Hardship in Baghdad - fashion show at the Grand Hotel.
5097. ScottLoar - 1/12/2000 7:57:21 PM
As I have when reading any romanized Chinese text save I rely on context, which is slim support when the text is literary or otherwise specialized. In short, there's no sustitute for the character.
5098. PincherMartin - 1/12/2000 7:57:40 PM
Hello PE Message # 5069
5099. pseudoerasmus - 1/12/2000 8:01:40 PM
There appears to have been much other rubbish written by Marzipranks and Candide, but I must now get off-line. Outrage and correction are dear.
5100. pseudoerasmus - 1/12/2000 8:02:43 PM
Hello, Pincher. Excellent comments, as usual. Goodbye.
5101. PincherMartin - 1/12/2000 8:03:56 PM
Irv --
Message # 5081
I don't know if I would use the word "fascinating," myself.
5102. ScottLoar - 1/12/2000 8:07:09 PM
Interservice rivalry is surely not peculiar to Indonesia. That rivalry between the Imperial Japanese Navy and Army was so intense joint action could hardly be coordinated between them, the very military terminology utterly different.
5103. PincherMartin - 1/12/2000 8:10:16 PM
Scott Loar --
Those women lured by US$10,000.00 need be slow-witted or at the ready disposal of their parents to pressure them into sterilization, which means the poor, the corrupt, the feeble, the retarded. I wonder what the figures would be if broken down by race.
5104. ScottLoar - 1/12/2000 8:12:28 PM
And yet, Singapore solicits immigration of talented mainland and Hong Kong Chinese to the active disgust of many Singaporean Chinese.
5105. PincherMartin - 1/12/2000 8:20:46 PM
Scott Loar --
Interservice rivalry is surely not peculiar to Indonesia. That rivalry between the Imperial Japanese Navy and Army was so intense joint action could hardly be coordinated between them, the very military terminology utterly different.
5106. CalGal - 1/12/2000 8:21:22 PM
Pincher,
As I'm sure you know, there's a fair amount of support here for sterilizing crack addicted women.
5107. PincherMartin - 1/12/2000 8:24:08 PM
Actually, I didn't. What's the argument?
5108. ScottLoar - 1/12/2000 8:25:05 PM
Actually, moving military governors around served to disassociate the commander from his command, retarded regional and personal loyalties, and kept the military under party control. The CCP learned well this lesson from history of the last 150 years.
The most obvious example of regional loyalty was when the Beijing garrison was called out to remove the students at Tienanmen. They didn't, field troops from the Sino-Viet border were called in and did.
5109. Candide - 1/12/2000 8:32:08 PM
Pseudoerasmus
Outrage and correction are dear.
Then save thy muney lad.
5110. Candide - 1/12/2000 10:00:14 PM
RickNelson#5044
I am stricken with guilt for having forgotten to reply to you. Pseudoerasmus's arrival with a thunder-clap wiped my brain of all but a desire to kick his arse. No offence PE.
I had intended to reply and have just read in 'role-models' your reference to 'those Moties who do reply'.
I was grateful for your post. As you know Bible predictions don't interest me except as interesting psychological and historical phenomena, but I am continually oppressed rather than depressed by the way people won't question the whole military mentality.
I am not naturally a fanatical feminist but present international events might have made me into a man-hater if I didn't know some pretty nice men.
There is a kind of woman who adoringly supports her man no matter what. There is a song by Schubert with words from Sir Walter Scott. Ellen's erster Gesang. In the song a medieval lady nurses the head (still attached to his sleeping body) of her blood-stained knight in her lap as she sings him a lullaby. It turns into a sort of hymn in praise of war. It always seemed to me like a man's portrait of an ideal woman. I love the song but aspects of it really stick in my throat. It is her 'role' to comfort him after battle.
This is somehow still deep in the modern war-machine, plus other ingredients like scientific hubris and human conceit. Incurable probably.
5111. CalGal - 1/12/2000 10:08:40 PM
Pincher,
Cash for Birth Control. This one has received a great deal of coverage.
From the site:
Women and men who are using or addicted to drugs are often responsible for an extraordinary number of pregnancies (5-10 or more) that they are in no position to take care of. These babies have a 17% mortality rate. Those that do survive are frequently born premature and at a very low birth weight. The drug exposure usually leads to premature births and many times can leave these babies with permanent disabilities. Sadly, the risk of exposure to HIV also runs high. The babies require long difficult and expensive hospital stays before they are released into the overburdened foster care system. The tiny newborns struggle with drug withdrawals and are commonly abandoned at birth. The children are also at a high risk of neglect, further physical or sexual abuse and later... homelessness, institutionalization and worse.
5112. Candide - 1/12/2000 10:55:04 PM
CalGal
I couldn't possibly object to that scheme. I have seen something of that woman's work on US TV (The Lehrer Hour) and I was really impressed. The babies and children were heart breaking.
I think it would be stretching the term to call that eugenics.
5113. CalGal - 1/12/2000 10:59:38 PM
Thereby proving that you're perfectly willing to start down the slope if you approve of the reasons.
Pincher,
Obviously, the government isn't sponsoring this program--but the general concept is pretty much the same.
5114. Candide - 1/12/2000 11:18:46 PM
CalGal 5113
No, not proving that. Preventing births voluntarily when the alternative is sickness and death is a far cry from preventing births when the reason is one of class or race.
I believe in freedom of choice and this is just voluntary contraception. A friend of mine had a tubal ligation after she had completed her family. I see it in those terms. Those women can't cope with their own lives, let alone the guilt and misery of an unwanted baby that is infected with HIV.
In Australia at the height of the eugenics phase, Aboriginal women were sterilised without being informed.
5115. CalGal - 1/12/2000 11:27:10 PM
Candide,
Yet when we were discussing Singapore's policy of offering incentives only to educated or wealthy women, you called it a slippery slope. But it's the same thing.
One of the unspoken facts about these efforts, btw, is that the majority of crack addicts are black and poor. Because in general they're the addicts that also get pregnant. A lot.
5116. Candide - 1/12/2000 11:41:37 PM
CalGal
I have read that financial (tax) incentives are offered to professional women in Singapore. Perhaps Pincher Martin has up-to-date information about that. Working class women, not necessarily more stupid or immoral,are, as I understand it, offered no such incentive. Thatwould make their children doubly disadvantaged.
One of the unspoken facts about these efforts, btw, is that the
majority of crack addicts are black and poor. Because in general
they're the addicts that also get pregnant. A lot.
I believe that your article indicated that the pregnancies were involuntary and mostly unwanted. In that case colour is irrelevant.
5117. Candide - 1/12/2000 11:44:56 PM
I feel that I should stress that I meant that the fact that class was the incentive was the 'slippery slope'.
5118. RustlerPike - 1/12/2000 11:45:29 PM
Hi guys and gals.
Pelle, Danthe et al.:
Good discussion and links. First let me say that I am not well enough informed about the nuts and bolts of the issues being discussed, partly because I am 'in transition' between being employed and (hopefully) having my own business and am all caught up in that, and partly perhaps because something tells me these nuts and bolts are not what matters.
In response to a question raised here back in the 20th century - I am told by a semi-trustworthy source (my mother) that the reason the law passed by the Begin government (regarding annexation of the Golan) is not an issue is that the law itself specified a national referendum as something that could override it.
As for the June 4th 1967 vs. the international borders: It is my understanding that the Syrians edged their positions westwards between 1948 and 1967, and this accounts for those relatively small differences seen on the (excellent) map Dan posted. Their border was never, de jure, on the banks of the Kinneret, or Sea of Galilee, but they made it so, de facto. Now they want those unilateral 'modifications' they carried out to be recognized as legit.
>>>
5119. Candide - 1/12/2000 11:53:51 PM
RustlerPike
Was I way off the mark when I said that water was the central issue?
5120. CalGal - 1/12/2000 11:59:07 PM
Candide,
In that case colour is irrelevant.
I did say it was unspoken. And I think the reaction would be the same if the women were white. Nonetheless, the majority of them are black. And if you think it's irrelevant, you don't know very much about racial politics in the States.
Working class women, not necessarily more stupid or immoral,are, as I understand it, offered no such incentive. Thatwould make their children doubly disadvantaged.
So what? What does that have to do with eugenics? Besides, it hardly doubles the disadvantage. The "working woman" isn't any more or less disadvantaged if the rich or educated woman gets money for having a baby.
You can disapprove of the policy, but I see nothing in your analysis that makes this any different from offering crack addicts money to be sterilized. The one key difference (that it's the government) you haven't even mentioned.
I feel that I should stress that I meant that the fact that class was the incentive was the 'slippery slope'.
Oh. Well, I'm glad you get to choose the slope. I could have sworn that you objected to the notion of offering incentives for having children to the "right" sort. And what is offering incentives to sterilize to the "wrong" sort if not the flip side?
Sorry. I don't see the distinction. I suspect socialist hackery.
5121. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 12:08:01 AM
Frankly, the way things look now, the chances of Barak getting this deal past the Israeli public are not very high. Personally, I fail to understand why Barak had to go to Sheperdstown personally to meet with a-Shar'a. He could have sent his foreign minister.
I fail to understand why Assad can't bring his sorry self over to meet Barak personally. It would seem to me he is the one with the most to gain from this deal, not Israel. So my attitude, right now, is best expressed by the Yiddish moykhel toyves, and the Hebrew bli tovot: no favors, thanks.
I understand why Barak is doing all this, I think: he is not a man for a stalemate. He is a man of action, and he sees the choice as being between war and peace (which, basically, I guess it always is). Since he can't bring himself to opt for war - being a sensible person and a responsible leader - he has decided to opt for peace. But maybe he is not seeing quite as large a picture as he should. Sometimes there is no action to be taken, other than just letting things take their course.
I guess this could be expressed as - thanks, Ehud, we realize you are trying to help, but there is nothing you can do right now.
The very same section of the Israeli electorate which brought Barak into power - the pragmatic, non religious, right-leaning center (I can't describe it better than that) is what will prevent the deal from getting a majority in a plebiscite, it appears. The recent polls show a clear majority against a full withdrawal from the Golan.
5122. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 12:10:16 AM
Candide:
There is always a school of thought that says water is the central issue in the mideast. This can best be compared to the school of thought that saw the Gulf War as a war over oil. Personally, I am more of a romantic...
5123. Candide - 1/13/2000 12:12:12 AM
Rustler Pike
Thanks for the interesting but worrying analysis. It seems that reports in the local media have been accurate.
5124. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 12:12:29 AM
Rick:
I remember a bible study in the mid 80's. It stated that revelations tells us the world's turmoil will start north of Isreal. So, we have Iraq and Pakistan.
I think those countries are better described as being to the east of Israel, no?
5125. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 12:23:58 AM
However - I assume the bit from Revelations is itself based on Jer. 1:14, "the trouble shall unfold from the north" (my translation).
OK - I don't have time for this, I'll continue later... sorry, my daughter is demanding her bottle...
5126. Candide - 1/13/2000 12:27:12 AM
CalGal
The "working woman" isn't any more or
less disadvantaged if the rich or educated woman gets money for
having a baby.
Her CHILD is doubly disadvantaged in comparison with the middle-class child. The mother must struggle as always plus cope with the child whereas the professional woman can raise her child in elegant comfort.
I gathered from the article that the women were only sterilised if they chose to be.
So what? What doesclass as the target that have to do with eugenics? Besides, it hardly doubles the disadvantage.
It does comparitively.
Eugenics is about selection for certain qualities. Favouring a class is about selection.
Assisting addicts comes into the medical field. You could say that it is selective to give medicine to the sick and not to the well.
I am used to state medical and health schemes and I am in favour of them. I believe that it is sensible to pay taxes for basic educational and health schemes and the one under discussion seems to come into this category. It is NOT compulsory. If it were I would totally oppose it.
5127. Candide - 1/13/2000 12:51:53 AM
CalGal
Ms. Harris had first lobbied legislators to pass a bill that would make people accountable for their repetitive and inhumane acts against their own newborns. But, when that bill did not pass, she designed an
alternative plan called "Project Prevention." Her plan was to offer a
cash incentive to drug/alcohol addicts to spark the attention of those
struggling with yearly pregnancies, numerous abortions, many
abandoned children and incarcerations for child abuse.
To offer help rather than compulsion seems the opposite of eugenics.
5128. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 12:57:56 AM
Candide:
I am not naturally a fanatical feminist but present international events might have made me into a man-hater if I didn't know some pretty nice men.
There is a kind of woman who adoringly supports her man no matter what. There is a song by Schubert with words from Sir Walter Scott. Ellen's erster Gesang. In the song a medieval lady nurses the head (still attached to his sleeping body) of her blood-stained knight in her lap as she sings him a lullaby. It turns into a sort of hymn in praise of war. It always seemed to me like a man's portrait of an ideal woman. I love the song but aspects of it really stick in my throat. It is her 'role' to comfort him after battle.
This is somehow still deep in the modern war-machine, plus other ingredients like scientific hubris and human conceit. Incurable probably.
What utter crockola. I've heard similar femino-pacifist rants from Israeli women as well. The kutzpah! If it weren't for the 20-something thousand men (and women!) who were killed defending this country since 1948, those very same women doing the man-bashing (or their mothers) would have been raped, butchered, or both by Syrians, Palestinians, Jordanians, Iraqis, Egyptians, etc. The lucky ones would have wound up as chattel, the very very lucky as wives.
I don't know about man's portrait of the ideal woman, but I do know that women would appear to be quite drawn by tough, dangerous looking guys. There are more posters of Snoop Doggy Dog in adolescent girls' rooms than of Bryant Gumble. Correct me if I'm wrong.
5129. Candide - 1/13/2000 1:05:56 AM
Rustler Pike
You're completely wrong. Well as far as I go you're wrong about liking tough dangerous guys. I always preferred bookish or artistic types meself.
And leaving nationality of attackers and victims out of it, notice who was doing the attacking?
And of course people are grateful to ALL those who save them, but it rarely seems to be bands of women attacking, burning and smashing does it?
I don't like any stereotype in bulk. No sex, race or class. Bad thinking I know.
I agree it is a silly argument finally.
That's how it is and that is that.
But I still worry when a man follows me after dark.
5130. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 2:02:26 AM
Candide:
Well as far as I go you're wrong about liking tough dangerous guys. I always preferred bookish or artistic types meself.
A lot of guys are both artistic, knowledgeable people and yet tough and dangerous to mess with. Some are even good people. Those are the kind you want with you so that you don't have to fear the guys following you in dark alleys.
And leaving nationality of attackers and victims out of it, notice who was doing the attacking?
And of course people are grateful to ALL those who save them, but it rarely seems to be bands of women attacking, burning and smashing does it?
There is no need for the women to do the smashing if their men can do it for them, now is there? Women have always encouraged men's aggressive behavior (not necessarily the same as violent, by the way), as long as they benefited from it. They always will.
I agree it would be nice if the Syrians all shaved off their mustaches and became nice and feminized. But that won't happen, now will it? Feminism seems only to work in 'have' societies, not 'have-not' societies. Arab women seem to have more to gain by encouraging their men's aggression towards the West than by selling out to the West, which would never share its wealth with them (their men would - and do!). And I remind you - the women themselves are as fanatic and fundamentalist as their men.
Even in a less fundamentalist Arab society like the Palestinian society, I don't see women expressing any more dovish opinions than men. Hanan Ashrawi and Suhah Arafat are not moderates. And come to think of it, neither was Golda Meir.
5131. Candide - 1/13/2000 2:16:17 AM
Rustler Pike
I would never preach at someone like you who lives on the razor's edge.
A lot of guys are both artistic, knowledgeable people and yet tough
and dangerous to mess with. Some are even good people. Those are
the kind you want with you so that you don't have to fear the guys
following you in dark alleys.
But women also enjoy solitude. I was warned by the police not to walk in my favourite park because women had been attacked there.
I know that all stereotypes are stupid. But sometimes women get tired of being frightened by men. No big deal. men frighten men too I know.
I particularly loathe the "We don't want to lose you, but we think you ought to go", type of woman.
In peace time in my part of the world, they watch men play cricket and applaud and applaud.
For what it's worth I've been with the same nice chap for many years. Yes he's bookish and artistic and he's good at carpentry too.
5132. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 2:20:52 AM
Someone please explain the lllama/Boston conflagration joke. I guess I'm a thicko.
5133. PincherMartin - 1/13/2000 3:08:43 AM
CalGal --
Message # 5111
Thanks for the link. On the basis of what is presented here, I would support such programs.
5134. PincherMartin - 1/13/2000 3:24:04 AM
CalGal -- Message # 5120
You can disapprove of the policy, but I see nothing in your analysis that makes this any different from offering crack addicts money to be sterilized. The one key difference (that it's the government) you haven't even mentioned.
5135. PincherMartin - 1/13/2000 3:40:32 AM
One of the most remarkable examples of a eugenic policy (never implemented) was one suggested by either a Japanese newspaper or one of the Meiji leaders in Japan. I am unable to find the source, but I remember quite clearly that Japanese women were to marry Western men and their offspring -- so the source reasoned -- would be able to help Japan out of its benighted state.
I have no information on how seriously anyone other than the writer took it (it was written in grave seriousness), but it is interesting to me that an opinion-maker in Japan of all places would make such a suggestion. If there is another major country in the world that takes as seriously the idea of the purity of the nation's bloodline, I don't know who it could be.
5136. RustlerPike - 1/13/2000 3:42:19 AM
Candide:
I'm not sure what you are saying, so I'm not sure we disagree. Basically, I guess, what I'm saying is blaming all the world's woes on testosterone worked well in the latter third of the 20th century, but it's beginning to sound more and more stale. I appreciate your occasional desire for solitude, but the last thing women seem to want is to be without men for longer than it takes to hold a decent kaffeeklatsch (sp?). As a matter of fact, women's lives - their very sense of self - seem to be centered around their relationships (or lack of) with men, much more exclusively so than men's lives are defined by their relationships with women.
I don't know where you live - England perhaps, judging by the fact that you are up at this hour and talking about cricket? Well - England was almost overrun by a horde of Teutons twice in the 20th century, so living on the razor's edge - and being saved by your men's bravery - is not peculiar to me or my country (remember the Battle of Britain?). And btw, when the English were fighting the Argentines over the Falklands, it was a woman who called the shots.
A question: in your parts, do they also play rugby? And do women totally despise that game, or is there an occasional woman in the bleachers getting her panties in a bunch as the men slam away at each other?
5137. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 4:00:19 AM
Har! About a week ago, I asked here if anyone would hazard a prediction on the outcome of the Russian presidential election... the only reaction was "Why Putin of course!"
A week is a long time.
What the Russian government needs to do, forthwith, is halt military operations, hand back the administration of Chechnya to its elected government, and quickly manufacture a war elsewhere. Then, Putin might still stand some chance of being elected.
5138. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 4:11:10 AM
Why do I feel so elated at the prospect of Putin and his gang coming badly unstuck? It won't bring back to life the thousands of people they are cynically murdering. It may well be a Bad Thing for Russian Stability (! ??) - But it would perhaps serve as an example.
5139. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 4:42:03 AM
Pseudopath: Message # 5095
The combination of these things suggest that French officials haven’t intended to protect Muslim women by their opposition to the headscarf. Rather, their motives have been far less noble...
Then you'd better spell out their ignoble designs, for those who don't know the details.
It's pretty disingenuous, in its own way, to compare the wearing of the foulard to the wearing of a crucifix or a star of David, which are a great deal less ostentatious. Were little Catholic girls to go to school every day wearing their First Communion outfits, then there would be a scandal, you can be sure. Never underestimate the hatred of the French educator class for organised catholicism.
There are obviously more reasons than one for opposing the wearing of the foulard in schools, and the usual, often hypocritical positions affirmed by the functionaries of the national education system are the prime reason why I was inclined, for a number of years, to support the right to wear it. In the long run, when there are respectable principled positions to be held on both sides of a conflict, it's generally useful to check out what's actually happening on a human level. Hence my change of view.
Your ‘fundamentalist Dads asserting their physical, moral and sartorial authority over their pubescent daughters’ may or may not be real, but they have certainly never figured in anybody’s decision-making.
- well, it's not spelled out in the decision making because there is no law against fathers keeping their daughters in line. However, the French national education system has the central role in building social cohesion, and is using whatever texts can be dredged up to fight the good fight.
5140. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 4:42:25 AM
The principles at stake are the good old standards of multiculturalism vs assimilationism. I've generally been a multiculturalist... up to a point. But in the end, this business of keeping women in a position of slavery, which is the explicit aim of islamic fundamentalists in France, is morally little better than circumcising girl babies.
Please don't waste your precious bandwidth replying to this... tell us about Russia.
5141. stostosto - 1/13/2000 4:43:22 AM
alistairconnor
You didn't offer any other predictions about Putin yourself, did you?
I presume you are referring to Pelle's comment at the time, something like "Putin will win, hands down", which nobody replied to. I thought about it, since it seemed a rather sweeping statement in a country as politically unstable as Russia. And if Putin's only claim to public support is his war luck in Chechnya, it appears a bit precarious.
That is also one reason I have been following developments in Chechnya, and I think the U-turn of some of the major Russian media may be a highly important development.
PE
Interesting comments on Russia - and straight from Volgograd, to boot! I hope you can find time to do more.
5142. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 4:50:45 AM
As a matter of fact, women's lives - their very sense of self - seem to be centered around their relationships (or lack of) with men, much more exclusively so than men's lives are defined by their relationships with women.
Without wishing to get personal, Russ, a man's views on women are obviously somewhat conditioned by the sort of women they hang out with. Personally, I can't see any sort of universal truth shining out of that paragraph - it just doesn't say anything to me that's relevant to my life.
Well maybe I'm wrong, and you're the guy who really Understands What Women Want. Heck, you should write a book about it.
5143. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 4:55:14 AM
Message # 5136 Well - England was almost overrun by a horde of Teutons twice in the 20th century
- you must know something about the First World War that I don't...
I could probably make a case for the defense of Britain in WWII being somewhat maternal in nature -- after all, the aggressive Vaterland was attacking the defensive Motherland -- but I'm feeling merciful tonight. Must be my feminine side.
5144. alistairConnor - 1/13/2000 5:01:13 AM
Sto,
Yes, I thought Pelle was being pretty adventurous at the time. My own desire was to stimulate debate, because I am absolutely clueless as to what the outcome of the presidential elections is likely to be, and I suspect that pretty well everyone else is too, including the principal protagonists!
Which is pretty frightening, really.
5145. stostosto - 1/13/2000 5:57:59 AM
PincherMartin:
I agree with most of your comments on Pinochet, but unlike your "surprise" at the call for a trial from both sides in the Chilean presidential campaign, I think there may be a straightforward explanation: Pinochet's rule simply wasn't as popular as his supporters think, including many right-wing western commentators who may have been lured into assuming so on the basis of whom his most loud opponents were. And, after all, he did lose the vote in 1990 after which he stepped down.
Sometimes the horrors of Pinochet are downplayed, since there were only 3,000 confirmed death victims, which then can be favourably compared to, say, Cuban numbers. But there was also a huge exodus from Chile which is equally telling of the terror of the regime. I can't find a source now, but I have read that more than 500,000 fled or were forced to flee. Out of a population of now 15m, then, perhaps 12m.
Pinochet's return will embarrass right in Chile's presidential poll
It's interesting that calls for Pinochet's trial scores well, politically in Chile, don't you think? Even many right wing Chileans obviously distance themselves from him.
(Quite apart from that, I think the Chileans ought to refrain from breaching the transition deal made with Pinochet cf. earlier comments).
5146. Candide - 1/13/2000 6:08:51 AM
Rustler Pike
You must know some real dorks of females. Yes a soul mate is a lovely thing BUT...women are individuals as well you know.
As a matter of fact, women's lives - their very
sense of self - seem to be centered around their relationships (or
lack of) with men, much more exclusively so than men's lives are
defined by their relationships with women.
Then why do statistics show that most divorces are initiated by women and that most men suffer more after a divorce?
I live in Australia, started in New Zealand and spent a goodish while in Britain and have been about a bit. I used cricket watching as an example of a kind of fawning attention an exploitive type of female uses on men. And then some women genuinely like cricket.
I hate rugby.
5147. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/13/2000 6:10:02 AM
Pincher Message # 5101:
Sorry, I should have said "interesting intellectually".
I was just teasing. I can see how "fascinating" would work for those outside.
Message # 5103:
I actually don't even know if Singapore practices this policy anymore (I read about it some five or six years ago, which is Asia as you know might as well be a lifetime ago). Based on Irv's comments, I assumed they did.
I haven't read of it for a similar length of time, and assumed it was still in force. But I don't know for sure.
5148. Candide - 1/13/2000 6:14:47 AM
Rustler Pike
I don't envy you being a man. I think being a man nowadays must be tough.
5149. stostosto - 1/13/2000 6:18:27 AM
Candide
Oh, yes. You have no idea.
5150. Candide - 1/13/2000 6:25:25 AM
stostosto
There there.
5151. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 6:30:20 AM
The Haaretz newspaper has obtained and published the draft peace treaty proposed by the US.
5152. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 6:41:06 AM
Let's keep the chat out of this thread, shall we?
5153. Candide - 1/13/2000 6:49:15 AM
Draft Peace Treaty it is then. Well it would have been but the darn thing won't open.
5154. Candide - 1/13/2000 6:51:41 AM
I'm sorry Pelle. We were actually cementing relations across the ocean as it were, having begun in a more orthodox and on-thread manner. It won't happen again Sah!
5155. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 7:00:26 AM
Candide
It opens in a new window.
5156. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 7:04:30 AM
Hardship in Baghdad - fashion show at the Grand Hotel.
5157. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:05:07 AM
There's a story today by the Guardian's Moscow correspondent saying that Putin is going to 'beef up' the Russian secret service and model it on the FBI. According to the story it's part of a plan to restore Russia's former glory.
5158. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:09:19 AM
And I was frivolous?
Still Baghdad! Well the rich have always been OK there haven't they — as long as they survive that is.
5159. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:10:19 AM
I opened the Guardian from my own bookmarks.
5160. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:16:25 AM
As Stephen F. Cohen wrote in these pages, "so great has been
Russia's economic and thus social catastrophe that we must
now speak of another unprecedented development: the literal
demodernization of a twentieth-century country."
This is from an article in The Nation. It looks good. I'll read it tomorrow. It's available in Politics I think. That or Current Affairs. Must dash. Be back tomorrow.
5161. RickNelson - 1/13/2000 7:58:25 AM
Rustler,
Yes, east. But, description does not exclude northeast. The reference comes from a televangelist Jimi Swaggert. One who was dethroned. The source is definitely the one referenced.
Candide,
Subliminally I suppose I meant Moties who reply. Yet at the time it was in general terms. I cannot consider all Moties who reply as my role models. My expression was to emotional in that case, I have no other elloquent way to express what I mean though.
PE,
Though I do not wholely argue, I cannot see that following what is common practice for opening speeches in the U.S. school system should be ones criterion during introduction. I think that women should open her speech as is customary to her within context of her culture, education and audience. With the qualifier that it must be tasteful and to some degree practiced elsewhere. Elsewhere to include any other countries school system. To disallow a culturally motivated introduction commonly practiced elsewhere is what I object to. I find that to be closed minded administrative policy.
Btw, best wishes to you and yours.
5162. RickNelson - 1/13/2000 7:59:50 AM
women = woman
5163. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 8:23:49 AM
Candide
I meant that the Haaretz link in my Message # 5151 opens in a new browser window.
5164. ButterfieldSwire - 1/13/2000 8:24:14 AM
1. Thanks to Irving Snodgrass and Pincher Martin for the information.
a. IS - I find it surprising that Malaysia has subsidies for high birth rates among Malays. My stereotype is that Muslim populations have high birthrates even at high income levels. But that might just be the effect of high oil incomes in the Persian Gulf.
b. Pinch - I would be against paying working class women for sterilization. On the other hand, I wouldn't exactly be marching in the streets. It occurs to me that someone who would forego having children for $10K probably shouldn't be having children.
2. I also don't find any of your arguments compelling. IrvingSnodgrass and Candide find the fact that any subsidies for the well-educated would worsen income distribution to be overwhelming. I don't. Well educated people have fewer children than less educated people, in part, because the prime educational years overlap with the prime child bearing years. A free market policy is thus a policy which inherently discourages reproduction among well educated people. A policy, such as Singapore's, which is more neutral amongst educational choices for reproduction sounds better to me.
5165. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 8:30:46 AM
Please note that the Haaretz article includes notes showing the Israeli and Syrian positions where they disagree.
Also note that there are no objections to Artice III "Normal Peaceful Relations" although some areas are identified as subjects for further consideration and discussion. Israel wants a time table for the establishment of normal relations.
One of the big sticking points is likely to be Israel's demand that the settler should be allowed to stay after the hand-over. I assume they are on land that was formerly farmed by Syrians.
5166. Dantheman - 1/13/2000 8:52:15 AM
Pelle,
Thanks for posting the draft peace treaty. I was amused by Syria's suggestion that Mt. Harmon would be operated jointly by the US and France. Even in the incredibly unlikely circumstance that the Israelis would allow that crucial monitoring post to be run by anyone other than themselves, the last country the Israelis would choose would be the Frogs.
RP #5132,
The three-l lllama joke plays off the Boston accent. They would pronounce three-alarmer (i.e., a fire which requires three separate calls for firemen) that way.
5167. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 9:54:06 AM
This from today's Financial Times, with an amusing Freudian slip:
Israel wants Golan settlers to stay
Israel wants Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights to
remain in their homes should it cede the strategic
plateau to Syria in a future peace treaty, according to
news reports. It said the condition was part of a draft
peace treaty, submitted by the US to Syria and Israel in
Shepherdstow, West Virginia, where the sides held a
second round of peace talks last week. Although
effectively confirming the voracity of the document, the
office of Ehud Barak, Israeli prime minisiter, called it a
"preliminary US paper which is not binding, and
concerning which, Israel has passed on many
comments".
5168. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 10:51:29 AM
Hi Bruce,
I don't recall seeing you here before. Welcome and keep posting!
5169. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 11:28:29 AM
Thank you. I have been here before, but briefly.
5170. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 11:34:03 AM
Thank you. I have been here before, but briefly.
5171. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 11:35:03 AM
Thank you. I have been here before, but now it looks like I will be sticking around forever.
5172. stostosto - 1/13/2000 11:39:16 AM
Hi Bruce
Welcome from me too!
I look forward to your contributions.
Would you mind starting by explaining the Freudian slip in your post above? I must confess it went over my thick head.
(I assume this one isn't to do with Boston accents...).
5173. Dantheman - 1/13/2000 11:39:35 AM
Welcome, Bruce. You don't need to stick around forever. We allow you time off for sleeping and potty breaks. (g)
5174. Dantheman - 1/13/2000 11:41:09 AM
sto-cubed
I think it's the veracity/voracity mistake.
5175. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 11:41:21 AM
Thank you. I have been here before, but now it looks like I will be sticking around forever.
5176. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 11:42:03 AM
I'm not going to say anything else.
5177. Bruce Dodds - 1/13/2000 11:42:55 AM
Sorry about the double posts.
5178. Dusty - 1/13/2000 11:43:26 AM
Welcome Bruce!!
5179. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 12:08:22 PM
Yesterday I promised to explain agoniste. This term was coined by PseudoErasmus to describe Scandinivians (later renamed Herringstanis) whom PE considers to be well-meaning wimps who agonise a lot about things they can do little about, support "good" causes, and now and then put on sensible shoes to march behind banners which declare that the people behind them are for something or against something, mostly against.
5180. ScottLoar - 1/13/2000 12:10:35 PM
Bruce Dodds;
You seem to be a man of few words (said again and again). Feel free to expand.
5181. ScottLoar - 1/13/2000 12:16:43 PM
PelleNilsson;
Why that's fascinating. Please keep us posted on further developments. Are there many here wishing to incorporate such things into their vocabulary?
5182. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 12:27:39 PM
Well, ScottLoar, it was one of your recent posts which inspired that little aside.
5183. CalGal - 1/13/2000 12:54:14 PM
Pincher,
My own reason for disapproving of Singapore's policy is that it's mistaken to think you can improve the human race (or just the human race within your own borders) by giving incentives and disincentives to particular socioeconomic classes of people to have babies.
Um. This sounds like you're saying "Eugenics is fine, but for heaven's sake, make sure you pick a successful method!" Would you be happier if they tested for talent throughout the income strata and incent those women to have babies?
Personally, I think it's a mistake to try and improve the human race. Utter waste of time. I think there are plenty of other more practical reasons to incent or disincent women to have babies based on their education or income.
As for your other point--Many societies would probably be willing to trade off a few artists for fewer overall children being raised in horrendous conditions by incompetent parents. And that's assuming that you could point to anyone born in the last 30 years who has come out of the inner cities or poverty-ridden rural areas to achieve anything other then repeat the cycle.
I agree with all of Butter's posts as well.
5184. PincherMartin - 1/13/2000 1:45:23 PM
CalGal --
My reply to you is in the Slow Thread. (Butter, please join us.)
5185. Candide - 1/13/2000 3:04:19 PM
PelleNilsson
While it is true I've done a bit of "Agonisteising", it is also true that our activities changed the stand of our government. More than once.
I will tell a personal anecdote involving major name dropping which at once makes my point and confirms my status as a SPECIES.
I had a face off with Alva Myrdal at a meeting about this very issue.
She had come to Australia in the early 80s to address the Australian peace movement among other things. There had, at that time been a great deal of surging around the streets with banners and in Europe the same tactics had begun to be used by those with the opposite point of view and I had seen the writing on the wall.
I stood up at that meeting and suggested that instead of marching around the streets we should organise more intelligently and form a political group.
Then I said the fatal words :"Anyone can form a mob".
Alva Myrdal turned a withering gaze on me and said:"I have never seen a mob. "I have only seen the people expressing their views collectively."
Collapse of Candide. Everyone looked at me as though I had just joined the Nazis.
To cut the story short we went on to form the 'Nuclear Disarmament Party" which went on to cause the prime minister of the day to panic and give us more publicity than we would otherwise have got.Before the party self-destructed a few idiotic schemes involving missile tests in the Tasman were hastily dropped by the government, we got one excellrnt senator into power and established the rock-star/lawyer-environmentalist Peter Garrett as a serious individual in the political and environmental field, and trained a future head of Greenpeace whose name has completely passed from my breakfastless brain. Paul something. He didn't last long in Greenpeace because he wanted to involve industry and that was unacceptable to others in the organisation.
5186. Candide - 1/13/2000 3:32:03 PM
http://www.TheNation.com/
PRESIDENT PUTIN
An editorial in the current 'Nation'. URL above.
excerpt:
And while elements of democracy still exist,
most left over from the Gorbachev years, Yeltsin undermined
others, first by using tanks to shell an elected Parliament in
1993 and then by pushing through an authoritarian
constitution, available to any would-be dictator. The Russian
media were freer in the early nineties than they are today. As
was apparent in the December parliamentary elections,
national television is controlled by intertwined oligarchic and
government interests, while the largest newspapers are the
playthings of competing tycoons with enormous influence in
the Kremlin. In short, Yeltsin's legacy to his anointed
successor, acting President Vladimir Putin, is an embittered,
polarized, impoverished nation.
5187. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 3:51:09 PM
Candide
Good story. Great dropping.
Since this thread also serves as the travel thread, here is an interesting piece of trivia about your former home country.
In the town of Kawakawa in nothern NZ there is a public toilet designed by the Austrian artist Fritz Hundertwasser (1928-). It is said to draw busloads of German-speaking tourists.
Here is another design of Hundertwasser's: 
5188. Candide - 1/13/2000 4:09:54 PM
We know all about that down here in Zorkon. (CalGal's airy description of my location). He's been part of the furniture for years.
5189. Candide - 1/13/2000 4:11:57 PM
The Greenpeace head was Paul Guilding.
5190. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 4:13:58 PM
Who can provide a picture of this famous toilet?
5191. Dantheman - 1/13/2000 4:18:04 PM
A modest proposal to warm Candide's heart
5192. Candide - 1/13/2000 4:26:25 PM
Dantheman
It's beautiful! Thank you.
Bleaters of the world unite.
5193. janjon - 1/13/2000 4:28:14 PM
Dan - that was positively brilliant. Hear, hear.
5194. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 4:32:40 PM
Dantheman
Nice piece.
sto
Reports from the Danish immigration debate start to appear in the press here. I didn't realise it is that ugly.
5195. Candide - 1/13/2000 4:37:42 PM
Pelle
Can The Nation be included with other journals in the banana strip? And without being segregated as though it had the clap?
5196. ScottLoar - 1/13/2000 4:59:54 PM
I posted this in The Slow Thread but do so here for the edification of at least one or two:
Incent and disincent are crude substitutes for encourage and discourage. I am surprised that you seemingly literate people have tolerated these crudities. Next is X-centric which rivals the examples above in pretense; all are simply silly.
5197. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 5:04:47 PM
Candide
What is The Nation (apart from being a newspaper)? Please provide URL.
5198. Dantheman - 1/13/2000 5:11:01 PM
Pelle,
Didn't Candide post it in #5186?
5199. alistairconnor - 1/13/2000 5:12:42 PM
I can't find a picture of the finished Kawakawa loo (if indeed it's finished). Here is the artist, and the work in progress: 
Tell you what, I should be driving through Kawakawa in a month or so, I'll take a picture and post it here.
As for the artist's name: I believe he was born Friedreich Hundertwasser, and changed it to Friedensreich. The paper calls him "Frederick"; but surely not Fritz.
5200. SnowOwl - 1/13/2000 5:21:20 PM
When I was young Kawakawa's main claim to fame was that the railroad ran down the middle of the main street. I recall spending a few days there and going to the local picture theature, which was really just a hall. We had to take chairs from the hotel we were staying in so we could be seated through the film.
5201. SnowOwl - 1/13/2000 5:23:05 PM
I might have gone to the theature, I also went to the theatre.
5202. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 5:32:27 PM
Candide
As Dantheman pointed out you did post the URL. It seems to be full of left-wing hackery. I'll link it but not tonight. Or sto will do it, he's often up and around later than I am.
Alistair
I'll hold you to that. And take a few pictures of the trains too. I'm a moderate railway buff.
All
Do click on the photo to the right. It takes you to a wonderfully naive article about the loo-in-being.
5203. Indiana Jones - 1/13/2000 5:36:33 PM
The Nation is linked off Politics. Does it need to be linked here as well?
Given the thread topic, its name would seem oxymoronic.
5204. PelleNilsson - 1/13/2000 5:43:50 PM
Indiana
That's true. But there are many around here who never post in Politics and perhaps do not visit either.
5205. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:01:12 PM
http://www.TheNation.com/
Its an American current affairs and political magazine that has produced some great writing and thinking. It is considered to be 'of the left' but it's much better than something that can be categorised like that. Some of the best international writers write for it.
5206. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:03:26 PM
Many left-wing hacks would repudiate Christopher Hitchens, a regular writer in that publication.
5207. Candide - 1/13/2000 7:28:35 PM
I looked at this edition (Nation)and its far more as Pelle decribed than it often is. I still think that it should be here.
5208. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/13/2000 9:14:36 PM
Candide:
Then I said the fatal words :"Anyone can form a mob". Alva Myrdal turned a withering gaze on me and said:"I have never seen a mob. "I have only seen the people expressing their views collectively."
It's too bad Alva wasn't in Jakarta in May, 1998. The group of people expressing their views collectively mindlessly burned down buildings (with hundreds of people inside), raped dozens of Chinese women, killed over 1000 people, and looted and burned thousands of buildings and cars. Sure looked like a mob to me.
5209. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/13/2000 9:20:49 PM
Oops.
5210. Candide - 1/13/2000 9:21:30 PM
Irving Snodgrass
I absolutely agree.
I was devastated at the time. I felt like a fundamentalist Christian being expelled from the true church. I didn't think I was wrong. I just had no way of communicating with the "mob".
5211. Candide - 1/13/2000 9:27:34 PM
IrvingSnodgrass
I haven't told you this before, but before my foul-mouthed neighbour moved into the adjoining house, a really nice, pleasant couple with a child lived there. He worked for a big American bank and was promoted to Jakarta. All the Americans fled and left him more or less in charge.
When 'the balloon went up' their adored daughter was at the International School, he was at the office and she was at home. People in foreign cars were getting attacked and the children couldn't leave the school. The husband made it home but was in a state of horror and said he had seen things he could never have believed possible. The daughter was smuggled home about 24 hours later. The mother said it was the worst 24 hours of her entire life.
They now live in neat, repressive Singapore and think it's paradise.
5212. Candide - 1/13/2000 9:33:35 PM
IrvingSnodgrass
I meant to add apropos the Fijian coup, that most of the material in the fine document that you linked has New Zealand sources. I was in telephone communication with Owen Wilkes who was a very wealthy peace activist. Funnily enough, many peace activists thought that he was CIA. I had no reason to do so.
The missing material is Australian, which may to some extent account for its absence — allowing for lack of sufficient evidence, although I believe the evidence was well tested.
5213. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/13/2000 10:01:45 PM
Candide:
I was in Jakarta through the horrors of the May riots, and I'll never forget them. But I don't understand your comment about "foreign cars"... all cars here are imported. The main targets in the riots were Chinese (in and out of cars) and luxury cars (plus the "Timor," a Korean car with an Indonesian name, sold by Tommy Suharto). One interesting fact... no foreigners were hurt in Jakarta during the rioting in May 1998, but 5 died in accidents in Singapore where they had been evacuated to escape the rioting.
5214. Candide - 1/13/2000 10:08:37 PM
IrvingSnodgrass.
The last piece of information is very ironical. Perhaps my friend meant large chauffeur-driven cars. Perhaps it was all just part of their panic.
I'm so sorry that you went through that experience. I can only try to imagine what effect it would have on one's view of things in general.
I do envy the 19th century idealists who thought that humans were evolving into something finer and nobler. I wish I could convince myself that that is the case.
I can't remember the American source of :"I have seen the enemy and it is us".
5215. wonkers2 - 1/13/2000 10:46:59 PM
Pogo? Peanuts? Clinton?
5216. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/14/2000 2:34:00 AM
wonkers:
It's a pleasure to see you around here. It would be even more of a pleasure to see you participating actively in this thread.
Candide Message # 5212:
I would imagine Ewins used mostly references from NZ because that is where most studies of Fiji are produced. Since he is an Australian, and published the article in Australia (at ANU), I don't think he would overlook Australian sources which withstand a rigorous academic scrutiny.
Here is Ewins's biodata (from the article):
Rory Ewins is a graduate of the University of Tasmania, the University of Cambridge, and the Australian National University, where he gained his Ph.D. in Political Science at the Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies. In 1997 he was a Research Scholar at the Macmillan Brown Centre for Pacific Studies, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand, where he completed his book Changing Their Minds: Tradition and Politics in Contemporary Fiji and Tonga. He is now Adviser on IT Policy to the Australian Vice-Chancellors' Committee.
5217. Candide - 1/14/2000 3:06:26 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
I'm totally impressed. Especially by Canterbury University, scene of my wanton youth. Did you know that Karl Popper taught there once and that Ernest Rutherford worked there in a basement laboratory that still existed in my day and which one walked past to enter the main gate to the quadrangle of the old university? It always looked like something where Faust might have made his pact with the devil. Associations with the BOMB.
I still think Ewin should have a chat with David Marr. Allow me to harbour my paranoid theory until proved wrong.
5218. Candide - 1/14/2000 3:09:46 AM
Wonkers2
It was some such character (if Clinton may be included). Not Archie the cockroach but a comic commentator, almost certainly a cartoon creature.
5219. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/14/2000 3:17:22 AM
Candide:
Yes, Canterbury University has a gloried history. Is it true that it has gone downhill in recent years?
I'd be surprised if Ewins is not familiar with Marr's work already. The fact that your theories are not mentioned by Ewins does not mean they are incorrect... it merely means that there isn't enough evidence to prove them to the standard required by academia. The CIA isn't known for leaving much evidence, so your theories could still be correct.
5220. Candide - 1/14/2000 3:29:49 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
I've lost touch with Canterbury. Actually I lost interest when it shifted from its lovely old home in the heart of the city, many years ago, while I was still hanging round there, and moved out to Ilam into one of those huge cold industrial looking places. Landscaped and tasteful though. Not anything as hideous as New South Wales University which is quite the most dreadful university campus I know. A hideous city. Canterbury may have gained a heart again.
When I went to Oxford(as a singer not a student) it reminded me (as Canterbury had intended it should) of the old Christchurch city/college atmosphere.
Canterbury was people on bicycles and students reclining by the river surrounded by weeping willows grown from cuttings from those on Napoleon's tomb. Very romantic and slow. Anyone with half a personality became a personality. There was space for development.
5221. stostosto - 1/14/2000 3:44:20 AM
Good morning everybody.
I have started the day by putting in a new link: 
Requested by Candide.
5222. PelleNilsson - 1/14/2000 3:46:28 AM
Funny. I had just logged in to do the same.
5223. Candide - 1/14/2000 3:48:06 AM
Socialist hacks and bleaters eat away like weevils at the pristine heart of the Mote.
This isn't one of the most brilliant editions but the editorial about Putin's Russia and the Christopher Hitchens story about the elections in the sidebar are worth reading. If the rest makes people mad, well that is a good emetic process. It's a great mistake to only read the people with whom one agrees.
5224. Candide - 1/14/2000 3:52:01 AM
HTTP ERROR 404
404 NOT FOUND
http://www.TheNation.com/
5225. stostosto - 1/14/2000 3:53:31 AM
And for those of you who may wonder: You are encouraged to propose good, relevant, interesting, preferably international sources on the web as permanent links available from this thread.
I don't know that any such proposals have been rejected so far. And I think that there is room for more.
5226. Candide - 1/14/2000 3:54:06 AM
Sto stostosto?
5227. stostosto - 1/14/2000 3:56:15 AM
Sorry Candide. Try it now.
5228. Candide - 1/14/2000 4:12:03 AM
'L'Espresso' Italian current affairs weekly which is connected tothe newspaper 'La Repubblica' Umbert Eco often writes for it among others.
http://www.espressoedit.kataweb.it/
I see that 'The Nation' has sneaked in a new edition since I last looked. I was given the message above when I tried to get it from the Mote.
5229. Candide - 1/14/2000 4:13:23 AM
OK stostosto
'L'Espresso' and 'La Repubblica' are in Italian
5230. Candide - 1/14/2000 4:22:11 AM
I must now depart. Goodnight all.
5231. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 5:43:23 AM
Alistair:
Without wishing to get personal, Russ, a man's views on women are obviously somewhat conditioned by the sort of women they hang out with.
You just did get personal, and in an underhand sort of way. If you want to say something extremely objectionable, bigoted and stupid, go ahead and say it directly. You think I hang around the wrong sort of women? What do you know about the woman in my life, Alistair? That she's African and therefore somehow... what? Come out and say it, my boy. Be proud of what you are.
Candide:
Then why do statistics show that most divorces are initiated by women and that most men suffer more after a divorce?
Ah - that's easy. Because, like you said, it ain't easy being a man nowadays. The present divorce laws and the feminist social mores which have become prevalent in the West are heavily biased against men, making divorce quite a tempting, easy option for women (almost an opportunity for advancement, I'd say. A great career move...) and an unmitigated disaster for men. Make one or two simple changes in the laws, and a couple of more changes in the general attitudes people hold on the subject, and divorce will become a much rarer thing.
5232. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 5:45:11 AM
Are you guys sure that's Kawakawa? Kakawawa is a lot more fitting.
5233. Dantheman - 1/14/2000 8:52:09 AM
Clinton's forthcoming visit to the sub-continent
5234. stostosto - 1/14/2000 9:29:09 AM
This from l'espresso: 
Just to balance pellenilsson's "Iraqi" post yesterday.
5235. stostosto - 1/14/2000 9:49:53 AM
Candide:
L'Espresso is a worthy read. Even if you don't speak much Italian.
An excerpt: 
5236. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 9:58:17 AM
Wow, this place has been hopping since I last checked in. And I see that Pseuder is in fine form.
My subcon link of the day: here
I've linked this guy's stuff before. He's my paranoiac anti-Sino demagogue of choice and always always amusing.
5237. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 10:00:52 AM
Oh jesus, I may have to go on another spree of photos after the worthy efforts of our Skandie hosts.
Only trouble is, I believe I've forgotten how to link photos. What is it again? < img src ="url" >?
5238. stostosto - 1/14/2000 10:02:51 AM
(I can't believe I really posted that..!)
5239. stostosto - 1/14/2000 10:04:26 AM
marj
check the HTML hints
it's < img src="(picture's url)" >
5240. ButterfieldSwire - 1/14/2000 10:09:15 AM
Speaking of Italian chicks, Italian women have the lowest fertility rates among the OECD, and they also have the lowest labor participation rates. I'm just wondering what they do with thmeselves all day (those who aren't appearing in L'Espresso in underwear you could take off with your teeth, that is).
5241. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 10:16:49 AM
Italian girls, oh Italian girls. Sto can comment, I'm sure.
I made myself into a palm reader in Italy one summer, with the express purpose of getting close to the girls. Sounds cheesy, worked like a charm.
5242. PelleNilsson - 1/14/2000 10:16:54 AM
Things do easily get out of hand here.
5243. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 10:29:35 AM
Come on, Uncle Pelle, that photo linked by your co-host must do SOMETHING for you. I can't imagine why it's in the newspaper, but I'm glad for that wake-up call this morning.
5244. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 10:38:27 AM
On the topic of international women, I've noticed that Swedish women in particular are drawn to men of color. Then again, maybe they're just drawn to men in general.
Any comments on this phenomenon Pelle?
5245. ScottLoar - 1/14/2000 10:53:07 AM
She's nice. Very nice (reveries begin).
5246. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 11:05:00 AM
Loar, stostosto,
Wonderful way to start the day, don't you think? I'm counting on our host to produce such an image every morning. These things really get me working.
5247. ScottLoar - 1/14/2000 11:09:48 AM
The picture prompts an Italian saying, cicca bella (which I may have misspelled), pretty flesh.
I ache.
5248. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 11:25:22 AM
When is that girl going to uncross her arms?
Loar,
I ache too.
5249. stostosto - 1/14/2000 11:31:46 AM
Sorry to have inflicted such pain.
5250. marjoribanks - 1/14/2000 11:36:38 AM
Sto,
You good fellow, are there any more such images in your arsenal? If so, please give us one a day, I don't think I can handle any more than that.
5251. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 11:43:13 AM
After all, we all must stay abreast of the news here.
5252. stostosto - 1/14/2000 6:08:04 PM
marj, my eager young man.
I am thinking this was a one time thing. But you can go here and see for yourself.
There are other pictures.
But don't forget: The only reason I was exploring the site was because Candide said Umberto Eco writes in it.
Aren't you just dying to read him in his original language?
5253. CalGal - 1/14/2000 6:22:40 PM
No, I think we need some pictures more appropriate to the tone and mood of this thread. This is how I picture Pelle: 
5254. CalGal - 1/14/2000 6:24:43 PM
And could Mr. March be our own Scott Loar? 
5255. PelleNilsson - 1/14/2000 6:31:48 PM
Very good CalGal!
5256. CalGal - 1/14/2000 6:34:19 PM
Hashke, after a particularly good pun: 
5257. ScottLoar - 1/14/2000 6:41:26 PM
CalGal, my member is not so easily concealed, my face is younger, more handsomely proportioned, yet shows far more character than that pixillated dude you've thrown up. So, too, I swim a mile four times weekly. I do concede the attitude is almost right.
5258. ScottLoar - 1/14/2000 6:43:02 PM
Perhaps you, CalGal, would care to toss up a few candid shots of yourself, or dare you leave that to our efforts?
5259. CalGal - 1/14/2000 6:45:31 PM
And this one I just had to share: 
5260. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 7:02:50 PM
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Great stuff!
5261. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 7:05:34 PM
Scott Loar --
CalGal, my member is not so easily concealed...
Of course, CalGal was unable to post my face and member here out of fear that you older gentlemen would recognize the sad fact that some things don't get better with age.
5262. stostosto - 1/14/2000 7:09:53 PM
CalGal
That picture really captures pelle. And that little cow next to him is such a nice touch.
5263. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 7:27:30 PM
I particularly like Hashke's Dionysiac pose.
The strategically placed bunch of grapes (really, just a handful) is quite funny.
5264. CalGal - 1/14/2000 7:48:11 PM
Thank you all, but I must say the work made me....hungry. 
Playgirl Centerfold, April 1999
That'll do for a start.
5265. stostosto - 1/14/2000 7:51:39 PM
I have decided that there is a case for putting up a link to 
Umberto Eco occasionally writes in it, you know.
5266. stostosto - 1/14/2000 7:52:47 PM
CalGal
I was wondering when you were going to do me.
5267. CalGal - 1/14/2000 7:58:22 PM
Sto,
Frankly, you're much hotter than this guy.
And you need to brush up on your American vernacular.
5268. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 8:00:57 PM
Frankly, you're much hotter than this guy.
Jesus Christ, you've got an overly high opinion of geeks in black turtlenecks, don't you?
5269. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:01:14 PM
Eddie is most definitely trying real hard to hold something in. Nobody has butt muscles that tight.
5270. stostosto - 1/14/2000 8:01:40 PM
Brush up on my what? Please, Cal. This is a decent place.
5271. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 8:02:03 PM
Pelle's going to be pissed off when he wakes up tomorrow and sees my backside splashed all over his thread.
5272. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:06:58 PM
I also wanted to ask - since when are members measured in their flaccid state? That would be like giving the length of a radio antenna when it is tucked in, or of a model airplane in its box, or of a snakes' overall diameter when it is curled up... As a proud member of the compact-when-stored class, I object.
5273. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:07:53 PM
Sto:
'do me' means...
5274. CalGal - 1/14/2000 8:09:02 PM
Pincher,
Yes. It is a sad failing of mine. I am not overly enamored of musclebound hunks. Although Ben Affleck has considerable appeal, I confess.
Sto,
"Do me" has certain connotations you probably didn't intend.
5275. stostosto - 1/14/2000 8:12:20 PM
Well, Pike.
Look at the flaccid size as a floor value. It may get a lot bigger, but isn't going to be smaller.
5276. stostosto - 1/14/2000 8:15:22 PM
Hmmm.
"Do me" has certain connotations you probably didn't intend.
Probably not. Or perhaps it was one of those Freudian flips..?
5277. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:16:44 PM
Ah, but I think we were getting side tracked. Here is something more on subject, to me anyways.
5278. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:20:21 PM
Here's one of me with Sophia Loren: 
5279. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:22:03 PM
Sto: you mean Freudian lips, don't you?
5280. CalGal - 1/14/2000 8:22:10 PM
Pike,
That's not international.
5281. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:23:17 PM
That's such a touching photo of Marilyn. I'd never seen it before.
5282. CalGal - 1/14/2000 8:25:19 PM
Sto,
Were I to meet you, pounce upon you, strip you naked, and proceed to have my way with you, and were you to find this a agreeable idea but wanted to maintain a certain degree of sangfroid, "I was wondering when you were going to do me" would be a suitable remark for the occasion.
5283. stostosto - 1/14/2000 8:28:06 PM
CalGal
Shh... Don't rub it in. Not so hard, anyway.
Rustler
I had no idea circumcision could do that to you.
5284. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 8:35:51 PM
Sto: yes, circumcision is a cruel practice. I didn't do it to my son, and I'm pleased with myself.
Cal:
Don't be such a spoil-sport. Besides, what could be more international than Marilyn and Sophia?
5285. stostosto - 1/14/2000 8:52:45 PM
It's too late here, I've got to go to bed.
Isn't it equally late in Israel, by the way?
Oh, and Rustler: Congratulations with your Danish football coach! Just ask if you want me to fill you in on him. He is a peculiar fellow.
I also wanted to say that I have saved a newspaper article with a hilarious reportage from the Israel-Denmark match. The reporting guy is Jewish, which adds a funny angle to it. Unfortunately it's in Danish, but if you are going to be around - which I very much hope - I can translate and post some of the highlights.
5286. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 9:01:31 PM
Sto:
Yes, I'd love that (everything you offered). Did you guys hear about the call-girl scandal after the match with your team?
Actually it is fucking 4:00 AM here. I slept during the day and woke up in the middle of the night. Since I had work to do - I decided to do it, as this is a good time to get things done. The kids get pretty quiet these hours...
5287. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 9:02:43 PM
Anyhow, we'll talk later...
5288. Indiana Jones - 1/14/2000 9:20:11 PM
Alright, people. You don't want to start with the skin shots--I've got a collection that will bring the server to its knees.
Let's just link...especially those showing half-nude octogenerians.
5289. alistairconnor - 1/14/2000 9:34:25 PM
Rustler,
I am sorry for the offense my post gave you, it was a clumsy effort. However my motives are very far removed from those you want to stick on me. None of the African women I know fit your stereotype of being defined by the men in their lives, and I'm obviously not in a position to know whether or not it is true of your wife.
5290. RustlerPike - 1/14/2000 10:02:39 PM
OK alistair, we all blunder sometimes. Let me assure you I would not spend my life with a woman who was not both brilliant and fiercely proud, a natural genius who besides being extremely funny and completely beautiful is a wonderful friend, partner, wife and mother, and an all-around feast to be around. I don't think anyone has ever had such a wonderful wife.
Just because one is not PC does not mean one is a domineering, unloving, arrogant asshole. Quite the contrary. But I do think men should be hard and women should be soft. I think it is feminist-age relationships that are often marked by quite ugly female domineering and male submission and emasculation. This I find to be somehow against the grain of nature, and more importantly, unworkable, as the 50%+ divorce rate should show us.
5291. Candide - 1/14/2000 10:34:58 PM
stostosto 5238
I can't believe I gave you the URL that enabled you to post that!
L'Espresso has always had AMAZING covers but it contains some really interesting articles. I once went to a first-night production of a play by a gay friend and collected my latest edition of L'Espresso on the way. The cover had two bare male bums on it with the word SIDS (AIDS) printed across them. I sweated the whole evening trying to keep it rolled up with the cover inside.
5292. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 10:37:57 PM
Marjori Banks -- Message # 5236
The article by Rajeev Srinivasan is outstanding. Opinionated and largely accurate, I can't disagree with any of his main points, even if some of his descriptions of how he arrived at them are a little suspect.
5293. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 10:45:16 PM
Irv --
What do you think of this article:
Holbrooke warns Indonesian Military
5294. Candide - 1/14/2000 10:52:22 PM
http://www.repubblica.it/
This is the URL of the really good newspaperLa Repubblica that is associated with L'Espresso
marjoribanks
The Indian article was very interesting but the last bitabout the bomb tests made me fume a little. There was an indication that one could send an email to the author but when I searched all I could see was a list of more of his articles.
All I hope is that he encounters Arundhati Roy.
5295. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 11:06:45 PM
To all you Europhiles --
Many times in this forum I have made the argument that America's economic structure is superior to Europe's (and that's anywhere in Europe, despite the great diversity among the different European states); and that in comparison to Europe, American firms quickly exploited new technologies, created more jobs, and that the American financial firms were more productive in supplying capital to the high growth sectors of the economy.
Most of you have pooh-poohed this notion, complaining that it only reflected my American bias. I knew this was not the case, since many of the strongest critics of the European way of doing business were Europeans.
Here is an article which confirms what I've been saying: European firms simply cannot compete against American firms and the reason they cannot compete is because of the way Europeans have organized their economies. What's most relevant is that the Europeans know it, and are thinking of what steps they must now take to regain competitiveness.
Europe can't match U.S. Techno-boom
5296. PincherMartin - 1/14/2000 11:12:53 PM
Sto has argued that Europe's economic performance in the decade of the 90s has been similar to America's (and that, therefore, I'm mistaken in arguing that there has been a change in the economic paradigm by pointing to the US economy's performance during that time).
Here is what the article reports the Spanish Prime Minister said of the relative performance during that time: "In Europe we are being left behind, for we have not been capable of reproducing the successes achieved on the other side of the Atlantic in the 1990s."
5297. CalGal - 1/14/2000 11:13:00 PM
Candide,
Does it have any naked men in it?
5298. Candide - 1/14/2000 11:36:38 PM
CalGal
Those photos! A-mazing. A calendar?
5299. Candide - 1/14/2000 11:40:36 PM
Sorry. Tried to post something that wouldn't behave itself. I modified it but to no avail.
5300. Candide - 1/14/2000 11:44:53 PM
PincherMartin
I haven't yet read your link about comparative "success", but I will. May a flabby liberal bleater modestly suggest that there other ways to measure a successfully run country? I'm sure you would agree with that already anyway.
5301. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:00:24 AM
PincherMartin
A wee whiff of Triumphalism wafted from the screen.
Why do so many Europeans vacation in Europe?
5302. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:02:03 AM
Damn.
Computer problems confused me.
Why do so many AMERICANS vacation in Europe?
5303. CalGal - 1/15/2000 12:07:21 AM
Because they finally put McDonalds and Burger King in most of the major cities.
5304. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:22:48 AM
Only one thing, other than the seriousness of the issue, worries me about Holbrooke's warning to the Indonesian military. He said:
"We are now in the 21st century".
No we're not.
5305. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:32:53 AM
I tried to post a local story reprinted from the 'Guardian' that was emailed to me without a URL. I can't find it in the "Guardian'.
>From the Sydney Morning Herald Sat Jan 15 2000.
N-weapons targeted at ‘hostile' West.
Russia
by Ian Traynor, in Moscow.
Russia has revised its defence doctrine to make it easier to press the
nuclear button in an international crisis, while unequivocally declaring the West hostile. A new national security strategy decreed by Acting President Vladimir Putin on Monday and due to be published yesterday marks a radical shift in Russia s view of the world. It ushers in a: policy of "expanded nuclear containment" while pledging to resist Western attempts to dominate the globe.
The strategic shift lowers the threshold at which Russia may resort to
nuclear weapons and is the first foreign policy move Mr Putin has
taken since replacing Mr Boris Yeltsin in the Kremlin on New Year s Eve.
5306. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 12:34:32 AM
Candide --
I haven't yet read your link about comparative "success", but I will. May a flabby liberal bleater modestly suggest that there other ways to measure a successfully run country? I'm sure you would agree with that already anyway.
I agree that there are other ways to measure (or, if not measure, then at least rank) successfully run countries. But this is one way, and it's one that some on this forum have mistakenly assumed Europe was performing as well as the United States.
CalGal --
Because they finally put McDonalds and Burger King in most of the major cities.
Occassionally -- just occassionally -- you can be very funny.
5307. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 12:36:33 AM
Candide --
No we're not.
You're not one of those nuts who will be celebrating the millennium next year, are you? ;-)
5308. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:37:10 AM
The story is much longer but I didn't want to muck up the Mote.
CalGal
If people travel across the Atlantic for a Big Mac, they're not thinking clearly.
5309. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:39:29 AM
PincherMartin
I enjoyed the magic journey, but now I must tell myself the truth which is :"We don't have a clue which year it is. We made it all up."
5310. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 12:42:14 AM
Candide --
If people travel across the Atlantic for a Big Mac, they're not thinking clearly.
It's the ambiance. If you haven't had a Big Mac in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower or the Parthenon, then you haven't had a Big Mac.
5311. CalGal - 1/15/2000 12:42:47 AM
Candide,
Well, really, what's the point of seeing some old Eye-talian blocks of marble if you can't get fries to go with that Whopper?
5312. Candide - 1/15/2000 12:48:09 AM
Fries? In Italy?
Woman have you no shame?
La cucina italiana offers you a myriad of sensual delights and you eat FRIES?
5313. CalGal - 1/15/2000 12:51:19 AM
Yeah. That tomato sauce they use, what's it called--marinara? it's just not the same as ketchup. But you expect to make these little sacrifices when you travel.
5314. joezan - 1/15/2000 12:51:57 AM
...or, when you can see a marvelously rendered, 24-ft. tall Il Cavallo right in the middle of Grand Rapids, MI.
5315. joezan - 1/15/2000 12:53:00 AM
...uh, 5314's to 5311.
5316. Candide - 1/15/2000 1:16:36 AM
Joezan
Ho capito.
5317. Candide - 1/15/2000 1:25:26 AM
The URL for the 'New York Times' story about the changed Russian nuclear policy.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/011500russia-weapons.html
5318. ScottLoar - 1/15/2000 8:26:36 AM
I've seen a news photo of Il Cavallo, that work reconstructed from the drawings of Da Vinci, but placed in Grand Rapids? Only in America. Perhaps placing it in a Las Vegas hotel lobby was thought too gauche.
Barnum's dictum holds true, No one ever lost a buck underestimating the taste of the American public.
5319. jexster - 1/15/2000 11:32:58 AM
The today's Washington Post first page features an article on the great gap between the EU and the US in technology, causes and consequences.
here
The dynamics, causes and consequences were predicted and analyzed in detail in Robert Reich's "Work of Nations" (1992)
5320. jexster - 1/15/2000 11:37:48 AM
5321. ScottLoar - 1/15/2000 11:49:36 AM
The article recounts what persons in business worldwide have long suspected, that Europe just hasn't gotten it together.
From the article, many politicians and businessmen acknowledge that Europe will only achieve a real breakthrough in new technologies when the state's role as ultimate provider and protector is changed so that a premium is placed on individual initiative. And if they don't do so and quickly Europe may be surpassed in technological innovation and creative applications by East and Southeast Asia damn soon, perhaps within the coming generation by masses of ambitious, increasingly well financed and technically savvy individuals of initiative. What militates against so would be certain Asian countries' governments' continuing occupation and regulation of investment capital and patronage of select firms for political purposes. Yet in countries like Taiwan, Singapore, yes even Korea and that pseudo-state Hong Kong and perhaps even Shanghai there are few holds barred on old fashioned, grasping money-making, increasingly so by a new generation of entrepreneurs.
5322. jexster - 1/15/2000 11:57:48 AM
" If you have the time to host a WWII thread I would be delighted."
I have the time but not the foggiest on how, where to start. There is so much material.
Churchill's "Gathering Storm"???
a new book I'm reading "Hitler's Vienna - A dictator's apprenticeship"???
A CNN special now running re: some respectable (?) Holocaust revisionist historian - there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz, Hitler never authorized any "Final Solution"??
5323. jexster - 1/15/2000 11:58:54 AM
The last was "to Pelle"
5324. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 1:05:27 PM
Jexter --
Ahem.
I beat your Message # 5319 with my Message # 5295
I read the Work of Nations sometime ago, so I don't remember Reich making any predictions about the US beating Europe in the technology race. I have the book lying around here. Could you direct me to the section where he makes that claim?
5325. PelleNilsson - 1/15/2000 2:35:42 PM
jexster
Re WWII
A question arises. Should it wait until Pseuder is back, which I think will be in six weeks or so? I think he is knowledgeable. In any case he has opinions.
5326. Candide - 1/15/2000 3:07:36 PM
The Washington Post article is extremely interesting and no doubt accurate.
There is one worrying aspect in the attitude of the writer, and that is the assumption that 'grow or die, is beyond dispute. It may be that this is the case but I would have liked an element of doubt to appear occasionally. There is no evidence of any respect for other aspects of living. No respect for established ways of interacting locally.
The pre-eminence in online activity in the US could partly be attributed to the unifying English language which facilitates communication. There is less incentive to use internet when one speaks a minority language.
During the Kosovo war it was dissidents using email who maintained communication with the outside world.
Which brings me to another story. Arkan was shot and killed in Belgrade.
The first story I heard when I awakened.
5327. jexster - 1/15/2000 4:18:22 PM
PM: I read the book 8 years ago and don't have it lying about.
You won't find a discussion of DSL v. broadband nor a mention of AOL/Time Warner.
His argument is contained in a discussion of the Japanese and German economies v. the US and the evils of subsidizing industry. In fact, as I recall, the theme pervades the entire work beginning with the discussion of "flat" industrial organizations. Of course the book was his confession of being wrong in his prior work extolling "industrial policies".
What a fuckin good memory eh???
5328. jexster - 1/15/2000 4:19:24 PM
The Tiger's shot, Rosie seems to be in hiding. Do I detect the not-so-fine hand of the SAS?
5329. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 5:07:25 PM
Jexter --
I remember Reich's general arguments quite well (even if I've forgotten some of the particulars):
They are: there is no such thing as an American economy because money, goods and services no longer have borders; industrial policy should be used to promote industries for the last remaining part of the economy that must still obeys borders, that is, workers.
So imagine my surprise when you say Reich predicted that the US would win the technology race with Europe and Japan. Also, imagine my further surprise when you said that Reich writes in this book that he was wrong about extolling industrial policy.
Are you sure you haven't read something more recent of Reich's, where he might have changed his mind about an industrial policy for America? Back in 1992, when The Work of Nations was published, industrial policy still had a much larger group of backers than it does today. Japan's bubble had already burst, but few knew that their economic troubles that began in this period would remain as intractable as they have and the United States economy had only just begun to pull out of the 1991 recession. Reich hardly had any basis at that time to guess that an industrial policy would be the wrong policy for America.
5330. Candide - 1/15/2000 5:33:56 PM
I have been corrected by one in my establishment. It has been pointed out to me that the comments were mainly from Europeans and that the article merely reported what was said.
Well the comments were selected at any rate.
5331. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 6:13:09 PM
Sorry, Candide, I wasn't ignoring you.
There is one worrying aspect in the attitude of the writer, and that is the assumption that 'grow or die, is beyond dispute. It may be that this is the case but I would have liked an element of doubt to appear occasionally. There is no evidence of any respect for other aspects of living. No respect for established ways of interacting locally.
The pre-eminence in online activity in the US could partly be attributed to the unifying English language which facilitates communication. There is less incentive to use internet when one speaks a minority language.
5332. Candide - 1/15/2000 6:30:45 PM
PincherMartin
The pre-eminence in online activity in the US could
partly be attributed to the unifying English language
which facilitates communication. There is less incentive
to use internet when one speaks a minority language.
Why do you think this? The Information technology infrastructure is
not particularly expensive so even small countries should be able to
set up their own niches on the web. Why is Japan, Germany or
France too small to set up these niches?
(I wish I could do your beautiful layout by the way.)
It's because when one speaks English there are more people with whom to converse.
I'm not denying the 'grow or die' principle. I am questioning it. Some people think that the physical earth would have to be a cornucopia to supply the wants of the grow or die brigade — that sustainability is the name of the game.
5333. stostosto - 1/15/2000 6:55:35 PM
PincherMurcan Message # 5296:
Sto has argued that Europe's economic performance in the decade of the 90s has been similar to America's (and that, therefore, I'm mistaken in arguing that there has been a change in the economic paradigm by pointing to the US economy's performance during that time).
I have never argued thus, and I am not going to, although it is tempting considering how much fun we could have in such a debate.
What I said was that the American New Economy mostly amounted to a shift in the so-called NAIRU (non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment), and that such a shift has also occurred in three European countries, namely the Netherlands, the UK and Denmark. You disputed the Danish case pointing to some OECD figures, I gave you some Danish figures that seemed at odds with the OECD data. And that's that.
I believe that I have consistently been very critical of Europe, also when compared to the USA, and I would not dispute that the American system seems structurally superior to the European one in general.
I know PE has stated time and again that the European unemployment problems are not really structural but rooted in the self-inflicted austerity measures applied in order to meet the Maastricht criteria for the monetary union. I have never agreed with that line. I think there are severe structural problems in the core countries of Europe, i.e. Germany, France, and Italy, as well as in countries like Belgium, Spain, and - needless to say - Greece.
5334. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 6:59:18 PM
Candide --
It's because when one speaks English there are more people with whom to converse.
I'm not denying the 'grow or die' principle. I am questioning it. Some people think that the physical earth would have to be a cornucopia to supply the wants of the grow or die brigade — that sustainability is the name of the game.
5335. stostosto - 1/15/2000 7:09:40 PM
I disagree with your assessment of the Indian demagogue, btw. He is pure 19th century unadulterated European style nationalism without a shred of sophistication. But perhaps that's a phase India needs to go through just like we have done in our part of the world. If a hardened nationalistic stance would mean a better sense of community and of the need to make sacrifice on behalf of a common good, it might do a lot of good for India. Just like he points to in his article on the Indian Annus Horibilis that he links to, and which I have also read. He really pours scourn on the Indian politicians in a big way for their way of grossly mishandling the Orissa hurricane disaster. If you haven't read that, I can recommend it.
His talk of guns as a prerequisite of wealth on the other hand is nonsense.
Interesting that he uses the concept of a "soft state". That term to my knowledge, was coined by the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal who emphasised qualities as predictability, meritocracy, accountability and non-corruption as the basis for good government. India would do well to focus on those in stead of on guns. A big arsenal does not equal a hard state.
5336. joezan - 1/15/2000 7:11:40 PM
ScottLoar:
I've seen a news photo of Il Cavallo, that work reconstructed from the drawings of Da Vinci, but placed in Grand Rapids? Only in America.
Perhaps placing it in a Las Vegas hotel lobby was thought too gauche.
Oh! To the contrary, my globetrotting friend. In fact, Grand Rapids is quite well-known not only for its public sculptures, such as this Alexander Calder masterpiece in front of the VandenBerg Bldg,
5337. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 7:12:01 PM
Sto --
I have never argued thus, and I am not going to, although it is tempting considering how much fun we could have in such a debate.
What I said was that the American New Economy mostly amounted to a shift in the so-called NAIRU (non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment), and that such a shift has also occurred in three European countries, namely the Netherlands, the UK and Denmark. You disputed the Danish case pointing to some OECD figures, I gave you some Danish figures that seemed at odds with the OECD data. And that's that.
I believe that I have consistently been very critical of Europe, also when compared to the USA, and I would not dispute that the American system seems structurally superior to the European one in general.
I know PE has stated time and again that the European unemployment problems are not really structural but rooted in the self-inflicted austerity measures applied in order to meet the Maastricht criteria for the monetary union. I have never agreed with that line. I think there are severe structural problems in the core countries of Europe, i.e. Germany, France, and Italy, as well as in countries like Belgium, Spain, and - needless to say -Greece.
5338. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 7:19:08 PM
Sto -- Message # 5335
I thought he wrote with a fine sense of style and made good sense on almost all the issues. He heaps scorn on the Indian politicians for caving in to the Chinese on the matter of the young Dalai Lama (I didn't know the Indian politicians did this, by the way. If so, then they deserve his scorn.) He also is correct that INdia suffered little for its test of a nuclear weapon, and indeed, made out pretty well by encouraging the world to focus on a part of the world (the subcontinent) which is often neglected by policy-makers.
I didn't read the attached article, but I shall.
5339. stostosto - 1/15/2000 7:19:20 PM
Pincher: Murcan = American
I don't think I mentioned Ireland in the same context as the others, since I haven't really taken any interest in that poor lilliput. They have had a huge unemployment (it's still large), cheap labour, tax incentives for foreign investment, and, thus, a respectable growth rate. But that's mostly a case of a poor country catching up. (Was it you who mentioned that the Irish had overtaken the UK? I checked it then, and they hadn't according to that source (World Bank or something like that). But they are closing in).
5340. stostosto - 1/15/2000 7:23:01 PM
Pincher
I am not able to attach the importance to foreign policy and security matters that you are capable of, and which seems to be the only thing that the Srinavasan fellow is really interested in. I believe India ought to focus much more on shaping up its economic structures.
5341. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 7:28:09 PM
They have had a huge unemployment (it's still large), cheap labour, tax incentives for foreign investment, and, thus, a respectable growth rate. But that's mostly a case of a poor country catching up. (Was it you who mentioned that the Irish had overtaken the UK? I checked it then, and they hadn't according to that source (World Bank or something like that). But they are closing in).
5342. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 7:31:21 PM
Sto --
I am not able to attach the importance to foreign policy and security matters that you are capable of, and which seems to be the only thing that the Srinavasan fellow is really interested in. I believe India ought to focus much more on shaping up its economic structures.
5343. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 7:40:01 PM
Sto -- I'm still looking in TT for that article, but in the meantime I will cite the GDP per capita (PPP) figures for 1997 provided by The World Competitiveness Yearbook 1999 (using US$ per capita at current prices and purchasing power parity):
United Kingdom -- $20,735
Ireland --$20,711
The CIA's figures show a greater disparity with Ireland over 16,000 and the United Kingdom over 20,000 for 1996.
That's just a separation of $24 more than two years ago
5344. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 7:41:09 PM
Sorry, the last sentence in my last post should be above the sentence that quotes the CIA's figures.
5345. stostosto - 1/15/2000 8:48:43 PM
Pinch
Regarding European productivity growth vs. American: It's true that Europe hasn't seen the jump in productivity growth that has occurred in America since 1995. But then European productivity growth never made the kind of near-disappearance that was observed in America from the early 70s. Europe's record in this respect is better than the American one over the last 20 years or so (as is the overall growth too). Which is not unnatural given its generally lower economic level. [A caveat: I believe these are stylised facts about the relative performances; I havent' got access to good sources on them right now, and I am unlikely to see fit to spend much time digging up substantial evidence].
The downside of European productivity growth is of course the employment situation. Growth in productivity means more production per employed worker. That may translate into higher profits, investment and further employment expansion, and/or it may translate into higher wages. In Europe it seems there has been a tendency for the incumbent employment to be able to protect itself from the competetion from the unemployed, thus enjoying a higher rate of wage increase than otherwise would have been possible on the expense of fewer opportunities for the unemployed to gain foothold. Much, if not all, of this "super-normal wage increase" has then been absorbed by taxes to pay for unemployment benefits.
5346. Candide - 1/15/2000 8:53:35 PM
PincherMartin
The only reason anyone cares about sustainable growth is because
they are rich enough to care.
True. But that does not mean that they are wrong.
5347. stostosto - 1/15/2000 9:00:40 PM
This system has ensured a relatively equitable income distribution, and a sense of security. Both are highly cherished in Europe. The problem is, the system has a cost. A high unemployment is unsustainable in the long run. Besides representing a huge drain on the budget, it also tends to erode the qualifications of long-term unemployed, further diminishing their ability to gain foothole on the labour market as well as exerting a restraining pressure on the incumbents' wage development.
The American answer to that problem has been to let the markets rip. The unemployed get fewer benefits, there are much lower minimum wages in the US, and, consequently there has been created a mass of low-wage, low-qualifications jobs in the service sector that we don't see in Europe. 'The working poor' as the catch phrase goes.
These conditions are often described very condescendingly by Europeans. But I believe there is much evidence that few people stay at the low minimum wage for long. I also think the European way condemns many people to a withering life of inactivity which is hardly much more glamorous than being a 'working poor'. Even if they are able to pay their way with benefits.
5348. stostosto - 1/15/2000 9:10:15 PM
I should add that the favoured cure in Europe is some combination of giving more room for market forces - in labour markets as well as in product and capital markets - and of activating, training and educating the labour force so that it is capable of a productivity that corresponds to the wage level which is considered acceptable. Governments take an active role in this effort, more successfully in some places than in others.
In Scandinavia and the Netherlands this model has worked fairly well for the past 5-10 years. The UK has favoured a more American-style approach, despite Tony Blair's elusive "Third Way" rhetoric.
5349. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 9:17:04 PM
Stostosto --
Regarding European productivity growth vs. American: It's true that Europe hasn't seen the jump in productivity growth that has occurred in America since 1995. But then European productivity growth never made the kind of near-disappearance that was observed in America from the early 70s. Europe's record in this respect is better than the American one over the last 20 years or so (as is the overall growth too). Which is not unnatural given its generally lower economic level. [A caveat: I believe these are stylised facts about the relative performances; I havent' got access to good sources on them right now, and I am unlikely to see fit to spend much time digging up substantial evidence].
5350. stostosto - 1/15/2000 9:21:46 PM
Pinch
Do you know that India currently spends only about 2.5% of its GDP on defense?
No, I didn't know that.
That is hardly the problem with India's economy.
I never said it was. I said good goverment and shaping up the economic structures ought to be the urgent priorities. Not entering arms races and talking tough.
Though I absolutely do agree that India should stand up to China in the lama issue, as well as other issues. I am more doubtful about Kashmir. Insofar as the people want to join Pakistan. There is going to have to be a negotiated settlement somewhere down the road, and both parties might as well realise that right away. Then both countries can get on with what really matters: Economic development.
5351. stostosto - 1/15/2000 9:28:04 PM
And now I am going to bed. It has gotten ridiculously late here, just like yesterday. But you are so much fun to be with, all.
Good night!
5352. Candide - 1/15/2000 9:30:37 PM
stostosto
The unemployed get fewer benefits, there are much lower
minimum wages in the US, and, consequently there has been created
a mass of low-wage, low-qualifications jobs in the service sector that we don't see in Europe. 'The working poor' as the catch phrase goes.
These conditions are often described very condescendingly by
Europeans. But I believe there is much evidence that few people stay
at the low minimum wage for long. I also think the European way
condemns many people to a withering life of inactivity which is hardly much more glamorous than being a 'working poor'. Even if they are able to pay their way with benefits.
You are here presumably discussing those young enough to rise to the challenge?
Are the rest to be made into Soylent Green (movie) or exposed on a mountain side?
5353. stostosto - 1/15/2000 9:35:19 PM
Candide:
Plenty of people are capable of more challenges than to while their time away in hopeless unemployment. Some are not, and I want those taken care of. I think British/American, and, possibly Aussie/New Zealand style poverty negligence is wrong.
Now: Good night.
5354. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 9:40:18 PM
Sto --
This system has ensured a relatively equitable income distribution, and a sense of security. Both are highly cherished in Europe. The problem is, the system has a cost. A high unemployment is unsustainable in the long run. Besides representing a huge drain on the budget, it also tends to erode the qualifications of long-term unemployed, further diminishing their ability to gain foothole on the labour market as well as exerting a restraining pressure on the incumbents' wage development.
The American answer to that problem has been to let the markets rip. The unemployed get fewer benefits, there are much lower minimum wages in the US, and, consequently there has been created a mass of low-wage, low-qualifications jobs in the service sector that we don't see in Europe. 'The working poor' as the catch phrase goes.
5355. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 9:42:45 PM
These conditions are often described very condescendingly by Europeans. But I believe there is much evidence that few people stay at the low minimum wage for long. I also think the European way condemns many people to a withering life of inactivity which is hardly much more glamorous than being a 'working poor'. Even if they are able to pay their way with benefits.
5356. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 9:44:11 PM
Sto --
Then both countries can get on with what really matters: Economic development.
5357. Candide - 1/15/2000 9:59:47 PM
My server (Telstra) was out except for blinks, for all of New South Wales yesterday and is appearing for three minutes then vanishing again today. If my responses are more than usually incoherent this is a frustrating contributor. We checked their website and the last update was in September 1999.
IT jobs going begging perhaps but not being created in order to reduce the costs and increase the profits? Or perhaps just stupidity?
5358. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 10:20:26 PM
Candide --
IT jobs going begging perhaps but not being created in order to reduce the costs and increase the profits? Or perhaps just stupidity?
I honestly don't understand this. What do you mean?
5359. Candide - 1/15/2000 10:29:46 PM
Why would a major server not have checked the performance of its equipment (service status)for five months?
Shortage of labour, meanness or stupidity or a combination of all three.
5360. Candide - 1/15/2000 10:30:57 PM
?
5361. PincherMartin - 1/15/2000 10:33:48 PM
I've got you. I thought those two sentences were independent of the rest of your post.
5362. Candide - 1/15/2000 10:37:05 PM
A cry of frustration. I have to shout :"Is it (modem) blinking?" up a long corridor or walk up it to ask more elegantly, every few minutes. It's been going on for several days. You mentioned emploment being created in the IT sector.
In my case activity certainly.
5363. ScottLoar - 1/15/2000 11:43:11 PM
JoeZan,
I expected you to sally forth sabre raised to defend the honour of Grand Rapids but tell me, does the placement observe
Place
Proportion
Perspective
or is it thrown in with the other lot of municipal sculpture?
And if you must know I have a good clear view of the sky from my backporch on the second story, well enough to see an occasional shooting star in the late summer evenings as I sit outside with my wife under a single candlelight, quietly talking about the things that people long married talk about. That is the backyard you invite me to notice.
5364. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/15/2000 11:45:59 PM
Pincher:
The link you posted in Message # 5293 was very interesting. There have been many rumors floating around here for a few weeks about the possibility of a military coup. The reasoning is:
• The military will do anything to avoid being brought before a war crimes trial. The war crimes investigations (about abuses in Aceh and East Timor) have been gathering speed, and will certainly lead to convictions. The military refuses to be accountable.
• The military considers the Gus Dur government weak, as they're used to the old hard-line way of doing things under Suharto.
• The military has intentionally escalated the conflict in Maluku to make themselves appear indispensable (and to show only they can handle things).
The arguments against a coup:
• The military is experiencing huge internal divisions, and it is unlikely they could unite for anything, least of all a coup. Besides the fighting between the Army and the Navy, there are three well-defined camps in TNI: 1) The Wiranto camp, which seeks to return to hard-line ways while ostensibly supporting democracy, 2) The Agus Wirahadikusuma camp, which supports Gus Dur fully, and wants to see more democracy, regional autonomy, openness and less military involvement in the government, and 3) The Prabowo camp, supporters of the disgraced Suharto son-in-law, who want a return to the old status quo. Since the Wiranto camp and the Prabowo camp despise each other, I don't think they could cooperate on anything. And the Agus camp, which is quite large, would make any coup attempt very difficult.
[continued]
5365. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/15/2000 11:46:54 PM
• Due to the free press, the military's tricks in Maluku aren't convincing anyone. Holbrooke's statements accurately reflect the desires of most Indonesians... there is a real desire to see the military go on trial for abuses.
• From my own discussions with TNI and police high-ranking personnel, a coup is not in the cards. Of course, my contacts may be out of the loop.
Holbrooke's comments were very welcome, and got good play here (although the military wasn't too thrilled). It's good for the USA to let the military know they are watching (not that the USA could or would do anything about a coup, were one to occur).
5366. ScottLoar - 1/15/2000 11:50:55 PM
PelleNilsson;
I apply to you, thread host, to provide us with a list of prescribed topics that best await the return of Pseudoerasmus for proper discussion and the benefit of his opinion. Or if that list is too long perhaps you can favour us with a short list of topics open for immediate discussion, those subjects less serious or which need not wait for elucidation by Pseudoerasmus.
Or, perhaps you could ignore the flow of discussion here until visited by Pseudoerasmus who "has many opinions"?
5367. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/15/2000 11:56:37 PM
Pincher:
wrt to your comments on the language of the internet in Message # 5331 and Message # 5332:
Although there is growth in internet sites in languages other than English, users of these sites are restricted to communicating with speakers of their own languages. Obviously, there is significant value in this, and other-language sites will continue to grow.
However, to take full advantage of the potential of the internet, one must use the de facto world language. English is the medium which has allowed people of all nations to communicate freely on the internet, and is the tool whereby borders are removed for business on the internet. In my own internet-based business, I have received enquires from 74 nations in the past year... all of these enquiries were in English (although many of the persons writing were not native speakers of English).
There is nothing about English itself which makes it any more special than any other language, but by a coincidence of fate, we are in a situation now where English is by far the pre-eminent language for communication between speakers of many languages, and having a common language for business or other purposes is a very valuable thing for all peoples and all nations.
5368. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 12:00:43 AM
So you received enquiries from 74 nations to your internet business and all were in English. Was any other language solicited, welcomed, or evidenced at your site? If not, everyone assumes the lingua franca of business to be English.
5369. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 12:29:14 AM
ScottLoar:
Exactly. In the absence of any specific instructions to the contrary, people from all nations will use English.
5370. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 12:30:28 AM
I'd like to make a few observations related to Alistair's earlier posts on the Islamic headscarf issue (although these observations are not completely relevant to the discussion of the situation in France).
Here in Indonesia, the headscarf issue became a hot topic about 15 years ago when a school headmaster at a state school in Jakarta suspended a student for insisting on wearing a headscarf at school. His argument was that if a student wanted to wear a headscarf, she could attend an Islamic school, and that headscarves were not welcome in state schools.
The headmaster was overruled, and the Department of Education decided that forbidding students to wear headscarves was trampling upon their freedom of religion. Headscarves are now allowed in state schools, but are almost never seen. I'd guess that no more than 1 or 2% of girls in state schools wear headscarves, and maybe half the girls in Islamic schools.
Headscarves are not very common in Indonesia, and, unlike Malaysia, the percentage of women using them has not increased in the past 20 years. Most women wearing headscarves are older (over 60) or from the lowest classes of society. Certain ethnic groups almost never wear headscarves (foremost among these the Javanese).
I've been on the lookout for headscarves since I saw the posts in this thread, and I have made the following (completely unscientific) observations:
• Visiting an elite shopping mall, there wasn't a headscarf in sight. At a train station, perhaps 5% of the women were wearing headscarves. At a family reunion of my wife's family, the only women (of about 100) wearing headscarves were over 60 years old.
[continued]
5371. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 12:31:25 AM
This leads me to believe that, in Indonesia anyway, there aren't many fathers telling their daughters to wear headscarves, and any that there are are from the lowest rungs of society.
A side note... the supposed reasoning behind the need for women to cover up in Islam is to control men's passions. In Indonesia, an Islamic nation where women rarely cover up, men seem to be able to control their passions pretty well (rape is almost unknown, except as a political tool). Maybe it's just Arab men that need their passions controlled.
5372. Candide - 1/16/2000 12:34:58 AM
Stostosto
In the L'Espressocolumn on the left there were sections available on quite a few serious subjects. In "opinioni" there were editorials, serious and comical including an essay by Umberto Eco which combined both qualities.
Joezan
Many apologies for a glib interpretation of the placement of the Cavallo. I do feel a natural hesitation about the whole exercise starting with the Italian contribution although they are usually pretty austere and honest when they approach such things. Alexander Calder has long been a sculptor whom I greatly admire. I didn't know that there was a sculpture park like the one you describe. I have cycled through the Kroller-Muller sculpture park. Henry Moore intended much of his work to be set in a natural landscape, but not anywhere dramatic. Just topography that suited it.
5373. hashke - 1/16/2000 12:50:37 AM
5366. ScottLoar - 1/16/00 4:50:55 AM
PelleNilsson;
I apply to you, thread host, to provide us with a list of prescribed topics that best await the return of Pseudoerasmus for proper discussion and the benefit of his opinion. Or if that list is too long perhaps you can favour us with a short list of topics open for immediate discussion, those subjects less serious or which need not wait for elucidation by Pseudoerasmus.
Or, perhaps you could ignore the flow of discussion here until visited by Pseudoerasmus who "has many opinions"?
Hahaha! Masterfully sardonic, Loar.
5374. Candide - 1/16/2000 1:14:02 AM
hashke
I couldn't possibly comment..............
5375. hashke - 1/16/2000 1:28:05 AM
5374. Candide - 1/16/00 6:14:02 AM
hashke
I couldn't possibly comment..............
Hehehe! Sottilmente mordace.
5376. Candide - 1/16/2000 1:36:43 AM
hashke
Grazie gentile professore.
5377. Candide - 1/16/2000 2:11:31 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
I dare say that keeping a low profile is the name of the game in your home-land at the moment, but when I read your pieces about Indonesia I find myself wishing that they were read more widely.
I suppose that writing for an Australian newspaper would be a bad career move at the moment.
5378. Jerry Roos - 1/16/2000 4:47:39 AM
Pincher, etal, for what may be a completely non-business reason, English has been the language of business worldwide. It has been so for as long as I have been involved in international business. The internet has followed suit. After all, the internet was invented by an American(Al Gore). If a person speaks a language in addition to the mother tongue, it will most likely be English.
5379. PelleNilsson - 1/16/2000 5:19:17 AM
Welcome to this thread Jerry!
5380. PelleNilsson - 1/16/2000 5:28:47 AM
ScottLoar -- Message # 5366
You are letting your dislike of PE overcome your judgement. Jexster and I were discussing a new specialised thread on the subject of which PE has demonstrated some not insignificant knowledge. If a new thread on Oriental Arts were contemplated and ScottLoar was temporarily unavailable, it could make sense to wait for his return.
That's all there is to it.
5381. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 6:59:51 AM
Jerry Roos:
Allow me to add my welcome as well. And thanks for your perceptive comments, which nicely complement my own earlier ones.
5382. MsIvoryTower - 1/16/2000 7:45:46 AM
Hashke re 5373
I was waiting for someone to find the right comment on Scott's wicked post. Hahaha, excellent.
I was beginning to wonder if a shrine was now erected to the great Erasmus imposter.......
5383. MsIvoryTower - 1/16/2000 7:50:37 AM
Irving
I would also think that religious, social and political leaders must not feel the headscarf a necessary accessory as well for it to be so unused in Indonesia. While fathers are surely important, I'd think that such a custom would have to be reinforced at many levels to be as widespread as it is in some other Islamic countries.
5384. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 9:51:21 AM
Msit:
I agree. I mentioned fathers because that was the point Alistair was making wrt Frabce (though I don't feel France can really be compared to Indonesia in this case, as the situation is very different).
5385. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 9:55:28 AM
Candide:
Thanks for the kind words. I don't aspire to a career in journalism. Besides, Australia has many fine journalists reporting on Indonesia. the reporting on Indonesia from Oz (especially in the SMH, The Age, and the Australian Financial Review) is usually accurate and sometimes truly outstanding.
5386. PelleNilsson - 1/16/2000 12:55:34 PM
An American travel magazine has come up with a top ten of human-made objects to visit:
5387. CalGal - 1/16/2000 1:03:49 PM
Mount Rushmore?
5388. Indiana Jones - 1/16/2000 1:17:28 PM
My travel experience may be more limited than that of some others here, but the most impressive manmade construct I've seen is St. Peter's Basillica. I've seen the Alhambra and would certainly rate it above that.
Pompeji seems like a bit of cheating. Its impressiveness has more to do with Mother Nature than man!
5389. joezan - 1/16/2000 1:33:13 PM
ScottLoar:
JoeZan,
I expected you to sally forth sabre raised to defend the honour of
Grand Rapids but tell me, does the placement observe
Place
Proportion
Perspective
or is it thrown in with the other lot of municipal sculpture?
No no no...maybe I wasn't clear. Il Cavallo is not a municipal piece. He resides at the Frederik Meijer Gardens.
And, yes. All those things were of course taken care of long before he was cast. He has about 3/4 of an acre of beautifully landscaped gardens all to himself.
He does, however, lack some of the character and charm he might have acquired in a more...metropolitan environment. In fact, I believe there were discussions regarding the procurement of regular shipments of pigeon shit from Chicago, to be liquefied and sprayed on monthly, as well as the importation of 6 - 12 bums from New York. They even had some Meijer's grocery carts specially made for them, from which they would sell miniature chocolate Il Cavallos.
These plans are currently on hold, until a feasibility study is completed for installing steam grates in the ornamental brick walkways so the bums'll feel at home.
5390. Candide - 1/16/2000 3:15:39 PM
I am modestly intrigued by the fact that I have given the URL for a very underplayed 'New York Times' story about the Russian change in nuclear policy. While there is serious and enthusiasic talk of starting an (excellent I have no doubt) thread on WW2, not one single individual has demonstrated even a flicker of interest in this real and present event.
What can this mean?
5391. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:21:02 PM
Interesting - for but a moment - to see how your mind works.
No, I didn't know the piece was in sculputure gardens and yes, if the piece is positioned with regard to place, proportion and perspective then the tons of Il Cavallo can stand on merit rather than as sideshow.
London Bridge had an entire desert to itself but still stood as a carney. You needn't not be an American to see or admit so.
5392. CalGal - 1/16/2000 3:21:59 PM
It can mean many things.
But whenever anyone comments that their topic of choice was ignored, it can only mean one thing.
5393. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:26:22 PM
I had understood Il Cavallo was to memorialize a Medici (am I wrong?) and so intended for a municipal setting. So, JoeZan's character and charm would have been appropriate but, again, maybe not downtown Grand Rapids.
This may not be construed as comment on the local Elks chapter.
5394. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:39:26 PM
Of the American magazine's top ten man-made objects to visit (all architecture) I've seen only the Taj but - no cathedrals? The Cathedral of Notre Dame at Chartres is a masterwork of engineering, sculpture and devotion harmonized in stone and glass. So, too, The Great Wall seems to have little to recommend it but mass, an invitation for comparison with Boulder Dam. I have seen Monticello and that's a hell of a charming, beautiful house, arguably outclassing Machu Piccu.
Still, all architecture. No music, sculpture, articles of daily use (Windsor chair, 30's appliances), scientific instruments and such, etc? Even the elegant simplicity of scientific or mathematic principle well stated? No? The list seems an impoverished choice to me.
5395. Candide - 1/16/2000 3:40:06 PM
CalGal
I'm a bit thunderstruck that something with such vast implications should be described as a 'topic'.
5396. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:42:13 PM
Some think Coco Chanel's designs among the most beautiful that ever graced the female form, surely outclassing the terra cotta army of Qinshihhuangdi.
5397. Candide - 1/16/2000 3:44:26 PM
Mr Loar
Allow me to say that I like your approach to 'man-made objects'.
What's a carney?
5398. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:47:16 PM
It seems the list is a bit heavy on the gargantuan. That pretty much pokes out my choice of 20's French ceiling fans, ornamental ironwork, bridges, or watch movements and camp furniture.
5399. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:49:39 PM
I especially think the hoplite helment one of the most beautiful objects ever conceived and wrought by man but, hey! That's just me.
5400. Candide - 1/16/2000 3:49:44 PM
Carney?
5401. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 3:54:07 PM
Look under carny, someone who works in a carnival. Not to be confused with a barker.
5402. Candide - 1/16/2000 3:56:15 PM
MrLoar
I had deduced as much. It is a very American expression. I like it.
5403. Candide - 1/16/2000 3:58:25 PM
The 'e' misled me. I'm glad that I carnied that out of you. (Second British meaning I discovered.)
5404. PelleNilsson - 1/16/2000 4:00:52 PM
Candide
I'm a bit thunderstruck that something with such vast implications
should be described as a 'topic'.
As far as I understand Putin has released a wide-ranging document addressing the problems in Russian society and its relations within the world.
Within that paper it says that nuclear weapons shall only be resorted to when all other military means have been exhausted. The earlier version is said to be (I haven't seen any identification of source) "if the survival of the Soviet Union is threatened" or words to the effect.
Please provide your analysis of this change in language, preferrably supported by other opinion than that of sensationalist journalism.
5405. PelleNilsson - 1/16/2000 4:30:45 PM
ScottLoar
I completely agree abot the Chartres cathedral.
Will somebody enlighten me about Maccu Picchu and Mesa Verde?
5406. Candide - 1/16/2000 4:55:30 PM
PelleNilsson
The 'sensational journalism' that aroused my interest was written by Ian Traynor for The Guardian.
He claimed that there had been a strategic shift which lowered the threshold at which Russia might resort to nuclear weapons. He also said that it was the first foreign policy move from Mr Putin after he had replaced Mr Yeltsin.
In 1997 Yeltsin decreed that nuclear weapons could be used only "in the case of a threat to the very existence of the Russian Federation as a sovereign state".
continued
5407. Candide - 1/16/2000 4:56:23 PM
The new document states that the use of nuclear weapons is necessary to "repel armed aggression if all othermeans of resolving a crisis situation have been exhausted or turn out to be ineffective".
Traynor suggests that the new stategy substantially eases the constraints on resort to the nuclear option. He points out that Russia still commands a large nuclear arsenal but its conventional ground forces lack readiness.
Mr Sergei Sorkut, a military affairs expert is quoted as saying:"These are very substantial changes. The emphasis on nuclear weapons has changed. They can now be used in crisis situations."
continued
5408. Candide - 1/16/2000 4:56:45 PM
NATO's expansion into former Warsaw Pact countries and the US-led war against Yugoslavia last year, the story continues, has sparked the Russian policy overhaul.
The 1997 strategy spoke of "partnership" with the West and decreed there was no threat of military aggression to Russia. The new paper says that two "mutually exclusive tendencies" are now locked in combat.
It says that the "multipolar world" promoted by Yeltsin, who sought to enlist India and China as allies, is in conflict with "the West led by the US", which aims to use its military might to dominate world affairs.
This has left in limbo NATO's Partnership for Peace Pact agreed to appease Russia during negotiations to admit Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic to the alliance.
Moscow froze its participation last year in protest against the NATO war in Kosovo although over 3,000Russian troops participated.
Russian commentary on the leaked 21-page document said it made it clear that "the term 'partnership' has been consigned to the past.
Moscow analysts are quoted as saying that the radical departure in nuclear doctrine represented as "entirely logical development" enshrining a new policy of "expanded nuclear containment".
"Russia will not only use nuclear weapons in response to a nuclear attack, but in reponse to a conventional attack when there is no other way out."
A new military doctrine dovetailing with the Putin national security strategy is expected to be endorsed by the Acting President in February, said Mr Sergei Ivanov, a close Putin ally and secretary of the Kremlin's influential Security Council.
A more conciliatory note came from Mr Igor Sergeyev the Defence Minister who said he was confident that the new parliament would ratify the Start-2 arms control treaty with the US.
5409. Indiana Jones - 1/16/2000 5:28:19 PM
Candide: Such a language shift is only a diplomatic signal. The reality hasn't changed as far as when Russia would use its forces. The issue of Foreign Affairs on newstands has an already dated analysis (it expected Yeltsin to finish his term and didn't predict the rise of Putin) of what post-Yeltsin Russia would be like. It says that such rhetoric might come along but that we ought not mistake it for the progress Russia is really making.
I don't agree so far with this optimistic view because my instincts tell me that Putin may be non-democratic, anti-Western. It's too early to tell, but he "raises the hairs on the back of my neck," and the first few signs haven't been promising.
5410. Dusty - 1/16/2000 5:34:58 PM
PelleNilsson -
I haven't been to Machu Picchu, but my father and a good friend have visited. My friend shared photos with me; I was breen with envy. Perhpas someday. 
MACHU PICCHU
5411. Dusty - 1/16/2000 5:38:52 PM
5412. Jerry Roos - 1/16/2000 6:03:59 PM
I agree with Calgal, Mt. Rushmore???? Pelle mentioned the Great Wall, which has more to offer than Scott claims as "mass." Difficulty of terrain, mass labor, concept(defensive structure, which didn't work), etc. Up close, it is elegant in design and execution. Chinese believe that the Wall contains the bodies of many workers who died on the project. The Terra Cotta warriors are awesome, and they've only uncovered 20% of them. But, I'm a Sinophile. I'm a little surprised that Indiana didn't bring up the "Temple of Doom."
5413. Candide - 1/16/2000 6:11:12 PM
Indiana Jones
the new stategy substantially eases the
constraints on resort to the nuclear option. He points out that
Russia still commands a large nuclear arsenal but its conventional
ground forces lack readiness.
For me this is the nub of the case.
I will reply more fully later. I put off some important business to bash out the above story and that business has caught up with me. Thanks for replying.
5414. Candide - 1/16/2000 6:13:34 PM
Indiana Jones
P.S.
I think the West vastly under-rates the hurt pride in that part of the world.
5415. Dusty - 1/16/2000 6:17:07 PM
breen. A combination of blue, because I wasn't there, and green. Or maybe just a typo, like "perpas".
5416. Dusty - 1/16/2000 6:18:03 PM
What am I missing? Why aren't the pyramids on the list?
5417. Candide - 1/16/2000 6:27:13 PM
IndianaJones
The reality hasn't changed as far as when Russia would use its forces
[Mr Sergei Sorkut, a military affairs expert is quoted as saying:"These
are very substantial changes. The emphasis on nuclear weapons has
changed. They can now be used in crisis situations." ]
5418. Candide - 1/16/2000 6:28:26 PM
IndianaJones
I think the hairs on the back of your neck may be right.
5419. Indiana Jones - 1/16/2000 6:42:53 PM
Candide: I believe the Russians will use their nuclear forces whenever their leader at the time perceives it in their best national interests to do so, no matter what they epouse. Our "job" is to make sure that situation doesn't occur. I agree with you about the hurt national feelings, similar to Weimar Germany.
I'm also wary of Putin because his rhetoric doesn't evidence a lot of insight. Given what we know of his personal past, I'd like to hear more pro-democracy rhetoric. That is more important to me than a pro-Western/U.S. stance.
The French aren't usually supportive of America, but I don't fear a war with them.
5420. CalGal - 1/16/2000 6:52:31 PM
Dusty,
They've been eclipsed by the wonders of Rushmore.
5421. Candide - 1/16/2000 7:17:28 PM
Indiana Jones
Agreed. I think the West has been extremely frivolous in its discounting of that Weimar factor. That was why many people in my part of the world became extremely impatient with the internal Monica squabbling. It was widely felt that vital opportunities were being squandered.
Fiddling whilst Rome burned.
5422. CalGal - 1/16/2000 7:23:02 PM
That was why many people in my part of the world became extremely impatient with the internal Monica squabbling. It was widely felt that vital opportunities were being squandered.
Good lord. It's nonsense like this that makes me sympathize with Ace's rant in Politics.
5423. Candide - 1/16/2000 7:33:13 PM
IndianaJones
I agree that the visible change is in the diplomatic language, but that means something. The change is a serious one I believe. There was a window of opportunity there for a while.
This has left in limbo NATO's Partnership for Peace Pact agreed to
appease Russia during negotiations to admit Poland, Hungary and
the Czech Republic to the [NATO]alliance.
I believe the seriousness of the Russians' reaction to this was underestimated.
Moscow froze its participation last year in protest against the NATO war in Kosovo although over 3,000Russian troops participated.
Russian commentary on the leaked 21-page document said it made it
clear that "the term 'partnership' has been consigned to the past.
I think the West is confident that because Russia needs financial help they can more or less get away with anything. This is the country that burned its own houses to defeat Napoleon. The West could be making a big mistake.
5424. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 7:36:11 PM
I've no doubt that when the mounted Crazy Horse (artist's rendition, as there is no realistic evidence to distinguish the true face of Crazy Horse from anyone's imagining of a Sioux Indian) is finally carved out of that mountain he'll jump up among the popular American pantheon of man-made wonders.
The Great Wall of China remains a long wall, mostly derelict, almost always useless, almost always sure to inspire wonder such as prompts the urban legend that it's the only man-made structure visible from space.
5425. joezan - 1/16/2000 7:37:54 PM
Scott:
What other man-made structure is visible from space?
5426. joezan - 1/16/2000 7:38:24 PM
...I mean, besides Cindy Doe's boobs.
5427. Candide - 1/16/2000 7:41:32 PM
CalGal
There are times when it's important to keep one's eye on the ball.
There were too many distractions at an extremely important time in international relations.
Modern political life is played on many fronts including the media which has the task of letting politicians know that they are being observed. Energy and attention were deflected. This is not just my own opinion but a widely held view.
5428. ScottLoar - 1/16/2000 7:46:50 PM
Two correct answers, JoeZan. From the lens of a spy satellite circling the earth Cindy Doe skinnydipping is finely exposed to your heart's delight. By the unassisted eye of an astronaut (or cosmonaut, I believe their eyesight commonly equal) no man-made structure is evident. Lights, yes, but not structures. This assumes that cloud cover allows a good peek.
5429. Candide - 1/16/2000 7:53:18 PM
CalGal
I searched in politics for something resembling a rant from Ace. You mean that "Don't criticise America" stuff?
5430. CalGal - 1/16/2000 7:59:50 PM
Candide,
Yes, but doesn't it ever bother all you little people that the most you can ever manage is commentary on our bad judgment? Go do it yourself (whatever "it" is).
If you can't do it yourself, then what real right do you have to judge? How do you know what is involved in becoming a superpower? How do you know that the nature of the populace, our concerns and our interests, our narcissism, aren't directly related to the success that makes us so powerful?
Do we make mistakes? Absolutely. But the only reason anyone gives a damn about our mistakes is because we're so rich and powerful. No one bothers to peruse some pissant little country down by the South Pole for their mistakes, copious though they undoubtedly are.
You'd think that'd stop people from the pissant little country from judgment. But no.
5431. CalGal - 1/16/2000 8:08:13 PM
Never mind the sublime certainty you have that, had we paid attention, we would have resolved the situation satisfactorily.
But of course, had we paid attention and not resolved the situation to your all-knowing requirements, you would have then bitched about that.
5432. Candide - 1/16/2000 8:17:00 PM
CalGal
Yes, but doesn't it ever bother all you little people that the most you can ever manage is commentary on our bad judgment? Go do it yourself (whatever "it" is).
Nice! Mature!
5433. Candide - 1/16/2000 8:33:21 PM
CalGal
But the only reason anyone gives
a damn about our mistakes is because we're so rich and powerful.
I can understand why you would feel that way. Have you ever tried adding the words "and therefore potentially harmful to others" onto that sentence?
Everybody has a right to criticise anything just as you do.
I happen to be a great admirer of much that is American and don't automatically blame America for anything.
A nuclear arms race had just ended and there were all sorts of encouraging gestures from both sides and if things had continued the way they began a lot of hopeful and constructive results would have eventuated.
There are still a lot of good people on both sides really trying their damndest to keep things rolling, but petty politics (not just the US) got in the way. The Monica thing really acted as a media distraction. I have read that you admire Clinton but are mad with him for allowing himself such indulgence. I share that view. I had placed great hopes in the Clinton government.
It wasn't just in Australia that people felt like that. There were plenty of Americans who felt that way too and Europeans and probably Asians as well not to mention Africans and Polynesians. (Have I left anyone out?)
Precisely because America is big and rich and powerful it has more ability than any other country to carry out the changes and I wish it luck with all my heart.
5434. Candide - 1/16/2000 8:36:04 PM
AND subcontinentals marjoribanks.
5435. CalGal - 1/16/2000 8:50:33 PM
Lordy. Not a drop spilled upon her.
5436. Candide - 1/16/2000 9:01:37 PM
CalGal
It is you who are impermeable.
5437. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/16/2000 9:54:41 PM
Any discussion of the most impressive man-made objects in the world should certainly include the Borobudur temple. Borobudur, built 1200 years ago, is the largest Buddhist monument in the world. It rises majestically out of the hills of Central Java. 
BOROBUDUR
5438. CalGal - 1/16/2000 9:59:10 PM
Not bad. But it's no Mt. Rushmore.
5439. alistairConnor - 1/16/2000 10:08:31 PM
Dedicated to CalGal
No-one likes us
I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
They don't respect us, so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one, and pulverise them
Boom goes London, and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city, the whole world round
Will just be another American town
They all hate us anyhow,
So let's drop the big one now!
Childish, I know, but I never tire of quoting Randy Newman.
5440. alistairConnor - 1/16/2000 10:13:58 PM
Message # 5354 The average African-American has a higher per capita income than the average Western European.
Pinscher, what about inner city African-American child mortality rates, reputed to be at Third World levels? Outdated statistic? Urban legend?
5441. RustlerPike - 1/17/2000 12:30:18 AM
Here's a thought I woke up with:
Barak seems to be holding Assad by the short and curlies with this matter of a unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon. Apparently, the prospect of such a withdrawal scares the bejeebers out of Assy, whose hegemony over Lebanon depends on the current delicate balance of power (so say the experts). He knows if Barak withdraws, Syria will wind up with no Lebanon and and no Golan. So this is what drove him to the negotiating table.
Now, Barak is pushing on full steam ahead with the preparations for withdrawal, and the Israeli papers are full of pictures showing measurements being carried out for the new security arrangements along the border with Lebanon, with the redeployment to be effected within 3-4 months.
So apparently, Barak thinks Assad will 'break', eventually, and agree to make peace: meet with him, shake his hand, smile, and say something nice. And I think he may well be right, for the simple reason that he has proven to a correct judge of such matters, and seems to have history on his side (for now at least). Once Assad gives us that cute little smile, the majority of Israelis may well be behind an agreement.
5442. RustlerPike - 1/17/2000 12:34:39 AM
Hey - did I see my beloved MsIvoryTower, that pillar of feminine warmth, in this thread - or was I dreaming? Is that you, beloved Ms? Where have you been and what boat brings you to these international waters?
5443. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:02:42 AM
Rustler
You are such a gentleman. I second your view on MsIT.
I also liked your declaration on your wife very much. You are a lucky man. She is a lucky woman.
5444. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:05:13 AM
Loar:
#5366
Wonderful!
Pelle had that coming, I knew it as soon as I read his post.
CalGal:
"The pyramids are eclipsed by the wonders of Mt. Rushmore".
Hahahahahahaha - HA!
I love this thread.
5445. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:06:20 AM
And the Vietnam Monument?!!
Whereever did you say you got that list, pelle?
5446. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:07:47 AM
alistairconnor:
We'll save Australia
- don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
we'll build an all-American amusement park there.
They've got surfing, too!
5447. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:11:39 AM
Asia's crowded,
Europe's too old;
Africa is far too hot
and Canada's too cold
South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one,
there'll be no one left to blame us.
(Sorry, it's one of my favourites, what can I say...)
5448. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:30:05 AM
Candide #5372:
I can't think of why I missed that article by Eco. It must be my inexperience in navigating Italian web sites...
But thank you for pointing to it.
Actually, I am a big fan of Eco. I'll see if my fragile Italian skills can hold up. I am not too optimistic.
5449. alistairconnor - 1/17/2000 4:35:00 AM
Far more important than the fate of that crusty old torturer Pinochet, is the fact that Chile has a new president.
The socialist Ricardo Lagos beat the ultra-liberal economist Joaquin Lavin.
Now that Pinochet can go home in peace... looks like there'll be no peace at home for him.
5450. stostosto - 1/17/2000 5:00:16 AM
I like it too. I don't know much about Lagos, but it's great symbolism to have a Pinochet dissident as president of that country. Like Mandela, and Havel are symbols for change and democracy in their respective countries. I hope he will understand the need for and be able to de-polarise Chilean society. Interestingly, the few reports on the Chilean campaigns I have read have indicated that both candidates were wary of the Pinochet issue. It was apparently uncertain how his pending return would influence voters. Not because there was any popular backing for him, but because many people liked the right-wing candidate's leaning towards laying the issue to rest and avoid a painful reliving of those years.
5451. Jerry Roos - 1/17/2000 7:11:51 AM
Pyramids don't count, wern't built by earthlings. At least that's the alternative view. I'm starting to warm up to Mt. Rushmore. My son's in-laws are English, and when they visited us in the US, they asked if we could pop over to see Rushmore. Two days there and two days back..sorry Fred, Rushmore's not within popping over distance. The size of the US as well as other more important things can be misunderstood by people from the old country.
Bigger nuclear threat is from so called rogue countries. I think they would have less compunction to use than Russia since Russia has been part of and still is in the mainstream. But, Communists seem to have little regard for what the rest of the world thinks. The reminder of lost Russian pride is surely a factor to consider. Does anyone have an idea what the US agenda is for world affairs? We seem rudderless and losing all our chips.
5452. KuligintheHooligan - 1/17/2000 9:10:22 AM
Some interesting tidbits on the recent Namibian elections.
It seems that the "conventional wisdom" had it that SWAPO wouldn't get the two-thirds majority it had obtained last time and needed in order to make any constitutional changes, should they need to do so. Well, they got 76% of the vote and it left some people wondering if there wasn't a bit of foul play involved.
The elections were held over two days. Once a person voted, they had black ink placed on their thumb nail, ink that supposedly couldn't be washed off for several days. But I have heard from several people that the ink came off quite easily.
The other thing I heard was that people who had old registration cards had needed to get new ones for this election. But they didn't have to hand in their old cards. The worry was that they wouldn't get their new ones until after the election. So in essence, many people had two registration cards at election time. They could have used one to vote, washed off the ink, and voted elsewhere again!
Not sure if this actually happened or not. Just food for thought.
5453. stostosto - 1/17/2000 10:14:52 AM
Kuligin
Has the opposition complained? Were there international observers of the election?
5454. stostosto - 1/17/2000 11:21:24 AM
I have a personal experience wrt hurt Russian national pride.
Some years ago, as part of my job, I did a little consulting for Danish companies who were starting to enter the newly opened Central and East European market. I also wrote a couple of articles in publications with a rather limited circulation. It was mostly assessments of the economic potential of these countries, but inevitably that involved some meausure of judgment of their political situations as well.
One day I received a phone call from a guy from the Russian embassy. Nice fellow. He spoke Danish very well, but preferred to talk in English, possibly because he felt that he was more on a level with me in that language.
He was engaged in promoting Russia to Danish companies, so he had a natural interest in what I was doing in the area and wanted to meet. This was fine with me. He might be a good contact, I thought.
So we met in my office over a cup of coffee and exchanged business cards and occupational backgrounds (my resume was fairly short at the time).
It turned out that his interest in things economic, promotional or otherwise, was in fact quite limited. He kept inquiring me about my opinions on Russian security concerns, the all-important one being the status of the Baltic countries ”What do you think of their possible joining NATO, Mr Olsen?”, he asked me. (He curiously kept calling me ”Mr Olsen” as if to remind himself who he was talking to).
- cont.
5455. stostosto - 1/17/2000 11:22:30 AM
Frankly, I cared very little whether these countries joined NATO or not. To me, the important question for them was whether they could join the EU, hence giving them access to the West European market, and vice versa. Likewise, the important question for Russia would be to develop trade links with the rest of the world as a basis for transforming and developing their economy. I have little patience with security policy. It’s boring and should be irrelevant. Especially since the Berlin Wall had come down, the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact was dissolved, the cold war had ended, and the name of the game for middle income countries like Russia should be catching up with the rich countries.
He, on the other hand, didn’t care one hoot about bothersome economic arrangements and developments. But the military implications of these countries’ possible joining NATO were, in his opinion, vital to Russia. He obviously wanted me to agree that Russia’s interests were threatened by this prospect, and that the Baltics were being ungrateful to Russia who, after all had let them have their independence (something he seemed to regard as a big mistake in the first place).
I was in great disbelief at this. Did he really imagine a situation where the West would launch an attack on Russia? Was he really stuck in such out-dated geopolitical considerations, even as he was supposed to promote Russian business? That was definitely the case. He talked and he talked, the meeting dragged on for hours as I got more and more impatient. It was Russia’s status as a great power that was on his mind and he seemingly wanted to convince me to put the Russian position forward in whatever public utterances I might make on the country.
5456. stostosto - 1/17/2000 11:23:03 AM
I had a few more meetings with him, and managed to get him to arrange for the Russian chargé d’affaires (they were between ambassadors) to appear at a meeting with Danish business contacts. He was very agreeable, always politely asked how my wife and kids were doing even sent me a bottle of vodka for christmas once. Otherwise it was a waste of time – for both parties. After the chargé d’affaires meeting he stopped calling me. I have a feeling he had been rebuked by his superiors for spending so much time on such an insignificant contact. Which in the event would have been a correct assessment. Especially if the purpose was to influence Danish public opinion about Russia’s vested – perceived – geopolitical interests.
My – regrettably stereotypical – conclusion is that the Russians are profoundly stuck in old-fashion power and geopolitics, much to their own detriment. They see everything in terms of winning and losing, whether it be trade, investment, or politics. They have very little understanding of the necessity to develop commercial contacts on a normal basis, including such concepts as predictable tariff and currency regimes, and credible protection of business investments whether Russian or foreign.
Even moderate, western-oriented Russians – such as this one genuinely was – feel a great loss of national pride. And they have very little trust in the West which they seem to admire for its technical and military strength, but not for its economic prosperity and political freedom. They believe westerners see power politics the same way, and that NATO’s widening is a contemplated imperial expansionary plot against Russia. It’s really quite depressing.
5457. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 11:24:28 AM
sto:
Like Mandela, and Havel are symbols for change and democracy in their respective countries.
I know he doesn't get the press internationally, but Gus Dur very much fits into this category.
5458. stostosto - 1/17/2000 11:30:37 AM
Irv,
I should have thought about Gus Dur whom you have done an excellent job of promoting in this forum. But did he also have a dissident-like status during Suharto?
5459. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 11:32:32 AM
Very, very good commentary, Sto3, which I hope will be archived. That (t)hey see everything in terms of winning and losing, whether it be trade, investment, or politics. They have very little understanding of the necessity to develop commercial contacts on a normal basis, including such concepts as predictable tariff and currency regimes, and credible protection of business investments whether Russian or foreign is, unfortunately, not peculiar to Russia but rather common to Communist and many third-world countries for whom commerce and foreign intercourse is limited.
5460. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 11:38:20 AM
The salvation, of course, is that the state of affairs, the attitude you describe, need only be temporary until gradually swept away by a better informed and better traveled citizenry whose businesses and economies become more interdependent on outside connections and influences.
5461. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 11:41:36 AM
sto:
But did he also have a dissident-like status during Suharto?
Absolutely. He was very outspoken, and often the Jakarta Post was the only newspaper which would carry his comments (and even those were heavily censored). The only thing which kept him out of prison was the fact that he was the head of Indonesia's largest islamic organization, and even Suharto wasn't ready to open that can of worms.
5462. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 11:44:51 AM
sto:
Your story of meeting the Russian is very well presented and says a lot. Thanks.
Pelle:
You may be interested to know that I spent last weekend in Bandung, where, if things had gone differently, I had hoped to meet up with you. The city has lost none of its vibrancy in the nearly two years since I had last been there. And the weather was refreshingly cool.
5463. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 12:25:20 PM
A few notes from tonight's Indonesian TV news and today's newspapers. Two of these items follow up recent discussions in this thread.
• Richard Holbrooke's recent comments on the possibility of a coup (see Pincher's Message # 5293) have gotten extensive play here, and have drawn public statements from Gus Dur and the military, all denying that there is any chance of a coup. The spin in the papers: it's a good thing Holbrooke made the comments, as it makes a coup less likely. People who do things like that like to do them in secret, and Holbrooke made this an international issue. For once, it seems, the USA's meddling has borne positive results.
• An Army Colonel who served in East Timor in the final days of Indonesian rule gave a press conference today, announcing that there were provable human rights abuses by TNI. The statement by Col. Geerhan Lantara represents another crack in TNI's attempted stonewall of the issue, and makes it more likely that there will be a real human rights trial with real results. Col. Geerhan gave details and indicated his support for full disclosure (placing him solidly in the Agus Wirahadikusuma camp in the military).
[continued]
5464. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 12:27:36 PM
• The Big Topic in the news for the past few days is the plan to increase civil servant and police salaries by 100% in order to fight corruption. After tremendous press criticism of the move (no one believes it would stop corruption), the government started backtracking today. Gus Dur said that the move is on hold. Finance Minister Bambang Sudibyo (who had first announced the plan) ate his words, on national TV, and Parliament Speaker Akbar Tanjung said that parliament would not ratify any national budget which included the salary hikes. The press (and Akbar) are calling for a clearer anti-corruption plan before raising salaries (which all parties agree is ultimately a necessary move). Needless to say, civil servants and police are not happy campers today.
5465. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 12:31:20 PM
The "price" of police and bureaucratic work just jumped.
5466. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 12:38:12 PM
ScottLoar:
What we're hoping is that the price will go down. But merely raising salaries won't do that.
5467. KuligintheHooligan - 1/17/2000 2:19:46 PM
"Has the opposition complained? Were there international observers of the election?"
sto, yes and yes. Unfortunately, that's about all I know. Obviously there isn't going to be anything done, if anything needs to be done about it.
5468. PelleNilsson - 1/17/2000 2:30:13 PM
My Mote time has been curtailed by work; a most unpleasant and unwelcome development which I hope to turn around soon.
Dusty
Thanks for the pictures and information about Mesa Verde. It certainly looks like it is worth seeing.
And, certainly, the pyramids are something to be seen. Although you have seen them on countless pictures and in countless films and TV programs they are awe-inspiring when you are actually there.
sto -- Message # 5444
Die Schadenfreude ist ja die schönste Freude, nicht?
For the wretched this gem of translation, courtesy Babelfish:
Harming joy is not the most beautiful joy?
The list is from an American magazine with the strange name Condé Nast Travelers and was reproduced in a newspaper here.
Message # 5454 and following.
Very interesting. The pattern is familiar. Young promising economist ... writes articles in small but influential publications... cozy chats ... vodka for Christmas ... favours rendered.
You were obviously being recruited as an agent of influence.
I do agree with the opinion of you and others that the lost pride of the Russians is a factor not to be neglected. I heard it expressed many times when I worked in Belarus in 1993. "Before we were poor but we were citizens of a great nation. Now we are only poor."
5469. Candide - 1/17/2000 4:02:05 PM
stostosto
That was the kind of response that I thought recent events warranted. Thank you.
He, on the other hand, didn’t care one hoot about bothersome
economic arrangements and developments. But the military
implications of these countries’ possible joining NATO were, in his
opinion, vital to Russia.
Although the Russians expressed this feeling repeatedly there was almost no sign that the West appreciated the genuine and potentially destructive emotions being experienced by the ex-USSR. Russia in particular. It is in this context that I think the West would be silly not to take the "new!" defence doctrine seriously.
continued
5470. Candide - 1/17/2000 4:02:52 PM
I think that it was you stostosto, some time back who said how much less successful postwar Britain had been than had Europe. I pointed out that it was the Marshall-Aid plan that had remade Europe, and I think it's important that something similar be tactfully administered in the old USSR - for everyone's sake. Tactfully, because of that huge Russian pride. I know enormous loans disappeared into fairyland. The recent revelations certainly discourage further effort, but the alternative is worse.
continued
5471. Candide - 1/17/2000 4:03:21 PM
I always thought that the West should have listened to Gorbachev who wanted a gradual change. You can't just dismantle a system and expect anything co-ordinated to rise out of the ashes. Especialy a country with a history like Russia's.
One of the crucial tasks is the destruction of nuclear warheads on both sides and the 'cleaning-up (haha)' of the incredibly dangerous nuclear detritus spread over land and in the sea. Decaying nuclear subs etc. Efforts to persevere with this task have slackened a little as the political urgency went out of people's consciousness. That's the point when other distractions of a less frightening (to some) and more entertaining nature took over the front pages of the newspapers. People were just sick of feeling frightened and depressed.
I nominate the Christchurch brass band rotunda as a sacred site.
5472. Candide - 1/17/2000 4:05:15 PM
There's a wonderful piece in The New YorkerJanuary 3, 2000.
"A Murder in Moscow" A cold war family story by Victor Erofeyev.
Remarkable.
5473. Candide - 1/17/2000 4:20:03 PM
IrvingSnodgrass
My neighbour who a major American bank transferred (before GusDur) to Jakarta was in charge of credit matters. He met the corruption full in the face. He was overwhelmed and incredulous. He is a typical banker. He has an economics degree and is very earnest and conventional.
5474. PelleNilsson - 1/17/2000 4:48:47 PM
Irv
This idea of combatting corruption by increasing salaries makes me wonder how far removed Gus Dur is from how the country he rules actually works.
5475. stostosto - 1/17/2000 4:53:20 PM
Loar #5459:
Thank you very much. I actually don't know about archiving. CalGal used to keep archives at the old place but she has been busy. But so far all posts in this thread are still accessible (I just checked).
#5460:
The salvation, of course, is that the state of affairs, the attitude you describe, need only be temporary until gradually swept away by a better informed and better traveled citizenry whose businesses and economies become more interdependent on outside connections and influences.
I agree completely. And it will eventually come about, bar ugly backlashes. The big question is how to speed up that process.
Irv (#5452) Thank you too. My pleasure.
Pelle (#5458):
Harming joy! Indeed. Especially when it involves Swedes.
Condé Nast is a glamourous gossip and fashion magazine publisher, I think. They throw insanely expensive parties with high attendance of celebrities. I once read an article about it in Slate.
You were obviously being recruited as an agent of influence.
Yes, and it was so glaringly obvious that it was almost pathetic. When he first made the contact, and occasionally during the period when it was on, I checked with my boss to make sure it was OK, and to ponder whether there might be any kinds of problems in this. (My boss was employed at the Danish ministry of defense some twenty years ago, so he knew a little of such things).
We couldn't think of any way this would be suspect. We were a private company, Russia was a friendly country, everything was out in the open, the meetings during normal working hours at our office and all.
But to continue such a game of "recruiting agents of influence" also signalled that the Russian foreign service was (/is) stuck in an ingrained pattern of cold war behaviour. The whole thing seemed so silly that I actually felt a little sorry for the embassy guy.
5476. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 4:56:24 PM
Sto3, we speed up that process by being "agents of influence" - we do business with them.
5477. stostosto - 1/17/2000 5:17:10 PM
Candide:
I pointed out that it was the Marshall-Aid plan that had remade Europe
I meant to answer that when you first made that statement, but never got around to it.
Britain got Marshall aid too, you know.
I have previously touted the Marshall plan at the old Fray and called it perhaps the most excellent piece of foreign policy ever devised. But its importance lay not so much in the aid itself which, though large, amounted to a limited fraction of European GDPs. It was in the American insistence that it be followed up by installation of market mechanisms, notably dismantling barriers to trade. The dollars made available by the plan made current account deficits sustainable, thus not acting as a tight limit on foreign trade.
The massive American commitment, also comprising continuing military presence, signalled that a market system was a durable, credible thing, thus promoting business confidence and long term investments.
Having been an allied in the great war, Britain didn't face as sharp requirements for its Marshall money, and possibly, understandably, leaned towards a position of well-deserved rest after the momentous war effort. This was a mistake, and one which crucially hinged on British policy.
You also mentioned the British loss of empire after the war. I believe the colonies had long since stopped being profitable for Britain and more and more became a drain. A common course of development in colonial powers. (We have a similar situation in mini-format in Denmark in our relations with Greenland and the Faroe Islands).
5478. stostosto - 1/17/2000 5:35:11 PM
I always thought that the West should have listened to Gorbachev who wanted a gradual change
The West listened a lot to Gorbachev. He wasn't toppled by the West but by some clueless Soviet generals, as you may recall. Yeltsin stood up to them, seized the opportunity and dismantled the Soviet Union.
Everybody would have wanted things to go differently in Russia than they have. But I think it's highly unclear what steps the West could have taken to secure a better outcome.
The responsibility lies with Yeltsin. And there is a case for arguing that the western money was given far too lavishly with far too few strict conditions attached. In effect similar to the British experience I mentioned.
Why, known huge scams apart, Russia has consistently been running current account surpluses since 1991. Meaning that there has been a net outflow of money from the country in a situation where new investment was badly needed.
The privatisation process was badly bungled, and you might say that western advisers were far too naïve in their approach to that. But Russians bungled it themselves, and they did it despite western advice which was technically more or less on target. But the degree to which former apparatchiks and nomenklatura were able - and willing - to loot and plunder was unforeseen.
5479. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 6:00:25 PM
You have the patience of a Baptist minister, Sto3.
5480. Dusty - 1/17/2000 6:07:30 PM
Irv, I was surprised at the allegation (in the Economist) that Megawati has done little wrt the Moluccas. Is that your sense?
The fighting has caused a predictable backlash elsewhere. Thousands of Muslims have protested in Jakarta and called on Mr Wahid to put an immediate end to the violence. Some have also demanded the resignation of the vice-president, Megawati Sukarnoputri, whom Mr Wahid has made personally responsible for bringing peace to the Moluccas. Although she has visited Ambon, the provincial capital, Miss Megawati has said or done little else. Most worrying is that some protesters are demanding a jihad (holy war) against the Christians in the Moluccas. For their part, the Christians are clamouring for more security.{emphasis added]
5481. Candide - 1/17/2000 6:12:44 PM
stostosto
What you say is obviously correct, but I think it's a waste of time to aportion blame to any sector.
I was unsure whether or not Britain received aid. There was a confused psychology in Britain. After all they had won hadn't they? Well, they were told that they had won. I arrived there in the early 1960s and the mood was still very defensive and strange.
You also mentioned the British loss of empire after the war. I believe the colonies had long since stopped being profitable for Britain and more and more became a drain. A common course of development in colonial powers. (We have a similar situation in mini-format in Denmark in our relations with Greenland and the Faroe Islands).
The farming sector of New Zealand, the land of my, Alistair's, and SnowOwl's birth, became extremely rich during and for some time after WW2 by supplying huge quantities of food to Britain. I think that this was of some material assistance to the British as well as to New Zealand farmers.
Russia again:
Everybody would have wanted things to go differently in Russia than
they have. But I think it's highly unclear what steps the West could
have taken to secure a better outcome.
I think that the collaboration about reducing and dismantling nuclear warheads was a huge gesture of trust from both sides. The NATO expansion undermined that historically remarkable trust and I think that this was unappreciated by many in the West. From this point a certain deterioration has crept into the relationship. Economic development will help but not completely cure this problem.
5482. Candide - 1/17/2000 6:16:42 PM
5479. ScottLoar
You have the patience of a Baptist minister, Sto3.
And you have the intelligence of one MrLoar.
5483. Candide - 1/17/2000 6:26:03 PM
stostosto
he West listened a lot to Gorbachev. He wasn't toppled by the West
but by some clueless Soviet generals, as you may recall. Yeltsin
stood up to them, seized the opportunity and dismantled the Soviet
Union.
Certainly. The heroic images on the tank were spoiled by that memorable locking of eyes when Yeltsin stared down Gorbachev in the parliament. That should have warned us.
Everybody would have wanted things to go differently in Russia than they have. But I think it's highly unclear what steps the West could have taken to secure a better outcome.
With the wisdom of hindsight, much stricter conditions (and a much greater respect for national sensitivities) as you go on to say .
... the western money was given far too lavishly with far too few
strict conditions attached.
5484. Candide - 1/17/2000 6:28:13 PM
apPortion. sigh
5485. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 6:36:12 PM
My unsolicited opinion is that Megawati is Vice President by reason of her father's popular memory which inspired mass support and so she could not immediately be condigned to calculated disregard. She lost the Presidency exactly because she choose to spend her time trafficking with spiritualists (probably conversing with Daddy) rather than work with political colleagues to gain a coalition of support. She seems a worthless twit. Her appointment will confirm so as is now happening.
5486. Candide - 1/17/2000 6:57:51 PM
MrLoar
A language question. I have never seen the adjective 'condign' used as a verb before. Did you mean conSign?
5487. Candide - 1/17/2000 7:05:27 PM
I'm a lousy touch-typer. Looking at the keyboard I see that conSign was intended.
5488. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 8:27:50 PM
Yes, consign.
Moreover, because of Megawati's popular support it may have been reasonable to assume her presence, her handling of the Moluccas, could cool things down. Yet she's inept and seemingly disinterested.
5489. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 8:29:49 PM
I originally intended "chose" past tense rather than present tense.
5490. ScottLoar - 1/17/2000 8:29:51 PM
I originally intended "chose" past tense rather than present tense.
5491. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/17/2000 9:07:14 PM
Pelle:
This idea of combatting corruption by increasing salaries makes me wonder how far removed Gus Dur is from how the country he rules actually works.
It wasn't Gus Dur's idea, and he was relegated to damage control when his Finance Minister Bambang Sudibyo presented the harebrained scheme. Bambang is an academic (he was a professor of Management, strangely enough) and had no political experience before being thrust into the role of Finance Minister in October. He was rewarded with the post for his support of Amien Rais when Gus Dur found he had to pay back political favors. Bambang has been showing his incompetence fairly regularly, and probably won't last too long.
Dusty:
Irv, I was surprised at the allegation (in the Economist) that Megawati has done little wrt the Moluccas.
I haven't been surprised. Mega didn't impress me during the campaigns and the presidential elections last year. She has no depth, and has gotten where she is solely by virtue of the (somewhat flawed) memory of her father. Her supporters are enthusiastic but have no idea what she stands for or believes in. Her performance in Maluku has been pitiful. She has done absolutely nothing to quell the violence in a province which supported her in the elections. Scott Loar's comments Message # 5485 and Message # 5488 are right on target.
5492. hashke - 1/17/2000 10:48:24 PM
Dusty:
Irv, I was surprised at the allegation (in the Economist) that Megawati has done little wrt the Moluccas.
I haven't been surprised. Mega didn't impress me during the campaigns and the presidential elections last year. She has no depth, and has gotten where she is solely by virtue of the (somewhat flawed) memory of her father.
Irv:
Mebbe Megawati is only Kilowati.
5493. RustlerPike - 1/18/2000 1:35:41 AM
Hashke Rules!!!
5494. hashke - 1/18/2000 9:49:37 AM
Hey, Pike:
A little appreciation goes a long way!
Without the Rustler's presence these silly little word plays of mine would be like Bishop Berkeley's tree.
Thunk!
5495. ScottLoar - 1/18/2000 10:34:17 AM
Others of us dare not encourage you.
5496. hashke - 1/18/2000 11:18:37 AM
Scott:
Hahaha!
A pun breaks no bones.
Apologies to Dr. Johnson.
5497. marjoribanks - 1/18/2000 12:11:14 PM
Hello all, no time to comment today just to say that the last few hundred posts make for most excellent reading. More. More.
Pak Hashke, I made the same pun a couple of years ago at the old place.
5498. hashke - 1/18/2000 12:13:26 PM
Pak marj:
Did Loar encourage or encroach?
5499. marjoribanks - 1/18/2000 12:16:19 PM
Ignore, Pak Hashke. Before you came along, and Pak Gurubesar, this was a lonely and cold place for a punk to hang out in.
5500. ScottLoar - 1/18/2000 12:58:11 PM
Hashke, I've never yet told you - your moniker is somewhat between a stifled sneeze and a cough.
5501. hashke - 1/18/2000 1:37:00 PM
And Loar's soars?
5502. hashke - 1/18/2000 1:38:31 PM
Pak marj:
Ignore Loar?
5503. RustlerPike - 1/18/2000 1:58:42 PM
This is from a site that says if the world were a village of 1000 people, it would include:
584 Asians
124 Africans
84 Latin Americans
95 Eastern/Western Europeans
55 Russians
52 North Americans
4 Australians
2 New Zealanders
and the languages spoken would look like this: 
5504. RustlerPike - 1/18/2000 2:02:08 PM
Three Jews!! (one for the village bank, one for the store, and one packing a mini Uzi?)
5505. PelleNilsson - 1/18/2000 2:13:03 PM
I guess you'd have to do without any pleasant, joking Heringistas in that village.
5506. hashke - 1/18/2000 2:20:32 PM
Pelle:
There is some info on publishing for you in Language #2605. You may have missed it.
5507. Candide - 1/18/2000 3:26:54 PM
I take the lesson that non-religious New Zealanders should watch out for themselves.
5508. PelleNilsson - 1/18/2000 4:36:25 PM
Here is the IHT's impressions of the mood on the Golan Heights.
A question for Rustler. The reporters write that
For decades, the military, which captured the Golan after brutal battles in 1967, considered the area a strategic necessity to defend northern Israel against what used to be sporadic shelling by Syria. Now, though, in the face of what some maintain to be a severely deteriorated Syrian Army, it is reassessing its security plans.
This, I feel, is typical American short-termism. Sure, Syria is down and under right now. But in 20 years? 50 years? Surely Israel looks at this in the long term? Assume a situation where Syria is reconciled with Iraq, which has been allowed to resume arms production, because the Powers once again need to balance an expansionist Iran.
So what has really changed since 1967? Has the technology of war made territory less significant?
5509. PelleNilsson - 1/18/2000 4:39:18 PM
And, Rustler, what is your take on the postponment of the third round?
5510. PelleNilsson - 1/18/2000 5:04:34 PM
...postponement ....
5511. PelleNilsson - 1/18/2000 5:07:38 PM
sto
OK, OK, we cannot completely do away with racism.
But Danish racists attacking Swedes?
5512. stostosto - 1/18/2000 5:23:27 PM
Rustler:
I promised you a comment on Richard Møller Nielsen, Israel's new national football coach, also known as 'Ricardo'.
He is without any shred of doubt the most successful Danish football coach ever, as he was - as you know - in charge of the team that won the European Championship in 1992. That was a truly unique achievement, one that had never happened before, and is extremely unlikely to ever happen again.
It's doubtlessly the best Danish sports result of all times. All the more so, since the team was called in for the tournament at the last minute as a replacement for the Yugoslavian team which had been banned because of the on-going atrocities there. To assemble a bunch of dispersed vacationing footballers and in a matter of weeks have them perform and go on to win the bloody cup, in the process drawing England and beating France, Holland and Germany - that's no mean feat.
Yet, here is the strange thing: Ricardo is not popular here. Not with the media, not with the players, and not with the people at large. Far short of enthusiasm about him, the most people can manage is politeness. And he is not happy about that, in fact it's fair to say that he is a little bitter at what he feels is a failure to acknowledge his unquestionable achievements.
5513. stostosto - 1/18/2000 5:24:14 PM
Why is this so? It's not because of some imaginary Nordic cool and calm temper, I can tell you. All the players are still celebrated, and the event is memorised regularly on TV. (Shortly before New Year, they broadcast the final against Germany in full!)
It's more to do with the circumstances surrounding his employment as national coach in the first place, his possible inferiority complex vis-a-vis some of the star players - certainly arrogant to some extent, but that's not unheard of in the world of top football - and his own thin skin when critisized combining with a tendency to bear grudges seemingly indefinitely, all resulting in a constantly sour relationship with the media.
I hope he has learned something from all this plus his subsequent period as Finnish national coach (he must have!). But I also hope he doesn't start off on the wrong foot in Israel the way he did here.
(Jeeez. Am I telling you more than you want to know?)
5514. stostosto - 1/18/2000 5:25:56 PM
Pelle:
What are you talking about?
5515. stostosto - 1/18/2000 5:46:43 PM
Rustler:
I have more comments on Ricardo if you want. And I am very interested in knowing how he is received in Israel.
I also promised you highlights from a Danish newspaper reportage on the Israel-Denmark game. I just re-read the article and I was laughing out loud several times.
And then I promised Pelle some comments on Danish parallels with Sweden as recounted in his Concise History.
Plus, I am apparently going to answer for what some Danish racists have done to Swedes.
And then there are all the other things I would like to comment on here, such as Candide's ready-made foreign policy suggestions on Russia.
And Pincher's minor misreadings of my messages to him.
But, these things will have to wait. I have to log out now.
Good night.
Slut.
(NO, I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU, CAL!)
5516. CalGal - 1/19/2000 12:15:49 AM
Hell, no. Dusty's the slut. Pelle says so.
What does that mean, anyway?
5517. PelleNilsson - 1/19/2000 12:59:06 AM
CalGal
"Slut" means "the end" or "finished".
sto
It was reported here yesterday that a Swedish family living in the village of Söllersted on the west side of Fyn had their car burnt out and the walls of the house spray-painted with nazi symbols and the slogans "Denmark for the Danes!" and "Swedish Pigs!".
5518. Candide - 1/19/2000 1:09:31 AM
Stostosto
Candide's ready-made foreign policy suggestions on
Russia ?
What ready-made foreign policy suggestions?
I expressed some regrets.
5519. stostosto - 1/19/2000 4:00:19 AM
I also promised to look for English language links to stories on the Danish immigrant debate:
Lines drawn in immigrant debate
From the Copenhagen Post.
Responding to complaints from an angry delegation of Social Democrat mayors representing urban districts with a high number of immigrant residents, Home Secretary Thorkild Simonsen has promised to curb the flow of refugees to these districts. Meanwhile, Liberal led councils are claiming their integration problems have been solved using positive immigrant employment policies.
5520. stostosto - 1/19/2000 4:02:11 AM
That was precisely the episode I talked about some days ago and which sparked some, shall we say, miscommunication between Scottboy and me.
5521. stostosto - 1/19/2000 4:34:48 AM
Candide:
I get your point about the need to take Russian national sensitivies into account, so as not to alienate them and radicalise their political scene.
I disagree that this has not figured in the western policy towards Russia. On the contrary, I think it lays behind much of the leniency towards Russia in credit and loan policy, as we discussed earlier.
The NATO expansion is not initiated by NATO, and has been done very reluctantly, and so far only comprised Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. The Baltic countries haven't been admitted. And there is absolutely no doubt that this is because of Russian pressure.
The dilemma is: These countries dearly want to join NATO and are continuously pressing on for NATO to admit them. (They have an ally in Denmark, by the way, as we like to think that we have a special relationship with the Balts). But the USA is wary of upsetting Russia, so they are not going to be let in.
It's hard to construe this as blatant NATO aggression. In fact, it looks much more like a policy driven by an overriding concern about not offending Russia.
Looked at from the perspective of the Baltic countries (and from countries like Slovakia, Romania, and possibly the former Yugoslavian republics and Bulgaria who haven't been allowed either), it looks more like they are being let down by the West.
5522. stostosto - 1/19/2000 5:01:13 AM
Russia is going to have to face the fact that they have no right to interfere with other countries. The Baltics were brutally occupied by the Soviet Union, had their historical ties with the West cut, they ere annexed, communistified, and consciously Russified by a policy of urging Russians to move to these countries. Much as the Chinese are doing in Tibet. This policy succeeded to the extent that the nationals of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania only make up between half and two-thirds of the population.
People there tell hideous tales of what the Russians did to them. Their independence was hard won compared to other former Soviet republics. They all had big popular, peaceful independence movements in the 80s. In Lithuania the calls for independence were even joined by the local Soviet bosses. (The top Soviet leader of that country was later rewarded by being democratically elected president).
They were rewarded by the Soviet Union by having their energy supplies cut off. And there was even a bloody incidence in Vilnius, Lithuania, where the Soviet commander cracked down and forcibly captured the republic's TV station with the loss of 13 lives. This was in 1989, I believe. Gorbachev cannot be excused for the responsibility for this. He never convincingly distanced himself from the events, let alone fired the commander etc. Yes, he had other political considerations. But he was in charge.
The bottom line: It's not all that strange that the Baltic countries continue to be uneasy about their colossal neighbour and, out of their own free will, urgently want to join NATO.
And why would NATO reject them? Well, NATO has so far.
5523. stostosto - 1/19/2000 5:01:24 AM
Russians have a right to nurture their national pride, just like everybody else, but they simply must find other ways of doing it than at the expense of other countries. The sooner they realise this, the better. And it's debatable whether the West's continuing sensitivities about Russia's out-dated imperial ways are helping them to.
Perhaps they should take heed of the German and Japanese experience after WWII.
5524. stostosto - 1/19/2000 5:16:30 AM
Speaking of boosting Russian national pride, I don't think incidences such as this one help much either:
Russia complains over Canadian newspaper's insult
By David Ljunggren
OTTAWA, Jan 18 (Reuters) - Canada said on Tuesday that Russian diplomats had
complained twice about a Canadian newspaper editorial which branded Russia a
filthy and corrupt ``lump of dung'' where nothing good would ever happen.
``Russian officials raised the article with their Canadian counterparts in
Moscow and Ottawa to register their regret over the piece,'' said foreign
ministry spokeswoman Valerie Noftle.
Although she stressed that Moscow had not formally protested about the Ottawa
Citizen article earlier this month, Russian diplomats in Ottawa did little to
hide their outrage.
They said Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, who wrote to the daily newspaper
to say the piece reminded him of Nazi propaganda, had himself contacted
officials at the Canadian foreign ministry.
``They agreed it was insulting. We hope there will be more respect for Russia
in future and that such incidents will not be repeated,'' a Russian diplomat
told Reuters.
In the offending article, editorial writer John Robson said there was no
chance that Russia's new acting president Vladimir Putin would ever turn
Russia into a normal state.
``Normal for Russia is filthy, corrupt, menacing and hollow. Nothing good has
happened there, nor will it. Russia is a lump of dung wrapped in a cabbage
leaf hidden in an outhouse,'' he wrote, before detailing low points of
Russian and Soviet history.
(cont.)
5525. stostosto - 1/19/2000 5:17:49 AM
``Russia is doomed by history and culture. It stinks, literally and
figuratively, and always has. People there have no manners...The bottom line
is: Russia has sucked, sucks and will suck,'' he wrote.
The article prompted a flood of angry letters, something Noftle said had been
raised with the Russians.
``Canadian officials pointed out that the strong response among the Canadian
public in the form of letters to the editor indicated the original article
should not be considered as mainstream opinion in Canada,'' she said.
Churkin said in a letter to the newspaper that never in his 25 years in the
diplomatic service had he seen an article ``so clearly below even the lowest
standards of civility.''
He added: ``This malicious display of Russophobia is reminiscent of Nazi
propaganda. Fanning ethnic or national hatred has since been universally
recognised as a most degrading pursuit.''
Officials at the Ottawa Citizen were not available for comment.
end
5526. stostosto - 1/19/2000 6:27:06 AM
Pelle:
I just digged up an article about that anti-Swede attack on Fyn. It hasn't been reported very extensively here and had completely escaped my attention.
The common view here is that those behind it, rather than being racist, or xenophobic, are simply complete nuts.
But, you have to say this for them: Picking on Swedes demonstrate that they are totally free from ethnic or racist bias in their xenophobia. Normally such people clearly distinguish between "good" foreigners (those from rich, western countries) and "bad" foreigners (those from poor, muslim countries). But these seem refreshingly free of such prejudice...
5527. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 10:35:54 AM
How very charitable of you, Sto. Xenophobes get brownie points for not being racist.
All,
We discussed Patels and Motels and Ugandan Asian immigrants to the US some time ago. Here's a mundane article with some more details. Why link a mundane article? Don't have any better gifs to offer you.
5528. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 10:53:23 AM
A few days ago, I mentioned that my website had received hundreds of letters from around the world over the past year, all in English. Wouldn't you know it, but today we received our first letter in another language... a letter in Spanish from Puerto Rico (of all places -- aren't they supposed to be Americans?).
Since I don't speak Spanish, I tried running the letter through AltaVista's translator. Here's what it came up with:
We are interested in buying its products and quisiearamos to be able to contact with you to animate relizar purchases to them. At the moment we have two stores located in one of the zones but turisticas of old San Juan in Puerto Rico, dedicated on sale of artesania of some places different from the world, I think that artesania of Indonesesia podria to have great acceptance in the local market like turistico. I mention local market to them because also we dedicated ourselves to sell to by greater in the different towns from the island. Please haganos to arrive ready from prices of its products to have an idea of the cost of these.
It looks like mechanical translation still needs work.
5529. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 10:57:22 AM
Irva,
Old San Juan is full of very interesting little stores selling 'artesania'. You should pursue the matter, I bet it can develop into a very nice little market for you.
5530. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:06:43 AM
Marj:
Fortunately, "artesania" is one of the few words I do understand (I believe it means "handicrafts"). We'll see if this customer finds our "precios" attractive, and if he can understand my reply, which will be in English (I don't trust AltaVista to produce a reasonable reply).
5531. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 11:13:14 AM
As he is from Puerto Rico I've no doubt your English reply will be understood but his correspondence will doubtlessly continue in Spanish.
5532. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:17:11 AM
ScottLoar:
No problem by me... if AltaVista fails me, my business partner (BG Pelaire) has a passable knowledge of Spanish (though he told me this letter said something like "I am but a poor farmer...").
5533. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 11:20:14 AM
I was stunned to find entire stores selling Indian woodcrafts and copper in Old San Juan more than a decade ago. Then, of course, the phenomenon went big time in the USA, with places like the exorbitantly priced ABC megastore in NYC crammed with Indian goods marked up several thousand percent accompanied by the rapid depletion of the antique woodcarvings (especially old doors and chests) in various parts of India especially Gujerat.
Meanwhile, the domestic market goes for molded plastic and the middle class yearns for Ikea.
5534. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 11:24:38 AM
I've no doubt BG Pelaire is a competent and trustworthy man of integrity else you would not likely be in partnership with him. I also know that when meeting customers you'd best keep him out of the conference room for fear that he will be taken seriously.
5535. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:25:15 AM
Marj:
The situation here is not much different. My customers mark things up an average of 20 times what they pay me for the goods (and I double what I pay for the stuff when I sell it to them). We won't deal in antiques or old carvings, though the situation is similar to what you describe (there is now a huge market in fake antiques).
The difference is that the Balinese decorate their homes with Balinese carvings and eschew western style furniture and decor.
5536. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 11:26:59 AM
Yes! Save those antiques and old carvings for me! Me!
5537. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 11:27:21 AM
Me, thief of time.
5538. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:27:57 AM
ScottLoar:
Never fear. No one would ever take BG seriously.
5539. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:32:20 AM
ScottLoar:
If you visit here, I will show you some incredible original carvings and panels in old teak.
5540. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 11:33:51 AM
The one time actually got pissed off was in Mexico City, when I entered a showroom entitled something like Artes Catolico to find literally dozens of centuries-old wood carvings of saints (orignials) ripped off from churches in Goa and Kerala. Not that I'm religious or anything, but the sight of these statues and the knowledge that they were clearly stolen and illegally exported threw me into a fit of rage. I berated the proprietor and vowed to inform the authorities. The Indian Ambassador to Mexico (a Catholic, by the way) told me to stop bitching, because a much bigger rip-off was happening from the poorly guarded Hindu temples in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.
5541. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:34:36 AM
It must be about time to put Indonesia back on your itinerary. The economy has rebounded somewhat, and imported goods are once again within reach.
5542. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 11:36:54 AM
The story of Indian antiques and art and their popularity in certain parts of the West is an unremittingly depressing cyle of thievery, corruption and huge profits.
5543. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:37:37 AM
(5541 was to ScottLoar)
Marj:
Indonesia is much better at protecting its antiquities. The penalties are serious, and are strictly enforced.
5544. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 11:41:12 AM
Oh the penalties are serious in India too, Irv, and the laws are extremely strict, even severe. The point is, these mean nothing in practice and anyone can walk into a store in India and buy something (possibly stolen) that is precious and ancient, and get the proprietor to label it recently made, and walk through customs without any hassle.
5545. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 11:44:25 AM
Marj:
The Indonesian authorities check all handicrafts leaving the country (I've had customers hassled a number of times). The authorities are very good at spotting true antiqoes.
5546. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 11:47:59 AM
Good for Indonesia. Would that other countries in the region emulated them. Cambodia, source of some of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, is losing huge parts of its cultural patrimony and so are other countries like Laos, Myanmar, and even Thailand.
India still has a vast bounty of these objects which are prized in the Western markets, but certain areas (Gujerat's Saurashtra for instance) are visibly depleted.
5547. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 11:57:16 AM
A true story. I visited Vietnam several times a year until two or three years ago, and on my first visit was pleasantly surprised by the laxity over cultural antiquities as could commonly be seen in certain shops (not to be confused with imitations aplenty). On my last exit my bags were thoroughly X-rayed and the examiner said to another hai cai meaning "two pieces". So, bag and me were brought over to a table where sat two cultural examiners, quite young guys actually. The one asked to see the pieces as I explained they were traditional Vietnamese water pipes - which was true but not fully true for the pots were antique. He told me "I let you have this because it's Chinese Ch'ing Dynasty. This one is Cham but chipped. You can take both." I packed them away with thanks, remarking "Ah, you know." He looked me level in the eye to say, "And you know too."
I do have a Vietnamese lime pot for beetlenut ca. 1300's and some few other things.
The biggest thefts I've seen on public display are in shops in and around Cat's Alley in Hong Kong, where the bulk of the antiquities are from Pakistan Buddhist temples, beautifully worked and understandably very expensive. No, I don't buy, just admire.
5548. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 11:58:36 AM
No, the bulk of antiquities in and around Cat's Alley are Chinese. I met to say that the bulk of non-Chinese high quality antiquities in some few shops are from Pakistan.
5549. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 12:00:57 PM
I add that in my search for antiques locals usually question my intelligence for wanting such things and think I'm a perfect fool for buying such "old and useless things".
5550. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 12:02:14 PM
Contrast this with some few others who think any old piece worth high ransom. From the ancient Greeks through to the Victorians and the present day a lot of crap was made, and remains crap regardless of age.
5551. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 12:05:34 PM
The Gandhara stuff. Don't get me started on that.
But Loar, surely you realize that the bulk of precious contaband antiquities aren't carried out of these countries in suitcases through the national airport, but smuggled across porous borders to places where they can be freely transported to where the markets are.
Of course, the case can be made that these things are better off and better preserved in the foreign countries anyway. But I've no time to explore that avenue. I'm off to lunch.
5552. Uzmakk - 1/19/2000 12:09:23 PM
I was reading back concerning "football" between Pelle and Sto which brings to mind the fact that I have been considering pushing for a soccer team at my son's school. I would be willing to coach. In fact, would like to coach. But what a drain. So much to do.
5553. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/19/2000 12:10:38 PM
he case can be made that these things are better off and better preserved in the foreign countries anyway
The famous Elgin excuse.
5554. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 12:10:49 PM
But of course. Do I think a one-ton statue of a sitting Buddha is carried through as hand baggage? The fact is, especially as regards Asian antiquities, once removed from the country of origin there are few effective controls in regaining or even recognizing the objects. You think Hong Kong authorities care about the control of Buddhist statuary from Pakistan?
Italy's and Greece' patrimony is now being somewhat controlled internationally only because such a stink was raised by the outrageous thefts of the last several decades, but Pakistan? India? Cambodian antiquities receive more recognition and control than those of Burma I assure you.
5555. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 12:13:26 PM
If you want to read a tear-jerker read the narrative of Elgin's Italian thief as he described (yes, he himself was in tears) as one of the marble friezes collapsed and smashed into pieces on the ground.
5556. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 1:17:27 PM
Gentlemen,
I think the argument can be made, reasonably, that certain things are better off in places other than where they are part of the cultural patrimony. I cite the Gandhara Graeco-Buddhist sculptures, gorgeous intriguing works, as a very good example. In Pakistan they are ignored at best, left to crumble. In Afghanistan, they are actively attacked on occasion. Several monumental, incalculably precious, works have been ruined in this last decade by people who for one reason or another took offense to them. I'd imagine something similar went on during the Cultural Revolution in China.
And I must admit, with great sorrow, that the Archaeological Survey of India, large as it is, is one of the most ham-fisted and incompetent and unaware and corrupt of all the Indian bureaucratic establishments. It quite often desecrates even in preservation efforts. I was dismayed to find that they did extensive work at Angkor Wat. Thankfully, that tenure has ended.
Nothing compares with seeing something beautiful in the place where it was meant to be displayed, but if the alternative is destruction I'm all for it being preserved in the West.
Obviously, the case of the Elgin marbles is not covered by this caveat.
5557. marjoribanks - 1/19/2000 1:32:00 PM
Interesting also, is the discussion in the Politics thread.
I bring it up here because of Ronski's very open and clear statements about 'gaydar' and how for him it involves eye contact. Now, it may be true that American males avoid eye contact, but I don't find that the case with many other people. Congenitally and by training, I make extended eye-contact with everyone I am interacting directly with. I think it's the case for most Indian males. We gaze soulfully into each others eyes with no limit. Pseuder would no doubt cite it a reason why Pakistanis consider Indian males no better than women.
I've found that Japanese and Koreans eschew extended eye-contact, but most other Asian males are predisposed to it. Any comments?
5558. ScottLoar - 1/19/2000 2:35:49 PM
I give you one example of wanton destruction inspired during the Cultural Revolution. Calligraphy carved into a mountainside and admired for most of the last millennium crudely hacked away to leave nothing but a scar.
The scale dwarfs the destruction of the French Revolution.
5559. Candide - 1/19/2000 3:32:46 PM
stostosto
I was already aware of the brutal Russian colonial exploitation in the baltic countries. I have published a book in which there is a description of the virtual enslavement of some Estonians conscripts who were exploited in the cleaning up process after Chernobyl. I also was aware of the military bullying after (was it Latvia?) had declared its desire for independence.
It's hard to construe this as blatant NATO aggression.
I at no time have thought or stated that there was any blatant NATO aggression. I understand why such a development would have seemed desirable from many points of view. The cold-war associations of the name NATO was the mistake in my view. I think a new alliance with a different name might have been formed with (as I realise was suggested to Russia at the time) Russia as a potential member.
continued
5560. Candide - 1/19/2000 3:33:42 PM
Russians have a right to nurture their national pride, just like
everybody else, but they simply must find other ways of doing it than at the expense of other countries. The sooner they realise this, the better. And it's debatable whether the West's continuing
sensitivities about Russia's out-dated imperial ways are helping
them to.
Russia isn't a naughty child who needs discipline. It's a great big wounded dangerous bear who must be handled intelligently for the sake of the countries surrounding it as well as for its own sake.
continued
5561. Candide - 1/19/2000 3:34:10 PM
Last night I was talking to a woman who has been in touch with a Russian woman (who was a major contributor to the book mentioned above) living in Ukraine who was once a famous writer and journalist. This once successful sophisticated writer now subsists on gruel. I had another begging letter from a woman who although a party member in the old days had demonstrated with environmentalists at a great risk to her own family in the Crimea. She is completely destitute. Multiply this by millions and the build-up of anger and resentment within Russia becomes a force to consider.
For the paranoid among Moties (perish the thought) I have never even flirted with communism. The book was about the lives of ordinary people after Chernobyl.
I realise that those living in Sweden and Denmark will have a different feeling about events. I'm sure I would too in your shoes.
5562. Uzmakk - 1/19/2000 3:36:01 PM
Love ya, Candide, you old bag.
5563. Candide - 1/19/2000 3:39:08 PM
hey were rewarded by the Soviet Union by having their energy
supplies cut off. And there was even a bloody incidence in Vilnius,
Lithuania, where the Soviet commander cracked down and forcibly
captured the republic's TV station with the loss of 13 lives. This was in 1989, I believe. Gorbachev cannot be excused for the responsibility for this. He never convincingly distanced himself from the events, let alone fired the commander etc. Yes, he had other political considerations. But he was in charge.
It's an inadequate and egotistically absurd answer, but I had a letter published in a newspaper about this very event. I was extremely aware of it.
5564. Candide - 1/19/2000 3:50:18 PM
You're a bit of orlright yerself, Uzmakk.
5565. Candide - 1/19/2000 3:52:25 PM
marjoribanks, IrvingSnodgrass, MrLoar
I loved your discussion about stolen treasures.
Italy now has a police branch dedicated eclusively to this task. Is anything similar in existence elsewhere?
5566. Uzmakk - 1/19/2000 3:57:14 PM
Indeed, Ms. Candid.
5567. Uzmakk - 1/19/2000 3:58:04 PM
oh, excuse me, Mrs. Candide.
5568. Candide - 1/19/2000 4:00:42 PM
Oh no Uzmakk. Forgive the impertinence but I think of you as a friend. I make friends very easily.
5569. Candide - 1/19/2000 4:04:48 PM
On formal occasions I use Ms which infuriates the simple minded.
I had an elderly intellectual aunt who was called Miss while my mother was called Mrs.
My brother and I as children were respectively Master and Miss.
When he grew up my brother became Mr but I remained Miss.
Ms gets rid of all that rubbish.
To people who say they can't pronounce it I reply:"You are a misery".
5570. stostosto - 1/19/2000 4:15:27 PM
Candide:
I think it was former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt who once compared Russia to "Upper Volta with nuclear arms". Not very polite, perhaps, but not totally inapt either.
"Handling Russia intelligently" -how could anyone disagree with that? But does that involve letting them have their way with any and all the countries that they have previously run over, occupied and mishandled in gross ways, such countries as they call "the near abroad"?
Actually, I do think Russia can be compared to a naughty child - but not one that needs discipline. It needs to grow up.
I think Russians are behaving more stupid than they are.
5571. Uzmakk - 1/19/2000 4:19:34 PM
Yes, Ms. Candide.
5572. Candide - 1/19/2000 4:46:56 PM
Uzmakk
You may call me Candy.
Stostosto who already has,
You're probably right about the Russian behaviour. The trouble is the same statement may be applied to most countries at one time or another.
I guess my chief concern is that as few people get hurt and as few things get smashed as possible. A laudable aim which I know we share.
5573. Candide - 1/19/2000 4:50:17 PM
stostosto
But does that involve letting them have their way with any and
all the countries that they have previously run over, occupied and
mishandled in gross ways, such countries as they call "the near
abroad"?
Never advocated that. Dead against it in fact.
Have you read Imperium by Ryszard Kapuscinski?
5574. Candide - 1/19/2000 5:02:42 PM
IrvingSnodgrass#5528
Very funny.
5575. stostosto - 1/19/2000 6:28:40 PM
Candide:
I think that the collaboration about reducing and dismantling nuclear warheads was a huge gesture of trust from both sides. The NATO expansion undermined that historically remarkable trust and I think that this was unappreciated by many in the West. From this point a certain deterioration has crept into the relationship. Economic development will help but not completely cure this problem.
So, the NATO expansion undermined the historically remarkable trust, you say. So, NATO shouldn't have expanded. So, Russia should have had its way over countries that it previously had run over (Pol, Czech, Hung.), occupied and mishandled grossly. (So far, it has got its way over the Baltics and other countries).
That's how I read that.
In sum: The way to keep Russia's trust is to let it have its way in dominating other countries. You may be right. Russia will trust NATO if NATO always bend to Russian whims.
But I don't think that's fair, nor reasonable, nor desirable. It's note even desirable for Russia herself, dammit! That's my whole point. I think Russia will have to grow up and realise that this is not the 19th century anymore, it's not even the bloody 20th. Great powers are not measured in terms of how many other countries and peoples they can oppress, but in terms of what opportunities they offer their own citizens economically, politically, socially, culturally. They have got to focus on getting their house in order, and instead they are grumbling about the West.
Your later posts indicate that you don't think that such a way of gaining Russian trust is fair either. But what is your position, then? All you have offered is to have NATO renamed. Do you really, really, really think that that would have done the trick?!
5576. Candide - 1/19/2000 7:12:28 PM
stostosto
You quote me: " I think that the collaboration about reducing and dismantling nuclear warheads was a huge gesture of trust from both sides. The NATO expansion undermined that historically remakable trust and I think that this was unappreciated by many in the West."
*I meant that the old cold-war opponent NATO seemed triumphalist to the ex-soviets. This was tactless and stupid.
You continue to quote me:"From this point a certain
deterioration has crept into the relationship. Economic development will help but not completely cure this problem."
So, the NATO expansion undermined the historically remarkable
trust, you say. So, NATO shouldn't have expanded. So, Russia
should have had its way over countries that it previously had run
over (Pol, Czech, Hung.), occupied and mishandled grossly. (So far, it has got its way over the Baltics and other countries).
*I never said nor implied any of that. That was your interpretation of what I said.
That's how I read that.
*Exactly. That's how you misread it. I may not have filled in the spaces sufficiently.
In sum: The way to keep Russia's trust is to let it have its way in dominating other countries. You may be right. Russia will trust
NATO if NATO always bend to Russian whims.
*Wildly distant from anything I think or have thought. Dominating is OUT.
I do think that while the good will was there it might have been possible to hammer out some new alliances. I think NATO should have been jettisoned. It was too tainted in the minds of those who had been conditioned to fear it. I must say that recent NATO activities in Kosovo have done nothing to change my thoughts about this.
As comedians say: "It's all in the timing."
I think we all missed the beat. My main point in fact. A chance passed us by.
continued
5577. Candide - 1/19/2000 7:12:54 PM
I don't pretend to have the answers but I think an acceptance of the problem is the basic requirement when seeking a solution. I think that you still sound a little punitive towards Russia. Russia is in a mess and also much of it is in the wrong hands. Just like Italy only bigger and messier and for different reasons.
By the way Bettino Craxi is dead.
5578. wonkers2 - 1/19/2000 7:20:45 PM
Wonder who Kohl is protecting. CIA? Big German companies? Anybody seen any informed speculation?
5579. Candide - 1/19/2000 8:39:05 PM
I wonder why we expect our leaders, who rise up through our own mirk, to be anything other than a reflection of our societies?
So many big bodies falling to the ground with a thud.
5580. CalGal - 1/19/2000 9:30:40 PM
Marj,
I think it's the case for most Indian males. [extended eye contact]
I've quite often annoyed Indian men I work with because when I'm listening closely, I often break eye contact and stare off into the distance. Once I proved I was listening, I was cut more slack. But more than one Indian has been really bothered by this.
I worked with two Indian men at my last contract. One was my office mate; we worked with our backs to each other and whenever I would ask a question (without turning around or stopping work) he would stop, turn around, and wait for me to turn around. I had to learn to ask questions when I wasn't planning on doing anything else.
The other was the vp of Engineering, who never liked me and often accused me of not listening to him--despite tangible proof to the contrary. I did my best to change my behavior, but it never worked out. Very frustrating. I wonder if it's worse when women don't make eye contact?
BTW, I'm not sure Ronski's right about the eye contact being the give away. I've always thought it was the assessment that happened during the eye contact.
5581. alistairconnor - 1/20/2000 1:05:34 AM
Message # 5570 Sto, the inhabitants and government of Burkina Faso (I believe it means Land of the Incorruptible or something like that), formerly known as Upper Volta, would have every reason to find the comparison insulting. They have come a long way in the past decade, while Russia has been regressing even faster.
5582. stostosto - 1/20/2000 3:09:14 AM
alistairconnor
It wasn't me who made the comparison, I just cited it, but point taken anyway.
5583. stostosto - 1/20/2000 3:13:26 AM
wonkers2
I think that's the big question. The most frequently spun speculation is that it has something to do with German arms sales to Saudi Arabia. (Wasn't it Saudi Arabia?)
But I don't know how informed that is.
5584. stostosto - 1/20/2000 3:51:45 AM
Candide:
I meant that the old cold-war opponent NATO seemed triumphalist to the ex-soviets. This was tactless and stupid.
Triumphalist - how? Let's see. George Bush was president when the Soviet Union crumbled. He was arguably an incredibly triumphant president, also having recently thrown Saddam out of Kuwait - with Soviet backing in the Security Council, btw. Yet, he was also in the middle of an election campaign and he obviously didn't get any political currency out of any of it. He lost to a Bill Clinton who hadn't much experience outside Arkansas, and who focused on "the economy, stupid" like a laser beam.
So, were West European countries triumphalist? Kohl? Mitterrand? Major?
Please refresh my memory.
NATO expanded - eventually (Poland, Czech Rep. and Hungary weren't admitted until April 1999) - that's true. Russia didn't like that. That's also true.
The sad thing, actually, is how little triumphalism the Russians themselves were capable of. They had thrown off a system which, all told, was among the worst the world has ever seen. Yeltsin could have been the man who talked straight to the Russians infusing them with a vision of a fair, law-based stable and democratic country with a huge potential for economic and social development. A clear break with the horrors, oppression and gloom of the Soviet Union.
5585. stostosto - 1/20/2000 3:52:35 AM
But Yeltsin didn't really have such a vision. He had an instinctive knowledge that Gorbachev's reforms would never succeed in revitalising the communist system (and this was clearly Gorbachev's objective). He boldly dismantled the Soviet Union, gave the 15 republics their freedom (incl. the Baltics), and ventured into transforming the country to a market-based democracy. No bad resume for a politician. Only, he never really understood how markets and democracy work, and he never appreciated their intrinsic value. Rather, they were seen as new means to achieve the same power-maximising goal that had become an integrate part of the way the old Soviet Union worked.
Russians were all too quick to identify with the power and empire of the Soviet Union. That was bound to make "the near abroad" uneasy to the point of applying for NATO membership.
But if only the West hadn't been so triumphant...
5586. stostosto - 1/20/2000 3:53:57 AM
Right. No more speech-making.
I am logging out for today.
5587. jerry roos - 1/20/2000 4:19:37 AM
Majoribanks,
I don't believe the Chinese appreciate extended eye contact. They will usually look away.
In some instances, the antiques or cultural artifacts ARE better off in the West. Once I was looking at some Ching D. parrots in a government antique store, and after I looked and returned them to the clerk, he threw them into a box he had on the floor. The reason I didn't buy was that the parrots were missing either an ear or a beak, or both. Not that the parrots represented fine Chinese art or culture, but you get the idea.
For the most part, the Red Guards confiscated antiques as decadent and stored them in warehouses. Much was broken, but sometimes they only broke out the bottom of a vase where the factory chop is located. Much was also preserved. One of my friends had a friend, an old gentleman, who had a 5 room apartment filled with Ming furniture and porcelain. This was 12 years ago. Obviously a former high official judging from the size of his apartment, and obviously decadent.
5588. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:37:02 AM
Candide (Message # 4426): Churchill was a...grandfather....of the British welfare state, which contrary to rabble wisdom did not come into existence ex nihilo in the second half of the 1940s. As a member of the reform-minded Liberal government of Asquith and Lloyd George (before the First World War), Churchill sponsored a gamut of social legislation in Parliament, including a maximum workday for miners, a minimum wage, a modest precursor to national health insurance, progressive death duties on the very rich, etc. Those proposed but never passed by the house include old-age pensions and unemployment compensation. He even staunchly opposed increases in military expenditures! So energetic and acidic were Churchill’s diatribes against the aristocracy (of which he was a member) that Beatric Webb regarded him as an ally.
I’ve yet to meet an Antipodean with a balanced assessment of Churchill. They’re usually yelping on about Gallipoli. And most of them only know about it through that Mel Gibson film (with tinnitic plinks orchestrated by the Jean-Michel Jarre entity).
5589. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:38:29 AM
Marzipranks (Message # 4407 & Message # 4412): Please refrain henceforth from representing my beliefs in your own words. I’m not trying to debunk anything, certainly not the indisputable reality of Kerala’s high human development indicators; there is nothing perverse in my aim; and my ‘tack’ is not ‘briefly explored in the article’. You have must gotten confused when the author of the Atlantic piece was speculating that Kerala has been able to afford its hostility to industry because prices for its agricultural products have been made artificially higher by Delhi’s tariff policy. This claim about industry and Kerala, whether true or false, is not my contention.
Now, it is pretty much beyond empirical dispute that New Delhi's tariff policy redistributed income from certain groups in India toward others. My quite technical aim is (if possible) to quantify [1] the amount of income redistributed from non-Keralan Indians toward Keralans; and [2] the degree to which this redistribution permitted successive governments in Trivanaputravandramanyanimusaramchekhar (or whatever Trivandrum is called now) to fund the social development of Keralans. If the effects in [1] and [2] are large (and I do not yet know whether they are), then it is POSSIBLE to conclude that [a] the "Kerala miracle" was made possible b
5590. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:39:12 AM
[a] the "Kerala miracle" was made possible by impoverishing other Indians, even if in a manner imperceptible to them; and [b] the "Kerala miracle" is unsustainable. Now, what is so perverse about this aim? After all, it's a legitimate social science question much debated in the literature of development economics and Indian economics in particular, where skepticism about the ‘Kerala miracle’ is, if not universal, then at least substantial. Moreover, I may very well be wrong (i.e., the magnitudes in question may be quite small). But even if I'm right, it wouldn’t even mean that the ‘Kerala model’ has nothing to teach developing countries in general. After all, both economists and the World Bank have been telling developing countries for YEARS now that one of the pillars of East Asian growth & development is investment in human capital, particularly education. My aim, far from being perverse, is to separate the instructive from the downright stupid in the Kerala model (of which there are legion).
By the way, I leave for Delhi on Sunday.
5591. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:40:58 AM
Candide (Message # 4414)
A beautiful and true article [on Kerala from the Atlantic]. I have bookmarked it. I have crossed swords, to no avail, with pseudoErasmus on similar issues.
I do think his heart often points in the right direction but just as I am under-educated, he is over-educated.
5592. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:41:33 AM
But he seems to despise any theory or any individual that doesn't give a logical account of itself....
Many important things are intangible and cannot have a monetary value fixed on them.
5593. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:42:57 AM
Alistair Connor (Message # 5319): Well, this question is moot because the Conseil d’Etat long ago ruled very reasonably that wearing the headscarf in itself is no grounds for preventing Muslim girls from being scolarised. But...
It's pretty disingenuous, in its own way, to compare the wearing of the foulard to the wearing of a crucifix or a star of David, which are a great deal less ostentatious.
... the French national education system has the central role in building social cohesion, and is using whatever texts can be dredged up to fight the good fight.
5594. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:43:39 AM
...it's generally useful to check out what's actually happening on a human level. Hence my change of view.....But in the end, this business of keeping women in a position of slavery, which is the explicit aim of islamic fundamentalists in France, is morally little better than circumcising girl babies.
5595. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:44:54 AM
stostosto (Message # 5335): Hahahahaha! I think you have to have some familiarity with subcon affairs to really appreciate this Rajeev Srinavasan. Back in October or November, after Marzipranks linked one of his pieces, I got caught up in it and then proceeded to read his entire opus on-line. The man is HILARIOUS! I can’t take his crazed Sinophobia as serious political analysis, but I find it charming. Chinese foreign policy is a search for Lebensraum! India should sell nuclear technology to Taiwan! Arm the Uighur separatists in Xinjiang as tit for tat! And like many Tamils he’s got a flair for language and the arresting turn of phrase. One of my favourite articles, entitled (I think) ‘Death of a Missionary’, ends with a recommendation on how Indians should deal with Westerners lecturing them on human rights: they should take up a ‘technique the Chinese have mastered’ of shouting from the rooftop the sins of their lecturers as loudly as possible until they go away. Hahaha! I also burst into fits of giggling when I think of two other pieces, ‘Chaste Urdu’ (where the southern Indian’s disdain for the northerner is used to comical effect) and ‘Can Americans protect the freedom of religion?’ (where he skewers the ‘secularists’ and turns the Ayodha incident on its head). I can say without reservation that despite his mouthing all the tired pathetic obsessions of the educated Hindoooo -- the lashing-out nationalist insecurity typical of Indo-Paks, the usual Indian paranoia about the ISI, a take on Kashmir verging on the Hindu nationalist etc. -- he’s now one of my favourite columnists. I will read him religiously in the future.
5596. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:45:36 AM
He is pure 19th century unadulterated European style nationalism without a shred of sophistication.
5597. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:51:45 AM
PincherMartin & Stostosto, re Eurosclerosis: That Washington Post article PM dredged up appears to me fairly pathetic, just a bunch of businessmen grumbling about various things in Europe and babbling about Europe’s ‘competitiveness’. (Which is a conventional ejaculation of the ineffable among the ineloquent. Since when are businessmen’s macroeconomic perceptions all that keen anyway? ‘Practical men who think themselves immune to intellectual influences are usually the slaves of some defunct economist’. -- John Maynard Keynes) Hardly the coup de grace PM makes it out to be.
His argument seems to be (correct me if I’m wrong): because Western Europe doesn't have as many wired households, internet porno gawkers, and high-tech startups with price/earnings ratios at 7000, its whole economic system is fucked. Hardly the sort of stuff which should inspire reams of soul-searching about whether Europeans are too risk-averse. For it doesn't change the fact that by all indicators except unemployment, Western Europe isn't doing too badly. (Plus unemployment is inordinately high only in five countries.) Is it really so alarming if Europe’s high-tech sector is lagging behind America’s? That is, will it compromise Europe’s living standards in the future? I have my doubts. As I’ve told PM several times, if there is a 'New Economy' in the USA and if it does have significant productivity spillovers outside the high tech sector, the same spillovers would benefit the rest of the world by the simple mechanism of technology transfer.
I remember reading an article in FT or the Economist (?) where telecommunications executives in the USA were acknowledging that Western Europe has the edge and the innovation in telephony, especially wireless telephony, whose use has astonishing rates in places like Finland. It even predicted that Europe's low figures for wired households would be overcome by wireless connections in the future.
5598. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:54:05 AM
Stostosto (Message # 5333)
I know PE has stated time and again that the European unemployment problems are not really structural but rooted in the self-inflicted austerity measures applied in order to meet the Maastricht criteria for the monetary union.
5599. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:55:17 AM
alistairConnor (Message # 5440)
“The average African-American has a higher per capita income than the average Western European.”
Pinscher, what about inner city African-American child mortality rates, reputed to be at Third World levels? Outdated statistic? Urban legend?
5600. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:56:46 AM
Stostosto (Message # 5456)
Loar (Message # 5460)
The salvation, of course, is that the state of affairs, the attitude you describe, need only be temporary until gradually swept away by a better informed and better traveled citizenry whose businesses and economies become more interdependent on outside connections and influences.
5601. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 4:58:09 AM
Marzipranks (Message # 5556)
I think the argument can be made, reasonably, that certain things are better off in places other than where they are part of the cultural patrimony. I cite the Gandhara Graeco-Buddhist sculptures, gorgeous intriguing works, as a very good example. In Pakistan they are ignored at best, left to crumble.
I'd imagine something similar went on during the Cultural Revolution in China.
5602. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 5:05:49 AM
Message # 5521
Message # 5575
Why was it necessary to admit Poland, Czech Republic, and Hungary? What on earth for? You say Russia might have had its way with them if it weren’t for NATO expansion. Why do you suppose that?
You can argue with the way of the world and the direction of the winds and stamping your feet insist the Russians should grow up and be less paranoid. But the facts on the ground are that NATO expansion alienated Russia and that should have been obvious even to the bawling febrile jackanapes who lead NATO countries.
Also, you're much too fixated on Russian behaviour in the 'near abroad' that's right next to you. The Russians had an understandable interest in the treatment of ethnic Russians in the Baltic countries, but their meddling in the Baltic states and Poland et al. has been a trifle, barely perceptible, compared with their churlish and profound meddling in the South Caucasus and Central Asia. (Ask some Georgian why his country is supporting the Chechens. Ask the Azeris why they're allied with the Georgians against the Russians.)
5603. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 5:07:51 AM
I wonder if any of you have heard anything about Ryazan. It’s a small city a couple of hundred km southeast of Moscow, near the more famous Golden Ring city of Vladimir. Some time last October, a small nothing newspaper reported an event which is now finally getting a lot of attention in the media in Moscow and the rest of the country.
The story is this: In late September 1999, an alert resident of a working-class apartment complex noticed a suspicious-looking truck outside his building. On the licence plate was attached a piece of paper with handwritten numbers indicating a Ryazan registration; underneath the paper were the real numbers -- it was a Moscow plate. Later, another witness caught a glimpse of the drivers as they were leaving the area -- they looked like Russians (i.e., in Russian parlance, they didn’t have black hair). There was paranoia in Russia at this time because two bombs later attributed to Chechen terrorists had already gone off in Moscow and elsewhere and killed 300+ people. So both men notified the Ryazan police, who promptly discovered several sacks of explosive powder and a timing device in the cellar. By all indications they were set to detonate. The building was evacuated.
A fully day later, and only a fully day later, the FSB (the successor organisation to the KGB and Putin’s former job) announced that it had been a kind of civil defence exercise.
5604. pseudoerasmus - 1/20/2000 5:08:38 AM
At first, only Ryazan residents were skeptical, but now most Russians have heard about this incident and are becoming increasingly incredulous. It hasn’t helped quell suspicions of government complicity in the bombings, that so many of the puzzles don’t fit. If it was an exercise, why only Ryazan? Why were the bombing sites in Moscow et al. were quickly bulldozed? Why did no one claim responsibility for them before or since the Russian invasion of Chechnya. Why didn’t Chechen terrorists, if they are real, choose more public targets?
When you combine all this with the fact that the bombings were terribly convenient for the government, the Ryazan story transcends a mere conspiracy theory and enters the realm of tantalising possibility.
5605. Candide - 1/20/2000 6:39:35 AM
pseudoerasmus
I haven't got time to read your posts tonight. It's late but I will in the morning.
Two points: I have always loathed the Gallipoli stuff and for that reason would not watch the film. I have recoiled as actresses told me how they visited Gallipoli and wept.
The second point is that Beatrice Webb also worshipped Stalin.
I don't deny Churchill all virtue. I am unable to forget the early newsreel of him shriking with laughter as suffragettes were dragged away by the police.
I will return.
5606. Candide - 1/20/2000 6:48:25 AM
pseudoerasmus I had another paste but this superseded it.
Many important things are intangible and cannot have a monetary
value fixed on them.
Comfortable rhythms. Familiar relationships. Traditional food. Relationship with the environment.
Not everyone values these things. I broke the mould myself, but many people value these things above everything else and I'm not sure that anyone has a right to deprive people of basic emotional needs.
Incidentally I heard a historian in radio program today suggest that it was Britain's19th century Chinese opium/tea trade that launched modern globalism.
I'm not against globalism as such. Just homogenisation of the world.
5607. ScottLoar - 1/20/2000 6:50:42 AM
Sto3, prompted by some unreasonable inferences from an earlier conversation I must make clear, I am not alleging that some post-communist mindset fosters a kind of anti-commercial culture. That's simple stupid and the inference of an over-active mind seeking to find fault.
5608. Candide - 1/20/2000 6:53:21 AM
pseudoerasmus
You're doing well.
But he seems to despise any theory or any individual that doesn't
give a logical account of itself....
Instinct. Dancing without consciousness. Some people can do it and others can't.
I liked the bit about the cranium exceeding its duty.
5609. Candide - 1/20/2000 6:56:30 AM
pseudoerasmus
When the
proponents of ‘globalisation’ point out, for example, that the erosion
of the manufacturing in developed countries is not due primarily to
globalisation, then those afflicted with self-indulgent moral vanity
demonise us as callously indifferent to people’s social & economic
problems, even though we don’t deny serious problems exist and all
we’re doing is disputing your superstitious & scapegoating diagnosis.If one cares about suffering in the world, then it is morally
incumbent to discover its true causes.
And impose your prescribed cure? OK. No argument with finding the problem. Just some concern as to whether the cure may not sometimes be worse than the complaint.
5610. ScottLoar - 1/20/2000 6:58:23 AM
If the fall of Communism fostered an anti-commercial culture (I see evidence aplenty to the contrary) then how can I advance businessmen as "agents of influence"? There seems a willingness to misinterpret, misread, and find fault here that passes beyond simple misunderstanding but, rather, seeks excuse to argue.
5611. ScottLoar - 1/20/2000 7:00:25 AM
Please! Candide! Stop prefacing your every post with immediately previous comments. Stop it!
5612. ScottLoar - 1/20/2000 7:01:49 AM
Don't quote! Just highlight the damned post you're referring to, or just simply use re and state the post number. Your habit is annoying as hell.
5613. Candide - 1/20/2000 7:15:26 AM
ScottLoar
I'm perforce whizzing through Pseudoerasmus's copy and trying to retain relationships between complex references and my answers.
I don't do it to annoy you.
Am I the dog at the end of the line?
5614. stostosto - 1/20/2000 9:27:28 AM
Who the fuck is this Pseudoerasmus character?
5615. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 9:39:16 AM
Candide --
Study the HTML chart. There are a few ways you can learn there to improve the aesthetic appearance of your posts.
5616. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2000 9:42:22 AM
The appearance of Candide's posts don't bother me. Her content sometimes does, but that's another story (g). Back to topic, anyone?
5617. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2000 9:43:11 AM
don't = doesn't (Ugh.)
5618. Dusty - 1/20/2000 9:47:16 AM
Candide
Sorry, but Scott has appointed himself master of post composition. Follow orders or suffer the consequences.
5619. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 10:11:52 AM
PE --
Welcome back.
PincherMartin & Stostosto, re Eurosclerosis: That Washington Post article PM dredged up appears to me fairly pathetic, just a bunch of businessmen grumbling about various things in Europe and babbling about Europe’s ‘competitiveness’. (Which is a conventional ejaculation of the ineffable among the ineloquent. Since when are businessmen’s macroeconomic perceptions all that keen anyway? ‘Practical men who think themselves immune to intellectual influences are usually the slaves of some defunct economist’. -- John Maynard Keynes) Hardly the coup de grace PM makes it out to be.
His argument seems to be (correct me if I’m wrong): because Western Europe doesn't have as many wired households, internet porno gawkers, and high-tech startups with price/earnings ratios at 7000, its whole economic system is fucked.
5620. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 10:13:13 AM
Hardly the sort of stuff which should inspire reams of soul-searching about whether Europeans are too risk-averse. For it doesn't change the fact that by all indicators except unemployment, Western Europe isn't doing too badly. (Plus unemployment is inordinately high only in five countries.) Is it really so alarming if Europe’s high-tech sector is lagging behind America’s? That is, will it compromise Europe’s living standards in the future? I have my doubts. As I’ve told PM several times, if there is a 'New Economy' in the USA and if it does have significant productivity spillovers outside the high tech sector, the same spillovers would benefit the rest of the world by the simple mechanism of technology transfer.
5621. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 10:13:25 AM
I remember reading an article in FT or the Economist (?) where telecommunications executives in the USA were acknowledging that Western Europe has the edge and the innovation in telephony, especially wireless telephony, whose use has astonishing rates in places like Finland. It even predicted that Europe's low figures for wired households would be overcome by wireless connections in the future.
5622. hashke - 1/20/2000 11:59:57 AM
5611. ScottLoar - 1/20/00 12:00:25 PM
>Please! Candide! Stop prefacing your every post with immediately previous comments. Stop it!
Heheeh. Sheeesh. This is like poking into the cave of a hibernating old bear.
Loar's lair.
5623. marjoribanks - 1/20/2000 12:42:57 PM
You know, I kind of like Pseuder in these compressed interventions better than the usual all-out 24-hr warfare we enjoy most of the time.
Anyway, I'm pleased he has cottoned on to Rajeev Srinivasan who I've been linking to this forum for at least two years. For the benefit of all, I'll link this archived article on Nehru which is one of my favorites. The second part (you have to click to it) is particularly outstanding. I appreciated Sto's and Pincher's comments on this fellow, particularly Sto's admission that "perhaps" India needs to go through a phase where people like Srinivasan are necessary. I happen to agree.
5624. Candide - 1/20/2000 3:07:48 PM
PincherMartin
I DO intend to give some time to studying HTML. I hate the appearance of my own posts. The trouble is that all my Mote time seems taken up with Moting. (Yes I know. Rather too freely.)
Your own posts are models of elegance.
5625. Candide - 1/20/2000 3:09:16 PM
IndianaJones and Dusty
Thanks.
I am always humbled when ScottLoar notices me, even in a negative sense.
5626. Candide - 1/20/2000 3:34:33 PM
The effect of sweeping economic change is frequently one of enforced displacement of people. This has always happened to some extent but there is a vast difference between the intelligent investigations of middleclass air travellers and back-packers, and the desperate, frightened emigrants who arrive in a country that would have them, rather than the country of their choice.
A subsistence way of life, unexamined by TV crews, is often preferable to the isolation and confusion experienced in alien surroundings.
A psychiatrist acquaintance of mine makes a fat living treating many of these people. He complains about the tedium of his work and flies to Europe for skiing holidays.
5627. Candide - 1/20/2000 3:46:06 PM
IrvingSnodgrass
The news from your part of the world is not good. I hope that you at least are feeling secure.
It seems that we can always rely on corrupt individuals to behave in an unscrupulous manner. I refer of course to those who seem to be deliberately destabilising the situation.
5628. stostosto - 1/20/2000 4:47:11 PM
Pseudoerasmus, whoever you are:
"the Stostosto/The Economist/US-right-wing view is not the only one in town. "
Interesting conflation. It's new to me. I am not used to be called US-right-wing. (Egads, PM called me a Europhile!).
I actually said much the same thing that you do wrt European ways of handling labour market problems. I explicitly stated that the Netherlands, and the Scandies have succeeded fairly well in combatting unemployment by a very active labour market policy without abandoning the welfare state.
You call it "tinkering", as opposed to a whole-sale American-inspired abandonment of the welfare system. I can tell you that the Germans are very eager to learn about how the Danes have "tinkered" with their labour market in order that we now enjoy an unemployment rate below the British rate, and at the same time have preserved our rather lavish welfare state intact. (The fact that the government isn't rewarded in the polls for this is another matter). And I explicitly stated that this was in contrast with the British approach.
Such "tinkering" is fiendishly difficult to implement politically, however. That is why I say that French, German, Spanish and Italian labour markets are marked by severe structural problems.
Otherwise I agree with you, especially since you say that European unemployment is due to a mix of Maastricht austerity and structural components. In fact that's very hard to disagree with.
"the very fact that Sweden and the Netherlands, after some mild fiddling with their labour markets and a bit of sectoral deregulation here and there, have reduced their unemployment to British levels make nonsense out of such criticisms"
You do that on purpose! You leave outh the Danes! We are better than the Dutch! And we are better than the Swedes! Dammit, dammit, dammit! You are doing it on purpose! BOOOHOOOOHOOOOHOOOO!!!!!
5629. Candide - 1/20/2000 4:52:56 PM
A quick rush to the computer while engaged in preparing breakfast.
The conversation (sword-crossing) forgotten by PE and by me too until this moment, was concerning the "benefits" of unsolicited modernisation and tourism on traditional societies.
I never denied that material comforts would not please some of the people within the societies, but the assumption that they represented an increase in happiness for the recipients was, as I recall, my point of doubt.
5630. stostosto - 1/20/2000 5:01:31 PM
In quite a different vein, Pseuder, I would like to tell you that I dined with an Iranian tonight and got huge mileage out of your Iranian travelogue.
He was an Adzerbaijani-Iranian from Tebriz. Nice fellow. He fled the draft for the Irani-Iraqi war in 1985. Now he is a marketing executive in a Danish pharmaceutical company.
(Makes one think of one's own measly little geographically confined life story...)
He was very critical of the Danish welfare system, by the way. People shouldn't get paid for not working. People should not be punished by the tax system for working harder and earning more. And so on, and so forth.
And he was generally confirming many of the impressions you gave from your trip there. Among other things, he told me he was shocked at the way Iranian women wore nail polish and make-up at his last visit there. And "young people even sleep over at each other's houses..!"
Interesting evening.
5631. stostosto - 1/20/2000 5:05:22 PM
Marj:
"I appreciated Sto's and Pincher's comments on this fellow, particularly Sto's admission that "perhaps" India needs to go through a phase where people like Srinivasan are necessary. I happen to agree. "
I agree too about your characterisation of him as a demagogue.
5632. Candide - 1/20/2000 6:10:18 PM
stostosto
we now enjoy an unemployment rate below the British rate, and at the same time have preserved our rather lavish welfare state intact.
Sometimes the Danes are truly great.
There are descendants in New Zealand (one is my friend) from a naughty Danish prime minister I think he was - and a bishop. Monrad. Does the name ring bells?
5633. stostosto - 1/20/2000 6:13:40 PM
ScottLoar #5607 (notice how I conform to the correct Loarthorised form of reference):
I didn't think you were. I think you are simply absolutely perfect in any way. And I just adore your stylish full-bottomed wig.
5634. stostosto - 1/20/2000 6:15:57 PM
Candide:
Yes, vaguely, vaguely. I'll look him up when I get the time.
5635. Candide - 1/20/2000 6:29:16 PM
I think of ScottLoar as being something in the Tom Wolfe mould but more discriminating.
5636. ProfEmeritus - 1/20/2000 6:58:46 PM
Pak Hashke and Pak Marj
It's been a Blue Moon since we had any pun fun. Sun-of-a-gun. I didn't planet this way. I sphere we may be tossed into orbit. But the hosts here can be heavenly.
5637. stostosto - 1/20/2000 7:03:21 PM
I much Profer Emeritus to a lame pun.
5638. hashke - 1/20/2000 7:20:29 PM
Pak Gurubesar!
We've just been eclipsed by sto's whatever.
5639. ProfEmeritus - 1/20/2000 7:44:04 PM
Pak Hashke
He's just full of the old sputnik.
5640. hashke - 1/20/2000 7:59:30 PM
Pak Gurubesar:
He may think that puns are what he is sitting on.
5641. hashke - 1/20/2000 8:11:28 PM
Candide:
I am always humbled when ScottLoar notices me, even in a negative sense.
For chrissakes, Candide, you keep on being obeisant to SL and he'll continue to Loar the boom on ya.
5642. profemeritus - 1/20/2000 8:12:57 PM
Pak Hashke
Where is Pak Canis Marjoris? His comet might help.
5643. Seguine - 1/20/2000 8:38:53 PM
[with apology for inserting an off-topicality]
Banks, I have made a plea to you in Home and Garden concerning kidney beans.
5644. hashke - 1/20/2000 9:20:52 PM
Pak Gurubesar:
His whereabouts is nebulous. He's on some kinda weird lunar sickle.
5645. ilyavinarsky - 1/20/2000 9:27:51 PM
I asked the Microserfies from the xUSSR alias (164 people in September, probably more now) whether Pseudoerasmus's summary of the Ryazan pseudobombing was accurate. Everybody who replied said, Yes.
5646. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/20/2000 9:56:28 PM
Candide:
The news from your part of the world is not good. I hope that you at least are feeling secure.
Well, we're getting used to bad news. In a way, it's good news to know that the instigators of anti-Christian violence in South Jakarta, Maluku, and Lombok are the same people, and that they are working with the military. It's the same kind of game the old government engaged in, and this time the truth is coming out, publicly.
It seems that we can always rely on corrupt individuals to behave in an unscrupulous manner. I refer of course to those who seem to be deliberately destabilising the situation.
Well, I've been pointing the finger at the military and supporters of the previous regime all along, and it's nice to see recent reports in the Indonesian and foreign media confirming what my sources have been telling me privately.
Here are a few news excerpts from recent days:
----
Indon Coup Would Cause Riots
Straits Times (Singapore) January 19 2000
Dr Harold Crouch, an expert on the Indonesian military and senior fellow at the School of Asian and Pacific Studies of the Australian National
University, says there is little chance of a coup in Indonesia. On Monday, he told the BBC why the military would not risk it.
[continued]
5647. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/20/2000 9:57:58 PM
Cak Nur hails US warning over coup
Indonesian Observer (January 19, 2000)
JAKARTA (IO) – Prominent national scholar Dr. Nurcholish Madjid agrees with the US warning over any possibility of a coup attempt in Indonesia. In Jakarta yesterday he said he is very sure that with it’s military spying devices the US knew that a coup in Indonesia could possibly have happened "They have superb spying technology which allows them to detect any coup possibility. So if they warn of a coup by any certain party, they must be very sure that could potentially happen in Indonesia," Madjid, popularly known as Cak Nur, told a press conference after delivering his speech for the forgiving ceremony, following the Idul Fitri festivities in the Indonesia Institute of Sciences (LIPI) here yesterday.
According to the Chicago University graduate scholar, the US must have a reason and evidence before issuing such a warning to Indonesia about a coup possibility. He said it didn’t get the coup issue information from Indonesia, but from it’s sophisticated spying devices.
----
INDONESIA: Wiranto faces dismissal threat
Financial Times (London) Thursday January 20 2000
Abdurrahman Wahid, Indonesian president, on Wednesday threatened to sack General Wiranto, his powerful co-ordinating minister for political and security affairs, if the former head of the armed forces was found to be guilty of human rights abuses in East Timor.
The warning comes as two top Indonesian officials, Alwi Shihab, foreign minister and Marzuki Darusman, attorney-general, are set to visit the United Nations in New York this week in an attempt to persuade the Security Council not to set up an international war crimes tribunal to try Indonesian military officials for the carnage in East Timor last year after the territory voted to separate from Indonesia.
[continued]
5648. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/20/2000 10:00:50 PM
Indonesia pledges 'harsh actions' against rioters
The Guardian (London) Thursday January 20, 2000
The Indonesian president, Abdurrahman Wahid, yesterday announced a massive crackdown to prevent widespread violence and social unrest from causing the country to break apart. "We are patient to a certain point but when it's transgressed we will take harsh actions. I think now the time comes for that," he said. In an interview, he claimed that a small group of religious fanatics and military officers were responsible for the violence that has left hundreds dead in the last few weeks, mainly in the eastern Molucca islands. "I know exactly that these people are only in the minority," he said. "We will hunt them. I told the police chief as well as General Wiranto [the chief security minister] to go after them whatever happens, because we have to protect the people." Mr Wahid said most of the orchestrators were people who had held power during previous regimes.
----
A former Indonesian government minister who sends me daily news reports added this comment to his mailing yesterday:
"One notices from successive e-mailed news that disguised language is being replaced by more openly "accusing" military involvement, or complicity, in the outbreak of and prolonged violence in Maluku, etc. Now names are being mentioned. This is an significant development. Most probably President Gus Dur also thinks along the same lines. "
----
Suharto, Wiranto linked to Maluku violence
AFP (January 18, 2000)
JAKARTA - A team promoting reconciliation in strife-torn Maluku has identified four men suspected of stirring up sectarian violence and linked former President Suharto and ex-defence chief General Wiranto to the clashes, a report said on Tuesday.
Year-long Muslim-Christian violence in the Malukus has left more than 1,700 people dead and hundreds of thousands of refugees.
5649. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 10:03:21 PM
Sto, Pseudo --
I [Sto] actually said much the same thing that you do wrt European ways of handling labour market problems. I explicitly stated that the Netherlands, and the Scandies have succeeded fairly well in combatting unemployment by a very active labour market policy without abandoning the welfare state.
5650. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 10:10:45 PM
I have already posted this in The Slow Thread, but here is an article about the international implications of the US grabbing the internet infrastructure for business to business commerce. Apparently Pseudo thinks the internet is only good for porno and buying books, but there is a range of areas where US companies are taking a calculated bet it will improve the productivity of their business.
The Landgrab.com
5651. PincherMartin - 1/20/2000 10:17:53 PM
Irv --
Prominent national scholar Dr. Nurcholish Madjid agrees with the US warning over any possibility of a coup attempt in Indonesia. In Jakarta yesterday he said he is very sure that with it’s military spying devices the US knew that a coup in Indonesia could possibly have happened "They have superb spying technology which allows them to detect any coup possibility. So if they warn of a coup by any certain party, they must be very sure that could potentially happen in Indonesia,"
5652. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/20/2000 10:27:25 PM
Pincher:
I agree. But if it helps for the bad guys to think the Amercans are listening, I've got no problem with it.
5653. Candide - 1/20/2000 10:48:29 PM
hashke
It had to be read aloud in the correct tone of voice.
5654. Candide - 1/20/2000 10:55:01 PM
hashke
How's this then?
To a Re-Motie
There once was a man called ScottLoar
who complained:"It's a terrible bore
when my intellections
meet crude interjections
from persons I've not met before".
5655. Candide - 1/20/2000 10:57:30 PM
Sorry for the frivolity. I was replying to a post from Hashke concerning my spineless manner of meeting attack from certain parties.
I had not realised that all the more serious stuff was in between.
5656. Candide - 1/20/2000 11:08:40 PM
hashke #5641 was the post that invited a riposte.
5657. Candide - 1/21/2000 12:58:37 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
I'm sorry that my frivolous behaviour interrupted such an important discussion.
I read in today's Sydney Morning Herald that "Mr Wahid is scheduled to leave on January 28 for a two-week tour of 10 European countries and South Korea."
What is the public and media response to his leaving at a time of such difficulty? Is it regarded as important for cementing relationships and firming up trade prospects or is it seen as being absent from the post at a time of crisis?
5658. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/21/2000 2:08:00 AM
Candide:
Gus Dur has come under some criticism for all the travelling he's done and plans to do. He has visited many countries in Asia, the Middle East and North America already, and plans to add Europe and Korea (the one Asian nation he missed the first time around). If diplomatic relations were better, he would have visited Australia by now, as well (a nation he likes a lot, personally).
He feels it is important to build relations with other nations and gain international support for what he's doing. He also feels that some of the problems here will cool down if a constant spotlight isn't placed upon them. In this regard, I think he's right... the troubles are largely instigated with a view of getting as much attention as possible. Gus Dur simply won't play that game.
I remain convinced that Gus Dur knows exactly what he's doing, even if the Indonesian media isn't quite so convinced.
5659. Candide - 1/21/2000 2:38:58 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
There is a ghost of resemblance to the days of Gough Whitlam, who is still the most loved ex-politician in Australia.
5660. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 2:54:25 AM
It's finally here! The Mote icon! Particularly useful for those pop-down 'favorite'/'bookmark' menus! And it's yours FREE in this limited time beta offer! All you have to do is sign my guestbook and I'll mail it to you for, like, free!!! ($999.98 shipping charge not included) 
Go there now
5661. PincherMartin - 1/21/2000 3:01:17 AM
Handsome crew you have there, RustlerPike.
5662. Candide - 1/21/2000 6:53:39 AM
Rustler Pike
Your family is beautiful.
5663. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 11:28:59 AM
Candide, Pincher - thanks!
Now... I'm changing the subject drastically. Here goes.
5664. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 12:05:12 PM
There's an article in today's Ma'ariv about a massacre of Arab villagers in al-Tantura, one of the Palestinian Arab villages destroyed in 1948 (this link is to a Palestinian site). It quotes a new study which claims 200 Palestinians were buried in mass graves, after many of them had been rounded up and shot dead by Israeli soldiers who had taken the village in May of 1948.
>>>
5665. hashke - 1/21/2000 1:22:13 PM
5654. Candide - 1/21/00 3:55:01 AM
hashke
How's this then?
Still pliant. You don't wanna treat these cyberthugs with too much respect, you know. ;)
Come Lei ho detto, Lei fa fronte a qualcheduno qui. A la prossima offesa dategli una solenne cazzottatura, distruggetelo in germe!
Cosa ne dice?
5666. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 1:25:55 PM
>>>
The study - and the article - quotes both Arab villagers who lived in Tantura and Israeli soldiers who took part in what happened. There are different versions of what happened, how it happened, and how many people were killed. The village had been what was known as 'kfar 'oyen' - a hostile village, which had taken part in hostilities. The study, by Theodore 'Teddy' Katz, a kibbutznik who researched the subject for his master's thesis, says:
on the night between the 22nd and 23rd of May 1948 and on the following morning, the 33rd regiment of the Alexandroni Brigade attacked the village of Tantura. The village was taken after several hours in which the sides exchanged fire - intensively, in certain areas - but by the morning hours, the entire village was in the IDF's hands. According to the eyewitness accounts of more than 20 refugees from Tantura, and several of the regiment's soldiers, the soldiers carried out a deadly manhunt for several hours' time, searching for grown men in order to kill them. At first they were shot wherever they were found - in the homes, the yards, even the streets - and then they were concentrated and shot in the village cemetery
The article notes that 14 IDF soldiers from the Alexandroni Brigade were killed in the operation at Tantura. It says the mass graves are under what is now the parking lot of the popular beach at Tantura - now called Hof Dor.
According to the Arab survivors, the killing was stopped when a group of armed men from the neighboring Jewish settlement of Zikhron Ya'akov arrived on the scene and demanded that it stop.
>>>
5667. hashke - 1/21/2000 1:26:46 PM
I've already congratulated Pike on his family based on earlier pics, and I'll do it here again! Fine looking family, Rustler!
And by now you are fluent in Kikuyu, eh?
5668. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 1:48:14 PM
>>>
Truth be told, I had been wondering what had happened in Tantura since I read the following passage in Madrich Yisrael, an IDF-sponsored guide to sites and trails of interest and beauty in Israel:
At the outset of the War of Independence the inhabitants of Tantura did not take part in activities against the Jewish population, but after the taking of Haifa it became a chief supply base for the Arab villages on the Carmel coast - known as the 'small triangle' - which threatened to cut off transportation between Haifa and Tel Aviv. Dozens of ships brought weapons and supplies from the shores of Lebanon to Tantura's port, and evacuated Arab refugees. The attempts to neutralize the threat posed by Tantura through negotiations failed, and it was then that IDF forces attacked it from three directions, with support from the sea, and took it in May of 1948. A memorial to the soldiers who fell in this operation was erected near the marine biology research station at Dor.
Within the abandoned village's perimeter, kibbutz Nachsholim (1948) and moshav Dor (1949) were built. The original plan called for the inhabitants to make their living from fishing, but they now base their economy on the vacation and tourism industry. Hof Dor (popularly known as 'Tantura Beach') is one of the most beautiful and well equipped beaches in Israel.
(Madrich Yisrael, vol. 8, p. 142)
That much is true. I've been there a couple of times, and it was very nice. I may have a problem going there again anytime soon though.
5669. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 1:49:58 PM
Hashke:
No I'm not, but I will be one day. It's such a beautiful language, like a gurgling stream.
5670. LadyChaos - 1/21/2000 2:18:44 PM
Does anybody have a link to the Cuban Constitution in English?
5671. CalGal - 1/21/2000 2:21:23 PM
Well, I didn't until I did a search on Cuba constitution. Here's one for starters, but there were others that might be more appropriate.
5672. Uzmakk - 1/21/2000 2:27:39 PM
Pike:
Have you seen my website.
5673. LadyChaos - 1/21/2000 2:28:15 PM
CalGal,
That links to the same Spanish-language version that I keep coming up with. Thanks for the effort, though.
In case anyone is interested, I've gotten sucked into doing research on the Elian Gonzalez mess on behalf of the Cuban American Foundation. If any of you lawyers out there have developed a pithy argument (that is well grounded in U.S. and International law) for keeping Elian here (something which I personally don't favor, but what the hell, it's a paycheck, right?), drop me a note on this thread.
Viva Miami.
5674. ScottLoar - 1/21/2000 2:44:42 PM
Right of salvage? I mean, the boy was flotsam when found, yes?
5675. Candide - 1/21/2000 3:43:56 PM
RustlerPike
I've read some of the writing of Robert Fisk which speaks of incidents like the one that you report. I've also met a sad Palestinian woman in Sydney who said the little hill village where her family lived for centuries is now totally gone and all the unknowing stranger sees is a terrace for grapes where the houses used to be.
It seems that in such a struggle for survival there is no justice for either side.
5676. Candide - 1/21/2000 3:51:02 PM
hashke
Non sono un assassino. Mi basta a darlo un piccolo ceffone. Siccome la vittima è abbastanza simpatico e geniale a fondo.
Sono appena destata. Niente spiritos prima di caffè.
To maintain the thread topic, international relations between triumphalist elements of dominant powers and dependent client states are always delicate at best.
5677. Candide - 1/21/2000 3:54:41 PM
The situation with the German Christian Democrats eerily resembles earlier Christian Democrat and Vatican dramas in Italy. There is even a mysterious hanging man.
5678. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 4:24:34 PM
Uzmakk: a wondrous site, so full of Uzmakkian humility! ;-)
5679. RustlerPike - 1/21/2000 4:26:29 PM
Candide: well put.
5680. Uzmakk - 1/21/2000 4:30:10 PM
Pelle Nilsson did it for me, but I must admit, he captured the Uzmakkian humility perfectly.
5681. cmboyce - 1/21/2000 4:42:20 PM
Uzmakk,
That's it? "Tremble"? No pictures of little barbarians (compliment intended) around the yurt? Last year's Midwinter Bonfire or whatever? Not even the odd vassal? BTW, do you exercise droit de seigneur on the steppe? How bout a snapshot of a vassalette?
5682. Uzmakk - 1/21/2000 5:05:53 PM
All of that is coming, Boyce.
5683. Candide - 1/21/2000 5:13:03 PM
Uzmakk
I saw, and I trembled.
Now I must go and feed my other familiar.
5684. PelleNilsson - 1/21/2000 5:20:12 PM
University started today. The course is more demanding than I expected. A hell of a lot to read, quite a lot to write. On top, I'm committed to work 60-70% of normal work hours. Mote-time will suffer. I'll read all and post when I can.
5685. stostosto - 1/21/2000 6:22:20 PM
Pelle
I am sorry, I am probably being thick and slow, but it had escaped my attention that you have started attending a university course. What's the subject?
(Please, if anyone can direct me to Pelle's post on this, that would be fine - and save some of Pelle's precious Moting time).
I am not happy about your cutting down on your time here (that's mildly put), but I imagine you'll enjoy the studying. So good luck to you. Lycka till.
5686. Candide - 1/21/2000 6:34:52 PM
PelleNilsson is always respected and appreciated, as are you stostosto.
5687. PelleNilsson - 1/21/2000 6:37:29 PM
sto
The course is The Philosophy of Science. I didn't express myself very well. What I really meant to say is that I will have little time to compose really reasoned posts; the kind that needs
checking of reference books and the like.
5688. Candide - 1/21/2000 6:56:31 PM
PelleNilsson
All your posts are reasoned. I asked you whether you were aware of an academic chap who is a an exponent of your chosen subject. We used to agitate together. I've lost track of him. he is no longer at Wollongong University. Jim Falk (Professor). I throw the name in the ring in case you have any idea about where he has gone. A lovely chap.He has published quite a bit and is known a little internationally I think.
5689. Candide - 1/21/2000 7:22:44 PM
http://www.ines2000.org/
This may interest some Moties with scientific or technical qualifications.
5690. ScottLoar - 1/21/2000 8:09:54 PM
The Philosophy of Science? But that's marvellous. I, too, must attend to study more than the random readings I've grown accustomed to but, damn, I do enjoy this place for the expression it allows me. Serious, silly, sarcastic, sympathetic, studious or sincere we're allowed it all, and addressed to a goodly host of usually well-informed, generally intelligent, somewhat interesting and greatly varied persons of like curiousity.
5691. Candide - 1/21/2000 8:25:03 PM
ScottLoar
And I include you in that list if you will pardon the impertinence.
5692. stostosto - 1/21/2000 8:39:27 PM
Loar - was that really you?
5693. MsIvoryTower - 1/21/2000 8:58:48 PM
Pelle
Who are you reading? Kuhn? Feyerbend? Popper? Ah, that brings me back to my doctoral days....
5694. Candide - 1/21/2000 9:19:43 PM
MsIvory Tower
Pelle sleeps.
5695. MsIvoryTower - 1/21/2000 9:22:20 PM
Candide
Does he? One thing that I'm terrible at is the Motie Clock. Who's sleeping when, and where.
I think I read somewhere that you're in New Zealand? Or is it Australia?
5696. Candide - 1/21/2000 9:30:07 PM
MsIvory Tower
Heart in both. Physically I'm in Australia. Where are you?
The Swedes are all tucked up in their little cots I believe at this hour. I'm hopeless at the clock too. That's one great thing about the new weather thread. It identifies people's locations. Usually when I wake up there's a mass of fascinating reading on International and Language etc. and they all throw me some sleep-sodden words and retire. In this time while I struggle to communicate I have all the usual domestic tasks of the day to perform. Very stressful.
5697. robertjayb - 1/21/2000 9:41:38 PM
5698. MsIvoryTower - 1/21/2000 9:50:42 PM
Candide
I'm in that strange land called Texas. I'm told that it's part of the United States, but I have trouble believing it sometimes....
One of the great things about this format is that you can post, go to bed, and face some lovely (or not so lovely) commentary on your previous words of wisdom, wit or whatever. So, I will await Pelle's comments regarding his reading list. It will give me something to anticipate....
5699. sakonige - 1/21/2000 10:10:38 PM
MsIT,
Regarding your post in the Home and Garden thread about Table Talk, the very high visibility of the site draws a wide range of international visitors with non-American points of view who bounce off the Americans' overconfident provencial opinions in interesting ways, so I have been spending a lot of time there. Lately, Latin American issues have drawn some commentary that have sent me surfing for more information for hours. Two recent contributors are from Texas.
5700. robertjayb - 1/21/2000 10:21:38 PM
.
sakonige,
So what's the thread? I'd like to go there.
Thank you, very mush.
5701. Candide - 1/21/2000 10:27:27 PM
RobertJayb
I heard about it on the radio news this morning. How can we interpret it? Does "economic crisis" mean anything in Ecuador?
5702. sakonige - 1/21/2000 10:39:43 PM
robertjayb -
The international issues folder in table talk has a few threads focused on Latin America including Chiapas, Cuba and Chile. There aren't many contributors, but enough to contrast challenging ideas.
5703. sakonige - 1/21/2000 10:43:17 PM
Candide,
Maybe it's the beginning of a pan-American Indian uprising that will sweep through the new world.
5704. Candide - 1/21/2000 10:56:07 PM
Sakonige
If only they could achieve justice without an uprising.
5705. Candide - 1/21/2000 10:59:42 PM
MsIvoryTower.
I have a dear friend from Corsicana and in his cups he can do a cruel imitation of his Daddy ordering him to: "git to ViettNam and deefend his country, boaeey!"
5706. Candide - 1/21/2000 11:01:35 PM
Fer 'his' read 'yoh'.
5707. robertjayb - 1/21/2000 11:08:05 PM
Key Facts About Ecuador
By The Associated Press
Key facts about Ecuador, where the armed forces demanded President Jamil Mahuad's resignation Friday after Indian protesters and some military officers stormed the Congress building and declared a new government
---
LAND: Located at the equator and wedged between Colombia and Peru on the northwest shoulder of South America. Roughly the size of Colorado.
PEOPLE: Most of the 12 million inhabitants are of mixed native Indian and Spanish heritage. The Confederation of Indigenous Nationalities of Ecuador has gained considerable political power over the past decade. In 1990, in what the Indians called an ``indigenous uprising,'' hundreds of thousands of Indians from remote hamlets in the Andean highlands and the Amazon jungle barricaded highways for days to demand government services.
OFFICIAL LANGUAGE: Spanish, although Quichua is the first language of most of the nation's 4 million Indians.
RELIGION: Mainly Roman Catholic.
HISTORY: Mahuad assumed office in August 1998, taking over from Fabian Alarcon. He is Ecuador's sixth president since 1996 and the ninth since democratic elections were re-established. The last military coup in Ecuador occurred in 1972, and military rule followed until 1979.
POLITICS: Mahuad's government has been mired in savage political infighting since he took office. Demonstrations by students, transportation workers and rural Indian groups to protest Mahuad's economic policies often have turned violent.
A few paragraphs from a cheap encyclopedia...
5708. robertjayb - 1/21/2000 11:14:03 PM
.
I lost control of the above post and it is entirely posible that I will not recover. My lame point was to scoff at the inability of The Associated Press to come up with anything other than dated boilerplate to deal with a breaking story.
5709. robertjayb - 1/21/2000 11:39:18 PM
.
Ecuador Rebellion DenouncedWASHINGTON (AP) -- Meeting in emerging session, the 34-nation Organization of American States Friday night unanimously condemned a military-backed rebellion against Ecuador's President Jamil Mahuad.
Ecuador Rebellion Denounced
By HARRY DUNPHY Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Meeting in emerging session, the 34-nation Organization of American States Friday night unanimously condemned a military-backed rebellion against Ecuador's President Jamil Mahuad.
.
5710. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:15:45 AM
robertjayb -
With no traitorous intentions toward the Mote, I wish you or someone other than me would create an Equador thread in Table Talk that might draw comments from people with specific knowledge of the region.
5711. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:19:36 AM
Equador = Ecuadaor
5712. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:20:40 AM
Ecuadaor = Ecuador
5713. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:21:48 AM
This looks like the consultants' crap I've been debugging all day.
5714. robertjayb - 1/22/2000 12:26:34 AM
.
I'll have a go. How about: "Ecuador: What's going on and do we give a rat's ass? Should we?"
5715. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:28:38 AM
No, be concise and polite.
5716. robertjayb - 1/22/2000 12:31:27 AM
.
Okay.
I await your instruction...
5717. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:39:27 AM
There are so many threads and most of the contributors are so weak and timid that the most of the threads last for years. You should choose a title than describes a general category, so it will be open to different uses over time.
5718. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:42:54 AM
I would begin the title with the word Equador, even if that was awkward. And I would make it brief.
5719. sakonige - 1/22/2000 12:44:39 AM
Ecquador = Eqadaor = Ecuador
5720. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/22/2000 12:58:50 AM
What a novel idea: we can use TT to create sub-threads. We could even link them from the butterscotch bar.
5721. sakonige - 1/22/2000 1:22:36 AM
NOT butterscotch?
I would call it strawberry_peach_anabanana
5722. PelleNilsson - 1/22/2000 5:34:53 AM
MsIT
The course centers on philosophical conflicts over epistemology and the nature of science, starting with Aristotle vs Plato and ending with the Frankfurter school, and the inevitable Foucault and the deconstructionists. The reading list is very long but also very interesting, because with one or two exceptions we read the original texts.
5723. MsIvoryTower - 1/22/2000 1:44:50 PM
Pelle
Whatever does Foucault have to do with the epistemology and nature of science?
Aristotle and Plato are fun to read for anything, but what other philosophers of science are included? Burkheim? Popper? Tell me you're reading Kuhn and Popper at the very least.
And I really, really hope that if you have to read Foucault, at least you have a translation.
5724. sakonige - 1/22/2000 2:13:37 PM
I had hoped PE would stop by and stir things up once more before heading to India, but it doesn't look like he has.
He mentioned he was leaving for India on Sunday during a brief visit in TT a few days ago.
5725. PelleNilsson - 1/22/2000 2:17:59 PM
Here is the list. If we are to discuss further I suggest we move to the Slow Thread.
| Platon | Aristotle |
| de Montaigne | Bacon |
| Descartes | Hume |
| Locke | Kant |
| Berkely | Schelling |
| Weber | Haeckel |
| Nietzsche | Hegel |
| Neurath | Carnap |
| Kolakowski | Ayer |
| Wittgenstein | Mannheim |
| Fleck | Hempel |
5726. PelleNilsson - 1/22/2000 2:19:48 PM
| Collingwood | Skinner |
| von Wright | Dilthey |
| Popper | Kuhn |
| Feyerabend | Kuhn |
| Husserl | Heidegger |
| Horkheimer | Adorno |
| Habermas | Foucault |
| Spivak |
5727. Candide - 1/22/2000 4:32:04 PM
PelleNilsson
I deeply regret your diappearance into the forest of Foucault. People who go there never return. Or if they do they are unrecognisable.
5728. PelleNilsson - 1/22/2000 5:31:38 PM
Candide
I've been there before and came back apparantly unharmed. In any case, at this level we don't discuss whether Foucault is right or wrong. His influence cannot be discounted.
5729. Uzmakk - 1/22/2000 5:44:14 PM
You older students are the coolest.
5730. ilyavinarsky - 1/22/2000 6:08:52 PM
No Alan Sokal?
5731. pseudoerasmus - 1/22/2000 6:43:54 PM
Actually, among the PoMo lit-crit-git-shits, Foucault is the most readable, intelligent and enjoyable (to refute). Surely the book Pelle will be touching is L’Ordre de choses, his challenge to scientific classification.
5732. pseudoerasmus - 1/22/2000 6:44:37 PM
Message # 5614: Was ist ja doch denn auch nur los?
5733. PelleNilsson - 1/22/2000 6:44:44 PM
ilya
Yes! At the end of the course one may choose between some current controversies. One of them is the Sokal business, and I think I'll go for that one.
5734. pseudoerasmus - 1/22/2000 6:48:15 PM
PincherMartin (Message # 5619)
The grumbling in Europe is hardly confined to businessmen, but can be heard among politicians, commentators, and even finance ministers.
In the 1980s, American businessmen, policiticians, commentators and even finance ministers could be heard and seen babbling about how the Japanese way of doing business was superior. How things have changed...
If an entire continent's firms are struggling to enter the latest high-tech sector, and that sector can be responsible for a pick-up in productivity...
I’ve said the same bloody thing over and over again. As far as I know, in the USA right now, the pick-up in productivity is primarily the average being pushed up by a single hyperproductive industry (high-tech). Well, I’m not current on this type of research, but I believe this was the conclusion of Robert Gordon.
There is a difference between the high-tech sector’s raising the average and the other sectors’ becoming more productive as a result of using the products made by the high-tech sector in their business. The latter benefits can be shared by the whole world if they do come to pass -- through technology transfer, as I said.
...than that continent -- while not entirely fucked -- certainly has economic problems they need to work out that go beyond the unemployment that you seem to think is the only area Europe suffers in...
Like what? I’m not saying Europe hasn’t got various problems, but the overwhelming economic problem faced by Western Europeans is high persistent unemployment and the hysteresis this implies.
5735. pseudoerasmus - 1/22/2000 6:50:18 PM
But ask any European how comfortable they feel about relying on American firms to supply the goods necessary for them to raise their productivity.
That’s not an economic problem. That’s a political, psychological and nationalistic problem. You could have asked Americans in the 1970s and 1980s how comfortable they felt about losing most of their consumer electronics production to Japan (among other things).
The other assumption you make is that technology transfers flow easily across borders once their productivity value is obvious. Why?
Because it happens. Countries trade. Technology is transferred. End of story.
You assume that others will want the technology -- that they don't see it as a threat. Biotechnology is one obvious example of a technology that is impeded by cultural attitudes.
Biotechnology in foods production is the only valid example I can think of. But Europeans already eat foodstuffs produced by inefficient agricultural operations (inefficient compared with what could be, and with American operations). And for the good, I might add.
There is no useful comparison between a small European state's low unemployment, which is a result of rationing labor (such as the Netherlands), and the US's low unemployment rate, which is a result of an unprecendented boom.
Result of ‘rationing labour’??? What on earth are you talking about? No, Sweden et al. reduced taxes on labour, made it easier for firms to fire workers, etc.
5736. pseudoerasmus - 1/22/2000 6:52:55 PM
US workers now work more hours per year than any other developed country's workers in the world (that includes Japan) -- something like an average of 47 hours per week.
Why is that a good thing?
...a lack of action in this area this will have negative consequences to its growth (note: negative consequences to its growth is not the same as negative growth).
For reasons explained earlier, I disagree.
Your Landgrab.com article is interesting, but what of it? So what if the US firms (with equity dispersed around the world) end up controlling this? I say that’s great for the whole world. I would elaborate but for the late hour and the lack of time.
If you don't see a response from me to your response for a month+, it's not that I'm ignoring you, I probably haven't any internet connection until then.
5737. Candide - 1/22/2000 6:58:35 PM
Indeed. Just WHY is that a good thing?
Allow me to lower the tone.
I have just read that Frank Zappa described politics as the entertainment end of Big Business.
5738. MsIvoryTower - 1/22/2000 7:33:46 PM
Pelle
That's a good list, IMO. I'd like to read some of them myself (I've not read half of that list). Of course, Foucault and the lit-crit crowd in any form is torture for me so I'd hate that part.
Your course content, however, differs radically from the graduate course I had on the philosophy of science, which was predominately reading philosophers who had some theory of how science occurs, progresses, or develops.
I'm sure this sort of class varies widely depending on the professor's interests.
5739. dusty - 1/22/2000 7:50:00 PM
PelleNilsson
I hope you can find things to share with us, as the class progresses.
5740. Seguine - 1/22/2000 8:46:07 PM
Pincher: "But ask any European how comfortable they feel about relying on American firms to supply the goods necessary for them to raise their productivity."
PE: "That’s not an economic problem. That’s a political, psychological and nationalistic problem."
This will seem like an invitation to a digression you haven't time for just now, PE, but exactly how does that rejoinder square with your usual assertion that "economics has nothing to do with money" (also offered, in previous discussions, as some version of "economics is not only about money")?
5741. Candide - 1/22/2000 9:00:57 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/sokal-nonsense.html
Some of you may enjoy the above article as much as I did. You must be reistered with the NYT.
Thanks Ilya for the Alan Sokal reference.
5742. Candide - 1/22/2000 11:23:25 PM
TO ALL INTERESTED IN THE PINOCHET CASE. DO LOOK AT "MAN OF STRAW" BY CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS IN "THE NATION". Available in the banana strip.
5743. cmboyce - 1/22/2000 11:29:27 PM
Thanks for the reminder of that Zappa quote, Candide. He actually said "the Military-Industrial Complex" rather than "Big Business", which is less accurate but funnier.
5744. Candide - 1/22/2000 11:53:54 PM
Another terrific article in "The Nation" is a study of Berlusconi's place in Italian and European politics. It's in a section about globalisation of the media. Emperor of the Air
An excerpt:
"In the five years since Berlusconi entered political life, no
Italian television network, private or public, has aired a full
examination of the Fininvest/Mafia connection, despite the
existence of thousands of court documents and police wiretaps
documenting it. The Italian people know far more about the US
President's sexual relationship with a White House intern
than the relationship of the most powerful man in Italy with
the Mafia."
5745. Candide - 1/22/2000 11:56:01 PM
cmboyce
My source must have misquoted him. Why do the good die young?
5746. Candide - 1/23/2000 12:11:29 AM
Correction.
It's in "THE NEW GLOBAL MEDIA" in the strip on the right (near the bottom) on Nation's home page. I've followed Italian politics fairly closely until recently when exhaustion took over, and I think this is a good article.
"Emperor of the Air".
5747. Candide - 1/24/2000 6:24:02 AM
A petition against son of Star Wars. Keep weapons out of space.
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/BKG/petition.html
5748. marjoribanks - 1/24/2000 9:33:36 AM
Rajeev Srinivasan on China (surprsie surprise)
This long article, in two parts, is perhaps his best yet on the subject.
5749. marjoribanks - 1/24/2000 9:41:25 AM
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the columns I link to this forum regularly from Indian portal Rediff, I am linking this columnist page. Several of these people are interesting. I regularly read all of them, Varsha Bhosle (daughter of legendary 'playback' singer Asha Bhosle) is an out and out hard-core Hindu fundamentalist and always enjoyable and provocative, Dilip D'Souza is a classic liberal handwringer (Candide may like his stuff), Pritish Nandy is a contrarian and one of the best journalists India has to offer, and the two military fellows are always enlightening.
5750. marjoribanks - 1/24/2000 9:46:18 AM
Candide,
I take it you're regularly sent petitions such as the one above. Not that there is ever anything wrong with grass-roots organization, but I wonder why people ever waste their time on specifics such as these. Surely before we can even address the issue of weapons in outer space we should concentrate on weapons right here on earth, and the mega-trillion $ trade in conventional armaments. Have you ever checked out the SIPRI stats, those good Skandies produce frightening numbers, reminding us that a redistribution of funds could easily solve virtually every problem we face as human beings on a fairly fragile planet.
5751. marjoribanks - 1/24/2000 9:48:25 AM
5752. RustlerPike - 1/24/2000 10:38:12 AM
sto3 - did you get my email about that graph of internet hosts?
5753. Candide - 1/24/2000 3:27:56 PM
marjoribanks
Dilip D'Souza is a classic liberal handwringer (Candide may like his stuff)
I'll get you for that!
Surely before we can even address the issue of weapons in outer
space we should concentrate on weapons right here on earth, and
the mega-trillion $ trade in conventional armaments. Have you ever
checked out the SIPRI stats, those good Skandies produce
frightening numbers, reminding us that a redistribution of funds
could easily solve virtually every problem we face as human beings on a fairly fragile planet.
Already there marjoribanks. I have wasted years of my life assisting better people do precisely that, including people from SIPRI. There are special nasty implications about this Buck Rogers game of weapons in space. I agree, let's concentrate on getting rid of the obscene armaments industry on earth and let's also stop the pretentious immoral bastards from getting into space.
It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. (Genteel version -we all know what the real version is.)
I didn't really expect many people who are scared of soiling their image to have the guts to sign the petition. And then there are the others.......
Well! I was never actually part of the PEACE movement! Not that I'd actually admit to it anyway. The aggressive disarmament movement is more my style.
5754. Candide - 1/24/2000 3:47:58 PM
marjoribanks 5748
Rajeev Srinivasan.
Ah yesssss. A true man of peace. Could the word 'paranoid' be applied to him do you think?
I can understand why anyone living next door to a country as unpredictable and chauvinistic as China should be wary, but the triumphalism and gloating and lack of human sympathy is pretty distasteful marjoribanks.
He writes vigorously and is very entertaining and makes a lot of isolated good points and then lines them all up to form battle lines.
He's like a feminist's worst nightmare of runaway testosterone.
5755. Candide - 1/24/2000 4:14:26 PM
marjoribanks
Thanks for the SIPRI site.
I used to do publicity work (unpaid) for the United Nations Association Disaramament Committee and we met a lot of SIPRI people, as I also did in my work with Scientists For Nuclear Disarmament - now absorbed into Scientists and Engineers for Global Responsibility.
There's not such a need for an agitator like me now in this cyber age. Then it was telephones, newspapers,television, radio, meetings ...all ghastly but necessary.
The SIPRI people whom I met would definitely have signed the anti-Star Wars petition.
5756. Candide - 1/24/2000 4:26:07 PM
marjoribanks
Thanks again. I have bookmarked the columnists and will read them later.
GeoCities is being dreadfully slow. I suppose I'm not alone in waiting forever for each move from the Mote this morning.
5757. PelleNilsson - 1/24/2000 4:48:29 PM
Pak marj
Have you opened Pandora's box?
5758. Candide - 1/24/2000 5:06:46 PM
PelleNilsson
I'm not surprised by your reaction.
5759. Candide - 1/24/2000 5:10:02 PM
PelleNilsson
Relax. I no longer work for those groups. I hate discussing these matters. It's like discussing whether life is better than death. I just believe in putting fires out before they become conflagrations,(or a topic for gentlemanly study) even when it means belching out loud in the Gentlemen's Club.
5760. Candide - 1/24/2000 6:04:54 PM
PelleNilsson
Sorry if I'm tetchy. You did come on a mite superior from your alabaster hall.
Of course I've been chattering. Parts of the Mote have been like an empty shopping mall.
The internationally interesting (thread topic maintained) Australian speech discussion must perforce be very boring for you, but to some of us it's extremely interesting.
5761. PelleNilsson - 1/24/2000 6:11:45 PM
Candide
Not at all boring. And in any case it is rather commonplace that threads go off on a tangent for some time. Long ago I used to get upset about it. No more.
Now, good night.
5762. Candide - 1/24/2000 6:16:29 PM
Goodnight sweet Pelle.
See what I mean? You're tired and I've just woken up.
Have a good sleep anyway.
5763. Candide - 1/24/2000 11:59:15 PM
marjoribanks
Have you read Ghandi's Daughters in the January 10, 2000, "New Yorker"?
5764. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/25/2000 1:13:50 AM
Candide:
Arrrgh. You have committed the spelling error which (irrationally, of course) irritates me more than any other. It's Gandhi.
On a positive note, you'll probably be pleased with the following report from the Jakarta Post:
Indonesia and Australia start patching up strained ties
Alexander Downer said all the right things while here. I wonder if he thinks John Howard is as much of an ass as Gus Dur does (and, if what I saw on TV while in Australia is any indicator, as most Australians do).
5765. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/25/2000 1:18:12 AM
Oops, I screwed up that attempted link.
Here it is:
Indonesia and Australia start patching up strained ties
5766. Candide - 1/25/2000 2:02:14 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
And SO IT IS!
I'll write it out one thousand times.
Deepest apologies to you and to Gandhi.
5767. Candide - 1/25/2000 2:16:00 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
I've read the Jakarta Post article.
That's very good. Downer is rather ridiculed here in Australia but his gentle personality (which often appears inane) may be what the situation requires. I think he is basically a good man and I'm sure he can't stand John Howard. Hardly any of the old Liberal party can. Downer is married to the daughter of Captain O'Neil who was prime minister of Northern Ireland in the 1960s. He comes from the 'born to rule' class of politician, but in a way that makes him less abrasive and more attentive to the personal side of politics - in the sense that he will be talking to the people of Indonesia, not just to a government.
The swashbuckling comedian Keating with his Irish passion unfortunately made friends with the people with whom he was obliged to deal. The WRONG people. I'm sure that Wahid would have preferred him to the other Australian politicians.
I don't know whether you were aware of Keating's blurted out defiance, some months ago, about his past dealings with Indonesia - his speech was both understandable and out of place. In Keating's place I would probably have done the same - blurted a defence I mean. (I'm sure you'll agree with that!)
5768. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/25/2000 6:24:02 AM
Candide:
I think Downer has just the right touch for dealing with Indonesia. He made a lot of friends in the new government during his brief visit, and Australia's support for Indonesia on the international tribunal issue is a real help to mending ties. But there's always Howard, who has a real talent for putting his foot in his mouth.
My lasting image of Howard are some photos I saw on TV while in Australia of Howard's visit to the USA last July. There was Howard, walking along the street in Washington, DC, being totally ignored by all the people passing. The voice-over (imitating Howard) was saying "Hey! Stop! I'm a major world leader! Don't you people know who I am? I'm important!"
Keating was well-liked here, probably for all the wrong reasons. I was never very impressed with the man, but at least he understood international diplomacy. Of course, I haven't been much of a fan of any Australian PM since Gough Whitlam.
I don't think Keating can be faulted for his policy toward Indonesia. He built strong bilateral ties which have made the rough spots easier to get over this time.
5769. stostosto - 1/25/2000 6:27:00 AM
Rustlr #5752
Yes, I got your e-mail. I'll look into it.
5770. ScottLoar - 1/25/2000 7:37:12 AM
Yes, Gandhi, rhymes with candy.
5771. Candide - 1/25/2000 4:48:27 PM
IrvingSnodgrass
Keating was blamed for everything including the weather after he was defeated. His adored wife left him and he was left in the prime of his life, exposed, ridiculed and lonely. I always greatly enjoyed Keating's vulgarisms because they contained a sharp peasant wit and a passion for doing the "right thing".
Downer went to university in Newcastle in northern England. To my English-trained ear he speaks with an educated Australian accent with some flattened northern English vowels. To the ears of most Australians he sounds like a member of the English upper classes, which only goes to show how much difference there is in perception. I have never met an English person who doesn't hear him the way I do.
ScottLoar
I hope Mohandas Karamchand will forgive me. It's the sort of mistake I hate.
5772. CalGal - 1/25/2000 9:48:30 PM
A week or so ago, we had a conversation about sterilization of women for money. Grey just linked in an article about 10 US cities that have such a program--see Current Events.
5773. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/25/2000 10:23:35 PM
Candide:
I've never heard Downer speak, but I'm glad to know he has oversome his linguistic limitations to function effectively as Foreign Minister.
5774. Candide - 1/25/2000 10:39:30 PM
IrvingSnodgrass
Hoho.
5775. profemeritus - 1/25/2000 10:59:30 PM
I am hoping to visit Indonesia in the near future if I get any encouragement to do so. Since this will be my 39th trip I may be able to find some old friends there unless they have all been appointed to Abdurrachman's enormous group af cabinet members and advisers. I can be there only 10 days so I will not be able to visit all of the Indonesian islands. There are still a few I missed in previous visits.
5776. stostosto - 1/26/2000 6:38:03 AM
Marj
Thank you for linking Srinivasan yet again. I must say that for a guy who argues that China doesn't matter, he does seem to be fretting fairly voluminously about that country.
But I tend to agree with him. I have always wondered why the Americans are so worked up about China, for instance. It's something of a fixation.
At the same time, the straightforward conclusion for India is to simply relax about China. By all means, talk tough to the Chinese on democracy and human rights, and keep calm in the face of any Chinese diplomatic fits, etc.
But Indians' prime concern should be to concentrate on developing those "world-class infotech companies" - and, crucially, the human resources on which they are based.
It may be true that Chinese growth is some percentage points poorer, and their PPP-GDP per cap. perhaps 25% lower, and crowing about that may make the Srinivasans of this world feel better. But it does not add one extra rupee to the dismal state of Indian income levels, and, just conceivably, there are plenty of things the Indians could and should do to alleviate that situation.
Crying foul at official Chinese statistics, however justified, doesn't go a long way in that respect.
But having Indian GDP growth rates accelerate (perhaps even overtake Chinese ones), that would make a real difference. Even if India might not be able to match Chinese income levels for another 20 years. First of all, to the quality of life in India, but, if that's the preoccupation, surely also in political and military stature.
5777. KULIgintheHOOLIgan - 1/26/2000 7:55:00 AM
Of interest:
Our new year started yesterday at the seminary. All of our new students are Namibians, which is to be expected, but we have two "foreign" students as well, a woman from Zimbabwe, and a guy from Burundi. The latter WALKED from Burundi to Namibia. Yes, he walked. He's a refugee from Burundi and he ended up in the Osire Refugee Camp here in Namibia. The camp, which was designed to hold about 2000 people, now has over 8000, mostly Angolans.
5778. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 10:01:38 AM
marj, anyone else:
I need to get info wrt the availability and rates of ISDN lines (128k) in New Delhi (no internet connection, just a line). I have had very little luck so far, despite conducting a rather wearying web search. Can you help me out in any way?
Thx, Rustler A. Pike
5779. marjoribanks - 1/26/2000 10:06:21 AM
Pike, click on tariffs here. $1=roughly Rs.43.
Sto, of course you know I agree with your comments thoroughly. I'll try and add some more to them when I have a few minutes.
5780. ScottLoar - 1/26/2000 10:11:49 AM
I will personally contribute US$100 to further that man from Burundi's education at your seminary. Instruct me on how to proceed.
5781. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 10:28:37 AM
Marj:
I'd been there actually, but that would seem to be for internet access. All I need is the line.
I am,
Your most respectful and obsequeious friend, in both need and deed,
R. Pike
5782. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 10:32:37 AM
I'm sure there's an extra vowel or two there, I just don't know which.
5783. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 10:33:58 AM
Ah, the 'e'.
5784. marjoribanks - 1/26/2000 10:34:21 AM
Pikester,
I don't get it. What is the purpose of acquiring an ISDN line in Delhi without internet access? Anyway, the best fastest way to do this is to either call them (since VSNL is the person who'd fulfill this odd request anyway), or contact the relevant attache at the Consulate in T. Aviv. Make them do the work for you, that's why they're there.
Yours in abject humility,
Major I. Banks (ret'd)
5785. marjoribanks - 1/26/2000 10:35:05 AM
VSNL is the entity....
5786. KULIgintheHOOLIgan - 1/26/2000 10:53:36 AM
Scott,
Wow! e-mail me at
v_kuligin@yahoo.com
and I'll tell you what to do. Thanks!
5787. ScottLoar - 1/26/2000 11:22:14 AM
Relax. It's just that such an outstanding effort should be immediately rewarded and I admire the man's grit. I think he'll be a credit to your school.
5788. PelleNilsson - 1/26/2000 1:04:31 PM
Rustler
Inquiring minds want to know what you are going to do with that ISDN line in India. If you think you can use it to carry 128K to some other location you are either dead wrong or exceedingly clever.
5789. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 1:09:18 PM
Pellester, Marj:
Who says one can't use ISDN for other purposes than internet? I think 95% of the world's videoconferencing facilities use ISDN lines. To the best of my knowledge - they don't go through the internet.
Not that this is what I am doing, of course. Heh heh.
5790. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 1:11:17 PM
Major:
Calling the attache is a brilliant idea. I'll do that.
Yours in verisimilitude,
Pike
5791. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 1:13:11 PM
This is definitely an attache case.
(Oy).
5792. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 1:15:48 PM
btw - was Constantinople/Istanbul once known as Kushta?
5793. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 1:19:44 PM
And was Ferdinand king (or emperor) of AH in 1913? Wasn't he just the archduke?
5794. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 1:21:13 PM
Oh wait - was there a King Ferdinand of Bulgaria? Shit.
5795. PelleNilsson - 1/26/2000 1:36:44 PM
Rustler
I strongly suspect that you are on the wrong track. As I said you cannot get a 128K block from India to some place else using the switched telephone network. You can get 2x64K but that's another cup of tea altogether. Please explain what you want to do either here or in an e-mail.
I remain Your Excellency's most humble servant,
Pelle
5796. Candide - 1/26/2000 4:29:50 PM
PelleNilsson
Good evening and good morning.
There's a great deal of radio news about the conference in Stockholm.
5797. PelleNilsson - 1/26/2000 5:31:30 PM
Candide
Here is a well-reasoned piece on one of your favourite subjects.
5798. Candide - 1/26/2000 6:46:08 PM
PelleNilsson
Thank you for the best and most rational article on the subject that I have read for a good long time.
It's truly not my favourite subject. I found myself in the position of being one of the few canaries in the local coal mine. I much prefer Scubert and would love never to have to think about things nuclear ever again.
The trouble is that the subject won't go away. In the old days I used my theatrical background to help to get scientists into the media. They were hopeless at speaking up about things that needed to be talked about. After a while some of them became quite vain in a nice sort of way and actually looked forward to being on TV. Rather droll.
Now that the internet has replaced middle-people, the scientists are back to watching their rapidly diminishing job opportunities.
Thank God for The Simpsons.
5799. RustlerPike - 1/26/2000 10:32:49 PM
Pellestein:
I don't know about blocks and stuff like that. Perhaps I was misusing the terminology. But basically videoconferencing is done via ISDN lines on bandwidth from 64k upwards, with 384k usually being the minimum for TV-like quality, and bigger bandwidths used for multipoint conferences (Tokyo Paris NY for instance). My idea had something to do with videoconferencing, but since there are other people involved in this venture and it's still in the feasibility study phase I can't really say much more about it.
5800. marjoribanks - 1/26/2000 11:05:40 PM
Pikester,
You need contacts in India? I got em, every one you'll need to do business there. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. And I'll only ask for a miniscule portion of equity in return. BTW, anything IT infrastructure or Internet related in the Indian market gets all the funds it could ever utilize. It's a bit like the US was a couple of years ago. This without a shred of a decent infrastructure for the sector in question. But big players are moving in.
5801. Candide - 1/26/2000 11:16:07 PM
message 5798
Scubert's good but Schubert's better.
5802. PelleNilsson - 1/27/2000 2:26:11 AM
Rustler
Be careful when you think about transmitting data over dial-up international connections. Sometimes, in particular when satellite transmission is involved, operators use compression techniques to save on bandwidth.
5803. Candide - 1/27/2000 3:11:39 PM
PelleNilsson
A Concise History of the first Swdes in Australia
Some Swedish/Australian facts that you probably know already.
First Swede arrived in 1770 - Daniel Solander (1736-82) botanist with Captain Cook on first voyage.
Swedes among early convicts; e.g Anders Nyman sentenced in Britain to 14 years for burglary. Naturalised 25 years later. Four Swedes were naturalised before 1846.
In 1826 the Swedish ship “Gouverneur Sterling”, bound for Western Australia had 5 Swedes in the crew.
In 1840 there arrived in Sydney the Mary Ann a trading schooner, sent to Australia with a valuable cargo by the Swedish entrepreneur Carl Fredrik Liljevalch.
This was the first of several expeditions in the 1840s. A group of farmers from the province of West Götland had been encouraged by Liljevalch to sell their farms and to emigrate as a group, but the scheme collapsed.
Before 1850 there were just a few dozen Swedes in Australia, but after the news of the discovery of gold in Victoria reached Sweden in 1851 groups of Swedes were soon found at the diggings.
Corfitz Cronqvist estimated that between 1857-1859 there were 1500 Swedes in Victoria, of whom only 6 were women.
Another bit of Swedish Australian history:
In Sydney in 1877 a society called Valhalla was formed. It became notable for its wild banquets, often necessitating the presence of the police. It survived for only one year.
In 1883 a society called Vikingen (the Viking) was founded. At its peak it boasted a fine rented club-room with a library and relief fund. In the 1890s a group of Swedes gathered around the Sydney workshop of a swedish mechanic, Andreas Ringdahl, whose chief passion was the singing of Swedish drinking songs with sociable Swedish companions. The produced a hand-written publication called Sillsaladen (the Herring Salad).
5804. Candide - 1/27/2000 3:12:32 PM
TheSwdes turned into Swedes.
5805. Candide - 1/27/2000 3:21:46 PM
All of the above was typed before coffee. I crave your indulgence.
5806. PelleNilsson - 1/27/2000 4:27:22 PM
Candide
Thank you. I knew about Solander, one of Linneus' students, but not about the other stuff. I don't think that there has been any serious study here of early Swedish emigration to Australia. What is your source?
5807. marjoribanks - 1/27/2000 4:46:50 PM
Hey Pikester,
While badgering the Indian attache for something he's never heard of, you may wish to read and please comment on this outstanding long article on Israel from the Atlantic magazine. I eagerly await your comments, to me it seems like one of the better journalistic surveys on the country I've read in some time.
And where the hell is that prodigal, Psocko, anyway. He should be commenting on it too.
5808. Indiana Jones - 1/27/2000 4:49:19 PM
Speaking of Candide's favorite subjects.
5809. PelleNilsson - 1/27/2000 4:54:36 PM
marj
That article has been linked earlier, although I don't remember by whom. I wasn't impressed.
5810. marjoribanks - 1/27/2000 4:59:43 PM
By the way, everyone, I also recommend this odd but fascinating article from the Atlantic. 5811. marjoribanks - 1/27/2000 5:01:04 PM Fair enough, Pelle. Though I find some of Kaplan's quite subjective conclusions shadow mine. 5812. stostosto - 1/27/2000 5:42:21 PM Hi all 5813. Candide - 1/27/2000 10:36:13 PM PelleNilsson 5814. Candide - 1/27/2000 11:11:58 PM stostosto 5815. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2000 7:00:35 AM You may have noted that a Swede, Hans Blix, has been appointed head of the new arms inspection team for Iraq. Blix, 71, has a Ph.D. in international law and pursued a diplomatic career. He was Foreign Minister in 1978-79. In 1981 he became head of IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and remained there until he retired in 1997. 5816. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 9:02:40 AM Sto, 5817. Candide - 1/28/2000 3:32:12 PM PelleNilsson 5818. Candide - 1/28/2000 3:42:08 PM PelleNilsson 5819. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2000 4:40:25 PM Candide 5820. Candide - 1/28/2000 4:45:17 PM PelleNilsson 5821. Candide - 1/28/2000 4:59:28 PM Let me quote Lyubov Kovalevskaya, the whistle-blower from Pripyat. 5822. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2000 5:13:40 PM Candide 5823. Candide - 1/28/2000 5:27:12 PM PelleNilsson 5824. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2000 5:32:02 PM OK, Candide. In any case I'm off to bed in a little while. 5825. Candide - 1/28/2000 6:22:09 PM Yes, this was in the 1960's. What happened was that analysis and 5826. Candide - 1/28/2000 6:32:48 PM PelleNilsson (the last post also) 5827. RustlerPike - 1/29/2000 12:06:51 AM 5828. marjoribanks - 1/29/2000 12:21:34 AM Pikester, 5829. Candide - 1/29/2000 12:28:34 AM marjoribanks 5830. RustlerPike - 1/29/2000 12:28:42 AM 5831. RustlerPike - 1/29/2000 12:29:30 AM 5832. marjoribanks - 1/29/2000 12:34:13 AM Candide, 5833. marjoribanks - 1/29/2000 12:36:53 AM Pikester, 5834. RustlerPike - 1/29/2000 1:29:53 AM 5835. RustlerPike - 1/29/2000 2:35:29 AM 5836. RustlerPike - 1/29/2000 3:19:24 AM 5837. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 6:57:18 AM Rustler 5838. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 7:20:46 AM Candide 5839. Candide - 1/29/2000 2:47:21 PM PelleNilsson 5840. Candide - 1/29/2000 2:48:35 PM Myrdal. Sorry. 5841. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 3:05:52 PM Candide 5842. Candide - 1/29/2000 3:12:15 PM PelleNilsson 5843. Candide - 1/29/2000 3:43:55 PM PelleNilsson 5844. KuligintheHooligan - 1/29/2000 3:52:56 PM The problems in the north of Namibia continue, with Angolan UNITA rebels still causing havoc. The missionaries in the Mbukushu region, along the Caprivi Strip between Rundu and Katima Mulilo, the ones who were shelled Christmas Eve from across the river by UNITA rebels, went up this past week to assess the situation. 5845. Candide - 1/29/2000 3:57:29 PM KuligantheHooligan 5846. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 5:52:04 PM Candide 5847. Candide - 1/29/2000 6:07:30 PM Pelle 5848. Candide - 1/29/2000 6:17:40 PM For" fashioned socialist " please read OLD fashioned socialist. 5849. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 6:53:06 PM Candide 5850. Candide - 1/29/2000 7:00:05 PM PelleNilsson 5851. Jonesy - 1/29/2000 7:04:30 PM Irv- Mail arrived today! My son has a message for you and your family: 5852. sakonige - 1/29/2000 7:22:49 PM There are a lot of tree frogs in my garden here in the NW US, since they breed in our backyard pond. There seem to be at least four species, ranging from olive camouflage about an inch across to chartreuse pinky-fingernail sized. It often snows here for a few weeks, and although the temperatures rarely fall below 20ºF, that still seems pretty cold for a frog. I still haven't figured out where they go in the winter, but the garden is always bouncing with frogs by March. 5853. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 7:35:09 PM Please forgive me for asking what relation frogs have to international issues. You may indicate your preference as to where these posts should be moved. Otherwise they will simply be deleted. 5854. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/29/2000 8:52:20 PM Jonesy: 5855. sakonige - 1/29/2000 9:45:48 PM PelleNilsson, 5856. profemeritus - 1/29/2000 10:34:08 PM Pelle 5857. Candide - 1/29/2000 10:40:29 PM According to articles in the New Scientist scientists the world over are concerned about the apparent disappearance of many frogs. There is much debate about whether global warming or pollution are responsible. Once common Australian species are disappearing. Environmentalists suggest that the frog may be a sort of coal-miners'canary in the world environment and perhaps be one of the first warnings. 5858. alistairconnor - 1/29/2000 10:46:44 PM Never underestimate the symbiotic relationships in agriculture. ProfE, do you know anything about the Japanese-initiated rice/duck method? I believe it is spreading throughout Southeast Asia. 5859. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/29/2000 10:48:40 PM Jonesy: 5860. Candide - 1/29/2000 10:48:45 PM Have you never eaten an Italian frog risotto? 5861. Candide - 1/29/2000 10:50:23 PM Should we leap to the Slow Thread? 5862. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/29/2000 10:51:34 PM Why move? It isn't as if this thread is getting heavy traffic. 5863. Candide - 1/29/2000 11:00:43 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5864. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/29/2000 11:33:48 PM Candide: 5865. Candide - 1/29/2000 11:42:43 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5866. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/30/2000 12:12:31 AM Pelle will croak when he sees that one. He'll be speechless. He'll have a frog in his throat. 5867. SnowOwl - 1/30/2000 12:18:17 AM I think he'll be hopping mad. 5868. RustlerPike - 1/30/2000 12:50:56 AM 5869. Candide - 1/30/2000 1:16:11 AM I meant to post this in the cafe or the inferno but I think here is the spot after all. 5870. Candide - 1/30/2000 2:27:02 AM I was going to have my first tryout at a link but the HTML won't open for me. 5871. Candide - 1/30/2000 2:33:46 AM Not my day. File Not Found. When I tried using the URL. It's in the Sunday edition of The Independent. Arkan story in the world section. 5872. PelleNilsson - 1/30/2000 4:43:36 AM Croak. 5873. Candide - 1/30/2000 7:02:51 AM Pelle 5874. KuligintheHooligan - 1/30/2000 8:02:36 AM Candide, 5875. RustlerPike - 1/30/2000 9:40:21 AM 5876. RustlerPike - 1/30/2000 9:45:37 AM 5877. PelleNilsson - 1/30/2000 2:52:52 PM It was a good-natured croak. Who can resist it, when Sakonige and Pak Gurubesar so elegantly and effortlessly raise the frog to the international level? 5878. profemeritus - 1/30/2000 2:59:05 PM Pelle 5879. Candide - 1/30/2000 3:02:30 PM RustlerPike 5880. Candide - 1/30/2000 3:04:22 PM KuligantheHooligan 5881. KuligintheHooligan - 1/30/2000 4:19:06 PM "Moi seems to be weakening in his old age." 5882. KuligintheHooligan - 1/30/2000 4:27:01 PM Candide 5883. Candide - 1/30/2000 6:24:08 PM KuligantheHooligan 5884. Candide - 1/30/2000 11:11:32 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5885. Candide - 1/30/2000 11:11:59 PM Handing secret information secretly to the UN 5886. Candide - 1/30/2000 11:27:09 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5887. Candide - 1/30/2000 11:28:13 PM But General Wiranto's lawyers and military 5888. Candide - 1/30/2000 11:29:11 PM The Indonesian human rights inquiry 5889. Candide - 1/30/2000 11:29:40 PM The 2,000-page inquiry report is believed to 5890. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/30/2000 11:43:01 PM Candide: 5891. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/30/2000 11:46:09 PM The alternative, to make such information public, would risk the integrity of these investigations. What the Indonesian Human Rights Commission is after is the truth, and to be able to use this truth to nail those responsible for atrocities in East Timor. Needless to say, the UN investigation is after the same thing. 5892. Candide - 1/31/2000 12:11:23 AM The Mote is SLOW 5893. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 12:24:33 AM Candide: 5894. Candide - 1/31/2000 12:25:30 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5895. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 12:52:02 AM Hahaha. You're welcome to use any of my words, Candide. 5896. Candide - 1/31/2000 1:00:30 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5897. Candide - 1/31/2000 1:08:52 AM International and Poetry Moties may care to look at the present edition of "The Nation" (in banana strip) where Calvin Trillen has a jingle commencing: 5898. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 1:22:51 AM Candide: 5899. Candide - 1/31/2000 1:25:04 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5900. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 1:29:32 AM From the SMH article on the UN report: 5901. Candide - 1/31/2000 1:31:58 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5902. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 1:36:26 AM Candide: 5903. Candide - 1/31/2000 1:38:13 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5904. Candide - 1/31/2000 1:42:17 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5905. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 1:51:41 AM Candide: 5906. Candide - 1/31/2000 7:17:39 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5907. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 8:00:51 AM Candide: 5909. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 9:16:20 AM Niner: 5910. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 9:23:07 AM I moved niner's post to the Inferno. Here. 5911. 109109 - 1/31/2000 9:24:34 AM This is why I have come to the tribunal for verification. I was also concerned that the Mote persona "Irving Snodgrass" may, in fact, be a headless correspondent. 5912. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 9:30:19 AM Niner: 5913. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 9:33:52 AM I moved it because I didn't want it here. It is not only us regulars who read this read. Not only registered Moties either. 5914. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 9:34:08 AM read = thread 5915. 109109 - 1/31/2000 9:37:15 AM So I guess my next question - whether it is true that the decapitated Indonesian heads are sold to Nordic peoples as aphrodisiacs - is better left unasked? 5916. CalGal - 1/31/2000 9:43:27 AM I wonder if firing squads are more popular because you can't point to a single killer? 5917. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 9:44:15 AM It is a much sought-after item here but unfortunately in extremely short supply since the proper preparation of it must start within two hours of the "incident" that led to the decapitation. 5918. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 9:46:34 AM Pelle: 5919. IrvingSnodgrass - 1/31/2000 9:53:07 AM CalGal: 5920. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 9:56:16 AM Irv 5921. Dantheman - 1/31/2000 11:37:57 AM China bans another religious group 5922. Candide - 1/31/2000 3:25:43 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5923. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 3:31:39 PM Candide 5924. Candide - 1/31/2000 3:36:39 PM Dantheman 5925. Dantheman - 1/31/2000 3:40:39 PM Candide, 5926. Candide - 1/31/2000 3:43:40 PM Pelle 5927. Candide - 1/31/2000 3:45:41 PM Dantheman 5928. Candide - 1/31/2000 3:46:30 PM believing --it flashed past my eyes as it posted. 5929. Dantheman - 1/31/2000 3:52:36 PM Candide 5927, 5930. Candide - 1/31/2000 4:05:40 PM Dantheman 5931. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2000 4:30:34 PM Candide 5932. Candide - 1/31/2000 4:33:44 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5933. Candide - 1/31/2000 7:02:54 PM IrvingSnodgrass 5934. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 12:00:06 AM 5935. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 12:04:12 AM 5936. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 12:06:30 AM Candide: 5937. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 12:09:49 AM 5938. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 12:14:51 AM Rustler: 5939. Candide - 2/1/2000 12:17:25 AM RustlerPike 5940. Candide - 2/1/2000 12:21:00 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5941. Candide - 2/1/2000 12:21:39 AM moi not Moi. No political reference intended. 5942. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 12:27:03 AM 5943. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 12:30:27 AM 5944. bobkat7 - 2/1/2000 12:35:17 AM Zippora looks a lot older than Miriam. Is Zippora an older wife and this photo of a more recent marriage, to Miriam? Miriam seems to anticipate. Zippora looks resigned. 5945. Candide - 2/1/2000 12:47:02 AM RustlerPike 5942 5946. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 12:47:21 AM Rustler: 5947. hashke - 2/1/2000 1:24:12 AM Rustla: 5948. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 1:32:59 AM 5949. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 1:38:35 AM Rustler: 5950. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 1:39:17 AM 5951. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 1:40:32 AM 5952. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 1:51:45 AM 5953. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 1:54:11 AM 5954. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 1:55:11 AM Sorry about the typo, Rustler. 5955. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:00:06 AM 5956. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:03:00 AM 5957. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 2:05:20 AM I'm saying the name sounds funny in its English double-meaning form. 5958. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:14:13 AM 5959. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:17:37 AM 5960. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 2:27:19 AM Moi is in his 70's, I believe, not his 80's. And I doubt very nuch he'll ever retire willingly. He's not that type. 5961. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:56:21 AM 5962. Candide - 2/1/2000 3:04:14 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5963. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 3:05:18 AM 5964. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 3:06:35 AM 5965. Candide - 2/1/2000 3:11:02 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5966. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 3:12:51 AM 5967. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 3:13:55 AM 5968. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 3:15:50 AM Candide: 5969. Candide - 2/1/2000 3:20:51 AM IrvingSnodgrass 5970. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 3:21:43 AM 5971. Candide - 2/1/2000 3:44:44 AM RustlerPike 5972. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 3:50:00 AM 5973. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 6:58:48 AM Rustler's pic is of Ezer Weisman, I believe. 5974. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 10:07:32 AM 5975. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 10:13:26 AM 5976. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 10:13:57 AM And this is a working version of that link. 5977. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 10:17:34 AM Rustler 5978. marjoribanks - 2/1/2000 10:20:12 AM Hey, sto, recently you (perhaps sarcastically) asked me whether there were any free-trader types in the Indian intelligentsia and establishment or whether they were all demagogues like Rajiv Srinivasan. The answer, of course, was yes. read this typical column by India's most respected finance/economics writer. In fact, I recommend hunting out this 'Swaminomics' column regularly. Everyone I know in the metropolitan areas of India reads it avidly. 5979. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 10:33:54 AM Hi marj, 5981. marjoribanks - 2/1/2000 10:37:28 AM Ah yes, Pelle, I had forgotten about the family vacation. Did you make plans to talk on the phone or visit each other? It's fun to meet other motards, though occasionally it gets weird. At one gathering (in honor of the Snod) in NYC, I noticed that conversation progressed almost exactly in the posting pattern that exists in this forum. 5982. marjoribanks - 2/1/2000 10:38:19 AM Um, what does that mean Cellar? Who the hell is Dan Savage? 5983. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 10:44:06 AM The deleted post #5980 was by Cellar Door. If you want to read the childish spam I'm sure it survives in other threads. 5984. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 10:59:59 AM 5985. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 11:05:30 AM Rustler 5986. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 11:05:59 AM 5987. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 11:07:55 AM 5988. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 11:09:19 AM 5989. PelleNilsson - 2/1/2000 11:14:44 AM Rustler 5990. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:04:45 PM 5991. RustlerPike - 2/1/2000 2:06:24 PM 5992. stostosto - 2/1/2000 5:22:22 PM I am sorry for my absence. I am not skiing until another couple of weeks, Pelle. I am simply hard pressed for time at the moment. 5993. Candide - 2/1/2000 6:13:27 PM stostosto 5994. Candide - 2/1/2000 6:24:52 PM stostosto 5995. Candide - 2/1/2000 6:26:01 PM seNsitivities 5996. Candide - 2/1/2000 6:46:17 PM Where is this stostosto troublemaker who breezes in asking disturbing questions then disappears in a puff of coloured smoke? 5997. cmboyce - 2/1/2000 11:57:26 PM This Indonesia story is from the Washington Post (though the site is Brittanica, where I happened on it). Christ, I wish Gus Dur would go home! I'd think there was plenty of precedent for a head of state cancelling appointments abroad to return home in time of crisis. Maybe he wants to dampen the situation by treating as a non-crisis, to be dealt with when he returns. I sure hope it works. 5998. jonesatlaw - 2/1/2000 11:59:59 PM Pardon an ingorant American, but just exactly what business is it of the EU who is in government in Austria and who is out of the coalition? Surely any Nazi sympathizers are odious, but there have been odious members of coalition governments in the EU before, and I am unaware of any similar attempts at intervention in domestic politics in the past. Am I misinformed, or is this a change in practice? 5999. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 12:12:57 AM CM: 6000. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 12:14:15 AM The Japanese word is seppukku There is no comparable Indonesian tradition, so don't get your hopes up. 6001. Candide - 2/2/2000 12:16:21 AM IrvingSnodgrass 6002. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 12:19:03 AM CM: 6003. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 12:20:35 AM Candide: 6004. Candide - 2/2/2000 12:23:08 AM IrvingSnodgrass 6005. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 12:52:53 AM Candide: 6006. Candide - 2/2/2000 1:00:45 AM IrvingSnodgrass 6007. Candide - 2/2/2000 1:02:19 AM RaPPed over the knuckles. I don't think the other's possible! 6008. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 1:17:10 AM Candide: 6009. cmboyce - 2/2/2000 1:17:49 AM Thanks, Irv, you restore my faltering confidence in the man. Lacking Indonesian patience and decorum, I worry that his deliberate pace will leave him standing in front of a flash flood. But it is reassuring to hear about the press, and the new courts. It does indeed look as if a Wiranto coup would not be likely. 6010. cmboyce - 2/2/2000 1:20:26 AM My 6009 was of course responsive to 5999 et seq., and "the man" is of course Gus Dur. 6011. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 1:26:06 AM Ramos Horta is an East Timorese Nobel Laureate (he shared the honor with Belo in 1997). I've never been too impressed with the man, but that's a long story. Even now, he doesn't appear to be part of Xanana's team which will be rebuilding East Timor (I am a great fan of Xanana Gusmão, who will probably be the first president of Timor Lorosae). 6012. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 1:28:15 AM After the election in Austria the analysis was that the people had not really votet for Haidar but against the Social Democrat - Conservative coalition which has ruled the country practically since WWII without any effective opposition. They turned government into a closed shop with little parliamentary influence and ran an extensive patronage system based on party affiliation. 6013. Candide - 2/2/2000 1:32:00 AM Jose Ramos Horta shared the Nobel Peace Prize with Bishop Belo of East Timor. 6014. Candide - 2/2/2000 1:37:19 AM IrvingSnodgrass 6015. cmboyce - 2/2/2000 1:38:11 AM Thanks, Irv and Candide. I'd forgotten the Bishop shared the prize. He sounds like quite a piece of work. 6016. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 1:56:24 AM Candide: 6017. cmboyce - 2/2/2000 2:00:52 AM Does "Timor Timur" mean "East Timor" in Indonesian??!! "East East", then (assuming Timor and Timur are as cognate as similar)? 6018. Candide - 2/2/2000 2:02:59 AM If it wasn't Salman Rushdie it was someone of similar literary eminence who said Jose Ramos Horta was like a "whisky priest". 6019. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 2:06:34 AM CM: 6020. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 2:10:15 AM Hahaha, Candide. You really do have Horta pegged. 6021. cmboyce - 2/2/2000 2:10:47 AM "Timor Timur" means "East Timor" and 6022. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/2/2000 2:14:22 AM Although the TimTim name has odious connotations now, it wasn't coined as a patronizing name. All of Indonesia's provinces have smilar abbreviated names (KalTim for Kalimantam Timur, JaBar for Jawa Barat, IrJa for Irian Jaya, SulTeng for Sulawesi Tengah, SumSel for Sumatra Selatan, etc.). 6023. stostosto - 2/2/2000 6:49:51 AM jonesatlaw #5998 6024. stostosto - 2/2/2000 6:51:34 AM And, as I said, I can't believe that the heads of state really think this is the best strategy for combatting parties on the xenophobic right. One core element of the popular attraction of this political movement is the deep-seated, if diffuse, feeling that traditional and basic values of the nation state, including its social responsibility towards all of the nation's citizens, is being threatened by an internationally, globally oriented political and business elite. An elite who doesn't care about these values and feelings of ordinary people, and who is prepared to scheme, manipulate and overrule the beliefs of the public at large. The answer to this should be to 6025. Candide - 2/2/2000 6:59:50 AM stostosto 6026. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:13:40 AM marjoribanks's wife has taken him to hospital to have the baby. See stories. 6027. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 7:33:07 AM sto 6028. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:37:56 AM Candide: 6029. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 7:38:16 AM It appears that the Chechen fighters are starting to leave Groszny. 6030. stostosto - 2/2/2000 8:06:20 AM Pelle: 6031. stostosto - 2/2/2000 8:11:00 AM Oh, and of course: The Austrians have formed the government that they were told not to. Surprise. How could they not? 6032. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 8:22:34 AM I do not think ambassadors will be expelled, but they will only be received on the "technical level", with no access to political decision-makers. 6033. stostosto - 2/2/2000 8:37:51 AM Don't be ashamed, not even almost, Pelle. 6034. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 8:52:00 AM I see some contrasts between the EU's condemnation of Austria for forming a government with Haider's party and their condemnation of the Turkish army for intervening a few years ago to keep the Islamist party out of the government when it received a similar share of the popular vote. While I am disgusted that over a quarter of Austria's electorate would vote for someone with Haider's views, the principles of democracy require that the results of a free and fair dempocratic election be respected. 6035. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 8:52:47 AM oops -- democratic, not dempocratic, obviously 6036. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 9:36:23 AM To look at the other side of the coin, we have to remember that Hitler came to power by democratic means. It is the spectre, I guess, which haunts many people. 6037. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 9:37:21 AM sto 6038. profemeritus - 2/2/2000 9:56:10 AM Candide 6039. RustlerPike - 2/2/2000 2:41:01 PM 6040. PelleNilsson - 2/2/2000 2:53:58 PM Rustler 6041. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 2:55:03 PM RP, 6042. stostosto - 2/2/2000 5:20:43 PM I saw an internet rumour: The Russian Duma election was massively rigged. The source is David Johnson's Russia List, an emailed news service compiling news and commentary on Russia. It seems to be very good, and is used by journalists and other Russia watchers. I have subscribed to it for a couple of weeks now, and I am being swamped by 4-5 exceedingly long emails every day. But much of it is really interesting. (PE's Ryakan story has featured - but I do think that story had been rumoured in the media earlier). 6043. Candide - 2/2/2000 6:24:03 PM Profemeritus 6044. Candide - 2/2/2000 6:25:28 PM stostosto 6045. Candide - 2/2/2000 6:26:38 PM RustletPike 6046. stostosto - 2/2/2000 6:30:40 PM Candide: 6047. Candide - 2/2/2000 6:35:20 PM stostosto 6048. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:00:54 PM Candide 6049. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:01:56 PM In case I have offended delicate sensibilities, I hasten to add that even John Howard agreed with me, in fact all Australian political parties were united on the point. 6050. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:04:09 PM Correction: 6051. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:06:11 PM stostosto 6052. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:08:38 PM PS 6053. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:09:42 PM Candide 6054. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:12:13 PM Pauline Hanson. "I'm proud to be Ostrayn" 6055. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:16:05 PM Pauline Hanson, right. 6056. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:46:10 PM stostosto 6057. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:49:14 PM Die Zeit has a link to the FPÖ's policy on foreigners (in German). I must say it falls far, far short of Nazism. If anything, it looks milder than what we have from our local "right wing populists" here. Many of the measures are reasonable enough (like programs for better integration of legal immigrants/refugees in schools and kindergartens). Others are already implemented here in Denmark, and, I believe in many other countries (an immigration stop, shortening of asylum application process). There is no talk of throwing people out of the country. 6058. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:50:09 PM Stostosto 6059. Candide - 2/2/2000 7:55:36 PM stostosto 6060. stostosto - 2/2/2000 7:57:46 PM And now, good night, Candide. It's almost two o'fucking clock in the morning here. It's totally reckless of me, really. But it was nice talking to you. 6061. Candide - 2/2/2000 8:04:24 PM Good night Sto 6062. CalGal - 2/2/2000 10:36:29 PM Did I just read that a spawn was born to Banks? Was it mentioned here and I missed it? 6063. Candide - 2/2/2000 10:50:47 PM CalGal 6064. wonkers2 - 2/2/2000 11:32:52 PM Dantheman/Pelle, I assume you aren't saying that the EU must respect the results of whatever comes out of Austrian elections? Seems to me that EU democracy has a duty to expel Austria if it does not respect EU democratic norms. (Not suggesting the situation has gone that far, but in the event that the democracy in Austria were to self-destruct as a result of free elections, Austria would, in a sense be removing itself from the European community, would it not?) 6065. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 1:00:14 AM 6066. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 1:01:45 AM 6067. Candide - 2/3/2000 1:14:41 AM Sorry Rousseau. 6068. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 1:29:13 AM Rustler, 6069. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 1:32:50 AM 6071. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 1:42:21 AM 6072. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 1:51:34 AM wonkers2 6073. cmboyce - 2/3/2000 1:53:58 AM Rustler, what's on the obverse of all those. King George? 6074. alistairconnor - 2/3/2000 3:35:04 AM But my point is, his Nazi apologism isn't worse than that of Le Pen or Pat Buchanan 6075. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 3:38:46 AM But the French are so .... excitable. 6076. alistairconnor - 2/3/2000 3:46:31 AM Well, Pelle, France has been the victim of Nazism, and of indigenous fascism, within living memory. Elements of Austrian society were also, obviously, victims of Nazism, but inexplicably, it never got denazified. I've often found that Germans tend to overdo the guilt trip, but there's no doubt that the Austrians underdo it radically. 6077. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 3:49:49 AM Sure, Alistair. Just a gentle joke. 6078. stostosto - 2/3/2000 4:42:15 AM Here is the message I mentioned yesterday about the alleged forgery of Russian election results. I quote ut in full from Johnson's Russia List #4082, Feb 1, 2000. 6079. stostosto - 2/3/2000 4:43:16 AM cont
Marj
I found an Indian site which, as far as I can tell from a quick glance, makes a commendable effort at addressing India's economic situation and policy.
It's nice to see there are Indians who think seriously about these matters. But do such thoughts - horrible free market ideas as they are - carry any influence in the Indian debate? Do they have any political platform?
And where does the Srinivasan bugger stand on such issues as trade liberalisation?
Agricultural Trade Can Change the Poverty Ridden Face of Indian Countryside
They also take a good and fully deserved jab at the EU's horrible agricultrual policy. (Interesting, they call the EU "a country").
Unfortunately it doesn't read as entertainingly as Srinivasan, I am afraid.
My source is The Australian People: an encyclopedia of the nation, its people and their origins General editor-James Jupp
Published by Angus & Robertson 1988.
What the hell is the "Liberty Institute"? Such names arouse caution. The article has an almost theological air of certainty.
You should ask Australian farmers about US wheat and meat subsidies.
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) serves as the world's central intergovernmental forum for scientific and technical co-operation in the nuclear field, and as the international inspectorate for the application of nuclear safeguards and verification measures covering civilian nuclear programmes.
The IAEA was of course involved from the start in Iraq. Bliz took a rather soft stand then, which may be why he is now acceptable to China, France and Russia (and, implicitly, by Iraq).
Of course, US and UK may also wish for an exit from the spectacle that the sanctions regime has turned into, although they cannot say so openly.
I assume you're partly kidding in your remarks above. In fact, Srinivasan and a few others are an anomaly in India, most everyone is obsessed with economic liberalization and there is a broad consensus in favor of it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Srinivasan is a dyed-in-the-wool free-marketer, he's just got a parallel obsession with India's status in the world and like the vast majority of Indians in the USA is quite pissed off at the also-ran treatment our country gets in comparison to China despite being a democracy.
As for political platform, virtually every politician and party in India (except for parts of the CPI communists) is openly in favor of increased liberalization.
I have long been aware of Hans Blix and of the IAEA. The organisation that we, in the end, have to have - although a close study of its history will reveal that it often is as much a PR organisation as it is an organisation to police unruly behaviour. A bit like Medical Associations where the medicos protect members from scrutiny.
Let me tell you about another Swede, Dr Arne Sivgard Eklund. The US energy environmentalist and economist Amory Lovins, said during an interview on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation on 17 April 1991, that the Swedish nuclear-bomb program was continued for several years after the Swedish parliament had ordered it to stop. Lovins said that the man in charge of making the bomb program appear to be civilian activity was Dr Arne Sigvard Eklund who had repeatedly assured him years before that such concealment was impossible. Later Eklund was head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) from 1961-1981.
You may be interested in this anecdote about the Australian Richard Butler, who was in charge of the previous investigations in Iraq.
Before he reached this eminence he had been appointed as the Australian Ambassador for Peace to the United Nations.
I attended a meeting in the United Nations Association where Richard Butler swore that Australia was in no way involved in Weinberger/Teller's "Star Wars" operations. He could assure us on behalf of the Australian government that absolutely no part was being played in this lunacy by Australia.
I was able to produce an ordinary newspaper article with dates and quotes in which it said that without the Australian Rail-Gun invention no other part of the Star Wars plan was feasible.
Butler hummed and hawed but couldn't talk his way out of it.
I think he is a good man and this was merely typical of the inevitable adjustments of attitude that must overwhelm any such individual involved in similar work.
Yes, this was in the 1960's. What happened was that analysis and war games had shown that the possession of nuclear weapons would not increase our security in peacetime, nor would it increase our defensive capability in war. So it was decided not to deploy any. Polticians being what they are, this was of course presented as a moral decision, but it wasn't really. The military carried on their R&D to a point where it could easily be resumed should the need arise. There was consensus about all this, but when the secret leaked appropriate gestures of outrage had to be made.
Allow me to continue the outrage.
Not on this thread. Just in my heart and mind. When we no longer find such weapons outrageous I think we lose our right to have an opinion about anything.
"The contemporary violence is absolutely beyond comparison with the violence of the past; let noone be deceived by its "respectable" forms.
.......
"Nuclear violence requires the most severe analysis and fundamental reorientation of the development of civilisations, if such they are. The degradation of mankind, the rebirth of barbarity - aided and abetted by science. Nuclear violence, which destroys the principle of the collective and retains only the role of the state in which there is no room for humans as part of the eternal significance of being.
....
"When evil and violence are localised and have a concrete object, their execution demands passion, character, will. Total violence can do without a character. Bureaucrats do not kill in person. They sign murder documents. Thus the more insignificant the homunculus, the more fully it corresponds to the objectives of violence. That is why total violence is passionless. It brings about the atrophy of good and evil in a personality. There is a case to answer, but no defendant."
These weapons are there. They are not going to be uninvented. There may be a reduction in numbers but they will not be abolished. The MAD doctrine will remain a cornerstone of US and Russian strategy. China will strive to work its way up to parity.
Is it outrageous? Sure. Can anything be done? No. What can be done by peace-loving people is to work for conditions where such weapons don't need to be used.
This is where our different time zones become a problem. Our daily work routine (at home) is big breakfast - mere gesture for lunch - big dinner. The big breakfast is about an hour late and I am suffering from the consequent guilt and stress. Your post deserves a better answer than I am able to deliver.
I remember Alva Myrdal during our fateful encounter saying, with great bitterness, that she had come to accept the idea that nuclear weapons were here.
More anon. But not TOO much. Neither of us could stand it.
war games had shown that the possession of nuclear weapons would
not increase our security in peacetime, nor would it increase our
defensive capability in war. So it was decided not to deploy any.
Polticians being what they are, this was of course presented as a
moral decision, but it wasn't really. The military carried on their
R&D to a point where it could easily be resumed should the need
arise. There was consensus about all this, but when the secret
leaked appropriate gestures of outrage had to be made.
Consensus by whom? I don't think so. The politicians who ordered that it be stopped and who passed laws to bring this about were not part of this "consensus".
The point of Lovins's story was that a colleague os his (Eklund) had pooh-poohed the idea to his colleague, Lovins, that any such deception was possible, and at the same time was himself carrying out a monstrous deception.
This individual later became head of the organisation (for 20 years) that was supposed to prevent such deception. For me it clearly illustrates the predictably self-serving nature of the professionally involved. It could be cigarettes or anything else. It's human behaviour. In this case their white coats and doctorates are part of the bullshit. It's the nature of their merchandise that makes this more serious than other similar examples.
What can be done by peace-loving people is to work for conditions where such weapons don't need to be used.
And make it damned hard for countries to lay their hands on the where-with-all to make them in the first place. The acquisition of nuclear weapons by various countries has been traced and documented. Still the major powers that assisted them by supplying laboratories and technology, in exchange for remunerative contracts, try to cover up their own part in these operations. (And that's a huge reason to get Russia and Ukraine onto a more prosperous path - and I don't mean divided into the wealthy and the starving - but a decent prosperity for all of the people.) And for the countries with them to dismantle them under the benevolent eye of that great instrument for transparency the IAEA. There is no other organisation, but we must watch this one like a hawk.
marj:
You need contacts in India? I got em, every one you'll need to do business there. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. And I'll only ask for a miniscule portion of equity in return.
Sounds good. How about, instead of the equity, I agree to agree to everything you ever say in the International thread, and 50% of what you say on other threads?
Seriously, I am now in the process of writing up the full business plan with the aid of professionals, and then getting that plan into the hands of a couple of the 'big players' here in Israel, in the hope that they'll swallow me up whole. So you're on - but I doubt I'll turn to you with anything more concrete in the next few weeks (India is only vun pees in ze humungous empire I am bilting, ja!).
In any case, could you send your e-mail address to my e-mail address (gilronen@icqmail.com)?
I'll do it all (in India) for free. Promise. If you need me, I'm at marjoribanks@hotmail.com.
Italian culinary tips in Home and Garden
Pelle:
Be careful when you think about transmitting data over dial-up international connections. Sometimes, in particular when satellite transmission is involved, operators use compression techniques to save on bandwidth.
Does compression necessarily entail decreased quality on the receiving end?
Marj:
Indeed, the guy who wrote that article seems to possess a rare intelligence and perceptiveness. I'm halfway through part II.
OK Marj, thanks.
Look at #2985 in the de facto food thread.
I'm here if you need me. Good luck with the venture.
Reactions and feedback on the Kaplan article would be welcome, as you well know.
Marj:
Reactions and feedback on the Kaplan article would be welcome, as you well know.
Soon as I finish it, promise. He seems to be very perceptive, like I said. The part about the central bus station at Beit Shean, for example: the ugliness of it, and his explanation that everything is still new and growing here. I liked that. He doesn't seem out to prove anything, rather to observe and try to understand things - something I now realize is quite rare in journalists.
On another note altogether:
I sometimes say to people, when we are talking about certain morbid subjects like 'life' and 'death' and stuff like that, that there is no reason to fear death so much, since most of the people born to date never died. The truth is, I don't know if this is a true statement or not, but I'm almost positive at least 25% of the people born to date are still alive. Does anyone have an opinion, preferably backed with numbers?
Marj:
There's a lot to react to in the article. My overall criticism is that the guy seems to have an overly anthropological approach to things - an tendency I've noticed in people who know both the Arab and Israeli sides of the Mideast. The basic theme of his article, if you think about it, is something like - 'there is nothing new under the sun... what was once shall always be... nothing changes... and therefore there is nothing to fight about, my children'. I'm not sure that will work though, for the Mideast. And his vision of Tel Aviv as Tyre, etc. - as if the age of nuclear-tipped nationalism is somehow equivalent to the age of city-states - I find a bit weird.
>>>
However, I wholeheartedly agree with the Jews who say a new version of Jewish religion is about to be born.
I have answered you (voluminously) in the Slow Thread. Here..
The point of Lovins's story was that a colleague os his (Eklund) had [denied] that any such deception was possible, and at the same time was himself carrying out a monstrous deception.
This individual later became head of the organisation (for 20 years)
that was supposed to prevent such deception.
Maybe that was his main qualification for the post. He knew the tricks of the trade.
It is a bit amusing that on a basis of anecdotal evidence you attempt to teach me about the modern history of Sweden.
What in God's name makes you think that I'm trying to teach you the history of modern Sweden?
I was pointing out an ethical gap in the operation of an organisation intended to be the world's watchdog and safeguard over a technology, the effects of which extend far beyond Sweden. The fact that the individual in question happened to be a Swede is beside the point. I mentioned that he was a Swede --because he was.
You claimed there was a consensus to continue to a certain point. I argued that because the Swedish parliament had ordered the weapons production to cease it was obvious that no such consensus existed. Alva Mytdal stated at the meeting I mentioned that they wanted to totally and conclusively stop the production of nuclear weapons. Completely. A group of people wanted to continue to the point you mentioned, sure, but consensus means general or widespread agreement, and that obviously didn't exist.
I also mentioned some dodgy tricks from Richard Butler who is an Australian.
You continue to lecture me. On the other hand I should qualify "consensus" to "consensus among the foreign affairs and security establishment to continue the R&D to a point where current threads of inquiry would not have to be restarted in case of a new situation". The "establishment" included politicians from all parties except the communists. Furthermore, the act of parliament included some rubberband provisions that made it possible to continue without actually breaking the letter of the law. There has been a lot of discussion whether they were put there intentionally.
And what is the "ethical gap" you refer to?
What is the ethical gap?
It's called lying.
Look I don't have to live next door to the Russians and so I don't want to preach to you. The International Atomic Energy Agency is supposed to be our watchdog.
You seem to have made the necessary psychological adjustments to living with nuclear weapons. I haven't.
consensus among the foreign affairs and security
establishment to continue the R&D to a point where current threads
of inquiry would not have to be restarted in case of a new situation".
Ah the unelected. Sir Humphrey rides again. (Reference to "Yes Minister" which I think you know.)
The Namibians who live in the area are still quite unsettled. They have moved out into the bush, and what makes matters worse, they must move every day, never sleeping in the same place twice, because of NAMIBIAN soldiers. These Namibian Defense Force personnel find these Namibians in the bush and beat them up, assuming that they are in the bush aiding UNITA rebels. It is really a mixed up situation there.
The missionaries from Mbukushu can't go back yet. Because we have been blessed with heavy rains this year, the bush is quite thick. In other words, it is nearly impossible to see the UNITA rebels across the river. They are still coming over in raiding parties, and some are still believed to be hiding in various places on the Namibian side.
It seems that both the MPLA and the NDF are inept.
Does 'living in the bush' mean they have no food supply?
Your quote in Message # 5843 and your subsequent comment are intellectually dishonest. In the sentence after your quote I said: The "establishment" included politicians from all parties except the communists.. You chose to exclude that sentence in order to make a cheap point. I'm disappointed but not surprised.
That's not fair. I'm not having a battle with you. I know that you also mentioned the politicians. But surely once the parliamentary action was taken the non-political opinions were irrelevant?
By the way, as far as I know Alva Myrdal wasn't a communist was she? I met another Swedish woman, a member of parliament whose name I have forgotten - she was the daughter of Svante Arrhenius - she laughed when I told her the Myrdal story, and said "Of course. She was an fashioned socialist and she would say that".
No, I was meaning that if something is passed parliament (although you tell me with enough elastic escape routes to make it meaningless) then it seems that the voice of the people has spoken -albeit tremulously.
I don't want to offend you. I enjoy conversing with you and find your replies interesting.
The Alva Myrdal you met was an icon, the ambassador of Sweden, the Moral Superpower. No, she was not a communist, very far from it.
I thought so. I was in awe of her I assure you. She was TOTALLY opposed to anybody producing any nuclear weapons at all and entirely in favour of those in existence being destroyed. I heard her say so most forcefully.
I was at the meeting because I knew in advance that those were her views.
She did say "I have bitterly come to accept that nuclear weapons are with us and are a fact of life."
Dear Mr. Snodgrass-
Thank you for the frogs. I have some questions. 1)how does that one frog hold the fishingpole? 2)why is that one frog holding those pencil
like things?
I also have 4 frogs for pets.I like tree frogs the best.
And Sakonige, frogs go into hibernation in winter. Everybody knows that. It is touching you are in the business of "figuring out".
I'll reply in the Cafe (and why the new name?).
Frogs have to do with issues of ecology of all the nations of the world. They are not a pollution or a decadent drift in your thread. They are just a funny little distraction. Why don't you tell me where exactly the thousands of frogs in my yard go in the winter, since you know, and I've looked for them with some intent, and can't find them.
Sorry to contradict, but frogs do have important international implications. In Indonesia I visited a large French-owned frog leg processing plant. Farmers from the entire area would spend the whole night collecting frogs and delivering them to the processing plant. (It was suggested that this activity might help to reduce the human population growth rate).
The frog legs were mainly packed for shipment to France. When the ecologists got wind of what was going on, they protested to the Indonesian government, asking that the French be restrained from such massive frog collection. The reason: the rice weevil population, one of the natural frog foods, was growing rapidly in the area, threatening the per hectare rice yields. I understand the export of frog legs to France was curtailed as a result of the protests, but not entirely stopped. Employment considerations, on which I was working, were also taken into account.
Thanks for raising this important international issue!
Well I'm kind of toadying to Pelle since my last abrasive discussion.
I've just hunted out a frog risotto recipe (which I refuse to contemplate) just to reassure myself that the relationship exists. That's rice for you. Malaria, frogs and ducks.
My husband ate deep fried froglets in a restaurant in northern Italy once.
l found the spectacle distressing.
"Toadying."
Brilliant.
Brekekeke
The Greek connection and hence international.
I agree that frogs have played a role in international affairs. It was them, after all, who held Hitler off for five full minutes when he invaded their country. And how would Europe ever have been liberated without the daring feats of the frog resistance?
I just did a spot of lurking in TT international thread and I have come running back to the Mote with cries of "oxygen". The abusive, racist stereotyping is tragic.
Mote International, I salute you.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/Business/Inside_Business/2000-01/arkan300100.sht
That URL will take you to a fascinating story in "The Independent" about the link betweenthe murdered war-criminal Arkan and associates and a mine in England. The Italians call the mafia the"Octopus" and this is a good illustration of their reason.
Don't croak. You're needed here.
"Does 'living in the bush' mean they have no food supply?"
Basically, yes. The situation is quite bad. Of course, the Caprivians are used to being dirt poor. Many will try sneaking back to the towns for food and such, but that can be so dangerous. For many, their houses sit right on the river, and because the bush is so thick, they can't see the UNITA rebels at all. Even going back for a moment or two can be dangerous.
Of course, when I say "towns" that is probably misleading as well. Along the Caprivi Strip there really aren't towns per se, rather villages of sorts. It is an extremely rural place along the Strip. I find the UNITA problems to be distressing, but to actually have Namibian forces beating other Namibians because they believe them to be hiding UNITA rebels is really shocking. Unfortunately, though, because of the Caprivi secessionist problems from last year, the violation of certain human rights is common up there.
Button-wielding mob beats men in Kenya.
Joke aside, this kind of thing is very rare in Kenya. Both the talk in that rally and the fact that it was reported. Moi seems to be weakening in his old age.
I just noticed the Nairobi University student's name.
Heh heh.
sakonige
Unless your garden is a park it must have one of the highest frog-to area ratios in the world.
Frogs hibernate in water.
Your one word comment in 5872 was good-natured, clever and appropriate.
Unfortunately I got a 'file not found' message for the link in #5875.
There must be local memories, passions and resentments that are entirely outside any foreigner's comprehension. Can outsiders improve the situation do you think? Apart from medical assistance I mean.
The last message was to you. My apologies RustlerPike. I've just woken up.
In December I spent over a week in Nairobi and Kampala. I already mentioned here why I thought both cities were pits. Ask my wife, my first words off the plane when I returned to Namibia were, "I am so glad to be back in Windhoek."
As for Moi, I never heard one good comment about him while I was in Nairobi. The basic feeling I got was that the guy was totally inept. I asked why an 80+ guy still runs for president, when he could just retire and take it easy. I was told several times that it was because of other people, people whose positions depend on Moi, that he is "forced" to run.
I think it is sad to see Nairobi. One wonders what the place would be like if the country were run properly. I understand that the road between Nairobi and Mombasa, the most traveled road in the country due to tourism and industry, is completely worthless. You would think that at least that road they'd repair properly. The infrastructure of Kenya has been deteriorating for years.
On a personal note, I was asked by the leading evangelical institution not only in Kenya but in all of Africa if I would be willing to come and teach there for a year. I would teach in the Masters program of church history. I am still mulling it over, but am hesitant to leave Namibia.
"There must be local memories, passions and resentments that are entirely outside any foreigner's comprehension."
No question about it. We have had several Caprivian students at the seminary, and they have an attitude entirely different from the rest of Namibians. I would even say they have a "chip on their shoulder." They have been used to being entirely ignored, first under the Apartheid regime, and now supposedly under SWAPO rule. I say supposedly because SWAPO denies ignoring the Caprivi and in some respect I have to agree with SWAPO. For example, when we traveled to Victoria Falls in 1995, almost the entire road between Rundu and Katima Mulilo was dirt. That meant driving for 100s of kms on a bumpy dirt road. Now they have paved it almost entirely, calling it the "Caprivi Highway." That took a lot of money and meant work for Caprivians (the dirt road also meant two flat tires at once for us on the trip, but that's another story!).
There is a resentment that exists between Caprivians and the rest of Namibia.
"Can outsiders improve the situation do you think? Apart from medical assistance I mean."
I'm not sure by "situation" if you mean the one I just discussed or the whole Angolan affair. I'd say for both, though, foreigners can do little. Let's fact it, Angola has been a mess for a couple of decades now. And in the north of Namibia, both the American and UK embassies have issued warnings to their people, in fact gently *telling* them to stay out of the region. Personally, I have no desire to go up there and get shot. Anybody with a white face is a ready target, if you get what I mean.
I find the situation hard to even imagine. During an upsurge of Maori nationalism I was visiting New Zealand and walking along a Wanganui city footpath with my white haired mother who was a little under 5 feet tall. A large Maori youth pushed her roughly off the footpath and said "Get out of the way Whitey". That's the only example of reverse racism I've witnessed in my entire New Zealand experience.
My sympathies were with the Maoris and also, in that case, with my mother.
This letter was in todays "Sydney Morning Herald".
I hope this paste doesn't affect the Mote's layout.
Australia's dangerous secret role
Alexander Downer is reported as having said
that Australia would consider a request to
hand over classified intelligence material to an
Indonesian human rights inquiry investigating
war crimes in Timor (Herald, January 22).
Downer affirmed Australia had provided
intelligence to the UN. If we accept Downer at
his word, the Australian Government has
provided information to the UN and is prepared
to provide information to an Indonesian body
but not to the East Timorese or organisations
acting on their behalf, nor to Australian and
other reputable international organisations
wishing to investigate war crimes committed in
East Timor.
Downer should realise that through his
admission as to the existence of this material,
Australia is complicit in crimes against
humanity committed in East Timor by the TNI.
In order to resolve this, he must release the
information to competent legal authorities
following procedures which are open and
transparent, for the protection and satisfaction
of all involved.
and an Indonesian organisation is not the way
to go.
Information collected on human rights abuses
by government intelligence organisations
should not, in this century, be allowed to
remain in their hands to be used as bargaining
chips in achieving improved trade, diplomatic
and defence relations.
It was unwise for Downer to further appease
the Indonesian Government by visiting Jakarta
before these matters were resolved,
particularly given the fact that we now know
the Australian Government has information
relating to the authorised destruction of East
Timor by instruments of the Indonesian state.
Bruce Haigh,
January 27 Mudgee.
You probably have read this story in today's "Sydney Morning Herald" too.
Wiranto cited for bloodbath
By LINDSAY MURDOCH, Herald
Correspondent in Jakarta
A power struggle between Indonesia's civilian
government and armed forces is set to enter a
dangerous phase today with the release of a
report in Jakarta implicating several top
generals, including the former armed forces
chief, General Wiranto, in a wave of killings
and destruction in East Timor.
President Abdurrahman Wahid will ask
General Wiranto to step aside as Political and
Security Affairs Minister if, as expected, the
report by the National Commission on Human
Rights accuses him of knowing about planned
violence in East Timor and doing nothing to
stop it.
continued
supporters urged the Government at the
weekend not to force him out of the Cabinet,
apparently to avert a stand-off with Mr Wahid,
who is overseas.
One of his allies, former Home Affairs Minister
Mr Syarwan Hamid, declared the general would
not be pressured into resigning from the
Cabinet on the basis of the commission's
findings.
Indonesia's military has been put on high alert
amid persistent rumours of a coup and an
apparent campaign by forces opposed to Mr
Wahid to stir up religious and communal
violence across the archipelago.
Mr Wahid's Government is insisting that
people responsible for the East Timor carnage
should be put on trial in Indonesia.
continued
implicates up to 200 people and is believed to
name General Wiranto and other top generals,
including former military intelligence chief
Zacky Anwar Makarim, former East Timor
police chief Timbul Silaen, former East Timor
military commander Tono Suratman, and his
immediate superior based in Bali, Adam
Damiri, as well as operational chief, Syafrie
Syamsuddin.
The chairman of the inquiry, Mr Albert
Hasibuan, said on the eve of the report's
release that General Wiranto was "morally
responsible" for a campaign of terror and
destruction in East Timor last year. He said
General Wiranto and other top officers could
be charged with the crime of "omission".
continued
single out 20 to 30 people the commission
believes should be prosecuted.
"The Government has told us it will prosecute
everyone we implicate within three months of
our handing over of the report," Mr Hasibuan
said.
The Indonesian Government has launched a
scathing attack on a separate United Nations
inquiry, even before its findings have been
officially released.
The Foreign Minister, Mr Alwi Shihab, has told
the UN Secretary-General, Mr Kofi Annan, in a
letter that the UN inquiry's findings - which
blame the Indonesian Army for much of the
killing in East Timor - are "baseless and not
true".
The military has released its own report on the
East Timor destruction, which claims there is
no evidence showing the Indonesian military
organised and encouraged the violence.
However, the report concedes individual
members of the security forces may have
played a part.
The military report claimed only 79 people were
killed, although UN investigators have already
discovered more than 230 bodies.
I wrote the following response to the letter you posted above before seeing the follow-up article you posted. The SMH article makes it even more clear that Australia should support Gus Dur and the Human Rights Commission in any way it can. There is a power play in Indonesia right now, with Gus Dur, parliament, elements of the military (the Agus Wirahadikusuma camp) and the Indonesian people versus the old-line military leaders, led by Wiranto. The only way things will ever change for the better is if Gus Dur's side wins, and the Human Rights inquiry proceeds. The alternative is pretty awful.
My response to the letter:
The writer of the letter is, to put it bluntly, full of shit.
At the moment, there is one official ongoing investigation of human rights abuses in East Timor, and one potential one. The official one is the Indonesian government's Human Rights Commission's investigation. There is also the possibility of an international tribunal held by the UN.
In view of the fact that these are the two relevant investigations, it makes perfect sense for Downer to release information to these parties, rather than keep it under wraps.
[continued]
The writer of the letter obviously has no understanding about what either investigation is all about, or he wouldn't have said something as stupid as "the Australian Government has provided information to the UN and is prepared to provide information to an Indonesian body but not to the East Timorese or organisations acting on their behalf, nor to Australian and other reputable international organisations wishing to investigate war crimes committed in East Timor."
In fact, both investigations are acting on behalf of the East Timorese, as they have no ability to conduct an investigation of their own. And what bodies have more of a right to such information that the Indonesian Human Rights Commission (since the abuses were committed by Indonesians) or the UN?
The author is also obviously unaware of the changes which have occurred in Indonesia, and that the information provided by Australia is a potent weapon for Gus Dur to use in controlling the military so such abuses do not occur in the future. I'm sure you're aware that the Indonesian military is fighting any investigations into abuses in East Timor and does not want to take responsibility. Gus Dur, parliament and the Human Rights Commission are determined to get to the truth and punish those responsible. Australia should be applauded for helping them reach this goal.
IrvingSnodgrass
I agree with you about the letter. I should have said so when I posted it.
I posted it to show the workings of a small element within the core protest group. You probably knew that already.
I also read the lead story in today's "Jakarta Post".
They are all part of the mosaic. And so unfortunately are you, and to a much, much lesser extent, even I am, since Australia is now on the back of the tiger.
The Mote has speeded up again. It was one letter-per-second before.
I'll try and get a letter into the 'Herald' more or less saying what you have said.
It's not just the Mote which is slow today here... the entire internet is crawling along at snail speed.
There's not much I can do about things here, except hope that Gus Dur and his team wins out (I wish he weren't overseas all the time).
It would be nice to see a letter in the SMH setting things straight. There seem to be altogether too many misinformed Australians. At least Downer knows what he's doing.
I've sent a letter to the "Sydney Morning Herald". I have quite a good success rate but I had one on a different topic in today, so that may work against me. I stole some of your words. I hope you won't sue me.
The Jakarta Post story on the UN report is disturbing, not for the results, which are no surprise to anyone, but because the report recommends an international tribunal.
Such a tribunal would undermine Gus Dur at home and hurt the work of the Human Rights Commission. Faced with an international tribunal, I guarantee that Indonesians would band together and fight it, and this would play directly into the hands of the military. In fact, it would be the only way to get popular support for the military.
I was under the impression that international tribunals were for situations where there was no one else around to bring perpetrators to justice. In view of the fact that Indonesia has an active and popular investigation going on, why would the UN do this? It undermines Gus Dur's government and sends a message that Indonesia's investigation either can't be trusted or means nothing to the world. I can't see it as anything but a slap in the face to Indonesia, at a time when Indonesia needs international support (which is why Gus Dur spends so much time overseas).
If the current power struggle goes the wrong way, and the creeps in the military gain control (which is still highly unlikely) and shut down the Indonesian investigation, then an international tribunal would be appropriate.
All I can offer is a free-thinker's prayer.
It's a shame that it is so easy to misuse and misrepresent Gus Dur's absences.
"Old King Kohl - and a very fine fiddle had he"
Here is a link to the SMH letters page including the letter you posted above (and at least one other interesting letter).
Here is the other article you posted from the SMH. You should learn how to do links... they're easy.
This article from the SMH, sheds a much more reassuring light on the UN report mentioned above in the Jakarta Post article.
I'm sure you'll find this of interest, from the Jakarta Post: Aussie upbeat to boost ties with RI.
There has just been an excellent radio (ABC) report saying more or less what you have said. There was an interview with one of the Human Rights spokesmen.
Immediately following, there was an interview with an East Timorese leader demanding an international inquiry.
The report of the UN's commission of inquiry, to be released in New York today, blames the Indonesian Army for much of the killing and says the Indonesians should not be trusted to prosecute those responsible.
Sections of the report read to the Herald at the weekend call for the establishment of a tribunal with judicial representation from Indonesia and East Timor, aimed at avoiding allegations of bias.
However, the UN Secretary-General, Mr Kofi Annan, does not endorse the tribunal in his letter accompanying the report. He leaves the decision to the UN General Assembly, Security Council and Human Rights Commission.
UN officials said it was now likely that the Security Council, which has the ultimate authority to set up a tribunal, would accede to Indonesia's demands and wait for the outcome of the Indonesian investigation.
In a BBC interview, Australia's Foreign Affairs Minister, Mr Downer, also said Indonesia should be given the opportunity to investigate the allegations before the UN stepped in.
I find it disturbing that the report said Indonesians can't be trusted to conduct an investigation. I feel it's not unlikely that there is more than a faint hint of racism there. It's not the first indictaion we've had that Mary Robinson is an idiot.
I find Downer's remarks very sensible. I find myself admiring the man more and more. It's a shame he can't speak proper English.
I'm moving towards Links. I tried last night but screwed up.
The articles you posted were certainly encouraging.
I can understand that an East Timorese, living in Australia, subjected to the Australian media, and with memories of terrible abuses in East Timor, would not trust the Indonesians to conduct an investigation.
But the reality is that a new Indonesia is trying to get established, and the human rights inquiry is an important part of this process. An international inquiry would lead to exactly the opposite results of what we are all hoping for, including the East Timorese.
I'm not sure that it's simple racism (although that's possible in there too). More a cynical view of where the ultimate power really lies. Most people nowadays believe in the power of money over the power of morality.
Mary Robinson is unlucky enough to be an official saint in her own lifetime. I have admired her. I don't know whether I'm just gullible and impressed by her manner. That's always possible.
But the reality is that a new Indonesia is trying to get established, and the human rights inquiry is an important part of this process. An international inquiry would lead to exactly the opposite results of what we are all hoping for, including the East Timorese.
Your point is well made and well understood.
More a cynical view of where the ultimate power really lies. Most people nowadays believe in the power of money over the power of morality.
It's more than just cynical to use this excuse to dismiss the Indonesian inquiry... it's harmful to the ultimate objective of seeing justice done. I can't rule out the people with power and money winning in the end here, but it's up to the people of Indonesia to fight it, and the UN report is no help. Right now, the right people are in power, and they deserve support, not distrust. I know you know this... I'm just blowing steam.
Wrt Mary Robinson, I've read some pretty scathing reviews of her performance. And she definitely has a talent for saying the wrong thing at the worst possible time.
I've just returned briefly after some hours away.
Downer's English! Should I feel gently got at?
Mary Robinson is greatly loved in Ireland and is considered to be something of a female Mandela. Her wisdom may well become platitudinous if she over-extends or to believe her own publicity.
There has just been a prolonged discussion on ABC radio about the developments in Russia. The participants were Christopher Andrews of Cambridge and Robert Service of Oxford, as well as the very likeable interviewer, Phillip Adams. They discussed the KGB influence over the last decade, Putin, Yeltsin and the Caucasus, in particular Chechnya. I wish such programs were broadcast by the ABC to Indonesia, simply to show the elasticity of thought that does take place in certain levels of Australian life. There was a huge outcry when this shallow federal government closed down the main transmitter to your part of the world. This government has a savage hatred of the ABC.
Downer's English! Should I feel gently got at?
Took you long enough to catch that!
As for Mary Robinson --she may be the right person for Ireland, but she is in way over her head when she tries to grasp international affairs. Her pronouncements on East Timor have indicated a complete lack of understanding of the situation, which is scary because her position makes certain that her views receive wide dissemination. I have read bistering attacks on her in the Australian, British, and even Irish press.
That list has been circulating around the internet for a few years.
If all the items are as inaccurate as the one about Indonesia, it is complete nonsense. There is no such law in Indonesia. In fact, the death penalty is only on the books for treason, and there hasn't been a death sentence carried out in many years.
Some of the items are easily proven wrong ("Guam law" -- Guam is part of the USA... do you really think there is a law there forbidding virgins to marry?). Others are simply absurd.
I seriously doubt if a single law on the list is real.
If masturbation (Known here as "playing with soap") were a capital offense in Indonesia, it would solve Indonesia's population problems.
Not only that, but the death penalty in Indonesia has never involved decapitation. Like many third-world nations (for some odd reason), the firing squad is favored.
Pelle:
Why move it? It is relevant to international issues.
Or maybe the swords aren't sharp enough and several hacks are required.
I don't see what's wrong with showing the truth about inaccurate e-mails which malign the international community.
But you're the host (or half of the host, anyway). As Niner well knows, some hosts around here do things like arbitrarily deleting 100 posts. It's the lack of accountability, you know.
I think it's a combination of decapitations being too bloody and the high cost of gas chambers, electric chairs and other high-tech methods. When you only have one execution in 15 years, those things just aren't cost-effective.
I just had a gut feeling that it could harm us in some way. Pure instinct at work.
I didn't see the banished post but would like to say: it's strange that the USA is almost overwhelmingly in favour of the death penalty, yet goes around preaching about human rights.
We simple villagers find that idea difficult.
Go to #5910 to find a link to the post I moved. It is not what you think.
Go here to get an alternative view of some people around here. Note that some links open in a new window. But I think the site is too frivolous for a serious lady.
In my local park, every morning one has to thread one's way through elderly Chinese persons in various unlikely postures and apparently in a deep trance. They seem very healthy and I suspect that they may be onto something.
The Chinese old guard should just subsume the movement and convince people that the party supports meditation and slow movements.
End of inquisition.
I wish it were that easy. The problem IMHO is that the Chinese Communist Party believes there should be no other organization with millions of members, no matter how benign their goals and acts. This doesn't speak well for the hope that capitalism would turn China into a democracy.
Bless yer heart, I'm no "serious lady". I'm a "flighty floozy".
Fray! Wonderful. Is there more? Did I miss your profile?
Well, believeing that capitalism will turn anything into a democracy is in the realms of religion for starters.
True. The Chinese leaders don't like undirected aggregations.
It meets my definition, but it is highly commonplace among some groups, such as the editorial writers of the Economist.
Life has cast quite a few leader writers in my path. Do NOT be impressed. They are the paid priests of their masters. Performing monkeys. Sure some ofthem coincidentally also believe what they write but they know what pays the wine bill.
My reply will be in the Café shortly.
I suggest that you write a letter to the "Sydney Morning Herald" yourself. I had quite a few letters in the "Jakarta Post" at the height of the trouble. I think it's good when someone from the country in the spot light communicates with those who may be misinformed.
"Letters to The Sydney Morning Herald
Snail: GPO Box 3771 Sydney 2001
Fax: 61 2 9282 3492
Email: letters@smh.fairfax.com.au "
I have since realised that that was a very dumb suggestion. Mine I mean.
Candide:
This should lead to the button-wielding mob. 
Mr Ayub Kamau holding his two wives, Miriam Wangui (right) and Zippora Waithira (left) who he wedded at the Kenya Foundation of the Prophet Church, Racecourse Estate in Nakuru town on Saturday. The wedding has received mixed reactions (Miriam and Zippora also seem less than enthused, although Ayub does have a "wait till we try the 696 position" glint in his eye - RP).
I prefer to keep a low profile here, as you probably have guessed.
By the way, judging by the guys name and white turban, he is a member of a Kikuyu wakorino sect. They can best be described (before I've had my second coffee anyways) as a grassroots fundamentalist purist charismatic church.
(There's another word I'm looking for but can't remember, that describes this kind of church).
Is "Ayub" a Christian name in Kenya? It is the Islamic form of the Biblical name "Job."
Nairobi University student activist Karl Marx said...
No no - I can't believe it! AND a button-wielding mob.
When I was at primary (grade) school, there was a girl called Lenny Bolshevik.
Poor poor Kenya. I don't see much hope in any of that. I can remember when many of the now discredited leaders were idealistic rebels.
The WEDDING.
When my husband was a young international-desk sub-editor he came home with a court report from an African newspaper. It was a rape case and the headline read "HE LIKED IT BUT SHE DIDN'T"
I hope that wasn't too off thread topic.
Of course! I thought of it too late. Triple Klutz moi.
Well, in Kenya's case, "l'etat c'est Moi" is all too true!
Irv:
Is "Ayub" a Christian name in Kenya? It is the Islamic form of the Biblical name "Job."
Yes, it's one and same name. Why the Arabic form? Perhaps because of Swahili influence, or because Job is known as Ayubu in Kikuyu. Or perhaps the guy's father was unemployed and 'job' was just too painful a word?
hahaha
Do other Biblical names take Arabic forms in Kikuyu or Swahili?
Do you find people named Daud, Nuh, Musa, Suleiman, Yusuf, Yakub, Yahya, or Isak? (David, Noah, Moses, Solomon, Joseph, Jacob, John, and Isaac, for the unititiated.)
Everytime that I now see the word 'Kikuyu' I become thirsty because you said that the language sounds like a running brook.
bobkat:
I doubt that Zippy is an older (i.e. earlier) wife, for the simple reason that that would never have become a news item (there was a guy not far from where my wife's family lived who had seven wives). They both seem kind of depressed to me. I don't know the whole story though.
Irv:
unititiated?
>>>
Those unfamiliar with Arabic names. It's a figure of speech.
More seriously:
I've heard the forms Daudi and Musa, though I'm pretty sure that was in a Kikuyu-biblical context (i.e. - a Kikuyu person speaking about the biblical figures). With names, the Christian-English form is much more common. It's a lot like the 19th century (and earlier) USA in that sense: there are a lot of Amoses, Jehosaphats, Heshbons, and other exceedingly weird names (to the unititiated that is ;-)) going around.
I really think Ayub may have been preferred because Job sounds so - well - employment oriented.
Look again, Irv. 
I got a chuckle out of this one.
You wrote uni tit iated.
Are you saying Kikuyus avoid employment-oriented situations?
Are you saying Kikuyus avoid employment-oriented situations?
No - I'm saying the name sounds funny in its English double-meaning form.
There was a time when all native Kenyans avoided employment-type situations though. This is how they got stuck with the Indian merchant caste, that was initially brought over to help the British build their railways (the Africans wouldn't work for money).
The Indians to Kenya are not completely unlike what the Jews must have been to certain medieval European societies.
Indeed it does. How many English speakers named Job have you met?
The comparison between the East African Indians and the Jews of Medieval Europe is quite apt.
Yeah. I'm glad we never opted for the Uganda plan. We would have been on the totally wrong end of everything, historically. As it is, Israelis are quite popular in Kenya, where we are known as 'Israelites'. Kenyans know us from the bible and are familiar with our modern history. Everything between Jesus and Entebbe is somehow less clearly defined, I think, in the Kenyan Christian psyche.
PS, Kuligin:
Moi is in his 70's, I believe, not his 80's. And I doubt very nuch he'll ever retire willingly. He's not that type.
I've seen that type (that's an understatement). You have to force them out of office. What's a nuch? Sounds vaguely Yiddish.
Nuch is Yiddish, but it's not meant for the unititiated. Sorry.
I've just spoken about the Indonesian tribunal on a National ABC radio forum. Arek? Budiman agreed with me. A good many public servants and other speakers agreed with me, and then Shirley Shackleton, widow of an Australian journalist killed in the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, rang up and called me "That woman who is an apologist". I can't reply until Friday so I'm left, once again, with the sign of the devil on my forehead.
btw Irv - where is Psocko, that amiably irascible baboon?
Irv, you may be a woman, but you certainly aren't an apologist.
I stressed that the most desired outcome was an open, democratic, stable Indonesia and that should be kept in mind as the point at which to aim. 
1000 mils to whoever recognizes this guy. Hint: he's under pressure to resign.
Whoa - Candide is Shackleton?
Good grief. Some people will never figure out that countries can and do change for the better.
I hope you can keep giving them the truth. Apologist, sheesh. I've been called an apologist myself, simply because I care about what happens here. I have never seen the benefit of condemning any nation for the actions of a few.
It's Arief Budiman. He's a fine person.
Rustler:
5964 - huh?
I haven't had any news from Socko for a while... I owe him an e-mail. I've stopped sending e-mails for the most part, because I write about 50 a day for my work, and I get burned out.
Thanks. I needed that.
Irv, Candide:
Sorry - I misread 5962, thinking it was Irv's post. Then I thought Candide must be Shackleton, replying to you.
Can I just go home now? I was doing so well until now.
Thanks for the explanation. I was starting to hallucinate.
hahaha
That's right Pellestein.
And these are the guys from the Palmakh special forces pilot course. This is the site I'm translating.
In the old place the hyperlinks were not active in preview mode. In the Mote they are, i.e. you can actually check that they work before you post. Many people don't know that. No criticism implied.
Sto has not been heard from for a while. I think he is about 250 km north-west of me hurling himself down the snow-clad slopes.
Pellestein:
Yes, I usually try to make sure the linx work. I still can't figure out why the first link didn't work. All I changed in the second one was take the l off of 'html'. You didn't even do that- and yet your link works! So where's the difference? And how come when I tried to link to the picture with an 'img src' thing it didn't work either?
In fact you had .htmly at the end. I removed the 'y'. I think browsers automatically look for FileName.html if they don't find FileName.htm.
Ah, musta been the italics I put in the hypertext. This is not my afternoon.
Nope, no 'y' Pelle. I checked 'source'.
OK, I'm off to the supermarket, where the damage I can do today is more limited, geographically.
Straight copy from the source:
http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/level/Hebrew/1.1.4.2.7.htmlý
Maybe that last character (which is not a 'y' proper) doesn't show up on your monitor? Maybe it represents some inadvertant key combination?
I don't see that 'y'.
However, now that I changed my font from Hebrew to Western, I do. It's a y with a little thingamajig.
To my astonishment no one seems to have commented on the EU action against Austria, which is not really an action and is not really EU neither, but nevertheless is a clear attempt to meddle in internal Austrian affairs by the heads of state of the other 14 member states.
My comment: It is a gross mistake. Instead of bullying Austrians, they should be reacting to what it is that is wrong about Haider. What is wrong with them? Don't they have the ability to speak their heart? Must they act as strong men?
The Austrian reaction is predictable: Haider's support is on the rise. Like the motto went when Waldheim was the scapegoat: "Wir Österreicher wählen wen wir wollen!"
Here, I bet you that anti-EU feelings, always present in the Danish political debate, will surge. The message that it does send: The EU runs over small countries who don't behave. Bullies! Let's get out.
I honestly can't fathom how such a thing came about.
I had a brief peep into TT and it was hell in there. They're talking about Austria all right. I'm not sure that decency can be maintained during such a topic. There was a harsh intervention from a viking not unknown in these parts. Others attempted to turn the discussion to matters culinary.
I tiptoed away and hoped that tomorrow was another day.
I must admit I have been lazy and not found out exactly what the EU structure is. How much they form collective decisions and how much autonomy each member-country has. If a majority are outraged by the political direction of another state they have an obligation to make their displeasure clearly heard I would have thought. After all, European history is breathing down their necks. It's all a bit too close for comfort.
I have a friend whose Viennese Jewish father was in a concentration camp before being released because his German mother's (wife's) family were powerful Nazi sympathisers. My friend likes Germany because they have faced their past, but he hates Austria because they haven't. That seems to be the nub of present European sesitivities.
BTW, Irv, the last paragraphs speak of the evident inefficacy of the courts. Is this corruption? Bureaucratic confusion and sloth? Are the judges all Suharto appointees? All of the above? Can Gus Dur fire them and appoint his own? And lastly, can Wiranto be properly examined by these courts?
If he were Japanese, he'd ought to commit suppaku, eh? [Is that the word?]
There is a lot of criticism here of Gus Dur's travels, but I think he knows what he's doing. For one thing, the foreign support he has been lining up has been an effective force (the recent UN decision is one example). Secondly, he can wait till the worst part of the issue blows over and then act when the wind has been taken out of Wiranto's sails.
Wiranto's lawyer, Adnan Buyung Nasution, strangely enough, has long been one of Indonesia's leading human rights activists, and was a high-profile opposition leder during the Suharto years.
As for the Indonesian courts, yes, they have traditionally been useless. But the implied criticism in the article is a bit misleading. Under Habibie, the investigations of Suharto and his cronies were a farce, and it was no surprise to anyone that no indictments were handed down.
Under both Suharto and Habibie, judges who spoke out against the system were immediately fired. This led to judges who wanted to keep their jobs playing the game, and the best judges leaving.
The legal system is undergoing reform right now. Gus Dur has only been in power for 100 days, but there are hundreds of anti-corruption and human rights cases making their way through the courts. Wiranto will have his day in court, and he will face a real trial.
On ABC radio today I heard Wahid say how much he respected Wiranto as a man. That will play badly in some quarters whatever his motives.
I might add that the current Minister of Justice, Marzuki Darusman, is committed to reforming the legal system and rooting out corruption. Under the current leadership, any judge trying to do things the old way or being involved in corruption would be removed pretty quickly.
The changes in the legal system, as in many areas of society, bode well for the futur. But we have to wait and see if the system can truly be changed. There is certainly a fear that money is still the only power here.
Plus, the Gus Dur-Wiranto power play remains to be resolved. But things don't look good for Wiranto right now. The media is mercilessly shredding him, and popular opinion is entirely against him.
That is the Indonesian way. One doesn't bad-mouth one's enemies. Gus Dur is expected to say how much he respects Wiranto, even while he gives him the pink slip.
Alas, I don't think the East Timorese are going to make allowances for the Indonesian way.
Shirley Shackleton certainly won't.
Gawd, it's difficult.
I wonder why Kissinger is still free so who am I to question these things?
Indonesians don't expect others to do things the Indonesian way. But Gus Dur must do things in a culturally appropriate way. He's making a lot of changes here, because he knows how to do it in a way which will be received.
I do understand what you say. I'm not sure other potentially difficult players are going to be so understanding.
I've sent a protest fax to the ABC program. If they don't read it out on Friday I'll hit the roof. I managed to getback on line just as Jose ramos Horta called so naturally he took precedence. Oddly enough he basically said what I had said except he vehemently held out for a strong punishment for Wiranto. He said that if GusDur's government was to have any international credibility it was vital that Wiranto was severely punished and not just dismissed and raped over the knuckles.
Ramos Horta.
I agree with Horta (which doesn't happen too often). Wiranto has to get nailed (if he's proven guilty, of course) to send a message to the military, the Indonesian people, and the international community.
Sure, maybe they should "rape him over the knuckles." It sounds like a tactic used by the military.
[BTW, I'm having a dreadful time with this computer tonight, so if I suddenly disappear from all threads, it won't be because I have lost interest or anything, just I finally tired of rebooting and took to my bed, where I should have been for an hour, anyway.]
Who is Ramos Horta?
As the situation is now when the Social Democrats have ruled themselves out, Haidar must be let in or there will be new elections. If so, the Austrians may well give EU the big finger by making the Peoples Party into the largest one. And then the shit will really hit the fan.
The EU governments have acted unwisely in my opinion.
Horta is an academic from East Timor and has been sounding the independence bugle around the world since the Portuguese left a vacuum and Jakarta filled it. He is a fire brand, and I used to secretly consider him to be a war-monger. He's straight out of a Graham Green novel.
Xanana Gusmão has said he doesn't want to be president. He said that he considered it important that no one should think they had a right to high office. I felt that he was sending a message to Ramos Horta.
Irv, what does Lorosae mean? (Not "east", I hope.)
I like your characterization of Horta.
I know Xanana has been dragging his feet, but he's also given some indications that he would serve. IMHO, he would be the best man for Timor Lorosae, and I certainly hope he is the first president. Horta is not terribly popular in East Timor, for various reasons. The other very popular figure, Belo, could not serve as president for obvious reasons.
CM:
Timor Lorosae means "East Timor" in the Tetun language, which will be the official tongue of the new nation. The nation is also known as "Timor Leste," which means the same thing in Portuguese. You can probably say goodbye to the name "Timor Timur," for although Indonesian will by necessity be a lingua franca there until education in Portuguese or Tetun can be established (Portuguese is spoken by about 5% of the people, Tetun, which has never been a written language, is spoken by about 30% of the people), the name has too many bad connotations.
He's always badly in need of a shave. His eyes burn like black coals through fine-rimmed glasses that sit low on his nose. He has a handsome head of hair and altogether would be impossible to better visually if they ever make a film about the recent events. He's short, but basically he's Portuguese so that's to be expected.
The island was named "Timor" centuries ago, since it was the Easternmost island in the archipelago called the "Lesser Sundas." (The "o" in Malay final syllables evolved into the "u" in Modern Indonesian.) So, yes, "Timor Timur" means "East Timor" and consists of cognate words ultimately from the same language. It was commonly referred to as "TimTim" during the Indonesian occupation (another term you won't be hearing anymore).
consists of cognate words ultimately from the same language.
Amazing. What delightful webs we weave.
(Not that Indonesian's patronizing "Tim Tim" qualifies as delightful, but you know what I mean, I trust.)
Yes, it's a complete break with former practice to threaten sanctions against a country over a possible coalition government. And I would say that the EU has no business at all interfering. The EU has rules for member countries' democratic credentials, but Austria hasn't broken any of these. In fact, the problem is the Austrians have given Haider (that disgusting, revolting dirtbag) a 27% backing in a free and fair democratic election. In any country with a parliamentary make-up like the Austrian one, it would be hard to sidestep such a party. Yet, the EU heads of state in effect urges Austria to disregard the election outcome. They may disagree politically with Haider and, by extension, with the Austrian electorate, but Austria and Haider clearly have followed the democratic rules of the game.
Candide:
Despite its name, and trappings like the European Parliament and the European Court, the EU is not a Union in the sense that the USA is a union (or other federal countries like Germany, Canada or Russia). The supreme power rests firmly with the European Council consisting of the heads of state of the 15 member countries. There is a fairly complicated formula for how much weight each member country carries in any votes that this council might take. In some areas contries have the right to veto, in others they can be overruled by a qualified majority. There is an ever-ongoing dogfight as to how much sovereignty to leave to the EU from member countries.
I suspect that one way to construe this weird episode is that the EU integrationists want to make a point of appearing like a union proper vis-a-vis one of its constituent parts. Of course, in countries wary of the idea of "ever closer union" (including Sweden, Denmark, the UK and -Austria), this will play to the advantage of anti-integrationists. It nakedly demonstrates the risk that a member country's democratic process can be overruled by the EU.
1) acknowledge the concerns
2) address them by appropriate measures
3) explain why the concerns aren't justified (given such measures)
4) expose xenophobic hysteria as such
Instead, the EU heads choose to manifestly confirm and strengthen the basic imagery of elitist establishment hectoring of little ordinary
people, arrogantly pooh-poohing their anxieties.
Formidably idiotic.
Pelle #6012: I agree (as should be evident).
Of course I have met many people from Europe who expressed the fears that you describe. I must say I would share them if I lived in Europe. I remember meeting some Danes who felt this way. It was strangely people from the extreme right and the extreme left - to use these silly but sometimes irreplaceable terms.
I have a sympathy for people whose pride is embodied in their way of life and who see everything they value being changed. It is an inevitable process but it still causes deep pain.
I haven't followed the EU-Austria thing as well as I should have. Is it known who took the initiative to this downgrading of relations?
Good thing the wife takes him. Otherwise, how would he get to the hospital in his condition?
This article from the IHT, which generally puts favourable spin on the EU initiative, has it that Chirac and Scröder were the motor in the initiative. (The time-honoured Franco-German axis at work again in EU matters).
Mr. Chirac, who was the first postwar French president to recognize crimes committed during the Nazi occupation of France by the Vichy regime as a responsibility of the French state, was widely described, along with Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, as the motor of the EU's warning. Mr. Chirac considered, according to his spokeswoman, Catherine Colonna, ''that there are principles on which no compromise is possible.''
A curiosity: According to a political debate last night on Danish TV, Danish PM Poul Nyrup Rasmussen was the last one to be told of the initiative, in effect being subjected to a fait-accompli situation with no real choice but to comply, lest Denmark look like a supporter of Haider, or, in the very least, an unsolidaric EU member.
(Poul Nyrup didn't participate in the debate himself, btw.)
Expect Austrian ambassadors to be expelled any moment now.
(Another curiosity: Most, if not all, EU countries maintained Chilean embassies during the Pinochet period...).
I'm almost ashamed of my ignorance here, but didn't Haidar insult Chirac over one thing or another?
Haider did exchange insults with Chirac in the weekend, but I hadn't discovered that either. The IHT piece says:
And in the most general sense, the European leaders demonstrated they would not allow Mr. Haider to exercise his political method of defamation-followed-by-half-hearted-excuse against the legitimizing background of the EU.
The Freedom Party leader had brought his routine to the community's door over the weekend by ridiculing the effectiveness of President Jacques Chirac of France and calling the Belgian government corrupt, before withdrawing the remarks, ''if anybody feels insulted.'' This came parallel to an interview in Der Spiegel magazine in which the Freedom Party leader said he wanted to couple discussions of restitution to World War slave laborers in Austria with negotiations with countries ''which held Austrians after the end of the war as prisoners of war in forced labor.''
It's apparently a proven Haider technique to insult people, and then backtrack.
To revisit a subject discussed in the old Political Ideas and which I also talked to Ace and somebody else in one of the twin threads: democratic states must have the ability to self-destruct otherwise they are not democracies. The question then is if its neighbours should just look on while it happens.
Having said that, I still think that EU's reaction was too much, too soon. Austrians may be less inoculated against fascism than the rest of Europe but I doubt they would give a free run.
It may even be a good thing to have Haider in the government for a while. He and his party are populists and such people tend to crumble when exposed to the realities of government.
Thanks for the information you dug out!
Given your description of him, perhaps you should exhorta him.
There's criticism in Israel of David Levy's announcement that Israel would be recalling its ambassador to Austria pursuant on Haider's appointment. I'm personally very pleased with the decision. 
Can someone tell me what the bag is called? A windbag doesn't sound right somehow.
Reminds of putting up a gentle reminder: what about the 1000 mills for recognizing Ezer?
I've usually heard it called a windsock.
The notice was a short one, submitted by the Johnson fellow himself. He apparently believes it could well be true, although Russia is notoriously ripe with all kinds of rumours. Well, who would really be surprised if it actually was true, though?.
I don't have the email here at home, I'll see if I can post tomorrow at the job. One of the significant reported errors reportedly concern the communists who were cheated in a big way. The official numbers gave them 24%, in reality they got 33%. The reformers and government-backing parties were over-reported. (That's how I recall the numbers, stay tuned...)
If true, it could conceivably develop into a poisonous situation. Russia is so bloody depressing.
Where is Pseuder now, by the way? In India?
hahaha
It's amusing that Chirac is the only European leader to whom I've dispatched insulting letters. You can guess what about.
Windsock is what they're called as Dantheman has already stated.
You and Haider are simply two of a kind.
If I was a lawyer I'd sue you for that.
I HOPE you were joking.
I said :"The Pacific Ocean is a food bowl and you are shitting in it. That is not polite monsieur."
I was joking. And I agree that Chirac shat.
Last rumour of the day, then I will run for bed:
The EU initiative against Haider was instigated by the Austrian president Thomas Klestil. He secretly called on the EU top leaders and asked them to do something that could preclude the hideous Haider. Klestil is strongly opposed to that idea.
The rumour emanated from - Denmark. Our PM Poul Nyrup Rasmussen briefed the Danish parliamentary committee in charge of EU matters on the issue. These meetings are closed, but apparently parts of the PM's briefing was leaked. Nyrup was reported as saying that the Austrian president had asked for the EU to take action.
Nyrup issued a press statement which didn't deny this. Likewise, Klestil issued a press statement that didn't deny this. (I believe it's called a "non-denial denial").
Haider is rejoicing. He swaggers about telling everybody who cares to listen that he knew all the time that his Austrian enemies were behind the scam, treacherously bringing the EU aggressively down on Austria, in a fashion only marginally short of an outright invasion. (Or something to that effect).
It would all be hugely comic if it wasn't so damn... ugly.
When these views were expressed politely by diplomatic means,Chirac sent down that worn-out media star of '68 Regis Debray (sp?) to explain their point of view. As I watched this faded star on TV I wondered what his earlier persona would have made of the new one.
Klestil is strongly opposed to the idea of Haider's party in government. Not, as it reads in my #6048, to the idea of precluding him. Which should be obvious from the rest of the post.
Our posts crossed.
What does the world do when things are more or less ticking along and then a mad dog comes into the room?
We had a "Haider" type figure here a while ago. They are like mushrooms.
If we are lucky they become artists. Intensity is relatively harmless and indeed an advantage in the arts.
If only Hitler had been admitted to the school for architecture.
That Aussie Haider type - was that that woman whatsername?
What do you mean by that "intensity" remark? Hysterical xenophobia, racism and bigotry is simply a reflection of excessive "intensity"?
Romanticism, a dangerous movement, distilled aspirations. I don't know where cause and effect start or finish.
I have known a lot of artists who could have become dangerous if released into 'normal' society.
Nationalism was always a driving force in European and antipodean romanticism.
Some are possibly somewhat harsh, but the "worst" seems to be a ten-year grace period for obtaining Austrian citizenship.
In fact, it seems the only things that makes Haider look worse than the standard right wing European xenophobic party are the facts that he is Austrian, he is a son of a former top Nazi, and he has said some favourable things about the Nazi period. But I must say wrt the latter, that I am not terribly impressed by what the media has been able to dig up. They are constantly running the same two (yes, two) statements by him: One where he praises the Nazi employment policy (which is taken as an endorsement of slave labour, but which on the face of it might just as well be a standard Keynesian economist's view), and one in a speech to a bunch of old SS Kameraden, in which he commends them for being men of character.
And I agree that that last one ought to make him grossly unpalatable even to Austrians.
But my point is, his Nazi apologism isn't worse than that of Le Pen or Pat Buchanan, and he doesn't in any way seem to be obsessed with rose-painting Hitler, or anything.
Just a petty little ordinary bigotted right wing xenophobe party leader, like so many others.
You should be in bed by now I think. I'm not a sadist.
I just wanted to say that great works of art were often exploited by xenophobic politicians. An ex-opera singer has to be aware of that one. The inspiration that gave confidence to the baser sort of xenophobia often had its seeds in great art. Like the sick rose (poem by William Blake.)
Your last post was very interesting and has the ring of truth.
Too many people have horrific associations with certain phrases. Who can blame them? Their lives have been scarified by the experiences associated with these phrases.
A German friend of mine who taught German says: "My language has been fouled by association."
Australia has a great many post-war Jewish survivors in its population.
And, please do tell us some good stuff about those potentially dangerous artists. We need you, now that the major is on duty.
'Night.
Verrrry interesting!
If so, congrats!
Last night my time Marjoribanks left a message on 'stories' that he was rushing his wife to hospital because her water had broken.
Pelle:
Wrt to the mils: a promise is a debt, as Kenyans are fond of saying (wonder who taught them that one?). I'll need your snailmail address for that. You have my e-mail.
Danthe: thanks for the windsock.
Candide: I'd thank you too but you called me Rustlet.
Actually the brain is not good today.
Sorry RustlerPike. (I typed Rustlet AGAIN!)
Just joking.
Pelle:
Btw, the correct spelling is 'mil'.
This is one mil: 
I will send you the equivalent of 1000 mils, in present-day Israeli coinage. I trust you weren't expecting something else?
Whoops. 
This is the pic. Click for full size.
Certainly, if Austria were to violate the basic tenets of the EU (democracy, human rights, etc.) it should be expelled. But it hasn't come to that and it's extremely unlikely that it will. In an earlier post I pointed to the fact that the Nazis came to power through democratic elections. But I don't think there are any parallels between Germany in the 1930's and Austria today.
Sto, what do you imagine would happen if a French coalition were proposed that included Le Pen?
There would be blood in the streets, that's what would happen.
I'm afraid "no worse that Le Pen" is... not very good.
" DJ: It has come to my attention from a usually very reliable and informed but confidential source that there may have been massive falsification of the Duma election results in December. This allegation deserves further investigation and for that reason I am passing on the information here. I cannot reveal the source but the issue deserves much more attention than it has received to date. This allegation is known to a number of well-known experts on Russia. For a variety of reasons, unfortunately, there has been no open discussion.
But it is simply too important to keep silent about. I can say that I have received information from other sources that both supports and contradicts the allegation. According to the source here are the official vs. the actual percentages of the vote of the major parties in the parliamentary election:
cont.
| Party | Official | Actual |
| Communists | 24% | 33% |
| Unity (Medved) | 23% | 14% |
| Fatherland/All-Russia | 12% | 21% |
| Union of Right Forces | 9% | 3.4% |
| Yabloko | 6% | 12% |
| Zhirinovsky bloc | 6% | 4.5% |
6080. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 4:50:41 AM
Sto
This strikes me as rather doubtful for two reasons:
1.The phrase "For a variety of reasons, unfortunately, there has been no open discussion."
2. The decimal points in the "actual" figures.
6081. stostosto - 2/3/2000 4:53:38 AM
alistair:
Point taken. But I think Haider is probably a lot less bad than Le Pen. Which is one reason so many Austrians have deemed him worthy of a vote.
And, considering the vote Le Pen gets in France, the Frenchmen don't seem to be excessively concerned about niceties such as calling Auschwitz a minor detail in WWII history.
Besides, there are demonstrations in Austria now, if not outright blood on the streets. The protesters are primarily aiming at the conservative ÖVP and its leader and designated Chancellor, Wolfgang Schüssel, who is blamed for making Haider appear respectable in order to gain power.
6082. stostosto - 2/3/2000 4:54:54 AM
Untoy.
6083. stostosto - 2/3/2000 4:55:11 AM
?
6084. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 4:57:48 AM
What is surprising is that Haider gets the influential departments of finance, interior, justice and defense. I would guess immigration is handled by interior or justice or both.
6085. stostosto - 2/3/2000 5:08:48 AM
Here is an assessment of Haider. Simon Wiesenthal: Haider stellt "keinerlei Gefahr" dar.
"The leader of the Austrian right wing populists, Jörg Haider, doesn't represent a danger for the democracy in Austria, according to the well-known "Nazi-hunter" Simon Wiesenthal. "I see no danger in him. I think he is overrated", Wiesenthal said on Tuesday on the Dutch state TV channel NOS. (...) Austria is an intelligent country, Wiesenthal added. A large majority of Haider voters are protes votes that can quickly disappear. Wiesenthal emphasised that Haider is no neo-Nazi. "He is a right-wing populist". "
(My translation).
6086. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 5:11:55 AM
cmboyce: 
and if you want more go to this place. I've bookmarked it myself.
6087. stostosto - 2/3/2000 5:12:03 AM
Pelle:
I have doubts about that Russian rumour as well, of course. As does the source himself (Johnson), obviously. But it is too juicy not to pass on ("You read it here first", you know).
6088. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 5:13:53 AM
Can someone delete Message # 6070? Thx.
6089. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 5:19:05 AM
A humorous way of saying "a long time ago", for my parents' generation, was to say "when the grush had a hole in it". A grush was 10 mils, I think. I think you have groschen in some places, don't you?
6090. stostosto - 2/3/2000 5:20:48 AM
Yes, Rustler. In Austria as a matter of fact.
6091. stostosto - 2/3/2000 5:23:41 AM
Rustler #6088: Done.
6092. stostosto - 2/3/2000 5:33:52 AM
alistair #6076:
I've often found that Germans tend to overdo the guilt trip, but there's no doubt that the Austrians underdo it radically.
I agree very much. The best thing one could hope for in this miserable affair is that the Austrians will finally face the issue.
They have ducked it on the pretext that they were the first victim of Hitler, hence didn't share in the responsibility. But masses of Austrians greeted the German Anschluss troops with enthusiasm, there was a stark overrepresentation of Austrians in the SS, and anti-semitism was always stronger in Austria than in Germany proper (possibly related to the much greater proportion of Jews in Austrian society).
Eichmann, Brunner, Kaltenbrunner - they were all Austrians (and Haider père, Robert Haider, belonged to the very same inner circle as these "men of character").
Needless to say, der Führer himself was Austrian.
6093. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 6:25:04 AM
The talk about coins reminds me of the Maria Theresia thaler. It went into circulation in the Habsburg lands in mid 18th century. Production ceased a hundred years later, but by then it had become a very popular means of payment within the Ottoman Empire so the Turks bought the machinery and continued production, I don't know for how long, but probably until Atatürk came along in the 1920's.
But it continued to be used within the former empire. In Yemen, it was the only legal tender until the beginning of the 1960's. When I was there in 1980-82, there were still mountain villagers who did not trust the "new money" but demanded payment in thalers for the qat leaves they sent down to Sana'a.
6094. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 7:31:58 AM
Sana'a, Yemen -- a spot of trouble in the eggshop. 
6095. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 8:36:49 AM
After weighing all the issues, my studied opinion on all this is that Haider and his people can suck my cock.
6096. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 8:38:50 AM
Fuck Haider, fuck Austria, and let's not forget who has nukes and who doesn't. A lot has changed in the past 60 years. Fuckheads.
6097. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 8:42:00 AM
And one more thing: Haider may have a suntan, but Barak can still gut and skin him in a one on one. Fucking dickhead Nazi-loving asshole pimp.
6098. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 8:47:29 AM
Not to mention Netanyahu, who can kill him with a single head-butt.
6099. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 8:55:34 AM
Rustler
Can your missiles reach Austria?
6100. stostosto - 2/3/2000 10:25:53 AM
Rustlerman
But most importantly: You can beat the shit out of them in football. Was it 5-0?
6101. Dantheman - 2/3/2000 11:47:12 AM
Not a good day on the International News front:
Northern Ireland talks at impasse
Tensions in the Gulf
6102. Candide - 2/3/2000 3:35:07 PM
A comment from the antipodes.
Haider's case has caused me to reflect. I was born and raised in a colony which was my very own real place because I knew no other place. My family lied to themselves and to me about why we were there and why it was our place and why I mustn't play with Maori children.
Then I went to England where everyone knew they were English and that they were extremely generous letting me in to share their life. There was much to appreciate in England, even though I knew that my ancestors had once had the same feeling of belonging there that the present English people had. I would pass other recognisable colonials in the streets- recognisable because of their skin- they failed to recognise me.
Old societies, no matter where, based on one single shared ethnic inheritance, are all likely to become unpleasant and extreme in their attitudes towards those who are different.
I then found myself in Australia where everyone has a story of displacement. There are too many stories for one story to dominate. My own family has its roots in the first English and Scottish settlers of these parts, but the other people have caught up and Australians are from everywhere. There is a lot wrong with Australia but this great good is why at heart I truly love this place.
6103. Candide - 2/3/2000 3:40:03 PM
Pelle
Great photograph. Did you take it?
I was in Aden for a day once. A small boy walked past me and gave me cheek in sound patterns. A descending scale: Nyanana nynana nynana nynana. Needle point rock mountains hovered over by eagles, and women in black without heads.
6104. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 3:45:30 PM
Pelle:
If our missiles can't, our planes sure can.
stosto:
Hey, that's right, I'd forgotten that. What a bunch of fucks. By the way, I read today that in an interview to tomorrow's Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest paper, Haider goes pinko-liberal, saying that the Holocaust was the biggest tragedy in the history of mankind or something mushy to that effect.
Truth be told - I've never liked Austria, but while it's true Vienna produced Hitler, it also produced Herzl, and Freud, and others. It was a cosmopolitan type of place that produced a lot of everything, I guess.
It's Germany I hate, and that's where my missiles are headed, if I ever get any missiles of my own. I seriously think the world will be much better off sans 60 million or so Jerries. And come to think of it, it would be a neat, 10 for one type of revenge.
If I had a spare missile after that, and if the nuclear cloud wasn't too heavy already (no need to kill too many innocent bystanders), I'd nuke Auschwitz. I'd throw a big one at Auschwitz, and make sure all the townspeople around it get a nice healthy dose of Jewish radiation. Fuck Oswieczim.
I know you guys think I'm crazy. But that's how I feel, and I think a Jew has to be crazy not to feel like that, deep down inside.
6105. Candide - 2/3/2000 3:57:51 PM
RustlerPike
Nobody anywhere has a right to tell you not to feel like that.
But....
Kids?
6106. PelleNilsson - 2/3/2000 4:02:43 PM
Candide
Yes, I took the photo.
Your Message # 6102 is well reasoned.
6107. Candide - 2/3/2000 4:12:55 PM
Pelle
Nice photo.
Thanks re #6102
6108. cmboyce - 2/3/2000 4:16:38 PM
Pelle, I like that story of the thalers. Our artifacts have lots of odd tales to tell.
Rustler, thanks for the link to the coins. Rather dull money, I must say. How come they don't have a British monarch? Palestine was at that time under British rule, wasn't it? Or is that League of Nations regalia? (Or is it some clerks idea of dignified-if-inferior symbols of sovereignty?)
6109. stostosto - 2/3/2000 4:41:16 PM
"I know you guys think I'm crazy."
I would, seriously, if you considered running for office on such a platform. Or even considered voting for a guy who did.
(There are 80 million people in Germany, btw).
6110. alistairconnor - 2/3/2000 6:12:55 PM
As to the question of how fascist Haider and co. really are:
Germanophones, check out their web site. The content in itself is fairly wishy-washy, but the links page says it all.
6111. alistairconnor - 2/3/2000 6:19:42 PM
In particular, the section "Und morgen die ganze Welt", which links to www.kkk.com, ("the crusaders of our time"), to an outfit called Stormfront (National Socialist Graphics Library), ("long standing friends of the FPO"), and so on.
6112. Candide - 2/3/2000 7:29:37 PM
AlistairConnor
An elderly Polish Jewish friend of mine who was in the Warsaw Ghetto, said of our local manifestation (Pauline Hanson)" the trick is to deny them the oxygen of publicity". The more fuss that the media makes etc the more powerful and successful will Haider's bunch become.
6113. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 9:49:34 PM
Candide:
Yeah, kids. Women. Babies. The whole fucking lot. At least I wouldn't starve them first like they did to ours. And I would be doing it to a nation that had a country, and an army.
cmboyce:
That could be an olive branch on the coins - albeit a curiously rigid one. Britain was given a mandate to rule/administer Palestine by the League of Nations but that didn't make it part of the British Empire, not officially anyways. So King George would have been totally out of place there.
sto:
Yeah, I know there are 80 million of them. I'd let 20 million live so people saw how merciful and forgiving I was. But I'd make sure they left Germany and never came back (England is a good place for them to go -they're related to the English and could melt into the British people real fast). Germany could make a great international park, once the radiation levels were safe again.
And, in case you haven't noticed, I'm not running for office. I'm just making a statement in the International thread of the Mote.
alistair:
I'm going to alert an Israeli journalist or two to that website, if you don't mind.
6114. sakonige - 2/3/2000 10:42:10 PM
Born in the year 2000.
6115. RustlerPike - 2/3/2000 10:44:37 PM
Well, I've started the rumor going among 30 or 40 Israelis, some of whom I know, some through ICQ (I looked for German speakers). Let's see what happens, if anything. Good work, alistairconnor.
6116. alistairconnor - 2/3/2000 10:45:44 PM
Go ahead, Russ. I was put onto it by someone on the French Greens mailing list.
(The NZ Greens got some bad press in the recent election campaign because our web site had a link to an "ecoterrorist" site - people who advocate putting sugar in bulldozers' petrol tanks to save trees - you know, real evil stuff.)
6117. Candide - 2/3/2000 11:54:22 PM
RustlerPike#6113
What can I say.
I hated them because of what they did.
I would hate anybody else who did the same thing.
6118. sakonige - 2/4/2000 12:15:22 AM
You can say you sympathize with his hatered?
6119. Candide - 2/4/2000 12:18:04 AM
Sakonige
No. With the agony that causes it.
6120. sakonige - 2/4/2000 12:27:22 AM
Candide,
RustlerPike said,
You said,
What agony caused you to say that in sympathy with him advocating genocide?
6121. Candide - 2/4/2000 12:39:43 AM
Sakonige
Why are you twisting my words?
Read me again I certainly IN NO WAY EVEN IMPLIED that I tolerated such horrors.
Candide #6117RustlerPike#6113
What can I say. I left out an essential question mark.
I hated them because of what they did.
Meaning I hated the Nazis because of what they did.
I would hate anybody else who did the same thing.
I would hate anybody, including Rustler if he did the same sort of thing.
Personally I found Rustler's words revoltingly abhorrent, but I am accustomed to hear such words from people whose immediate families were, within the living memories of many of them,exterminated and brutalised by "civilised" people. I hate stereotyping any whole race. That's what caused the holocaust in the first place.
I hate this discussion and will now leave it.
.
6122. sakonige - 2/4/2000 12:49:01 AM
::booga!::
6123. Candide - 2/4/2000 12:52:32 AM
Sakonige
I've always felt nervous when you say that.
6124. sakonige - 2/4/2000 1:02:34 AM
booga googa boo a ba!
6125. RustlerPike - 2/4/2000 2:18:51 AM
How does it feel to be righteous, sakonige? It's fun playing the holy wise man, isn't it?
6126. RustlerPike - 2/4/2000 2:33:35 AM
I saw a photograph, once, of a wall inside a structure in one of the concentration camps. It had the Hebrew word nekamah written on it in blood, supposedly by one of the inmates.
About a month ago, an Israeli paper ran a story about an old prayer book, a siddur, that had been found in some Polish village. The owner of the book had written inside it that he asked for nekamah - in Yiddish, nekummeh - for his wife and daughters' lives.
I feel for him, and his wife and daughters, as I do for my grandparents' families. I don't feel for the families of those who killed them. Sorry, all ye of pure and untarnished hearts. Judaism never accepted 'turn the other cheek'. We only did that when we had no choice.
By the way, alistair - the best link on the Hider site was the last one. Some excellent songs there, including "nigger nigger", "holocaust", and some Hitler speeches.
6127. stostosto - 2/4/2000 4:50:10 AM
alistairconnor
That link is genuinely, positively sickening. And I see no excuse whatsoever for the FPÖ for having things like that on their website. They deserve to be made outcast. And to think that 27% of the Austrians voted for such a stinking shitload!!!! Shame on them.
What I don't understand is how the media seems to have missed out on this. I assumed that they had been digging and digging for such juicy trivia, if for nothing else, then for the sensational value of it. And then, when all they came up with was 1½ 10 year old circumstantial endorsements of Nazism, I assumed there wasn't much else there.
Rustler: Good idea alerting journalists to it. I am considering the same move here in Denmark.
And, yes, I am aware that you aren't running for office. It was just the earnest Scandinavian in me who reared his pious head. I try to keep him down, but he pops out in unguarded moments.
Candy:
I hate stereotyping any whole race. That's what caused the holocaust in the first place.
I am with you.
Oh, and by the way: My grandparents were active housing political refugees from Germany in the 30s -Social Democrats. The Social Democratic Party was a big party even then, and it was brutally crushed by Hitler, the party members harrassed, intimidated, and persecuted. Not all Germans were Nazis. Nor were all Austrians.
6128. stostosto - 2/4/2000 4:52:14 AM
And as far as my math takes me, if 27% voted for Haider, 73% didn't.
6129. Candide - 2/4/2000 4:55:15 AM
stostosto
Not all Germans were Nazis. Nor were all Austrians.
Exactly. And must we go into an eternal circle of horror?
Nobody's children will be better off if we do. Nobody's.
6130. Candide - 2/4/2000 6:08:07 AM
I did give the local newspaper the URL for the FPÖ website. I think those facts should be known.
6131. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 7:22:23 AM
Candide:
Is your "local newspaper" the SMH? A quaint term for a major internationally-acclaimed paper.
I agree that it's good to get this url distributed to the media. It will be interesting to see what comes of it.
6132. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:25:55 AM
IrvingSnodgrass
The SMH no other.
I spoke to the international desk editor.
6133. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:32:49 AM
I've got to retire and try to sleep. It's very hot and I wish I was sure that the thing in the ceiling is a possum. I hope it doesn't pee on my computer.
6134. stostosto - 2/4/2000 7:45:45 AM
Candy, Irv, Rustler
I sent the link to two journalist friends of mine at major Danish newspapers. Both of them think it's a great story.
I am still incredulous that this hasn't come forward before. It's the official FPÖ website, dammit!
6135. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 8:36:23 AM
sto:
It is pretty amazing. Maybe international news reports will start mentioning that the story was first broken in the Mote by A. Connor.
candide:
I wish I was sure that the thing in the ceiling is a possum.
At least all I have in my ceiling are rats. But they sure are loud.
6136. hashke - 2/4/2000 9:55:42 AM
6133. Candide - 2/4/00 12:32:49 PM
I've got to retire and try to sleep. It's very hot and I wish I was sure that the thing in the ceiling is a possum
The thing in the ceiling is the man in yr poem, metastasized into yr attic.
6137. stostosto - 2/4/2000 10:21:50 AM
Attention!
The FPÖ site that alistairconnor linked is a fake. One of the journalists called me back to ask me if the site was really authentic, so I had a colleague check it out (at speednames.com). It turns out the URL domain is registered to a person in New York. The site (fpo.at) is apparently identical to the FPÖ's site (fpoe.at) apart from that infamous link page.
What a devilish scam!!!
Shoot.
What is even more embarassing is the fact that the story about the faked FPÖ site ran on Danish TV news last night, according to another colleague of mine.
6138. Indiana Jones - 2/4/2000 10:47:54 AM
Thanks stostosto for the correction. Kurt Vonnegut didn't deliver that commencement speech, either.
6139. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 11:22:01 AM
The internet makes hoaxes relatively easy to pull off. Thanks for digging for the truth, sto.
6140. Dusty - 2/4/2000 11:31:13 AM
I confess I haven't followed the Haider story closely, so I do not know his politics.
But I was surprised to hear news stories this morning talking about steps planned by other countries to ostracize Austria.
I'm curious how others react to this approach. Personally, I'm a fan of ostracism for reprehensible acts, but others here haven't shared my belief, so I am wondering how people feel about the actions in this instance.
In particular, is ostracism for perceived beliefs as opposed to actions, acceptable? (Or have actions occurred that I'm not aware of?)
6141. Dantheman - 2/4/2000 11:35:34 AM
Dusty,
So far there are no actions, only beliefs. I am strongly opposed to it.
In response to a point Pelle made some time ago, yes, Hitler was democratically elected. He immediately took steps to make sure he would never face another election, including banning other parties. If and when Haider and his lot do something in that direction, ostracism and sanctions are appropriate. Otherwise, democracy means accepting that other people's choices may be different than yours, but a freely made choice should be respected.
6142. stostosto - 2/4/2000 11:39:06 AM
Dusty,
scroll a bit upthread. Some of us have opined already for a couple of days, starting from Message # 5992.
6143. Dusty - 2/4/2000 11:42:44 AM
FYI
fpo.at
domain: fpo.at
descr: [organization]: tequilin
descr: [name]: Alan Lockwood
descr: [street address]: 54 South Elliott Place
descr: [postal code]: US-11217
descr: [city]: New York
descr: [country]: USA
admin-c: AL4170-RIPE
tech-c: JS9606-RIPE
zone-c: JS9605-RIPE
nserver: ns1.astro-space.com
nserver: ns2.astro-space.com
remarks: 216.15.158.130
remarks: 216.15.158.131
mnt-by: AT-DOM-MNT
changed: at-dom.admin@nic.at 19990920
source: RIPE
descr: [old-descr]: Die Freiheitlichen
descr: [old-descr]: Parlament
descr: [old-descr]: A-1017 Vienna
descr: [old-descr]: AUSTRIA
descr: [old-person]: Peter Nemenz
descr: [old-address]: Die Freiheitlichen
descr: [old-address]: Parlament, A-1017 Wien
descr: [old-phone]: +43 1 40110 5627
descr: [old-e-mail]: webmaster@fpoe.or.at
descr: [old-nic-hdl]: PN57-RIPE
admin-c: PN57-RIPE
tech-c: KL391-RIPE
zone-c: KL391-RIPE
nserver: ns1.via.at
nserver: ns2.via.at
remarks: 194.41.60.10
remarks: 194.41.60.16
notify: hostmaster@via.at
mnt-by: AT-DOM-MNT
changed: domain-admin@univie.ac.at 19980105
source: RIPE
6144. Dusty - 2/4/2000 11:44:13 AM
stostosto
Sorry, I read the last hundred or so messages, but I thought this was more recent news, so I didn't go back further.
6145. PincherMartin - 2/4/2000 12:30:56 PM
Irv, I'd be interested in reading your opinion on this article
6146. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 12:53:32 PM
Pincher:
The article underlines everything which bothers me about Malaysia. I used to have some feelings that a heavy-handed government might be best for Indonesia, but the events of the past three years have certainly changed my mind. Abdullah's comments are the classic justifications of those behind a repressive government, and mirror those I've heard over the years from Suharto, Lee, and various Chinese leaders.
Yes, a repressive government keeps the nation in line. But at what cost in terms of human rights? And what tensions build up below the surface, waiting to boil over? Indonesia's experience since Suharto's resignation has been very chaotic in many ways, but heady and exciting in other ways. It is a definite buzz to be living in a nation where people are exploring the boundaries of freedom, making their views heard for the first time, and (despite the bumps, which are obvious) generally pulling together to create a new nation and a new identity which is more meaningful than the old one.
A couple of Abdullah's statements in the article you linked are way off-base:
Abdullah Ahmad Badawi Feb. 3 defended Malaysia’s system of democracy, pointing out that the Western democracy pushed on Indonesia had led to “nothing short of a political cataclysm.”
Abdullah further chided the West for pushing its agenda in Indonesia...
What Abdullah can't (or won't) see is that Indonesia's new-found democracy was not pushed on it by the West in any way... quite the opposite. It has its roots in a strong nationalism, and is related to Sukarnoism, with it's "To hell with your aid" sentiments. Indonesia's burgeoning democracy has developed wholly from the grassroots, and as such, means a lot more to the people of Indonesia. Nobody pushed democracy on Indonesia... it's an absurd statement for those of us living here.
6147. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 12:53:53 PM
Pincher, could I ask you to make your links open in a separate window? It makes it easier to refer to the article while composing a reply. Thanks. And thanks for posting such interesting information so often. And congrats on your correction of Safire (see Mote Cafe, for those unfamiliar with it).
6148. PincherMartin - 2/4/2000 1:15:48 PM
Irv --
Pincher, could I ask you to make your links open in a separate window? It makes it easier to refer to the article while composing a reply. Thanks. And thanks for posting such interesting information so often. And congrats on your correction of Safire (see Mote Cafe, for those unfamiliar with it).
6149. PincherMartin - 2/4/2000 1:23:26 PM
Irv --
Of course, another important point is that Malaysia may be more worried about Indonesia succeeding with their democratic experiment than they are with its failure.
6150. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 1:27:45 PM
Pincher:
I still believe that democracy is a capstone to successful economic and social development rather than a method to get there
I'm not sure if there is any link at all. Based on my own experience living here, though, basic freedoms are a nice thing to have in society, and I don't want to give them back. I think many people here feel this way, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to put the genie back in the bottle.
As I've conceded before, the Suharto government did a lot of good for Indonesia in many ways (and the lasting effects are in the infrastructure and human resources). But there was a great deal of alienation, and the after-effects will be felt for a long time.
Gus Dur's government hasn't shown yet that they know what they're doing yet in terms of economic development, but the steps they have taken to reshape society have given people new hope for the future, and have allowed the government some breathing space to try and get things right.
In the news today... the government has announced that it may not have to pay back all its foreign debt, under a doctrine known as "Odious Debt," whereby debts accrued by a dictator or corrupt regime are not necessarily the burden of a succeeding government. Have you (or anyone else) ever heard of this doctrine, and is it legitimate?
6151. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/4/2000 1:29:04 PM
Pinch:
Of course, another important point is that Malaysia may be more worried about Indonesia succeeding with their democratic experiment than they are with its failure.
Excellent point. I'm sure they're scared shitless either way. And it's nice to think of the Malaysian government squirming.
6152. sakonige - 2/4/2000 2:07:38 PM
RustlerPike,
Message # 6126
I feel for him, and his wife and daughters, as I do for my grandparents' families. I don't feel for the families of those who killed them. Sorry, all ye of pure and untarnished hearts. Judaism never accepted 'turn the other cheek'. We only did that when we had no choice.
6153. stostosto - 2/4/2000 2:09:57 PM
sakonige
get a grip.
6154. RustlerPike - 2/4/2000 2:59:31 PM
sto:
How fucking embarrassing! I've already sent e-mails to 1,000 people and was feeling so smug and self-important! Now what do I do?
Sakonige:
Who are you? Where are you from? It's a bit rude calling me names like that, and insinuating mean things about my 'culture and religion' (we're a people, for your information) without even bothering to introduce ones' self. You just butted in out of nowhere with your righteous anonymous indignation.
Anyhow, this is not about a 'cultural and religious duty'. This is about history, and deep human emotions. Human emotions are not all on an individual level. Some are on a family level, others are on a national level. That is how things work, in my experience. These national-level human emotions include patriotism, and - sometimes - anger at another people, hatred of another people, and, in extreme cases, seeking revenge - if not actively, then as a thought of what one would like to do if one could. Maybe you don't have a people, and maybe you have no national feelings. Maybe you're Jesus Christ. I don't know.
Let's assume that the Germans were an unarmed, nonviolent minority group in Israel; that they had full citizenship, paid taxes, and served in the army. Now let's imagine Meir Kahane started blaming the Germans for the unemployment, wars etc., and mocking them for their fat women, their beer guzzling, their grossness and stupidity, their cockroach-like fanaticism for order, etc..
>>>
6155. RustlerPike - 2/4/2000 3:00:07 PM
>>>
Let's now pretend that Kahane was democratically elected prime minister, and that he created concentration camps in which German children were burned alive, pregnant German women's were bellies cut open, and medical experiments carried out on living human subjects. Let us pretend all this was done in the name of a Jewish master race. Lets imagine that all of the Germans from Israel's towns and cities were starved in ghettos, herded on cattle cars and taken to the camps, where they were gassed and cremated.
Let's now imagine that these Germans' descendants survived, and harbored secret fantasies of blowing Israel away - thoughts that were generally kept sealed and unuttered, but had a tendency to spring out into the open when Israelis elected Kahane sympathisers to their government again.
How hard to understand would those emotions be?
6156. Candide - 2/4/2000 3:10:26 PM
Hell.
It's 7:am on a Saturday morning. I can't talk to anyone at the Herald until Sunday evening.
What an embarrassment. It will teach me not to run off at the mouth.
"Oh yeah?".
6157. PelleNilsson - 2/4/2000 3:19:19 PM
The US has recalled its ambassador to Austria "for consultations".
6158. RustlerPike - 2/4/2000 3:27:49 PM
Hey wait -
Maybe we can talk the FPO into endorsing that fake links page? That would spare us Moties a lot of embarrassment.
Why would someone do that? Probably the fact that the fpo.at domain name was unregistered was too tempting.
A well executed hoax, that probably cost the guy $120.
6159. Candide - 2/4/2000 4:06:24 PM
Someone would do that to push buttons and make us react the way we reacted, and thus cause trouble.
Probably someone damaged by history in one way or another.
6160. Candide - 2/4/2000 4:10:56 PM
hashke
The thing in the ceiling is the fate that awaits me.
IrvingSnodgrass
A zoologist told me that every house in Sydney has a good population of rats, it's just that the residents are unaware of them. Since we had a lead blanket spread above our livingroom ceiling to exclude the sounds of the man through the wall, rats and possums have been finding life a bit harder.
This thing is certainly a brushtail possum. They have hands and lift tiles in orter to gain entrance. The're loved here where they are at home, but not as at home as this one seems to be.
6161. Candide - 2/4/2000 4:12:57 PM
I left a message on the SMH's international desk phone warning about the hoax.
6162. Dusty - 2/4/2000 4:21:06 PM
The likely perpetrator of the hoax, Alan Lockwood, lives in Brooklyn. I was hoping to find a telephone number, so someone could give him a piece of their mind, but I couldn't find one.
6163. Candide - 2/4/2000 4:26:50 PM
These monsters lurk, often organised, waiting for any opportunity. I once published a long letter (2 pages) in a monthly magazine that had a push-button word used in it and I was inundated with verbal filth. I've talked to many journalists who have had the same experience.
At its worst you get death threats as well.
6164. sakonige - 2/4/2000 4:29:35 PM
RustlerPike -
Message # 6154
Again you've posted that you feel justified in hating a whole "people" and wishing revenge on their innocent children. In other words, you are a remorselessly hateful racist.
Now I've called you a name.
6165. PelleNilsson - 2/4/2000 4:44:03 PM
Sakonige and Rustler
We are not going to have anything resembling a meltdown in this thread.
Take it to the Inferno.
Any further posts on the subject here will be deleted.
6166. sakonige - 2/4/2000 4:57:08 PM
PelleNilsson,
Will the offensive posts advocating the murder of Austrian children be deleted?
6168. jexster - 2/4/2000 5:20:22 PM
Why doesn't the EU respect the democratic processes of the Ostmark?
6169. janjon - 2/4/2000 5:32:43 PM
sidebar. I recall marjoribanks commenting yesterday morning that he was off to the hospital with his wife who was then sans water. I don't recall reading about the denouement. What happened?
6170. CalGal - 2/4/2000 5:34:35 PM
Jan--check Stories.
6171. janjon - 2/4/2000 5:37:57 PM
CalGal. Thanks. That is joyous news.
6172. PelleNilsson - 2/4/2000 5:42:40 PM
Sakonige
Posts published before I issued the warning will stand.
Your #6167 has been deleted. Don't try any fancy tricks.
On another note. Nest week BBC World Service will air a program about the Cherokees. I think it will be about funeral rights. If you are interested I could dig out more info. Is your e-mail address published in TT operational?
6173. sakonige - 2/4/2000 5:51:02 PM
PelleNilsson -
I won't post anything that might disturb the droning stupor of your thread.
6174. sakonige - 2/4/2000 5:55:42 PM
PelleNilsson,
The show you mention probably won't be available here, but there may be some information available about it on the internet.
I don't have a public email address right now.
6175. PelleNilsson - 2/4/2000 5:59:16 PM
Sakonige
BBC broadcasts on the Web. If I find out the details I will post it here.
6176. Candide - 2/4/2000 6:23:03 PM
PelleNilsson
I also think the International thread post of Rustler's advocating revenge genocide is too unacceptable to stand. I wouldn't mind if anything of mine that is related to it were to be removed to make things tidy.
A crime of passion is still a crime and scars the Mote.
6177. Candide - 2/4/2000 6:25:10 PM
Do you know, I thought I'd moved to the Inferno. I was interrupted and when I came back forgot that I hadn't transplanted. You can answer me on Inferno. I don't want to talk about it any more on this thread.
6178. stostosto - 2/4/2000 6:34:57 PM
Candy, sakonige, pelle
My opinion as a co-host is that we let it stand. If it "scars" anyone, it's Rustler himself. However, I take it as a personally motivated expression of despair, anger and frustration. And highly understandable at that. It's hardly easy to be measured in such a matter, and I think the man makes this point well in his #6154-5.
6179. sakonige - 2/4/2000 6:42:54 PM
stostosto -
You find the public expression of murderous hatred for an entire people "highly understandable"?
6180. Indiana Jones - 2/4/2000 6:45:14 PM
A thread labeled International should probably be less PC than most. As Gorbachev was fond of saying, "You cannot go into another man's house with your Bible."
6181. stostosto - 2/4/2000 6:48:01 PM
sakonige
No. And that's not what I said.
6182. sakonige - 2/4/2000 6:50:27 PM
stostosto -
What RustlerPike posted is straighforward racist hatred, and you are excusing it.
6183. stostosto - 2/4/2000 6:52:43 PM
sako
Blah blah blah.
6184. Candide - 2/4/2000 6:55:39 PM
stostosto
I've already posted an opinion similar to your own.
The Italians have a lovely word meaning to unload or vent one's emotional burden "sfogarsi". Rustler was doing that.
After I went to bed I tossed about wondering when it became acceptable to want to kill babies. Can't live with that. That's why I would have opposed the (I was going to say first -but history gives the lie to that ) last lot who followed that idea. It's not because of who they selectively killed, but the selective killing itself.
I have a dear Jewish friend, much older than me, a Polish Jewish woman who survived the Warsaw Ghetto. She was saved by a Polish policeman from the worst branch of the police who worked with the Nazis. He hid her with his family at risk to all their lives. Since then she has devoted her life to trying to put an end to the sort of collective feelings expressed by Rustler. She lived in Israel for a while but came on to Australia. She travels the world, attending meetings where people discuss this sort of thing. She is particularly offended by people who collectively dismiss Polish people.
She made sure that her own children grew up without that desire for revenge which she thinks of as a victory for the Nazis. She made sure the children knew the facts too. She studied psychology and animal and human behaviour and it is on that level that she addresses the "problem". Sorry for the fatuous word.
She and I share a distaste for tribalised thinking whether religious, political or any other.
6185. CalGal - 2/4/2000 6:55:50 PM
Where does RP propose revenge genocide? Surely you're not referring to 6154-55.
6186. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:01:03 PM
CalGal
I don't want to go into a semantic battle. I've said what I have to say.
6187. CalGal - 2/4/2000 7:05:44 PM
It's just that I'm surprised at a recommendation to move a post merely because you find the feelings expressed to be objectionable.
I'm not sure where we (speaking of the Mote collectively) would ever draw the line on *ist hate speech--assuming we would do so at all--but I don't see Pike's post as even approaching the line. He expresses feelings honestly, acknowledges them as completely subjective, and is not trying to disrupt but rather to explain.
I wish to be clear that I support Sto and Pelle's right to delete any post they want, but I will worry if any hosts begin to delete posts merely because they express an unpopular opinion.
6188. stostosto - 2/4/2000 7:07:18 PM
Candy
I like that lady. And I love that story. That Polish police guy was a true hero.
Have you read the Bertini Family by Ralph Giordano, or seen the German TV series based on it? It's about a Jewish family in Hamburg during Hitler (despite the Italian names). At one point they are saved by a local German police man who humiliates them for public consumption while simultaneously working determinedly to get them off the hook. (They stand accused of something they haven't done, but who will defend a bunch of Jews?) At no point does he show any sign of affection for them. Not even when alone with them. He just saves their lives.
A Schindler type story, only in small scale, and very intense.
6189. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:09:48 PM
CalGal
Try #6096 #6104 #6113
I've said I understood where the emotion came from.
6190. CalGal - 2/4/2000 7:09:59 PM
But you know, I would not be surprised if the gentle souls who teach their children not to hate are also the sort most likely to tolerate repression, hoping it would just....go away....without them having to do anything unpleasant like, oh, fight.
Generally, your revolutionaries and radicals are very good at hating.
6191. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:11:31 PM
stostosto
I'd love to read/see that. I'll get onto SBS TV.
6192. CalGal - 2/4/2000 7:12:41 PM
I read them. Nothing all that terrible, given that he acknowledges it's an emotional reaction.
I also think your description of those posts as "advocation of revenge genocide" is inaccurate, misleading, and more than a tad disruptive all by itself.
6193. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:12:55 PM
CalGal
correction
#5096
6194. stostosto - 2/4/2000 7:13:34 PM
CalGal
Rustler's rant starts in Message # 6095, and goes on for a number of subsequent posts.
You say nothing that I don't agree fully to.
6195. Candide - 2/4/2000 7:16:44 PM
CalGal
Different view of the world.
I'm for freedom of speech so let them stand if you don't find them offensive beyond endurance.
You should feel pleased at all the excellent results fighting is achieving in the world at the moment.
6196. CalGal - 2/4/2000 7:18:58 PM
Sto--yeah, I saw that. I was wondering if I had missed something extreme. But then, I read Politics.
Candide--I should feel pleased? I'm very much a laissez faire sort in world events. It's you who always agitates for change and opposes r
