confirmed today that Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda terror organization has been sending anthrax laden letters to Santa Claus.

325. jexster - 12/13/2001 11:52:45 AM

errata- "North Pole Field Office"

Stay tuned to your local channels for more information

326. RustlerPike - 12/14/2001 2:07:05 PM

I wonder what that Saudi sheikh was referring to when he spoke of another upcoming attack, to be carried out by the 'great true believers'. Who are these great believers?

327. RustlerPike - 12/14/2001 2:07:54 PM

I mean the guy on the UBL tape.

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