Our First Anniversary

Our first year, and we're still here!

Taking over the Internet thread didn't seem to work, so we shall start with a clean slate (no pun intended).

2. wabbit - 9/6/2000 10:33:14 AM

One year later, and we're still here. Some said it couldn't be done, but a handful of people made it happen and despite the bickering and whining and growing pains, the Mote survives.

Where do we go next?

3. theDiva - 9/6/2000 10:34:22 AM

er.....lunch?

4. Thoughtful - 9/6/2000 10:34:29 AM

I'll bring the chocolate mousse cake with the big candle in it.

5. theDiva - 9/6/2000 10:34:45 AM

now yer talkin'!

6. PsychProf - 9/6/2000 10:50:03 AM

We need to find a way to enlarge our posting audience.

7. glendajean - 9/6/2000 11:00:44 AM

Speak for yourself,PP. I'm trying to not to be so large.

8. theDiva - 9/6/2000 11:04:53 AM

Could we not talk about butt size, please?

Anyway, the Prof is on to something....I'd be interested to know just how our newest posters - benwolf, rama, ghentry, anonimie (sp?) found their ways to us.

9. JudithAtHome - 9/6/2000 11:07:42 AM

Oh happy day...I became involved in a huge argument with a good friend who claimed the Mote had been around for at least 2 years and that it was run by a magazine. Imagine that...someone who has never been on the Mote claiming to know more about it than moi and thinking they could beat me in an argument about it.

Hey, Jamie....check this out! (and stick around; you might like it.)

10. JudithAtHome - 9/6/2000 11:09:12 AM

Well, my snarky post aside, I think we don't do enough to engage new posters when they first show up. And at times, we flat out insult them.

11. tmachine - 9/6/2000 11:09:56 AM

wabbit! did you not get my email? miss you! please reply if you have my email address. and happy birthday moties!

12. PsychProf - 9/6/2000 11:13:30 AM

GJ...HaHaha

13. Jonesatlaw - 9/6/2000 11:34:38 AM

Happy anniversary, and many thanks to the Moties who have made it possible-techies, organizers, and threadhosts alike. I know that many will be skeptical, but I have learned more from what I have read in the Mote (and Fray before) than I did in most of my college courses. I have vicariously shared joys and sorrows, and have found friends here.

14. Cellar Door - 9/6/2000 11:36:34 AM

It's been a year? It seems like two.

15. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 11:53:35 AM

I knew it would succeed, once I joined.

16. JudithAtHome - 9/6/2000 12:12:03 PM

Jones:

You make many good points in your post....

What Jones said.

17. stostosto - 9/6/2000 12:25:25 PM

Happy birthday to us
Happy birthday to us
Happy birthday to the Moties
Happy birthday to us!

18. marjoribanks - 9/6/2000 12:32:44 PM

Folks,

1) Congratulations Wabbit.

2) The mote has its great moments and then it lays silent except for the usual chirping. I think the most imperative issue lies in getting new energy and also in attracting back the people who drew us here in the first place. I miss Loar, for one. Aned why does this forum not get Pseuders participacion?

Perhaps the key is to be more topical.

I'll ruminate about that a while.

19. theDiva - 9/6/2000 12:41:09 PM

Don't tell me the young upstart is back from his honeymoon and hasn't shown his face. I'll clean his clock.

20. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/6/2000 1:09:54 PM

I've made many treasured friends in this forum (and its predecessor). But we've become the same fine people saying the same things to each other, and the community is stale and inbred.

Unless we undertake a massive recruitment and promotion effort, things will continue to go downhill and eventually we'll go quietly into the night (which, I suppose, is preferable to what would have happened if we'd just disappeared last year when Slate pulled the plug).

21. DocBrown - 9/6/2000 1:18:22 PM

I certainly believe The Mote has a brighter future than you do, Irving Snodgrass. I think I understand your use of the term "stale" . . . but what inbreeding do you believe has taken place?

The Well has managed to survive for 15 years.

22. DocBrown - 9/6/2000 1:21:58 PM

Just when I need The Internet Thread it is gone! Pardon me if I interject a question that is somewhat on topic:

Does anyone know a good online resource for material on Internet Ethics? What about Internet Etiquette?

I am teaching my students about both subjects this week, to help them to be good citizens of the web.

23. JudithAtHome - 9/6/2000 1:22:42 PM

Well, I for one, am glad we didn't go gentle into Slates goodnight because I've met some wonderful people due to this place being around for a year.

I hope we can attract new blood to the site but it seems as though all we do is say "We need new people!" and a few people have ideas about how to get them here but we never seem to follow through. It seems we used all our "oomph" on getting started and have none left for recruiting efforts. I'm constantly asking people to check us out and I'm sure everyone else does this, too, but we need more than personal invitations...

24. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/6/2000 1:36:25 PM

Doc:
By inbreeding, I mean the lack of new blood.

Judith:
I've made suggestions on ways to promote this place on several occasions. It seems no one has the time or interest.

We aren't even listed on search engines, after all.

25. Wombat - 9/6/2000 1:46:49 PM

I kind of like the Mote's insularity. If newbies do not have strong nerves/wits, they do tend to get flayed.

26. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 1:46:55 PM

A suggestion: Pay someone $50 to do the promotion. Link a higher stipent on getting so many additional members.

27. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 1:48:02 PM

You would, wombat. After all you're Jewish. (g)

28. Wombat - 9/6/2000 1:48:54 PM

One of the virtues of the Mote is that it is not Table Talk.

29. Wombat - 9/6/2000 1:51:52 PM

Rosie:

I had composed a rude rejoinder to you, but thought better of it. Now I regret it. Of the Motiers who crack jokes, you are the most obvious and least amusing.

30. JudithAtHome - 9/6/2000 1:54:48 PM

Wombat:

I have decided in my second year on the Mote, I will try to ignore Rosetta. It might be a good thing for all of us...to try to ignore him.

31. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 1:55:35 PM

...And to think we drink from the same water service.

32. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 1:57:36 PM

Hey, Judith. What's the Jewish version of foreplay?

Half an hour of begging.

33. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/6/2000 2:03:34 PM

Somebody please confiscate Rosie's tasteless jokes book.

Rosie, I doubt we could find anyone willing to put in the number of hours of work needed to promote this site for a measly 50 bucks.

34. PelleNilsson - 9/6/2000 2:12:06 PM

Be a little (emphasis on little) patient with Rosie. As I've said before the Mote is a village and every village needs a fool.

I'l be back after checking out what else has happened in the Mote today.

35. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 2:24:04 PM

Thank goodness. He'll be back. Should we alert the media, Pelle?

36. Cellar Door - 9/6/2000 2:29:54 PM

"One of the virtues of the Mote is that it is not Table Talk."

That's one of the drawbacks too.

37. CalGal - 9/6/2000 2:41:02 PM

I said this over on the other thread--and as soon as I get some breathing room I'll copy the posts over--but I don't think that new membership is our problem. We add new people fairly frequently, given that we are incredibly small and don't promote. A good number of them stay.

But lately, a number of regulars are missing in action.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't promote.

38. PelleNilsson - 9/6/2000 3:16:05 PM

OK, Rosie, dig a hole. SuperSwede is back.

One thing we could do which won't cost much effort is to e-mail newcomers and ask what they think about the Mote, the user interface and so forth. That would show that we care.

I saw Jürgen Huber, a thoughtful German guy, say in TT that he liked the Mote but he was uncomfortable with the lack of delete/edit options. Now, we know the reason we don't have those and they are good reasons in my view. Maybe other newcomers have similar reservations about this or other features, or have good ideas for new features or design changes. To be "home blind" is a Swedish idiom meaning that once you get used to your environment you adapt to it and you don't see its imperfections. Maybe we regulars are home blind.

39. stostosto - 9/6/2000 3:59:04 PM

marj

Pseuder and Loar, I miss them too. And Seguine (I really liked her), and Pincher Martin. And Irv who isn't here very much. Which goes for the Sockster as well. And - not least - yourself, dude.

Pseuder: You have to wonder about that prissy public school boy. He says he's tired of us people here, and seeks a greater variety of posters which he says he finds in TT. But in reality I think he was worn out by always being out-debated by people of superior intellect and knowledge.

40. PelleNilsson - 9/6/2000 4:24:50 PM

Pincher is relocating to Taiwan.

41. alistairconnor - 9/6/2000 5:24:42 PM

OK Wabbit dear, that bug is fixed... It was a bug I introduced when I fixed a bug that I introduced when I fixed that bug where you could occasionally get a duplicate post number.


Moral : if it's only a little bit busted, don't try to fix it, you'll only make it worse.

42. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 5:27:02 PM

Make another mistake like that, alistair, and start looking for a new job.

43. alistairconnor - 9/6/2000 5:34:37 PM

I just wanted to give my point of view about why the site hasn't evolved technically since the first couple of months.

During the early period, programming the site was fun. In twenty years of IT work, I have never worked on such a rewarding project. The feedback from users was instant and positive. The early group of testers - Wabbit, Irv, Ace, Cal, Pelle and the rest - came up with excellent ideas for improvements, and I just went ahead and did it.

Then after a certain point, disagreements about future features started to emerge. There wasn't any easy way of getting a concensus, and I didn't feel it was my job to try to engineer one. I resolved to plough on and implement a bunch of new features that seemed like a good idea to me.

Then I thought, what is this, a dictatorship? Am I a dictator?

And I didn't do it.

To put it another way, it stopped being fun, so I stopped doing it. Let's face it, we're not saving the world here, we're doing it because it's fun.

44. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 5:37:32 PM

If it's your server, you're the dictator.

45. stostosto - 9/6/2000 5:38:52 PM

alistair

That's a tough one to face.

46. alistairconnor - 9/6/2000 5:48:52 PM

It ain't my server, Stoneface. It's Jay's server.

About numbers : I agree with Irv about the staleness of the site. I'm actually astonished at the loyalty of the fairly small pool of people, and the slow rate of drop-outs. The posting rate, and the number of active posters, has stayed very steady over the past year; but the new blood is only a very thin trickle; I suspect it's composed mainly of regulars from other forums who have heard about the Mote from our regulars.

Having said that, I enjoy the site and I'm still stimulated by it. The pool is small, but deep.

Let's not let it go stagnant. I have no particular problem with the number of regular posters -- if it was more than two or three times the current number, it wouldn't feel like such a community -- everyone more or less knows everyone here. But the turnover is not great enough.

In fact, if someone did finally get around to doing some promotion and the numbers increased by an order of magnitude, then that would create problems for me and for Jay, because it would require more technical support, more hardware and more bandwidth. I'm sure we could work out ways to handle it, but it would no longer just run itself as it does now. I suspect the moderation workload would take off too.

But these are challenges we need to be ready to take up. We need to progress in numbers -- not necessarily in the number of active posters on any given day, but in the number of passive readers, who one day become active posters.

47. Cellar Door - 9/6/2000 5:51:39 PM

I miss Elliot and Trouserpilot.

And I haven't seen B.G. Pelaire for the longest time.

48. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 5:57:13 PM

Lots of people lost interest and dropped out because of the banning of cazart. That was a major turning point in attracting new members.

And if it isn't your server, downstairs, why the whine?

49. JudithAtHome - 9/6/2000 6:10:22 PM

No one "dropped out" because cazart was "banned". Though there are many who wish someone HAD done so....

50. glendajean - 9/6/2000 6:24:36 PM

Cellar -- have you thought about hosting a thread? Your experience at both fray and mote is extensive. Is there a subject matter you would like to explore, talk about?

It does seem we have our permanent threads, but fewer hot and active short term threads. At least that is how it feels. One way to attract new blood, and new discussions, is changing the subject matter.

The downside of our stability is that we have chewed the same bone, so to speak, over and over.

51. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 6:24:39 PM

Judith, you remind me of that old joke about two WASPs making love when the man looked down and said: "Did I hurt you?"

"No," she replied. "Why?"

"You moved."

52. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 6:25:50 PM

glenda: I suggested that months ago. Let CD have the "Movies/TV" thread.

It can't get any worse than it is now.

53. glendajean - 9/6/2000 6:26:55 PM

No, we're not suggesting the same thing.

54. Cellar Door - 9/6/2000 6:30:21 PM

Ask meagain ina few months, glendajean. I've been pretty busy with projects. I've just been asked to write the lead article for "Variety's" special Gay Issue, coming out (pardon pun) late October.

55. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 6:30:53 PM

Why not? Take away that important thread from CalCal and let her be the promotion mistress. She likes meeting new people.

56. glendajean - 9/6/2000 6:35:24 PM

Cellar -- ok. I was thinking that you might do a thread on some topic that you are working on as a writer. But whatever, I look forward to when you can host it.

Let us know when the Variety issue comes out.

57. Cellar Door - 9/6/2000 6:54:45 PM

You bet!

58. MsIvoryTower - 9/6/2000 7:05:07 PM

Oh my, an anniversary thread.

Congratulations to the site for having made it through that first, infant year. And thanks to the many who have contributed their time and energy to keep the site going**.

Although I haven't participated all that much this year, I have kept tabs occasionally, either lurking or posting short notes. So I don't know that I have much to say about how the last year has gone, but I would agree we need to expand our horizons. I have thoroughly enjoyed maintaining contact with the people and the conversations that occur at the Mote. And I hope it continues to develop and thrive.

Perhaps registering with a search engine as a discussion site would bring some interesting new contacts. Perhaps these people would be more trouble than it's worth. I'd say we should try it, however.

I do know I'm going to try to get the legal thread moving again if possible in the next few weeks. Any and all input on that thread and its likely survival would be welcome.

**Special thanks to Alistair, Wabbit and Jay....

59. CalGal - 9/6/2000 7:05:40 PM

About new people--it seems to me that we said that we'd be happy with 10-12 new people a year. Given no promotion, we have come closer to that number than I would have thought possible--I think we have at least 6 new members that have stayed around.

We did think that we would need a lot of new users in order to keep just a few. Our retention rate seems a bit higher than average (using Irv's numbers from last year). So if we did manage to promote more, we'd do even better.

But still, I think that our current doldrums is due to the inactivity of current members. Perhaps because they don't have anyone to argue with because we are all pretty much in agreement? It's an interesting notion. We need more fodder!

60. MsIvoryTower - 9/6/2000 7:10:22 PM

Calgal

Part of the problem is lack of activity from some of us. Speaking for myself, my time has been so limited that it's been an effort to try to get involved in conversations. I've more often lurked than posted because I haven't felt able to post in the middle of some of the discussions. It seems to generate it's own feedback effects as well. The less I post the more I feel unable to follow discussions.

61. Uzmakk - 9/6/2000 7:23:05 PM

I would be upset of the Mote were to disappear. I intend to disagree with lots of Moties when the time is right. Has there been a second infusion of $ into the Mote that I missed? Hello, Msit.

62. CalGal - 9/6/2000 7:29:28 PM

Ms,

I know. I'm not blaming anyone for not pulling their posting share. If there is a reason why people have drifted off, of course, it's worth discovering.

63. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 7:50:47 PM

Some people blame you, CalCal. You're everywhere and it bothers some people.

64. Rama - 9/6/2000 8:11:57 PM

I would be happy to disagree with anyone here.

65. concerned - 9/6/2000 8:16:42 PM

Re. 48 -

Rosetta -

Cazart was banned? For what?

66. concerned - 9/6/2000 8:19:32 PM

Actually, if you think in term of mouse years, the Mote has been around quite a while.

67. Rama - 9/6/2000 8:19:46 PM

Excessive self-disclosure.

(Attempting to be disagreeable)

68. CalGal - 9/6/2000 8:26:10 PM

Rama,

I must say that thus far, you're a hoot. Can I ask how or where you found us?

69. arkymalarky - 9/6/2000 9:03:57 PM

My reduced time here is due to a busier homelife and not posting from work any more. I'm still enjoying it, though, and while it may be less active the reduced strife makes it more enjoyable to lurk and I still find the comments substantive for the most part. I read every thread, and when things (or people) are repetitive I just scroll on.

I wonder more about the absence of regulars than the lack of new people, though when we do get new ones I wonder if we do enough to try to keep them. I know I don't take time to post to new names I see nearly often enough.

70. concerned - 9/6/2000 9:07:02 PM

Break out the carbonated grape juice!

71. concerned - 9/6/2000 9:24:13 PM

May the Mote survive and prosper for many, many more mouse years.

72. concerned - 9/6/2000 9:34:09 PM

Re. 24 -

The Mote could be ballyhooed in such a link as 'The Forum where Table Talk and Free Republic Meet Without Bloodshed'.

heh

73. concerned - 9/6/2000 9:35:10 PM

Of course, I'm hearing rumbles that Salon might get flushed, so mentioning Table Talk might not be a good long term strategy.

74. DanDillon - 9/6/2000 10:02:46 PM

May I be so bold as to suggest that The Mote has become nothing more than the corner bar, in shambles, where a cast of scruffy regulars assembles and mutters the same dialogue day after day. What was born a great and vibrant public house has diminished into a puny watering hole. Yes, it may be deep, but what's good with a profound puddle?

Attracting new blood seems imperative, but how? In such an insular place as this--we pride ourselves perversely on being able to make newbies shudder and quake--it's nearly a lost cause. Lurking is often worth a moment or two, but posting, the lifeblood of this place, has become a chore. The script needs to go to rewrite.

Happy anniversary.

75. MsIvoryTower - 9/6/2000 10:07:53 PM

Uzmakk

Hello back.

Calgal

Not feeling guilty, just explaining my situation and the bad timing for being a larger part of the ongoing discussions.

Why does anyone respond to the idiot?

76. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 10:29:09 PM

Homework for the kids complete.

Concerned: Cazart (who many think is JadeGold) was offed because she wanted to start a thread looking at the differences in online forums, especially TableTalk.

The authorities said no and she bitched, claiming that her privacy was being violated. Even going so far as saying that people were threatening her.

Most of the action look place in The Mote Cafe in TableTalk. Her constant badmouthing of mote in TT was too much for CalCal, Indiana Jones, ChuckieL and Judith. Although talented, she's a bitter pill.

There may be more to the story, but those are the highlights.

77. concerned - 9/6/2000 10:35:54 PM

Re. 76 -

Hi, RS -

Thanks for the response. IMO, even though their posting style is somewhat similar, I'm virtually certain that they're different individuals (I hesitate to refer to JG as a person without additional confirming evidence). JG appeared here briefly, pulling her usual bigoted stunts & I quickly reminded her just how hot the kitchen could get, whereupon she vamoosed. Cazart & I, otoh, only briefly corresponded & I don't remember the subject matter at this point in time.

78. RosettaStone - 9/6/2000 10:40:59 PM

Cazart says that she/he is still posting on the mote under a different moniker. If so, I think it might be janjon.

79. concerned - 9/6/2000 11:54:13 PM

Pseuder: You have to wonder about that prissy public school boy. He says he's tired of us people here, and seeks a greater variety of posters which he says he finds in TT.

If that's the case, he's even more of an idiot than I have said he was.

80. JJBiener - 9/7/2000 1:33:33 AM

I am thrilled that a question and a challenge made in frustration resulted in the creation and continued existence of this site. I am proud that I had a small part to play as the instigator, and even prouder of the efforts of the individuals who did the real work in building and maintaining this site.

Like many others, I have not been able to spend much time here over the past few weeks. My job search, band activities, my brother's upcoming wedding, research into starting a business, plus the normal demands of family life have severely limited my time online. I am hoping I will have more time, now that I will be starting a new job Monday and I can get back to a normal schedule.

If I may get nostalgic for a moment, I remember our first real online event as a group back at the old place. A group of us hung out on election night 1996 and discussed the election returns as they came in. It was a great success even if the election did not go the way I would have liked.

I can't imagine doing a similar event this year. Serious political discussion has been almost completely drowned out in the Politics thread. The noise level is so great we are lucky to get one substantive post in twenty. It is difficult to find the wheat amongst all that chaff.

81. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 2:35:12 AM

I remember that evening, JJ. I might even have the thread saved somewhere.

82. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 7:43:32 AM

haha...I guess am one of those scruffy regulars that sips at this puny watering hole. Been good sippin for me...I am convinced, however, that we need to expand our base. Let's keep talking about it. I will now go to softwear to construct a gif where Dillon is shown fucking himself.

83. theDiva - 9/7/2000 8:00:15 AM

Geez, a scruffy regular am I?

84. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 9:06:01 AM

I repeat. Pay someone $50 (tops $100) to get the mote's address on all the search engines, write a professional invitation-introduction letter and keep a data base of e-mail addresses of interesting posters on other forums.

From my experience, the other three major on-line forums are: CNN, NYTimes and TableTalk. C-SPAN is also starting one that has potential.

We have to bet the buzz about the mote back.

85. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 9:06:25 AM

get

86. theDiva - 9/7/2000 9:08:30 AM

Stone

How does one get one's address listed on a search engine? And under what category would we fall?

87. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 9:11:11 AM

Dusty might be able to answer you since he checked it out last winter.

88. theDiva - 9/7/2000 9:15:50 AM

I just checked out Yahoo....we can suggest ourselves to be listed. They want a 25 word description.

I'll do it (sans $$) if someone will write up the description for me. Or edit this one:

Vibrant, lively general discussion forum built and staffed entirely by volunteers and participants. Politics, the arts, philosophy and religion, and more.

89. adrianne - 9/7/2000 9:49:29 AM

Congratulations to the mote, and thanks to all who made it possible.

FWIW, I just registered us at Google, it took about 4 minutes. We're not showing up yet, of course, but I'll keep checking over the next week, and if we still haven't shown up, I'll find out why and fix it.

Election night was fabulous - really, one of my best internet experiences.

Are we really interested in finding out why old-time regulars have dropped and why new folks don't stick around much? I can certainly offer my reasons for (almost) dropping out, but I don't have any desire to start a fight or a bunch of finger pointing, and isn't that inevitable if we discuss those things?

Doesn't seem sporting in a celebratory thread, imo. Especially since there's so much to be celebrated - really, so many of you guys have done a great job.

I dunno, my .02 cents.

90. Dusty - 9/7/2000 10:03:03 AM

Nice to see you Ad.

I vaguely recall looking into search engine registration some time ago, but I also (very vaguely) think that someone else agreed to or did do the registration.

It certainly doesn't hurt, but I don't think it will help much.

91. theDiva - 9/7/2000 10:04:45 AM

oh, hell, I'll just do it and I'll use that description.

AltaVista, Yahoo, Dogpile, Lycos, where else?

92. Rama - 9/7/2000 10:08:37 AM

CalGal

This site was recommended on TT by some Hollywood flack a rather prolific poster there.

93. rubberducky - 9/7/2000 10:11:22 AM

diva:

iWon & ask come to mind

94. theDiva - 9/7/2000 10:12:04 AM

okay, ducks, I'll add 'em to my list.

95. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 10:21:19 AM

Rama: Are you sure it wasn't moi who recommended mote to tu?

No big deal but I like to get the credit.

96. Cellar Door - 9/7/2000 10:28:47 AM

"Some Hollywood flack"? Now who could that be?

97. Rama - 9/7/2000 10:35:57 AM

Nope, sorry, I only know RosettaStone from a CalGal tagline.

98. rubberducky - 9/7/2000 11:11:32 AM

well, then.

you know all of RosettaStone you need to know

99. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 6:31:38 PM

I promised I'd do this last week. Here it is :

The Mote : The Programmer's Tale

100. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 6:32:10 PM

Friday 13th August was a good day. JJBiener and CalGal had raised the standard of revolt. Slate doesn't want us? Then let's do our own thing. I immediately volunteered as tech slave.
Various options were canvassed :
- Colonising another discussion site. This was in fact used as a stopgap measure;
- Finding a shareware package, or buying a commercial package, to run a discussion forum of our own, and renting server space. JJ started accepting donations (which are presumably still sitting in a bank account somewhere; or paying for his holiday air fares. Whatever.)
- Asking Slate for the Fray source code, and adapting and running it ourselves on rented server space.

I immediately vetoed the third option. The code was obviously riddled with bugs, there had been little or no maintenance done on it, and there was no way I was going to take on their crap!

The more I looked at the second option, the more I wondered what I was getting myself into. It was going to be complicated and time-consuming to evaluate, then configure and maintain one of those packages. And it would never look and feel as good as our beloved/hated Fray...

Then I thought : How complicated can it be to do it myself?

And when I thought it through, it was almost trivial : three database tables (user, thread, post) and a couple of hundred lines of code would be enough.

101. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 6:33:17 PM

I spent Saturday 14th at the office, writing code and playing around with it until I had a web site which published threads and posts out of a database : i.e. a read-only version of the Mote. JJ mailed me a .GIF file he had created, the sci-fi thing which is the site's masthead; so I suppose we must have already decided on the name.

Digression : How the Mote nearly didn't come to be.
I rode my bicycle to the office that Saturday. Arriving at the back door, I have trouble opening it : my key is a bad copy, or someone's been messing with the lock. I'm holding my bike with one hand, and wrestling with the door with the other. I eventually get the door open, but now I can't get the key out. I take my bike inside, so I can use both hands, and start wrestling the door again. While doing so, I close it - and can't get it open again. The key is completely stuck, and I'm outside. Needless to say, my bag with money, house keys, phone card etc is attached to my bike... inside. There may well be someone at the office, but they'll be at the other end of the building, two floors up.

Abject defeat. In retrospect, about a 50-50 chance that the Mote will never get off the ground : time constraints, lack of gumption, etc. I'm about to walk home (hoping someone is there to let me in!).

Then I see... a pair of feet sticking out the first floor window. I yell at them, and it turns out that there's a head attached. Yes, the guy in the first floor office is happy to let me in. End of digression.

102. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 6:54:46 PM

On Monday, I worked out how to make the "alpha" Mote site, which was on a development server at the office, accessible to the rest of the world... CalGal was the first alpha user.
Monday was a busy e-mail day... IrvingSnodgrass is now in the loop: I implore him to accept the position of Honorary Life President and Lord High Poobah. He's thinking about it. JayAckroyd offers hosting services!! We're in business; this solves our two major problems with one stone : he's liable to be much more co-operative technically than any commercial hosting outfit will be; and he doesn't want any money.

103. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 7:15:18 PM

Wednesday, 18th August : I announce an "advanced alpha" version. I have created logins for Calgal, jjbiener and IrvingSnodgrass, so there are four of us posting now. Although that first thread no longer "exists", I invite you to take a look at those first posts through this link. (The first post by someone other than me is 24, by Calgal. Previous to that I'm trying out their logins.)

Note that your browser will probably show these posts dated 17th August. That's not a bug, that's a feature... my chronology is in New Zealand time, the world's most advanced.

104. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 7:16:13 PM

You'll note that at this early stage, we've already worked out that we can do what we like with HTML. Is this due to extreme cleverness on my part? Not at all. It just happens that whatever you type (or paste) gets put in the database, then merged with the rest of the user-interface HTML when a page is displayed. So if some clever dick puts HTML tags in their post, they are interpreted by your browser and you see the end result. Corollary : if they forgot to put in the closing tag, then the effect stays turned on for the following posts, until someone inserts the appropriate end tag to turn it off.

The more I think about this "bug", the more I like it. Virtually everyone is telling me that I need to parse the HTML to permit a certain limited number of things, and forbid everything else; also to close any open tags. I resist this because

• I like the notion of collective responsibility and the fostering of community spirit that this entails
• there's a lot of programming involved, and I'm lazy.
  

105. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 7:45:54 PM

Still Wednesday : Wabbit joins the party. I create logins for a bunch of people who we hope will agree to be beta testers. PelleNilsson immediately becomes an enthusiastic member of the team. ArkyMalarkey, TheDiva, PhillipDavid are the next to show up.

Friday 20th August : One week after the launching of the project. I hand over the new moderation features to Irving : he can create users and threads, and (shudder) delete posts.
Saturday 21st : more moderation features for Irving, and the self-registration is working. A lot of the hard-core Fray people are on board by now. Posting is as heavy as a peak day on the Fray!

Sunday 22nd : JayAckroyd and I finally get co-ordinated, and in a flurry of e-mails and FTP, we set up the Mote on his server in New York. I dump the data from my database and he loads it onto his server, so we even keep all the posts from that frantic first week... Some time after midnight, Monday morning (my time) we do the switch-over, and the Mote changes hemispheres.

106. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 8:01:12 PM

I breathe a heavy sigh of relief. Nobody at the office knew I was running a bulletin board on the test machine, and it was eating up a lot of bandwidth... and at any moment, somebody could have pulled the plug and used the machine for something else.
Traffic during that first week was heavy, and I was amazed that the box, a Pentium 100, stood up to the strain so well. Response times were excellent at all times. I can't understand how Microsoft, creators of all this technology, made such a balls of the Fray - slow, unreliable and buggy.

Speaking of Microsoft... A concensus emerges to change the look and feel of the site. What I did was simply rip off the Fray, because I liked the setup a great deal.
Although at the time I claimed to have "reverse engineered" the Fray user interface, in fact what I did was to save a page of the Fray to HTML, hack out the ads and the Slate table of contents (which were the main reasons the Fray pages were so slow to load and unreliable, by the way), and use this HTML as a template to insert the Mote data into. The resemblance to the original was uncanny; Irving thought it might be actionable. He was afraid that Microsoft might sue us if we went public in that form.

Monday 23rd August : Irving doesn't want to be moderator; he is understandably burned out after the Fray. Wabbit becomes the Mote's first (and so far, only) Virtual Irving.

107. alistairconnor - 8/21/2000 8:17:12 PM

Development work goes on during this, the second week of the project. Thread-level moderation, and a bunch of other stuff, means that we have now left the Fray far behind from a functional point of view. And Calgal is working on the user interface on the development machine (the Mote's first server).

On Friday 27th, I'm installing some changes to Jay's server and I inadvertently install Calgal's work-in-progress user interface. I like it so much that I decide to leave it. I can now reveal that Calgal was exceedingly pissed off with me... but everyone loved the new version so much that we couldn't back out.

And now, we were ready for the world. Just need the domain-name registration to come through, and we're open for business.

(That's all I feel like writing tonight folks... you know the rest anyway.)

108. CalGal - 9/7/2000 11:28:02 AM

The above sequence (99-107) was moved from Internet Life. It's Alistair's tale of how it all began.

109. CalGal - 8/27/2000 2:16:27 PM

My take on The Birth of the Mote

The post appeared on August 9, just a bit after 5:00 in the afternoon.

Existing Fraygrants;

We would like to invite you to try the new Fray, currently available in beta here. You should notice some significant changes, and we encourage you to read the FAQ available in the Fray Beta thread, if you have any questions. Over the long-term, Slate is working to provide a way let our readers provide feedback to the editors, and to build more of a sense of community among our readers. We hope that the newly redesigned Fray is a step in that direction.

110. CalGal - 8/27/2000 2:18:50 PM

Slate had decided to kill the Fray, a passionate, ferociously committed community of some 200 users, who weren’t particularly interested in the magazine, but had created an intelligent forum . It was fair enough. Slate owned the software, database, and network that made the community possible, and they were telling us, in a rather roundabout fashion, that our free ride was over. They didn’t want the hassle. They didn’t want the expense. And, frankly, they didn’t want us. They wanted a place where people who actually read the magazine would post comments about articles. An online “letters to the editors”, rather than a forum that discussed everything and everyone with vigor, intensity, and high levels of abuse. Oh, and by the way—Irv was fired.


The distress we all felt upon the elimination of our forum is probably hard to communicate to anyone who isn’t quite clear on the difference between a forum and a chatroom, and who is a bit confused by the willingness that a few people have to become engaged and involved in what is nothing more than a series of words on a screen.

Want an analogy? Think of a bar. No, better yet, think of a club. The clubs of the sort that gentlemen had back in England, maybe, but a bit more egalitarian. (only a bit, though). You visit it frequently—in fact, when you can, you work from there. You know the quality of conversation, the nature of discourse, the type of people who hang out there. You’re known, you have the routine down, you know the regulars—in fact, you are a regular. Some of the other members are your friends, some you can’t stand, but you wouldn’t want to do without most of them. In most cases, the only contact you have with these people is at the club.

111. CalGal - 8/27/2000 2:32:47 PM

Then your comfy cozy little club sells out to a conglomerate, and the conglomerate is converting the bar into a pro-wrestling video bar, and there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it.

If you are thinking to yourself, “Well, go out and find a real club, for heavens sakes, rather than looking for life online” you are missing the point. But I digress.

We were, as one poster put it, being downsized. Booted out. Our forum was about to be gunned down on the causeway, and it was just business. Nothing personal.

In the midst of all of our anger and frustration was a real sense of panic. It was our little community, and we did love it. Was it lost forever, or could we keep it intact?

The obvious, immediate act was to move to another forum. There are a number of them, with Salon’s Tabletalk the obvious place to investigate. Some folks thought that this would be enough—we all established “beachheads” (discussion threads) for people to check out, got to know the regulars.

Myself, I was very worried. I knew Tabletalk better than most, and I didn’t think it was best suited for our group. Besides, I had seen what happened when CNN closed its forum and they had all moved to Tabletalk. It wasn't pretty. Tabletalk administrators are far more active and intrusive than what we were used to, as well.


But more than that, I wasn't sure that moving to another forum and opening ourselves to the same risk again seemed like a bad idea. Slate's decision had really opened my eyes to the economics of forums in general, and it seemed to me eminently possible that over time, other magazines might make the same call. It seemed to me that we wouldn't want to expose ourselves to that again.

Obviously, the solution hovering in the back of my mind was to eliminate a magazine or any other backer from the picture. Build our own place.

112. CalGal - 8/27/2000 2:37:31 PM

I'm familiar enough with the costs of servers, networks, software, and databases. To say nothing of the difficulties of setting up a forum, creating policy without an impersonal magazine to back up the authority of the administrator. And then there was marketing. How would we get new people? How would we support the costs? Would there be enough enthusiasm to see us through, or would most people prefer to take the "safe" route of finding another forum and hope for the best? Besides, maybe that was the best. Was it a pipe dream to think we should try to remove our dependence on a 'zine forum? Should I even mention it, given how hard it would be to follow through?

And lo! like a voice in the darkness, someone echoed my thoughts, and had the chutzpah to say it out loud.

4054. JJBiener - Aug. 10, 1999 - 12:26 PM PT
OK Guys. The way I see it, we are The Fray (cue soundtrack "We are the Fray, we are the children. . ."). Where we go, the Fray goes with us. About a hundred of us have been paying $20 a year to Slate in order to post here. I did a little calculation and figure that we can create our own site for what we are paying here.

We can go to Mindspring or any one of a billion web hosting sites and get 50M of disk for about $50 a month. I believe we have enough technical expertise amongst our members to do the software.

I have found the Fray to be an real online community and I am not willing to give it up. The Fray exists wherever we as a group go. However, I am afraid that if we go to TT or suite 101 we will lose that which makes us unique.

Here is what I want to know. Would you pay $20 per year to see the Fray continue as an independent entity? Do you have skills that you could volunteer to the cause? If you don't want to reply here, send me an email at jjbiener@yahoo.com.

The Fray Lives!

113. CalGal - 8/27/2000 3:00:29 PM

Well, hell, if he was going to be brave enough to mention it, the least I could do was jump right in and join him. JJ and I spoke on the phone that night, mapped out a gameplan, and despite all the difficulties that we agreed were out there waiting, we proposed to move forward. And asked for money.

I was incredibly heartened by the immediate and enthusiastic response. Once again, I am reminded that I am too much the pessimist.

We came up with the easy part first--a name. At the time, two members were running a small online magazine called "The Sun's Eye", and it seemed obvious that we should be The Mote. The magazine has since disappeared, but the name remains. JJ designed our logo and we amused ourselves by trying to think up names for our crew (Moties? Mote Members? Mo-telles?).

Still, JJ and I knew that the two most difficult barriers were also the most immediate: Where would we house our forum, and what software/database would we use to run it?

We were investigating pay sites, and were confident that we could make it work. The hack writers had it right: Time was our Enemy.

Slate had given the Fray only another two weeks before they pulled the plug on the access. Even though we had hit the ground running on the second day, that gave us only two weeks to find a new place, find software, customize it, and so on. That wasn't very much time, and we knew that there was a risk that people would get discouraged if the Fray disappeared and we didn't have our new digs.

But then we were handed two miracles:

1. JayAckroyd, owner of an NYC consulting company, readily volunteered to host our forum for free.
2. Alistair Connor got involved, and built a replacement forum that was better than any other interface we'd ever seen.

114. CalGal - 8/27/2000 3:15:42 PM

It is impossible to overstate the impact that their generosity had on our ability to create this site with our membership nearly intact. Alistair turned it over to a few of us (while still on his own server) for initial testing, and we kept the diaspora (maintaining temporary digs at Tabletalk) abreast of developments.

Within a week, Irving Snodgrass--still in mourning over Slate's betrayal, but ready and willing to provide us with temporary guidance--was setting up userids for beta testers. It took a lot of time and energy, but he used his extensive address book and the reservoir of trust that he'd built up over the years to create ids and passwords for everyone he knew.

The beta period--from around August 16 through September 10--was one of true exhilaration. We'd done it! We'd created our own place! (Well, Alistair had created our own place, but we'd helped.) Animosities disappeared, intent discussions on policy initiated, and we quickly had what we felt was an excellent approach to a workable policy. Each thread would have a host, and the host would have absolute power to set the tone and discussion for the thread. Posts could be deleted if they were deemed inappropriate--and the host had full discretion.

But we also realized that fully decentralized power wouldn't work. We needed an authority figure--someone with complete control to enforce our minimal rules, to determine if a host was being abusive, and to make final determinations on policy issues.

So who would be our forum administrator? Irving had firmly declared that he wasn't interested. Fortunately, he had the ideal candidate in mind, and we got our third lucky break when Wabbit agreed to take on the job. (Job? Volunteer duty, and often thankless at that. But at least the hours are nonstop.)

115. DocBrown - 9/7/2000 11:31:08 AM

I doubt that I would ever have found The Mote through a search engine. I got to The Fray due to a recommendation from someone at another message board. I read some threads and was impressed with the intellectual content.

IMO thread content is the key to Mote success. Keep good threads going and I will always find a way to stay around, and new people will be more likely to stay.

For this reason thread hosts are critical. We need people to keep lively discussions going all the time.

Compared to other message boards, The Mote can have relatively few thread operating at any given time. For this reason threads often split into little subtopics. This is not necessarily bad, but it certainly would be a easier to follow detailed discussions if the individual threads were searchable.

116. CalGal - 8/27/2000 3:46:37 PM

One other concern that some of us had was the "look and feel" of the interface. Would Slate--or worse, Microsoft--be bothered by the fact that Alistair had just lifted the best bits of the Fray and made them work better? Some people poohpoohed this fear, others of us pointed to bored legal departments and discretion won out. I started playing with the user interface, ChristinO gave me a mockup that spurred my imagination and I designed the front page we have today. Installed a bit precipitously by Alistair, to my outraged indignation.

Further enhancements were made as I continued playing with it and users provided feedback. More changes were made as it became clear that the nervous nellies among us did indeed have the right of it--Slate staff were apparently monitoring the Fray for posts that mentioned The Mote and were deleting them. Several people were banned from the new Fray for mentioning it. Thus far we had kept the existence of our site a secret, and it became clear that we wanted to make sure that the look and feel was utterly different from Slate before we went "live".

So we had a server, software, a new look and feel, an administrator, and what we felt would be a working policy.

We were good to go.

Our unveiling on September 11 was expected to be a huge success. The goodwill and cooperation had been astounding, and we had no reason to expect that things would fall apart.

Hoooooo boy.

The next two weeks were a nightmare. Without going into specifics, it seemed clear that the policies that we thought would be accepted without question--well, they were questioned. And questioned. And questioned again.

But when the dust had settled, and the nerve endings had grown back, one thing was evident: our policies had stood up to the test. We didn't alter them in a hurry or change them for an emergency. We didn't need to. They had worked.

They continue to work to this day.

117. CalGal - 9/7/2000 11:33:07 AM

109-116 (except Doc's post) is my take on the creation tale, moved from Internet Life.

118. sincerity454 - 8/27/2000 4:07:16 PM

Cal-gal -

This story is fascinating to me. I have been an active member of the online community on the NYT forums since 1998 - two years ago this summer, to be exact, is when I first discovered the place. My milieu was the books forums where I have had the pleasure to meet and converse with some of the most interesting people imaginable. The problem over there is the fact that the Times is so cheap that they won't spend any money to upgrade their software, enabling permanent banning of crazies. The end result is, a horde of abusive, mentally ill uglies have gradually destroyed the primary areas I frequent over there in the past year - worse still, I became one of their targets. The regulars had them all banned, but all they have to do is go back in and spend three minutes re-registering, and poof! they're ba-ack! The NYT employs people to spend the day monitoring the forums and banning these people over and over again, but they won't put out the money to get the programming that would enable them to deny registration to certain e-mail addresses, and they also refuse to deny registration to people registering with bogus or internet addresses. It finally got so ugly over there that I decided to divorce the entire group altogether after two years. The group dynamics in situations like that are so ugly and painful, and you realize you're not there anymore for any edifying purpose - you're too busy fending off attacks from weirdos.

Anyway, hats off to you guys for this great forum and your resilience and resourcefulness -it's quite inspiring.

119. PelleNilsson - 8/27/2000 5:01:42 PM

CalGal

That's a good account of the early days. I vividly remember the excitment and enthusiasm of the beta phase when we hashed out the RoE and the despair when everything was questioned in some of the ugliest debates we've ever had. But as you say, it was overcome.

What worries me now is that we may have become tired and complacent. The site is good, but it can be improved, yet virtually nothing has been done the past year.

I know there are philosophical differences between you and alistair on what could and should be done, but perhaps some of them can be overcome by a measure of good will. I have a concrete proposal. We now have a number of new posters. Let them and us veterans join forces in a new temporary thread, the Anniversary Thread. to propose improvements to the Mote. I volunteer to act as secretary; to keep track of proposals and how they have been received, and on the basis of that come up with an action programme to be implemented as as allowed by time and resources.

120. CalGal - 8/27/2000 5:40:15 PM

Pelle,

It isn't any disagreement between Alistair and I that has caused the holdup in the development. It is, rather, a huge combination of logistics, time, availability, and then a gotcha at the end.

I had a bunch of changes almost ready to go last December, but then Alistair had to close down the dev server, and he didn't have time to do the work to finalize a few of my changes. We didn't have a development server for some three months. When one was finally set up, I was working three contracts and didn't have the time--I decided to get MoteMovies caught up instead, which in retrospect was the wrong trade.

Then in May, when I was finally ready to start working on it, the server was unavailable. I forget why, now, but it was down for about two weeks. When it finally came back up, bam! my computer's power source died, and that's where all my source code was for the changes.

Happily, my computer is fixed--I just spoke yesterday to the people at Frys. I will go pick it up today, I swear. At which point I will place a very high priority on putting my changes back up in development and articulating what I needed Alistair to do. I will be asking for volunteers again at that time. Of course, any further suggestions or changes at that time can be made.

That being said, I think the idea of an Anniversary thread is excellent. There's no question we've been in the doldrums lately--although individual conversations have been fascinating. But I would still love for us to get some marketing ideas together.

One thing I find encouraging is that throughout the year, we have had a high rate of newbies who show up and stay. Much higher than normal, I think. The problem is that we still need a lot more people checking us out, which means we have to find a way to advertise or market.

Anyway, howzabout you suggest the thread to Wabbit, with you as host?

121. stostosto - 8/28/2000 6:25:16 AM

Pelle is right. We are good, but that doesn't mean we couldn't be better. Personally, I could do a whole lot more --- if I had correspondingly more time available for the Mote. (And I do feel like a free rider to some extent). And that's one of the constraints, of course. We are based on volunteerism, hence 'workable' is likely to win over 'excellent'.

Apart from that, the biggest feature of a place like the Mote will always be the attendeeship. And I am really glad to see new interesting people in here.

CalGal, I think your story is great, and as always I am taken aback by your sheer fabulousity. I also find your ponderings of the issue of internet forum dynamics interesting. I think it could form an interesting academic topic, perhaps within the larger one of internet behaviour.

I think one thing (one of the few things?) forum people such as the Moties have in common is their ability and inclination to express themselves in writing and feel genuinely socially involved in what is -like you put it - nothing more than lines of text on a screen. Of course one gets curious as to the real life appearance of people here, and occasionally people post pictures of themselves which I am sure attract a lot of attention. There has also been real life get-togethers.

But otherwise, I find it amazing how easy it is to relate to people and get a feel for their personality purely on the basis of their writings here. In many cases I imagine that this is the most personal form of interaction I would be liable to have with other Moties, even if I had the chance to see them face-to-face on a regular basis.

122. CalGal - 9/7/2000 11:39:33 AM

118-121 were also moved from Internet Life. I will try and find the earlier discussion we had on marketing, but I have to ride my bike to work today, because my car is being disembowelled.

123. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 11:41:04 AM

Neat story, Neat people, Neat Place...

124. DocBrown - 9/7/2000 11:56:38 AM

Sorry that my message landed in the middle of everything, CalGal.

I enjoyed reading the story very much.

125. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 1:29:58 PM

Cal:
Thanks for moving the posts. I hadn't seen them.

I'm amazed that, contrary to normal human behavior, Alistair's history and your history jibe with my own recollections perfectly. Usually people reform history in their minds over time. It doesn't appear to have happened here (unless we all share a mutual delusion).

I can recall those early days, when I was trying to cope with my betrayal by Slate, after having put in so much effort and so much of myself on their behalf. They gave me no advance warning... the change to the Fray was announced publicly before they ever got around to telling me. I was pretty upset, and then they threw some heavy-duty threats into the mix to shut me up. I haven't said it publicly before, but those people are the most ungrateful, self-serving, ignorant assholes I have ever had to deal with in my life. Yes, I was screwed, but worse, they tried to screw all of us. And we got the last laugh.

I spent the two weeks between learning of the fray's demise and the actual pulling of the plug doing what I could for the Mote. I sent out over 600 e-mails to active and not-so-active fraygrants, preparing each e-mail by hand -- typing in the addresses and pasting the text, since I didn't have an automated e-mail program which could handle passwords which I created individually for each user. Yes, I sent out 600 personal e-mails. Although I got a few nasty responses, the vast majority were supportive, and over 200 of those people joined up.

[continued]

126. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 1:30:33 PM

I also remember hour-long phone international phone calls about the appearance of the site and massive quantities of e-mails, as well as the heady, exciting times of testing the site and discovering our limits before we went public. We were like kids set free after the parents had left. And finding out we knew much more and did it better than the parents.

The stories you and Alistair posted should be the basis of our promotion effort. We need to create a buzz, and this is a great story. We don't need to merely send irritating junk mail... we need to get the word out all over the internet and in the press.

And a good listing on search engines would help, too. This means not only getting listed (which is free), but making sure our listing includes the right keywords for the search engine bots. We should also add an introductory paragraph to our front page, specifically for the benefit of those bots. In my RL business, we have managed to get ourselves in the top two or three listings on all engines through these tactics. Nobody ever checks the second page of a search engine.

127. janjon - 9/7/2000 1:47:19 PM

can't comment on the birth pangs or what preceded or required them, and don't really have a clue as to what is needed to attract new people. Which this place sorely needs, since it really is quite predictable in too many ways. But it is disconcerting and disheartening to have observed that a rather large number of interesting people (spudsboy, trialshark, candide, loar, pseudoerasmus come immediately to mind, but given a moment or two I could think of more) who were here for differing but long periods of time, aren't. Surely most if not all of these are known at least somewhat well by others here, and it might be worthwhile to try to figure out why they left and what lessons in terms of changes or promotional approaches are to be gathered.

128. theDiva - 9/7/2000 1:49:36 PM

Candide, for one, has undertaken a massive project and no longer has time to Mote. Pseuder wasn't here all summer because he was traveling and getting married, and he is in the midst of his usual 'if they clamor enough for me I will make a coy, fleeting appearance' routine.

And I do miss the others, too.

129. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 1:53:41 PM

Candide was driven out by nastiness, and has vowed never to return. The others, presumably, left due to boredom (I know of at least one of those listed by janjon, via personal communication, where this is certainly the reason)... there's only so many times the same people can say the same things to each other. Others have found they no longer have the time to participate actively (myself, for one).

130. theDiva - 9/7/2000 1:58:34 PM

Geez, Irv, I was trying to be discreet!

Seriously, though, I wrote her after she left and she did indeed say she was engaged in something that took up a great deal of her time, so she'd not have time to Mote anyway even if she were so inclined.

131. CalGal - 9/7/2000 2:01:39 PM

Trialshark isn't posting for reasons unrelated to the Mote. Pseudoerasmus did seem to get bored. Candide left because of meanness, which is too bad but that is part of how things work here. I hope she comes back. Spud also might have left because of anger or something.

132. JudithAtHome - 9/7/2000 2:18:45 PM

Candide left because of meanness and that is just how things work here? Maybe that is part of the problem....

133. CalGal - 9/7/2000 2:24:34 PM

But that's how things work everywhere else, too, Judith. It's not like we're a particularly mean forum. In fact, I think we're relatively civilized.

Also, recall that Candide was condescending and used that as a form of attack. So just because she didn't say, "What a fucking asshole" doesn't mean that she didn't do her share.

I would rather she have stuck around; I actually liked her.

134. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 2:28:34 PM

Sometimes(mosttimes?) people just change their cyberlives for personal reasons. The Mote itself, and the posting therein, is most surely secondary to the evolution of other life circumstances. I do not assume someone leaves for any other reason than that is what they chose to do. I see no evidence that the Mote operates in a linear, singular causative manner here. This is why it is imperative that we continue to expand our base.

135. PelleNilsson - 9/7/2000 2:32:13 PM

PE moved to TT because his brilliance stands out better there than here. In simpler terms: there are more fools to slap around in TT. Pincher moved there too because he likes slugfeasts but he doesn't like to lose them. Again, the TT environment is more "friendly" in this respect. And about Candide, let's face it, she never fitted in, too idealistic, too apt to sulk. Which is a pity because she is an interesting personality with many insights that few of us have.

136. JudithAtHome - 9/7/2000 2:33:30 PM

Well, I've noticed several episodes of new people being jumped on and run off....obviously, they didn't feel welcome enough to stay.

I just think this place is pretty happy with itself and isn't too concerned with getting a lot of new people in, frankly. That's fine if it's true but it's rather disingenuous to carry on about wanting to attract new people if most of the participants realy don't care enough to do so. I'm not trying to be negative here...just expressing my feeling.

137. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 2:33:52 PM

Very well put, PP. I actually find it quite amazing (and a tribute to what we have built) that so many people have stayed for so long. People like you, me, JJ, the Ms, TMac, Rubberducky, Don S, Riv, and a handful of others, date back to 1996 with this community. I doubt you'll find that kind of commitment elsewhere.

But we really do need to grow. If we feel things are good enough, we're deluding ourselves.

138. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 2:38:51 PM

I've heard a number of people say, from time to time, that the few newbies we get aren't of the "quality" we need. Sure, not everyone is equally adept at expressing themselves, and not everyone will fit in, but in order to get "quality" posters or members who stick around, we need lots and lots of newbies, constantly. At the old place, there were over 30,000 IDs registered. We have maybe 500.

139. CalGal - 9/7/2000 2:39:28 PM

In simpler terms: there are more fools to slap around in TT.

I agree. I also think this is part of what happened with JV and Ace--although JV is busy as well. I think they enjoyed having fools to slap around--but they need a certain standard of fools, and once they all left, they got bored.

We don't have a lot of patience with fools here as a group. We don't respond satisfactorily to them. They leave. Overall, this is a good thing. But it makes life dull for those who enjoy kicking them.

I think the high retention rate of intelligent new posters is a good sign, and that we certainly have. As Irv once said, you're lucky if you get one or two new people a month, and that's with hundreds of people checking the place out. We are nowhere near that many people checking us out--and yet we've nearly gotten one a month. Close, anyway.

That doesn't mean that I'm satisfied, or that I don't want more exposure or more people. But I do think that we have to accept the fact that we're a tough crowd.

140. CalGal - 9/7/2000 2:40:49 PM

Actually, one every two months is probably fairer. Still, not dreadful. We have had more new regulars join this year than in our last year at the Fray, I think.

141. rubberducky - 9/7/2000 2:40:59 PM

Re: Message # 134, PsychProf.

i agree 100%. speaking only for myself, the year (or so) break that i took when the Fray was gonna close was due more to personal issues that i had to work out than the closing of the Fray and opening of the Mote.

and, looking back, i'm certainly glad i took it. certainly gives a better perspective after not posting for a while.

of course, i'm glad to be back too. just surprised the place was still up and running without my pithy comments.

142. Wombat - 9/7/2000 2:46:07 PM

Irv:

The "old place" was based at an e-zine that had a portion of Microsoft's corporate power behind it. You couldn't miss it.

143. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 2:49:16 PM

I know, Wombat. I don't pretend that we can ever equal that kind of exposure. But a bit more visibility would be nice.

On the plus side, we don't have the baggage of Microsoft's bungling idiocy to deal with either.

144. CalGal - 9/7/2000 2:53:10 PM

Irv,

Just read your story--I forgot the phone calls! They were fun, as was the fact that it was easier for you to take a picture of your screen with your digital camera than take a screen print.

The stories you and Alistair posted should be the basis of our promotion effort.

How do we make that happen? What is involved? I might move our posts on the logistics, they seem relevant.

145. PelleNilsson - 9/7/2000 2:58:32 PM

Judith

Well, I've noticed several episodes of new people being jumped on and run off....obviously, they didn't feel welcome enough to stay.

Such as?

146. Raskolnikov - 9/7/2000 2:58:55 PM

My own take:

I barely post here anymore. One reason for this is that I have taken a new job which gives very little time for participating in online forums (I haven't been posting at TT either). But even before that my posts had scaled down. This was largely because of boredom. It was largely the same arguments with the same small group of people. The primary reasons why I participate in online forums are that 1) I want to inform myself, 2) I want to inform others, and 3) I like the sport of arguing. In an insulated small community, it doesn't take long before you have mostly tapped out the expertise of the group in topics of mutual interest (if you can even get them to engage you on a topic they have discussed 10 times already), and it isn't much fun to argue when you know exactly how the argument will go based on past experience.

One solution should be obvious, and has been mentioned already: a constant influx of new blood. But I have to point out my doubts about whether that new blood can be kept with the diminished core of posters that are still here. It would take a lot of savvy marketing, and a tolerance for newbies that has never been a strength of this community.

147. Indiana Jones - 9/7/2000 3:20:18 PM

I think the proper side to approach this is from the "Why do people stay?" side, rather than "Why do people leave?" People leave for a myriad of reasons, but I think it's much simpler to figure out the reasons they might stay.

Why I stayed was that I liked the quality of some of the writers here, the community seemed to have a fair share of intelligent and friendly folk, and the idea of the Mote was intriguing.

Of late, I don't think the Mote has been very hard on newbies, but has in fact tried to cultivate the few that have shown up. Part of the problem IMO is indeed that we have grown too nice in that there is a reluctance among the old hands to slug it out amongst themselves anymore, but that's probably a small problem.

I agree with a lot of the analysis by various Motiers. I also think two major problems are structural: 1) the Mote was set up by a few people who dearly love it but have maintained so much control over it that it's difficult for the Mote to grow; 2) simultaneously, those people aren't able to devote the tremendous energy to it anymore that would be required for it to grow just from their efforts alone. To use an open source analogy, it would be like Linus Torvald trying to grow Linux entirely by himself. I make this criticism about no one in particular, but in general: old hands fear change because of losing what the Mote (Fray) once was, but change or dissolution is inevitable. It's just not practical for anyone, no matter how talented, to devote a small fraction of their time to this site and keep it living and vibrant.

Some suggestions to follow...

148. Indiana Jones - 9/7/2000 3:24:43 PM

To get people to stay, you need to give some of them ownership, where they can feel they make a contribution. This needs to be easily achievable without a lot of bureaucratic red tape. You also need to provide diversions. Part of the staleness is we have a bar without a dartboard, pool table, or even booze. All we have is the talk, and as convivial as it is, people talk best when they have something to do while they talk.

149. DocBrown - 9/7/2000 3:39:19 PM

Part of the staleness is we have a bar without a dartboard, pool table, or even booze. All we have is the talk, and as convivial as it is, people talk best when they have something to do while they talk.

While this is not a perfect solution, it is possible for threadhosts and participants to provide some of this. Webfeet conducted a number of writing contests which generated competition. The Quiz Thread also gives The Mote some wonderful game-like diversions.

150. Indiana Jones - 9/7/2000 3:48:40 PM

Right, Doc, and that's why I think it has to be opened up so that more people can contribute. No one has the time and energy to keep everyone "entertained" week to week just for the fun of it.

Plus, if one person does provide most of the site's "oomph," then others feel as though it's a one-man show.

I've been in RL organizations before and experienced the same thing. You work really hard for about a year because some dynamo comes along, then he burns out, and takes the entire organization with him.

151. DocBrown - 9/7/2000 3:52:23 PM

In the Quiz Thread, some good material has died on the vine because the thread moved along too quickly.

If we want to increase the entertainment interactions at The Mote, perhaps we need two quiz threads. One could be for trivia, the other for brain teasers.

152. God . - 9/7/2000 4:12:41 PM

Oh, what the fuck. I never could resist a good policy discussion. If the Mote wants to attract and retain the best (and put a definitive end to this stagnation), the following steps ought to be taken:

Stinky's 147 makes sense. Cal and Wabbit need to be spayed. Cal because unlike most of the other powers that be, she weighs in on every conceivable issue of Mote governance and virtually always gets her way. (And if you think it's because she's particularly insightful or articulate, you really are inbred and deluded.) Wabbit because, nice as she is, she lacks the integrity, honesty, objectivity and consistency required of somebody in her position. One set of rules applies to the 'regulars' and another set to the rest. Of course newbies aren't going to put up with that sort of bullshit for long. It's time for a new Sheriff in town, I vote Irv. Although he can blow calls with the best of them, he isn't prone to Wabbit's dramatic tantrums.

The Policy thread needs to be put and kept on the front page. The argument has been made that that turns of newbies. A year later, the Mote is becoming a stagnant Moat and we need to put democracy back in the hands of the people. On the front page. It's the most interesting thread since the Censorship thread, why hide it?

Nobody should host more than one thread unless nobody else wants the job. This bullshit where Cal suggests that Jen's thread be taken away from her (an idea immediately adopted by Wabbit) is just the sort of corrupt incestuous slime that turns fair-minded people off. If you want to use an existing thread to celebrate your anniversary so badly, why not use the jobs thread, which has become little more than a circle jerk for friends of Cal.

153. God . - 9/7/2000 4:12:51 PM

I'd also like to know what investigation has been done into Stinky's alleged stalking of Mary Beth. I find it disturbing that someone who might have done something like that has been promoted so rapidly to a position of responsibility within the Mote hierarchy.

Or, maintain the status quo, keep the centralized government paradigm, with the same off-putting shmoes at the helm, and continue to stagnate. And we'll have this same conversation next year. See you then.

154. PelleNilsson - 9/7/2000 4:15:58 PM

So God is back. So frightfully uninteresting.

155. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 4:16:29 PM

So God is not dead after all.

156. vonKreedon - 9/7/2000 4:17:17 PM

I have been posting less for a couple of reasons:

1- The boring same old recycled reader's digest version of arguments that make up so much of what is posted. We've gotten so bored with the arguments that they tend to be reduced to reference rather than actual argument. The surrounding invective; see: ...all you leftist Klowntoon impeached rapist enablers... and ...moronic dipshit Bushit artists..., then comes to completely dominate the debate and the point is moot.

2- I'm spending a lot less time in front of a computer. In fact I'm only now coming out of having an aversion to being in front of a computer.

3- The Mote's posting format, particularly the 2,000 character limit, works against posting (and reading) lengthy thesis based arguments on positions. This is what I like to read and write best. I believe I would read and write more if the editing window, in Check for Dust, was much bigger and the posted column width was 50-100% wider.

The reasons I post when I do:
1- People do respond to the arguments that I put forward. This response is both the basic that I get a reaction and also that the reactions mostly address the actual argument that I am making, rather than an argument that the Dems might be making. But I do so get annoyed at having this response prefaced with all you leftist Klowntoon impeached rapist enablers.

2- When the wits get into high gear the feel of this place is phenomenal. I used to regularly get people coming to my office door to see if I had actually fallen out my chair and was now rolling on the floor lauging my ass off.

157. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 4:19:22 PM

Chrissakes...first I'm scruffy, then I'm a schmoe...just don't call me a putz.

158. vonKreedon - 9/7/2000 4:22:10 PM

I've tried to recruit several friends of mine to post at the Mote. They have, almost unanimously, said that they took a look, but soo much of the interactions and sub-texts were obviously in jokes if not incestuously self-referencial that they would not put in the time to decypher the sub-text and develop the history that would enable them to participate enjoyably. Bummer. I don't know what to do about that, since much of the highly enjoyable wit is certainly self-referential.

159. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 4:22:26 PM

Forgot boring...haha...this is actually interesting...

160. CalGal - 9/7/2000 4:24:01 PM

vK,

Not only that, but the injokes and subtext are part of almost any forum. It's part of the attraction.

Also, I doubt that it's true that this is why they didn't join--although it may have been the reason they gave. Most people just aren't going to be interested in online forums.

161. vonKreedon - 9/7/2000 4:28:32 PM

Cal - These are friends who are interested in engaging in on-line discussions on politics, religion etc. The problem is finding an forum that hooks them with the right feel so that they actually participate. This feel includes not just subjects and the personalities discussing the subjects, but also the look and feel of the interface and the look and feel of the community. What I'm hearing is that the look and feel of the Mote's community is not hooking my friends.

162. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 4:32:57 PM

Nostradamus makes some good points. But they will be ignored, as usual.

163. PsychProf - 9/7/2000 4:36:55 PM

Stone...his posts were indeed interesting.

164. rubberducky - 9/7/2000 4:41:55 PM

i agree PP.

in a "look-at-me, look-at-me" sorta way

165. CalGal - 9/7/2000 4:43:05 PM

vK,

Oh, if they were already used to forums then that makes it the "bar" or "club" problem--namely, that there's no pleasing everyone.

I dunno what the answer is--or if there is an answer at all. We've been through a year, and until the summer time I thought things were very active and thriving--despite our lack of promotion. But recently things have slowed due to a major dearth of regulars. I think the boredom factor is defintely part of it.

166. Wombat - 9/7/2000 4:46:57 PM

If Rosetta likes someone's posts...well, that's not a good sign.

Vk:

It's simple. Get some friends who are "with it." (g)

167. PelleNilsson - 9/7/2000 4:53:14 PM

PP and ducky

Let's get specific. What did you find interesting in God's posts? Apart from what they tell us about God, of course. Which we have known for a long time.

168. Nostradamus - 9/7/2000 5:29:53 PM

Oh, before I go, perhaps I should add a couple of suggestions that actually have a snowball's chance in hell of being implemented:

User profiles. Click on a name, see their profile (including photos). If you don't want to have one, don't. But the option should be available.

Get rid of the white space on the right side (does anybody really use 480x640 resolution?) None of the other websites I visit seem to leave a big blank space on the right side.

Look at me? Oh well, if you insist ...



Pelle, relax old-timer. I don't know what you could have learned about me from my last post other than I sometimes absentmindedly type 'of' when I mean 'off'. My birth father lives in Sweden. Lovely country you have.

Let me know when you need more help.

Oh, and I'm posting under Nostradamus because they disabled God without cause (yet again). Get a clue, people! ==):-)

Ciao!

169. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 5:32:37 PM

That's not you, silly.

170. alistairconnor - 9/7/2000 5:33:34 PM

The limited column width is a feature, not a bug. Why do newspapers have narrow columns? Because it makes it easier to read. The eye can embrace the whole width of the line, or even several lines at a glance. Longer lines are much more tiring to read.

171. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 5:40:02 PM

Why the 800 word length. Can't you make it 1200?

172. jonesatlaw - 9/7/2000 5:41:09 PM

Just for kicks, I took a cyber stroll past the old neighborhood. The place has gone to pot. I think literally, because the posters there seem to be under the influence of something. Well, seriously- The reason I came here, and the reasons I stay are these-

• there are people here that have vastly different experiences, knowledge and viewpoints. I can't think of another place on the web or irl where I could participate in such an ecclectic and erudite forum.
  

173. CalGal - 9/7/2000 5:41:37 PM

Yeah, we tried that once and it made me feel like Tabletalk.

As for the profiles--I did come up with a little idea on those lines that could be used if we wanted to, but I don't like the idea of it being mandatory. And we have discussed the email contact idea extensively in the past. Overall, I thought the consensus was that we don't want to force people to provide emails for anything other than administrative contact. Beyond that, there is still dispute on whether or not we want emails to be offered as part of our standard interface, rather than posted by the user.

I go back and forth on this--it seems harmless if it's optional, but at the same time I reeeeeaaaally don't like the TT standard of allowing anyone to contact you for any reason. Ewwwww. Creates an expectation of response that I'm not happy with.

On the post length--the real reason I'd like it longer is for tables. But I don't think it's a real hindrance generally.

174. MsIvoryTower - 9/7/2000 5:54:12 PM

JJ

I remember election night '96, that was tremendous. My first cyberspace party. I think that more than anything else convinced me to keep going back to the old Slate site, in spite of limited time and less than enthusiastic responses to my commentary.

Alistair, Calgal, Irving

What fun reading. Thanks for the refresher stories.

Et al.

I really agree that new blood is great, but also that more diverse topical discussions are important. Finally, I'm sympathetic to the cries of boredom, but am convinced that's part of the natural cycle of internet chat life. One gets hooked, stays and continues to find the interactions totally engrossing, then gradually hears oneself repeating the same things, and hearing others say the same things repeatedly. Boredom becomes the name of the game at that point.

Personally, I've found being less active this last year has helped to resolve that issue for me. Now a largely new cast of players are here, and it's interesting to participate again.

The moral of my story? We should expect long term posters to flow in and out of the discussion community from time to time in order to regroup, refresh and rejuvenate.

175. lemwalker - 9/7/2000 6:28:30 PM

I am a lurker. 'Tis true! Come here almost everyday. And though known personally for a loud profane manner, don't often type anything. Met a few of the 'moties' when we were 'fraygrants'.
Have so little in common, it seems, with most inhabitants of this cyber den. Live less than 40 miles south of the NW tip of the US. Choose not to get tv. Used to be no reception, but with dishes that excuse is out the window. So get most of my news off the PC. Am convinced there are few if any non-dysfunctional members of our species. If by skill, luck, or sheer exhaustion we solve any problem, we immediately find a new one.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" and "use it up, make it do, or do without". This place is just fine. If it changes that will be fine too. And if it disappears, well we could get used to that too.

176. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 6:53:19 PM

I just saw Eliot803 in TT, Cellar. He does exist.

177. CalGal - 9/7/2000 6:55:29 PM

Lem,

I hope this doesn't terrify you, but you fascinate me. You come here every day and never say a thing?

178. alistairconnor - 9/7/2000 6:58:59 PM

I'm quite surprised that we've come through a year in good shape. People keep talking about how it's slow at the moment - but guess what? It isn't.

In the past 28 days : 105 IDs have posted, and over 10000 posts. That's above average. Tomorrow I'll run a few more stats. I think the traffic has been pretty constant over the past year. I'm interested in the ratio of lurk to post (as measured by the number of page hits vs posts) and in the proportion of unregistered lurkers... I expect that number to be small, and that's the one we have to push up.

To get there from here : yeah, "we" need to do some promotion. Registering with search sites is all very well, and will probably bring in a few strays. Rose's idea about spamming interesting people from other boards is good too. Go for it!

But long term, what we need is to get links from interesting sites. Perhaps we could make a list of candidate sites, i.e. which are viewed by interesting people, and have a "links" page. Each one would have to be approached and sweet-talked. I can create a links page here which could be maintained by any thread host, so we could reciprocate.

179. CalGal - 9/7/2000 7:02:36 PM

You mean that we go to them and ask if they'll link us in?

That's good news about the numbers. It was my perception that June and July were quite slow, but I'm happy to be wrong.

Just now I posted a few places in TT inviting people to come here and check out our anniversary thread. A lot of people might like reading about How We Did It. That reminds me, I should have mentioned it in the Rabbit Hole thread.

180. lemwalker - 9/7/2000 7:05:59 PM

Well, I talk to myself. I agree with most some of the time, and disagree with some most of the time. So what! I have abdicated any judicial rights regarding others, excluding spouse, kids, and any hapless bastard that winds up under my command. It is fuel for my own opinion. Which, like an anatomical feature, stinks. The key being to express one without be considered the other.

181. winstonsmith - 9/7/2000 9:24:48 PM

Congratulations to everyone who built this forum.

I'm not around much but I do lurk from time to time and post occasionally. I have very little extra time in my life but I do like knowing that this place is here when I do have a little time to check in.

WS

182. joezan - 9/7/2000 10:15:15 PM

Hey - great to see your name here, Winston.

183. DanDillon - 9/7/2000 10:16:17 PM

The ingenuity around here is inspiring. Makes me tingly all over.

I haven't posted all that much simply because The Mote has not ranked as a high priority lately. There was a time when I'd go through withdrawal if I didn't get a post in or at least lurk a bit. Now, though, it is what it is. I'm on to other projects in life, such as being married, working, writing a play, going to the john, eating meals, petting my cat... pretty much everything except visiting The Mote. Sure, it's a choice. And at this point, I'm unwilling to really do much of anything about it. I used to like Cheetos a great deal, too. Things change.

Sure, I love some of you. I respect all of you. Oddly, though, I know none of you. What am I doing here?

184. DanDillon - 9/7/2000 10:18:15 PM

This thread here is simply the latest greatest thing. It'll tarnish shortly. Human nature, folks. We're odd creatures.

185. Cellar Door - 9/7/2000 10:20:23 PM

I saw Elliot (kissing Santa Claus) myself, Rosie.

186. joezan - 9/7/2000 10:20:33 PM

Dan:

I bet that once you think about it, you'll realize you know many people here better than you know many you've interacted with for years irl.

187. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 10:22:03 PM

Wow, the well-thought-out posts here are very interesting and encouraging.

I think it all boils down to something Indy implied: change is good. We should be looking for new ways to do things, new ways to attract people and new topics (a suggestion also well put by the Ms).

Yes, this place has become like a comfortable old show... perhaps too comfortable. Let's "change the paradigm" or whatever the popular term is these days.

I think Alistair's link idea is excellent. There are link exchange programs all over the net (I belong to a dozen on my RL site). Links to our page will also increase our search engine placement -- on some engines, it is the single most important thing the bots search for.

I think we should listen to what anyone says. God made some interesting points, and shouldn't be automatically dismissed. God, you're very wrong about wabbit, whose integrity is unparalleled. And thanks for the nomination, but I don't have the time to spend here any more. Plus, I'm more in favor of new people taking over.

Speaking of new people, it seems that we have actively encouraged newbies to host threads. New participants like AytchMan, SheRex, mandolin and mintcar have hosted threads, and just last week, I saw a move to get jimbo to be a host.

I think one conclusion we can draw from many of the earlier posts is that we shouldn't agonize over old-timers leaving. We all move on in our lives, and it's part of the natural evolution of a forum. What we should direct our attention to is attracting and keeping new participants.

God/Nostradamus suggested we create optional profiles. We've discussed this in the past, and it always seemed most were in favor. Well, let's do it. It's a good idea, and we need some changes if only to shake things up.

188. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/2000 10:25:56 PM

Cal:
How do we make that [getting out our creation story] happen? What is involved? I might move our posts on the logistics, they seem relevant.

I think we should work the posts into a story, which could then be made into a press release. It's the story of a community that wouldn't die. People love stories like that. Get it made as a made-for-TV movie (I want Dick Butkus to play my part).

What do we push? Well, we do have a larger share of literate, intelligent posters than other boards I've seen. We have a vast store of knowledge to draw upon here, and people who enjoy an intellectual challenge will find that attractive (it is, imho, what initially attracted many of us).

Joe Message # 186:
Very true.

Dan:
There's nothing wrong with moving on. And it is no reflection on you or on the forum.

189. joezan - 9/7/2000 10:26:46 PM

Amen.

190. jonesatlaw - 9/7/2000 11:44:24 PM

Well, as I was saying before family life interrupted...
Things I like about The Mote-

• The standing threads. I am not active in several of the old standbys, and parts go whizzing over my head- most of language and the Slow Thread for example. But I have been able to pick up some tidbits of useful knowledge, or at least interesting things from people whose learning is greater than mine, or at least rather different.
• I like the limit on posts. There is an old saying-All madmen write letters of more than 6 pages. It is not diagnostic, but is a symptom to be watched. The post length doesn't often cause a real limitation on the expression of ideas, but strikes a nice balance between BBS featuring endless screeds by people who should edit more before posting, and the "what are you wearing" "Any hot chicks in here?" stuff one finds in chat rooms. When I try to explain the Mote to others, I find them trying to lump us into one category or the other. We don't really fit either model and I think that is just fine.
• The balance between community and familiarity on the one hand, and a fairly open approach to newcommers. I remember Irv warmly welcoming me to the other place, and others responding to my first tenative posts who had clearly read and thought about what I had said. This was true of those who thought I was all wet, and those who agreed with me.
  
• The ability of most of the posters here to adjust to the tone of the various threads. People who gleefully dive into the rough and tumble of politics can be kind, personalable and genteel in more personal threads. There's a maturity there on the part of most posters that is refreshing. It's sort of like the old Senate, a bit clubby, and where folks who were at daggers drawn one minute are old friends the next.
  

  191. jonesatlaw - 9/7/2000 11:45:14 PM

• The community policing side of the site. There have been heated and genuine conflicts, but I would say that charges of an oligarchy are exaggerated. I think that as much of a consensus as can be reasonably achieved has been in the cases I have knowledge of.
  
• Last, but certainly not least is the wit and humor. For a site without a direct comic purpose, I have laughed out loud at what's been posted here more than at some places that are supposed to be witty or funny.

192. jonesatlaw - 9/7/2000 11:53:24 PM

193. CalGal - 9/8/2000 12:53:39 AM

Jones,

Wow, great posts. Love the Senate analogy.

You and the Ms both bring up the notion of different topics. I've been wondering the same thing, but I'm always stopped by the notion that we might actually want familiarity. (g) But then I am terminally indecisive.

The structured debate has been mentioned so many times that I suppose we might want to consider it. To me, it seems antithetical to the nature of the forum, to limit participation. But I certainly wouldn't be opposed to trying it. Shouldn't people be able to ask questions, though? How would that work?

194. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 12:57:31 AM

I think we should go ahead and try anything new, whether it be debates or any other new idea. What can it hurt?

New topics are always good... we've thoroughly talked out the old ones. Look how much activity this thread is getting (or just about any new thread, for that matter).

195. CalGal - 9/8/2000 12:57:33 AM

Irv,

I think one conclusion we can draw from many of the earlier posts is that we shouldn't agonize over old-timers leaving.

Yes, I agree. It's good to consider them from time to time, to make sure there wasn't anything that could have been prevented or something that indicates a systemic problem. But generally, we keep coming back to the same reason: they've moved on, they were offended, they didn't like someone here, they were bored. Heck, there's nothing terrible in that--nothing that attempts to fix wouldn't make worse.

There are link exchange programs all over the net (I belong to a dozen on my RL site).

I don't know what this is. Could you, er, link one in?

196. jonesatlaw - 9/8/2000 1:21:58 AM

With the debates idea, I was hoping that we could get some of our most respected posters to get some serious content in, and to weed out the distractions at first. I was hoping that we could cut out some of the silly distractions and blind alleys that sometimes weigh down a discussion by letting someone with the the experience and data at their fingertips go at one another. Then we could open the floodgates to questions from the rest of us, and Moties could take sides.
I mentioned biotech because there seem to be many good arguments to be made on a wealth of issues, but few seem to have much technical knowledge about the subject. Then with some grounding in the possible and the existing data, the forum could discuss the broader implications. If we pick a hot enough subject we could prehaps examine it from several perspectives. For example the ethical problems associated with the use of bioengineered orgainisms, then a look at the issue from the economic view, and finally a free for all and vote. Who wouldn't want to be able to crow about winning a debate and for once having numbers to prove it?

197. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 1:23:31 AM

Heck, there's nothing terrible in that--nothing that attempts to fix wouldn't make worse.

I'd go one step further and say there's no problem which could be fixed. It's the natural evolution of a community. Our turnover has been smaller than most communities, actually.

As for link exchanges, they are everywhere. A quick search at Yahoo for "link exchange" turned up 1 category and 146 sites. Here's one yahoo-like site which nets my business a fair amount of traffic:

asiaco

My business has been lax at posting the return links (we'll get around to it) but we are linked from quite a few places.

It takes a bit of searching and registering, and then you have free links from all over the web.

198. CalGal - 9/8/2000 1:25:39 AM

I'd go one step further and say there's no problem which could be fixed.

I was taking that for granted, actually.

I'll check out the link. If we did this, where would we post our links in exchange?

199. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 1:35:19 AM

Cal:
The standard place is at the bottom of our front page. Some sites reduce the size of the logos to tiny boxes. If we had a lot of links, that would probably be the best way to handle it.

200. CalGal - 9/8/2000 1:42:02 AM

Irv,

I'm reading up on this, thanks for the help.

BTW, I added three links to the side of "birthing stories". Any other recollections, toss them on in.

201. CalGal - 9/8/2000 1:44:28 AM

One other question--there seem to be services that provide more traffic for (gack) money. Are these fairly successful? If they are, and they aren't too expensive.....well, we do have our startup fund.

202. PelleNilsson - 9/8/2000 2:12:48 AM

This is a great discussion!

On the subject of getting fresh blood, it comes down to two things: (1) getting people to visit the site and (2) getting the visitors to turn into active posters.

Regarding (2) I think one way to go is to have a faster turnover of the non-perennial threads. As it is they tend to linger on well beyond their best-before date. We do need a kind of consensus to start a new thread. I don't think one is needed to RIP a thread. The experience is that when a dying thread is RIPed it will see a surge of last-minute posts and then it will go to sleep again. The more diverse threads we have over a given time span, the more chance that we hit on subjects that will turn lurkers into posters.

203. TrialShark - 9/8/2000 2:26:07 AM

Hey.

Has it been a year already? Wow. Time really does fly when you're having fun. Or maybe that's just a sign of advancing age.

Speaking of having fun, Honolulu beckons.

Aloha!

204. CalGal - 9/8/2000 2:27:58 AM

Hey, if you have a car make sure you check out the north side of the island.

205. SnowOwl - 9/8/2000 2:34:39 AM

Congratulations and thank you to all of those involved in developing this place and keeping it running so well during the past year.

This is a very interesting discussion, but I really haven't got anything to add to it. I've got no idea how to attract and retain new posters other than attempting to keep a diversity of topics which might be of interest to a variety of people.

206. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 2:54:49 AM

DanD : Message # 74
May I be so bold as to suggest that The Mote has become nothing more than the corner bar, in shambles, where a cast of scruffy regulars assembles and mutters the same dialogue day after day.

Message # 183
I'm on to other projects in life, such as being married, working, writing a play, going to the john, eating meals, petting my cat...

Let me guess... #74 was before going to the john, and #183 was after.

Irv: Message # 188 (I want Dick Butkus to play my part).

Dick Buttkiss? You want to make it into a porn movie?

207. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:01:48 AM

I've got two bright ideas this morning -- ah, three now I come to think of it.

1) Let's open a Promotion thread - where people of good will, and preferably a bit of free time, can brainstorm, organise AND ACT ON IT. I've got a feeling it should be a subscription thread (something I created as a meltdown containment measure, but hasn't been used since that initial spat... as far as I know!) -- the reason for this is that everyone registered for the thread is listed in the sidebar, with the intention, in this case, of limiting the proportion of hangers-on, lurkers, and cheerleaders, and to encourage the Nike spirit.

(These remarks are aimed at no-one in general, and everyone in particular).

208. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 3:09:47 AM

Cal:
One other question--there seem to be services that provide more traffic for (gack) money. Are these fairly successful? If they are, and they aren't too expensive.....well, we do have our startup fund.

No, Cal, they are a rip off. They only offer what we can get for free from others... registering with search engines, key words, and link exchanges. They play on the ignorance and laziness of the average net user.

I suppose I'm becoming somewhat of an expert on these things, as I'm one of those rare characters who makes a very good living off a highly-profitable dot com business.

Pelle:
I think one way to go is to have a faster turnover of the non-perennial threads.

At the old place, I made it a policy to start at least one new thread each week, and to kill off at least one thread a week. I think we need more and shorter limited-focus threads around here.

Alistair:
And who would play you?


I get a warm, fuzzy feeling seeing a thread with names like TrialShark and SnowOwl posting. It reminds me of everything I like about this place.

209. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:10:43 AM

2) A Debate Thread format, in line with Lawjones's idea (msg num=192>).
I can develop a variant which allows only specifically registered IDs to post, and everyone else to read. The thread host would have the ability to register posting IDs for the thread, in addition to the usual thread hosting functions.
Inevitably, others will want to comment on the debate as it goes, so there will probably have to be a parallel thread for this, otherwise another thread will end up being hijacked for the purpose.
If it turns out that the idea doesn't work, no harm done, the moderator just won't create any threads of that type. But I think it has potential.
If the voting business turns out to be important, I could write software for that too; but personally I think it sucks.

210. CalGal - 9/8/2000 3:20:02 AM

Irv,

Oh, on cursory examination they seemed different from the automatic registering tools. They were a monthly fee thang.

I found two sites that seemed interesting as a resource for me to read--when you have time, could you give a cursory inspection and see if they seem worth it?

Listbot, free forum for website owners, discussing marketing, promotion, etc.

Selfpromotion.com, a how to site as well as a freebie search engine application automator. But he excludes Yahoo from his list of search engines, because he thinks that the Yahoo application should be very carefully created.


Alistair--left you an email, when you have time could you check it out? I finally got my computer working enough to get my old code uploaded to the dev site and ran into a small glitch.

211. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:20:09 AM

3) What was number three? Oh yeah...
It's clear we need more pro-active moderation... Life moves on and everything, and we all know that Wabbit has excellent real life reasons for not being on line so much, and I don't think we're ready to let her go...

Luckily, we thought of all this nearly a year ago, and I created a second-level moderation function, which gives the authorised moderator the right to create threads and delete or move posts. No-one was ever accorded these rights (as far as I know), but perhaps it's time to call for nominations?

212. CalGal - 9/8/2000 3:23:34 AM

I've been thinking the same thing, and I'm glad you've already got the function built.

Possibilities: Arky, Pelle, Sto, Slackjaw, SnowOwl, Christin, Diva, Aytch, Jones, Greystoke....well, it's a long list. In fact, I'm not sure there has to be just one person?

213. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 3:24:14 AM

Another thing I enjoy about this place is the chance to meet other members of the community in person. This year, in my various travels, I've had the chance to meet for the first time Slackjaw, JudithAtHome, AytchMan, 19RBI, and our resident technical genius Alistair, as well as seeing cherished old friends such as PsychProf, Wabbit, ArielTheSprite. Spudboy, and MsIvoryTower. These aren't just names on a computer screen, but real people who have enriched my life through their treasured friendship and wit.

I'm working my way through the whole community and will try to meet everyone eventually (no, Arky, I haven't forgotten my promise).

214. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:42:54 AM

One last thing before I go to the market...

Nostradamus was right about at least one thing : Irving is the source of all moderation authority here (it's written into the software, only he can create or revoke moderators...) i.e. he is three echelons higher than God.

215. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 3:52:24 AM

Cal:
The monthly fee thing is a scam. Occasionally, you need to resubmit to a search engine... but most submissions I made nearly two years ago are maintaining their top positions. The whole idea of checking monthly to make sure the ranking is up there and charging a fee for that is a joke.

I definitely don't recommend automated submissions. It takes a little more time, but submissions should be made manually, and tailored for each search engine's strengths. It is also important to get it right the first time (with all the keywords in the right place) since replacng a submission can be impossible. So we shouldn't run off and start submitting things to search engines.

The Listbot site sounds good. My connection is so slow right now I can't look at any sites. Two other similar sites I highly recommend (especially the first) are:

Add Me -- a great newsletter, well worth the free price of subscription

Market Position Newsletter

Alistair:
Of course, I have always been available for emergency back-up moderation, although I haven't had to step in over the past year. I don't mind continuing this role, though I don't want to be any more active. I also think wabbit has done a fine job, considering she has a life, and look forward to her continued leadership.

216. theDiva - 9/8/2000 8:33:19 AM

I listed us with Yahoo, Altavista (though I think Ad did this, too), Lycos, and a few teeny weeny ones via Lycos. I'll do a couple more today. Not sure what good it will do, but now it's done.

217. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 8:43:33 AM

While at the market, I was struck by a Bleedin' Obvious thought : we've got a perfectly good spam engine that we've never used.

I propose that we draught a quick anniversary mailshot, inviting everyone who ever registered to come to the party.

The return address will be gatekeeper@themote.com --are you ready for this, Indy?

Some will bounce - 30% ? - because the e-mail address no longer exists - we need to take care with these because the user might still be active.

A handful will want to unsubscribe. Fine, we'll take them out of the database.

Others might want to stay subscribed, but be excluded from any future mail shots - I think we should propose this option.

And hopefully, a few will come back and say hello.

There are 605 registered IDs, it would be great if half came to the party.

218. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 8:47:14 AM

... and I just changed the thread title, "one year anniversary" is the sort of tautology that makes me grind my teeth.


(Sorry for being a snob.)

219. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 8:48:56 AM

Diva:
Please see my Message # 215 before submitting to any other search engines. An improperly worded submission can be nearly impossible to undo, and can lead to our site getting buried when a search is done. It is very important to take keywords into consideration when submitting.

220. theDiva - 9/8/2000 9:09:44 AM

Irv

I figured. I posted the summary early yesterday, and nobody bit, so I just used a variation on it.

"Vibrant, lively general discussion forum built and staffed entirely by volunteers and participants. Politics, law, the arts, philosophy, and more."

221. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 9:17:38 AM

Deev:
The words that will be most important on the search engine are those typed in by people searching for "vibrant," "lively," or "general." (The search engines look for the first words in a description, and then go on, givving decreasing importance to following words.)

It would be much better to have something along the lines of:

"Discussion forum: politics, law, art, language, movies, international issues, and more."

Following that we should add a short line which defines our community in a way best designed to attract curious seekers of intelligent discussion.

Note that I amended the topics to cover our most popular range more thoroughly.

222. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 9:19:33 AM

Re: Message # 167, PelleNilsson.

Let's get specific. What did you find interesting in God's posts? Apart from what they tell us about God, of course. Which we have known for a long time.

well, what they tell us about "God" is what i meant by the "look at me" comment.

moreover, i like the profiles idea, but don't feel it is actually necessary.

223. theDiva - 9/8/2000 9:21:30 AM

well, heck, Irv, where were you yesterday when I decided to take this bold and rash move? Damned time difference.

224. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 9:25:31 AM

well, heck, Irv, where were you yesterday when I decided to take this bold and rash move?

Sleeping, Deev.... sorry.

225. theDiva - 9/8/2000 9:39:31 AM

And you call yourself superhuman. Another icon toppled.

226. PsychProf - 9/8/2000 9:44:21 AM

Irv sleeps?

227. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 9:44:29 AM

So, we've got a quorum, let's have a draft of an anniversary spam e-mail! To keep things moving along, I'd like to send it out tonight (in about 8 hours).

228. TheWizardofWhimsy - 9/8/2000 9:44:49 AM

Always
ignore
the
man
behind
the
curtain!
.

229. TheWizardofWhimsy - 9/8/2000 9:45:51 AM

rubberducky- Answer my email, please.

230. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 9:46:37 AM

OK PP, set your impressive neurones to work...

Normally, sending it would be the gatekeeper's or the moderator's job, but we've never done a full-scale mail-out before, and I can pretty well guarantee there'll be technical problems I'll have to fix on the fly.

231. PelleNilsson - 9/8/2000 9:49:17 AM

He never slept in the Fray.

232. PelleNilsson - 9/8/2000 9:51:22 AM

Go ahead with the spam. Don't publish the text here. It will cause endless squibbles.

233. theDiva - 9/8/2000 9:52:19 AM

Pelle Nilsson, Man of Action

234. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 9:53:14 AM

Hey, I was paid not to sleep at the old place.

235. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 9:55:14 AM

Pelle Nilsson, Man of Action (chainsaw sold separately)

236. theDiva - 9/8/2000 9:55:54 AM

heeheehee....

hey, connor, yours is a good idea. I say run with it.

237. PsychProf - 9/8/2000 9:57:44 AM

Is this too geeky....do we need more info?

Mote Birthday Brouhaha needs you. Let's celebrate the First Year of The Mote's Freedom from corporate slavery. Add a post to the "Anniversary Thread" and renew old friendships and animosities.

238. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 9:58:00 AM

... but who were you paid not to sleep with?

Nice work if you can get it.

239. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 9:58:04 AM

well, i'm not too keen on spam mail, but once is ok, i guess. i sure hope we don't keep finding reasons to do it.

(WoW - done and done!)

240. DocBrown - 9/8/2000 10:00:05 AM

Diva, I've just gotta ask . . .

What made you choose vibrant as your first word to describe The Mote?

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this question?






Just joking, Diva. I, for one, appreciate your efforts. Thank you for your spontaneous initiative and enthusiasm.

241. DocBrown - 9/8/2000 10:01:28 AM

I almost said "gushing enthusiasm."

242. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 10:04:28 AM

Yeah, Deev. Doc has reminded me that, in my haste to point out what a good submission should have, I neglected to applaud your initiative and team spirit... qualities we desperately need around here. My deepest apologies.

243. theDiva - 9/8/2000 10:04:42 AM

Doc

Oh hell. Call it girlish hyperbole.

244. theDiva - 9/8/2000 10:05:17 AM

Irv

I just love it when you grovel. (No apologies necessary.)

245. Indiana Jones - 9/8/2000 10:18:18 AM

I think Christin would make a good choice for "moderator-lite," though I would view the position as just being able to create threads.

I think post deletion should remain a thread host's prerogative, with the main moderator as being the only person who can step in. In principle IMO, thread host autonomy needs to be maintained as much as possible because it's already a pretty thankless job without having too many people second-guessing you.

Another possibility is allowing anyone to create a thread, but giving the moderator (and submoderator) the ability to veto it. For example, the thread request is made via form, an email is sent to the moderator, and the thread is created some time period later (24-48 hours?) automatically, provided the request isn't kaboshed.

Alistair: I would be willing to help with any programming you need to do as far as new features like profiles. I don't do active server pages but do know SQL and work with databases all the time, so I imagine I could pick it up pretty quickly.

As far as the emails, I think that's a great idea. I agree we shouldn't spam people too often, but it would be nice to get a more accurate read on live IDs. Also, the hosts I recently contacted didn't seem bothered and at least one seemed appreciative.

BTW, all, it looks like I, too, am going to be spending less time here because of both personal and professional concerns. I hope to continue doing what I can to help out, but my posts may be fewer and farther between.

246. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 10:54:06 AM

You're on, Indy. If you want to do a profiles page, and if such is the will of the masses, then good, let's correspond on that.

(The main reason it never got done before is because I think it's a bad idea... but who am I to stand in the way of the bulldozer of progress, eh?)

247. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 11:01:57 AM

how about telling us why they are a bad idea, AC

248. PsychProf - 9/8/2000 11:03:40 AM

I guess my Message # 237...SUCKS...haha..I love The Mote

249. christipeters - 9/8/2000 11:15:51 AM

I, for one, appreciated the reminder. So I am here to say:

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY TO THE MOTE!!!

(who's got the champaign?)

250. ElliottRW - 9/8/2000 11:20:08 AM

Hello everyone!

I'd show up more often except that the 11:00am service conflicts with my son's nap time.

251. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 11:20:58 AM

The spam engine is pumping out gunk as I speak (so to speak). If nothing arrives in the next few minutes... well, I blew it or something.

252. ElliottRW - 9/8/2000 11:22:10 AM

Whoops. Wrong excuse. Please disregard #250.

Happy Anniversary Mote. I still visit from time-to-time. Hopefully, some day, I will be able to spend more time here.

253. DocBrown - 9/8/2000 11:23:08 AM

I don't have any champagne, Christi. But . . . (close your ears) . . .

Whuuuurrruuuuurrr!!

I'm serving Margaritas at my place. Care for salt on your glass?

254. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 11:23:36 AM

... sorreeee ... yes, that was the spam engine chewing server resources for half an hour.

I'll put a delay in it next time...

255. DocBrown - 9/8/2000 11:27:06 AM

I just got my SPAM.

It's a good thing that Margaritas make a good chaser. They can help me choke down anything.

256. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 11:28:09 AM

Looks like some people got the message... The gag is that I didn't. Course, I've changed e-mail accounts (and countries) since I registered for the Mote, and the only way to change your registered e-mail address is to e-mail the gatekeeper...
I suppose we could let people change their registered e-mail in the profile page, but possibly it's a security risk.

257. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/2000 11:34:05 AM

PP:
I just got my spam, and your suggestion was used as given. So I guess it sucked just enough to use.

258. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 11:39:25 AM

As to why I think user profiles are a bad idea.

I like the slightly disembodied nature of the site - nobody is obliged to give out any real-life information, nobody has to expose themself to the possibility of unwanted e-mail, we can relate to each other strictly on the basis of what is said here, in public, rather than having lots of back-channel e-mail clouding the picture. That, plus the linear format of the threads, gives us a high degree of transparency : what you see is what you get. I think this is a vital part of what makes the site work the way it does.

Sure, if we implement a profiles feature, no-one will be obliged to submit personal information and an e-mail - but I'm sure that a fair proportion of people will, and I think that may start us on a slippery slope towards being just another chat site.

From another side, profiles would push the emphasis of the site toward personalities rather than ideas, and to my taste, we're already far enough that way.

259. marshame - 9/8/2000 11:41:20 AM

marshame reporting as ordered, per e-mail

Happy Aniversary all!

Gee, is this like where the celebrities say "Thanks, E!"

260. marshame - 9/8/2000 11:44:26 AM

To me, the Mote is kinda like a cigarette (when I used to smoke):

The decision is: shall I call our attorney to find out why he won't call their attorney to try and get this contract signed, or shall I play in the Mote?

Shall I try and figure out how to get an uncooperative dept. to develope an implementation plan for a peice of software, or shall I idle in the Mote?

Shall I balance my checkbook or read the Mote?


The choice is obvious!!! The Mote: a procrastinator's dream, and it doesn't cause lung cancer!

261. Fraaankster - 9/8/2000 11:50:04 AM

Happy Anniversary Mote !

Thank you Mote for all the great friendships that this place has made possible.

I've got to go.

You're funny, Irv.

262. christipeters - 9/8/2000 11:52:01 AM

" The Mote: a procrastinator's dream, and it doesn't cause lung cancer!"

Hey! A slogan for The Mote!

263. Jeff Mack - 9/8/2000 11:53:14 AM

Happy anniversary Mote! Hope you have many more.

264. DanDillon - 9/8/2000 11:55:17 AM

There's nothing wrong with moving on. And it is no reflection on you or on the forum.

Irv,
I should certainly hope not.

Btw, I appreciate your sharing your knowledge about how search engine keywords work. A fairly basic equation, I suspect, is used to sort sites. But it's interesting to consider just the same.

Eddie Rabbit loves a rainy night. If you know what I mean, now try getting that tune out of your head.

265. DocBrown - 9/8/2000 11:55:21 AM

Carpal Tunnel Syndrom and eyestrain, maybe . . .

266. Dantheman - 9/8/2000 12:13:09 PM

Hi, all.

I don't expect to post in the future, as I've felt addicted to the Mote when I was here. I did receive the "spam", and wanted to tell you all that my absence is no reflection on any of you, and that I really did love being part of this community.

Take care, all.

267. marshame - 9/8/2000 12:21:49 PM

Ah ha, proof positive that you can be addicted to the Internet. But Dan, must you go "cold turkey"??

268. DocBrown - 9/8/2000 12:31:06 PM

Look at that, Dan The Man! Just what you didn't need, a question from marshame. I know what's going through your head right now.

. . . must .. . resist . . . must . . . not . . . post . . . response . . .

What harm can come from one little answer to a question? Those Maties are a harmless bunch, you know.

269. marshame - 9/8/2000 12:33:48 PM

Go ahead, Dan. Answer. You can quit anytime you want to.

270. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 1:04:46 PM

got my Spam too.

how refreshing to see curse words in an "official" e-mail.

my hat is, of course, off to AC.

271. theDiva - 9/8/2000 1:05:32 PM

DanTM

it.....is......your.....deeeeeeeeesssssstinyyyyy

272. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 2:43:48 PM

Hey Ducky, you're an ASP man, I hear. Do you want to volunteer for some new development?

There are a couple of features that have been running around my head. One is to make the site searchable -- have you done any work with full text indexing on Sql Server 7? The only searching work I've done is with Index Server, which requires static pages.

The other aspect is archiving. Everything that's been posted in the past year is still on line -nearly a gigabyte of Sql Server data. I think the dead threads should be archived to HTML -- that is, we need a batch program that pump the posts out of the database and format them into HTML pages, for example 100 posts per page. Then they could be deleted from the database, and made searchable with Index server. An Archive page would link to the first page of each archived thread.

I'm just thinking aloud, let me know if you're interested...

273. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 2:53:24 PM

good lord, AC. i haven't messed with SQL 7 at all. 6.5 some early last year (although i hear it isn't that different other than 7 is more stable)

what i've been doing for a little more than a year is mostly UI - that is to say i've mostly only worked with 2nd & 3rd tier COM objects and not the database(s) itself.

i'm not sure what it would take to do text searching. i can look at what come of the "real" developers have written - is there capacity for COM objects and/or stored procedures or is it all straight SQL? my SQL is rusty to say the least (and i have no real experience with Index Server to speak of).

274. PelleNilsson - 9/8/2000 2:57:28 PM

I got spammed twice. And the text spills over at the right (Netscape 4.5)

275. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 2:57:56 PM

Oh well. How about Javascript? I'm rusty on it myself. I was thinking of a sort of toolbar that would sit at the bottom of the page, that would paste HTML tags into the posting box, i.e. opening and closing tags for bold, italics, lists etc. Do you do that sort of stuff?

276. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:00:33 PM

?? The text spills over at the right?? No comprendo. You mean the e-mail was poorly formatted? Forward me a copy then.

You probably got two because you've got more than one ID with the same e-mail address - perhaps a thread hosting one.

I'm more worried about the people who didn't get the e-mail because their address has changed, like me.

277. Lucky - 9/8/2000 3:01:40 PM

(Poking head in)
Hello and Happy Anniversary, Moties!

278. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:07:09 PM

Indy, in a few hours I suppose you're going to be bombarded with bounced e-mails. What I'm going to do is add a couple of flags to the Authors table, one to signal "no spam" and one to signify that the e-mail address appears to be invalid. You'll be able to set these options with the moderation screen, in function of the e-mails you get.

Next, I'll do a "lost property" page, which will display all the IDs which don't have a valid e-mail address, i.e. those that you flag. People will be invited to reclaim their IDs before a cut-off date, and then we can purge the remainder. Does that sound OK?

Do you think I should add a "change e-mail" option to the profile page, or are you OK with continuing to do that manually?

279. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 3:09:06 PM

Hey, Lucky! Nice of you to drop in. We're brainstorming on how to bring in new people. Any thoughts?

280. PelleNilsson - 9/8/2000 3:11:33 PM

Alistair

If I copy it to you it will probably turn up OK. The mail had two lines, one for each paragraph, each one stretching into eternity on the right. But this does happen with other originators as well, so it's probably a Netscape problem.

You are probably right about the host identity. I have a third identity, Pelle & Uzmakk, which I created when we were doing the haysweep gig. It got spammed too, in Hotmail.

281. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 3:13:37 PM

AC

i have some JS skills. the problem that springs to mind is that JS goes no deeper in the document object than the posting window. for example, you could tell the browser to put in the opening and closing tags for < I > & < / I > for example, but not where in the box. thus, it could literally pop up anywhere in the box - i think that'd be more annoying than anything especially if you want to use it while mid-opus.

at least, that's my understanding. anyone reading this and knows differently, please let me know (and how to do it!)

i could write a parser that checks for opening and closing HTML tags when the motie in question clicks Cast or Check -any interest in that?

282. EdGleason - 9/8/2000 3:19:02 PM

A Visit from St Ed


‘Twas the month of September, famed all through the land,

For ONE blessed event, though it DO beat the band;

When what to my wondering eyes should appear,

But anniversary news and eight mugs of beer.


Greetings and salutations to The Snodgrass of Clan Snodgrass (photo of manly bekilted knees available upon request, according to my Missus), thanks to whom I am present at this muster, and to all of you. I hope that your site is and continues to be what you envisioned.


Now PsychProf, now Irving, now Diva, and Bubber!

On I.T., on Wabbit, on B.G., and Conner!


Happy Anniversary to all, and to all a good site.

283. JudithAtHome - 9/8/2000 3:22:01 PM

That was very good! I don't know who you are but I loved your poem...

284. grannypatsy - 9/8/2000 3:30:10 PM

.First thanks ti tireless effirts by Alistair I (amd other webtvsusers)were able to access the Mote. This was good. Irv and wabbott helped too. And many others. Thanks.
I jouned the Fray early on and was amazed at the jolly mix of people from all over the world.
Last year I visited ephebeus in Turkey where the ruined town is being
restored. Later in the day we attended a Turkish barbeque where I joined an amiable couple. I said it was odd how I would recall a line of poetry to fit experiences and started to qooute a line from Hoiseman
"today the Roman and his trobles.." Gentleman finished "are asjes inder Uricon".He turbed out to be an English professor and she was a poet. I told them about the Fray and the poetry thread. He carefully write down the site. Since this was taling place in Augusthe time we returrned th Fray was gone.After a suitable period of mourning and a lot of work by many Moties all was well. The threads are srill here and many former Fraygrants have bcome Moties. This is all to say I'm not going anywhere. Happy Anniversary.

285. theDiva - 9/8/2000 3:33:41 PM

My God, ED GLEASON!!!!!!!

Love to you and Maria!

286. theDiva - 9/8/2000 3:35:04 PM

And of course, enormous love and kisses to beloved GrannyPatsy!

287. grannypatsy - 9/8/2000 3:38:49 PM

Geez I'm not even going to try to fix my typos exept torestore Housmans "u" and properly describe Roman who is now "ashes. Perhaps "checing for dust" would help.

288. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 4:11:20 PM

Ed, please give my best and (chastely!) affectionate greetings to Maria, and special greetings for our birthday in ten days.

289. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 4:48:14 PM

AAAAAAAAAAARGH!!

I just realised that, in addition to the legit spam that I sent out from Jay's server, the tests I've been doing on my own machine have been sending out unsolicited gunk, when I was connected to the internet.

Deepest apologies to the spammees. I can only plead insanity, and throw myself upon the mercy of the jury.

290. PelleNilsson - 9/8/2000 4:51:14 PM

Absolved.

291. Ronski - 9/8/2000 4:53:57 PM

In this joyous anniversary season, I wish to publicly thank glendajean for tracking me down and telling me about the Mote.

(Now you all know whom to blame.)

292. ChristinO - 9/8/2000 4:54:33 PM

Hi Ed!!!!

SMOOOCHES to you and the Sprite!

293. ChristinO - 9/8/2000 4:55:05 PM

And Happy Anniversary to the rest of us!

WE RULE!!!!!!

294. Indiana Jones - 9/8/2000 5:13:45 PM

I've received about 140 replies, most of the bad address form, several asking to unsubscribe.

Question: Do I delete these people or lock their account (if I delete them, theoretically someone else could adopt the username, which we may or may not want)?

If I lock their account, it would be good to have the comment field I mentioned previously so as to specify why an account is locked.

295. ChristinO - 9/8/2000 5:18:53 PM

I'd vote to lock the account rather than delete to avoid impersonations, besides, people do change their minds. They leave and then come back after a hiatus. It's not like there's any shortage of handles to use.

296. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 5:32:01 PM

OK, I'll add the comment field... It's done. Fire away.

297. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 5:40:52 PM

The difficulty with people changing their own e-mail address is that I can't think of a way to check that it's authentic. Initial registration works OK, because people can only get their first password through e-mail; but how could we stop people changing to something that doesn't exist? Then we have no way to get back to them.

298. Indiana Jones - 9/8/2000 5:43:13 PM

I don't think people should be able to change their email. Even TableTalk doesn't allow you to change your account email (though you can change the one visible to other users).

299. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 5:44:39 PM

Oh by the way... I was wrong about the number of posts per month. We are effectively in decline. Here are the numbers :

9356 1999/08
20700 1999/09
17272 1999/10
17912 1999/11
10422 1999/12
16758 2000/01
20456 2000/02
18086 2000/03
15711 2000/04
11565 2000/05
10391 2000/06
9690 2000/07
11256 2000/08
3394 2000/09

Cal is right. The all-time peaks are September last year and February. We need the people.

300. CalGal - 9/8/2000 5:47:19 PM

Alistair,

Yes, May is when I first started noting it. When I was in Hawaii, it struck me that things were slow. About 1000 posts a week slower, I think. However, things do seem to be picking up.

301. RickNelson - 9/8/2000 5:56:01 PM

Happy Anniversary Mote!

302. ScottLoar - 9/8/2000 5:56:58 PM

Thanks for remembering me. Most kind of you all.

The number of dead and missing reappearing is as impressive as a Chicago precinct voter roster.

303. CalGal - 9/8/2000 5:57:54 PM

Nice to see you back, Scott. Another great analogy, too.

306. labwabbit - 9/8/2000 6:05:37 PM

Hap-py An-ni-ver-sar-y....Hap-py An-ni-ver-sar-y....Hap-py An-ni-ver-sar-y...
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPP-PY-ANIVERSARY!!!


With Respect, Appreciation, and Warmest Wishes to All!


(Special Note: Thanks ChristinO for all you are and done...X)

307. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 6:05:52 PM

Sorry... I'm not very good at HTML...

308. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 6:07:34 PM

ScottLoar, you are remembered and ... dare I say... sorely missed (ow, that hurt.)

Labwabbit too!

309. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 6:09:38 PM

Here are some more numbers, giving the number of distinct IDs posting in each month :

310. CalGal - 9/8/2000 6:10:52 PM

My lord, what has happened here?

311. RickNelson - 9/8/2000 6:16:24 PM

Awsome Wabbit!!! Nicely done.

312. labwabbit - 9/8/2000 6:20:59 PM

Good to see you as well AC. It has been an incredible year indeed.

As you have made apparently obvious, the "attendance" is not what it was. I would not be here at this moment if not out of respectful reaction to the email notification.

Time in my world, (and I suspect that be the case for numerous others), is filled to capacity. I could ask if the decline in attendance here somehow mirrors the decline in people actually spending time with others in person.

Where does the time go....?

313. ChristinO - 9/8/2000 6:21:08 PM

Hiya lab!
I don't know what I done but yer quite welcome!

314. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 6:23:09 PM

Some more numbers : Since March, we have been collecting the number of page hits (i.e. the number of times a thread is loaded in a browser). The ratio seems to be about six pages read for one post.

315. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 6:24:57 PM

(I deleted a couple of posts, 304 and 305, after really messing up the tables.)

316. labwabbit - 9/8/2000 6:26:51 PM

ChristinO...

You were my very first greeting-exchange-respondant from wayyy back in the days "O" the Fray. And... just because you are soooo sweet...

Stuff!

Gotta run...nice to see al of youse wonderful people...A-YUH!!

317. stostosto - 9/8/2000 6:28:48 PM

alistair
Those are interesting statistics. It seems there was a lull from May through August. I wonder how that compares with the pattern of the old place. There's bound to be less activity in the summer.

At the same time, the absence of a few prolific posters can account for much of the variation. For example, PE's behaviour alone would likely cause major swings, not just by his own efforts but of those he spurred.

318. Planet 9 - 9/8/2000 6:39:34 PM

Happy A everyone. What a long strange trip it has been!

319. alistairconnor - 9/8/2000 6:57:14 PM

One last bunch of numbers : Page hits by un-logged-in users (lurkers) vs logged-in users :

320. vonKreedon - 9/8/2000 8:19:34 PM

AC - Fascinating stats, I'm surprised by the over 5 to 1 logged in to anonymous ratio. Apparently we are a compelling enough forum that most of those who bother to come here can't help but participate.

Now, can we keep the column width that we currently have in this thread and make it the default? Someone said that thin columns are easier to read, I have to disagree. I had always thought that the reason that papers use columns is because they are much easier to juggle when laying out the paper. I can't read the NYT or WSJ because of their column sizes.

Also, someone said that the 2,000 character limit is a feature as it prevents idiots from waxing their idiocy at length and does not hamper those who actually have something to say. Again I disagree, idiots post at length here and I, at least, am regularly frustrated with having to juggle my posts so that they don't cut off in an inappropriate place. I believe that allowing longer posts could increase the amount of time that people put into their posts. I was on an email listserve discussion group for a couple of years and the format was great for writing thesis style arguments. One could develop the post, on ones favorite word processor, over several days and several drafts before finally posting. The level of argument would be greatly improved if people posted less and with more effort. I believe that wider columns and longer post limits would encourage this.

321. ChristinO - 9/8/2000 8:23:18 PM

Hiya Cos!

btw check the Suggestions thread. It looks like Indy tried to send mail to an old edress of yours rather than a current.

322. vonKreedon - 9/8/2000 9:06:30 PM

Thanks Cos, posted to Indy. By the by, you owe me an email. See the post in Suggestions for working email address.

323. ee - 9/8/2000 9:14:32 PM

lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk post lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk post


Happy Bithrday dear Mote
Happy Birthday to you

324. ranheim - 9/8/2000 10:12:47 PM

I have not had time to spend much time on-line in the past 6 months. I am very happy to see that the Mote made it through its first year. It is my hope that I will be able to join in more frequently in the future. In any case, continued great success.

325. knotafrayed - 9/8/2000 10:35:31 PM

I've only recently uncloaked from my lurking device and tested the posting waters of the Mote. The experience has been positive ... enough so that I've removed my wetsuit and am thrashing about happily.
Reading even the sketchy Motish history posted earlier in this thread has led to a deeper appreciation of the vision, dedication and hard work expended to create and maintain this place. I salute you:
Happy First!

326. arkymalarky - 9/8/2000 10:39:20 PM

Hey Ranheim! Good to see you!

It's been great lurking today and seeing familiar (and some new) ids in the various threads. Maybe now that fall is nearing and some have had a break people will stick around. Moting is a great thing to do early on winter nights when it's cold and dark outside.

Regarding ids, I know several people irl who've lurked and two or three who've gone so far as to get ids (though I don't know what they are--they just told me they'd registered), and only one has posted one time. Maybe the emails will draw some of them and some that other Moties have told about the site to log on.

Irv,
I knew you hadn't forgotten your promise, but time and distance have a way of intruding on those kinds of things. But you know I'd welcome a visit or chance to meet anytime. As certain TX Moties will tell you, I think it's worth a pretty good drive to meet wonderful people, and my doors are always open (at least for people who aren't too judgmental about housekeeping). And fwiw, that goes for pretty much everyone I know here. Like Irv, I'd love the opportunity to meet more of you fine people in person.

327. robertjayb - 9/8/2000 10:40:09 PM

.
The healer from the swamps!

Lessez le bon temps rouler!

328. arkymalarky - 9/8/2000 10:40:39 PM

Hey Knot! Glad to have you here!

329. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:12:10 AM

So nice to see so many old friends dropping by to say hi (and, if we're lucky, joining us again).

Knot:
Nice card! Thanks, on behalf of my fellow Moties.

Arky:
Count on it. I'm sorry we weren't in TX at the same time this summer, but another chance will come up, guaranteed.

330. alistairconnor - 9/9/2000 4:37:16 AM

Hey I had another idea while I was asleep.

We can add an option to the Profile page, so that people can choose to be spammed when a new thread is created. Thusly, when the moderator creates a new thread, those who have chosen this option will automatically receive an e-mail like this.

Hi Xyzzy,
A new thread has been created on The Mote. It's called "Nose picking". It is hosted by PseudoErasmus, who summarises its subject thus :
"Tips and techniques for the beginner; hilarious personal anecdotes, and lively debate between specialists."

Please check it out! [Link to the thread here.]


This will give a new thread its chance to attain critical mass - we all know the difference between a thread that works and one that languishes, it's a matter of attracting interest in the first few days.

331. alistairconnor - 9/9/2000 4:55:23 AM

VonK :

I know what you mean about post length. What we've canvassed in the past is the idea of adding the possibility to attach articles to a thread, which can be published by the thread host. Articles would be linked prominently from the thread page, and also from a separate Contents page, grouped by thread.

These articles would have no particular length restriction, and could have image files associated, so as to illustrate with photos, maps, graphs or whatever.

Two publication formats would be possible :

• either you upload an HTML file you have prepared offline, or
  
• you paste your plain text into a data entry screen, and attach any jpgs

332. stostosto - 9/9/2000 5:03:32 AM

333. pellenilsson - 9/9/2000 5:14:26 AM

Clever sto!

334. CalGal - 9/9/2000 5:19:24 AM

Alistair, that "publishing" idea is great, but it won't solve the post length requirement, I think.

335. alistairconnor - 9/9/2000 5:40:56 AM

The post length requirement, as posited by vonK, is very precisely addressed by the publishing option. The problem of HTML tables isn't. The problem of not wanting to break up a moderately long post into 2K chunks isn't, either.

Lifting the restriction of post length might compromise the article publication idea -- a continuous piece which is more than a couple of 2K posts long should probably be an article anyway (Added enticement : an article would be revisable by its author!)
I'd like to give the article thing a try first before upping the post length.

336. pellenilsson - 9/9/2000 6:17:24 AM

Alistair

Here is a proposal I have made before. Maybe you missed it then.

I know you don't like parsing HTMl-code, but in the case of tables you do it because of the paragraph marks. Since you parse in any case, can you not also increase (or diable) max characters for posts with tables? Most programs such as Word, Excel and Frontpage code tables very inefficiently so the 2000 limit is quite severe. The alternative: to code them by hand is not my favourite way of spending time.

337. pellenilsson - 9/9/2000 6:18:00 AM

diable=disable

338. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 6:42:13 AM

If we are now going to do promotion we need to provide some guidance as to how the site works. It seems every discussion forum has its own user interface and they are always a bit baffling at first. I spent some idle time at the office yesterday putting together The Mote Interface; Hints and Tips. I don't know if it overlaps with CalGal's FAQ (which should also be linked soon), but I think it is a good idea to have these purely practical matters in a separate document. Comments are welcome.

339. Greystoke - 9/9/2000 8:47:17 AM

Pelle


Good job on the "Hints and Tips".


And very kind of your employer to pay you to put it together.

340. Greystoke - 9/9/2000 9:02:29 AM

I think The Mote should retain the 2000 character limit on posts. It encourages the poster to pare down his tome into the essence of what he is trying to convey.

I don't use a word processor to compose my posts and do all my editing in the box. If my post goes over 2000, I strive mightily to edit out enough cluttered thoughts to stay within the limit.

Of course one cannot always keep a given thought under 2000 bytes, but spreading it out into two or three posts is not all that much trouble.

Also, I often skip long winded posts after reading the first few sentences. I suspect many others do the same. So why encourage Moters to spew forth excessive verbage by removing the limit?

341. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 9:09:33 AM

Thank you, Greystoke.

The great thing about having seniority, and having "been everywhere and done everything", and now and then being seen "in conference with the President" (although we are mostly chewing the cud about days past), is that the youngsters don't dare to question what (if anything) you are doing.

342. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 9:25:40 AM

Greystoke

Your latest got in while I composed my latest but one.

I tend to agree although there are a few posters who can turn out long, yet interesting posts. Angel-five, Cartman and vonKreedon comes to mind, Spudboy too, but he, alas, and unfortunately, is no longer with us. But the vast majority of us has no difficulty in coping with the 2000 limit.

I thinks we should try to come to some kind of gentlemen's agreement on the copy and paste of lenghty articles indulged in by some.

343. Jack Vincennes - 9/9/2000 9:30:20 AM

The Mote is quite an achievement and all those who prune and tend the garden for my sporadic enjoyment are to be commended. Thank you.

Some thoughts on enticing others to the site:

1. If you see someone on TT or another forum who appears to be moderately intelligent, email them. A single, directed advertisment.

2. Take advantage of opportunities. Dave Meyer and I were having some beers the other night, and we started talking to one of Dave's law school acquaintances, we told him how we met, and he seemed interested. Especially when Dave and I told him we were going to take a steam bath later.

3. Think old, not young. While a thread for Motie children has been bandied about, old people have more time on their hands, they are more enamored of this newfound technology called the internet, they are by nature lonelier, they are smarter than children, and they feel that no one listens to them anymore.

344. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 9:31:50 AM

The above shows signs of grammatical uncertainty. "I thinks" is a genuine typo. But I'm genuinely uncertain whether "the majority of us" should be treated as singular or plural. Technically it's no doubt singular, but to my ear the proximity of "us" and the verb seems to make the plural acceptable (or even preferable?).

345. Greystoke - 9/9/2000 9:34:34 AM

My elderly parents have expressed an interest in getting on the Internet, but I just tune them out.

346. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 9:38:22 AM

"Think old not young"

In TT there is this Henry Shames character who is 78 and vociferous. I

347. Jack Vincennes - 9/9/2000 9:40:34 AM

Grey

I agree about the character limit. To the extent it forces one to pare down a thought, the better.

348. CalGal - 9/9/2000 9:55:11 AM

Alistair,

From what I understand, the "publishing" feature will allow people to create a treatise and link it in?

That won't address the posting length requirement. A post is a post, a link is a link.

That being said, I don't see any reason to remove the restriction, unless it could be done for tables.

349. CalGal - 9/9/2000 9:58:54 AM

The reason I think the kids forum is an interesting idea is because there is nothing like it. Kids only have chat rooms, and there might be a real interest in being able to post longer thoughts.

I don't think that old people are any smarter than young people, and it was an odd thing to say. I think the elderly are like any other demographic. We want a lot of the terrific folks, and would rather not have too many of those who post long rants at Free Republic.

350. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 10:01:03 AM

In yet another brilliant move I have created an account on Geocities which can be used by all Moties to publish scanned pictures, articles from subscription sites, and what have you.

www.geocities.com

Identity: themoties

Password: kissme

I suggest that those wishing to use it create their own subdirectory so that not everything gets mixed up.

I have already created one for sto³ so that he can, if he whishes, upload and link articles from the latest Economist.

If you want to use this facility and have how-to questions send me an e-mail

The account has a home page. It has to, otherwise Geocities becomes unhappy and sends pressing e-mails. It is here.

351. CalGal - 9/9/2000 10:37:27 AM

Nice idea, Pelle. Dusty and I had been chewing on that a year ago. We might want to turn the instructions for that over to Dusty's thread.

Haven't read your other link yet, will do so now.

352. CalGal - 9/9/2000 10:43:55 AM

Speaking of demographics--while it is probably a lost cause, I do wish we had more "people of color" here. Cellar is our own regular black poster--boohab floated by to say "hi!" yesterday, which was great. We have no Asian posters (American or otherwise), no Hispanics save (ha) Vincennes, and we only have a few Indian posters. I am probably missing people, apologies in advance.

Pelle--nice writeup.

353. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 10:53:09 AM

Pelle:
But I'm genuinely uncertain whether "the majority of us" should be treated as singular or plural.

Plural. Your sentence ("But the vast majority of us has no difficulty in coping with the 2000 limit. ") simply sounds wrong.

Jack:
I agree about the character limit.

Yeah, we have too many characters around here already.

Cal:
We have no Asian posters (American or otherwise)

Disregarding the color of my skin, I think I qualify as an Asian poster.


Btw, I want to say happy birthday to BG Pelaire, who has promised to check out this thread.

354. arkymalarky - 9/9/2000 11:17:08 AM

Fraaaaank is Hispanic.

I propose that we leave the 2000 char limit in Politics (in fact, maybe cut it in half?) and expand it elsewhere.

(sort of kidding)

355. ScottLoar - 9/9/2000 11:19:16 AM

And what will "people of colour" give to this forum? A different perspective - assuming those of us who are not "of colour" are woefully uniform in our thoughts and experiences? A different mode of expression, again, beyond the experience and abilities of those of us who are not "of colour"? Perhaps "people of colour" will introduce topics which beggar the imagination of those of us who are not of colour?

Well, what? Anyone defining themselves by "colour" or sexual preference would soon tire of a forum where those qualities just don't mean a damned thing. There are forums aplenty for people who define themselves by colour and sex; you want this to become another one?

356. CalGal - 9/9/2000 11:27:23 AM

Anyone defining themselves by "colour" or sexual preference would soon tire of a forum where those qualities just don't mean a damned thing.

I agree completely. I'm glad you brought this up, because it echoes my thoughts as to why we don't have a lot of "minorities" (used from here on in as shorthand). I think that there is a selection bias of sorts at play--most minorities who join online forums do so almost exclusively to discuss issues of race, discrimination, etc. This means that they are unlikely to be attracted by our forum, as you point out.

But obviously this isn't true of all, and it would be nice if we had a wider representation of voices--all of whom still want to discuss international issues, movies, work, politics, and so on.

357. CalGal - 9/9/2000 11:27:57 AM

Ack. Frraaaaaaank, I'm sorry for forgetting you.

358. Cellar Door - 9/9/2000 11:36:27 AM

Jack V. is also one of the "little brown ones," as Dubbya's dad would sya.

359. CalGal - 9/9/2000 11:37:44 AM

I'd mentioned him already, but Fraaank was a better case.

360. ScottLoar - 9/9/2000 11:39:01 AM

He's short, is he? Or just very young?

361. CalGal - 9/9/2000 11:42:41 AM

Well, that's true. Jack is certainly "littler" than Fraaaaank. But Cellar was just bringing politics into things, so it's no matter.

362. arkymalarky - 9/9/2000 11:43:45 AM

Scott,

Short and old.

Good to see you back, btw. Since you took a hiatus shortly after your Cafe Millennial I thought maybe you had decided you had reached the apex of Moting at that point.

Cal,
Why is Frank a better case? Is JV not 100% Hispanic?

363. CalGal - 9/9/2000 11:53:04 AM

Actually, I don't know about either of their heritage, but JV's southern accent throws me off. Hard to think of a Hispanic boy saying "Y'all".

Anyway, I was just pointing out that we are almost entirely white. But I agree with Scott as to the reasons, and given that forum membership is not representative of the population as a whole, I don't think it's any terrible shortcoming on our part. Still, I'd like the numbers up a bit more, in the perfect world I'd rule.

364. ScottLoar - 9/9/2000 11:54:12 AM

Arky,

I appreciate your kind words, but little has changed here. I'm gonna' be movin' on...

365. arkymalarky - 9/9/2000 12:00:43 PM

Well, I'm glad to see you drop in and hope you continue to, if only occasionally. Take care!

366. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 12:19:15 PM

It is indeed nice to see you here, ScottLoar. Any plans for a trip to this part of the world?

367. dusty - 9/9/2000 12:48:11 PM

Nothing like an anniversary to bring people out of the woodwork. Maybe we ought to have them more often!


Nice to see you again, ScottLoar, and you too, EdGleason. Please say hello to Maria

368. ScottLoar - 9/9/2000 1:35:51 PM

IrvingSnodgrass, I'll be in Hong Kong, Bangkok, Jakarta, Surabaya, Singapore and Manila 24 September through 13 October.

Dusty, thanks for the welcome.

369. bloodnfire - 9/9/2000 1:44:38 PM

Congratulations fellow Moties. What a great year. Here's to many more. As for 'recruitment', I feel if each of us can recruit just one new Motie over the next year, it would be extremely healthy. I have several friends who have 'logged on', and one even posted once, but they just didn't get 'hooked' (yet).

I believe one-on-one, word of mouth is the most effective way. On the other hand I would be happy to 'chip in' to buy an advertisemtent
on some other Magazine, to see if it helped.

370. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 1:47:48 PM

Pelle -- Message # 350
CalGal -- Message # 351

Nice idea, Pelle. Dusty and I had been chewing on that a year ago.

Well, I thought about it this morning. Then I went ahead and did it.

It seems a Motish habit that ideas are being discussed, chewed on, hashed about, but little is actually done.

Hesitation, procrastination, vacillation, preference for talk over action; those must be typically American traits.

371. vonKreedon - 9/9/2000 1:52:22 PM

AC - I like the article sub-thread idea alot. One caveat, assuming that you are suggesting that such sub-thread posting were done only by the thread host, this would require thread hosts to be deligent in checking for new article submissions regularly and often. On the other hand, if the sub-thread was subscription to post to and if the thread host had the ability to create the subscriptions, then one would only need to send a request for permission to begin posting articles. This then creates the potential for the sub-thread to become the "long-winded pseudointellectual" version of the thread, leaving the original thread as the "snappy and childishly vindictive" version.

I'm rambling and have no particular point.

372. CalGal - 9/9/2000 1:57:20 PM

Hesitation, procrastination, vacillation, preference for talk over action; those must be typically American traits.


I didn't say we chewed on it for a year. We mentioned it, and there was some debate over it. No need to be so self-congralatory, after all.

373. rubberducky - 9/9/2000 2:03:02 PM

AC

Re: Message # 281 - i'll take that as a "no"...

374. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 2:08:23 PM

CalGal

I'm not self-congratulatory. What I'm saying is that from time to time we get together and discuss things that could and should be done, and we seeem to agree, but nothing ever happens. It's not long ago that we all thought some kind of press release would be a great idea. And what ensued? A big fat nothing. And nobody seems to care.

375. Indiana Jones - 9/9/2000 2:10:09 PM

Pelle: It's not an American trait. Maybe it comes from so many Motiers being academics and government types.

Heh.

376. CalGal - 9/9/2000 2:14:48 PM

Pelle,

I was merely objecting to the notion that it is a 'Murrican trait.

I am investigating list exchanges, although I still haven't quite figured it out. (g)

As for the press release, Irv says that a brief little blurb won't do, so it needs time. Yet Alistair has says he wants the site refurbished and looking pretty, too. So I'm trying to do that and get something for people to look at, which means I can't do anything on the press release.

I don't think it's fair to say that no one cares. Doing things as a group is difficult. And there's no question that when one takes initiative, they also risk criticism--well-meaning or no--and that tends to scare some people off.

377. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:38:35 PM

ScottLoar:
Perhaps we can meet up while you're here? Is your e-mail address still the same?

378. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:44:59 PM

I really like Blood's suggestion of each person recruiting one new member. What could be so hard about that?

Pelle:
Hesitation, procrastination, vacillation, preference for talk over action; those must be typically American traits.

Actually, I think Americans are just the opposite: go-getters who feel "if you want something done you gotta do it yourself."

The hesistancy comes from this being a non-hierarchichal organization, and nobody wants to appear to be throwing their weight around. There's a lot of aversion to "take-charge" types around here. Plus, many people don't want to burden themselves with too much responsibility.

379. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:45:41 PM

arrrrgh. toys!

380. CalGal - 9/9/2000 2:45:45 PM

guessing on toys

381. CalGal - 9/9/2000 2:46:51 PM

Of course, I should have also said I agree with your post.

Back to the press release. Who do we send it to?

382. profemeritus - 9/9/2000 2:47:16 PM

I am responding to the admonition of the Gatekeeper.

Yes, like lemwalker (also known as the Golf Course owner, which probably explains his long absences from posting), I too am a lurker checking in almost daily. Some of us lurkers are very busy people. Also, I have little to respond to since most of my respondents are in quiescence.

Have you noticed how few good words start with "q?" Which reminds me, another reason for my surreptitious lurking is that I am not a qickwitted quidnunc. But I do promise to make a genuine congratulatory post on our quinquagenary.

383. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:50:58 PM

Cal:
4 seconds late on the toycheck. ;-)

Back to the press release. Who do we send it to?
Everyone.

384. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:51:39 PM

I did it gagaaaaaaain!

I've got to stop posting at 3 AM.

385. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 2:52:22 PM

ahem... again.


see?

386. Lucky - 9/9/2000 2:53:01 PM

This is a small forum. I'm a member of another small forum, and find intrinsic value in the small forum concept. It is fun poking around in here although I don't really know anyone. New members are great, but don't fall into the trap of defining the worth of your forum in terms of attracting new blood. Size isn't everything.

387. CalGal - 9/9/2000 2:53:01 PM

Everyone like big papers, or everyone in the online sense? How does it work?

388. vonKreedon - 9/9/2000 2:57:22 PM

Irv - Regarding how hard could it be to recruit one new member. If you mean successfully recruiting, then I have tried to recruit ~10 people, none of whom has posted and almost all of whom have done no more than take a look and decide it was too in-bred for them to put the effort into decyphering the sub-text in order to read and post effectively. So, it's been very hard to recruit one new member, for me.

389. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 2:59:19 PM

CalGal

I knew that Murrican jibe would guarantee a response. Even the unflappable Irving got miffed. Now, I propose we do the small easy things before the big difficult ones. Let us link in your FAQ and my Hints and Tips on the home page. I propose a new heading at the top right "About the Mote". I would like these items to be displayed a bit more prominently, but that can wait. I also propose an "About us" comprising the text that is now on the Archives home page. The RoE could also be put there. They're invisible where they are now.

390. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/9/2000 3:03:54 PM

"miffed"?

391. CalGal - 9/9/2000 3:11:29 PM

Changed front page

I prefer the non-centered look which is why I threw it out there, but I'm not bound to it, so if people like the centered look better, fine. One of the reasons I took the abstract off is because as we get more threads, the page gets longer. But enough people have demanded it in that I'm relenting.

I would like there to be a short and long thread description, though, Alistair. That way the thread host could go into more detail that would be contained in a link. I have it mocked up on a few thread pages.

The "Links" section isn't working on my page--I can't figure out why, but I asked Alistair to shoot me another copy of production code and I'll get it working. Once it's working, I can add an About Us link that will contain all the various documents we have--RoE, Intro, Posting Howtos, HTML Hints, FAQs, etc. I'm working on that now.

If you check the bottom, you'll see that I added FAQs and your Mote Interface link.

392. CalGal - 9/9/2000 3:13:09 PM

Oh, ignore the thread pages. They were mockups and not done anyway. I will be switching the VCR buttons, though--the burgundy has been annoying me for a year.

393. CalGal - 9/9/2000 3:20:54 PM

I would also like to have the subthreads listed under the primary thread, but I was never able to communicate what I needed to Alistair, I suppose, and the limits of my knowledge both of perl and the bowels of the ap made it too difficult for me to pull off.

394. arkymalarky - 9/9/2000 3:28:10 PM

On recruiting people face to face, it hasn't worked well for me, and I don't know that it would have worked well on me if my dad had mentioned it as a regular participant himself rather than in a passing "you-might-be-interested" way. Maybe it's because most people want to come in solely on their own merits rather than as "friend of soandso, brother of soandso," etc, though it's worked great here in some cases--Irv and ProfE, Marsha and Jen, Al and EE, Bub and MzPhyz, off the top of my head.

My husband won't participate partly for that reason, and if I could ever persuade him to I would try to do it in a way that he could maintain a separate identity from me. Which would be good for my rep too, since he's quite the radical. Heck, he may even be a regular in here and I just don't know what his id is...hmmm. Maybe that's happened with others I've invited? I feel a bad case of paranoia coming on all of a sudden.

395. JudithAtHome - 9/9/2000 3:36:59 PM

Cal:

I like the off center look but what I really like is the defining remarks about each thread under the titles.

396. CalGal - 9/9/2000 3:40:14 PM

Sigh.

I know. I hate them on the front page, but y'all seem to like them. But I would have returned them long ago if it weren't for the fact that we didn't have a dev server, then I didn't have time, then I didn't have a computer.

397. Lucky - 9/9/2000 3:56:02 PM

Hmmmm. Perhaps you could increase your membership by not ignoring anything that new members, old visitors, or "outsiders" post. This is the Anniversary thread, right? I got an e-mail inviting me here, right? Now you ignore anything that I post except to say tersely that "...we're brainstorming here?" Perhaps a bit less insularity would tempt newcomers. Hey, just a thought...

398. CalGal - 9/9/2000 4:03:23 PM

Lucky, I read your post. I hadn't ignored it. Although you bring up another issue--that we can't always predict how people will interpret things.

If you want a response, I would say that we certainly aren't trying to be a huge forum. Nor do I think we are defining our worth by how many new members we attract. However, I think most of us would rather not be a "club" with a fixed membership.

399. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 4:25:52 PM

Lucky

Don't be so testy. I greeted you in Poetry did I not? And you are in a sense 'family'. There are many here who remember you and welcome you back because of your excellent contributions both to Poetry and to Stories. By the way, there is a link in Stories (right-hand column) to the collected Mote stories.

400. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 4:32:48 PM

CalGal

I like the front page. Off-center is fine. Centered is so conventional. Personally, I like the blurbs.

What I think needs some pondering are the news items. I don't think anybody sees them. And (perhaps because of that) thread hosts do not maintain them. Take a look. Most are months old. A while ago Indy asked hosts to review them. Obviously none did.

401. JudithAtHome - 9/9/2000 4:35:22 PM

Cal:

Why do you not like the descripitive terms under the headings of the threads? To someone new, it would be a help...some might think the Cafe, for instance, was a place for food or that the Slow Thread was fo Densa members, rather than the revese.

402. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 4:44:14 PM

CalGal -- Message # 393

I suggest we forget about about sub-threads. I can elaborate if you want but they are simply not a good idea (although at the beta stage I thought they would be).

403. CalGal - 9/9/2000 4:47:03 PM

Judith,

Because I'm weird. I'd rather the abstract go on the thread page itself. It's not a big deal, I promise. Just some weird thing that eats at me.

Pelle,

I agree about the news links. Actually, I do keep mine updated--as a result, I rarely use it.

404. CalGal - 9/9/2000 4:48:56 PM

Pelle,

You know, you're probably right. I can go along with that.

405. vonKreedon - 9/9/2000 4:52:23 PM

Cal - I like the new mock-up quite a bit. Can we put one of the thread descriptions, either short or long, under the thread title once one enters the thread? We could put a link to a longer description in that space as a Read more... link.

406. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 5:34:02 PM

CalGal

I'll do a formatting job on Hints and Tips using your Mote Reviews as a model. My colour vision is a bit impaired. Can you give me the RGB numbers for butterscotch?

407. alistairconnor - 9/9/2000 5:39:07 PM

About the news links.

- They are too small (they used to be bigger)
- They are not maintained.

What is needed is proactive moderation. Sure, any thread host can add a news link; but I think it would work better if someone who actually reads most of the threads (perhaps the moderator, but not necessarily) just posted links to high-quality posts on a regular basis. Because for the majority of regulars who don't read all the threads, and for all of the occasional visitors, we're missing out on some really good stuff.

Far from abolishing the feature, I think that if properly used, it's a key to the success of the site.

I also think it should go back to being called "Mote News" (or something else) rather than "Topics of interest".

408. ChristinO - 9/9/2000 5:54:13 PM

I like the idea of calling it Mote News. Also of making the links a bit larger, but I have some questions suggestions about organizations etc.

Our front page serves two purposes: site guide and Storefront.

For regular users it provides easy access to information and navigation. For new users it's maybe not as easy to get around.

Mote History/Identity
Rules of Engagement
FAQ
Help

Should all be more prominent and closer to the top of the page. These are things that a new user is going to wonder about first.

We might also consider a single link to "Quizzes and Surveys" to cut down on clutter. A page that lists ongoing quizzes like the political test and (if I ever get off my lazy ass and finish it) the religion survey rather than several links to different quizzes on the front page.

I also have a confession: I have never figured out how to post a link in the late-breaking news bar. THAT is why I don't add to it.

409. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 5:56:25 PM

Alistair

I nver proposed abolishing the news links. I said they needed "pondering".

You complain they are not maintained. One link is named Our Very Own Y2K Bug. If I'm not mistaken that one is yours and it has been sitting there for eight months.

410. ChristinO - 9/9/2000 6:02:14 PM

I don't think he said "All you other people aren't maintaining the links" but simply that the links are not maintained which is true.

411. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 6:18:57 PM

Christine

Perhaps one should not throw stones when one is you know where.

412. CalGal - 9/9/2000 6:34:55 PM

Pelle--FFF5CE

On the news links--I suggest:

• Broaden the number of people who can create links. I am tempted to say it is a privilege of a login id--a privilege that can be suspended if abused (like HTML).
• The front page will only list those items that are less than five days old.
• Create a second page that lists all the news headlines ever--by date or by subject. Access to this page is at the bottom of the news list (More....)
• I like Christin's idea, too--create a page for quizzes or tests

413. CalGal - 9/9/2000 6:37:17 PM

vK,

Yes, that's my plan to put the thread abstract on the thread page as well, and I want to then have a longer field for more info. If Alistair could create a field for that (say the length of a post) that'd be terrific.

414. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 6:39:31 PM

Alistair mentioned that the Mote design allows for a some kind of "vice-moderator", who would be able to create and delete threats and other mundane tasks.

I volunteer for this assignment on the following conditions:

• That nobody in the community objects (except Rosetta).
  
• That it is clearly understood that policy decisions, including the resolution of disputes about the creation and deletions of threads, will remain the the exclusive prerogative of wabbit.

415. ScottLoar - 9/9/2000 6:45:02 PM

Irving;

Yes, I would like to meet with you again if possible and, yes, I'm at the same e-mail address.

416. CalGal - 9/9/2000 6:45:51 PM

Pelle,

We can't say "except Rosetta" and god knows that people will create false ids just to object. BUt then, screw the "everyone approves" notion. If we have a consensus and no huge battles, go for it.

417. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 6:50:40 PM

CalGal
Message # 412 Interesting, need to think about it.

Message # 413 If this is going to be something TT-like with a header that turns up every time you check in on a thread I say no. I'm totally opposed. A most tiring feature.

418. CalGal - 9/9/2000 6:52:26 PM

I had it implemented, and it was very small, up in the corner. But what I don't understand is why no one objects to seeing it every single time on the front page, but not on the page where it belongs?

419. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 6:58:34 PM

CalGal

People creating false identities just to oppose me? I would be flattered. Indeed I would.

420. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 7:04:43 PM

A moment ago the thread list showed last post by alistair. Now it doesn't. What gives?

421. CalGal - 9/9/2000 7:06:46 PM

What list? This one?

422. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 7:09:22 PM

No, the front page.

423. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2000 7:16:27 PM

It's past 1 a.m here. See you tomorrow. Thanks for the RGB numbers.

424. RosettaStone - 9/9/2000 9:44:57 PM

I support you, Pelle. And encourage my crew to do the same if you can get the techies to fix the software to make it easier to make typo/editing corrections after you post. The "Check for Dust" button is for the birds when you're fingers are flying and you're trying to get the next post

425. RosettaStone - 9/9/2000 9:46:26 PM

I'll support...

(did that on purpose. Yeah, sure.)

426. RosettaStone - 9/9/2000 10:14:32 PM

your fingers

(see what I mean. I'm doing these on purpose. whistling past the graveyard.)

427. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:10:22 AM

Hey, Happy Anniversary, all.

Allistair, Jay, JJ, Cal, Wabbit... nice job. If I left anybody out, sorry. I forget names.

I see lots of complaining that no one new comes here anymore.

Let me tell you something, guys:

No one new has ever come to the Fray/Mote. No one.

Well, maybe JanJon. But no one of any import. Since I first came here, and that was long ago, I haven't seen anyone new, really. No one.

Except JanJon. Like I said, no one of any import.

So the Fray/Mote has been "dying" and "incestuous" and "inbred" and "boring" for all two or three years I've known of it. And everyone has been complaining about the lack of "fresh blood" for just as long.

In other words: It's the same as it's ever been. And yet it still lives. Like a fungus that just won't die.

428. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:14:32 AM

So lighten up, y'all. I'm one of the newest people here, and you know how badly that worked out.

Most "fresh blood" turns out to be very "tired blood" anyhow. Like JanJon. But I digress.

What is this site missing? Well, for one thing, it doesn't have enough Ace of Spades. I come here looking for cutting-edge cuts from Ace of Spades, and I see almost none of him anymore. So I don't bother posting.

It's a vicious cycle, and I don't know how to end it.

Or maybe I do.




Ace of Spades for Mote President

Because you fucking whiny little pukes need a strong hand to strangle sense into your pencil necks.

That's right. A Mote Election.

My hat is now in the ring, Fuck-Nuts. Who's man enough to take me on?

Fuck you each, fuck you all, and remember to please vote for Ace.

429. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:17:12 AM

Von Kreedon promised "fresh blood." Von Kreedon promised "fresh voices."

Von Kreedon has led us to the greatest deficit in Ace-of-Spades-postings in Fray/Mote history.

Von Kreedon, in a word, sucks.

430. ee - 9/10/2000 2:31:13 AM

Hey Ace How about a football pool?

431. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:33:37 AM

ee:

Go ask "President" Von Kreedon why we don't already have a football pool.

He had his chance. He did not lead. I will!

432. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:34:18 AM

ee,

but seriously, I'm all for a football pool, but I'm pretty much unwilling/unable to devote any time to it.

433. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:37:03 AM

Cartman's a fucking idiot-- Maybe we can convince him to do the football bitchwork for us.

Vote Ace of Spades

He will convince Eric Communist to do your bitchwork for you.

434. ee - 9/10/2000 2:42:41 AM

I vote for Cartman

435. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 2:58:13 AM

ee,

I posted spreads over in Sports.

436. PelleNilsson - 9/10/2000 4:08:06 AM

Let's look at some key factors that ought to be taken into account.

437. stostosto - 9/10/2000 4:57:41 AM

Pelle,

Brilliant analysis.

Ace,

How do you expect vonKreedon to lead when he is so badly restricted by the 2,000 characters limit? It's just not fair.

438. stostosto - 9/10/2000 5:08:08 AM

Ace,

what I want to know is this: Will you fight for the people against the powerful?

439. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/10/2000 5:17:24 AM

I concur that the analysis by the LCWSV* is brilliant.





*League of Chainsaw-Wielding Scandinavian Voters

440. PelleNilsson - 9/10/2000 5:21:24 AM

CalGal

I have modified Hints and Tips but it doesn't look like the butterscotch is right. And the page looks different in IE and NS. I begin to understand some of the problems you are facing.

Regarding the front page: what do you say about moving Utilities to the top of the page for increased visibility?

441. PelleNilsson - 9/10/2000 5:44:02 AM

vonKredon wrote:

I have tried to recruit ~10 people, none of whom has posted and almost all of whom have done no more than take a look and decide it was too in-bred for them to put the effort into decyphering the sub-text in order to read and post effectively. So, it's been very hard to recruit one new member, for me.

Two points:

I wonder if any of these persons had experience from some other discussion forum?

We constantly accuse ourselves of inbreeding, clannishness and sub-textual references. I contend that this is not a specific Mote phenomenon. I occasionally visit International in TableTalk. I see exactly the same thing there: a rather stable assortment of posters who have argued among themselves for a rather long time and have developed relations and shared references. I suspect that the vastness of TT masks the fact that it is made up by a number of "neighbourhoods" and that most posters stay in one of them, while some venture into two or three.

442. EricCartman - 9/10/2000 6:29:12 AM

Happy Anniversary Möterheads! Mad props, as we say in the 'hood, to CalGal, Alistair, Biener, Wabbit, Irving, and anyone else I may have inadvertently left out. (Unlike Ace, I am nearly eidetic when it comes to names, phone numbers, birthdates, etc., but like Ace, I try to just use my powers for selfish purposes.)

Anyway, tremendous work done by the technical folk, and hopefully things are picking up a bit.

As for me, right now I'm finding myself more interested in mundane things like making MP3 compilation CDs for my wife to listen to on her way to work, getting back into playing my guitar, reading actual books again, and getting my house organized in preparation for a new arrival in the Cartman household, early spring 2001. (Who knows, I may have a "Name Cartman's Baby" contest next March.)

443. EricCartman - 9/10/2000 6:29:34 AM

Re: posting length controversy -- This is something I've been mulling over a bit lately. Personally, I feel a response takes as long as it takes, whether it's 10 words or 1000. And since I write everything off-the-cuff, I don't edit for content. But it's a waste of my time -- and the Mote's bandwidth -- if it's not getting read or responded to. So for me, rather than extending the allowable character length, it makes more sense to adjust my writing style, or learn to edit better. We'll see; I've actually felt drained on things to write about lately, and don't feel much like continuing the "Bush sucks/Gore blows" circle jerk.

444. EricCartman - 9/10/2000 6:30:18 AM

Re: football pool -- Although I plan to curtail my time in here for a while, I can make it in to run a football pool, if there's a demand for it. (Yes, I guess I am a fucking idiot, Ace.) But last year was a bit frustrating, with only 4 or 5 people doing it every week, and others just popping in every two or three weeks (Ace). It fucks up the percentages, and I don't want to bother with that again. But if enough folks want to do it every week, I'll run it for at least the first half of the season.

(ESPN subscribers who want to play Pigskin Pickem are welcome to form a group with my team in there, the Oaktown Playaz. It's a non-spread team.)

445. arkymalarky - 9/10/2000 12:34:26 PM

CONGRATULATIONS ERIC!!!

As regards the length of your posts, they're fine. I find scrolling by them...I mean reading through them...like finding an oasis in a vapid cesspool of Washington Times c&p's and traded insults. Seriously, I think the post length is about right and I personally don't mind just cutting out some of mine and pasting it right into the next post when I go over. That takes all of about 15 extra seconds.

And Ace is right, this conversation about insularity and needing new blood came along not long after I got here, about the time Slate began its first in a string of stupid changes which reduced new visitors dramatically. I say we fix it by recreating a delusion of numbers in allowing a return of multiple IDs.

446. CalGal - 9/10/2000 12:39:37 PM

Oh, you've made it public finally. I've been terrified I'd forget.

Congrats, Eric!

Pelle--yeah, it's not so easy, is it? The troubles I live through, I tell you. I'll take a look at it, and I am still chewing on the front page. I have an idea, will see how it pans out.

447. AceofSpades - 9/10/2000 12:43:27 PM

For Cartman's baby, I nominate the name Ace Junior, after his father.

448. EricCartman - 9/10/2000 12:56:00 PM

Hahahahaha!! For a guy with no dick, you do pretty well, Ace.

449. stostosto - 9/10/2000 12:57:53 PM

Likability factor: Cartman
Entertainment value: Ace

450. stostosto - 9/10/2000 12:58:49 PM

(but close call on both).

451. CalGal - 9/10/2000 1:16:16 PM

Pelle,

I just copied your page into an asp file here. Check it out under Netscape.

452. PsychProf - 9/10/2000 1:17:52 PM

haha...Ed Gleason...I miss the Gleasons, and I would kick yer ass and hug yer head if had the chance. I have recruited 3 new Moteheads, and will keep bringing them in. This is a fine way to do it.

453. EricCartman - 9/10/2000 1:55:42 PM

BTW, thanks for the congrats, Cal and Arky.

454. vonKreedon - 9/10/2000 2:04:40 PM

I agree that there is far too little of the Ace of Spades show lately. But do we really want a Mote Campaign thread again. I know I said that I would meet Ace in any election at any time, but that was clearly a reference to elections held in the traditional four year and format organized by the multi-partisan Council On Debates For Intellectually Sophomoric Hacks. What Ace is proposing is a mindless spur of the moment scheme that is frought with risks for the future of the Mote and perhaps the Internet itself.

Also, as pointed out by Sto, the 2,000 character limit is an obvious detriment to reasoned discussion of the issues, discussion that is simply too intellectually rigorous for Ace, thus helping to explain why Ace is beholden to the big powers that are intent on keeping the power of extensive posts out of the hands of working... middle ... class...normal Motals.

455. PelleNilsson - 9/10/2000 2:05:03 PM

CalGal

Ha! It's all black. A New Zealand page.

456. vonKreedon - 9/10/2000 2:05:39 PM

Congratulations Eric.

457. CalGal - 9/10/2000 2:06:35 PM

Front page with links prominently displayed.

Also, you can click on a thread now and see WIP for the thread. I'm not sure about the red lines, yet. I want to be able to separate Go To and Posts per page (am I the only person that enters things in the wrong box?)

I want Go to up at the top, with the post #s. Posts per Page I'd wanted on the profile page, but a couple people mentioned that they really did use it fairly often to switch back and forth. I also want Home/Top/Bottom to be consistent in appearance, am still chewing. I didn't like my last take on it.

458. PelleNilsson - 9/10/2000 2:07:50 PM

Eric

Congratulations! Is it your first one? (Or should I say the first known one?)

459. dusty - 9/10/2000 2:13:04 PM

Congrats Eric!!!!

460. CalGal - 9/10/2000 2:22:51 PM

Oh, one more comment on the front page: I'm intending the bottom to be exclusively contact info (Gatekeeper, Alistair, Jay, Moderator).

I would do it now, but I have to go ride a bike and catch a train. This public transit thing sucks.

Oh, and Sto, if you're around: My bike has some sort of chain problems, so I'm riding Spawn's BMX. Just call me Stunt Mama.

461. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/10/2000 2:37:22 PM

Congrats, Cart!

462. EricCartman - 9/10/2000 2:43:32 PM

Thanks vK, dusty, Irv. Yes, it's the first -- and according to the wife so far, the last! But it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind, so we'll see....

463. PsychProf - 9/10/2000 2:44:27 PM

Get some sleep Snod!!! Or are ya just rising?

464. alistairconnor - 9/10/2000 4:13:29 PM

Pelle :

News links : there seems to be some misunderstanding of what they're for. The idea is that there is a continuous flow of new links being added, and the old links just get pushed down and roll off the bottom (only the 12 most recent are displayed) - so there's actually no need to update or delete them. They only go stale because there are not enough new ones being added.

The problem with that, as I realised when I thought about it some more, is that there are some links that deserve a longer lifetime. So what I propose is that we add a second list, under the first one, of "permanent" news links : a News item can be flagged (at creation or later on), to indicate that it belongs in this second, permanent (or at least slower-moving) list.

465. alistairconnor - 9/10/2000 4:17:14 PM

Cal :

And I like the idea of a separate page for the older news links.

466. ee - 9/10/2000 4:50:16 PM

AlD posting on e.e.'s computer
Congrats Eric. It seems as if I've been gone a year, but I have made a few posts this year, each time I've been in the Bay Area visiting e.e. Home to Kauai nest week, so I'll probably be on more often.

467. cigarlaw - 9/10/2000 5:00:30 PM

CONGRATULATIONS!!

You’re still around.

So am I.

468. thoughtful - 9/10/2000 5:02:01 PM

Congrats to EricC and the soon-to-be Cartbaby!

469. dusty - 9/10/2000 5:02:31 PM

Glad to hear it, cigarlaw

470. PelleNilsson - 9/10/2000 5:03:05 PM

Nice to see you, cigarlaw. I wish you would continue your treatise on cigars.

471. alistairconnor - 9/10/2000 5:17:58 PM

Cig : it's heartening to know you're still around too. Keep it up!

472. cigarlaw - 9/10/2000 7:59:18 PM

Pelle,

Okay, your wisLetters toh is my command. I will immediately stop working on my eulogy, Letters tomy grandsons, and the monthly newsletter Iedit and get down to really important things. Now, I think the reason may be my infrequent smoking of cigars these days. I am down to 10 to 15 percent a lung capacity and can work up to 30 minutes at a stretch without having to take a nap.

473. RickNelson - 9/10/2000 9:06:57 PM

I'm going to miss your posts cigarlaw. I've enjoyed your sometimes wry wit, personable stories ie.Cuba, poetry, knowledge and expression. You've enlightened me and shared yourself. I am better for having had your posts to read.

My prayers are you have family to comfort you, you have a higher power which relaxes you and find this time to contain blessings of love.

God bless you cigarlaw. I will remember you.

Post again when possible. I say these things from my heart, I know loss and you will be with me either way, posting or not.

I'll say hi to Sprite again for you, if she shows up. Or maybe you've kept contact.

I'm going to post one of your poems from 1998. Sorry I'm doing it without your permission. It's one I liked a lot back then. Thank you for sharing it.

474. RickNelson - 9/10/2000 9:07:36 PM

2395. cigarlaw - May 29, 1998 - 11:41 PM PDT
Chain poem

Beauty walked through the door
and was not seen
as she lay naked on the couch
She was hidden, couched in truth.

Her arms opened and I did not see
the slight smile as she welcomed me.
I couldn't know, Adonis wouldn't know
if reflected in her eyes he saw

himself blurred by the silent glow,
the hidden pain that lay below
that gentle smile and soft, warm breast.
Like Custer at the Greasy Grass, I fell, facing east,

Looking in vain for relief
overwhelmed, confused in unbelief
that this was my time to fall,
the end of all

So fatally the end to all I hold dear
That she would turn and suck me in her eyes
That her lips would sculpt my name, I swear!
The universe shall end with my soul as it dies!

We decided the time had come to deal
Affirmation of all that the senses feel
Slowly molding hands caress downward from head to toes
Compare this bliss to compassion that grows

Beauty walked out the door
and alone, as if to underscore
the loss, the bliss, the start,
her nakedness remains within my heart.

475. Wombat - 9/11/2000 8:46:58 AM

Congrats Cartman! Are you compiling a rock & roll kid songs CD? Don't forget "Modern Lovers Live," which has classics like "I'm a Little Airplane" and "Hey There, Little Insect." Also Bowie's "Kooks."

476. adrianne - 9/11/2000 9:34:45 AM

Eric

Congrats to you and Mrs!

Can you be a little more specific than "early spring" - Diva and I are both due at the beginning of March...shall we have a bake-off?

477. theDiva - 9/11/2000 12:28:21 PM

wow, another Mote baby. Congratulations, Eric!

478. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/11/2000 2:49:24 PM

A "Baby Pool" in the Mote? Cool idea.

479. CalGal - 9/11/2000 2:53:21 PM

Well, this might have been lost in the baby news, so here it is again.

What did you think of this front page?

If we all like it, I can tell Wabbit about the links to be added, and we can put it in place.

BTW, today is our official anniversary!

480. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/11/2000 3:01:20 PM

I'm working on something right now which could net us 5-10 new active members. If it doesn't work out, you'll hear nothing more. If it does, then I expect the usual adulation.

Why am I not posting this in the promo thread? Dunno.

481. rubberducky - 9/11/2000 3:06:46 PM

i like it CG

482. alistairconnor - 9/11/2000 3:19:09 PM

Irv, please come and contribute some steam to the Promotion thread...

483. alistairconnor - 9/11/2000 3:31:39 PM

Cal :

Can you make the Mote FAQ and HTML Hints links local? i.e. referring to files on the Mote server.

Other than that, looks fine.

484. RickNelson - 9/11/2000 3:33:11 PM

Has anyone noticed a post by Blaise?

If she's out of the Poetry hosting business, as she has been for over six to eight months now a new host is required. Indiana Jones noted this in Poetry.

If it's not objectionable for myself to host, I will give it a try. I'm not sure of schedules right now, but I'm sure I can contribute three or four times a week.

So any first and second nominations for Rick Nelson to host Poetry?

485. theDiva - 9/11/2000 3:43:58 PM

Cal

Looks nice, but one suggestion....on the FAQs, HTML hints, and so on, add a button to take the user either back to the main page or on to the next (or previous0 info page.

486. Fraaankster - 9/11/2000 4:18:30 PM

Congrats, Cartman!

I think you'll make a great parent!

487. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2000 4:24:10 PM

CalGal

I had this idea of moving utilities to the top of the page for better visibility. But Ttis is not a big matter and I think the new look is great. Go ahead!

488. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2000 4:28:09 PM

I most emphatically support Rick as host for Poetry.

489. CalGal - 9/11/2000 4:40:55 PM

Pelle,

Did you check over on the right? That's where all the utilities are. Isn't that big enough?

Alistair, yes, I've been meaning to move my stuff over for a while and will do that before we move this over. Tonight, probably.

Diva,

Yes, I'll do that. Should have picked up on it before now.

490. glendajean - 9/11/2000 4:42:34 PM

I second Pelle's comments. Rick for Poetry.

Cal - I like the adjustments. Your descriptions may help newbies understand threads better.

491. CalGal - 9/11/2000 4:44:49 PM

They're not my descriptions (sob). I think they crowd the front page. But I defer willingly to the majority.

Alistair, when you have time could you add another field to the thread description table? Say the length of a post?

492. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2000 4:53:13 PM

CalGal

Re Utilities. I checked to see if they were still at the bottom and they were. So I didn't expect them at the top as well. Sorry.

493. CalGal - 9/11/2000 4:57:54 PM

I will be changing the bottom to only include email contacts. Jay, Alistair, Gatekeeper, Moderator--anyone else?

494. arkymalarky - 9/11/2000 10:54:02 PM

Everything looks great to me.

Missed the news somehow, but CONGRATULATIONS AD!!!

495. rubberducky - 9/11/2000 11:22:06 PM

what about having the host's name listed at the top of the thread as a hyperlink to the host's e-mail?

the e-mail can be hard to find, and there can be an opt out if wanted.

(and, btw, calgal, there is no quick link to the last post in a thread - as i mentioned ... heh)

496. labwabbit - 9/11/2000 11:29:22 PM

Hey rd...

What's the word from the midland?

497. rubberducky - 9/11/2000 11:34:45 PM

labwab: answered

498. Greystoke - 9/12/2000 12:02:13 AM

499. Greystoke - 9/12/2000 12:04:13 AM

Will babysit for $1 per hour.

Above is a picture from my most recent engagement. We celebrated The Mote anniversary.

500. CalGal - 9/12/2000 12:04:17 AM

That's....well, it'd be sick if it weren't so damn funny.

501. CalGal - 9/12/2000 1:08:42 AM

Okay, here's the front page now. No big changes--check out the contacts at the bottom, and I've moved FAQs and HTML Hints to the server.


The Utilities have been taking off of my responsibility list and handed off to the Moderator (wasn't I clever?). So wabbit--or maybe the new vice-moderator--will need to create link entries for them. This makes it easier to support, but the first time through will be a hassle. I went in and renumbered the current links (50+ for search engines, 20+ for general, and then 1-whatever for Utilities).

This keeps the interface cleaner, and means that we have a bit more flexibility over changes to the links--if someone creates a useful doc page, they can get it into "production" without involving me or Alistair, just the moderator. Then we can come along later and make it official.

Once the link changes have been made, if it meets with no dreadful objections, this is ready to go. Alistair, feel free to clean up as needed.

502. CalGal - 9/12/2000 1:10:18 AM

Oh, one other thing--thread hosts, check your thread abstracts and make sure they are ready for prime time.

503. vonKreedon - 9/12/2000 1:10:48 AM

Happy Birthday to Us!
Happy Birthday to Us!
Happy Birthday all of Us!
Happy Birthday to Us!

P.S. Cal - I like the new front page.

504. EricCartman - 9/12/2000 1:56:20 AM

Wombat, Adrianne, Diva, Fraaank:

Thanks very much. I feel like I'm joining a sort of club, where the membership requirements aren't terribly strict. But it's definitely been very interesting so far, and looks to get even more so. The old Chinese saw about living in interesting times has really hit home this year, especially in the last month.


Wombat -- "Modern Lovers" is Jonathan Richman's band, yes? I imagine he'd write some cool kiddie rock n' roll songs. Big Star also comes to mind. Right now I'm just waiting for the l'il critter to start kicking, so's I can play my acoustic with the soundbowl resting on my wife's belly, á la Eddie Van Halen. Lullabyes in the womb, as it were.

Adrianne -- Don't have a due date just yet, but the best guesstimate looks to be March 27 or so. This would be a mildly peculiar coincidence, as my birthday is May 27 and my anniversary is Nov. 27. (Not that I'm much of an astrology/numerology guy, but it is passing strange.) Easy to remember, anyway.

Fraaank -- Thanks for the compliment, really. Hope I can live up to that; it's always been my little joke/excuse that I can barely take care of myself, much less someone else. But this is a change that I'm looking forward to. I guarantee the kid will hear hundreds of hours of Mozart before ever seeing a Pokémon or whatever. That is my vow.

505. EricCartman - 9/12/2000 1:57:52 AM

I've been really fortunate in that kids have not been a make-or-break deal with my wife and me. We agreed all the way down the line that if we were to do it, we'd like to do it before she hits 36 or so (she turns 35 next week). And if kids weren't in the cards for us, that would have been okay too.

One of her girlfriends is a bit obsessive about the whole deal, carefully tracking her ovulation so as to wake hubby at the ideal moment for copulation. Which is fine if it's important enough to you, but I like the more spontaneous, antural approach. So we really lucked out in that regard.

As it turns out though, there is a special component to this pregnancy for us. Since I was 19-years-old, literally, my mother had been asking me, hectoring me, "When you gonna make me a grandma, Eric?" And I never had an answer for her, yea or nay.

So August 4th we find out that we're going to have a youngun, and the very next day, after a prolonged illness, my mom passed away, not knowing our good news. (Though I did "tell" her in the hospital bed, she was unresponsive at that point.) Straight out of a chick movie. I swear, my life is a fuckin' soap opera sometimes.

(BTW, the above is not meant to garner sympathy, but rather to drive home some esoteric point about life in general, make of it what you will. But the last month has been a wild fucking ride for me, and I sincerely appreciate the condolences I received from the few who knew. It means quite a lot to me, really.)

506. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2000 1:57:57 AM

Hey VonK... did you see my comments on the Mote start-up? I finally went public with what happened to me a year ago. I remember you had asked, once upon a time.

507. vonKreedon - 9/12/2000 2:01:00 AM

Irv - Yeah, read that, you had pretty much told me everything over a course of emails in the few months after the destruction of the Fray. I wonder how Wes et al are doing?

508. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 2:45:19 AM

Eric
What a rollercoaster. Very moving. I have a god-daughter who was born a couple of days after my father died. I'm not the slightest bit inclined towards mysticism, but she'll always be very special to me, partly because of that.

I suppose the moral is, life goes on.

509. SnowOwl - 9/12/2000 2:59:21 AM

Eric,

What a hell of a month it must have been. Congratulations on your good news, and sincere condolences on the bad.

Parenthood is a huge adventure, and I've enjoyed every minute of it, even (or perhaps especially) at times when I've had my hands around my kids' throats attempting to choke the life out of them. I'm sure you'll enjoy it all as much as I have.

510. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2000 3:11:08 AM

Cart:
I have no regrets whatsoever from my 15 years of parenthood, and I wish you the same experiences. Life without kids would not be life for me.

I'm so sorry to hear about your mother.

511. Fraaankster - 9/12/2000 4:14:57 AM

Eric,

I am sorry to hear about your mother, also.

( A big hug to you )

On your comment about hardly being able to take care of one's own self, let alone a helpless infant, I can totally relate. I would love to enter the parenthood arena also, but an occasional doubt pops up at times as to whether I could really cut it. All I can assume at this point from my observations of all those close to me with children, is that one's priorities go topsy-turvy -- as it should. I wish your transition into parenthood well. ;-)
Yes, expose him/her to Wolfgang, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky to the hilt, and don't forget that Chomsky feller also. You might want to include some pointers on how to handle Jimmy Kimmel and studio lights, also.;-)

... I still don't know about allowing children on flights though ? ;-)

As far as life's rollercoasters go, I suppose I should be grateful that my life for the most part has been pretty steady and hasn't had the dramatic ups and downs that others I am acquainted with have experienced. On the other hand, currently I am going through some stuff that has put me in a funk that I haven't experienced in a very long long time, and it seems to be getting more gut wrenching with each new day. It has to do with my name being dragged through the mud, and being powerless to do anything about it.

I guess we need these experiences occasionally to point out just how good we usually have it, huh ? It certainly makes one put things in perspective I tell ya.

Ad,

Congradulations to you also. I didn't mean to leave you out, but I thought I had congradulated your good fortune in the Cafe already ?




( I didn't mean to vent here, guys. Just habit I guess.)

513. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2000 4:22:57 AM

No, leave out Chomsky, except for Transformational Grammar.

514. EricCartman - 9/12/2000 5:00:30 AM

Connor:

I'm not the slightest bit inclined towards mysticism, but she'll always be very special to me, partly because of that.

Yes, that's very much how I've been feeling about my situation as well. We attach mystical portents to these things that we don't really understand, but presume to have some sort of significance. Me, I decide that whatever it is is likely not meant to be understood, just recognized. Sometimes that's the best we can do, and it seems good enough to me.

515. EricCartman - 9/12/2000 5:04:09 AM

SnowOwl, Irv, Fraaank, Connor:

Thank you all for the condolences. Since my mother had been diagnosed as terminal back in February, there was no element of surprise or suddenness; it was only a question of when. Also, she had been chronically ill for the past 20 years, so I've known for half my life that she wouldn't see 60 years of age. And since I'm the eldest son, I've also been contending with everything from funeral arrangements to lawyers to hysterical relatives to playing phone tag with insurance companies.

Those factors certainly affected how I handled things, to a point where I seemed a bit cold or detached to friends and relatives. (Which is fair; I actually am pretty controlled in intense situations, unless I'm flat-out pissed.) But I've found that I can handle more than I thought I'd be willing to take on, which will certainly prove useful to know in the immediate future.


As much of a tough guy as I am though, I have to say -- Cigarlaw's got me beat, hands down. The guy's got King Kong balls, facing a terrible challenge with an admirable mix of grace, humor, and a "fuck you" attitude. My hat's off to him, and even though I don't believe in a particular god, if there is a Higher Being out there, I hope It's looking out for Cig, 'cause he shows a lot more strength and toughness and resilience than a lot of perfectly healthy people I know.

And before this turns into the Cart's Soap Opera Life Thread, I'm gonna head out for the night. Lately I've found that even just cruising in here intermittently has proven to be somewhat cathartic, no matter the topic, so I appreciate the forum for that. But many of you folks have also been very kind to me on an individual basis, listening to the recent adventures of my life, and I appreciate that as well.

516. bloodnfire - 9/12/2000 5:44:43 AM

My best wishes to everyone who is hurting this morning. Funny thing about this Mote, you feel like you get to know everyone pretty well, even though some of us have never communicated.

Eric, Cigarlaw, my compliments to both of you for your strength and grace in dealing with your life situations right now. Even when one knows that a loved one is 'terminal', it's still very tough to handle their passing away. I know you're not a 'Believer', Eric, but the Book does say..."Since we're surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses", and if indeed there is a life beyond this world, I am sure your Mom knows all about your baby, and is thrilled to bits.

Cigarlaw, I guess it was your poem which moved me so much at the end of December. I thought it might have been JonesAtLaw. Anyway, God bless you and continue to give you tremendous Grace and humor.

CalGal, I really like the new Front Page. You are one incredible lady.

517. Wombat - 9/12/2000 8:05:37 AM

Eric:

Yes, the Modern lovers was Jonathan Richman's band. The story is that after his first release, which featured "roadrunner" and other great songs, the buzz was really on when Richman released Modern Lovers Live. Unfortunately no one realized that the first album had been recorded years earlier, and that Richman had gone in another direction with new band members. I'll bet a number of people were furious when they put on the album and discovered that it was Jonathan Richman doing kid songs live. I didn't appreciate it until I played "I'm a little airplane for my daughter--and had to play it over and over...

518. theDiva - 9/12/2000 8:08:04 AM

Eric

My condolences, sweetie. I have no words of wisdom other than to say that my prayers are with you and your family.

519. angel-five - 9/12/2000 8:08:15 AM

Eric, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. I know you said you had warning, but still, there's never enough time to prepare for this sort of thing. Take care.

520. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2000 8:45:57 AM

I've just finished backtracking. I add my condolences, Eric. I lost my mother last year. As with you it was not unexpected, but when the moment comes, it causes a rift in the web of life that takes some time to heal.

521. stostosto - 9/12/2000 8:51:12 AM

Eric, congratulations on your pending fatherhood. I agree with Fraaaank as to your abilities. That kid will have fun, and that's the important thing. (Yes, it is! Don't give me that index finger-riddled routine about how to instil responsibility and decency and duty and sense and, and, and.... Fun does it! And if you think disciplinary index finger pedagogique will keep your kid from developing into a hopeless underachieving unserious slacker like, say, me, you haven't met, say, my father).

Sorry to hear about your mom.

522. Fraaankster - 9/12/2000 8:56:54 AM

Funny thing about this Mote, you feel like you get to know everyone pretty well, even though some of us have never communicated.

I felt that my first month here.



Eric,

I did not meant to equate what I am going through at the moment with the loss of your mother. I hope it didn't come across that way. And, I couldn't agree more with your take on Cigarlaw's fight and spirit. He is definitely a warrior whose plight is not only very moving, but also very inspirational as well.

My apologies if it came out that way.

I'm gonna try to get some sleep now (yawn). ttfn

523. Fraaankster - 9/12/2000 8:59:14 AM

Oh, and Greystoke, that picture had made laughing evrytime I thought about it.

I do question their choice of beer, though.

524. adrianne - 9/12/2000 9:32:26 AM

Eric

So sorry about your Mom, gosh. FWIW, some of us really believe that she does know about the sprog. I bet she's thrilled.

And that makes three of us due in March - theoretically, Diva, me, and then Ms.C. However, these things are famously unpredictable, so I think the bakeoff is on!

525. theDiva - 9/12/2000 9:41:45 AM

Actually, I'm due Feb 28, but Gracie was 3 days late, so I wouldn't be surprised if this were a March baby.

And yeah, I'll bet Eric's mom knows about the baby.

526. angel-five - 9/12/2000 9:51:19 AM

Things iz gonna be gettin' a little cra-zey around February in here with all these babes bein' pregnant and all.

527. JRoth - 9/12/2000 9:51:30 AM

I'm returning to the Mote after another work related absence. I was very interested to read the various posts which discussed the reasons for the Mote's success to date and suggestions for reinvigorating the community.

Personally, I never felt threatened or abused but I will admit my first posts on the old site where tentative and limited to areas of professional experience. As I gained confidence and received support from old-timers like Pelle I branched out into topics I haven't thought much about since the days of my fragmented and eclectic education. The results, for myself at least, were positive.

528. angel-five - 9/12/2000 9:53:01 AM

(does the math)

Did some chick flick come out in June on video, or something?

529. theDiva - 9/12/2000 9:53:14 AM

A5

damn skippy. So mind yer manners.

530. theDiva - 9/12/2000 9:53:36 AM

A5

uh-uh. We just got it like that.

531. theDiva - 9/12/2000 9:53:50 AM

Jeez Louise.

532. JRoth - 9/12/2000 9:55:28 AM

Apologies for the post script. I should add in honesty that the level and degree of personal invective has occasionally turned me off. I stopped posting in the NYTimes for similar reasons. I realise that passions flare during the heat of battle, but profanity is a poor substitute for reason and clarity.

533. theDiva - 9/12/2000 9:58:11 AM

JR

I've often wondered whether the invective and cussing chased new people away.

534. angel-five - 9/12/2000 9:58:37 AM

got that ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing thing, anyway.

My two favorite cra-zey babes are having babies again. Good. The world needs more people like you two. But, around February, I'll be hiding behind a protective barrier of pickles and ice cream and stuff.

535. angel-five - 9/12/2000 9:58:39 AM

got that ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing thing, anyway.

My two favorite cra-zey babes are having babies again. Good. The world needs more people like you two. But, around February, I'll be hiding behind a protective barrier of pickles and ice cream and stuff.

536. angel-five - 9/12/2000 9:59:09 AM

I'm doubling today. (sigh)

537. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:00:32 AM

well, thanks, sweetie. But make mine V-8 with horseradish, worcestershire, and hot sauce.

538. Fraaankster - 9/12/2000 10:05:47 AM

Did some chick flick come out in June on video, or something?

lol !

I thought it might have been because of a power outage I missed somewhere, but it would have had to be pretty extensive to affect the Cartmans all the way out here in the (b)est coast ... maybe it's something in the water ? ;-)

539. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:07:39 AM

A V-8 Virgin Mary?




pause...




remembering Diva's test scores from emode...



How utterly apropos.

540. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:08:29 AM

Fraaaaaaaaaank:

(chuckle)

The Night The Lights Went Out Damn Near Everywhere.

541. CalGal - 9/12/2000 10:08:48 AM

Awright, awright, get this chatter to the Cafe.

And for those who came late, Proposed new front page.

542. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:09:04 AM

coupla wisenheimers.....

543. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:09:53 AM

wait, wait, I have it. Was Antonio Banderas doing the late night talkies in June? (innocent grin)

544. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:11:19 AM

Cal

I'm going to come up with a new tagline for the Cafe. I fear that the current one is too 'in-joke' and might be off-putting.

Maybe 'The Mote's own corner bar....come have a cup of cyber-coffee and talk about your day.'

Bubb, Miss No? What do you think?

545. JRoth - 9/12/2000 10:13:57 AM

Diva,

I'm not that thin-skinned; 20 plus years in the Marines have exposed me to a fair share of profanity. But it often seemed to me that posters would run out of reasoned arguments and would substitute screaming invective. We used to call that panicking in the face of fire. Good to hear from you again.

546. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:14:21 AM

How 'bout 'Have a latte and find out what's in the water?'

547. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:16:33 AM

JR:

The rest of us call that 'amusing Bozo-fests' and generally whip up some popcorn and watch. But your comment is insightful nonetheless.

548. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:16:39 AM

JR:

The rest of us call that 'amusing Bozo-fests' and generally whip up some popcorn and watch. But your comment is insightful nonetheless.

549. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:16:57 AM

SIGH.

550. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:18:31 AM

JR

20 years, huh? Bless your heart, and thanks. And incidentally, I agree with you. It's a bit much.

A5

That's kinda nice.

551. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:20:08 AM

A5

It's amusing to those of us who are used to the protagonists and know who is joking (Ace vs. Eric, for example)...but I always worry how it looks to new people. And some of the other stuff is just too much. When it gets too thick I stop reading the thread for a while.

552. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:22:11 AM

and i realize how very Catholic-Mother this is of me.

553. JRoth - 9/12/2000 10:30:50 AM

BTW, When I returned to CONUS I think there was some mail announcing this 1st anniversary. If so, thanks to whomever...

554. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:35:27 AM

Diva: It wasn't serious.

Every time you do this 'catholic mother' thing you come perilously close to collapsing my entire paradigm of reality.I just can't make it fit into my preconceived notions.

Must be one of those crazy duality things you were talking about.

555. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:36:38 AM

Yeah, I know it wasn't but I still kinda like it.

And I live to, er....collapse your paradigm. Baby.

556. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:40:18 AM

(awe-stricken grin)

Most people have to be Catholic to feel like this, don't they?

557. CalGal - 9/12/2000 10:41:42 AM

JRoth,

Where were you before? Or did I miss a post? And respond in the Cafe, please, since that is (AHEM) supposed to be where chatter goes. Right, people?

558. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:41:49 AM

LOL!

559. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:42:08 AM

oops. Sorry, Mom.

560. angel-five - 9/12/2000 10:45:14 AM

CalGal:

Oh, come on, this is a Mote reminiscence thread and we're supposed to talk on topic? Doesn't that strike you as a bit contradictory?

Ah, well, maybe you're right, but I just feel so cranky today that you'll probably end up moving me to the Inferno. Cranky, cranky, cranky.

561. theDiva - 9/12/2000 10:48:56 AM

aahh, kwitcherbitchin and come to the Cafe. We got coffee in there.

562. CalGal - 9/12/2000 11:00:13 AM

So--one more time, in case people missed it--proposed front page

Any problems? Are the thread hosts interested in redoing their abstracts?

Also, I've heard from Alistair and he's added the longer thread description. It's the length of a post (2000). I haven't implemented it yet, but the thread page link (below) shows what I'm planning.

See here for the work in progress on the thread page. Note the abstract up in the corner, and the read here for more. Does that work? Is the abstract unobtrusive enough?

One other thing for comment--I hate hate hate the grey buttons. They upset my color scheme. >/prima donna<

But I tried custom buttons and apart from the additional coding hassle, they just looked too heavy. I wasn't happy.

I want to rework the order in the butterscotch bar, too. I don't like the inconsistent presentation of Home, and I want to separate "go to post" from "posts per page".

Comments?

563. theDiva - 9/12/2000 11:01:15 AM

Didja see my 544?

564. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2000 11:01:19 AM

A5:
Re: all your double posts. The nice thing about being one of the moderators of this thread is mistakes like that "never happen" (see message #512).

565. CalGal - 9/12/2000 11:03:09 AM

>/prima donna<

Hey. I hate it when I get "greater than" and "less than" mixed up and forget to preview.

I have the power to delete and repost, but I only use it for good.

So just change it to </prima donna>

566. CalGal - 9/12/2000 11:04:45 AM

Diva,

Yes, I did. Meant to respond. Any thread host can go into the admin tool and create or change their abstract. I agree that we should make them less "clubby".

567. PsychProf - 9/12/2000 11:05:01 AM

Cal...first rate work.

568. theDiva - 9/12/2000 11:05:30 AM

okay. Just making sure it didn't get lost in the flirtations, er, I mean, meanderings.

569. rubberducky - 9/12/2000 11:06:09 AM

CG

looks fine, but where does the "more here" link take you?

well, i like the current button colors better than those you have, but it's no big deal to me

(all i want is my "last post in thread" link, but i digress)

570. CalGal - 9/12/2000 11:09:08 AM

It doesn't take you anywhere right now, I don't have it implemented yet.

I don't have any buttons on the page now--I used to, but I didn't like them.

Oh, btw--I'm changing Cast your Mote and Check for Dust. It will just be Post and Check. I was being cute last year during beta, a few people liked it, and it stayed. Not that many people have bitched about it, but I'd rather stay on the conservative side.

571. DanDillon - 9/12/2000 11:13:14 AM

CG,
I'm nonplussed. How is your thread page any different really from how it presently stands? Aside from mild cosmetic changes and a new link few people will be wont to follow ("For more details..."), it's the same interactive experience.

For one so techinically saavy, I'd have thought you'd retool the whole shootin' match.

572. angel-five - 9/12/2000 11:14:19 AM

Who flirts? Every word out of my mouth is the simple, honest expression of my ardent soul.

Irv: Nice to see you, big man. I ran across a couple of my Marj stories the other day and started thinking about you all. A shame that Marj doesn't want me to write any more of them, I was just getting warmed up...

AS far as the new look goes -- I know this is entirely predictable, but I like longer introductions as opposed to shorter ones, and the abstract is sort of ugly looking.

573. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2000 11:19:16 AM

A5:
Good to see you around. You have been missed. I'd love to see more Marj stories. Perhaps you could "disguise" the name?

574. CalGal - 9/12/2000 11:19:52 AM

Dan,

For one thing, it's a WIP. (work in progress). I'm not done yet.

For another, I started with a complete rework and may go back to it. But I wasn't happy with some aspects of it, and I find it works best if I start over and put in features one by one.

Angel,

That's why we've just added a thread intro, which is the length of a post. The host will be able to describe the purpose of the thread. But it can't be on the page itself, imo, or it will be too distracting. See TT for examples.

575. angel-five - 9/12/2000 11:20:52 AM

I also think it'd be cool if the intro text contained some hyperlinks to the discussion within the thread itself, esp. in threads where you'll find a lot of different topics. if we do this we come to the potentially messy problem of the host having to choose which discussions to link to, which poster gets linked, which discussions don't get linked, and so on, but it's still a thought.

576. angel-five - 9/12/2000 11:28:10 AM

That's why we've just added a thread intro, which is the
length of a post. I know. I was expressing my royal approval. God knows, brevity sucks.

577. CalGal - 9/12/2000 11:29:34 AM

The thread host can add links such as you describe. I agree that it would be a useful way of allowing people to find out what started where.

578. angel-five - 9/12/2000 11:46:37 AM

Irv:

No, my man Marjori absolutely has to give his blessing, and then I have to observe his posts for a while and wait for the muse to alight. God knows, I write these things with nothing but love in my heart, but I don't want the guy to feel put upon.

I'd feel kinda funny writing a 'Barjori Manks' story in any case.

579. vonKreedon - 9/12/2000 1:45:41 PM

Cal - Both Front and Thread look good. The current thread page has the message range between the VCR buttons at the top and bottom of the page; the mock up does not, could it?

580. CalGal - 9/12/2000 1:51:03 PM

I moved it up top like that to kind of shake up the look and feel. We're all still used to a format that is pretty similar to the old place. But sometimes different isn't necessarily better. So do you like the more colorful heading, with the thread name, the host, and then the posts on that page? I would also like to add "Go to" up in that section, as well.

If enough people don't like it, I can move the post range back to where it is now.

581. CalGal - 9/12/2000 1:51:46 PM

I would like to move the front page in tonight. It's ready to go, I think. The only issue is getting the new links into the admin table. I'll talk to Alistair about how we get that done.

582. rubberducky - 9/12/2000 1:53:07 PM

i prefer the numbers between the buttons where they are now, fwiw

583. ChristinO - 9/12/2000 2:24:44 PM

I also prefer the post numbers between the buttons if only because it's less space at the top of the page that I have to scroll through to get to the actual posts. The top looks a little sparse. Are you at home? I'll send you an email.

584. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:27:28 PM

Hey! Front page is in!

585. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:30:16 PM

... sorry it's late, I spent an hour correcting your HTML bugs.

(The bill for $100 is in the mail)

586. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:34:18 PM

You keep saying that, but I copied the production version and did nothing to listthreads. The only change I made was to Viewthreads.pm, for the different format.

587. Thoughtful - 9/12/2000 5:39:29 PM

Are you guys here doing the header lines under the thread topics? There's a We we typo in H&G's header....not really appropriate for that thread.

588. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:43:11 PM

There were two places where there were (very minor) HTML errors (but I'm a perfectionist).

One is in the formatting of the threads, your new code, which I patched into the production version of viewthread.pm. The other was the contact links at the bottom of the page.

In both cases, the errors were minor : crossed or unclosed tags, which are probably without consequence on most browsers.

OK, I exaggerated : Half an hour. $50.

589. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:44:48 PM

Okay, contacts links could be so. I hadn't checked that out--btw, when I said "tonight", I meant my "tonight".

But I made my changes to viewthread.pm directly, so I'm not sure what you say you copied in.

590. KurtMondaugen - 9/12/2000 5:45:26 PM

kudos, y'all.

591. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:46:01 PM

Hey! Back under the old id, I see.

592. KurtMondaugen - 9/12/2000 5:46:55 PM

Seemed appropriate under the circumstances.

593. theDiva - 9/12/2000 5:47:37 PM

wow, it's the Moondoggie!

594. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:48:03 PM

Well, I told you we'd still be here...

595. KurtMondaugen - 9/12/2000 5:48:44 PM

And while congratulations are certainly in order, I have to say that I'm in no way surprised that you guys have managed to maintain the site for a full year.

That's a compliment, of course.

596. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:52:27 PM

btw, when I said "tonight", I meant my "tonight"

Yeah, well it's nearly midnight here. That's nearly 11pm GMT. I have no clear idea what time it is wherever you are.

597. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:53:23 PM

Don't mind us Kurt, we're just bitching for the gallery, to avoid the impression of a manipulative cabal running the place...

598. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:54:18 PM

Alistair,

Yeah, well it's nearly midnight here.

Yes, I know. I was amused at the miscommunication, not upset. I had just thought it would be better in the American late hours, given the change in appearance. I was working and hadn't had time to do a final walkover. No matter, though.

599. ChristinO - 9/12/2000 5:54:36 PM

Hi Kurt! It's good to see you.

Alistair, it's 3pm here.

600. ChristinO - 9/12/2000 5:54:51 PM

Er.....it's 3pm YESTERDAY here.

601. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:55:06 PM

... then why did you say it was ready? My turn to be amused.

602. theDiva - 9/12/2000 5:55:16 PM

huh?

603. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 5:56:14 PM

No, ChristO, it's not tomorrow for another five minutes. Except in New Zealand of course, where it's nearly lunchtime.

604. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:56:21 PM

Because I'm one of those people who always leaves things til the last minute, and I thought I had until tonight. So I said it was ready.

But of the two bugs you mention, I still don't understand what code you moved and it's unlikely I would have doublechecked the contact links, so we'd be in the same position.

605. ChristinO - 9/12/2000 5:56:25 PM

CG,

Did you get my email? Do you hate it? It's okay. You can say so. I won't (sniffle) cry or anything.....much.....

606. CalGal - 9/12/2000 5:59:11 PM

I'm trying to load data for a client and so I'm not thinking interface stuff right now. I'll check tonight, yes?

607. alistairconnor - 9/12/2000 6:00:06 PM

Well, if you don't verify the correctness of the final HTML output, you'll never get it faultless.

I just patched the format_thread routine into my version of viewthread.pm and uploaded that, because I'm adding some new features too. If that routine was the only thing you changed in that file, I'll put it back on the development server so that we stay more or less in sync.

608. ChristinO - 9/12/2000 6:04:41 PM

CG,

Coolio.

609. CalGal - 9/12/2000 6:07:40 PM

What I'm trying to say (and apparently doing badly) is that the only thing I changed was to remove the word General and add the contact links. Other than that, I edited ViewThread.pm directly and updated the relevant parts.

The first thing I did was copy over the files you sent me--before I changed them.

Hence my confusion. You said (both here and in email) that you had changed something of mine that I didn't touch. Of course, right about now I start doubting my sanity so I'll check it when I get home.

610. rubberducky - 9/13/2000 9:21:16 AM

i don't like the way the Mote Links launches a new browser window

(this is the post-a-bitch thread, right?)

611. alistairconnor - 9/13/2000 9:30:45 AM

It's done on purpose, Loverduck. To avoid the danger that the user finds the linked site so interesting that they never come back to the Mote.

612. rubberducky - 9/13/2000 9:37:46 AM

AC

yes, i can see that. it is just generally annoying, imo, when the link is to a page on the same server.

a different page to GeoCities, for example, i can see. however, i accept that this is the developer in me bitching, so i'll hush.

613. CalGal - 9/13/2000 1:18:38 PM

Alistair, I agree that if we could make the "new window" optional if thread no = 0, it'd be great. I didn't like the new window either.

614. vonKreedon - 9/13/2000 1:21:44 PM

Personally I appreciate it when a new window is launched if I go outside of the thread structure. That way I can page back and forth without reloading the pages. But then, I've always been a guy who like to have a half dozen or more windows open at all times.

615. ChristinO - 9/13/2000 1:37:33 PM

I'm with my Cos on this one. I like having the new window pop up because then I can find whatever it is I'm looking for and come back to the original window without flipping around to find my place.

Particularly if I'm looking up HTML hints or a quotable source. Generally what I'm doing is trying to provide support to a post I'm creating so I'm active in the posting window on the original page and browsing around in the new window looking for stuff to cut and paste.


maybe no one else does this, however.

616. rubberducky - 9/13/2000 1:40:37 PM

um

right click the link and click "open in new window" if that's what you want ...

generally, however, good site design doesn't pop open windows unless the user is notified that's gonna happen

617. RustlerPike - 9/14/2000 3:36:36 PM

Thank you, thank you. But I really don't think all of the credit for the Mote's success should go to me.

618. marshame - 9/14/2000 3:52:50 PM

So is this the Mote Aniversary Thread or the Technical Crap Thread???

Hey Rustler, how's things in the Holy Land?

619. RustlerPike - 9/16/2000 5:02:11 AM

marsh:

Pretty volatile. I think this is what the phrase 'Holy shit' was originally coined for. Join us in International - if you dare!

620. Macnas - 9/16/2000 5:14:01 AM

A year old eh? I did'nt doubt this place would survive, with all the good people and all.

Is that oversimplified? ah well there you go.

621. RosettaStone - 9/16/2000 8:54:23 AM

Thank you. Thank you very much.

622. CalGal - 9/17/2000 6:27:38 PM

I'm not sure if anyone remembers how we started referring to HTML as "toys". My recollection is a certain incident with Pincher Martin and lists.

I thought I had saved the actual posts, but I can't find them anywhere on my hard drive, and I think they were deleted when we went live. But I remember the gist of it, so I recreated the posts for posterity. I'm not sure if Joezan was there, but there was one other poster, I'm pretty sure, besides the three that I absolutely know were there: Pincher, Slack, and me. I think it was Joe, but if someone remembers who it was for sure, let me know.

Toy Story

623. Slackjaw - 9/18/2000 1:03:57 AM

My god, you have captured my dweebishness perfectly in that reenactment.

624. Slackjaw - 9/18/2000 1:04:39 AM

and by the way, happy anniversary mote.

625. CalGal - 9/18/2000 1:06:47 AM

geeeeeeeeek, geeeeeeeeek

Do you remember when it happened? Your "must have air" still cracks me up.

626. Slackjaw - 9/18/2000 1:18:55 AM

I do remember it. But I can't remember the mystery person's identity.

"Whoa!?" was, by far, the best part of the recreation.

627. CalGal - 9/18/2000 1:25:25 AM

To tell you the truth, I substituted "Whoa" for your actual comment, which had to do with the distribution of the list tags and their Bayesian qualities.

628. Slackjaw - 9/18/2000 1:31:06 AM

that's fine; they are roughly equivalent in terms of useful content.

629. JayAckroyd - 9/18/2000 11:01:49 AM

Appropos of the discussion upthread about making the mote more inviting, I've just made a couple posts in a style that is quite different than I would usually use. The comments I wanted to make either implicitly or explicitly referred back to stuff that was discussed quite some time ago. I feel sure the people who were around then would remember the previous discussion, and so I would have made any reference to the past in shorthand that would have been incomprehensible to a newcomer.

Instead, I wrote out the references more explicitly, at the risk of boring or irritating people who were familiar with the previous discussion. There will always be a certain opacity in your first experience with any online discussion group. Is it in our interest to try to be a little less clubby in our posts? Or will that ruin the atmosphere?

630. Webfeet - 9/18/2000 11:54:13 AM

Looking back on these posts, it's hard not to be impressed or affected by the amount of time, energy and goodwill that went into creating this site and making it work. So what are we trying to prove? That a measure of its success would be to have Tabletalk frequenters defect by the hundreds to come over to our sandbox? It would be unrealistic to expect that the cyber community en masse recognizes our 'specialiness' just as it is also unrealistic to expect five star conversations on every thread, 24/7. Even the Fray had its bad days, but perhaps those bad days are overlooked because it enjoyed the prestige of being associated with an upmarket news publication.

What is unfair and weak is to blame others directly or indirectly for the low number of new members. This was a collective effort, and in that sense, we are all responsible for its quality, if that is the issue. Often I have thought, if only I had something interesting to say lately. Certainly, my life has changed. I am not single, living in Paris full of zany little anecdotes, nor do I read as much a I did in graduate school. I am married, a mother and I realize that has its limitations. Im sure one way or another we all have our limitations, but it doesn't mean we have to stop growing intellectually or that we have to flagellate ourselves for not sustaining the interest of those who come and go. This site is on a much smaller scale and I hope it grows. In the meantime, let's keep things in perspective and celebrate its good qualities.

I'd write more, but it is hard to round out a thought or get too carried away when my baby is absolutely livid right now that Im ignoring him. And, we are both covered in banana pineapple desert.

631. JayAckroyd - 9/18/2000 12:15:43 PM

The answer is that unless there is a sufficiently large number of members, the discussions will become repetitive, the lulls longer, the discussants fewer, and, gradually, it won't be interesting enough to sustain itself anymore.

I guess you're saying that you think the current membership is sufficient. I don't really know if it is or not. Irv says it isn't, and he knows more about this kind of thing than any of the rest of us do. I happen to think he's right, but also think there is a participant level that is too high for this unthreaded interface.

632. stan gorsian - 9/18/2000 12:22:51 PM

hi CalgAl and jayakackroyd,! congradulations on your first annniversary- but starting a 'thread" just becuase you-ve managed to stay maried four one year is a bit much,!!

633. PsychProf - 9/18/2000 12:57:31 PM

Hahaha...let's see...has to Floyd at work here.

634. robertjayb - 9/18/2000 2:06:30 PM

.
stan gorsian!

I thought you were a figure of myth and legend.

635. CalGal - 9/18/2000 2:07:54 PM

but also think there is a participant level that is too high for this unthreaded interface.

What does this mean?

636. JayAckroyd - 9/18/2000 4:17:26 PM

It means that there is some level of participation that would make this interface ineffective. Certainly 10,000 posts per topic would be untenable, without threading. I suspect the untenable number is much lower than that. It's seldom you'll see more than two or three issues discussed at one time on one of our forums.

637. CalGal - 9/18/2000 4:29:43 PM

Oh! "There is [a participant level]" as a possible situation. I was reading "there is" as the current situation. (eg, we have a participant level too high, etc.)

638. alistairconnor - 9/18/2000 4:41:42 PM

I think the true sustainable level might consist of only two or three times the current volume of posts -- but with five to ten times the number of posters.

I think that with the new features we're rolling out -- archives, conversations in particular -- we can make the format work better; but personally, the reason I'm putting the effort in is that I'm hoping that people will be motivated enough to put in a semi-concerted effort about promoting the site.

If that doesn't happen -- and either I'm missing something, or it's not happening yet -- then I give it another six months before it reaches stagnation point.

I understand the feelgoods that everyone is getting out of the private-club aspect - it's fantastic to see names we haven't seen in a while - but personally it's not enough for me.

639. JayAckroyd - 9/18/2000 4:43:33 PM

I agree entirely with Alistair's post.

640. CalGal - 9/18/2000 4:44:46 PM

I do too.

641. marjoribanks - 9/18/2000 4:52:15 PM

AC,

The features you're putting in work towards will make no difference towards getting new blood. Guaranteed.

In fact, I have tried (as have others) to get people here without too much success. But we are clubby to a certain extent, and certain participants are both ubiquitous and completely unecessarily resistant to any kind of evolution in the manner of exchange.



I don't have a solution for you. But I would think hard about the way forward for your excellent interface before adding man-hours worth of work on things that will not make a difference.

642. marjoribanks - 9/18/2000 4:53:27 PM

But=Because

643. alistairconnor - 9/18/2000 4:55:33 PM

I'm hoping the features will make the site more intelligible to the newcomer -- bear in mind that, knowing the codes, we don't see how difficult that can be -- but also, I hoped that a few people would put some effort into brainstorming promotional ideas, and actually follow them through. There is even a thread for it, which is languishing. It's time for someone to pick up the idea and run with it.

644. marjoribanks - 9/18/2000 5:02:50 PM

Yes, AC, if someone like yourself - who managed to produce this magnificent interface - would run with the promotional ball, this site would truly take off. But who is that person? It'd likely be someone who's new blood and openminded enough to avoid that element I've mentioned above.

May be impossible. I suppose it's up to the fates (and the local deity AC).

645. CalGal - 9/18/2000 5:14:06 PM

I do wish people could stay away from making posts about "that element". It's unpleasant. We don't all get along, but we're all here.

As far as promotion goes--I thought the second thread was ill-advised; the energy here was pretty good. But wherever the effort goes towards, what to do next? I investigated a number of link exchange programs and couldn't find any that seemed to fit. This is probably due to ignorance on my part.

What other promotion is possible? Press releases--Irv thougth they wouldn't do any good, or that a complete article needed to be written. Other people, such as Jay, thought there was no use in writing an article.

So I'm quite confused about what the next steps should be.

646. alistairconnor - 9/18/2000 5:20:39 PM

Then you're probably not the person who should be responding. Sometimes it's simply better not to post, unless a wet-blanket effect is what you're aiming for.

647. CalGal - 9/18/2000 5:24:13 PM

Alistair,

I am amazed that you read marjoribanks' posts and then tell me that I'm a wetblanket.

I don't think I'm entitled to your bullshit. But if I must deal with it, keep it offline.

648. labwabbit - 9/18/2000 5:28:48 PM

AC

(I'm withholding a post here.)

649. Don S. - 9/18/2000 7:53:07 PM

AC

(Me too.)

650. RickNelson - 9/19/2000 11:33:20 AM

Does an option exist by which we could place links to the Mote for free? I've missed any discussion wrt this idea. Please give a quick yes or no so I know the answer as fact or fiction. Thanks.

651. rubberducky - 9/19/2000 1:46:34 PM

feel free to link to theMote from any page, i'd imagine, Rick

(PS i always confuse you with Rick Norwood - no offense, if any, intended)

652. labwabbit - 9/24/2000 1:03:33 PM

Going....

653. Michael Mele - 9/26/2000 11:38:55 PM

Hi everyone --

Here's a different question from "how to promote":

If Table Talk dies, will The Mote be able to handle a sudden influx of new members?

This is not an entirely off the wall question. There are atmospherics in the sys-op postings that seem ominous to me -- for one thing they've started explaining their actions, for another they seem suspiciously nice. I've never quite believed in the profitability of Salon, or the prospect of profitability. Table Talk must surely be a resource hog.

If a bunch of new members (for whatever reason) come in here, will The Mote be overwhelmed?

This is not an entirely disinterested question. I'm beginning to think that the wise child has more than one place to hang his hat.

654. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 11:40:43 PM

Michael

Bring it on. Oh, but first, say hi to Calgal. She runs this place.

655. Michael Mele - 9/26/2000 11:42:01 PM

Who's "that element" -- would I like them?

656. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 11:48:21 PM

If you're rational, self-confident, opinionated, individualistic, and young, probably not. But if you kiss ass well and play politics, you're in like Flynn. But that's just one man's opinion.

==):-)

Welcome, by the way. It's not as scary as I make it sound.

657. joezan - 9/26/2000 11:48:55 PM

Hey, MM.

You're welcome to hang your hat here.

(But keep your pants on, ok?)

658. Michael Mele - 9/26/2000 11:50:01 PM

CalGal and I have met.

Hi CalGal!

659. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 11:50:46 PM

You're off to a good start, Mike. See ya 'round.

660. Michael Mele - 9/26/2000 11:52:04 PM

CalGal and I have met.

Hi CalGal!

661. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 11:53:17 PM

Don't hit refresh, Mike. You'll double-post if you do. That's one of the Mote's 'Features'.

662. joezan - 9/26/2000 11:54:04 PM

Rule #1.

Wait till you're back home before you refresh.

663. joezan - 9/26/2000 11:54:35 PM

I'm gonna kill myself.

664. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 11:56:50 PM

I love you, Joe.

==):-)

665. joezan - 9/26/2000 11:59:01 PM

Hey - next post is the Jonath-ennial!

666. Michael Mele - 9/27/2000 12:05:48 AM

CalGal and I have met.

Hi CalGal!

667. Michael Mele - 9/27/2000 12:08:02 AM

Holy cow! I didn't see the "don't refresh" notes until after I snagged #666. An ill-omened event.

So what's the best way to check for new posts, and is there a place where I can ask newbie questions?

668. Nostradamus - 9/27/2000 12:09:34 AM

Ask newbie questions in Try the Mote.

The top thread is the one with the most recent post. There's a bookmarking feature which somebody who uses it can tell you about in Try the Mote.

669. quivver - 9/27/2000 12:39:31 AM

I'm crawling out of migraine hell for this, but have the people that run the Mote sat down so to speak and decided how much potential volume they were willing to deal with? If they're up for 10000 users, tabletalk could blow up and it wouldn't be too much of a problem. If they want a smaller group of like 500 or so, that's a different situation. Recruiting differs based on how many new shiny types one would like. Ok, back to bed.

aem.

670. CalGal - 9/27/2000 1:10:13 AM

Michael,

About TT: That's a great question, and one that I've wondered about as well. Have you noticed the performance slowdown, lately? And if they are running out of money someone has to notice that their forum costs a small fortune.

I don't think we'd be overwhelmed, because I'm pretty sure that we'd only pick up a small percentage of the whole forum, if that.

But from a performance standpoint, I believe Jay has said we could run at around 1000 members (I don't think he meant concurrent posters). So we could take quite a few more people before it would become a problem.

Culturally it's a different issue, but I just can't see us becoming overrun, given that we have central control over thread creation.

671. CalGal - 9/27/2000 1:12:39 AM

quivver,

You're exactly right about how recruiting differs. We've never wanted to be Tabletalk, and even when we were at our previous forum (Slate's Fray), we never had that many regular posters--200 or so, I believe Irv has said.

But we have room to grow without becoming overwhelmed sheerly on numbers, I think.

672. Michael Mele - 9/27/2000 2:20:50 AM

CalGal --

So the performance slowdown at TT isn't my imagination, huh?

Jess Fine is leaving and apparently not being replaced right away. Elizabeth Nolan has been there late, and is becoming perky in her responses to people -- at the same time even simple requests for improvements are being answered with a perky assurance that it will go on the "wish list" as no changed are planned for a while.

Thread creation is no biggie for MM, I've only ever created three in two years. Besides I know more people here than I think I know probably.

I think you're probably right about the bulk of TTers being likely to go elsewhere if they are required to search for a home. Most of them seem more interested in big ole logs, rather than lively little motes.

The Web remains a mystery to me in terms of promotion. Software is an even bigger mystery. I've learned so many tagging systems over the years that I kinda promised myself that I wouldn't learn much html. A promise I'll break eventually, but I enjoy a tiny cup of luddism from time to time.

673. CalGal - 9/27/2000 2:30:10 AM

at the same time even simple requests for improvements are being answered with a perky assurance that it will go on the "wish list" as no changed are planned for a while.

Hey, a buncha us have heard that before.

I just learned about Jess Fine recently; I quit monitoring the policy thread a while ago, but it definitely sounds ominous. Is MaryBeth still around, or did she leave?

There hasn't only been a slowdown, but there have also been a number of bugs--for a while, you could only get into the thread list through a direct link. There was a bug in the page that caused it to stop loading. That went a day or two without being fixed.

I think if TT died that we'd pick up a good group. I just don't think we'd be overrun. On the other hand, what other big forums are left? The NYTimes, I know. LA Times has one that I haven't checked out. I think CNN closed its boards--or maybe that was only the politics thread.

674. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/27/2000 4:26:56 AM

Michael:
Whether or not we get an influx from TT, I'd like to extend a welcome to you. I hope you find some threads of interest and stick around.

I don't expect we'd be a prime target of a mass exodus from TT. We don't have the dynamics that those folks enjoy. But we do have an interesting community, and some interesting topics to weigh in on.

Anyone who finds our style of interest is very welcome to join. From previous experience, we realize this isn't everyone, but we'd welcome some new blood, definitely.

675. Michael Mele - 9/27/2000 4:31:35 PM

CalGal --

Someone recently mentioned TWOL (Time-Warner On-Line) which may be the successor to the CNN boards.

People who also post in TT might want to create a little address book of TT members who might like this place, just in case Salon pulls the plug.

Irving --

Thank you very kindly.

677. harper - 9/27/2000 5:31:19 PM

Hello everybody. Happy birthday (anniversary?) to the Mote. I'm glad you're all still here because I've missed you. Life intervened. Thanks for the e-mail message. It reminded me to drop by again. I'll try to stick around this time.

678. CalGal - 9/27/2000 5:35:31 PM

Nos,

Enough, or I'll start deleting your posts. Keep them on topic, and take your little obsession to a forum that gives a damn.

Michael,

That's a good idea, actually. I'll start doing that.

698. msgreer - 9/27/2000 6:30:04 PM

I have been absent from theMote for a very long time. I want to thank my fellow Moties for welcoming me back in such a nice way. I have missed you, wondered about how you were.

MOST Moties kindness has me feeling very good. After losing my mother I turned back to theMote for the friendship and of course the gossip!

It is our first anniversary. All in all I feel we need to give each other a hug and scream LOOK AT US SLATE! LOOK AT THE JOB WE HAVE DONE!

Congratulations to the powers who worked so hard to make OUR community the very best.

718. Cellar Door - 9/27/2000 10:02:52 PM

So happy to see Michael Mele in The Mote!

719. Michael Mele - 9/27/2000 10:17:09 PM

At least until he starts knockin' on the Cellar Door, eh?

720. CalGal - 9/27/2000 11:12:00 PM

Sorry for the white space. I decided the whole thing was unsightly. However, the posts weren't deleted, they were just moved to the Inferno.

Michael--just heard that Elizabeth said that they are planning on replacing Jess, after all.

721. quivver - 10/2/2000 7:53:07 AM

There are something like 100ish people here. I imagine if each one persuaded ten more to have a look-see, the one or three per person that stayed would be enough to keep discourse fresh and inviting. Of course, this is assuming everyone knows ten people to persuade that they haven't attempted to drag over here already. :D

722. IrvingSnodgrass - 10/2/2000 8:11:51 AM

quiv:
I suggested that earlier, and still think it's a good idea.

723. PsychProf - 10/2/2000 10:07:52 AM

I'm doing it.

724. IrvingSnodgrass - 10/2/2000 10:19:05 AM

Me too, PP.

725. CalGal - 10/2/2000 10:45:29 AM

I've told all my friends about the Mote, and some of them have checked it out--one even posted here for a while. But they don't really see the point. ("Why would you spend time on a computer talking to other oddballs? Aren't your regular oddball friends enough for you?")

So it's not the Mote that they aren't interested; it's online forums.

I've had better luck with those I've met in online forums.

726. mgleason - 10/2/2000 10:57:33 AM

My friends give me the fish-eye when I talk about visiting. The only one I might be able to persuade is my cousin, but she's a lackwit. It's bad enough I have to listen to her.

727. PsychProf - 10/2/2000 11:00:56 AM

Haha..Maria...the fish eye was a common description among my extended family...confused long term staring was called the dog eye...

728. mgleason - 10/2/2000 11:04:41 AM

Heh, Prof. In my family, that was the cow-eye!

729. theDiva - 10/2/2000 11:05:55 AM

among Italian-Americans it is known as 'the hairy eyeball'.

730. Wombat - 10/2/2000 11:55:53 AM

Not just among Italian-Americans.

731. IrvingSnodgrass - 10/2/2000 10:14:07 PM

Cal:
I was thinking exclusively of on-line friends, and have had some success.

732. ChristinO - 10/4/2000 1:36:46 PM

Since our Anniversary is nearly a month past and what we mostly talk about now is promotion I'm RIPing this thread.

733. msgreer - 10/4/2000 2:15:39 PM

800-973-2211 Curious? Go to Health Thread.

734. pseudoerasmus - 10/5/2000 3:36:37 PM

135. PelleNilsson - 9/7/00 7:32:13 PM PE moved to TT because his brilliance stands out better there than here. In simpler terms: there are more fools to slap around in TT. Pincher moved there too because he likes slugfeasts but he doesn't like to lose them. Again, the TT environment is more "friendly" in this respect.


Swedish cunt, realise this: as much as it may please your vanity to think that one should prefer the intellectual company of some middle-aged telecoms salesman, that is not so. I moved to the international folder of TT (not TT as a whole) quite simply on account of its greater international diversity. At the mote there is but a handful of non-Americans, 50% of whom are Scandinavians speaking platitudinously. And there are more fools there than here, but only in absolute numbers and certainly not in percentage terms.

735. PelleNilsson - 10/5/2000 3:52:49 PM

Hahaha! Well put PE. ...middle-aged telecoms salesman... is so cutting, and cunt so inventive. I'm devastated.

736. RosettaStone - 10/5/2000 4:08:33 PM

If PE is returning, I'm leaving...

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