The Mote Archive - War On Terrorism pt. 2

War On Terrorism pt. 2

5001. Property of Jesus - 9/20/2001 10:01:28 PM

equally

5002. labwabbit - 9/20/2001 10:04:45 PM

No. The Israelis would worry that the average American has decided he does not want to die for Israel, and that the U.S. will either force upon Israel a Palestinian state not on the Israelis' terms, or withdraw support from Israel entirely.

The Israelis are not nuts.

No they are not. They're some of the best survivalist thinkers in the world. I'm sure, if they had, it was planned meticulously knowing where each of the "benefactors" in the spotlight now, were at any given time...perhaps even covert funding.

Of course I am not near certain of these possibilities...but one thing I am certain about is that handi-work done by them would, most likely, never be proven.

5003. joezan - 9/20/2001 10:26:28 PM

I don't know what to say other than (a) it's understandable that your sensibilities are offended and (b) I wouldn't be too worried with expressions that are troubling - it's actions you /we need to worry about.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

WHOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEE - BOY!

Is that rich, or what!

5004. Cygnus X-1 - 9/20/2001 10:27:18 PM

I'd say that was a very good speech. It would have been better if he literally said we were gonna open a can of kick-ass, but with sensibilities being what they are, I guess he couldn't. I'm sure janjon would want elaboration on how we would end this. This is how janjon would have us do it:

Precisely by bringing together coherently the different defining characteristics of the biopolitical context that we have described up to this point, and leading them back to the ontology of production, we will be able to identify the new figure of the collective biopolitical body, which may nonetheless remain as contradictory as it is paradoxical.

Right janjon?

5005. vonKreedon - 9/20/2001 10:30:19 PM

That was an excellent speech. Who'd have thought that I'd pulling for George to give a good speech AND that I would then feel reassured and relieved by his speech?

Fascinating times we live in.

I was looking for him to give the project scope for this war and he did a good job. He made clear what would be required of states identified as terror supporting and he made it clear that we are not going to get involved in regional terrorist eradication. He listed the military means last and gave it the only qualifier, "...any military means necessary."

His description of the Taliban/al Queada (to pick a spelling) as "...traitors to Islam..." whose vision for the world can be seen in Taliban controlled Afghanistan was very well done. I appreciated his repeated calls for tolerance and defense of our civil liberties.

Darn good speech.

5006. Cygnus X-1 - 9/20/2001 10:34:59 PM

Yeah, it was a good speech. But, what was with Hillary? Did she have a stomach ache or something? Or, maybe it was her time of the month if she still has those. She didn't look happy.

5007. Phoenix Rising - 9/20/2001 10:39:38 PM

Idiots.

Ronald Reagan set the standard. Every presidential address since has failed to break out of that box.

What I heard: another cabinet level department.

More big gubment.

Doesn't that disturb you Repugs even just a little?

Oh. I forgot. Your cabinet....good.

Our cabinet.....bad.

Phhhhht.

5008. joezan - 9/20/2001 10:40:51 PM

Interesting. Interesting. As has long been pointed out, bin Laden's men do not indulge, almost as a rule, in the kind of behavior that these hijackers allegedly did (strip clubs, drinking, gambling).

Duh.

What the fuck is your point - your agenda, marj? I doubt half these fuckers have ever met ObL, or even been in Afghanistan, let alone enjoyed the lofty status of one of "da Big Binny L posse".

Nowhere, asswipe - NO FUCKING WHERE -has anyone ever suggested that the people carrying out ObL's will are required to adhere to the same strictures he places on himself.

Really. What's your point?

5009. joezan - 9/20/2001 10:43:12 PM

...I mean, wasn't it you, marj, telling Pike just yesterday that you'd read where ObL had already claimed a part in the attack?

So - what the fuck is your agenda?

5010. Al D - 9/20/2001 10:49:09 PM

5007
So much space to say nothing!

5011. Phoenix Rising - 9/20/2001 10:53:28 PM

Phhhhht

5012. Cygnus X-1 - 9/20/2001 10:54:14 PM

Hey Phoenix, the Constitution is an imperfect document, yet I revere it. Creating another cabinet-level department doesn't make the speech overly imperfect - just the policy. I must admit that I'm not confused what the Attourney General, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of the Interior are supposed to do, but you don't have to be so knee-jerk-one-sided in your responses. Remember, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

5013. Cygnus X-1 - 9/20/2001 10:54:54 PM

I mean that I am confused.

5014. Phoenix Rising - 9/20/2001 11:00:58 PM

One-sided? Moi?

I think not.

I even have the hots for Ace.

So you are confused. I am confused. The Repugs are proposing more bureauacracy, the Demons have caved. But what else could they do? Be against more government? Scarry.

The jingoism has reached a new level. CNN loves it.

5015. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:02:05 PM

Damn good speech, btw.

"We will bring them to justice - or we will bring justice to them."

I also liked him saying that those who are not with us are against us. In fact, I was telling one of my social worker buddies at work today that if he does not say something to that effect, I would be terribly disappointed.

He did not disappoint at all, in fact. I mean, he coulda bit the lip a bit more. But did anyone else notice, toward the end, where he did the imaginary banging the gavel thing?

Very Clintonian, I thought.

5016. Cygnus X-1 - 9/20/2001 11:03:56 PM

You learn something new every day. In talking about Arafat in one of George Will's latest essays, Mr. Will writes:
Three weeks ago he was with his boon companion, Jesse Jackson, at the U.N.'s anti-Israel festival in Durban.

I thought, "Look out! Here come the censors!" But, "boon" doesn't mean that at all.

5017. Phoenix Rising - 9/20/2001 11:05:16 PM

Even Robert Reich thinks it was a "very very good" speech.

BE AFRAID!

BE VERY AFRAID!

5018. Cygnus X-1 - 9/20/2001 11:05:41 PM

joezan, Nah, the best part was when he said "If the governments do not turn over the terrorists, then they will share in their fate."

5019. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:05:55 PM

Eh - close enough though.

You think he meant "booty buddy"?

5020. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:08:26 PM

..you know George Will - never use standard slang where an arcane colloquialism will suffice.

5021. Andonly - 9/20/2001 11:12:40 PM

Ah, some orthodox rabbi at NRO coincidentally has picked up on my Amalek analogy over in Is-Pal. It was just a matter of time; but this guy's take is more pointed than mine (which I don't think I actually articulated, to be honest, past posting the relevant biblical passages).

5022. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:23:30 PM

I was listening to Bush speaking while talking on the phone. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his what isn't long enough?

5023. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:28:02 PM

His wife's veil, Pike.

5024. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:30:54 PM

Did Bush mention Iraq at all? Who cares about Uzbekistan? Forget the Stans, let's talk about the Saddams.

5025. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:33:25 PM

He didn't mention it specifically. But then, he only really mentioned Afghanistan, because that's where the first pictures of shit blowing up will be coming from.

5026. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:33:34 PM

Pssst, JZ: his beard.

5027. vonKreedon - 9/20/2001 11:34:30 PM

I assume that he reference to Uzbekistan was in hopes of basing rights in that country. Afghanistan was the only country mentioned, but it was used to lay out what will be expected of states identified as supportive of global terrorism. Also, the requirement that the terrorism be global in scope basically means that we are not declaring war on the IRA or, for that matter, the PLA.

5028. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:35:53 PM

But then, he only really mentioned Afghanistan, because that's where the first pictures of shit blowing up will be coming from.

Ahhh. Can't they show previews of the most dramatic moments? That's the way promos are usually done, no?

5029. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:35:57 PM

(yeah, Pike - I know. That was what we call a "funny")

5030. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:37:10 PM

Sorry if I sound cynical, JZ. Didn't mean to.

I didn't se the whole speech, just snippets.

5031. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:37:42 PM

see

5032. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:38:54 PM

Beards are called 'funny'? That's funny. I have a funny on my face! Hahaha!

5033. joezan - 9/20/2001 11:40:03 PM

Well, I gotta hit the sack.

I'll see youse tomorrow, when we will plot more mayhem.

5034. Indiana Jones - 9/20/2001 11:40:08 PM

The "bring justice to them" line was good.

Also, the part about "history's unmarked graves of fascism, nazism, and totalitarianism." Should have thrown communism in there as well, but you know, they didn't bury Lenin and Mao.

Impressive. Bush may not be articulate, but he was sincere, and he was articulate enough. I couldn't believe the writers had him try to explain about Bin Laden, Al Qadah, and all that other stuff. It almost reminded me of the SNL skit in which Bush shows off his knowledge of Africa by naming all the obscure leaders. That was the one place where I thought he might blow it.

But it was the best speech I've heard him make, and given the significance of the occasion, better than any of Clinton's I can recall.

5035. RustlerPike - 9/20/2001 11:40:16 PM

The footage in CNN of the meeting of bearded elders in Afghanistan is just like an episode of Dilbert I once saw.

5036. mgleason - 9/20/2001 11:45:30 PM

I don't know that the reference to 'global terror network' necessarily excludes organizations like the IRA, which does not exist in isolation, and which is known to have ties to many other terrorist groups.

5037. Al D - 9/20/2001 11:58:45 PM

There is an article worth reading on Salon, written by our own spudboy. I can't link it but here is the URL (?)

http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/09/21/iraq/index.html

5038. Andonly - 9/21/2001 12:07:56 AM

I'm surprised to say it was a superb speech. The Shrub has some extraordinary writers working for him. And it didn't come across as though he was looking at teleprompters, or notes.

I did notice with some annoyance the Clintonian gavel, and Hillary's apparent expression of displeasure while she was chatting with Chuck Schumer.

Does anyone find it weird that, just at the moment when we unexpectedly could use a rabid dog right-wing admin in the White House, we have one, sort of by the grace of domestic perfidy? I mean, a transparently partisan, self-serving Supreme Court decision has, counterintuitively enough, led to us having who we need when we need him. Or so it seems.

Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want a Democratic admin in office just now, in case it might be viewed abroad as comprising a more conciliatory leadership. Having hawks (Rumsfeld, Cheney) running the show actually makes it possible not to take precipitous or unnecessarily brutal military action. We can for the moment employ other means without risking a domestic right-wing press assault against executive timidity. These Republicans, being military culture types, will be trusted to get the job done--despite any strategic delay--whereas a Gore admin, even if it took precisely the same course of action as Bush has taken so far, might have been accused of dithering over coalitions, or being too easily dissuaded from taking appropriate strong measures.

5039. mgleason - 9/21/2001 12:14:03 AM

The other thing to consider is that Gore would be faced with the same obstructinist assholes who defined Clinton's every action as traitorous, blaming him for everything from the fall of the Roman Empire forward. They still do. You can bet that they wouldn't be making nice like the Democrats.

5040. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 12:24:34 AM

Hillary's apparent expression of displeasure...

That's her natural expression. Any other is put on.

As far as the SC decision, that's a discussion for Politics and has been hashed over many times. But if you wish, you can explain a scenario by which Gore gets to be president there.

I think it would be very difficult for Gore were he president now (it's difficult for anyone). But he would have two hostile chambers of Congress (Jeffords would not have switched caucuses), and the Republicans would have been brooding over the election. Would the Republicans have rallied behind Gore in a crisis? Dunno.

The Democrats have less choice because with a slim hold on the Senate all they can do is obstruct. At this time, that wouldn't be wise. And Gore's personality was so abrasive--that would have hurt his chances to patch things over.

The fact that Bush works by team rather than individual helps bring the Democrats on board, I think, because it gives the appearance of a lot more consensus than a "do-it-all yourself" might, before he even starts reaching out to the other party.

5041. Andonly - 9/21/2001 12:32:35 AM

"The other thing to consider is that Gore would be faced with the same obstructinist assholes who defined Clinton's every action as traitorous..."

That also occurred to me, yeah. But I'm sort of not sure. I think it might not have happened immediately; but it's hard to believe the usual Rottweilers wouldn't have scented presidential blood eventually. Like, the first time an operation failed abysmally or cost American lives. Or about twelve months before the next presidential election.

But let's see if the Dems acquit themselves more honorably under (God forbid) similar circumstances.

5042. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 12:34:02 AM

This is pretty amazing

5043. AceofSpades - 9/21/2001 12:58:59 AM

"Who cares about Uzbekistan? "

The Uzbekistans do. Speculation is that bit was inserted to convince the Uzbeks to allow us to use their country as a staging area.

See, if the President promises to help the Uzbeks on-camera, in front of a billion people, he has to follow-through. Thus, he offered up a unilateral contract for the Uzbeks to accept, if they like.

5044. AceofSpades - 9/21/2001 2:09:15 AM

Anarchy as Taliban lose control
By Ahmed Rashid
(Filed: 21/09/2001)

LAW and order was breaking down in Kabul yesterday as Taliban soldiers and poverty-stricken civilians carried out armed daylight robberies and looted houses left empty by people who have fled.

In many areas of the Afghan capital, discipline among the Taliban appeared to be collapsing ahead of an expected American assault.

"Armed men are entering people's homes under the guise of checking to see if they have arms, are watching a film or listening to music [both banned activities]," said one resident.

"The owner of the house lets them in because he has nothing to hide. Then he and the male family members are rounded up and the women are forced to hand over cash or jewellery."

Another complained: "I have lost everything." Crime was almost stamped out in Kabul after the Taliban seized it in 1996. They cut the limbs off thieves or hanged them from lamp posts.

Bringing law and order back to an anarchic country was one of the main reasons for the Taliban's early popularity. The breakdown of law and order demonstrates the rapid collapse of the militia's hierarchy.

It appears that soldiers are no longer obeying their officers.

As I said: Fucking Pussies. We ain't even *there* yet.

5045. jexster - 9/21/2001 2:35:19 AM

Confirms the LAT analysis yesterday - strike hard, strike ferociously, knock out the Tali leader and that's the ball game....

I wonder about Sadaam though. Janes confirms LAT reports that the Mossad has been supplying intel WRT the Iraqi intel's involvement with Al Quaeda....Sadaam issues a bullshit statement to the effect that he wants to help the US "out of humanitarian reasons"....then Bush doesn't mention the butthole in his speech....

mmmm....the silence is deafening IMO

5046. AceofSpades - 9/21/2001 2:39:23 AM

see Drudge

Jex, you don't announce you're going to war with too many nations simultaneously.

For now, the Taliban is the enemy. Once we're actually in-country, they will fall after only a few weeks of engagements.

Then will come the next enemy.

You don't play the Browns and Bengals simultaneously, even if they are both pussies.

5047. PelleNilsson - 9/21/2001 3:36:59 AM

Spudboy's article is not bad. It's a pity we lost him. The problem was that he knows his stuff and some people couldn't stand that.

He won a 2000 National Press Club award for distinguished online journalism

5048. stostosto - 9/21/2001 3:54:21 AM

Message # 5032 RustlerPike - 9/21/01 4:38:54 AM

Beards are called 'funny'? That's funny. I have a funny on my face! Hahaha!

Actually in Danish beard is called "skæg" which also means "funny" and "fun". And yes, you do have a funny on your face.

This also gives rise to the expression "vi har kun det skæg vi selv sidder på"

Or, for those of you who are Danish-impaired:

"The only fun we have is the one we sit upon by ourselves".

I hope this cleared it up.

5049. Property of Jesus - 9/21/2001 7:41:00 AM

Spudboy is a partisan hack, and the author of one of the worst threads in TT, an attack on the Barbara and Ted Olsen. He left here because he couldn't take the criticism.

BTW, the way "online journalism awards" works, MSNBC probably "purchased" a number of tables at the award which is why it won the 2000 National Press Club award for distinguished online journalism.

I wonder what's the real story of why Spudboy was was fired from MSNBC after "winning" the so-called award.

The fact that he didn't win any awards from them says it all.

5050. Jenerator - 9/21/2001 7:43:40 AM

You sound jealous.

5051. Property of Jesus - 9/21/2001 7:50:59 AM

You sound blonde. But we know better, right?

No, these award banquets are a ripoff. The people who buy the tables get the awards. The fact that one-man-shop Drudge, who gets more than 3 million hits a day, is frozen out shows me that politics and money call the shots on who wins.

Bye. Leaving home to get kids to school and then on to work.

5052. joezan - 9/21/2001 7:57:45 AM

Spudboy's work is the product of obsession - which is okay in a less (potentially) subjective medium.

He has always claimed that he is an "investigative journalist" - fair and impartial. But his agenda is betrayed by those he obsesses on. Ask him if he's ever investigated any left-wing groups - I did.

He hasn't.

5053. Jenerator - 9/21/2001 8:00:52 AM

No such thing as an impartial journalist!

5054. joezan - 9/21/2001 8:03:45 AM

True...

However, spuddy-boy goes to monumental lengths to "prove" his impartiality.

5055. Jenerator - 9/21/2001 8:07:36 AM

Sounds like Adolf Harnack.

5056. Wombat - 9/21/2001 8:55:13 AM

Good speech. Good strategy. It is much more of a reflection of what ScottLoar and others have been putting forward than the bomb 'em until the rubble glows crowd.

Being a scurvy "intellectual," with two degrees, I read it.

Glad to see that Ace is reverting to Republican sycophancy. If Bush had proposed what he intends to do now last week, I am sure that some here would have excoriated Bush for being a complete weenie.

Incidentally, by including a reference to those imprisoned in Afghanistan, the prospects for Jen's friends may have taken an upward turn. Since Taliban has shown some indication of a sense of survival, they might release them as an attempt to placate the US. Too little, too late for Taliban, but good for Jen's friends.

5057. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 9:10:30 AM

The problem was that he knows his stuff and some people couldn't stand that.

So they made him stop posting here, Pelle? How did they accomplish that?

For once, PoJ is more on the money:

He left here because he couldn't take the criticism.

Incidentally, I remember when spudboy left, and it wasn't because of Francis and Ace (if that's what you think, Pelle). It was cazart, who started ridiculing spudboy's journalistic credentials.

Of course someone can argue that it was a cumulative series of events, but it was cazart who drove him away.

And spudboy did come back and post a singleton after that in a way that made me think he still lurked here occasionally.

Like joezan, I saw spudboy as someone who had one hobbyhorse and his view of everything else was from atop that.

5058. rubberducky - 9/21/2001 9:23:48 AM

who cares about spudboy?

this isn't the thread to debate it in case anyone is. please discuss this elsewhere, thank you.

5059. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 9:55:28 AM

You're right, ducky. Sorry for being drawn into it.

5060. Phoenix Rising - 9/21/2001 10:05:04 AM

This stock market sucks.

I'm about ready to head for Wall Street to start kicking some unpatriotic ass.

Of course, none of the weenies will admit they are selling.

and selling irrationally, if you ask me.

5061. Wombat - 9/21/2001 10:06:08 AM

What ever happened to buy low, sell high?

5062. ScottLoar - 9/21/2001 10:10:12 AM

Very good comments and insights on Afghanistan by Eric Margolis interviewed on CNN just a while ago this morning, author of War at the Top of the World : The Struggle for Afghanistan, Kashmir and Tibet (which I haven't read), to wit:

1) Afghanistan represents no unified force but tribal militias;
2) Any occupying force will be under constant attack by the whole of the populace;
3) History has shown such foreign incursions are easily done and hardly finished (easy to go in, hard to get out);
4) 80,000,000 land mines laid by the Soviets are still there representing yet another obstacle.

The interview was but five or so minutes long, but the most reasonable comments I've heard by someone who has actual experience of the country. The advice in short - don't go in with an occupying army, and when attacked the Afghans will dig their heels in for a long fight. I remind anyone reading here, Americans are not good as an occupying force nor are we particularly suited for long wars of attrition.

5063. ScottLoar - 9/21/2001 10:12:27 AM

Yes, I heard and repeated 80 million land mines.

5064. Phoenix Rising - 9/21/2001 10:15:25 AM

I know. I haven't even gotten my fat ass in motion yet, and I already feel like I have contributed mightily to the cause. All my funds are down over 20% in the past week.

But back on topic....

I think it is appropriate that the world's only superpower has decided it's going to police the world.

The remnants of Viet Nam are finally totally completely dead.

Now we just have to agree on who to arrest. The terrorists, yea and their sponsers.

But for me, next I would give those fat, rich fucks on the Arabian pennisula an ultimatium:

Implement market capital based democracy or else....

5065. Toenails - 9/21/2001 10:15:45 AM

Don't worry, "buy low, sell high" still lives.

They're just in the process of defining "low" right now.

5066. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 10:19:07 AM

Wombat, what's "weenie" about this:?
The Taliban must act and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists or they will share in their fate.
Or, how about this:?
And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.
I don't think anyone expected him to telegraph our military actions (at least non-Democrats didn't).

5067. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:19:20 AM

Nightline ran a shocking piece on the damage that all this has done to airlines and tourism...for those like me who at 6'5 HATES airlines and their flying sardine cans, I guess I should be pleased at 3% flight loads but hell...

They also showed shots of tourist destinations and hotels which are totally dead although SF still seems to have some business, other cities apparently have ZIP

One airline industry outside consultant said that if in 3-4 months that 3% climbs to 20% most US airlines will fail and along with them hosts of dependent hospitality businesses.

That is 10% of the US economy.

5068. alistairconnor - 9/21/2001 10:22:41 AM

I didn't hear the speech, but here's a comment from New Zealand :

I saw, in the opening snippet of tonight's news, good ole W sayin' that everybody in the world is either with him or with the terrorists. I turned it off and went to play ball with my dog. I'm not with W or the terrorists or any other dickhead with bloodlust. I'm sorry to be inelegant, but all I could think was that W, like ALL bullies, can go fuck himself.

Old Weird Richard

5069. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:23:49 AM

WRT "telegrapphing" military actions ABC's Pentagon and State correspondents each reported there has not been any decision on what to do....its simply so complicated an operation that it will take time to work out the details....

Course that could be disinformation they'd been fed and were regurgitating...I kinda hope so because it will be VERY hard to sustain today's public support without SOME CNN broadcast evidence of action...even if its not important in the Grand Scheme of things, I fear that there willl be growing impatience to see something, anything done, and a drop in support for anything if nothing is visible.

5070. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:26:47 AM

Don't worry, "buy low, sell high" still lives.

They're just in the process of defining "low" right now....

Perhaps, perhaps not.

But for now 2 things are clear:

- The efforts of the "elites" who supposedly rule the world to urge patriotic buying (helllooooo Warren Buffett et al!) failed.

- Money has no moral sense

5071. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:29:33 AM

Bush's speech could have been delivered by his butler or my cat (Balinese -300 word vocabulary, very talkative)

The American "street" is united in anger and resolve inspite, not because of a performance that reads better than it looked...

5072. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 10:32:38 AM

jexster, re 5069:

How many times must you be told: This administration is different. It sways public opionion - not the other way around. They've committed to a mission and do not need a bunch of peaceniks to support them. This is for their own good.

5073. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:32:47 AM

And I was on one of those "streets" last night, Castro Street in fact....

For the past week an altar has been built and maintained at a local gay corner of political significance, the Hyde Park Corner of Castro/19th aka "Hibernia Beach"...

Throngs were there last night as were tons of flowers, votive candles, incense, torches, flags, prayers posted on the bank wall, notes of outrage, buddhas, pictures of Jesus and the Virgin, torches...etc....all the bars were packed...everyone in this country is resolute - or everyone that is anyone

5074. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 10:33:16 AM

re 5071: Sore loser! Ha ha!

5075. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 10:34:00 AM

jexster, maybe you can get a date with Hillary. You two can celebrate in your misery over America's newfound patriotism.

5076. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:34:07 AM

I guess I must have missed something because your post 5072 Cyg is unintelligible...

5077. Wombat - 9/21/2001 10:34:34 AM

Cygnus:

All you are demonstrating with your last post is a complete inability to read, and a rather jerky knee.

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you would find that I was supporting both the speech and the strategy, pointing out that it was in general congruent with what some of us on this thread have been advocating all along, and needling some people on this thread who were voiciferously advocating more extreme measures, and accusing anyone who said otherwise of being a bunch of pussy-shit fairies.

Obviously, you are too stupid to figure that out.

5078. Phoenix Rising - 9/21/2001 10:35:38 AM

I can't imagine it reads better than it looked. 99% empty rhetoric, imho. Whether on the page or on the screen...still empty rhetoric.

The Demon/Repug response was worse. Daschle/Lott actually managed to take up 8 minutes of airtime and said not one single substantial thing.

And can we please stop this point and single out some person in the audiance crap? When Reagan did it, it was novel and interesting. He had the rhetorical skills to pull it off.

Ever since it is just derivative and stupid.

5079. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:35:52 AM

There you go projecting again Cyg...puts me in mind of your "story" about meeting a nutcase in SF...I am now convinced beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty that on your visit to SF it was the homeless man who said "yes i have a sunburn" and you who babbled incoherently

5080. concerned - 9/21/2001 10:36:00 AM

Re. 5047 -

In as far as Spudboy's misdirected venting at right wing groups has managed to distract or provide cover for the Clowntoon administration's wrongheaded concentration on terrorism by the same (to the exclusion of much more dangerous vectors), which has turned out to be a dry well as far as actual terrorist activity since 1995, he shares complicity in the egregious lack of investigation into the preparations leading up to the WTC/Pentagon mass murder.

Btw,I was wondering: Has anybody here ever heard PE make mention of an ill uncle at any time earlier than immediately before his precipitous rush to Peshawar?

5081. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:38:40 AM

PR....there were some nifty rhetorical spots ...c'mon

He just delivers like Howdy Doody....

Rudy the Rock puts him to shame....

Its best that Bush say as little as possible and keep those cue cards close

Jesus, Mary, Joseph look at what we have to lead us!

5082. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:42:03 AM

Concerned you make me puke ...you have no standing whatsoever to criticize Clinton's attacks on Osama et al ...you are on record as dismissing the whole thing as a fraud at the time...

You were more interested then, as you are now, with Gary Condit's toupee and the destination of Bill's Cohiba than the real problem, a problem that you and your ilk bear blood responsibility for.

5083. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:42:33 AM

Silly little boy.

5084. Macnas - 9/21/2001 10:43:24 AM

Its a wig??

Had me fooled..

5085. Phoenix Rising - 9/21/2001 10:44:10 AM

"Its best that Bush say as little as possible and keep those cue cards close"

Then why make an address to a joint session of Congress, in the first place?

...Oh, he's still trying to make up for that duck for cover in Omaha maneuver.

5086. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:46:21 AM

And see...look at these posts carefully for they prove the point of my message Message # 5069...Hastert & Gephardt may be all lovey dovey, and granted we Motiers are a psychologically disordered lot....but get real (those who still have that ability) - what you see in these posts will be magnified a thousand fold in the general public and the media if some decisive result is not achieved in the near future (at least a TV show "result" prescinding the quest of "decisive") or some new disaster hits o

5087. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:49:28 AM

PR...he has to make a speech to Congress..and he'll have to make several more....its a rite of our political religion if you will...its absence would be noticed big time and with disastrous results....

And he did well, for him....Cyg could have done better but what the hey, Cyg isn't President

YET

5088. concerned - 9/21/2001 10:49:47 AM

Re. 5082 -

You'd better get your medication adjusted, Jexster.

I've almost totally ignored Condit, and virtually all of Cruise Missile Clowntoon's actions WTD actions in 1998 were worse than useless.

Clowntoon is your ilk, not mine. You've reached the height of being ridiculous, trying to blame me personally for his actions.

I condemned the bombing of a Sudan pharmaceutical factory and the complete waste of cruise missiles in Afghanistan then, with the illegal violation of Pakistani air space, and I will always condemn such actions, which have helped precipitate the WTC/Pentagon mass murder.

Clowntoon has the blood shed at the WTC and the Pentagon on his hands.

5089. Toenails - 9/21/2001 10:50:08 AM

... a problem that you and your ilk bear blood responsibility for.

Easy, there, Jex. That has a Falwellian sound to it.

5090. concerned - 9/21/2001 10:51:47 AM

How like a Lefty, trying to shift the blame for Clowntoon's actions.

I knew that Leftists were irresponsible, but Jexster is absolutely shameless.

5091. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:51:49 AM

A wig?

FINALLY - the most pressing question of our time answered....

I feel so much better...my fear of flying hath fled

Thanks ever so

5092. concerned - 9/21/2001 10:53:04 AM

Toenails -

Face it. Jexster is a crazy, but I like him anyway.

5093. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:55:19 AM

"Virtually ignored condit"

Do you know what the meaning of "is" is?

And as for your post-facto attacks on Clinton's 1998 actions....your silence is an admission of the fact that you and others like you failed to rise to the occasion....you were too busy getting your freaky freeper rocks off masturbating to pics of Monica and Bill...

Hoo-Ya!

For the uninitiated, the mating call of the Wild American Freeper in heat

5094. Phoenix Rising - 9/21/2001 10:57:15 AM

From the AP

"Larry Silverstein, leader of a consortium that took over a 99-year, $3.2 billion lease on the Trade Center in July, said Thursday he intends to rebuild -- but not "a carbon copy of what was." Instead, he may construct four 50-story buildings. "

No No No. This will not do. We need to build a single 120 story tower flanked by two 60 story towers.

Think about it.

5095. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:57:18 AM

Slate "bush comes to shove"

Jesus, Mary Joseph...where IS my rosary!

5096. jexster - 9/21/2001 10:59:00 AM

San Jose airport is inspecting arriving cars...

3% load

That market is gonna be "searching" for its lows for some time...

5097. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:00:23 AM

Toe....

HOO-YA!

5098. concerned - 9/21/2001 11:00:58 AM

Re. 5093 -

Jexster -

I challenge you to cite more than three posts that I have ever made regarding Condit, which I wouldn't be at all surprised would be fewer than you yourself have made.

And when you search, make sure that you link for the rest of us so that we can all see that I specifically mentioned that I was reserving judgment on the topic of the day regarding him and Chandra Levy.

Back it up or back down, jexster. That is, unless you're simply an irresponsible Lefty.

5099. janjon - 9/21/2001 11:03:10 AM

well written speech, not badly delivered. sound and sane strategy (well, at least as far as one can tell from the understandably very generalized discussion re same). Indeed, certainly not what...some...here would have us do.

I only hope that when the going gets tough, as it will (military deaths, frustrating and at best only partially successful efforts, and, forbid it all but it will happen, more sickening and (for us) disastrous terrorist efforts here, that W and his can hold to their course in the face of what will be shrill and very energetic cries from a large part of their political base to just NUKE 'EM (which at that point will mean much of the Middle East to that group).

5100. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:05:43 AM

Notice the absence of reference to "communism" in the Litany of Evil last night.

Bush is about to KOW TOW to the Chicoms.

5101. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:06:25 AM

5102. janjon - 9/21/2001 11:06:55 AM

yes, when he singled out the widow (and, not to be denigrating in the slightest, but just how do we know what that particular man did on that flight?), I immediately yelled out FUCK. (Startled and intrigued my 10 year old son). I just thought it is just more of the same old State of the Union, business as usual crap.

In hindsight, I can see that it was intended to quickly include the Pennsylvania crash victims as being honored and then to move on.

5103. Macnas - 9/21/2001 11:07:09 AM

Jesus Mary and Joeseph tonight and Patrick and Bridget and all the suffering divine saints have mercy.....

My grandmothers mantra, God be good to her.

5104. janjon - 9/21/2001 11:08:15 AM

concerned. gee, are you saying that all of this is Clinton's fault? how surprising.

you really have to get a new obsession.

5105. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:11:40 AM

janjon...concerned and cyg can get their inspiration from Howdy Doody...I'll get mine from Rudy G - if I need it that is...ask Uzzie...I am as bloothirsty a mutha as there is around here...

Whatever works.

5106. Wombat - 9/21/2001 11:19:30 AM

I see that concerned has found his tinfoil-covered football helmet again. Too bad, for the last few days, he's been relatively sane.

5107. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:21:46 AM

Republicans in general and Limbaugh Legionnaires in particular (hoo-ya!) have no standing to criticize Clinton for this mess.

None whatever.

The NY Times reports, "Federal officials say they have not persuaded foreign banks to open their books to investigators and that in this country, a law that would have allowed the United States to penalize foreign banks that did not cooperate was blocked last year by a single United States senator... The bill, introduced by the Clinton administration, would give the Treasury secretary broad power to bar foreign countries and banks from access to the American financial market unless they cooperated with money-laundering investigations. It was strongly opposed by the banking industry and [Senator Phil] Gramm. 'I was right then and I am right now' in opposing the bill, Mr. Gramm said yesterday. He called the bill 'totalitarian' and added, 'The way to deal with terrorists is to hunt them down and kill them.'" According to the Times, Bin Laden's financial methods have not changed since he worked "side by side with the C.I.A. to support the rebels fighting Soviet forces in Afghanistan."

5108. glendajean - 9/21/2001 11:22:32 AM

I thought Bush's speech was fine. I did wish that he would have drawn on previous moments when we've stood together as a nation in times of crisis and war. I think that there has to be a big distinction between this war and the actions of the cold war period.

As someone on tv said last night, in Vietnam, 10 years after it started, people were still asking why we were there. The reply was always complicated.

We have a very good reply for responding to any question of why we are going to war. Our homeland was attacked, innocent citizens were killed in our nation's largest city. We are threatened.

And this threatening is not by people we have mau-maued in the past. It is by cold-blooded killers, fairly educated, many from affluent backgrounds, who uniformly hate what we hold as liberal western values: freedom, multi-cultural tolerance, the rights of women and gay people, the right to conduct free enterprise.

These terrorists are facists with a Islamic bent, like those of the last century, if we don't take them on, who will?

Interestingly, Arabic and Moslem countries have taken them on and chased them away, often content to let them focus their hatred on us as long as they stay out of Saudi Arabia or Syria. Thomas Friedman in today's NY Times has a column on that in this morning's paper.

5109. labwabbit - 9/21/2001 11:23:23 AM

September 12, 2001

Dear Osama Bin Laden, Yasser Arafat, and Sadam Hussein, et. al.,

We are pleased to announce that we unequivocally accept your challenge to an old-fashioned game of whoop-ass. Now that we understand the rule
that there are no rules, we look forward to playing by them for the first time.

Since this game is a winner-take-all, we unfortunately are unable to invite you to join us at the victory celebration. But rest assured that we will toast you -- LITERALLY.

While we will admit that you are off to an impressive lead, it is however now our turn at the plate.

By the way, we will be playing on your court now.

Batter up.

Sincerely,

The 270,000,000 citizens of the United States of America

5110. glendajean - 9/21/2001 11:24:01 AM

I list the rights of women and gay people not because those rights should be special or separate, but because it is specifically those rights that seems to draw the ire of the murderers, among other things.

5111. ScottLoar - 9/21/2001 11:33:47 AM

The US is demonized and targeted exactly as the very icon of modern life antithetical to the fundamentalist's vision of an Islamic society, and for supporting Israel (no mention that Egypt in particular is the second largest beneficiary of direct US aid; hell, at one time Romania was the largest beneficiary).

5112. Wombat - 9/21/2001 11:34:39 AM

In the interests of impartiality: Dumb piece by Bruce Shapiro in Salon today. Makes an in-apt link between the "war" on drugs and what the US is trying to do against terrorism.

5113. glendajean - 9/21/2001 11:39:00 AM

It is ironic that these agents of Bin Laden (or whoever) aren't peasants on a stony hill with long beards. These are people often educated in the United States or west, many from affluent families.

As several have pointed out over the past few days, it is not Palestinians who have been implicated so far in the hijackings, but Saudis, Egyptians and Algerians.

5114. Andonly - 9/21/2001 11:43:22 AM

"As several have pointed out over the past few days, it is not Palestinians who have been implicated so far in the hijackings, but Saudis, Egyptians and Algerians."

I thought I heard earlier in the week that one of them was from Gaza. Has that news been refuted now?

5115. janjon - 9/21/2001 11:43:59 AM

apropros of a querry I made yesterday, today's Times (and I suspect other papers as well) has two photographs of a total of four of the presumed terrorists. Two (including one who certainly looks like Atta) in Logan, the other of two young, cleancut ones at a bank ATM in Florida taken about a week before the attacks.

5116. concerned - 9/21/2001 11:44:52 AM

Re. 5106 -

Wombat -

If you ever went after the Left, you might have a little credibility.

Meanwhile, you just keep using your tinfoil. Makes it all the easier for me to kick your ass.

5117. concerned - 9/21/2001 11:46:10 AM

That puts me in mind of how laughably wrong Wombats was about NMD in past discussions.

Oh, yeah.

5118. Andonly - 9/21/2001 11:46:35 AM

Has anyone seen this?

> Why the Bombings Mean That We Must Support My Politics
> http://www.adequacy.org/op=displaystory;sid=2001/9/12/102423/271
>
> Of course the World Trade Center bombings are a uniquely tragic event, and
> it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. However,
> we must also consider if this is not also a lesson to us all; a lesson that
> my political views are correct. Although what is done can never be undone,
> the fact remains that if the world were organised according to my political
> views, this tragedy would never have happened.
>
> Many people will use this terrible tragedy as an excuse to put through a
> political agenda other than my own. This tawdry abuse of human suffering for
> political gain sickens me to the core of my being. Those people who have
> different political views from me ought to be ashamed of themselves for
> thinking of cheap partisan point-scoring at a time like this. In any case,
> what this tragedy really shows us is that, so far from putting into practice
> political views other than my own, it is precisely my political agenda which
> ought to be advanced.

[cont]

5119. Andonly - 9/21/2001 11:47:27 AM

>
> Not only are my political views vindicated by this terrible tragedy, but
> also the status of my profession. Furthermore, it is only in the context of
> a national and international tragedy like this that we are reminded of the
> very special status of my hobby, and its particular claim to legislative
> protection. My religious and spiritual views also have much to teach us
> about the appropriate reaction to these truly terrible events.
>
> Countries which I like seem to never suffer such tragedies, while countries
> which, for one reason or another, I dislike, suffer them all the time. The
> one common factor which seems to explain this has to do with my political
> views, and it suggests that my political views should be implemented as a
> matter of urgency, even though they are, as a matter of fact, not
> implemented in the countries which I like.
>
> Of course the World Trade Center attacks are a uniquely tragic event, and it
> is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. But we must
> also not lose sight of the fact that I am right on every significant moral
> and political issue, and everybody ought to agree with me. Please, I ask you
> as fellow human beings, vote for the political party which I support, and
> ask your legislators to support policies endorsed by me, as a matter of
> urgency.
>
> It would be a fitting memorial.

5120. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:48:10 AM

I've none of those nefarious "lefties" to bash around here (sadly) but I do so wish I could find one of those who are posting the "Don't Turn Tragedy into War" posters all over the place....

I can only rip them down..."tragedy" my ass! Murder is a bit more than just a fuckin tragedy and self-defense quite a bit more that that poster pap.

5121. jexster - 9/21/2001 11:48:35 AM

HOO YA!

5122. concerned - 9/21/2001 11:49:28 AM

Allies, critics say Clowntoon fell short in terror fight

Can we all say 'wag the dog'(WTD)? I knew we could.

Now, I expect Wombat to assert that the Boston Globe has put on its 'tinfoil hat'.

'bout what I'd expect from such an idiot.

5123. glendajean - 9/21/2001 11:50:23 AM

Andonly -- I haven't heard about the person from Gaza. You may be right. But at one, that would still be a bit of an exception.

I just don't think this bombing was solely and directly linked to the current troubles between Israel and the Palestinians. The murderers been planning it for years.

Of course, they probably hate us for our support of Israel. But even that is not much of an argument, given our support of Arab and Moslem governments in the past.

I think it is our values that they despise the most, as well as envy. They've attached themselves to a nasty radical version of Islam, a charismatic leader, and have used their intelligence and hatred to kill. They don't just want our support of Israel to end, they want us to end. To leave the planet.

Didn't Bush say last night that people from 80 countries died during the plane crashes? The world ought to take notice. These are not nice people.

5124. labwabbit - 9/21/2001 11:55:26 AM

From the Washington Times

Aboard Flight 564
Peter Hannaford
As it was at most U.S. airports, last Saturday was the first near-normal day at Denver International since the terrorist attacks.

On United's Flight 564 the door had just been locked and the plane was about to pull out of the gate when the captain came on the public
address system.
"I want to thank you brave folks for coming out today. We don't have any new instructions from the federal government, so from now on we're on our own."
The passengers listened in total silence.
He explained that airport security measures had pretty much solved the problem of firearms being carried aboard, but not weapons
of the type the terrorists apparently used, plastic knives or those fashioned from wood or ceramics.
"Sometimes a potential hijacker will announce that he has a bomb.
There are no bombs on this aircraft and if someone were to get up and make that claim, don't believe him.
"If someone were to stand up,brandish something such as a knife and say 'This is a hijacking' or words to that effect here is what you should do: Every one of you should stand up and immediately
throw things at that person - pillows, books, magazines, eyeglasses, shoes -anything that will throw him off balance and distract his attention. If he has a confederate or two, do the same with them.
Most important get a blanket over him, then wrestle him to floor and keep him there. We'll land the plane at the nearest airport and the
authorities will take it from there." (con)

5125. labwabbit - 9/21/2001 11:55:51 AM

"Remember, there will be one of him and maybe a few confederates, but there are 200 of you. You can overwhelm them.
"The Declaration of Independence says 'We, the people' and that's just what it is when we're up in the air: we, the people, vs. would-be terrorists. I don't think we are going to have any such problem today or tomorrow or for a while, but some time down the road, it is
going to happen again and I want you to know what to do.
"Now, since we're a family for the new few hours, I'll ask you to turn to the person next to you, introduce yourself, tell them a little
about yourself and ask them to do the same."
The end of this remarkable speech brought sustained clapping from the passengers. He had put the matter in perspective. If only the
passengers on those ill-fated flights last Tuesday had been given the same talk, I thought, they might be alive today. One group on United
Flight 93, which crashed in a Pennsylvania field, apparently rushed the hijackers in an attempt to wrest control from them. While they perished, they succeeded in preventing the terrorist from
attacking his intended goal, possibly the White House or the Capitol.
Procedures for dealing with hijackers were conceived in a time when the hijackers were usually seeking the release of jailed comrades
or a large amount of money. Mass murder was not their goal. That short talk last Saturday by the pilot of Flight 564 should set a new standard of realism.
Every passenger should learn the simple - but potentially life-saving - procedure he outlined. He showed his passengers that a hijacking does not have to result in hopelessness and terror, but
victory over the perpetrators.

Peter Hannaford is a public affairs consultant.
Full article at http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20010919-6357240.htm

5126. Wombat - 9/21/2001 12:04:07 PM

Oh, right concerned. Any defence of the NMD system that Bush wants in place in Alaska must be somewhat labored these days, given a first hand demonstration of how much damage can be done w/o ICBMs.

Any laughing that was done about NMD was by me after you proposed a series of wrist-slaps for a country that fired off a missile that was successfully foiled.

As you choose to omit, I have been highly critical of the Clinton Administration's foreign policy, much of the criticism having to do with not acting forcefully enough in dealing with terrorists, Saddam, and Milosevic. Too bad you can only do the same, ex post facto.

5127. rubberducky - 9/21/2001 12:05:04 PM

Andonly :

interesting, if not sickly on target

5128. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 12:09:39 PM

Wombat, re 5077:

I saw what you were doing. Trying to be "nuanced", "even handed", etc. Very sophisticated. I marvel at your grace. But, nothing Bush said was inconsistent with going in and opening up a can of whoop-ass. The peacniks may have reason do be disappointed; but, not the hawks.

5129. glendajean - 9/21/2001 12:24:30 PM

Among everything else that is unusual about our current affairs was seeing Prime Minister Blair in the visitor's gallery.

I wonder if a British prime minister has ever witnessed a presidential address to the Congress? That underscored the historical nature of last night. It certainly reminded me of Roosevelt and Churchill's relationship.

5130. Andonly - 9/21/2001 12:35:16 PM

How I loathe Edward Said.

5131. rubberducky - 9/21/2001 12:45:25 PM

what a pompous dick

5132. judithathome - 9/21/2001 12:51:41 PM

Lab:

Thanks for that post about what to do if someone tries to hijack a plane...they ought to hand that out with the life vest instructions.

5133. christipeters - 9/21/2001 12:54:46 PM

"....and, not to be denigrating in the slightest, but just how do we know what that particular man did on that flight?)"

He called 911 from his cell phone. He described what was going on. He told the dispatcher what he and the others were going to do. The phone line was still open when they started whatever they did. We know because 911 calls are recorded.

I wish there were nore mention of the ones that helped.

5134. mgleason - 9/21/2001 12:57:34 PM

And buried in the blah, blah, fucking blah, Said's real point:

There has been terror, of course, and nearly every struggling modern movement at some stage has relied on terror. This was as true of Mandela's ANC as it was of all the others, Zionism included.

They're freedom fighters, and besides, the Jews did it first.

5135. christipeters - 9/21/2001 1:02:10 PM

more mention

5136. glendajean - 9/21/2001 1:06:35 PM

Said is a very brave man. Isn't there a picture of him tossing a symbolic rock against the Israelis?

Only that the people he is talking about would support freedom (right to vote, free enterprise, freedom of the speech, freedom of religion) instead of worrying about emptying the world of the people they hate and envy.

5137. Andonly - 9/21/2001 1:08:38 PM

Extremely interesting Q&A about Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. I had not realized it was active internationally, and that members had fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

5138. Wombat - 9/21/2001 1:11:35 PM

Cygnus:

You are a moron. In the days after 9/11, the main options considered on this thread were whether or not to bomb every country in the Middle East from Afghanistan to to Yemen (or Zanzibar?), and whether using nukes to do so might be just a tad extreme. Anyone who suggested that a better policy would be more along the lines of what the President described last night was derided as a pussy shit fag.

If it doesn't strain your intellect, work your way through the first 1500 postings. You'll see what I mean.

5139. Andonly - 9/21/2001 1:17:19 PM

I suspect similar rationalisation is used to explain why Egyptians can accept American foreign aid, yet still pronounce that the US deserved the 9-11 disaster:

" Q: What do Ikhwan [the Muslim Brotherhood] think about Democracy and presonal freedome?

This depends on you definetion of democracy, if democacy means that people decide who leads them than Ikhwan accept it, if it means that people can change the laws of Allah and follow what they wish to follow then it is not acceptable. Ikhwan only accept to participate in such systems because more benefit will be achived if they do, and more evil will be avoided. A little help is better than no help at all.

About personal freedome, Ikhwan accept personal freedome withen the limits of Islam, However, if personal freedome to you means that muslim women can wear shorts or muslim men can do Haram stuff then Ikhwan do not approve of that."

Democracy denatured.

5140. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 1:20:23 PM

Hmmm... No one seems to be talking about Hillary here (The Mote). Even the liberals where I am were disappointed with her. I postulated that she either has a stomach ache or PMS. It could have been a migraine. Or, and I'm giving that peacenik ninny jexster some material here, it could be something worse. Let me explain.

What are the chances that of all planes to choose, a plane was chosen with Barbara Olson, author of Hell to Pay and a soon-to-be-published book and the abuses of power in the waning days of the Clinton administration, on it? Did these terrorists have even more inside help than we could have possibly imagined? If that Palestinian organazition that claimed responsibility for the WTC bombing was truthful, then doesn't it seem suspicious that Arafat was the most frequent foreign visitor to the White House? Could it be that Hillary was giving Arafat instructions? Could it be the she orchestrated the most devious attack on America in history?

One can only speculate. Admittedly, it had to take intelligence to plan this attack. Hillary is supposed to be the most intelligent woman (person?) in the world. Well, absent anything else to prove it, maybe this does.

5141. judithathome - 9/21/2001 1:20:56 PM

Ducky:

It's probably because I'm going to be making an 8 hour flight in a few weeks but I think you should link Labs post about the hijacking advice on the front page.

5142. Andonly - 9/21/2001 1:21:58 PM

"They're freedom fighters, and besides, the Jews did it first."

Trust you to notice that bit interred in all his brotherhood of man eyewash.

Did anyone see his piece in the NYRB about two years back, complaining that the Oslo process had opened lines of communication between Pals and Israelis so that young university age Pals were becoming too comfortable with the occupier and needed to be shaken out of their complacency? I believe his prescription for fixing this hideous problem, and the last words of his essay, were: "Incite them."

(He needn't have worried.)

5143. judithathome - 9/21/2001 1:22:35 PM

No one seems to be talking about Hillary here (The Mote). Even the liberals where I am were disappointed with her. I postulated that she either has a stomach ache or PMS.

Maybe that's because your stupid sexist remarks about her aren't worth acknowledging.

5144. Wombat - 9/21/2001 1:23:34 PM

Concerned:

The Globe article is very good. Of course, you decline to mention the parts that describe the role that the assessments given by the FBI, CIA, and the Pentagon (none of whom were supportive of the President) played in limiting Clinton's options, nor do you have anything to say about the reception that Clinton's antiterrorism legislation received in the Republican-controlled Congress. I would also have enjoyed your reaction if Clinton had presented appropriation requests to fight terrorism such as those that recently sailed through both Houses of Congress. You are not even a Republican hack, just a Clinton foamer.

5145. jonesatlaw - 9/21/2001 1:25:34 PM

CynusX-1- Pass that joint, you've had enough.

5146. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 1:26:00 PM

Moron alert

5147. Andonly - 9/21/2001 1:27:16 PM

Mgleason, re the Said thing, did you find his representations of US media reaction to the attack accurate? Or his claim that Giuliani was the "first" to counsel against a backlash? Etc.?

They struck me as plain lies and dissembling, at least based on what my TV was broadcasting. But perhaps I live on the moon and Said has access to the real America.

5148. Jenerator - 9/21/2001 1:29:15 PM

Has anyone else been getting these ridiculous e-mails?

>> Subject: This is Weird
>>
>>
>> O.K., here goes!
>> The date of the attack:
>> 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
>> September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 +
>> 5 + 4 = 11
>>
>> After Setember 11th there are 111 days left to
>> the end of the
>> year.
>>
>>
>> 119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran 1 + 1 + 9 = 11
>> Twin Towers - standing side by side looks like
>> the number 11.
>>
>> The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11
>> I have More
>> State of New York - The 11th state added to the
>> Union
>>
>> New York City - 11 letters
>> Afghanistan - 11 Letters
>> The Pentagon - 11 Letters
>> Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (Convicted for
>> orchestrating the attack on the
>> WTC in 1993)
>>
>> Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11
>> Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

A couple of friends are sending them too, and I'm trying to figure out a way to politely tell them to quit it immediately.

I'm not into Nostradamus or number games.

5149. mgleason - 9/21/2001 1:30:54 PM

I believe his prescription for fixing this hideous problem, and the last words of his essay, were: "Incite them."

Just another calm, measured response from the Gandhi of our time.

5150. Wombat - 9/21/2001 1:31:40 PM

It makes about as much sense as some of the other crap that floats around the internet. One scholar--whose name I forget--has spent a career debunking prophecies attributed to Nostradamus.

5151. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 1:35:33 PM

Why the US should abandon Israel and learn to love the Islamic fundamentalists

5152. Jenerator - 9/21/2001 1:36:53 PM

I hate chain e-mails..."send this e-mail to 10 of your friends and you'll have good luck for three years. If you do not send this to 10 of your friends, your luck will stop."

Also, I've gotten two phonecalls from the Fraternal Order of Police, soliciting donations for NY police.

5153. jonesatlaw - 9/21/2001 1:38:00 PM

In my phone book 964 and 98 are the respective codes for Iran and Iraq.

5154. LimeGirl - 9/21/2001 1:38:21 PM

Maybe it's time to stop being polite. Or possibly find just as many things that don't add up to 11. Like the area code of Afghanistan, the number of letters in Iraq, the number of days in the year before Sept. 11th. The number of passengers on the other two flights. The number of letters in the guy's name who called his wife and told her they were going to do something, etc.

Great speech by the captain of the plane!

5155. Jenerator - 9/21/2001 1:39:13 PM

IJ,

My goodness, what an article. I'd like to meet the Canadian who suggested all of that!

5156. Wombat - 9/21/2001 1:40:05 PM

Jen:

There have been reports of telephone scammers trying to take advantage of the situation by soliciting funds for worthy-sounding organizations. Get it in writing.

5157. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 1:40:23 PM

judith,

Hey, I can't help it if you broads suffer from PMS. It's up to you to keep it from affecting your job performance.

So that's what you think it is? Can't she take medication for that? Even I was embarrassed for her last night.

5158. mgleason - 9/21/2001 1:40:37 PM

Mgleason, re the Said thing, did you find his representations of US media reaction to the attack accurate? Or his claim that Giuliani was the "first" to counsel against a backlash? Etc.?

I don't want to deny credit to Giuliani, Andonly, for what has been an outstanding effort, but the guy had other things on his mind for quite some time. Perhaps Said was watching an infomercial for Rudy's next political venture. That, or his leukemia treatments must include access to some seriously interesting controlled substances.

5159. judithathome - 9/21/2001 1:40:42 PM

and I'm trying to figure out a way to politely tell them to quit it immediately.

Why be polite? Just act like they are someone you disagree with politically and blast them.

5160. greystoke - 9/21/2001 1:40:49 PM

"Fleischer said the U.S. goal was not to overthrow the Taliban government."

Why don't we want to overthrow the Taliban ? (Or perhaps we just don't want to admit it for some reason.)

5161. LimeGirl - 9/21/2001 1:41:11 PM

Those hijackers who were on board the plane that crashed in that field in Pennsylvania must have heard over the air waves about the success of their compatriots´ operations in New York and Washington and deciding that no excessive lives need be lost that day, as their political point had already been clearly made,

I kept reading after this, IJ. When I got to the part about how Michael Moore was unusually perceptive, I had to quit!

5162. greystoke - 9/21/2001 1:42:45 PM

The Fleischer quote was from Rueters.

5163. judithathome - 9/21/2001 1:42:51 PM

Even I was embarrassed for her last night

That's okay; she'd probably be embarrassed for you every day if she knew you.

5164. Wombat - 9/21/2001 1:43:28 PM

Indy:

I think the writer was attempting a satirical piece a la Jonathan Swift. The title gives it away. (At least I hope it is satirical.)

5165. LimeGirl - 9/21/2001 1:47:01 PM

Okay, I went back and read the disclaimer at the bottom...

5166. jonesatlaw - 9/21/2001 1:47:21 PM

Junior- there's a disclaimer at the bottom that indicates that it is in the spirit of "A Modest Proposal."

5167. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 1:48:22 PM

Wombat: Yes, he has a disclaimer at the bottom. I thought it was a pretty good send up of the apologists' thinking, and that's why I posted it.

5168. Cygnus X-1 - 9/21/2001 1:48:36 PM

I can see us fielding an army of warriors like Said. Here comes the terrorist army in their tankis. The Saids see it through the top of their bifocals and put down their notepads. In unison the scream, "You arre forgetting the defining characteristics of the biopolitical context that we have described up to this point! Let us lead you back to the ontology of production, we will be able to identify the new figure of the collective biopolitical body, which may nonetheless remain as contradictory as it is paradoxical!"
SQUASH
The victors write a new history.

5169. Andonly - 9/21/2001 1:49:39 PM

More Q&A from Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood:

"Q: Is it allowed for the Muslims to have Multiple States ?

Ikhwan believe that Islamic states should unite, that is the final goal, but for Ikhwan can't change the universe all at one time, if two Islamic states are established rushing into unity may lead to a fast break up, Ikhwan believe that high level cooperation should be achived, then next step is the merging.

Q: What is the view of Ikwan on the foreign policy of the Islamic state?

High level cooperation with Other Islamic states to lead to unity, supporting Islamic changes in thier muslim states and support Ismaists all arround the world. Apply shari'a to the forign policy.

Q: What will the Ikwan do when the regimes formally sign peace with the Jews, will they remain in Parliament and give more legitimacy to these regimes?

Yes they probably will, but they continue to fight these treaties and if they can they will cancel them inshallah.

Q: Are you saying that if a government overthrow brings an "Islamic" state in Egypt, Bosnian and Iraqi problems will be solved right away ?!!

No, but it will put us on the way to solving these problems! Ikhwan beleive that the reason for our misery today is that we do not obey Allah and we do not follow his laws and his orders. An islamic state will inshallah put us on the right path.

5170. Indiana Jones - 9/21/2001 1:50:25 PM

This is one give-away:

Ask yourself when is the world going to pay attention to laments of the Palestinian mother crying over her dead child? Is she any less human than those Americans who died in the bombings? Perhaps more so, because she is part of a people who have encompassed a wider range of human experience, who have known more suffering than those who are privileged or simply lucky enough to live in the United States. When is CNN going to do a primetime special on her and her people?

5171. Andonly - 9/21/2001 2:10:05 PM

From ME Times, Egypt:

Bin Laden linked to two fundamentalist Islamic groups in Egypt
by Dina el-Beblawi CAIRO, SEPT 14

OSAMA BIN LADEN

Islamic militant Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect in this week's terrorist strikes in the United States, has had close links with two Egyptian fundamentalist groups through an Islamic movement he founded in 1998.

Both of those organizations were involved in a wave of violence in Egypt in 1992 aimed at overthrowing the regime of President Hosni Mubarak and the head of one of them, jihad, is bin Laden's right-hand man.

jihad, the Arabic word for Holy War, was responsible for the 1981 assassination of Mubarak's predecessor, Anwar Sadat.

According to the Terrorism Research Center, jihad specializes in armed attacks against high-level Egyptian government personnel, including cabinet ministers, and car-bombings against official US and Egyptian facilities.

It claimed responsibility for the attempted assassinations of then interior minister Hassan al-Alfi in August 1993 and prime minister Atef Sedky in November 1993. But it has not conducted an attack inside Egypt since 1993 and has never targeted foreign tourists there.

The second group is Jamaa Islamiya, which claimed responsibility for the 1997 massacre of 58 tourists in the southern Egyptian city of Luxor.

5172. Andonly - 9/21/2001 2:10:33 PM

Bin Laden, who has been taking refuge in Afghanistan since 1996 under the protection of the Taliban Islamic militia that now controls most of that country, is surrounded by a network of militants.

One of the best known among them is Egyptian Ayman al-Zawahri, considered to be his right-hand man.

Zawahri is head of jihad and was sentenced to death in absentia in a 1999 in a trial of several hundred Islamist leaders in Egypt. He had left the country in the 1980s after serving a three-year prison sentence for his involvement in Sadat's assassination.

jihad, also implicated in the 1998 bombing attacks on the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, joined an organization called the Front for the Liberation of Islamic Holy Places (FLIHP), formed that same year in Peshawar, Pakistan under the aegis of Bin Laden.

Jamaa Islamiya was briefly affiliated with the FLIHS before announcing in 1999 that it was renouncing recourse to violence.

Another defendant in the trial that brought Zawarhi's death sentence was Ibrahim Naggar, who revealed during interrogation what he said was Bin Laden's vision for the FLIHP and its Egyptian affiliates.

The multi-millionaire of Saudi origin allegedly called for Egyptians to drop their attacks on their own government, which he argued were too costly in financial and human terms, and to concentrate on the struggle against the United States and Israel.

Bin Laden's view was that the "Jewish lobby ran US policy and that it was behind the weakening of Muslim peoples and governments," Naggar said.

"Bin Laden set the FLIHP's objective as eradicating from Arab and Muslim lands the American hegemony through launching a guerrilla war against American and Israeli interests, not only in the Arab and Muslim world, but throughout the world," he said.

5173. concerned - 9/21/2001 2:11:31 PM

Re. 5126 -

Wombats -

Your memory is clearly defective. I criticized Clowntoon's actions wrt the US embassy bombings at the time in this very forum, and I have been particularly harsh on the Clowntoon administration's sabotage of the Iraq arms inspections process.

Perhaps you'd better consider not jumping in unasked with your ill considered and wrong headed personal insults and comments in the future.

5174. concerned - 9/21/2001 2:13:33 PM

Re. 5144 -

Case in point. After you admit that I am right and you are wrong, you can't resist the personal swipe.

5175. marjoribanks - 9/21/2001 2:13:38 PM

Andonly,

The Jamaat (Ikhwan in Egypt) is a loosely tied together international Muslim movement.

It started in the 20's in Egypt (based roughly out of Al-Azhar) but soon gained corollaries in other parts of the world especially the sub-continent (where it centered around Aligarh's equivalent of Al-Azhar).

The focus was always on education and social-service. In fact, in Egypt, until recently it was the primary source of social service, a kind of (far more efficent) parallel to what the government provides. The Jamaat (in all countries) was also generally moderate.

It is only in the last three decades or so that all the various arms have radicalized, to varying degrees. In Pakistan and India, it's still relatively moderate.

5176. Absensia - 9/21/2001 2:14:22 PM

And that wasn't a wrong headed personal insult? sigh

5177. concerned - 9/21/2001 2:19:28 PM

Of course, you
decline to mention the parts that describe the role
that the assessments given by the FBI, CIA, and the
Pentagon (none of whom were supportive of the
President) played in limiting Clinton's options, nor
do you have anything to say about the reception that
Clinton's antiterrorism legislation received in the
Republican-controlled Congress. I would also have
enjoyed your reaction if Clinton had presented
appropriation requests to fight terrorism such as
those that recently sailed through both Houses of
Congress.

Hey, moron.

I 'declined' to 'mention' a just about everything else, also. Why? I presented the link with but a single comment. Will you even try to be less dishonest in the future?

You really like to parade your inanity, don't you, Wombats?

5178. concerned - 9/21/2001 2:20:47 PM

RE. 5176 -

Absensia -

No it wasn't. Wombats has gone out of his way to personally attack me numberous times in these posts, for no reason. Who are you to say I cannot respond to that bulllshit?

5179. Wombat - 9/21/2001 2:21:06 PM

Re 5144:

Only someone who is delusionary would read that post as agreeing that you are right. Oh, that was another personal swipe. Oh well.

5180. marjoribanks - 9/21/2001 2:21:34 PM

By the way, as far as I know the Jamaat is also active in the US, and was responsible for much of the setting-up of Islamic centers (particularly in the NE) in the 50's and 60's.

5181. concerned - 9/21/2001 2:23:10 PM