1000. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:23:37 PM
Food
1001. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:23:52 PM
Rules!!!
1002. janjon - 4/20/2001 3:26:16 PM
pseudo - you do seem to have run into some especially egregious examples of American "cuisine". Based on your little list of outposts somewhere up above, we seem to run more or less in the same geographic areas in this country.
I don't profess to be a pizza affecionado, but I've eaten my share. Mostly by going to places on intention, but more than a few slices and pies in places previously unknown to me.
Never had anything as bad as you've described.
1003. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:29:07 PM
A Pashtun pizza recipe:
1) Capture a wild goat. If there are no wild goats around, your neighbor's goat will do nicely.
2) Kill the goat. If you are a real man, you'll do it with your bare hands. Save the head for the after dinner football match.
3) Build a fire. Throw headless goat into fire.
4) Drink Vodka for several hours. If you are religious, pray for several hours.
5) Serve the goat on a table.
6) After everybody has had enough goat to eat, sit around the fire and tell jokes about American pizza.
1004. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 3:32:26 PM
Message # 996
No. You were arguing that simplicity was an end in itself, a kind of gastronomic Occam's razor.
No, I wasn't.
#809
"Certain things require simple preparations."
#822
"Authenticity should take second place to simplicity if the latter means better taste."
Do these sentences contain inflexible preferences for simplicity?
I have no problems with complex spicing or complicated preparations. Some things require simplicity, in others more complexity is appropriate.
The American hamburger is too simple before grilling and too comlicated afterwards. The patty itself is just slapped together minced meat; but then the ridiculous complication comes afterward with the 25 additions inside the sandwich.
Message # 997: I am familiar with New York pizzas, and it's better than what is available elsehwere in Yankistan, but I suspect that as the Italo-Yankistanis get even farther removed from any real southern-Italianness New York pizza will become just another tray for wilted vegetables and unidentifiable meats.
I suppose that Pashtuns make good pizza too? Most of the world makes worse pizza even than the US.
Silly comparisons are still de rigueur, I suppose. Most of the world desn't eat pizza.
1005. Francis Urquhart - 4/20/2001 3:35:12 PM
Chicago deep dish style, Armands, is the best pizza I've ever had.
Pseudo is right about a burger. It goes for a hot dog too. Without the fixins, they are basically just shapes.
I prefer steak sandwiches.
1006. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 3:36:26 PM
Message # 1003 contains too many steps.
Pashtun pizza:
(1) slit the throat and makes sure the goat is fully exsanguinated before cooking.
(2) Save some of the goat to play polo with later.
(3) throw the choice bits into the fire.
(3) tear pieces off the cooked goat and throw them on nan.
Then talk about how there is so much barely edible food in Yankistan that everybody wears XXXL.
1007. CalGal - 4/20/2001 3:46:45 PM
But "fixings" aren't a sign of excess in and off themselves. One doesn't have to drown burgers in fixings. Burgers don't require anything more than lettuce, tomato, and onion. I like cheese, as well. That's hardly extreme. If the burger is badly cooked, all the fixings won't save it. So clearly the burger is critical to the meal.
I eat hotdogs only with mustard and a roll. Anything else is unnecessary.
1008. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 3:47:48 PM
Best steak I've ever had anywhere I've eaten...Texas.
Best steak restaurants I've eaten at:
Ruth's Criss in Newport Beach, CA.
III Forks in Dallas, TX.
Del Friscos in Dallas, TX.
I've tried steak in every state I've been. Also in Mexico, Canada, Dominican Republic, England, France, Germany, Belgium, and South Africa.
1009. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 3:48:55 PM
The worst burgers I've had were in:
England, Dominican Republic, South Africa.
1010. CalGal - 4/20/2001 3:48:59 PM
Ruth's Criss is a chain, I believe. But then, I've never thought chains to be automatically evil.
Best steak I've ever had I cooked myself.
1011. Erin R. - 4/20/2001 3:49:56 PM
Just as we're getting more decent weather in Chicago, I am taking off for Orlando, where it will be close to ninety during the time I'm there.
1012. ElliottRW - 4/20/2001 3:51:36 PM
My wife claims the best steak she ever had was the one she cooked following a recipe she saw on the cooking show "Good Eats."
1013. CalGal - 4/20/2001 3:52:17 PM
Erin,
Ick. And they have very little in the way of decent restaurants.
1014. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:53:12 PM
Morton's is chain, and the one's I've been to in NYC, DC, and SF were all good.
1015. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 3:54:37 PM
Cal Gal,
It is a chain like The Palm or Morton's of Chicago. I've been to a few of them and the one in Newport Beach was the best.
My husband can cook a great steak, but his friend Steve can cook a better one complete with marinated mushrooms.
1016. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 3:57:48 PM
I am incapable of grilling a steak to perfection, but since I eat it at least once a week, I know what I like and when it's well made. Besides, having someone else prepare it for you is more fun. I've never understood places like "The Butcher Shop" where you go, pick out your steak, and then grill it yourself.
I'd rather have someone else do it!
1017. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 3:58:18 PM
Is The Butcher Shop a chain, too?
1018. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 4:02:21 PM
I am sure you pour over your fine meats that liquid excrement with the alphabetical-numerical name I forget what.
1019. Erin R. - 4/20/2001 4:02:39 PM
Oddly, there is a Ruth's Cris and I think a Morton's here, too.
1020. CalGal - 4/20/2001 4:03:58 PM
I've never heard of it.
I'm fussy about steaks. I do 7 minutes on each side, usually, a good thick porterhouse. Porterhouse is my favorite steak, although New York does nicely in a pinch, and ribeyes are nothing to complain about. I love prime rib, but I never really think of that as steak.
I prefer tenderloin roasted, chilled, and sliced. Never been much of a fan of it as steak, although I'll certainly chow it down if it shows up.
1021. CalGal - 4/20/2001 4:05:03 PM
Never heard of Butcher Shop, I mean. I know of Ruth and Morton's.
1022. Fielding - 4/20/2001 4:07:52 PM
"I've never understood places like "The Butcher Shop" where you go, pick out your steak, and then grill it yourself."
Didn't Saturday Night Live have an old sketch where Dan Aykroyd would go on about "killing it, cutting it, cooking it" all yourself and then Gilda Radner came out with a chainsaw?
1023. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 4:11:59 PM
PE,
How I like my steak:
A choice cut with a small amount of marbeling to ensure taste and tenderness. It is grilled over flame (some flame like Hickory or Mesquite are okay, but I like to taste more of the meat), a small amount of marination, sometimes a few sprinkles of freshly cracked pepper, and the steak cooked medium rare. It must be sizzling when served and it better be juicy.
I usually like it accompanied with asparagus and mushrooms and a nice red wine.
1024. Erin R. - 4/20/2001 4:13:59 PM
I'm not a big steak eater, but I don't mind them every once and a while. Though I actually prefer prime rib.
1025. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 4:14:41 PM
PE - I am sure you pour over your fine meats that liquid excrement with the alphabetical-numerical name I forget what.
I think you've mistaken tv commercials for reality.
1026. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 4:15:38 PM
Erin - I'm not a big steak eater
Do you prefer small steaks?
1027. Erin R. - 4/20/2001 4:16:52 PM
I'm a steak eater who isn't very big.
1028. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 4:17:44 PM
A-1 is used by my husband's 85 year old grandmother, who cannot taste anything unless it is covered in massive amounts of salt.
1029. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 6:09:34 PM
Erin - I gotcha. So when are your travels going to bring you down to St Louis?
1030. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 6:11:13 PM
I wonder why it seems everyone here is on a food kick today. There have been a couple extended discussions of food, restaurants, markets, etc. in different threads. I guess everyone is just hungry.
1031. Ms. No - 4/20/2001 7:00:35 PM
The archived thread Travels with Pseudoerasmus now has a link to a cleaned up page with full color photos which were no longer visible in the Archives due to Geocities' policy change.
1032. jexster - 4/20/2001 8:48:44 PM
1033. jexster - 4/20/2001 8:50:08 PM
oops...
Sorry JJ...
Speaking of St. Louis...Musial's and Fried Buffalo (fish) in Alton, IL plus a damned good Italian place just north of downtown...can't remember the name...
1034. jexster - 4/20/2001 8:52:29 PM
And speakin again of St. Louis and Alton...Lock & Dam 26...I was one of the lawyers for the builder of that Lock.
In fact, I was there when the Missouri flooded, flooding the Mississippi, and the construction site and the cofferdam wherein my client was building the lock below river level
1035. dusty - 4/20/2001 9:20:24 PM
I've been in the lock at Alton—I suspect few others can (or perhaps would want to) make that claim.
1036. dusty - 4/20/2001 9:22:14 PM
I suppose PE wouldn't approve, but I just finished home-made turkey, mashed potatoes, green peas, cranberry sauce, and a nice garden salad.
1037. joezan - 4/20/2001 11:09:03 PM
As far as butcher shops go, I've got to say that, per capita, there are at least 5 times as many here in the Michigan wilds as I ever found anywhere in NY. And while you may occasionally have to return later in the day to pick up an unusual cut, most of them have no problem accommodating such requests.
And sausage?
Most of the shops here specialize in it - and will make it from just about anything you like. You haven't lived till you've had Italian tomato and basil sausage made from fresh venison.
1038. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:33:02 PM
Dusty...
It was ultra cool to see it built...went there at least once a month from LA during construction most of which took place in a cofferdam from which the Mississippi was pumped out. I'll never forget the barges moving along the river while I was on the actual riverbed.
The Fried Buffalo -emminently forgetable.
But St. Louis...for a small city, not half bad IMO
1039. JJBiener - 4/21/2001 12:10:37 AM
Jex - I hate to break it to you, but Musial's is gone. We still have great Italian food. Tony's is probably the best for upscale cuisine. Kemoll's runs a close second in that category. If you go down to The Hill on the south side Zia's, Charlie Gitto's and Angelos are all reasonably priced and very good. Viviano's is the best Italian market on The Hill, and the Missouri Bakery is the best place for baked goods.
If I were picking a city to visit, I would choose San Francisco, but when picking a place to live, it is hard to beat St. Louis.
1040. JJBiener - 4/21/2001 12:13:05 AM
Dusty - I don't think PE is able to appreciate the subtle flavor of a well-prepared turkey. When it is done right, it is hard to find anything better. To be fair though, when turkey is overcooked, there is little worse.
1041. jexster - 4/21/2001 12:20:50 AM
Tony's THAT's the ONE I wwas thinkin of!
And yes, I think StL is a fine city...much to my surprise, I must admit.
1042. dusty - 4/21/2001 9:08:55 AM
I had lunch at Charlie Gitto's a couple weeks ago.
Had the fried ravioli. They claim to be the place that created the dish.
1043. jexster - 4/21/2001 10:39:09 AM
Yea fried ravioli! I'd forgotten that. Aaaah St. Louis!
1044. jexster - 4/21/2001 12:57:33 PM
Best Italian Restaurant in SF
Acquerello
1722 Sacramento Street, San Francisco, CA (Between Polk and Van Ness Avenues)
This romantic restaurant is confidently and graciously steered by chef and owner Suzette Gresham. Now in its eighth year, Acquerello has hit its stride with a changing Italian-inspired menu that may include stuffed carpaccio, roasted sea bass with champagne grapes, and imaginative bruschettas. The waiters will guide you expertly and amicably through the wine list and specials.
1045. jexster - 4/21/2001 1:28:02 PM
This morning in SF... 
1046. ScottLoar - 4/21/2001 1:38:32 PM
re Message # 1044: Is that your own review? Or a review if quoted should be offset by quotation marks?
1047. labwabbit - 4/21/2001 1:40:12 PM
That isn't a real picture of SF either...the sky appears to be blue.
1048. alistairconnor - 4/22/2001 4:49:35 PM
In the case of goat testicles, as far as I'm concerned they can be authentically appreciated far better on a live goat.
!! Matter of taste eh...
Tout les goûts sont dans la nature...
1049. PelleNilsson - 4/22/2001 4:53:50 PM
Goat testicles taste like any other tripe.
1050. JJBiener - 4/22/2001 5:26:44 PM
Pelle - Goat testicles taste like any other tripe.
I didn't think the testicles came from anywhere near where tripe comes from. I realize my knowledge of goat anatomy is not very strong, so correct me if I am mistaken.
1051. alistairconnor - 4/22/2001 5:28:05 PM
But eating them raw on a live goat! Marj is a real man. I think he should be made an honorary Pashtooon.
(By the way, Pelle, I think you mean "offal", generic term for bits of animal cadavers other than muscle, rather than "tripe", which is intestines).
1052. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 11:00:59 AM
My appreciation of testicles on a live goat is purely aesthetic and generally from a healthy distance. Goats is mean, if my childhood traumatizations are any general indicator.
1053. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 11:02:34 AM
In Portugal once, I saw an inept translation on a menu of an item as "beef prick". That too, is an item to be better appreciated on a live animal, and preferably by a female of the species.
1054. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 11:07:21 AM
There is that old joke about a man in Spain who dined at a restaurant near a corrida. He asked for the most expensive special of the day and was presented with a pair of succulent, hefty, meatballs. Having enjoyed them, he asked what it was. "The testicles of the slain bull from today's bullfight", he was told.
Since he'd really enjoyed them, the man returned another day and asked for the special and consumed the same thing. Then again.
On his last day, he showed up and asked for the special once more. And was rather surprised when he was presented with two tiny versions of the meatballs, far less tasty than the ones he'd consumed the previous days.
"What happened," he asked, "why are these so inferior"?
"Senor," the restauranteur answered, "today, the bull won."
1055. Fielding - 4/23/2001 12:18:37 PM
(By the way, Pelle, I think you mean "offal", generic term for bits of animal cadavers other than muscle, rather than "tripe", which is intestines).
I have always understood "tripe" to be lungs.
1056. Wombat - 4/23/2001 12:30:05 PM
Tripe:
Stomach lining of cows. What it lacks in taste it makes up for in sliminess and chewiness.
1057. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 12:44:03 PM
Offals are awful.
I'm not a fan of innards or spare parts.
1058. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2001 12:50:51 PM
I think that when served in restaurants it is lungs and spleen.
1059. JJBiener - 4/23/2001 12:59:07 PM
Pelle - Really? I have read a lot about cooking and I have never heard of the word tripe used that way. It has always referred to the stomach lining.
1060. Wombat - 4/23/2001 12:59:34 PM
There's some Greek spit-roasted item that has innards chopped and wrapped in intestines. It is delicious, but the digestive aftereffects are appalling (like with haggis, only worse).
In general, I will eat innards beyond liver and kidneys if I cannot actually see what they are (were). I would not knowingly eat testicles (a little too close to home) or brains.
Seafood is a different story, although sea cucumber is fairly nasty.
1061. janjon - 4/23/2001 1:04:25 PM
from this frying pan to another fire. Wombat - I linked an article in American Politics from today's Times about an impending policy decision as to whether to proceed with new howitzers at the tune of about $11 billion. I just mentioned in a post that I would be especially interested in your views about the long-term planning concerns that are relevant to this decision. Hope you will go over and respond.
As for this discussion currently underway here, how is it that people can differ in their distastes between eating, say, a cow's kidney as opposed to slabs of its muscles.
1062. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 1:08:09 PM
I tried calf brains in Washington many years ago. I didn't care for the flavor or the pasty/grainy texture...I'm turning green as we speak.
I have a hard time eating things like escargot, liver, kidney, haggis, blood sausage, tongue, etc.
I would never eat testicles or placenta or ovaries --talk about disgusting!
I'll steak to steak, breast, leg, back and shoulder.
1063. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 1:10:58 PM
Janjon,
Perhaps it's because I grew up on more common cuts (chicken breasts instead of chicken livers, etc) or maybe it's because most innards have a truly terrible taste imo. Whatever the reason, there are certain parts of animals that I don't like to east and that I find disgusting.
Geese feet for example. I could not last in Thailand.
1064. JJBiener - 4/23/2001 1:11:22 PM
janjon - The purpose for which an animal uses an organ has something to do with it. Muscle is relatively innocuous. Kidneys are filtration organs and produce urea. Ick.
1065. janjon - 4/23/2001 1:11:27 PM
It is a fine line, for sure.
Speaking as one who now stays away from all red (and increasingly most white) meats, I find the psychology of what is an acceptable part of an animal and what is not to be fascinating. Obviously mostly a matter of acclimatization and the standards of a given locale.
One man's delicacy is another's prized pet.
1066. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 1:11:44 PM
Please do not include escargot in a list with organ meat...
1067. janjon - 4/23/2001 1:13:22 PM
Yes, I can see where the use of certain of the organs would provide a rationale for shunning same.
For instance, how in the world can anyone eat another animal's liver when we now know all to well that one of the liver's functions is to stop and store to the extent not eliminatable various toxic substances.
1068. sakonige - 4/23/2001 1:15:38 PM
Ick. All kinds of meat sounds disgusting to me today, even fish. I must have eaten too much protein over the weekend.
1069. JJBiener - 4/23/2001 1:15:40 PM
janjon - I am also hesitant to eat tongue because I am not sure I want to taste something that can taste me back. (G)
1070. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 1:16:01 PM
Judith,
I included escargot because it has the same effect on me. I think about what escargot are...snails, and it makes it hard for me to eat.
Octopus has the same effect because of the tentacles and texture. I could never eat pickled pigs feet or eyeballs either.
Oddly enough, eel sushi is my favorite (unagi--sp?)
1071. labwabbit - 4/23/2001 1:16:28 PM
Please do not include escargot in a list with organ meat...
Geez Judith...nothing like leaving the door open.
1072. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 1:18:22 PM
I'm going to stop now while I'm feeling only partially queasy.
1073. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 1:19:37 PM
I don't eat most of the things mentioned not because of any philosophy per se but because I find the textures repugnant. For instance, I love cow's tongue. The fact that it is a tongue doesn't stop me from enjoying it.
Having said that, I once enjoyed half a meal of frogs legs (in India) thinking it was some small bird, perhaps pheasant or guinea fowl. When I was told by the gleeful host what it was, and where and how he caught and killed them, my appetite disappeared. I couldn't even finish the half-eaten portion on my plate.
1074. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 1:20:23 PM
Jen:
Do you mean the fresh water eel? I love that, too!
Of course, snails are tasty but if you really think about what some food WAS before you eat it, I wonder how you can eat eggs? Embryos?
1075. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 1:20:39 PM
High on list of the most gross things I've eaten is sea cucumber. The very thought of the soup in which i sampled them makes me gag reflexively.
1076. janjon - 4/23/2001 1:40:08 PM
sea cucumber is such an innocuous name for such a revolting creature. Some p.r. firm earned its money on that one, eh? (not that there is a huge market for sea cucumbers out there, but hey - it all adds up.)
I for one put sea urchins (same family as sea cucumbers I think) into the same category of disgusting. But, that will entice stone-throwing in my direction from some around here.
1077. Wombat - 4/23/2001 1:44:27 PM
Cooked sea cucumbers are green(ish)on the outside and white(ish) on the inside. Too gelatinous for me.
1078. janjon - 4/23/2001 1:45:25 PM
being too gelatinous is just one of their sins.
1079. CalGal - 4/23/2001 1:55:51 PM
I dislike tongue because of the texture. Texture and smell are my main reasons for refusing food. I can usually override repugnance over body part if it passes these two tests.
1080. ScottLoar - 4/23/2001 2:17:52 PM
"Sea cucumber" is a euphemism for sea slug, and I don't know why the pretense because damned few Westerners eat them.
1081. ScottLoar - 4/23/2001 2:18:48 PM
By the way, 90% of the sea slugs consumed in Singapore come from West Africa.
Thought that'd make your day.
1082. labwabbit - 4/23/2001 2:24:33 PM
Sea cucumbers are big money items to many independant divers. They get many yen for their efforts I understand.
I tasted some for the first time last year sauteed in some garlic-butter concoction and some deep fried in small chunks served with some kind of honey mustard garnishing. Wasn't bad..I have eaten much worse. Best though if eaten when one is hungry and not for "dining experience" reasons.
1083. jexster - 4/23/2001 2:28:21 PM
I had some excellent sea slugs in Hong Kong. Some out of the way restaurant recommended by the secretaries in the office where I was working. Went by myself and ordered everything I could never get in SF.
I had so much food, the waitresses gathered at the door giggling.
1084. jexster - 4/23/2001 2:30:06 PM
The best French Restaurant in SF, IMO though I hear that the French Laundry in Napa rulz....For those who think ambience should equal food at these prices the reviewer does have a point.
For me the food is all.
LA FOLIE
With the addition of a second dining room, this increasingly elegant restaurant has moved into four-star land. Roland Passot has always been an extraordinary cook, but now the interior almost comes up to the standard set by his modern French food. In addition to the very expensive a la carte menu, Passot features a four-course discovery menu ($75) and a vegetable lover's menu ($55).
1085. ScottLoar - 4/23/2001 2:32:25 PM
I eat snail, tongue, frog legs, sea slugs, marrow, and pig ears, all of which are superior to moldy cheese. I do not like liver or peas or lima beans only for reason of the revolting taste. Yes, I would try whale blubber if offered, and green sea turtle is the single best meat I've ever had. Much, much better than dog.
1086. jexster - 4/23/2001 2:35:43 PM
I hear that you can get monkey brains in skull in HK....that might be my limit. MIGHT
1087. Wombat - 4/23/2001 2:36:07 PM
ScottLoar:
Cheese that has mold added or cheese that has been sitting around so long that it has become moldy?
I love what we call "stanky" cheeses at la casa Wombat: Gorgonzola; runny Brie; ripe Camembert; Stilton (unpasteurized preferred).
1088. labwabbit - 4/23/2001 2:37:31 PM
I do not like green eggs and ham.
1089. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 2:48:16 PM
Well, i've never been to SF. But by reputation alone, Chez Panisse is the Mecca of restaurants in the area. Alice Waters is revered everywhere, including (if Adam Gopnik is right) Paris.
I've rec'd a cookbook freebie (I cultivate a friend at Food and Wine magazine) of recipes culled from the top 25 cookbooks of the year according to them. It contains mini-chapters on both the French Laundry and Chez Panisse. Both places sound downright wonderful.
1090. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 2:49:49 PM
Also cited (if anyone's interested) are SF's Rose Pistola and Napa's Tra Vigne. The former sounds particularly interesting.
1091. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 2:51:13 PM
Gorgonzola; runny Brie; ripe Camembert; Stilton (unpasteurized preferred).
Oh yum! I love all those...best gorgonzola I ever had was on a picnic in Trieste; we bought all the goodies in our hosts hometown of Pordenone and drove to Trieste for the day. Gorgonzola, mortadella, crusty bread, chianti...food for the gods!
1092. Fielding - 4/23/2001 2:53:29 PM
As I said last week, Sea Urchin roe is my favorite food.
I don't see how someone can have a texture complaint about tongue, unless it is prepared in a way that I haven't experienced. Sliced tongue in a sandwich has the texture of extremely tender thinly-sliced ham.
The only organs that I won't eat are brains and genitals (Woody Allen's two favorite organs).
Escargot (snails) is delicious, and to me, no more horrifying than eating rabbit or veal.
Foie Gras is about as good as food gets, but I do have issues with its production, although not so much that I don't eat it whenever given the chance.
Has anyone here ever tried ortolans? They are tiny bite-sized french birds that you eat whole. I've always wanted to try one, but they are very hard to find.
1093. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:00:03 PM
They're gross, and no you do not eat them whole.
I've been served them twice at formal French sit-down dinners. You have to chew on the carcass to detach the minimal amount of flesh and then spit (delicately) out the chewed-up mass of bones into your specially provided napkin.
I passed on them the second time.
1094. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:01:16 PM
Imagine being served a roasted sparrow. That's an ortolan, no better and even worse than it sounds.
1095. CalGal - 4/23/2001 3:03:18 PM
But by reputation alone, Chez Panisse is the Mecca of restaurants in the area.
Not really. It would certainly make the top 20 in the area regularly, but is no guarantee to come in first on anyone's list, much less as a Mecca anymore.
However, Jex spoke of SF restaurants, not the Bay Area.
Cheese: I like Brie and Camembert soft, but not smelly. Gorgonzola's smell doesn't bother me.
1096. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:10:09 PM
I should have said, that's an ortolanS.
It's an eating experience that you pretty much have to be a Frenchman of a certain age to enjoy, I think. Certainly there is absolutely noting remarkable to recommend the experience otherwise except perhaps for the joys involved in getting a second napkin.
1097. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2001 3:30:11 PM
I have no problems at all with liver. Liver Anglaise is a very tasty dish of small chunks of liver, bacon, capers and a light cream sauce. I like kidney and tongue too but my wife doesn't som I'm deprived for long periods.
1098. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 3:31:40 PM
WHALE BLUBBER (as "whale bacon") Is absolutely amazing, and one must wish that Japan would continue to hunt whales and fuck the international treaties & conventions and pressures.
1099. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 3:32:17 PM
my favourite organ meat: heart of beef
1100. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 3:34:10 PM
You have to chew on the carcass to detach the minimal amount of flesh and then spit (delicately) out the chewed-up mass of bones into your specially provided napkin.
First you must bite off the head, consume it, and then suck on the remaining carcass for its essences. Then and only then masticate the rest of the body for the flesh.
1101. Fielding - 4/23/2001 3:35:57 PM
Thanx Banks.
I had heard that there is this elaborate French ritual for placing the napkin over your head while you crunch down on them. I never heard that they didn't taste good.
1102. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:38:47 PM
Well, I didn't know it was considered de rigeur to eat the heads. I probably wouldn't even have eaten the first one then.
But I think you may be wrong. The heads were spit out first by the people closest to me. I vividly remember the beaks.
1103. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 3:39:08 PM
First you must bite off the head, consume it, and then suck on the remaining carcass for its essences. Then and only then masticate the rest of the body for the flesh.
Sounds like you're eating crawfish.
1104. Fielding - 4/23/2001 3:39:09 PM
I also get into strong smelling cheeses. Unfortunately, the best ones don't get into the US because of funky regulations. Pont L'Evecque, from Normandy, is a foul smelling but delicious cheese.
Good wine and good cheese each improve the flavor and experience of the other.
1105. rubberducky - 4/23/2001 3:40:42 PM
Re: Message # 1095, CalGal.
Not really. It would certainly make the top 20 in the area regularly, but is no guarantee to come in first on anyone's list, much less as a Mecca anymore.
yes, i'm sure it's no Warf.
*smirk*
1106. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:42:28 PM
I don't eat organ meats as a rule, of anything. But I did have a magnificent meal of Peking Duck at the (aptly named) Beijing Duck restaurant in beijing which served up courses of every single bit of the duck it seemed. And among them was duck heart. It was delicious. But I was in a mood to try anything served me that whole trip.
I doubt if I'd try them if offered to me now.
BTW, on the same trip (as I've described here before) I ate a gross portion of fish stomachs with white fungus, and a superb portion of live -though cooked - carp.
1107. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:44:33 PM
A recent issue of F&W magazine reviewed a restaurant in Chicago, of all places, that specializes in live sashimi. Now that is also something I'd be loath to try.
Apparently the place first opened in LA but was driven out by horrified Californians.
1108. Fielding - 4/23/2001 3:45:16 PM
There's a sushi bar in New York that serves fish that are still alive. You actually pluck flesh from the fish while its heart still beats. Its a little too much for me to consider.
1109. Fielding - 4/23/2001 3:46:36 PM
Chez Panisse is the first place I wanted to try when I visited SF ten years ago. Now I've been there, it was fine (but nothing special) and I have no desire to go back.
1110. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 3:48:51 PM
But at its best sashimi is supposed to be consumed while the fish is still alive. If you go to one of those outrageously expensive traditional restaurants in Japan ("ryotei"), the fish is brought out to you quite vigorously flapping and the chef slices out those tasty bits without instantly killing the fish.
1111. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2001 3:49:17 PM
marj
You also don't eat Foie Gras?
1112. rubberducky - 4/23/2001 3:49:51 PM
Re: Message # 1110, pseudoerasmus.
that is one of the nastiest fucking things i've ever heard.
1113. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:51:21 PM
Iron Chef regularly features live animals being slaughtered/sliced/hacked on camera and sometimes it's a bit much. Watching a man gleefully saw off the tentacles of a struggling octopus but what was actually a bit worse was the footage of lobsters being halved with a cleaver even as they scuttled about the cooking table.
1114. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 3:51:24 PM
Haven't ever eaten oysters? They're usually served still alive. You are supposed to eat them alive.
1115. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 3:52:21 PM
Message # 1113: I didn't realise you had such a.....Jainistic concern for edible animals.
1116. janjon - 4/23/2001 3:52:35 PM
A potpouri of comments.
Isn't it illegal to kill (thus, to eat) ortolans in France?
The French Laundry is almost worth the expense and effort. Certainly the most sophisticated place in the U.S. I've been to (and that includes most of the top tier jobbies in NYC).
Chez Panisse is well worth going to. Considering how long it has been around, it still holds up well. And, that heritage....
1117. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:53:26 PM
According to the owner of this restaurant, the fish passes out "from shock" when an incision is made above its tail. This helpfully allows you to slice and present its flesh while it still remains alive and moving.
BTW, Iron Chef also featured footage of live eels being nailed to a board by the head and then skinned while still squirming.
1118. janjon - 4/23/2001 3:54:11 PM
pseudo is dead on correct, of course, about oysters and freshly shucked clams. Who in hell would eat them if they weren't alive. The fact that they are inert even when alive is probably why people don't think of that aspect.
1119. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2001 3:54:30 PM
The Masai of Kenya and Tanzania are said to cut out pieces of their cows for consumption on festive occassions. They don't kill them because normally the Masai live from milk and cow's blood.
1120. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:55:21 PM
I love foie gras, but cannot bring myself to eat it (not for ethical reasons) more than a couple of times a year. I do have quite a bit of it stocked in various pate forms in my larder and cannot resist buying some everytime I visit French duty-free.
1121. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 3:56:43 PM
Jainist is not a bad way to put it. For someone who actually loves meat and fish, and eats lot of it, I'm very squeamish. Purely for aesthetic reasons, of course.
1122. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 3:59:23 PM
Frog legs are okay except for when they're prepared in such a way that any skin is left remaining. The last time I had them, the chef left the amphibious feet on. Green skin and all.
1123. Fielding - 4/23/2001 4:00:10 PM
Its hard to work up as much sympathy for an oyster as for an animal higher on the food chain.
1124. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:02:34 PM
Anyone remember the scene in Withnail and I where the lads are presented with a live chicken for supper? They slaughtered it, eventually. If it were me, unless I had absolutely no option whatsoever I'd have stayed vegetarian and the chicken would have become a good buddy.
1125. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 4:07:14 PM
Dallas' own five-star Mansion on Turtle Creek, a superb restaurant known nation wide.
The Mansion on Turtle Creek has been honored as the number one hotel in the U.S. by Zagat Survey. In addition, The Mansion has been rated Mobil Five-Star and AAA Five-Diamond for 11 consecutive years. 
1126. Wombat - 4/23/2001 4:07:45 PM
Since frog's legs taste like chicken, I'll stick to chicken. More meat on them bones!
Speaking of chicken, the Scottish university I went to was very economical when it came to buying food for the student dining halls. It bought chicken that had been fed on fish meal (ground-up, dried fish remains). Some things may taste like chicken, but in this case, the chicken tasted like fish.
1127. CalGal - 4/23/2001 4:09:41 PM
Chez Panisse is well worth going to. Considering how long it has been around, it still holds up well. And, that heritage....
Yes, that I agree with. I did say it would rate in the top 20 of the area, which is no small achievement in San Francisco and I'm sure most food critics would put it in the top ten.
Ducky,
Hyuk.
1128. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 4:18:39 PM
Jen:
Some of Dean Fearings recipes are really easy...seems a shame to pay so much for them after he shows you how to do it on the early morning news.
1129. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 4:21:18 PM
You pay for the ambiance. I love his lobster tacos and he was gracious enough to come out to our table and talk to us about them.
Many of his recipes are on the link I provided.
I'm thinking of taking Marshame there for Mother's Day.
1130. ScottLoar - 4/23/2001 4:22:46 PM
re Message # 1086: You heard wrong; that's another urban myth.
1131. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 4:23:43 PM
WARM LOBSTER TACO WITH YELLOW TOMATO SALSA AND JICAMA SALSA 
1132. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:28:50 PM
I wonder if Pseuder or anyone else knows the best brand of Japanese green tea ice-cream available in the USA. My supermarket has like a dozen varieties and I want something superlative.
I've decided to try and replicate a green tea ice-cream and warm chocolate cake dessert that I had at the local Japanese restaurant. It was brilliant.
1133. Fielding - 4/23/2001 4:30:57 PM
Which New York supermarket has a dozen brands of Green tea ice cream?
1134. Fielding - 4/23/2001 4:32:05 PM
Jen:
That looks pretty decadent. And here I was getting ready to offer to get crawfish with you.
1135. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:32:29 PM
I don't live in NYC, Fielding. The supermarket is called Worldmart Food International and is in Jersey City. Worth the PATH trip just to check it out.
1136. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 4:32:44 PM
I don't know anything about Japanese foodstuffs available in Yankistan.
But it's easy to make green tea ice cream. Just get some maccha and mix. Of course maccha is ceremonial tea, not the usual green tea.
1137. ScottLoar - 4/23/2001 4:33:17 PM
Dozens does seem a stretch. I know a Japanese supermarket outside Chicago that carries only one brand of green tea ice cream, wrapped in rice dough as small cakes if you will. Unfortunately, I've thrown away that empty package.
1138. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:35:58 PM
I've seen those small dollops of green tea ice-cream too.
Pseuder,
I've tried making ice-cream. The results were most unsatisfactory. But why make it when you can get a superior product easily?
1139. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:37:40 PM
The ice-cream maker I once bought is the most useless (and least used) appliance in my kitchen, along with the pasta-maker and (slightly better used) rice cooker.
1140. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 4:38:43 PM
But why make it when you can get a superior product easily?
Maybe he's feeling "martha stewart" today.
1141. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:38:46 PM
Believe me, gentlemen, this place has many brands of green tea ice-cream. Not that I've counted exactly, but dozen does seem to be fairly accurate.
1142. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 4:44:07 PM
Perhaps this is no longer as esoteric as I would have imagined, given all the amazing and incredible proliferation of Japanese foodstuffs in the metropolitan centres of Yankistan, but if you want to try a relatively unknown area of Japanese cuisine, try osechiryori -- the array of foods associated with New Year's festivities. They are served in black lacquer trays piled atop one another, and contain kuromame (sweet stewed black soybeans), kamaboko (fish paste), datemaki (sweet cake of egg & mashed shrimp), kazunoko (herring roe), ozoni soups (many different kinds but typical is a broth of bonito & soy sauce with soft, gooey rice cakes); and about two dozen other dishes usually not eaten except during the New Year's season.
Have any of you ever had omochi?
1143. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 4:45:41 PM
osechiryori tastes completely different from other Japanese foods. It's generally sweet.
1144. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 4:50:25 PM
I've had omochi, though your question wasn't directed at me.
Well, I've had it if you mean the soft rice cakes..mochi.
1145. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:51:11 PM
Sounds interesting, though sweetness isn't my favorite thing when it comes to things made as you describe. What immediately appeals is your description of the presentation. Japanese presentation is so much part of the appeal of a sit-down meal (or even fast food a la bento boxes).
Of the dishes themselves, the Japanese fish paste could be intriguing. I'm into fish pastes right now having experimented with a tuna tapenade that turned out okay (much room for improvement).
1146. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 4:51:38 PM
Message # 1139: Because the commercial kinds available use inferior, tasteless maccha. The whole point is to contrast the viscous, grainy bitterness of the maccha with the sweetness of the ice cream. But the maccha used in commercial ice cream is not bitter enough. You should get the best vanilla ice cream available, and mix with the maccha that you like best. Recommended maccha: tenno zan.
1147. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:52:20 PM
When is Japanese New Year anyway?
1148. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 4:53:46 PM
1 January
1149. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:55:58 PM
Duly noted your 1146.
What I liked about the green tea ice cream I ate at Komegashi Too (the restaurant near me) was that it wasn't quite as harshly bitter as the other green tea ice creams I've tried. But I will try your suggestion before resigning myself to the commercial grade of ice-cream. In fact, I will try it today since I'm off to the supermarket in half an hour.
1150. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 4:56:12 PM
it would be better to make it from scratch, and not use vanilla ice cream, but I love vanilla ice cream simply mixed with strong, thick maccha.
1151. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 4:56:28 PM
Re 1148.
How exotic.
1152. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:00:43 PM
or even fast food a la bento boxes
If you have not eaten a cold ¥300 bento box from a kiosk at a Japanese railway station, you have not yet lived. An alternative is to take the bullet train just for its bento.
1153. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 5:01:37 PM
Last question, Pseuder.
Is there such a thing as spicy Japanese food? Like really spicy, to suit say a Lahori palette or a Hunanese palette?
1154. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 5:03:24 PM
Believe me, I want to eat "fast food" in Japan very very badly. I even have relatives there who clamor for a visit. Sadly, I may miss the opportunity (they leave in two years) since I can't really see when I'll be able to carve out the time necessary.
1155. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:06:35 PM
Message # 1153: Not really. There are some small dishes (usually pickle dishes) which contain some Chinese or Korean chilis, or dishes using varieties of wasabi (such as squid pickled in white wasabi), but on the whole, no, you don't have dishes which are spicey in the subcon or Thai sense.
You can get currey ramen, though. That's not too spicy, however.
But the Japanese LOVE spicy foods -- subcon & Thai foods are very popular, and the Japanese eat kimchi endlessly.
1156. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:08:41 PM
In the US, kazunoko is served occassionally in sushi bars. I've had it a few times, and it wasn't very noteworthy.
1157. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:09:22 PM
Regarding the earlier discussion about kababs....
The Koreans have got these little patties of minced beef with large amounts of garlic and ginger, which are then deep-fried. EXCELLENT.
But what are they called?
1158. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 5:09:58 PM
Ah, thanks. When with extended family (which is now often) I am always in a minority in wanting to go out and eat Japanese food. I figured if I can find some dish to satisfy the spice-heads among us, it'd be an easier task.
1159. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:10:19 PM
I vaguely recall some controversy in Korea over Japan exporting its cheaper and inferior commercial kimchi to Korea.
1160. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:11:36 PM
My favourite fish-roe-related Japanese food item:
whole smelts, the bodies bursting with eggs, either raw or grilled.
You eat the fish whole, and they're small enough you can eat a dozen.
1161. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:14:07 PM
Never tried that. I've had smelt sushi, but not whole grilled smelts. I will look for them when I next visit Tokyo.
I'm probably going their in July. Do you have any other exotic or unusual suggestions?
1162. janjon - 4/23/2001 5:15:50 PM
fielding. You are talking only about food, right?
1163. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:19:22 PM
Right.
Although I'm always interested in hearing about whatever depravities you guys can come up with.
1164. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 5:19:26 PM
I like grilled smelt, though can't say I've ever even seen them "bursting" with eggs. Fish roe is pretty good grilled or fried, though. And I love all kinds of caviar including the oft-maligned lumpfish. Scrambled eggs and gobs of lumpfish caviar on a toasted plain bagel is one of my favorite Sunday breakfasts.
1165. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:22:41 PM
Fielding,
I'd have some mud-bugs with you. I like mine spicy with corn on the cob and boiled potatoes. You?
Pappadeaux in Dallas usually has them in abundance in March and you buy them buy the pound. Wear your jeans and a t-shirt you don't mind getting dirty.
1166. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 5:22:50 PM
Hokay, I'm off to pick up the kid and stroll the wondrous aisles of Worldmart Food International. May report back later if I manage to get that maccha and will definitely count the exact # of green tea ice-cream brands.
Later.
1167. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:23:14 PM
Those roe-filled smelts are shishamo.
Also, try a cold Japanese roast pork. Not exotic, but very different tasting from pork you would know.
Message # 1161: Go to any traditional beer bar in Tokyo, the sort frequented by representatives of Japanese labour. There is another sub-cuisine unknown to most of the world. Some of the dishes featured: raw chicken in soy sauce, raw egg, sesame seed among other things.
1168. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:26:31 PM
PE,
A friend recently returned from China. She said that while strolling through outer Beijing, she witnesed a cafe that had tanks of live snakes. One would order a drink and the waiter would spear a snake on a hook, causing the snake to bleed, the blood would be collected in a cup, and the contents were what the person drank. Warm snake blood.
Have you tried this?
1169. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:27:27 PM
Fielding, you must absolutely go find yourself COROKKE. These are Japanese variants of the croquette, but MUCH MUCH better. You must buy them in small mom-and-pop street stores when they fish the croquettes from the ocean of soybean oil, not the frozen kinds at supermarkets.
Fried foods are really among the best in Japanese cuisine, though few people associate Japanese cuisine with fried foods.
1170. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 5:27:56 PM
PE:
What is the name of the cold noodles that translate as "spring noodles"? They have a sort of sweet vinegar sauce and some thin strips of greens mixed with noodles and served cold...
1171. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2001 5:28:08 PM
Snakes are cold-bloodied animals.
1172. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:29:38 PM
Okay.(?)
Pe,
Have you ever had fresh, cold snake blood?
1173. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:31:37 PM
Jen:
"I'd have some mud-bugs with you. I like mine spicy with corn on the cob and boiled potatoes. You?"
Extra spicy. Corn on the cob sounds great. I'm not sure about potatoes, because I don't want to use any silverware. And beer. Lots of beer.
I guess this is the point where I offer to pinch your tail if you suck my head. ;-)
1174. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:33:05 PM
Also, in the middle of the night, you might hear a man of 90 or so pulling a cart and screaming "oimoooooooo!" If you hear it, you must absolutely stop whatever you're doing, including sex even if it's with Laetitia Casta, and go search for the source of the racket. At the source you must buy 'oimo' --Japanese sweet potato roasted in hot coals. The indigenous Japanese sweet potato has got flavours unkown in other kinds, and this $1 meal is simply divine.
1175. sakonige - 4/23/2001 5:33:36 PM
mmmm....they say you shouldn't shop for food while you are hungry. Now I'm in the mood to vist my neighborhood supermarket and stock up for the week.
1176. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:34:41 PM
I've eaten snake meat, but never had snake blood.
1177. sakonige - 4/23/2001 5:35:39 PM
Yum, sweet potatoes are one of my favorite foods.
1178. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:36:16 PM
Fielding,
Extra spicy and no silverware is the way to go. Eat everything with your fingers including the potatoes.
I'm not at liberty to flirt with you because I'm married and Seadate and Rosetta will come after me!;-)
1179. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:36:29 PM
I've had snake meat too. And alligator. And frog. None are special.
Turtle soup is pretty good.
1180. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:37:37 PM
Message # 1170
Japan has got dozens of different kinds of noodles which are eaten cold, from rice noodles to buckwheat noodles. I can't think of any which translate as 'spring noodles'.
1181. janjon - 4/23/2001 5:37:52 PM
I wouldn't say that Fielding was talking about acts that constitute flirting. At least in terms of what he'd be getting out of the deal.
1182. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:39:50 PM
I like snowy egret soup and my favorite dish of all time is filet of hump back whale tossed with albino Siberian tiger served in hand carved elephant ivory bowls. There are at least 2 dozen varieties of this at my local international market.
1183. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 5:40:20 PM
I've had those roasted sweet potatoes, too...absolutely fantastic; they need nothing added to be so, either.
1184. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:40:26 PM
PE:
Thanx for the suggestions. Please feel free to keep them coming.
Is that sweet potato called yamaimo? I've had yamaimo grated with tuna and seaweed. It is indeed very good. Supposedly, its an aphrodisiac as well.
I don't know if I could leave Laetitia Casta for a potato. She got really pissed last time when I was just getting a beer.
1185. JudithAtHome - 4/23/2001 5:41:47 PM
Jen, there's enough "real" food around; faux stuff isn't half as much fun.
1186. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:42:03 PM
Jen:
seadate and Rosetta are just jealous. I wouldn't pay them any mind.
1187. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:44:10 PM
janjon:
"I wouldn't say that Fielding was talking about acts that constitute flirting."
You have to pinch the tail and suck the head. There simply is no other way to eat crawfish.
1188. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:44:12 PM
Sakonige,
I love sweet potatoes and I could easily devour a warm, buttery, sweet potato pie by myself.
1189. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:45:08 PM
Fielding knows how to eat his crawdaddies.
1190. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:45:40 PM
Some of the best duck I've ever had was from the Muslim quarter of Beiing (Ganjiaku -- spelling?) where 'duck kababs' wrapped in thin flat breads are on sale by street vendors.
1191. Jenerator - 4/23/2001 5:46:55 PM
Good night all. I have no idea what I'll be having for dinner now.
Fielding,
March: Pappadeaux Dallas
1192. janjon - 4/23/2001 5:49:32 PM
fielding. I know how to eat crawfish. I also know when you are talking about crawfish and when you aren't.
Bon appetit et bon soir.
1193. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 5:50:16 PM
No, oimo and yamaimo have nothing to do with each other, and the latter is markedly inferior to the former.
1194. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:53:19 PM
What about Kobe beef and Wagyu. They have a reputation in the US, but everyone in Japan says that they are a rip-off.
1195. Fielding - 4/23/2001 5:53:45 PM
toys
1196. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2001 6:00:12 PM
There's nothing special about wagyu. It's used all the time as thinly sliced premium-beef for teppanyaki etc.
Matsuzaka is the best in the world, in my opinion, but it's outrageously expensive and it may not be worth the price. $50 a plate for a miserable portion, perhaps 6 oz.
1197. marjoribanks - 4/23/2001 6:41:54 PM
Well, I wimped out (for now) on the loose green tea. Instead I bought something called Maeda-en "restaurant quality" green tea icecream.
And I have to take back the "dozen" varieties. There were only five. The rest were other Japanese ice-creams including an intriguing looking "winter melon".
Find of the day, though, really fresh and tender green peas. I guess summer really is here. Got to think of a good way to cook them.
1198. janjon - 4/24/2001 10:12:29 AM
In my humble opinion, and it is always humble, the best way to prepare peas is to simply drop them in boiling water. And then virtually take them out again instantaneously. No more than a minute, if that. (Depending, I suppose, on the size of the pea.)
Then, just eat them. Their taste is so delicate that doing anything else to or with them just disguises it.
1199. marjoribanks - 4/24/2001 10:15:59 AM
I've already cooked them, Janjon. 3/4 went into a rather delicious kheema mutter (spicy mince with peas) and 1/4 into a chicken stew for my son.
Both items were consumed with gusto yesterday evening.
This evening, thanks to the conversations we've been having, I'm making a REAL linguine carbonara to prove to myself once again that mine is better than any restaurant around can produce.
1200. janjon - 4/24/2001 10:19:47 AM
Do that. Then, go to Po. Maybe on one of your Saturdays in the B.A. for lunch. (They are impossible to get into at night, but at lunch it is usually doable - and, they do take lunch reservations.) They have a terrific set price lunch (ridiculously inexpensive)AND ala carte (inexpensive if not ridiculously so). They don't always make spaghetti carbonara, but it is frequently on the menu.
Batali may be gone from Po, but his influence firmly remains.
It is your kind of place.
1201. marjoribanks - 4/24/2001 10:23:25 AM
Janjon,
I take your recommendations seriously. I shall do as you advise. In fact, I've realized that not having gone to any Batali restaurant at all is an unnecessary oversight.
In general, it is because I do not eat Italian outside my home (and some few other homes). I do go to one - Da Beco -but that's more of a family ritual now than anything.
I will definitely go to Po for lunch. Either this Sunday or the next. Expect my overdetailed report on the proceedings.
1202. Fielding - 4/24/2001 10:25:51 AM
If you are on an expense account, or don't mind spending a fortune, Esca is pure heaven.
1203. marjoribanks - 4/24/2001 10:31:08 AM
The times I get to use my expense account freely I generally can't go to an Italian restaurant. The people I take out (Middle Easterners, Far Easters, Brits) invariably want to either go to ostentatious French or glamorous fusion. Nobu, Tabla, Vong, etc. Occasionally I'll get some Brits to go to Aquavit.
When I'm not on an expense account I go storefront ethnic most of the time. Or cook. If you couldn't tell, I'm heavily into cooking myself and have been a cookbook junkie ever since I moved from NYC proper to a real kitchen and away from take-out heaven.
1204. marjoribanks - 4/24/2001 10:32:05 AM
For some odd reason, subcons and Arabs almost universally dislike Italian food. Don't ask me why.
1205. janjon - 4/24/2001 10:34:07 AM
Among other appetizers, they usually have a terrific jobbie which consists of fresh anchovie fillets draped over an interesting grain (the name of which escapes me). With some nice olive oil to which a bit of lemon (I think) and some subtle hot pepper flavoring, and a few bitter greens.
Outstanding.
1206. janjon - 4/24/2001 10:37:24 AM
How is Vong these days. I tried it a couple of times early on and found it woefully overpriced for the so-called value received. (I generally have found that I don't like any of Jean George Vongetc.'s restaurants that much, including his signature $$$$$$ one at what I still call the Gulf Western tower.)
By the way, he made much of his early name in New York via a sea urchin dish he concocted (quite daring at the time) at a restaurant called Lafayette in the then Drake Hotel (now the Swisshotel.)
Early hype goes a long way.
1207. marjoribanks - 4/24/2001 10:43:26 AM
Vong is now predictably decent every time around. The London one is a little more flashy, actually.
I've been to jean-georges twice, both times with my wife to eat one of those restaurant week specials. The food was spectacularly good both times. The first time, a good three years ago, I ate a fatty tuna appetizer which still almost brings tears to my eyes in memory.
BTW, I understand that Aquavit is running that lunch special ($20.01 this year) all through the summer. If this information is correct, I intend on hitting the place much more often in the next couple of months. Somehow, I think the food there goes down even better when the temperature is high.
1208. janjon - 4/24/2001 10:46:23 AM
Those lunch specials are really a great deal. In most places. (In some, they only have a limited number that they sell each day blah blah blah.)
Some places have kept the deal going through the year. Gotham comes to mind.
1209. marjoribanks - 4/24/2001 10:48:09 AM
Here's the restaurant week list from last year. Unlikely to change for this year.
Note to all out-of-towners. This $20.01 prix fixe lunch deal is a fantastic bargain at many of the very best places to eat in NYC and a good reason by itself to visit in the summer.
1210. JJBiener - 4/24/2001 11:06:44 AM
janjon - In my humble opinion, and it is always humble
I am sorry. I mistook you for someone else who posts under the name janjon.
1211. janjon - 4/24/2001 11:12:56 AM
Biener - you in particular should be thankful that I am a humble person and as such never go for the jugular.
1212. Fielding - 4/24/2001 11:56:35 AM
I have had excellent meals at Vong, JoJo and Mercer Grill. I have not yet made it to Jean-Georges.
1213. JJBiener - 4/24/2001 12:06:41 PM
janjon - I do have to give you one thing. Your point of view is unique.
1214. janjon - 4/24/2001 12:07:49 PM
Has he opened his place in Paris yet?
Speaking of such things, has anyone been to Ducasse here? Talk about cheek when he thought he was going to overwhelm us provincials with his chic. I understand that the food has gotten much better. But, the bloom is off that bud. I understand you can still get in just by walking in. That price is ludicrous.
1215. janjon - 4/24/2001 12:08:43 PM
Unique? I stand out not at all among my friends.
1216. JJBiener - 4/24/2001 12:11:38 PM
janjon - I stand out not at all among my friends
How sad for all of you.
1217. JudithAtHome - 4/24/2001 12:13:19 PM
Oh knock it off....this is about good food, not personalities. You guys look childish with this back and forth...
1218. janjon - 4/24/2001 12:20:40 PM
well, he started it and it is Biener and he is just too easy to resist.
1219. janjon - 4/24/2001 12:22:15 PM
Speaking of which, I saw a reference to the Mansion etc. Have you been there, Judith? I have no reason to go to Dallas and certainly wouldn't make a special trip around that, but is it as unique and wonderful as it claims?
1220. JudithAtHome - 4/24/2001 12:28:21 PM
I've never been but judging by opinions from people I know who have, it's pretty impressive. The chef does some local TV and he is quite charming; he shares some of his recipes and gives interesting tips on where to buy produce...he's just a Texas boy made good.
1221. janjon - 4/24/2001 12:31:27 PM
Charming (and good looking) can go a long way for chefs.
Todd English is whom I have in mind. Made a very nice name for himself with Olives in Boston. Which he has now, more or less, replicated in Las Vegas (hey its the trendy place for foodies these days) and New York.
Haven't eaten in the one in Las Vegas, but the one in New York sucks.
He's also involved with something called Figs which is a slightly better than you would expect to find in an airport place at LaGuardia.
1222. jexster - 4/25/2001 3:30:19 PM
Speaking of
FRENCH LAUNDRY
After a meal at the French Laundry, it's hard to find any other restaurant in the same class. Some critics say it's the best restaurant in the United States. Nestled in Yountville, it seems like a Michelin three-star country restaurant. Chef-owner Thomas Keller is one of the most creative cooks around, and the fixed-price menus show off his refined and sometimes whimsical style. It's so popular that even calling the required two months ahead doesn't guarantee a table.
Cuisine: French-California
Specialties: Five-course vegetable menu; tongue and cheek salad (veal tongue and braised beef cheeks); oysters and pearls (oysters and tapioca); fresh cinnamon-sugar doughnuts and cappuccino semifreddo
I'm taking up a collection....
1223. jexster - 4/25/2001 3:32:15 PM
Keller's been around SF for a while and as for "whimsical style" Passot is certainly his match.
1224. Fielding - 4/25/2001 3:37:03 PM
I haven't been to the French Laundry and I hear that it is indeed spectacular. Nonetheless, when Keller had a restaurant in New york City he was considered just a good chef and not the second coming.
1225. janjon - 4/25/2001 3:43:37 PM
As I said somewhere up above, French Laundry is almost worth the expense and effort. It is very well thought out, not overly esoteric in terms of piling on rare ingredients for the show of it, and not pretentious.
Too many other restaurants of or near its ilk have one or more of the above sins.
In my humble opinion.
1226. janjon - 4/25/2001 3:48:21 PM
marj - if you are around, today's Food Section of the NYTimes has some mouthwatering pictures of cooked oyster dishes - as served at Patria.
Also, I made my own mouth water last night, so off to Po we did go. Early (at about 6:30) on the somewhat knowing calculation that there would be a couple of tables available at that hour. Bingo. As always, fantastic. I had the anchovie dish I referred to yesterday. It was as I described, except it also included some leek slivers, and has two oils used - one with a red pepper (hot) infusion, the other with lemon. The grain they use is farro. Also had the grilled baby octopi, which are served with curly chicory, bacon bits and a balsamic based sauce. My wife had papparedelle with mint and fresh peas (mostly pureed, but with some texture.)
They did have spaghetti carbonara on the menu but since it has too many ingredients of the type(s) that I try to stay away from, I didn't bite. I know from having seen it served, however, that it is a very dry dish there.
A very nice long walk home just as it was cooling down.
Perfect.
1227. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2001 3:51:22 PM
On Saturday, we were able to glance into the lobby of the newest hotel in town and view the menu of its restaurant, which will have an Irish chef (?)...the Ashton Hotel is due to open soon, with 39 rooms starting at $230 a night. The decor is by Pottery Barn...this sounds so much like a venture doomed to failure; this is not Dallas, it's a place actually proud to be called Cowtown.
1228. thoughtful - 4/25/2001 3:52:34 PM
just thought I'd post it as I was surprised to find some web-savvy folks at work didn't know...so as a just in case, zagat's is on line at zagat.com
1229. marjoribanks - 4/25/2001 3:54:13 PM
Janjon,
I'm sold on trying out Po, your account of the meal has made me doubly so.
So Patria isn't dead. Who knew. I suppose someone took over Rodriguez's spot.
1230. janjon - 4/25/2001 3:59:47 PM
marj - the above meal (together with the asparagus appetizer my wife had, four glasses of wine cumulatively and a big bottle of water) cost $94, before tip. (Oh yes, she had a dessert too - one of their coffee/caramel sauce sodas. I've never had it, but she loves it. And I had an espresso.)
1231. marjoribanks - 4/25/2001 4:07:13 PM
Hmmm. Mid-range priciness for the kind of restaurant I assume it is.
Perhaps I'll rope in a relative for babysitting and treat the wife to a rare dinner a deux.
1232. Jenerator - 4/25/2001 4:11:09 PM
Judith,
Dallas and Ft. Worth are both "cowtowns" in a sense. You may have the stock yards, but we have all of the notoriety!
1233. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2001 4:12:21 PM
Yes, but we have the money...the old money, anyhow.
1234. janjon - 4/25/2001 4:19:48 PM
marj - at the risk of beating this poor place to death, it is just a joy. Clearly takes itself seriously in terms of the food it serves (and this reflects Batali's having apprenticed/cooked at a serious trattoria in a small town in Italy for a few years), while being unpretentious. It is small and they pack the tables in, so don't go planning on saying anything intimate to your wife. Unless you don't mind having about six other people arch their eyebrows or wink knowingly or whatever.
The only thing about it that I don't like is their irritating habit of raising the music level (at least it is good rock, not Kenny G or his ilk) when they get REALLY crowded in terms of a lot of people waiting around for tables. They've admitted they do it and they call it "burn and turn", in that it makes people eat faster/want to leave more quickly.
Enjoy.
1235. marjoribanks - 4/25/2001 4:29:25 PM
Janjon,
Rock? Maybe I'll go for lunch after all.
Anyway, congratulations, you've got me pumped to visit an Italian restaurant. Can't remember the last time that happened.
1236. Jenerator - 4/25/2001 4:50:40 PM
Judith,
There are a lot of old money families in Dallas. Surely you've been through the Turtlecreek and Normandy areas?
Go to the shopping boutiques of Preston and Lovers Ln. I dare you to find anyone under 60.
1237. janjon - 4/25/2001 4:53:13 PM
I call it Rock because I don't know better. It isn't classical, it isn't country, it isn't rap, it isn't jazz.
In my books, that makes it rock.
1238. janjon - 4/25/2001 4:54:29 PM
old money in these here parts starts, with some exceptions that go back even further, with about 120 years. Cumulatively, of course.
1239. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2001 5:07:49 PM
Jen:
I've been all over Dallas and like Fort Worth, you can't always tell where the money is...I'm not talking about old people ; I mean old money. The Basses are somewhat youthful but their money isn't.
1240. Jenerator - 4/25/2001 5:14:47 PM
The 60 year olds are the grand children. There are a lot of oil families and rancher families in Dallas. The snootery at Lady Primrose is both fun and educational, and you'll see a side of Dallas' residents you'd never see elsewhere except for there during afternoon tea.
We should go sometime, I'll wear a Raquel Welch wig to disguise myself and you can go as your fabulous self -- though you're on the young and trendy side.
[Ex-bo's family helped to found Sinclair Oil and had a place there.]
1241. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2001 5:18:33 PM
I don't care for Lady Primroses but it might be fun to people watch and giggle.
Are you worried about being seen, though? I told you about that pub crawling; knew it's get you in trouble eventually.
1242. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2001 5:19:31 PM
it'd...
1243. Jenerator - 4/25/2001 5:23:59 PM
You caught me. I pub crawl at all of the high-tea joints and antique malls!;-)
I'd only wear the wig so as to have a chic short do. The last time I was at Primrose, Crescent Court, I noticed I was the only one NOT in a shantung suit and full white hair. Granted you'll stick out too, but at least you have short hair.
1244. pseudoerasmus - 4/25/2001 6:59:44 PM
How old is old money in Dallas? 12 years? (Bush-to-Bush cycle?)
1245. Jenerator - 4/26/2001 4:10:21 PM
Middle to late 19th Century.
1246. PsychProf - 4/27/2001 6:45:56 AM
Frank...here are the only photos I could open. I'll let you add description. 
1247. PelleNilsson - 4/27/2001 9:00:28 AM
One wonders what the second picture shows. A small but official-looking house, a box-like thing to the right and a huge structure at the back. A stadium of some kind?
I have collected the Norway pictures on my site. Some of them, in particular the views and the Nidaros Cathedral, look better when they do not have to be squeezed in between the margins here. I have added a couple of pics from the interior of the ship.
1248. janjon - 4/27/2001 11:41:03 AM
Is that, perhaps, the tennis stadium towards the southern(?)edge of Paris? (Bearing the name of an individual which escapes me, but it has "Pierre" in it if I recall correctly, with the surname starting with an L.)
1249. Fielding - 4/27/2001 11:48:06 AM
Roland Garros? IIRC, Roland Garros is the smaller of the two French Open stadiums.
1250. janjon - 4/27/2001 11:55:25 AM
Yes. Roland Garros.
That is the name that rings a bell.
So much for Pierre L.
But, is that picture it?
1251. Frankster - 4/27/2001 12:22:53 PM
The first picture is yours truly with the obligatory Jim Morrison visit. I believe I sent PP a few of those.
The second one I titled "Stade of the Art ?". It's a picture of Stade de France next to the Autoroute du Nord A1 coming in from the Charles De Gualle Airport. I don't know what its seating capacity is, or what it is primaily used for ( futbol I imagine ), but I found its design unique and interesting... Something right out of the Jetsons.
1252. Frankster - 4/27/2001 12:24:37 PM
PP,
Hmmmm, I wonder why you couldn't open the rest ? I did send some other shots of Pere Lachaise.
Gotta get off line. Expecting a phone call
1253. PelleNilsson - 4/27/2001 1:39:38 PM
Oh, it's Stade de France? It was built in 1998 for the Football World Championships (which France won).
1254. PelleNilsson - 4/27/2001 2:46:25 PM
More about American wine:
Gallo Makes Inroads Into French Market
1255. Frankster - 4/27/2001 6:45:30 PM
Pelle,
Re:1253
Yes, it did appear relatively new, but I didn't get too close to examine it. I was impressed by its unique design. There about 20 towers suspending the roof, which resembles a Frisbee with a hole in it.
1256. alistairconnor - 4/30/2001 3:57:03 AM
I'm picking up my mother in Venice on the 26th. We'll wander back to the farm, taking 5 or 6 days, with stops around the Lago de Garda and in Piedmont, around Asti. I'm very much looking forward to the food and the wine (as long as they don't make us drink that fizzy stuff.)
1257. marjoribanks - 4/30/2001 11:02:22 AM
Venice. The Peidmont.
Lucky bastard.
1258. JudithAtHome - 4/30/2001 11:03:44 AM
Lago de Garda is my fave!!! Be sure to see the former home of poet and war hero....shoot, I can't recall how you spell his name! D'annuncio, something like that.
Anyhow, it's on Lago de Garda and was left by him to the Italian people...the grounds are gorgeous and his home was full of his collections; he was a very decadent man.
1259. JudithAtHome - 4/30/2001 11:04:27 AM
Left FOR the Italian people...
1260. marjoribanks - 4/30/2001 11:05:43 AM
Thanks to a promotion scheme I took advantage of last year, I have two free tickets to use anywhere in the world by this June.
Can you believe that I am most probably not going to have a chance to use them? And that I'm going to have to let them expire?
It's a tragedy of monumental proportions. Anyone who mentions travel to someplace interesting to me causes these deep pangs of untold regret in me. I hate them. I hate Alistair. I hate. I hate. I hate.
1261. PelleNilsson - 4/30/2001 1:43:18 PM
Judith
D'Annunzio was a super-fascist in an oddly individualistic way. An ugly, bald little man who attracted women like a lump of sugar attracts flies. His house may well be interesting.
1262. JudithAtHome - 4/30/2001 1:45:52 PM
It was. Very.
1263. Jenerator - 5/1/2001 9:22:36 AM
My honey and I are having date night tonight. I'm hoping to have some excellent Italian food at one of my favorite Dallas restaurants Mi Piaci.
1264. Webfeet - 5/2/2001 10:46:35 PM
Marj, that is too, too cruel.
I'm sure you've already thought of it, but why not do something fabulous for Memorial Day if you can't take off more time?
You really have to find a way to use those tickets.
ANd,I now feel really guilty about posting this--does anyone know of any hotels they could recommend in, er, St. Jean de Luce? Not that we're thinking of going there, marj, not at all.
1265. Webfeet - 5/2/2001 11:07:58 PM
Congratulations, Jenerator, the Happy Bride--I hear you've been hitched.
No more rides through the alps with jetsetting playboys in private helicopters, cherie.
Every night is date night now. (evil laughter)
1266. Jenerator - 5/3/2001 9:56:46 AM
Webfeet,
Thank you my dear. Yes, I'm a married woman now. As much as I love it -- marriage (and him) it IS weird having to schedule time together. Before, we were virtually inseperable. Now we make time to spend together.
1267. thoughtful - 5/7/2001 4:40:46 PM
If anyone is looking for a place to vacation, let me recommend coming to new england now...it's so much more spectacular in my book than the fall. There is color aplenty in the tulips, fruit trees, flowering bushes, and even the trees are colorful in their various stages of leafing. The sky has been bluer than blue with comfortable temps and no humidity. The fragrances of the lily of the valley and the lilacs and crab apples are enough to knock ones socks off. This is the one time of year I never want to leave home.
1268. sakonige - 5/7/2001 11:02:17 PM
I would love to visit New England. I want to see Washington DC in the summer of 2002 when the American Indian museum opens on the Capitol Mall. I hope I will get a chance to visit New England then, or at least sometime soon.
1269. HollyW - 5/7/2001 11:10:56 PM
Yes, get to New England this week if you can, people, the weather is perfect. Just make sure to pack your script for Allegra.
1270. sakonige - 5/7/2001 11:36:03 PM
I have to put my plans to teach math on hold and go back to work in the software industry for a couple more years. But before I put my poor, out-of-joint nose back to the grindstone, I'm going to make a pilgrimage to the Cherokee homeland in Oklahoma. It's an opportunity to meet some of the family I've made contact with there, and a chance to immerse myself in the extremely rich native history of the place. I've been studying that emotionally wrenching history in depth in preparation for my journey, uncovering so much I never could look at directly before. It hurt my husband's feelings when I told him I was glad to be travelling alone, but I am glad he won't be there to see me cry. I will cry, there is no question about that.
I can't wait to see my tribe's homeland, to finally see a city full of Indians who look like me, and hear them speaking our ancient language. This will be a life-changing journey.
By accident, the natives were herded into a region which had been developed more than a thousand years earlier as an important ceremonial site, called the Spiro Mound. The site has been severely desecrated, even blasted with dynamite by grave robbers, but it is still an incredibly powerful link to our native American heritage and a very significant archaeological site.
People usually think of rednecks when they think of Oklahoma, but it is redskins that are the most significant feature of the place. There is a tremendous amount of native American history and culture in Oklahoma.
1271. thoughtful - 5/8/2001 8:10:52 AM
Sakonige, don't forget the Cherokee reservation in NC and if you want to hit new england, there's the Institute for American Indian Study in Washington, CT.
1272. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 2:02:07 PM
Boeing has announced their new corporate headquarters will be in Chicago rather than Dallas or Denver.
Of course.
1273. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 2:09:40 PM
Yes, this area (D/FW) has been is swivet for weeks with local news breaking in every other minute to whisper "Boeing!"...then, this morning when the announcement came, they ran a crawl across the screen...no big breathless 30 minute press conference NOW.
1274. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 3:33:45 PM
I repeat, Dallas is next to follow Detroit as an imploded city to be abandoned.
1275. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 3:37:08 PM
I wouldn't be surprised...the city council there is more interested in making a losing basketball team feel welcome than in taking care of the infrastucture of the city. They cannot agree on anything except the most frivilous of items..like going for the Olympics bid...what a crock!
1276. janjon - 5/10/2001 3:40:24 PM
I've certainly never had much a feel for there being any there there in Dallas. Even less so than, say, Atlanta. Or Houston. Neither of which rank very high on my list of viable URBAN places.
1277. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 3:42:19 PM
You should've come a little further west, janjon...about 30 miles, to be exact.
1278. janjon - 5/10/2001 3:44:25 PM
Never been to Ft. Worth. It is on my list, however. The Kimball alone would make the trek worthwhile.
1279. CalGal - 5/10/2001 3:48:55 PM
Thoughtful, Sakonige:
The Cherokee reservation in North Carolina is an abomination and a tourist trap--except the museum, which is worth a visit. But close your eyes to everything around it.
1280. Jenerator - 5/10/2001 3:54:45 PM
I repeat, Dallas is next to follow Detroit as an imploded city to be abandoned.
What?? Scott, guess where the new Disneyland is being built. Yep, you guessed it, in a suburb of Dallas, that "soon to be aboandoned city" with one of the best economies and lowest gas prices in the nation.
I wouldn't be surprised...the city council there is more interested in making a losing basketball team feel welcome than in taking care of the infrastucture of the city. They cannot agree on anything except the most frivilous of items..like going for the Olympics bid...what a crock!
You mean that losing team the Mavericks which made it to the NBA playoffs? Oh, and as for the Olympics, any idea how much revenue the Olympics would generate for Dallas and the surrounding cities??
The infrastructure is no worse than most cities, either.
I've certainly never had much a feel for there being any there there in Dallas. Even less so than, say, Atlanta. Or Houston. Neither of which rank very high on my list of viable URBAN places.
Opinions vary.
1281. Erin R. - 5/10/2001 3:58:33 PM
Dallas is not so bad, but I actually prefer Houston. Dallas feels like an enormous shopping mall; Houston feels like a town.
1282. Jenerator - 5/10/2001 4:01:46 PM
The architecture in downtown Dallas is quite something. Although I miss the hills, valleys and beaches of S. California, I wouldn't live there if you paid me. I love Dallas. The people are extremely friendly, the economy is strong, the cost of living is low, there is world class eating and shopping, the sports are awesome, and theres is something for everyone.
It *is* flat, but it's a great place to live.
1283. Jenerator - 5/10/2001 4:02:10 PM
Houston has great Mexican food.
1284. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 4:03:31 PM
Jen:
The Olympics in Dallas in August? Are you dreaming? Plus it is too much investment for too little payoff....couldn't that money be better used elsewhere?
And you aren't going to tell me the city council works together as team? They are their own worst enemy...
At the time they decided to build that jazzy new arena for the Mavs, they looked like losers and you know it.
1285. CalGal - 5/10/2001 4:06:20 PM
I can't believe Dallas would waste their time trying to host the Olympics. Are they seriously considering a bid?
1286. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 4:07:16 PM
Well, I'll say this much for Dallas...after dark, downtown is as quiet as a mouse.
1287. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 4:09:15 PM
Yes, Cal...they are seriously considering it. With no clue how to transport thousands of tourists and atheletes from venue to venue, which will all be spread out over the D/FW area.
1288. janjon - 5/10/2001 4:17:44 PM
well, the chances of another American city getting the summer (or winter) Olympics for the next 16 or so years are slim. But, $$$$$ does tend to count. (Even though, of course, everything else about the bidding process is strictly on the up and up.)
The thought of an opening ceremony being done Dallas style is both mind-boggling and revolting.
How many spangles, tassels, bottles of peroxide, teeth whiteners, body enhancers can there be?
1289. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 4:28:47 PM
Should they win the bid, you will undoubtedly see how many...
1290. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:31:45 PM
The architecture in downtown Dallas is quite something. Yes, that's what led to my comment about Dallas the city about to implode. Horrible, disjointed, high-rise architecture, each building surrounded by parking lots and empty sidewalks limning the dumps and dives.
1291. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:32:32 PM
Dallas rises and falls on oil. A one-company town.
1292. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:34:21 PM
Dallas at night is dead, unrelieved save for a few busy, trendy restaurants catering to the crowd from the burbs come into "the city" for an Friday or Saturday's night meal.
1293. janjon - 5/10/2001 4:35:21 PM
um, the large number of open parking lots scattered lots of heres and theres in downtown Chicago is about the only thing I don't like about downtown Chicago.
1294. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:37:41 PM
Janjon, tell me where the open parking lots are in Chicago downtown from 400 South Michigan to 1000 North Michigan. Tell me. Stupid me! I spend US$12.00 an evening after 6:00 for parking. I'll just follow Janjon's advice!
1295. janjon - 5/10/2001 4:38:45 PM
Alas, few American cities have thriving downtowns at night. So many of them made the horrible mistake of relocating their museums, music halls, etc. away from the core.
I don't profess to know them all, but New York (above all), Chicago, San Francisco, Boston (somewhat), Philadelphia (somewhat) do thrive at night. Any others? (leaving aside specialized pockets, like the harbor area of Baltimore.)
1296. janjon - 5/10/2001 4:42:38 PM
scott - I didn't mean open to mean free. Just not built on. I also wasn't thinking of the miracle mile area and that indeed means I was thinking more of what I guess would now be called the older business district. I also didn't mean my comment to be insulting to Chicago. I like Chicago.
You can actually park in the theater district of NYC for about $12 as well (if you don't mind walking, say, from 6th Ave. over.) Go to one of the hotels and you're talkinging $28 up.
One of the many benefits of living in the city these days. I wouldn't drive to midtown to park. Period.
1297. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:44:29 PM
Most American cities are dying because of white flight to the suburbs and the amenities that follow: concentrated dining and shopping within easy driving distance, better public schools, more responsive local government, houses and people just like yours and mine.
Again, Americans are not sociable people, and their living and concerns reflect so.
1298. Erin R. - 5/10/2001 4:44:34 PM
It's your kind of time, Chicago is?
1299. Erin R. - 5/10/2001 4:45:13 PM
time=town
1300. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:45:35 PM
Janjon, I am not a civic booster but I've travelled enough to know Chicago works.
1301. ScottLoar - 5/10/2001 4:48:18 PM
Erin R. read Message # 1297.
1302. janjon - 5/10/2001 4:54:30 PM
Yes, Chicago works. Including the fact that you can take the El from O'Hare into the Loop. Unlike here in NYC where getting to/from any of the three airports (esp. Kennedy and LaGuardia) by public transit is a joke. There is a new monorail being built from JFK. But not to anyplace thoroughly logical, like a subway. Nope - to the Long Island Railroad Station in Jamaica. Where you can then go to downtown Brooklyn or Penn Station, but nowhere else.
Idiotic.
1303. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 4:57:09 PM
janjon:
Fort Worth has the new Performance Hall smack in the middle of the city...downtown is vital and many of the older buildings have been turned into condos and apartment rentals. The place is alive and thriving every night, with the Hall booked 365 nights a year and upscale restaurants and laid-back chain ones, too, plus coffee shops, outdoor cafes and retail businesses which stay open late 7 nights a week and impromptu street dances popping up every weekend. They have bike cops patrolling the area and just about enough parking, free after 5pm. There are 6 major hotels and a sprinkling of smaller ones downtown. There are also 2 major theatre companys downtown in addition to the runs of roadshows which show up at the Hall.
As they say, this joint is jumpin'...
1304. janjon - 5/10/2001 4:58:56 PM
Judith - that sounds very inticing.
I've always heard that Ft. Worth was the better half (well, third, I guess) of DFW.
1305. JudithAtHome - 5/10/2001 5:00:16 PM
I think so...on museums alone, we kill!
1306. janjon - 5/10/2001 5:00:49 PM
Meanwhile, I was really taken aback to have read that the entire city of Detroit (still about 1 million people in the city itself) didn't have a single MOVIE theater left until very recently when one opened.
That is sad.
1307. Jenerator - 5/11/2001 4:25:54 PM
I don't know why I take it as personal attack when you comment negatively on Dallas. Let me just say that it is obvious from the few of you in here that you have never lived in Dallas. If you have, it certainly wasn't recently.
Scott,
The Dallas skyline is the toast of many in architectural circles. We have a wide range in home styles, too. It's hard to open an issue of Architectural Digest and *not* see a Dallas home.
Janjon,
There is plenty of fake in Dallas, but even God knows that fake resides in Southern California. Texas has some real beauties. Look at Sandra Day O'Connor for example (That was a joke.) Renee Zellweger and Angie Harmon are just two, there are *tons* more.
Judith,
"With no clue how to transport thousands of tourists and atheletes from venue to venue, which will all be spread out over the D/FW area."
No clue??? Did you attend the 2012 Gala? Did you attend the 2012 planning sessions? Did you attend the 2012 steering committee meetings?
If your answer is no, which I know it is, you don't know what you're talking about.
I'm *not* trying to trash Ft. Worth, but the fact of the matter is, is that Ft. Worth is extremely boring. Its' idea of "night life" is walking through the one-block downtown and having dinner at Mi Cocina and then a beer at the Flying Saucer. For a tourist attraction, you have the Kimbell (excellent, excellent museum) and the stockyards. What else? You can try and drive through Ft. Worth, but because half the roads are under construction, you might not get anywhere.
Ft. Worth is smaller, less populated, and terribly boring. No one goes to Ft. Worth for its night life except for the people who are stuck there.
1308. ScottLoar - 5/11/2001 4:32:01 PM
I like Architectural Digest but note its province is most always presentations of contemporary residences, mostly interiors and mostly monied, and I do not think it a proper measure for the critique of architecture, particularly not of urban architecture.
1309. janjon - 5/11/2001 4:33:41 PM
"It's hard to open an issue of Architectural Digest and *not* see a Dallas home."
Even more reason to think that Dallas is a very schlocky place.
AD, in my humble opinion, is mostly just about architectural treatments that are mostly derivative and stale and interior decoration that is about expensive crap. At least that is the stuff that is the feature of most of their ponderous articles.
urp.
1310. ScottLoar - 5/11/2001 4:33:53 PM
Outside Dallas is contemporary and is monied so it would find featured reference in Architectural Digest but, no, Dallas is not known as a city of architectural wealth nor can it feign so.
1311. ScottLoar - 5/11/2001 4:34:25 PM
So, Janjon and I agree.
1312. janjon - 5/11/2001 4:37:44 PM
on more things than you might imagine, loar. Especially when it comes to aesthetics.
1313. Frankster - 5/11/2001 4:38:29 PM
Post 1282 - Although I miss the hills, valleys and beaches of S. California, I wouldn't live there if you paid me.
Juxtaposed with:
I don't know why I take it as personal attack when you comment negatively on Dallas....
You take it personally because it is your home, just like southern California is mine, and why I might take it personally when someone takes a backhand swipe at it.
1314. JudithAtHome - 5/11/2001 5:30:04 PM
Jen:
All the hurt feelings in the world about the Olympic bid are wasted effort because regardless of what they have told you at the "Gala" and the planning sessions, I seriously doubt they will 1.) win the bid or 2.) be able to get it together enough to provide public transportation for the myriad crowds expected at such an event. But hey, knock yourself out...and if y'all DO win the bid, congrats!
I'm happy for you that you love Dallas; I've had many enjoyable times there and no, I've never lived there but I think one can experience a place and decide if it holds their interest without actually living there. Evidently you agree else how would you have decided on Fort Worth being such a bore?
If Fort Worth is such a crashing bore, how come the Dallas Morning News awarded "Best Live Theatre" to Fort Worth? Why is our Bass Performance Hall listed in the top 10 Opera Houses in the world? Why is the Kimbell Museum routinely cited as one of the top world class museums? Sure, you can have a boring time going to a mexican restaurant and to a trendy pub for a beer but trust me, you can do that in Dalals, too....if you want to enjoy something a little more cultural, though, try going where I do and you might not be so bored.
1315. JudithAtHome - 5/11/2001 5:58:35 PM
Oh, and by the way...we are not stuck in Fort Worth. Almost everyone living here knows the way to Dallas.
1316. Jenerator - 5/14/2001 1:18:24 PM
Frank,
I think that San Diego is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. If it weren't for the immense traffic, pollution, skyrocketing cost of living and earthquakes, I'd move back there in a heartbeat.
Judith,
The Olympics bid is one of the most competitive bids in the world. I do think that Dallas could "handle" the Olympics, but I do not think that the city will get the Olympics for quite a while. The new Dallas Stars/Mavericks arena is definitely a positive factor working in our favor. Supposedly, it is the archetype for all new advanced arenas.
Secondly, the Bass Performance Hall is highly ranked because of its rich roots (Bass family) and capacity to house high dollar performers. The Kimbell Museum is highly ranked because of its history of skilled curators. Not to mention, expensive collections. The reason I find Ft. Worth boring, is because it's a town that goes to bed relatively early, and outside of the pub, mexican restaurant and Bass Opera house, there's not much to do. Plus, it's hard to rationalize driving 80-100 miles roundtrip for that. Ft. Worth is great for a Saturday afternoon, or if you have a visitor wanting to see the Stockyards. I too am glad that you like where you live, but if you try to give a false impression that Dallas has nothing to offer, especially compared to Ft. Worth, you're perpetuating a false image of a great place.
1317. JudithAtHome - 5/14/2001 2:18:38 PM
I haven't tried to give a "false" image that Dallas has nothing to offer. Jen...you take constructive criticism too much to heart.
I'm happy for you that you enjoy your city. Mine has more to offer than you seem to realize but that is fine with me...I think we might be looking for much different things in a city. I will grant you we don't have as many bars and clubs and gentlemans clubs going all night long like Dallas but somehow we manage to survive that fate.
And by the way, Ball Performance Hall is more than a family with money...have you ever set foot inside? I've been to the Meyerson, after all, and can make a comaparison based on realistic facts.
1318. janjon - 5/14/2001 2:22:40 PM
comaparison.
I like that.
Some clever reviewer (of almost anything) could use that, for sure.
1319. janjon - 5/14/2001 2:24:05 PM
By the way - its all over for Dallas (and for the scads of other American cities also considering bids) for the 2012 Olympics. New York City is going to make a bid.
1320. JudithAtHome - 5/14/2001 2:40:28 PM
Well, I guess the first signs of aging are when your spelling skills hit the skids...have a birthday and go straight to hell.
1321. janjon - 5/14/2001 2:44:53 PM
The New York City bid probably does mean that Giuliani intends to run again for Mayor in four years. (We have a two CONSECUTIVE term limit, unlike the two term limit period for U.S. presidents).
And, considering all of the problems his successor is likely to inherit/face (not least of which will be the likelihood that the city will not be as prosperous over the next few years because of the decline which is apparent in the financial services industry, which is our biggest employer), I wouldn't bet against that egomaniac.
1322. JudithAtHome - 5/14/2001 2:48:08 PM
I think one of the things Jen and I differ on the most is the Olympics bid; she sees it as a good thing for Dallas and I see it as the worst waste of money imaginable.
I wonder if they ever talked to the people of Atlanta...
1323. janjon - 5/14/2001 2:54:03 PM
Well, the pitch being made here is that this will enervate the City to do sooooo many things that people have been "craving" to get - like a new major stadium, like a hippodrome, like some new housing in an underutilized place, etc.
The problem is that a lot of these projects are controversial. Giuliani is ITCHING to get a new baseball stadium approved before he leaves office and has been pushing for one near the Javits Center for years. The construction industry is ga ga over this, of course.
I suspect that if we do proceed with a serious bid, we will get it rather easily. World Capital and all that. On the other hand, this is one of very few places where the Olympics, while a big deal, would sort of just go on without a lot of special notice around here. The Olympics Committee might not like that aspect. But, on the other other hand, having them in NYC is bound to increase media attention/coverage.
1324. janjon - 5/14/2001 2:55:58 PM
As for Dallas and Fort Worth, I, um, don't think that either is on most people's top (you fill in the blank) as a destination city.
As I think I mentioned some days ago, for what it is worth I certainly have had a number of friends/acquaintances who have said that if you have to go to that area, you can skip Dallas but Ft. Worth is worth a visit.
I've been to Dallas and concur with that sentiment, but can't say about Ft. Worth.
1325. PelleNilsson - 5/14/2001 4:27:12 PM
Dave Barry's
Summer travel advice
1326. thoughtful - 5/14/2001 5:02:10 PM
Pelle, Hubby pointed that article out to me this weekend and I was ROFLMAO.
1327. grannypatsy - 5/15/2001 9:50:26 PM
Gee Pelle, thanks a lot; I am flying to Chicago thurday, I hope. I am not too reassured that every news channel has a horror story about the dangers, delays, and cancellations. Whimper.
1328. Dusty - 5/16/2001 10:49:45 AM
Thnaks Pelle, funny stuff
1329. thoughtful - 5/16/2001 12:17:40 PM
janjon,
"the pitch being made here is that this will enervate* the City"
*enervate: To weaken or destroy the strength or vitality of: “the luxury which enervates and destroys nations” (Henry David Thoreau). See synonyms at deplete.
1330. janjon - 5/16/2001 5:50:19 PM
oops. Thanks, thoughtful.
try "energize"
1331. Fielding - 5/17/2001 9:57:06 AM
janjon:
I agree with your post 1323. If New York wants the games, she will get them. The question is whether New York can develop a consensus.
Personally, I think the games would be great for New York. I say this not only as a sports fan, but as a fan of capital improvement and public works.
1332. thoughtful - 5/17/2001 11:56:39 AM
actually janjon,I agree with enervate....the resulting grid lock of adding a whole lot more people to a city that's already overcrowded and plagued with traffic jams....yikes!
1333. janjon - 5/17/2001 12:34:03 PM
thoughtful. Even the Olympics wouldn't do much harm to this city, in terms of traffic, etc. (We actually are not nearly as bad in terms of traffic jams as are places like LA, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago.)
Actually, that is a bit parochial. I am thinking only of Manhattan. If the Olympics come here, many of the events will end up being in Queens. That will have impact.
As for Manhattan, leaving aside the occasional hiccups caused by things like really heavy rain or snow, the major traffic problems here are created whenever the President is in town (a frequent occurance with Big Bill. Not much of a threat with W.) Or whenever the U.N. has some sort of special convocation/conference. The restaurants love it, the rest of us just grin and bear it. All those self-important so-called diplomats being swished here and there by black limos.
1334. thoughtful - 5/17/2001 1:11:16 PM
janjon, yes, Queens will get socked big time. I don't care what time of day or night or day of week... the LIE is always a parking lot.
Also, I have been in some incredible jams in Manhattan....standard procedure for the family in crossing the willis ave bridge was to peak over at the FDR to see if it was even moving before we decided to take it or 2nd ave. to midtown...and that was years and years ago.
1335. Jenerator - 5/18/2001 1:53:26 PM
Downtown Dallas at night: 
A typical scene in springtime: 
Remember this? 
1336. CalGal - 5/18/2001 6:04:38 PM
Business' loss is our gain
Major U.S. airlines are introducing cheaper first-class fares—but with restrictions -- in an effort to combat cutbacks in business travel.
Northwest Airlines Corp., the No. 4 U.S. carrier, started the discounts rolling on Wednesday by cutting 50 to 60 percent off its regular first-class ticket prices.
AMR Corp.'s American Airlines, the biggest U.S. airline, followed suit by matching the fares on some non-stop routes. Delta Air Lines Inc. lines is also cutting first class fares 50 to 60 percent, with some restrictions.
1337. msgreer - 5/18/2001 7:14:16 PM
janjon
You can add Boston to your list of cities no one wants to drive in. I lived in NYC and although I didn't like to experience when I drove to LI, it paled in comparison to driving from Cape Cod to Logan or Boston proper.
1338. msgreer - 5/18/2001 7:16:48 PM
correction..the experience not to experience.
1339. alistairconnor - 5/18/2001 8:12:27 PM
Travel notes :
1) Resurrected Sto of the reconstructed kneecap, are you still trundling your family through France this summer? Dates please.
2) Charlotte, NC, in summer. Any recommendations of things to be seen and done? We'll avoid the cherokee reservation.
3) Counting down to Italy : a week to go. Odd how my visits there seem to involve changes of government. Last time was when the left got elected, for the first time since... well, were there any left wing Roman emperors?
1340. stostosto - 5/19/2001 2:27:54 PM
alistair!
I've been thinking of you.
First three weeks of July, but we haven't decided on the itinerary. Advice will be appreciated!
Probably we'll go down the Rhône valley. My parents are going to be around Lyon, and we plan on visiting them.
1342. alistairconnor - 5/19/2001 3:48:45 PM
First three weeks of July...
I'll have a think about camping grounds to recommend (you will be in some sort of camper van?) - the best ones need reserving as soon as possible.
First week, my wife kids and are still at school. (the legendary long summer holidays are getting eaten away at both ends).
In the second week, I'll be doing my annual mountain biking. This year it's in the Drôme (over the river from the Ardèche). Possibly we could arrange to cross paths there.
Third week would be suitable to visit us. We even have a big enough flat space to park a van on (though no hook-ups I'm afraid). Ponies, stream, lots of barbed wire and blackberries to get snared in; cow and horseshit everywhere. A child's paradise.
Reasonable wine cellar too.
1343. stostosto - 5/19/2001 6:00:55 PM
Hey, alistair, your place sounds formidable! (I meant that in French). I'd love to come and visit.
We will not be in a van but rather in a much too small car - Skoda Fabia (unless I can manage to borrow a bigger car, I just might).
It's actually a rather large concern of mine, since travelling five people for that long in such a small car is bound to cause trouble.
We will be camping, alright, but by way of a tent.
The time-honoured Norse way, you know. (Ever since, well, the sixties, I suppose).
1344. stostosto - 5/19/2001 6:02:51 PM
Counting down to Italy : a week to go. Odd how my visits there seem to involve changes of government.
Well, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a time to go to Italy when they are not about to change the government.
1345. JJBiener - 5/19/2001 6:03:11 PM
Alistair - Reasonable wine cellar too.
Not to be confused with our unreasonable Cellar who whines.
(G)
1346. stostosto - 5/19/2001 6:07:13 PM
JJ, I -- I -- I --
I guess I don't know what to say.
1347. JJBiener - 5/19/2001 6:16:57 PM
Sto - That is probably best.
1348. alistairconnor - 5/21/2001 4:23:29 PM
In general, when looking for camping grounds in France : if you like noise and crowds, follow the Germans. If you like space, nature and quiet, follow the Dutch.
First recommendation : Camping Le Folastère, at St Julien du Gua Map This one has lots of Belgians. Very small, camping à la ferme in the hills of Ardèche. The owner, a former peasant farmer, is a very cool character. In July, and for a tent site, you shouldn't need to reserve. But if you're feeling rich and want to rent a studio, you'll need to.
I had another recommendation, but I've mislaid the address.
Here at the Moulin Chorel, there is indoor accomodation.
1349. Indiana Jones - 5/21/2001 4:32:09 PM
Alistair: You might consider a day trip to Biltmore House. It's in Asheville, about 140 miles.
1350. marjoribanks - 5/21/2001 4:45:33 PM
You know, my first thought was "why would anyone want to live in tents in France?"
Then I mentally reviewed the quality of the small hotels I've stayed in throughout the French countryside, at least a dozen.
Tent stay makes a great deal of sense. Hell, the ground will probably be cleaner than the floor of your hotel room. And judging from most of the bathrooms, it'll make no difference and perhaps actually be more comfortable to simply go in a bush.
1351. alistairconnor - 5/21/2001 4:52:05 PM
Yeah, the trick is to avoid the hotels and stay in "gîtes ruraux" and "chambres d'hôtes", which generally have a lot more character, and less dirt, for the same price.
1352. alistairconnor - 5/21/2001 5:02:39 PM
Thank you Mr Jones, that looks very cool. We are thinking of heading up to the Blue Ridge mountains in any case, in search of greenness and air. If you have any cabin-in-the-woods style accomodation addresses, I'm a taker.
1353. stostosto - 5/21/2001 5:16:55 PM
Thanks for the recommendations, alistair! But the map link doesn't work, it claims the 'session is expired'.
Re French hotels, I haven't really much experience; I may have stayed at around five.
One cheap Parisian one gave me scabies. Most unpleasant.
Another was more of a strange experience, almost otherworldly. That was in Verdun where the hotel was seemingly intent on functioning as a museum for WWI. Even the hostess there must have been young around that time. And it turned out she had good help from - her mother!
The beds were the most wobbly pieces of furniture I have ever encountered. And the breakfast? Why, croissants so dry your mouth went all dusty. It was so grotesque you couldn't help but feel taken in by it.
Those old, old slippers wearing women and their utterly worn-out, run-down, ghost-like hotel.
---
alistair, I wasn't aware French camping sites were that easy to peg by the nationalities of the clientel..? That never occurred to me.
What you say about the gîtes is true. They are my parents' favoured way of accomodation in France.
I don't think I know about the chambres d'hôtes. Is that like Zimmer frei/bed and breakfast?
1354. thoughtful - 5/21/2001 5:24:26 PM
Alistair, not sure what this means, but the last time I was in Charlotte, we vacationed in Charleston...
1355. marjoribanks - 5/21/2001 5:24:27 PM
Sto,
AC's pegging of places by the nation of the clientele is by far the most useful advice you're likely to recieve. I'd follow his recommendations to the letter, nothing worse than being surrounded by Germans en vacance.
In the Maldives, things are even more drastic. Entire islands are peopled entirely by Germans, of Italians, or (in the case of a couple) Indians. Imagine being moored on a deserted island with only Dusseldorfers! It happened to me.
1356. stostosto - 5/21/2001 5:32:28 PM
Ack, German camping tourists! Only one thing is worse: German camping site officials.
1357. janjon - 5/21/2001 5:33:46 PM
Yes. There isn't much there there in Charlotte.
1358. marjoribanks - 5/21/2001 5:38:27 PM
Germans on vaction in general are the worst.
They're hogs, they complain endlessly, they're bullies, they are frigging LOUD. In other words, they're worse than Americans abroad. And I do not exclude the super-knowledgeable "hippies" who are unctuous instead of loud.
1359. Webfeet - 5/21/2001 5:48:19 PM
I was surprised at how civilized camping is in France. Near my in-laws place in the Hautes Alpes is the Parc National Des Ecrins which extends from Bourg d'Oisans, to Briançon and Gap.
The one within walking distance of their home in Argentière-la-Bessèe near Vigneaux has a pool, restaurant/bar and organized activities like kayaking, parachuting and others.
I used to walk through the campgrounds in the early evening and, not surprisingly, beteen 7-8 pm, each family I passed was sitting à table with a bottle of wine in front of them, enjoying their dinners. It was like they were home, in their dining rooms. No franks and baked beans out of cans for them.
This area may be touristy, but it is so vast and so beautiful, that you don't notice the hordes because they are scattered all around.
The campsite near my in-laws was really peaceful, situated near a pasture of a berger who is a family friend. It's like having a little fromagerie around the corner from you.
The information number for Parc National Des Ecrins is 04-92-40-20-10. If you want more information on accommodations, stostosto, just ask.
1360. sakonige - 5/21/2001 8:44:44 PM
Muskogee, Oklahoma is nothing like its reputation. Tahlequah is not like I expected it would be, either. This isn't an impoverished Indian reservation in a parched wasteland. It's a small agricultural town situated amid lakes, rivers and thickly wooded rolling hills. Cherokees live in tidy little brick houses and drive new cars. The tribal highschool looks like a small, better-than-average suburban highschool, and many of the graduates attend college.
1361. sakonige - 5/21/2001 8:59:52 PM
The weather here is something from another planet. Yesterday afternoon, thunderstorms started forming out of a nearly clear sky, followed by 2 inch diameter hailstones, 70 mph winds, then dozens of little tornados.
1362. Jenerator - 5/22/2001 11:11:25 AM
Sakonige,
Are you now an Okie from Muskogee?
Welcome neighbor, the weather is something you'll never get used to.
Yesterday morning when I left for work at 6:30 am it was a humid 85. When I left at 2:30 pm, it was cloudy and a dry 68.
P.s. my grandfather on my dad's side was born on a reservation in Oklahaoma.
1363. JudithAtHome - 5/22/2001 11:34:23 AM
Blue:
I thought I told you Tahlequah was located near lakes and hills? It's stunning in the fall...
1364. janjon - 5/22/2001 11:59:00 AM
We spent a terrific relatively long weekend in and around Mexico City last weekend. It had been a while since there and I had somewhat forgotten how intriguing that city can be. Especially at this time of year (or a bit earlier), when the really unfortunate air conditions aren't as bad, due to the effects of the springtime rains.
At any rate, I highly recommend it.
1365. sakonige - 5/22/2001 2:33:05 PM
Jenerator,
actually, I'm now a Cherokee from Tahlequah. I've been given the official stomp of approval. I've even scored three points in a stickball game.
1366. sakonige - 5/22/2001 2:36:53 PM
I still don't know for sure which of the seven clans I belong to. I'm going to spend this afternoon looking up old records in the national geneology center to see if I can confirm which arbor I'm supposed to sit under at the stomp dance.
1367. sakonige - 5/22/2001 2:39:26 PM
Jenerator, I was surprised how many Cherokees do look like you. We're a fairly pale bunch. I saw a georgeous kid today with blond hair, blue eyes and perfectly Iroquoian features.
1368. Jenerator - 5/22/2001 4:53:02 PM
Sakonige,
I had always thought that the darker pigments on my dad's side would have been dominant. My father had dark bown hair, skin and eyes. He was slender, broad shouldered and narrow hipped. I have my mom's coloring and his build. The other day, I was sitting in the sun and I noticed a coarse black hair mixed in with the blonde on my head, but I plucked it.
My sister looks more Indian than I do.
1369. thoughtful - 5/22/2001 5:19:03 PM
Anyone know anything about Cape May NJ? I'm looking for a quick place to go for a few days with some shore, maybe some sun and a few interesting places to visit, like the nature walks in the state park or some old homes. How 'bout it?
1370. janjon - 5/22/2001 5:22:09 PM
It has all of that (well, one cannot guarantee the sun). A fair number of Victorian houses. Mostly all now spruced up.
It is known as being a prime spot for migrating birds.
That of course depends on your timing.
A pleasant enough town that verges on being too cutsy and touristy.
(All of this is impressions from what is now a visit of at least 10 years ago, incidentally.)
1371. janjon - 5/22/2001 5:24:11 PM
For a contrast, you could also visit Wildwood, New Jersey. Not too far away up the shore. Definitely not a fancy resort, but it has its charms. Mostly in the number of '50s motels and restaurants that were never "remodeled" because no one had the money.
I'm not suggesting that this is paradise, incidentally, but it might be worth an overnight.
1372. thoughtful - 5/22/2001 5:26:52 PM
Thanks janjon, will consider it. Hubby is still a problem though. Retirement has changed his attitude much about vacations unfortunately.
How 'bout Lake George as an alternative...anyone know if it's too whatever? rundown? overcrowded? cheesy?
1373. Webfeet - 5/22/2001 5:50:02 PM
Thoughtful,
I have a sweet spot for Lake George and the Adirondacks in general because we spent a few summers there when I was growing up. It's just as lovely and secluded as Vermont or anywhere else. yes, there are some depressed areas, but it doesn't get in your way.
You might want to avoid Lake George village, though, and try for a hotel or resort outside of that area. It is definetely touristy, but you can keep your distance.
I stayed at the Sagamore once on a ski trip a few years ago. It's kind of like The Great Gatsby estate meets the Shining but it may not be what you're looking for.
You might want to think about Woodstock, too. It has more sophisticated entertainment in the way of restaurants and lots of nice b&b's.
1374. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 10:23:55 AM
Thanks webfeet. I looked at Sagamore on line and it looks like a grand old hotel, but I'm not sure I want to spend the $$$ at this point.
But then again, I'm also not sure that I want to drive through NJ to get to Cape May....the traffic is SOOOO horrendous.
I dunno. The backyard is starting to look more attractive all the time!
1375. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 10:25:42 AM
Yeah...the bed and pillow are just like I like it, quick and easy access, no traffic. The only problem is room service and maid service sucks.
1376. Fielding - 5/23/2001 10:26:06 AM
Woodstock has become an ugly tourist trap.
1377. Webfeet - 5/23/2001 10:40:53 AM
Thoughtful, I completely agree. And the restaurant scarily gave both my ex and I the shits.
It was very fancy shmancy in a cliched way
but I had the best apres ski massage of my life there. Some bohunk from Queens...
1378. janjon - 5/23/2001 10:44:29 AM
Thoughtful - less I be mistaken, I wouldn't REALLY recommend Cape May (or certainly Wildwood.)
There really isn't enough there there to make it worth while overlooking all of the New Jersey crap that goes with it. Unless you go during one of the bird migration seasons and if you are a real birder.
Vermont or upper state New York - that's the ticket.
1379. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 1:38:08 PM
janjon, hubby went to school in VT and he has a buddy and an ex boss who live there, so a trip to VT means going visiting, which is not what I really want to do.
We went to Lake Placid one year...very nice except we hit an entire week of rain which, er, dampened the experience quite a bit. Stayed at the Mirror Lake Inn. At least the room kept us busy with its covered balcony and whirlpool tub.
We were looking for someplace we haven't been yet without needing to drive too far. Some place attractive but not so out of the way that there's nothing to do (especially since the majority of my vacations are plagued with rain). Yet someplace that is a bit quieter than the typical family hot spots...we have no children and really don't wish to vacation with anyone else's.
1380. Dusty - 5/23/2001 2:45:41 PM
Thoughtful
Mohonk Mountain House is a place I've always wanted to stay. I've tried to make plans a couple of times, but they've fallen through. It is about 90 minutes out of NYC. 
1381. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 3:02:02 PM
Yes, my old boss used to go there regularly, but the last article I saw on it said it was gearing itself to be a "family" place which means lots of children. I try to avoid places that have "kids free" offers.
1382. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 3:05:59 PM
I was thinking also of Blantyre but again I'm not sure I want to spend the $$$. You're looking at over $1500 for 5 nights.
Sigh.
1383. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 3:08:35 PM
Maybe hubby is right...we should head to Canada...that way at least we'll get 1/3 off everything we spend thanks to the strong $. Relais & Chateaux has a couple of places there not far from the VT border.
1384. Dusty - 5/23/2001 3:10:35 PM
I wonder if that is a recent change? I don't recall seeing a child there when I visited, but that was some time ago. If anything, I thought the problem might be that it catered to the blue-hair crowd.
From the accommodations section:
Rates for tower rooms, suites, and for children are available upon request.
I may have misinterpreted it, but I interpreted this as suggesting that children weren't their main desire. They do allow children to stay free during two weeks in December, strongly suggesting that they are not free other times. I haven't stayed in a place in the US that separately charged for children.
Again, I haven't been there in years, and if you know someone who has stayed there, they should have better information than I do. But with room rates ranging from $310 to $550, I'll be surprised if it is teeming with kids.
1385. janjon - 5/23/2001 3:12:56 PM
The food at Mohonk is terrible.
The settting is unique and even quaint. Not only are there kids running around, but all sorts of mini-conventions (granted, sedate ones, but nevertheless.)
I repeat -the food is geared to appealing to those who like things very very traditional and bland.
1386. Dusty - 5/23/2001 3:14:50 PM
thoughtful
that way at least we'll get 1/3 off everything we spend
This is a joke, right? I've heard people say this seriously, so I'm asking.
I mean, the dollar is strong, but the PPP differential is more like 16%.
1387. janjon - 5/23/2001 3:18:21 PM
Thoughtful - YES. Canada is such a bargain these days that it is almost sad.
The Canadian dollar is worth about U.S.66 cents currently, I believe.
1388. PelleNilsson - 5/23/2001 3:47:33 PM
thoughtful
Blantyre? I know that Malawi is supposed to be nice at this time of the year, but still?
1389. ScottLoar - 5/23/2001 3:51:26 PM
re Message # 1388: Malawi. Very, very good.
1390. Dusty - 5/23/2001 3:57:09 PM
janjon
Lots of countries are relative bargains. Most, more so than Canada. Only the fact that Canada is local makes it a plausible destination if you wish to save money. Many countries, Russia, Malaysia, Hong Kong and others are much better bargains.
1391. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 4:12:53 PM
dusty, from mohonk's web site: "Mohonk is the perfect place for children to discover themselves this summer. Youngsters age 12 and under stay free midweek when sharing a room with two adults. (Some restrictions apply.) Our celebrated Children’s Program offers intriguing activities for the kids while talented performers provide workshops and performances for the entire family. Ask our Reservationists for details on this exciting program!"
That translates into family-friendly in my book.
1392. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 4:13:35 PM
Haha Pelle....a really cool drive from here, if you can breathe under water!
1393. janjon - 5/23/2001 4:14:33 PM
Well, of course. Take Italy for example. About one half as expensive as compared to only a couple of years ago.
I thought thoughtful was talking about a few days. I mean, long weekends in Europe are not unheard of, but even cheapie airfare can drive up the overall costs.
1394. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 4:31:18 PM
janjon, not just the cost, but also the limited time...spending a minimum of 18 hours travel (including getting to and from aiports etc.) is not my idea of how to spend a quick vacation.
For example, Blantyre is around $350 per night and up. Hotel L'Eau à la Bouche outside of Montreal, also a Relais & Chateaux property, maxes out at $315 Canadian which is a little over $200 US.
1395. thoughtful - 5/23/2001 4:32:03 PM
er..that last paragraph was for Dusty.
1396. ScottLoar - 5/24/2001 8:17:58 AM
Some two or three years ago I stayed with my family at the Intercontinental Hotel in Montreal. With the airlines 50% discount coupon it was most excellent, in the city center, a fine hotel.
1397. stostosto - 5/26/2001 4:39:54 AM
alistair:
OK. We are getting nearer. We will aim for paying a visit at your place in that third week of July.
And I'll check out that camping site you recommended, though perhaps we had something more Alpine in mind. My parents have often camped at Lac du Bourgés. How far is that from your whereabouts?
More later.
1398. grannypatsy - 5/30/2001 2:56:16 AM
Chicago report: Daughter and I liked Chicago ut it was nothing that I imagined it to be. I knew it weas flat but it's astonishing to see rise out of the prarie in a clump. The Architectural Foundations River trip was as neat as adverised' The skyscrapers seem more imposing than New Yorks's. I think it's because there is more space betwqeen them' I felt loke the little old lady who said she wanted to see the scyscrapers work. We stayed in Highland Park which was great. Driving into the city through lush green trees and lake views ws a delight.I had no idea the North Shore was pretty. Wrigley Field was another highlight. People really were hanging out the windows of nearby apaartments to watch the game. We hd box seats at Symphony Hall wjich were also a a surprise; the sight line was incredulous. I have no great urge to revisit the area but we had a good time and now I can say I've been to Chicago.
1399. Fielding - 5/30/2001 12:13:33 PM
I like to spend some time in Mozambique
The sunny sky is aqua blue
And all the couples dancing cheek to cheek.
It's very nice to stay a week or two.
There's lots of pretty girls in Mozambique
And plenty time for good romance
And everybody likes to stop and speak
To give the special one you seek a chance
Or maybe say hello with just a glance.
Lying next to her by the ocean
Reaching out and touching her hand,
Whispering your secret emotion
Magic in a magical land.
And when it's time for leaving Mozambique,
To say goodbye to sand and sea,
You turn around to take a final peek
And you see why it's so unique to be
Among the lovely people living free
Upon the beach of sunny Mozambique.
1400. JudithAtHome - 6/1/2001 9:27:38 AM
Remember when Jen and I were arguing about Dallas? It was announced yesterday that Boeing chose Chicago because it had a more vibrant downtown...
I feel vindicated.
1401. grannypatsy - 6/1/2001 6:14:56 PM
A Chicago resident claimed that the city had been chosen by Boeing becvause the CEO was a sailor.
1402. JudithAtHome - 6/1/2001 6:37:50 PM
Patsy:
The word they put out around here was that Dallas was dull.
1403. grannypatsy - 6/1/2001 10:28:37 PM
J@H Well, that too.
1404. Jenerator - 6/3/2001 10:24:07 PM
Judith,
You should. Just remember that important factors such as "cost of living" were not important for Boeing officials when thinking of Dallas versus Chicago.
At least Dallas made second choice, Denver didn't get a second glance. Oh well, Kirk has his work cut out for him, I hope he goes for it.
Now, onto my fantasy vacation...
If I had it my way, I would leave tonight with my husband and head to Tahiti. We would stay in a 5 star hotel and drink nothing but bottled water and their best wine. We would feast on lobster and steak and our days would be filled with swimming, sunbathing, and chauffered sight-seeing. We would have massages every three days and we would be staying for two weeks.
No cell phones, no contacts.
Just us.
1405. Uzmakk - 6/4/2001 8:15:22 AM
My Dear Banks:
Perhaps you could shed some light on the following occurence --
I believe it was June. I was on a camping trip with a bunch of folks from my wife's company when a horde of apparent Hindus from New Jersey descended upon the campground. Loud partying and Indian music blared, great activity around the campfire, perhaps some dancing. By any standards it was inconsiderate.
I considered concealing my camp ax, walking to the center of the gathering, and hacking my way out, but controlled myself. At 10:00PM-official quiet time- the celebration halted and quiet reigned. I imagine they had made arrangements with the park management: It is a county park and I expect that management has rather wide latitude, but I don't recall any notification of other patrons.
What was the hulabaloo?
1406. Jenerator - 6/4/2001 11:58:31 AM
So THAT'S where you've been??
1407. Uzmakk - 6/4/2001 12:08:12 PM
Hello, Jenerator. How is the household coming?
1408. Jenerator - 6/4/2001 12:09:44 PM
I'd rather talk about your late-night camping parties.
1409. Uzmakk - 6/4/2001 1:11:36 PM
Alas, Jenerator, I have so little time to chat these days.
1410. marjoribanks - 6/5/2001 11:34:51 AM
Ooze,
Just as one swallow does not a summer make, one unruly pack of dancing Indians does not mean that some portentous festival was underway. Baisakhi, the Punjabi New Year (mostly Sikh) is in June. But almost any gathering of (particularly expat) Indians will involve copious alcohol consumption, loud music, and much dancing. The event could have been as innocuous as the local accountants society annual meeting.
1411. ScottLoar - 6/5/2001 6:09:44 PM
Uzmakk, you think the horde of Indians came to commune with Nature? Did you think they would care about anyone else within shouting distance who was not part of their group? Do you realize this group was not unique nor their attitude peculiarly Indian?
1412. Uzmakk - 6/5/2001 6:39:25 PM
Yes, Mr. Loar, I realize it now that you mention it, since I, myself, have been on the other side of the campfire. Their attitude may not have been peculiarly Indian, but the bejeweled elephant that they brought with them certainly made it seem that way.
1413. Uzmakk - 6/6/2001 8:06:57 AM
Actually, I am rethinking this occurence. I think it was unique in my experience and I think it was uncivil. If these people wanted to have a loud party they should certainly have chosen another venue, perhaps a farm out in the country. One does not go into a campground and stage a wild party amidst people who are there to roast weinies with their children. No, this was an odd thing.
1414. Webfeet - 6/8/2001 10:47:05 AM
The worst thing about flying standby is that you never really know until the last minute if you are going to get on the plane. In my case, Im flying Sunday night now to Nice because Sat. nite is totally booked.
No big deal considering R/T tickets for Clement and I to France cost $165 !! (babies only pay airport tax!)
With that and the strength of the dollar in Europe, I can really justify the dirty mood I am in to go shopping. And it is dirty, dirty indeed.
1415. JudithAtHome - 6/8/2001 10:55:23 AM
If you want anything from England, the pound is at an all time low.
1416. Uzmakk - 6/8/2001 11:15:32 AM
Really, Judith? Cool, there is a bunch of stuff that has built into quite a list that I would not mind ordering from England. I shall have to put together and order.
1417. Uzmakk - 6/8/2001 11:16:14 AM
ie, put together an order.
1418. janjon - 6/8/2001 12:04:56 PM
not an all time low, even in modern times, Judith. The pound was almost at parity with the U.S. dollar about 15 years ago for a few months.
Talk about bargains. Even if it was mostly the typical shittily made English wares.
1419. JudithAtHome - 6/8/2001 12:36:24 PM
janjon:
I was just quoting NPR.
1420. janjon - 6/8/2001 12:56:03 PM
well, I'll have to look and see if the pound took a REALLY dramatic plunge in the last few days (it certainly is under pressure as the "pros" become more convinced that the U.K. will take the euro plunge). The last I looked it was still over $1.40.
1421. JudithAtHome - 6/8/2001 1:00:02 PM
The story I heard was that since Blair was elected so easily and the leader of the opposing party resigned, the euro plunge thing will be coming to the forefront more quickly and thus the drop....I was making breakfast at the time so don't rely on my details...
1422. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 1:25:17 PM
To confirm Janjon's statement, I remember when the dollar was 1.05 to the pound. This was a brief period, but nice for my then student budget.
Ooze, I too have rethought your strange park phenomenon. Here's what I think. Average Indian immigrants in the USA do not converge on a campground. They were obviously there for (a) bizarre tantric rituals involving the need to upset placid Pennsylvania locals or (b) a rare get-together involving the usual loud music, scotch-consumption and caterwauling children. My bet is on the latter.
They probably checked with the authorities and were told that all was okay until ten - so indulged. Not being familiar with the niceties of campground behavior , they may have ruffled the bucolic order more than they knew.
Or perhaps it was (a) after all, in which case you are lucky you escaped a solid buggering and the ritual decapitation and violation of your companions.
1423. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 1:25:57 PM
Webbie,
Though I haven't a prayer of taking advantage, could you please tell us where you got that ridiculous return fare to Nice?
1424. Uzmakk - 6/8/2001 1:53:52 PM
janjon:
re: shitty English goods
You can't buy the stuff I need in this country.
1425. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 1:58:46 PM
There are lots of things I covet from England. According to me, one cannot purchase a decent umbrella in this country, for instance, or a decent blazer, or a good raincoat, or proper shaving equipment. All these things, plus books by the armful, I buy in England.
1426. janjon - 6/8/2001 2:22:02 PM
oh, I certainly overspoke when I castigated the English made wares. There are certainly some superb things out there. But, there are an abundance of clunkers too.
as for men's clothing, unless you are a Saville Row habitue', you can get most of the better English made things here - for a bit less money....
The real value and bargain in men's clothing - especially the outer stuff - is Canada. Extremely well made overcoats etc. and ludicrously cheap by American standards.
God Bless the Weak Canadian Dollar.
1427. Webfeet - 6/8/2001 4:01:42 PM
No, marj, it's just because my husband works for Air France. It's an amazing perk in exchange for working as an apparatchik of the French govt. They're a little too ceremonious and bureaucratic there for his taste but it certainly compensates.
This is how it works: after the first six months, you can pay 10% of the fare if you fly standby and 25% of the fare with reservation. Flying standby is actually pretty easy most of the time--he can check availability in advance. My husband will be joining us later in the week, but he's coming via Paris and is taking a reservation since those flights are usually booked solid this time of year.
If you work there for 2 years, then your parents and in-laws can use the discount as well. But it stops there, darling. Not even little sisters get breaks.
1428. Uzmakk - 6/8/2001 4:19:43 PM
Banks:
chuckle, chuckle
1429. JJBiener - 6/8/2001 4:46:20 PM
Webbie - If you work there for 2 years, then your parents and in-laws can use the discount as well.
I have a confession to make. I am your father.
1430. Jenerator - 6/11/2001 5:17:35 PM
Marj,
I *love* the Rochester book stores! What treasures.
My suitcases were overweight everytime I came home because of books.
Try a golf umbrella if you want your wife, your child and yourself to stay dry during the next rain.
1431. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 8:53:52 PM
The very best English wares are articles made for men. Alfred Dunhill is the most well-known but the English have been making neat stuff for men since the snuffboxes of the 18th century: just heft a Dunhill lighter in hand - the size is perfect, the weight reassures it will easily last through to your grandson's lifetime, the click when closing - this is quality. English shaving gear is a treat - hell, anything in sterling for men by the English is sure to be very, very good. And it lasts, no matter tea caddy, cigarette case or cigar cutter, aviator's watch or penknife.
Note that I find gold accessories for men overly effeminate, overly Italianate for my personal tastes but I allow some like'em.
1432. Jenerator - 6/11/2001 9:24:30 PM
While in England I was always on the lookout for something quintessentially English but had a hard time finding anything.
I can get Dunhill here, I can get Burberry's here, I can get excellent English tea here, I can get Doc Martens here, I can get Wedgewood here, etc.
1433. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 9:25:46 PM
How about a lark spit?
1434. Jenerator - 6/11/2001 9:26:30 PM
I have three of them.
Huh?
1435. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 9:27:30 PM
And, I return to my original comment: get an 19th century snuffbox, or teaspoon used to take tea from the caddy. These are most always works of small art.
1436. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 9:28:09 PM
I intended 18th century snuffbox.
1437. Jenerator - 6/11/2001 9:37:49 PM
Scott,
If I purchase anything 18th century, it's cherubim in bisque porcelain.
I have a sterling tea caddy and several spoons, and I hate to say this, but I bought them in Texas!
After I had won the scholarship to study abroad, I contacted the owner of a prominent antique store in Dallas to be his liason while overseas. (The time before then that I was in his store, I overhead him fumbling in French on the phone and hanging up on his liason complaining that good help was hard to find.) He shared with me that his scout was supposed to be buying certain pieces for him, but had misordered in England as well as France.
We then talked about my future location...45 miles from London, one block from the Cathedral, France being a short boat trip away.
I did even more research on antiques and periods with his help.
Unfortunately the deal didn't come through because he was hoping to get some nookie on the side, but I left for England with the dates and places of all of the markets and bizarres.
1438. Rama - 6/11/2001 9:43:17 PM
Is it still possible to get a blackthorn walking stick?
1439. Jenerator - 6/11/2001 9:48:55 PM
Anything's possible, but prices aren't low.
Unless you're able to buy in bulk, the prices are outrageous and the taxes to ship back add to the price.
Collectibles are easier to purchase, such as your walking stick, but unless you found an aged man wanting to get rid of it cheaply, it'd be hard to find on the open market for a good deal.
Plus, the dealers are less apt to discount anything.
One of the flea markets I went to 9sponsored by a local church and its attendants -- all over 65) provided for the only truly good deals I was able to snag.
I bought a late 19th C cross stick in oak frame for 20 USD.
the other good deal was a Sevres peau de creme for 500 pounds, but I passed.
1440. sakonige - 6/14/2001 3:54:14 AM
The Panjshir Valley
1441. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 6:00:11 AM
Reminds me of Afghanistan, in and around the Salang Mountains, going overland from Kabul to Kunduz.
1442. stostosto - 6/14/2001 6:17:52 AM
Reminds me of Carl Barks settings for exotic Donald Duck stories. Langtbortistan in Danish, which might translate as Remotistan.
1443. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 6:24:40 AM
In such a place the waters run icy cold and grapes and melons abound. Overall is the smell of cooking smoke and daylight has a sharpness which brings even far away details into clarity.
1444. stostosto - 6/14/2001 8:20:48 AM
Loar, that's a crisp and sensual observation.
1445. sakonige - 6/14/2001 12:56:28 PM
The force of the river slicing through the valley is breathtaking. The brown villages seem to merge into the earth of the river's banks. It doesn't look like any region of north America to me, it's a very far away land.
1446. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 1:04:37 PM
I've been to valleys that look just like that. Loar's crystal description is very apt.
In the Kinnaur valley, in the upper reaches of Himachal Pradesh and leading up to the Chinese border, the view is very similar but the drop from mountain to field and river is more abrupt. Imagine a road cut halfway up on one of those mountains in the picture, and imagine a careening bus overloaded with passengers and farm animals.
I rode (atop!) a bus like that on a day so clear that the view literally hurt your eyes, chomping on a donated cucumber, and drinking in the fields which were a bright baby pink interspersed with rich paddy-green. It was hallucinatory even without the smell of lush marijuana that grew all along the roadside's precipice.
1447. sakonige - 6/14/2001 1:05:15 PM
The photograph is from a NTY feature on Afghanistan scathingly critical of the Taliban. I appreciated having the benefit of insights gained through an introduction to Afghan culture and history in online forums like this one.
1448. sakonige - 6/14/2001 1:10:00 PM
The way that river is moving and its size tell you it is coming from a very big mountain range.
1449. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 1:18:19 PM
All the mountains in that band across to China are big. But remember that there are seasonal effects on the size and speed of the rivers.
It's easy to lose yourself in the Himalayas. I can understand why lamas and sadhus and other mystics have gone there to immerse themselves in solitary contemplation. The air is fine, the vistas spectacular, the water brilliantly clear, the atmosphere bracing and energized.
But, in the end, there are mountain people and there are people like me who only like to visit the mountains now and again. To me, the sight of the ocean is essential for life. Or at least a really big river. I've spent literally 75% of my life in proximity to or in plain view of either.
If I lean back in my seat right now, I have the reasurance of the mighty Hudson, a river i've come to love as much as the humble Mandovi that has cradled my antecedents for hundreds and hundreds of years.
1450. thoughtful - 6/14/2001 1:50:20 PM
banks...go to hawaii...then you can have both the ocean view and sit upon the highest mountains in the world (if you count from their base at the sea bottom)
1451. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 2:08:09 PM
Thoughtful.... high on my list.
Though any old sunsplashed island is good as far as I'm concerned.
1452. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 7:20:52 AM
Looking down from a light plane over the northern coast of Jamaica (flying from Montego Bay to Port Antonio) the depths look like opals, huge opals almost to where sea meets shore. I still see that in any dark opal.
1453. thoughtful - 6/15/2001 9:38:45 AM
I still remember the drama of the sunrise from atop haleakala (Hawaiian for house of the sun). Before the sun rose, the stars were so dense that I couldn't pick out a single constellation....almost more stars than sky. Then when the sun rose the whole mountainside gradually became flooded with light and you were stunned to find out just how high up in the sky you were. We turned around and went to look west and there across all of maui lay this tremendous cone-shaped shadow...you could see the entire outline of the mountain. With that, we headed down into the crater...astronauts practiced moon walks there and upon their return said the landscape is very much like that of the moon.
1454. thoughtful - 6/15/2001 9:43:11 AM
Colors burned into my memory...the blue of crater lake, the aqua of ice trapped inside a glacier, the red in the lava at kiluaea, the copper patina color of lake louise, the salmon of bryce canyon, the yellow of rape fields across england....
1455. thoughtful - 6/15/2001 9:43:27 AM
and of course, the green flash.
1456. seadate - 6/15/2001 9:45:28 AM
Where did you see the green flash?
1457. thoughtful - 6/15/2001 9:55:40 AM
I saw it twice. Once from an airplane where the clouds below stretched out to the horizon making it possible. Once as the sun sank into the ocean.
1458. seadate - 6/15/2001 9:58:20 AM
I'm envious.
1459. thoughtful - 6/15/2001 11:19:42 AM
It's fun because it's rare to see it, but the color is not unique to the sun....look at any prism or a nicely cut diamond in the sun and you will see the same shade of green...and as you wiggle the diamond so it runs through the spectrum you can see what a narrow band that green color occupies in the spectrum.
1460. thoughtful - 6/15/2001 11:22:59 AM
Fragrances of trips are even more fun to recall...the smell of the cookies baking in sturbridge village...the scent of the pine forests we hiked in oregon...the orange blossoms as we drove across FL...the smell of chocolate throughout hershey PA...and the smell that permeated hubby's luggage on his return from india.
1461. sakonige - 6/17/2001 4:30:45 PM
We arrived at the powwow a little late, in accordance with Indian time, and found the grand entry ceremony had been delayed an hour. It was a gorgeous day, about 68º with a fresh breeze blowing the morning clouds away from the water. After browsing through the dozen stalls filled with jewelry, records, toys and junk, we found a good place to spread a small blanket on the grass at the edge of the circular dance arena. Three large powwow drums had been set up near the judges stand, and one group of eight or so singers, also referred to as a drum, was warming up, sounding very good. As the color guard assembled near the arena entrance for the grand entry, the announcer apologized again for the delays, and explained that the family of a girl named Sunshine from an inland tribe wanted to perform a traditional coming of age ceremony for her on the consecrated grounds in the presence of her father's family who lived on the reservation, and with the blessing of the spiritual leaders and community who were assembled for the powwow.
I could see the family group of thirty or forty people huddled near the judges stand, and guessed they were performing a religious ceremony. After a few moments, a man took the microphone and introduced himself as Sunshine's step-father, thanking everyone for witnessing Sunshine's coming out ceremony and explaining how important this traditional experience was to her, as she was preparing to depart on a world tour with a group of native American dancers. Her mother also spoke with an apologetic shyness about the significance of the ceremony and the family's appreciation for our participation in it.
1462. sakonige - 6/17/2001 4:32:11 PM
The announcer introduced the drum who had been singing during the ceremony as the Bad Boyz from somewhere in western Canada. They were the principle guest drum of the powwow, one of six drums that had been invited. The Bad Boyz have a vibrant style and a great range of voices, including a couple of falsettos and a very low baritone, exquisite native American wavering vocal effects and someone who could do all kinds of coyote yips. All six of the drums at the powwow were outstanding and quite varied in style. One of the groups was mainly women. Another was all old guys.
The announcer explained that the Bad Boyz had written a traditional powwow song especially for Sunshine for her coming out ceremony, that because it was her song alone, no one should record it. As the drum sang her song, Sunshine walked slowly around the circle of the arena with a soft tapping dance step. She was a delicate, pretty, aloof Indian girl of about fourteen wearing a bright blue-green jingle dress, a kind of dress with a narrow long skirt trimmed with rows of conical silver bells, with vividly colorful matching shawl with fringe that hung to her ankles, and a lot of intricate beadwork accessories. She was flanked by two girls about the same age dressed in screamingly vivid colors, and followed by her parents and the rest of her family, many in bright regalia, all proceeding slowly three abreast around the arena in a counter-clockwise direction.
1463. sakonige - 6/17/2001 4:35:36 PM
When they had completed the circuit, the drum began another song as a couple of guys began spreading blankets on the grass at one side of the arena. Then people started bringing laundry baskets filled with small household items into the arena and quickly spreading it out on the blankets. There were things like towels and tupperware containers, inexpensive blankets and jars of homemade jam and little enamel cooking pots. The laundry baskets themselves were added to the heap. After all of the household stuff was all spread out, a considerable pile, some special items were arranged on the collection, such as sports equipment and tools. Sunshine's father explained that by accepting these items she was giving away, we would be helping her on her journey, and he thanked us for accepting her gifts. She first presented special gifts from the pile to her grandmother, other family and friends and the drum. Then elders in attendance were invited to select a few items, then everyone else came forward. I got a washcloth with blue and green stripes, to dry my tears and wash my sins away. It was quite a moving ceremony. After everything had been given away, Sunshine's stepdad went around the arena again and shook hands with everyone sitting at the edge of the circle, and thanked us again for helping her by accepting her gifts.
1464. sakonige - 6/17/2001 4:38:39 PM
Then they did the grand entry. That was quite a process, too, since this was a traditional powwow. It took about 45 minutes and required standing the whole time. If you sat down, a big, scowling Indian with a riding-crop kind of whip would come by and tell you to stand back up.
1465. sakonige - 6/17/2001 5:22:48 PM
fancy dance regalia
There are a many different kinds of native American dance regalia. The one common theme is lots of color.
1466. sakonige - 6/17/2001 5:52:14 PM
What I wish I had a picture of is the way the eleven-man war canoes looked on the sunlit water. The three-mile course was laid out on the sheltered island passage that the Indian village faces. The water looked like a field of blue diamonds.
1467. sakonige - 6/17/2001 6:01:06 PM
After watching the exhibitional stuff and listening to all the drums at the powwow arena, we went over to the beach to watch one of the eleven-man canoe competitions, and got another great seat on the driftwood, next to the crew that won the race.
They were good looking atheletes and knew it.
1468. sakonige - 6/17/2001 6:13:41 PM
the canoes are so sleek and low in the water. Their movement is coordinated like the movement of a single organism, an individual animal. The man at the back of the canoe steers and calls out orders for the paddlers to switch sides, switching strong arms and weak arms to turn the craft without losing speed. He calls a signal, and the crew responds "one, two", then switches sides.
1469. sakonige - 6/17/2001 6:46:44 PM
The winning crew was so beautiful, brown as their cedar craft, with their shirts stripped off.
1470. ScottLoar - 6/17/2001 8:45:56 PM
Fancy dance regalia has become common to all regardless of tribe. I like the traditional, rare as it is becoming.
1471. sakonige - 6/17/2001 8:50:33 PM
I think you get some of each, in most cases. There was a jester kind of guy at this dance who was dressed in some northern style regalia, with an eagle staff. He noticed me, and boinked by at one point, and almost whacked me on the head with his eagle staff, and then looked away like nothing had happened. I think I got blessed.
1472. sakonige - 6/17/2001 8:55:14 PM
American Indian kids are crazy about powwows. You can't stop that. The kids love powwow dancing.
1473. sakonige - 6/17/2001 8:57:29 PM
The site was swarming with teenagers.
1474. sakonige - 6/17/2001 9:07:49 PM
They were gathering for the dance from 9 pm til midnight. No doubt about it.
1475. sakonige - 6/17/2001 9:11:49 PM
anyway
1476. sakonige - 6/17/2001 9:55:23 PM
I might slash him. he's not joking. neither am I. his said his best friend is gay. I might make him defend himself.
1477. sakonige - 6/17/2001 10:00:33 PM
I might insist he explain his offspring. I could do that.
1478. sakonige - 6/17/2001 10:12:50 PM
you never know how you are going to lose.
1479. JJBiener - 6/18/2001 12:16:59 AM
sakonige - Excellent descriptions. Thank you for posting.
1480. sakonige - 6/18/2001 11:08:04 AM
Looks like I put some stuff in the wrong posting box. Sorry about that, JJBeiner. Go ahead and delete it, if you like.
1481. Jean B. - 6/20/2001 12:12:19 AM
DH and I recently took a leisurely auto trip of about six weeks, and in general had a great time. But there's always a few gripes here and there, especially about motels. Anyone have any pet peeves you'd like to share?
I'll start with wondering who came up with the idea of telling the maids to tuck in the top sheet and blanket on both sides of the bed. When you pull them down in order to get into the bed, you also pull out the bottom sheet (hotels rarely use fitted bottom sheets, which is another gripe) and have to re-make the bed. We found that some of the bottom sheets on a king bed seem to be queen size, so they barely fit, so in the middle of the night they are wrapped around our necks. Grrrr!
Okay, anyone else with a pet peeve?
1482. CalGal - 6/20/2001 12:18:26 AM
Wow, 6 weeks. Where did you go?
Pet peeve while driving: People who are in my way.
The one thing that bothers me when I'm driving somewhere is when I see the place I'm looking for (hotel, restaurant, whatever) at the same moment that I drive by it. Then, of course, I turn right to go around the block and end up on a freeway that doesn't have an exit for 15 miles, and that exit doesn't have an entrance back on the freeway.
I really, really hate that.
1483. Shannon - 6/20/2001 12:22:33 AM
Exits w/o corresponding entrances are annoying as hell. BR has tons of them. I'm pretty well used to them, but when I worked in hotels I HATED having to give directions.
1484. CalGal - 6/20/2001 12:27:34 AM
She does not speak of LA. Does this mean the Californians have trained her well?
1485. Shannon - 6/20/2001 12:31:13 AM
Heh. I don't think they're common in LA as a rule, though. Just here. Well, I guess NO's downtown exits are kind of funky too, now that I think about it. The really annoying thing about NO is the fact that left turns aren't legal anywhere, it seems. BR tries to emulate this.
1486. grannypatsy - 6/20/2001 5:26:05 AM
Obviously I am not on the high seas awaiting the eclipse.Really wanted to do that despite dusty's tale of no food on a cargo ship.The eclipse will happen anyway. Space.com will be showing it llive on their site. Not the same. Sigh. Tje eclipse and the soltice are just a ffew hours apart. I can particpate in the soltice and celebrate the longest day.And be thankful for having had a good deal of intrepid solo travel.
1487. thoughtful - 6/20/2001 9:52:10 AM
Hotel pet peeves...I want to nail the plumber in charge of noisy pipes...he must be involved in plumbing design for most hotels/motels across the nation. Then I want to nail his cousin who designs hotel hallways to be so perfectly acoustic that the slightest sound made by anyone in the hall...even a footfall on carpeting...gets amplified several fold and broadcast directly into the room....seems to be especially effective at 2 a.m.
1488. thoughtful - 6/20/2001 9:54:40 AM
And my biggest pet peeve of all...those hotel "honor bars" that only seem to honor your wallet. The fridges are noisy, a waste of energy, and you can't touch a single item in there...even a pathetic bag of peanuts for under $5. If they really expect to sell anything, why don't they price it reasonably....same stuff in the gift shop for 1/5 the price.
1489. JJBiener - 6/20/2001 11:52:09 AM
Pet peeve: Room service where they automatically add tip, delivery charge and a service fee to an already overpriced meal. At one hotel it amounted to almost 40% of the bill.
Consolation: it gets reimbursed for business travel.
1490. CalGal - 6/20/2001 12:39:21 PM
The opposite of a pet peeve: hotels that leave their gyms open 24 hours. Thanks!
1491. janjon - 6/20/2001 12:48:36 PM
Hotels that impose exhorbitant fees for telephone usage (sometimes even in connecting to a 800 number).
Even worse are those that only inform you of this fact in some miniscule notice placed in a illogical place.
1492. JJBiener - 6/20/2001 12:52:55 PM
janjon - Hotels that impose exhorbitant fees for telephone usage
Thank God for cell phones. I haven't used a hotel phone in years.
1493. ScottLoar - 6/20/2001 1:18:28 PM
How do you hook-up to the internet without using the hotel phone connection?
1494. janjon - 6/20/2001 1:49:46 PM
that, plus the fact that a lot of cell phones (well, certainly mine) don't work in Europe. Which is where a lot of the bigger telephone charges abuse occurs, based on my experience.
1495. ScottLoar - 6/20/2001 2:30:28 PM
Early morning check-out. I commonly leave hotels in the very early morning to catch very early flights to other countries as do many of the other guests. So, there we all are at 4 or 5 a.m., at least 4 or 5 of us all lined up to check out and one very slow night auditor managing each one of us in turn. Again and again I experience this regardless of country or location save Las Vegas.
1496. Jean B. - 6/20/2001 3:24:34 PM
Thoughtful, I agree with you about the noise factor in the plumbing. How do they do that? Plumbing in homes doesn't broadcast the noise to every room within fifty feet.
Phone charges for local calls are an abomination, but sometimes cannot be avoided. What's really fun is having an unstable internet connection with the laptop, getting thrown off every five minutes, and having to log back on and on and on, each time costing money. AOL's really good at this in some locations (thank heavens not all). I give up once I've done the necessary email checks, but wonder how people who are traveling for business and must stay connected handle that situation.
1497. Jean B. - 6/20/2001 3:28:49 PM
Cal, we left Arizona on April 17 and returned home May 24. Our stops included Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, Jefferson City, St. Louis, Southern Illinois, Nashville, Vicksburg, Baton Rouge (hi, Shannon!) San Antonio, and we finished up with a train trip to and from the Grand Canyon. Had a great time!
We enjoy traveling by car, hate flying. The only place I'd consider flying to is Hawaii, and that's only because I have no choice.
1498. Jean B. - 6/20/2001 3:30:28 PM
Travel Tip: NEVER stay in a hotel that is hosting a prom night or graduation night.
1499. CalGal - 6/20/2001 3:32:33 PM
I like driving a great deal, but don't much enjoy travelling by car. Right now my opinion is probably shaded by the fact that my last two trips to LA, usually a fun drive, were nightmarishly slow. Yes, they were holiday weekends but I've done weekends before and they've never been this bad.
That's quite the round trip you did there. What did you think of the Grand Canyon?
1500. JJBiener - 6/20/2001 3:37:44 PM
Scott - Most of the hotels I have stayed at over the last two years have had data connections that weren't subject to local phone charges.
janjon - I didn't think about Europe. I haven't been there in quite some time so I am not familiar with current conditions there. The last time I was there it was outrageous.
1501. JJBiener - 6/20/2001 3:40:18 PM
Jean B - You came through St Louis and you didn't even stop and say hello? I am disappointed.
1502. Jean B. - 6/20/2001 3:59:13 PM
Next time, JJ!
The train trip to the Grand Canyon was fun, if a little long (it travels rather slowly). The canyon is lovely, breathtaking, all of the descriptions you've ever heard are correct. We want to stay up there for a night or two, at El Tovar, which overlooks the canyon. It's pricy, but if we do it, we're going to go all the way.
On the trip back, there were bad guys robbing the train, an inept marshall to catch them -- it was fun.
1503. PelleNilsson - 6/20/2001 4:59:13 PM
janjon
If you travel to Europe often it might be a good idea to sign up for one of these promotional deals which will give you a subscription and a handset for $10-20 with a refill card, no monthly fee.
1504. Jenerator - 6/20/2001 6:28:03 PM
My only hotel pet peeve is when room service comes entirely too early.
1505. jonesatlaw - 6/21/2001 1:45:58 AM
Just back from vacation, and I have a couple of travel tips for those of you who will brave the crowds at Disneyworld. Stay on site, and go to whatever park is having early open hours that day. Leave for lunch and go back to your hotel and nap or swim til at least two in the afternoon. Fewer kids having meltdowns over standing in line, being tired, hot etc. (parents too) and you miss the most crowded and frustrating time in the park.
Also, unless you are a fitness freak with a need to powerwalk the hell out of your vacation, ignore the guidebooks that tell you to criss cross the parks early to hit the most popular rides. Skip it and use the "fastpass" system instead. Finally, if you love a particular ride, get a fastpass for it and then go to the standby lane. With luck, you'll be able to ride once while standing in line, and then turn around for another turn on your pass. This works great at the Rock and Roll Rollercoaster. We managed to hit it three times and the Tower of Terror twice in less than two hours during a fairly busy weekend.
1506. CalGal - 6/21/2001 2:22:08 AM
Yep. Although I always recommend going back in after the parade at night and staying until the park closes. You can get more rides in four hours than you can in twice the time in the middle of the day.
The five-day pass is a must. And don't skimp on the water parks; they're wonderful.
Stay on site
This can't be stressed strongly enough. Don't try to save money, don't decide that you won't "do the whole Disney thing". If you're going to Disney at all, you must do the Disney thing. The Key West condos are wonderfully furnished, and the whirlpool tub is something you won't want to miss after a long day at the parks. Don't bother with the hotels.
1507. Frankster - 6/21/2001 3:52:52 AM
Noisy guests. Guests who wake up very early every morning in the room next to you as if you were in some soundproof chamber. It isn't enough that their shower and toilet flushings will probably prematurely wake one anyway, but they go that step further by either turning up their room TV's volume so the whole floor can hear it, or talking so loud one would think they were waking up under a busy freeway underpass.
Another one ? How about night clerks, who seem to know very little about their immediate surroundings. That is, they don't know where the nearest gas station, drug store, rent-a-car agency, laundrymat, post office, walk-in diner, or even where their nearest competitor resided ... This happened a great deal in London last year.
I dunno, but it seems to me that if I'm going to work at a place where such questions are likely to arise from weary travellers, I would do everything I could to learn where everything existed within two or three square miles of the place.
1508. Jean B. - 6/21/2001 11:59:21 AM
Noisy guests, Volume Two: The ones who talk VERY loudly while walking up and down the corridors, usually at 2 a.m.
The little kids who have to let off steam by jumping and running -- hey, that's fine, but why in the room just above ours? And what are those kids doing up at midnight anyway?
We once shared a lovely old hotel with a large group of graduation-night celebrators who kept us up all night. We finally left about 5 a.m., and enjoyed the sight of several of the noisemakers puking in the flower beds.
1509. thoughtful - 6/21/2001 3:39:55 PM
One old B&B in PA we stayed at was the absolute worst. Very nicely decorated, they gave us a corner room overlooking the intersection...canopy bed and all. When we took the room, we enjoyed the scene of a few cars going by and some horse-drawn carriages on the street. Very nice.
Little did we know that the state route it was on became a major trucking by-pass route at nightfall and we got nary a wink of sleep all night. Semi's right outside our room downshifting for the traffic light on the corner and then starting up again as the light turned green...and of course those lovely antique windows don't even have storms on them to quiet the noise. Awful!
1510. Frankster - 6/21/2001 3:51:55 PM
...Semi's right outside our room downshifting for the traffic light on the corner and then starting up again as the light turned green..
I can't help but laugh out loud at this. Boy have I been there. Your post, Thoughtful, reminds me a bit of that I Love Lucyepisode where they unknowingly stay in a room next to a railroad track.
1511. janjon - 6/21/2001 3:52:33 PM
let us be more specific.
noisy guests who are playing superman/woman and having very very noisy sex - as often as they can and at the most awkward hours.
Cured me of voyeurism - fast.
1512. thoughtful - 6/21/2001 4:06:36 PM
janjon...can I relate to your last post! My mother and I went on a shopping spree to the outlets which of course included an overnight stay...at a not very expensive hotel. After all we were bargain hunting. Well, I can't tell you the embarrassment of waking up from a sound sleep as the couple in the next room came in ... door slamming of course ... and proceeded to jump in bed and copulate away, bed banging into the wall that backed up to the wall at the head of our beds. Here I was, laying in bed, just hoping beyond hope that my mother didn't awake to hear the activity...though I know she's a very light sleeper. Little did I know she was awake, hoping the same for me. When they were finally finished...actually only took about 10 min tops...my mom said, "Phew! Glad that's over!" and I near about died of laughter.
1513. janjon - 6/21/2001 4:24:46 PM
only once, eh?
you have no idea how lucky you were.
1514. thoughtful - 6/21/2001 4:28:45 PM
I'm sure our uproarious laughter when they finished was enough to put anyone out of the mood.
1515. Seamus - 6/21/2001 5:11:10 PM
Twenty-somethings who look at the passport and immediately step up the volume and hand gesture levels.
Twenty-somethings asking what Scotland is like.
To be fair, pet "likes" include wait staff who have read, or are at least interested in, the book I'm reading or in some news of the day.
In New Orleans, a server noticed that I was reading "As I Lay Dying". Over the course of the evening, I was visited by the executive chef, the manager, nearly all of the wait staff, a clerk from the front desk and a number of other diners. We discussed Faulkner, Candace's motivations, suicide rates in Mississippi and the best local alcohols. Several of us were still at the table when they closed the restaurant around us.
I've found an open book and an open outlook a great way to make friends and pass time on the road.
Or maybe it's the alcohol.
1516. JJBiener - 6/21/2001 5:24:10 PM
Seamus - New Orleans is one of my favorite cities. I was just there in March and had a great time.
1517. Jean B. - 6/21/2001 6:11:50 PM
I know lots of people are crazy about New Orleans, but have to ask WHY! On our recent trip, we had planned to stay there, but decided to start in Baton Rouge, drive to NO, and perhaps stay there if we liked it. So, we headed for the D-Day Museum, got lost, finally found it but had a lot of time to see various neighborhoods. Then we drove around the Riverfront and French Quarter areas, which were dirty, jammed, and hard to navigate.
We had planned to return to NO for a river cruise, and decided once was enough, so didn't go back.
I hear the many restaurants are great, but great restaurants can be found in a lot of places. What is it about NO that makes people go all glassy-eyed?
1518. janjon - 6/21/2001 6:14:10 PM
no, great restaurantS cannot be found in a lot of places. Only a handful of American cities can claim to have even a handful of same.
1519. ScottLoar - 6/21/2001 10:23:43 PM
Many of the period homes now become B&B and stately mansions were built hard along colonial post roads that expanded to accomodate traffic and so Message # 1509 rings true, especially in the East; I've seen truck traffic rumble within feet of Georgian brickwork. Or, progress vacated the area a hundred years or more ago and those buildings sit isolated and too often neglected by want.
1520. ScottLoar - 6/21/2001 10:27:44 PM
New Orleans, at least the French Quarter and Garden District, is exciting and romantic in turn and, yes, the food is damned good, exciting and romantic compared to the bulk of American restaurants.
People have been pissing, whoring and roaring in the French Quarter for almost two hundred years and I guess you can just feel it. Well, I like to think I can. I've been to many, many places, and I still like New Orleans.
1521. ScottLoar - 6/21/2001 10:33:19 PM
Years ago I rolled in silent agony listening to the two in the next room; their first time together and by their comments obviously not married. In the morning I timed my exit to match that of the girl leaving next door, just so I could see her face.
Well? I was young, and curious.
1522. ScottLoar - 6/21/2001 10:36:11 PM
Which makes me think, more than once the person next door has exited the same time as me and looked full into my face.
1523. arkymalarky - 6/22/2001 12:58:23 AM
I've only been to NO once, but I stayed a whole week and loved it. Bob's been several times and loves it too, but we've never gone together.
Worst night I ever spent in a motel was when I was still living at home and we went from our cabin in CO to Yellowstone Park. We were an hour and a half away and Dad stopped in some dinky town and asked at the gas station about motels, and the guy said, "Oh, you'll never get one now. They'll be full all the way to YS. My brother-in-law, though, has a great motel right up the road." My dad has lived hard and done a lot, but there's still a naievete about him that I guess will never go away, seeing that he's now bumping 70.
So we find this motel and it is a dive that looks like it was built in the 40s and neglected for the 30+ years since. We went in and it was the nastiest, most depressing room I'd ever seen. After Dad killed the scorpion on the wall and the owner showed us how the contraption he called an air conditioner worked (turned out, not at all) we began to settle in and two motorcycles pulled up next door--really magged out choppers--with two guys and a girl, who looked like Hell's Angels rejects. Their evening began early with loud talking, laughing, and banging, and ended with violent retching. A fun evening all around.
1524. Frankster - 6/22/2001 1:40:58 AM
About these noisy travellers: I can certainly understand the "high" experienced of being on the road on vacation, but why does "consideration" fly out the window the second some people hit that road ? Don't they realize that there are other travellers there -- and tired ones at that -- who might not care for their rudeness or noise ? Loud, obnoxious behavior is just that, wherever one goes.
Shit. You just reminded me of a particular night at a London hostel. I should have went out and just clocked the motherfuckers!
1525. arkymalarky - 6/22/2001 1:47:53 AM
One of Bob's best friends used to travel on the job and his "worst motel" story was one late night when he was desperate and took the only thing he could find, and it was so nasty that he wouldn't sleep on the bed, but made a pallet on the floor (I would have been afraid to sleep there) and threw away and the clothes he slept in away the next morning before leaving.
1526. arkymalarky - 6/22/2001 1:48:56 AM
"threw the pallet and the clothes...."
1527. Frankster - 6/22/2001 1:51:32 AM
Arky,
Whatchadoingupwoman ? ;-) I had a mattress in Paris that felt like a pallet, with a list at that.
1528. arkymalarky - 6/22/2001 1:54:11 AM
I don't know. I was actually thinking about heading for bed, but got to reading and discussing more than usual and had more things I wanted to post about than usual.
1529. Frankster - 6/22/2001 2:00:22 AM
Arky - How many hours of sleep do you usually require ? If you only require five to six hours, then have at it.
Besides, should we ever meet, I expect you to stay consistent in that regard, and stay up until the wee hours of the morning chatting about everything under the sun, as other reunions have done also.
1530. arkymalarky - 6/22/2001 2:10:59 AM
Actually, I like having at least 8, and 9 is great. I'll get plenty, though, because I don't mind sleeping late and I don't have to get up early tomorrow. For gatherings and fun (especially wonderful company!) I can stay up all night and work the next day and it not bother me. The one time it did was when the Razorbacks got the NCAA championship (why on a Thursday?!) and I celebrated a bit too much for a weekday. I was worn out the next day. Otherwise, though, we have company and stay up plenty often enough that it's never a problem.
Bob's best friend lives about two hours away and he comes down often, and they've been known on quite a few occasions to see the sun come up. In fact, I remember a few of those myself.
1531. thoughtful - 6/22/2001 2:40:26 PM
Anyone up for airline pet peeves? Like can they make a packet of pretzels any smaller? Like when they tell you the flight will be delayed 20 min. when it's already past departure time and there's no crew or plane in sight? Like when they look at how few people are on the flight and decide to cancel it "for mechanical difficulties" when you know darn well they're just too cheap to keep their commitment? Like when we had to taxi back to the gate to let the woman off who got on the wrong flight...aren't the gate agents supposed to LOOK at the flight coupon to see that the person is on the right flight?!?
1532. ScottLoar - 6/22/2001 3:03:20 PM
I do not like the residue those before me leave, and so when the hot towels are passed out I use mine to clean the armrest, table and console top. Some stewardess think me a bit too much, others hover by and engage me in small talk after that exercise.
1533. Frankster - 6/22/2001 3:05:32 PM
Arky,
Didn't mean to leave you hanging like that, but I haven't been able to log on -- to any site since then. I just keep getting a blank screen with a box telling me the server can't locate the URL to a site. The only bookmark that "works", is the one to my ISP, and half of their links aren't operating currently. I'm surprised I got through this time. :-(
Well, just as long as you don't fall asleep should we ever get together, huh ? ;-)
Airline gripe ? Here's one many won't encounter often: How about when your flight is bumped up on the flight schedule and you miss your flight because of it. It almost happened to me last year at Heathrow, and it happened to my sister's family this year at Charles DeGaulle.
I arrived with the usual hour-and-a-half cushion and I was at the check-in line, only to be yanked from the line and processed through in front of everyone else there at the time. I and another passenger were rushed through the gates to find a fully loaded aircraft waiting for us so the thing could depart. I and the other passenger just looked at each other with puzzled looks. I know it beats the alternative, that of a flight leaving late, but what was going on there ?
Thoughtful -- You eat those pretzels ? ;-)
1534. janjon - 6/22/2001 3:07:36 PM
I had almost all of that happen on a relatively recent trip from London to NYC. Except the person who had to be left off the plane was ill, not just confused. And, this being a combined flight (the earlier one I was on was cancelled "for administrative reasons"), it was full. I knew when the pilot said that we would just be dropping off the sick one and get back in the takeoff queue (we had been NUMBER TWO at the time) that that would only work if the sickie was also a kid who was traveling with a backpack. No such luck. We had to wait for almost a hour while they fished his luggage out. Then, we went to the back of the still very long queue.
Ah well, they didn't run out of champagne.
1535. arkymalarky - 6/22/2001 3:14:04 PM
That's all right, Frank. I went to bed right after that anyway. When we meet up we'll make it a contest as to who can outlast the other!
Scott,
Certain things from the Mote/Fray stick with me and your description of passengers disembarking from some flight in the South Pacific or somewhere still makes me laugh when I think about it. And the one ProfEmeritus told about the young man's bird dying of heat on a plane while he was trying desperately to retrieve him still bothers me.
1536. janjon - 6/22/2001 3:19:51 PM
I have been on flights in Latin America where pandemonium ensued while passengers tried to retrieve chickens that had gotten loose.
Note the plural on flight.
I've also had one flight return to the airport because of the little hibachi that some of the people at the rear of the airplane had set up.
Made me wonder about the security clearance in that particular part of heaven called Latin America.
I was on yet another flight from Latin America where before takeoff the plane taxied back to the terminal, whereupon five or six very imposing and gaudily (as in lots of braids and amulets etc.) "police" officers took MY SEATMATE off the plane with great efficiency. (I later inquired through friends at the U.S. Embassy and learned that it was a "political" arrest.)
1537. ScottLoar - 6/22/2001 3:22:31 PM
Arkymalarky, I'm sincerely glad you remembered. I've honestly forgotten much more than I can immediately recall.
I do not like persons in the most forward seats who put their shoed feet onto the bulkhead. I especially do not like kiddies who thump the back of my seat, or persons next to me who allow their legs to twitch uncontrollably rocking the entire row. Twelve, fourteen, fifteen hours in the air and these things wear on one; I'm always careful not to show my scalping knife.
1538. janjon - 6/22/2001 3:29:52 PM
My God. I just thought of another experience which will combine two of our current themes.
I was on one of the overnight flights from NYC to either London or Paris, I forget. Sitting in business class which was only about half full. After the lights had gone down (thus, about half way over the pond), I heard a lot of rustling across the aisle in the two seats next to the window.) I looked over and it was quite obvious that the man (in the aisle) seat was trying to have sex (there were blankets galore) with the woman near the window. Ha. In business class, the arm rest usually doesn't retract and this one certainly didn't. You could sense that the gymnastics that would be involved were more than this particular portly chap could manage. At any rate, things stopped and what I suspect was clothes rearranging occurred. They then got up and went towards the rear of the plane. I couldn't resist. In a few minutes I too went towards the rear, verrrry slowly. Until I found what looked like quivering blankets covering most of the five seat stretch in the middle in the coach section.
The duo returned in due course. Before it got light and thus before the before landing snack, which they ate with gusto.
1539. Frankster - 6/22/2001 3:44:43 PM
Here's another: This happened on a flight to Baltimore from San Diego last year on a day where most of the east coast was experiencing heavy storms and diversions of flights to other airports were a plenty.
( We were at 35,000 feet at the time, and with the exception of a distant storm on the north horizon, the weather appeared clear outside at the time )
Pilot cuts into the flight movie: Good afternoon, passengers, this is your pilot, "John Airheart" ...
(lenghthy pause)
I don't know how to tell you this, but ...
(another "lenghthy" pause)
...we are being diverted to Columbus Ohio until this storm passes back east.
It's not our call. I got this directive from Atlanta. It seems the whole east coast is just socked in at this time...
What the fuck were those pauses all about ? I know I wasn't the only one on that flight who thought the next line out of his mouth after "but" would be something along the line of, we're experiencing mechanical problems at the moment and are going to have to descend quickly for an emergency landing at the nearest airport...
For any pilots or would be pilots out there: ( In his best Bensonimpression ) Don't do this to your passengers at 35,000 feet in the air. Spare us the page breaks and just let it out! Sheesh!
1540. thoughtful - 6/22/2001 4:34:26 PM
I'm not a fan when the pilots, as happened to us on a cross-country flight once, kept announcing the baseball scores all throughout the flight. I mean isn't that like driving while talking on a cell phone? Shouldn't someone be paying attention to where we are going?
1541. thoughtful - 6/22/2001 4:36:05 PM
Biggest fear in an airport...that I'll see someone I know named Jack and accidentally call out, "Hi Jack!" and get myself arrested.
1542. khaval alazman - 6/22/2001 11:21:59 PM
Here is my worst (non-turbulence) flight experience:
Until quite recently, I used to make the 30 hour trip between Israel and Australia quite often.
I became a dab-hand at discouraging dialogue between me and seat-mates, and had a fantastic system of taking sleeping pills and alcohol which made the trip fly by (arf).
*quick diversion*
Once, I underestimated the impact of the pills. On the trip to Israel, we were stopping briefly at Tashkent. About 20 hours into the flight, I woke up with a start, looked at my watch, and called the air-hostess over frantically. Why hadn't we landed in Tashkent yet? What was wrong? The hostess looked at me as though she were assessing how hard it would be to restrain me if necessary. We, of course, had landed - and taken off, and I just hadn't woken up.
Anyway - back on course: So, a few years ago, I decided to make a 3 day stop over in Amsterdam (my favourite city) on the way to Australia from Israel - to clear my head, so to speak, and to get used to speaking English again, in a place where the busses don't get blown up.
Well, I had a great time. I was by myself, after living in the hot-house (hot-flat, actually) of Uncle, Aunty, their five kids, my boyfriend, and whoever was also staying over (urban planners need to go to our flat to get an idea of what "population density" really means).
In Amsterdam, the joys of having my own room were only compunded by the kilos of hashish I managed to consume in those three days. Seriously, it must have been a world record.
cont....
1543. khaval alazman - 6/22/2001 11:22:54 PM
...cont.
The day I was due to fly out, I still had a heap of hash. I smoked as much of it as I could and left the rest for the cleaning person.
I was extremely mellow in the airport, and chatted quite cheerfully with the people waiting to board the plane.
Finally, it was time to board, and I'd requested the window seat for sleeping purposes. There came to sit next to me, two elderly people - husband and wife. In my stoner state, I became vaguely paranoid that I'd have to speak to them out of politeness (they were old folk - gotta be polite), so I tried to pretend to be asleep.
But stuff just kept grabbing my attention (OK, cute flying-Dutchman buttocks), and I couldn't fake for long.
The couple was silent at first. I was sitting next to the man, and his wife was on the aisle. But as the plane reached cruising altitude, the old guy turned to me, smiled, and said, "Where are you coming from?"
"Israel, via Amsterdam," I answered.
"Very nice," the old man answered. "We are coming from Germany. We went home for a visit"
"That's nice," I answered. In my little stoner pea-brain, I had already begun enjoying myself, replaying that Fawlty Towers episode, "The Germans - Don't Mention the War" and thinking in my best Yiddish accent, "Vhere vere *you* during de Var?", and I was trying desprerately not to giggle.
"Yes," said the old man, "We were also having a stopover in Amsterdam - we live in Australia now - and it was very nice to go back there."
Pause
"It's been nearly 50 years since I was last in Amsterdam."
cont....
1544. khaval alazman - 6/22/2001 11:23:19 PM
...cont.
Pause
"Er..." (that was me - not funny anymore) "What were you doing there 50 years ago?" Dunno what possessed me. I guess I just figured that if maybe you're sitting next to a Nazi for 25 hours, it's nice to know. 'Cause, like, he *could'a* been like, er, a Jew, hiding out in Holland.
"I was in the German army," the old guy said.
Right.
I was trapped.
Nazis!
Arrrrrrrrrgh!!!
I was too shit scared to dose myself with the sleeping pills, at that point. But there was the small problem of 25 hours to kill.
I spent the first three of those hours going back and forth to the toilets, climbing over their arthritic knees, making as much of a pest of myself as was humanly possible. I smiled sweetly and explained that I had a serious bladder problem.
That got old pretty quickly, though, and I realised that the whole thing would be over much much sooner if I were unconscious.
The weird-arse post-script to this story is that the fucker sitting next to me was just such a sweet old man. I couldn't fully hate him. He woke me up for the meal so I wouldn't miss it, he and his wife were always nice about me going to the toilet, he prattled on about his kids and his life in Oz... and... well, I guess we just didn't mention the war.
1545. JudithAtHome - 6/22/2001 11:27:41 PM
Khaval:
Great story...I always felt the same way when we lived in Germany and met such nice people there...sort of wondering what they did in the war and not really wanting to know.
1546. JudithAtHome - 6/22/2001 11:30:15 PM
By the way, when we were last in Amsterdam, it was a mess...graffitti everywhere and piles of dog poop, too, plus rusty bicycles chained to posts and railings where stoned people had left them, forgotten.
1547. khaval alazman - 6/22/2001 11:34:26 PM
Judith, wow! I never knew you lived in Germany. How long ago? Did you like it?
And when were you in Amsterdam? I was last there in 1999, and it was quite lovely. Mind you, I was coming from the grottier areas of Tel Aviv (think cow-heads on market floors, rivers of blood, etc.), so maybe my standars were a fair bit lower :)
1548. JudithAtHome - 6/22/2001 11:39:42 PM
I lived in Germany for 4 years, '85 to almost '89. We lived in a small village and loved every minute of it; we traveled extensively all over Europe and loved that, too. I also lived in Japan before that...which I loved, too. I had lived in Texas in one city and on one side of town all my life so when I got to move outside the country, I felt released from a cage.
Amsterdam was such a mess when I was there, twice. Once in '86 and again right before we left Europe. I got some wonderful boots there before we left but the first time, all I got was pneumonia.
1549. khaval alazman - 6/22/2001 11:42:29 PM
Poor Judith! I think things have really changed now in Amsterdam. I hope desperately to go there to study either next year ofr the year after.
I love being in a place where everyone is friendly, but I know no one, where there is limitless freedom, but people generally behave themselves, and in a cosmopolitan European city that nevertheless feels like a cosy town.
1550. JudithAtHome - 6/22/2001 11:48:02 PM
Oh I definitely agree...the people were wonderful and so relaxed. We had a great time and I bought some wonderful antique tins which line the cornice boards above the windows in my den today.
There were people in the bars who were so anxious to discuss things; I remember speaking to my husband about how distressing it was to see all the graffitti defacing the old buildings and a man sitting next to me explained he was a professor of art at the university and that they preferred to look on the graffitti as artistic expression...I said that would be fine except I saw nothing to rival Deigo Rivera in my walk around the city. He was delightful and much impressed I knew who that artist was...
1551. khaval alazman - 6/22/2001 11:52:22 PM
Heh heh :) But nowadays, you'd have to go a' Frieda Kahlo-ing to get that prof's attention :)
Oh Judith! If only you could see how grey and drab and diffuse Melbourne is. How uninspired and uninspiring! And it is easily the best city in AUstralia. I cannot wait to leave the isolation of this continent and be mere train trips away from a million countries, and only 5 hours away from my family in Israel. Mind you, I'll be 25 hours away from my family in Australia *sigh*
1552. JudithAtHome - 6/22/2001 11:59:15 PM
We have a friend from Melbourne...(do you know Candy?) I always ask people from Australia that; it's like foreigners asking long ago when they learned I was from Texas if I knew JR Ewing.
Anyhow, Candy ran away and joined the USO dancers during the Viet Nam war to get away from Australia and ended up living in Japan as a translator when we knew her. She said it was stifling in Melbourne but she ended up moving back due to illness; we've lost touch with her since but her letters from there after she first went back were so sad.
1553. khaval alazman - 6/23/2001 12:13:08 AM
I'm so sorry Judith. That really is very sad.
No, I do not know a Candy, but I certainly know her sentiments about Melbourne.
1554. JudithAtHome - 6/23/2001 12:32:39 AM
I'm off to bed...have a nice....hmmmm, day, I guess?
1555. JJBiener - 6/23/2001 1:22:33 AM
Judith - I knew a woman named Candy Johnson. That was funny enough by itself, but she married a man named Johnson. So she was Candy Johnson Johnson.
1556. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 1:17:32 PM
I was in Amsterdam in 98. We loved it, but I think I recall it being cleaner than what Judith described too, so maybe they did improve things. There were lots of bikes lying around, but I thought it was so neat that people would hop on their bikes, drop them outside wherever they were going, and hop back on.
We didn't get to go to the art museums, which was a real bummer, but it's because we went to the Anne Frank house, which was one of the most memorable parts of our trip, and had a tremendous effect on Mose.
If I ever get to go back to Europe, Amsterdam will be a required stop.
1557. JudithAtHome - 6/23/2001 2:04:46 PM
I'm glad to hear they cleaned the city...it was really distressing. I have a picture I took of a high, high wire fence with barbed wire around the top surrounding a church yard, to deter the "artists" and it STILL hadn't kept them out. In one park, a statue in a little gazebo affair had had buckets of different colored paint just dumped over it repeatedly.
1558. Jenerator - 6/23/2001 5:52:28 PM
I went to Holland. Everywhere I went, I'd say, "AmsterDAMN look out for the bike!"
1559. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 6:43:44 PM
They'll run over you, all right. But put a toe on the street and the cars stop.
1560. Jenerator - 6/23/2001 6:53:57 PM
Amsterdam wasn't that much different from the other seedy areas of cities I've been to. Except for the legal drugs, window prostitutes, and overwhelming stench of urine and pot. Other than that, it was a lovely city!
Actually, I didn't stay in the Red Light District that long. I wasn't on some sort of pot pilgrimmge, so it didn't interest me in that capacity.
My cousin flies there twice a month and so we met up and she showed me the prettier parts of town, thankfully.
1561. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 6:59:00 PM
Except for the legal drugs, window prostitutes, and overwhelming stench of urine and pot.
We went by the Red Light District on another street and looked down it, but we generally didn't see anything that wasn't very nice, normal city--no drugs in the open, or really anything of note along that line.
I really liked the area the Anne Frank house is in for just a city-street feel. Everything was very laid back, and I loved that.
1562. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 7:01:49 PM
We got to walk right through the Red Light District in Nice, though. I didn't enjoy that city at all. A different trip might give me an entirely different impression, but we missed the last tram and had to walk to our hotel, which was in a nice location, but to get there we had a three mile trek from the main street and we had two kids with us. Mose got to see prostitutes up close, with pink hair and stilletto heels. It had these country-come-to-town Arkies gaping, I must say.
1563. Jenerator - 6/23/2001 7:30:17 PM
My cousin has an apartment in Amsterdam. The first time there, she showed me the R.L.D. I had mistakenly thought that the entire city was like that area. Thank God it wasn't, it made my skin crawl.
Her place looks over the water and is on a "quiet" side of town.
I found the locals to be very polite, and I enjoyed that part of the city for the same reasons you did, near the Frank house. I found that exhibit to be quite moving, and was glad I had a chance to see it.
1564. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 7:38:28 PM
The untouched feel to it gives me chills just typing about it.
I thought that made-for-tv movie on Anne Frank was very good, and when Mose and I watched it, it was really a very odd feeling to watch them living day to day there in the rooms we had seen and the bookshelf hiding the door and the steep staircase--and then her father returning to the empty apartment and Anne's room, which looked just like what we saw. I didn't see the credits, but if they didn't film on location, they did an excellent job of recreating the apartment.
The thing that's nice about getting around in Amsterdam for monoglots is that the young people speak very American-sounding English, and it was easy for us to communicate.
1565. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 7:47:56 PM
I find Holland easily the most sympathetic and congenial country in North Europe. It helps that the Dutch are relatively color-blind, but besides that they're generally laid-back and sophisticated, plus they all speak excellent English.
I used to love Amsterdam, and rushed there every chance I got -even for overnighters. Besides the coffeeshops (there's a famous Goa coffeshop) it has seriously good restaurants even if you're not packing wads of cash, and there are great museums. Not that any of those were priorities back then - my late teenage and eartly twenties trips consisted of summer days of sunning on one of the less-trafficked canal-sides, sipping ridiculously cheap Grolsch and toking up on premium hydroponically-grown herb.
But as I tired of even this quietly debauched idling, i started to explore the reast of Holland and found it even more suited to my tastes. There are lovely little towns all over the postage-stamp-sized country. They all have coffeeshops too, by the way, but there is none of the frenzy and the harder edge of the scene in Amsterdam. And the residents of these towns are even nicer, and often very happy to practice their excellent English in thoughtful discussion. I'm fond of several of these towns, but leiden is my favorite. It's the first place I took my future fiancee and wife on an extended stayover trip and it was perfect. Charming, bookish, idyllic, with sophsiticated frills thanks to the world-class University.
All in all, Holland is the most civilized country in Europe, according to me. Perhaps the world.
1566. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 7:55:49 PM
We ate at a little hole-in-the-wall sandwich shop and the food was great.
I've said this a dozen times and it will probably never happen, but if I go to Europe again, I know exactly the places I'd like to stop and stay for a few days, and Amsterdam is definitely one of them. And what I saw of Holland as a whole was lovely. The hotel we stayed at was about an hour from Amsterdam and just beautiful, with a lovely little river behind it and farms.
1567. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 7:57:24 PM
Though the Leidesplein in Amsterdam has little else to recommend it (it's a long line of garish tourist restaurants largely indistinguishable from, say, the Leicester Square area or bits surrounding Times Square) - every traveller must make a trip there to eat at Bojo's.
It's a relatively cheap and funky pair of boxy rooms, and only one of scores of Indonesian reataurants, but it is the best (according to me). The staff is fantastically friendly and helpful, and the place just has that extremely comfortable, down-to-earth, vibe that makes you instantly recognize a haven. And the food is fantastic and copious. I've been known to eat there three times over a weekend, and I have never regretted a dollar or a minute spent there. It'd definitely very high on the exclusive Marjoribanks list of very favorite restaurants in the world.
1568. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 8:01:14 PM
I'm going to collect all this information, and when I'm able to travel to Europe again 30 years from now, make myself a Mote-based itenerary, complete with restaurants.
1569. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 8:02:57 PM
At an hour away from Amsterdam, Arky, you could pretty much have been in any part of the country including Leiden.
---
Bojo's has a website! Incomprehensible to me but somehow comforting ----Here.
---
Another favorite place of mine away from Amsterdam, by the way, is the town of Gouda. It has a great market in the impressive cobblestone square some weekdays, and the flowers and vegetables and trademark cheese are all pretty fantastic and worth the train journey.
1570. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 8:10:02 PM
That hotel is where my husband had one of his most memorable conversations with another tourist, from Korea. Bob couldn't speak Korean, of course, and the Korean man couldn't speak English, so they communicated how they got to Europe, plane stop to plane stop, and the cities they'd been to thus far. We were just really getting started on our tour, so Bob said, "America, London, Amsterdam." The Korean man gave his list, then said, "Hotel. Paree. Noooooo!!!"
1571. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 8:10:28 PM
Well, I'll be quite unmoved if I never again spend a minute in Northern Europe, arky. I'm quite uninterested now that I've seen what was interesting to me, and even lived there.
But I do have a soft spot for Holland, and for the Dutch themselves really. Especially Pak Gurubesar (and son) of course.
1572. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 8:15:15 PM
I need to go at least once more. We took one long trip that encompassed everything we thought we'd want to see through south Italy, if we never went again, and now I'd like to go back and spend time in the places I most enjoyed.
I'm hoping Mose will be much better travelled there than her parents. She's going to Spain and France this spring.
That's a really nice website, btw. The pictures of the restaurant are neat.
1573. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 8:15:51 PM
Cute brief on Gouda.
I'm not ashamed to admit that what stands out for me about the place above the truly lovely market, and the architecture, and everything else - is the fried fish I ate one day on the roadside. We Goans have our priorities.
1574. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 8:23:18 PM
Oh, I'm quite open to going to Spain, Italy and Portugal again. I'd move to any of those countries given a chance, actually.
Portugal being a distant third choice, but I've been warming to the place from afar this past year as I've been going to Newark's Ironbound at least once a month.
1575. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 8:27:33 PM
Good for Mose (and you) Arky. Make sure she watches out for those Italian boys! I have two lovely girl cousins who spent all their teenage years surrounded by them ,and it gave the entire family, even me, palipitations.
1576. marjoribanks - 6/23/2001 8:29:07 PM
Oops, didn't read closely. I suppose the Iberian yoot are just as bad -though I don't have the highest opinion of young Frenchmen.
1577. arkymalarky - 6/23/2001 8:56:26 PM
Hahaha. I'll give her a good lecture before she goes, knowing it'll do about as good as my other lectures. Luckily she's going with a large group.
1578. khaval alazman - 6/24/2001 11:56:56 AM
*Squawk!*
I think I might be going on holidays! Maybe even by Thursday! To the far north of Australia! For at least five days!
*pant pant*
See, outside of the urban areas, one of the most beautiful areas on God's earth (how I believe Paradise will look) is the far north of Oz (east coast).
Of course, anything could go wrong between now and Thursday and this whole shebang might fall through... but still! I have what to dream about tonight. *sigh*
1579. JudithAtHome - 6/24/2001 12:14:52 PM
We went to an estate sale yesterday out in the country on the lake...the drive was gorgeous, down twisty roads overgrown with trees on both sides forming cool green tunnels. Many acres had been groomed like German forests, with the undergrowth all removed and the trees spaced out with mossy areas underneath...small flowers scattered here and there, wood voilets, I think.
It was so totally unlike Texas! "Sylvan beauty" is not a phrase one automatically thinks of when describing a site in this or almost any part of Texas.
1580. Jenerator - 6/24/2001 1:41:43 PM
Not true Judith. I drive down every street in *Dallas* and think "Sylvan beauty."
I'm just kiddin'!;-)
1581. dusty - 6/24/2001 1:42:53 PM
thoughtful Message # 1541
You reminded me of a running joke in my family.
My fathers boss was named Jack, and he had to pick him up from the airport on occasion. Every time, I would warn my father to be careful not to yell out when he saw him.
1582. JudithAtHome - 6/24/2001 1:44:30 PM
Jen:
Yes, but these roads were pothole free and had no sink holes in them!
1583. Jenerator - 6/24/2001 1:51:48 PM
NOW you're talking!
My mother, a friend, and I went to an estate sale in the Park Ln. area of Dallas a few years back. The house was on a 5 acre plot of land (very desirable) with tons of wysteria and tulips blooming. Anyway, as we drove down the winding driveway, we came upon a bleak and unimpressive single story house. A few people were coming out of it with empty arms. So, we assumed that we had missed the good-stuff.
Upon entering the front living room, it became perfectly clear as to why no one was buying anything. The person who had lived there had been a mortician by trade (!!!) and for the last several years had taken care of someone in the home.
Had I needed some macabre medical supplies, I would have been in luck. (stretchers, IV's, enbalming quits)
The house was paneled, dark, and stale smelling. Each room was creepier than the next, and it was truly a bizarre experience!
That land has since been turned into premium condos.
1584. Jenerator - 6/24/2001 1:52:59 PM
quits should be kits.
1585. JudithAtHome - 6/24/2001 2:00:07 PM
My son found some bizarre medical instruments that looked like they'd been used in the movie Dead Ringers ...I put them in my booth at the mall and they all sold quick, most went to this Goth chick with purple and blue hair and a safety pin through her nostril.
She gave the little old ladies who work there quite a lot to talk about!
1586. Jenerator - 6/24/2001 2:06:15 PM
Judith,
This person even had animals floating in liquid in medical jars.
I wonder if your son got a hold of the same stuff. There were TONS of instruments...some with teeth.
1587. dusty - 6/24/2001 2:25:24 PM
Speaking of Scotland, I just decided to go (Glasgow) in October. Any advice?
1588. JudithAtHome - 6/24/2001 2:37:05 PM
Yeah...take me along!
Seriously, pack lightweight wool items so you can dress warmly in layers. And have a great time!
1589. khaval alazman - 6/24/2001 2:58:06 PM
WHat's in Scotland, Dusty?
1590. dusty - 6/24/2001 5:31:45 PM
I've been asked to give a speech. I was going to go to India, but I changed my mind.
1591. arkymalarky - 6/24/2001 5:38:23 PM
Wow, what an honor. Congratulations.
1592. Jenerator - 6/24/2001 5:41:08 PM
Dusty,
Will you come to Dallas and give a speech?
There. I asked.
1593. dusty - 6/24/2001 5:52:30 PM
It's not that big a deal. I expect a dozen of us from the US will be invited over.
Although I was pleased that our London office has decided to organize some marketing efforts around it, so I will be stopping in London first.
Jenerator, I fear you would be bored to tears by my discussion of how Shapley values and Tail Conditional Expectations can be used to allocate capital to line of business.
1594. Jenerator - 6/24/2001 6:10:50 PM
Dusty,
Not an area of personal expertise for me, but I think it would be great to sit through one of your speeches!
Are you hoping to have some sort of economic development partnerships blossum with the persons and countries you speak to?
1595. dusty - 6/24/2001 8:49:50 PM
Jenerator
Yes.
We have an investment center in London, and we would like to manage the assets of UK insurance entities. For example, we are talking about developing asset strategies that would make sense for Lloyd's syndicates. My presentation is intended, in part to convince people that we know how to build financial models of insurance companies.
1596. Wombat - 6/25/2001 2:08:30 PM
Dusty:
Take a raincoat and an umbrella.
1597. janjon - 6/25/2001 5:36:24 PM
not necessarily. if you are lucky, Scotland in September and October can be sunny and warm, if a bit crisp. definitely cool at night.
is this your first trip to Scotland? will you have time to rent a car and just scoot around? the moors north and between Glasgow and Edinburgh are quite beautifully stark.
1598. dusty - 6/25/2001 7:45:55 PM
janjon
Yes, first trip.
I may have a free day; conference starts on Wdnesday, we tentatively planned to meet in London on Monday, so I may have Tuesday free.
I've heard good things about Edinburgh, so may head over there.
1599. Jenerator - 6/26/2001 6:10:14 PM
Here's what I want, so if any of you have any expertise in this area, let me know.
I want to go away for a minimum of four days to a spa.
I want massages, facials, a pedicure, a manicure, mud, seltzer, steam, sauna, a beautiful view and decent food. (It doesn't have to be low-fat.)
Ideally I'd like to stay within Texas or a neighboring state.
I'd be willing to travel if the price is right, but have no desire to pay outrageously for just a name. (I.e. Jose Eber isn't the best hairstylist in the world even though he has a famous reputation - -and 250$ for a haircut is a waste). I have two friends that are willing to go, and so far the only place we've found that offers what we need and sounds appealing is a spa in Iceland.
Recommendations?
I don't want to spend more than @ 200$ a day.
1600. JudithAtHome - 6/26/2001 6:20:39 PM
What about the Green Door? Or is that too close?
1601. JudithAtHome - 6/26/2001 6:24:06 PM
Hmmmmm...I came up with one in St.Louis; I thought it was in Dallas. Anyhow, you could see JJ if you went to StLouis!
1602. JJBiener - 6/26/2001 6:46:59 PM
Jen - I would love to meet you. If you time it right you can hear the band and everything.
1603. Jenerator - 6/27/2001 10:25:28 PM
JJ,
That WOULD be awesome!
I need to seriously schedule when we can go, all I know is that I'm ready now.
Judith,
My former boss manages the Green Door. It'd be relaxing except for her.;-)
I need a vacation.
ScottLoar,
You strike me as the spa type, any recommendations?
1604. ScottLoar - 6/27/2001 10:30:34 PM
Dear Child of Mine;
Never been to a spa (or one that could legally be called a "spa") and wouldn't know what to do in one were I in one.
1605. Jenerator - 6/27/2001 10:31:52 PM
Come with me then and we' ll get massages and be dipped in mud.
1606. ScottLoar - 6/27/2001 10:35:28 PM
Haven't played in mud since I was a boy but wallowed in it many a time since then.
1607. Jenerator - 6/27/2001 10:52:09 PM
Who knows where the desire is coming from, but the thought of sitting in a fine grain Borghese mud bath sounds very good to me.
Then I'd gladly settle for a warm seltzer shower followed by a hot oil massage.
1608. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 5:11:02 AM
Well, greetings everone from the far north of Australia. I cannot begin to describe how beautiful this place is, and quite frankly, I can't be bothered.
Soon, I will have to go on a hunting/gathering expedition to find food. It is dark here, now, but apparently quite safe.
It's like a different country. Can't drink the water and there are snakes... apparently.
Toodles.
1609. PelleNilsson - 6/28/2001 5:46:04 AM
And where will that expedition take you? The nearest pub?
1610. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 6:54:32 AM
Yeah, Khaval in the wilds of Cairns, stumbling in slippers, threatened at every step by cuts from pop-tops.
1611. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 8:31:04 AM
What the fuck are pop-tops?
Pelle, how did you guess? :)
Scott, I am a leetle further north than Cairns :)
Soon, I'll be hopping on a horse and doing Daintree tours out of a misplaced sense of obligation.
But first, I have important lazing by the pool and mai-tai-sippery on the agenda.
So far, no cute boyos. Small gene-pool as far as I can tell. And they're all pasty-arsed Anglos.
Now, it's 10:30pm, and I don't have the wherewithal to go out on the town, looking for trouble. I'm well fed and not feeling particularly bloshie.
I need 100ccs of moxie, STAT!
1612. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 8:32:07 AM
And slippers? Who wears slippers?! You really are a curmudgeonly old far, Scott :)
1613. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 8:35:58 AM
Pop-tops disappeared about 20 years ago, so of course Khaval knows nothing of them...
1614. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 8:52:34 AM
Oof! Ya'Allah! Irving! Nu, don't make those silly "before her time" comments and then *not* tell me what a fucking pop-top is! :) Is it a convertible? If so, then Scott's post makes no sense.
To get in the mood, I ate a tropical pizza tonight *arf*
1615. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 8:55:32 AM
Pop-tops were the little pull-off metal items on beverage cans, before the non-removeable variety were invented.
1616. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 8:56:16 AM
Tropical pizza? The mind reels...
1617. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 9:03:49 AM
Oooh. Irv! I remember those! They still had them when I was little. We used them as engagement rings in kiddie nuptuals.
Tropical pizza is wayyyy the least disgusting pizza on that menue. They had smoked salmon, egg, and other wrong and repulsive toppings a plenty. This just had smoked ham, and pineapple. Pretty pedestrian AND I didn't have to puke afterwards.
1618. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 9:37:01 AM
Khaval:
Indeed, that sounds like by far the best choice available... though authorities from my religion and yours might disagree.
1619. DanDillon - 6/28/2001 9:42:46 AM
Religion has no other authority than God.
HA! I just felt like saying that.
To see if Jen would dance the dance of the seven veils for me.
1620. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 9:46:51 AM
"Slippers". I was being considerate, I intended shower slippers; you know, the cheap plastic-rubbery ones for $1.99. Or, perhaps Khaval favours "jellies"?
1621. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 9:50:48 AM
flip-flops, thongs, or Japanese sandals...
1622. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2001 9:52:26 AM
...geta. With split-toed tabi.
1623. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 9:53:57 AM
Dan, you are not the Messiah! You are a very naughty boy! (forgive me father, for I have sinned: the overuse of Monty Python references induces thy wrath and vengence in the form of heart-burn, surely).
Irvoosh, does this mean you are a convert to Islam or that you are Jewish?
My two cents: there is something quite glorious about the brand of Islam particular to the Indonesian archipelago, influenced as it was by sufism and commerce, as opposed to having arrived via conquest.
And Irv, this may be a leetle poisonal, but if you *did* convert to Islam, did you require certain, er, ammendments to your gentlemanhood?
Back to more pizzine matters: for sure! I could have been adventurous, but when it comes to gastronomic decisions (especially after having subsisted on airline fodder for a whole day), brave new worlds are far less tempting than the certainty of satisfaction along well trodden paths!
Now, I am going to climb into the embarrassingly large bed, and grab some shuteye. Goodnight dear Moties.
1624. khaval alazman - 6/28/2001 9:58:23 AM
Akh! Before I turn in, I must address this gross misrepresentation of my footwear.
Jelly is for munching or preventing conception! It is *not* for shodding!
In everyday life, I wear shoes as little as possible. In summer, I do not wear them at all, unless it is too hot to walk on the road.
This is not out of some sense of hippihood. I simply do not like shoes or clothes if I don't have to wear them. They are constricting.
And there are no public showers which I shall be using here in which I might be in danger of contracting papiloma virus.
So shoes really are superfluous.
1625. Wombat - 6/28/2001 9:58:25 AM
Anyone who would put pineapple on a pizza should be taken out and shot.
The Brits had pop-tops in the 1980s, well after they had been replaced in the US. Some pals of mine threw a Super Bowl party, and in keeping with the the spirit of things, bought Budweisers instead of their usual beer. They were completely flummoxed when it came to opening the cans. The little tabs broke off, leaving a still-unopened beer. They were resorting to can openers before I showed them how to open them properly.
1626. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2001 10:00:50 AM
Anyone who would put pineapple on a pizza should be taken out and shot.
I agree wholeheartedly...might as well put coconut and canned cherries on it. Blechk!
1627. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 10:02:29 AM
Khaval:
I converted to Islam 20 years ago. But fortunately, I had had the amendment done at a very early age, so I didn't have to suffer that...
I don't think I could live in an Islamic society anywhere else...
1628. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 10:03:46 AM
I like pineapple on a pizza...
1629. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2001 10:05:55 AM
You can have all of mine, Irv.
1630. Wombat - 6/28/2001 10:07:48 AM
Irv:
No doubt due to your years in the tropics.
1631. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 10:08:16 AM
Pineapple on pizza is a stretch for most Americans but adding to that shrimp and calling it Hawaiian pizza is only for Asian stomachs.
1632. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2001 10:09:34 AM
Keoni is Hawaiian and he gags at the thought of pineapple on pizza...to him, pineapple is dessert.
Hmmmmmm....I like this "dessert pizza" idea, suddenly. Chocolate pizza.
1633. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/28/2001 10:13:56 AM
I like pineapple as part of a meal... curried pineapple especially.
1634. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 10:16:50 AM
There is a soup made of salted, preserved pineapple which is most excellent as is pineapple shrimp but not, please, larded together on pizza.
1635. Wombat - 6/28/2001 10:21:26 AM
I munch on dried pineapple at work for my mid-afternoon snack.
1636. Jenerator - 6/28/2001 11:28:36 AM
Dan,
I owe you a dance. The list is getting long, I had better pay up!
Khaval,
Please do not post while on vacation. Get out there and enjoy yourself! We will all be waiting for your report when you get back.
Staying online while someplace tropical is an honor/habit reserved for a different Motie who's on 20 hours a day.
Also, take pictures.
Have fun!
1637. DanDillon - 6/28/2001 12:40:00 PM
Jen,
Empty promises, every one of 'em.
I'll believe when I see.
quelquechz@hotmail.com
1638. Frankster - 6/28/2001 4:28:34 PM
Keoni is Hawaiian and he gags at the thought of pineapple on pizza...to him, pineapple is dessert.
Judith - The more you reveal about Keoni, the more I realize that we probably are soulmates. I have never understood how anyone -- sorry, Irv -- could like pineapple on a pizza. Pepporoni yes, but pineapple ? Yeech!
1639. marjoribanks - 6/28/2001 4:29:36 PM
I'm going to Andalucia.
Any pointers, tips, reading recommendations?
1640. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 4:30:53 PM
My sister lived there for two years.
Unfortunately, I have no contact with my sister.
1641. marjoribanks - 6/28/2001 4:42:54 PM
Umm, okay Loar.
Reading material is key, though? Ever read anything particularly good on Moorish Spain?
1642. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 5:16:32 PM
The only thing I ever read particularly good on Moorish Spain was the history of the Alhambra. I suspect the Alhambra, and legions of pure-blooded Catholic Spaniards who are really of some Moorish blood, is the only legacy of the Moors in Spain.
Oh yes. In high school Spanish we had to read parts from El Poema de Mio Cid, none of which I can accurately recall.
1643. janjon - 6/28/2001 5:25:05 PM
perhaps your sister took the same course and you can use marj's request as a pretext for getting in touch to get her general thoughts about Andalucia and the Poema.
killing the proverbial two birds with one shot, so to speak.
1644. ScottLoar - 6/28/2001 5:36:21 PM
My sister took French. We have very little in commmon.
1645. janjon - 6/28/2001 5:41:29 PM
I gathered that from your 1640.
1646. DanDillon - 6/28/2001 5:43:06 PM
marj,
I spent many great moments in Andalusia when I needed a shot of the occidental. (I hopped the ferry from Tangiers a few times landing in Algeciras -- like most port cities, not worth visiting.)
Anyway, This book might interest you.
Or perhaps this one.
Then again, there's this one, too.
And for more Arab-related info, this one.
And if you do decide to cross the straits, I strongly recommend you read this.
1647. DanDillon - 6/28/2001 5:47:23 PM
Oh, and Gibraltar is lots of fun as well. But muy caro.
1648. Jenerator - 6/28/2001 7:22:18 PM
Dan,
Mi fecha, someday I will learn how to create a webpage for yours truly.
We have a MAC here (which I hate) and computers are not my forte.
1649. khaval alazman - 6/29/2001 2:38:28 PM
Jen: Please do not post while on vacation. Get out there and enjoy yourself! We will all be waiting for your report when you get back.
Staying online while someplace tropical is an honor/habit reserved for a different Motie who's on 20 hours a day.
Jen, I appreciate your concern, but it seems you misunderstand my situation.
I could not care less about the habits of some other motie and what he/she chooses to do on his/her tropical holiday.
As far as I'm concerned, a holiday serves one purpose: pleasure.
Now, should posting at a particular point during the holiday provide me with pleasure, I see no reason to deprive myself, simply so that I might avoid the opprobrium of those for whom such behaviour is in direct contravention of some arcane holiday ettiquette.
Simply: this is not my problem.
After 10:30pm, I do not find it prudent to be gallivanting still. It is not as if I forsake pool time or horseriding time during the day in order to read you words of wisdom.
So... Come 10:30pm, I can watch TV in my room, read, learn Farsi, or surf the net. I am lucky enough to own a darling lap-top, and I see no reason not to enjoy it up here as I do elsewhere.
Simply to twiddle my thumbs in front of some inane television show because someone tells me that I shouldn't use the net while on holidays strikes me as vaguely ridiculous.
Jen, I am sure you were only trying to be helpful, but there are certain breeds of advice that really piss me off. Etiquette advice or advice on supposedly "healthy" activity which is based on nothing but assumption tend to fall into the piss-me-off category.
1650. PelleNilsson - 6/29/2001 2:48:00 PM
khaval
Jen has this thing about internet addiction. I think her paper for majors dealt with that subject.
How are you doing up there? What depraved activites are cloaked under the "gallivanting" euphemism?
1651. JudithAtHome - 6/29/2001 2:54:52 PM
Khaval:
Jen was only trying to be friendly. Lighten up...you're right; you should do what you wish on holiday.
1652. khaval alazman - 6/29/2001 2:56:54 PM
Hey there, Pelle! :)
How're you doing?
"Gallivanting" is unfortunately no euphamism, aty the moment. There is a depressing lack of delectable gentlemen around these parts. Can you believe, I have been here more than 24 hours and not even had a glss of wine yet?!! My! I am getting old!
But I *have* begun booking all sorts of ridiculously exciting horseriding tours and activities. Also, I want to book a trip on a boat called Shao Lin, which is a refitted Junk and travells out to surrounding islands. *Merf!*
I am so excited! So much swimming in azure waters to be done!!! Also, they have this thing where you sit in a net hanging off the boat and get schlepped along in the water. It looks like a lot of fun.
The beaches here are also glorious, but I am deatly scared of the stingers.
1653. khaval alazman - 6/29/2001 2:58:40 PM
Judith, I know Jen was only trying to be friendly.
I'm sorry if the tenor of my post was less than civil, but, like I said, certain forms of advice really get my back up.
1654. JudithAtHome - 6/29/2001 2:59:38 PM
If you get stung, grab some vinegar and pour it on...if you get "sea urchined" like getting urchin spines in your foot, have someone pee on the wound. I'm serious...
1655. PelleNilsson - 6/29/2001 3:01:30 PM
Your spelling seems to contradict your statement about the wine.
What are stingers? Those gelatinous bulbs with threads that burn?
1656. khaval alazman - 6/29/2001 3:04:13 PM
*LOL*! Judith, yeah, I heard of the peeing trick before. Good God! I can just imagine it... "Hello, there handsome. How's abouts you flop out your doodle and spray me with a bit of your fire water." Oh Judith! The thought is just delicious!
And yeah, vinegar. I've never been stung before, but it just ruins the whole swimming experience if I'm constantly shitting myself about the jellies. Getting stung itself is not really the probklem: it's more my own fear of it.
1657. khaval alazman - 6/29/2001 3:06:52 PM
Pelle, *LOL*! What spelling? Typography or spelling? If it's bad typography, then it's par for the course :)
And yeah. Those things you described are stingers.
I so very deeply hate water beasties. They fuck me up. I was considering taking a cruise to the Great Barrier Reef on a glass bottomed boat and snorkelling in order to confront this phobia... but I'm too scared. :)
BTW, ask me what I'm doing up at 5:15am.
1658. JudithAtHome - 6/29/2001 3:08:26 PM
I know what you mean...the fear can be daunting. Of course, the blisters across ones chest when the fear is realized can be pretty nasty, too...
1659. khaval alazman - 6/29/2001 3:18:51 PM
Judith, heh heh... yup. It's not a particularly relaxing thought.
However, on that note, it really is time for me to get some sleep.
Goodnight dear Moties.
1660. marjoribanks - 6/29/2001 4:19:25 PM
dandi,
Thanks muchly. Those look extremely promising. There is one book pseuder mentioned years ago I'm waiting on, but your suggestions are excellent.
Khaval,
I hate you for being so close to azure waters and premium snorkelling/diving. The only silver lining is that you're obviously too wimpy to take properly advantage of this stellar situation.
1661. DanDillon - 6/29/2001 5:09:32 PM
T.M.L.M.T.B.G.B.
At the corner of Ashland and Foster, luck married chance and fortune was born. Above the Nelson Funeral Home, there is a space where your appetite for the desultory and your craving for the dramatic can be satiated every weekend. And the spirit can do a little celebrating. As Second City, that bastion of sublime irreverence and magnet of vulgar tourism, acknowledges its 40th anniversary this week, little else is there to say. Besides, Second City is located at North and Wells.
The Neo-Futurarium, here at Ashland and Foster, feeds the soul. It is the home of the adolescent revue "Too Much Light Makes The Baby Go Blind." The soundest cultural parallel I am able to draw to this show would have to be a primeval ritual aboriginal boogie under the fiery firmament around a blazing bonfire. It holds one's senses hostage, compelling the viewer to gawk, weep, drool, flutter, and howl, no matter how much the theatrical purist. It is a show that treats you to thirty plays in sixty minutes. It truly makes your head spin.
That's the goal, anyway. Hung from a clothesline strung above the stage (I'm generous in calling it one) are thirty pieces of paper, numbered sequentially. (About the only orderly thing in the place.) The paper menu you were given upon entering has on it the titles of the thirty plays that the players will attempt to play. The introductions made - piercing, no, crashing through the fourth wall as they happen - the screaming begins. The audience lets roar the numbers they want to see performed, and the loudest voice, I suppose, is granted its wish. The play lasts anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. Curtain. Scream again. The timer is running, you see, and the goal is thirty plays in sixty minutes.
[cont.]
1662. DanDillon - 6/29/2001 5:10:09 PM
But let me go back. We're in a holding pen of sorts, not so much a lobby as an antechamber, all 161 of us, clutching our color-coded tickets that permit us entry into the performance space. Green tickets first, then yellow, and finally blue. Somebody climbs onto a small proscenium. We are given instructions to be nice, advance slowly, and respect the people around us, especially the ticket takers. After many too many minutes (I hold yellow), I make my way up to the fellow with the die. He hands it to me. I roll it. Three. I pay $7. The roll of the die determines how much it's going to cost me to see tonight's performance. You add four to whatever number you roll, and then you pay. Walk forward and turn the corner. Sitting in an old school chair is a sweet looking flaxen-haired soon-to-be performer with a fat pen in her hand and a stack of sticky name tags in front of her. She asks you your name, and you wonder how in the hell she can hear you with those headphones blaring like that. (You'd be able to identify the music if it weren't so distorted.) Despite your better senses you tell her, and she proceeds to write "Homer" or "Copper Penny" or "Kibbles" or "Sweat Shop" or "Fulham" or "Cave Man" or "Suzy Q" or "Random," completely ignoring what you said, stripping you of your average, everyday identity right there on the spot. (You could try yelling it into her ear over the music - Violent Femmes? - but to no avail. You are "Fire Plug.") The name tags go on, and we go in. Showtime.
[cont.]
1663. DanDillon - 6/29/2001 5:10:27 PM
If the show has sold out, and it most always does, one of the performers hops on the phone (everything here is done with great energy) and calls the local pizza joint. Ringing is heard over the sound system. Someone picks up on the other end. "Hello?" "Hi, Pam, this is Diana over at 'Too Much Light.' How're you tonight?" "Oh, I'm great, Diana. What can we do for you?" "When we sell out, we order out!" everyone shouts, as if they've all been here in these exact same seats dozens of times before. "That's right," says Diana. "Let's see," she goes on. "We must have about 160 folks here tonight. We should probably get a large." Laughter. The show has already started. The timer hasn't been set yet, but the theatrics are well under way.
The plays we see are all written by the performers themselves, and they add new ones each week. How many they add depends on the roll of the die at the end of the night. So the menu that you've been intermittently referring to and screaming at changes all the time. You decide to come back in a few weeks for another roll of the die, another name tag, another few tears, and several more morsels of food for thought.
This is experimental theater at its richest, most rewarding. As you leave the space there above the Nelson Funeral Home, you wonder how the middle-aged Second City could ever compete with the sprightly, invigorating, life-affirming "Too Much Light Makes The Baby Go Blind."
1664. Jenerator - 6/29/2001 5:59:50 PM
Khaval,
OF COURSE you may do as you wish. I was just "pushing" you a little to make sure you're out there enjoying yourself and not glued to your lap top. As Pelle has rightly pointed out, my masters thesis was on Internet addiction, and there are those in here, who even when on vacation, post upwards of 12-18 hours a day. When faced with substandard evening television or playing in here, I completely understand.
Anyway, I was being friendly. I hope you're having a good time.
1665. DanDillon - 6/29/2001 6:02:58 PM
My I assume correctly, then, that we've simply been made case studies, little lab rats, for your academic endeavors, hmmm?
1666. Jenerator - 6/29/2001 6:08:09 PM
You WILL be my pet someday Dan.
Oh yes, you will.
1667. JudithAtHome - 6/29/2001 6:15:03 PM
Jen...you got the SOS post; Dan should quake in fear! (or anticipation, whichever...)
1668. Jenerator - 6/29/2001 6:16:57 PM
I'd like to see Dan quake.
1669. ScottLoar - 6/29/2001 6:25:05 PM
DanDillon, I could practically walk to that theatre from my house. In fact, I've made up my mind to go.
1670. DanDillon - 6/29/2001 8:50:46 PM
You'll enjoy it, ScottLoar. So long as you don't mind swimming in a sea of twenty-somethings at an advanced hour of the evening.
1671. DanDillon - 6/29/2001 8:51:49 PM
Jen,
What's your fancy? Shall I woof or meow?
1672. ScottLoar - 6/29/2001 11:12:14 PM
Swimming in a sea of twenty-somethings at an advanced hour of the evening.
Sounds like Bangkok.
1673. CalGal - 6/29/2001 11:51:36 PM
Staying online while someplace tropical is an honor/habit reserved for a different Motie who's on 20 hours a day.
Actually, if anyone were to stay on 20 hours a day while in Hawaii, it wouldn't be any of your business to judge them or their vacation habits. Any more than it would be someone's business to judge you for marrying a guy with a mentally ill granny that he expects you to look after constantly.
As it happens, though, you've got your facts wrong. I realize you have a limited capacity for imagining the lives of others, but it's really best not to lie about them.
GJ, if you feel this post is too nasty, I would point out that hers was entirely unnecessary and unprovoked and, in a perfect world, should be moved as well.
1674. CalGal - 6/29/2001 11:54:09 PM
Whoops. I thought this was GJ's thread. It's JJ's. Still, the principle is the same.
But I hadn't read Khaval's response (1649) before I posted. What She Said. You go, girl.
1675. Jenerator - 6/29/2001 11:56:05 PM
What are you talking about CalGal? Now why would you think I was talking about you?
Dan,
Whatever comes naturaly.
1676. CalGal - 6/30/2001 12:12:28 AM
Because you've said the same thing about me on several other occasions, actually directing them towards me.
Still, it should be easy for you to establish reasonable doubt, Jen: just list the other Mote folk who have been to a tropical island recently, and who you feel spent all their time posting.
1677. msgreer - 6/30/2001 2:55:17 AM
Jenerator
Can I join your party?
1678. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 4:25:21 AM
For the record, I've often been known to spend a great deal of my time posting from a tropical isle.
1679. khaval alazman - 6/30/2001 9:40:21 AM
Irving, you gloating bastard! :)
Me, I have until Thursday to gloat. Boy is this place magic.
Tomorrow, I will be getting on a horse for the first time in ages, and will ride along pristine (until the horses get to them, anyway) beaches.
On Tuesday, I will sail on the Shao Lin, and watch the sun set over the ocean as I much on prawns, after having been schlepped along in the sea in a net connected to the boat.
If the horsey place is any good, I'll try to ride every day 'till I leave. If it's crap, there's another place I can try out. They're not as much fun (or as romantic) as riding donkeys and camels in the desert, but by God, I'll take it! It's a bloody hassle trying to ride in Melbourne.
Also, I have had my big drinking day for the holiday. To demonstrate the miserable creature I am, here is a timetable of my drinks:
4:00pm Strawberry daquiry by the pool.
9:30pm glass of wine with dinner.
11:30pm 3/4 of a glass of wine at a bar.
ANd now, I don't feel so hot. Shit! I should just accept that I'm Jewish and not bother with the alcohol at all.
***
Jen, apologies for snapping at you earlier. Your post just gave mne a nasty flashback of my mother's lectures :)
***
Marji, suffer in your jocks, boyo! Bugger the sea beasties and dumb-arse coral! I *still* get to sail on azure waters, visit untouched islands and sandy lagoons and eat more prawns than is seemly.
All I have to say to you is this:
ner ner ni ner ner.
Oh... and also, send you a big prawn-juiced kiss!
1680. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 9:48:56 AM
Khaval:
I hope you can share some pics of your trip... it sounds lovely.
I've always enjoyed posting to the Mote while traveling... I think I've posted from about eight countries (Australia included) over the years.
1681. khaval alazman - 6/30/2001 9:53:53 AM
Wow, Irv! That is very very cool! WHere in Oz were you?
ANd I know this will sound like a great big sacrelige, but I have not brought a camera up. I have rolls and rolls of film of this place from the last time I was here (1990). I just couldn't see the point... except to lose my camera, and maybe photograph my hotel :)
Shit! I remind myself of my darlingest late-grandfather sometimes. That is *bingo* his logic. :)
1682. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 10:07:21 AM
Khaval:
Film? You still use film??? I haven't bought a roll of film in a few years... since I discovered the wonders of digital photography.
I've only been to WA, which is a short hop from here (and in the same time zone). I had planned to go there every six months, but haven't been back in two years. But I enjoyed exploring the wide open unpopulated spaces... quite a change from what I'm used to. And the people were amazed that anyone would go there on holiday from Bali... most of the traffic is in the other direction.
1683. khaval alazman - 6/30/2001 10:41:42 AM
Irv, WA is such a bizarre place. It really is the closest thing we (humans) have to an approximation of the Martian surface. Then there's Perth, our most isolated city. I know I don't need to tell you that our population's concentrated in the south-east. WA is just so... isolated and desolate. A place like Marble Bar just boggles my mind.
Apart from Perth (and Freemantle), I've been to Broome, the pearling town in the extreme North West of WA. It was magnificent: my favourite holiday destination in Oz. Only problem is that it's so impossible and expensive to get to. At the moment, going far north is enough of a challenge even if it's just up the east coast.
*sigh* OK: here's my definition of ultimate slobbish, debauched decadence. I ate a late night snack on my bed of sloppy camembert and crackers. Just looked at at my bed and realised I had schmeared a bit of camembert on the sheets. Gross; but somehow delightful in a perverse way.
1684. ScottLoar - 6/30/2001 11:27:12 AM
Fremantle is really quite alright, not big, but it has its interesting spots, like a good maritime museum which features a large city portal orginally destined for Batavia, a nice sprawling hotel, several bars worth visiting, and all in all good for three days' visit. Perth I find not too interesting, about a day's worth.
What makes WA particularly bizzare is their separatist movement.
1685. ScottLoar - 6/30/2001 11:38:12 AM
That, and the Great Woggle which the aborigines declared had rested in downtown Perth and so was religious ground open to claims for restitution.
1686. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 11:40:27 AM
I like the feel in WA... and enjoy both Perth and Fremantle. I've been along the coast for about 100 km in each direction... which is basically still the Perth area, so I can't say I've really seen much of WA. I know I'll be back before long, since it's cheap to visit and close. I don't know about the rest of the country... that's more of a major undertaking... and when I have money, I tend to head north. The isolation in WA is mind-boggling.
1687. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 11:51:40 AM
My kids are leaving tomorrow for a three-week trip to the USA... and we are in the middle of packing. Packing for them is a fight... they want to bring everything, and I prefer to travel lightly. My daughter had about 30 outfits for her 21-day stay, which, through negotiation and tears, we managed to pare down to 14... still twice what I would recommend. Now that she's done, the hard part comes: my son, who is much less flexible, and much less logical too.
Meanwhile, I am also leaving tomorrow on a one-week trip to 5 cities. It took me 5 minutes to pack my carry-on, which is all I take (plus my laptop).
1688. msgreer - 6/30/2001 12:32:54 PM
Irv
You working with a teenage girl. Why am I not surprised she is having difficulty taking a mere 14 outfits. Good luck with your son.
1689. msgreer - 6/30/2001 12:33:18 PM
you=you're
1690. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 12:41:31 PM
Believe it or not, my son has finally figured it out. After almost 16 years of travelling the world (at times by himself), he has finally learned what to pack... his choices were spot on (I even had to add some more socks and underwear). So now it will just be a case of teaching my daugther proper packing... a formidable task. But with her other abilities, and general good sense, I'm sure she'll learn... perhaps by the time she's my age.
1691. ScottLoar - 6/30/2001 12:42:40 PM
I say let'em pack what they want (well, almost everything they want); they'll have to carry it and also gives much, much less excuse to buy more.
My 16 year-old daughter soon goes to U of Cal at Berkeley for six weeks of summer school and I daresay she hasn't given a thought to what she'll bring but when she does I'm sure it will be outlandishly necessary to her. That and the credit card.
1692. arkymalarky - 6/30/2001 12:49:05 PM
I think mine and Scott's daughters are close to the same age, and Mose is the same way. I don't even look in her suitcase any more, as long as she's the one who has to lug it and deal with it.
1693. arkymalarky - 6/30/2001 12:49:57 PM
Duh. They are the same age, as I see from the post right above mine.
1694. ScottLoar - 6/30/2001 12:51:56 PM
I've seen my daughter evolve from Catholic primary schoolgirl uniform to B-17 waistgunner in upturned cap and bomber jacket to modified hip-hop queen to... well, I haven't looked today.
1695. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 1:00:15 PM
I see we have a few 16-year-olds around.
My kids wear school uniforms at school, which seems to make them vie for the most outrageous garb on weekends. Currently favored by my daughter: backless tops, mini skirts, really high heels, and a baseball cap. My son: baggy shorts, a beach shirt, untied shoes, and a baseball cap. Both kids only remove the baseball caps to take a bath when they're out of school.
1696. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/30/2001 1:02:01 PM
The reason I insist on my kids travelling light is they are rarely the ones who have to lug the suitcases. On this trip, it would be their grandparents... and they will appreciate the forethought.
1697. CalGal - 6/30/2001 1:04:40 PM
My son: baggy shorts, a beach shirt, untied shoes, and a baseball cap.
Substitute a teeshirt with a logo for the beach shirt, and that's my kid.
He packs pretty well--but then I'm the sort who takes everything, so what do I know?
1698. ScottLoar - 6/30/2001 1:06:38 PM
My daughter wears bandanas around her hair, thankfully not like Aunt Jemima, but like a sweatband. This is most important, the bandana is carefully folded and pleated just so and placed around the crown just so. Colors vary but tend to basic black and white paisley. I suspect she thinks baseball caps make her head look small. She does have one longer, multi-colored scarf that she lets hang down from the back like a Tripoli pirate.
1699. arkymalarky - 6/30/2001 1:14:22 PM
Mose is a very conservative dresser--not in dress lengths or coverage, but in styles--whereas I was the weirdest-dressed kid in high school. Fortunately/unfortunately, depending on your pov, they didn't have a category for that in the yearbook. With Mose it's like everything else, she's picky in ways that I just don't get.
1700. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 7:38:11 PM
I got to ride yesterday and it was seriously breathtaking. We went through the lushest tropical rain-forest until we hit the beach, and then cantered next to the water on whitest-white sand. JOY!
I'm used to riding through rainforrest. In fact, I can't remember the last time I rode elsewhere. But it is most usually temperate forest in the south: nothing like the verdant voluptuousness of the forrest here.
The horses were also incredible. They were so responsive and generally good natured. The fuckers gave me their most difficult horse though, because I was the only experienced rider in the group. But they also gave me the independence to deal with him how I wished.
See, these horses were so amazing because they were trained in the "Horse WHisperer" method, a very natural and humane form of horsemanship. I have never ridden in this style, and it was frustrating at first, because it is so different from what I'm used to.
But once I got the hang of it, it was phenomenal! The horse felt almost connected to my brain. He had the softest, smoothest canter! Normally, I don't like to canter so much. I much prefer to trot or to gallop - much smoother.
But we were forbidden from galloping on the beach because if we hit a soft bit of sand, we would almst certainly come off. Of course, this was disappointing at first, until I felt that horse's canter! Like being on a magic carpet!
But he was a cranky fucker. He kept trying to bite the other horses, and if not kept on the straight and narrow, seemed to enjoy wandering off to eat the sugarcane.
But like I said, once I got the hang of his training style, he was simply a dream to ride.
And what was this biting, cranky horse's name?
Tyson.
No one else got the joke.
1701. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 7:55:59 PM
Khaval,
You're leading a lucky life this week, I must say.
Where are you exactly? What town? Maybe I'd like to mournfully check out a link on the Internet and mourn for my now-spent youth.
1702. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 7:57:18 PM
It's mourning in America.
Actually, my excessive dolefulness can be attributed to my refusal to read again or preview my posts. Lazy, I know.
1703. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:01:02 PM
Marji, you are so right. Actually, my heavily disguised religious streak has been popping up quite often here, and I internally sing God's praises at the beauty of it all and the incredible, mind-boggling luck that enables me to be here.
The town I am in is called Port Douglas. It's about half an hour north of Cairs, which is the largest town in the far north of Australia.
Put it (Port Douglas) into Google, and you'll come up with heaps of matches.
Also type in "Shaolin". Maybe the boat I am going on tomorrow will have a site. I suspect they will.
1704. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:02:08 PM
Marji, re:#1702 - Huh?
1705. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:04:36 PM
1702 is silliness. I used 'mourn' twice in a sentence and tried to apologize for my sloppy laziness. "Morning in America" was a Reagan slogan.
1706. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:06:58 PM
Nice junk. Nice location. That being tugged in a net bit looks pretty silly, though. So there!
1707. PsychProf - 7/1/2001 8:09:19 PM
Scott, Snod and Arky...what wonderful adventures for your young teens. It makes me critically examine my somewhat parochial lifestyle.
1708. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:10:09 PM
What Khaval will be doing tomorrow - 
I ask you all, does this look like fun?
(Just joking, Khaval. I'd sure prefer it to wearing a suit in frigging muggy NYC tomorrow)
1709. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:10:31 PM
Marj, LOL! Listen, bastard, your post-fonts are GREEN with jealously. I could not imagine anything more fun than being schlepped along in azure waters as the sun shines and my bathers are wedgied.
1710. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:11:47 PM
Yay, Marj. Thanks for posting those pics. It makes me even more excited (better be careful or I'll have a stroke).
1711. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:16:52 PM
Well, get a load of this superimposed blurb: 
It looks like a cool boat, I've been on one almost identical (in Goa) for a late night dinner cruise. Nothing quite as rowdy as what you've got planned.
I note also that your boat is termed "romantic" more than one site. Maybe you should get even more excited.
1712. ScottLoar - 7/1/2001 8:18:05 PM
PyschProf, my daughter received an invitation from the Chicago office of Cambridge University to apply for a summer session there. Sure, it is probably open to anyone who pays the tuition and surely every sophomore and junior at her school got an invite, but I was the one to open the letter... and cried. When I was sixteen and living in the wastes of American suburbia in the early 60's this was the stuff made my dreams. But my daughter? To her credit she said she didn't want to spend another summer in Europe (sorry, AlistairConnor), wasn't interested and no, also wasn't interested in spending her summer with East Coast preppies. And that's how she's going where she's going.
1713. ScottLoar - 7/1/2001 8:20:13 PM
Without going to the website your boat Shaolin looks like a teak junk made in Hong Kong the name, of course, coming from that famous school (formerly sect) of martial arts.
1714. ScottLoar - 7/1/2001 8:21:16 PM
No, I don't think you'll have to fight your way onboard.
1715. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:22:30 PM
Er, Marj... I think "romanti" refers to the idea of sailing on a junk and being on a boat at sunset.
At the very most, the word is used to lure honeymooners, playing to their sex-hormone induced idiocy.
It is far far far away from being the Fairstar Fun Ship. Gawd!
BTW, I have yet only seen one cute guyy up here - an Anglo, would you believe!!! But he is always sequestered behind the pool bar, so it's rough for me to get at him. Heh heh
1716. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:23:25 PM
Loar,
Your story above is powerful stuff. Congratulations and congratulations also to the other parents of teenagers who've posted here earlier. Those stories (Loar's particularly) hit me in a strange place I'm not even willing to explore at this point.
1717. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:24:51 PM
Scott, LOL. That (fighting) would be very very funny. I, of course, would fight dirty and employ liberal tickling.
1718. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:26:30 PM
Khaval,
It looks like too much fun for anyone to have at this particular moment. But I'm not complaining too much, yesterday was summerstage's Rai-fest and it was also an occasion to praise the skies for existence.
1719. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:27:53 PM
Scott: I don't get it. Why wouldn't your daughter want to study in Europe? Is it just the Cambrisge thingy because the people will be uppity, or what?
1720. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:29:21 PM
Oy Marji! I forgot about the Rai fest... forgot how GREENLY jealous I am of *you* for that!!! Man! Tell me about it! Let me bask vicariously.
1721. ScottLoar - 7/1/2001 8:32:05 PM
My daughter was in Europe last summer with two gay chaperones and just doesn't want to remove herself from (I fumble for the words) the American scene right now and, yes, she thinks the Cambridgey thingy old and stuffy and that's not what she wants. She wants Berkeley. She's got things to explore and Cambrige can't answer that for now.
1722. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/1/2001 8:35:48 PM
Khaval:
Your experiences in the north sound wonderful... I've always wanted to visit the York Peninsula, especially at this time of year. I note you say "the far north"... but doesn't the peninsula continue north for something like 1000 km?
1723. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:37:32 PM
Well, it was not quite what I expected ( i look to later summerstage offerings now for just breakout boogieing).
Cheikha Remitti was extremely soulful and there were a lot of people dancing like crazy. But the moment I heard her voice I had to go the back of the (very small) concert area and grab a seat on the bleachers to properly watch her sing. very very expressive, rueful, defiant, bluesy, authoritative. She's one of the most masterful female singers I've ever heard/seen.
The intro act was some triphoppy duo of Turks who played some interesting grooves, but left me fairly cold and concentrating on the kebabs we'd packed.
1724. marjoribanks - 7/1/2001 8:43:04 PM
Irva,
So sorry to hear about poor old BGPelaire.
But you're childless and fancy-free now, eh? Any exciting plans with the long-suffering (and heroic) Madame Snodgrass?
1725. khaval alazman - 7/1/2001 8:46:37 PM
MArji, sounds AMAZING! Still jealous.
Scott, oh! Your daughter sounds amazingly mature and sensible in that case. Actually, she sounds plain awesome!
Irv, hello :) Yeah. It's beautiful here. As for the "far north" deignation - we are not on the peninsula, but the the East Coast just below it. ANd I don't know exactly the distance to Cape York, but the official name for Cairns and everything north of it is "The Australian Far North".
1726. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/1/2001 9:18:08 PM
Marj:
Well, this week I'm travelling in Java. Next week, I'll be totally alone. The wife is staying in Jakarta these days, so I'll have an empty house. Even the servant is going on holiday. I'll miss the sound of the kids yelling and MTV blaring... hmmm, maybe it's not so bad.
Khaval: Sort of like the "midwest" in the USA, I guess.
1727. Jenerator - 7/1/2001 11:53:52 PM
Berkeley's a great school Scott! She'll get an excellent education there.
One of my students won a full scholarship to Vassar. She and I were discussing college life and she asked me why I chose to get my MA in England. I told her my reasons and she was surprised. Evidently, she had received an invitation from Oxford, but chose Vassar because she was intimidated by the thought of living overseas (and couldn't believe that I had "given up my life here" to go to the UK to study).
This student has been to several countries, but does not want to study abroad.
Maybe she and your daughter will be ready to take the challenge for their graduate studies.
1728. ScottLoar - 7/2/2001 8:28:15 AM
Jenerator, my daughter's only going to Berkeley for summer school - she's an entering junior in highschool yet. As for university still two years away I think she favours Boston College.
1729. Jenerator - 7/2/2001 10:53:43 AM
Boston's a great city and Boston College is excellent too! What is she taking in summer school?
1730. Dusty - 7/2/2001 11:08:50 AM
I have fond memories of Boston College. My BIL lived within walking distance. Thanksgiving was a tradition at their house, and I always went for a run by BC.
1731. marjoribanks - 7/2/2001 11:10:49 AM
Boston College, according to me, is a place where people go to blend into the mainstream. As a college, it is distinguished without being exceptional, and resolutely unquirky in every detail. People there are defiantly, ostentatiously, everyday and "all-american".
I speak from some experience. My cousin went there, she of Indo-German parentage, and she wanted to blend in more than anything else. When I visited, I met more than your usual percentage of similar kids with similar motivations.
Odd school, in that way.
1732. thoughtful - 7/2/2001 11:12:44 AM
jj, you might want to post a link to zagat's: http://www.zagat.com for restaurant reviews.
1733. ScottLoar - 7/2/2001 11:29:49 AM
Interesting comments on Boston College.
1734. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/2/2001 11:38:41 AM
ScottLoar:
There's no better place for a college student than Boston.
1735. ScottLoar - 7/2/2001 11:49:59 AM
I had heard that students at Boston College work hard and play hard, this from a young guy from Boston. And, it seems everyone gives Boston high, high remarks for being Boston and agreeable to college students. I'm more and more in favour of Boston for her.
1736. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/2/2001 11:56:15 AM
Travel Notes:
I'm currently in historic Yogyakarta, on my monthly travels around Java (tomrrow I head for Klaten, Solo, and Semarang).
Yogya is a pleasant city of about 2 million, including many students at its 18 universities. It stays peaceful in the worst of times, and, despite having the largest concentration of Catholics in Java (nearly 30% of the population), there is no hint of the religious strife infecting other parts of the country.
Historic temples dating back more than a thousand years dot the countryside (including the Hindu Prambanan complex, and Borobudur, the world's largest Buddhist stupa). The city was also the capital of Indonesia for a brief period after independence.
If any of you like good value in a travel destination, you can't beat Yogya... I'm staying in a beautiful hotel (on the 8th floor, great view), part of an American chain, for $15 a night, including a breakfast buffet. I took my staff here out to lunch today... total cost, including drinks, for 4 people: $3.
1737. JJBiener - 7/2/2001 12:23:06 PM
Thoughtful - Thanks for the link. It is in place.
1738. ScottLoar - 7/2/2001 1:08:57 PM
Yogya has a large Chinese population, yes?
1739. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/2/2001 1:11:36 PM
Not really... it's very small compared to just about any other major city in Indonesia. The largest Chinese populations are in Jakarta, Medan, Semarang and Surabaya. Since Yogya is mostly a tourist and university town, and not an economic hotspot, the Chinese community is quite small... 1-2%.
1740. joezan - 7/3/2001 12:21:16 AM
Named for Yogi Berra, I take it?
Anyway...
Indulge me, my friends, my walking tour of Grand Haven, Michigan...
First, you'll need a place to stay. There are many generic hotels along the highway, but the best accommodations are had at the Harbor House Hotel - very comfortable - fireplaces in the sitting rooms - an historic building, and it overlooks Grand Haven Harbor and the channel:
Then, of course, you'll want to shop. Washington Street, just a stone's throw north of the Harbor House, offers the best specialty shopping on in western MI:
1741. joezan - 7/3/2001 12:35:16 AM
On the northeast corner of Washington and Harbor Blvd. is the Harbourfront Mall. This shopping center - and a condo complex which connects to it via an elevated walkway over Columbus St. a block north, was for 100 years the Story & Clark Piano Works. The renovations, completed a few years ago, are splendid. All the stores here are pretty pricey, catering primarily to the Chicago tourists who flock to the area (and their summer homes) from May to September. From October through April, things are marked down considerably.
1742. joezan - 7/3/2001 12:48:31 AM
For a small downtown (5 blocks on the main drag, Washington Street) there is an incredible diversity of one-of-a-kind shops. The Central Business District is tightly controlled by the Association of Businessmen and Women, who make sure that the area retains its natural architecture, and encourage its shop owners to actually live above their stores. Many of these stores - though most have been converted from their original specialties to serve the tourist trade - have been in the same family for generations.
One of these is Fortino's - the town's first full-service grocery, opened in 1907, owned now by a great-granddaughter of the original owner. Their specialty imported foods and extensive wine selection is unique in this part of Michigan:
This is A Stitch In Time, another long-time player here:
1743. joezan - 7/3/2001 12:58:03 AM
The Calico Cat is the best gift shop in the world, imo. They have everything from real Tiffany lamps, to wrought iron wall hangings, to authentic Indian jewelry, to unusual kitchen gadgets...but they specialize in stoneware and Delftware:
The Mackinaw Kite Co. is a blast - they sell all sorts of kites, windsocks, (even para-sailing and para-skiing equipment), but we love it for the toys - all kinds of unusual toys that they set right out for you to play with before you buy:
1744. joezan - 7/3/2001 1:10:52 AM
Anyone remember those Marushka art prints that were so popular around 15 - 20 years ago? Well, his print shop was right here. After they had managed to sell at least one of them to everybody in the world (although Scott Loar probably managed to pass it up), and the market for primitive, monochrome prints of leafless trees printed on high-grade burlap with no frame was used up, Marushka retired, and sold to these folks - The Michigan Rag Co.:
Pretty soon, everyone in the world will own an oversized burlap beach parka, with monochrome lighthouse and seagull prints, which scrapes the hair right off your armpits, and they'll switch to wallpaper or something.
Meantime, they do a very brisk busines:
They even let you watch them print. The really smart kids know that, even standing outside with a screen door keeping you out, you can still get high off the fumes:
1745. joezan - 7/3/2001 1:20:26 AM
Almost directly acros the street from your hotel is the Grand Haven Harbor Channel - with its beautiful, 2-mile-long pier and boardwalk. This shot looks northwest, from the Coast Guard search and rescue station:
Here's a wider shot, looking out towards the pier and ligh house:
1746. joezan - 7/3/2001 1:30:51 AM
Now, you're hungry. Right?
This first place is my favorite, and the last of its kind in Michigan:
(The hand-written sign just above the blonde's head says: This is Cholesterol Country. If you're looking for something low-fat, you'd better move along.
But, if you find that the ambience and down-home delivery of the Pronto Pup is not to your liking, a mere 3 steps down the boardwalk you will find Snug Harbor, which serves excellent seafood and steaks. And, if you eat late enough (or just stay at your table on the deck drinking long enough), you will be treated to a display of the World's Largest Musical Fountain, which runs every night during the summer from that hill across the channel, for about 1/2-hour starting at dusk:
1747. ScottLoar - 7/3/2001 4:19:15 AM
JoeZan's travelogue is prompted by excusably small town boosterism and a new, digital camera. JoeZan may be pleased to note this is one Chicagoan who with his wife will soon visit Western Michigan for vacation but, no, inexcusably deny myself the luxury of Marushka any-things. I have not a digital camera and will not critique the area for fear of the Wrath of Zan.
1748. Dusty - 7/3/2001 8:58:11 AM
Nice tour Joe, thanks
1749. JudithAtHome - 7/3/2001 9:50:53 AM
Thanks for the morning tour with my coffee...I'm already thinking of ProntoPups for lunch!
1750. Jenerator - 7/3/2001 9:56:26 AM
JoeZan,
I miss Grand Haven, Bay Springs, Petosky and Charlevoix more than you can imagine. Michigan has such beautiful little towns (and the best fly fishing outside of Oregon!)
1751. joezan - 7/3/2001 10:16:54 AM
Scott:
Yeah - but will you treat your wife to a Pronto Pup?
Or, if she prefers international fare, how about a World Famous Butch's Beach Burrito?
Judith:
Do they have Pronto Pups in TX? I know they used to be a chain, and were even in Atlantic City N.J., and Chicago for awhile. But I'd heard the few remaining 'Pup stands are now privately owned.
Dusty:
You're welcome.
Jen:
Petoskey is the only place in Michigan, imho, more beautiful than this area.
1752. JudithAtHome - 7/3/2001 10:24:38 AM
joezan:
No, they don't have them here...I was only "thinking" of them, alas.
1753. joezan - 7/3/2001 11:00:45 AM
Geez...I forgot a photo of the beach!
This is why Western MI is known as Michigan's White Coast. This is all Sugar Sand - so pure and abundant, it is actually exported for use at resorts as far away as the Bahamas, and for quality sand-casting.
And, though frequently filled with ice-bergs during the winter, Lake Michigan's waters this far south during the summer months are usually around 72ºF.
1754. PsychProf - 7/3/2001 12:12:30 PM
Joe...very interesting.
1755. Hamsa - 7/3/2001 3:02:50 PM
Do they have real camembert in Australia?
You cannot find the real stuff in the states as anything unpasteurized is stopped at the borders.
How old is your daughter IrvingSnodgrass?
1756. Hamsa - 7/3/2001 3:12:54 PM
Cannot get used to this posting window at the bottom of each screen, and I am afraid that I posted before I realized I still had about 50 posts to read.
Joe,
I love to knit so for me the pic of the yarn store looked magnificent.
1757. ScottLoar - 7/3/2001 3:27:10 PM
Although naught but a frequent visitor to Oz I can testify the cheese like the wine is boffo, and if subject to the same ilk of ridiculous government tampering has not yet had the flavour legislated out as in the US.
1758. marjoribanks - 7/3/2001 7:54:34 PM
In the spirit of Zan's joyful depiction of his surroundings, I offer you all this photograph of the view from my doorstep -taken ten minutes ago.
1759. DanDillon - 7/3/2001 8:10:47 PM
marj,
Mumbai looks lovely this time of year.
;-)
1760. khaval alazman - 7/3/2001 8:14:02 PM
Good God, sirs! *Of course* we have real camembert here. Oz has fantastic wine and cheeses. Some of the best in the world (our butter sucks though). Israel is one of - if not the - highest consumers per capita of dairy product, but it's totally different stuff. Lots of sloppy mushy stuff, and Bulgarian cheese to shit on the world's best.
I don't know anything about wine -but I knows my cheese!
1761. khaval alazman - 7/3/2001 8:15:14 PM
Will be sailing on the Shaolin in an hour.
Was meant to go yesterday but there was a grand fuckup.
Excitedexcitedexcited....
Home tmorrow night.
1762. marjoribanks - 7/3/2001 8:15:38 PM
You know, it's an odd thing. I walk on that walkway you see on the right every evening. These days, we even sit out there very late into the night, often eating there as well. I've come to observe that clump of downtown buildings rather closely over an extended period of time. Though they're different colors, they shine in one hue at various times, in various seasons.
Last night, I wish i'd taken my camera. It was glorious at ten o'clock and we sat out giving the tyke his final bottle before bed. The sky was a deep violet, and the buildings shone somehow in this metallic blue that was extremely unusual. It was perfect weather-wise, and so peaceful it's hard to imagine we're six minutes from Wall St.
Sometimes, in Fall for some reason, the skyline glows reddish-orange. The following has a hint of that, though more gold, and was taken a couple of evenings ago.
1763. marjoribanks - 7/3/2001 8:16:29 PM
Heh, Dillon, the lights of Mumbai would make any gauche New Yorker weep in inadequacy.
1764. marjoribanks - 7/3/2001 8:17:10 PM
Have fun in the net, Khaval. And then come and tell us about it on this net.
1765. khaval alazman - 7/3/2001 8:17:18 PM
I ate sticky date pudding in burnt-caramel sauce for brekky *Mwrrr*
Am actually looking forward to going home.
I'm such a sad sack! I miss my folks and my cat.
1766. khaval alazman - 7/3/2001 8:18:34 PM
They are beautiful pics, Marji.
And thanks. I will.
1767. DanDillon - 7/3/2001 8:20:16 PM
sticky date pudding in burnt-caramel sauce
Would you happen to have a recipe?
1768. khaval alazman - 7/3/2001 8:33:23 PM
Sorry Dan. I got take-out last night from a restaurant and I ate it as keft-overs. It is the most delicious thing I have ever eaten anywhere.
Might be an Aussi thing, though.
1769. Jenerator - 7/3/2001 8:37:55 PM
Beautiful view Marj.
1770. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/3/2001 9:48:11 PM
Joe:
I enjoyed your travelogue!
Hamsa:
My daughter is 12... check out the Parenting thread for pics of her.
1771. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/3/2001 9:53:05 PM
Travel Notes
Today I am in Semarang, the capital of the province of Central Java. It's a sleepy town of 4 million.
Here's a view from my hotel window:
Semarang, although it's Indonesia's 4th largest city, isn't really famous for anything, except possibly for being the gateway to Jepara, the furniture-producing center of the country. It's also just down the road from Demak, where Islam first came to Java (and the original mosque still stands).
1772. ScottLoar - 7/3/2001 10:44:44 PM
Now, yes! That I would like to see. The first mosque in Java.
1773. joezan - 7/3/2001 11:02:12 PM
marj:
Beautiful view.
If you've got to live in Jersey, I guess that's the way to go.
1774. PsychProf - 7/4/2001 12:20:01 PM
Irv...how neat is the ability to share life on-the spot...please keep showing us your travels...Banks..wave to my son across the Hudson...
1775. ScottLoar - 7/4/2001 12:45:14 PM
I second PP, do all show us your photos and comments.
1776. ElliottRW - 7/4/2001 5:18:59 PM
RosettaStone (from the GIF thread): Much of the summer we will be in Europe or the Outer Banks, NC.
I'm sure you'll have a great time. My family went to the outer banks last summer and had a blast. The kids especially had a good time catching (and releasing) crabs on the beach after dark. I really enjoyed playing golf at the scenic (but somewhat difficult) Nags Head golf links. Have a great trip.
PsychProf--do I remember correctly that you went to N.C. on vacation recently? What did you find most memorable about that trip?
1777. khaval alazman - 7/4/2001 5:29:28 PM
Hi all. It's 7:30am here, and soon, I'll be hopping on the plane back to Melbourne. I don't think I'm as sad about it as a normal person would be.
This place is just such a paradise! But I want my smog, rain, dense population, and - just - city! Also going to pat my cat a lot.
Anyway, yesterday I went ofn the Junk boat, The Shao Lin. IT was simply amazing. We took a glorious trip out to theLow Islands in the Coral Sea. People not [hobic of fish snorkeled. I stuck around the shore of the island (pristine - a national park) and swam in the warm aqua and azure coloured waters (relatively fishless).
The tour comprised almost uniquely Welsh rugby supporters - both boomers and my age. When not drunk, these rugby supporters are actually a lot of fun -quite gentlemanly.
There was also an Indian girl on board who was the nanny to 3 very blonde children. SHe and I became fast friends and teased the men of the cruise for their whiteness and flabbiness.
It was just delightful!
We also took a glass-bottomed boat ride. The fish stayed away, so I got to see nheaps of coral.
Just an incredible and beautiful day. Good for the soul. I reccomend it to everyone.
1778. ElliottRW - 7/4/2001 11:05:25 PM
Here is where my family went while I stayed at home, worked, and studied.
1779. thoughtful - 7/5/2001 5:07:40 PM
Hubby and I took off on Tuesday for Macedonia State Park...I was surprised at how empty is was considering it is sort of a holiday week. Climbed to the top of Mt. Cobble...granted not a rocky mountain or even a NH mountain, but were able to see 3 states from there. Not bad. I suggest that everyone not neglect the wonderful state parks in your area...a great way to feel like you're on a real vacation with the advantages of less travel time, less traffic, less gas and lower expenses. Lots of fresh air and exercise too.
1780. JudithAtHome - 7/5/2001 5:11:57 PM
Elliot:
Loved your family vacation photos; sorry you had to work!
1781. PelleNilsson - 7/5/2001 5:19:38 PM
thoughtful
Why is it called Macedonia?
1782. Jenerator - 7/5/2001 6:23:34 PM
Elliot
I *loved* your family photos. Your kids are too cute and I love all of their outfits, what dolls!
I wish I had been to the beach.
1783. ScottLoar - 7/5/2001 8:15:23 PM
Message # 1779 An interesting word that comes to us by way of New Hampshire: monadnock n. A mountain or rocky mass that has resisted erosion and stands isolated in a plain or peneplain.
1784. thoughtful - 7/6/2001 8:46:35 AM
Pelle, Because it's located in the town named Macedonia...and the brook that runs through it is called Macedonia Brook.
I don't know why it's named what it is, but I suspect it has to do with the fact that many settlers in the area were religious christians and during the 18th century when religious fervor was at its peak, called the Great Awakening, there were a number of towns named with the bible in mind...in Connecticut you can find Bethlehem, Canaan, New Canaan, Sharon, Lebanon, Bethel, Hebron and Goshen. I'm sure there are others.
1785. Shannon - 7/6/2001 9:19:30 AM
Nice pics, Elliott.
We go to the beach 2 weeks from tomorrow. I'm quite ready for a vacation.
1786. msgreer - 7/7/2001 11:30:15 AM
Judith
Paris. I feel like going to priceline and bidding for a ticket.
1787. JJBiener - 7/7/2001 12:23:30 PM
MsGreer - Make it two.
1788. msgreer - 7/7/2001 12:35:40 PM
JJ
Judith turned me on to a CNN travel program about traveling in Paris. It was enchanting.
1789. JJBiener - 7/7/2001 12:47:06 PM
MsGreer - I have never been to Paris. I understand it gets a bad rap from Americans who say the people are rude. I have heard that if you are polite and ask for help, you will be treated very well. I would like to go someday.
1790. msgreer - 7/7/2001 12:53:05 PM
JJ
I plan to go someday.
1791. ElliottRW - 7/7/2001 1:03:24 PM
Judith, Jen, Shannon,
Thanks. I would have enjoyed going with them but, at the same time, I think their absence was a good experience, too.
Enjoy your vacation, Shannon. I look forward to seeing your pics.
1792. arkymalarky - 7/7/2001 1:19:15 PM
We loved Paris, and everyone was nice to us. We didn't go anyplace fancy, rode the tube, and did a lot of walking and everyone was laid back and friendly. I didn't like Nice at all, though--not because of the people, who were nice (ha) enough. I just didn't like the city. The least friendly place (but not rude) we visited was Germany. The rudest person we encountered on our whole trip was a German lady behind the desk at the airport in Detroit on the way home and a rude Texan on another bus who took it personally that we were from Bill Clinton's home state. Oh, and the Texans who were on our bus who didn't mean to be rude, it just seemed to come naturally, which was worse in a way. (and Mote Texans don't forget, lest you think I'm down on Texans, Ich bien ein Texan).
1793. ScottLoar - 7/8/2001 9:21:52 PM
The wife and I have decided to spend a vacation on Mackinac Island, leaving here Monday morning and allowing a lazy two day's travel to get there, to spend Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday night at a local B&B, then leaving Friday to lazily wend our way through Michigan back to Chicago perhaps Saturday.
1794. ScottLoar - 7/8/2001 9:22:45 PM
And, of course we can do this because our daughter just left today for six weeks at Berkeley. We are lighting out fast as we can.
1795. ScottLoar - 7/8/2001 9:27:40 PM
And, saw Cirque de Soleil's "Dralion" today live at the United Center. Quite good. I've seen four or five of their productions and recommend it to almost everyone - save the people sitting next to us and spotted here and there throughout the audience who register no reaction, no cheer, no surprise, and reluctantly offer up some occasional and niggardly applause. I don't know what's wrong with them other than that they cannot appreciate the skill of those performers and the difficulty of what they're seeing.
1796. JJBiener - 7/8/2001 10:45:07 PM
Scott - I am a huge fan of Cirque de Soleil. I think their combination of music, costume, dance and acrobatics is phenomenal.
1797. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/8/2001 11:08:47 PM
ScottLoar Message # 1772:
Now, yes! That I would like to see. The first mosque in Java.
Not the best of photos and not a terribly informative site, but here it is:
The Demak Mosque 
1798. Erinys - 7/8/2001 11:37:18 PM
Road trippin' with my two favorite allies
Fully loaded we got snacks and supplies
It's time to leave this town
It's time to steal away
Let's go get lost
Anywhere in the U.S.A.
-Red Hot Chili Peppers
1799. Erinys - 7/9/2001 12:28:43 AM
This interface is so weird... I was just transported to a post by Judith about don s. heaping coals about her head....
1800. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 3:08:00 AM
Erinys, was that trip business or pleasure? :)
1801. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 3:34:49 AM
So, I haven't posted in a while.
Am back in Melbourne, where it's freezing and rainy - just how I like it. Usually, I hate the sun and anything resembling heat, unless, of course I am in a tropical paradise and the most strenuous activity is sipping a Mai Tai while listening to my Persian tape (Bozorg!) by a lagoon pool. Then, sun's OK. :)
But I'd like very much to write of the Shaolin Junk cruise out to the Low Isles which I took on my final day in Port Douglas.
Actually, better than writing would be pictures... not mine - but still mostly accurate.
It was simply one of the most divine things I've ever done (except riding horses along the PD beach).
cont....
1802. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 3:39:58 AM
LOL... no one looked like that the day I took the cruise. I'm sure the 20 odd British rugby supporters were somewhat disappointed.
1803. Jenerator - 7/9/2001 12:30:11 PM
Khaval,
Why on earth were you in such a hurry to get back to the city?
1804. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 12:44:37 PM
Jen, I have to get ready for school (this coming Monday), I couldn't afford more than a week, I go berserk if far away from a big city for too long, there are only so many drunken British rugby supporters a girl can handle, I can only stand the hot weather for so long, and my cat needed me (OK, that's a lie - but she is awful clingy now I'm back... total cuddle-slut).
It was a beautiful holiday, but I am still very glad to be back.
It was a spur of the moment decision to go, and I neglected to tell most of my friends I was going. There were a number of irate and some concerned messages to deal with upon my return. I had a feeling this would happen, and in a weird way, it just seemed irresponsible to disappear off the map for longer than 7 days.
Also, my darlingest girlfriend just got back from doing dangerous work with an NGO in Sri Lanka, and I deperately wanted to speak to her and make sure all was OK (it is).
1805. Jenerator - 7/9/2001 12:49:39 PM
Drunken British rugby fans. Enoug said there!;-) (At least they weren't Irish!)
Did you get a tan?
What was the exchange rate like?
Also, are you in the final portion of school?
1806. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 1:20:30 PM
Jen, I don't tan. I am neurotic about the sunlight and my skin - in AUstralia, anyway. The sun here burns me if I am not totally vigilant. I have very very white sking (except my cheeks).
Exchange rate? I was still in Australia. I did exchange a winning smile (and some money) for a Mai Tai or two, though :)
And Yes. This is now the home stretch. One year to go... and then....
AMSTERDAM!!!
(will continue studying there -please God)
1807. JudithAtHome - 7/9/2001 1:30:09 PM
khaval:
Is Port Douglas below the Tropic of Cancer? When I was on Okinawa, which is below it, I found the sun to be brutal...could only go out every other day for an hour or two. My skin tanned well and I was used to sun exposure but not there!
Now, and for the last 15 years, I've avoided the sun like a vampire...
1808. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 1:36:50 PM
Judith, we can sup a blood cocktail tigether! :) I too am utterly vampiric! Indeed, one of my Grandmothers comes from Transylvania (I swear).
I am pretty sure that PD is above the Tropic of Capricorn and that the tropic of Cancer is in the Nthrn hemisphere, but could be wrong. WHatever the case, PD is very close to the equator.
1809. PelleNilsson - 7/9/2001 1:36:59 PM
khaval
Since your appearnces here are somewhat unpredictable as to where and when:
Alicia Chudo And Quiet Flows the Vodka was recommended to me by LohrM and I know recommend it to you. It is send-up of the Russian intellegentsia and of post-modernism. I don't often laugh when I read something but I did over this one.
Do you have plans for the Future thread or should be discreetly retired?
1810. khaval alazman - 7/9/2001 1:42:28 PM
Pelle, thankyou! SOunds fantastic. Will search for it post haste!.
And as for the future thread, there is a small problem: I much prefer to read what others write there, than to write myself. I realise this makes me a crappy host. My reasons for wanting that thread in the first place were similarly parasitic.
And it seems that posts are thin on the ground there at the moment. SO maybe it is best to retire it.
Obviusly, if people disagree, they can speak up.
But I do want to thank you and the other powers that be for giving me a go at that whole hosting bizzo and setting the thread up. It was a lot of fun.
1811. PelleNilsson - 7/9/2001 2:05:50 PM
I copied part of your post to Suggestions and published a poem from the book in Poetry.
1812. labwabbit - 7/9/2001 2:12:28 PM
#1809
Now you know
1813. PelleNilsson - 7/9/2001 3:41:21 PM
Yes, appalling spelling there, not appealing at all.
1814. labwabbit - 7/9/2001 3:49:54 PM
Ya want to see appalling spelling, see my posts in Finance and careers. Now THAT'S not funny.
1815. Hamsa - 7/15/2001 4:05:35 AM
Since I am a big fan of this place:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/15/travel/AGRI.html
1816. Hamsa - 7/15/2001 4:37:05 AM
1817. Hamsa - 7/15/2001 4:38:25 AM
Oops the image did not appear, but you can link to the article.
1818. marjoribanks - 7/19/2001 2:30:27 PM
In the spirit of Zan's efforts, I took my own limited digital camera to a scenic spot on the N.E. Seaboard and took some photos.
Can anyone identify the place?
1819. ScottLoar - 7/20/2001 10:03:15 AM
Looks like a scenic spot on the Northeast seaboard.
1820. janjon - 7/20/2001 10:57:58 AM
That was funny, Loar.
What makes me have a hunch that this is from somewhere on the Hudson shoreline on the Jersey side.
1821. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 11:28:13 AM
Let's get a bit more specific, boyos.
What is the name of this idyll? Here's another photo to help:
1822. ScottLoar - 7/20/2001 11:43:11 AM
How'd you get that photo of me and the wife in the foreground!
1823. Jenerator - 7/20/2001 11:48:16 AM
Scott,
You're all the man I envision you to be!;-)
1824. JudithAtHome - 7/20/2001 11:52:02 AM
So, os this Atlantic City or something? Is there a place called the Palisades?
I've only been to Atlantic City once BT...Before Trump...so I have no idea what it looks like now but I like to play guessing games with pictures.
1825. JudithAtHome - 7/20/2001 11:52:16 AM
os=is
1826. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 12:02:42 PM
Well, with your indulgence, game players, I will hold back the answer till 4:30 or so my time. This because I'm most likely away till then, and because I want to get some more guesses from people who know the region.
Loar, if that was you, I must commend you on the deep silent bond you have with your wife. I sat next to that couple for an hour, fed my child, scarfed down a picnic meal, and in all that time they read quietly, only lifting their heads now and then to exchange smiles.
1827. JudithAtHome - 7/20/2001 12:07:16 PM
in all that time they read quietly, only lifting their heads now and then to exchange smiles.
That sounds so sweet...and comforting.
1828. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 12:10:38 PM
Final hint:
1829. khaval alazman - 7/20/2001 12:16:51 PM
Irv, as promised, here are a couple of pics from my stay in Bali in 1980.
Once I finally got the mask (after a rousing performance of the Ramayana), I didn't take it off.
The back yard of the house in which we were staying.
1830. Frankster - 7/20/2001 12:19:09 PM
Marj,
Spanish Landing to the left of Lindburg Field ? I use to ride my bike out there quite often. That is, before the rollerbladers took over.
Chicago ?
1831. janjon - 7/20/2001 12:26:38 PM
It now looks to me as if it is in the Battery Park area, perhaps the newest part up towards the World Financial Center.
If so, within a stone's throw (well, from a talented and strong pitcher) from where I live.
(the railing and lamp posts look familiar, although I am also giving away the fact that I don't get over to the waterside very much. Shameful, I know, but....)
1832. ScottLoar - 7/20/2001 12:47:50 PM
If it were Chicago it would have to be from an island erected within the last half hour and looking west towards the city. Everyone in Chicago knows "the lake is east".
1833. Frankster - 7/20/2001 12:59:29 PM
Scott,
Ha-ha-ha!
Heck, I don't. I've never been there and know very little about Chicago, except for its chilly offshore winds and frigid winter temperatures. Besides, tectonic plate movement can create islands where there once were none, right ? (g)
1834. labwabbit - 7/20/2001 1:04:15 PM
Bags are packed
I'm ready to go
Taxi's waitin
Blowin it's horn
Already I'm so lones...
NAH...doesn't fit.
What a beautiful, perfectly spectacular day!
1835. JudithAtHome - 7/20/2001 1:08:43 PM
So where're ya going', Lab?
1836. labwabbit - 7/20/2001 1:11:54 PM
Judith bayyyy-beee.
That's right, I forget that a refined young lady as yourself doesn't hang around sport bars...
Research project 4-5 months... some weeks just above, and some weeks just below the arctic circle.
The anticipation is, at times, nearly unbearable.
1837. JudithAtHome - 7/20/2001 1:13:42 PM
Wow...when you travel, you really travel! Will you be in touch here or not? Any chance of photos?
1838. labwabbit - 7/20/2001 1:32:12 PM
I think that I might be able to, just don't know exactly when...
Photos? Well...ya.... (g)
Like I said the photos will be forthcoming if they are able to find the camera in the event I may fail to report to camp...heh.
1839. Jenerator - 7/20/2001 1:57:26 PM
Research this.
1840. labwabbit - 7/20/2001 2:39:36 PM
Research this
Now you know better than to make that offer to a wabbit...
(G)
1841. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:02:12 PM
Well, I was hoping JanJon would be around for this "quiz". Though he eventually guessed it, he is among most New Yorkers who wouldn't recognize the southern tip of Manhattan on the West Side.
Yes, amigos, those leafy, peaceful and scenic pictures are all of Manhattan. Surprised, aren't you? The pyramid-like building in the first shot is the Holocaust Museum, and the buildings across the water in the last one are the complex I live in.
So, we went and checked out the lengthy and well-tended walkway last Sunday and had a very nice time really. I even played volleyball in the shadow of the Twin Towers. There was a great playground, the atmosphere was positively resort-like - all on the fringes of the big city.
I'll post some more shots-
If you come onto that very lengthy walkway as we did - you enter through the World Financial Center and this extremely impressive indoor plaza:
1842. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 4:04:23 PM
Banks...you know that I would recognize it.
1843. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:05:24 PM
Through those glass doors is a marina. Last Sunday was a swimming race around the very tip on Manhattan. The small melee you see on that wooden pier is the finish line, and the organizers are helping a contestant out of the water.
1844. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:08:05 PM
Some of the finishers posing for photographers:
1845. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:13:03 PM
Hard by the spot where those people are posing is the quite nice volleyball court, with good mixed competitive fours. I didn't get a shot, was too busy huffing-and-puffing, but it was very novel to play in that setting.
Behind the court are some very nice restaurants and this quiet memorial to NYC's policemen who have been killed on duty -
1846. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:16:39 PM
But those are all looking away from the riverfront. You've seen pictures of the walkway itself, the rest - especially on a gorgeous summer day - is just an expanse of sky, and water, and then the Statue of Liberty in the distance.
1847. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:17:11 PM
Thassit folks.
1848. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 4:19:03 PM
Thanks Banks.
1849. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:20:46 PM
NYC has some surprising bits, eh Prof?
1850. janjon - 7/20/2001 4:20:57 PM
very nice Marj. Just another little example of what makes this place the greatest, most diverse city in the world.
1851. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 4:21:44 PM
Yes.
1852. janjon - 7/20/2001 4:28:13 PM
I am especially intrigued these days by the justaposition in various parts of the city (especially south of 14th street) of so many "layers" of different cultures that have been present or once dominated in given areas. For instance, large parts of the Village were once working class Italian. There are more than just a few pockets where that remains the case. Many more where there is the continuing patina and some presence (still active churches, the surviving bakery, etc.) but where the hodgepodge that is now NYC, and especially most of the Village, predominates.
The East Village is perhaps an even better example. Most people think of it these days as being what once was called hippie heaven. But, large parts of the East Village were Eastern European, and boy are there reminders. Not just restaurants, but old credit unions, undertakers, etc. And, intermixed are some even earlier cultures that gave way to the E.Europeans when they showed up starting about 125 years ago. For instance, there is a small convent right next to a very old-family well-maintained small cemetary, right smack in the middle of what otherwise would charitably be called a melting pot neighborhood with a heavy overlay of head shops, etc.
Love this place, just love it.
1853. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 4:29:54 PM
JanJon and Banks...I enjoy your trips through the City. And, you have to love that Colgate Clock.
1854. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:47:02 PM
JanJon.
Nicely put. I adore that aspect of Manhattan too, mainly downtown. The world is divided into people who can be claasified by NYC neighborhoods, and I'm with the downtown bunch.
1855. alistairconnor - 7/20/2001 4:47:53 PM
Stay-at-home report :
Having had three Motepersons on the property over the past few weeks, I think it wise to warn future prospective visitors of the difficulties involved.
Sure, our place is remote and hard to find. But that's the easy part. Webfeet and her mother managed to get here OK, and Sto eventually found the house.
But once you arrive, then make your presence known! Once in the courtyard, don't bother knocking on the outside door - no-one will hear you. (I should put up a sign, as in the House at Pooh Corner, Please cnoke if an awnser is not reqird.) Go into the glass entry hall. There's a doorbell but you'll probably miss it. Again, don't knock - the house is large and the walls are thick. Try the door. If it's locked, then we're out. If it opens, enter and loudly announce yourself. If no reply, make yourself at home : pour yourself a drink, weed the garden, log onto the Mote, whatever -we'll be back.
1856. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:53:55 PM
More details please, AC.
Who was the third Motard?
Didja talk about me?
1857. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 4:54:43 PM
Tell all.
1858. alistairconnor - 7/20/2001 4:55:24 PM
The reason for this little rant : the most embarassing non-meeting since Socko and Marj's no-show.
Last week, we visited Sto, Mrs Sto and the three little sto-and-stos in their holiday hangout in the Ardèche. They promised a return visit on their way back to the wintry North.
Last night, puzzled and disappointed at not having seen them, we got a phone call from Sto. It seems they'd turned up in mid-afternoon and found nobody home.
Not so! I literally hadn't been out of the house all day.
1859. alistairconnor - 7/20/2001 5:01:14 PM
I'm sure your name was mentioned, Marj, though whether in fervent admiration or gentle mockery, I don't recall.
The third Motiste was Jay Ackroyd, over here on business.
I see people have been saying good things about North Carolina : that's our holiday destination in a week's time. Say on!
1860. janjon - 7/20/2001 5:05:02 PM
Except for Jesse Helms (and the fact that there are enough people down there who think as he does to keep re-electing him), North Carolina is a fine place.
1861. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 5:05:38 PM
AC...Wrightsville Beach, Wilmington NC...here is some info on the area...CAPE FEAR AREA
1862. marjoribanks - 7/20/2001 5:05:56 PM
Wow, chez Connor is veritable Motard hub. Kind of neat actually, goes with Irva's Bali oupost which has also seen traffic.
1863. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 5:12:24 PM
AC...more...
click on photo 
1864. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 5:19:34 PM
AC...more...Mountains...
1865. PsychProf - 7/20/2001 5:20:21 PM
Here is the link...
Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee
1866. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 10:03:40 AM
cher marj! but all we did was talk about you!
Now, chez connor was lots of fun, but our stay there too quick. my belle mere dropped baby, i and our heavy luggage off, thinking we were one stop away from our final destination to NY --with alistair providing the taxi service from marcenod to the airport in between.
so, after passing a lovely night with the connors, alistair whisked us away bright and early the following morning through the twisting little pastoral road that leads to the autoroute and the airport.About a half hour into the drive, though, poor clement got car sick and vomited buckets of white glop all over mama and the backseat of the car! but, after a brief stop on the side of the road to get some air, we finally arrived at the airport, reeking of vomit, damp and putrid, but at least we got there through the heavy, vacation-mad traffic at the airport.
Alistair graciously met us at check-in with our luggage and we kissed him goodbye. And this is where the cautionary tale on flying stand-by at peak season with a baby begins: We never got on the plane. After an interminable wait, in which I mentally drafted a contingency plan, I knew before the charming hostess approahced me and said, "Desolee,madame.There is no place for you and the baby on the plane" that this was a doomed venture. (All the other stand-bys without babies waiting next to us were admitted into business class however.)
1867. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 10:04:54 AM
So, the upside is we checked into a nice hotel in Lyon, spent the day sight-seeing, and took the TGV Mediteranee back to Aix-en-provence for another week of vacation in the Alps. My husband fed-exed us 2 tickets with reservations thorugh Paris and we arrived back in NYC last week.
I have to say, I amn glad to be home. Normally I kvetch a little to be back in NY, but living with your in-laws for 5 weeks no matter how great they can be and how lovely the accommodations, can get slightly tiring.
And then there's the other part on how my belle mere starved me.
1868. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 10:25:18 AM
I should look up some kind of study on starvation during the deuxieme guerre mondiale in which ordinary frenchmen and women had to eat horses to keep from starving (not meant to coincide with the inappropriately candid comment at the table made by french guest of belle mere's who in an inverted attempt at flattery, told belle mere that her agneau (lamb) tasted like horse meat)and its psychological ramifications on french men and omen today as evidenced by french frugality a la table-- to back my cultural observations, but I know in doing so, I will still be accused of being a Fat American who is used to big portions or something.
But the lady starved me. It was "faire pique-nique" like every other night. This meant subsist on lettuce and bread on the nights when they didn't have guests. And when there were guests, there was nary a left-over. Not a morsel to tuck back in cellophane in the fridge. This happened consistently over the course of last summer in which I observed the embarrassing spectacle of a table of 8 french people mopping every last little bit of sauce with bread in unison because there was not enough food to go around. And this occurred this summer as well.
Now, I am half Armenian. Armenians know a little about starvation thanks to the Ottoman Empire. And in my family where there are no overweight people except my Irish father who starved during the depression as the son of an alcholic vaudeville dancer who spent all his money on moonshine letting his 4 sons go hungry, there is an abundance of food. No-one starves. And so, faire pique nique is kind of like *not in our vocabulary*.
1869. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 10:25:34 AM
I cried the night before my period because I was so goddamn hungry and we were stuck inthe alps and i couldn't even sneak away to a little cafe to have some normal food. When i was told 'faire pique-nique' tears welled in my eyes. A hormonal psycho, I went upstairs and cried and insisted on making potatoes when I returned, composed, a cheerful liar. The potato proposal was met with the maddening french 'pooof' that has driven foreigners crazy in France for generations, as if those potatoes were so unnecessary. But, gently, under control now, thanks to an advil and a biotherm D-stress mask with essential, calming oils that pacify raging appetites and tempers, I persisted.
And, damn if she didn't devour those potatoes! "merci, webfeet." she said afterward, her belly full. In truth, the woman was totally exhausted and this was understandable. But this occurred in my 5th week of faire pique-nique and I had reached the breaking point.
1870. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 10:45:57 AM
1871. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 10:46:48 AM ...WILD applause.... 1872. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 10:49:11 AM Wonderfully told, webbie. 1873. ScottLoar - 7/25/2001 12:07:48 PM Sounds like a resort catering to Vogue models. 1874. thoughtful - 7/25/2001 12:30:00 PM ah, webbie, did you help pay for any of the food while you were living with them so many weeks? 1875. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 1:33:42 PM This is where the teller of a mildly entertaining travel anecdote that is often exaggerated for comic effect at the expense of the French (which after hearing to no end what a third world country I come from is slightly if not pettily satisfying), gets sand thrown in her eyes. Not for being an ugly American, as expected, but for being a cheap and ugly American. 1876. thoughtful - 7/25/2001 1:40:57 PM Not meant to be a joy killer...only relating to my own family (of Eastern European [otherwise known as cheap-ass pollack] heritage) where two brothers out at dinner would sit there until almost closing time each waiting for the other to pick up the check....the Polish standoff ending when one brother finally picked up the check, only to hand it to the other saying, "Here, this is yours." 1877. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 2:30:27 PM To continue my gastronomic tale of woe, there was the covert dinner I had in a cafe after my moment of revelation while reading Peter Mayle's mouthwatering descriptions of french cuisine in his latest, titled "Bon Appetit" or "French Lessons" (as it is called in the edition I saw in NY.) 1878. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 2:31:03 PM Later that night around midnight, long after beau pere and belle mere retired, clement and I were up because of the jet lag, and my brother-in-law, pierre, comes out, yawning and proceeds to raid the kitchen, explaining to me that he was still hungry. The sad thing is I hadn't even eaten anything. Imagine if I had? 1879. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 2:32:49 PM That's very funny, thoughtful. 1880. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 2:48:09 PM and, obviously the night of the potato famine was an emotional moment and I found my belle-mere to be so cruel with that indifferent 'pooooof' that I expected an outpouring of sympathy. 1881. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 3:02:01 PM Marj, you asked me about baby issues, and whether Air France was baby friendly and all that. (and yes, little marj in his Yankee hat, is adorable but all you need now is a beret) 1882. Webfeet - 7/25/2001 3:19:41 PM One amusing daytrip frenchcat and I took was to see Chateau Lacoste, the marquis de Sade's family home in the Luberon. Frenchcat was skeptical, but I wanted to go thinking it would be an unusual little sideshow or something. 1883. thoughtful - 7/25/2001 3:26:36 PM The brothers out to dinner with a check on the table, truly an unusual circumstance as most times the only restaurants visited would be those with a coupon (unless Burger King is running its 99 cent special...which still requires the necessary haggling to make sure the senior discount is applied on top of the sale price). Most times, the "restaurant" is one of those cafeteria style steak houses which results in a most hilarious race to the cashier, the first one getting there ensuring he only pays for himself. 1884. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 5:55:14 PM Oh, thanks for the baby travel info Webbie. 1885. ElliottRW - 7/25/2001 6:00:40 PM I have been lurking here enjoying your posts, Webfoot; you have a delightful style. 1886. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 6:09:22 PM Loved your stories. 1887. alistairconnor - 7/25/2001 6:40:03 PM Message # 1866 Oddly enough, our kids often get sick on that same stretch. It's when the 15 miles of winding hill roads are finally over : long flat straight stretches paradoxically seem to set them off. 1888. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 6:45:56 PM AC, 1889. marjoribanks - 7/25/2001 6:46:22 PM I think it's actually an IATA rule. 1890. Jenerator - 7/25/2001 7:08:02 PM Webfeet, 1891. Absensia - 7/25/2001 7:33:52 PM Jen, 1892. Jenerator - 7/25/2001 9:48:03 PM Hi Absensia! 1893. alistairconnor - 7/26/2001 5:35:57 AM Message # 1888 Marj, that can't be right. The only time in my life I've flown business class (I don't fly very much) was coming back from Rome with wife and Louise, then about 2 and a half. 1894. marjoribanks - 7/26/2001 7:49:09 AM AC, it's a rule on B.A. and Air India, the two airlines I most use and been upgraded on most. 1895. Webfeet - 7/26/2001 8:31:13 AM Marj, this is uncanny. What you describe is not only hilarious but essentially sums up my food plight, though the details are somewhat different: I, too, resorted to nicking some of my baby's food! How pathetic is that? And, I too, feel horribly uncomfortable in someone else's kitchen and was embarrassed, totally gené at having to open up the frigo mid-day to grab a furtive piece of saucisson or something. 1896. Webfeet - 7/26/2001 8:42:52 AM Jen, there were no hollow cheeks as alistair can attest. (I love them! They fed me fish! It was so great to have a normal portion!) 1897. thoughtful - 7/26/2001 8:46:11 AM As for the food, Webfeet, it's clear that your mistake was to marry into the bourgeoisie, instead of choosing a boy of peasant stock. 1898. Webfeet - 7/26/2001 8:47:21 AM Thanks, Elliot. Happy to entertain, and it's also very therapeutic. 1899. Webfeet - 7/26/2001 8:53:49 AM I think i would rather have had shabby surroudnings at one point and a plate full of food. 1900. marjoribanks - 7/26/2001 9:04:34 AM Well, webbie, at least you can take solace in the fact that it's not personal, but a habitual problem. I'm surprised the kids haven't brought it up. 1901. marjoribanks - 7/26/2001 9:08:17 AM Your stuff on the French 'poof', the out-turned lips etc. is so on point that I had to shudder even while laughing. It's one of those absolutely impenetrable, unassailable, cultural traits. One can only, no matter how strong, feel inadequate when that gesture is proffered. I can imagine it must be worse when it is with in-laws, especially when you have had the audacity to not only steal their son, but to pollute him with foreign ways and secret him abroad. 1902. alistairconnor - 7/26/2001 9:27:37 AM Luckily I married into the petit-bourgeoisie, who, while not extravagant, make a point of ensuring that there is enough to eat and plenty to drink. But will not force-feed you like the lower orders will. 1903. Webfeet - 7/26/2001 9:34:00 AM It's like a stun-gun, there is nothing you can do that will be received with any seriousness. 1904. marjoribanks - 7/26/2001 9:53:23 AM Webbie, 1905. stostosto - 7/26/2001 10:37:57 AM Webfeet 1906. thoughtful - 7/26/2001 10:46:43 AM But will not force-feed you like the lower orders will. 1907. thoughtful - 7/26/2001 10:53:01 AM webbie, your tale has solved a mystery which has baffled scientists for years...how the french manage to cook all those high-fat dishes, yet stay so slim and keep their rate of heart attacks low...it isn't the chemicals in the red wine...it is the pique-nique technique. C'est manifique! 1908. Jenerator - 7/27/2001 10:27:29 AM Another plug for Dallas... 1909. JudithAtHome - 7/27/2001 10:54:22 AM It is also choked with advertising from dozens of sponsors...but that is not a thing unique to Dallas; every sports arena in the nation is a shill for product. It's the American way...(no pun intended for the new arean, which really IS something!) 1910. Jenerator - 7/27/2001 12:53:33 PM Corporate sponsorship is what made it happen. 1911. JudithAtHome - 7/27/2001 1:18:48 PM Pride goeth before a fall, Jen. They may well do it...someone will, im any case. The latest thing always becomes passé; it's the way of the world. 1912. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:05:13 AM Hokay, in the wildly popular continuing photo-series on What the Family Marjoribanks Did Last Weekend, I offer you this past Saturday. 1913. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:09:52 AM The biggest attraction for me at the market is the greens. I'm far from being militant about organic food, but the quality and fridge-life of the stuff available at the Greenmarket is just incomparably better than even at our superior supermarket. Great stuff, a vast array, freshly picked, corn cut the same morning, beautiful heirloom tomatoes. It's just unbeatable. 1914. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:11:43 AM 1915. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:14:22 AM This dude, camera shy but effusively friendly and informative, sells us wildflower honey for my son's porridge. 1916. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:19:26 AM Great fruit, obviously only when in season. 1917. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:21:30 AM This being an organic market, you get your whole slew of craftsmen/farmers, many extremely colorful. This couple is a representative example. 1918. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:25:37 AM But it's not all hippies. There are lots of serious and prosperous farmers there now, many who sell in large quantities to the City's best restaurants. There is also this guy, who is a recent addition. 1919. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:26:51 AM That, amigos, is the sum of the Saturday morning pictures. In a bit, What the Family Marjoribanks Did in The Afternoon. 1920. thoughtful - 7/31/2001 11:38:01 AM Marj, nice shots, but the guy in that last one sure looks Amish...do you suppose he got that stuff into the city by horse-drawn carriage? (I can see the toll takers on the bridge now! Unless they have e-z pass for horses!) 1921. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 11:44:46 AM Good question. I don't know the answer. Maybe he's a rebel Mennonite. 1922. Webfeet - 7/31/2001 12:11:22 PM Is that year round, marj? The Greenmarket people also set up shop in JH near our park every weekend, from July to mid-November. It's on a smaller scale, six booths or so, but they supposedly have added more stands this summer, we haven't taken a look yet. 1923. Webfeet - 7/31/2001 12:23:48 PM Sto, couldn't agree more that the food is top notch in france which is why it was all the more peinible to fait pique nique with BM on the enforced regime from hell. 1924. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 12:30:30 PM Webbie, 1925. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 12:32:04 PM I hate the Hamptons with a passion. I'd rather do almost anything than spend time in that offensively vulgar area. 1926. Jenerator - 7/31/2001 12:33:25 PM Canteloupe and lettuce?? 1927. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 12:45:25 PM One of the best things right now at the Greenmarket is that fresh-picked corn. The place we buy it from pledges that it's picked that same morning. It's great stuff, not that over-sweet GM corn you get in most supermarkets. 1928. stostosto - 7/31/2001 12:50:08 PM Webf 1929. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:13:02 PM Interesting Palais, Sto. The account reminds me of a church I saw high in the mountains of Venezuela that was built stone-by-stone by a man who hauled each one up from the coast on his donkey's back. Impressive structure, if only because of the labour and years involved. 1930. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:16:49 PM On any given weekend, there are literally scores of things going on in the Park. besides the concerts, lots of musicians set up and play in the open air. There's African drumming near the fountain, this famous guitarist who plays every summer next to the Meer, and many others. 1931. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:18:50 PM And a few steps away, there was a surprsingly busy Burmese festival happening. So, we slurped some noodles and put away some shockingly spicy soup while watching a cultural pageant. 1932. Jenerator - 7/31/2001 1:20:11 PM Marj, 1933. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:20:47 PM Usually, we crash out in Sheep's Meadow to eat the picnic. But the noodles sustained us and we pressed on, pausing only for this photograph- 1934. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:26:58 PM Jenerator, I don't like microwaved corn. It dries out a bit too much, even with the wrapper, even when you wet it. 1935. Jenerator - 7/31/2001 1:33:17 PM You must have an incredibly strong microwave, because it's never turned out too dry for me. 1936. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:35:20 PM Almost forgot the final shot. 1937. sakonige - 7/31/2001 1:42:54 PM 1938. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:44:56 PM So defensive, so protective, Sak. 1939. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 1:45:13 PM Great weekend, Banks, and really good pictures...I loved the Imagine one. Very nice... 1940. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 1:47:35 PM Thanks Judith. I was once again inspired (and competitively stirred) by Zan's feeling Grand Rapids photographs. 1941. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 1:54:09 PM You do great work with it, nonetheless...the radish picture was very artful, and the aforementioned Imagine photo. You and Joe both have a good eye for picture worthy views. 1942. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 1:54:33 PM This one's for 1943. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 1:54:58 PM ME....my birth year! 1944. PelleNilsson - 7/31/2001 2:28:47 PM And mine too. Clever Judith. 1945. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 2:30:48 PM What fogeys. 1946. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 2:39:58 PM Ah callow youth! 1947. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 2:46:44 PM callow youth 1948. PelleNilsson - 7/31/2001 2:55:36 PM marj 1949. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 2:57:34 PM Really? How very odd. 1950. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 2:59:17 PM They work fine for me... 1951. PelleNilsson - 7/31/2001 3:02:00 PM No. I'm sure it's a local problem. They may show up tomorrow. 1952. marjoribanks - 7/31/2001 3:04:14 PM Ah. 1953. Webfeet - 7/31/2001 6:04:27 PM Sto, I think you've convinced me that it's time we tour other areas, such as the Ardèche, and stop mooching (if you can call it that) off my in-laws in Aix. 1954. Webfeet - 7/31/2001 6:05:50 PM Killer cute, marj. Tough, tough competition for a certain frenchman. 1955. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 6:19:36 PM Bring it on, Webbie...Texas can take it! 1956. stostosto - 7/31/2001 6:25:37 PM Pieds Ouèbbe: 1957. ycmeehan - 7/31/2001 6:52:47 PM stostosto, Webfeet, 1958. JudithAtHome - 7/31/2001 6:57:12 PM I know what everything up to the chant des cigales is... 1959. stostosto - 7/31/2001 7:06:03 PM Judith: 1960. stostosto - 7/31/2001 7:10:43 PM ycmeehan 1961. Shannon - 8/1/2001 12:02:31 AM My kids on the beach in Destin, FL: 1962. Shannon - 8/1/2001 12:05:39 AM Here's a shot of the water. The 2 figures in the middle are my husband and son. Sadly, the water wasn't this clear at the end of our stay because of a minor storm that came through. 1963. Shannon - 8/1/2001 12:07:08 AM The view from our condo: 1964. ycmeehan - 8/1/2001 6:25:52 AM Stostosto, 1965. thoughtful - 8/1/2001 8:39:22 AM Nice shots Shannon. The picture of daughter reminds me of one my folks have of me when I was 3 on our visit to FL....blond little girl with bangs. Only difference is I was topless (and the pic was B&W). I still recall asking at the time why it was OK for me to be topless and not my Mom. 1966. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 8:44:18 AM Investigator Friendly and girls. Notice the black eyes on IF. 1967. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 8:45:53 AM He'd kill me if he knew I posted this one. Sleeping with Groucho.... 1968. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 8:47:21 AM Fang! at Ocean City, on a cig playstructure made of wood. They're all up and downt the beach in front of the boardwalk - this one is a boat. 1969. JudithAtHome - 8/1/2001 9:11:50 AM Those shots aren't showing up, Adrianne. 1970. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 9:12:20 AM 1971. iiibbb - 8/1/2001 9:18:31 AM I was in DC this weekend and spend the day visiting all the memorials including some of the ones I'd never seen before like the Vietnam memorial, the statue for women in service, Korean memorial, and the new FDR memorial. I also hit the classics like Licoln and Jefferson. 1972. Webfeet - 8/1/2001 9:27:22 AM YCmeehan- Don't forget the tapinade! Although I am fond of Aix, sometimes I feel like it's a stage set created just for American tourists, especially the outdoor markets near the palais de justice where the sprigs of lavande, abricots and savon de marseille pile up the stands. I have been there so many times that perhaps I have a touch of the cynique in me, and of course I shouldn't taint your memory so because Provence is as enchanting as you describe. 1973. iiibbb - 8/1/2001 9:28:07 AM 1974. Webfeet - 8/1/2001 9:29:44 AM Yet some Americans are definetley guilty of indulging in what beau pere (who wrote a book on Pont du Gard) calls snobbisme. one such person is the wife of one of his American colleagues who enrolled in a course on Provençal culture and history at the université d'aix-marseille. This was like the most ridiculous thing he ever heard of. It's like, well, Provençal culture and history is important because white upper middle class tourists believe it is! So there! I think that's what Reichl balked at, even though, on another level it's like there is nothing wrong with studying provençal culture. After all, what would that make me, with my master's in French studies? A total dilettante that's what! 1975. iiibbb - 8/1/2001 9:34:39 AM My last stop was the Jefferson memorial. Once again, my faith in the man was renued. I read the words and contemplated on all his detractors as of late. 1976. iiibbb - 8/1/2001 9:38:59 AM Anyway... I wasn't expecting to make the tour that I did... it was impromtu. 1977. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 10:13:57 AM 1978. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 10:14:22 AM 1979. JudithAtHome - 8/1/2001 10:16:40 AM Yes!! Cute! 1980. PelleNilsson - 8/1/2001 10:17:49 AM yc 1981. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 10:17:50 AM 1982. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 10:20:03 AM 1983. Adrianne - 8/1/2001 10:22:05 AM Fang! at Ocean City: 1984. marjoribanks - 8/1/2001 10:24:13 AM I love the FDR memorial. It's tastefully done, and extremely impressive without being monumental. The location is great too. In my view, it and the Vietnam memorial are the two most elegant such memorials in D.C. 1985. marjoribanks - 8/1/2001 10:25:44 AM Nice kiddie photos, everyone. 1986. joezan - 8/3/2001 11:54:56 PM Very nice photos, all. 1987. joezan - 8/4/2001 12:09:25 AM Tuesday was Kids Day at Mulligan's Hollow. It was 95º, and swampy. My armpits were growing moss. But... 1988. joezan - 8/4/2001 12:09:35 AM Tuesday was Kids Day at Mulligan's Hollow. It was 95º, and swampy. My armpits were growing moss. But... 1989. joezan - 8/4/2001 12:32:15 AM OOooops! Sorry 'bout that. 1990. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 12:41:05 AM Joezan: 1991. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:25:07 AM Seadate here. Posting on Judith's Radio Shack contraption 'cause we're partying and her freakin' PC won't let me open another browser and come into the Mote under my GOD given name@!!!!!! 1992. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:25:44 AM Speolots? 1993. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:26:45 AM As you can see. Seadate has had lots to drink tonight...as have we all. 1994. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:28:03 AM seadate 1995. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:28:59 AM seadate 1996. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:29:50 AM This is ludicrous...and notice who is spelling correctly!! 1997. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:30:27 AM But! 1998. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:30:42 AM I want... 1999. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:30:55 AM The... ...seadteb 2001. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:31:14 AM The... 2002. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:32:43 AM seadate 2003. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:34:04 AM seadate 2004. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:34:14 AM . 2005. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:34:56 AM 'Night. 2006. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:37:14 AM seadate 2007. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:38:04 AM ...In the guest room, alone, for seadate. 2008. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2001 1:39:33 AM seadate 2009. JudithAtHome - 8/5/2001 10:06:18 PM seadate here ..... 2010. Jenerator - 8/6/2001 10:39:59 AM So, arky got everyone drunk? 2011. JudithAtHome - 8/6/2001 11:02:33 AM No one's arm was twisted, believe me. 2012. PsychProf - 8/6/2001 11:06:13 AM Neat posts guys. 2013. Jenerator - 8/6/2001 11:17:39 AM Well, I'm not surprised actually. 2014. arkymalarky - 8/6/2001 11:35:41 AM Hey, that was on Judith's computer in your dear state of Texas, Jen. That's what happens--and would in AR too, I bet--when there's one keyboard and two people on it who want a millennial! 2015. JudithAtHome - 8/6/2001 12:09:43 PM It surely was...it was like a class reunion and a family reunion all rolled in to one with none of the trauma of either. It was glorious fun, and even tho we didn't grow up with these people, we could have by the end of the weekend. 2016. arkymalarky - 8/6/2001 12:14:36 PM "...none of the trauma of either." Hahaha! I love that! 2017. ycmeehan - 8/6/2001 8:10:25 PM Webbfeet, 2018. ycmeehan - 8/6/2001 8:19:17 PM Webfeet, 2019. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:14:59 PM Ok, I know youse were all dying to see the rest of the Coast Guard Festival photos. 2020. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:26:23 PM Beginning 3 days before the parade, anyone is allowed to stake out a spot in the grass on the street side of the sidewalks - which is a great source of irritation for many. It used to be 5 days, but the city finally changed the ordinance last year. 2021. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:29:53 PM ...more party houses: 2022. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:38:55 PM 2023. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:45:36 PM 2024. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:49:26 PM ...continued: 2025. joezan - 8/6/2001 10:57:44 PM As always, the whole thing ended with a bang: 2026. joezan - 8/6/2001 11:11:44 PM One more...from the local paper. 2027. Frankster - 8/7/2001 1:21:40 AM Beautiful pics, Joe!... 2028. Frankster - 8/7/2001 1:23:46 AM Continued: 2029. Frankster - 8/7/2001 1:25:17 AM Continued: 2030. Frankster - 8/7/2001 1:32:47 AM Continued: 2031. Frankster - 8/7/2001 1:35:34 AM Continued: 2032. arkymalarky - 8/7/2001 10:06:26 AM Hahaha! Great images, Frank. You captured the pace and mood perfectly. I'm just now beginning to feel sort of like I'm back from Oz. Today is going to be my normalizing day. 2033. marjoribanks - 8/7/2001 11:00:58 AM Hmm. Nice photos and stories. That first firework shot is a winner, Zan. 2034. marjoribanks - 8/7/2001 11:03:19 AM 2035. marjoribanks - 8/7/2001 11:04:07 AM 2036. JudithAtHome - 8/7/2001 11:24:12 AM Frank: 2037. Frankster - 8/7/2001 12:27:50 PM ... I'm going to have to get me a digital camera. See what you did, Joe and Marjori! 2038. joezan - 8/8/2001 7:58:02 AM Thanks, Frank! 2039. janjon - 8/8/2001 1:48:33 PM nope - the whole Island never looked like that. Central Park is a totally manmade concoction - including the hills and even the placement of many of the boulders. It was the largest public works project the country had ever seen and, surprise of surprise, it went way over budget and over time. (more than a few dollars got, um, diverted, too.) 2040. MaxMacks - 8/8/2001 2:17:40 PM Nice photos marjo... what janjon said. 2041. MaxMacks - 8/8/2001 3:53:58 PM Do any Moties live in New Mexico , or have lived 2042. joezan - 8/8/2001 11:08:44 PM Arky: 2043. Jenerator - 8/8/2001 11:38:21 PM Joe, 2044. HollyW - 8/8/2001 11:54:03 PM I'm going to Asheville, North Carolina next month. Anyone know the area? We are driving down and back, from Massachusetts (with a toddler, so we have a few limits going on, here). 2045. HollyW - 8/8/2001 11:55:54 PM Let me elaborate--we are going to a wedding, and I don't know the area at all, the New Jersey Turnpike being about as south as I've driven, in general... 2046. Shannon - 8/9/2001 12:01:44 AM You'll know you're in the south when you start seeing Waffle House signs. That should be somewhere in Virginia. 2047. grannypatsy - 8/9/2001 3:09:36 AM hOLLY, DO YOU HAVE TIME TO GO SOUTH ON THE BLUE RIDGE HIGHWAYY? 2048. grannypatsy - 8/9/2001 3:17:49 AM Max,Well yes, I was born in Santa Fe, Spent most of my summers in the Sangre de Cristo mountains.. returned many summers for the Opera and or fllyfishing. What would you like to know? I can't quite readd the address you posted; I'm prolph@nindspring.com 2049. Webfeet - 8/9/2001 8:58:07 AM hey, thanks jen. I hadn't seen that one. looking forward to seeing me love wild-eyed and inflamed with passion. 2050. Webfeet - 8/9/2001 9:17:42 AM YCmeehan 2051. Webfeet - 8/9/2001 9:18:03 AM And now they are at Bloomingdales where every psycho suburban shopaholic can have them. I just looked at themand said, "oh shit." I even overstocked so they would last me until my next visit. And Im sure there is no on-site hair specialist. Just some dipshit in a frock coming over from the Lancome counter. "Here sweetie, you wanna buy one of those?" 2052. thoughtful - 8/9/2001 9:20:31 AM Holly, Hubby and I went to Asheville about 22 years ago, so I'm sure it's much changed since then. We actually went to Hickory to buy furniture for our house having only been married the year earlier and spent that year living with the town's largest hallway -- otherwise known as the living room. Hubby had work to do in Roanoke VA so that was our stopover. After visiting showrooms and playing with quadrille paper, cutting out little squares for chairs, dressers, etc. we ordered furniture for LR, DR, and MBR. Then headed off to Asheville to see Biltmore. A most incredible mansion. It's the largest private home in the US and I really enjoyed it far more than most of the other mansions we've seen as the place is so well done. (I do admit the 50' high ceiling in the dining room is a bit over the top.) 2053. thoughtful - 8/9/2001 9:28:04 AM The Blue Ridge Parkway is a wonderful way to get home. The Great Smoky Mountain park, I believe is the most visited nat'l park in the country. As I recall though we were stunned by the devastation driving through...the worms had hit--can't remember if it was inch worms or gypsy moths-- but beautiful vistas full of trees as bare as winter. Very disconcerting. If you saw the Last of the Mohicans, that was filmed in the Great Smokies. As we went there, we hit a touch of TN and were amazed at the contrast. Rundown shacks and trailers all around the towns...but in the center of town is the most beautiful church. We knew we were in the rural south for sure. Also had some of the best BBQ ever in NC (though I'm sure plenty will shoot me down for even suggesting that.) Also gotta eat in a dinner for breakfast...waitresses calling you "hon" and humungous breakfasts (don't as the fat calories) for a song. 2054. thoughtful - 8/9/2001 9:29:17 AM diner not dinner. Sheesh. 2055. thoughtful - 8/9/2001 9:31:51 AM don't *ask* the fat calories.....slippy fingers today, I guess. 2056. JudithAtHome - 8/9/2001 9:32:42 AM WEbbie: 2057. JudithAtHome - 8/9/2001 9:36:17 AM thoughtful: 2058. thoughtful - 8/9/2001 9:50:04 AM Sounds like you been there, done that, hon. 2059. thoughtful - 8/9/2001 9:57:56 AM We had a most memorable dinner in Hickory...the town was dry at the time so you had to BYOB. Well there was a big bash going on in the restaurant for some retiring teacher who'd taught the last 7 generations of Hickorians so everyone including the wait staff was there....the rest of the dining room was being covered by someone's younger brother who'd never eaten at a place classier than McDonalds and had no idea how to serve anything. He came back about 3 times just over the booze, having no idea how a drink was mixed -- do you want ice? How far should I fill the glass? What kind of glass should I use? He rushed the food to us and left so quickly we had to keep calling him back for the missing knife, etc. He let out an audible sigh when he finished serving us, so thankful that he survived it. Then he disappeared. 2060. Jenerator - 8/9/2001 11:47:03 AM Webfeet, 2061. marjoribanks - 8/9/2001 11:55:58 AM There is some kind of anti-wrinkle cream that pregnant women are supposed to smear on themselves during and after pregnancy to ensure minimal stretch marks. 2062. marjoribanks - 8/9/2001 11:57:57 AM Clarks shoes, for men anyway, have always been available in certain US stores, like Brooks Brothers. 2063. JudithAtHome - 8/9/2001 12:07:14 PM Hate to burst your relatives bubble, Banks, but any good lubricating cream applied religiously will deter stretch marks. From cocoa butter to Cera DiCupa, any thick, gooey cream will do the trick. The secret is to keep the skin supple. 2064. marjoribanks - 8/9/2001 12:09:52 PM Well, what do I know other than this stuff is extremely highly prized by the coven of in-laws and they know their creams as well as it is possible to know them. 2065. JudithAtHome - 8/9/2001 12:25:48 PM Sure, we all have our faves. I was just pointing out even olive oil would do the same thing... 2066. Jenerator - 8/9/2001 1:00:09 PM Any dermatologist will tell you that strech marks are due to dehydration in the skin; which is caused by a genetic predisposition, lack of water intake and/or poor moisturizing habits. 2067. MaxMacks - 8/9/2001 1:10:41 PM Holly , You Can't Go Home Again, but you can go to Ashville. 2068. MaxMacks - 8/9/2001 1:12:57 PM Thanks granny , for your 2047 2069. grannypatsy - 8/9/2001 3:13:04 PM Max, I may have sent you an email. 2070. ycmeehan - 8/9/2001 3:43:15 PM Webfeet, 2071. ycmeehan - 8/9/2001 3:46:17 PM I must be the one in this country who receives fougasse and sachets de lavande in the same package. 2072. Webfeet - 8/9/2001 4:05:34 PM c'est trop vrai... meme si on se marie avec un français. Mais je te remercie pour avoir pardonné tous mes pretensions! 2073. Webfeet - 8/9/2001 4:09:39 PM Marj, we'll just have to take their word for it, although I tend to think that all those creams are really the same. It's what you want to believe. 2074. Jenerator - 8/9/2001 6:58:35 PM Webfeet, please look here for Valmont. 2075. HollyW - 8/9/2001 9:52:03 PM Asheville sounds like it'll be enjoyable. I'm kind of excited about it now. Mostly I'd been thinking, "Oh God, that's how many hours in the car with a toddler?" 2076. thoughtful - 8/10/2001 9:12:20 AM Don't know if toddler is too young to enjoy Crystal Caves...not spectacular but fun none the less for children...it's not far off the highway in VA. But we don't have children, so I'm far from expert at what toddlers will and won't tolerate, and we don't stop at the made for kids places so I really can't help you out too much with that stuff. 2077. theDiva - 8/10/2001 9:43:18 AM ooohhhhhhhh....Norf Caolina barbycue. 2078. Webfeet - 8/10/2001 6:55:19 PM jen, you're too, too funny. What an orgy of photos, and fans, fans fans. how this man resonates with the female unconscious is a phenomenon. ANd he's such an accomplished performer. I don't know how he manages to show such restraint and yet literally 'smolder' --as he is so often described--with such intensity. 2079. Jenerator - 8/11/2001 10:35:24 AM Webfeet, 2080. lemwalker - 8/21/2001 6:48:00 PM Just returned from visit to family homeland in Pennsylvania. Spent day in Chicago. Was impressed. 2081. Webfeet - 8/30/2001 6:34:09 PM "take a walk back in time and enjoy the victorian charms of Block Island...." 2082. arkymalarky - 9/2/2001 12:49:11 PM 2083. Absensia - 9/2/2001 1:31:11 PM Thanks for the site, Arky...it is beautiful country! I've never seen it before. 2084. PelleNilsson - 9/2/2001 1:48:02 PM What is a grist mill? 2085. Absensia - 9/2/2001 2:41:03 PM Pelle 2086. arkymalarky - 9/2/2001 3:09:59 PM AR is a very nice and generally inexpensive and relatively uncrowded place to vacation in spring and fall. There's also a lot more going on and fun stuff to do those times of year than people may realize. 2087. PelleNilsson - 9/2/2001 3:24:48 PM OK, so a grist mill grinds grain. New question: what does "grist" mean? 2088. Absensia - 9/2/2001 3:30:58 PM grist = grain or a batch of grain for grinding. 2089. Absensia - 9/2/2001 3:38:14 PM Arky, 2090. PelleNilsson - 9/2/2001 3:54:31 PM No trick. At first I thought grist was some kind of measure but now I understand that it is probably a generic name for whatever is brought to the mill to be ground, be it grain or corn or whatever. 2091. Absensia - 9/2/2001 4:16:42 PM Interesting information. Sorry if I unjustly suspected you. I think it's the hat you wear. (g) 2092. PelleNilsson - 9/2/2001 4:27:14 PM Hahaha! Good night from Stockholm. I have to be up exceedingly early tomorrow to meet somebody at the airport. 2093. arkymalarky - 9/2/2001 11:00:13 PM Abs, 2094. Shannon - 9/2/2001 11:19:23 PM Arkansas is very pretty. I want to do some long weekend trips there myself. 2095. Absensia - 9/2/2001 11:23:18 PM Arky, 2096. Jenerator - 9/3/2001 10:23:19 AM Seattle is a great place and Washington State is one of my favorite places. 2097. arkymalarky - 9/3/2001 10:26:07 AM Abs, 2098. arkymalarky - 9/3/2001 10:28:07 AM One of these days I'd love to go west/northwest. Bob and I have talked about doing it from the family cabin in CO one year. It'd have to be when we had a pretty free summer and plenty of money--a combination that has never occurred yet. 2099. Frankster - 9/4/2001 4:26:11 PM Arky, 2100. JudithAtHome - 9/4/2001 4:28:49 PM Franque: 2101. Absensia - 9/4/2001 4:32:25 PM Arky, 2102. arkymalarky - 9/4/2001 8:16:48 PM Thanks, Frank and Abs! I would love to, and intend to one of these days hopefully not too far in the future. 2103. mizphys - 9/19/2001 3:37:51 PM I've just booked a 4-night trip to Disneyland Paris for myself, the Mr., and our 12- and 14-year-old kids. Any advice on what to do/see there? The kids have never even been to Disney in the US. It's pretty expensive, but we're using the money left to us by my father-in-law who died in January, a fitting way to celebrate the life of a very good man. 2104. marjoribanks - 9/19/2001 3:42:44 PM Stop in Paris for two days.It'll be about 8000 times more interesting and rewarding (for all) than EuroDisney. 2105. judithathome - 9/19/2001 3:55:27 PM There are lots of interesting things for kids in Paris...be sure to visit the Pompidou(?) Center where there is a wonderfully whimsical fountain and pond out front with fanciful creatures moving, turning, and floating on the water. 2106. PelleNilsson - 9/19/2001 4:01:41 PM I second Pompidou. You will either love the building or freak out when you see it. I haven't been there for a long time but there used to be some very good street performers. Better than those in Covent Garden if you have seen them. 2107. judithathome - 9/19/2001 4:05:12 PM Also stroll around in the evenings..in the big squares around town, lots of street theatre going on, as Pelle says. And eat cheaply during the day by going to the shops and buying bread and cheese and fruit and have a picnic in the park. There's always a park... 2108. janjon - 9/19/2001 4:09:14 PM the street performers at Pompidou are paid to be there, by the gov't. 2109. mizphys - 9/19/2001 4:09:53 PM Pompidou sounds cool. 2110. marjoribanks - 9/19/2001 4:12:18 PM mizphys, 2111. judithathome - 9/19/2001 4:12:36 PM I've not been there in ages but I seriously doubt the bread has declined in quality! 2112. Wombat - 9/19/2001 4:14:22 PM Why would anyone go to France to go to Disneyland? Isn't Florida cheaper? 2113. Jenerator - 9/19/2001 4:15:25 PM What about the Eiffel Tower?? 2114. mizphys - 9/19/2001 4:15:25 PM OK, I'm writing this down. Pompidou Center and Poilane for bread... 2115. mizphys - 9/19/2001 4:16:20 PM Wombat: France is cheaper when you live in the UK! 2116. PelleNilsson - 9/19/2001 4:17:45 PM Wombat 2117. Wombat - 9/19/2001 4:18:51 PM Mizphyz: 2118. Wombat - 9/19/2001 4:20:00 PM Pelle: 2119. janjon - 9/19/2001 4:21:41 PM Take them on one of the boat trips on the Seine. Preferably just at dusk so they can see the city AND the lights on Notre Dame, etc. Especially good after a long day walking around. (Don't sign up for one of the dinner tours. Big mistake. Expensive and not good.) 2120. Wombat - 9/19/2001 4:25:05 PM Janj: 2121. Wombat - 9/19/2001 4:26:08 PM Saint Chapelle's stained glass is so beautiful as to be other-worldly. 2122. mizphys - 9/19/2001 4:28:04 PM Well, thanks for the advice, folks. I know we can't see everything on this sort trip, but I DO plan to go back while we're living over here. Oh, there are just SO many places to see, and only 2 more years... 2123. Wombat - 9/19/2001 4:29:18 PM MizPhyz: 2124. judithathome - 9/19/2001 4:32:44 PM Believe me, you'll go back to Paris...I'd lay odds on it. 2125. janjon - 9/19/2001 4:39:43 PM wombat - well, DeGaulle was indeed "special". 2126. ScottLoar - 9/19/2001 4:41:52 PM DeGaulle when young would recite on comments to his own nose the famous retort by Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac. He had it memorized for just such occasions. 2127. pseudoerasmus - 9/19/2001 4:43:53 PM My favourite Cyrano witticism: 2128. RickNelson - 9/22/2001 3:53:09 PM Any help will be greatly appreciated. 2129. Absensia - 9/22/2001 3:57:33 PM She is in highschool? Then, I agree. I would let her go. Is your wife dead set against it because of what has just happened or was she before hand? 2130. Absensia - 9/22/2001 4:00:45 PM Rick, I think your concerns are understandable, but this is a wonderful chance for her. If things get worse, then, I would think it best for her not to go. Right now, I would suspect traveling is safer than usual. No doubt safer than driving a car, etc. If it was my son, I wouldn't be worried at all, now. But he's 24! But I know I would have been worried 10 yrs ago, just because I am a parent, but would have let him go. 2131. PelleNilsson - 9/22/2001 4:05:04 PM Let her travel Rick. I would say that air travel is safer now than before the attacks becuse security has been stepped up. Italy is a nice country and safe. There haven't been any terror attacks that I'm aware of for at least twenty years when the Red Brigades were active. A trip like that could be important for your daughter's development. 2132. robertjayb - 9/22/2001 4:05:05 PM Let the girl go, of course. 2133. labwabbit - 9/22/2001 4:10:12 PM We all die...we all live but once. 2134. arkymalarky - 9/22/2001 4:54:51 PM Rick, 2135. Absensia - 9/22/2001 6:00:39 PM Rick and Arky, 2136. arkymalarky - 9/22/2001 6:09:04 PM She's got one, but I didn't think ones here could be used in Europe. We will definitely keep her in reach by whatever means. The Long Arm of Mama is hard to avoid. 2137. Absensia - 9/22/2001 6:11:30 PM Sure..you have to sign up for international calls...mine has it...and you can reach almost any part of the world. I have voice stream, but may switch if they don't gert their act together. 2138. arkymalarky - 9/22/2001 6:20:48 PM I'll look into that when the time comes. Thanks! 2139. Absensia - 9/22/2001 6:25:37 PM well...you might want to inquire now...when I got mine they said my request would not go into effect for 30 days...but I got that straightened out right away. Just don't tell her! : ) 2140. arkymalarky - 9/22/2001 6:30:28 PM Ahh, Ok. 2141. SnowOwl - 9/22/2001 7:04:30 PM Rick, 2142. ScottLoar - 9/22/2001 7:28:45 PM RickNelson, no doubt about it, your daughter should go and it will prove to be one of the experiences of her lifetime exactly because she's young, impressionable, and eager to life. The doubts you and your wife have are understandable, but as to the benefits of this trip to your daughter there is no doubt. 2143. RickNelson - 9/22/2001 10:14:58 PM Thank you all, and I'm still open to advice. 2144. ScottLoar - 9/23/2001 12:57:02 AM I repeat, literally and figuratively let her go. 2145. ScottLoar - 9/23/2001 12:58:56 AM My daughter traveled from Taiwan to the US alone at 13, and I always find children as small as 10 travelling by themselves from one country to another without fear or difficulty. 2146. PelleNilsson - 9/23/2001 1:31:50 AM Regarding cellphones, you have to investigate carefully before you go ahead. The whole of Europe works on the GSM-system. Some operators in the US use it as well but I think the most widespread system over there is D-AMPS. There is also something called IC-95 or something similar. In addition I don't think the US GSM-system uses the same frequencies as Europe. I would be surprised to find that a standard US phone works in Europe. There are telephones, though, with dual band (two frequency bands) and dual mode (two systems). All the big manufacturers make them. 2147. Absensia - 9/23/2001 1:36:37 AM Good point, Pelle. I have a friend who was able to get, I think it was called Star pager and was able to call anywhere in the world and call from anywhere in the world. But, I think it was very costy. 2148. arkymalarky - 9/23/2001 12:58:51 PM That's what I thought I'd heard or read--that our cell phones weren't compatible. I'll look into all that, and see if I could do something temporary. That would be a good service--cell phone rental for overseas trips. 2149. PelleNilsson - 9/23/2001 2:42:56 PM arky 2150. arkymalarky - 9/23/2001 2:52:09 PM Will do. Thanks Pelle. 2151. mgleason - 9/23/2001 5:56:12 PM Rick, 2152. thoughtful - 9/24/2001 3:21:30 PM Talking to people who have travelled recently, I think the 20% estimate of the decline in air traffic is way short of the mark....people I talked to...certainly not a scientific sample...said the planes were flying at about 10% capacity. Yikes! Time to go to Vegas! Bargains galore I'm sure. 2153. PelleNilsson - 9/24/2001 3:46:52 PM I heard just now on BBC that five Broadway shows have closed down. 2154. judithathome - 9/24/2001 3:49:55 PM A couple of those were in trouble before this happened, Pelle. 2155. PelleNilsson - 9/24/2001 3:52:49 PM I agree. This is the time to fly. Security has never been better. 2156. thoughtful - 9/24/2001 4:21:02 PM Yeah, but pelle, the worry is better may not be good enough. I'm not afraid to fly...odds of my plane going down for any reason is very slim. I'm more concerned about the hassel at check-in, the delays, the risks of cancellations, etc. Flying wasn't a lot of fun before this thing happened. The only improvement is they say air traffic jams are significantly less. 2157. judithathome - 9/24/2001 4:28:40 PM Well, I'm hoping there are a few empty seats on my row when we go to Hawaii so I can put my feet up to help my knee. Selfish, I know, but practical if I want to fly for 6-8 hours and be able to walk once I arrive. 2158. thoughtful - 9/24/2001 5:11:08 PM not a bad place to get stuck Judith....enjoy! 2159. ScottLoar - 9/24/2001 5:58:28 PM The Hawaiian islands are notoriously unstable being - what? - several miles suspended on volcanic formations so that just that little bit of land peaks above the sea? Now I ask you, what would happen if the sea level were to suddenly rise, or the earth's crust shift, or the earth's core suddenly to spew to the surface? Yes, that's right, you'd have severe regrets and then where would be your little bit of paradise? Huh? 2160. judithathome - 9/24/2001 6:16:20 PM Oh hell, Scott, you don't have to use scare tactics on me because I have panic attacks all by myself just imagining how far out in the ocean we are and how long even the fastest plane would take to get there...it happens to me at least twice each time I go there. I'm talking full blown heart racing, sweat breaking, faint feeling panic that takes at least an hour to calm. 2161. judithathome - 9/24/2001 6:17:30 PM Fast plane meaning if something catastrophic occurred and help were to be attempted from afar. 2162. ScottLoar - 9/24/2001 7:11:15 PM Your consolation: I leave this Friday from Chicago for Sydney. 2163. judithathome - 9/24/2001 7:31:10 PM Say hello to Candi if you see her! 2164. HollyW - 10/1/2001 5:24:43 PM I'm a week back from my travels to North Carolina. 2165. HollyW - 10/1/2001 5:25:09 PM The big attraction there is a mansion rebuilt in the style of 1770--it was the governor's manse when New Bern was the NC capitol, when NC was still a colony. It burnt down, and its gardens were lost to weeds, but it was all redone in the 1950s (I think). Coming from New England, Colonial time crap, especially a 90% replica, impresses me not at all since I'd been quite saturated with it in childhood, but I wanted to see the gardens, so I bought a garden pass. It was just what my eyes and soul needed the week after 9/11--English gardens opening up to Wilderness gardens, winding paths and soothing expanses of grass, gates opening to views, and a Kitchen garden full of good smells like lemon balm. I had it almost all to myself, so I could sit on a bench and just feel and be quiet. 2166. HollyW - 10/1/2001 5:26:35 PM I'm flying from Logan to Los Angeles in early November, probably. 2167. stostosto - 10/1/2001 5:38:02 PM Last Monday I went to Tromsø in Norway. It's in the far North of that country, well North of the Polar Circle. In summer the sun shines 24 hours a day, in winter it doesn't rise at all. At this particular time of year there is no difference whatsoever in the daily sun time... 2168. Shannon - 10/1/2001 9:25:14 PM Message # 2164 2169. HollyW - 10/1/2001 11:30:54 PM I guess Biscuitville is definately where to go if the personal hygiene of your server is optional and if you are bound and determined to get those arteries clogged by forty. Waffle House is cool, though, I think. 2170. Absensia - 10/1/2001 11:38:06 PM Hey Sto, 2171. PelleNilsson - 10/13/2001 1:40:22 PM 2172. Webfeet - 10/19/2001 9:41:04 AM Both times, our servers were missing some important teeth. Is that the norm? The Mote | Mote Archive
More. More. Muster some more tales, please.
(I'm out of here for the day, but will return with much anticipation)
Yes, thoughtful, I did supplement Faire Pique Nique Nights with food for all that I bought with french francs that came out of my purse and took belle mere out to cla$$ee dinner as well as offered Gifts as all good people are supposed to do. A legitimate question on one hand given that there is always, as all good women know, The Other Side to The Story, a real joy killer on the other.
But no matter. I am still joyous. I am mistress once again of my own kitchen.
It occurred to me at that moment, at the cafe Verdun, in the week after Frenchcat's departure to NY when the deuxieme voyage de noces and gastronomic excursions dehors de la maison stopped, that I was, yes, deprived. And so I ordered a fabulous dinner of salmon with mousse st. jacques and ate no bread to keep from starving and reveled in the illicit, shameful indulgence of it all while at the sametime dreaded that my beau-pere, an archeology professor at the university, would pass me on his velo and turn his nose up in french disgust at my large american appetite.
Now, why didn't I invite them all to the restaurant? The answer is that my beau pere hates restaurants! Yes, a frenchman who is indifferent to food and to wine and only lives onthe ascetic pleasure drawn from his travail into roman agricultural methods and farming in paleozoic times. (Many times we invited them out for dinner, but they refused. Beau pere once drove us deliberately into rush hour traffic along La Corniche in Marseille just to prevent us from stopping at a cafe where he would be bored to death.)
But I was vindicated. I returned that night with memories of my happy, late afternoon secret feast to a spartan table of lettuce and a small portion of cold spinach tortellini that 4 people were expected to share. My brother-in-law was joining us. Now, I ate next to nothing and could once feign a delicate feminine appetite, the kind Katie Ford might approve of, munching on a few lettuce leaves and fending off offers of cold tortellini with the demure 'J'ai pas tres faim ce soir.'
Belle mere told me in a way that suggested that i was expected to find it outrageous that her other daughter-in-law, pierre's wife, actually packs him a home-made cake and aloaf of bread because she had the nerve to think that his own mother (belle mere) didn't feed him enough! I shook my head in disbelief. Wow, that is so shocking, belle-mere.
Oddly, it was never this bad last summer except when there were guests. I think her anti-cholesterol regime has gotten more intense, which is too bad because she is an excellent cook. I suppose expectations do run high when you're a tourist in France, but nevertheless, I can't make a meal out of bread.
No, I just am so not cheap that I got a little irked. Im sorry.
Those 'pooofs' can be, like, deadly. My beau pere makes them with a fart like noise, and shrugs his shoulders in a way that absolutely, positively as Mayle notes, makes any kind of retort unthinkable, even foolish. You cannot win.
You know, I really adore my in-laws. And, I adore the french. But there are these little moments of cultural conflict that are par for the course. I have them in my marriage all the time, and I have learned that it is suicide to fight back like a maddog, or even to fight back at all unless it is presented in an absolutely offhand way that in those rare, singular moments, manages to hit the right note in which frappe meets beau geste or something like that.
I carried clement on my back which is good for switching at airports and makes things a whole lot easier in general. When we flew home and switched at Roissy, I don't know how I would have survived with a stroller. 2 buses and three security checks later, not to mention countless escalators, i would have had a nervous breakdown. And make sure you jump to the front of the line when they call for boarding. They have to let you on first. First that is, after handicapped people.
The flight going there is easier because most flights to europe are scheduled at night as you know when they sleep, but going home is hell because it's mostly daytime. If you can get a night flight home, do it. It will spare you hours of roaming and chasing them on the plane. clement refused to sit still and finally the stewardesses practically told us off, to scram, because my little angel was so totally in their way, and would put up a raging, hurling fight when I tried to curb him.
Also, order baby food in advance with the airline if you choose to feed him that way. Clement was actually denied his own dinner on our flight. I think the hostess was evil, butit didn't matter since I brought along our own victuals. But it's just something to note. And try to bring along plenty of distractions, whatever they may be from lollipops to games. If it buys five minutes rest time, then it's worth it in my book.
When we arrived, there were huge tour buses parked below. It is one of those perched villages, but less dramatic than, say, Gordes. And, as we climbed our way up to the ruines, circling the same area fruitlessly, over and over in search of something, encountering the same tour group of southern american women on their way down, we realized the joke was on all of us. There was nothing to see! No signage, no inscription, not even Ye Olde Sexe Chamber with stirr-ups and handcuffs or something to indicate that the King of all Perverts slept here or any vestige at all of this madman--just ruines and a bunch of befuddled American tourists expecting to find like a kinky Disneyland en haut.
I was kind of hoping for a quiet little museum that would give some family history and more information on his political writing during the Revolution, but once at the top of the ruins, it became clear that Lacoste was not too proud of its most famous inhabitant and did its best to erase his tracks.
The only thing to do there is to have a beer on the terrace of a cafe and admire the view of the Luberon.
We've booked night flights both ways (transit Paris going, stopover on the way back), and even (rather hopefully) reserved a bassinet. I doubt our guy is going to fit, or stay put, but one can try. However, we have not booked that kiddie meal and will do so immediately. We also have one of those extra-flimsy Korean 20$ strollers precisely for travel purposes so I don't think it'll be a problem (plus there's two of us). I'm pretty excited, though there's the small matter of waiting out two months before we finally get aboard.
When I first started visiting the in-laws for lengthy stays I had related food issues. I come from a tradition of endless food and proffered service. Servants help, of course. But even in my own house, no guest can go two hours without being offered an appropriate delectable. The run of the kitchen is extended, but I can and will wait on you in a polite and decorous fashion.
The wife's family is large and disorganized, by comparison. Plus, they only eat one formal sit-down meal a day together (dinner) and you are expected to fend for yourself the rest of the time. Ma-in-law will cook you breakfast if you show up in the kitchen at 8:00 AM, never later.
Needless to say, I always manage to miss breakfast and then am stuck, ravening, until dinner. For some reason, related to my upbringing no doubt, I find it very uncomfortable to wade into someone else's fridge, especially when being watched by casual onlookers - and there are always those.
So, for a very long time, I'd claim that I was not hungry all day. Then, sneak out for an unpalatable British sandwich if I could or corner the wife with desperate pleas for food. She, rather coldly, usually found these pleas amusing rather than heartfelt and worthy of aid.
Anyway, after a heart-to-heart, I now have an ally in her. She accepts that she has to feed me chez in-laws or I will starve and pout about it. So, in good Indian fashion, my lunches are made and presented to me with fanfare. Though the onlookers heckle her (and me) we have arrived at a suitable arrangement.
With time, I suggest that you may too. At a pinch, play the child trump-card. "He is used to eating regularly, at these hours, in vast quantities." Then, nick some of his grub. Hell, that's what I'd do.
Maybe it's the suspension of the car.
Can't be my driving.
(Why don't you sue the airline for anti-child discrimination? Can't have children in business class? That's outrageous!)
(Oh yeah. The Cat works for them. Right.)
You can't be upgraded to BC with a kid, or maybe even fly on a free ticket with one. I'm mightily pissed off about the rule too, since I always got upgraded before.
I'm glad you're back. So sorry to hear that you were starved, how uncomfortable! What is it about the older generation that likes to starve the younger one? Plus, the whole awkward silence that must have been present during those ravenous moments...
(Nowadays, whenever I'm viviting my grandparents in Washington, I have to ask them, may I have some breakfeast?may I have some lunch?may I go to the store to buy some groceries? and that they refuse to let me shop by myself or be alone at any given moment always makes it worse; especially, if you can imagine, my grandfather eats *completely* fat free. Everything is up for scrutiny!)
I feel for you my dear, I'm sure you look beautiful inspite of your sunken in cheeks!;-)
Which Washington, haan?
I keep missing you!
My grandparents live in Horsehead Bay in Washington State. It's a beautiful place and I wish I lived there too.
(But then again, Italians are notorious rule-benders, and a lot more sentimental about kids than the French.)
As for the food, Webfeet, it's clear that your mistake was to marry into the bourgeoisie, instead of choosing a boy of peasant stock. I'm sure you would thrive on the traditional breakfast around here, Soupe aux choux (a gloopy stew of cabbage, potatoes and big fatty chunks of boiled bacon).
And, I am the most generous host! When belle mere comes, I cook up a storm, and spare no expense. I remember the disapproval on her face when I told her we were having scallops for dinner. She was shocked and embarrassed, I think she thought I was wildly extravagant, some kind of kook. While it's true that coquiles st. jacques is double the price in france, I don't think it deserved such moral reproach. I remember having the feeling that she wasn't enjoying this at all at the time. Odd, for a country of gastronomes, huh?
Yet, this kind of bourgeoise frugality, as alistair notes, is really legendary in France. I remember reading passages in old texts about how these big family firms in 19th century France got started and they would squeeze the blood out of every last centime, rationing their wine à table with miserly little dropfuls, distributing a half a carafe for 12 people!
When I complained to frenchcat who, like your beloved, was largely unsympathetic to my plight having developed a strategy of eating 1 entire baguette at breakfast to brace him for the day, he turned to me and said, "How do you think they got 2 houses?"
My husband was with me for 2 weeks and we would sneak out for our little fixes, (our orgiastic little tarte emilies) but nevertheless, I did manage to drop a few pounds. Nothing extraordinary.
But yes, like you, I did feel very awkward about wanting to buy my own groceries and things but I never let on with them that I was vexed. A part of me felt I had no right to be as well. I don't know, it gets complicated being a guest. That's why Im happy to be home.
Yes, odd though it may seem, these cheap brothers, definitely of peasant stock, never, ever fail to have a house full of food. Meals are always plates full of tremendous amounts of food and just about when you think you've had enough of the (roast, turkey, whatever) and have just barely finished doing the dishes, the bread comes out and it's, "Who wants a sandwich?" But of course, the ambience is one of throws on top of throws to cover the holes in the chairs, and watch where you step for the dogs under feet or the rumple in the wall-to-wall which predates the last great war.
If I get out all my frustrations now, then the next time belle mere comes, I may not turn to her and say, "Eh voila! Je fais rien ce soir. On va faire un pique-nique!"
The nadir was dinner with brother-in-law in which there was an awkward stand-off for who would take the last helping of cold haricots. Triste.
In an Indian family, you'd be Queen now, with every whim catered to and endless pampering. You're the mother of a Prince, after all.
My own parents, silly in so many ways to and with my wife, completely dote on her now that she's done the needful.
I have a dear cousin who is in exactly the same boat, though perhaps even more victimized because she is Indian. We once stole off from a party in Gif-sur-Yvette to a park to smoke cigarettes and to allow her to weep inconsolably about it on my shoulder.
Of course you can always tell your poor cousin to 'pooof' them back, but you and I both know that is futile. A foreigner poofing a frenchman is out of the realm of comical and into the arena of the ludicrous. You will relinquish all respect at that moment.
Unfortunately, you can't penetrate a certain brand of french arrogance even if you are mother of a little dauphin. I think the best way to handle it is to be dismissive.
so, what's your itinerary for France? Are you heading to the southwest? We were in Pau in the Béarn, which is good for one day or so, but Périgord is supposed to be fabulous for cuisine.
We were also in Pays Basque at St. Jean de Luze the beach resort and had a blissful day of fruits de mer and lots of sunshine. Since you are going in early fall, it's probably wise to wait for another visit.
We're only stopping over in Paris for two days to hang with family friends.
The rest of the vacation is going to be in Andalucia, with another two day side trip to Madrid.
Your mangemiade had me amused --- and surprised. As Alistair earlier mentioned I have just been to France, and the food there is so absolutely top-notch excellent that you'd think you were in, er, France.
(After that it was a real gastronomical yo-yo experience to eat at a German Autobahn Cafeteria. Yuck, yuck, and nochmals yuck! How can two neighbour countries eat so differently? )
Also, your account belies my impression that the elder generation's women are universally and singlemindedly obsessed with seeing you stuffed like a sofa, constantly urging you to have more even when you're barely halfway through your third portion of the second dish.
But I gather that that may be universal only in some places, like Denmark...
AC, you bring back fond memories of every holiday dinner with my Polish grandmother. She would march around the "children's table" with her bowl full of creamed onions which we all hated. Someone was going to get stuck with a spoonful or two on their plate...guaranteed. It was years later, grandmother long since dead, that our youngest cousin admitted that he actually learned to like those onions and now misses them.
The American Airlines sports arena is official open as of today. Not only is it aesthetically pleasing, it's the most technologically advanced sports arena IN THE NATION.
Maybe someday New York will get one.
Btw, Houston is now trying to outdo Dallas with their arena. Good luck!
---
When I first moved to the area 20 years ago, Union Square Park was a hellhole. It was to be avoided day and night, drug dealers abounded. It has turned itself around (along with most of the city) dramatically. And a big reason for that turnaround is the Greenmarket. Now extremely popular, it features every conceivable kind of farm product sold by the farmers themselves. You have to stick to a pretty rigid organic code, and you have to be from the region to sell here. It's fast become one of the best things about NYC.
Here, to begin, is a photo of the center of Union Square. You can see the tents of the market in the background.
Try not to get too breathless in anticipation.
But I loved it last fall. Hot cider and pumpkin pie on chilly saturday afternoons at the park... lots of fun.
How I envy your weekend in the horn of plenty. We took the fucking LIRR to the beach and it sucked dogshit. Double dose of culture shock. what more crude a species exists than The Long Islander?
Our first course was melon--slices of cantalope and our second course was lettuce. And,that, en gros, was the meal plan unless there were invitees.
But do share any places worth visiting. Were you around Provence?
Year round. It's the mother of all farmer's markets, you really should go one Saturday. I mean it when I say it's one of the best things about the City.
Go early, you get first picks at the produce - I guarantee you'll be amazed and gladdened at the mindboggling array.
Pity, because the beaches are great.
Did she skip the wine and serve only water, too?
My kid loves it. We generally take the stuff from the Greenmarket to a friend's apartment right there (convenient for our return trip via the PATH), dump the bags, whisk together a picnic and go to Central Park. Almost always, the picnic starts with corn on the cob - from field to palate in less than half-a-day.
When I was 17 I once stayed for a week as a guest in a well-off French household. I was served seven dishes each night, and the woman gave me a huge casse-croute for my trip home. I shall never forget it. That was in the Aveyron département in the south west not far from Toulouse.
---
I recommend you check out the Ardèche, if you haven't done that already. Truly beautiful landscape and numerous picturesque mountain villages. We lived in one of those, St. Pierreville, and we enjoyed ourselves greatly.
Also, further south there is the magnificent Gorges de l'Ardèche even if it is heavily touristed.
---
And have you seen the Palais Idéal in Hauterive (that's not Ardèche, but Drôme, on the other side of the Rhône). 
A postman built this singlehandedly over a span of 33 years, 1875-1908 or something. Every night having completed his route, he'd lay some stones. Amazing.
---
Now, the last photo I posted tells you what we do after the market most Saturdays - take the subway up to Central Park which is just the place to be on a summer weekend day. We generally walk across from the West Side to the Rumsey Playfield, which has an excellent series of concerts featuring great acts from around the world. The schedule for this year is here.
On the way, is this famous Central Park memorial -
This time, we happened upon this rather competent jazz quintet swinging away in a quiet corner -
If you're ever in a hurry to cook the corn, here's an easy way.
After shucking it, rinse. Wrap in wax paper like a burrito and microwave for 3 minutes (maybe less depending on the strength of your microwave). Let cool off, and eat.
I like mine plain.
---
So, we made our way to the lawns near the playfield and laid out the picnic and noshed away to the music. Little marjoribanks gets to dance around barefoot and generally act like a Central park hippie -
And then we head home.
That, friends, is a typical Saturday for us in NYC.
My husband insists on smoking the corn in the shuck.
We emerge on the East Side of the Park, on our way to the 6 train back to Union Square. Generally, we pass the Metropolitan Museum on the way.
Imagine my surprise this Saturday, when I happened upon our buddy Pseudoerasmus there - entertaining the crowd as is his wont. That's him in the lowest left corner of the picture doing his thing.
Is that you in the Corona beer shirt upthread?
It's genuinely touching, though in a creepy way.
My digital turns out to be not so bad, even given its crudeness and complete lack of flexibility. No zoom, can you believe it.
Hell, I'm more than 20 posts younger.
And loving every minute of it -
I'm sure your pics are fine, they usually are, but they don't show up on my screen, which is why I haven't commented. It's probably a problem between here and shutterfly.
Thanks for letting me know. Can you see the image in this link?
And to think that here in the US postal workers, mine included, are generally thought to be completely insane-- when in France they have brilliant hobbies, producing miniature miracles out of scraps of stone instead of using human targets for rifle practice in a Mcdonalds. I think that was in Texas, actually, but I could be wrong.
Sorry for the bad PR Judith and Jen--but someone had to bring you down a peg or two, ha ha. I normally don't use that expression but I couldn't resist since it comes from a line from a Hilarious movie I saw last weekend--"Bowfinger"--when Eddie Murphy's character talks about his obsession with bringing the Laker Girls "down a peg or two."
This is not the right thread, but that film made me laugh so hard I had tears in my eyes.
Glad to be of help -- I really think France is an extraordinarily varied, beautiful and interesting country which is indeed worth touring.
When we drove home it was as if the landscape became duller and duller the farther north we came. Denmark as seen from a highway is almost depressingly flat and uninspiring, I have to say. Even if dotted with neat farm houses in neatly combed fields. You need to be at the coast here (which luckily is never more than some 50 km away).
Where in the US do you live?
My father was born dans l'Ardèche and his family moved dans la Drôme where he met my mother. I was born in Valence (Drôme) but lived dans le Gard, near Nîmes, until my family moved first to Lyon and then to Paris. If we had stayed there, I doubt I would be living in the US today. My brother Jeannot has a summer home near Eclassan dans l'Ardèche. All the aunts and uncles of both families still live there in Provence. When I go to France, I first visit my cousins in Paris then go dans le Jura where I have a sister, then to Lyon where my mother, brother, and another sister live.
The best time I have is when I round up my visit with the old aunts and uncles still living dans la Drôme. I spent each summer of my childhood half in Provence and half sur la côte d' Azur after we moved away from Provence. I even lived in Aix-en-Provence for a year where my mother had inherited a house right in town..
I love to read your posts because anything coming from that region, even through cyberlife brings back to me vividly l'air de la Provence, la lavande, les cerises, les abricots, les figues, les olives, les vendanges, le chant des cigales, la pétanque, and so much more...
song of grasshoppers, I think.
you were born in Valence, you say? The owners of our rented house lived there, so we had to stop by on our way down to get the keys. They lived on the western outskirts - St. Petray, I think it was called - on a mountain slope with the most breathtaking view.
Valence proper didn't strike me as all that interesting, though. But we were only passing through. 
I don't know if Valence has anything to offer. My stay there was short as it was in the hospital where I was born. I spent my first years in a village in the department of Gard, way south of Ardèche and Drôme, just above the Côte d'Azur. It has an 11th century Romane style church and a madonna on the hill so old its origins are not known. It is situated near near Nîmes (Roman arena and Maison Carrée), Arles, and Montpellier. The Pont-du Gard is not far also.
Judith,
The cigales are not grasshoppers. I think they are called cicadas here. They are from a different insect family. The males have some organs that make a sort of droning sound. My brother's summer place in Ardèche does not have them, too highly situated, I guess.
This was taken on Solomon's Island, MD. 
Really? I see them!
Boo-hoo.
I have to admit... the Vietnam Memorial is one of the best, most effective memorials I have ever seen. It is not overdone like this one they put up in Bedford, VA. The only thing subtle about that one is it's location... but it is gaudy.
The women's memorial follows most classics.
The Korean memorial mirrors the Vietnam memorial, but has a nice composition. I like the fountain, and the bronze squad walking through the creeping cedar. I couldn't figure out why some of them were carrying carbines, and some M-1's, but that's a technicality. The black granite wall had photographic images etched on them... don't know how much that added to the composition.
I was irriated by a group of scouts who chose to enter the Korean memorial through the grass and over a chain fence; pretty obnoxious not to use the sidewalk.
I remember a few years ago the food critic Ruth Reichl wrote a piece in the NYT something like 'In search of the real Provence' and concluded that the vrai Provence didn't exist, or it didn't live up to her imagination, which had been inspired by old French films like 'Ceasar and Fannie' which take place in Marseille but I am pretty sure she cited that one as an example of gritty french working-class people whose clothes stink and who get drunk and make a raucous. It was like a backlash to the gentrified Peter Mayle trail only it was so obviously a provocation that it made her sound incredibly elitist and ornery. There are parts of the Luberon where there are strip malls disguised as Provençal villas, bien sure, but, if you look around,even in Aix, you still see men playing petanque in the Parc Jordan, pastis is still the boisson preferé and there are anchovies in everything. Most Aixois I've met, and I've met quite a few, aren't even born in the region, they're from all over. So Provence is definetely a state of mind, and one that is very easy to get used to.
The FDR memorial is expansive. It's cascading water effectively drowns out the traffic on the road and the planes landing at washington airport. FDR certainly generated a lot of great quotes. He led us through a real low spot in our country's history. Too bad all his programs which began the era of a nanny gov't have been bastardized to the point that they may screw us up for good... that's beside the point.
I was surprised how _recently_ the Licoln and Jeffferson memorials were built. For some reason I thought they were older.
Licoln has many detractors for some reason... but standing in that memorial reading his words... I am renued in my belief that he was a truly great man. I stood on the steps and looked out on the reflecting pool at a group of protestors with signs that said "There's no such thing as an 'ex'-mother"... whatever that meant. I thought about Martin Luther King, another great man, and tried to imagine his I have a dream speech. Pretty amazing, and not to belittle the throng of 30 people protesting unjust treatment of 'ex'-mothers, seems like the last substantive protest we've seen in the capitol.
Let me just say that whatever imperfections the man had... he's done more for this country than any of those fuckers could hope to do in their lifetime, their kid's lifetime, and their grandchildren's lifetime combined. The man is a priciple author of the Constitution, his concepts of unallienable rights, freedom of religion...
He was a great man... and anyone who wants to concentrate on his imperfections and transgressions ought to get a life. This man did more for liberty and freedom than _anyone_.
The last interesting thing was going up in the old post office building. It's kind of bizzare to look out over DC. I tried very hard to imagine the view 50 years ago... 100 years ago. DC has definitely been beset by urban sprawl. Too bad we didn't buffer it better.
Oh...and if you're looking for a good diversion for kids between 6 and 12... head over to the park next to the airport. You can stand directly under the planes as they land... very cool. They're not very high up at all and it is delightfully noisy and fun.
can ya'll see that?
If we had stayed there, I doubt I would be living in the US today.
That's a very profound observation.
Yeah!
OK, here's my three (one with a black eye) on Solomon's Island.
Dammit!
The Lincoln Memorial is impressive too, but in an imposing way. You feel hushed and dwarfed in the giant presence of the great man and his words.
By contrast, the two mentioned above are more human.
The WWII memorial looks (on paper) to be ridiculously overblown in contrast. I agree with the critics who say it looks like something Speer would have designed.
Webbie let's see one of Clement bfore too long, please.
Here are some of the 80th Annual Coast Guard Festival - a week-long bash and the biggest thing in Grand Haven:
On Dewey Hill, the cross is replaced (sort of) with a giant anchor (except on Sunday, of course).
Ludington, Cheboygan, and Green Bay are left defenseless against the enemy, as their Cutters, USCGC Mackinaw (Mighty Mack), Bramble, and Biscayne Bay are in town for the festivities.
View from the top deck of the Mackinaw.
It was all worth it, as my daughter got to have her picture taken with Miss Coast Guard, Lisa Bauer, who will go on to the Miss Michigan Pageant.
There were over 5,000 people there, and it was so hot the kids' face paint was just running down their faces and necks. They all looked like slasher victims after an hour. So...
When relief came in the form of a sea rescue demonstration, all 5,000 of us crowded against the fence at the baseball field, to be fanned by the chopper's rotors. I took this photo with both hands in the air, and stayed that way till my armpits dried out.
On Wednesday, Mulligan's Hollow hosted the 2nd Annual HollowFest - an all-day concert featuring the hottest alternative Christian bands. There were over 20,000 people for this year's show.
It was all worth it, as my daughter got to have her picture taken with Miss Coast Guard, Lisa Bauer, who will go on to the Miss Michigan Pageant.
There were over 5,000 people there, and it was so hot the kids' face paint was just running down their faces and necks. They all looked like slasher victims after an hour. So...
When relief came in the form of a sea rescue demonstration, all 5,000 of us crowded against the fence at the baseball field, to be fanned by the chopper's rotors. I took this photo with both hands in the air, and stayed that way till my armpits dried out.
On Wednesday, Mulligan's Hollow hosted the 2nd Annual HollowFest - an all-day concert featuring the hottest alternative Christian bands. There were over 20,000 people for this year's show.
Grand Haven is tiny, with a population in the city of only 10,000. During Coast Guard Week, there are over 100,000 people in the city at any given time, for such events as the Arts Fair, nightly concerts at the Waterfront Stadium, tons of stuff for the kids, and beer tents -lots of beer tents.
Washington Street, the main drag, is closed to car traffic for 4 blocks for the festival, which accounts for over 50% of the entire summer business for most of the shops and restaurants.
Then, the carnival rolls in, and all hell breaks loose.
...actually, this carnival is a blast. It's clean, and very well patrolled by the city police and county sheriff's deputies. The city makes the carnies pitch camp on an island a mile away, and the police help make sure they all make it there when the carnival shuts down at midnight.
Tomorrow is the Grand Parade, which will draw over 200,000 people. Then the fireworks show at 10:00, which is the official end of the Festival - although there will be many special events all weekend.
The unofficial end of the festival is the Sunday morning HymnSing at Waterfront Stadium.
More pics in a couple of days...
(Hope I haven't bored anyone).
Great shots...Keoni wants to know how long we can keep you little daughter...he's smitten with her!
OK, this belongs in religion...... or RELIGION for the zeolots out there.
beotch
!!
;)
Stupid, but we're havin' a blast!
And I resent the fact that Judith misspelled my beloved monniker abbove
ok .... I hope like hell Rosie's lurking. Keoni is here, but there will be LOTS of sex goin on tonite!!!!
Save it for the masturbatoruy tghrdsiag
Judith's still drunk (hehe, just kidding), so I thought I'd bring this nice thread back to the top.
I mean, what else is there to do in Arkansas??
(Besides going to Walmart...)
I'm kidding!
Seriously, there was plenty to drink at the party, but hardly anyone drank to any excess. Only two people I can think of out of 57 total probably wish they could remember Saturday night. No one wanted to blur the memories. I started to take pictures but didn't, except for two or three group ones. There were no video cameras. It just didn't feel right, somehow--imposing or something. I have a thousand images, though, and I know many others feel the same. We'll just continue the oral history that was established almost fifty years ago. As I said in the cafe, people came from six states and a span of 45 years and it was wonderful from start to finish.
And no, I was not one of the two who can't recall Saturday night! However, I probably was the biggest wuss because I went to bed aound 11:30.
Thanks Judith. I can't wait until Bob gets home to read your posts.
You are absolutely correct, the Provençal region is a stage for French tourism. It has been for as long as I remember. In fact, I believe all France is a stage for tourism. What we get as tourists is the modern French world set in Gallo-Roman décor, maintained and refined by a savvy government who sees to it that its patrimony brings jobs. French tourism is one of biggest industries if not the first biggest.
In the village where I spent my first eight years, many villas with their red slate tiles, their thick walls, their rose and vegetable garden, had been bought by the newcomers who were not yet the immigrants, however. The new people were engineers from a nuclear center near by and prosperous retirees from Avignon, Arles, and up-North. The village was well on its way to become a touristy-must-stop. Antique, gallery/gift shops and the like (Piège-à-cons, as my brother inelegantly calls them) were there. The ancient cafés had been refurbished as well as the old hotel. Not far was the French version of motels. The Romane church was only open for the rites and Saints and Virgin Mary processions. We could still roam the area pretty unfettered. It was not so easy for my children to do the same. It is nearly impossible now for the children, what with the new villas being built all over the old haunts.
I read one of Reichl’s article long ago in which she says that it is easier to find the ingredients of good food in Berkeley, real French bread in New York, than it is in France. Oh, well, what there is to say in answer to such a statement?. As for her evaluation of “ real Provence”, I feel she should leave that to people like beaupère and his fellow international writers, and stick to what she knows best which is good American food and restaurants.
At risk of repeating myself, the Provence I remember and visit each year is still very much there for me with: the music and art festivals; the heat not too dry, not too humid; the fruit trees, especially the olive, fig, and cherry; the grapes; the birds and the cicadas; the profusion of flowers and tasty fruits and vegetables; the beautiful old houses and small châteaux; the churches; the mineral springs’. Finally yet importantly, the very old aunts, elegant in manners, who are living among treasures a life that is not possible for many there anymore.
Anyway, beau-père and belle-mère sound to me the best of people, opinions of restaurant and home meal of salad and bread included.:-)
If not, I beg your indulgence once more...
Grand Haven is (as it says on the sign as you enter the city) "Coast Guard City USA". The Coast Guard lifesaving station (and the Festival) are a major source of pride (and revenue) for the city.
But, you either love it (the Festival), or hate it. I love it.
The parade participants take over the city - literally. This band, from Buena Park, CA, parked in front of my parents' house and began practicing about 2 hours before the parade started.
The Coast Guard Band and Ceremonial Honor Guard took over the yard of the house across the street.
All along the parade route there are parties - some charge admission, but most are private:
(Check out the little green guy to the left of the front door)
Bands come from all over the US - here's that band from Buena Park, CA - "Impulse"...
...and from all over the world:
This band is from Strangnas, Sweden.
This one's from Japan.
And this one's from Taiwan.
There were also 4 or 5 bands from Canada, and one from Mexico.
(From Cedar Springs, where they make your long underwear)
(From Greenville - a hotbed of Danism)
...and of course:
...then, it took us over an hour to get through the crowd.
That big guy with the hat and goatee - undercover cop. No fun for him - there were no arrests, despite the crowd's size - over 250,000. 
Continued from the Cafe ( Post 49317 ).
My trip to Texas and Arkansas:
Let me first say that the stuff surrounding the millenial upthread in here was really fun that night. I thought of jumping in on the fun at the time ( early in the morning, as one can see ), but I did not want to disturb the spontaneity of that moment, particularly Post # 2008.
Judith and Seadate were having a great time taking turns "lowering the bar" on each other at the time, as anyone can plainly read. At one point, Judith looked over Seadate's shoulder and saw the beginnings of the wordmasturbation, so she started pulling at Seadate's shirt in an attempt to stop him from typing and hitting the post button. Seadate, laughing uncontrollably at the moment, obviously got it off, albeit with masturbatoruy tghrdsiag in place of "Masturbation thread". I think we ended up staying up until 2:00 or 2:30 that morning. Fun stuff.
And, no, we had not been drinking that morning. (g)
Let me start with thanking my hosts for this past weekend: I cannot find the words to express my "Thank Yous" to each one of you -- Judith, Keoni and the Arky's pulled out all the stops, folks. Major hotel chains could learn a thing or two about pampering and hospitality for their guests from these folks, guys. I am indebt to you ( Frankster genuflects) all.
I can only hope I am able to come through for them in like manner when they come out here to visit someday! As they say, Mi casa es su casa,so just let me know when you're coming out so I can get this labor of love and gratitude going -- this extends to all those beautiful, genuine, and lovely people I was honored to meet through all of you also ... My God, even their dogs treated us like we were family. :-)
Continued:
This morning, for example, I awoke up to a superb breakfast courtesy of Master "K" ( I wonder if that rap artist sobriquet has been taken, by the way, Keoni ?), and Judith wanting to press my khaki pants which she had washed for me previously.
Should any of you need anything, I'm as close as your phone or e-mail. Got that !?
Snapshots of a truly wonderful weekend:
I never got to say "Good-bye"to Klaus.
That Seadate is one cool, generous soul. I kid y'all not! Though, he does have this problem with sleepwalking around three in the morning, and tapping on strange windows to let him in. Hee-hee!
... He does know his shower fixtures, though. (g)
I saw a Stuckeys. I did! I did! I did! My next goal is to somehow attain the nerve to actually order something from them. "Yum, yum! Pecan pies."
Let me get this straight, $25,000 three bedroom, two bath homes -- with a yard ? One can't buy a 12 pack cooler for that price out here.
Hey, Keoni, let's do some Mexican food! (g)
Scanning the countryside I noticed that bales of hay had gone Cheerio on me. It looked impractical to me at first, until I found out from an expert as to why square bales are going the way of the Dodo bird.
Arky and Bob don't sleep. How they do it I don't know ?
My preconceptions of the Dallas/Fort Worth area were broken to and from our drive to Arkansas. My image of this "twin-city" area was previously one of glass and steel buildings amid oil derricks, dry brush and wind swept sagebrushed plains.
Boy, was that image wrong. The Dallas/Fort Worth area is one of beautiful foliage, trees, and man made lakes. This is suppose to be "purgatory" ? Nonsense.
Boy, did that Hubbard Lake look inviting!
An F-B 111 on the side of a Texas highway ? What up with that ?
Apparently I am not the first to have thought of, or tried, to make love to someone in the beautiful woods of Texas or Arkansas ( Chiggers ... Hee-hee!).
I occasionally like perusing through the fashion do's and don'ts of these tabloids, but Seadate actually reads the articles of The Enquirer and The Globe. I kid you not! (Hee-hee-hee)
Continued:
I saw a historic Indian lookout mound ( I couldn't hear what Arky mentioned about it?)!
That DFW is one HUGE airport. I'm convinced that half of my trip from Long Beach to DFW occurred after the plane's tires touched down on the DFW tarmac. I taxied halfway here. Huge that place, I tell ya. Huge.
... After Keoni picked me up at the American Airlines gate, he handed me the phone to talk to Judith. Among the initial smalltalk, Judith asked me where we were at that moment. I looked around and told her that we had left the airport and that we were on some freeway, whereupon Keoni quickly corrected me by telling me we were still in the airport -- That place is huge.
Speaking of big: Arky doesn't have a barn. It's a former Lockheed wind tunnel. You could throw several parties in there.
A fetus runs Mike Salerno's in Fort Worth.
The folks I met through the Arkys and the Spencers treated me like old company. What wonderful, beautiful folk. "Fly-over" country could teach some of us a thing or two about genuineness and decency.
Arky's tour of her town was definitely an "E" ticket. I'll never forget it. Her connections to the past and present were a thing to behold. I have a smile from ear to ear whenever I think about it. Her Arkansas accent was the icing on the cake. That, and how warm and open the folk out there are, are my two favorite memories.
...The topography of the area, as well as the fact that we were on a "mission" to pick some food up, made me recall the part in Romancing the Stone where the drug trafficer decides to give Micheal Douglas and Kathleen Turner a tour of his village as they are being frantically chased by the crooked federales.
Continued:
Judith and Keoni's home is a treasure chest. A venerable treasure chest of antiques and world trinkets.
That Arky's home belongs on a Norman Rockwell painting. That's some porch y'all have!
I want to see the Fort Worth museums the next time I'm down!
Despite a heat and humidity I am not accusstom to, I did not want to come home. I have a feeling that there is yet so much to see.
I truly have been enriched from this experience. What beautiful scenery and people, and I can't wait to go back someday.
Thank you, Judith, Keoni, Seadate, Arky, Bob, Mose, and all those other wonderful people responsible for the memorable time.
With it getiing hotter here in the next two months, I think I will be purchasing some leather sandals in the next two weeks. See what you did, Keoni ?! :)
Fin
And what I said about the Indian mound was that the doofus landowner shaved off the top of it, which was covered with nice trees when I first saw it, so soybeans could be planted on it. Bob used to love to walk up on it (I never did) and said you'd be amazed at how much more you can see from the top.
Joe,
You do have a beautiful town and the next time we visit our pals from Detroit I would like to do whatever it takes to see it. I looked at digital cameras the other day, but can't do it yet. You and Marj have helped put one at the top of my "want" list, though.
I took some shots this weekend too, though mainly concerned with getting to and enjoying the Living Color reunion concert in Central Park. I posted one shot of a giant spider sculpture in Spike's thread.
I was trying (in my limited run through the park) to try and record one of the nicer and cooler features the space offers. You have this rather bucolic scene unfolding in front of you, and then you look up and there are the skyscrapers looming above. The juxtaposition in uniquely NY.
I'm so glad you had a fun time...and thank you for all the nice things you said about us; envision a blush on my cheek!
I agree with you on everything you said about the Arkys and their hospitality...A-One!
Klaus was estatic to return home and take up his usual job...sleeping in the windowseat.
And I have to say, one of the joys of the weekend for me was seeing you discover a part of the country you'd never seen...you're a classy traveler, my friend.
Judith,
You mentioned Klaus, and I immediatedly thought of the window ledge painter story.
What a nice dog, and please let him know that I felt honored when he sat on my lap on the way to the kennel.
The Arkys and their friends have restored my faith in humanity. How 'bout that !
I obviously can't speak for other parts of Texas, but I found the areas I did see to be quite beautiful -- quite beautiful.
By the way, that area seems to be what San Diego was about 15 years ago in terms of traffic and density. Just right. IOW, hold growth right there and not another transplant more to throw things out of kilter! ;-)
marj:
Wonderful photos - Central Park was always one of my favorite things to do in NY. I used to bring my NY juvies there just about every weekend in the summer and around Christmas.
We even had a Yoko close encounter while visiting Strawberry Fields when it first opened. She said something to a couple of the kids, but not having any idea who she was, they blew her off like a bag lady.
The juxtaposition in uniquely NY.
Hard to believe the entire island once looked like that...
Prospect Park in Brooklyn followed by a few years. Many think it was Olmstead & Vaux's finest achievement.
Both are beautiful and were extremely thoughtfully planned.
But - neither reflect the "natural" state of Manhattan, which was somewhat hilly and wooded ala what you can see in typical woodland forests in southern New England even today. Large parts of where I used to live in the far northeast part of Westchester are good examples.
It also is eyeopening to see dioramas or whatever in hell they are called that show how much of Manhattan's waterfront is landfill which expanded its size quite dramatically.
Real estate speculators were the moving forces behind most of the above. Again, the more things change the less they do.
There was a USA postage stamp in honour of Frederick Law Olmstead a couple of years ago.
Also pretty postage stamp.
Dont know what was there before Olmstead began making a park.
there and have travelled to more than Sante Fe.?
I would like to hear from them at
Rhinoyesmaybe@Yahoo.com
I'll stake a place in the grass for youse, if you come out during Coast Guard Festival.
marj:
Actually, that fireworks shot was not the effect I was looking for. The local paper had said that there would be a surprise during the show - a totally new kind of firework - and that shot would've shown it more clearly had I used a tripod. As is, it kinda reminds me of a bunch of monstrous red sperm run amok. But what happened was this:
These things took off from the ground randomly as compact, rapidly-spinning spirals. They made a great, insect-like whizzing sound as they slowly ascended, before stopping at maybe 300 ft. Then, they'd stop spinning, fall a few feet, and change direction, spinning the opposite way. When this happened, the heads of the things would spread out, mushroom-like, while the whizzing increased in volume. They shot them off continuously for the duration of The Flight of the Bumblebee - there must've been hundreds of them.
I have enjoyed your photos also. In a way, they make me sad. I really loved the time I spent in Michigan. Seeing all of your photos of the quaint beautiful towns bring back a lot of memories for me...Petosky, Bay Springs, Charlevoix, the Cherry Festival, etc.
Webfeet,
I'm watching Valmont right now, staring at the young and virile Colin Firth in his 18th Century costume. Just thought you should know!;-)
I really enjoy reading your reminiscences of Provence. Those Piège-à-cons are all over Aix, opening up for the summer to snag the tourists with their provençal inspired pottery (before i bought my samsonite, i can't tell you how many gifts arrived home shattered in smithereens) only to close for the fall.
On a corrolary note, what is true about Reichl's observation is that absolutely everything french is imported in the US. The whole excitement and delicious rush I get when seeing my favorite french products in France is diminished now that Sephora has opened up here, and everything from my favorite Roger Gaillier savons to hair conditioners can be bought..or just about.
I was so disappointed when I stopped in to Bloomingdales the other day to see in the cosmetic area a row of my favorite french hair products by Rene Futurer. It had thrilled me to go into a French pharmacy and see them all so nicely organized in their little green boxes, so very french, inspiring such confidence in the gallic method of hair care. (although i never did try, they even promised an on-site hair specialist would perform an analyse of my hair to determine what product would work best!)
I don't want them available at a Long Island mall! I don't! Suis-je snob?
The only way for you to now play product snob will be to buy the really cheapo gimcrack junk they sell in the less tony establishments in Paris...the ones they will never import. You know, the French Pert shampoo or the French Suave line; the stuff that sells for three francs a gallon....:-)
Slippy fingers, my "as"...you're just jonesing for that humongo country breakfast...thick cut bacon, grits, slabs of ham steak with red-eye gravy, eggs over easy, cathead biscuits, hash browns....I can see you shaking from here!
I know how you feel. The British don't seem to use anything uniquely British, but going to the shops on High St. always felt so British.
Nowadays, the grocery stores here (and even department stores like Macy's!) are stocking up on *cheap* cosmetics imported from overseas. For example, Rimmel was the crappiest cosmetics line in England. Along the lines of Wet-N-Wild! Anyway, I saw it displayed beautifully in Macy's last weekend, and there was a small crowd buying up the products. I just thought to myself, "What a bunch of suckers!"
And Clark brand shoes (also sold in fine department stores) were the cheapest shoes in England. Very equivalent to an outlet Thom McAnn, and yet here they're at least $65.
The world is getting smaller.
On a happier note, your babe Colin Firth is a *MUST SEE* in Valmont. It's Diangerous Liasons, but with him.
Don't know the name (of course), but it is French and valued as gold among my in-laws (five sisters) and completely unavailable outside France.
It seems to have worked, by the way.
They're not particularly downmarket (for men anyway) though terribly stodgy and the preferred shoe of tweedy professors and the like. Naturally, I have a couple of pairs and have purchased Clarks since I reached adulthood.
Judith's right, cocoa butter works. The pricey magical formulas are usually the same lotions just sold at ridiculous prices. Pea in the Pod pregnancy skin care is a great example!
Long time ago seemed like one of the nicest
parts of the old South.
Nicer in August than in Savanna, Ga. in August, I would imagine.
Where you live now.?
My email= Rhinoyesmaybe@Yahoo.com
I just got a big kick out of a postcard just received of the dungeon of Crest, Drôme, that is the last remnant of the original château. Since it is lit at night, it was described as follows: The tower....bathed in an opalescent light...looks in the sky as magnificent as a priceless jewel set in a velvet case...
What hyperbole for that ugly dungeon!
Nothing about the instruments of torture still there and the bloody château history much more likely to incite the interest of tourists.
Then the aunt wrote the following on the postcard: Ta mère est née aux pieds de la tour donc tu es une enfant de Crest. N'oublie pas ces vers:
O noble et majestueuse tour/Que chaque enfant de Crest contemple avec amour.
hahaha! I'll spare you the rest.
I was in hysterics, so funny are the aunts are!
Bien sûr, Webfeet, tu es snob comme moi mais aussi comme moi, tu n'es sûrement pas une dilettante. De plus, on peut se le permettre ici d'autant plus qu'en France on n'a pas souvent l'occasion de l'être, les français se reservant le droit d'être snobs envers les Amerlos comme nous.:-)
I love fougasse by the way. I thought it was a specialite of the alps, though. Your aunts are in La Drome, right?
I've never been to the dungeon of Crest, but speaking of torture, there is a fun article in The New Yorker about the hedonistic Cathars and their clashes with the catholic church.
jenerator, same with Louis Bourjois cosmetics which are like a Maybelline in France. They are four times the price here only I think Maybelline might be better.
At least we will be subduing tantrums in the glory of breathtaking vistas, bellies full of BBQ. Do I understand correctly?
mmmmmmmMMMMMMMmmmmmmMMMMMMMMM!!!
You know, I don't even want to see him naked, or in a dewey lay-out or something. I think he's sexier clothed as Mister Darcy or in period clothes, as the personification of all that is good, just and true of english literature. Quel homme.
As usual, your words describe perfectly.
I think that Firth's power of attraction is his unattainability and approachability (and his expressive and intense face!).
Perhaps it is because he is so perfect as Mr. Darcy and not as some Playgirl pinup of the month, that he has such a smoldering effect.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Traveling, but what the heck!;-)
My sentiments are; this is a great country filled with nice people. I could live anywhere, it is just a smidgeon nicer here.
That's what the postcards and travel promotions say.
The obese proprietress of the inn we were scheduled to stay at, however, seemed to use this romantic refrain as an excuse not to renovate. Back in time to what? To a shabby little room of a Victorian spinster? My husband said it was une chambre out of Zola, or Balzac, where the penurious poet goes to write his last, lousy lines before hanging himself. Later he described it to his mother as a chambre d'une bonne, which means more or less a cleaning woman's quarters. It was tacky and dark. Miserable.
We had to get the fuck out at once. Tout de suite.
I accepted the blame. When someone won't send you a brochure, you simply do not make a reservation with them. duh.
We found a place equally expensive but incomparably better--a hotel that gave us the best of the B.I. experience-- terrace, view of marina, pool, and room service. But I fell in love with the bicycle rides we took around the island, particularly at dusk. Purple sky, and uplifting views of the cliffs and seaside cottages. Very pretty.
I had a really romantic vision of B.I. from when I went there once as a child. Although, I love New England kitsch, if you're going to pay 4 star prices, you should get the four star experience.
I think it's the same thing as a gristmill. And that is a mill that grinds grain.
Bob and I are going to try to do more weekend trips in AR during the school year now that we're not as tied up with Mose's weekend stuff as we used to be.
But wait...it can also be defined as... matter of interest or value forming the basis of a story or analysis; or something turned to advantage or use -- used especially in the phrase grist for one's mill, according to Merriam-Webster, on line.
Hmm, do I sense a trick here? : - )
It's the same here in the fall. I'm hoping to take some one and two day trips. Our fall is beautiful. Much different from yours or the NE, but beautiful all the same. I've been looking for some pics to post, but it seems everyone wants to upload their pics of the tulip and daffodil photos in the spring, or pics of the mountains.
The first grist mill in the New World.
Aren't you from Seattle?
A year ago last week, speaking of seasons, Little Rock reached a record high of 111º F. It's been in the low 80s the past few days. Much better.
Yes I am from Seattle. It's been low 70s and high 60's, perfect!
We don't usually get those temps until the end of October, which combined with the fall leaves makes it about our best month. Bob and I got married on a full moon in October. March is the same on the other end, sometimes the end of February. The jonquils bloom in early February, and I have seen them out before the end of January. It's usually not really hot until July. We hardly saw 100 this summer, which is very unusual, but last summer was record-breaking heat and very dry.
Shannon,
Any time you're this way, let me know and I may be able to help with info, and if you need a stopoff, we live in what would be a good resting spot between where y'all are and northern AR.
You know the red carpet will be out for y'all should you ever visit southern California. In fact, I'm having it cleaned as we speak. :-)
Keoni checked out his favorite shoe store yesterday after the movies and they had The Shoes there...the clerk said they were Tommy Bahama and that there was a store, he thought, in your town!
It will be higher temps in the next couple of weeks no doubt, but the weather is nice. And, when "one of those days" comes along, please let me know. I'd be delighted to meet you and show you what's here.
By the way, EuroDisney is not in or even particularly near Paris.
all an effort to emulate the informal street performer scene in NYC.
I strongly second or third the suggestion to spend at least as much time in Paris as in DisneyEuro. Those kids are old enough to have a great experience there.
Speaking of bread, a friend of mine who went there recently was disappointed that the french bread there was no different than the french bread you can buy in a grocery store. True? Or did she just have bad luck? I know that the one time I made french bread it tasted better than store-bought, but maybe because of smelling it bake.
You friend was wrong. Go to a store called Poilane to see breadmaking raised to a kind of real art.
I've also heard that the Louvre is boring for kids.
Disneyland Europe is of course so much more refined, so much more cultured.
Quite right! I thought you would be flying over from the 'States. Pardon my US-centricism. Enjoy EuroDisney, but go back to Paris often.
Yeah, right. I hear that the gals working there don't have to shave their legs.
The Louvre is indeed overwhelming. But a quick jaunt to see the Mona Lisa etc. (make sure you go on a free day) will give them a feel for the grandeur of the place.
Napoleon's Tomb is o.k. Depending on their interests, the French War Museum(s) are o.k., too. Just don't get too riled at reading how little we Americans did to help out in either of the WWs, especially WWI!!!!!
Notre Dame is cool too, and there indeed is a street scene of sorts right in front of it.
I was amused by how little the War Museum had to say about 1940. (Other than De Gaulle's brief attack at near Laon.)
Hop the channel train!
Quelle exubérance pourrait-elle me laisser avec cette protubérance?
What exuberance would she allow me with this protuberance?
There is an opportunity for my daughter to go to Italy, via the French Riviera. She will go to Florence, Pisa, Venice and Milan.
This trip might happen. She would go if we can agree that the trip is not overly subject to affects of the pending conflict. She agrees not to go if the conflict is expansive. There are chaprones and the group leader has four previous experiences with the same trip. This is happening via a teacher at her high school, who is also the leader.
My fears are real, but her life needs to be lived. My wife is dead set against it, I'm still thinking about it.
What to do, what to do????
The question becomes: Do you want to live long yet unfullfilled or do you chance the short life in the pursuit of fullfillment?
From the vantage...dis-advantage point of a parent, the former best applies to the child while the latter is just more anxiety.
What ever one you would choose may not be the one she does.
My opinion, as is to my children, is that to live in fear of death is not as good as to live in hope of life.
Let's see...17,000 americans were killed/murdered by other american's last year...37,000 killed in auto accident's...lightening killed near 300...perhaps the majority of the victims were where they were because they feared doing anything dangerous?
Mose is your daughter's age and she's going to Europe this year. So far no change in plans.
I'm sure you have already thought of this, but consider giving your daughters cell phones so you can reach them and you can reach them. (get the right adapter too.) It is a way of keeping them from being homesick, and helps your concern. Of course, home and cell phones need voice mail as well, as you know.
I agree with the others. Do let your daughter go.
Of course you will worry, but you'd probably worry about her even if the attack on the WTC had not occurred. That's part of being a parent.
My youngest daughter is leaving for China next month. She's a lot older than your daughter but even so I'll be concerned about her. It's not that I think she'll be in any danger at all, more that she's my baby and she'll be a long way from home.
My 16 year-old daughter went to summer school at U of Cal at Berkeley this summer, sitting in the classes with university students, taking the same courses, arguing a position and commenting. There is no substitute for this kind of experience, there is no substitute for the memory of shocked classmates asking her, "You're only 16! What are you doing here?!", there is no substitute for the self-confidence she acquired or the admiration of her several teachers. And, RickNelson, you and I, the counselors and college admissions officers all know, such experience and such travel as proposed for your daughter does count favourably toward college admissions.
Again, let her go. Literally and figuratively, let her go.
I'm going to push for letting her go. My wife is set against it out of fear and that is a very big obstacle. I'll do my best.
I know for sure that a subscriber in Europe can rent a US-compatible phone for $30-50 a month, excluding call charges. I would suppose the reverse is also available. Operators make a lot of money on international roaming. Check with your local operator.
What everyone else says. Back when I was your daughter's age and fear of hijackings was prevalent, I traveled to Europe alone and also with a group from my school. It's a great experience, one not so easily come by later on.
I would think this would be a great time to travel...security is bound to be better than before and hotels and everything are probably itching for business...great time to go to Vegas, as thoughtful says, and to the Disney places...no lines!
I'm not too hassled by check-ins and long waits and while I'm a little concerned about cancelations, we're flexible. At least if we get stuck, we'll be with family and in Paradise...ha!
We went to Waffle House not just once, but twice. Sprout loves to say it, only it comes out "Awful 'ouse!" Both times, our servers were missing some important teeth. Is that the norm? I had my hash browns scattered and diced.
New Bern, North Carolina, was a good find. It is a small city at the junction of the Trent and Neuse Rivers, just before they flow into the Atlantic. 10-foot sharks are sometimes seen in the Neuse. The city is flanked, to the south, by a national forest that has alligators and venus fly-traps and bogs. I wanted to walk around in it (like an idiot?) but we didn't find time.
We were there the week after the attacks--was every place deserted? The city was very quiet, but had an air of prosperity about it. Some of the buildings looked Swiss, but not in the garish Tudor-style, and some Federal. The gardens were flourishing and well-tended. I hate shopping, mostly, but the shops there were fun. I wandered into one that sold needlepoint and yarns and was also home to a fine little collection of Civil War memorabilia--guns, doctor kits, ammo. The hardware store had a display of antique tools in the window, and sold funky little useless things like washboards along with the serious hardware stuff. Pepsi was first concocted in New Bern, and the spot where the drugstore that sold it used to be is now, of course, a store full of Pepsi logos.
On the way back we stopped at Chincoteague Island--anyone read those Margaurite Henry horse books as a kid? I didn't see any wild ponies (yes, they still live on the island, and they still round them up once a year), which was disappointing.
The final day was driving home--through Virginia's Eastern Shore, Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and finally Massachusetts. Yow. We drove by Manhattan and could see the cloud of smoke hanging over that half of the island--well, it's difficult to miss.
Sprout was an angel. In particular, she very much enjoyed the red elephants at the North Carolina Zoo.
Hmmm, should I take Flight 11 or 175? I can't decide.
(Not funny, not funny.)
On my flight from Copenhagen to Oslo where I stopped over, I was served salmon. On my flight from Oslo to Tromsø, I was served salmon. At dinner Monday night in Tromsø, the entry was salmon. At lunch the next day, they served me salmon. On the flight from Tromsø to Oslo, they served me salmon. And, finally, on the flight from Oslo to Copenhagen, they were serving, you guessed it: Salmon.
Norway is big in salmon. They cultivate them in big 'aqua farms' off the coast. This has brought the price down, and that's all for the good. It's a delicious fish.
Still, I do think I had enough salmon for those two days...
Both times, our servers were missing some important teeth. Is that the norm?
Holly, I'm not sure it's the norm exactly, but it's not surprising. I took my kids to a Waffle House earlier this month, for the first time ever, I think. Oddly, Q didn't want waffles. He loves waffles. But he seemed quite happy with his grilled cheese and hash browns, so who am I to complain?
I'm glad you had a nice trip.
That's a hell of a lot of salmon, sto.
Want some pickled herring?
This is an advert for Carlsberg beer scanned from the International Herald Tribune. The green Carlsberg truck is in the lower right part of the picture. Immediately above it is what looks like a white banner. In the original one can see that it is covered by Arabic script. So the location is somewhere this script is used and one can shoot advertisements for beer. That immediately rules out quite a few countries. On the skyline, in the centre, you see two towers. Looking carefully at the original they look like church towers.
So where can it be? My guess is Aleppo in northern Syria but I could easily be wrong.
It sure is if you're shit poor, Holly, and your minimum-wage job doesn't provide health insurance.
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