Ando:
Begin was not commander of the 101st, and was not associated with Kibya. That paragraph from little Johnny Hamid's site was about Sharon. As for some of the Etzel (they were called 'Irgun' - 'organization' - by the British - but that's only the first word in their name, and Etzel is the acronym they were known by) being hanged after independence - nuh uh. Never happened. They all have streets named after them in Ramat Aviv.
8461. joezan - 4/15/2002 11:44:58 PM
Pike:
Did you make it to court?
8462. sakonige - 4/15/2002 11:48:20 PM
Message # 8457
I didn't make a threat against you. I said I hoped one of your children would become a Muslim and bomb you to your reward in Paradise.
8463. joezan - 4/15/2002 11:50:43 PM
sak:
Oh - alrightythen.
8464. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:09:24 AM
sak -
Read my latest post in religion. I'm throwing up, for discussion, the idea that we start passing laws declaring that all language in religious texts which incites criminal and discriminatory behavior, particularly against non-believers of said religion, be disallowed from said religious teachings.
It's not as if others from the Left haven't wanted to fuck with Christianity to a much larger extent than this, so don't shit me with the 'I'm shocked' routine, anybody.
8465. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:14:13 AM
To cavilers: If you're not up for religious cannibalism, human sacrifice, bestiality, et al., why are you siding with those whose religion calls for murdering all nonbelievers?
8466. sakonige - 4/16/2002 1:19:41 AM
concerned -
Why not just outlaw religion altogether? That would be simpler.
8467. sakonige - 4/16/2002 1:21:20 AM
Amid the ruins of Jenin, the grisly evidence of a war crime
8468. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 1:45:56 AM
Did you make it to court?
Nope. But the lawyer says if I write an excuse and ask for a new date it'll be OK. I'll tell them my lawyer is to blame (which is not far from the truth, actually. After all, even if I didn't make it, he was supposed to. And he didn't, because - long story).
They may charge me for wasting their time.
8469. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:00:29 AM
I must say, never in the history of warfare has there been a war crime so eagerly anticipated before, during and after it supposedly happened, as Jenin. The battle of Jenin was purposely stage managed by the Pals so that it would turn into a massacre that The Independent would make a feast over.
Muhammad a-Durah. Beit Jalla. Nativity Church. Jenin. What do you expect the IDF to do? What would any other army have done? The murderers of your children hole up in Jenin RC. You try to go in without mass destruction. They kill 23 of your soldiers. So you fucking let loose. So we didn't use F-16s. We used D-9s. Fuck Yasir Arafat for encouraging his men (men?) to use their own women and children as human shields. Fuck the Palestinians for agreeing to do it, the poor bastards.
Saddam Hussein used the same trick in the Gulf War, with that command and control center he turned into a shelter: I don't think anyone has figured the ruse out to this very day. This all reeks of a Saddam/Arafat play.
8470. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:35:40 AM
I have a feeling that we are going to be treated to several long weeks of Palestinians digging down into the rubble of Jenin with their bare hands and pulling out bodies. The IDF may have fallen into a trap - not so much by killing the fuckers, as by trying to cover it up afterwards.
This is starting to look like a major disaster for Sharon. But I could be wrong.
This TNR report is also interesting, though a few days old. In case anyone was wondering how the Pals happened to come to the Church of the Nativity:
As recently as one month ago you could find Ibrahim Ebayat, leader of Bethlehem's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and his gang of gunmen hanging out around the Church of the Nativity, boasting that "the Israelis would never dare come into this area--it would be a propaganda defeat for them in front of the world." And indeed, four weeks ago when Israeli tanks entered Bethlehem, they refrained from invading the old part of the city, emboldening Ebayat's forces. But this time Ebayat and his men--along with fighters in Nablus and Ramallah--fell into what looks like an Israeli trap. Tanks, armored personnel carriers, snipers, and infantrymen have caged the guerrillas into each of these sites--Manger Square in Bethlehem, the casbah in Nablus, and Al Manara Square in Ramallah. "The Israelis played it smart," says one Palestinian journalist. "All the gunmen from Fatah fell into the trap. They have killed many of the leaders, and many of the rest are surrounded."
8471. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 4:20:18 AM
Joe's so cool. I was certain the Axis of Evil would have a go at him sooner or later. He's cool and shy. If I was a woman I'd want him. Women love the shy types.
8472. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 4:45:01 AM
You know, I must say this: Arafat and Saddam and Bin Laden are a trio of dramatic geniuses. I'm serious. Think of the images these guys created: the burning oil wells of Kuwait... the planes ramming into the World Trade Center... the boy shot dead by 'Israeli' gunmen in Gaza as the Italian film crew happened to have its camera fixed on him... and now the blackened corpses of Jenin.
They are very good at what they are doing, these people. Hitler, too, was very good at stage managing. Churchill personality and speeches were sublimely dramatic. Herzl was actually a playwright: that is probably why he had his dramatic beard, and why we have pictures of him in dramatic poses. That is why he went to meet with the sultans and kaisers: because he created a role for himself and acted it. He was not afraid to do drama on a worldwide scale. You need masses in order to make great political changes, and masses are won over, and made enthusiastic, and driven to action, through drama.
But look at the US and Israel now. What could possibly be less fulfilling, aesthetically, than those black and white explosions filmed from the planes' bomb bays? What a total fiasco, theater wise! Where is the American and Israeli drama - other than in their scenes of bereavement and loss? Even the Hizbullah films its every katyusha. Why don't we have films of Israeli special forces in action? What kind of morons are running this show?
>>>
8473. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 4:46:31 AM
>>>
I think IDF spokesman Kitrey is, or should be, on his way out. A brilliant advertiser, Moti Morel, was recently hired to be special advisor to the Israeli government on its PR, but he doesn't seem to have made much of a difference yet.
For a people famed for their artistic and communication ability, Israel is doing a remarkably bad propaganda job. Bunch of ugly talking heads with bad English is all we can come up with. Oh yeah, and one smarmy guy called Netanyahu. A walking oil slick.
One big problem: we have lost all sense of glory. Men can no longer be heroes, because they would have to be special for that, and we don't do special anymore. We do equal, remember? Men are just male people. Women can't be heroes, because you always wind up feeling sorry for them when they die. We're so fucking advanced, we've lost our virility, our honor, our dignity even. Glory? Another macho concept. Who needs it? We're in it for the equality.
Well, turns out that a sense of glory and drama is essential for victory. If it's all the same to you, if you're beyond those childish concepts - you've lost.
8474. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 5:01:27 AM
This kills me. You check into your regular porn site, and what do you get? Candles, and a message saying the site is closed for Memorial Day.
Only in Israel.
8475. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 6:03:07 AM
From the Economist:
... senior Israeli and Palestinian delegations, with Yossi Beilin and Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) in the teams, met at Taba to try to work out an agreement. They got far closer than Mr Barak and Mr Arafat had at Camp David. The two teams exchanged ideas, presented maps, and bargained thoughtfully.
.. nothing was officially written down. But fortunately Miguel Moratinos, the European Union's envoy to the Middle East, was an observer at the conference, taking notes. These, after consultations with both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides, were prepared as an EU “non-paper”, so called, and published last February by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
The Moratinos non-paper
8476. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 7:52:06 AM
An example of how the NYTimes editorizes on its front page.
BUSH SENDS AIDE TO SPEAK AT RALLY TO QUELL A GROWING FUROR
...as if, the liberal NYTimes knows or cares what conservatives think.
Only interested in an attack on President Bush.
8477. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/16/2002 7:59:49 AM
8478. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:49:00 AM
Your Tax Dollars At Work in Jenin - Lives Reduced to Rubble target=NEW
8479. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:51:18 AM
...as if, the liberal NYTimes knows or cares what conservatives think.
Reply 1 - Posted by: pub_crawler, 4/16/2002 2:52:19 AM
Nuke Mecca.
As if...
8480. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:58:17 AM
From the NyT Article above -
"But even as Mr. Wolfowitz spoke, Secretary Powell was announcing that he would meet on Wednesday with Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader who is the focus of the conservatives' ire."
This is the same nut case that ordered a CIA brown op on Hans Blix, head of UN's Iraq Weapons Inspectorate.
8481. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:02:35 AM
So much for the "moral clarity" required of an honest broker.
Moral muddle, dishonest broker, geopolitical incompetent.
8482. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 9:20:10 AM
DRUDGE has a number of links to leftist, neo-Nazi British newspapers on the battle of Jenin.
The power of the bulldozer.
8483. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:42:47 AM
Their first tents were erected pretty much at the same time the United Nations (news - web sites) was founded, on the premise that wars of conquest should become a relic of history.
Until the Jewish Fascists Came
8484. transient1a - 4/16/2002 9:46:43 AM
Yes, especially the one from the Guardian:
GUARDIAN: THE LUNAR LANDSCAPE THAT WAS THE JENIN REFUGEE CAMP...
You should read it carefully.
8485. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:09:40 AM
Bush Policy Shift 4,900
After the crowds had dispersed, after Paul Wolfowitz returned to Condo in tears from the boos he received, after Bush hailed the Israeli "withdrawal", Bush called Sharon to tell him that "immediately" meant "now" but that "is" didn't mean "is"
8486. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:20:58 AM
There is such a thing as the freedom of exhaustion. Some people are so worn down by the yoke of oppression that they give up... the oppressed must never allow the conscience of the oppressor to slumber... To accept injustice or segregation passively is to say to the oppressor that his actions are morally right.
Martin Luther King
8487. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:21:40 AM
No sleep for RebbePike
8488. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:25:09 AM
8489. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 10:31:25 AM
PoJ: try doing target="new". even jexster has got the hang of it. You do this: 
This is off topic, but: does anyone know what happens when you take, say, turkey breast that's been defrosted and freeze it again by mistake, then defrost again? Is the result dangerous?
Please answer before I cook and eat it. If sakko says it's safe, I'll be sure to dump it all in the garbage, of course.
8490. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:34:35 AM
Joe,
No doubt Arqhi can explain this seeming incongruity.
The guy in the picture is a sicko. His child should be taken away from him if I were Queen of the World.
There is no incongruity in that picture and my response to your statement about "the Arab mind."
BTW, another FYI (all this seems like news to you), I would imagine the "peace" sign is a victory sign.
8491. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:35:13 AM
How goes the sleep Rebbe?
8492. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:36:09 AM
Eat up..if its kosher its kewl
8493. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:36:15 AM
Of course with Joe's reasoning, no need to bother about the child. She's got a dark Arab mind from birth, so removing her from the exposure of that sort of thinking by her father would be of no avail.
8494. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:37:33 AM
Seriously tho Rebbe, its probably safe but the texture of the meat will be for shit....expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction etc. destroys fiber
8495. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/16/2002 10:39:14 AM
8496. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:39:19 AM
Se zol dir grihmen in boych!
8497. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:44:43 AM
The King David Hotel massacre shocked the conscience of the civilizedworld. On July 23, Anthony Eden, leader of the British opposition Conservative Party, posed a question in the House of Commons to Prime Minister Atlee of the Labor Party, asking “the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the bomb outrage at the British Headquarters in Jerusalem.” The Prime Minister responded: “…It appears that, after exploding a small bomb in the street, presumably as a diversionary measure-- this did virtually no damage-- a lorry drove up to the tradesmen’s entrance of the King David Hotel and the occupants, after holding up the staff at pistol point, entered the kitchen premises carrying a number of milk cans. At some stage of the proceedings, they shot and seriously wounded a British soldier who attempted to interfere with them. All available information so far is to the effect that they were Jews. Somewhere in the basement of the hotel they planted bombs which went off shortly afterwards. They appear to have made good their escape. “Every effort is being made to identify and arrest the perpetrators of this outrage. The work of rescue in the debris, which was immediately organized, still continues. The next-of-kin of casualties are being notified by telegram as soon as accurate information is available. The House will wish to express their profound sympathy with the relatives of the killed and with those injured in this dastardly outrage.”
8498. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:52:13 AM
RebbeP
You are right, Sharon's Kommando Unit 101 was a terror unit of the IDF.
In 1953, Ben-Gurion established Commando Unit 101. This all-volunteer unit was responsible for the Kibya massacre. The first, and only, commander of Commando Unit 101 was Ariel Sharon.
Sharon maneuvered the resignation of the professional commander of the Israeli paratroops along with Commando Unit 101 and into Unit 202 of the Israeli Army.
The Government of Israel at the time claimed that the Kibya Massacre was performed by “civilian Jewish settlers.” But the historical record shows that it was sanctioned by acting Prime Minister Moshe Sharrett, and was planned by Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon, the Chief of the General Staff Mordecai Maklef, and the Chief of Operations, General Moshe Dayan, in concert with vacationing Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion.
I.L.Kenen, the founding father of AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee), revealed in his Memoirs:
I was on my way home on the subway, headed for Riverdale, when I heard a brief news flash in the World Telegram disclosing that 66 Arabs had been killed at Kibya as Israelis sought to avenge the slaughter of an Israeli family. I did not know until years later that the raid was ordered by Ariel Sharon, the Israeli commander who led the invasion of Lebanon in 1982.
8499. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:58:41 AM
This Sound Familiar???
Forty-seven years ago, Ariel Sharon led a raid on a West Bank village that killed about 70 men, women and children, most of them civilians. The villagers have not forgotten....
Sharon claims his soldiers made sure each house was empty before setting off the explosives. Mustafa Kutna, 91, believes the contrary. "Whenever they heard voices or a sign of life in a house, they destroyed it. Sharon buried people alive in their houses," he said.
In one instance, a family of 12 was wiped out. There were also cases in which the men fled but left behind their wives and children. One such man won't talk to reporters to this day because of his shame and grief. About half the victims were women and children.
The Kibya Massacre - An eye for an eye - Salon
8500. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:01:11 AM
And Bush says this murderer is "a man of peace".
More evidence, sadly, that the President of the US is a mental and moral defective
8501. concerned - 4/16/2002 11:11:39 AM
Re. 8466 -
Not really; Mustafa Kemal Ataturk used similar techniques to convert Turkey into a nominally secular state after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
8502. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:36:35 AM
Not even a lousy crumb of kreplach
Israelis Starving Palestinians
8503. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:57:41 AM
RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Israeli tanks rolled into three Palestinian suburbs of Jerusalem and re-entered a West Bank city Tuesday, a day after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) promised the United States he would withdraw soldiers from most Palestinian areas by next week
Bush Hails Sharon Withdrawal Plan
8504. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:21:13 PM
Israel's Coming War Within
Crocodiles. Armpits.
8505. jexster - 4/16/2002 12:24:57 PM
The Nativity Desceration
Pope John Paul (news - web sites) ll on Monday called Father Ibrahim Faltas, a senior official who is one of those holed up in the church, in an effort to raise morale among the clergy, Faltas told The Associated Press.
"He said that he prayed for us, feels for us and does his best to end this crisis," Faltas said.
8506. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:31:35 PM
The Hatred Europe Cannot Shake
Excerpt:
The resolution destroys whatever shreds of credibility were left to the UNHRC after the fiasco of the Durban anti-racism conference. The commission is made up of some of the world's worst human rights offenders. Fewer than half are free countries. Neither the United States nor Israel are on the commission, but 14 Muslim nations are. Naturally, dictatorships and absolute monarchies sided with the Palestinian Authority.
Gee, Jex. How does it feel to be on the side with the worst human rights records in the world?
8507. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:52:56 PM
Saudi: Homicide Bombings Not Terrorism
How do you respectfully tell this guy that he doesn't have a fucking clue?
8508. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:06:22 PM
How do you respectfully tell this guy that he doesn't have a fucking clue?
Last night Bush told Sharon that one of his top objectives was to end the Israeli seige of the Church of the Nativity.
Today, per a telephone report from clergy in the church, Israeli troops opened fire on the Church.
8509. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:06:50 PM
Hell, and you don't even have to do it with respect!
8510. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:08:05 PM
The UNHCR has been charged with the care of the PAL "refugees" ever since Sharon and his butchers displaced them (temporarily) 53 years ago.
8511. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:11:00 PM
And it certainly appears that Zionism=Racism.
If it looks like a duck, etc.
I know the Arabs. They are not impressed by helicopters and missiles. The worst curse is 'May your home be destroyed. Ariel Sharon
8512. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:11:43 PM
Gee concerned how can you not "be on the side" of the UNHCR?
8513. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:33:43 PM
Actually, from reading a couple of the Jenin pieces linked here, my impression is that even if they do find 100 or 200 people under the ruins and half turn out to be civilians, a lot of people will still understand the Israelis. The recurrent testimony is that we really only started heavy demolition after 23 of our soldiers were killed. And it seems the Pal terrorists have managed to make themselves quite unpopular in the world. Somehow.
8514. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:38:05 PM
Jexster:
The texture doesn't matter that much. And I've destroyed it some more because I let the meat marinate in water for over an hour, because I had to go watch the fireworks for Independence Day with the kids.
Texture will not be this turkey dish's strong suite.
8515. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:38:55 PM
Or suit.
8516. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:42:26 PM
Pelle:
Your country voted for this UNHCR resolution? Do you have anything to say in your defense?
8517. Andonly - 4/16/2002 2:58:26 PM
"Ando, remind me - why aren't we taking the Saudi plan seriously?"
It calls for the return of all or many refugees (not clear); and the promise of "normal relations" (as opposed to "full normalization") is not explained. (Israel has asked for clariifcation.) Syria and Lebanon won't tolerate not getting rid of their Pals, Israel can't tolerate taking them, and Israel has no way of ensuring that if it agreed to the plan and withdrew settlemnets, the same old coalitions of Arab radicals, or new ones, operating quietly under cover of their respective Jew-hating governments and supported completely by the Arab masses, would not simply perpetuate the status quo vis-a-vis The Zionist Entity.
Or so I read the situation.
8518. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 3:20:34 PM
From the NYT story on Pals in Jordan, linked above:
"The reason for this fantastic attachment to Palestine is partly because the Arabs encouraged it," said Kamel Abu Jaber, a retired Jordanian foreign minister and a peace negotiator. "To say, let's settle them, let's absorb them, was considered treason and still is."
8519. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:11:39 PM
As the racist Butcher of Bethlehem's sturmtruppen riddle the Church of the Nativity with bullets and Sharon pisses on him yet again, George Bush, geopolitical and homiletic incompetent, is preparing another Major Sermon on Terror.
And the world is not holding its breath
8520. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:13:13 PM
I give Saddam Hussein six months, if that.
8521. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:15:10 PM
Bet me.
Boob-in-Chief's Iraq Policy in the Crapper
Let's review the bidding before I take your money Ronsk.
8522. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:18:38 PM
1. No state in the region will host an invasion force, not Kuwait, not Turkey, not Saudi Arabia.
2. No state in the world, not even Britain, will support an attack on Iraq
3. US forces are tied down in Afghanistan.
4. The Middle East will erupt in flames
5. There is a huge split not only between Powell and the wackos at DoD but also within DoD. The Generals want 300,000 troops on the ground preceded by massive bombing. DoD is leaking like a sieve
6. The contract is 7NT doubled, vulnerable...
Your lead.
8523. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:21:59 PM
1. Bibi tells U.S. Congress Saddam Hussein is months away from smuggling weapons of mass destruction out of his country, into the hands of terrorists, and thus into the U.S.
Game over.
8524. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:31:57 PM
Bibi Netanyahu???????????????!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I forgot one thing...the Brits shit canned their report because their MI-5 couldn't stand behind it.
8525. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:33:18 PM
Several weeks ago, Iraq and Kuwait signed an agreement in which Iraq agreed to respect the sovereignty of Kuwait. The foreign minister of Kuwait, Sheik Sabah al Ahmed al Jabbar al Sabah said his country is now "100% satisfied," adding that he had written the agreement himself. A spokesperson for the United States nonetheless exhibited skepticism. The U.S. is not about to be deterred simply because Kuwait is "satisfied." What is Kuwait, that it should participate in such a decision?
It is clear that, at this point, almost no one supports a U.S. invasion of Iraq: not a single Arab state, not Turkey or Iran or Pakistan, not Russia or the great bulk of Europe. There are, to be sure, two notable exceptions: Israel, which is cheering Bush on, and Great Britain--or rather its prime minister, Tony Blair, who declared last weekend in Texas that "doing nothing ... is not an option" with regard to Iraq. Yet an article in The Observer last month reported that "Britain's military leaders issued a stark warning to Tony Blair last night that any war against Iraq is doomed to fail and would lead to the loss of lives for little political gain." LAT
But I guess Bibi Netanyahu runs US foreign policy.
At least its clear that Bush doesn't...
8526. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:36:49 PM
The Iraq situation was always more complicated than some made it seem
As I have caused a Mote infritata by arguing for months now.
8527. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:37:22 PM
Actually, I suspect Iraq is one area where Bush really is running things. The other is taxes.
8528. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:38:44 PM
Few American analysts doubt that a core of key administration officials remains deeply committed to ousting Saddam by whatever means practicable.
But the Palestinian-Israeli crisis has pushed many other foreign policy issues to the side and made it harder, if not impossible, for Bush to seriously consider a military move any time soon against the Iraqi leader, they say.
Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) is now enmeshed in an open-ended Mideast mission, seeking an Israeli-Palestinian cease-fire that could revive peace talks. Bush is also seized with this issue, which could dominate his international agenda indefinitely.
There is no sign Bush has made key decisions to implement a new Iraq strategy, like massive troop deployments or providing military aid to Iraqi opposition groups, experts say.
RHETORIC FADING
The U.S. anti-Saddam rhetoric has been muted, and even Washington's staunchest ally in the war on terror, Britain, has grown increasingly uneasy about a move against Iraq.
Claiming.
7NT bid and made.
Dbl vul
8529. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:39:38 PM
You also said Bush made a terrible mistake by putting Iraq in play which caused oil prices to rise after Hussein stopped pumping. Except that they started to fall a few days after you made that post, and Saudi Arabia is increasing production.
8530. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:42:59 PM
I never EVER said that Bush made a terrible mistake by putting Iraq in play which caused oil prices to rise after Hussein stopped pumping
In fact I said that it has been known for months by US and Saddam that Saudi would do just that.
What I said was that Bush fucked up by making Saddam more popular than ever; less vulnerable than ever, and that Saddam wasn't aiming to jack oil prices but rather aiming to further jack his position vis-a-vis other Arab states.
That's what I said.
That's what I still say.
8531. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:44:27 PM
That's what he did.
"O Supreme Ruler, how do you take the latest threat from Bush?"
"Shaken not stirred."
8532. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:44:44 PM
Bush wants Saddam out.
Bush (one) believes Saddam will make a U.S. city partially uninhabitable in the not too distant future if he is not removed, and the president will not permit that to happen on his watch.
And (two) he is going to finish what his father started, especially after the attempt on his father's life.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
BTW, I'm not sure I'm on board with Bush on this, but I sense this is what is happening. The punditocracy claiming otherwise only convinces me of the likelihood of the foregoing scenario.
But we'll see.
8533. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:46:04 PM
Maybe you are right about one thing Ronski...Bush is running the Iraq Op....
Just look how fucked up it is.
8534. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:46:13 PM
No, that's not what you said. But then you denied making murderous statements directed against Serbs, too, despite having done so in your fawning over Clinton's war.
8535. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:48:54 PM
That is exactly what I said.
In response, if you care to look for itI don't go there except to wreak Holy Vengeance, in response to some assinine caterwalling from Caligula the very day Iraq announced the oil cut back.
Hell the Saudis said they'd make up production, and OPEC at its last meeting said that no state would be allowed to jack prices for political reasons.
That is the current state of the facts.
Go find the message.
8536. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:52:07 PM
You oughta be thankful that Father Goeffrey's got me in a good mood today Ronski...
BERLIN (Reuters) - White House national security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) was quoted Tuesday as saying President Bush (news - web sites) had not yet decided on military action against Iraq, although he wanted President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) to go.
"We believe that a change of regime is the best solution. The world would be safer if this man were no longer there," Rice told Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily in an interview released ahead of publication Wednesday.
She said Washington wanted Baghdad to readmit U.N. weapons inspectors without conditions, but doubted if Saddam would do so.
8537. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:55:55 PM
Bush Irrelevant - As I said 4 weeks ago
David Mack, a former U.S. diplomat now with the Middle East Institute, said Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s assault on Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) had backfired, making Bush, not Arafat look "irrelevant."
"This is a serious blow to U.S. influence in the region, and in the long term it is also bad for Israel," he added.
8538. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 4:59:42 PM
Rustler
I know nothing about the UNHCR resolution. Please link it. What I do know is that jexster's statement ...
The UNHCR has been charged with the care of the PAL "refugees" ever since Sharon and his butchers displaced them (temporarily) 53 years ago.
.... is another example of his profound ignorance. The UNHCR has nothing to do with displaced Palestinians. And it's actually 54 years ago. And Sharon was in his teens then. What colossal bumfuckling (TM stostosto) nonsense jexster is producing every hour, every day!
8539. Andonly - 4/16/2002 5:01:02 PM
"1. No state in the region will host an invasion force, not Kuwait, not Turkey, not Saudi Arabia."
Qatar.
"2. No state in the world, not even Britain, will support an attack on Iraq"
Britain does already.
"3. US forces are tied down in Afghanistan."
US forces are capable of fighting at least three wars simultaneously, possibly four.
"4. The Middle East will erupt in flames"
Not without Egypt, which is determined to stay out of a conflagration, not least becasue it is completely dependent on US aid.
"5. There is a huge split not only between Powell and the wackos at DoD but also within DoD. The Generals want 300,000 troops on the ground preceded by massive bombing. DoD is leaking like a sieve"
You never know why a particular fact is being leaked, though, do you? DoD always wants more than it is granted. I would guess this is its way of attempting to get it. And depite the State-Pentagon split, it looks like we will be going to war with Iraq, sooner or later.
"6. The contract is 7NT doubled, vulnerable..."
I don't know what this means.
8540. Andonly - 4/16/2002 5:01:38 PM
From Middle east News Online (Qatar), emphases mine:
The United States and Britain have been shuttling between Arab and European allies trying to drum up support for an attack against Iraq.
...
General Tommy Franks, the top commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East called Saddam Hussein a long-standing threat to the international community, and his removal from power is the only solution.
"Saddam Hussein has been a problem for his own people and has been a problem for the international community for a long time," he said.
When he was asked about a broadcast report that pointed to a plan underway at the Pentagon for a possible U.S. military invasion of Iraq, perhaps by the end of this year.
General Franks disputed the report.
The report said the Pentagon is already establishing a second air combat command center in Qatar in the Persian Gulf to back up facilities now in Saudi Arabia.
It also said supplies, munitions and equipment are being moved to Qatar to prepare that facility and that General Franks will re-locate from his headquarters in the southern U.S. state of Florida to Qatar to run any war against Iraq.
8541. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:03:15 PM
Collosal quibble about nothing Pelle.
Palestinians outside the UNWRA area of operations
such as those in Iraq or Libya, are considered to be of concern to the UNHCR...
So fucking what's your point?
8542. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:04:24 PM
And Sharon was 27 during the Kibya massacre when he headed commando unit 101.
He was involved IN HIS TEENS in pro Zionist activities, some say killings, during WWII.
8543. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:04:47 PM
Silly assed Swede
8544. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:05:31 PM
toys
8545. Andonly - 4/16/2002 5:06:43 PM
"The guy in the picture is a sicko. His child should be taken away from him if I were Queen of the World."
I've got a slide show you should see Arky, to get a sense of how many "sickos" you'd have to separate from their children in order to reorder the world properly. Do you want to provide an email address where I can send the file?
8546. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:07:19 PM
I'lll gvie yuo something uzeful to do Sweede..
Correct the spelling errors in the above.
8547. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 5:20:48 PM
No thank you, Andonly. I can tell you plenty of home-grown stories from right in my small, sparsely populated area that would match your slides and make you sick, and I've seen and heard more than enough up close and personal. It's irrelevant to the point of my post, though, unless you think your slides support Joe's very general statement about Arabs based on the one picture he linked.
8548. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 5:25:35 PM
"I'll give you something useful to do Swede"
Always your humble servant if I can help your troubled, ambling mind.
Admit it, jexster. You are not out to get Sharon, your are out to get Bush. You are so transparent.
8549. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 6:00:54 PM
Pike: I don't understand your <>new<> post to me. Picture didn't appear.
DOD TRANSCRIPT of remarks at Pro-Israel Rally by Assist. Sec. of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
Notice how the official transcript leaves the boos intact.
8550. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 6:19:48 PM
The hardest part about the Israeli-Palestinian conlfict is not really what is spoken of directly, it is in the topics that are rapidly shunted aside. There are a few givens that the players refuse to accept:
1. The US and Britain will not allow a democratic pro-Western regime with strong cultural ties to them to be pulled down whether by direct attack or attrition. No single nation [and damn few even theoretically possible alliances] can match the US/Britain and their reliable allies in power, be it military, social or economic. The force or attrition needed to alter this policy would spark a devastating counter-blow before the strategy could rise to a level to effect change. Thus Israel survives.
2. Palestinians will not be assimilated into neighboring states in numbers significant enough to remove the pressure to create their own state. Thus, the Palestinians will always be the Israeli's neighbors, in one form or another.
3. The conflict has taken on a life of its own and it is now impossible to redress every legitimate grievance suffered by the innocents in the area, let alone those who bear some responsibility in the conflict, even if the will and power could be summoned simultaneously.
4. Neither side can live with the other in the same system, as the emotional landscape is so poisioned that the mutual trust and respect needed for the social contract is not likely within the next generation. Thus both settlements in WB and Gaza cannot remain, and no "right of return" is possible that places people on the "wrong" side of the fence, so to speak.
8551. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 6:20:11 PM
5. The political leadership on both sides is dependent on the conflict for its hold on power, and large egos are in control on both sides of the conflict.
6. Both sides heavily recruit outside support in money, diplomacy, military hardware, create complications and disruptions that reach beyond the region, and use religious/emotional/political blackmail to insure their struggle is subsidized by outsiders. At the same time, the parties routinely snub the other governments that support them, appealing to the religious/emotional/political blackmail issues that resonate with the public in other nations to insure that the displeasure of other world leaders does not result in any action that would hamper the continuation of the conflict.
7. Efforts to isolate the problem are confounded by economic and strategic needs of neigboring states and world powers, and the parties threaten these needs in order to preserve the conflict.
8. Similar efforts are made to isolate and marginalize reasonable people of good faith who would attempt to resolve the conflict, including outright assasination when necessary.
8552. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 6:23:27 PM
9. Everybody wants all of Jeruselem and nobody will get it.
10. Someday, the rest of the world will reach a breaking point, and a solution will be imposed if the parties cannot break the cycle they are repeating. Neither side will like the solution. Neither side will be able to do anything about it.
8553. jexster - 4/16/2002 6:29:28 PM
The Pentagon is trying to establish an air base in Qatar.
Once they have. Once they have resolved their debate with Rummy over the Battle Plan. Once Wolfiewitz and his ChickenHawks managed to quel opposition from Powell, the Generals and State. Once Al Qaeda stops attacking our forces in Afghanistan. Once Bush gets unstuck from that fat tar baby Sharon.
Then DoD can install the Troop Transporter Device in Qatar because no country bordering Iraq will allow us in.
Of course, we'll fight our way in - Once we nuke Mecca.
WACK
8554. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:00:09 PM
The Mote's Own Rustler Pike On the Move Against the Terrorist Monks of Bethlehem
8555. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:09:55 PM
The WarLord of Moral Clarity has sent Congress an official waiver of the anti-terrorism act in order to permit funding of the PLO without interference from Congressthings in need of cash for reelection campaigns.
Shouldn't have booed Wolfie-wit
8556. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 9:45:36 PM
Don't even go there, Jex. No money will be given to the current PA.
8557. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:56:52 PM
Bullshit. Check the Washington Post or Times in the morning.
Speaking of idiots Rose,
Compared to presidents named Bush, Dale Carnegie was a slacker when it came to cementing instant friendships with a crinkly smile and a firm, manly handshake 
George Bush - Geopolitical Nicompoop and His Soul Visions
8558. Andonly - 4/16/2002 10:06:14 PM
"It's irrelevant to the point of my post, though, unless you think your slides support Joe's very general statement about Arabs based on the one picture he linked."
It's not irrelevant at all. I'm saying I can show you lots more pictures like the one picture he linked, but worse. I'm saying that Joezan's very general statement about "the Arab mind" were of course too sweeping, but not by as much as you'd like to believe.
There is enormous support in the Arab world for suicide bombing. The masses in major Arab states are enraged that their governments have not already declared war on Israel. Moreover, the degree of antisemitism--sheer, outright Jew-hatred--that appears manifest in the Arab world is staggering.
You know how the Republicans hate Clinton? The quality and texture of that hatred? Now imagine a continent full of that, but aimed at "the Zionist Entity". And realize that they teach this to their little kids, to their high school students, and to their college students. Very energetically.
8559. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 10:07:25 PM
No, any money will go to re-education of PAL children....
...To stop the current NEA of Palestine
8560. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:14:07 PM
Yea right....Rosie the morrow will tell whether your literal asytigmatism is as severe as Bush's moral one.
Meanwhile, Sharon continues his belly laughs at the World Historical Joke from Texas
As Secretary of State Colin L. Powell prepared to end his peace mission, Ariel Sharon made clear that the Israeli dragnet through the West Bank was not over.
Now, immediately, pwetty pwease, you hot hunky man of peace..
8561. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:33:58 PM
Andonly, in your post you didn't specify Arab pictures, and I automatically misinterpreted that post as a statement about the plight of the world in general. I didn't realize you were referring to them alone.
I'm certain the degree of antisemitism in the Arab world is deep and extensive, and I fully understand that you're far more aware of it there, and probably here, than I. I am also very well aware that the extent of the feeling is far greater than anything ever aimed at Clinton. I live in the country targeted by 9/11 too, and though I don't believe the Palestinian issue was more than a tacked-on convenience for bin Laden to gain more Arab support, it's obvious that the issue was one capable of accomplishing that.
None of that changes the fact that it doesn't serve anyone to demonize either side as a whole and Joe's comment was racist.
8562. joezan - 4/16/2002 10:36:38 PM
Arky:
It's irrelevant to the point of my post, though, unless you think your slides support Joe's very general statement about Arabs based on the one picture he linked.
I think you know, as Ando pointed out, that my "very general statement" is based on much more than that photo. But that was sort of the last straw.
Have you really failed to notice that in just about every news report on the WB situation - tv, radio, paper...whatever -there is some commentary from the "Arab street", and that in damn near every one of them, these people are proclaiming for all the world that they are preparing to sacrifice their sons and daughters as human bombs?
Isn't it a little odd that not one person in that crowd of thousands of supposed adults would grab that fucking psycho by the ear and say DON'T USE YOUR CHILDREN TO HELP YOU MAKE YOUR SICK FUCKING POINT!?
This is a sickness - incontrovertible evidence that there really is such a thing as mass psychosis.
It is as sick - or sicker, even - than any Klan rally.
8563. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:36:46 PM
I should have applied context to my reading, btw, and your post would have been clear.
8564. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:38:56 PM
I agree it's sick, Joe. I said so very plainly. I don't deny it's widespread. Widespread does not equal the all-inclusiveness of your comment.
8565. joezan - 4/16/2002 10:49:18 PM
Heh - wonder what the Arab Street will have to say about this:
BERLIN - A girl who was paraded at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in Berlin wearing a mock explosives belt around her
waist has touched off an investigation by justice officials.
Police are seeking the man who carried the girl on his shoulder at Saturday's protest, presumably her father, Berlin judicial
spokeswoman Ariane Faust said Tuesday. Prosecutors have opened an investigation that could lead to criminal charges
against the man for condoning acts of violence, she said.
Photos published in German newspapers showed the girl, apparently about five years old, with three sticks meant to
resemble dynamite strapped around her waist .
Interior Minister Otto Schily, the German government's top law enforcement official, called it an "outrageous" abuse of a
child as an "advertisement for terrorist acts."
"This was open promotion of murder," said his Berlin city council counterpart, Eckhart Koerting.
About 11,000 demonstrators took part in the protest against Israel's military campaign in Palestinian areas.
8566. sakonige - 4/16/2002 10:55:04 PM
No cease-fire possible
"Instead of cooperating with the Israelis we are preparing for when they attack," Amin al-Hindi, director of general intelligence told UPI in an exclusive interview in his compound in Gaza, one of the few official buildings in Gaza not decimated by Israeli munitions.
"We are human beings here," al-Hindi went on, "everyone is thinking in the service of his family and saying let's be prepared and prepare ourselves for what would happen when the Israelis come in and invade Gaza so it is not what happened in Jenin."
8567. Andonly - 4/16/2002 10:55:17 PM
Arky,
See POJ's link in 8559, which contains the images I would have sent you.
Of course, pictures don't tell you everything you need to know to figure out what someone else is thinking. For that you need to log onto MEMRI and some English-edition Arab newspapers. But the whole-society brainwashing that goes on in the Arab world is amazing and intense. Read MWEMRI transcrips of al Jazeera broadcasts.
Or look at the discussion forum of the Daily Star sometime; the mentality of most of the posters is, frankly, incredible. It makes Newt Gingrich and Ken Star look like eminently sane, rational men. When some few Lebanese attempt to speak rationally online with the ragers--about any one of Lebanon's myriad problems that have nothing whatever to do with Israel--they get accused of being "filthy Zionists" and "traitors" to their country. And this stuff isn't debatable, either: you can bet the Mukhabarat is reading every word, and can trace emails at will.
"Filthy Zionist traitor" is the default, government-approved pejorative for Arabs from Cairo to Damascus to Riyadh. Even suggesting that Israelis are human apparently is evidence of traitorousness.
8568. sakonige - 4/16/2002 10:56:07 PM
Message # 8557
In Washington late Tuesday, President George W. Bush waived a law that forbids the United States from doing business with the Palestine Liberation Organization.
"It is important to the national interests of the United States to waive the provisions of section 1003 of the anti-terrorism act of 1987," said the short order issued by the White House.
The order is valid for six months after which the president will have to issue another waiver.
Section 1003 of the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1987 "prohibits to receive anything of value from, expend funds from, or establish an office for the PLO."
Such waivers have been issued regularly for the last several years and is the second issued by President Bush.
8569. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:03:09 PM
Oh, and before you point out that internet forums are not representative, or that outrageous screeds and propaganda published in major Arab papers don't necessarily reflect what ordinary people think, I must tell you that this is not what I hear from first-hand sources in Beirut. What I'm told is that there, people overwhelmingly still believe that 9-11 was carried off by the Mossad. People buy into what they read, which provides them a convenient, larger than life, eternal enemy. And it is the Arabs' political and religious leaders who foment this stuff, deliberately.
8570. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:11:47 PM
From MEMRI:
Friday Sermon on Palestinian Authority TV
The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon delivered by Palestinian Authority Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi[1] at the Sheikh 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City, broadcast live on April 12, 2002 by Palestinian Authority television:
"…Oh, beloved of Allah. [In the Friday sermon] two weeks ago, I bore in your name a blessing of love to the crowns upon our heads, [that is] to the Arab and Muslim rulers. Among other things, I said: 'Oh crowns upon our heads: If Sharon spat in your faces, what would you do?' Today I apologize for these words, because Sharon has not only spat on the heads of the nation, but also trampled us underfoot."
"We are convinced of the [future] victory of Allah; we believe that one of these days, we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, enter Haifa as conquerors, enter Ramle and Lod as conquerors, the [villages of] Hirbiya and Dir Jerjis and all of Palestine as conquerors, as Allah has decree… 'They will enter Al-Aqsa Mosque as they have entered it the first time…'"
"Anyone who does not attain martyrdom in these days should wake in the middle of the night and say: 'My God, why have you deprived me of martyrdom for your sake? For the martyr lives next to Allah'…"
"Our enemies suffer now more than we do. Why? Because we are convinced that our dead go to Paradise, while the dead of the Jews go to Hell, to a cruel fate. So we stand firm and steadfast, in obedience to Allah…"
(cont.)
8571. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:12:21 PM
"The Jews await the false Jewish messiah, while we await, with Allah's help… the Mahdi and Jesus, peace be upon him. Jesus's pure hands will murder the false Jewish messiah. Where? In the city of Lod, in Palestine. Palestine will be, as it was in the past, a graveyard for the invaders – just as it was a graveyard for the Tatars and to the Crusader invaders, [and for the invaders] of the old and new colonialism…"
"A reliable Hadith [tradition] says: 'The Jews will fight you, but you will be set to rule over them.' What could be more beautiful than this tradition? 'The Jews will fight you' – that is, the Jews have begun to fight us. 'You will be set to rule over them' – Who will set the Muslim to rule over the Jew? Allah… Until the Jew hides behind the rock and the tree."
"But the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, a Jew hides behind me, come and kill him.' Except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews."
"We believe in this Hadith. We are convinced also that this Hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the land…"
"Oh beloved, look to the East of the earth, find Japan and the ocean; look to the West of the earth, find [some] country and the ocean. Be assured that these will be owned by the Muslim nation, as the Hadith says… 'from the ocean to the ocean…'"
"Oh Allah, accept our martyrs in the highest heavens…"
"Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day…"
"Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters…"
"Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land…"
"Oh Allah, forgive our sins…"[2]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi is a Palestinian Authority employee.
[2] Palestine Television (Palestinian Authority), April 12, 2002.
8572. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:26:28 PM
"This is a sickness - incontrovertible evidence that there really is such a thing as mass psychosis."
I have no problem with this assessment. But I presume you know that this sickness comes from a lack of freedom (of speech, of thought), that the US is perversely beholden to those forces that spread the sickness, and that Israel is now being made sick as well.
Another few decades of reactionary politics and the orths will have Israel looking like Iran.
8573. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 11:37:51 PM
POJ-
That slide show is fishy- swallow your delicate sensibilities and look at the 'internal organs' in held up triumphantly in one crowd scene. They look remarkably dry, and there isn't any blood etc. on the hands of the guys holding them. If the corpses were fresh, there would be blood and interstitial fluid. If they were fairly old- there would be some autolysis products on them. I seriously doubt that someone caught up in bloodthirsty revelry over the death of a hated enemy would clean up either the body parts or themselves before doing their little macabre dance.
8574. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 11:42:40 PM
Seems odd to me, but maybe there is a window of time where the "parts is parts" process of human death is neater than my experience.
8575. arkymalarky - 4/17/2002 12:19:35 AM
Andonly,
The mindset is disturbing, it is far too pervasive in Arab nations, and it has put the US in a delicate position, but I've read and reread the propaganda from both sides, along with measured, reasonable reports and analysis (and reasonable internet forum comments), and I know that it will take every ounce of reason from all the leaders with an interest in the region who can possibly be reasoned with to have a hope of resolving the current situation without catastrophe.
Sharon and Arafat are both responsible for the current state of impasse. Sharon has known what he was doing from the beginning, and whether Arafat's the crazy-like-a-fox genius RP seems to think he is or someone who's lost control and is trying lamely to maneuver the best position to maintain both his leadership and his life, he's left the Palestinians with no one to look to for hope and statesmanlike guidance. And even if he could effectively lead the Palestinians, his hands are dirty from past ills if not present, and in the minds of most Israelis they can never really be clean.
The US role in all of this has been unfortunate, imo. Had Powell been able to travel to the ME earlier, before hostilities had risen to such a pitch, at least some kind of moderation might have been achieved enough to allow talks to proceed.
I think Friedman's column last week or the week before outlining what needed to be done was right on, and now, at this point, I don't think anything short of some sort of an international action mandating and enforcing concessions will work, and I don't think that option will work either.
8576. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:25:02 AM
PoJ:
When linking, instead of writing < a href="www.whatever.com" >, write < a href="www.whatever.com" target="new" >.
That way the link opens in a new window. It's more user-respectful somehow.
8577. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/17/2002 12:34:38 AM
Jones- Thoughtful comments above and your conclusions are dead on.
". . . Not all rage, as now united, shows
More hard unkindness, unrelenting,
Vengeful malice, unrepenting,
Than heaven-illumin'd Man on brother Man bestows." [Burns]
8578. arkymalarky - 4/17/2002 12:36:37 AM
BTW, Andonly, your MEMRI excerpt is fascinating and disturbing. Thanks for providing it and the info on the source.
8579. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:40:33 AM
Jones:
I remember that footage: it was from around the time of the Ramallah lynchings. At the time, the TV commentator said the organs were of dead Palestinians, and that these guys were, like, mourning them somehow, but I guess maybe the other interpretation makes more sense (sense?).
And there is blood on those hands, most clearly on the guy in the back holding his fists up.
This is obviously a culture of death, like the ancient Egyptian one. These guys want to die. They are telling us - "kill us - we can't take this humiliation anymore".
8580. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:51:12 AM
Ando:
Amazing stuff from that PA sermon.
Don't you see this is how Arafat runs the terror show? This is much more effective and real than if he physically strapped the bomb belt on the martyrs, or paid the Al Aksa Martyrs 700 NIS per bomb. Don't you see this is not a case of "he can't stop it", or "he doesn't want to stop it", but of "he loves it, he has dreamt of it for decades, he willed it into being and is now making it happen"?
These kinds of things don't just happen, any more than Nazism just happened. Nuh uh. Mass national movements of suicide/homicide don't just happen. They are not born of chaos. There is a TV camera in that mosque, there is a production crew, there are staff meetings, there are officials in charge, there is a boss. His ugly mug is all over the billboards and he owns a Nobel peace prize, which he stores next to his cache of RPGs.
Btw, I think Yasir's eternal bodyguard is dead. He used to always appear in back of Yasir, wherever, whenever. He doesn't anymore. I remember reading a trusted bodyguard of his had been killed.
8581. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:57:34 AM
Good stuff from Wolfowitz, PoJ:
We gather here today to stand with Israel in this time of trial. The people of America have always had much in common with the people of Israel. Like the people of Israel, we value human life and liberty. We deplore the deliberate killing of innocents. And I believe in my heart the majority of Palestinians do as well.
But since September 11th, we Americans have one thing more in common with Israelis. On that day America was attacked by suicide bombers. At that moment every American understood what it was like to live in Jerusalem, or Netanya or Haifa. And since September 11th Americans now know why we must fight and win the war on terrorism.
8582. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 1:06:30 AM
Pelle:
See connie's link from Message # 8506.
Wasn't the UNHCR, it was the UNHRC. My mistake.
8583. Jonesatlaw - 4/17/2002 1:50:09 AM
Pike- the image I have is poor, and dressing it up with the image program I have wasn't very helpful. It could very well be blood on the hands in the backround, but I was struck by the lack of gore on the guy in the foreground. He doesn't look very triumphant either.
The culture of death does seem to be abroad in Israel/Palestine, but I think that the attitude is closer to 'if I cannot defeat you, come closer, let's die together'
8584. concerned - 4/17/2002 1:51:14 AM
You know how the Republicans hate Clinton? The quality and texture of that hatred? Now imagine a continent full of that, but aimed at "the Zionist Entity". And realize that they teach this to their little kids, to their high school students, and to their college students. Very energetically.
Andonly -
Your animus toward Republicans has really compromised, in a rather ludicrous way, the point you were attempting to make here. The 'Republicans' don't 'hate' x42 much, if any, more than many Democrats do. Clowntoon has richly earned the contempt he's held in by many in both parties.
The difference is that Republicans have not been constrained by party loyalty to stifle their dissatisfaction with that supremely corrupt person.
8585. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 2:00:14 AM
I love how the Republicans and Dems hate each other. There's something very human about democracy, very visceral. It's not at all the wussy concept it's made out to be, in comparison with dictatorship. Quite the contrary, I'm thinking.
You guys hate each other even more than the Israeli Right and Left do, I think. Israelis don't go all the way with anything, except maybe religion. Everything is thus coated with a veneer of self-interest. People are less independent as individuals, it seems, and anyone can be bought for a shekel or two. Americans are a lot more sincere.
8586. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 2:07:38 AM
A dictatorship is one person with a lot of slaves. A democracy is a lot of people thinking and acting together. That's why they move slower and are worse at feinting, jabbing, and rope-a-doping. But once they do move, they are undefeatable. Because essentially, at a certain point, a war between a democracy and a dictatorship turns into a war between a million people and one person.
That is why dictatorships start wars, and democracies end them.
That is probably why the War on Saddam will most likely be a reaction to Saddam scudding Tel Aviv, and not the other way around.
8587. concerned - 4/17/2002 2:12:48 AM
A 'scorched earth' Marxist Revolutionary ideological approach has influenced the rhetoric and tactics of the Democrat Party since its radicalization in 1972, resulting in such things as identity politics and other agendas which were originated to a surprising degree by the American Communist Party more than half a century ago with the goal of weakening American society.
One example of this is the demonization of Republicans that I pointed out in this very thread.
8588. Jonesatlaw - 4/17/2002 2:27:37 AM
concerned- The democrats were far more 'radical' in 1932 than 1972. Identity politics is alive and well in the Moral Majority whose focus is on theological identity rather than racial or ethnic.
The greatest difference between American political parties is the constraint of the 'two party system' which lumps Fritz Hollings and Paul Wellstone in the same camp, likewise John McCain and Jesse Helms are in the same camp. But few other countries have parties with such broad divergence of ideology or zealotry.
8589. Jonesatlaw - 4/17/2002 2:32:18 AM
sheesh- guy outta proof read more carefully when it's late:
read
"in the Moral Majority wing of the GOP..."
and "between American political parties and those elsewhere..."
Any assertion that the democratic party is purposely focused on the destruction of the country, or continues to be the dupe of the American Communist Party, earns you an invite to the tinfoil hat party.
8590. concerned - 4/17/2002 2:44:56 AM
Any assertion that the democratic party is purposely focused on the destruction of the country, or continues to be the dupe of the American Communist Party,....
That's neither what I posted, nor what I believe. I posted that these early radical influences continue to provide the template for a significant amount of the partisan behavior and rhetoric of Democrats. As a matter of fact, I don't believe most of them are conscious at all of the original intent of such stratagems, and thus, in thoughtlessly resorting to them, have actually had them ultimately work against their own interests.
8591. concerned - 4/17/2002 3:11:19 AM
The US as a whole is probably more conservative than it was thirty years ago. That tells me that the Left hasn't done a very good job of constructively advocating its policies to the American public, and I think this is a major reason why.
8592. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 3:29:43 AM
In any case, Israeli democracy is quite different, though quite as democratic and liberal as American democracy (in some things less, in some things much more than it).
Israeli party politics has its rather recent roots in a socialist system - adopted even by the most right-wing and liberal parties -which amalgamated all aspects of life into party-affiliated organizations. We still have such outdated institutions as the Jewish Agency, whose directors receive the exact same salaries and perks as gov't ministers, and who are appointed proportionally by the parties who happen to be in the government (I think. Something like that). Construction conglomerates are linked to newspapers which are, in turn, linked to certain parties. All sport clubs have political sponsors: Hapoel is labor, Beitar is Likud, Maccabi may have something to do with the archaic Liberal Party (which may still exist within the Likud somehow, existence meaning someone somewhere is drawing a salary and receiving benefits and rights). Imagine if the Mets belonged to the Democrats, and the Yanks were a Republican team.
Labor has its schools and its kibbutzim which need to be bailed out economically once in a while, the NRP has its schools, Shas has its myriad institutions: everyone here is on the payroll, somehow. Likud seems to be the least socialistic of all of the veteran parties here, but it has its youth movements, student unions, etc., and is probably linked to one of the Health Service Providers, through which we are all insured here.
And there is much less money to go around here than in the US, even now, and everyone knows your sister, and everyone is up everyone's ass.
>>>
8593. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 3:30:24 AM
>>>
This affects political behavior, of course. The result is that even your otherwise intelligent, well-off Israeli is a much more sycophantic, cowardly individual - politically speaking - than your average American with similar credentials. Zionism was the only ideology out here, and it was everywhere, crammed down people's throats from infancy, to make sure they did what had to be done for Zion: serve in the army, die if necessary, live frugally, share. This was an all-powerful and pervasive ideology, much more demanding than, say, American liberalism or conservatism. Eventually, as Israel became more sure of itself, and less dependednt on motivating its masses through ideology, Zionism got itself a bad name. Oslo and its illusion of peace and acceptance gave added impetus to this process. People hardly use the word 'Zionism' in earnest nowadays. So there's no ideology at all now: just materialism.
That's one of the reasons I can't get Katzirites to come to a rebel demo. I ought to get these guys a translation of Emerson's (Thoreau's?) Civil Disobedience.
8594. jexster - 4/17/2002 9:42:18 AM
Sharon Just Says No to Bush: Imperial WarLord Taught Lesson in Humility and Humiliation target=NEW
8595. jexster - 4/17/2002 9:43:42 AM
8596. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:13:46 AM
That's a funny article.
Reporters typically have a few minutes each weekday to ask Bush questions, at the beginning or end of White House meetings where photos are allowed. But no such opportunities have been provided since April 6 in Texas. Two days later, Bush spoke his last substantive words on the Mideast, declaring: "I meant what I said to the prime minister of Israel. I expect there to be withdrawal without delay."
8597. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:15:11 AM
First time Israel has said 'no' to the US.
Heh heh.
8598. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:18:06 AM
Israeli Siege of Nativity; Just Say No to God (inside report)
8599. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:24:24 AM
That church must smell worse than my house.
I liked this:
Using powerful loudspeakers, the Israelis soon began to bombard those inside the church with sounds of approaching helicopters, tanks, barking dogs.
8600. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:25:33 AM
I plan to use Jimmy Page, Jimmy Hendrix and Keith Richards on the Arab neighbors after taking over Katzir.
8601. Property of Jesus - 4/17/2002 10:26:56 AM
8602. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:52:33 AM
Cairo -- In a sign of a widening gap between the Arab world and the United States, President Hosni Mubarak's chief spokesman accused the Bush administration of "playing this game of double standards" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
[Sigh} Remember the Good Old Glory Day's - King Poppy's Krusade Against Saddam?
Ancient history.
8603. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:53:44 AM
Rebbe...what did youse do for "Israel Independence, PAL Oppression Day"?
Eat that rancid turkey?
8604. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:54:18 AM
Kill a Christian for kreplach?
8605. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:56:09 AM
Damn I love that stuff. Must be part Jewish.
The dry, biting wit, the intolerance, the thinly disguised contempt for lesser beings and races, circumcised, curly hair when I had hair at any rate.
Whaddya think?
8606. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2002 11:01:32 AM
Rustler
I liked your #8592-93.
8607. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:07:14 AM
Ye free, ancient country
You rest on your memories
of days great and past
Morning Pelle!
8608. Andonly - 4/17/2002 11:08:17 AM
"Your animus toward Republicans has really compromised, in a rather ludicrous way, the point you were attempting to make here...."
I have no animus toward Republicans. Even vote for them about 1/3 of the time. My problem is with right-wing ideologue hysterics, who are no more useful to the nation, and are just as pumped full of shit, as left-wing ideologue hysterics. My dream of universal retribution would be to have Al Sharpton and Rush Limbaugh sewn together at the mouth, put in a barrel, and sent to Saddam Hussein in a package designed to explode upon opening.
So many innocent minds could be spared...
8609. concerned - 4/17/2002 11:10:24 AM
Heh, heh.....
8610. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:17:56 AM
They laughs aren't over
Saudi Prince to Meet Moron at Armadillo Ranch Next Week
Boy just think how BORING it would be but for the Coup 2000
8611. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:18:16 AM
BORE-ing
8612. jexster - 4/17/2002 12:40:14 PM
Bush Humiliated
Powell Looks for Israeli Withdrawal
8613. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 3:41:42 PM
Property:
It works! But the article is a bit to complex for me, a relative uninitiate, to follow.
Pelle:
Thanks, I was hoping someone would enjoy them. For some reason I was able to crystallize some thoughts about Israelis that were on the tip of my mind for a long time. Years.
8614. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:19:07 PM
RP -
I appreciated those posts, also. I wouldn't have thought that somebody like Pelle could, however.
8615. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:26:07 PM
8616. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:28:27 PM
8617. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:32:17 PM
8618. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:41:52 PM
8619. Andonly - 4/17/2002 5:54:04 PM
"Mass national movements of suicide/homicide don't just happen. They are not born of chaos. There is a TV camera in that mosque, there is a production crew, there are staff meetings, there are officials in charge, there is a boss. His ugly mug is all over the billboards and he owns a Nobel peace prize, which he stores next to his cache of RPGs."
Well, Pike, this is all quite true. But you still seem to think Arafat would remain the leader of the Palestinians, or would have over the Oslo period, had he successfully divorced himself from those preaching martyrdom and endless struggle.
Think of the rest of the Arab world's strong men. How far can they go toward conciliation before they get knocked off or their masses are screaming for Jewish blood in the streets? In Egypt, especially, you see exactly what I think happened in the territories: the leadership ceded some power to those who oppose him, thereby remaining firmly in power. But the extent to which the opposition gained control of the direction of "state" policy differed, probably for a host of reasons. Arafat has never had Mubarak's sort of army behind him, capable of subduing his own people en masse. He could not afford to exile religious militants and maintain a united front against Israel; Egypt, at peace with Israel, had no such burden.
Once again, I don't doubt that Arafat has been behind suicide bombings, especially recent ones, in the sense that he signed checks, and even had some control over some players at various points in the dsense that he could order a stop. For a while. But he has not had the degree of absolute control you imagine, not since the Oslo process began. He is not, in other words, Hafiz Assad. He only stays on top by allowing his boys to blow up periodically. Given that constraint, it's hard to imagine him not embracing the radicalism he claims to be beyond.
8620. Andonly - 4/17/2002 5:54:25 PM
What I'm saying is, you can't look at whatever was found in Arafat's office this week or last and conclude, Aha! He was masterminding this all along! There are fluctuating degrees of control, irrespective of intent. The key is that even if he weren't backing Al Aqsa and Hamas and collaborating with Hizbullah and Iran and getting arms money from the Sauds, he would be powerless to stop this. There are other leaders, they're always competing for succession, and Fat has to keep them on his side, just as they must in Cairo and Riyadh.
On the other hand, it isn't impossible at all that the entire current campaign began about two years ago with the Israeli withdrawal from Beirut, that it was planned with Arafat's full consent, and that Clinton/Barak nearly threw a wrench into things with that pesky Camp David proposal. Thus the necessity for the intifada, as a distraction while the real arms were ferried in.
8621. Andonly - 4/17/2002 5:56:00 PM
Those were some very strange and funny pics, Concerned, especially the one with the pig. Wanna clue us in?
8622. jexster - 4/17/2002 6:03:33 PM
Even as Arafat's popularity soars, Arab solidarity grows and Bush MidEast policy is more desperately confused than ever
So goes today's lead in to Mr. Republican Lou "Moneybags" Dobbs today on CNN.
Thank you Arik!
8623. jexster - 4/17/2002 6:05:16 PM
Mubarak begged off a meeting with Bush's Secretary of State claiming "he was indisposed"
Had an important meeting with the Greater Giza Ladies Club
8624. concerned - 4/17/2002 6:10:47 PM
Re. 8621 -
Arrrggghh! And they're disappearing! IAC, they're Photoshop magic performed on a photo of a Pallie protester from fark.com.
8625. concerned - 4/17/2002 6:37:49 PM
Oops. Now I see them all. When I posted my last, two were not showing up.
8626. jexster - 4/17/2002 6:44:59 PM
Good going TDaschole...you'll take Condo's job for sure.
8627. jexster - 4/17/2002 7:07:45 PM
The condescending mealy mouthed apologists in the Israeli foreign minsitry are looking ever more ridiculous.
Today they insulted the Holy Father. Replying to the Papal request that the Pope be allowed to Bethlehem to minister to Catholic victims of Israeli terror, the foreign ministry said that the Israeli government did not think that this was something that the leader of a billion Catholics should sully himself with the defense of Christ's birthplace.
8628. jexster - 4/17/2002 7:09:10 PM
Cut just the military portion of our aid to Israel and there'd be peace in a week.
And backcharge the remainder to repair the damage their illegal invasion of Palestine caused.
Let's stop screwing with these dirtballs.
8629. wonkers2 - 4/17/2002 10:37:04 PM
tonight on Chris Matthews' "Hardball" one of the masterminds of the Israeli war against Palestine, Sharon's adviser, Dore Gold, who looks like a character out of the Addams Family, confirmed Israel's position on the settlements: they are legal, and Israel has a more valid claim to them, out of security needs, than do the Palestinians. He also refused to even open the door a crack on the issue of a Palestinian state. If peace depends on people with his mentality, don't hold your breath.
8630. wonkers2 - 4/17/2002 10:51:41 PM
tonight on Chris Matthews' "Hardball" one of the masterminds of the Israeli war against Palestine, Sharon's adviser, Dore Gold, who looks like a character out of the Addams Family, confirmed Israel's position on the settlements: they are legal, and Israel has a more valid claim to them, out of security needs, than do the Palestinians. He also refused to even open the door a crack on the issue of a Palestinian state. If peace depends on people with his mentality, don't hold your breath.
8631. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:58:43 PM
Break out your readin glasses Rosie ole girl..
You'll need them to see with moral clarity
The Bush administration said Tuesday that it would allow the Palestine Liberation Organization to keep an office here for another six months, but it warned that the PLO could be kicked out and have funding cut if Yasser Arafat fails to crack down on terrorism.
The announcement by President Bush came as Secretary of State Colin L. Powell wrapped up his Middle East peacemaking mission. So far, Powell has been unable to clinch agreements on a cease-fire or an Israeli troop pullout from battle-scarred Palestinian cities.
In a memorandum to Powell, Bush said it was "important to the national security interests of the United States" to waive the provisions of a 1987 law that imposed restrictions on PLO activities.
The six-month waivers have been routine since 1994, after the PLO and Israel recognized each other. But Bush has come under increased pressure from pro-Israeli groups in the United States to punish the PLO and Arafat, its chairman, for a wave of Palestinian suicide bombings in the Jewish state.
8632. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:59:59 PM
Screw Israel...
Bush wants to go to Baghdad, he bulldozes the Jewish oppressor settlements and packs Sharon off to the cell next to Slobo
8633. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:05:12 PM
Fresh Evidence of Jenin Attrocities
8634. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:07:52 PM
Bethlehem Monks Defy Israeli Terror Machine
T. Friedman wants Gandhi's...look no further than the business end of IDF Merkava's at Jesus's Birthplace.
8635. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:08:58 PM
Brother Mark Boyle staggers in, carrying a cardboard box full of Israeli rockets.
Brother Mark, a softly spoken 60-year-old monk from near Newcastle upon Tyne, came to Bethlehem to teach English at a Vatican-funded university. That was until the Israeli missiles slammed into the university buildings, blowing great holes in the wall and tearing apart classrooms
8636. joezan - 4/17/2002 11:12:34 PM
I think Ando was right all along - Bargouti is poised to be the next Pal leader. He's apparently done all the right things...
Will the real Marwan Barghouti stand up? How does a man change within a brief two years from promoting peace with Israel to being a mass murderer of civilians?
Palestinian sources who know Barghouti said the Fatah secretary-general was merely taking care of business. In the early- and mid-1990s, Barghouti rode on a crest of popularity that challenged Arafat and stressed democracy. It was during a time when Arafat's regime, based on his aides brought from such places as Iraq, Tunisia and Yemen, was seen as utterly corrupt and failing to provide basic services to the people. During the current Palestinian war against Israel, Barghouti needed to stress his combatant nature — again to challenge Arafat's half-hearted calls for ceasefire or peace talks.
Palestinian Authority documents captured by Israel and confirmed as authentic by Barghouti paint the war horse as a bumbler rather than the smooth combatant he has sought to portray. Barghouti cared little for discipline and urged all Palestinians to bomb and kill Israeli civilians. Simply put, those who were most successful received the grand sum of $100. Arafat signed on every terrorist purchasing order.
8637. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 11:45:45 PM
Ando:
I really do not have a schoolteacher's patience, and that's what one needs with you. Look: anyone can build a theory and buttress it with irrelevancies. But any reasonably observant person looking at Arafat's ugly mug, at his record, at his clothes, at the way he talks, at the way he froths with obvious glee each time there is Jewish blood spilled, at the way he runs his operation, at the way he does everything he does, would never ever think that this guy was anything but a dirty scumbag archterrorist, and the dominant, hyperactive, symbolic and actual and organizing and coordinating and motivating force behing this terror war. It is the logical culmination of his career, and Oslo was a ruse. the Pals have said so on numerous occasions: we are the Trojan horse, etc. Yet you insist on interpreting the situation differently.
This guy is a thug. He runs the dirtiest thug operation in the world. He founded it, on the year I was born. It is now at its murderous peak. He is at his murderous peak. Yet you insist, for over a year now, on portraying him as a bumbling old fogey who may be stupid, mean, whatever, but is essentially a benign if corrupt bureaucrat who, above all, just wants to survive. I can't waste my energy trying to convince you otherwise: I don't think anyone but you actually believes any of this crap anyhow. You so totally and profoundly misunderstand and misinterpret what is obvious to anyone who ever graduated kindergarten that I am starting to doubt whether you are as sharp an individual as I had previously thought. Let's wait and see how the Bargouti story plays out: that guy was your protege, remember?
God, I wouldn't want you running the organized crime task force in my town. "Capone? He has to do these things. Otherwise his men will rise up and kill him. But Bugsy Siegel, there's one we can work with."
8638. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 11:57:46 PM
Read joezan's link, people. To me, it reads a lot like a description of the way Nazi organization worked.
This is what follows what joe quoted above:
The results were increasingly violent. Barghouti ordered Jewish motorists killed outside Jerusalem and instead the victim was a Greek Orthodox monk. By early this year, Barghouti simply ordered his men to crash wedding and bar mitzvah celebrations in Israel and mow down revelers. Later, Barghouti organized women suicide bombers to blow themselves up in Israeli cities.
Israeli officials said the documents have already been relayed to the CIA and Defense Department. They said the documents were also discussed with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, who held talks in Israel this week. The documents will also be discussed during Israeli-U.S. strategic talks later this month in Tel Aviv.
A PA security memorandum blamed Barghouti for the chaotic nature of the war against Israel. The memorandum by the General Intelligence Agency said Barghouti's methods have led to divisions within Al Aqsa.
"Marwan Barghouti had a significant role in their situation reaching this level since he assured everybody who contacted him, that the responsibility of the brigades in [the West Bank city of] Tulkarm will be his if he works and proves that he worthy of it," a PA memorandum released by Israel said. "The recent activities [of the insurgents] was conducted in this trend."
>>>
8639. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 11:58:48 PM
>>>
In some cases, the documents assert, several different groups claimed credit for operations to obtain money from Arafat. In one document, Arafat was asked to approve $2,500 for three leading terrorists in the West Bank.
"Among the armed squads there are many parasites and people with narrow interests who suddenly appeared in their ranks," a Fatah document said. "These people have become a financial onus on the organization since they demand financial allocations, ammunition needs."
Memo from Josef Arafat to Rudolf Bargouti: the operations are too chaotic! Put some order in the operations! First you kill a monk, then you crash a Jew party - what's happening here?
8640. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 12:00:21 AM
Last paragraph in #8639 was mine.
8641. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 3:01:03 AM
Here's a surprise. Arms from Iraq found in Arafat's compound. Doubtless brought there by the Palestinian 'street'. Po' Yasir just had to go along, or they'da killed him.
I tell you, that Pal street is a ruthless dictator, with no regard for its leadership. They'd sacrifice their own President for their own selfish interests!
8642. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 3:04:20 AM
The street even made use of the incontinent, bumbling President's helicopters to smuggle the weapons in!
(he thought those RPGs were just oversized vibrators for his oversize butthole! Naive man)
What a disgusting thing to do, street!
8643. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 3:05:54 AM
(Perhaps this is why Israeli tanks plowed up the streets of Jenin and Ramallah. They were executing the street!)
8644. Property of Jesus - 4/18/2002 8:27:25 AM
Hilarious to see Arafat bitching to American TV about his Israeli-enforced, three-room office living conditions, begging for help from President Bush, while two weeks ago he wanted to be "martyr" dying for his cause.
The odor of his companions must be getting to him.
8645. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 9:20:48 AM
You have a sick sense of humor!
8646. jexster - 4/18/2002 9:56:01 AM
IDF in No Hurry to End Nativity Desecration
Israel has frosty relations with some of the religious leaders, including the Greek Orthodox patriarch of Jerusalem and some Roman Catholic prelates, whom they regard as too sympathetic to the Palestinians, church officials said.
"Basically, things are very bad," said the Rev. Andrew Wright, the Middle East envoy for the Anglican church, who was dispatched to Bethlehem by the archbishop of Canterbury to try to help. Wright said he was barred from entering Bethlehem today and has been unable to persuade the two sides to meet.
Palestinians inside the church have said conditions there have deteriorated severely in recent days, with stores of rice and potatoes running out and the water supply running dry. Israeli military leaders gave a slightly different account, saying there is adequate drinking water in the church, although they declined to give details.
Meantime, two rotting corpses remain in the basilica and at least four Palestinians have been laid up with gunshot wounds in the grotto, the site underneath the sanctuary that is venerated as the exact location where Jesus was born. 
8647. jexster - 4/18/2002 9:57:46 AM
Happy "independence day".
Swine.
8648. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:01:11 AM
Psalm 69
21 They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
22 Let their own table before them become a snare; let their sacrificial feasts be a trap.
23 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see; and make their loins tremble continually.
24 Pour out thy indignation upon them, and let thy burning anger overtake them.
25 May their camp be a desolation, let no one dwell in their tents.
8649. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:19:28 AM
"Independence Day Entertainment" 
A group of several dozen peace activists show food to Israeli soldiers, as they are prevented from entering the Church of Nativity, in Bethlehem, April 18, 2002.
8650. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:22:15 AM
Chancellor of the Roman Catholic Church on the Nativity Seige - OnLine Transcript
8651. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:36:06 AM
Non Violence
Le pelican, symbole:
- du Christ qui nourrit le monde par son Corps, son Sang et sa parole";
- de la non-violence: le sacrifice de soi pour la paix du monde et la vie des autres
The Pelican Symbol of Christ who nourishes the world by his Body, his Blood, and his Word
no-violence: the sacrifice of oneself for the peace of the world and the life of others
8652. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:40:53 AM
Alexandria, Va.: Why aren't you doing more to get these gunmen out of the church? When you fail to demand that the gunmen leave you become complicit in their acts. You don't permit Israeli soldiers to live in your church. Why do you permit armed Palestinian gunmen to live there?
Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: It seems that you don't know exactly what is going inside the Church.. let me tell you briefly:
- Yes there are some gunmen inside the church, but there are also civilians, priests, sisters and members of the PA police who all asked for refuge inside the church because during the invasion of the Israeli army to the Nativity square they all risked to loose their lives.
- Since they are inside the church, therefore, they are under our protection because the church is an immune place.
- I can assure you 100% that no one of these gunmen used his weapon at all.. our condition for them to stay inside the church is not to shoot at all as we are asking also from the Army surrounding the church not to shoot on the church and respect the sanctity of the Holy Place.
- Now after 15 days we are in front of a dramatic situation: we cannot hand them to the army because they simply might be killed. WE cannot tell them to go out because we offered them refuge. It is up to the political leadership of both sides to decide their future and fate.. we wait and we will see.
- We just ask to have a peaceful solution without any scandal or massacre.
In one word: we are not protecting terrorists at all because these people are our people who's lives are threaten, and we consider them all as human beings who need our protection.. because already the Israeli invasion of the city is and aggression which is not legal nor moral.
8653. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:42:14 AM
Not legal.
Not moral.
Happy "Independence" day
8654. Andonly - 4/18/2002 11:00:55 AM
"But Bugsy Siegel, there's one we can work with."
No, Meyer Lansky was the one you could work with.
(One of those guys helped establish Las Vegas--I can't recall who, but I think it was Lansky, or maybe some minor gremlin.)
Joezan's link supports exactly what I've said, which you persist in misunderstanding, despite my repeated, slowly enunciated attempts to explain it to you.
Barghouti is not my "protege," as I have not advanced or protected his career, but I'm flattered you think me so influential. I have simply pointed out (contra your ridiculous assertion that Barghouti is a "nothing") that he has for years been second in popularity only to Arafat, was thought by the Shin Bet to be a moderate, was considered by Israel to be someone who could be dealt with (this has been reported quite widely, it's no secret), and probably had more control over Arafat than was obvious, since whoever fights corruption at the same time he kills Israelis competes for authority with the man who has his own aircraft and claims he wants to make peace with the Jews. Reiterated Enunciation Number 547: It doesn't matter whether Arafat wants to stop the suicide bombings. Did he yesterday, will he tomorrow? Who cares? He's irrelevant, incontinent, soon to be history.
Yes, Arafat is a thug. I have never denied it, not even briefly. But the power is not all in his hands, and this is what you don't get.
Maybe if you develop a subtler understanding of politics you'll manage to scamper to the top of the council in Katzir after all. Best of luck.
8655. Andonly - 4/18/2002 11:03:35 AM
"Yet you insist, for over a year now, on portraying him as a bumbling old fogey who may be stupid, mean, whatever, but is essentially a benign if corrupt bureaucrat--"
No, that's your strawman, not my characterization, not even close to it.
8656. betty - 4/18/2002 11:08:58 AM
andonly,
It's Bugsy Siegel who helped establish Vegas
8657. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:18:40 AM
Jerusalem -- For four days last week, Sgt. Abi ordered his squadron to fire anti- tank missiles at what his commanders said were terrorist bases in a refugee camp in the West Bank town of Jenin.
Watching the rickety plaster and mud-brick houses of the Palestinian colony crumble under the rockets, Abi said he prayed that at least one of his missiles would miss its target.
"This stupid war that we are waging, it's awful," he said. "Killing people, as many as possible --there is no point in this."
Israel's reluctant reservists torn
'Brutal campaign' weighs heavily
8658. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:20:28 AM
Is an arrest made during an illegal operation legal?
Is an arrest made during an immorral operation, moral?
8659. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:21:50 AM
If the offensive continues, you will see more people disobeying military orders," said Gad Barzilai, who teaches political science and law at Tel Aviv University.
8660. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:23:51 AM
"The Israeli propaganda says that we only shot at the houses that we needed to destroy," Abi said. "This is not true. I wish that it were only property that has been damaged."
8661. Julius Caesar - 4/18/2002 12:04:56 PM
Ah. Four days of peace.
Is it time to get NATO involved?
8662. Andonly - 4/18/2002 12:06:41 PM
"It's Bugsy Siegel who helped establish Vegas"
Now, see, I could have remembered that if only I had kept my movie lore straight.
8663. Property of Jesus - 4/18/2002 12:15:13 PM
IN THE END, Yasser Arafat got nothing...
ARAFAT'S ACT DOESN'T WORK WITH POWELL
8664. Andonly - 4/18/2002 1:26:45 PM
JC's link about NATO involvement raises a lot of good qustions, but I think it's a little unfair to expect Tom Friedman to expound on the precise nature of operations that might be employed to help create a Pal state and separate the Israelis from their enemies.
Yes, there's clearly a great deal of room for failure. But few among us are schooled in military matters, and I don't think Friedman has the inside scoop on what's posible militarily. (A better reporter of such matters would be Lawrence Kaplan.)
I would think that a NATO intervention, or any military intervention under US command, should be undertaken specifically and openly to protect our ally Israel and help the Pals establish a state free of Israeli occupation. Should the Pals employ their newly established country to continue attacks on Israel, the NATO force under US command should be fully empowered to attack Palestine, and bring it down if necessary. The Arabs would have to understand this going in, and agree to it. (They probably wouldn't.) And should terror groups use the intervention force for martyr practice before statehood was declared (assuming it was not declared going in, which might be preferable), the establishment of the Pal state should be delayed, or nixed in the UNSC by Washington. Subsequent to findings of significant non-cooperation by the Pals, the intervention force should be prepared to leave and turn the conflict back over to the IDF.
As for troop strength--what do you want to bet Europeans would want to have a hand in such an operation, for influence's sake, and that Arabs would be happier if troops were drawn from countries sympathetic to their cause? If anyone can put together such an arrangement, it's Colin Powell.
8665. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 2:33:16 PM
We've nabbed the Hamas guy who is responsible for over 100 Israeli deaths, including the Dolphinarium and the Passover Massacre.
God, I wish they give him the death penalty. We only did that once - to Eichmann.
8666. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 2:35:37 PM
Terror bombings have most certainly been reduced quite dramatically. But IDF sources expect another wave soon, then some quiet, then a resurgence around three months later.
8667. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 2:40:02 PM
Reiterated Enunciation Number 547: It doesn't matter whether Arafat wants to stop the suicide bombings.
Reiterated Counter-enunciation Number 622: but nobody's asking that. It would be like asking: do new Spielberg movies keep coming out because Spielberg doesn't want to stop them from being made, or because he can't stop them from being made?
8668. Property of Jesus - 4/18/2002 2:54:08 PM
Like Father, like daughter
CNN's Andrea Koppel's objectivity (Believes Palestinians are "Fair", not Israelis)
8669. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 3:46:14 PM
Why are you so much more willing to acknowledge PAL atrocities than IDF depredations? My impression, as a completely impartial observer, is that there is plenty of fault to go around on both sides.
8670. Andonly - 4/18/2002 4:37:09 PM
"Terror bombings have most certainly been reduced quite dramatically. But IDF sources expect another wave soon, then some quiet, then a resurgence around three months later."
I do think the conventional wisdom that the Pals will just keep coming may be wrong. You know, th business that more frustration = more suicide bombings. I figure they also need weapons and people convinced that the martyr methodology ultimately accomplishes something other than the plowing down of Palestinian hovels.
Not that your IDF sources don't make sense, and they should know; one would expect some leftover personnel to be active in spite of the recent rout in Jenin. If they're going to regroup it will take a few months and some international meddling to mak sure Israel is prevented from stopping them.
8671. Andonly - 4/18/2002 4:50:54 PM
A: "Reiterated Enunciation Number 547: It doesn't matter whether Arafat wants to stop the suicide bombings."
RP: "Reiterated Counter-enunciation Number 622: but nobody's asking that."
Please. The whole goddamned world outside the US still believes the man is Israel's "peace partner." That he "wants" a settlement. And your entire argument has been that he "wants" there to be suicide bombings. My point is that a) Fat is nobody's peace partner because he couldn't make peace if he wanted to, and b) he wants what his would-be sucessors dictate he wants. So he directs them according to their bidding, tells the proles and their children what the radicals want them to hear, and lies through his teeth to the world. He's a popular figurehead, but he is not the source of the script, and he retains legitimacy only so long as he remains a fighting revolutionary.
"It would be like asking: do new Spielberg movies keep coming out because Spielberg doesn't want to stop them from being made, or because he can't stop them from being made?"
If Steven Spielberg is under contract, they come out because he is obligatd to make them. Arafat is under contract. If he doesn't perform as saleably as Spielberg, he's history.
Of course, that may be less true now than it was before Israel rounded up some of his potential successors.
8672. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 5:56:00 PM
Sharon is stopping the suicide bombings. Arafat is under house arrest.
8673. joezan - 4/18/2002 8:22:03 PM
8674. Jenerator - 4/18/2002 9:01:55 PM
RUSTLERPIKE,
When you get a chance, go to www.endtimes.org and check out this Christian link on events in the Israel and how it is all part of the prophecies of the Book of Revelation.
Btw, XO.
These guys have a radio show and they're pretty convinced that the Arabs are going to attack Israel before the month of April is over, etc.
8675. sakonige - 4/18/2002 9:39:57 PM
death-wish religions suck
8676. sakonige - 4/18/2002 9:40:31 PM
disgusting self-inflicted disease
8677. sakonige - 4/18/2002 9:41:31 PM
fuck their god and everyone who worships it
8678. RickNelson - 4/18/2002 9:48:21 PM
Sakonige,
I've not been around a lot so I've not seen you around for a while. I've thought of you and hope you and yours are well.
8679. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 10:26:42 PM
Rick:
You interrupted sakko's prayer session with those positive vibes of yours.
8680. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 10:33:21 PM
Jen:
What's XO?
8681. sakonige - 4/18/2002 10:34:11 PM
It's not a prayer. I was just spitting on your graves.
8682. sakonige - 4/18/2002 10:52:49 PM
In Jenin, U.N. Envoy Witnesses 'Horrifying' Scene
> "What we are seeing here is horrifying - horrifying scenes of human suffering," said Larsen, who helped shepherd Palestinians and Israelis toward the 1993 Oslo peace accords. "Israel has lost all moral ground in this conflict."
8683. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 10:55:12 PM
Sakko:
It seems this battle of Jenin has got you so agitated you're actually linking articles.
I never saw you doing that before.
You must reeally be upset.
8684. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 11:04:46 PM
Jen:
Thanks for that link. I've always wanted to know just what it was the Christian prophecies prophesied. Is there general agreement on the basic interpretation of the prophecies? Like, when he speaks of a 7 year peace treaty set up by the Antichrist - is this something all Christians accept as a prophecy, or is it his specific take, or his denomination's? How divergent are the views on these prophecies, inside the Christian world?
8685. sakonige - 4/18/2002 11:18:54 PM
Message # 8683
I guess we don't use the same messageboards very much.
8686. sakonige - 4/18/2002 11:19:11 PM
any more
8687. concerned - 4/19/2002 12:53:57 AM
Death....or transformation?
How about death metal?
8688. concerned - 4/19/2002 1:01:17 AM
Rush Limbaugh - somebody both simpering Lefty Jews and Arabs can hate
8689. Property of Jesus - 4/19/2002 7:21:39 AM
I hope the American Jews have learned a political lesson on who their friends are.
8690. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 7:31:05 AM
Ando:
Spielberg films get made because Spielberg keeps dreaming up new movies and then making them happen. He loves his job, which is one reason he's so successful at it. He is a master, an icon, he has lasted for decades and never had a real challenger. Same thing with Arafat, but substitute 'terror attacks' for 'films'.
8691. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 7:32:09 AM
There's quite a sense of renewed security here. How long will it last?
8692. Wombat - 4/19/2002 9:01:45 AM
Not very long.
8693. Wombat - 4/19/2002 9:19:17 AM
President* Bush referred to Ariel Sharon as "a man of peace." Was he drunk?
Sharon is a brilliant tactician and miltary leader, but to call him a man of peace would be like calling Patton a man of peace. I cannot think of a politician who is less suited to lead Israel at this time than Sharon--well, not quite, Netanyahu in his current incarnation would be worse.
8694. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 9:35:56 AM
RP,
In a word, to answer your question to Jen on '84,
NO.
I find it appalling and disgusting that some Christians watch the death and destruction of both Israelis and Palestinians like vultures thinking they know the end is near and waiting to be sucked up into heaven, evidently completely unaware that their brothers in waiting have done the same thing at each major crisis in the area over generations.
Any Biblical expert who tells you he fully understands Revelations is either a liar or a moron.
8695. mgleason - 4/19/2002 9:40:22 AM
There's quite a sense of renewed security here. How long will it last?
Until Monday and the return of Jex.
8696. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 9:44:29 AM
Wombat, what's your guess on the number of bodies that will be found in Jenin?
I'm a bit worried about this: during the fighting, the Pals claimed there were hundreds of Pals killed (not just in Jenin) - they said 700 at a certain point - and the IDF seemed to agree with this. The estimates were 150 or 200 killed in Jenin. Then there were all those days when journalists weren't allowed into Jenin, and the IDF changed its estimate to 'a few dozen' killed. That looks to me like it could be a coverup. A literal coverup: with bulldozers. Or maybe it isn't. I guess the next few weeks will tell.
Looks like somebody saw all the bodies there, and went - "oh oh - this looks a lot like Sabra and Shatila. What do we do? What do we do?"
Yasir may have not have lost this round so badly after all. Both the White House and Israel could find themselves on the defensive in the coming months, and the terror may wind up reaching even more horrific proportions than it did in March before we are allowed to defend ourselves again. Ramallah, Nablus, Tulkarm etc. could all wind up turning into Jenins. Force 17, the Hamas, all the Pals' top forces (what remains of them), led by Yasir 'legend by candlelight' Arafat, will give us the worst of what they've got.
Otoh, if terror has been trounced as badly as it looks right now, I may wind up having a problem getting elected. Right wing pols don't do well in times of quiet.
8697. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 9:45:53 AM
mgleason!!!
8698. mgleason - 4/19/2002 9:47:14 AM
Hiya! I couldn't type for a while, but my doctor's given me the green light as long as I take it easy. It's good to be back.
8699. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 9:48:17 AM
Hey Maria! Hope you continue on the mend, and fast!
8700. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 9:48:58 AM
BTW, there's something about you in the Poetry thread you should read.
8701. Wombat - 4/19/2002 10:14:14 AM
Rustler:
The death toll will be more than the Israelis claim and less than the Palestinians claim. There will probably be many more civilian dead than combatants. Any tactical gains derived from disrupting a major source of terrorism will be more than offset by the propaganda and hatred and moral gains of the Palestinians. You already know that, however. In fact, it could have been predicted.
8702. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:22:20 AM
Wombat and RP,
How likely do you think it is that Netanyahu will succeed Sharon?
8703. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:24:59 AM
Joe,
If I show a WASP KKK whose child is dressed in a white robe and sporting a swastiga up next to an Afghan Muslim flying a kite with his child, what do you think I've proven?
8704. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 10:25:41 AM
If tactical gain means I can send my kids to school without worrying half as much about a Palestinian zombie tearing their guts out, I'll buy tactical gain. You would too. Anyone would. I could give a fuck what the Danes think about me. I don't care what anyone thinks about me, unless he's got his back against the wall and packs nukes. And the only country likely to fit that description in the coming decades is Israel. You know that.
8705. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 10:27:35 AM
How likely do you think it is that Netanyahu will succeed Sharon?
As likely as Jimmy Carter succeeding George W. Bush.
8706. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 10:30:59 AM
If I show a WASP KKK whose child is dressed in a white robe and sporting a swastiga up next to an Afghan Muslim flying a kite with his child, what do you think I've proven?
Nothing. Because the bombing of the WTC was not a reaction to fanatical KKK terrorists killing hundreds of Afghan civilians at Ramadan meals. Nor was the KKK headquarters located in the WTC, nor did the WTC put up much of a fight.
8707. Jenerator - 4/19/2002 10:40:24 AM
Arky,
Those are pretty harsh words. Christians since Christ's departure have been waiting and anticipating Christ's return. I don't see how they're bad for believing that the end is more near than ever when all of the signs point that direction. Granted, each generation has believed the end was near, but never before in history have so many prophecies come true, that have come true lately. (One world governement, etc.)
I do not sit and watch the events in Israel unfold like a vulture does its prey, but I DO watch it with a sense of impending doom and curiosity. Not because of the organization I linked to says it's near, but because the signs are all pointed that way and I am scared of what is going to happen next. Personally, I am distressed that the world community isn't recognizing Israel legitimacy and is instead condoning the suicide bombings!!
Secondly, I don't think that a Biblical expert is a moron or a liar if he understands the Book of Revelation. For me, it is extremely difficult to grasp because I am no expert. If I was, I am sure that I would understand more aspects fully like the tribulation,the rapture and so on. There are definitely different thoughts on the book with regards to what is symbol, what isn't and how each prophecy will play out. Ultimately, I don't believe that any of us will ever be able to predict when *exactly* the end will come, but if you use Revelation as any giude, we're closer than ever.
8708. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:40:48 AM
The point is not to contrast and/or compare two groups, be they Israelis/Palestinians or reactionary WASPS/Afghans--as you already know, RP. The very simple point is that pulling two pictures up of any group as Joe did shows nothing and is simply propaganda, and not very good propaganda at that.
Hitler loved children.
8709. Jenerator - 4/19/2002 10:43:18 AM
I never read that Hitler loved Children. I was always under the impression that he sort of observed them from afar. He certainly never showed any real compassion for them, even the Arian ones.
8710. Andonly - 4/19/2002 10:48:28 AM
"Spielberg films get made because Spielberg keeps dreaming up new movies and then making them happen. He loves his job, which is one reason he's so successful at it. He is a master, an icon, he has lasted for decades and never had a real challenger. Same thing with Arafat, but substitute 'terror attacks' for 'films'."
You'll never guess who was on Charlie Rose last night completely endorsing the Pikean view of Arafat as Lord High Controller.
None other than Bernard Lewis.
A recap of some notable remarks:
Lewis figures Iran and Iraq are now primarily responsible for driving Palestinian militancy as a means of deflecting the world's focus away from their own states in the wake of American rage post 9-11. He says it's working. Lewis believes there will be no peace in the mideast until the US deposes Saddam. He cited great popular support for the US in Iran, and the fact that 30% of Iraqis would be behind a US attack on Saddam, which is a much greater degree of support than we enjoyed from the Northern Alliance when we went into Afghanistan.
About Arafat, he says huge numbers of documents found by the IDF detailing the Chairman's planning and willing acquiescence to every aspect of the intifada and suicide bombings provide incontrovertible evidence of Arafat being the promoter of the current conflict, over which he has been in complete control all along. Fat's abandonment of Camp David in favor of the intifada, which Lewis concludes occurred not because Fat didn't like the deal (he could have offered a counterproposal but never did) came about becasue Arafat was afraid "peace would break out". In that case, Arafat would have become the tinpot dictator of a trivial backwater, and his career as a glorious revolutionary would be at an end.
8711. Andonly - 4/19/2002 10:49:05 AM
Lewis explained that the difference betweeen Sadat's peace overture to Israel in the 70s and Oslo-Camp David was that the Sadat deal was completely worked out in advance, in total secrecy, and facilitated--but not in any way mediated--by Roumania (under Ceaucescu) and another country I can't recall. The US didn't even hear about the peace-for-land deal until it was a fait accompli. With Camp David, Clinton's mediation gave each party someone other than each other to bargain with; so in essence, each side appealed to the superpower to obtain points.
Lewis was once a supporter of Oslo. He now says he was mistaken about that, and about Arafat, who only knows how to do one thing well, and that's be a terrorist.
On the subject of the settlements, he opined that the Likud's expansion of them had been what brought about the first intifada after about a decade of Pal quiescence under occupation. He said Pals before 1977 were bitterly divided over whether they wanted to be ruled by Jordan or the PLO--the Jordanian monarchy had slaughtered them en masse and the PLO were corrupt thugs. Israel was, he explains, "everybody's second choice".
Lewis said that settlements near the border of Israel were natural expansions of major population centers, but those further into the territories, near major Pal cities and in Gaza, should never have been built, didn't acomplish what they were intended to do wrt providing Israel security, and were "dangerous foolishness".
Rose said several of his guests had told him in the green room that they had been given top-level intelligence information that the post-Camp David intifada had been a result of freelancing by groups opposed to Oslo and a settlement with Israel, and that these forces were beyond Fat's control.
8712. Andonly - 4/19/2002 10:49:22 AM
Lewis said he didn't know anything about that and couldn't assess it, but reiterated the mound of evidence uncovered by the Israelis, convincing him that Arafat had always been in complete control of a tightly regulated, autocratic regime. And, he explained, there had never been on the Palestinians' part any desire to end their conflict with Israel. Any settlement that might be reached was always seen as temporary, until Israel could be eliminated.
He concluded his remarks by saying that Arafat is the problem, that reasonable Palestinians do exist, and that once Arafat is gone they will have a chance of being heard. He said he had talked to a prominent Palestinian (whose name he could not mention because to do so would endanger the man's life) who had said he supported the idea of an Israeli-Palestinian-Jordanian Benelux-type arrangement, in which Palestine would play the part of Luxembourg.
When asked if he thought Sharon was doing the right thing with his military strategy, Lewis said he didn't know yet, that there wasn't enough clear information to make that determination, but that it appeared Sharon had no long-term strategy, only tactics.
8713. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:52:28 AM
Jen,
but never before in history have so many prophecies come true, that have come true lately. (One world governement, etc.)
Study your history. "Signs" much more dramatic than this have been there in the past. What about when the Israelis got control of Jerusalem? Even WWII itself could be made to match much of what's said in Revelation. It's not that difficult to make obscure and symbolic writing fit a literal pattern of history at almost any point.
I don't think Christians will get to Heaven on a ladder of blood and it's wrong, not to mention ignorant and reducing religion to mere superstition, to look to the current deaths and suffering in the area with enthusiasm. That may not be what either you or the designers of that site are doing, but you certainly give that impression.
And a Biblical expert is a moron or liar if he says he understands it fully. He simply doesn't.
There are definitely different thoughts on the book with regards to what is symbol, what isn't and how each prophecy will play out.
Exactly.
Again, let me remind you that 20% of Palestinians are Christians. Not that it's in any way relevant to the actions of either side recently (some of us are able to see two sides), but as one who believes this is the sign of the end.
Ultimately, I don't believe that any of us will ever be able to predict when *exactly* the end will come, but if you use Revelation as any giude, we're closer than ever.
Even if you don't, it's necessary that as we progress in time that would be the case. I personally believe it's wrong to even speculate on it, but that's just my opinion.
I do not want to descend into a religious discussion, so you take the last word on it. I made my points.
8714. Wombat - 4/19/2002 10:54:27 AM
Rustler:
I hope you are right about Netanyahu.
Your short-term reduction of the chances of your child getting blown up will ultimately end up with Israel in a permanent state of mobilization, with all the social and economic dislocation that will accompany it, Israeli agricultural produce being embargoed by the European Union (your largest customer), and the distinct possiblity of escalation beyond that, in which Israel will become embroiled in a regional conflict that it will not be able to sustain. This will strip away whatever shreds of moral justification for Israel's existence remain, and may force Israel into a position where they might have to use their nukes.
You should read the Bible and the history of ancient Israel, and what ended up happening to it, and see if Israel has learned anything since then.
8715. Jenerator - 4/19/2002 11:06:24 AM
Arky,
I value your opinions and so I respectfully take what you have said. Please just know that I am not enthusiastic about what's going on in Israel. It is more scary than anything else, for me. You and I agree that the signs have been there, but NOW, more than ever, things have happened which have laid the path for even more signs yet to come. (yes, I am aware of history...I know full well that many people thought that Hitler was the antichrist, etc.).
I object mostly to your characterization of Christians who are watch the events unfold Israel with an underlying sense of doom and Biblical fulfillment as bad.
What about people like Sakonige who are watching the events unfold over there with baited breath hoping that all Jews are killed?
Not the same thing at all!
8716. wonkers2 - 4/19/2002 11:06:27 AM
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the settlers keep building at Beit El overlooking Ramallah
8717. wonkers2 - 4/19/2002 11:07:10 AM
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the settlers keep building at Beit El overlooking Ramallah
8718. sakonige - 4/19/2002 11:20:26 AM
Message # 8715
I thought you said you believe in capital punishment. So do I.
8719. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 11:20:49 AM
jen:
Isn't Oslo sort of like a seven year peace?
8720. Jenerator - 4/19/2002 11:24:14 AM
Sakonige,
I don't want people executed because of their ethnicity. Are you really that racist??
Rustler,
That's a good question.
Do you think that the Arabs will be attacking Israel soon?
8721. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 11:24:32 AM
Jen,
I'm posting this just so you know I'm not angry or upset and don't consider you to be bloodthirsty.
I oppose the tendency of any religious faction to see specific world events as fulfillment of prophesy, especially if I get the sense it biases them in viewing the given situation and its participants For instance, the suggestion that it's either/or--you think everything Sharon and Israel are doing is within their rights or you condone suicide bombings. Many people believe Sharon has acted wrongly, even as they oppose Arafat. No one outside radical groups has condoned suicide bombings. I believe that it's important to view world events as objectively as possible rather than through the distorted glasses of a personal and, in my opinion, inadequate interpretation of obscure prophesy.
8722. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 11:26:07 AM
Wom:
How does this
Your short-term reduction of the chances of your child getting blown up will ultimately end up with Israel in a permanent state of mobilization, with all the social and economic dislocation that will accompany it, Israeli agricultural produce being embargoed by the European Union (your largest customer), and the distinct possiblity of escalation beyond that, in which Israel will become embroiled in a regional conflict that it will not be able to sustain.
... lead up to this
This will strip away whatever shreds of moral justification for Israel's existence remain
...?
8723. sakonige - 4/19/2002 11:26:38 AM
Jenerator,
Ethnicity isn't the issue. Some criminals are so remoseless and so dangerous they should be put down.
8724. sakonige - 4/19/2002 11:28:54 AM
remorseless
a nation of remorseless criminals
8725. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 11:30:51 AM
Jen:
Do you think that the Arabs will be attacking Israel soon?
What do you call killing and maiming a hundred people a day, week after week, in a country with a population of 5-6 million? This is a terror war, launched by Arafat and his million martyrs, which is being planned and coordinated with Saddam Hussein. Saddam is calling the shots here, Arafat is his deputy. And it's been so for at least a decade.
8726. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 11:31:56 AM
Sakko:
Some criminals are so remoseless and so dangerous they should be put down.
Even if it means bulldozing their houses on them?
8727. Property of Jesus - 4/19/2002 11:37:09 AM
Israel Acts--And the Media Howl
8728. sakonige - 4/19/2002 11:42:16 AM
Rustler,
Do you ever get the feeling that the whole world hates you?
8729. robertjayb - 4/19/2002 11:43:04 AM
Boom Again!
G A Z A C I T Y, Gaza Strip, April 19 —
A Palestinian blew himself up in a car at a checkpoint Friday, lightly injuring two Israeli soldiers, and Israeli forces killed five Palestinians in exchanges of fire in an abrupt escalation of conflict in the Gaza Strip.
Islamic militants threatened to carry out more attacks in Israel.
8730. wonkers2 - 4/19/2002 12:12:41 PM
That goes a bit beyond an eye for an eye.
Don't worry, Sharon will stop the the attacks.
8731. robertjayb - 4/19/2002 12:24:09 PM
Andonly,
Thanks for the excellent review of the Charlie Rose/Bernard Lewis program.
8732. mgleason - 4/19/2002 12:41:41 PM
I second the thanks to Andonly.
I must say that I agree with Lewis and RP about 'Fat. He's an old spider with a leg in every pie, and all roads lead to him. Think of all the various groups competing for funds and influence, each suspicious of the next, but all tied to 'Fat. He doesn't want peace; he never has, and now it doesn't much matter because the infrastructure he's built has its own momentum and inevitability. That's what Andonly's been saying, and I believe it to be true, though I also believe that 'Fat knows exactly what's going on even as he lacks both the will and the power to stop it.
8733. Property of Jesus - 4/19/2002 12:58:15 PM
Let's hope Arafat doesn't have air conditioning in his flat.
What's the name of that Smashing Pumpkins song about the rage of being caught in a cage like a rat?
8734. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2002 1:02:17 PM
Andonly
<8>About Arafat, he says huge numbers of documents found by the IDF detailing the Chairman's planning and willing acquiescence to every aspect of the intifada and suicide bombings provide incontrovertible evidence of Arafat being the promoter of the current conflict, over which he has been in complete control all along.
If that is so one would assume that the IDF has published the documents, at least a selection, to prove its case. Please provide a link.
8735. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2002 1:03:51 PM
Sorry, the first para should have been in italics.
8736. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 1:05:50 PM
Sakko:
Do you ever get the feeling that the whole world hates you?
No sakko, and if you do you should take care of yourself. Have you tried Prozac?
8737. Andonly - 4/19/2002 1:08:01 PM
(Happy to be of service.)
Does anyone know where I can fine online transcripts of Rose interviews? There's one with Henry Kissinger from maybe a year ago that I'd love to dig up, in which (I'm almost positive) the master of the gravel-laced baritone delivery insists Israel could never say no to a direct order from the United States, leader of the free world, lone remaining superpower, patron of Israeli existence.
8738. mgleason - 4/19/2002 1:15:37 PM
Here's the Charlie Rose site, but the transcripts aren't free. There's an audio archive, however, which may have the Kissinger interview.
8739. Wombat - 4/19/2002 1:18:55 PM
Would the Israelis release any PA documents that contraindicated their stated belief that Arafat is the sun around which all terrorism must orbit?
8740. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2002 1:19:14 PM
Maria!
Glad to see you around again.
8741. Andonly - 4/19/2002 1:23:00 PM
"If that is so one would assume that the IDF has published the documents, at least a selection, to prove its case. Please provide a link."
No, Pelle, if that is so one would assume Israeli officials had shared the documents with eminently well-connected Professor Lewis, various heads of state, and other notables. (The US administration is apparently convinced, without any reservation, that Arafat was thoroughl engaged with the Karine A arms shipment, for instance. That is why Bush has taken a hard line with Arafat, who enraged the admin when he attempted to lie about his involvement.)
Lewis apparently was in the region recently, but I didn't catch the first ten minutes of the hour-long interview, so didn't hear the details.
Naturally, Bernard Lewis could be wrong, but I would think his knowledge of the people and history of the region and his access to their languages suggests he's less likely to be wrong than you or I.
8742. mgleason - 4/19/2002 1:31:51 PM
Thanks, Pelle!
8743. CalGal - 4/19/2002 1:38:10 PM
Hey, Maria!
I caught that interview last night; it was fantastic.
8744. Andonly - 4/19/2002 1:42:08 PM
"Would the Israelis release any PA documents that contraindicated their stated belief that Arafat is the sun around which all terrorism must orbit?"
Wombat seems to be under the impression that Israel would get a fair hearing in the world press's court if only it provided some evidence. Well, when Arafat's complicity in the Karine A shipment was revealed, the world yawned and said, "So? Why shouldn't the Palestinians break the laws they signed onto at Oslo? After all, they're occupied by an illegal foreign imperialist Brutalizer, who..."
No one cares what Israel proves. It's all a fiendishly clever Mossad manipulation, you know. Any time Israel uncovers bad faith on the Pals' part, the gabblers will all aver that Israel's bad faith is worse, much worse, really just like Naziism, concentration camps, the Warsaw Ghetto, ethnic cleansing, on and on. The UN idiot Terje Larssen just got done intoning that "nothing justifies" the eathquake-like destruction of Jenin.
I beg to differ. But it's no use explaining, and Israelis know full well they've already been convicted and sentenced to national dissolution. Any wonder why they've responded with a resounding Fuck you?
Y'all should think about that. Will it really profit the cause of Palestinian statehood or peace in the mideast for Israel to get backed into a corner by world opinion? If you think so--if you think Israelis are equivalent to Serbs or South Africans--then you don't understand where Jews are psychologically at this point in history.
8745. Andonly - 4/19/2002 1:52:17 PM
"I caught that interview last night; it was fantastic."
It was fantastic. One got the impression one was hearing from someone taking the long view for a change.
Oh yes, another thing he said was that the Israelis' hasty departure from Lebanon convinced Arab and Muslim radicals that Israel, like the US, was soft and couldn't handle casualties in war. Lewis made a very clear connection between al Qaeda, the PLO, and Hizbullah: all one strategic philosophy. Israel was right to hit Lebanon hard in the 80's, he said, but should have left soon afterward and shouldn't have abandoned its allies the way it did.
Which has always been my view, btw, though I don't think it's an unsual one.
8746. Andonly - 4/19/2002 1:56:36 PM
Maria, thanks. Charlie Rose doesn't have a link at PBS, if you can believe it.
Transcripts of his interviews are steep. $35!
8747. Wombat - 4/19/2002 1:57:29 PM
Andonly:
Rather than taking up the self-serving Israeli plaint about how everyone hates them, you would do well to apply your obvious critical thinking skills to dissecting Israeli statements with the same relish that you do with others, particularly in regard to Israeli actions that are defiantly at variance with stated US policy and desires for the region.
Sharon has sold the US the same bill of goods in the West Bank that he sold the US--and his own government--in Lebanon over 20 years ago. He has no exit strategy that is remotely palatable to any but his most extreme followers, and I would hazard a guess that most Israelis who support him now out of anger and despair will eventually see through this, as they did before. He can no more stamp out Palestinian terrorism--and the mind set that sparks it--than he can reverse the sun (no Joshua, he). When IDF operations in the West Bank are complete, the situation will be essentially unchanged, except for increased volatility.
8748. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2002 2:06:33 PM
Andonly
No one cares what Israel proves. It's all a fiendishly clever Mossad manipulation, you know. Any time Israel uncovers bad faith on the Pals' part, the gabblers will all aver that Israel's bad faith is worse, much worse, really just like Naziism, concentration camps, the Warsaw Ghetto, ethnic cleansing, on and on.
You are deteriorating. If the IDF has the documents Lewis claims it has, it would certainly have published them for home consumtion even if "No one cares what Israel proves".
8749. wonkers2 - 4/19/2002 2:33:26 PM
I guess I'm stupid. But would somebody please explain why it's okay for Israel to be armed to the teeth with everthing including nuclear weapons, but it's not okay for the Palestinians or Iraq, for that matter, to arm themselves? Realpolitik? Might is right?
8750. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 2:53:21 PM
Wonkers:
You're lucky we don't move posts to the Inferno for sheer stupidity. What's wrong with Saddam having nukes? Why - nothing, nothing at all.
They were interviewing some soldiers from the battalion that lost 13 men in Jenin on Israeli Channel 2. They were of the opinion that trying to save on Pal civilian casualties did not justify their losing 13 of their friends. They're right, I think.
8751. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 2:56:21 PM
Israeli Channel 1 reports that of Israel's list of wanted terrorists - the ones Arafat was supposed to fork over - only 10% were killed or captured in 'Defensive Shield'. The rest escaped to the villages and are now returning and regrouping.
8752. wonkers2 - 4/19/2002 2:58:32 PM
Well, I didn't say I approved of Saadam's nukes. But I've asked the question before and nobody has answered. And neither did you. Why don't you forget about Iraq and explain why the Palestinians aren't allowed to arm themselves while Israel apparently no arms restrictions. [I'm not a student of Israel-Palestine relations and so far as I know there may be a perfectly good reason. I would just like to know what it is.]
8753. Wombat - 4/19/2002 3:06:42 PM
Wonkers:
Since the Israeli constitution does not call for the destruction of Palestinians, and it is not clear that Palestinian national charter has eliminated its references to destroying Israel, Israel has insisted, I think correctly, that any Palestinian "entity" be demilitarized, with police forces limited to carrying side arms.
8754. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 3:08:08 PM
Wonk:
OK, and I'm sorry about the 'stupid' remark, reading back I see that you didn't mention nukes wrt Saddam (he doesn't have them, to the best of everyone's knowledge).
What's wrong with the Pals arming themselves is they were given their autonomy and pre-statehood on the condition that they behave themselves. Arafat got the right to enter the Territories after decades in exile, and become 'President', on the assumption that this whole process was leading to peace, not war.
Arafat established the Fatah in 1964 and carried out the first attack on Israeli civilians in 1965. This was before we even captured the Territories! When Jordan and Egypt held the West Bank and Gaza, nobody even thought of giving the Pal Arabs in these territories an independent state. Israel was the first to agree to give them this right, but the condition was - no heavy weaponry, and peace. So when we discover this was all a ruse - we get upset.
Make sense?
8755. Wombat - 4/19/2002 3:09:01 PM
It is also clear that the Palestinians violated this part of the Oslo Accords from the beginning, just as it was clear that the Israeli government either lacked the political strength (Labor) or the desire (Likud) to halt settlement construction.
8756. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 3:10:39 PM
Wasn't Charlie Rose a baseball hall of famer who got into trouble?
Oh wait, that was Pete, wasn't it.
8757. Andonly - 4/19/2002 4:11:26 PM
"Rather than taking up the self-serving Israeli plaint about how everyone hates them, you would do well to apply your obvious critical thinking skills to dissecting Israeli statements with the same relish that you do with others, particularly in regard to Israeli actions that are defiantly at variance with stated US policy and desires for the region."
Wonkers, Israel does what it does for two reasons: 1) It must, for the sake of its survival; 2) the far right wants to own all of Palestine.
Because of its coalition government Israel must appease this increasingly powerful minority, whose strength is owed precisely to Arabs' historical and present rejection of Israel's existence. The fact that Sharon is even in office is due ENTIRELY to Palestinian "resistance".
8758. Andonly - 4/19/2002 4:11:44 PM
The whole world is focussed, laser-like, on reason number two. Most Jews, however, don't want to own all of Palestine, and therefore would not support continuing occupation (what the fuck do you think Oslo was about?) were they not justifiably convinced that issue number one must be dealt with. As long as revanchists predominate among Arabs, as long as a Pal state is likely to be used as a launch pad for Arab dreams of eradicating Israel, financed by Iran, Iraq, & Saudi Arabia, and facilitated by Syria and Lebanon, the Israeli right will get pretty much what it wants by default (excepting the mass departure of Pals that Pike envisions). And the vast majority of Jews everywhere will set aside their sense that it is wrong to occupy another people, for the fact is that this people and/or its leadership wants Israel dead or permanently disabled, and has not yet stopped trying to attain that goal.
The sooner that goal is made unobtainable at any bearable price, the sooner Pals can get down to negotiating a permanent settlement, as opposed to an interim pretense designed to be used as a wedge. Only arabs have the power to disarm--or empower--the Israeli right. But if the Arabs don't hurry and change course, and perhaps if the US doesn't force them to (I'm undecided on this) the Israeli right will gain so much power and so much support that it will be nearly impossible to negotiate anything the Palestinians could possibly live with. And Israel will wind up severly damaged--from within, as religion tightens its grip on liberal society, and from without, as liberal Jews abroad recoil.
On top of that, the Pals will still be occupied.
8759. Andonly - 4/19/2002 4:28:42 PM
"You are deteriorating."
Good, well by the time I've reached your stage of advanced decomposition we should be able to have a converstion on your level.
"If the IDF has the documents Lewis claims it has, it would certainly have published them for home consumtion even if "No one cares what Israel proves"."
I doubt this.
Israel is very bad at generating its own useful PR. (Netanyahu, despite being a firey orator in English, is no Abba Eban.) Sharon comes across poorly on the air. And the last time they tried to publicize this stuff (the Karine A), the press simply rebuffed them.
But who knows, perhaps we'll be seeing this material in time. It took a while for the US to make its evidence against ObL public, too, and not all of it was ever disclosed.
One more thing: If a western language daily were simply to publish photocopies of Arafat's weapons orders and signed payments to terrorist cells, who would be able to read them? Bernard Lewis, I'm sure, but what about Wonkers? And when Arabic speakers stepped up to interpret for the rest of us what the documents contained, and some said they implicated Arafat, but his apologists and syncophants claimed they didn't, or that the data was uncertain...whom would Wonkers, and the people who damn Israel each day with their headlines, believe?
Frankly, I trust Bernard Lewis's readings over the Likud's, over the US administration's, and over the leftist Euros' who frankly despise Israel. That is why I found his remarks so compelling; his generally equivocal stance in matters concerning the mideast made them surprising as well.
8760. Wombat - 4/19/2002 4:34:04 PM
The problem that you omit is that the Israeli right equates your number 2 with your number 1, and thus can and have sabotaged every agreement made, every bit as much as the Palestinians have.
8761. Andonly - 4/19/2002 4:38:51 PM
"He can no more stamp out Palestinian terrorism--and the mind set that sparks it--than he can reverse the sun (no Joshua, he). When IDF operations in the West Bank are complete, the situation will be essentially unchanged, except for increased volatility."
More suicide bombings will lead to more Israeli incursions into WB towns, more destruction and horror. Your scenario depends on the US reining Israel in but allowing the Pals to manoever unchecked. Meanwhile, people are now speaking seriously about a NATO force under US command. Bush doesn't seem to want that, so I doubt it will happen any time soon.
If the Pals are smart, they'll keep their attacks limited to military targets now.
8762. Andonly - 4/19/2002 4:45:36 PM
"Israeli Channel 1 reports that of Israel's list of wanted terrorists - the ones Arafat was supposed to fork over - only 10% were killed or captured in 'Defensive Shield'. The rest escaped to the villages and are now returning and regrouping."
Do you remember just after 9-11, when certain people insisted in the Mote that there was no sense in te US attacking Afghanistan because that would just fan the flames of hatred and really we could accomplish an increase in domestic security through better surveillance and cooperation with allies, etc., and anyway, the terrorists couldn't all be gotten and the majority would simply regroup and attack us again later?
Well, the Taliban and al Qaeda's fighters are still out there, so that could still happen. But we've had no successful attacks on civilians in the US in six months, either.
8763. Andonly - 4/19/2002 4:57:10 PM
"The problem that you omit is that the Israeli right equates your number 2 with your number 1, and thus can and have sabotaged every agreement made, every bit as much as the Palestinians have."
Yeah, if you think it's possible to sabotage an agreement the the other side never really agreed to, or you think building settlements is as irrevocable an act as bombing school children.
The fact is, the moderate and liberal factions in Israel were driving the peace process. The moderates in Palestine have largely been radicals in disguise. It is ridiculous to claim that the Ireaeli right "sabotaged" a peace process that never really existed in the first place.
Besides, Arafat never gave the Israeli right the opportunity to sabotage the Camp David possibility. He just went ahead and did it himself. The "intifada istiklal" had nothing whatever to do with Palestinian "desperation" over occupation.
8764. joezan - 4/19/2002 11:59:18 PM
Arky - Message # 8703:
If I show a WASP KKK whose child is dressed in a white robe and sporting a swastiga up next to an Afghan Muslim flying a kite with his child, what do you think I've proven?
Man - talk about mixing your metaphors!
Listen - all I was doing with those two photos was juxtaposing two mentalities.
There we see a Jew, in a land under attack by maniacal neanderthals who don't give a shit about who they blow up along with their worthless selves.
But he protects his child from that reality - he laughs as he hoists his child up on his shoulders to see the world from his level. And somehow, I have the impression he's NOT telling the child: Here is our land - you must kill the Arabs in order to keep it.
Then, we have the photo of the Arab, hoisting his child up on his shoulders, in order for her to see the world from his level. And, I mean...here's this piece of shit not only telling his kid to kill the Jews, but encouraging her to blow herself up in the process.
Now, I realize where your sympathy for these people comes from - I really do. But have you ever taken the time to check out some of the links to the right here? Are you aware that Pal children are taught in their public schools to hate Israelis - that Allah commands them to drive them out? Or that Israel does not exist on any map they are taught from?
This is not "anger born of frustration and occupation", Arky - this is a carefully cultivated cult of death and hate, whipped to a fine froth. These are some of the sickest images to come down the pike in over half a century.
8765. RustlerPike - 4/20/2002 12:29:10 AM
These are some of the sickest images to come down the pike in over half a century.
You want to see sick things coming down the pike, send me one of those toilet cams.
(Sorry about that).
Ando:
Do you remember just after 9-11, when certain people insisted in the Mote that there was no sense in te US attacking Afghanistan because (...) the terrorists couldn't all be gotten and the majority would simply regroup and attack us again later?
Well, the Taliban and al Qaeda's fighters are still out there, so that could still happen. But we've had no successful attacks on civilians in the US in six months, either.
Well, yes, I guess that was supposed to make me feel better. The thing is, the Pal terror machine isn't still 'out there'. It's still 'in here'. There is very little 'out' in this Holy Land. Either they're inside our kischkes, or we're inside theirs. Or both.
From what I understand, things are not going back to the way they were in any case: the 20,000 miluimniks who were called up are being sent home, but they will be replaced by 5,000 others, who are supposed to help the IDF maintain an extra tight grip on the Pal terror towns, and along the Green Line. (Who knows, yours truly may get to be one of those - I've certainly been asking my commanders to do that for me, and they are trying.) There will be the occasional incursion into this town or that village, as intelligence info dictates. Still, I think the other side will also ratchet up its operations to an even more dangerous level, pooling the combined resources of the Hamas, Force 17, Tanzim and all of the other Pal armies into one truly horrific terror army. We have yet to see hospitals or schools being attacked effectively. I think we may see that happen before this is over.
>>>
8766. RustlerPike - 4/20/2002 12:41:49 AM
>>>
I'm still worried about Jenin though. If I were in charge of PR I think I would have said - let the journalists in, let them film the bodies, let the Pals stage a mass burial, let a journalist get maimed from an exploding booby-trapped corpse (talk about sick!), let them say what they will. At that time the reason for our action was still fresh in the world's memory.
But someone in the IDF seems to have been thinking that Israel could prevent the Pals from uncovering the buried corpses, and I think that person was wrong. I think Christiane Amanpour and Kofi Anan will make sure bulldozers are sent in there, and we'll look like the dumb fucks we are in the end. The only 'card' Israeli PR seems to have is that we lost 23 soldiers too, but that 'card' (how awful - to be killed in action in order to become a PR card!) won't last forever, and the Pal bodies will come out eventually, and the screaming mothers and children will be there live on world TV.
What do you guys think? Ando, Wombat? Am I exaggerating the degree to which Jenin could turn into an image disaster for Israel?
I think if I'm right, 'Defensive Shield' will not be succeeded by 'Defensive Shield II' three or four months down the line, like we're all hoping here in Israel. Yasir will be smiling again, I tell you.
An aside: JC, you seem to have been right. This thread is a lot better without Jexster's terror spam. Are you still interested in the position of axeman?
8767. MrSocko - 4/20/2002 3:50:20 AM
Hey RP, Good to see your hefty work here in this thread. Although I really don't have much time these days to participate in Mote discussions, I do make a point of checking in here to see your thoughts about the current crisis.
Now I have a question. I have here in front of me a map showing Israel and PA-land circa 2000, and it has what purports to be the contours of a "security zone" -- in Jordan! Do you know anything about this? I knew that the Israelis leased some land from Jordan but had never heard of a security zone a la Southern Lebanon.
8768. RustlerPike - 4/20/2002 4:41:22 AM
MrSocko:
HELLO!!!
(Note to 'the generation which did not know Joseph': Socko, an NZ based journalist, was one of this forum's founding fathers, best remembered for a tough-pose portrait hailed by the forum's womenfolk as 'Stockholm syndrome inducing')
Never heard of the security zone in Jordan. Could it be part of the Jordan-Israel peace accord? How wide is this zone? Maybe it is that leased land you were talking about.
8769. wonkers2 - 4/20/2002 6:47:35 AM
Joezan "maniacal neanderthals"
I'm tempted to say as we used to as kids "Takes one to know one." But I want to keep the discussion on a rational, friendly. level. So, instead I'll say "You're full of shit as usual!"
8770. Property of Jesus - 4/20/2002 7:43:47 AM
PAGE SIX: CNN star called Israel-basher
8771. joezan - 4/20/2002 8:10:23 AM
Oh - ok, wonk. Then how's this:
Maniacal cro-magnon freedom fighters.
Better?
8772. arkymalarky - 4/20/2002 9:36:55 AM
Joe,
Exactly. You take two people representing two ethnic groups with one picture of each and draw such general conclusions. It's meaningless.
I'm certainly glad you were never an Arab recruited by AlQaeda. One of binLaden's most common tactics in recruiting mindless and angry young Muslims was showing pictures and films designed to infuriate them at the Israelis and US.
I really didn't think you were that easy to persuade of the rightness of ONE side.
And no, you really don't see where my sympathy for "these people" comes from, because you have such blinders on you can't tell that I am working to understand both sides and I have heard from direct players on both sides who are (generally) reasonable and informed in their assessments.
Why don't you get out of the Enquirer mode and actually look at the situation instead of letting your pretty head be turned by emotional pictures? Otherwise, when the Pals and AI begin showing heartrending pictures out of Jenin you might find yourself switching causes.
8773. arkymalarky - 4/20/2002 9:37:53 AM
Socko it is wonderful to see you here!
8774. Andonly - 4/20/2002 11:40:12 AM
"Am I exaggerating the degree to which Jenin could turn into an image disaster for Israel?"
No.
But, assuming there's a masacre, if Israel tries and convicts any offenders the High Court or the UN identifies within the IDF, it will have done what any true democracy does under the circumstances.
I saw mention of a Haaretz article somewhere in which Amira Hass herself, having now toured Jenin with other journalists, says there's no evidence of a massacre. (I haven't read this article, though. Will see if I can find it.)
Also, Peres has told the UN to come in and investigate, that Israel has nothing to hide.
8775. Andonly - 4/20/2002 11:40:33 AM
Hi Socks.
8776. Andonly - 4/20/2002 11:48:16 AM
Haaretz: "There was no massacre in Jenin"
The claim that there was a "massacre" in the Jenin refugee camp has been taken up by many news media around the world, human rights groups and even among many governments. This claim, originally made during the height of the fighting in the refugee camp, reverberates with gravity, seriously damaging Israel's political campaign to justify its self defense against terror and the legitimacy of the means it is using in that campaign.
In Israel, too, suspicions were raised that there was truth to the Palestinian claims. Many feared that Jenin would be added to the black list of massacres that have shocked the world. The IDF contributed to those fears when it issued a preliminary estimate of hundreds of dead in the camp (it turned out that several score were killed, with the exact number still unknown) and by blocking journalists from entering the camp to report what was happening inside. That was an invitation to another charge, also widely reported, of an alleged cover-up.
In recent days, journalists - including Ha'aretz reporters - have visited the camp, gathering their own first-hand impressions and eyewitness testimony about the IDF's operations. Ha'aretz reporter Amira Hass spent several days in the camp, and her report appears in today's pages. There is evidence of intense combat, but, with appropriate caution, it can already be said what did not happen in the Jenin refugee camp. There was no massacre. No order from above was given, nor was a local initiative executed, to deliberately and systematically kill unarmed people.
8777. RustlerPike - 4/20/2002 12:21:11 PM
Pelle,
The IDF's revamped website has what you were looking for before: the captured documents, in Arabic and English. The gif that says 'secret documents' doesn't look like it leads anywhere, but it does.
8778. RustlerPike - 4/20/2002 12:44:10 PM
Well, if Hass says no massacre, then no massacre.
I don't think there was a massacre - even if the number of dead does turn out to be higher than 100, and include many civilians. But like I said, I think there may have been a panicked attempt at a coverup, which will automatically be interpreted as a confession of guilt. And now you will have these hysterical and heartwrenching scenes played out every single evening for weeks to come, as another mangled corpse is pulled out, and another. Very bad. The worst part will be when they pull ten bodies from a hole they were dumped into. Or when a little girl's body is pulled out... the media will make a humungous circus of this - already is. Already, there has been a noticeable shift in the way CNN is covering us.
What a PR nightmare. Jexster must be creaming himself with delight.
8779. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2002 3:29:43 PM
Rustler
Thanks for locating the documents. They show that Arafat is the paymaster, but not that he is the mastermind. I still think he's drifting with the current.
By the way, the transformation of Arafat from a bumbling half-with who doesn't understand his own good into a subtle, devious master planner who has had The Plan up his sleeve since before -67 is one the few amusing things about this whole affair.
I prefer not to believe that Jenin was a massacre in the sense that civilian bystanders were deliberately targeted. I know something about the lay-out of the refugee camps, the narrow alleys and the incredible population density. Once the IDF took the decision to enter (which I don't support) it must have been very, very difficult to avoid civilian casualties.
8780. wonkers2 - 4/20/2002 5:57:17 PM
Just for sake of narrowing the discussion, Kuligan, are you saying that being gay is sinful or only that homosexual acts are sinful? What about gay oriented but celibate priests of which apparently there are many, including a number of saints?
8781. wonkers2 - 4/20/2002 5:58:48 PM
Sorry, wrong thread. Change it to gay oriented IDF soldiers!
8782. sakonige - 4/20/2002 7:18:54 PM
Tell you what, Rustler Pike. Israeli remorselessness is the real public relations disaster. It makes plain the difference between a crime committed in the heat of passion, and cold-blooded murder.
If you are concerned about appearances, you need to do something to conceal that reptilian heartlessness.
8783. mrsOckO - 4/20/2002 8:43:02 PM
Thanks for the reply, RP. And salutations to those others who greeted me. I'm not sure I remember Andonly. Did we meet under other monikers?
RP, how is the current crisis affecting Israeli universities? As you know, I have a considerable interest in this area to begin with, but I'm also interested as an Israeli-watcher as well.
8784. concerned - 4/21/2002 1:20:38 AM
Re. Jenin:
Brutal, yes. Massacre, no.
Key excerpt:
For even as the hunt for the bodies goes on, it is increasingly clear from evidence collected by this paper and other journalists, that the majority of those so far recovered have been Palestinian fighters from Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the al-Aqsa Brigades.
Certainly, civilians died. But so far they are in the minority of those who perished.
Musli are well known for using civilians from their own or other civilian populations for what amount to in effect, human shields or hostages, in the hope that doing so will dissuade their enemies or inflame popular opinion.
8785. concerned - 4/21/2002 1:28:24 AM
Although the sample size is inadequate (notice the qualifier which you probably wouldn't bother to add in any similar statement, Lefties?), it's interesting that virtually all the anti-Israel sentiment in the Mote has been from the political Left. Tends to put the lie to the hoary canard about anti-Semites automatically being RW'ers, doesn't it?
8786. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 2:07:53 AM
Sako:
If you are concerned about appearances, you need to do something to conceal that reptilian heartlessness.
I'm proud to be a reptile.
I am the lizard king. I can do anything.
8787. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 2:09:58 AM
RP, how is the current crisis affecting Israeli universities?
I donno, the occasional provocation by Arab students protesting against Israel, and a lot of people doing reserve duty, I imagine. This semester must be shot, with so many guys doing miluim.
8788. concerned - 4/21/2002 2:25:28 AM
RP -
What effect do you see Israel's demographic shifts having on its viability as a nation state, say a couple generations down the road?
8789. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 2:36:06 AM
What effect do you see Israel's demographic shifts having on its viability as a nation state, say a couple generations down the road?
Be more specific. But you know I don't think most of the Pals currently living in the WB&G will still be there a couple of years from now.
I think we can live with an Israeli Arab minority of 20%.
8790. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 2:47:30 AM
Very encouraging news from Haaretz and from what I'm reading in the NYT and the Observer article linked above. Seems much of my panic over the possible burial of hundreds of corpses may have been the result of IDF spokesman Ron Kitrey's stupidity, nothing else.
When you read the account of the way the battle went, I don't think anyone can say anything to the IDF except 'chapeau'. Putting our own men at risk like that, separating the men from the women and not even searching the women, warning people over and over again to leave... no other army would have done that. I'm proud of our soldiers. And if it's true our casualties were almost half of the Pals' - well, that says a lot.
Also, Haaretz has a much more optimistic assessment of the efficacy of 'Defensive Shield' than Ynet did yesterday. They say the Hamas has been dealt a massive blow, the north Shomron Islamic Jihad has been virtually wiped out, and overall terror capacity (including top commanders arrested or killed, bomb factories dismantled, weapons seized etc.) in Jenin has been reduced by 90%, in Nablus by 80%, and in Tulkarm and Kalkilya by 60%. They say the arrests are leading to more arrests, and we are now quite free to enter the towns and make those arrests.
Also, Sharon is apparently planning to burst into the Mukata'a and arrest and exile Yasir. This should be cool.
8791. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 2:50:11 AM
Add Ramallah to Nablus in the 80% category.
8792. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 3:08:37 AM
Still, if there weren't that many bodies, I don't understand why the IDF was so concerned about the Pals burying the dead in a mass grave.
Oh well. What next? Anyone? I confess I haven't a clue. If this has really been as effective as it seems, then we are probably in for a few weeks/months of regrouping, then Pal activity becoming much more of an underground thing, a lot more use of women and children as weapons smugglers, a lot more use of Israeli Arabs, and Yasir turning to the Messiah of Baghdad to save him, to finally make his move.
Perhaps the Iraqis and Pals will opt for a combined surprise attack of sorts this time. Who knows. I don't.
8793. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 3:10:48 AM
Let's see what Saddam says and does in the next few weeks. That should be interesting.
8794. Property of Jesus - 4/21/2002 7:35:05 AM
The headquarters of anti-Semitic Europe today, just as during the Third Republic, is Paris.
8795. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 8:36:41 AM
One thing that seems likely is that the IDF's soldiers in the WB&G will be taking the brunt of the Pal attacks from now on. More so than before. There are now more of them there, for one thing.
8796. joezan - 4/21/2002 8:48:58 AM
Just a thought:
This whole Jenin massacre thing has a very familiar smell.
I'm thinking Kuwait City...torture...rape... executions...etc.
...wonder how much of the old Arab pr team from '91 are still around?
8797. RickNelson - 4/21/2002 9:25:16 AM
Rustler,
I read your post including PAL casualties above. First, I agree that the soldiers seem to have achieved as professional a result as could be expected in a horrible situation. My personal views had hoped that they wouldn't bulldoze homes with people in them, but I understand the situation. They did an admirable job of warnings, but a house to house was required to achieve ultimate security for the innocent. That would be a huge undertaking.
However, in retrospect the act of house to house would have achieved an immence approval vote from the world outside of Arabia etal. Sitting in my little house across the world doesn't qualify me for any sort of judemental attitude, therefore this post has nothing to do with that!
My local news rags have given accounts where the PALs are getting into frenzied hate about the buried and other innocent killed. Well DUH! What the hell, no ones gonna be pissed?! Sheesh, the PAL selfrightousness makes me wanna puke!! Any selfrightousness from the settlers makes me seethe with projectile vomit, so don't think I'm not sensitive to some of the PAL issues. But, when the breast beating clears its the aggressions of suicide attacks which is the ultimate cause of this current conflict.
As I said before, and it was probably overlooked, I think the Isrealis are doing the right thing. But, I also think it's to little to late. The fight should have been brought to the PALs before now (two yrs?). I also think those bastards in the Hamas need a severe and utterly ruthless pounding into the depths of smashed dust and blood.
Rip 'em a new one.
8798. betty - 4/21/2002 9:48:00 AM
it's interesting that virtually all the anti-Israel sentiment in the Mote has been from the political Left. Tends to put the lie to the hoary canard about anti-Semites automatically being RW'ers, doesn't it?
You didn't mean to imply that those who might object to the brutality of the Israeli state are anti-Semitic, did you? Well really, i should know better, of course you meant to. that's silly and I'm sure you know that such a position is silly. there are plenty of Israelis and plenty of American Jews objecting to recent events, and even if there weren't, criticism of a country's actions does not make one a hater of the people of that country.
Surely, concerned, you are capable of understanding this and you were just trying to bait, eh?
8799. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 12:02:28 PM
Rick:
Thanks for the input. It's my understanding that the soldiers did do a house-to-house at first, but when it all got too hairy they started demolishing, and when more soldiers got killed they started demolishing without warning.
8800. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 12:03:35 PM
Betty:
Knock knock.
8801. betty - 4/21/2002 12:05:31 PM
who's there?
8802. betty - 4/21/2002 12:07:38 PM
(let's see if i get this right)
RP: anti-semite.
betty: anti-semite who?
RP: you!
(am I close?)
8803. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 12:10:01 PM
betty:
You're close.
I was going to say 'auntie'.
8804. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 12:12:18 PM
Well, at long last, they have put a biography up for Fat Arik at the PMO site. Click the link up at the top right if you're interested.
God, the IDF site could use my translation and Flash skills.
8805. mgleason - 4/21/2002 12:13:12 PM
Joe,
Who needs Arab PR when fellow travelers are glad to oblige?
Today Israel, Tomorrow Us?
Arafat is not recruiting the terrorists. Israeli tanks and armor rampaging through the cities and refugee camps of the West Bank are doing the recruiting.
8806. betty - 4/21/2002 12:17:54 PM
RP,
Occasionally I can understand why Jex has adopted his "sure, I hate Jews, you've figured it out, I'm an anti-semite" act around here.
8807. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 12:30:47 PM
Betty:
With Jexs, I don't think it's an act. Though I'm not sure he understands what it is he's posting.
Does anyone know what the second rank under Superintendent is in the police? And how is it abbreviated? This would be something like a Lt. Supt. - is there such a thing?
8808. mgleason - 4/21/2002 12:36:25 PM
Here's the structure of the Metropolitan Police in London (It's the only one with which I'm really familiar due to my addiction to British police procedurals):
Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Commander
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Chief Inspector
Inspector
Sergeant
Constable
8809. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 1:55:35 PM
Well in that case, my dictionaries are wrong. Asst. Commissioner is what I'm after.
While I'm consulting: in Hebrew, we say modelim arkhitektonim. But in English, it would be 'architectural models' rather than 'architectonic models', right?
If Pe were around he could probably explain why, too.
8810. Julius Caesar - 4/21/2002 2:47:00 PM
Rustler
The thread is improved because it is not plagued by a farting, belching infant whose own egoism requires that he be on at all times, "in your face", telling it like it is, 20 posts running.
As always, I am at your service.
8811. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 3:01:35 PM
JC:
I'm just thinking, what if we found a way to torture jexster more creatively than simple deletion? For instance, what if we inserted a picture of George W. Bush into every other post by him, and one of Paula Jones into all the other ones?
8812. Julius Caesar - 4/21/2002 3:07:14 PM
Rustler
As they say, then the terrorists will have won.
Ruthlessly extirpate the infidel without comment (i.e., explanation after every confrontation) or mercy (nothing moved, all offending matters deleted) or pause (soon, the infidel will lace his mad scribblings with potentially meaningful text, in an effort to make you hesitate and to curry favor with the lazy, leftish lonesomes, who will crow about the great injustice of it all -- remember, you are not a social worker; kill it all, apologize to no one). He will either heel or be destroyed.
Rustler, you're a good man, but (and let me be candid), like many who would populate these threads, you are soft.
Give me the gun. Give me the mandate.
8813. RustlerPike - 4/21/2002 3:45:32 PM
OK JC. I will. The thread is definitely better in its de-jexsterized state. slawyer@hotmail.com, was it?
8814. betty - 4/21/2002 3:50:13 PM
this thread is something like lukewarm bathwater these days, I wouldn't call it better.
8815. arkymalarky - 4/21/2002 4:55:02 PM
I agree with Betty. Jex may have been excessive, but RP should be able to handle what he thought was too much instead of handing things over to the Sl(awyer)asher.
8816. wonkers2 - 4/21/2002 5:05:54 PM
"Today Israel, Tomorrow us?"
Buchanan is correct, for once at least.
8817. mgleason - 4/21/2002 5:10:40 PM
Funny how those suicide bombers geared up just when it looked as though a deal might be in place, though.
8818. wonkers2 - 4/21/2002 5:14:45 PM
They have been active for a long time and probably will remain so short of total genocide by Sharon. And it's stretching things to say "it looked as though a deal might be in place." Sharon sent Netanyahu to the U.S. as his emissary about the same time and he pissed all over Powell's mission before he ever got to Israel. I will concede that extremists on both sides have been allowed to dominate the field.
8819. mgleason - 4/21/2002 5:20:20 PM
I'm talking about the negotiations between Barak and 'Fat, Wonkers. That's when the bombings went into high gear, when it looked as though 'Fat might actually have to deal.
8820. PelleNilsson - 4/21/2002 5:27:59 PM
maria
That's not at all my recollection of events. The suicide bombings "went into high gear" in the past year. But if you can dig out statistics that prove otherwise I will concede.
8821. wonkers2 - 4/21/2002 5:29:19 PM
Okay, I won't argue about that. And I'm certainly not suggesting that Arafat is any bargain and least of all the organizations who don't want a peace deal along the lines defined several times in the past. However, I'm convinced that group includes Sharon, Netanyahu as well as the Arab terrorists. Sharon has made it pretty clear he doesn't intend to dismantle the settlements.
8822. mgleason - 4/21/2002 5:38:17 PM
Eh, you look 'em up, Pelle. I'm a dilettante today.
8823. Property of Jesus - 4/21/2002 7:16:52 PM
8824. joezan - 4/21/2002 9:09:58 PM
Good link, POJ:
As we stood side-by-side taking in the extraordinary view, the producer turned to me and said in a sort of apologetic tone,
"You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but what exactly are we looking at?"
My stomach instantly dropped. Maybe she was unsure of a specific building?
"No, what is this entire area we are looking at?"
"The Temple Mount!!" I wanted to scream. "It's the most important spot in the entire region!"
I controlled myself and began my first history lesson to a national news producer. I explained how the Jewish people built a
Temple in this spot 3,000 years ago, and how, after its destruction, a second Temple was built in the exact same location.
I explained how Jesus visited this second Jewish Temple, which stood until the Romans ultimately destroyed it in the first
century. I explained how the Muslims came to Jerusalem in the mid-seventh century, soon after the creation of their religion,
building the Al-Asqa Mosque and the Golden Dome. I explained to her that the Western Wall is the remaining retaining wall of
the second Jewish Temple.
As I went through these historic points, the producer was taking furious notes on her yellow writing pad, trying to record the
details of this place so integral to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
A few minutes later, Dan Rather arrived. He climbed the stairs to join us on the roof. As he reached the top stair, he looked out at the view that was spread before him. "Oh, I've been here before," he said. Then, looking at his producer, he quietly asked, "What is this that we're looking at?"
8825. ronski - 4/21/2002 10:36:25 PM
I've posted about the rank stupidity and ignorance of people in television before (I've worked with Rather, Brokaw, et al.), so none of this suprises me.
My questions are:
Does this tale surpise anyone?
Does anyone still think Dan, Peter, Tom, O'Reilly and so on actually influence anybody?
8826. ronski - 4/21/2002 10:41:01 PM
Pike,
I've asked this before, but in the light of recent events, how do you see this Iraeli ethnic cleansing you keep referring to coming about? Do you envision this happening without loss of the U.S.'s annual $3 billion? Do you imagine the pacification of your indigenous Arabs, and how?
8827. joezan - 4/21/2002 10:54:11 PM
An honest question:
Will the Global Community still allow Arafat and the PA to represent the Palestinians when this is over (especially if even half of recent IDF claims regarding evidence linking Arafat to terror can be substantiated)?
This may be a dumb question, since the fucker already owns a nobel prize despite the fact that he is responsible for the Munich massacre.
But now (it seems) they've finally got the goods on him and his gang.
Anyway, about now, with the Jenin "massacre" exposed for exactly what it was (NOT a massacre), and with Arafat the Terrorist still being terrorized himself, I'm thinking that Sharon is a genius - a ruthless, scheming, spiteful bastard of a genius.
Which is exactly what this mess calls for.
I hope he hangs in there, and doesn't give up one damn inch until he has exterminated these rats and gets someone with whom he can negotiate honestly.
8828. ronski - 4/21/2002 11:02:16 PM
joezan, joezan, joezan,
Do you believe for a second that the world will accept the evidence at hand???
It will not. It will take Arafat's line and proclaim that the Jews made it all up.
The world has been Norwegianized.
Fortunately, none of this will stop Bush from sending Saddam to hell.
(Unfortunately, it will not lead to U.S. disengagement from the Middle East in the long run, but that is another story.)
8829. wonkers2 - 4/21/2002 11:42:17 PM
Joe, You have reason there is somebody better waiting in the wings? There are many better in Israel than Sharon. He's the one who should take a long walk on a short pier.
8830. Jonesatlaw - 4/22/2002 12:30:56 AM
At present, Arafat cannot make peace. He is in control only so long as he takes the fight to Israel, once that stops (or seriously slows) the freelancers within his camp take over, as well as those outside his camp. Even if he were to have the will (which I have come to seriously doubt)
to make peace, his prestige has been seriously damaged. He is the original 'comeback kid,' improbably surviving political setbacks that would reduce Clinton to tears, but even he will have trouble turning the latest Israeli incursions and humiliations into a victory. (though the Palestinian ability to see victory in defeat rivals the Irish: I remember the evacuation of Beruit, with morons firing their AK-47's into the air over their 'victory')
Arafat must go. It would be nice if the Palestinians would do it for us, but if not, we will have to grease the skids. We should look to promote the fortunes of as many challengers as possible so long as they are true democrats willing to co-exist with Israel, and are realistic about the possible terms of a final agreement.
Sharon must go as well, because he is similar enough to Arafat in his position and thinking. Again, we cannot do this directly,(President Per Curium could see if Dad has as much pull with the Israeli Supreme Court as he does at home...) given that he was democratically elected, but we can sure give the Israeli voter a few things to think about.
8831. marjoribanks - 4/22/2002 3:51:18 AM
Greetings amigos.
Jetlag has granted me the time to read through the archives of the NYTimes, and I am unsurprised but still rather shocked by the tenor of its reporting on the last couple of weeks in Israel/Palestine. If you live in the US and get your news/comment from the likes of the NYT you really do inhabit a somewhat different planet from the rest of the world.
In any case, it was interesting to hear Israel being discussed abroad, and everyone was discussing it heatedly - especially Americans abroad. If I could point to a certain unanimity of opinion I heard, it was precisely on the lines of my own biggest concern - a fear that the US is foolishly getting itself associated with Israel's activities.
I shall have more to say, but I do want to link in this Fisk article about his speaking tour of the USA.
8832. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 7:15:13 AM
OK, let's do it like this:
I see the following posters on this page:
8833. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 7:17:04 AM
ronski:
joezan, joezan, joezan,
Do you believe for a second that the world will accept the evidence at hand???
Is this sung to the tune of 'Jolene'?
8834. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 7:21:02 AM
I've posted about the rank stupidity and ignorance of people in television before (I've worked with Rather, Brokaw, et al.), so none of this suprises me.
Remember Pete (was it Pete?) from the Mary Tyler Moore show? Bernadette's husband (was it Bernadette?). That character was a lot more realistic than I knew at the time. Most of these guys are just a face with a voice and some intonation.
8835. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 7:28:54 AM
OK, I have a confession, triggered by the Mary Tyler Moore post.
When I was a kid and 'Love, American Style' was on, I could never figure out what the fireworks were for and why the audience was laughing.
8836. mgleason - 4/22/2002 7:45:44 AM
1. Slawyer will call me weak, but I say ask Jex to modify his style the way he did for Jay. If he complies, great, if it's to be war, let him open up the (Middle) Eastern front. History's not on his side.
2. Ted and Georgette were the MTM folks, I think.
3. That show made me think they had fireworks on cruise ships, so boy, did I feel silly when I realized the Truth.
8837. wonkers2 - 4/22/2002 7:51:10 AM
#8832
Wonkers is opposed to capital slashing!
8838. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 8:10:15 AM
2. Ted and Georgette were the MTM folks, I think.
That's so much nicer than saying 'Pike, you senile idiot! You got 2 out of 2 wrong, you sad fuck!'.
Your feminine nature shines through despite assertions regarding your alleged humaninity, mgleason.
8839. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 8:25:32 AM
Pike: Can you tell me the type of military headgear that the some of the Israeli soldiers are wearing in the West Bank. It looks like a French chef hat but brown and pushed down.
I'm assuming it gear-gas/chemical protection equipment attached to a cloth helmet.
8840. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 8:26:56 AM
ronski:
I've asked this before, but in the light of recent events, how do you see this Iraeli ethnic cleansing you keep referring to coming about?
Terror starts up again, Saddam joins in at a certain point, lobs a couple of FAEs at Tel Aviv, incinerates a few hundred people, lobs a couple chemical / biological weapons, misses for the most part, but the (concerted) combination of the Pal terror and Iraqi assault give us the justification (and, indeed the imperative need) to get the Pals the hell out of here while the US finally ices Saddam. This can be accomplished through a combination of massive shelling of the Pal towns, and some vigilante raids by settlers against the villages. It's more a question of showing you have no compunctions about killing all of them, if need be, than actually having to kill a lot of them.
Do you envision this happening without loss of the U.S.'s annual $3 billion?
No, I guess we'll lose that. But it can't last forever anyways. Plus, finally having some room to breathe here, a state with reasonable boundaries (by New Jerseyan standards, anyways), will do wonders for the Jewish people. Economically, too, this will make certain things easier. It will set loose a lot of creative and productive energy. Plus, we'll have a large influx of Jews from Europe and the US (a wave of French Juives is already expected now, post Le Pen). Sure, we'll be isolated and embargoed. But the US won't embargo us, I don't think.
>>>
8841. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 8:29:49 AM
>>>
Do you imagine the pacification of your indigenous Arabs, and how?
They're pretty pacific as it is. They really have never been a problem: their leaders, the so-called Knesset Members, etc., are the problem. But this is a key point, imho: if this turns into a victory for the Kahanists, the Israeli Arabs will also be targeted. In which case I think we will have a major problem with the US, because Kahanism is racism. There is no justification for expelling Israel's Arab citizens.
That's why I think I can have such an important role, if I ever get a hold of Katzir. We can provide a non-Kahanist right-wing alternative, and by virtue of our location, smack dab in the middle of Wadi Ara, we will be an authority for other folks. If we say - 'don't touch the Israeli Arabs, over our dead bodies, don't touch them' (and I already said this once, in an article I wrote for the settler magazine Nekuda) - that'll stop the Kahanists. But only we can stop them from reaching Um el Fahm.
8842. RustlerPike - 4/22/2002 8:31:46 AM
Pike: Can you tell me the type of military headgear that the some of the Israeli soldiers are wearing in the West Bank.
It's a helmet with some sackcloth on it for camouflage, I believe. Easier than having to stick twigs and leaves in it all the time I guess.
8843. betty - 4/22/2002 9:15:44 AM
Marj,
If you live in the US and get your news/comment from the likes of the NYT you really do inhabit a somewhat different planet from the rest of the world
I have sorely missed Ed Herman's "Lies of Our Times" for the last few years. I wish i had the resources and time to publish something of that quality. This country is in need.
8844. betty - 4/22/2002 9:16:29 AM
Pike,
I'm sure you know my position is pro-Jex.
8845. marjoribanks - 4/22/2002 10:22:56 AM
I don't even know what Jexster's transgressions have been (haven't read back in this thread), but I doubt he's been the most offensive poster here anyway.
--
I discovered something interesting on my trip to Goa. There is an ancient church, in a place called Siridao, which everyone knew was pre-Portuguese and assumed it was the creation of Malabarite christians (the ones who appear to have been converted by the Apostle Thomas some decades after Christ's death). But it has been examined by some young architectural historians and it has been determined to actually be a converted synagogue. The builders remain unknown for now, but it appears that they may have been a population of Bene Israelis - a community that believes it has been in India since before the second destruction of the Temple Mount.
Also, I learned that the Iberian Jews who came to India fleeing the early advent of the Inquisition were mirrored by a population that fled to Recife in Brazil. Like the ones in India, who eventually came under threat from an exported Inquisition, the ones in Recife also eventually had to flee. In the case of Recife, many went to North America. The first synagogue in Manhattan was built by these refugees from Recife.
8846. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 10:25:06 AM
Jex should be returned with less-than-full honors.
He's one neo-Nazi Clinton Democrat who should have stayed in the closet.
But, as Willie the Shake wrote: (paraphrase) "Madness in our great ones should not unwatched go."
8847. marjoribanks - 4/22/2002 10:28:50 AM
I also met an old lady, a grandee (if grandees can be female) and head of one of the few prominent families in Goa that admit to being mestizo. She told me quite proudly that her family was founded by a stealth Jew in Albuquerque's employ, an expert in explosives, who seized the chance to start anew in Goa and married the young wife of a Turkish general in (the Turk) Adil Shah's army which occupied Goa before the Portuguese.
She claimed (but vaguely) that the stealth Jew insisted that his family practice stealth Judaism, and these practices lasted even through the 200 years of the Goan Inquisition.
8848. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 10:30:13 AM
Bush's DOD has a good policy of releasing full transcript of interviews with journalists before they write their articles.
Keeps the news organization/journalist honest, especially when you're dealing with the NYTimes
Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz Interview with New York Times After his speech to Pro-Israel Rally
8849. robertjayb - 4/22/2002 10:31:39 AM
Woman describes the mentality of a suicide bomber...(USA Today)
Her nails manicured and hair pulled from her face, the Palestinian woman asks that she be called by an Arabic name for a faint star — Suha. She talks about her decision to be a suicide bomber.
8850. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 10:33:27 AM
It's all about the white raisins.
8851. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 10:43:54 AM
Rustler
I abstain from voting on jexter. I'm a tool, not a policymaker. I can't supply you a backbone.
8852. zojak quafeth - 4/22/2002 10:46:31 AM
Ouch. Not very nice there julio.
8853. concerned - 4/22/2002 12:38:51 PM
8817. mgleason - 4/21/02 10:10:40 PM
Funny how those suicide bombers geared up just when it looked as though a deal might be in place, though.
How's that? It's precisely what one would expect from those who want to destroy Israel.
8854. PelleNilsson - 4/22/2002 1:30:49 PM
Welcome back, marj! Nice pics there in the GL.
Jex is basically a good guy if he can be persuaded not to carpet-bomb the thread with irrelevant posts and links.
8855. concerned - 4/22/2002 1:38:20 PM
I'm here for the relevant stuff, if people can handle it.....
8856. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 1:38:31 PM
I understand that when you get to know him, Al Sharpton is jes' folks as well.
8857. CalGal - 4/22/2002 1:41:29 PM
I think the idea of voting is silly. All RP has to do is move the posts.
8858. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 1:42:34 PM
Larry Miller
Her guests were (INSERT INDISTINGUISHABLE ARAB NAME), from Hamas, and their attorney, Stanley Cohen. No, that's not a joke. Would that it were. Stanley Cohen, the attorney for Hamas. Check that handle again: Stanley Cohen. I mean, if you tried to make up a better name than that, you couldn't do it. Let's give it a shot, though, shall we? Irving Lefkowitz. Nah, too obvious. Lew Fishman. No, no, sounds like a carpet salesman. Isaac Bashevis Singer? Now I'm reaching. Nope, you just can't beat good ol' Stan Cohen. Yes, Stanley Cohen, folks, a hard-left, righteously indignant true-believer, an honors graduate from the William Kunstler School of Just-Not-Getting-It-And-Never-Will, who had flown all the way from New York to sit next to his wonderful client over there in not the land of milk and honey. Stanley Cohen. A man who, if he listened very carefully, would no doubt hear voices in the next room planning to blow the eyes out of more of his nieces and nephews. Stanley Cohen, and even typing that name right now and remembering this horrible man damning his own people again and again and again, I crack a nervous smile, because they're my people, too, and, God help me, if I didn't laugh, I think I might cry.
8859. Wombat - 4/22/2002 1:45:22 PM
More hard-hitting and insightful material from JC. At least Jexter links to news stories (most of the time).
8860. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 1:45:32 PM
PALS SHOOT THREE LOCALS WITHOUT TRIAL
8861. concerned - 4/22/2002 1:45:55 PM
I'm marj's proxy and he votes: Off With Jex's Head!
8862. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 1:48:51 PM
Wombat
It's a shame when someone reaches the point of conviction where there hasty bon mot squeezes out alternative material and sense of humor. Read the piece. Have chuckle. Maybe even a drink.
8863. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 1:49:05 PM
there=their
8864. CalGal - 4/22/2002 1:52:00 PM
Larry Miller is extremely funny. That's a great piece. I'm surprised that you approve of it, JC, given that you thought it inappropriate to say that the Bush administration cared about how it looked.
8865. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 1:55:48 PM
Yes. I shocked myself as well. I'll have to bang my vision back into a funnell as soon as possible.
8866. PelleNilsson - 4/22/2002 2:07:31 PM
The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
I don't think that is funny at all. I think that is the rantings of one who has bought the settler ideology lock, stock and barrel and is incapable of independent thought.
8867. CalGal - 4/22/2002 2:13:25 PM
I'll have to bang my vision back into a funnell as soon as possible.
Yes, be sure and do that. Or maybe I was just griping mildly because you were offended when I mentioned the possibility, but amused when he did.
8868. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 2:23:47 PM
Pelle, Cal. Cal, Pelle. Uma, Ophra. Ophra, Uma.
Adios.
8869. PelleNilsson - 4/22/2002 2:24:26 PM
And this:
... has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth
Funny???
God, how I hate racism.
8870. CalGal - 4/22/2002 2:26:24 PM
JC,
????
I enjoyed the piece.
8871. betty - 4/22/2002 2:32:15 PM
Pelle,
If you just replace Jew with Arab it could be Nazi propaganda. Where's Sto, he did that marvelously well.
8872. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 2:50:44 PM
DEMOCRATS vs. ISRAEL by William Safire
8873. mgleason - 4/22/2002 3:04:37 PM
Yeah, Betty, that's what bothers me about that kind of thing: it's Jex's Julius Streicher rants tarted up.
8874. CalGal - 4/22/2002 3:14:39 PM
Well, except for the fact that there are African tribes more backward, what is objectionable? He's saying that the leaders of Arab countries are using anger about Israel to distract their people from problems in their own country. That's hardly news, and it has been discussed by Friedman, Hoagland, Ajami, and a host of other respectable commentators.
8875. betty - 4/22/2002 3:16:19 PM
maria,
I agree, i don't care where it comes from, that kind of shit is only there to prolong violence and ignorance and to degrade the humanity of the "opposition". Unbelievable.
8876. mgleason - 4/22/2002 3:22:36 PM
CG,
Denying a national identity to a group of people is a good way to dehumanize them, as Betty points out. It's cheap stuff, not at all unlike the vitriol which spills from Arab newspapers and textbooks.
8877. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 3:23:44 PM
Oh please. First of all, Miller's piece is broad satire. Second of all, it is pretty much factually accurate, the pathetic broddings of equivalency aside. Third, if jexster could pony up 1/1000 of the wit of Larry Miller, Rustler wouldn't have put a price on his head, and I wouldn't be looking for him.
8878. mgleason - 4/22/2002 3:25:58 PM
As I said, Julius Streicher rants tarted up.
8879. CalGal - 4/22/2002 3:27:31 PM
MG,
Larry Miller is a comic, so excesses are permitted. But again, he's not making any point that more restrained analysts haven't made as well.
Arab countries are backwards, for the most part. The leaders deliberately encourage anger towards American and Israel in the hopes that the people won't notice they live in a festering backwater with no hope, no jobs, and very little water. It is absurd to think that all that anger is really over a little slice of land.
I don't think he said anything untrue.
8880. bubbaette - 4/22/2002 3:29:05 PM
Oh! HaHa! Racism is ok as long as it's FUNNY racism. I think I got it now.
8881. CalGal - 4/22/2002 3:31:16 PM
What was racist about it? Racist would be declaring that Arabs were capable of nothing more, rather than pointing out that, for whatever reason, they haven't accomplished anything in centuries.
8882. bubbaette - 4/22/2002 3:31:24 PM
Also telling that in Julius' view Jexter's crimes sufficient for banning weren't spam or abuse, but being insufficiently amusing.
8883. mgleason - 4/22/2002 3:35:35 PM
Well, you have to admit that Jex's output on Friday would have gotten him caned in Singapore, not to mention the British public schools of the Caesar's fantasies.
8884. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 3:39:52 PM
Actually, racism is permitted if it is funny. Ask Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy, Don Imus, Jackie Mason, the writers of Animal House, etc. The list goes on.
But Cal is correct. It is fair to ask, since the charge has been leveled. What was racist about it? Characterization, no matter how clever, does not suffice as evidence.
8885. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 3:41:29 PM
As for British public schools, let me be clear. My fondness only lies in the uniforms, as worn by women named Ariana at The Dollhouse in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
8886. CalGal - 4/22/2002 3:44:54 PM
In fact, the one potentially racist comment Miller made was directed at Jews:
No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.
8887. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 3:45:04 PM
Wait. Angus can wear a British school outift pretty well.
Angus
8888. desertlily - 4/22/2002 4:17:41 PM
Hi! Back after a very long absence, just wanted to say that describing people as they actually are, has not even the slightest racist connotation.
8889. sakonige - 4/22/2002 4:26:22 PM
Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."
If you are looking for a phony "people" who have constructed a false nation around themselves, you need look no further than the United States of America and its client state, Israel. Let's call Americans and Israelis "other Europeans whose gluttonous consumption is spreading across the planet making every land a contaminated wasteland and every sea a dead sea."
8890. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 4:28:56 PM
Can you make it funnier?
8891. sakonige - 4/22/2002 4:31:07 PM
Maybe if I was drinking. When I am sober, Americans just make me sick.
8892. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 4:33:38 PM
Drink up. It's need to be more punchy, less morose.
8893. CalGal - 4/22/2002 4:38:07 PM
other Europeans whose gluttonous consumption is spreading across the planet making every land a contaminated wasteland and every sea a dead sea."
Actually, I thought that was mildly amusing, in an Audrey Hepburn pretending to be a beatnik in Funny Face kind of way.
8894. sakonige - 4/22/2002 4:43:48 PM
Let’s call Israelis what they are.
You are not Nazis, that’s true: you are a bunch of vulgar, heartless butchers, slayers of old people, child killers, filthy humiliators of women, land thieves, looters of shanty homes, unprincipled bullies, moral idiots, arrogant colonizing beasts attempting to enlarge your country by belittling your (all) humanity. But we will not let you keep your innocence. You will at least lose that in your massacre of these giants: you are degrading yourselves to the exact extent of your crimes. You may win, but you will not convince us of your purity. You will keep the land and the water of your victims, but we will not forgive you. You may be invulnerable, but you will no longer give us any lessons. You will strut up and down the desert of all values, meeting no resistance, but you will be small, vulgar, worthless, like all those who build their worldly greatness on their moral impotence. Israel (let us leave the Jews alone) is no longer the name of a people; it is the name of an exterminating angel, the cipher of a crime, the temperature of an ideology. And if you don’t make haste to correct yourselves, if you don’t think it over in a hurry and change the direction of your steps, you will end up erasing the memory of the Holocaust, which memory the rest of us will have to keep alive against you. One day, when people wish to exaggerate, describe the essence of an outrage, name the most execrable behavior, or vent with an insult the pain of an injustice, they will no longer say “Nazi” but “Israeli”. And that, in effect, would not be just either.
Well stated, by Santiago Alba Rico.
8895. sakonige - 4/22/2002 4:45:47 PM
Message # 8893
The way you people filthy the water gets to me. It's always the first thing that comes to mind when I think of you.
8896. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 4:48:02 PM
Village Video called. Dances with Wolves is overdue by 4 years, 3 months, and 22 days.
8897. Wombat - 4/22/2002 4:51:29 PM
Racist-Schmacist. I didn't find anything funny about the piece. I just cannot find anything funny about a situation that deteriorated from two sides trying to arrive at a two-state solution through negotiation and compromise to the current situation. I also find the willingness of many posters to uncritically buy the Sharon government's explanation of the situation--without recognizing its agenda, and its self-admitted futility--upsetting.
8898. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 4:53:11 PM
Sometimes, you gotta' laugh.
Or get upset.
8899. Julius Caesar - 4/22/2002 4:54:14 PM
As for the current situation, it has been as such, with ebbs and flows, for about 60 years.
8900. sakonige - 4/22/2002 4:55:48 PM
What's funny is how superior the shitwater Europeans think their civilization is to arid Muslim cultures. Persistant drought may alter that perception over time.
8901. concerned - 4/22/2002 4:57:36 PM
sak -
Why don't you spell out the areas where you think Islamic culture is superior to Western culture, starting with slavery and human rights?
8902. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 4:57:40 PM
Time for a rain dance, maybe?
8903. CalGal - 4/22/2002 4:58:28 PM
I don't uncritically buy Sharon's position, and that would be my biggest quibble with the piece. But it was still funny.
8904. concerned - 4/22/2002 5:30:06 PM
I read the piece and have to say that Miller's slam against the LAT was unforgivable. But what would you expect from a jexster equivalent?
8905. concerned - 4/22/2002 5:32:40 PM
Speaking of jexster, where is he on the first day of his renewed good graces in the Mote? Marj, Sak and others yearn for their mouthpiece. Btw, I'm becoming weary of filling in for jexster.
8906. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 5:57:23 PM
Unfortunately for the high-brow,intellectuals there, Jexster is now posting at THE ATLANTIC.
8907. concerned - 4/22/2002 6:09:31 PM
Any comments from him about the Mote?
8908. concerned - 4/22/2002 6:19:58 PM
Well, I for one hope Jexster shows up again, if not perhaps quite so often as just before his 'timeout'. Cllrdr seems to have almost eliminated his froth factor and I would like to see at least one reasonably good humored Lefty foil posting in the Mote.
8909. Property of Jesus - 4/22/2002 6:26:36 PM
No comments about mote, concerned. He seems uncertain of his role there.
If you post at THE ATLANTIC you must have wit that can creep, and pride that licks the dust.
8910. concerned - 4/22/2002 6:28:59 PM
Re. 8909 -
Sounds like my half life there would be measured in days, then:)
8911. arkymalarky - 4/22/2002 6:41:41 PM
Hahahaha!
RP,
I gave my vote on Jex before you posted. You can handle it. I have total faith in you. You don't need a tool.
Just to prove to yourself you can, go ahead. Dump my post in the Inferno.
8912. Andonly - 4/22/2002 10:08:01 PM
Santiago Alba Rico: one more guilt-soaked Catholic leftist ideologue thrilled to have a reason to toss off Jewish whining about the Holocaust.
Is his ranting more the product of Ariel Sharon or Simon Wiesenthal?
8913. sakonige - 4/22/2002 10:30:05 PM
I'm not sure. The paragraph I quoted was part of a long and very rambling diatribe. I just happened to like the Latino flavor of that particular curse.
8914. joezan - 4/22/2002 11:04:49 PM
A very strange story, from Ha'aretz:
Ze'evi suspects go on trial at Ramallah compound
The trial of the four Palestinians accused of the murder of right-wing Israeli cabinet minister Rehavam Ze'evi began yesterday at Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's besieged Ramallah compound, sources in the compound told Ha'aretz.
The trial is apparently under the auspices of the Supreme Court for State Security, which operates beyond the Palestinian civil judiciary system. According to the sources, the judges in the trial are three Palestinian security officers who are also holed up in the compound. The judges in such a court usually come from the Palestinian security forces and do not have to have a legal background.
One of the defendants, A'had Ulama, who Israel believes headed the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine's military wing, was brought into the hall in a wheelchair, after breaking both legs when jumping out of a Nablus apartment trying to escape arrest.
8915. Andonly - 4/22/2002 11:06:11 PM
This business about the Pals not being "a people" is absurd rationalizing, but whoever thinks it is racist should recall that Pseudoerasmus made exactly the same argument about Jews right here (or rather, in the International thread), a bit more than a year ago. I don't recall anyone jumping up to revile as "racist" his claim that Jews prior to 1948 were not a people. (Anyone but Pike, that is.)
The fact is, the creation of Israel created as well a sub-population of Arabs whose identity was defined by the fact of the Jewish state, who developed shared goals, shared grievances, and a sense of shared destiny. That's all it takes: they became a people. They're a people now.
8916. Andonly - 4/22/2002 11:25:29 PM
From Joezan's link:
PA spokesmen hinted recently that Arafat intended to try the four, whose extradition Israel has demanded and whose presence in the compound is one of the reasons why Israel Defense Forces tanks remain positioned around Arafat's Ramallah headquarters. The spokesmen said that the Oslo Accords did not compel the PA to hand over wanted men or suspects to Israel, but rather to arrest them, thwart their activities and bring them to trial under Palestinian law.
So, let's see: if they're found guilty, Arafat summarily executes them, right? No?
I guess he imprisons them in the next room and reduces their rations of hardboiled eggs. Viva Oslo!
8917. Andonly - 4/22/2002 11:27:10 PM
But what I've been wondering is, if your were a French Jew, whom would you have voted for the other day?
8918. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 12:06:36 AM
Arky:
I have total faith in you. You don't need a tool.
Sounds like what my wife said when she was trying to con me into cunnilingus.
PoJ:
Those Pal collaborators (if indeed that's what they were) weren't just shot. I saw a glimpse of one of them lying in a puddle of his own blood in the street, arms and legs obviously broken, trying to shout out something to the Pals around him.
JC:
That Miller piece had me guffawing out loud in a way I don't remember guffawing for a long long time. The beginning was a bit slow (one-for-the-staircase etc.) but afterwards it was pure genius. Great. Does his stuff reach a lot of people?
8919. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 12:24:36 AM
JC:
I donno, I guess I'm a democrat by nature. I really feel like I learn a lot from every additional voice out there. Jexster was disrupting the thread, true, but I've disrupted a thread or two in my day - I'm not sure banning is the best way to automatically handle these situations. In the long run, it could create a lot of resentment. If sakko thought I was abusing my authority she might leave, and then someone else might, etc. I'd be left alone with my tool, and that's no good now, is it?
If there is a need for banning, I think a jury of the people should make the decision, as it is ultimately the Moters who own this place, not me or Pelle or even The Carrot Muncher, Hallowed Be Her Name. I know that sounds wussy so I'll stop.
Having said that, I do hope jexster stays out, for a while at least, or maybe forever. The thread seems to have picked up since he was cauterized. So there is something to be said for executive authoritary asserting itself too.
Perhaps the solution should involve a jury approving the banning. That sounds good, I'll think about it.
8920. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 12:46:58 AM
One last thought:
We're all proud people. You're a proud guy. Banishment is humiliating. That's why Ace never came back, that's why jexs may not. So having me in a position to axe anyone whenever I feel like it does not create an atmosphere that would attract proud posters, but rather wussy ones. I prefer posters with an attitude.
8921. betty - 4/23/2002 8:10:49 AM
she was trying to con me into cunnilingus.
Pike,
yer in much worse shape than I thought. Perhpas we should discuss this matter in Sex...
8922. wonkers2 - 4/23/2002 8:19:24 AM
Israel's government accuses Terje Roed-Larsen, respected UN Representative from Norway, of "anti-semitic ideas" for expressing his horror at what Israel did to Jenin. "By most accounts, Mr. Sharon's antipathy for Roed-Larsen prredates the current furor, and is grounded in the prime minister's abhorrence of the Oslo accords. Since his election, Sharon has refused to meet him and has resented his constant efforts to act as go-between between Arafat and the Israeli government." Roed-Larsen's wife is ambassador from Norway to Israel. Sharon craps in his own mess kit.
8923. wonkers2 - 4/23/2002 8:25:43 AM
Sharon to send IDF to Europe to fight anti-semitic terrorism there??
8924. wonkers2 - 4/23/2002 8:31:58 AM
8925. sakonige - 4/23/2002 8:52:23 AM
Rustler, I enjoy hearing your views as an Israeli from inside Israel, whether I ever make an effort to post anything myself worth reading. I'm not really concerned with expressing my own opinions here. I'm an outsider to the situation.
8926. sakonige - 4/23/2002 8:53:09 AM
There is a Palestinian (American?) journalist posting in the Israel/Palestine thread in Khaval's forum some of you might like to meet. He seem well informed, thoughtful, and articulate.
8927. Andonly - 4/23/2002 12:53:19 PM
1. Don't ban Jexster. Move his disruptive posts to the Inferno or delete them.
2. That Miller piece, irrespective of the stuff about Pal non-peoplehood, was nastily bigoted and not nearly funny enough to pass the sniff test.
3. Betty is right, Pike: you're clearly not making it in bed.
4. If anyone ever again uses the phrase "respected UN Representative from Norway" with regard to Terje Larsen in my presence, I will hunt down the rhetorical offender and throw up on his shoes.
8928. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 12:58:26 PM
1. Don't ban jexster. Tame him.
2. The "amen" chorus on the Miller piece is full-throated, save for delineating exactly what he wrote that was bigoted (Cal pointed out the language that could have been considred anti-Semitic).
3. Pike, don't give in. It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a vortex wrapped in a condundrum. Stick with what you know. Even respected Un representative from Norway Terje Larsen will tell you that.
8929. bubbaette - 4/23/2002 1:02:22 PM
If you practice cunnilingus, you don't need condundrums.
8931. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:03:31 PM
I never get enough practice time. I'm always thrown into a game-time situation.
The pressure is unbearable.
8932. Jonesatlaw - 4/23/2002 1:10:25 PM
FWIW Miller's piece has a real howler at the end- the comment about giving Hitler equal time in 1941. Either Miller has his dates wrong or he's forgotten the German-American Bund, Ford's cordial relationship with the Fueher and Lindy's comments on German air progress, let alone the more subtle issue of isolationism or refusing admission to fleeing Jews from Europe.
As for Hirohito, well we wrung our hands mightly over the rape of Nanking, and tolerated US airman working for Chaing Kai-Shek under Chenault, but apologists for Japan or at least advocates of a hands off policy were not rare. Now if he means 1942, post December 7th, the point is much stronger. But the differences between the two situations are considerable.
8933. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:16:07 PM
Jones
So what? Your objections are niggling.
The larger point - and the absurd one - is MSNBC entertaining a "spokesman" for Hamas. It is akin to having Koppel say, "And after our break, we'll hear the opposing view on the propriety of eterminating the Jews from Heinrich Himmler".
That the press wants to fill time is a peculiar need of having to sell a lot of adult diapers. That they populate that time with any retard is also a problem solely for the viewer. But to the extent the "spokesmen" for The Crips, or Hamas, or the Nazis, or NAMBLA are given time on their shows, they should be judged just as I would judge you if you invited them to your home to mingle with guests.
Harshly.
8934. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:20:28 PM
The Hamas Charter
For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails . . . . [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.
Oh, by all means, let's get the spokesman for Hamas on at once!
8935. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:21:53 PM
The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men and play a great role in guiding and educating the [new] generation.
Mommy . . . my beloved manufacturer.
8936. bubbaette - 4/23/2002 1:27:40 PM
You know, Julius, you could practice instead of spending all this time on the internet. You need to learn to prioritize.
8937. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 1:29:52 PM
I thought the funniest line was the one about algebra. That had me guffawing wildly.
8938. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:33:11 PM
My point is, if American TV calls up and wants to put these philanthropists on, who could blame them for saying, "Sure!" I can just see them bursting out laughing and slapping each other on the back. ("They're going to put us on Fox TV! I told you terror works! And I'll bet their Green Room beats the snot out of Al Jazeera. I mean, please, how many olives can you eat?")
8939. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:33:55 PM
bubb
As I type, I'm tonguing the monitor. It is being predictably non-responsive.
8940. Jonesatlaw - 4/23/2002 1:34:50 PM
That's right Julius, we don't need to hear from Hamas or anyone else like them. After all, they have no effect on our nation. We can just ignore them, and what they say. We shouldn't pay any attention to what their gripes are, and decide for ourselves what is legitimate and what is not. That's what our leaders are for. It is our duty to blindly accept on faith what they tell us and not aspire to acquire information, assess it and form our own opinions.
8941. Jonesatlaw - 4/23/2002 1:38:30 PM
Julius- BTW, Do I get to judge you by your clients too?
8942. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:41:53 PM
Jones
We disagree. You want to give voice to animals because they affect us and we may learn from them. That's cable's cover, but they really just want to keep the airwaves filled with goatboys and monkeyfaces and bearded women for your viewing pleasure.
You buy it, as is your prerogative.
Van Susteren: So, what is this about these camps, these extermination camps wer hear about . . .
Himmler: Poppycock. Zionist nonsense from the dregs of Jewry. The Jews will make up anything. It is their nature.
Jonesatlaw: (at home) Hmmmm. I have a better grasp of the situation.
8943. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:42:15 PM
Jones
Yes.
8944. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:44:38 PM
Though, just because you adhere to a code which may provide you the ethical justification you require to do what you do, you don't have to sell that adherance to Greta van Susteren and her vaunted desire to sell you Pringles.
8945. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 1:48:57 PM
Al Ahram interviews a Jenin bombmaker:
Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared," he says. "We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month."
Omar and other "engineers" made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations.
"We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said.
"We cut off lengths of mains water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four metres apart throughout the houses -- in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas."
The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside rubbish bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men.
Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery.
According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan.
"We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. "If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend."
>>>
8946. bubbaette - 4/23/2002 1:49:31 PM
Going back to what I found offensive about Miller's "funny" clip from yesterday is the notion that the refugees have no right to a homeland because there was no "palestine" when Israel was created. There were no people disposessed? There were no people who have been pushed out by Israeli settlements? The over 50-year-old refugee camps are inhabited by whom, then? And then there's the notion that these people and there desire for a homeland is invalid because Arabs are dirty poor and backward folk. Reminds me of things you'd hear about blacks in the South. No sense in them having anything nice because they'd just ruin it.
8947. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 1:49:38 PM
>>>
And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers?
"They were lured there," he says. "We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving." The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby- trapped area.
"When the senior officers realised what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire.
"Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us."
8948. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 1:54:49 PM
bubb - From a Horowitz article
The struggle in the Middle East is not now and has never been about land. Israel occupies a minuscule 1 percent of the Arab Middle East and less than 10 percent of the entire Palestine Mandate, which was not even a political entity -- let alone a nation -- when the Jews' rights were granted. It was just a "mandate" carved by the British out of the Turkish Empire after the First World War, and then allotted 90 percent to the Palestinian Arabs and 10 percent to the Jews.
Today the land called Jordan -- a nation wholly created by Britain -- occupies 80 percent of the landmass that made up the original Palestine Mandate. Nearly 70 percent of its inhabitants are still Palestinian Arabs, yet Jordan is not the target of a Palestine liberation movement. How is this possible? It is possible because the Hashemites who rule Palestinian Jordan, and are a minority within Jordan, are Muslims not Jews. The Middle East War is not about land and not about injustice. It is a religious war -- a jihad -- against the Jews.
In 1949 Jordan annexed the West Bank -- that is, the entire territory that is allegedly in dispute -- and held it for 18 long years up to, and until, the 1967 Arab war against Israel. Jordan and the other Arab states lost this war, and the Jews retained control of it because the Arab states refused to make peace and recognize Israel, and Israel refused to return land to declared enemies, lest they use it as a staging area for war against Israel a third time. Not once in all those 18 years was there complaint from the Palestinians or their "liberation" organization or the other Arab states about the injustice done to the inhabitants of the West Bank. Not once was there an outcry that Jordan had annexed the Palestine "nation."
A homeland can be had. Eradication of the Jews cannot.
8949. concerned - 4/23/2002 2:00:57 PM
PA Demonstration Against UN Jenin Fact-Finders
Who are you going to believe? Your lying eyes or the Palestinians?
8951. wonkers2 - 4/23/2002 2:31:52 PM
Andonly, How about "a very honest broker?" Looks to me, in addition to wonkers, you have a lot of Israeli shoes to barf on! Is it just possible you don't like honest brokers or respected UN representatives?
Roed-Larsen--"A very honest broker."
"Since the current violence began 19 mos. ago, he bas brought together the ambassadors of the U.S., Russia and the EU to help mediate between the Israelis and Palestinians.
"Among his colleagues, Mr. Roed-Larsen is kown for his intimate knowledge of the complex politics of Israel and the PA, and for his quick humor.
"He said that aside from Mr. Sharon, he had had good relations with all Israeli prime ministers since 1993. He said that he found it puzzling that he was being accused of saying there had been a massacre in Jenin, which he did not, and of never spoken out about suicide bombings against Israelis. he said he had condemned every suicide bombing as 'morally repugnant and an outrage.'
"Defense of Mr. Roed-Larsen has come from Israeli officials he has worked with over the years. 'Generally speaking he's a great friend of Israel,' said Danny Yantom, former head of Mossad.
"Uri Savir, an Israeli negotiator who worked with Roed-Larsen on the Oslo accords, called the charges a 'disgrace.'
Ron Pundak, an academic who was involved in the secret meetings in Oslo and who is now director of the Peres Center for Peace, described the attacks on Mr. Roed-Larsen as 'outrageous.'
"'Knowing him for almost a decade, I can say he's definitely not anti-Israeli,' Mr Pundak said. 'I consider him a very honest broker.'"
Serge Schmemann, NYT 4-23-2002
8952. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 2:41:17 PM
Hapoel Tel Aviv out of contention for the the national cup.
8953. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2002 2:49:09 PM
The struggle in the Middle East is not now and has never been about land.
That is possibly the most stupid statement I have ever read about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It is evidence of the total ignorance, or prejudice, by the one who wrote it and the one who quoted it.
"Not about land"! Hahahahahaha! Go tell that to Sharon.
8954. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 3:03:56 PM
Pelle
The land could have been had time and time again. For the Israelis, the land they occupy is primarily about security, as is evidenced by the fact that they were recently willing to give up about 97% of it for certain guarantees. Unfortunately, the deal Barak was offering did not include the movement of Jews from the Middle East to South Dakota, so, pursuant to the Hamas Manifesto, no dice.
Pelle, how you subsist on the thin gruel of conventional wisdom and the generalized bromides of thin thinkers is a wonder. I suppose the tossed-off vanilla platitude can be very filling.
8955. Wombat - 4/23/2002 3:19:40 PM
JC:
I'll begin taking your postings seriously when you give evidence of recognizing that there is a sizeable proportion of the Israeli electorate--made even more powerful by Israel's cockamamie electoral system--that had no intention of giving the Palestinians anything after Oslo. These people are now running the country.
8956. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2002 3:24:34 PM
... they were recently willing to give up about 97% of it for certain guarantees
So it is about land then. 'Land for peace' has been and and continues to be the formula for all negotiations so far.
Please don't give me that supercilious shit about 'thin gruel of conventional wisdom and the generalized bromides of thin thinkers'. You haven't entered this discussion until recently, and so far you have failed to provide evidence of any independent thought on the matter.
8957. wonkers2 - 4/23/2002 3:25:50 PM
He'll never do that. Julio approaches Mote discussions like a lawyer for the tobacco industry. Never admit anything, never give an inch, pay for the best research money can buy, and above all, shred the files every month whether they need it or not.
8958. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 3:32:26 PM
Wombat
Thanks for the update as to when you'll start to take my posts seriously. I'll update my daytimer.
And I accept your premise. If you were surrounded by barbarians at all of your gates, you too might dig your heels in on giving up land where no security may be purchased.
8959. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 3:37:34 PM
Pelle
When you do more than make lame-o scoffs that appeal to minions like wonkers, you'll get what you deserve. The longevity of your banalities is no commendation.
For the Palestinians, it's not about land. It's primarily about killing or otherwise ridding themselves of Jews. It is a clash of cultures, and you (and others) sit on the bench jawing about how clitorectomies may be awful to us, but who are we to judge a culture that is merely different in the broad mosaic?
And then wonkers rises and tuts "Good show!"
8960. Andonly - 4/23/2002 3:40:11 PM
JC:
"My point is, if American TV calls up and wants to put these Black Panther/SLA philanthropists on, who could blame them for saying, "Sure!" I can just see them bursting out laughing and slapping each other on the back. ("They're going to put us on Fox TV! I told you terror works! And I'll bet their Green Room beats the snot out of the BET Network. I mean, please, how much watermelon can you eat?")"
8961. ronski - 4/23/2002 3:47:47 PM
As we post a plan is being drawn up in Washington with a very precise drawing of the boundaries of the new Palestinian State and Israel, which will be rammed down the throats of all parties by the U.S., someday. How soon, I don't know.
Or so I suspect.
8962. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 3:50:07 PM
Andonly
It's funny, but not as funny the second time around, for tow reasons. One, it's easier to go further in maligning mass murderers. Two, sadly, American blacks have always been unjustifiably the third-rail of political correctness. But change watermelon to Popeye's, and you have a good Chris Rock bit that'll bring down the house on HBO. Which, by the way, is a good sign for race relations, as I'd expect you'd agree that immunity to racial jibes is inversely proportional to racial self-esteem.
You might even stifle a chuckle at the Rock bit.
8963. CalGal - 4/23/2002 3:53:52 PM
BET and watermelon are not analogous to Al Jazeera and olives. Olives are about as innocuous as you can get.
Now, if he'd said hummus....
8964. bubbaette - 4/23/2002 3:56:17 PM
I just don't understand how, when a country has a refugee camp for more than 50 YEARS for dispossessed, (with limited egress and armed checkpoints)it can be argued that the issues of those so dispossessed are not related to not having a homeland.
That's not to say that I think that the Palestinians are 100% in the right or the Israelis are 100% right (which seems to be the jumping off point for debate here).
8965. CalGal - 4/23/2002 3:58:12 PM
I just don't understand how, when a country has a refugee camp for more than 50 YEARS for dispossessed
Friedman points out that the very length of time that their problems have gone unresolved suggests that it is far more than just a fight over a homeland, and is due to the failure of their leadership.
8966. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 4:10:30 PM
The people are dispossessed because they, their terrorist enablers, and their Arab world sponsors want them dispossessed.
Right has nothing to do with it.
At present, Israel is beset by those who wish it destroyed. Nothing less.
To talk so prematurely of a deal for land blindly ignores the realities, a typically Polyanna American/European conceit which a) allows us to appear reasonable and b) relieves us of having to choose a side in a cultural conflict.
I understand that Metternichian logistical reasons for this conceit. But to see it bandied about on the strength of its own merits without regard to American foreign policy interest is mind-boggling.
Yet, like the seasons, you see it here and elsewhere - Israel should deal land to those who would terrorize it; Israel should give sovereignty to those who would incinerate it.
Europeans, I can understand. They have a history of misunderstanding dangerous cultural forces based on years of hubris and a false sense of superiority.
But Americans carved this land out of clashing with inimical cultures. And when attacked from abroad, it acts with vicious and purposeful violence.
8967. Andonly - 4/23/2002 4:16:06 PM
Wombat, you get no points for hauling up Israelis to testify on Larsen's behalf. This is the same moron who explained that the way for Israel to disarm Hizbullah's claims against IDF occupation of "Lebanon" in the wake of Israel's UN-certified withdrawal from Lebanon was for Israel to pull out of the Shebaa Farms buffer territory Hiz claims is Lebanese, but which the UN and Israel and even the Lebanese (until it became convenient) said was Syrian. As though this would have any pacifying effect at all on Lebanese rage at Israel, which is manipulated by Syria and necessitated by Lebanese's need to hate somebody more than they hate each other, or on Hizbullah, which aids the Pals and is facilitated by Syria, and could operate that much closer to northern Israel in the absence of the Shebaa ocupation. That occupation cannot end until Israel has an agreement with SYRIA, not when it has given Hizbullah yet another victory to claim over the "soft" Jews. This is the same Hizbullah that regards the entire Jewish state as an unameable "Zionist entity", aids those Pals who feel similarly, and intends to fight indefinitely; it fucking will not, ever, be pacified and mollified by Israeli concessions.
From what I can gather, Terje Roed-Larsen isn't trustworthy because he is not attached to reality. Pretty much anything the man says is suspect, and any defense of him on the part of liberal Israelis and the New York Times can be dismissed as politicking.
8968. Andonly - 4/23/2002 4:16:30 PM
Conservative Jewish pundit Mark Steyn
...you can understand why the UN's head man, Mr Roed-Larsen, would rather talk about "unacceptable" Israeli conduct than why his "refugee" camp (funded by British taxpayers) is, in fact, a bomb factory with on-site demonstration facilities. Mr Roed-Larsen's operation is a large part of the problem in the region. It's possible he himself hasn't a clue what's going on: that appeared to be the case 18 months ago, when Hizbollah guerrillas crossed over from Lebanon in UN-marked cars, abducted three IDF soldiers and murdered them, and Mr Roed-Larsen's subordinates embarked on a nine-month cover-up of relevant video evidence. The intemperate grandee might once again merely be out of the loop. But it beggars belief that officials on the ground in the UN-managed camp weren't aware of the scale of terrorist activities: there are only so many blind eyes you can turn. That's what's "horrific beyond belief": that the UN is complicit in terrorism.
8969. Andonly - 4/23/2002 4:17:53 PM
Sorry, the above should have been lobbed at Wonkers, believer in Terje Roed-Larsen, "honest broker".
8970. Wombat - 4/23/2002 4:20:01 PM
JC:
I dunno. Every post of yours gets stupider and stupider. I guess it reflects the paucity of your knowledge and the weakness of the Sharonista's stance.
After the Oslo Accords were signed, most Palestinians were in favor of a two state solution, with a small but dangerous fringe against. Israel was split virtually 50-50.
You claim--buying the Sharon argument hook, line and sinker--that the Palestinians went along with Oslo, but only to establish their own truncated state as a jumping off point for the total elimination of Israel.
Leaving aside just how the Palestinians would eliminate Israel, let me remind you how permanent so-called provisional and temporary arrangements can become. The Irish accepted an incomplete solution in 1921, with every intention of unifying Ireland, through fighting or peaceful means sometime in the future. Northern Ireland has proved to be a problem, but in spite of that, Ireland has proven to be a viable state, and although many Irish still want a unified Ireland, Sinn Fein's persistently dismal showing in the elections show that there is little support for forcible unification.
8971. Wombat - 4/23/2002 4:28:01 PM
Andonly:
I agree with Wonkers and the Times article. Terje Roed-Larsen was smeared by the Israeli government and its American apologists. Talk about politicking.
8972. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 4:38:42 PM
Wombat
Your attraction to what you deem stupid is fascinating. Your tie of a claim to a person is anti-intellectual but also in vogue (i.e., if Sharon believes it, it is suspect).
After the Oslo Accords were signed, most Palestinians were in favor of a two state solution, with a small but dangerous fringe against. Israel was split virtually 50-50.
It's irrelevant what the temper was at one fixed point. Look at November 2000
Attitudes in November 2000
13. Do you support or oppose military attacks against Israeli targets at the present time?
Support 80.0
Oppose 15.1
Not sure 4.9
14. If you support military attacks, what should be the target of these attacks?
11.7 Support only against military targets
03.0 support only against settlers
33.1 against both military & settlers
00.4 against civilians in the 1948 proper
62.3 against all Israelis regardless
What does this tell you? That bloodthirstiness was more justified later?
8973. Andonly - 4/23/2002 4:44:02 PM
I neither know no care what "the Israeli government and its American apologists" have said to "smear" the man. Larsen has spoken for himself often enough, and one can read his words for oneself readily enough, that there is no question that a rebuke of him at this point is justified.
8974. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 4:45:14 PM
In short, you can be the sort of person who believes that barbarity can be negotiated with (i.e., today's poll says that Palestinains are for a two-state solution, but tomorrow's poll will show that 80% favor killing Israelis, anywhere, anyhow, so let's deal today, when the polls are favorable, and thenh we'll have a state wherein we can express our 80% urge to kill Israelis anywhere, anyhow)
or not.
8975. Andonly - 4/23/2002 4:46:04 PM
Along with a rebuke of Mary "The Israelis Shot at Me" Robinson.
8976. Andonly - 4/23/2002 4:48:25 PM
Wombat, please produce convincing evidence of your claim that "After the Oslo Accords were signed, most Palestinians were in favor of a two state solution, with a small but dangerous fringe against. Israel was split virtually 50-50."
8977. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 4:49:36 PM
As for the claim that Sharon is the thrust of Israeli action 8978. Wombat - 4/23/2002 5:04:08 PM JC: 8979. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 5:07:20 PM Wombat 8980. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 5:17:50 PM Wombat 8981. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 5:58:38 PM The heart of the Israeli-Palestinian debate is cultural, not some paltry foolishness about negotiations, land, borders, and one or two states. 8982. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 5:59:45 PM I had a girlfriend who had a jealous nature. I told her that if I was going to be treated as if I were cheating, it hardly seemd fair that I was denied the sex with other women. It didn't work out. 8983. sakonige - 4/23/2002 8:33:40 PM Equivalence would be allowing the Palestinians the same weaponry the Israelis are allowed, allowing them weapons other than bodies and homemade bombs. 8984. Jenerator - 4/23/2002 8:37:46 PM Sakonige, 8985. sakonige - 4/23/2002 9:01:34 PM Get a grip, Jenerator. 8986. betty - 4/23/2002 9:49:44 PM Jen, 8987. Andonly - 4/23/2002 10:09:59 PM What Wombat is correct about is that the right is now running Israel with the center's consent. 8988. Andonly - 4/23/2002 10:12:24 PM "I don't know Sak's opinion on Jews, though I have seen some harsh words for Israelis and Zionists. Once again, don't mistake anti-zionism for anti-semitism." 8989. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 10:18:39 PM Wombat: 8990. betty - 4/23/2002 10:21:27 PM And, 8991. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 10:29:55 PM Our Rustler Pike of the Hairy Back and No Cunnilingus says Sharon is sure to be reelected 8992. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 10:38:18 PM Ando: 8993. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 10:39:51 PM Millennial run coming up. 8994. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 10:43:03 PM You know, Sharon's saying 'no' to the US - and getting away with it -was a lot more important than many people realize. Once you unleash Israelis from the 'oh no, what will the gentiles say' mentality - we become a very dangerous, volatile substance. 8995. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:02:33 PM Don't gloat, Pike. 8996. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 11:02:33 PM 8997. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:03:34 PM That's disgusting. 8998. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 11:09:34 PM Jesus Christ. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's hairy. And joe is right. That's disgusting. Sasquatchian. 8999. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:10:01 PM Hey - talk about your honest brokers... 9000. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:10:34 PM Ahhhh... 9001. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:11:11 PM ...yes! 9002. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 11:11:34 PM What is this? Like Italian Americans (I'm treating you as an Italian, too, Ceasar) don't have body hair? You think we don't get the Sopranos here? Or even Who's the Boss reruns? 9003. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 11:13:05 PM Andonly 9004. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:13:40 PM I'm treating you as an Italian, too, Ceasar 9005. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 11:14:57 PM Joe: 9006. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 11:15:34 PM Joe: 9007. Julius Caesar - 4/23/2002 11:16:45 PM Some body hair may have bedeviled my family back in the day, but I've evolved to a higher physical state. I'm pristine. 9008. RustlerPike - 4/23/2002 11:19:21 PM I'm rowing my slave ship to work. Same desk, same PC, different mindset. Hopefully. 9009. joezan - 4/23/2002 11:22:04 PM OH.....Ceasar...Rome...Italian. 9010. robertjayb - 4/23/2002 11:57:19 PM Thomas Friedman says think... 9011. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:01:33 AM Pike- 9012. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:09:52 AM Do the Irish demand London as their capital? Have they been firing automatic gunfire and lobbing mortars into English neighborhoods of London from Irish neighborhoods? 9013. sakonige - 4/24/2002 12:20:50 AM Sakonige is an avowed antisemite, Betty, and has been for years. 9014. sakonige - 4/24/2002 12:22:50 AM betty, 9015. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:25:01 AM I was listening to the radio the other day, and his guests were (INSERT INDISTINGUISHABLE JEWISH NAME), from Irgun, and their attorney, Mahmood Aziz. No, that's not a joke. Would that it were. Mahmood Aziz, the attorney for Irgun. Check that handle again:Mahmood Aziz.< 9016. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:50:36 AM A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go: 9017. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:52:25 AM Okay, so the Adjacent Arab-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially with the offer of Uganda. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Arab-Haters in the region want: Palestine. They also want a big pile of dead Arabs, of course--that's where the real fun is--but mostly they want Palesine. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Palestine--or "The Islamist Entity" as their textbooks call it--for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Jew run countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Jewish West. Unless I'm missing something, the Jews haven't given anything to the world since the Ten Comandments, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that 9018. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:53:35 AM I also apologize for the length of the post, the continuity error and the anachronism of talking of a green room when the medium should have been radio. 9019. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:54:41 AM toys dadgummit! 9020. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:55:41 AM !!!!! 9021. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:56:36 AM Toys, #$@%*! 9022. jonesatlaw - 4/24/2002 12:57:35 AM Help Mr Wizard!!!!!! 9023. RustlerPike - 4/24/2002 6:53:47 AM Jones: 9024. Property of Jesus - 4/24/2002 8:51:53 AM Amazing interview between Fox News reporter and Lebanese ambassador to the U.S. 9025. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 10:00:02 AM Jones 9026. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 10:10:13 AM 9027. Andonly - 4/24/2002 10:47:14 AM "or perhaps it's a refinement...I don't really know, i don't really care...the post Jen was alluding to addressed Zionism/Israeli state specifically...I won't stand for any confusion of anti-zionism and anti-semitism." 9028. Andonly - 4/24/2002 11:02:52 AM Oh, and I see now that after years of posting pure antisemitic fecal matter dressed up as language, Sakonige is claiming that it is a "lie" that she's antisemitic! 9029. sakonige - 4/24/2002 11:04:25 AM Excuse me, Andonly, but I can speak for myself. 9030. Andonly - 4/24/2002 11:05:24 AM "Though Unless I'm missing something, the Jews haven't given anything to the world since the Ten Comandments, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that is pretty funny." 9031. mgleason - 4/24/2002 11:08:52 AM This just in: The Saudis attempt to win the hearts and minds of American couch potatoes. 9032. Wombat - 4/24/2002 11:26:59 AM I agree with Andonly on what Sharon should do, it is what the Israelis have been doing since Oslo, namely dealing from strength. There is no indication that Sharon has any intention of offering the Palestinians a carrot to go with the stick. 9033. Andonly - 4/24/2002 11:44:47 AM Sakonige, you are an antisemite. You have been for years, and nothing has changed. 9034. PelleNilsson - 4/24/2002 11:46:09 AM Of course Sakonige is an anti-Semite. That has been known for years. 9035. sakonige - 4/24/2002 11:59:41 AM 9036. sakonige - 4/24/2002 12:03:02 PM 9037. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:03:35 PM Asher Arian 9038. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:05:06 PM 9039. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:06:21 PM Table 5 (cont.). Support for Discussing... in Talks with Palestinians 9040. sakonige - 4/24/2002 12:07:33 PM Mubarak denounces Israel 9041. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:08:02 PM Table 5 (cont.). Support for Discussing... in Talks with Palestinians 9042. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:14:03 PM Asher Arian 9043. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:16:41 PM Table 6. (Support for) Territories to be Returned in the Permanent Agreement 9044. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:19:17 PM Table 6. (Support for) Territories to be Returned in the Permanent Agreement 9045. Wombat - 4/24/2002 12:22:03 PM Table 6. (Support for) Territories to be Returned in the Permanent Agreement 9046. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 12:41:53 PM Wombat 9047. Andonly - 4/24/2002 12:57:18 PM Wombat, the data look impressive at first blush, but I see no reproduction of polling questions as they were asked and no information on who was polled (does the sample include settlers, IOW), how the samples were obtained, or the sample sizes. 9048. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 1:01:46 PM 9049. Wombat - 4/24/2002 1:01:51 PM According to the JMCC Public Opinion Poll No. 20 On Palestinian Attitudes Towards Current Issues May 1997, 23.6% of those sampled supported suicide attacks on Israel. What facts do you think may have accounted for the huge upswing? Mightn't the somewhat less than enthusiastic support on the part of Israel for the minimalist concessions necessary to move the flawed Oslo accords forward be a factor? 9050. Wombat - 4/24/2002 1:08:52 PM These and other JMCC polls showed levels of over 70% in support (strong or lukewarm) for the Oslo Accords and negotiating with Israel. Support for Hamas and Islamic Jihad ranged between 10-15%. 9051. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 1:10:05 PM Wombat 9052. Wombat - 4/24/2002 1:16:02 PM JC: 9053. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 1:19:50 PM Demonstrate for me the volatility of Israeli attitudes on targeting Palestinains for murder. I haven't seen that polled. 9054. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 1:27:38 PM Once again, the Palestinians want to murder israelis. 9055. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 1:35:04 PM I linked an article today showing how the IDF takes casualties to avoid Palestinaian civilians deaths. 9056. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 1:43:30 PM Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Feisal University, a prime example of Arab culture: 9057. Andonly - 4/24/2002 2:03:50 PM Wombat, your selective reporting's significance is rather belied in the overview of Asher Arian's study for 1999 in the link JC provided above. Scroll down the PDF, beginning page 8. 9058. PelleNilsson - 4/24/2002 2:26:41 PM Julius 9059. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 2:33:59 PM Pelle 9060. PelleNilsson - 4/24/2002 2:50:22 PM I referred to your cite in Message # 9056. You know that of course but you are desperately trying to muddle the waters by introducing extraneous subjects. 9061. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 2:52:31 PM On the Clash of Equivalency, Political Correctness and the Muslim/Arab World 9062. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 2:56:34 PM Pelle 9063. Wombat - 4/24/2002 2:57:26 PM Andonly: 9064. Property of Jesus - 4/24/2002 3:03:07 PM Oy Vey! 9065. PelleNilsson - 4/24/2002 3:17:56 PM Julius 9066. Wombat - 4/24/2002 3:20:31 PM I would also like to touch on the "moral equivalency" that Sharon, Netanyahu, and their American apologists apply to Israel's war against Palestinian terrorism, and that of the United States against Al Quaeda. They would have have us believe that they are tightly bound together, and that the Israelis are fighting against the Palestinians the same way as the US did in Afghanistan against Al Quaeda. 9067. CalGal - 4/24/2002 3:20:42 PM That's a great article. One of the books I got for my birthday was Bernard Lewis' Islam and the West, which supposedly has a devastating critique of Said's Orientalism. I'm looking forward to reading it. 9068. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 3:40:05 PM Pelle 9069. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 3:41:44 PM And the postcript, from The Standard -- 9070. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 3:42:08 PM This is a world where 7 out of 10 Palestinians support suicide bombings, the Saudi ambassador to Great Britain pens sonnets to the practice, and only 2 out of 10 Arabs believe other Arabs rammed planes into the WTC. 9071. CalGal - 4/24/2002 3:47:44 PM I think there are two different problems. The Palestinians do have a legitimate grievance. And the majority of Palestinians, like the majority of Muslims, aren't altogether rational human beings, as we use the term in the West. 9072. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 3:53:38 PM Wombat 9073. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 4:09:39 PM Cal 9074. CalGal - 4/24/2002 4:14:39 PM Well, I'd take it even further and say it's possible that they'd have their land by now if they had been rational. I wish Charlie Rose had transcripts, but Friedman made this point. That when you've been striving for freedom for 50 years, longer than any other country, it's probably not due to external factors. 9075. Wombat - 4/24/2002 4:18:15 PM JC: 9076. ronski - 4/24/2002 4:24:55 PM Cal, 9077. CalGal - 4/24/2002 4:27:51 PM Ronski, 9078. Wombat - 4/24/2002 4:27:55 PM Ronski: 9079. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 4:35:18 PM Wombat 9080. Andonly - 4/24/2002 4:37:40 PM "Did I ever say that most Israelis opposed the Oslo Accords and negotiating with the Palestinians? What I did say, and is borne out in the data I was asked to supply was that Israel was split on the two state solution." 9081. Andonly - 4/24/2002 4:37:56 PM W to JC: "After the Oslo Accords were signed, most Palestinians were in favor of a two state solution, with a small but dangerous fringe against. Israel was split virtually 50-50." 9082. Andonly - 4/24/2002 4:53:18 PM "By contrast, however careful the Israelis claim to be, every civilian killed by them is one killed not so that an oppressor is driven out, but so that an oppressor can remain, at least in the eyes of the Palestinians." 9083. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 4:58:04 PM The broader point is that those who argue moral or cultural equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians/the Arab world are either willfully ignorant, maliciously anti-Israel, or, more likely, so blinkered by mushy sympathy for the downtrodden that they overlook the downtrodden's less savory characteristics, or even the fitness of the downtrodden for the aims they seek. 9084. CalGal - 4/24/2002 5:01:19 PM Also, for all that people bitch about the ruthless Arab dictators, most of them are enforcing more moderate regimes than the ones that would be in place if the populace got their wishes. 9085. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 5:05:33 PM Yet, these whimpering pustules - who would house mutts before Palestinians -are elevated to statesmen in the great gaseous practices of Western guilt, love of the underdog, and fear of choosing sides. 9086. CalGal - 4/24/2002 5:08:29 PM Actually, much of the West has chosen sides--and chosen Palestinians, for some bizarre reason. Having possibly to do with the millions of pissed off Arab immigrants in their midst. 9087. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 5:11:49 PM The asinine approach of the Kofi Annan wing of Europe has made this administration's public relations effort surprisingly easy. I'm not surprised by overwhelming Jewish support for the president, even though his leadership has been at best nervous and at worst confusing. 9088. ronski - 4/24/2002 5:13:48 PM I suspect that Bush wishes to convene a meeting with Israelis, Palestinians and "moderate" Arabs to create a two-state solution. The only question is whether he has the guts to threaten Israel with a loss of aid, and to take on Democrat supporters of Israel and rightwingers in his own party who would stand in the way of such toughness, in order to make it possible for such a meeting to succeed. 9089. ronski - 4/24/2002 5:16:35 PM The reason I suspect Bush wants to do this is to free the administration to pursue Saddam, one of Bush's main goals in this term. 9090. CalGal - 4/24/2002 5:17:52 PM I think he should threaten Israel with loss of aid. Much as I think they have the right to protect themselves, they have to do it with their own money if they want to ignore the US. 9091. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 5:20:58 PM ronski 9092. Julius Caesar - 4/24/2002 5:23:17 PM Now, taking off my Israel hat . . . the last thing the U.S. wants is advantage in the region. What we do want is absolute peace, which is unattainable. 9093. CalGal - 4/24/2002 5:23:58 PM Given the circumstances, how long until that state is supplied with modern arms by the milquetoast and/or conspiracy-minded Arab nations? How long until Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others get maximum footing in that state by which to further massacre Jews? 9094. ronski - 4/24/2002 5:25:07 PM I completely agree Israel has the right to protect itself, and has acted with some restraint, generally trying to keep civilian Palestinian casualties to a minimum. 9095. ronski - 4/24/2002 5:27:52 PM JC, 9096. CalGal - 4/24/2002 5:31:02 PM One nice thing about UN troops is that once they noticed how many of them were dying due to the Palestinians, they might change their tune. 9097. ronski - 4/24/2002 5:31:26 PM I agree with Cal. A state it can squash is better than trying to pacify Bantustans. 9098. Andonly - 4/24/2002 5:41:14 PM I will vote for whoever runs against Bush in the next presidential election, but I have to say I have this weird premonition that either Bush or Cheney won't be alive by then. (There's nothing rational or especially believable about this, I just throw it out there for no reason.) 9099. CalGal - 4/24/2002 5:44:23 PM But it seems to me that moving to the right is a luxury they have only with our dollars? 9100. Andonly - 4/24/2002 5:57:26 PM "But it seems to me that moving to the right is a luxury they have only with our dollars?" 9101. CalGal - 4/24/2002 6:01:51 PM Once the US is gone, Israelis have only themselves and God to depend on. 9102. CalGal - 4/24/2002 6:05:06 PM I realized I didn't answer directly: 9103. ronski - 4/24/2002 6:06:11 PM We would never cut aid to Israel while suicide bombings were taking place. We will wait for a reasonable amount of time to pass after the Israelis have pacified the place (for the short run). Then we will make our demands, is my guess. 9104. Andonly - 4/24/2002 7:22:34 PM In any case, the US will not threaten to curtail all aid to Israel, only a portion. 9105. Andonly - 4/24/2002 7:25:42 PM Apropos of nothing relevant to this thread, anyone who hasn't ever heard of the Nashville band Lamb Chop ought to look into them. 9106. wonkers2 - 4/24/2002 8:26:08 PM Here's a book for Andonly,RP, et al: Revenge: A Story of Hope by Laura Blumenfeld. 9107. wonkers2 - 4/24/2002 8:44:40 PM Perhaps Andonly IS Laura Blumenfeld?? 9108. Andonly - 4/24/2002 9:23:21 PM I'm well aware of Laura Blumenfeld's interesting story, wonkers, it just doesn't matter in the mucky nexus of international relations. 9109. robertjayb - 4/24/2002 10:06:31 PM Trouble at the Ranch over Saudi Relations... 9110. Andonly - 4/24/2002 10:32:33 PM Bush should call his bluff, throw Abdullah a little tiny bone to save his face, or demand something really major in return for stomping on Sharon. (I guess you all know what.) 9111. joezan - 4/24/2002 10:35:04 PM ...a person familiar with the Saudi's thinking said today. 9112. wonkers2 - 4/24/2002 10:59:02 PM Andonly, well I beg to differ. It would be well if people on both sides began to question the usefullness and morality of the tradition of revenge. 9113. RustlerPike - 4/24/2002 11:28:23 PM This idea of giving them a state so we can (supposedly) 'crush' it later has been around for ages. We gave them a mini-state, Arafat went around calling himself President, they are represented in the UN, they have an army - and we see how difficult it is to 'crush' this mini-state, or quasi-state. 9114. RustlerPike - 4/24/2002 11:30:44 PM And my guess is you'll start hearing this idea floated more and more openly by your Kristols and Safires, starting right about tomorrow. 9115. RustlerPike - 4/24/2002 11:34:37 PM CalGal: 9116. RustlerPike - 4/24/2002 11:36:43 PM Psocko: 9117. RustlerPike - 4/24/2002 11:42:17 PM You guys may be relying too heavily on polls conducted within a dictatorship. People in a dictatorship are afraid to think independently. I know this - I live in Katzir. 9118. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:43:55 AM RP - 9119. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 1:26:42 AM But it seems to me that moving to the right is a luxury they have only with our dollars? 9120. concerned - 4/25/2002 1:34:36 AM Myths of the Intifada 9121. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 8:30:27 AM From that Times article, quite sobering if truly an indication of the Saudi intent. 9122. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 8:33:34 AM My next pamphlet will be addressed in part to the Arabs of Wadi Ara. 9123. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 8:34:49 AM How much of American wealth is in Jewish hands? How much is generated by Jews? I know that's an infuriating question, but there it is. 9124. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 8:39:41 AM I saw an interview with a Southern Baptist honcho on TV yesterday, an honest fundamentalist. 9125. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 8:40:55 AM The unlikeliness of the scenario has not prevented, it seems, some fundie cowherder in the Midwest from assiduously genetically engineering a string of suitable heifers. 9126. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 8:48:37 AM We need a cow, not a heifer, marj. A 'red' cow. 9127. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 8:51:19 AM Whatever, Spike. The Yank fundies are on the case this very minute, you just stick to readying yourself to accepting Christ as your Savior. 9128. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 8:53:49 AM marj: 9129. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:01:40 AM Spike, I submit that you have had a surfeit of contact with that tube of hand-cream, and at this point anyone even pretending to be a woman would provoke such overheatedness from you. 9130. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:12:29 AM Now, to slightly weightier matters than Spike's meat: 9131. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:24:42 AM Now, I happen to not believe in this conspiracy. Of course, the truism about journalism is that a "free" press is for those who own it. The NYTimes, which is owned by Jews, is just totally and sometimes almost criminally unreliable on the Middle East and Israel is simply a weak spot in its already shoddy foreign coverage. It sucks, it makes no attempt at non-partisanship, that's just the way it is. But there are enough other newspapers and media outlets, many also owned by Jews, which in my opinion are much more balanced - so the conspiracy only exists if you want to believe in it. Thus, in my mind it is an indication of potential anti-semitism and most probably the tip of an ideological iceberg which is made up of far more sinister beliefs. 9132. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:27:52 AM Spike, I submit that you have had a surfeit of contact with that tube of hand-cream, and at this point anyone even pretending to be a woman would provoke such overheatedness from you. 9133. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:28:09 AM marj. 9134. Wombat - 4/25/2002 9:29:07 AM The irony of this whole recrimination-fest is that almost all of us are in agreement over what should happen. I would have no problem justifying and defending everything Israel has done--and then some--if I was convinced that at the end of it there would be a Palestinian state, run by Arafat or not. 9135. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:29:15 AM To the conspiracy theory for one more minute, I wager that a good proportion of Israelis also believe it. 9136. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:32:24 AM Wombat, I find myself in total agreement with your 9134, every word of it though particularly what you underline in your last para. 9137. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:36:35 AM marj: 9138. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:40:44 AM You know, it obviously does not matter to the Sharonists (and perhaps it shouldn't) but there was and is a great deal of potential good will out there for Israel that is being destroyed quite casually and which may not ever regenerate itself. 9139. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 9:48:35 AM Spike, yes I think Fisk points to the same phenomenon but more guardedly. I'd say that his accounts of who he met and what he heard are totally believable. 9140. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:52:59 AM Marj: 9141. Wombat - 4/25/2002 9:56:35 AM Rustler: 9142. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 10:00:17 AM marj, 9143. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 10:01:32 AM Wom, no, I didn't mean that this Larry guy was writing for the NYT. I was talking about jewrnalists in jewneral. 9144. Property of Jesus - 4/25/2002 10:03:08 AM 9145. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 10:10:14 AM Thanks for the thoughtful and honest response, Spike. 9146. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 10:14:39 AM Spike, 9147. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 10:26:31 AM When it come to Israel, therefore, my primary concern is for Americans -especially Americans like myself who travel abroad a great deal. Though I also think it rather obvious that American policies in the ME helped to recruit those who attacked the US literally in my neighborhood, a few hundred yards from my home. 9148. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 11:03:49 AM The United States is inextricably intertwined with Israel, leaving aside the familial ties, the cultural similarities, the democratic attitudes, and the significant Jewish presence in American society. Bush has wed Israel even closer to the United States by adopting a broad, moral mandate against "terrorism." Moreover, even more so than Taiwan, Israel is a symbol to potential and foes as to the stalwart nature of being an American "friend" in a hostile region. 9149. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:16:40 AM Today's letter to Haaretz (in the likely event they don't publish it): 9150. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 11:17:17 AM Rubbish. 9151. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:20:28 AM "I have no idea what your #9142 is meant to rebut or clear up in my comments. I very rarely resort to considerations of morality in analysis of international affairs, it generally has no part to play." 9152. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 11:27:50 AM It is not a joke. 9153. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 11:29:39 AM But in general, I don't expect morality to play a part in the way nations conduct themselves externally. You can hope for it, or be disgusted when rhetoric outstrips action, but it's quite pointless to expect it or to constantly look for it. 9154. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 11:34:53 AM Marj 9155. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 11:35:36 AM Inextricably intertwined my ass. You could have said the same with better reason about Germany and the US pre WWII or (more shakily) Russia and the US before the Cold War. The only countries inextricably intertwined with the US are probably Canada and Mexico, and that's a function of geography. 9156. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 11:38:28 AM Marj 9157. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 11:40:19 AM I'd like to point out that I've already used the term "desperate hyperbole" to characterize Caesar's frantic efforts. 9158. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 11:43:44 AM Ha ha ha ha ha ha. The sign-off of the amateur. 9159. ronski - 4/25/2002 11:47:11 AM 9160. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 11:53:08 AM Who is to do this cracking down? Obviously, Palestinian police, security forces and courts. 9161. Wombat - 4/25/2002 11:55:14 AM One could argue that it is in the "War on Terrorism" where the US and Sharon's interests diverge the most. Sharon wants the US firmly on his side in re the Palestinians, while the US wants and needs the cooperation of the Moslem countries in the region for the greater fight against terrorism--and perhaps against Iraq. It has been made very clear to the US that the Israel/Palestinian fighting is a major problem in terms of future US moves against terrorism and the "Axis of Evil." 9162. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:00:41 PM The United States may or may not need the cooperation of the Muslim world. It is best received, however, through strength, not typical State Department timidity. 9163. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:01:22 PM copperate=cooperate 9164. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:03:26 PM I thought the article nicely shows how rife with conspiracy theories the Mideast is. Not as if we didn't know that already. 9165. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:07:55 PM It is on such flimsy, wacko, ground that much of the American Right's backing for Israel is anchored. And there is terribly great potential for it to backfire or be withdrawn when you recalcitrant Jews are not seen to eagerly fulfill your part of the bargain and become Yank-style fundamentalist Christians. 9166. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:08:06 PM As for Iraq. Yes. We will go in, even if solo, for the same reason: the threat of a U.S. city being rendered uninhabitable. 9167. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:09:23 PM A settlement can't be forced until the Palestinians can negotiate with authority. Right now, they cannot, because they are engeged in terror ops themselves, and even the more moderate elements of the Authority have no control over Hams, Islamic Jihad, etc . . . 9168. zojak quafeth - 4/25/2002 12:09:31 PM or wash our hands of the place 9169. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:11:02 PM ronksi 9170. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:11:48 PM Yet in Iran, too, we should hand over the oil fields to some moderate new government, and if we have any sense, pull out. 9171. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:12:18 PM Re. 9157 - 9172. Wombat - 4/25/2002 12:13:21 PM JC: 9173. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:14:38 PM zojak is correct 9174. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:14:50 PM Many terrorists are blood-lusting psychopaths, that is absolutely true. But many are recruited into the lifestyle, so to speak, who would not otherwise end up as such. There are plenty of other outlets for their aggression. 9175. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:16:11 PM Wombat 9176. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:16:49 PM ronksi 9177. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:19:32 PM Remember I am recommending a two-pronged approach. I have approved of Israel's crushing terrorism, and the U.S. action in Afghanistan. 9178. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:23:29 PM ronski 9179. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:28:41 PM To some extent, I regard the existence of Israel as a stick in expansionist Fundamantalist Islam's eye, and worthy of support on that basis alone. If the US and the West were to abandon Israel and the UN mandates of 1948 in deference to nothing more than the random street variety of Islamic terror, then that would constitute a seriously self abnegating move on the part of the West in return for, not only no compensation on the part of the Islamic world, but an incitement to emphasize more assiduously its most extreme and violent hegemonistic tendencies in other parts of the world. 9180. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 12:28:47 PM I am unaware of any historical precedent where giving in did not energize aggressive elements. 9181. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:30:29 PM Re. 9179 - 9182. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:32:14 PM What Might Islamic Jihad do if we Cut and Run 9183. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 12:33:38 PM It occurs to me that the arguments being made here are very similar to ones that could have been made (and in fact were made by some) after the end of WWII by the colonial powers. A lot of the same horseshit about "ealing from strength" and "encouraging extremists" and, ludicrously, "self-abnegation". 9184. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:34:56 PM What are we to make of the fact that marjoribanks refuses to acknowledge the blatantly apparent fact that the huge majority of Pallies want nothing less than the destruction of the state of Israel? 9185. concerned - 4/25/2002 12:36:29 PM Why is dealing with the repercussions of the peace deal that Arafat rejected on December 13, 2000 so radioactive to marjoribanks? 9186. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:38:50 PM Marj 9187. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 12:42:06 PM I have previously notified the cartoonishly stupid right wing lunatic that I will not stoop to read or respond to his posts. 9188. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:44:18 PM I'm not advising cutting and running. I am advising forcing a two-state settlement. 9189. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 12:45:24 PM 95% of black South Africans supported mailbombs, seeing them as a blow against Apartheid. 9190. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:51:12 PM marj 9191. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:53:22 PM marj 9192. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:56:12 PM As marj suggests, if faced with the necessity of building a genuine state, I suspect support for destroying Israel will erode substantially. 9193. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 12:57:42 PM I must upgrade the characterization of sexlawyer's spittle from desperate hyperbole to frantic and unhinged hyperbole 9194. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:58:36 PM Ronski 9195. ronski - 4/25/2002 12:59:07 PM At least Vietnam yielded us a musical. 9196. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 12:59:46 PM marj 9197. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 1:00:31 PM ronski 9198. Julius Caesar - 4/25/2002 1:02:58 PM I have to run in a bit, but marj, while I'm gone, say something so stupid that even you are chastened (like you did in the aftermath of 9/11). You've come close today, but you haven't given me any real whoppers like "the streets will run red with blood" when we land in Pakistan. 9199. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 1:10:31 PM I never said the streets would run red with blood in Pakistan, I said that it was a preferred outcome for me to see a bloody purge of the extremist 'global jihadi' element in Pakistani polity and society. The extreme necessity for that has been somewhat obviated by Musharraf's careful moves. 9200. marjoribanks - 4/25/2002 1:14:46 PM Sexlawyer's comments here, besides being characterized accurately as above, have the sourish whiff of Churchill's post WWII pronouncements on Empire. 9201. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:29:15 PM There's a report of an explosion at a building on West 19th Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenues in Manhattan. Part of the building, Apex Technical Institute, has collapsed. Blocks around the area have been closed. 9202. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:31:36 PM things.. 9203. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:33:28 PM The following is inexcusably long, but a very fine rant which deserves circulation here... 9204. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:38:31 PM On Jew-hatred in Europe 9205. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:41:00 PM I find it shameful that in France, the France of Liberty-Equality-Fraternity, they burn synagogues, terrorize Jews, profane their cemeteries. I find it shameful that the youth of Holland and Germany and Denmark flaunt the kaffiah just as Mussolini’s avant garde used to flaunt the club and the fascist badge. I find it shameful that in nearly all the universities of Europe Palestinian students sponsor and nurture anti-semitism. That in Sweden they asked that the Nobel Peace Prize given to Shimon Peres in 1994 be taken back and conferred on the dove with the olive branch in his mouth, that is on Arafat. I find it shameful that the distinguished members of the Committee, a Committee that (it would appear) rewards political color rather than merit, should take this request into consideration and even respond to it. In hell the Nobel Prize honors he who does not receive it. 9206. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:43:24 PM I find it shameful that the press does the same, that it is indignant because Israeli tanks surround the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, that it is not indignant because inside that same church two hundred Palestinian terrorists well armed with machine guns and munitions and explosives (among them are various leaders of Hamas and Al-Aqsa) are not unwelcome guests of the monks (who then accept bottles of mineral water and jars of honey from the soldiers of those tanks). I find it shameful that, in giving the number of Israelis killed since the beginning of the Second Intifada (four hundred twelve), a noted daily newspaper found it appropriate to underline in capital letters that more people are killed in their traffic accidents. (Six hundred a year). 9207. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:43:58 PM I find it shameful that the Roman Observer, the newspaper of the Pope--a Pope who not long ago left in the Wailing Wall a letter of apology for the Jews--accuses of extermination a people who were exterminated in the millions by Christians. By Europeans. I find it shameful that this newspaper denies to the survivors of that people (survivors who still have numbers tattooed on their arms) the right to react, to defend themselves, to not be exterminated again. I find it shameful that in the name of Jesus Christ (a Jew without whom they would all be unemployed), the priests of our parishes or Social Centers or whatever they are flirt with the assassins of those in Jerusalem who cannot go to eat a pizza or buy some eggs without being blown up. I find it shameful that they are on the side of the very ones who inaugurated terrorism, killing us on airplanes, in airports, at the Olympics, and who today entertain themselves by killing western journalists. By shooting them, abducting them, cutting their throats, decapitating them. (There’s someone in Italy who, since the appearance of Anger and Pride, would like to do the same to me. Citing verses of the Koran he exorts his “brothers” in the mosques and the Islamic Community to chastise me in the name of Allah. To kill me. Or rather to die with me. Since he’s someone who speaks English well, I’ll respond to him in English: “Fuck you.”) 9208. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:45:52 PM I find it shameful that almost all of the left, the left that twenty years ago permitted one of its union processionals to deposit a coffin (as a mafioso warning) in front of the synagogue of Rome, forgets the contribution made by the Jews to the fight against fascism. Made by Carlo and Nello Rossini, for example, by Leone Ginzburg, by Umberto Terracini, by Leo Valiani, by Emilio Sereni, by women like my friend Anna Maria Enriques Agnoletti who was shot at Florence on June 12, 1944, by seventy-five of the three-hundred-thirty-five people killed at the Fosse Ardeatine, by the infinite others killed under torture or in combat or before firing squads. (The companions, the teachers, of my infancy and my youth.) 9209. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:46:34 PM I find it shameful that in part through the fault of the left--or rather, primarily through the fault of the left (think of the left that inaugurates its congresses applauding the representative of the PLO, leader in Italy of the Palestinians who want the destruction of Israel)--Jews in Italian cities are once again afraid. And in French cities and Dutch cities and Danish cities and German cities, it is the same. I find it shameful that Jews tremble at the passage of the scoundrels dressed like suicide bombers just as they trembled during Krystallnacht, the night in which Hitler gave free rein to the Hunt of the Jews. I find it shameful that in obedience to the stupid, vile, dishonest, and for them extremely advantageous fashion of Political Correctness the usual opportunists--or better the usual parasites--exploit the word Peace. That in the name of the word Peace, by now more debauched than the words Love and Humanity, they absolve one side alone of its hate and bestiality. That in the name of a pacifism (read conformism) delegated to the singing crickets and buffoons who used to lick Pol Pot’s feet they incite people who are confused or ingenuous or intimidated. Trick them, corrupt them, carry them back a half century to the time of the yellow star on the coat. These charlatans who care about the Palestinans as much as I care about the charlatans. That is not at all. 9210. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:48:44 PM I find it shameful that many Italians and many Europeans have chosen as their standard-bearer the gentleman (or so it is polite to say) Arafat. This nonentity who thanks to the money of the Saudi Royal Family plays the Mussolini ad perpetuum and in his megalomania believes he will pass into History as the George Washington of Palestine. This ungrammatical wretch who when I interviewed him was unable even to put together a complete sentence, to make articulate conversation. So that to put it all together, write it, publish it, cost me a tremendous effort and I concluded that compared to him even Ghaddafi sounds like Leonardo da Vinci. This false warrior who always goes around in uniform like Pinochet, never putting on civilian garb, and yet despite this has never participated in a battle. War is something he sends, has always sent, others to do for him. That is, the poor souls who believe in him. This pompous incompetent who playing the part of Head of State caused the failure of the Camp David negotiations, Clinton’s mediation. No-no-I-want-Jerusalem-all-to-myself. This eternal liar who has a flash of sincerity only when (in private) he denies Israel’s right to exist, and who as I say in my book contradicts himself every five minutes. He always plays the double-cross, lies even if you ask him what time it is, so that you can never trust him. Never! With him you will always wind up systematically betrayed. 9211. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:49:36 PM This eternal terrorist who knows only how to be a terrorist (while keeping himself safe) and who during the Seventies, that is when I interviewed him, even trained the terrorists of Baader-Meinhof. With them, children ten years of age. Poor children. (Now he trains them to become suicide bombers. A hundred baby suicide bombers are in the works: a hundred!). This weathercock who keeps his wife at Paris, served and revered like a queen, and keeps his people down in the shit. He takes them out of the shit only to send them to die, to kill and to die, like the eighteen year old girls who in order to earn equality with men have to strap on explosives and disintegrate with their victims. And yet many Italians love him, yes. Just like they loved Mussolini. And many other Europeans do the same. 9212. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:50:01 PM I see it, yes, and I say the following. I have never been tender with the tragic and Shakespearean figure Sharon. (“I know you’ve come to add another scalp to your necklace,” he murmured almost with sadness when I went to interview him in 1982.) I have often had disagreements with the Israelis, ugly ones, and in the past I have defended the Palestinians a great deal. Maybe more than they deserved. But I stand with Israel, I stand with the Jews. I stand just as I stood as a young girl during the time when I fought with them, and when the Anna Marias were shot. I defend their right to exist, to defend themselves, to not let themselves be exterminated a second time. And disgusted by the antisemitism of many Italians, of many Europeans, I am ashamed of this shame that dishonors my Country and Europe. At best, it is not a community of States, but a pit of Pontius Pilates. And even if all the inhabitants of this planet were to think otherwise, I would continue to think so. 9213. Andonly - 4/25/2002 1:50:28 PM (end) 9214. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2002 1:53:10 PM Have you noted how Julius chooses to deal with his critics? 9215. betty - 4/25/2002 2:13:47 PM Andonly 9216. concerned - 4/25/2002 2:41:02 PM Re. 9187 - 9217. concerned - 4/25/2002 2:58:33 PM Speaking of US terrorist attacks, the primary perps are envirowhackos. 9218. bubbaette - 4/25/2002 3:03:09 PM Environmentalists killed those 3000 people in new york? I had no idea! 9219. concerned - 4/25/2002 3:11:44 PM bubbaette- 9220. betty - 4/25/2002 3:12:34 PM concerned want a cracker? 9221. CalGal - 4/25/2002 3:17:11 PM And--I love that piece; I read it first last week. Passionate outrage. Your letter was good, btw. 9222. betty - 4/25/2002 3:20:49 PM concerned, 9223. concerned - 4/25/2002 3:22:46 PM Well then, Betty. You agree that bubbaette was out of line for attempting to take me to task for only doing what you did first? 9224. Andonly - 4/25/2002 3:28:41 PM "didn't you intended to write: Sure hope somebody's dead and terrorists are responsible, things will heat up fast..." 9225. betty - 4/25/2002 3:46:08 PM And, 9226. Andonly - 4/25/2002 4:47:59 PM "2 1/2 inch intellect...what exactly does that mean?" 9227. Andonly - 4/25/2002 4:51:40 PM Point is, it hardly matters in the short run who commits the act, now that terror matters. And everything is happening very quicly these days, very much i the short run. 9228. mgleason - 4/25/2002 4:52:25 PM Perhaps I read too much SF, but this situation is right out of Dune. 9229. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 5:03:40 PM The Bene Gesserit are on the move. But who is the Kwisatz Haderach? 9230. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 5:05:43 PM Excellent letter by Fallacci (sp.?). I'm surprised: I remember her butchering Sharon in an interview during or after the siege of Beirut. 9231. mgleason - 4/25/2002 5:08:56 PM But who is the Kwisatz Haderach? 9232. Andonly - 4/25/2002 5:15:05 PM "this situation is right out of Dune." 9233. Andonly - 4/25/2002 5:17:49 PM Concerned: "To some extent, I regard the existence of Israel as a stick in expansionist Fundamantalist Islam's eye, and worthy of support on that basis alone." 9234. concerned - 4/25/2002 6:54:42 PM Well, you know what 'they' say: "First, the Saturday People and then the Sunday People." 9235. concerned - 4/25/2002 6:55:35 PM And, at this point, nothing would suit me better than to have Islam strangle on Israel. 9236. Andonly - 4/25/2002 7:01:01 PM Wow. The INS is to be abolished! 9237. concerned - 4/25/2002 7:01:07 PM I'm talking about the Islam which doesn't allow universal human rights or freedom of religious belief such as the right to convert from Islam, to, say, whatever belief one desires and evangelize in Mecca if one wishes. 9238. concerned - 4/25/2002 7:02:22 PM The day when I see Billy Bible Thumper proselytizing in Peshawar without being harassed is when I believe Islam is an 'ok' religion. 9239. concerned - 4/25/2002 7:12:20 PM Re. 9236 - 9240. betty - 4/25/2002 8:02:37 PM RP, 9241. betty - 4/25/2002 8:56:04 PM Andonly, 9242. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:35:41 PM Betty: 9243. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:44:16 PM mgleason: 9244. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:54:43 PM Concerned: 9245. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 9:56:40 PM mg: 9246. sakonige - 4/25/2002 10:09:04 PM 9247. sakonige - 4/25/2002 10:09:32 PM thread 9248. Property of Jesus - 4/25/2002 10:14:38 PM Absolutely. Mote doesn't protect peoples' privacy and laughs at those who are violated by the deviants. 9249. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 10:41:53 PM PoJ: 9250. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 10:46:22 PM The head of Na'amat, Israel's NOW, a brig. gen. (res.), is suggesting some women be called up for reserve duty to guard nursery schools. Female reaction, judging by the Ynet readers' forum, seems to be extremely unenthusiastic. 9251. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:24:26 PM Betty 2.5: "I'm sure you can find a creative way of explaining this concept of physical measurement of intelligence...does it relate to phrenology?:" 9252. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:24:48 PM "Mostly I see you as an over-educated apologist [blah, blah, blah]..." 9253. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:26:25 PM Pike: "And I'd wager my entire personal fortune that this was one of the concepts discussed in the meetings between Chaim Weitzmann and Arthur Balfour before Balfour issued his famous declaration in 1917." 9254. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:30:11 PM Wait: I forgot you have no personal fortune. 9255. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 11:32:36 PM Ando: 9256. mgleason - 4/25/2002 11:33:26 PM RP, 9257. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 11:33:52 PM But if I did have a fortune, I would wager it gladly on what I said. 9258. sakonige - 4/25/2002 11:39:39 PM The threat is real. These criminals are crazy. They will harm you if they can. 9259. sakonige - 4/25/2002 11:42:38 PM 9260. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 11:47:35 PM Sakko: 9261. Andonly - 4/25/2002 11:47:52 PM I dunno, Pike. I don't think Balfour and Weizman were especially concerned about expansionist Islamism per se. Arab power in general, in whatever form, yeah, but Islamism? Or do you mean plain old Islam, as in, the Balfour declaration was te result of an ideological confraternity of Xtians and Jews against the forces of Islam? 9262. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 11:53:13 PM I'll show you my rationale if you show me yours, Ando. 9263. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 11:55:52 PM JC: 9264. RustlerPike - 4/25/2002 11:56:37 PM It's 6:55. My kids will not be late this morning. 9265. Andonly - 4/26/2002 12:02:37 AM "But you're right: how many English-speaking people named Betty (if that's her name) are there out there?" 9266. Andonly - 4/26/2002 12:04:39 AM "I'll show you my rationale if you show me yours, Ando." 9267. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 12:41:52 AM Ando: 9268. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 12:51:25 AM Ando: 9269. Jonesatlaw - 4/26/2002 12:57:36 AM Julius, 9270. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 1:22:36 AM Israel as a nation was a thing of ancient history, and the Palestinians could make as much a claim to be the decendents of neighboring nations to that state as modern Jews could make to being Israelis. 9271. concerned - 4/26/2002 4:02:40 AM marjoribanks has not even attained a sufficient level of consciousness to ascertain that I'm a political centrist. 9272. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 4:19:48 AM Concerned: 9273. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 4:20:28 AM Women. 9274. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 4:23:40 AM ando: 9275. ronski - 4/26/2002 8:03:12 AM 9276. wonkers2 - 4/26/2002 8:38:37 AM Sharon: "As long as I'm in power there will be no discussion of removing a single settlement." 9277. betty - 4/26/2002 8:50:33 AM RP, 9278. wonkers2 - 4/26/2002 8:50:54 AM Israel's Right and Left Converge 9279. wonkers2 - 4/26/2002 9:02:33 AM Israel and the American fundies on the one hand and Saudi Arabia, Daddy Bush and the Powell internationalists on the other are causing young Georgie to lose a lot of sleep lately. Bush's dilemma was reflected in his zig zag statements toward Israel/Palestine around the Powell mission. While on the one hand, U.S. interests require Bush to take a firm hand with Israel, ordering them out of the West Bank, and leading them by the hand to the peace table, on the other hand, Bush's political interest leads him in the opposite direction, pulled by the red neck, southren fundamentalist morons, the likes of Mitch McConnell who was seen bloviating about Palestine last night on one of the talk shows. 9280. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 9:37:40 AM betty: 9281. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 9:39:45 AM Wonkers: 9282. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 9:48:23 AM Hey wonk, that's a hell of an opinion piece you linked in #9278. 9283. Andonly - 4/26/2002 9:53:50 AM "It's not any concern she may have about anthrax spores in the spices you send betty." 9284. betty - 4/26/2002 9:57:28 AM RP, 9285. Wombat - 4/26/2002 9:58:14 AM One subtext of the Balfour declaration that I have read about was that Balfour, who was anti-semitic in the genteel way that most of the British upper classes were at the time, saw the declaration as a way to encourage jews to leave Britain, or better yet, not to come to Britain at all. Of course at the time, the British were promising everything to everyone. 9286. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 9:58:19 AM From ronski's link to the Weekly (Double-?)Standard: 9287. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 10:03:05 AM betty: 9288. betty - 4/26/2002 10:04:29 AM Andonly, 9289. Julius Caesar - 4/26/2002 10:05:48 AM Pelle 9290. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 10:07:48 AM betty, cont.: 9291. wonkers2 - 4/26/2002 10:16:13 AM RP, glad you liked it. How about the NYT editorial? When is Sharon going to get his fat butt out of the faces of the Palestinians? 9292. Andonly - 4/26/2002 10:26:47 AM Betty, Message # 9284 is an exercise in infantile pouting. 9293. Andonly - 4/26/2002 10:42:47 AM Wonkers, I actually liked both of your links. The stats in the one claiming Israelis had moved toward the center were pretty impressive and not at all unblievable. But where do these come from? Newspaper polls? 9294. Jonesatlaw - 4/26/2002 11:10:48 AM RP- 9295. ronski - 4/26/2002 11:30:56 AM 9296. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 11:40:17 AM Ando: 9297. wonkers2 - 4/26/2002 11:43:58 AM Andonly, I respect you as a reasonable and honest partisan. We may not be so far apart. At least I think we both want a lasting and just peace. 9298. Andonly - 4/26/2002 12:25:51 PM "I'm not taking sides in your squabble with betty." 9299. Andonly - 4/26/2002 12:32:22 PM "As for those 'trials': you've got to be kidding." 9300. sakonige - 4/26/2002 12:54:02 PM Message # 9274 9301. Rama - 4/26/2002 1:03:02 PM I'm concerned with the defamation and police harassment that can result from casual conversations with militant pro-Semites in the US. 9302. sakonige - 4/26/2002 1:06:54 PM Message # 9301 9303. sakonige - 4/26/2002 1:12:21 PM 9304. Rama - 4/26/2002 1:16:57 PM That's not my experience. 9305. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2002 1:46:16 PM Concerning Wombats Message # 9285 9306. Andonly - 4/26/2002 1:46:55 PM Sample of a Casual Conversation on a Bus Between Sako and a Dangerous Militant Pro-Semite: 9307. Rama - 4/26/2002 1:54:42 PM Nicely put. 9308. betty - 4/26/2002 1:55:01 PM RP, 9309. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2002 2:46:24 PM This, by Friedman, is not bad: 9310. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 2:53:32 PM Toys? 9311. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 2:53:59 PM Toys? 9312. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2002 2:57:55 PM Sorry, Rustler. 9313. sakonige - 4/26/2002 4:26:50 PM Message # 9306 9314. sakonige - 4/26/2002 4:28:00 PM 9315. concerned - 4/26/2002 4:58:00 PM Many of the people my husband and I associate with on a daily basis are to the right of the likes of Jenerator and joezan. You have to be careful with assholes like that in this age of Ashcroft spys. They will hurt you if they don't like what you think of them. They believe it's ok to hurt people who don't like them. 9316. concerned - 4/26/2002 5:05:47 PM Btw, I saw a tinfoil hat this morning, extra small, with 'marjoribanks' written on it in indelible marker floating under a commode at a highway rest stop. 9317. sakonige - 4/26/2002 7:18:07 PM Message # 9315 9318. sakonige - 4/26/2002 7:24:04 PM 9319. Rama - 4/26/2002 7:26:44 PM Nobody here is laughing at Zionists. 9320. sakonige - 4/26/2002 7:29:19 PM 9321. transient1a - 4/26/2002 7:49:28 PM The Washington Post 9322. sakonige - 4/26/2002 7:58:06 PM Maybe Mussad can arrange to have them all assassinated. 9323. Rama - 4/26/2002 8:32:43 PM Well, pretty much everyone here seems to take their murderous venom pretty lightly. 9324. sakonige - 4/26/2002 8:40:46 PM Rama - 9325. Rama - 4/26/2002 8:43:10 PM I don't see how you could look at people wrong here on a website. 9326. sakonige - 4/26/2002 8:44:18 PM You must not have much imagination. 9327. sakonige - 4/26/2002 8:45:10 PM Check with Andonly. She believes I look at her wrong. 9328. RustlerPike - 4/26/2002 9:30:33 PM sakko: 9329. sakonige - 4/26/2002 10:07:52 PM 9330. Andonly - 4/27/2002 12:42:28 AM Sako is not covered with pubic hair? 9331. Andonly - 4/27/2002 12:58:41 AM Message # 9317 9332. Andonly - 4/27/2002 1:09:40 AM "I can't tell the difference between Jewish people and other Europeans unless they identify themselves as Jewish. They all look about the same to me." 9333. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 2:50:46 AM Sakko: 9334. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 2:51:39 AM Why, you're making me out to be pubic enemy number one! 9335. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 3:14:10 AM Ynet quotes Israeli sources saying the Pals have been moving dozens of old corpses into a mass grave in Jenin RC. 9336. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 3:22:02 AM Terror attack at Adora. Three killed. 9337. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 5:10:07 AM Make that five. Children shot in their beds, it seems. 9338. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 6:45:12 AM Where is fat ass Sharon? He's in charge. 9339. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 7:37:13 AM wonk: 9340. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 7:39:55 AM Hey, check this out. Press one of the two leftmost buttons and wait a couple seconds. 9341. Julius Caesar - 4/27/2002 9:53:12 AM The gunmen fired through a window into a house, killing one girl and wounding two other children. 9342. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:16:07 AM Actually, JC, the 'gunmen' entered a house, went upstairs to the bedrooms, shot the husband and killed his wife, then shot at least one of their children, in his bed. They also shot at a young woman through her window. A woman described a man, probably the father of the family mentioned above, coming out of the house and saying 'there were terrorists inside my house and they shot up everybody'. 9343. Julius Caesar - 4/27/2002 10:45:45 AM Rustler 9344. mgleason - 4/27/2002 10:52:42 AM I have changed the garden goose's outfit, Andonly. You'll never find me now, you beast. 9345. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 11:00:22 AM gleason, I keep thinking the 'Catholic Church Under Fire' thread is about the Church of the Nativity. 9346. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 11:14:31 AM I just wanted you guys to know everything is proceeding along the lines of my 2200 Plan, outlined by me four days after the WTC bombings: 9347. mgleason - 4/27/2002 11:15:43 AM Well, RP, it's hard not to feel like el ombligo del mundo* when you've been named one of the Chosen. 9348. judithathome - 4/27/2002 11:17:25 AM I do avoid talking about things like gardening projects or home improvements that are visible from the street. 9349. ronski - 4/27/2002 11:23:37 AM 9350. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 11:37:15 AM There's a place called ZOA house in Tel Aviv. We izzies often pronounce it tzoa house. Tzoa means feces. 9351. sakonige - 4/27/2002 11:53:27 AM Goodmorning, judithathome. 9352. sakonige - 4/27/2002 11:59:28 AM 9353. Rama - 4/27/2002 12:12:57 PM My husband stands to make a couple million dollars on a project with a Jewish manager. Do you think an average online Zionist would try to fuck us up if they got the chance? 9354. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 12:27:14 PM sako: 9355. Andonly - 4/27/2002 1:28:31 PM "My husband stands to make a couple million dollars on a project with a Jewish manager. Do you think an average online Zionist would try to fuck us up if they got the chance?" 9356. Andonly - 4/27/2002 1:37:06 PM "I have changed the garden goose's outfit, Andonly. You'll never find me now, you beast." 9358. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 2:43:05 PM I've deleted my own #9357 for sheer stupidity. I'm tired. 9359. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 3:06:56 PM They shot a five year old girl dead in her bed. How awful. The Mau Mau did stuff like that once or twice, I believe, to make the British colonialist farmers leave, but really, this is probably the dirtiest political terror campaign ever. Even the IRA didn't go around shooting 5 year old Protestant girls dead in their beds, did they? 9360. transient1a - 4/27/2002 5:18:05 PM Can this be disinformation? 9361. alistairConnor - 4/27/2002 5:43:06 PM Message # 9360 But it's OK, Trannie. They are America's allies. They are allowed to say stuff like that. 9362. alistairConnor - 4/27/2002 5:43:41 PM Unslant. 9363. Andonly - 4/27/2002 9:11:00 PM I have major, major problems with the US's relationship with Saudi Arabia. As with our relationship with China. But it's worse with SA because we're semi-dependent (and you Euros are far more so, Alistair) for our energy needs. I realize that no one is likely to be better than the Sauds for us to deal with, from the US's standpoint (or Europe's). It's not comforting. 9364. Andonly - 4/27/2002 9:20:21 PM Oh yeah, meant to mention for anyone in the Boston area: I got an email from Walid Phares. He's giving two small talks at Harvard and Brandeis this week, neither of which I can attend. 9365. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 9:44:24 PM What does Saudi Arabia give us? They offered to help mobilize the other Arab states to put the arm on Arafat if we would do the same with Sharon/Israel. They made what strikes me as a reasonable proposal to put out the fire in Palestine and provide a path to a lasting peace. And, if we're smart we'll take them up on it and see what they can deliver. What's your plan? Do you have something better in mind? 9366. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:02:41 PM Ando: 9367. CalGal - 4/27/2002 10:06:27 PM RP, 9368. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 10:14:34 PM Very sad. Now the Israeli's will probably kill at least two five year old girls. (I don't mean that literally.) 9369. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 10:15:07 PM delete ' 9370. CalGal - 4/27/2002 10:20:52 PM No, the Israelis already killed one of the terrorists and no doubt Europe will be bleeding for him tomorrow. 9371. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:22:57 PM Cal: 9372. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:31:34 PM Fucking amazing. 9373. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:33:00 PM It doesn't even appear under 'related stories'. 9374. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 10:33:32 PM RP, ever hear the saying that he who seeks revenge had better dig two graves, the second for himself? 9375. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:38:27 PM I'm putting out a really tough pamphlet today. One that could land me in jail. I call the Council Head a 'worm' there, and tell the Arabs living in Katzir and Harish that, when I become Council Head, I will find 'democratic' ways to make them move out. I also predict a forcible eviction of the WB&G Pals and offer the Israeli Arabs protection from the Kahanists, if they behave. 9376. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:40:10 PM Could land me in the morgue, too, actually. I keep wondering why Sandrov hasn't arranged for an Arab to kill me yet, in a way that will look like a terror attack. 9377. CalGal - 4/27/2002 10:40:30 PM 9378. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:43:19 PM RP, ever hear the saying that he who seeks revenge had better dig two graves, the second for himself? 9379. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 10:45:11 PM I was referring more to Israel's policy, not what you said. 9380. RustlerPike - 4/27/2002 10:45:33 PM CG: 9381. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 10:57:44 PM As Clinton said, "We feel your pain." Despite an occasional gentle nudge toward the peace table. 9382. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 11:19:31 PM 9383. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 11:25:10 PM 9384. wonkers2 - 4/27/2002 11:30:07 PM MORE PERSPECTIVE FROM THE U.S. 9385. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 12:01:04 AM Joe, 9386. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 12:08:05 AM RP, you have a bunch of friends in the Mote who worry about you. 9387. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 12:09:43 AM Don't screw around with the judge! I could tell you of a personal experience or two with the police and a judge. It took me a while to learn not to fuck with the guys with the guns and the guys in black robes. 9388. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 12:10:58 AM Bedtime in Detroit. Night all! Peace! 9389. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 3:19:11 AM wonk: 9390. joezan - 4/28/2002 7:58:58 AM Pike: 9391. judithathome - 4/28/2002 9:14:06 AM Maybe your ass is trying to tell you something, Joe. 9392. Julius Caesar - 4/28/2002 10:19:46 AM 9393. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 11:14:41 AM Joe: 9394. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 11:16:27 AM Actually, that is pretty funny when I try to imagine it. Spraining your ass. 9395. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 11:32:50 AM RP, can you tell us anything about the IDF refusniks who, on grounds of conscience, decline to serve in Palestine? I read recently in the Financial Times that their numbers have risen to record numbers. But the article didn't say how many there are. 9396. Property of Jesus - 4/28/2002 11:34:10 AM FREED NATIVITY PRIEST: PAL GUNMEN DEFILING OUR CHURCH! 9397. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 11:47:57 AM Where is Israel's plan for peace? 9398. robertjayb - 4/28/2002 1:13:40 PM Israelis to UN: Piss Off! 9399. ronski - 4/28/2002 2:35:01 PM Israel is right not to go along with this. Without terrorism experts, it is unlikely the panel will appreciate the scope of what the Jenin terrorists and gunmen did: hid among civilians (against Geneva Conventions), boobytrapped everything (inlcuding the lower floors of buildings leaving civilians to die on the upper floors when the mines and grenades exploded), prevented civilians from leaving the area so as to maximize civilian deaths (forced martyrdom), spread gasoline on the streets to enhance the destruction, and so on. 9400. Andonly - 4/28/2002 2:45:50 PM "Who is this Phares guy?" 9401. Andonly - 4/28/2002 2:46:37 PM (Sorry, that's Friends of Sheba Medical Center-Tel Hashomer.) 9402. PelleNilsson - 4/28/2002 2:57:59 PM Ronski 9403. arkymalarky - 4/28/2002 3:02:38 PM At least 1,315 Palestinians and 458 Israelis have been killed since the start in September 2000 of the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. 9404. PelleNilsson - 4/28/2002 3:07:05 PM And Rustler is very disappointed at the kill ratio. It should be at least 10:1, he thinks. 9405. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 3:07:23 PM wonkers: 9406. PelleNilsson - 4/28/2002 3:10:52 PM #9396 is another POJ link to freerepublic and an unattributed "report" there. 9407. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 3:12:02 PM Pelle: 9408. Property of Jesus - 4/28/2002 3:29:53 PM Pelle: My link actually goes to the NY Post. It reports: 9409. PelleNilsson - 4/28/2002 3:42:26 PM POJ 9410. Property of Jesus - 4/28/2002 3:52:38 PM "A child of five would understand this. 9411. ronski - 4/28/2002 6:59:50 PM Pelle, 9412. marjoribanks - 4/28/2002 7:30:25 PM I have previously cited reasons why I think a Palestinian state has great potential to be, well, an Israeli-like success. 9413. marjoribanks - 4/28/2002 7:41:37 PM It generally comes as a shock to insulated Americans that the popular conception of Palestinians in much of the Arab world is that of educated, rich, canny, clannish and cunnicg achievers. It is, in fact, misleading (and in part a careful and dangerous deceit) to think of the mass of that people as the desperate, stone-throwing, uneducated, rabble that you see on TV. Those are the last remnants of the population, though also the most entrenched. The rest were expelled, and have multiplied and fruitfully occupied themselves in the countries I named above and the West. And since the initial expulsion, those with superior prospects and education also naturally found their way to places where they could make the most of their talents. 9414. JJBiener - 4/28/2002 8:00:40 PM Banks - Palestinians have been, over the past several decades, among the best-educated, best-achieving of all the Middle East peoples. 9415. marjoribanks - 4/28/2002 8:10:52 PM Having read some varied commentary on the UK/US scheme to allow Arafat out from under seige, I have to say that it appears to be a good thing and a fine first step towards injecting some international military presence into the region. First they'll be there to watch the prisoners, then, hopefully, they'll be persuaded (or forced) to expand their presence. 9416. marjoribanks - 4/28/2002 8:16:12 PM I am not sure where you get your information, but it runs counter to everything I have heard and against common sense. 9417. marjoribanks - 4/28/2002 8:25:38 PM Now, I am not trying to imply that Palestinians abroad are totally analogous to the Jewish diaspora in the West. The comparison I have made is expressly in terms of be other Arabs, and in terms of the potential positive contributions that can be made to a nascent state. 9418. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 8:31:29 PM JJB "A Palestinian state will be a disaster." 9419. JJBiener - 4/28/2002 8:33:44 PM Banks - I am an American, but I have stong ties to the Middle East. I have read various histories of the area covering roughly the last 3000 years. Perhaps rather than insulting my intelligence, you could explain where you get your information. 9420. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 8:35:44 PM 435 refusniks. Thanks RP. The report I saw said the numbers have been rising. 9421. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 8:39:18 PM JJBiener--Good to see you back in action, so to speak! 9422. JJBiener - 4/28/2002 8:48:27 PM Wonk - I am surprised that someone who is so intelligent in so many areas can be so blind in this one. To think that Israeli settlements are the cause of this conflict is misguided in the extreme. 9423. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 9:12:42 PM JJ hits the nail on the head there. Gaza was Egyptian and the West Bank was Jordan (that's why it's called the West Bank, and not the Central Mountains. It's the area past the western bank of the Jordan river, as viewed from Amman). 9424. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 9:15:49 PM JJ, Flattery will get you nowhere! I think of myself as open minded and relatively neutral or pro-Israel on the conflict. I've never been to the Middle East and claim no special expertise. All I know is what I read, including here in the Mote. You are just about the first person I've seen claim that the settlements have not contributed to the current conflict. If you re-read my post, I didn't say "caused," I said "caused, in great part." If you prefer I will change that to the settlements "contribute to the current conflict." Surely you recognize that they are on of the major issues. Your posts strike me as wishful thinking that the Palestinians would just go away. Well, I doubt they will just go away. 9425. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 9:20:47 PM Actually no, the WB is probably called that from the time of the British Mandate: the Brits had a mandate over Palestine, but it consisted mostly of territory east of the Jordan and thus outside the area of historical Palestine. So I assume 'WB' and 'EB' became shorthand in order to differentiate. 9426. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 9:24:56 PM wonkers: 9427. betty - 4/28/2002 9:25:10 PM 9428. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 9:27:19 PM Does anyone believe that we will expel the Pals? Have I managed to convince any of you that this will happen? 9429. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 9:30:08 PM betty: 9430. betty - 4/28/2002 9:38:13 PM RP, 9431. ronski - 4/28/2002 9:55:04 PM JJ, 9432. Property of Jesus - 4/28/2002 9:55:32 PM Hebron under attack from the Israelis. 9433. ronski - 4/28/2002 9:57:27 PM Pike, 9434. ronski - 4/28/2002 10:06:16 PM What we should not do is accept a stalemate between Israel and the Pals. The world can no longer afford such a luxury. 9435. Andonly - 4/28/2002 10:15:25 PM Margarine: "I submit that a redirection of US aid in a more equitable fashion - say 4-5 million daily for the smaller Pal population will immediately yield results for the new state. Hell, they'll make the desert "bloom" too." 9436. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 10:15:25 PM CNN Europe has now managed to write 'Girl, 5, among West Bank victims' in its front page. Scumwads. 9437. Andonly - 4/28/2002 10:17:11 PM Spanks: "It generally comes as a shock to insulated Americans that the popular conception of Palestinians in much of the Arab world is that of educated, rich, canny, clannish and cunnicg achievers." 9438. Andonly - 4/28/2002 10:17:29 PM Wonkers: "435 refusniks. Thanks RP. The report I saw said the numbers have been rising." 9439. betty - 4/28/2002 10:19:58 PM RP, 9440. Andonly - 4/28/2002 10:22:26 PM Pike: have you heard this singer Emil Zrihan? A Moroccan Israeli Jew, supposedly a countertenor (like David D'Or), does songs with N. African Arab/Spanish/Jewish influences? 9441. Andonly - 4/28/2002 10:33:24 PM "Does anyone believe that we will expel the Pals? Have I managed to convince any of you that this will happen?" 9442. ronski - 4/28/2002 10:36:08 PM Andonly is correct. Pike is dreaming. He is advocating ethnic cleansing, claiming the fix is in and that it is inevitable. Such will not happen, barring my worst scenario and andonly's. 9443. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 11:15:28 PM Andonly--"prove it." I might just as well say prove it is not true that the conflict is caused in large part by Israel's settlements policy. It's an opinion with which nearly everyone I've read in the U.S. and around the world agrees. Are you saying that the settlements are not one of the main issues in the conflict? That, in my estimation is a minority, and quite partisan position, equivalent to saying, on the other hand that suicide bombing is not a major cause of the conflict. Get real. 9444. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 11:19:26 PM Andonly, Where is your peace plan? We've been patiently waiting for you to unveil it. Now's the time! 9445. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 11:45:44 PM wonkers: 9446. RustlerPike - 4/28/2002 11:47:24 PM And we've all forgotten about Hebron. That was supposed to be the flashpoint. It may happen quite soon. It's been oddly quiet there, until now. 9447. msgreer - 4/28/2002 11:50:31 PM Israel receives the US aid it does for several reasons. Israel remains the sole democracy in the region. It has been a strong ally for over 50 years and that loyalty is worth something. Israel is also a major source of intelligence and its location is strategically important to the US. 9448. JJBiener - 4/28/2002 11:57:21 PM MsGreer - I couldn't have said it better myself. 9449. wonkers2 - 4/28/2002 11:57:51 PM Good to see you back in the MOTE. How is law school? JJ promised we would get together for dinner again when he comes to Detroit. But he dropped out of sight. 9450. RustlerPike - 4/29/2002 12:07:17 AM msgreer and JJ are back! 9451. JJBiener - 4/29/2002 12:10:14 AM Wonkers - The settlements are used as an excuse to fuel the Intifada. They may be used as a rallying cry to whip up the masses, but that is about it. 9452. JJBiener - 4/29/2002 12:13:10 AM Wonkers - I am no longer working for the company that sent to Detroit. I do plan on being in Detroit at some point in the future, and you can count on dinner. This time it is my treat. 9453. JJBiener - 4/29/2002 12:19:20 AM Ronski - A Palestinian national identity? I don't think so. What we have is Arafat setting up his own personal fiefdom and whipping up his people into froth to keep them loyal. As long as he keeps them in a state of hysterical hatred of everything Israeli, they won't notice how little he has really accomplished and how much they have lost because of him 9454. Andonly - 4/29/2002 12:44:00 AM "It's an opinion with which nearly everyone I've read in the U.S. and around the world agrees." 9455. Andonly - 4/29/2002 12:46:17 AM "Andonly, Where is your peace plan? We've been patiently waiting for you to unveil it. Now's the time!" 9456. Andonly - 4/29/2002 12:54:57 AM "That would only happen if we fell for that 'give them a full fledged state first, then see what happens' line." 9457. Andonly - 4/29/2002 12:59:00 AM What's going on in Hebron? Any news? 9458. JJBiener - 4/29/2002 1:09:00 AM There won't be a regional war because the Arab states would get their collective asses kicked just like they did in '48, '54, '67 and '73. The only hope they have of defeating Israel is if Sadaam manages to develop biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. 9459. concerned - 4/29/2002 2:04:33 AM But Seriously: Resentment & Revenge 9460. concerned - 4/29/2002 2:28:25 AM UN Jenin Inquiry would be a witch hunt? 9461. betty - 4/29/2002 6:45:34 AM Ms. Greer, 9462. betty - 4/29/2002 6:45:55 AM It has been 6 years since Arafat was "elected" the head of the interim Palestinian government. What has happened in that 6 years? Where are the schools? The farms? The businesses? Anything? 9463. marjoribanks - 4/29/2002 10:55:33 AM In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders. 9464. concerned - 4/29/2002 11:00:17 AM Re. 9461 - 9465. concerned - 4/29/2002 11:29:00 AM Some human rights paradise SA is - where a woman has one chance in three of being raped each year. 9466. ronski - 4/29/2002 1:37:02 PM Is Pike's Plan 2200 Sharon's Plan? 9467. mgleason - 4/29/2002 2:46:28 PM RP, 9468. RustlerPike - 4/29/2002 2:52:17 PM You forgot this part, marj: 9469. RustlerPike - 4/29/2002 2:56:40 PM mg: 9470. RustlerPike - 4/29/2002 2:59:19 PM If someone could come up with hash's old e-mail (I need the part after the @, something with "cia-" in it) I could try and contact Kaye. Maybe she kept the old e-address. 9471. concerned - 4/29/2002 3:14:48 PM Re. 9468 - 9472. RustlerPike - 4/29/2002 3:45:29 PM Wackiness or whackiness? 9473. marjoribanks - 4/29/2002 3:49:53 PM Well, Spike, the cartoonishly stupid right-winger is unsurprisingly wrong. It's 'wacko', 'wacky', 'wackiness', etc. 9474. PelleNilsson - 4/29/2002 4:09:29 PM Rustler 9475. concerned - 4/29/2002 4:35:29 PM Re. 9473 - 9476. concerned - 4/29/2002 4:38:26 PM Of course, I may have a slightly incorrect mix of connotations here. 9477. wonkers2 - 4/29/2002 5:21:59 PM Andonly, Occasionally when you try to pull RP back from the edge, I get the feeling that you are a rational and fair partisan. But when you deny the settlements are a significant contributor to the conflict you reduce yourself to being simply a partisan. That's the sad thing about conflicts of this kind--what it does to the minds of good people. 9478. JJBiener - 4/29/2002 6:35:13 PM Wonkers - Let's think about this for a minute. The settlements are merely groups of people putting previously unused land to good use. They are hurting no one. I don't see why you consider them to be a major cause of the problem. 9479. concerned - 4/29/2002 6:46:43 PM For any mental midgets still inclined to quibble, btw., even M-W's collegiate dictionary lists 'whacky' as a variant of 'wacky'. 9480. JJBiener - 4/29/2002 6:54:46 PM Tommy - This spelling discussion is applicable how? 9481. concerned - 4/29/2002 6:57:54 PM Why don't you ask the person who brought it up in the first place? 9482. Andonly - 4/29/2002 7:01:39 PM "An
It is Incorrect
April 18, 2001
Ariel Sharon's popularity among Israelis has plummeted, apparently because they think he is using too little force, an opinion poll showed yesterday.
You always manage to amaze me. You would have us believe that the Israelis were always for a two-state solution and the Palestinains were always against one.
I might add that the Israelis have also fought barbarously, although in a more casual or accidental manner, which must make it all right.
They didn't mean to shoot a mentally-retarded bell-ringer in Bethlehem, and there might even be an investigation, and a soldier might--or might not--get his wrist slapped, so that's ok. A bunch of kids might have been in the wrong place at the wrong time when we rocketed a Hamas leader, gosh that's too bad, but hey, we could have killed more of them if we hadn't been careful. Such comiseration means as much to the families of the innocent and random victims killed as a statement of regret from Arafat would--if he ever gets around to one--to the families of the victims of a suicide bombing.
You always manage to amaze me. You would have us believe that the Israelis were always for a two-state solution and the Palestinains were always against one.
I am amazing. First, support your statement that I would have us believe that the Israelis were always for a two-state solution and the Palestinains were always against one. Then, provide the factual support requested by Andonly.
Then, after you do even the most cursory legwork to support your oatmeal, explain what the bellringer in Bethlehem has to do with anything.
I might add that the Israelis have also fought barbarously, although in a more casual or accidental manner, which must make it all right.
So did we, post 9/11. War reporter Robert Young Pelton says Well, they kill a lot of people. The thing that doesn't come through is that we have killed thousands and thousands and thousands of people and you've very rarely seen an American soldier kill a foreign national [on television]. You've never seen a foreign national kill an American soldier.
Please tell me as you strum your reductionist, post-modern equivalence dittie.
So, are we bin Laden and the Taliban?
First, where are the cultures? Are they equivalent on the road to civilization? Is a suicide murderer blowing up a seder an IDF prosecuting a war against terror in Ramallah? Are the societies the same, indoctrinating their people with similar civilized values and practices?
Of course not.
So, presuming there is a distinction, before there can be a settlement, the barbaric party must renounce and/or civilize past its barbarism.
Then, and only then, can a settlement be reached.
Until that time, the only thing that can be achieved is some semblance, however porous, of security, whether it is provided by the Israelis, or some NATO force.
Sadly, so many namby-pamby handwringers can't bring themselves to make distinctions, so the actions of terrorists and the IDF become synonymous. The intractable nature of the conflict is too much for some in the West to bear, what with its compelling argument that one side is significantly more dangerous than the other.
After that, it is a hop, skip and a jump to blaming all parties for intransigence and acting as if all parties are culturally equivalent.
Ironically, however, the truth (that Israel is by no means as barbarous as her Arab enemies) bleeds through, incredibly, to Israel's detriment -- the unpsoken reality of Israel's presumed civility is used against it, as moaning woe about collateral casualties.
Then the Mad Hatter serves tea.
Given the skewed view of the polite outsiders who preach equivalence, it is a wonder the Israelis sacrifice so many soldiers. After all, if suicide murdering civilians is the loss of civilians by incidental and unintended fire, why not just line up all the Palestinian men and mow them down.
That, of course, would be equivalence.
You vehemently hate Jews and yet you categorize them as reptilian? Look in the mirror, babe.
This is the remark I'm responding to:
why not just line up all the Palestinian men and mow them down
I don't know Sak's opinion on Jews, though I have seen some harsh words for Israelis and Zionists. Once again, don't mistake anti-zionism for anti-semitism.
Acording to my game plan, Ariel Sharon should now, having destroyed the Pal quasi-state's architecture as brutal payback for an 18-month intifada and suicide bombing, smile and say Israel is ready to deal with any Pal representative but Arafat, and to prove it, Sharon should dismantle all the settlements in Gaza. Meanwhile, he should warn, any suicide bombings will elicit from Israel more merciless poundings on the order of Jenin, the hell with the international community.
It's called dealing from strength, consolidating defensible positions. But instead, Sharon insists with all due hubris that no settlements will be dismantled under his watch. (I suspect this position is partly a result of that NRP scum having joined his cabinet.)
This is no good. It means there is now no center, as well as no persuasive left, in Israeli governance--only the far right and the nearly far right. But ordinary Israelis still don't want to have to protect the isolated settlements indefinitely, or occupy the Pals in order to shield the hides of Jewish nutters.
Our Rustler Pike of the Hairy Back and No Cunnilingus says Sharon is sure to be reelected. But I've read articles in Haaretz that claim otherwise--that say Sharon intends to exile Fat as his last act of governance, because he knows he will lose to Bibi in the next eletion.
I have no way of knowing what's more likely, but I sure wish I had a better idea of what the Israeli electorate is going to do, and what Netanyahu might do differently from Sharon.
Sakonige is an avowed antisemite, Betty, and has been for years. Nowadays, though, she drapes her Jew-hatred in anti-Zionism, the better to seem reasonable.
Leaving aside just how the Palestinians would eliminate Israel, let me remind you how permanent so-called provisional and temporary arrangements can become. The Irish accepted an incomplete solution in 1921, with every intention of unifying Ireland, through fighting or peaceful means sometime in the future. Northern Ireland has proved to be a problem, but in spite of that, Ireland has proven to be a viable state, and although many Irish still want a unified Ireland, Sinn Fein's persistently dismal showing in the elections show that there is little support for forcible unification.
Okay. Now some questions:
or perhaps it's a refinement...I don't really know, i don't really care...the post Jen was alluding to addressed Zionism/Israeli state specifically...I won't stand for any confusion of anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
So much slander in so few words!
I denied the hairy back libel a while ago. A few follicles betwixt the shoulders and some spinal plumage do not a hairy back make.
Moshe, my neighbor who doesn't acknowledge my existence (as opposed to Yuval, my other neighbor who just doesn't talk to me) - now that's a hairy monkey for you.
I was an avid cunninguist once, but at a certain point I admit I grew tired of it. However, should my wife return to my bed after a year's absence, I promise to go down on her repeatedly and lengthily, as requested (she'll never ask for it - heh heh. She's a good old fashioned farm girl), and even if not, for quite a while.
Did I say Sharon would be reelected? Well, in any case, yes, I assume he will be.
There are posters palstered all over Tel Aviv now, saying 'expel the Arab enemy'. A famous singer, Yaffa Yarkoni, was to receive a lifetime achievement award but nobody bought tickets because of her pro-Pal remarks to a newspaper. That is the Israeli mindset. You wonder that we have moved to the right after the Passover Massacre? You really think we're going to give the Pals anything in return for this bestial evil?
All I want to give them is a Ramadan Massacre. Let's see: there are 100 times as many Arabs in the ME as Jews. An eye for an eye, just for the Passover Massacre, would involve blowing up about 3,000 Muslims at Mecca, I guess. Wonder how that would go down in the Arab world.
Any noises the Bush admin has made about what Israel should do were made purely to appease the anti-Israel loudmouths at home and abroad.
It took you guys awhile to figure it out, but as long as Sharon keeps playing the two-steps- forward, one-step-back game in de-occupying the WB, everything'll be cool. 
You call this hairy?
Israelis: Weapons smuggled from
Iran, Iraq on Arafat chopper
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Tuesday, April 23, 2002
RAMALLAH — Israeli military sources said documents and material found in the
Ramallah office of PA Chairman Yasser Arafat point to weapons and material
either sent or modified by Baghdad and Teheran. The weapons and material were
apparently smuggled in Arafat's helicopter during his frequent trips abroad, the
sources said.
The material found in Arafat's headquarters also raised the prospect that the PA
are preparing to develop chemical weapons. The sources said the material
confirms documents that referred to plans to research and develop biological and
chemical weapons.
Your comments on Sharon may come to pass. I hope you're correct, because whenever Bibi is your fallback liberal, things can't be all bad. Dismantling settlements gratis is the way to go, but you must do it at that golden moment when it cannot be disouted that your act is entirely gratuitous. Otherwise, if you even emit a whiff of having done something as a result of suicide bombings, you've just bought 1000 more. It doesn't take much to hearten the savage.
How does JC rate such a promotion?
After reading Safire, I say thank God for hanging chads.
I'm serious, btw. Who but God could've saved us like that? If Clinton was in power, we would have had Lieberman on our side, maybe he would've even resigned in a puff - but then what?
Thank God, thank God, thank God.
Period.
Ceasar... Rome?
You're hairy, dude. Like, row my slave ship kind of hairy.
Gotcha.
So basically, he promoted himself.
...about two recent stories. The Times Education Life supplement just reported that the best-selling book in China for the past 16 months is a book, in Chinese, about how to get your teenager into Harvard, titled "Harvard Girl Yiting Liu." In this book a Chinese mother shares her "scientifically proven methods" for getting her daughter into Harvard. It has sold more than 1.1 million copies and triggered 15 copycats for how to get into Columbia, Oxford or Cambridge. In the same week it was reported that the normally intelligent Saudi ambassador in London, Ghazi Algosaibi, had published a poem in Al-Hayat in praise of the 18-year-old Palestinian girl who blew herself up in an Israeli supermarket, saying to her, "You died to honor God's word."
Okay. Now some questions:
Do the Irish have a religion that exhorts them to take up arms against the English infidels?
Yes, this is precisely the fear of the English over a good span of Irish history, and their justification for the Penal Laws which criminalized the practice of the Catholic faith.
Is England surrounded on three sides by 20 Catholic countries which have all, in the very recent past, waged war on it, and are some of them still at war with it?
Since England is of course an island, I hope you'll give me a little leeway here- England has about 10 Catholic countries in the neighborhood, and England's most recent one on one war was with Catholic Argentina
Do some of these countries possess WMD and continue to plan England's destruction?
Well, one never really knows about the French for the present. They have a long history of planning English destruction, as do the Spanish and the Germans [who are only partially Catholic] the Americans [ditto, but not recently] the Irish [recent and very Catholic] the Italians [ditto] as well as the Sweedes and the Danes, [long ago, before their Catholic phase]
Is England about 1/4 the size of Wales and do the Irish want their independent state smack dab in the heart of England?
look at Ulster, and the parallel fits from the Orange Irish perspective. Again the island issue comes into play, but from the John Bull view the Republic's size is comparable to Englands [though not the UK]
A. Not London, but perhaps (London)Derry at one time.
B. Yes, Mortar attacks were aimed at Number 10 Downing St not that long ago.
Do England's Catholic neighbors fund and support the IRA and supply it with weapons?
Catholic expats have for years from Canada, the US, and Australia.
Do students in Spain, France and Germany cheer each time an IRA human bomb blows itself up in a London shopping mall or bus? Does the Ukraine pay the families of these human bombs $25,000?
A. At the height of the troubles 1914-23, yes, and yes again after Bloody Sunday, up to the Mitchel plan.
B. No, money was paid to families of IRA soldiers and prisoners through Noraid etc from the same sources above.
and we all know how that has played out. Your countrymen should take heed, Pike. Irish statehood was something of the distant past when it was achieved, as was Israel's. I don't know of a Pal 'Micheal Collins', but he may be out there. You need to plan on having neighbors, not refugees, one day. You also need to keep that in mind as you deal with the present regime, with all its weaknesses of will and character. Those are not the same as the character of the people as a nation.
This, of course, is a lie.
Andonly doesn't speak for me. Obviously, no one can know what I think about anything without asking me.
Oddly enough, out of the three of them, the homunculus from Irgun didn't bother me at all. I mean, if you think about it, why should he bother any American? We know exactly who he is and, in a way, we should be grateful for that. Because if we're only willing to absorb their own words--nevermind their demonic deeds--he and his brethren have a perfectly uncomplicated point of view and agenda, and their clarity should give us our own clarity, and wouldn't that be refreshing? You want us dead? Well, now, isn't that a funny coincidence. Guess what we want?
My point is, if American TV calls up and wants to put these philanthropists on, who could blame them for saying, "Sure!" I can just see them bursting out laughing and slapping each other on the back. ("They're going to put us on Fox TV! I told you terror works! And I'll bet their Green Room beats the snot out of the BBC. I mean, please, how many crumpets can you eat?") If we're stupid enough to do that, I don't blame them for taking us up on it. All they have to do is take a few minutes away from packing rusty nails around the C4, pick one of their guys who looks, relatively, the least like a vicious scumbag, borrow a suit, and send him forth to smile for the cameras. With Mahmood Aziz.
The Zionists want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Zionists It's a made up word. Palestine was called Zion two thousand years ago. Like "Wiccan," "Zion" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the British won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Zionists" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Zionists" then. As soon as the British took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Zionists" weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Zionist" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Jews From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Arab-Haters."
Still funny with the changes? Not racist? Make no mistake, I don't see an moral equivalency between the PLO, or Hamas or Islamic Jihad and Israel's democratically elected morons, (or ours for that matter). Nevertheless, an anti Arab screed loses some of its reasonableness if it is projected back onto the pre-48 Israel and applied to Jews. More of a sensitivity exercise than political position.
Well, there are quite a lot of flaws in that exercise. Uganda was never really offered us - it was just an impracticable idea that was floated and eventually shot down by the British as well as the Zionists, and Africa belongs to someone too, you know. Zionism existed before the British victory in 1914, and Zion had existed for millennia, either under Jewish sovereignty or in Jewish prayers and longing. Also, we don't do C-4 and nails. We don't call the Arab countries or even the Pals 'the Islamist entity'. We have a country, we do a pretty good job of taking care of the sewage, etc., and we're not exactly the world's most illiterate savages, I think.
The one interesting thing, for me, was to try and imagine this Mahmood Aziz character. I think the fact that we produce Chomskys and such only goes to show how clever and powerful we are. Think about it. If I were an Arab, and I discovered that I needed the help of a Jew to fight the Jews - I'd fucking give up.
To your questions --
I've taken the sensitivity exercise. Nope. Still not racist.
Is your version funny? Not really, because it has no basis in truth, which is what makes the Miller piece very funny.
Your revision is basically rooted in falsehoods (your understanding of Zionism is ahistorical, Israelis have their own country, they don't dance for joy at the deaths of others, they don't overwhelmingly support suicide bombing, they've offered land for peace, and they haven't tried to destroy Palestine for 50 years, etc . . .)
Now, if any of these things were true, your version might be funny.
Though Unless I'm missing something, the Jews haven't given anything to the world since the Ten Comandments, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that is pretty funny.
You won't "stand for" any confusion? That's very nice.
So unconfuse yourself already. Sakonige is an antisemite. She does not mince words about it. She will explain her hatred of Jews for you in detail, if only you ask. She describes Judaism as a "filthy religion." Her commentary on the Pal-Is situation is driven by pathology, nothing more: the woman needs to hate people, and she latches most ferociously onto folks other people are mad at, too. When it's not Jews, it's Christians, or even Muslims, but Muslims are her heroes this year because their extremists are militating barbarously against Jews and Christians. She digs that.
Everything clear now?
Life gets more amusing the longer I live.
It's so funny how they adjust their rhetoric to fit the proclivities of whomever's reading.
"Gosh, I just can't believe she's really an antisemite, she's just one of the many anti-Zionists out there who get unfairly labelled."
"That's right, dear, that's all I am, that's all I've ever been, and these Jewish pigs just don't know how to take an honest put-down. Fucking weaklings."
The fact that I think you are race supremacist asshole doesn't mean I think everyone with Jewish ancestry is. Many people with Jewish ancestry are decent and fairminded human beings. I understand that you are responsible for your own political and religious beliefs.
Got to agree with this part.
TV commercial, words appearing on the screen:
Saudi Arabia has been prominent among the countries acting against the accounts of terrorist organizations.
Secretary of State Colin Powell, November 7, 2001
(I've put some of the text in white font so as to simulate those words gradually becoming visible onscreen.)
The voice-over: 'Don't judge.'
Polling data will follow.
"The fact that I think you are race supremacist asshole doesn't mean I think everyone with Jewish ancestry is. Many people with Jewish ancestry are decent and fairminded human beings. I understand that you are responsible for your own political and religious beliefs."
HAHAHAHA! Get that, Betty? It's okay to have Jewish ancestry. But to be a Jew is to be a "race suprematist asshole".
Keep spinning, Sakko.
You are an anti-Semite too, Pelle. Most people are.
Nearly all Europeans are now classified as anti-Semites, according to the news. The entire staff of the UN and everyone who agrees with them on the subject of Israel is an anti-Semite. Anyone who disagrees with Israel on any subject is now an anti-Semite, according to a press release by some Zionist organization yesterday.
Israeli Public Opinion on National Security 1999
Memorandum no. 53, July 1999
Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies
Tel Aviv University
Table 5. Support for Discussing... in Talks with Palestinians
An independent
Palestinian state
1990 26%
1993 30%
1994 41%
1995 44%
1996 48%
1997 52%
1998 47%
1999 61%
Table 5 (cont.). Support for Discussing... in Talks with Palestinians
Removing Jewish
settlements
1990 32%
1993 43%
1994 50%
1995 45%
1996 49%
1997 53%
1998 47%
1999 56%
East Jerusalem
1990 13%
1993 17%
1994 14%
1995 15%
1996 17%
1997 25%
1998 21%
1999 26%
> He accused Israel of going beyond all limits and using state terrorism to commit appalling violations of human rights against Palestinian civilians.
> Mr Mubarak said that following their barbaric and systematic aggression, the Israelis were in the process of destroying evidence of the horrendous crimes perpetrated under the pretext of fighting terrorism.
Mr. Mubarak is, of course, an anti-Semite.
The right of return
1990 9%
1993 12%
1994 14%
1995 12%
1996 11%
1997 17%
1998 13%
1999 13%
Israeli Public Opinion on National Security 1999
Memorandum no. 53, July 1999
Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies
Tel Aviv University
Table 6. (Support for) Territories to be Returned in the Permanent Agreement
Western Samaria
1994 30%
1995 30%
1996 38%
1997 44%
1998 39%
1999 41%
Gush Etzion
1994 14%
1995 18%
1996 20%
1997 26%
1998 26%
1999 32%
Jordan Valley
1994 18%
1995 19%
1996 20%
1997 20%
1998 23%
1999 23%
East Jerusalem
1994 10%
1995 9%
1996 12%
1997 20%
1998 17%
1999 21%
How do you evaluate the facts that in the year 2000, 80% of Palestinians supported targeting Israelis for death, anywhere, anyhow (see my prior link) with the above numbers, which appear to gauge what Israelis were willing to bargain for at various stages throughout the 90s?
Why not just link to your source (or cite where it was published)?
I'm curious.
Do you think that a population that can swing from 1 in 4 support to 4 in 5 support for the killing of civilians at seders, shopping malls, and on buses in the space of just over two years is a smart choice for statehood - on your borders?
To your question - the facts that account for the upswing are an uneducated backward population, a barbaric transmogrification of their religion, the the steady work of terrorist organizations whose stated goals are NO DEAL and JEWS ARE EVIL(you can look it up).
By all accounts Israeli attitudes have been almost as volatile. A large segment of the populace also holds similar views to those you cite for the Palestinians (NO DEAL and Arafat is Hitler). I trust that you wouldn't deprive Israel of its existence because of this.
I might also add that Palestinians are among the best educated and most advanced segment of the Arab world. Keep trying.
In equivalent world, I wonder why?
Womabt counters by mentioning that the Israelis have had disparate views on various issues of negotiations with the Palestinians.
And adds that Palestinians are the most educated and advanced segment of the Arab world.
Quite a knock on the Arab world, when 2 out of 3 Palestinians presently support suicide bombings.
Very elegant. Very cultured.
I wonder where the equivalent article is on the Palestinians?
Oh wait. Two out of three of them want to kill Israeli civilians.
By all means, get them closer, legitimize them with a state, and keep on trucking!
Israel better demand that in any future deal for land and/or sovereignty with the Palestinians, NATO and the UN provide 100,000 troops for the borders.
Make it a modern Korea.
During this holiday [Purim], the Jew must prepare very special pastries, the filling of which is not only costly and rare - it cannot be found at all on the local and international markets... the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries. ... the victim must be a mature adolescent who is, of course, a non-Jew - that is, a Christian or a Muslim. His blood is taken and dried into granules. The cleric blends these granules into the pastry dough... Let us now examine how the victims' blood is spilled. For this, a needle-studded barrel is used…
Of course, the cultured Saudi Arabian ambassador to Great britain writes poetic odes to suicide bombers.
No wonder Wombat offers the Palestinian as the cream of the Arab world's cultural crop.
From page 10: "The relationship between perceived threat and support for a Palestinian state held. Threat was down, support for a state up."
During the period referenced here, which I believe was just before the 1999 elections that put Ehud Barak in power, 70% of Israelis supported the Oslo process.
Wombat: "By all accounts Israeli attitudes have been almost as volatile [as Palestinians']."
They haven't been "volatile" at all. They either hovered within 10 or 15 points of a percentage or become steadily more optimistic and conciliatory between 1990 and 1999. What reliably drove indicators precipitously away from gradual trust and optimism was...suicide bombings.
You cite lunatics to prove the general. It is as if I would cite Chomsky as representative of the American standpoint.
Where has your intellectual honesty gone? I believe you once had one.
Two out of three Palestinains, a university scholar and the ambassador to Great Britain are hardly "fringe" elements.
Here's more --
Gallup conducted in-person interviews during December and January of 9,924 residents in nine Muslim countries: Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Key findings:
Although U.S. officials say all 19 of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Arab men, only 18% of those polled in six Islamic countries say they believe Arabs carried out the attacks; 61% say Arabs were not responsible; and 21% say they don't know.
Now, go blow or throw your substanceless observations at someone else.
I ask again: where has the intellectual honesty gone? When did you turn into a sad mirror image of jexster?
Chomsky is a "university scholar" by the way, acclaimed as a linguist but a political wacko.
But the first duty of the intellectual is to tell the truth. Truth is not much in fashion in this postmodern age when continental charlatans have infected Anglo-American intellectuals with the thought that objective knowledge is not only undesirable but unobtainable. I believe that to abandon the idea of truth not only leads to political fascism, but stops dead all intellectual inquiry. To give up the notion of truth means forsaking the goal of acquiring knowledge. But man, as Aristotle put it, by nature strives to know. Truth, science, intellectual inquiry and rationality are inextrica bly bound together. Relativism, and its illegitimate offspring, multiculturalism, are not conducive to the critical examination of Islam.
You can't follow the conversation. Thus, you are left with your tepid queries and stale observations. For the time being, I'm sure there are those whom will engage you. Let me know when you can afford the ante to enter into discourse with me.
Did I ever say that most Israelis opposed the Oslo Accords and negotiating with the Palestinians? What I did say, and is borne out in the data I was asked to supply was that Israel was split on the two state solution.
SEA CHANGE: Jewish voters gravitating toward GOP (Bush approval at 85%)
I'm tired of you. I'm tired of your accusations of "tepid queries and stale observations" when in fact it is you who has failed to introduce any independent thought into the debate in this thread. You, like jexster, rely on dubious sources that feed your preconceived ideas.
You watch too many movies, Julius. You are locked into the naive hollywoodian white hat/black hat view of the world.
Stick to events inside the beltway and on select golf courses in the continental US. You're good at that.
There is a difference, all the same: Al Quaeda's aims and the Taliban regime lacked legitimacy in Afghanistan and around the world, and they were quickly toppled, with remnants hiding in the mountains and being pursued around the world. Contrast this to Israel and the Palestinians.
However much some scoff at the Palestians' national aspirations, their right to an independent state is supported not just by those who have always had a thing for the "oppressed," but by the United States. The inevitability of a Palestinian state is recognized if not welcomed by most Israelis. While US and international action may prove to be effective in crushing Al Quaeda, can anyone say that of Israel's actions against the Palestinians?
You haven't had anything to say for as long as I can remember, and you still don't. Hence, I don't bother you. You are singularly uninteresting. The only time I address you is when you say something that you cannot back up and it reflects upon me or after you address me in what is always a banal manner. You cannot tire of me fast enough.
Unfortunately, for all my faults, you remain fascinated with me.
Now, to the crackpot that is Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Feisal University.
Where was his lunacy to be found?
On his own retard website? In some fringe quarterly? In Saudi's Guns & Ammo?
No. It was found in Al-Riyadh.
In last week's issue, The Scrapbook printed extended excerpts from an astounding essay published in the March 10 edition of the Saudi newspaper Al-Riyadh. That essay, written by a faculty member at King Faisal University, purported to detail the precise recipe and technique Jewish people employ in the preparation of pastries necessary for the Purim holiday. The Jews, Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma explained, slaughter adolescent Christians and Muslims, drain the blood from their bodies even while they're dying, and sprinkle that blood right into the dough.
Now the Los Angeles Times reports that last Tuesday--not coincidentally, we hope, 24 hours after The Scrapbook item in question had hit the newsstands--Al-Riyadh's editor, Turki Al Sudairy, repudiated Dr. Al-Jalahma's anti-Semitic filth and apologized for running it. Al Sudairy claimed the essay had slipped through the cracks, and that he had become aware of it only after his Washington, D.C., bureau chief phoned him up long-distance to express concern. He now says Al-Jalahma's piece was "unfit for publishing," "unacceptable," "silly," and "untrue."
Which is okay, one supposes, so far as it goes. The Scrapbook cannot help noticing, however, the reason why editor Al Sudairy seems to think Dr. Al-Jalahma missed the mark. "Mrs. Jalahma failed to realize . . . that Jews anywhere in the world are one thing, while those belonging to the Zionism movement who are eradicating Palestinians is a completely different thing," he says. "In Israel itself, there are moderate Jews--and it is unacceptable that our differences with specimens like that of Sharon should be the incentive to generalize our hatred toward all Jews."
Got that? It's all right to say Jews kill Christian and Muslim children and consume their blood, so long as you make clear you're only talking about Jewish "specimens" like the prime minister of Israel.
If you want it to be Fantasy Equivalent Island, be my guest.
They would have have us believe that they are tightly bound together, and that the Israelis are fighting against the Palestinians the same way as the US did in Afghanistan against Al Quaeda.
No they wouldn't. Our war in Afghanistan was prosecuted in a manner more indiscriminate than that of Israel. Moreover, we used Northern Alliance proxies, and woe to the non-Afghan Taliban who fell into their hands.
There is a difference, all the same: Al Quaeda's aims and the Taliban regime lacked legitimacy in Afghanistan and around the world, and they were quickly toppled, with remnants hiding in the mountains and being pursued around the world. Contrast this to Israel and the Palestinians.
This is foolish. We were actually non-plussed by The Taliban, so they were far from some rogue nation. Moreover, your factual recitation of the campaign is wholly irrelevant. You might as well say "There can be no comparison because the Taliban begins with a 'T' and so . .. there!"
However much some scoff at the Palestians' national aspirations, their right to an independent state is supported not just by those who have always had a thing for the "oppressed," but by the United States. The inevitability of a Palestinian state is recognized if not welcomed by most Israelis.
Recognizing that a Palestinian state may one day be a desirable thing is far from making the barbarism of the Palestinians equivalent to the condut of the Israelis, which you try and do on a regular basis.
Excellent point. I take it a step further. At some point, the legitimacy of your grievance (i.e., a state next to Israel, land, sovereignty) is made less legitimate by your irrationality (i.e., supporting suicide bombing, supporting targeting civilians, fomenting religious psychoses).
The real issue, to me, quite apart from Palestine, is what do we do with this very large, and possibly not rational, population?
I suggest that you review Sharon's and Netanyahu's statements before criticizing my take on them.
From the reports I have read, Afghans have tended to accept that their civilian casualties were unfortunate by-products of fighting that saw an oppressive regime driven out of their land. there also is the prospect of compensation, if not from the US, from the Afghan state.
By contrast, however careful the Israelis claim to be, every civilian killed by them is one killed not so that an oppressor is driven out, but so that an oppressor can remain, at least in the eyes of the Palestinians.
I say the answer is to have as little to do with them as possible. You know, the way average New Yorkers deal with the crazies on their streets.
And a wall around Palestine would be a good idea.
But a lot of them are in this country already, and not all of the ones who are here are rational.
Has there ever been a survey of Arab immigrants in the US and how many of them believe that 9/11 was Arabs? How about Arabic students? Muslim immigrants and students?
That would necessitate evacuating many settlements, which Sharon has just declared he will not do.
Afghans have tended to accept that their civilian casualties were unfortunate by-products of fighting that saw an oppressive regime driven out of their land. there also is the prospect of compensation, if not from the US, from the Afghan state. By contrast, however careful the Israelis claim to be, every civilian killed by them is one killed not so that an oppressor is driven out, but so that an oppressor can remain, at least in the eyes of the Palestinians.
I'm not sure there is a greater testament to your failure in analysis. Are the eyes of the Palestinians what drives your prescription for the conflict?
If so, the election of Sharon was certainly a provocative enough action to induce all sorts of barbarity.
For those eyes are very narrow.
The point of Oslo was a two state solution. What Israelis have always opposed or been shy of supporting was any arrangement that would ensure no end to terror.
And yes, you did supply some of the data I requested. But what it clearly shows is that as Israelis felt more secure they were readier to acquiesce to Pal statehood, and when they got murdered in their marketplces and on their school buses, they figured the Pals couldn't be trusted.
I'm sorry, perhaps I missed it, but where's your poll data detailing your claim about what Palestinians have wanted from 1992 to 1999? What, in the Palestinian moderate's mind, would a "two-state solution" have looked like? A Palestine for Palestinians and an Israel for Palestinians making full use of their right of return?
W to JC: "You claim--buying the Sharon argument hook, line and sinker--that the Palestinians went along with Oslo, but only to establish their own truncated state as a jumping off point for the total elimination of Israel."
That is precisely what the Palestinians with the guns and explosives did do, and intended. That's arguably what Arafat himself intended, and surely is what he intended by the time there was an imminent chance of achieving statehood (at Camp David). And frankly, what difference could it have made what the Pal on the street wanted, since after all, they live in a thugocracy, their median age is 16, and they can be manipulated like sheep?
And sorry, no, settlement building did not set off this Ragnarok. The "moderate" Pals (if there were any in 2000, after Israel's flight from Lebanon) were led straight into it by Pal extremists, on very little pretext. Or maybe on outright lies and whup-'em-up tactics--who knows?
I bet you won't find any reliable poll data on that, however.
How exactly do you know that? Bernard Lewis mentioned in the Charlie Rose interview I recapped that Pals in Jenin were enraged not only that the IDF had caused such damage there, but that Israel had brought Arafat back from exile to fuck them over in th first place. For all you know, they're as impatient as Jerusalem is for the PLO to be history.
And by the way, do you realize that only 10% (or a little less) of Jenin was destroyed by the IDF's incursion there?
Take Saudi Arabia. I don't mind buying oil from them. Coca-Cola don't aks what kind of man you are.
But will I equate Saudi Arabia with Israel, either as a moral force or a partner in policy?
Christian worship is banned;
Jews are physically excluded;
Wahhabis torture Shiites;
Publications by non-Wahhabi sects are banned, confiscated, and burned;
homosexuals are beheaded; robbers amputated;
and when school girls flee from a fire, their escape is hindered because they were not wearing headscarves and abayas;
Islamic sharia law otherwise shackles women.
The US's near mealy-mouth support of Israel is thus viewed as impossibly dogmatic.
But nervous and confusing, given the predictable pro-Palestinian madness from the rest of the world, is apparently translating as solidly pro-Israel.
I think that's necessary, too, to give the "moderate" Arab leaders the ability to save face.
I like the idea of moving all the Israelis out of the settlements, but I imagine that will cause population problems? I also think Palestinians should have control of their own water and power--although lord knows they might screw it up.
Quite possibly infrastructure wars will become a problem if they ever settle the land issue.
He won't threaten Israel with aid cut-off, and it will have nothing to do with guts, or lack thereof.
Do you support a Palestinian state now, today?
Given the circumstances, how long until that state is supplied with modern arms by the milquetoast and/or conspiracy-minded Arab nations? How long until Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others get maximum footing in that state by which to further massacre Jews?
No. If I'm Israel, no state, no land. Zero. Nada. No deal.
Until
1) the Authority brings me heads (not 10 day detentions) of terrorist figures, so the Authority's ass is on the line as well as mine with the extremist psychos; and
2) NATO/UN offer 100,000 troops for my borders, so they can get their little blue helmets spattered with the blood of martyrs.
Then, we're all in the soup together - engaged.
So, next best is a long, slow violence. Which argues against any massive land or state shift.
We want talks. And more talks. And even more talks.
But if they did, it would be war. Israel could legitimately declare war, and bomb the shit out of them.
I heard a Moslem American, of European extraction, say the same thing on the radio this morning. His description of his co-religionists in Palestine was that they are "savages."
No, not this instant. I like (1) and (2) first, then we can all talk.
But I think those kinds of preconditions would be part of the deal. I think Bush is quietly pro-Israel, but wants a settlement, soon.
A long, slow simmering conflict with lots of talks is what we had prior to 9/11, and prior to the decision to get Saddam.
Things have changed. We can't go back to the good old days.
On the subject of US aid to Irael, I'm ambivalent. In general, I'd like to see Israel independent of the US. But in reality, an aid cut would be employed to pressure Israel into something. That might not be a bad thing, if what we force them into is worth doing, security-wise. So if we pressure Israel into anything by cutting off aid, it should be dismantling some settlements; that would, in fact, provide an Israeli admin cover for accomplishing a partial withdrawal while at the same time improving US cred among (some) Arabs. Undertaken at the wrong moment or in the wrong way, though, it would also encourage radical Pals to believe the US had abandoned Israel and would permit it to be attacked again with impunity. Israel would set out to prove that impression deeply erroneous, and there'd be more fighting and more opportunities for Israel to be blamed for civilian deaths. The US would then probably have to get visibly back in Israel's corner.
Also, cutting US aid could backfire in Israel politically. The economy's in terrible shape there; people are losing jobs, and those who haven't yet are going to get taxed extra now (money for defense will supposedly be drawn largely from the Arab and Orth sectors, since these pops don't serve in the armed forces).
If we pulled out our support, I wonder whether it would push the populace further to the right.
I wouldn't count on that being the case under all circumstances.
Think about the despair that would ensue if the US, Israel's last friend on earth, pulled out its support at the same time a wave of suicide bombings were taking place, and the Euros were damning Israel for "massacres," and hard-right wingers were in the PM's seat and cabinet, and the economy was going to pieces, and Hizbullah was firing rockets into northern Israel.
You should expect to see then not only a hue and cry from the Jewish Left about how Israel needed to satisfy US demands, but a swing of secular Jews away from secularism.
Once the US is gone, Israelis have only themselves and God to depend on. The place is not exactly a Socialist collective living experiment any more, so my guess is that in the end, the winner would be God.
Our illiberal version of God, lest anyone forget, is no more inclined to negotiating with Amalek than Allah loves Jews.
And they'd lose, over time, on sheer numbers, I'm figuring.
Keep in mind that the US wouldn't pull out unless Israel was extremely unreasonable. But I don't think it hurts to remind them of the possibility.
I don't think that Israel would be foolish enough to refuse to accede to the US if the cost was losing our support. If they were willing to give up our support, then I'm not sure they'd have the luxury to swing far right--they'd be too busy trying to survive.
How long would they have money and weapons to fight, if we pulled out? That's not a rhetorical question; I don't know the answer.
Not exactly what one would expect of a "Nashville band". Think more along the lines of some logical extension of Lou Reed's Berlin, but not suicidally depressing.
Laura Blumenfeld was interviewed by Margaret Warner on the Lehrer News Hour tonight. She is a recent graduate of Harvard whose father was shot in the head, but not killed by a PAL terrorist when he was in Jerusalem on a business trip 12 years ago. Laura Blumenfeld went to Jerusalem and tracked down the young man who shot her father. He was in jail, so she knocked on the door of his family and introduced herself, in Arabic, as Laura, a reporter looking for information on their son's shooting of the American Jewish businessman. They welcomed her and apparently spoke freely about the incident.
Then she began to correspond with the man who had been imprisoned for shooting her father. Some time later he came up for parole, and with her father's permission she went to the parole hearing, and speaking this time in Hebrew, revealed her identity and requested to speak on the issue of parole. Much to everyone's surprise she testified in favor of the man's parole, stating her belief, based on their correspondence, that he would not commit another terrorist act. As a result of the process she went through she apparently gained enough understanding of the mentality of this terrorist and his family that her original desire for revenge was transformed into something less than revenge. Anyway, it was an interesting story. Perhaps there is a message in it. [In case you are wondering, the man was not paroled.]
***
Lamb Chop's earlier album, "What Another Man Spills," is laid back southern underground, and among other things features an excellent cover of Curtis Mayfield's "I've Been Lonely For So Long".
The newly released CD, "Is A Woman," is the one more along the lines of Reed's Berlin, mixed with something like Brian Eno's Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy). Excellent, strange lyrics with nuerous references to insects. Lots of broken chords and implied tonics.
Very good. Both very good.
HOUSTON, April 24 — Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is expected to tell President Bush in stark terms at their meeting on Thursday that the strategic relationship between their two countries will be threatened if Mr. Bush does not moderate his support for Israel's military policies, a person familiar with the Saudi's thinking said today.
Oh, brother - has the NYT been talking to Miss Cleo again?
So it would be the same exact thing, only worse. If Arafat had a state before the terror war began, we would have lost 4,000 Israelis before Opreation 'Protective Wall', not 400. Then we'd have to turn his state into a quasi-state before we could do everything we're doing now.
I believe in an independent Palestine, on 80% of the land originally included in the British Palestine Mandate. It is high time for that.
80%. Not 85%.
An end to the Hashemite kingdom. It's the only way.
But if they did, it would be war. Israel could legitimately declare war, and bomb the shit out of them.
Like we can do to Lebanon now, right?
If you're still lurking, there has been some news coming from the Israeli campuses. Demos, counter-demos. Jew vs. Arab, Right vs. Left, blah blah. I forget the details.
Even if Israel succeeds in quelling Pal terrorism, what about the demographic time bomb ticking away within Israel itself in say, 40 or 50 years?
How much of American wealth is in Jewish hands? How much is generated by Jews? I know that's an infuriating question, but there it is.
Even if Israel succeeds in quelling Pal terrorism, what about the demographic time bomb ticking away within Israel itself in say, 40 or 50 years?
My plan is to create an Israeli brand of reformed/protestant Judaism that would be more inclusive and make it a lot easier for Israeli Arabs to join. And I would try and welcome them to join.
Plus, Israeli Arabs are not necessarily going to be reproducing a lot more quickly than Israeli Jews. I've said this before: they are definitely quite westernized, or as we say - meshuknazim ('Ashkenazified') by now.
Read well, Lefties, and never say again that I'm incapable of giving Clowntoon credit where its due, because I'm going to say here that he did about what was possible through negotiations to end the conflict between Israel and the Pals here and for once rose to the level that we expect as a matter of course from GWB.
Of course, as this article points out, Arafat didn't want peace, and even if he had accepted the terms of the December 23rd treaty, the intifada would have gone on.
This is not a mistake or a policy gaffe," the person close to Abdullah said, referring to Mr. Bush's approach. "He made a strategic, conscious decision to go with Sharon, so your national interest is no longer our national interest; now we don't have joint national interests. What it means is that you go your way and we will go ours, economically, militarily and politically — and the antiterror coalition would collapse in the process."
Heh heh.
What exactly is the point in getting an answer to the question?
In any case, my off-the-cuff answer is, honestly, not that much. I doubt if the total would even reach 10% of annual GDP.
And in any case, there is a big divide between many (most?) people who refer to themselves (and consider themselves) Jewish in the US and whether they're accepted as Jewish in Israel. The move to the right in Israel, complete with religious ramifications, only heightens - not narows - the divide between Israelis and those in the diaspora. Bridges are being burned.
He made no bones about the reason why he and his co-religionists firmly back the Sharonists at this juncture. According to him, it is part the plan to ready the way for biblical prophesy. First the Jews will consolidate their hold on the Holy Land, then they will -en masse- find Christ and turn to Him. Then this heifer will be born and the Second Coming will be precipitated.
It is on such flimsy, wacko, ground that much of the American Right's backing for Israel is anchored. And there is terribly great potential for it to backfire or be withdrawn when you recalcitrant Jews are not seen to eagerly fulfill your part of the bargain and become Yank-style fundamentalist Christians.
The move to the right in Israel, complete with religious ramifications, only heightens - not narows - the divide between Israelis and those in the diaspora. Bridges are being burned.
I see no such trend, quite the opposite. Take me and ando, for instance. I'm practically fantasizing about the woman now. Once I called her a mischling: now I have reached the point where I am describing our future trysts in Shkhem to her in lurid detail.
I have been unwilling to agree with those who have signalled since 9/11 that anti-semitism is on the rise in the US. In Europe, yes. There, in France and in Spain and Germany there are enough indications that there is a stark increase in antisemetic acts, the main from Arab immigrants but also a rolled-up anti-Americanism, anti-semitism, anti-globalization phenomenon apparent in even academic and intellectual circles.
Here in the US, I found much more worrying (perhaps naturally) the sudden explosion of xenophobic diatribe even in the previously careful media (witness that awful Coulter troll) and the sudden acceptance that anyone who felt like it could talk out his ass about Arabs and the Muslim world and so on. I mean, that half-wit Maher, who wouldn't know a Muslim if one came and did jihad on his ass, found it possible to pontificate about moderate Muslims, and someone gave me a brief videotaped excerpt of some Barbara Walters daytime talk-show where four elderly-looking women who have obviously not read a foreign newspaper in their lives also rabbitted on about the same thing. Plus there were those killings, and the nervousness of every brownish Asian I know who doesn't live in NYC and the conversation I had with a shit-scared Sikh who actually took to wearing a red-white-and-blue turban.
But recent conversations I've been having at work, and especially with a whole slew of Americans abroad have alerted me to some possible worrying signs. It is not just Arabs who believe, unshakeably, that the media in the US is contolled by pro-Zionist Jews. That little "fact" is something that been told me, conservatively, 30 times in the past month by thirty different Americans. There are other indications, of course, but this one is a biggie.
I was told this "fact" by a medium ranking American working at the US Consulate in Bombay, and when he conspiratorially told it to me the other three men in the cocktail-party circle (two were his superiors) nodded agreement. They heard my counter-argument, exactly the same as in the previous paragraph except for the anti-semitism bit , frostily, they felt I "didn't get it".
I heard this "fact" from my air-hostess on Northwest Airlines (shitty airline, never fly it if you have the choice) from Amsterdam to NYC when she overheard me denouncing a NYTimes editorial to my wife. I heard it also from a very senior network executive of Fox TV (can you imagine?) who was consulting for the Murdoch channels in India (Star TV).
It is not exaggeration to say that every non-American who I met on this trip also quite firmly believed the "fact" if they cared one way or the other about the US media, but the real shocker to me was the overwhelming conviction among Americans that it is true. The Fox boyo, by the way, told me that there was "something to be done about it", the others seemed rather resigned to it being a fact of life.
That's pretty suspect, coming from a guy who calls himself maj.
Nothing that Sharon has said or done has given any indication that this is what he envisions, and he has said a great deal to the contrary. I cannot support Sharon's attempt to dig Israel deeper and drag the United States into what is an indefensible morass with no end in sight, and no coherent strategy toward reaching a conclusion.
Do you, Spike? I know you'll be honest in your answer.
Your #9131-#9132 are extremely interesting.
I'm certain Lou Dobbs talks that way off cam. He practically doeas so on cam.
But the story about the air hostess was particularly amazing. She just heard you saying something about the NYT editorial? You didn't mention Jews at all before she did?
Spooky.
I wonder if Ando is good looking at all. I've switched her from a salt-and-pepper mid-40s saggy mom to a perky mid-30ish type in my mind. Now it appears she may be here sooner than I even thought.
And you know, I think what Fisk was trying to say in the article you linked above was exactly what you were saying in your posts, only a lot less candidly.
I spend some time with long-time Middle East hands this trip, including an uncle who outright hates the Palestinians (and most Arabs) having spent 30 years working with them in the Gulf States. My conversation with him went like this - "The Palestinians are (sister-fucking) devils, and Arafat is the biggest (mother-fucking) demon of all. But what Sharon is doing now, and what America is helping him to do, is unimaginable shit. Americans like you will never be safe in the Middle East in your lifetime if it continues, I hope you kept your (piece-of-shit) Indian passport if you do want to continue going there. That (fat arse) Sharon is going to do what Bin laden couldn't do, bring about perpetual jihad from the (sister-fucking) Arabs against America."
Now, he said this while drinking an unimaginably large and strong drink of scotch but I think the main point can be considered well made.
I never mentioned Jews at all, I merely (fairly loudly) told my wife that I could not believe that the NYTimes could actually print this particular editorial (I think it was by Safire, who I like in some ways) and claim even a shred of authority as an unbiased newspaper.
Boom, there came the Jews comment. Not a hint of shame about it, it's simply a "fact", you know. I should say (and I've said before) that people tend to feel quite comfortable making such comments to me, whether antisemitic or racist or even xenophobic (the last because I'm one of the "good" immigrants).
I'll be honest, but I am afraid you may use this later in a way I don't like. Remember when you said you thought Jews were manipulating the Holocaust and monopolizing victimhood, etc.? In retrospect, that was the prelude for a lot of extremely annoying Israel and Jew bashing by you in the weeks that followed. It's like you come up with a thesis, then you ask for approval, and if you think you get the approval, you go overboard. But hey, it's only a cyberdebate.
Jews most definitely have tremendous influence over the media in the US, but not only the media. Their influence is disproportionate in virtually all spheres: economy, politics, literature, science, the arts, pornography, scams, you name it. As you noted, sometimes their influence is towards the right, sometimes towards the left, sometimes liberal, sometimes conservative. But this is not to say there is no main stream to this influence: there is, and it has traditionally been both a liberal and a pro-Israeli one, I daresay.
I think the Times' coverage of the Middle East is quite okay, but that's not surprising, is it. There are Jewish columnists like that Larry guy who wrote the hilarious article linked a few days ago, but there are also quite a lot of Jews like that Sonntag, Sonnentag woman (I think she's Jewish) who could syndicate their columns in the Iraqi Ba'ath party monthly if they wanted to.
The one place where Jewish influence seems to me to be somewhat unfair, perhaps, is Hollywood, and the entertainment world as a whole. I think Brando was at least partly right in what he said back then, that you see Italians and blacks stereotypically portrayed, but you don't see Jews stereotypically portrayed in Hollywood films. I'm not sure about that, but it's a thought I have. You sure see a lot of movies with bad Arabs in them, but the Arabs bring that upon themselves.
You are getting the New York Times confused with the LA Times.
You consistently confuse 'immoral' with 'not good for my interests'. But you're not the only one who does that.
If I am your brother and I call the cops on the neighborhood drug dealer and then you could have a problem with the dealer as a result of that - that does not make my act immoral. You see? And if you dissociate yourself from me on that account - that makes you immoral, not me.
First let me say that there is no connection in my mind between the conversation we had about Solzhenitsyn and the purported singularity of Jewish suffering and my comments which came after. I was working out in my mind if I believed in that singularity, which in some circles is an article of faith - and the answer came that I do not. I further mused that I see Jews in the context of outstanding success not only outstanding suffering, but it is somehow found convenient by mostly the same circles to harp on the suffering not the success. I find this mystifying, though can understand the expediency involved
Now, I don't know about "disproportionate". To me it reeks of bean-counting, at least in terms of demographics. If you look at the elite American universities, they've had huge percentages of Jewish students over the past 50-60-70 years. To my mind achievement in this country is largely a by-product of education so the Jewish achievement in all spheres is to be expected, and in fact is not disproportionate to the elite university graduate numbers.
Further, I find myself always uneasy when this "disproportionate" claim is made because the next step will logically be to look at other ethnic groups "disproportionately" represented in arenas of achievement and the finger will naturally soon point to my own ethnic group in the US (Indians have the highest per family income of any ethnic group in the US including Jews) where we already show signs of dominating certain sectors of the economy despite small numbers (just 1.7 million right now).
You probably have something of a point about Hollywood, but i see the moviemaking business as primarily (more than other media) about raw dollar figures. If there was money to be made by portraying Jews as Shylocks, most of the Jews in Hollywood would probably make such movies starting tomorrow.
I have no idea what your #9142 is meant to rebut or clear up in my comments. I very rarely resort to considerations of morality in analysis of international affairs, it generally has no part to play.
But yes, my primary concern is always about how events (even faraway events) impact me and mine.
Israel does have certain moral rights, including that to defend itself fully in whatever way it needs to. I just don't want the US associated with it at all. As the Saudi spokesperson said in that piece (though in another context)in today's NYT, there has come a point where national interests have bifurcated. Israel's interest is not American interest at all, and the dishonesty of those who would claim it is is readily apparent.
The interests are largely aligned, though they sometimes clash at the margins. It is a pipe dream that there is no shared interest, though the allegation is probably not dishonest so much as ignorant.
Sir,
As your editorial suggests, Ariel Sharon appears set to betray the hopes of all of us who believed that Operation Defensive Shield could be the best option Israel had for ultimately reaching a settlement with the Palestinians.
What is difficult to gauge from abroad is how the Israeli electorate feels about the Prime Minister's hijacking of Israel's legitimate war against terror to transform it into an excuse to avoid a political solution and kowtow to the settler movement. This might be understandable were Israel not now in a position of unusual (but transient) strategic strength relative to the Palestinians. Sharon now seems determined to waste the advantage he has purchased at a price of tens of dead Israeli soldiers and enough Palestinians to have honed to razor-sharpness the world's thirst for despising Jews. The cost has been high; will we now get nothing for it?
It is difficult to believe that the fact that the leader of the NRP now sits in Sharon's cabinet has nothing to do with his about face. Who is running the country? Will rationalist Israel stand up to its radicals and religious extremists before or after Zion has been transformed into a Jewish version of Iran?
Andonly
NJ, USA
Cutural similarities? What the hell are you talking about? Kindly examine Israels marriage laws, or its resistance to all but Jewish immigration, or its overt religiosity. It's a religious state, are you aware?Democratic attitudes? There are millions of people born under Israeli rule who don't have the vote. Familial ties? You're an ass. Significant Jewish presence in America? There are some 25 million Arab-descended Americans - far outnumbering American Jews.
Inextricably intertwined my ass. You could have said the same with better reason about Germany and the US pre WWII or (more shakily) Russia and the US before the Cold War. The only countries inextricably intertwined with the US are probably Canada and Mexico, and that's a function of geography.
I do not deny that there are close alignments with Israel, which can be evaluated on their own terms without desperate hyperbole. But Israel's interests as delineated by the Sharonists (or even, here, by Spike) do not coincide with American interests at all. To wit, it is not in the American interest to deny the Palestinians a state, to destabilize the Hashemites, to maintain an occupation of the WB and Gaza, to consistently flout international law and repeated UN resolutions, etc. Etc.
You're quite an incompetently dishonest puppy, sexlawyer.
Is this a joke? (I ask in all seriousness.)
Israel's actions in the WB and Gaza may be morally bankrupt, I'm not excessively concerned except when I see that their impact negatively affects the way I (and other Americans) have to live life.
There are many issues around the world which have more dramatic morality-based appeal to me than Israel's occupation. The criminal destruction of Tibet comes to mind, the India/Pakistan impasse that is ruining Kashmir is another. But neither particularly affect my life while the Israel situation does, in an increasingly worrisome manner.
Cutural similarities? What the hell are you talking about? Kindly examine Israels marriage laws, or its resistance to all but Jewish immigration, or its overt religiosity. It's a religious state, are you aware?
So what, dumbass. From what I hear from you, so is the United States. Much as you'd like to separate israel from the United States and make it, oh, like Saudi Arabia, Israel isn't beheading homosexuals and rabid Israelis aren't ramming planes in our buildings. The alignment is not a mirror-image, jackass. But compared to the Arab world . . . hoo boy. You've been dropped on your head.
Democratic attitudes? There are millions of people born under Israeli rule who don't have the vote.
It's a democracy, retard. Ask Ehud or Bibi.
Familial ties? You're an ass. Significant Jewish presence in America? There are some 25 million Arab-descended Americans -far outnumbering American Jews.
Are you serious? You strike the balance between one discrete nation and "Arab-descended Americans"? I might as well argue that we have a greater tie to Africa. Fact is, Chumley, the familial ties are significant because Israel is a cultured and advanced proxy and is thus valued greatly by American Jews and non-Jews alike. Maybe we have a lot of folks that hale from the Arab world, but most are here because they probably didn't want to get beaten for looking at a Playboy or have their daughters forced back into burning buildings. Or maybe they just got fed up with that Israeli pudding made of the blood of Muslims.
You're a moke. But I agree about Mexico and Canada.
I do not deny that there are close alignments with Israel, which can be evaluated on their own terms without desperate hyperbole. But Israel's interests as delineated by the Sharonists (or even, here, by Spike) do not coincide with American interests at all. To wit, it is not in the American interest to deny the Palestinians a state, to destabilize the Hashemites, to maintain an occupation of the WB and Gaza, to consistently flout international law and repeated UN resolutions, etc. Etc.
Ha ha ha ha. All that bluff and bluster, and in the end, an admission of close alignment.
I agree that Israeli and American interests are not always synonymous, dickhead, but that is such an infantile proposition that I'm stunned it had to be forwarded.
Your Israel and the United States are as linked as Iran and the United States is laughable on its face, you tea-sipping, faux sophisticate.
To wit, it is not in the American interest to deny the Palestinians a state, to destabilize the Hashemites, to maintain an occupation of the WB and Gaza, to consistently flout international law and repeated UN resolutions, etc. Etc.
At this point in time, all you cite is damn sure in our interests.
Our interests are regional stalemate.
To go further and attempt to sort through it would be counter-productive, not to mention boring.
Moving on --
Dennis Ross Sets the Record Straight
I suppose the smuggled arms from Iran were for the Authority to crack down on Hamas. Brilliant.
The terrorist organization Hamas is largely an Israeli creation.
Ah. And the Sauds who knocked down the WTC were . . . Israeli agents!
The author cites "Israel's support for Hamas" yet manages to pen an entire article without one shred of proof of such support.
His best shot: In their 1989 book, Intifada, Ze’ev Schiff and Ehud Ya’ari write that Fatah "suspected the Israelis of a plot first to let Hamas gather strength and then to unleash it against the PLO, turning the uprising into a civil war... [M]any Israeli staff officers believed that the rise of fundamentalism in Gaza could be exploited to weaken the power of the PLO…"
Jesus, ronski. We've got marj. Don't pile it on.
It is Better to be Feared than Loved
I remember when banks predicted that our moves in Afghanistan would leave the streets of pakistan rivers of blood. I remember when pseudo was cocksure Pakistan would not copperate.
But Musharraf had a choice, and he came to Jesus. Deal with Iraq on its own merits, and see where the rest of the Arab world goes.
I guarantee that the moderate leadership with mow down the psychotic masses they've been stoking in filth. Why? Because if they don't, they'll lose the pretty French women and their Havana cigars.
All the more reason for us to either force a settlement, or wash our hands of the place. Or better yet, both, in that order.
The last thing we need is a simmering stalemate that we are mixed up in, forever. Ever-improving technology and ever-angrier terrorists do not allow us such a luxury.
With all due respect, it needs to be said that marjoribanks is a fucking idiot and thoroughgoing bigot on the matter who doesn't know enough to avoid parading his ignorance: in this case, the last phrase of the excerpt above is particularly erroneous concoction of marj's diseased imagination and egregiously insulting to boot.
Many conservatives, particularly of the neocon variety, are in all probability, less religious than marj himself is and, iac, support for Israel in Congress is quite bipartisan. Marj also clearly does not comprehend the significant differences, or even seem to be aware of the existence of differences in beliefs of various protestant denominations, and, correspondingly, should curtail his incontinent wholesale accusations relating to 'conservatives' until he gains at least a minimal understanding of such.
We cannot wash our hands of the place, for the reasons I have set forth. We haven't even discussed the geopolitical precedent.
As of now, a simmering stalemate is our only option.
Unless you favor, as I might be inclined to, a two-state option based on some deal and backed by 100,000 NATO/UN force on the borders.
Of course, within months, we'd learn that it isn't about sovereignty or land or right-of-return.
It's about Jew-killing. And to get to the Jews, the psychotics would first blow up some Belgians, some French, some Dutch and some Americans.
The US can't. The US symbolizes to those whack jobs everything that they want to take from everyone. To simply walk away will mean that we'll have to take hits more often IMO.
ever-angrier terrorists do not allow us such a luxury.
I think your premise is flawed. For terrorists, bloodlust and anger are natural states. If there is no tangible reason to terrorize, one will be manufactured, at $25,000 a pop.
We should pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia.
We can keep a base in Qatar. I can live with that.
marj -
What JC posts is clearly preferable to your grossly ignorant and wild-eyed hatchet jobs on US political conservatives. You really are quite the moron when you criticize the US RW on religious grounds.
You obviously are not familiar with what motivates most terrorists.
Who is next? Why not Taiwan? South Korea? Whya are we in multi-national forces in the former Yugoslavia?
All these operations place us at risk.
But to abdicate our ties to these nations and/or efforts because involvement may engender violence against us is
a) a very dangerous precedent, and
b) based on the faulty premise that by mollifying radical elements, they will become less radical.
I am unaware of any historical precedent where giving in did not energize aggressive elements.
At a minimum, when you do give in, you make damn sure you went to the mat.
Ignorance and hatred motivate terrorists.
If you want to negotiate with that, or set policy based on placating animals, that's your beef.
Thankfully, at present, your view is only popular in Europe.
Hmmmmm.
Seamstress or suicide bomber?
What is the dental?
But our presence in more than a hundred countries around the world is unsustainable. We are making far too many enemies, and putting ourselves and our resources at too great a risk.
Pacifying the world is not the same as pacifying Germany, Japan, and Italy after WW2. That we could do.
Policing the entire world, we can't.
I'm the last person suggesting Pax Americana, with a finger in every pie. But our present engagements are not only in our interests, but they contribute to world stability.
As for Israel, cutting and running is not an option, for the reasons I've stated.
Moreover, as zojak points out, cutting and running there is excatly the kind of incentive that will encourage more terrorism - not less. What a symbol. Suicide bomb Israel, invite retaliation, and destabilize Israel's strongest alliance.
Among the very many things that the incompetent sexlawyer is ignorant of are the freedom struggles of a whole slew of nations.
And make no mistake, the fundamental nature of the Palestinian struggle is that of a quest for independence, and end of occupation. In the very great majority of such cases, the occupier eventually has had to concede independence. Perhaps the incompetent sexlawyer knows of some historical examples, perhaps even one or two close to home.
In the case of Palestine, this 'War on Terror' has been both a disservice and a service. The disservice comes because the Sharonists (and a slightly-frightened of domestic poltical fallout US admin) have projected the idea that Palestinians are fighting a terror war not a war for independence. But who buys that argument? Who even half-way believes it other than a relative minority of screaming ideologues and the easily duped?
The Pals have shady leadership, and a terrible propensity to make the worst choice from those available. But they have a legitimate cause, and a legitimate right to fight for it, and they will get their state in the end. The tragedy is that it will come at a far more bloody price than anyone needs, and American interests (which lie in them getting a state with minimum fuss) will be sorely trampled on in the process.
Only an outright fool or a Lefty would buy into a deal like that.
Or Hamas?
We saw how pathetically invalid those arguments were in the years following, and how terrible the cost is/was for nations that actually lived by such empty rhetoric (witness the Algerian disaster).
Perhaps that all conclusions he draws that are affected by such deliberate ignorance should be ignored would be a good starting point.
Modesty, not ignorant harassment, should be marjoribanks' strong suit. After all, he has much to be modest about.
You just can't resist me, you big, fruity lug.
The Pals have shady leadership, and a terrible propensity to make the worst choice from those available
This is akin to saying that the Hutus were "poorly advised".
66% of the "Pals" make the bad choice to support suicide bombings.
They are people, marj. Not sheep.
Now I find my attention drawn to them, though extremely piece-meal, because they repeatedly contain the beautiful word 'marjoribanks' in them.
I request the cartoonishly stupid right wing lunatic to cease using this fine and upstanding name because it hurts to have it surrounded by meaningless gibberish particularly when, on the same page, it is followed and surrounded by its owners self-generated peerless and jewel-like prose.
Then, we leave.
I suppose one could argue that Reagan's pulling us out of Lebanon after the killing of our soldiers emboldened radical Islam to ratchet up terror against the West perceiving its growing bourgeois weakness, but I'd consider that argument foolish.
95% of Jews in British Mandate Palestine supported bombs in civilian hotels, seeing them as a blow for Zionism.
100% of marjoribanks thinks the sexlawyer needs a few history lessons.
Admit it. You love me, you dolt.
ronski
I wouldn't. We scurried away while firing impotent shells at the mountains.
Hisham Melhem, who correctly points out that we were probably in error by being in Lebanon, also comments on the withdrawal:
Q. The battleship New Jersey shelling after the Beirut incident was an answer that the Reagan administration came up with. What did they perceive this might accomplish? But more importantly, how was this perceived?
"Ironically, it was perceived as an impotent gesture, as an impotent act. When I saw the New Jersey firing against those mountains that have existed there since time immemorial, I remember a passage in Joseph Conrad's The Heart of Darkness, when on his way to Africa he sees a British ship firing at certain positions of certain rebels there. And the way he describes it is the following: "And there she was firing at the continent."
Just to bring out the irony of it, this tiny ship firing at the continent. It was an act of absolute impotence. The New Jersey did not scare anybody. It did not scare those people in the mountains. And that is ironic. And that's why it didn't work out. And that's why later the Americans had to re-deploy and withdraw."
I agree that if you leave, you leave on an up note, not while folks are clamoring for the last helicopter out.
95% of your readers realize your an idiot.
But I don't believe the polls.
You make any deal you want with those poor, misguided, poor choice-making suicide bombers.
I'm sure they'll leave you be.
As I said months ago, let us call the Palestinians' bluff. If they turn their new country into a rogue state threatening Israel and the West, flatten them and drive them into Jordan. They will have asked for it.
I'm with you. But I don't make that deal if I'm Israel unless the international smart set is willing to put its youth on the front.
And you are wrong. Accepting the state brings the dangerous West into play, and those damn Jews - they just won't ever leave.
It's not like Hamas will be supplanted by the Boy Scouts.
Have a cup of tea and a scone. Maybe buy a pillow or tweeze your eyebrows. You love me. We get it.
Ha ha ha ha ha. Good one.
Two, actually, if you count Max's stage play in Rushmore.
Don't let me down.
However, I do wonder how long it is before the truth of this Pearl case makes its way into American mainstream opinion. That the kidnapper (who went to my college in the UK briefly) was intimately involved with both the ISI agency of the Pak government and the 9/11 hijackers - to the point of wiring Mohammed Atta a hundred grand.
Musharraf has said, reportedly, that he'd be willing to execute the kidnapper himself rather than see him extradited.
Not the Battle of Britain Churchill, but the faded , sottish and hysterical comments about resisting appeasement and unwillingness to withdraw from colonies which met with nothing but ridicule, and precipitated the fat old man's ignominious removal from office.
Sure hope nobody's dead and terrorists aren't responsible, or thinks will heat up fast...
Margarinespanks is largely deranged, as usual, and projecting, as usual.
By Oriana Fallaci April 17, 2002
(Unofficial translation not approved by the author. Originally published in Italian in Panorama magazine.)
I find it shameful that in Italy there should be a procession of individuals dressed as suicide bombers who spew vile abuse at Israel, hold up photographs of Israeli leaders on whose foreheads they have drawn the swasitka, incite people to hate the Jews. And who, in order to see Jews once again in the extermination camps, in the gas chambers, in the ovens of Dachau and Mauthausen and Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen et cetera, would sell their own mother to a harem.
I find it shameful that the Catholic Church should permit a bishop, one with lodgings in the Vatican no less, a saintly man who was found in Jerusalem with an arsenal of arms and explosives hidden in the secret compartments of his sacred Mercedes, to participate in that procession and plant himself in front of a microphone to thank in the name of God the suicide bombers who massacre the Jews in pizzerias and supermarkets. To call them “martyrs who go to their deaths as to a party.”
I find it shameful (we’re back in Italy) that state-run television stations contribute to the resurgent antisemitism, crying only over Palestinian deaths while playing down Israeli deaths, glossing over them in unwilling tones. I find it shameful that in their debates they host with much deference the scoundrels with turban or kaffiah who yesterday sang hymns to the slaughter at New York and today sing hymns to the slaughters at Jerusalem, at Haifa, at Netanya, at Tel Aviv.
I find it shameful and see in all this the rise of a new fascism, a new nazism. A fascism, a nazism, that much more grim and revolting because it is conducted and nourished by those who hypocritically pose as do-gooders, progressives, communists, pacifists, Catholics or rather Christians, and who have the gall to label a warmonger anyone like me who screams the truth.
"You are attracted by me."
"You are fascinated by me."
"You love me."
I am indeed fascinated that one who knows so little about something can post so much about it. It is one of the downsides of the net that even the most ignorant can cull it for opinion pieces that fit their own prejudices and then regurgigate them as their own.
But of course the fundamental ignorance is evident for anyone who knows anything. Like that ridiculous piece that claims a direct casual relation between New Jersey's shelling if Mount Lebanon and the American pull-out from Lebanon.
(BTW, I saw New Jersey at the time. She was not a "tiny ship" but a heavy, menacing presence, as she was meant to be. But then poor Julius knows nothing about the American landing on the beaches of Lebanon in the 50s).
didn't you intended to write: Sure hope somebody's dead and terrorists are responsible, things will heat up fast...
this country has seen more terrorist attacks by pro-lifers than radical "muslims". If a building blows up in your neighborhood or you receive Anthrax in the mail I give ya 10 to 1 odds that it's done by right to lifers...anyway, the explosion looks to be a faulty boiler not terrorists of the Muslim or Right to Life kind, so stop cheering in anticipation of further blood shed.
marjoribanks -
How about this? You stop masturbating online about Israel with your embarrassingly wrong pronouncements, in which the certitude is inversely proportional to the accuracy, and I'll continue to post precisely what I please.
I think that's more than fair to you and other other Motiers in general.
Btw, I'm easily more intelligent than you. Don't you forget that, you puerile mediocrity.
So I take it you're objecting to Betty's substitution of frequency of attacks for deadliness? After all the abortion clinic bombers have ever taken only a scant few lives.
there was no substitution of anything in my post, I was only and clearly talking about frequency, and though abortion bombers and right to life terrorists have taken "only a scant few lives" it's not for lack of trying.
No, bitch, I didn't.
"this country has seen more terrorist attacks by pro-lifers than radical "muslims"."
"More," huh? How meaningful.
But since I said "terrorists", not "Muslims," it seems awfully odd that you impute the specification "muslims" to me. Do you read what other people actually write, or only what you want to see?
"If a building blows up in your neighborhood or you receive Anthrax in the mail I give ya 10 to 1 odds that it's done by right to lifers..."
Well, then in that case I guess I should root for terror next time, because I'd like to collect a nicely remodelled kitchen off your crappy wager.
"anyway, the explosion looks to be a faulty boiler not terrorists of the Muslim or Right to Life kind"
The news is that the boiler theory is unofficial; there's some question about some chemicals found in the building; but yes, fortunately, it does not look like terror.
"so stop cheering in anticipation of further blood shed."
How about you go fuck yourself? I guarantee it'll be more fun for you than attempting to fuck me over online using your 2 1/2-inch intellect.
yer so tough and so smart you really intimidate me. 2 1/2 inch intellect...what exactly does that mean? it seems like a nonsensical expression devoid of meaning, but perhaps you could explain it to stupid ol' me.
But since I said "terrorists", not "Muslims," it seems awfully odd that you impute the specification "muslims" to me.
but darling, isn't that what you meant when you wrote "thinks will heat up fast"...or was this some clever pun on the theory that it was boiler related? "thinks will heat up fast"...sure does sound like you were alluding to previous terrorist attacks on NYC buildings and some situation that could "heat up fast".
I doubt like hell you had an image of lily white slack jawed yokels in your head. Or did you imagine Cletus and my personal prejudices are surfacing? Speak up, and be honest, did you have right to lifers in mind? Or did you have dirty fanatical Arabs who were too stupid to reason with in your head?
andonly, I regularly fuck my self and I have to say it is frequently an extremely satisfying experience which results in a smug smile and a spring in my step, but thank you for the recommendation, I'll think of you tonight.
Well its far too complex to explain to a mental castrata. Meditate, it may come to you in a dream, as most of your thoughts apparently do.
"but darling, isn't that what you meant when you wrote "thinks will heat up fast"...or was this some clever pun on the theory that it was boiler related? "thinks will heat up fast"...sure does sound like you were alluding to previous terrorist attacks on NYC buildings and some situation that could "heat up fast"."
Are you for real, or are you just an adolescent?
To this day, no one knows or will admit who sent anthrax packages to Congressmen et al. In all likelihood it was a lone nutcase scientist who had nothing significant to do with Islam, Iraq, or (of all things, your obsession) pro-lifers. And yet this country is preparing to go to war with Iraq ostensibly because of its propensity to transfer biological weaponry to terrorists. What has the public got in mind as Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz make plans? Those anthrax cases. Fear of imminent doom becomes zeitgeist, and voila, we have justification, whether or not the time is right or anthrax attacks were actually connected to Iraq.
So what do you think would happen in the mideast if we had another terror attack here just now that the House of Saud is coming to College Station to attempt to pressure our monkey in chief to make Ariel Sharon talk settlement?
If you want to pretend the greatest threat to the nation's stability right now is the anti-choice crowd, that's your astigmatic problem. But I have given you no call to impute racist sentiments to me.
"I doubt like hell you had an image of lily white slack jawed yokels in your head. Or did you imagine Cletus and my personal prejudices are surfacing? Speak up, and be honest, did you have right to lifers in mind?"
No, and no one sane worries about them much.
Where lily white slack-jawed yokels are concerned, I rarely think about my distaff relatives. But who the fuck is Cletus, and why should I spend even a moment thinking about right to lifers, who have not managed to bomb anything lately?
"Or did you have dirty fanatical Arabs who were too stupid to reason with in your head?"
Be honest yourself, Betty. Don't you mean, "...dirty fanatical Arabs who were too stupid to reason with in your head, you race suprematist Jew?"
That's where all this lowbrow high dudgeon comes from, doesn't it, Betty? But I defy you to find where I've ever characterized Arabs the way you believe the Collective Jew must see them. Try again.
"andonly, I regularly fuck my self and I have to say it is frequently an extremely satisfying experience which results in a smug smile and a spring in my step, but thank you for the recommendation, I'll think of you tonight."
Congratulations on being able to achieve orgasm, it's as great an accomplishment as you can imagine, I'm sure. I'm always pleased to have another unrequited female bisexul notch in my belt.
(Brava on your letter, Andonly.)
This whole situation must be even more unjust and horrible than I'd realized.
We'll have to test you, RP. I, of course, was born to be a Reverend Mother.
Boy, you got that right, MG.
But I always thought Frank Herbert sort of wished he'd been Lawrence.
This is a pretty interesting concept.
Henceforth there will be two immigration organizations, one overseeing immigration approval and enforcement and the other providing social services to legal immigrants. Oversight of at least the enforcement org (or maybe both? I didn't hear) will be the responsibility of a new post, the "associate" attorney general, or something like that.
Interesting, and only a few years after Stooge Reno used the INS to railroad Elian back to Cuba.
In Rome, the only people treated worse than the Arabs are the Gypsies.
Well its far too complex to explain to a mental castrata.
Just try. Yer a smart woman, I'm sure you can find a creative way of explaining this concept of physical measurement of intelligence...does it relate to phrenology?
Be honest yourself, Betty. Don't you mean, "...dirty fanatical Arabs who were too stupid to reason with in your head, you race suprematist Jew?"
You'll find, andonly, that I am honest and willing to expose myself in an unreasonable way for real discourse. I can honestly say that "race supremacist Jew" never crossed my mind. Mostly I see you as an over-educated apologist for a nation with serious human rights abuses to address. and more important than that, I see you as less than honest, perhaps because you rarely post on any other thread and I have come to see your posts here as some sort of meaningless lobbying. It makes you less authentic and difficult to assign complexity...of course this could just be the result of my intellectual deficiencies.
do I have anti-semitic tendencies? most probably, but I work on those daily, and my comments were not intentionally rooted in such notions. It is good to acknowledge and deal with these prejudices, but I don't think that they are insurmountable obstacles in dialogue.
I'm feeling cranky and my kid is done watching her movie...We can discuss this some other time.
do I have anti-semitic tendencies? most probably, but I work on those daily,
Could you describe what you see in your mind when you think of the word 'Jew'? I mean really, like stream-of-consciousness almost. What is a Jew to you, I wonder?
I'm asking because it's really important to me: I really want to know what we look like from the outside.
kwisatz haderach, like some other Duneisms, is apparently slightly modified Hebrew. Kfitzat means 'the jump', 'the skip', and haderech means 'the road'. Together they could mean something like 'a leap in the road'. Or someone may have been thinking of the phrase pritzat haderech, which means 'the breakthrough'.
I don't remember the plot of Dune that well, but it was pretty messianic, wasn't it?
To some extent, I regard the existence of Israel as a stick in expansionist Fundamantalist Islam's eye, and worthy of support on that basis alone.
Precisely. And I'd wager my entire personal fortune that this was one of the concepts discussed in the meetings between Chaim Weitzmann and Arthur Balfour before Balfour issued his famous declaration in 1917.
If there was any doubt what purpose Israel was expected to serve, look at the use that was made of it, by Britain and France, eight years after it was founded. That was pretty transparent.
We are, as JC would put it, your tool. We are the six-shooter in your holster. We are the six-pack in your fridge. Problem is, this golem may have started to get a mind of its own. Golems have been known to do that, you know.
Ever get around to Riddley Walker?
You should not answer that question, betty. Back out of the tread now.
Huh?
Who, us?
Guard?
Women suck men's cocks.
No, if you reconsider my insult you'll see it relates to the average length of the traditional tool by which one gets fucked. That would be six to seven inches. Yours, were it an intellectual instrument, would be less than half that. Understand now?
"I can honestly say that "race supremacist Jew" never crossed my mind."
That's understandable, given you are only semi-conscious.
"do I have anti-semitic tendencies? most probably, but I work on those daily, and my comments were not intentionally rooted in such notions."
Oh, jeez. That's nice, but I really don't spend any time at all contemplating whether your "antisemitic tendencies" are recognizable to you, or how dutifully you "work on" them. I am uninterested in your self-improvement program, I don't care how good you want to be. As far as I'm concerned, you're just another chick who's got a problem with Jews, among other things which concern me even less.
If I cared more for the opportunity to flex my hideous Jewish talons I'd have ripped you a new one back when you were credulously redistributing Suha Arafat's lies about Jews poisoning the water, or more recently, when you leapt to Sakonige's "defense" against a charge she herself has born like a standard for four or five years now. I understand you had hopes of showing how Jewish "apologists" damn with vile labels those we can't stand to hear speak the noble truth about that most dreadful of human rights sinks, Israel.
But frankly, your antipathies and your inferiority complex are your problems. If you get over them on your own, mazel tov. If not, mach shabbes. It's not my job on earth to prove to you that Jews are really tolerable after all.
It has never even occurred to me before to wonder what you think of me, and nothing you have yet said suggests that you are awake enough for me to care.
"of course this could just be the result of my intellectual deficiencies."
That, or your intellectual laziness.
"do I have anti-semitic tendencies? most probably, but I work on those daily, and my comments were not intentionally rooted in such notions."
Yawn. Find a helping professional. I'm not your shrink, nor your confessor.
"It is good to acknowledge and deal with these prejudices, but I don't think that they are insurmountable obstacles in dialogue."
"It is good," is it?
My dear, your notion of "dialogue" apparently consists in throwing about unsubstantiated accusations and making idiotic comparisons about things you don't seem to comprehend. That makes most conversation with you insurmountable from the git-go. Ordinarily, I scarcely bother to respond to you on any serious subject, but your inexcusably stupid and unprovoked insinuations warranted a remark.
I would ask how the fuck you got from my hope that an explosion in NY was not a terrorist attack, to guessing the subtext of my passing comment was full of "dirty Arabs," but the answer is not hard to discern. You do not bother to read or understand what anyone here says. You can't follow a line of reasoning that does not conform to a set of notions left over in your mind from childhood. Nor can you respond to what you do read except to post banalities and sophomoric tripe laced with ad hominems.
"We can discuss this some other time."
You can discuss it with yourself.
Oh, come on.
I have a considerable personal misfortune.
You're correct about the meaning of Kwisatz Haderach; it means shortening of the way - the leap that would lead to the male Bene Gesserit whose mind would be able to bridge space and time. With Dune, Herbert both explored and exploded the 'myth of the messiah,' as he called it.
I did read Riddley Walker; it was outstanding. Right now I'm re-reading all of Asimov's Foundation books, which I love.
I know you didn't ask me, but when I hear the word 'Jew,' I think of Asimov and Einstein and Freud and a host of others whose talents have had a huge impact on the world. I feel tremendous regret for the long years of persecution on the part of my co-religionists and horror at the Holocaust. I also think of one of my favorite places here, Leonard's Kosher Deli.
Seriously.
Not a good idea to show your face or your address to anyone on this website if you are not sympathetic to the Zionist cause.
You're crazier than I thought.
But you're right: how many English-speaking people named Betty (if that's her name) are there out there?
Either way, let's see your rationale.
The bit about Israel creating the Hamas is true, from what I know. Don't expect an occupying power to be particularly sage about what it does. It's not a lot dumber than the way the US helped create Saddam Hussein though. Hamas didn't start out as a violent organization though.
Sakonige is trying to scare Betty into thinking that because I have her name and address (I sent her some curry powder to try), I might attempt to do something rotten to her.
Betty doesn't have to worry about that sort of thing from me--after all, she has my address, too, which I don't normally share with people I mean to harm.
Eh, never mind. I think I've already seen enough of your hairy rationale to last me a while.
Just wait till I show you my Balfour.
What makes you think Balfour and Weitzmann weren't asking themselves what the result of the creation of 20 independent Muslim-Arab nation-states would be? Islam was not a completely unknown quantity, you know, and these were not two particularly stupid people.
The sensitivity exercise isnt as funny as Miller's, but then again he's a pro and I'm just a satirist part-time.
As for ahistorical-I'll grant you that I doubt that there was much dancing in the streets over Arab deaths amoung the Israelis even in '48. There are many other gaps in the paralell, not the least of which is that Israel is a democratic society, while no nation of import in the opposition is.
However there are a few comparisons which are noteworthty, and the leading one is the argument that there has never been a Palesinian state/Palestinians. Until '48 the same thing could be said of Israel. Israel as a nation was a thing of ancient history, and the Palestinians could make as much a claim to be the decendents of neighboring nations to that state as modern Jews could make to being Israelis.
Israel is the Jewish state, Jones. Or are you saying the Jewish people is a new creation too?
The People of Israel are one of the oldest nations on this earth, if not the oldest (I'm not sure 'China' or 'India' were national entities two thousand years ago. Judea was.) The Palestinian nation is as old as I am. We're 4,000 years old, they're 40.
A little respect, as they say.
What should we conclude about his other turgid bloviations?
Are bloviations what happens to women once a month?
Crazy creatures.
Gotta love 'em.
Sakko stood up on her hind legs when I (not you) asked betty a very unthreatening question (and one that I have no doubt betty will not find threatening either).
It's something about that question that sakko finds threatening, if you ask me. It's not any concern she may have about anthrax spores in the spices you send betty.
I find nothing frightening, threatening or in any way sinister about your question...I'll be happy to answer as long as we are both willing to be honest and not get terribly offended or defensive.
do you mind if I send it to you via e-mail?
do you mind if I send it to you via e-mail?
Well, no, but why? Isn't there at least some part of it you can share with us? I mean, you seem to be a person reasonably in touch with herself, whatever you feel, whatever image you have of Jewish people, it's OK with me. I have mixed race children and I readily admit that it took me years to get rid of a lot of my prejudices, and I still may not have gotten rid of all of them.
We're all born racist, almost all of us at least. Deracisting ourselves is a daily struggle.
McConnell was bloviating too?
Is this one of those biological things like, when one girl in the class starts bloviating, suddenly all the others start bloviating at the same time?
I got those spores mail-order from Sakko herself, you know, in whose hands they were planted by the Mossad.
But these particular germs are specially weaponized to produce an unusual effect in the victim. Instead of catching a hacking cold and then perishing from the effects of microbial toxicity, the patient develops an allergy to Israel-bashing and recognizes that Yasir Arafat is about as committed to peace as a mouth tumor.
because I'm willing to be honest with you, I know that you appreciate it, but andonly seems to feel that honesty is in some way irrelevant, i don't want to burden her with having to scroll past my "2 1/2 inch intellect" infested posts.
I also note that Rustler--whose politics I abhor--but whose knowledge of the nooks and crannies of Israeli policy is immense, has supported, more strongly than I would have, the contention that Hamas was initially encouraged by Israel as an alternative to the PLO. JC would do well to examine sources other than the Standard, before pooh-poohing anything that doesn't fit his mindset.
For the militants and fundamentalists in Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and no doubt in many of the security and paramilitary organizations of the Palestinian Authority, Israel is the cutting edge of liberal Western civilization. It's America's base camp in the Muslim umma, the social, religious, and geographic sphere of Muslim sovereignty, where non-Muslims must be subordinated to a Muslim-controlled political system.
(...)
American and European liberals may loathe Sharon, who is a rampaging, politically incorrect expression of realpolitik, but his antagonists in the Middle East fear him. What they do not fear, and what has been the font of the militants' hopes, is the Israel under Prime Minister Ehud Barak that precipitously withdrew from Lebanon in the summer of 2000 and attempted through concessions to grasp permanent peace treaties with Syria and Arafat. What they do not fear is the America that ran from Beirut truck-bombs in 1983 and from rocket-propelled grenades in Mogadishu in 1993.
Precisely. My emphasis.
Tell you what, I explicitly forbid anyone but me to be offended by or in any way react to your posts on the subject, without your express permission.
This means unless you specifically say you are interested in Ando's reaction to your posts on this specific subject, I will not allow her to react to them, now or in the future.
I can't control what she says in other threads, but you yourself noted she doesn't frequent too many other threads (is this true?).
This is sort of like the rule the shrink laid down when she was talking to my kids in my presence: no talking about anything we said here outside the room.
if you want to make psychological diagnosis please get it right. I suffer from many things but an inferiority complex is not amongst them...If you'd like, I can put you in touch with my therapist and the two of you can discuss the nuances of my psychological problems which are numerous and varied.
I am indeed fascinated that one who knows so little about something can post so much about it. It is one of the downsides of the net that even the most ignorant can cull it for opinion pieces that fit their own prejudices and then regurgigate them as their own. But of course the fundamental ignorance is evident for anyone who knows anything. Like that ridiculous piece that claims a direct casual (sic) relation between New Jersey's shelling if (sic) Mount Lebanon and the American pull-out from Lebanon.
You promise what you cannot give. Again, you address me.
As for the "piece", it was a quote, you misread it (as it claims nothing of the sort), you're so lazy that you didn't even bother to maybe read up on the source, and again, you offer nothing but your claim that you are not fundamentally ignorant.
At some point, maybe in the next 5 years, you can demonstrate that fact. Instead, you're all hints about stuff having nothing to with nothing, like (BTW, I saw New Jersey at the time. She was not a "tiny ship" but a heavy, menacing presence, as she was meant to be. But then poor Julius knows nothing about the American landing on the beaches of Lebanon in the 50s).
I'm happy for you.
I'll give that much to marj - at least he's smart and his zingers zing; the sotted Churchill stuff was good.
I think Israelis are a lot less defensive about antisemitism than non-Israeli Jews. We actually profit from antisemitism, a lot of the time: antisemitism in Russia brought us a million Jews last decade. The Mossad is said to have encouraged antisemitism in Iraq in order to spur immigration in the 50s, but this is a contested point.
But for am American Jew, antisemitism means immediate danger. So you can understand why Ando would have more of a problem with antisemitism than I do. You know the line about sticks and stones. I have nukes. Dish it out.
I don't believe I have ever picked a fight with you, or denigrated you in any way, in spite of our obvious points of, shall we say, extreme disagreement. Yet you accused me, on not the slightest evidence, of being a racist. You did it in the ugliest way you could.
I hit you back, quite above the belt, and now you play the unjustly wounded child. So much for your "honesty".
If you and Pike want to indulge now in a pretend therapy session about How Betty Feels About Jews, that's surely your business, none of mine.
In any case, they probably don't quite reflect events of the last few days, specifically Sharon's claim that he wouldn't consider dismantling any settlement until 2003, and--the latest--his going back on his word regarding allowing Arafat to dispose of the killers of Rehavan Ze'evi.
It would be nice if Sharon could at least provide a plausible rationale for this, as in "We cannot accept Arafat's ridiculous 1-18 year sentences for the murderers of our tourism minister."
Then again, maybe he has said something of the sort, instead of just cynically waving around the corpse of Oslo rules, as the media would have it. (I rely on Pike for any available counter-information.)
The People of Israel are one of the oldest nations on this earth, if not the oldest (I'm not sure 'China' or 'India' were national entities two thousand years ago. Judea was.) The Palestinian nation is as old as I am. We're 4,000 years old, they're 40.
A little respect, as they say.
I conceded that there was a Jewish state in ancient history, but it disappeared nearly two thousand years ago, and was not seen again until 1948. I do not contest that some of the decendents of the citizens of ancient Judea now populate Israel, and that Jews have been a people apart, over a long course of history under the domination of other peoples.
Let me make it clear, I do not deny the legitimacy of the Isreali state. But the same rationale that Miller used to attack the idea of Palestinian statehood could just as easily apply to the Zionist position in the 1940's. And it would be wrong, just as denying Palestinian self determination is wrong.
I conceded to Julius that the parallels between Israelis and the Palestinians are weak. This is true even if we compare contemporary Palestinian guerrilla warfare with that conducted by Begin and his contemporaries in the 1940's. It is fairly well established that the IDF have, on occasion, violated the law of war, and that Israeli leaders have been complicit in other acts of terror against Palestinians. The same is true of the PA and of the revolutionary organizations operating in their territory and beyond. The comparison stops there, though. The degree and frequency of Israeli wrongdoing is so limited in comparison to that of the Palestinians, as to approach being a different thing altogether.
I'm not taking sides in your squabble with betty. I'm just interested in her giving me a glimpse into what makes people hate us so badly, and I think it's worth putting your fight aside for. Wasn't an interesting one anyways.
As for those 'trials': you've got to be kidding.
Spare me, Pike.
"I'm just interested in her giving me a glimpse into what makes people hate us so badly, and I think it's worth putting your fight aside for."
I've already said your impromptu group therapy session is none of my business. That means that for as long as you want, and until I can be roused from not giving a shit, I will have nothing at all to contribute to your conversation with Betty about How Betty Feels.
However, Betty is advised as well to leave me out of her discourse, or I will post any rejoinders I feel are necessary in the Global Terorrism thread.
Well that's just it. There have been these silly "trials" in Fat's compound, consisting of, what, a couple of half-dead "jurors," the Chairman, the accused (but not all of them), some Spam and pitas, and a sentence no one in the PA can execute. Sharon apparently said he'd go along with this game facilitated by the US, which he never should have done, and now he's going back on the deal. This makes him look like a version of Aeroflot himself, i.e., completely untrustworthy.
I'm concerned with the defamation and police harassment that can result from casual conversations with militant pro-Semites in the US. There are a lot of them here who are so rabid they believe it is their right to destroy you financially or even physically if they don't like the way you look at them. And they don't like the way I look at them.
Let me alleviate your concern. You will experience no defamation or police harassment from casual conversations with pro-Semites in the US. You will not be destroyed financially or physically, regardless of how you think you are looking at them.
That's not my experience.
Many of the people my husband and I associate with on a daily basis are to the right of the likes of Jenerator and joezan. You have to be careful with assholes like that in this age of Ashcroft spys. They will hurt you if they don't like what you think of them. They believe it's ok to hurt people who don't like them.
You can end up in deep shit if you overstep your seventh degree of separation, and that's pretty easy to do on the internet. All you have to do is meet the wrong person face to face.
It is my experience.
Many of the people my husband and I associate with on a daily basis are to the right of the likes of Jenerator and joezan. You have to be
careful with assholes like that in this age of Ashcroft spys. They will hurt you if they don't like what you think of them. They believe it's ok
to hurt people who don't like them.
That is not my experience.
I think the received wisdom is that the Declaration would prove HMG's sympathy for the Jews, who, it was feared, had some inclination to support Germany in the war.
Militant Pro-Semite: "Hi, is this seat taken?"
Sakonige: "You look Jewish."
(MPR scowls, moves on)
Sako: (muttering) "He was a very dangerous asshole. My sources tell me he is reporting me to the FBI now on his cell phone. Like all the rest, he wants to hurt me because of the way my eyes penetrate their lying faces."
(Brief pause)
"Wait. Where is my foil hat?? That Zionist just stole my foil hat! Is there nothing they won't stoop to? Is there no place I can exist in peace without being harassed by these domineering pigs?"
incoming.
Many Israelis feel that Sharon is so paralyzed by his obsession with eliminating Arafat, by his commitment to colonial settlements and by his fear that any Israeli concession now would be interpreted as victory for the other side that he cannot produce what most Israelis want: a practical, non-ideological solution, one that says: "Let's pull back to this line, abandon these settlements and engage the Palestinians with this proposal, because that is what will preserve our Jewish democracy, and forget about the other stuff."
As for Arafat, he only wants to talk about yesterday, and what the Palestinians have suffered - or about tomorrow, how one day the Palestinian flag will fly over Jerusalem. But he has no plans for today, no plans for preparing his people for a historic compromise, no plans for building institutions, and no diplomatic strategy for how to cash in this intifada for a peace deal with Israel.
Someone should tell the European fools who now rush to protect Arafat that when this intifada started it was directed partly at his corrupt leadership, but that he redirected it all onto Israel (with Sharon's help), decimating both the Palestinian economy and the very Israeli peace camp that is the only force that can deliver Palestinians a state.
Full text.
Toys?
Toys?
I can't tell the difference between Jewish people and other Europeans unless they identify themselves as Jewish. They all look about the same to me.
Joe Leiberman looks about as Middle-eastern as Jenerator does.
Sak -
Can you provide some anecdotal examples of these assholes hurting people like yourself for looking at them funny or otherwise indicating that you don't like them?
I'm sure marjoribanks would be vitally interested in such information, since his overwhelming anti-RW paranoia is palpable regardless of his shoddy attempts to hide it with a veneer of sophistry and he clearly loves to believe that he is being conspired against in various inchoate ways by conservatives, Jews and Christians.
I hope he's ok.
Right now I'm having a problem with a stalker who is trying to figure out where I live based on archived posts from years ago linked to this website. From their remarks, I don't think this person has located me, but I do avoid talking about things like gardening projects or home improvements that are visible from the street.
The venom and threats of violence Zionists constantly spew are not a joke.
Well, pretty much everyone here seems to take their murderous venom pretty lightly.
Europe and 'Those People' Anti-Semitism arises again.
What so offends Europeans is the armed Jew, the Jew who refuses to sustain seven suicide bombings in the seven days of Passover and strikes back. That Jew has been demonized in the European press as never before since, well . . . since the '30s. The liberal Italian daily La Stampa ran a cartoon of the baby Jesus, besieged by Israeli tanks, saying, "Don't tell me they want to kill me again.""
........
Three people have been chosen by the United Nations to judge Israel's actions in Jenin. Two are sons of Europe, and one of those is Cornelio Sommaruga. As former head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Sommaruga spent 12 years ensuring that the only nation on earth to be refused admission to the International Red Cross is Israel. The problem, he said, was its symbol: "If we're going to have the Shield of David, why would we not have to accept the swastika?"
This man will sit in judgment of the Jews. Marx was wrong when he said that history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second as farce. The second time is tragedy too.
We probably just don't look at them wrong.
Or perhaps they are more venomous where you live. Where was that, again?
When I said 'here', I was referring to this website. I'm referring to the comments posted here.
Maybe she just thinks yer ugly?
Because I'm not covered with pubic hair?
Depends on what you are used to, I guess.
Well then, all is forgiven.
"I do avoid talking about things like gardening projects or home improvements..."
The Mossad have planted listening devices in my tulips. I shall have to dig them up and plant pachysandra.
The sacrifice is immense, but my oppressors do not realize what I'm capable of. Boy will they be surprised.
Camouflage, the better to wiretap your hot tub.
You whiten my face in pubic.
Where is Kofi Anan?
He's not fat.
He's slightly plump.
And his aides are over-thin.
I need sound effects though. Can't find where Red Alert 2 stores its sound files on my PC.
Hmmmm. What's next for those who seek martyrdom?
Perhaps they'll start hacking at Jewish babies in their cribs for that extra raisin. Or lapping up the blood of victims. Oh wait. That's been done.
Jacob Sullum on the Challenges for the IDF
But all I see on the CNN ticker is that four 'settlers' were shot dead by Palestinian 'militants' in a 'settlement'. Ho hum.
Stop using up the space to talk about this atrocity. After all, it isn't equivalent that Sharon is fat?
Jews are so fucking self-centered.
Message # 2200 in thread 114
If you go there, read some Ace posts following it. See what dictatorship has deprived us of.
* belly button of the world
Why? Afraid someone will mistake you for Martha Stewart? Now there's a lady who inspires some hatred!
A creepy person suddenly appeared on day about 6? 9? months ago in Khaval's forum and launched into a series of personal attacks on me using material taken from other messageboards including this one, posted an unlisted email address I had left on a powwow calander website a year earlier, and started posting hostile snipes at me following every remark I made, dropping inuendo that they knew where I lived. This person has since backed off the open hostility, but is still lurking. I don't want people like that interfering with me or my family. I've had enough problems with hysterical outbursts and accusations directed at me online that I don't want any of it spilling over into my home. The online outrage directed at me must be kept inside its box.
Looking at online forums, you can see for yourself how berserk some of these people get if you criticise their views. I don't want to become a target of crime or harrassment as a result of arguing with them.
My husband stands to make a couple million dollars on a project with a Jewish manager. Do you think an average online Zionist would try to fuck us up if they got the chance?
I don't believe that.
I don't get it. You actually trust this Jew-pig to give you a couple million dollars?
You sure he isn't the guy stalking you online?
I don't know why you're so worried about Zionists trying to prevent your husband from doing biznis with Jews. If I were you, I'd watch my back around Margarinespanks.
Your communion wafers are manufactured (using sacrificial Palestinian blood) by the same consortium in Eretz Yisroyel that makes those exorbitant, huge, round imported matzohs you see in the supermarkets around Passover.
We've laced your host with electronic signalling devices. Change the goose as often as you wish, I will still know what you had for breakfast.
(An avocado, generic cornflakes, sugar, lowfat milk, and... well there's a surprise! Sakonige's liver!)
These guys should be taken off the list of human creatures. The UN should appoint a commission to inquire into the bestiality of the Palestinian terror war, and try and determine who is responsible for this massive crime against humanity.
Partial text:
(WASHINGTON DC) April 26, 2002 …The Saudi Information Agency has obtained a tape by prominent government official cleric Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik calling for enslaving Jewish women. The tape is called "a Monkey Desecrates Mosque," and was delivered in a Riyadh government mosque. The monkey refers to Jews.
Al-Buraik, a Wahhabi cleric, is closely tied to Prince AbdulAziz Ben Fahd, the king's youngest son, and member of the Saudi delegation accompanying Crown Prince Abdullah on his current visit.
People should know that Jews are backed by the Christians, and the battle that we are going through is not with Jews only, but also with those who believe that Allah is a third in a Trinity, and those who said that Jesus is the son of Allah, and Allah is Jesus, the son of Mary.
About America he said:
I am against America until this life ends, until the Day of Judgment;
I am against America even if the stone liquefies
My hatred of America, if part of it was contained in the universe, it would collapse.
She is the root of all evils, and wickedness on earth.
Who else implanted the tyrants in our land, who else nurtured oppression?
Oh Muslim Ummah don't take the Jews and Christians as allies.
Jewish women as slaves he says:
Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women? Why don't you wage jihad? Why don't you pillage them.
(In "anti-Semitic" France, you can be sent to jail for much, much less.)
Being bound to this regime and its ideologies is repellant. Even Mubarak is better, if only because he's only a garden variety nationalist and has a lot less on us than we have on him. And we do get someting in return for our aid investment: an Egypt committed enough to regional stability that it takes the strongest rhetorical stand against war of any major country in the mideast. What does SA give us? Oil price stability and lectures about what we must do and when.
I have been trying to formulate a political appeal for domestic conservation, to be aimed at Jews. For instance, no Jew has any business driving a fuel-inefficient vehicle right now. Every Jew should avoid wasting gas or electricity, in my view. Jews should lobby Washington, as Jews, to subsidize non-petroleum resource development. And we should also probably support drilling in ANWAR.
I would start a lights-out-on-Shabbos campaign across the nation, if I had a constituency anywhere, which I don't. This sort of thing has to be coordinated through the synagogues, I'm sure, and I don't even belong to one.
But for the benefit of anyone in the area who may be curious about the guy and his views, there it is.
Who is this Phares guy?
Remind me.
Really, can someone explain how CNN can fail to note that these murderers shot a five year old girl in her bed? Is it just because they're preparing the ground for finding a dead five year old buried in Jenin, and this would spoil the message somehow?
This is the Jerusalem Post report:
He went to a neighbor's house in order to find out what had happened to his family, and learned his daughter had been killed and his wife and two sons wounded. "I saw my wife Shiri being carried out on a stretcher, and she called out 'they murdered our children,' " he said.
She told her husband that terrorists entered the bedroom and sprayed them with gunfire. The children hid underneath the bed, she said, and she told them not to cry. Seconds later, the terrorists left the house.
Inside the Greenberg's home, the couple and their son were sleeping when the terrorists broke in, reached the second floor, and shot them at close range in their bedrooms. Katarina (Katya) died instantly, and her son and husband were wounded.
And this is the CNN report:
They fired into the window of one house, killing the girl and wounding her two brothers, before entering a second house and opening fire. In the second house, a woman was killed and her husband was wounded, the army said.
And these are Danielle Shefi, Arik Becker and Katrina Greenberg. 
In the JPOst report, where is says "The children hid underneath the bed, she said, and she told them not to cry. Seconds later, the terrorists left the house" - that's where Danielle was shot dead in her bed. They found her there, with blood all over the floor and her toys.
CNN has "Five year old girl killed" plastered all over their front page. The Times did as well.
I have European CNN. Let's check out American CNN.
Is the text of the report any different though? Do they have anything like this, from the NYT:
In Adora, the gunmen left behind blood-soaked bedding, shattered windows and a Mickey Mouse pillowcase pierced with a ragged bullet hole. The pillow was on the bed where Danielle Shefi, 5, was lying when she was killed, said Maj. Avner Fuxman, an army spokesman. Her two younger brothers and her mother were wounded.
Her father, an Israeli policeman, was a couple of blocks down the brick street, in the synagogue praying, when his home was attacked.
?
This really fills me with rage, I must say.
The European edition simply has no mention of the five year old girl being shot in her bed, and carries the above, false description, about her being shot 'through the window' along with her brothers, which is part of the main story titled 'four settlers killed' (which also appears in the American edition). All it has is the antisemitic main story.
The American edition has the second story too, under the title 'five year old girl etc.'
Fuck these characters. Fuck them all.
There's a link to the European edition in the American edition, and vice versa, btw. 
"He just opened the door. My wife and the children were sitting on the bed and he just sprayed them with bullets. She remembers pushing the children under the bed. She said, 'Be quiet and don't cry, so that they don't come back,"' Shefi said.
"She saw our daughter breathe her last breath. Anyone capable of looking a 4-year-boy and a 5-year-girl in the face and then shooting them is not human," Shefi said.
Shefi's wife and two sons, ages four and one, were lightly hurt. ...Puddles of blood and bloody footprints covered the girl's bedroom floor.
I didn't say anything about revenge. There is no revenge for a crime like that. When I said 'fuck these characters' I was referring to the CNN Europe desk. Bunch of assholes.
But rage, yes. Of course I have rage against the Pals and Arabs. I channel it constructively though, so that it winds up enabling me to widen my country's borders.
On the left, it says 'Editions'. Click 'Europe'.
I know you worry about me, so here's an update:
1) Remember when I didn't go to court? The judge made me sign a 2000 NIS (400$) bond guaranteeing that I would show up next time and set a new date for September.
2) Erez and his teacher are reporting that ever since the racism article in the paper, those kiddies that were bothering him stopped doing so. And like I reported earlier somewhere, he was quite a social success at the disco party last week.
Good news about Erez. I can't imagine that Israeli adults would tolerate racism for long. When he gets a bit older the girls will be lining up.
I was in a situation where, had I gone to court, I would have been without a lawyer, because the guy who was supposed to represent me was a jerk, long story. So in retrospect I think it's good I didn't go: I would have wound up making a mistake.
Plus, this gives me time to plea bargain. Besides, by September there will be so many dead Israeli babies that the judge will want to give me a reward for taking down that provocateur's sign, if she doesn't already.
As for Erez, it's not so much that the kids are or aren't racist as that their parents and the principal and the clique around the Council Head thought they could fuck with me and found out the hard way they couldn't. They got very bad press (lethal for a school) and a direct order from the top rungs of the Ministry of Education to let me back into the school, on pain of legal action. Once they figured out Sandrov wasn't the hot shot he was pretending to be (the guy was a school principal for 20 years, and supposedly had some clout in the Ministry of Ed.) they decided to be nice.
The principal has announced she is resigning, btw.
Funny thing how everything connects here. For instance, I'm pretty sure the reason the story about racism in Katzir got such top billing in the Hadera local is that they have an Arab reporter who pretty much runs the paper along with a Jewish reporter. And the Arabs have been claiming we are racists for ages (the Katzir case in the Supreme Court, etc.).
That's also the reason why the Hadera paper has gone out of its way not to give me any support in my struggle to make Sandrov give Katzir some kind of physical protection against terror. The Arabs don't like having Jewish guards and gates in their back yard.
Hey - thanks for the update.
I haven't had much time for Moting lately - very busy around here.
The only update I have is, I'm feeling my mortality more than ever before, and it's very depressing. We started softball a couple of weeks ago - I'm in a co-ed league with my wife. And at our first practice I sprained my ASS, for crying out loud. Just as it gets back to normal we have another practice and I re-sprain it. This has happened 4 times now.
I woke up yesterday after a practice game on Friday night, and could barely move. I freaked out when the wife told me we were out of ibuprofen, and went out to the store in my pjs to get some.
Getting old sucks.
But I must admit, reading about this gave me a profound chuckle or two. I feel your pain...
I'm still immortal. Don't spoil it for me.
Have you tried Asspertame?
J E R U S A L E M, April 28 — Israel's Cabinet decided Sunday not to allow a U.N. fact-finding team to come to the region to look into the battle in the Jenin refugee camp, a Cabinet minister said.
Communications Minister Reuven Rivlin, briefing reporters after a lengthy Cabinet meeting, said that the United Nations had gone back on its agreements with Israel over the team, and so it would not be allowed to arrive.
Rivlin, speaking for the Cabinet, criticized the team's composition and said it was inevitable that the mission's report would blame Israel.
"This awful United Nations committee is out to get us and is likely to smear Israel and to force us to do things which Israel is not prepared even to hear about, such as interrogating soldiers and officers who took part in the fighting," Rivlin said. "No country in the world would agree to such a thing."
Lebanese professor at Florida International U. who maintains that the civil war in Lebanon was an extension of a long struggle for Christian self-determination in that country vis Arabs and Islam. Or something like that, I'm not sure I'm summarizing his views completely.
******
The Sheba Medical Center-Tel Hashomer is Israel's major center for severe military injuries and victims of terror, and is also the country's largest medical center and research complex. It is urgently in need of respirators, which cost $20,000 each.
Tax-deductible donations can be sent to Friends of Tel Hashomer, in NY: (212) 265-2135.
If you don't intend to donate, please circulate this appeal anyway, wherever it might be appropriate.
Shall we draw the conclusion that you consider the Geneva conventions applicable on the West Bank?
Washington Post
I had been looking for the number of deaths after reading them Friday.
There would seem to be 435 refuseniks, according to their website, but most are not officers it seems.
And Rustler is very disappointed at the kill ratio. It should be at least 10:1, he thinks.
That's the tradition, yes.
I trust we will uphold it.
7:1 would still be reasonable, I think.
If I had the stats for Arab and Israeli KIA in the Yom Kippur and Six Day wars, I'd post them. I'm curious myself.
"A 67-year-old priest, emerging from Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, told Israeli officers that the Palestinian gunmen inside had "no respect" for the head of the monastery. "They stole his diamond-ornamented cross," he claimed.
The priest, Narcis Karouzian, described how the monks inside the church painted a sign that read, "Please help," and posted it in the monastery courtyard--so it could be seen by an Israeli reconnaissance balloon...
Be careful, Pathetic Pelle, or I'll do to you what Dr. No did.
Your link goes to freerepublic, nowhere else.
Send somebody to fetch a child of five."
--Groucho Marx, DUCK SOUP
No. The reason I alluded to them is that some around the world have made the charge that under Geneva Israel is guilty of unprovoked war crimes. I am only saying that using Geneva's own rubric, the onus still rests on the Palestinians.
Mind you, none of this changes my view that Israel should withdraw from the WB&G, nor my belief that the Bush administration is likely to try and impose a two-state solution on Israel and the Pals in the near future, probably with an international force separating the two sides.
And I believe the Palestinians deserve a viable state, one which they will have to take great care in making sure it does not turn into a rogue terrorist state, for such a thing would happen at the Palestinians' great peril.
Palestinians have been, over the past several decades, among the best-educated, best-achieving of all the Middle East peoples. The Gulf States and Saudi Arabia rely on Palestinians first and then the subcontinentals to run every conceivable aspect of their state machinery. In Lebanon and Jordan, Palestinians form a very large portion of the social and economic elite. The diaspora, such as it is, in the West is similarly poised to contribute to a nascent state with great financial and intellectual resources. In effect, Palestinians are the Jews of the Arabs.
Furthermore, there will likely be an inflow of funds and technology to a Palestinian state from Europe, China and India when it is founded, as well as from the Muslim states especially the UAE, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. In all of these potential allies, there is a host of goodwill and a sense that something must be done to help these people who have suffered, stateless and downtrodden, for so long. In this aspect too, there is a viable analogy to be made with Jews.
It is simply a fact that Israel's achievements have come partly due to the brilliance and perseverence of the migrants from around the world, but also in large part to the constant flow of funds remitted by 1) the US and 2) the diaspora. Israel has rec'd more funds from the US in the last 50 years than the latter country has disbursed to Latin America, Africa and Asia combined in the same period of time - something like 14 million dollars a day, every day. I submit that a redirection of US aid in a more equitable fashion - say 4-5 million daily for the smaller Pal population will immediately yield results for the new state. Hell, they'll make the desert "bloom" too.
In an Israel comparison, it is as though you looked in 1947 at only the Sephardic communities in the most backward Arab states and made a judgement about the potential of a state populated exclusively by them. Such an assesment would have been erroneous, and so is any assessment of a Pal state that does not take into account what the Pals have managed to do for themselves abroad.
I am not sure where you get your information, but it runs counter to everything I have heard and against common sense. Well educated people don't blow themselves up in order to destroy innocent women and children.
Yes there are some well educated Palestinians. Mostly they were educated in Israel and the US. The vast majority of Palestinians are not well educated. Yes they work in many Arab countries, but mostly in low paying low skill jobs that no one else wants.
You are right that many Arab countries would give aid to Palestine, but that is because they don't want the Palestinians in their county. Kuwait expelled 2 million Palestinians after the Gulf War. Jordan killed 20,000 Palestinians during an uprising in the 1970's.
I think you are overly optimistic about what a Palestinian state would look like. Based on the performance of the area pre-Israel and what Palestinians have done with the land they already hold, a Palestinian state will be a disaster. Extreme poverty will cause the area to remain a hotbed of terrorism for decades to come and constant threat to Israel's security.
On the other big news, it is no surprise and no one should treat it as an outrage. If the newspaper accounts are true (and we must wait for comment from Annan) then the trio of UN "fact-finders" were asking for the right to question Israeli troops and commanders about their actions. This is something most countries would not countenance unless in a radically different framework from the current one, and it is fair enough for the Israelis to say no.
What was an outrage, cheap and insupportable, was the attempt to smear the UN trio in advance, including that old tactic of calling them antisemitic. These allegations were particularly egregiously made in the US media, especially by Krauthammer who purposely and incredibly dishonestly misrepresented some quotes from the Red Cross fellow. I wonder who exactly Krauthammer thinks he's fooling. The most offensive thing in the end is how little he thinks of his readership, how easily he thinks they can be manipulated. It's extremely shameful.
Naturally, you are an American and get your information from the likes of Krauthammer. What is more, Biener, you have not read my post. To recap, very briefly, the Palestinians (for the most part) who have become well-educated and affluent live outside Palestine - in the UAE and Kuwait and Jordan and Saudi Arabia and the West.
Your second and third paragraphs are absolute nonsense. I'm not saying this to be rude, it's simply the case, you don't know what you're talking about.
The last para is your opinion, and it is not based on anything resembling a realistic analysis of the situation, let alone a demonstration of having read or understood what I have posted.
Pseudoerasmus needs to be summoned from his lair for data on the Pals abroad.
I'm glad you said "will be," because a Palestinian state had been contemplated by previous peace discussions as has removal of the settlements. The present conflict has been caused, in great part, by Sharon's and Netanyahu's backtracking on the settlements issue.
What I stated in para 2 and 3 are facts whether you think them nonsense or not. Palestine pre-Israel was desperately poor with little in the way of agriculture. Hundreds of years of mismanagement had turned most of the area into desert. Under Israeli management, the land is now productive again. This is fact and any casual reading of history will demonstrate it.
As for your contention that most Palestinians are well educated outside Israel/Palestine, how about a source? During the Gulf War the plight of the Palestinians was examined in excrutiating detail. If you managed to miss it, again the information is readily available from many sources.
Where are these well educated Palestinians and what have they done to improve life for Palestinians over the last 20 years?
I repeat "What is Israel's plan for peace?"
Just so we are on the same page, Israel is not occupying a state called Palestine. Israel is occupying a portion of Jordan. Jordan attacked Israel during the 6 Day War and lost. Israel occupied the land to provide protection against future attacks.
Jordan has long since given up trying to recover the land by military means. They cannot come close to defeating the Israelis. Instead they are trying to regain the territory through political means, ie claiming that the land should be a Palestinian state. In 1948 the Palestinians were given a state, Jordan. Well, the Jordanians didn't like the Palestinians hence we find ourselves in this current situation.
Over the last 50 years, Palestinians could have integrated themselves into any country in the region including Israel. Many Palestinians have integrated into Israeli society including serving in the government, owning business and leading prosperous lives.
The bulk have chosen to live in squalor and hatred vowing to destroy Israel and take whatever property and wealth owned by Israelis.
Just for shits and giggles, take out a map of the Middle East. Look at size of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, et al. Now look at the size of Israel. Are you telling me the only place the Palestinians can live is the West Bank? Are you telling me that in two generations these huge wealthy countries could do nothing for their "Arab brothers"? I think we need a reality check here.
Israel was under attack and threat of annihilation by the Arabs from day one, literally. It grabbed the WB&G in 1967, after fending off the most credible pan-Arab threat to its existence ever. The Pals in the WB had been trying to butcher the Jews for 38 years by then (taking the 1929 Hebron Massacre as a point of departure), most of those as Jordanian citizens and soldiers. The Fatah was not exactly Nobel Peace Prize material back then. The PLO charter called for the annihilation of Israel, and its tactics were murder, murder, murder.
The settlements should be seen as Israel's attempt to push the Arabs towards the negotiating table, rather than as an obstacle to peace. The Arabs did not want peace, or even pretend to, before the settlements became a real geo-demographic threat. In effect, what Israeli policy has been saying to the Arabs since 1967 is: accept that you've lost, or you'll lose more. Make peace, or we'll just get stronger. Accept us is pre-1967 Israel, or you'll get us all the way to the banks of the Jordan. And if you do accept us, we can always get rid of the settlements.
Or, put more succinctly: either you reach a settlement with us, or our settlements reach you.
In any case it's a misnomer now, because 'WB' actually referred to all of what is now Israel, plus what is now known as the WB&G. We really should call the areas the Central Mountain Range, or Yehuda and Shomron.
So the Arabs have been suing for peace since day one, and we've just been expanding for no reason other than greed?
"I come to you holding an olive branch in one hand, and a gun in the other". This sentence by Arafat at the UN, sometime in the 70s, sums it all up. Somebody comes to me holding an olive branch and a gun, I call in air support.
Marj brings up a point i would like to see, and have never seen, addressed...money. we all know Israel receives a huge amount of aid from the US, a disproportionate amount...what is the US motivation for this silly amount of funding? How much has that funding effected the successfulness of Israel's agriculture and industry? were Jewish communities and individuals living in the area pre-Israel doing better as farmers than their Palestinian neighbors? What indicates that Palestinians, if given the same insane amount of funding per person that Israel receives from the US, would be less successful in agriculture?
The Pals are indeed receiving tons of aid themselves, including from Israel, since Oslo. Guess where it goes? It goes to get Arafat's friends hookers and benzes, is where.
without a government accountable to the people it's inevitable that money will be spent on hookers and cars...Even in government that is supposedly accountable to the people we have this happen. I was thinking about a government that actually has a country and is recognized as a legitimate state...anyway, don't try to deflect from my questions, if you don't know the answers or have a theory shut up before I stuff a sock in your mouth...call me nice will ya? ;)
Please stop being such a stranger.
As for a Palestinian state being a disaster, that potential certainly exists. And many of the well-educated, business-oriented Palestinians are those who have in fact left the region. And many of those who have left are Christians who are appalled by Islamofacsism and have no intention of returning to the Mideast, ever.
Still, Palestine today is not Jordan, and Egypt. A national identiy in the WB&G has developed. It should be honored.
And, as I have said before, a Palestinian state that turns to state-sponsored terrorism in order to destroy Israel or attack Western values should be dealt with in the same way we (the U.S.) are going to deal with Saddam Hussein.
No, I suspect. The Pals will have to be even more outrageous in their behavior than they have been in recent times for that to happen.
As for the Pals doing beautifully with U.S. aid, I suspect that aid will mean nothing for them if Arafat's idiotic thugs remain in charge. The Israelis prosper because they ascribe to more-or-less pro-business, vaguely Enlightenment, classical liberal views, despite their original founding by socialists. The Pals have no such tradition to draw upon. But there are young people among the Palestinians who have noticed what is happening in the rest of the world -- a gradual triumph of classical liberal values -- and so there is hope.
It takes more than money and good intentions. It takes a utopian ideology and reasonably good organization, not too thoroughly corrupt.
Maybe after Arafat is dead. Maybe. But until then, don't hold your breath. Whatever the Pals wind up with, some strong and dangerous contingent of them won't think it's enough. Instead of building a country, they'll spend their energies, for at least another decade, trying to tear down the one next door.
How in heaven's name would you know what "comes as a shock" to Americans?
I think most folks on this thread, at least, are aware that Palestinians and Arab Israelis are among the mideast's best educated Arabs, per capita. But that doesn't mean much. And what the "popular conception of Palestinians in much of the Arab world" indicates about the Pals' ability to make a state, no reaonable person can predict. One would simply wish them luck, and remain very well armed.
"It is, in fact, misleading (and in part a careful and dangerous deceit) to think of the mass of that people as the desperate, stone-throwing, uneducated, rabble that you see on TV."
Then you must concede the Palestinian elite ought to know better than to cede authority to the murderous masses. And of course, the "mass" of the Palestinian people is the crowd that throws stones and roots for the murder of little Jewish girls in their beds. Those who think as individuals currently have no power or influence, except to make excuses and construct rationalizations for those who don't.
And over 5,000 IDF volunteers, including some from countries other than Israel. I would bet that number has been rising as well, although you may not have heard about it.
"The present conflict has been caused, in great part, by Sharon's and Netanyahu's backtracking on the settlements issue."
Prove it.
that's just inexcusable.
"Scumwads" may be generous.
It won't happen, except under the most extraordinary circumstances. It's something the US would not stand for--unless Pal territory became a launch pad for effective chemical, biogical, or nuclear weapons attacks.
In that case, all bets are off.
My peace plan involves a very big war first.
What was the Allied peace plan in 1940?
Ando:
It's something the US would not stand for--unless Pal territory became a launch pad for effective chemical, biogical, or nuclear weapons attacks.
That would only happen if we fell for that 'give them a full fledged state first, then see what happens' line. I'm sure if Tel Aviv was nuked the EU would even approve sending out a fact finding commission.
Years ago I told you guys there would be war when you all thought otherwise. I'm telling you now: the Pals are Jordanians and they will join their families in Jordan a couple of years from now.
I don't see how there can be any comparison between the State of Israel and the Paletinians. The US has a policy of not rewarding terrorism. Granted it doesn't always follow this policy, but it exists nonetheless. Were the Palestinians to renounce terror, it would be much easier to justify additional aid. As it is, it is hard for the US to pump money into a group that sends its young people off with bombs strapped to their bodies to blow up innocent women and children.
As for what a Palestinian state would look like, I think we have pretty much seen what it will look like. It has been 6 years since Arafat was "elected" the head of the interim Palestinian government. What has happened in that 6 years? Where are the schools? The farms? The businesses? Anything?
I agree with what you said about Israel, but I think you are too kind to the current government which is up to no good and may get us all in trouble before it's over.
Wow!
The cause of this conflict is the targetting of civilians by Palestinian terrorists. Until that happens there is no chance for a resolution. Israel unilaterally dismantling its settlements would be tantamount to US unilaterally disarming at the height of the Cold War. It is national suicide.
Get real yourself. What "everyone" thinks, as anyone half aware of history can tell you, is not always or even usually correct.
Maybe you're saying I should give a deep shit about what the Arab masses or Pakistanis or Frenchmen or Iranians think is the true cause of the current conflict? Hell, why not poll the leftist British press and some neo-Nazis to find out what's "true"? Surely the pundits can reveal all.
"I might just as well say prove it is not true that the conflict is caused in large part by Israel's settlements policy."
You're the one who made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you. Here is what you claimed: "The present conflict has been caused, in great part, by Sharon's and Netanyahu's backtracking on the settlements issue."
I challenge you to show how settlements have much effect at all on most Palestinians, or how they would have, were there no military occupation occasioned by the regular murdering of Jewish settlers and civilians inside Israel proper. Such attacks occurred during the entire period Oslo was supposedly in force, and even increased, despite a limited Israeli redeployment and the training and arming of Palestinian police by Israel.
The fact is, the present conflict began in reaction to Yassir's awesome adventure with Bill and Ehud at Camp David, during which settlements and their disposition were reportedly discussed. Remember? But radical Pals, apparently including Arafat, weren't ready to end their claim on all of Israel, right of return, all of Jerusalem. By waging war in the midst of peace talks, they effectively sabotaged any chance of having to compromise.
I revealed my peace plan here some time ago, posted it at least twice, but events are probably overtaking it now.
I see. So the US can get hammered by 18 guys in three airplanes, but Israel can't. And we're busily preparing to flatten Saddam before he sells something nasty to a terrorist en route to NY, but you think you're safe from nukes and bioweapons just so long as a state is not sitting in the West Bank.
Frankly, I figure the odds aren't so fabulous for Israel, Pal state or no.
"Years ago I told you guys there would be war when you all thought otherwise."
Well, I didn't. But you predicted a regional war, and it hasn't come to that yet.
Right now Israel is keeping a relatively low profile where Iraq is concerned at the request of the US. However if Sadaam does succeed in developing weapons of mass destruction, Israel won't hesitate in destroying them. They have done it before, they will do it again.
Israel is the dominant military force in the region. That is not going to change any time in the near future. It is going to take a lot more that Palestinian suicide bombers and shaking fists to destroy it.
Excerpt:
Europe REALLY hates us. They REALLY love the Arabs.
But that's OK, because we'll get the last laugh. At the rate the Arabs are flooding into Europe (France is already 10 percent Muslim), and given their penchant for a high birth rate, not to mention their disaffection and refusal to integrate and coexist, and most of all, the intensifying menace of globalist Islamization taking full advantage of the freedoms of democracy ... get the picture? Within 50 years those poor anti-Semitic Christian Europeans will be overwhelmed by a Crusade in reverse, in a veritable Eurabia. And we'll be saying
"Told you so!" I can't wait. Islam vs Civilization has already begun, of course. In virtually every flashpoint in the world, one side of almost every conflict is Muslim.
Funny thing about the Europeans. They still don't get it - 200 years after they entered the Age of Reason. They're intellectually paralyzed by politically-correct super-liberalism, and can't comprehend that the Arab world, though a millennium behind progressive society, is outfoxing them.
The meek shall never inherit the earth so long as the empowered appeases the bully. Moral courage is routinely, cynically sacrificed: Selfridge's in London capitulates to Arab demands and removes Israeli-made products from its shelves; a Paris cinema cancels a special Hanukka showing for Jewish children because Arabs commanded them to. The two largest supermarkets in Norway take swift action against Israel - one clamping a boycott, and the other posting large signs "warning" that the particular products were imported from the Jewish State - and they hadn't even been pressured by Arabs. So much for Oslo.
This Dr. Helena Ranta, it seems, should not be allowed to participate in an investigation into the Jenin action, because she seems to have both the motivation and the lack of professional ethics to attempt to create the impression of a massacre where none occurred, as she did in Racak, which the ignominious x42 used as a pretext for his war crimes against Serbia.
Israel remains the sole democracy in the region. It has been a strong ally for over 50 years and that loyalty is worth something.
That's useless as an explaination as to why the US gives so much money per person to Israel. That all can be said of a few different countries around the globe...and the US doesn't seem to favor democracies over dictators of one sort or another anyway.
Israel is also a major source of intelligence and its location is strategically important to the US.
Now we are getting somewhere...Does the US view Israel as the 51st state? An outpost of it's Empire? Is that strategic placing worth 3 billion dollars a year? Is the US buying Israeli loyalty?
The US has a policy of not rewarding terrorism. Granted it doesn't always follow this policy, but it exists nonetheless.
Oh that's a load of shit. The policy is there for appearance and convenience...the US trains and funds terrorists throughout the world. The graduates of the SOA, or whatever they've changed the name to, are ample proof of that.
Were the Palestinians to renounce terror, it would be much easier to justify additional aid.
Yet recent US foreign aid history seems to suggest something a little different...increase persecution of minority groups and increase the amount of money, through aid and trade, you receive (a la Turkey and China).
It would seem that anyone who might be inclined or able to help develop Palestine has left the War zone, just as many young Israeli's try to get the hell out. Continued War is bad for both Israel and Palestinians, but worse for Palestinians because without a real infrastructure they will continue to loose their best and brightest, the people most likely to make significant, positive changes...but then maybe that makes war worse for Israel.
What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.
--
Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.
The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.
We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world.
Bishop Tutu -here.
Betty -
It should make you feel better that aid to Israel has been decreased from the $4 billion that x42 gave them in 2000 to less than $2.9 billion in 2001. And then there is the $2 billion in foreign aid that the US gives to Egypt each year.
So, what would be the proper proportion of US foreign aid, IYO?
The Poetry thread regulars have been working on Uzmakk's great Mote Poetry Project, and we'd like to include something by Hashke and Cigarlaw, but we need permission from their families. Pelle mentioned that you were close to Hashke, and so I wonder whether you'd be able to put me in touch with Mrs Hashke. I'd appreciate it very much.
People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.
Actually I have lost touch with Kaye. I'm not even sure what her e-mail address is anymore, though I remember bits and pieces of the one that used to be theirs.
We exchanged some e-mails after hashke died and then it fizzled.
Once again, marjoribanks' whackiness is exposed.
Wacky. Whacky.
Wacko.
Whacko.
Hmmnm.
@cia-g.com
No. I meant 'whackiness'. As in 'whackjob'.
Marjoribanks possibly could be more accurately referred to as a 'nutburger'.
That said, I will grant you that Arafat and other Palestinian leaders have used the settlements as a rallying point to whip their people into a frenzy. That is not the fault of the settlement, but rather the fault of Arafat and his "government".
If you want to follow that line of thinking, you can just as easily say that Israel's very existence is the major cause of the conflict. Actually there you would be much closer to the truth. If the Palestinians didn't have the settlements to rail against, they would find something else.
The sad truth is that Arafat and his fellow terrorists are still committed to the ultimate destruction of Israel. Until the Palestinians can concede the existence of Israel, there is no possibility of peace, and there is nothing Israel can do to change that. All it can do is try its best to protect its citizens from an implacable enemy.