The Mote Archive - Conflict in the Middle East, pt.6

Where are all the self righteous NeoCon Human Rights clucksters now?

CIA Internal Probe of "Ghost" Detainees

Washington -- The CIA is seeking to determine whether its operatives had a role in the imprisonment of so-called ghost detainees, Iraqi prisoners who were held without names, charges or other documentation at U.S.-run prisons across their homeland, intelligence officials said Tuesday.

A little-noticed portion of the military's classified report into the abuse of prisoners in Iraq says that a number of jails operated by the 800th Military Police Brigade routinely held such prisoners "without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention

5003. thoughtful - 5/4/2004 11:36:06 PM

vonk, why do i not believe that. why do i not believe that scaife&co who pursued wjc for years before he even met lewinsky would have behaved any differently if clinton had said, "i did not have vaginal intercourse with that woman." Perhaps it's because that gop star schwarzenegger has suffered no repercussions for declaring "eatin' ain't cheatin'" in front of his wife on national television. Perhaps it's because the gop, the party of law and order, has declared rape and torture and murder of prisoners to be "just letting off steam." or "just softening the prisoners up".

So, take martha who was convicted of lying about a crime they never proved she committed, had she told the truth would have been convicted of insider trading instead. Some choice. Meanwhile the likes of skilling and lay and so many others are still roaming free.

5004. thoughtful - 5/4/2004 11:36:25 PM

Not that the rules are different, but the vigor with which they are applied depends upon to whom they are applied.

Kerry lambasted for tossing his ribbons away, ribbons that he earned...while w is shielded by his powerful family so he gets out of dangerous duty, gets an honorable discharge despite being awol.

No, rather than suggest wjc needed only to tell the truth about some personal pecadillo that had absolutely no implications for national policy, rather it would have been far more rational and respectful to never have asked the question in the first place. But scaife & co were not going to stop. They desperately wanted to oust a duly elected, sitting president. and nothing would stop them. Nothing did but term limits.

My apologies for getting off topic in this thread. I'll cease now.

5005. jexster - 5/5/2004 3:30:14 AM

LONDON - U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites)'s personal human rights envoy to Iraq (news - web sites) said Wednesday.

The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true.

During five visits to Iraq in the last 18 months, Clwyd said, she stopped at British and U.S. jails, including Abu Ghraib, and questioned everyone she could about the woman's claims. But she did not say whether the people questioned included U.S. forces or commanders.

5006. jexster - 5/5/2004 3:44:53 AM

Full Text Taguba Report

5007. jexster - 5/5/2004 4:09:35 AM

5008. Absensia - 5/5/2004 5:14:24 AM

I read the Taguba report. It criticized BG Karpinski for not taking responsibility and, basically, not saying she was sorry. But hey, Bush can't seem to get the "s" word out of his mouth either.

5009. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:32:51 AM

WASHINGTON - The number of prisoner deaths in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) known to be under U.S. criminal investigation or already blamed on Americans rose to as many as 14 on Wednesday. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was called to testify before Congress Friday on the prisoner abuse and its ramifications.

And new focus was put on the question of possible deeper problems within the military police unit running the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Rumsfeld will testify to the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites), whose chairman, John Warner, R-Va., said he had confidence in the secretary. But some Democrats seemed less sure.

Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., said that if adequate answers to questions about the abuse of prisoners were not forthcoming, then top officials, including Rumsfeld, should step down.

"If it goes all the way to Rumsfeld, then he should resign," Biden told the "Today" program on NBC. "Who is in charge?"

Don't look at me.

Don't look at GWB

Maybe that fella behind the tree?

5010. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:36:31 AM

Them Ay-rabs ain't stoopid

Arab world scorns Bush's 'apology'
Pressure mounts in US over Iraq torture scandal - Guardian UK

5011. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:45:31 AM

"Abuse"? How about torture
The Bush administration has created a gulag that stretches from Afghanistan to Iraq, from Guantanamo to secret CIA prisons around the world.

5012. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:47:55 AM

May 6, 2004 | It was "unacceptable" and "un-American," but was it torture? "My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture," Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said on Tuesday. "I don't know if it is correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that there's been a conviction for torture. And therefore I'm not going to address the torture word." He confessed that he had still not read the March 9 report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba on the "abuse" at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Some highlights: "pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape ... sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."

The same day that Rumsfeld added his contribution to the history of Orwellian statements by high officials, the Senate Armed Services Committee was briefed behind closed doors for the first time not only about Abu Ghraib but also about military and CIA prisons in Afghanistan. The senators learned of the deaths of 25 prisoners and two murders in Iraq, that private contractors were at the center of these lethal incidents, and that no one had been charged. They were not given any details about the private contractors -- not even how many there are. The senators might as well have been fitted with hoods.

5013. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:53:54 AM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An explosion rocked central Baghdad on Thursday near the compound of the U.S.-led administration, witnesses said.

Sirens at the compound, or Green Zone, sounded to indicate an attack and a large cloud of black smoke rose into the sky.

5014. Magoseph - 5/5/2004 12:18:35 PM

Do you think that Rumsfeld may be forced to resign?

5015. wonkers2 - 5/5/2004 2:30:11 PM

He certainly should resigned along with Wolfowitz, Feith, Libby, et al. There should be a general house cleaning.

5016. wonkers2 - 5/5/2004 4:28:07 PM

Both Tom Friedman and Maureen Dowd in op-eds in today's NYT called for Rumsfeld's resignation.

5017. wonkers2 - 5/5/2004 4:31:33 PM

Actually Friedman said

"This administration needs to undertake a total overhaul of its Iraq policy; otherwise it is courting a disaster for us all.

"That overhaul needs to begin with PRESIDENT BUSH FIRING SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DONALD RUMSFELD--today, not tomorrow or next month, today."

5018. Absensia - 5/5/2004 5:11:21 PM

Bush is expressing support for Rumsfeld this morning. This could be the kiss of death for Rummy.

5019. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:13:35 PM

Ain't gonna happen..Kerry just joined the chorus

5020. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:15:01 PM

On the other hand..wish I had another hand..

The collection of photographs begins like a travelogue from Iraq. Here are U.S. soldiers posing in front of a mosque. Here is a soldier riding a camel in the desert. And then: a soldier holding a leash tied around a man's neck in an Iraqi prison. He is naked, grimacing and lying on the floor.

5021. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:15:24 PM

Where are all the self righteous NeoCon Human Rights clucksters now?

5022. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:31:20 PM

GENEVA (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said Thursday it had repeatedly urged the United States to take "corrective action" at a Baghdad jail at the center of a scandal over abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

The Geneva-based humanitarian agency, mandated under international treaties to visit detainees, has had regular access to Abu Ghraib prison since U.S.-led forces began using it last year, according to chief spokeswoman Antonella Notari.

"The ICRC, aware of the situation, and based on its findings, has repeatedly asked the U.S. authorities to take corrective action," she told Reuters.

5023. thoughtful - 5/5/2004 5:35:14 PM

Reading the article in the nyer about life in iraq, in the city of sadr, there is a serious drainage problem and many streets are 1' deep in raw sewage. There are also 350,000 unemployed men in Sadr. Seems like an obvious match. If the streets were cleaned up and people employed and vesting their own time in making their lives better, they'd have a whole lot less time and reason to blame the americans for being so much worse off. Don't you think that with this add'l request for $25B, they can find some $$ for some shovels? This is so obvious, why is it not being done?

Oh yeah, I forgot. This is the same crowd that can't see the obvious connection between clean environment and energy security known as conservation.

Interesting observation a few weeks ago made by an oil industry analyst....the biggest oil find in america, about 40 mbd, was in detroit....called the CAFE standards.

5024. PelleNilsson - 5/5/2004 5:38:03 PM

US is not "courting disaster". It has already happened. This thing will not go away. It is what Microsoft calls an unrevoverable error that will have implications not only in Iraq but on the larger neo-con project of "making the world safe for democracy". Who will now want to join a "coalition of the willing" the next time the US hoists the crusader flag? Sadly to say I don't think the average voter will realize this. S/he is not particularly concerned about how the US is perceived abroad because s/he knows that whatever happens the US is still God's own country and if the foreigners don't understand that then pity on them.

5025. jexster - 5/5/2004 5:40:31 PM

Rush Limbaugh from yesterday ...

This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?

5026. PelleNilsson - 5/5/2004 5:48:31 PM

Sure. After a hard day at the office nothing relieves tension so much as showing a broomstick up somebody's anus.

5027. jexster - 5/5/2004 7:33:20 PM

I was in a frat...Beta Theta Pi...the real life Animal House boiz..

Surprise surprise eh??

VP, Rush Chair, PledgeMaster...

We pulled some sorry shit..but I guarantee you nothing remotely like Rush's Frat must have...

Josh Marshall asks the question 'What does rush do for a good time?"

Oxycontin Josh

5028. jexster - 5/5/2004 7:34:39 PM

But that IS the emerging line of defense from the Bush Wackos..

Sean Hannity
Rush Limbaugh
Cong Drier

"Havin fun..blowin steam...stop whine you self-loathing liberal wimps you are hurting the war effort"

5029. jexster - 5/5/2004 7:37:36 PM

That's the latest from BushWorld...

Back in the Real World..

Muqtada Negotiates with Head of Secret Police

az-Zaman reports that a new round of negotiations has begun with Muqtada al-Sadr, this time conducted directly by Maj. General Muhammad al-Shahwani, the new head of the Iraqi secret police (Mukhabarat). This news rather amazes me and seems a sign of desperation on both sides. Ali Allawi, the new head of the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, clearly wants to build a future political career by bringing order to the country. He appears to be willing even to talk to Muqtada al-Sadr if necessary, rather than dismissing the young radical as irrelevant or as a thug. On the other hand, it surprises me that Muqtada would speak to Shahwani, a Sunni from Mosul who had been a Baathist until 1984. Admittedly, since then Shahwani has been trying to overthrow Saddam and he lost three sons to Saddam's assassins.

The prison abuse scandal has deeply harmed the political standing of the Americans, who have been campaigning against Muqtada and his movement on the grounds that they are thuggish and abuse people and harm Iraqi human rights. Hamza Hendawi reports, ' ''For those who thought the United States respected human rights and championed freedom, the picture should be very clear now,'' Abbas al-Robai, a close al-Sadr aide, said about the Abu Ghraib scandal. Iraqis' aversion to the United States, he added, was somewhat reduced after Saddam's removal but ''now, it's stronger than any time before.'' '

Meanwhile, former Iranian president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani warned the Americans via al-Hayat not to invade Najaf. He said if the Americans would agree to leave Iraq, Iran would pledge to cooperate in ensuring stability as it had done, he said, in Afghanistan.

My Iraq has a secret police!

" Le plus ça change, le plus c'est la même chose

5030. jexster - 5/5/2004 7:46:47 PM

If any of you have read Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners", you will recall pictures of happy German soldiers, a travelogue not all unlike that linked in Message # 5020

5031. vonKreedon - 5/5/2004 7:50:02 PM

Jex - What's the source for that article? The Mukhabarat was the name of the Saddamite secret police, I'm not finding any references to it being an ongoing operation.

According to this Swiss Security Watch article, Al-Shahwani specifically says that the Mukhabarat was the one security organization that the US was correct in dismantling.

5032. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/5/2004 8:07:06 PM

Wretched New Picture Of America

5033. thoughtful - 5/5/2004 8:23:22 PM

As the gopers were so fond of saying,

Where's the outrage?!?

5034. thoughtful - 5/5/2004 8:32:23 PM

Cnn is reporting that bush finally apologized for the treatment of the iraqi prisoners.

So good to know this compassionate conservative takes his responsibilities so seriously and feels his regrets so deeply. Only takes torture and murder to get him to say he's sorry...if there are photos.

He should change his name to tammy though...he's standin' by his man, rummy.

5035. judithathome - 5/5/2004 8:33:08 PM

Charles Rangel just asked for articles of Impeachment on the senate floor. (according to newsflash posted on the Atlantic)

5036. PelleNilsson - 5/5/2004 8:45:55 PM

vonK -- Mukhabarat is a generic term. It doesn't refer specifically to the Iraqi secret police.

5037. judithathome - 5/5/2004 9:02:57 PM

Make that the House floor...sorry.

5038. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 9:25:20 PM

The photos, the reaction, the backtracking on apologies - they all point to one big thing. It's game over for the neocon dreams and aspirations (and promises) and it's going to be a very expensive and thankless task just to crawl back to a reasonable calm.

I think, yes, that most of us should feel betrayed and should learn a lesson. I supported the war, with its accompanying winks and nudges, even though the WMD excuse always looked like a farcical ruse (and posted as much in this forum at the time).

But what no one could have calculated, was the level of incompetence and carelessness that went into every aspect of the post-battle planning. There wasn't even a pretense made to actually care about WMD's (Iraqi sites containing radioactive materials are still unguarded). There wasn't even a pretense made to safeguard the cultural legacies and the security of the "innocent Iraqis" in whose name was fought. Troops were carefully provided for the benefit of Chalabi, but none to protect virtually everything valuable and valued in Iraq.

And then there are the gutwrenching limits of American strength and force that have been exposed to the world by (a) the neocon absolute stupidity in burning almost every possible international bridge and (b) by irresponsible underestimation of the forces required.

5039. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 9:25:27 PM

So, you have bored yahoo incompetents put in charge of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib, who reverted to trailer-park type by indulging in pornographic humiliation rituals. And you have straight-ahead regionally-ignorant political hacks who provide the public face of America in Iraq. And the pattern all along is - deny mistakes, deny wrongdoing, dismiss threats, act and react inflexibly in the most braindead ideologically blinded manner.

The worst thing about this is the criminal, absolutely criminal, weakening of America in the world. Decades of hard-won goodwill, trust, grudging respect - gone, in the toilet. It will take a generation, at least, for the US to climb back into a position resembling the one it has had pissed away by the Bushites.

5040. jayackroyd - 5/5/2004 9:26:11 PM

Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld famously talks about preparing for the "unknown unknowns." Yet the present crisis was hardly unforeseeable, and Rumsfeld did not ensure that the military was prepared to deal with it. He failed to put in place in Iraq a force big enough to handle the challenges at hand. That is a significant failure, and we do not yet know the price that will be paid for it.

The question is whether Rumsfeld and his generals have learned from past mistakes. Or rather, perhaps, the question is whether George W. Bush has learned from Rumsfeld's past mistakes. After all, at the end of the day, it is up to the president to ensure that the success he demands in Iraq will in fact be accomplished. If his current secretary of defense cannot make the adjustments that are necessary, the president should find one who will.

--Robert Kagan and William Kristol

In the weekly standard on line.

5041. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 9:36:07 PM

Forget about remaking the Middle East, or being strong enough to take on another international task on the level of Afghanistan and Iraq. Those pipe dreams are over.

Now, watch Iran and South Korea and a whole range of other nations just go ahead and develop nukes and brandish them openly - the US isn't going to do anything, and it cannot do anything.

And watch the American people turn - very strongly - away from any hint of overseas misadventure for another couple of decades. The will is gone, the capability is gone, and - dammit - the money is gone. Even the UK isn't going to be signing on, this country is in political isolation.

--

I posted - with interest and some reservations - an article by the great Amitav Ghosh when this Iraq campaign was still in preparation. It gently, poetically, hailed the plans for Iraq as the first steps in the demise of the Anglo-American Empire.

At the time, the commentary sounded premature. Why? Because we were being reminded (by Fareed Zakaria and others) of the pre-eminence of the US military, the historical anomaly of its total dominance compared to the next 15-20 strongest of the world's nations combined.

Those stats are still true, but now we know the very painful imits of even super-dominant arms capabilities. I mean, if the US can't manage a turnaround in a country as thoroughly a basket case as Saddam's Iraq - where the majority of the country hated the leader, and the military was already totally degraded, what chance does it have or "re-making" a real and strong country like - say - Iran.

So, it's game over for the neocons, and I'm afraid that Ghosh's thesis looks quite solid after the last few months of un-nuanced total bungling. Strap on your seatbelts, Americans, you're on a steady ride down.

5042. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 9:43:49 PM

Here's that Ghosh piece again - The chances of success are close to nil.

I have to start with my own mea culpas, now that even Dubya has started with his. I was wrong, Motards, I vastly overestimated America's ability as an agent for positive change even while in the hands of clearly cynical manipulators. I also vastly understimated the damage that could be done to the US, its strength and its international standing, by just one small administration cabal of blinded ideologues.

So, Ghosh was much more right than I and my criticisms of this piece sound hollow a year after.

The military power of the United States is so overwhelming that it has caused America’s leaders to forget that the imperial project rests on two pillars. Weaponry is only the first and most obvious of these; the other is persuasion. When the empire was in British hands, its rulers paid almost as much attention to this second pillar as to the first. Its armies were often accompanied by an enormously energetic apparatus of persuasion, which included educational institutions, workshops, media outlets, printing houses, and so on. British teachers, doctors, civil servants, and other functionaries spent long periods living in Indian towns and villages, while soldiers were generally contained within barracks.

Many hawks in the United States now openly admit to a veneration of past empires, yet they seem to have absorbed the military lessons of imperialism to the exclusion of all else. I suspect this is the reason that many in the British political establishment were so dismayed by the buildup to the Iraq war. They know all too well that an aura of legitimacy and consent is essential in matters of empire.

5043. jexster - 5/5/2004 9:49:17 PM

Good one Marji....

5044. jexster - 5/5/2004 10:04:51 PM

Strap on your seatbelts, Americans, you're on a steady ride down.

The Eagle Has Crash Landed

and

The Decline of American Power: The U.S. in a Chaotic World
by Immanuel Wallerstein

Jul 01 '02

Pax Americana is over. Challenges from Vietnam and the Balkans to the Middle East and September 11 have revealed the limits of American supremacy. Will the United States learn to fade quietly, or will U.S. conservatives resist and thereby transform a gradual decline into a rapid and dangerous fall?

The United States in decline? Few people today would believe this assertion. The only ones who do are the U.S. hawks, who argue vociferously for policies to reverse the decline. This belief that the end of U.S. hegemony has already begun does not follow from the vulnerability that became apparent to all on September 11, 2001. In fact, the United States has been fading as a global power since the 1970s, and the U.S. response to the terrorist attacks has merely accelerated this decline. To understand why the so-called Pax Americana is on the wane requires examining the geopolitics of the 20th century, particularly of the century's final three decades. This exercise uncovers a simple and inescapable conclusion: The economic, political, and military factors that contributed to U.S. hegemony are the same factors that will inexorably produce the coming U.S. decline.

5045. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/5/2004 10:11:01 PM

5046. thoughtful - 5/5/2004 10:17:43 PM

I dunno, marj, Ghosh's analysis sounds far too grand for this yahoo.

I think it's just what happens when a rich spoiled brat who's always gotten his own way, who has always been bailed out of every disaster he's gotten himself into, who's spent a lifetime of indulging every whim (from alcohol to coke, from getting arrested to going awol, from playing around in his father's white house to running oil companies into the ground to buying a ball club) gets into a position where he's got his hand on the country's steering wheel. Recklessly demanding his own way, listening to no one, even his own parents, he spends as much money as he wants, picks a fight with the little kid across the pond, elbows out, struts around spitting in the face of the international community, and daring them to just try and stop him. He takes this job no more seriously than any other, spending lots of time on vacation, working out and bragging how he's improved his running time, not even reading newspapers, and demanding meetings start early and end early so he can get them over with. Worst of all, he does this with the hubris of believing god talks to him and every action he's taken is by divine right and therefore no one has the right to question him.

Actually, come to think of it, he sounds quite royal. Why, he actually sounds a lot like....

could it be?....

King George III!!!

5047. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 10:26:08 PM

Well, I have said previously that Dubya would be a fine country club president, or perhaps king of a small meaningless European enclave.

I doubt very much that he'd have flipped into what he's become were it not for 9/11.

He'd have engineered a hasty retreat for the US from every international treaty available, yes. He'd have taken even more vacations, he'd have stopped at nothing to feed his cronies in industry, yes. And he'd have invoked God and War just as much, but it would have been in the context of a domestic cultural battlefront.

But he wouldn't have been able to take his faith-based hokeyness overseas, or at anything like as big a target as Iraq, if he didn't have a cowed, angry and nervous US populace post 9/11 and a core of opportunistic hard-core ideologues in place to lead him into the ME.

The ideologues took 9/11 and fed Bush's already-cherished notions of himself as a straight-talkin' cowboy "from Crawford", and went all High Noon on the global stage. They'd never ever have gotten away with it without the attacks on the WTC and DC.

5048. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 10:28:31 PM

5049. Marc-Albert - 5/5/2004 10:37:09 PM

The cartoons of The WizardofWhimzy only serve to trivialize something that shouldn't be.

Now, thanks to people like TheWizard, what happened will fast become a source of divertissement and good party jokes.

5050. wonkers2 - 5/5/2004 10:40:49 PM

A good picture is worth a thousand words! And the Wiz's pictures are very good.

5051. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 10:43:20 PM

By the way, another of Ghosh's points is being underlined today wherever you seek comment/commentary from the hard-core Fox-led apologists for every aspect of Bush's War-

A substantial proportion of America’s population remains unconvinced of the need to undertake a new version of a “civilizing mission.”

These are the apologists - we have seen them here before they mostly fled - whose shrill yammering for the war sterted off with the administration's line - WMD!! WMD!! And then sidetracked to DEMOCRACY!!! DEMOCRACY!!! And then morphed to the absolute lowest argument available MASS GRAVES!! MASS GRAVES!! The argument thus went from - it's about saving us from their threat to it's about saving the region from itself to "it's all about the poor Iraqis, think of the children". The crusade justification thus stabilized for a while on the seemingly agreeable reasoning that the Iraqis deserve righteousness and fair treatment.

However, give it exactly two-three months of demonstrated deep Iraqi misgivings about these claims - and the yammering has started in stark reverse. It's "those ungrateful fuckin' Iraqis, they're not decent enough to acknowledge the great favours done to them, they don't deserve our help and dollars. Wax Falujah. Fuck those prisoners if they can't take a frat-type joke. No apologies needed for shooting missiles on your mosque, you dishonorable towelhead with your evil religion."

So, now, it's no longer about the poor innocent Iraqis any more. They're ungrateful unprincipled motherfuckers who can't take a joke.

My, what a surprising development.

5052. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 10:45:25 PM

What's being trivialized, Marc-Albert?

Neither of those cartoons are directly referential to the photos from Abu Ghraib, though - now that you mention it - there are some fitting parallels.

5053. wonkers2 - 5/5/2004 10:45:40 PM

These are the folks whose understanidng of democracy is at a dull normal third grade level.

5054. alistairConnor - 5/5/2004 10:52:52 PM

Robert Kagan and William Kristol

I did a double take when I saw the signatures.

If they're not supporting Rumplestiltskin, who's he got left?

Ace?

5055. marjoribanks - 5/5/2004 10:55:18 PM

A few weeks ago, some of the looted material from nuclear facilities that the US left unguarded in Iraq made its way in a shipment of scrap to the EU. Again, this is material that was secure and accounted for in Iraq before the invasion - then left for pickings by the US as it ignored its own hype about WMD - then packed up by looters and sent on to Europe.

This material is the sort of thing that could be used in a dirty bomb, the kind of materials that the war was suposedly about.

Unbelievably, without the least bit of shame, the baboons have trumpeted this happenstance as (a) evidence that Iraq had WMD and (b) complete justification for the war and all the horrific bungling that has followed. No doubt, today, in some dank hole somewhere, one of the baboons is using this "evidence' to justify the buggery of some hapless Iraqi with a nightstick.

Brewer, by the way, used the first line of reasoning in this site.

What does one say to this dazzling display of "logic"?

5056. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/5/2004 11:28:50 PM

5049. Marc-Albert - 5/6/2004 4:37:09 PM

The cartoons of The WizardofWhimzy only serve to trivialize something that shouldn't be.

Now, thanks to people like TheWizard, what happened will fast become a source of divertissement and good party jokes.

Trivialize? (Are you British, Marc?) First, Steve Bell nails how with words, Bush is (grudgingly) forced to apologize while his previous actions (and racist Freudian slips) contradict and reveal the imbecile for what he is.

Wrt my efforts, venting my outrage may seem trivial to you, however, ridiculing the feckless fool who has, single-handedly, destroyed the potential for achieving a better world is keeping me sane . . . in the madhouse that has become this country of complacent consumers of genuine trivial entertainment.

[Thanks Wonk & Marj . . . and great post by the way!]

5057. judithathome - 5/5/2004 11:49:47 PM

CNN just reported from the chairman of the Intelligence Committee that the committee has been made aware of a tape from Bin Laden, which appears to be real, that a reward is offered for anyone killing US military or UN officials fighting in Iraq.

5058. jexster - 5/6/2004 2:20:49 AM

Israeli Connection with Abu Ghuraib Torture?

Many readers have written to suggest that there is an Israeli connection of some sort to the Abu Ghuraib prison scandal, because the techniques used seem so similar to what Palestinians report. One noted that Joe Ryan, the Abu Ghuraib blogger, had some training with Israeli specialists on such matters.

Khalid Amayrah summarizes the case for.

Talab al-Sana'i, an Arab member of the Israeli Knesset, is one of Amayrah's key sources, and it seems likely to me that he knows whereof he speaks:

' But Israeli-Arab Knesset member Talab al-Sanai says Israel is indirectly but heavily involved in "the systematic mistreatment of Iraqi people at the hands of the American occupation troops". "It is not secret at all, there are many Israeli experts on torture in Iraq who are transferring to the Americans their accumulative experience of thirty seven years of torturing and mistreating Palestinians," al-Sanai told Aljazeera.net. He said that American officers joined Israeli army units in Jenin several months ago for the purpose of learning Israeli methods and techniques of repressing civilians, which the Americans, he said, later applied in Iraq. '

On the other hand, one Muslim-American reader wrote in to suggest that for decades Israel helped spoil America's image in the Middle East by its determined colonization of Palestinian land since 1967 and by the brutality with which it often treated Palestinians under its Occupation. But now, in view of the events of the past year and especially the Abu Ghuraib photos. it may well be Israel's association with the United States that hurts Israel's image in the region.

posted by Juan Cole at 5/6/2004 08:10:49 PM

5059. jexster - 5/6/2004 2:33:12 AM

Inspires me to song...

Que veut cette horde d'esclaves
De traîtres, de rois conjurés?
Pour qui ces ignobles entraves
Ces fers dès longtemps préparés?
Français, pour nous, ah! quel outrage
Quels transports il doit exciter?
C'est nous qu'on ose méditer
De rendre à l'antique esclavage!

Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides
L'opprobre de tous les partis
Tremblez! vos projets parricides
Vont enfin recevoir leurs prix!
Tout est soldat pour vous combattre
S'ils tombent, nos jeunes héros
La France en produit de nouveaux,
Contre vous tout prêts à se battre.

Nous entrerons dans la carrière
Quand nos aînés n'y seront plus
Nous y trouverons leur poussière
Et la trace de leurs vertus
Bien moins jaloux de leur survivre
Que de partager leur cercueil
Nous aurons le sublime orgueil
De les venger ou de les suivre!

Amour sacré de la Patrie
Conduis, soutiens nos bras vengeurs
Liberté, Liberté chérie
Combats avec tes défenseurs!
Sous nos drapeaux, que la victoire
Accoure à tes mâles accents
Que tes ennemis expirants
Voient ton triomphe et notre gloire!

5060. jexster - 5/6/2004 2:35:00 AM

Je me réfère à diverstissements

5061. jexster - 5/6/2004 2:37:47 AM

Narc Albert: The lady doth protest too much methinks

5062. jexster - 5/6/2004 2:43:03 AM

Accoure à tes mâles accents
Que tes ennemis expirants
Voient ton triomphe et notre gloire!

Aux armes citoyens
Formez vos bataillons
Marchons, marchons
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons

5063. jexster - 5/6/2004 2:55:58 AM

Compassionate Conservative Culture War President With Results

5064. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:56:50 AM

Looks like the 'stain on our nation" is bigger than our National Stain admits...

ANTIOCH, California (Reuters) - Three U.S. military policemen who served at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison said on Thursday they had witnessed unreported cases of prisoner abuse and that the practice against Iraqis was commonplace.

"It is a common thing to abuse prisoners," said Sgt. Mike Sindar, 25, a National Guardsman with the 870th Military Police Company based in the San Francisco Bay area. "I saw beatings all the time.

5065. jexster - 5/6/2004 4:45:34 PM

GENEVA (Reuters) - The Red Cross discovered "serious violations" of the rights of Iraqi prisoners, with abuse so widespread it may be considered to have been tolerated by the U.S.-led coalition, the Wall Street Journal said on Friday.

In a confidential 24-page document, which was seen by the financial newspaper, the International Committee of the Red Cross said treatment in some cases was "tantamount to torture," particularly when interrogators were seeking information or confessions.

An official at the Geneva-based ICRC said the document, covering the period March-November 2003, was genuine, adding that the leak was a "major breakdown in confidentiality."

In a rare break with its normal practice, the ICRC said that it would release the full text at a 1400 GMT news conference.

5066. jayackroyd - 5/6/2004 4:56:48 PM

I find it very surprising that very little attention has been paid to this piece in the NYTimes. It's an interview with one of the victims. He's the guy whose genitals a woman MP was pointing at, while displaying a "thumbs up" gesture.

He wasn't being "softened up" for intelligence interrogation. He was being punished for a jailyard brawl:

But Mr. Abd's account differed in one crucial way from the substance of a report, written by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba and first reported last week by The New Yorker magazine and the CBS News program "60 Minutes II." While the report says the military police in the prison often mistreated prisoners to help military intelligence officers gain information during interrogations, Mr. Abd said his case appeared to be punishment for bad behavior, in this case a jail-yard fight.

IMO, this is evidence that this kind of treatment was routine.

5067. jayackroyd - 5/6/2004 4:58:16 PM

This picture

is the one the Times is referring to.

5068. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:08:59 PM

Was down at the corner grocery picking up cigarettes :(. (yes looking still for that 7th quit..7 times' a charm they say)

Old Uncle Frank hadn't seen the leash photo in yesterday's Post so his nephew showed him the reprint on the cover of the NyT...

A bunch of PALS were loading in produced from the truck..

I wish I understood Arabic...you can imagine..pointing at the photos, voices getting more and more excited and angry..

5069. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:09:10 PM

Cole on Wolf Blitzer's 5 PM Newshour, CNN

If current plans hold, I'll be a guest on Wolf Blitzer's show sometime 5-6 pm EST on CNN. Readers have asked for a heads up about these things.
posted by Juan Cole at 5/7/2004 08:46:59 AM

5070. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:16:47 PM

British soldier gives new details of abuse of jailed Iraqis
May 7: Evidence Prisoners were beaten till faces 'like haggises'.

5071. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:18:16 PM

Folks these are prisoners of an aggressive war based on lies that GWB launched in violation of international law.

5072. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:18:49 PM

"I was only following orders from God"

Don't cut it

5073. jexster - 5/6/2004 5:24:16 PM

Stupidity Causes Death
- By David H. Hackworth, DefenseWatch Senior Military Columnist

Deploying without sufficient armor and then having to fly 70-ton Abrams tanks to Iraq is as flaky as almost everything else about a war where politicians were proclaiming just a year ago that once we drained the swamps, the rest would be rice and flowers

5074. Magoseph - 5/6/2004 5:25:07 PM

Ill say one thing about the fellow, though, he is extremely - impressively - loyal to those who demonstrate loyalty to him. In this, there is something a bit more admirable (in character terms) than in the standard politician.

Marj, you've been very kind to Mr. Bush. If a person has no confidence in his ability to evaluate others on their merits, he tends to stick with the people he knows (in this case the people he inherited from his father), for fear of a tragic mistake in judgment. It is my opinion that President Bush does not have the intellectual capacity to evaluate and choose at the level his position requires. That is the real reason he sticks with what he has.

The incompetence shown by Rumsfeld has been so gross and so consistent in his capacity as the leader of the Iraq war that there existed long ago no rational justification for retaining him in the position he now holds.

5075. Magoseph - 5/6/2004 5:50:59 PM

Prison Mutiny
What the torturers of Abu Ghraib have wrought.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 9:01 AM PT

Part of the article: The images from Abu Ghraib prison do not test one's convictions about the wrongness of torture. They test one's opinions about the wrongness of capital punishment. Just consider for a moment what this bunch of giggling sadists has done, with its happy snaps and recreational cruelties:

* It has defiled one of the memorials of regime change. I was a visitor to Abu Ghraib last summer, and the stench of misery and evil was still palpable in those pits and cellars. It is as if British or American soldiers had not only executed German prisoners of war, but had force-marched them to Dachau in order to commit the atrocity.
* It has been like a shot in the back to the many soldiers (active front-line duty, not safe-job prison guards) who were willing to take casualties rather than inflict them and who fought selectively and carefully. What are the chances of the next such soldier who is captured by some gang of Saddamists or Wahabbists or Khomeinists?
* It seems, at least on its face, to have profaned the idea of women in the military. One does not have to concede anything to Islamist sexism in order to know what the impact of obscene female torturers will have in the wider society.

This is only the rehearsal for one's revulsion. One of two things must necessarily be true. Either these goons were acting on someone's authority, in which case there is a layer of mid- to high-level people who think that they are not bound by the laws and codes and standing orders. Or they were acting on their own authority, in which case they are the equivalent of mutineers, deserters, or traitors in the field. This is why one asks wistfully if there is no provision in the procedures of military justice for them to be taken out and shot.

5076. judithathome - 5/6/2004 5:51:31 PM

Magos, I think you are right...any man who doesn't even read the papers hasn't the "stuff" to make astute evaluations. I suppose he could be reading his heart in the matter but I doubt his heart is that clever, either.

5077. judithathome - 5/6/2004 5:53:51 PM

Armed Services committee hearings being broadcast right now on CNN, ABC, others.

5078. OhioSTOPAS - 5/6/2004 5:56:31 PM

Is this mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners the last straw? I'm wondering if our objective of successfully setting up a stable and democratic Iraq can still be achieved in light of the escalation of hate and mistrust that the Abu Ghraib misconduct is fueling.

I don't want us to leave behind a broken Iraq, mired in civil war. But I also don't want to leave our soldiers in that shooting gallery if things aren't going to turn out any differently. Although I don't know what the best course of action is, the risk/reward/likeliness-of-success equation has to be recalculated in light of Abu Ghraib.

5079. judithathome - 5/6/2004 6:03:02 PM

Rumsfeld certainly sounds contrite. Full responsibility; on his watch, apologies.

5080. PelleNilsson - 5/6/2004 6:04:46 PM

These events put the US boycott of the International Court of Justice in a new light. I haven't seen the connection made yet, but you can be sure it will be.

5081. judithathome - 5/6/2004 6:08:28 PM

Protesters inside the committee meeting!! Hecklers!

5082. OhioSTOPAS - 5/6/2004 6:21:27 PM

Tough-Guy Chickenhawks in Action

Josh Marshall (www.talkingpointsmemo.com) quoting the Nelson Report:

"We can contribute a second hand anecdote to newspaper stories on rising concern, last year, from Secretary of State Powell and Deputy Secretary Armitage about Administration attitudes and the risks they might entail: according to eye witnesses to debate at the highest levels of the Administration...the highest levels...whenever Powell or Armitage sought to question prisoner treatment issues, they were forced to endure what our source characterizes as "around the table, coarse, vulgar, frat-boy bully remarks about what these tough guys would do if THEY ever got their hands on prisoners....

"-- let's be clear: our source is not alleging "orders" from the White House. Our source is pointing out that, as we said in the Summary, a fish rots from its head. The atmosphere created by Rumsfeld's controversial decisions was apparently aided and abetted by his colleagues in their callous disregard for the implications of the then-developing situation, and by their ridicule of the only combat veterans at the top of this Administration."

Unbelievable, but all too believable.

5083. jexster - 5/6/2004 6:21:41 PM

No justice no peace...when are they gonna learn ...do it in waves not all at once.

USA: Pattern of brutality and cruelty -- war crimes at Abu Ghraib

5084. wonkers2 - 5/6/2004 6:25:54 PM

I wonder where the interrogators get the black hoods, dog leashes, etc. Are they standard Army or CIA issue or do they buy them with petty cash at the nearest S & M store or catalog?

5085. jexster - 5/6/2004 6:30:33 PM

Even as Dumbsfeld and his gaggle say its "limited thing"....under oath no less..

Report by the ICRC on the coalition forces’ treatment of persons held in Iraq

Geneva (ICRC) – The Wall Street Journal of 7 May has published extensive excerpts from a confidential document entitled "Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) on the Treatment by the Coalition Forces of Prisoners of War and Other Protected Persons by the Geneva Conventions in Iraq During Arrest, Internment and Interrogation" of January 2004.

5086. judithathome - 5/6/2004 6:34:22 PM

I wonder where the interrogators get the black hoods, dog leashes, etc. Are they standard Army or CIA issue or do they buy them with petty cash at the nearest S & M store or catalog?

The "contractors" brought them along in their little mercenary kit bags.

5087. Absensia - 5/6/2004 6:52:53 PM

I'm watching the Senate hearings, and MbVain just asked umsfeld some questions. Rumsfeld tried to hand off the questions to the General. McXain refused to allow him to do so, saying "There are basic questions, don't you know the answers?" Rumsfeld got a bit testy and bumble through a response."

Darn it. I seemed to have missed his excuse about not showing the president the pictures because they were locked in a vault in Iraq. Apparently he could not get any copies, although it seems the pics were copies available in Iraq and made it to the media.

5088. thoughtful - 5/6/2004 7:00:37 PM

Not by way of justification, but by way of explanation, my husband (an army vet) suggests this kind of operation has "spooks" written all over it, meaning, in his opinion, this is being run by the military intelligence folks (CIA?)who deploy these techniques as ways of breaking someone down.

Another fellow I know, ex army ranger, who had been through torture training himself...meaning he was tortured by army personnel as training to withstand it should he fall into enemy hands...said that the most effective torture that most often led to "breaking" someone was sexual humiliation...having the person stripped naked and having a woman laugh at his manhood. So to see this kind of behavior, disgusting as it is, should not be surprising. Disappointing, disheartening, and lots of other dis's yes. But not uncommon and not untrained for.

However, I think the more important issue is WHY was it done. If these people are prisoners of war, well, the WAR IS OVER. Hussein's been captured, the army's disbanded and even the military storehouses which were never properly protected have all been raided. The weapons are gone. The military intelligence...if these guys ever had any...is rendered moot. So what kind of information do they hope to gain by this activity?

5089. thoughtful - 5/6/2004 7:07:21 PM

Rather, I recall an article from some time back exploring human psychology, run at Harvard. They had student volunteers and split the group randomly in 2...half were to be prisoners and half were to be guards. In a surprisingly short amount of time, the guards became increasingly heady with their power, belittling of the "prisoners", humiliating them and doing things like forcing them to defecate in a bucket and cleaning it out with their hands and other disgusting things. Mind you these were not enemies, or people different in any way from themselves...these were classmates.

An ugly side of human nature, but there it is. That's why adequate training is essential for people put in positions like prison guards, and why rotation of those guards is also essential to prevent any personal animosities from developing, and why proper authority and control is essential to prevent the worst atrocities from developing.

5090. thoughtful - 5/6/2004 7:09:14 PM

...Especially when some of these atrocities are actually sanctioned by those in charge, like spooks.

5091. jexster - 5/6/2004 7:14:55 PM

Someone oughta lock Likud Lieberman up pending deportation to Likud Hdq in Jerusalem

5092. jexster - 5/6/2004 7:16:16 PM

Thoughtful...back a few pages a link, a leak from the CIA that they are investigating the role of their agents....

Pre-emptive leak???

5093. jexster - 5/6/2004 7:17:11 PM

Likud Lieberman wasn't aware that the Geneva Convention applies..

Scumbag

5094. thoughtful - 5/6/2004 7:17:32 PM

Must be.

5095. jexster - 5/6/2004 7:30:36 PM

From Stars & Stripes Letters to the Editor

"Leadership gone bad

I have to say this stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq is an example of leadership gone really bad. I can’t believe for one second that those troops didn’t know what they were doing was wrong. Nor can I believe the command was not aware that it was occurring. It sure doesn’t help our cause here in Iraq or the perspective of our being humane and following the codes of conduct. It really angers me.

Of course this type of behavior has happened in past wars when prisoners were interrogated. But I believed we were above this level of abuse and maltreatment by now. Apparently this is not the case.

I remember when I was attached to a military police company while in the reserves years ago. We were given instructions as to the laws of prisoner treatment and the Geneva Conventions, as we continually do today. The 5 S’s — secure, silence, segregate, safeguard, speed — are taught to all MPs, and the Geneva Conventions laws of prisoner treatment are taught to all soldiers, military interrogators and civilians alike.

It really turns my stomach to think that I’m in the same Army as these people, let alone the same military occupational specialty, and at a level of leadership that allowed it to continue. To use ignorance as an excuse is totally lame. It’s shameful, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Sgt. Kevin McCue
Military policeman
Baghdad"

5096. jexster - 5/6/2004 8:14:56 PM

The Mideastization of the US, or:
Rumsfeld Must Resign

5097. jexster - 5/6/2004 9:11:36 PM

Looking for WMD

5098. jexster - 5/6/2004 9:15:35 PM

Commentary No. 86, Apr. 1, 2002

"Iraq: How Great Powers Bring Themselves Down"

George W. Bush is a geopolitical incompetent. He has allowed a clique of hawks to induce him to take a position, an invasion of Iraq, from which he cannot extract himself and which will have nothing but negative consequences, for everyone but first of all for the United States. He will find himself badly hurt politically, perhaps fatally. He will diminish rather rapidly the already declining power of the United States in the world. He will contribute dramatically to the destruction of the state of Israel by furthering the suicidal madness of the Israeli hawks. Of course, there will be many persons in the world who will be happy to see such negative consequences. The trouble is that, in the process, Bush will conduct warfare that will destroy many lives immediately, lead to a degree of turmoil in the Arab-Islamic world of a kind and at a level hitherto unimagined....

So, he has no choice. He will invade Iraq. And we shall all live with the consequences.

5099. wonkers2 - 5/6/2004 9:31:59 PM

Pelty, are you saying that acceptance of the literal historical accuracy of the Bible is a requirement of Christianity? Seems like that's what your're saying.

5100. wonkers2 - 5/6/2004 9:48:06 PM

What a bunch of windbags on both sides of the table in the Senate and House hearings today, for the most part.

5101. jayackroyd - 5/6/2004 9:50:28 PM

Lindsay Graham and McCain both did good jobs, I thought. And the evident fury in Mark Dayton's presentation was also effective.

5102. wonkers2 - 5/6/2004 9:52:16 PM

My experience indicates that thoughtful's observation about the Harvard psychology study on guards and prisoners is accurate. Incidents between police and arrestees similar to those in Abu Gharib are all too common. Frantenity initiation hazing is similar also but usually less extreme.

5103. jexster - 5/6/2004 10:53:18 PM

It was Stanford...

But anyway, its all a bunch hooey...and no more so than the "oh wow its the digital age and we were blindsided in cybserspace" defense which it now seems these desperadoes, from their increasing repetition of it, believe the only lame excuse that is working for them...

5104. jexster - 5/6/2004 10:55:38 PM

Stanford Prison Experiment

5105. jexster - 5/6/2004 11:19:14 PM

Bush Says Freedom Is in 'Good Hands' (Reuters, May 7; 2:52 PM)

5106. jexster - 5/7/2004 2:50:05 AM

My comments above re: Likud Lieberman's disgraceful performance this morning are echoed in Marshall's latest.

Unfortunately though the transcript captures the rank hypocrisy and double dealing of Mr. Morality's remarks, it doesn't do justice to the whine with which they were delivered.

Disgusting.

5107. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:19:29 AM

Sabrina Harman, SheWolf of the Bush SS: "My Job Was to Make Their Lives Hell"

5108. wonkers2 - 5/7/2004 1:25:50 PM

I would like to have had the hood account for the CIA/MI in Iraq! Wonder where they get those things and other tools of the trade?

5109. wonkers2 - 5/7/2004 1:36:56 PM

Used ones from Montenegro, perhaps?

5110. thoughtful - 5/7/2004 2:59:20 PM

No, no. I got it. I was talking yesterday to another ex-army guy who said that there's no way that kind of stuff goes on without people higher up the chain knowing about it. It's clearly being done with blessings of higher ups at some level.

But about it being spooks, he said he didn't think so because spooks do that stuff all the time, very professionally so you NEVER hear about it. No way would spooks allow pictures and video of such stuff. If there's one thing these cia types know how to do is how to keep things quiet, below the radar. So he thinks this was being done by amateurs...reservists and such...with the blessing of some higher ups.

Then it occurred to me! I figured it out!

This is a spook operation alright, of the first class! This is the CIA's revenge on bush. First the bushies tried to get tenet to take the blame for the yellowcake affair which ticked him off. But then, then they went after one of his own...they outed plame. This could not go unanswered. And how better to answer it then pulling their usual stuff, but with PICTURES and VIDEOS to embarrass the administration during the election cycle and shake the administration to its very core including the potential ousting of rumsfeld. Even better still they hide them until AFTER the administration has already seen the reports and not responded, which only makes them look worse. And remember how bush kept saying he didn't know there were PICTURES!

Oh these guys are so clever. And bush is being taught a lesson most presidents get from day one....you don't mess with the CIA.

5111. judithathome - 5/7/2004 3:15:39 PM

That CACI place where all the "contractors" come from is based in Arlington, VA. Isn't that where the ....CIA!...is based, too?

5112. Magoseph - 5/7/2004 3:24:59 PM

toughtful, if this is a spook operation to get at Bush, I would like to know in what way it affects his reelection directly and negatively?

I ask this question because I believe it is transparent to everyone that the only matter that Bush is really concerned about is his reelection. As a result, unless this spook operation can be directly related to his reelection, it appears to me to be without merit.

5113. Magoseph - 5/7/2004 3:51:50 PM

My thinking on this spook matter goes as follows: What organization stands to benefit the most from what has happened in the prison? Of course, it is al Quaeda in terms of gaining new recruits and money. Who had access to the prison? Of course, al Quaeda through the Arab-speaking translators. Everything that has been done could have been done with money and access.

5114. judithathome - 5/7/2004 4:07:17 PM

Al Qaeda wasn't in charge of the contractors who are the likely ones who brought the skills and equipment and expertise, though.

5115. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:42:03 PM

FALLOUJA, Iraq (news - web sites) — As Yassir Harhoush sees it, the work he'll be doing for the new U.S.-sanctioned Fallouja Brigade isn't all that different from what he was doing last week — only then, he says, he was part of the insurgency.
• Latimes.com home page

"I was fighting the Americans," Harhoush, a 28-year-old former soldier in Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s Republican Guard, said Friday afternoon. "I have not stopped. This is just a temporary truce. If the Americans attack, we will defend ourselves again."

Although it was announced only last week, the brigade already has more than 1,000 members, and men in Fallouja are flocking to sign up. Many, it seems, have merely put down their rocket-propelled grenades and picked up the spanking new black Kalashnikovs distributed by the Americans.

5116. Magoseph - 5/7/2004 4:43:23 PM

Juds, my point is this: There were Arabs within the prison, functioning as translators and if I understand it correctly, as guards. It would have been easy to establish a cell. They have all the money in the world for bribery purposes. They were able to get it done in one prison. They may have tried to penetrate six of them and failed.

The facts are the pictures they developed were geared to enrage the world of Islam. If I am correct, they have accomplished the greatest coup in the history of Islam. The way they have chosen to picture the infidel has maximized the effectiveness. To me, it has the touch of knowledgeable Arabic people.

5117. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:45:12 PM

the American pullout is seen as a miracle and already is being recast as a sort of Muslim desert myth.

5118. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:46:06 PM

Another miracle they reported was the appearance of spiders that had come out of the desert and killed the Americans by biting them.

These were no ordinary spiders, said one of the other men, but killer arachnids that could run 15 miles an hour and whose bite felled some of the Marines.

The spider's power in Islamic legend dates back to the Koran when, in the early days of Islam, the prophet Muhammad fled angry infidels and took shelter in a cave. A spider came and wove a thick web over the cave's mouth so that when the infidels came looking for him, they did not think anyone was inside, because he would have had to tear the web to enter

5119. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:51:36 PM

Isn't that COOL! GWB may have some cosmic connections after all...

II Corinthians 2:11 "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

5120. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:56:25 PM

toughtful, if this is a spook operation to get at Bush, I would like to know in what way it affects his reelection directly and negatively?

Well it already has...Its been going on for a while and these are the results thus far:

(Gallup)

(Zogby)

5121. jexster - 5/7/2004 4:57:14 PM

And it will come to a head this summer with the 9/11 commission report and whatever action the Grand Jury takes against Rove/libby ...

5122. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:03:56 PM

not just considered it, but know it

At 12:06 PM 2/6/2004, you wrote:

Mr. Marshall,

Have you ever considered that the CIA is involved in an inside/outside two front war on the White House???

I think that if you will review the chronology you will see a pattern....
Inside game - the Tenant Testimony, the Niger Yellowcake story, the Kay bombshell - in each case the CIA issued statements that appear loyal but in each case, the most credible, the most concrete, the headlined element damns Bush and the rest invites futher inquiry...

Then there's the outside game...you can get a good feel for that from Sid Blumenthal's piece in Salon

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/02/05/wmd/print.html

My take:

Here they go again...

5123. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:06:53 PM

The Washington Post

March 24, 2004 Wednesday
Final Edition

SECTION: Editorial; A21

LENGTH: 816 words

HEADLINE: The Professionals' Revolt

BYLINE: Harold Meyerson

BODY:

Just a few minutes after 8 a.m. on Dec. 7, 1941, with the bombs still falling on Pearl Harbor, Pacific Fleet intelligence officer Lt. Cmdr. Edwin Layton, who'd been predicting a Japanese attack for that very weekend, was scurrying through fleet headquarters when two of his superiors stopped him. "Here is the young man we should have listened to," said Capt. Willard Kitts, the fleet gunnery officer. "If it's any satisfaction to you," added Capt. Charles "Soc" McMorris, the fleet war plans officer, "you were right and we were wrong."

You can read any number of accounts of our latter Day of Infamy, Sept. 11, 2001, without coming across any equivalent verbal acknowledgments addressed to Richard Clarke, the chief of counterterrorism in the Clinton and second Bush administrations, who'd been predicting a major al Qaeda attack on the United States to the point that some colleagues thought him obsessed. But, then, an assault from al Qaeda did not fit into the Bush administration's view of the world. Just one day later, the president was directing Clarke's attention to Iraq, and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz was all but insisting that the proper response to al Qaeda's murder of thousands of Americans was to bulldoze Baghdad. Acknowledging that Clarke had been right might mean that there was more to heaven and earth than the neocons had dreamt of in their philosophies.

5124. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:16:59 PM

The abuses by U.S. forces recalled the brutality of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime, said Kuwaiti Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammad al-Salem al-Sabah.

"For us in Kuwait these (abuses) mean a lot of things, and recall the brutal acts by Saddam Hussein's regime in the same prison, Abu Ghraib, which held many Kuwaiti detainees," he was quoted on Saturday by newspapers as saying.

GWB: Grave Threat to Security of the Region

5125. PelleNilsson - 5/7/2004 5:25:56 PM

How do you know that?

(To carry on with the conspiracy theorising)

5126. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:27:26 PM

"Our military is … performing brilliantly. See, the transition from torture chambers and rape rooms and mass graves and fear of authority is a tough transition. And they're doing the good work of keeping this country stabilized as a political process unfolds."—Bush, remarks on "Tax Relief and the Economy," Iowa, April 15, 2004

5127. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:31:12 PM

You mean risk to the region or the CIA Black Op "Weed the Garden"

The former from the Kuwaiti Foreign Minister...Imagine yourself the Al Qaeda recruiter for the Denmark/Sweden region.....all US friendly regimes in the region beware..as Iraq comes apart jihadists may well spread and take down Jordan and the Gulf States...Egypt even possible...But I think Mubarrak will be able to move toward hositilty fast enuf

The latter????

A friend at the University suggested I write a book on that one...need sources tho...Marshall's probably gonna do it now that I tipped him off...

5128. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:31:30 PM

5129. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:32:51 PM

Chance the Gardener: As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.
President "Bobby": In the garden.
Chance the Gardener: Yes. In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.

5130. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:34:56 PM

Ron Steigler: Mr. Gardner, uh, my editors and I have been wondering if you would consider writing a book for us, something about your um, political philosophy, what do you say?
Chance the Gardener: I can't write.
Ron Steigler: Heh, heh, of course not, who can nowadays? Listen, I have trouble writing a postcard to my children. Look uhh, we can give you a six figure advance, I've provide you with the very best ghost-writer, proof-readers...
Chance the Gardener: I can't read.
Ron Steigler: Of course you can't! No one has the time! We, we glance at things, we watch television...
Chance the Gardener: I like to watch TV.
Ron Steigler: Oh, oh, oh sure you do. No one reads!

5131. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:39:49 PM

It is hardly a revelation that the region is now more unstable and less secure than it was on March 16,2003 and things aren't getting any better

5132. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:46:32 PM

Anger Rings Through Out the Mosques

Clocked at 16 MPH

5133. jexster - 5/7/2004 5:52:27 PM

"They imprisoned our youths, men and women, tortured them and now we have seen the atrocities," said Sheik Hassan Ahmed Taha, preaching at the Abu Hanifa mosque. "The pictures, maybe a thousand of them, show the savagery of the occupation."

"Our wounds are becoming bigger and deeper, and the whole world is watching without moving to do something," said Ahmed Abdul Ghafour Samarrae, who led prayers at Umm al Qurra mosque.

After the services, Sadr's followers filed into the streets and chanted: "Yes, yes to unity, to the Sunnis, to the Shiites. Yes, yes to freedom! Yes, yes to independence!"

5134. jexster - 5/7/2004 7:44:59 PM

5135. jexster - 5/7/2004 7:52:44 PM

Ongoing crisis around Muqtada al-Sadr

Muqtada al-Sadr taunted US troops who are seeking to arrest or kill him. In his Friday prayers sermon in Kufa. Muqtada said,

"What sort of freedom and democracy can we expect from you [Americans] when you take such joy in torturing Iraqi prisoners?" asked Sadr, demanding that the US guards who have been charged with abuse be handed over to Iraqi courts for trial. Referring to Mr Bush's apology on Thursday, the firebrand cleric said: "Your statements are not enough. They [the guards] must be punished in kind.

At the same time, Shaikh Abdul Hadi al-Daraji, one of Muqtada's supporters, said in his Friday prayers sermon in response to the position taken by SCIRI and the grand ayatollahs that Najaf is a red line that the Coalition may not cross: "Where are those who said that an attack on Najaf is a red line? " This was to a joint Sunni-Shiite congregatin that included thousands of al-Sadr supporters who came from various parts of Baghdad, to the mosque of Abu Hanifah al-Nu`man where the prayers were said. It was in this light that Iraqi Shiites interpreted the statement of George W. Bush on Wednesday that Iraqis would take care of Muqtada al-Sadr, without the Coalition having to intervene.

Shaikh al-Daraji said, "We have come here to prove that the forces of evil will never be able to detract from Sunni-Shiite unity. He added, "Your enemy has come to sow the seeds of social chaos among Sunnies and Shities, but he has failed because Islam is one. After the Occupiers finished with Fallujah, they headed to Najaf to attack its symbols and its leadership. Yesterday they attacked Najaf, the site of Imam Ali's tomb and Karbala, the site of Husain's tomb.

He warned that the Coalition had targeted Muqtada, asaid that attacking Muqtada would be zero hour, and would set in motion the notables in all the provinces.

posted by Juan Cole at 5/8/2004 07:55:02 AM

5136. jexster - 5/7/2004 8:07:31 PM

Bahrain Tribune
Editorial, May 7

"No expression of 'deep disgust' by President George Bush or apology by the US military will ever change or even minimise the hatred felt in Iraq and the Arab world towards the Americans and their coalition. Mr Bush said that the way the US military treated Iraqis is 'not the way we do things in America'. This may be true about the US when it deals with Americans. But since the US administration has one set of standards for Americans and Israel and another for Iraqis and Arabs, respect for human rights somehow turns into a joke...

"With the recent pictures from the Abu Ghraib prison, Arabs will not be in the proper state of mind to look kindly at the American quest for winning the war on terrorism despite the fact that they hate terrorism and the terrorists more than they resent the American administration."

What the Arab Papers Say

5137. robertjayb - 5/7/2004 8:44:38 PM

Riverbend---A moderate is radicalized...

I sometimes get emails asking me to propose solutions or make suggestions. Fine. Today's lesson: don't rape, don't torture, don't kill and get out while you can- while it still looks like you have a choice... Chaos? Civil war? Bloodshed? We’ll take our chances- just take your Puppets, your tanks, your smart weapons, your dumb politicians, your lies, your empty promises, your rapists, your sadistic torturers and go.

5138. Magoseph - 5/7/2004 9:38:32 PM

Andrew Sullivan has a link to the Economiist. Scroll down to:
THE ECONOMIST ON RUMMY:

Excerpt: Why he should go--That recommendation will elicit several different responses. One, from critics of the war, will be to point out that the highest level is in fact held by Mr Bush, and that it is the president who should go. The answer is that the electorate has a chance to dismiss Mr Bush in November, while Mr Rumsfeld is an unelected official who, if he is loyal to Mr Bush, ought to want to take the bullet in order to protect his boss. Another response, though, will be to say that the expulsion of Mr Rumsfeld would be disproportionate: wars always bring some abuses, for the soldiers who take part in them have been trained to kill, and the important question is whether the abuses are properly punished when they occur. A third response would be a cynical one: perhaps he should go, it may be said, but he won't. It's an election year. Get real.

5139. jexster - 5/7/2004 10:58:56 PM

Fat boi's right...we got bigger fish to fry

push push in the bush

5140. jexster - 5/8/2004 12:05:07 AM

The last to die..

The Liberation Lie: Early Iraq Abuse Accounts Met With Silence

Detailed allegations of psychological abuse, deprivation, beatings and deaths at U.S.-run prisons in Iraq (news - web sites) were met by public silence from the U.S. Army last October — six months before shocking photographs stirred world outrage and demands for action.

At the time, one ex-prisoner sensed that words might count for little. Instead, Rahad Naif told a reporter, "I wish somebody could go take a picture of Camp Bucca."

These early accounts by freed prisoners, reported by The Associated Press last fall, told of detainees punished by hours lying bound in the sun; being attacked by dogs; being deprived of sufficient water; spending days with hoods over their heads.

One told AP of seeing an elderly Iraqi woman tied up and lying in the dust; others told of ill men dying in crowded tents.

Once we were saying prayers for the death of a prisoner, and we were chanting, so they kept food from us for a day and a half," Saad Naif said.

They don't have morals. They don't respect old or young. They humiliate everybody," said Naif, 31, a Baghdad resident like the others and one of three brothers confined.

"Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms …"—Bush, remarks on "Winston Churchill and the War on Terror," Feb. 4, 2004

5141. jexster - 5/8/2004 1:44:34 AM

"This is a mission in trouble.

President Bush (news - web sites) took us to war exaggerating hyped intelligence, without an imminent threat to our country. He took us to war before all diplomatic options were exhausted, before our allies were on board, and before we had a realistic plan or adequate ground forces to deal with what happened after we reached Baghdad. And all of this was a distraction from our pursuit of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites).

The truth is President Bush made mistake after mistake as Commander-in-Chief, taking us into a war we didn't have to wage, alone and under false pretenses and is now managing it poorly.

Now the mission is in danger as the self-imposed June 30th deadline approaches. To prevent Iraq from becoming a failed state that breeds new terrorists, America must change course. Enough of the unilateralism and over reliance on the military. We must bring in our allies, give them a seat at the table and together create an international organization to provide economic and political assistance to the Iraqi. The US must not bear so much of the burden. We are unlikely to succeed if we continue to do so.

With new American leadership we can gain real help from our NATO (news - web sites) allies - and from countries in the region. With their help, we can create the conditions for free and fair elections, transition to a secure and free Iraq, and bring home much of our military.

My fellow Americans. This is an election year. It is our duty to use the power of the vote and hold accountable our President. We need new leadership in America to keep us safe at home, and to regain respect for America abroad." General Wesley Clark, Democratic Radio Address

5142. robertjayb - 5/8/2004 2:53:26 AM

The daily Kos blog... is rich today, give it a look and follow the links...

A point worth heeding:

Be on the lookout for the Bush administration to start fudging things regarding the abuses at the Abu Gharib prison. Specifically, watch for them to slyly insinuate that the abuses happened in a context in which Americans were being killed and defiled like the civilian contractors killed in Fallujah.
................................................

There is no excuse for what we're learning was done by American soldiers and contractors to the Iraqis incarcerated at Abu Gharib. But it's vitally important Americans understand that those abuses began when the United States was not only claiming to have pacified the country and was supposedly earning the trust and respect of Iraqis; the U.S. was still claiming to embody, in our actions in Iraq, a reverence for human and civil rights and the rule of law that would inspire the Iraqis to follow our example in creating a democratic society with a government based on the inalienable civil and political rights of all its citizens.

5143. robertjayb - 5/8/2004 2:53:27 AM

5144. jexster - 5/8/2004 3:26:44 AM

I couldn't believe my ears...some moron on CBS "We have to stop talking about this and get on with all good we are doing. We're just putting our boys at risk, putting another target on their backs."

HELLO EARTH TO BUSHWORLD!!

The whole world is talking about it...the entire Muslim world knows our nation is led by liars and war criminals...

Whether you like or talk it about it...

who the fuck cares?

5145. jexster - 5/8/2004 3:27:59 AM

Robert that's what the joker who proceeded the nutty bitch on CBS said...

I don't they're gonna have the luxury of time on this one...there's more shit comin

5146. jexster - 5/8/2004 3:40:40 AM

Interrogation Rules Were Issued for Guantanamo
Pentagon also approved aggressive treatment for some detainees in Iraq

5147. jexster - 5/8/2004 4:05:07 AM

Iraq torture scandal deepens
British military intelligence officers were interrogating prisoners in the notorious Abu Ghraib jai as reports of abuses at the prison came to light.

· Tories demand Hoon explains when he was told about prisoner abuse
· Whitehall alarmed over report that detainees were hidden from Red Cross

5148. jexster - 5/8/2004 4:06:10 AM

The fish rots from the head...

Whatever hopes Bush obviously had that he could pin this on 6-8 National Guard troops...

Gone..nil..zip..nada...

Operation Iraqi Freedom my ass

5149. jexster - 5/8/2004 12:53:44 PM

The House of Cards is collapsing faster than I had thought...

Deep divisions are emerging at the top of the U.S. military over the course of the occupation of Iraq (news - web sites), with some senior officers beginning to say that the United States faces the prospect of casualties for years without achieving its goal of establishing a free and democratic Iraq.

Dissension Grows In Senior Ranks On War Strategery

5150. jexster - 5/8/2004 1:00:10 PM

Some officers say the place to begin restructuring U.S. policy is by ousting Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, whom they see as responsible for a series of strategic and tactical blunders over the past year. Several of those interviewed said a profound anger is building within the Army at Rumsfeld and those around him....

But a senior military intelligence officer experienced in Middle Eastern affairs said he thinks the administration needs to rethink its approach to Iraq and to the region. "The idea that Iraq can be miraculously and quickly turned into a shining example of democracy that will 'transform' the Middle East requires way too much fairy dust and cultural arrogance to believe," he said.

No shit...fairy tales

Win-Win

5151. jexster - 5/8/2004 1:10:54 PM

Bush's Hopes for NATO Help Doomed LAT

5152. jexster - 5/8/2004 1:30:48 PM

Juan Cole:Some military analysts apparently are privately calling the Iraq enterprise "Dead Man Walking."

5153. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 4:11:49 PM

5154. wonkers2 - 5/8/2004 4:27:16 PM

Soon Bush will be "dead man walking."

5155. PelleNilsson - 5/8/2004 5:03:29 PM

Who geneuinely thinks that Iraq will decide the election? Stand up and be counted.

5156. jexster - 5/8/2004 5:37:30 PM

I believe that Iraq will be a major factor in the election.

5157. jexster - 5/8/2004 5:37:53 PM

I believe that Iraq will cost Bush votes.

5158. jexster - 5/8/2004 5:38:54 PM

I believe Bush is already Dead Man Walking because of Iraq

5159. Absensia - 5/8/2004 5:41:09 PM

I fear Iraq won't cost Bush votes and that is a dismal indictment od the American electorate,

5160. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:08:36 PM

Defeat the war president defeat the __________ president..

There's a measurement issue obviously but Iraq has already cost votes in the very loose sense...look at the approval charts...look at the trial heats that showed Bush ahead of every demo challenger by 12-20 points last December.

In 5 months, Iraq has already "cost votes" and I submit the election because whether or not a poll respondent flat out says "I voted because of Iraq" or something else, Iraq has substantially and irrevocably changed the dynamic of the election.

BUsh's numbers not only on general approval but leadership, likeability, truth telling, leadership, WOT all have fallen along with his approval numbers on Iraq.

Iraq is the little boy who said "The emperor has no clothes"

A Scandanavian favorite...

5161. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:11:26 PM

Time magazine had a correspondent on CNN who claimed that the torture of prisoners was not isolated to Abu Ghraib but was across all detention facilities and was a matter of DoD policy.

5162. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:25:06 PM

Hersh on Blitzer point to the same old problem...the same one that O'Neill pointed out on the economy...the same problem that caused the mess in Iraq in the first place..the same problem that provoked the CIA led "Revolt of the Professionals" and inspired the Black Op - "Weed the Garden"..the same problem indeed that plagues the Bush campaign...

Blindness and deafness..

Denial...

Up is downism

According to Hersh, Generals warned Rummy et al what was going down and its implications only to find what O'Neill found

"They do not listen nor hear what they do not want to hear"

5163. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:26:29 PM

One Note Rove and the DOTUS (Dolt of the US) himself: The blind leading the deaf leading the clueless...

Kerry's best weapon

5164. PelleNilsson - 5/8/2004 6:29:28 PM

Sorry for derailing this thread.

5165. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:35:05 PM

For once the pundits may be right for they have often said that Bush bet his residency on Iraq....

5166. Roy Bean - 5/8/2004 6:39:13 PM

Jexster you should start your own blog. Like a moderate/liberal version of drudgereport. Or similar to andrewsullivan.com only less sell-out neocon like him.

5167. judithathome - 5/8/2004 6:51:45 PM

The Mote IS Jexster's blog!

5168. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:52:18 PM

I have set it up...called "Prick of the Fork" in honor of Ann Richards...but I am a cybernincompoop...its hard to layoout even one of those do it yourself ones...

A summer project...

Stay tuned

5169. jexster - 5/8/2004 6:52:56 PM

Brits Call for Muslim Troops as Riots Begin

5170. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 7:35:21 PM

The old Repug-shuffle of misdirection and deceit is starting to come into play. The accusations of "politics" and "disloyalty" is the current and increasing GOP drumbeat, but it ain't going to wash.

The Military Police were encouraged to "soften up" the prisoners for patriotic/intelligence reasons. Then a whistle-blower reveals the behavior to higher-ups upon which the grunts are left holding the bag. But the higher-ups aren't going to get away with it either.

The Bush Administration's utter arrogance and disregard for international law has rippled down to Abu Ghraib and the ripples have finally reverted back on the reckless fools who thought they were more patriotic and courageous than their loyal opposition.

When Rumsfeld resigns, and he will, watch the rats scurry and bare their teeth. America is in for a very ugly time.

5171. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 7:40:56 PM

5172. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 7:42:59 PM

5173. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 7:50:12 PM

5174. jexster - 5/8/2004 8:00:56 PM

Totalitarian governments censor, democracies self censor and that is exactly what Lawerence Eagleberger says we should do.

Shut up and pretend nothing happened.

Well may be on Planet Claire fatboy but this is the real world...

The WarParty is shitting collective pants...

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Torture, abuse and humiliation of prisoners is widespread in U.S.-run detention centers in Iraq (news - web sites), and not limited to a few cases, non-governmental organizations in Iraq and an American Christian group said Sunday.

"We are here to tell the world that the cases of torture of Iraqi prisoners are not isolated incidents and they are not limited to Abu Ghraib prison, nor to the six U.S. MPs," a spokeswoman for the Iraqi Human Rights Organization (IHRO) told a news conference in Baghdad.

5175. jexster - 5/8/2004 8:06:26 PM

"One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."—Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, Jan. 12, 2004

5176. jexster - 5/8/2004 8:12:07 PM

Excellent Wiz..

Gave me an idea..I am sorta tight with top folks in the SF Republican Party...

Yes believe it or not..I always carry my ReDefeat Bush button as a talisman..

I wonder if we could arrange an appearance for SOTUS (Submissive of the US) at this year's Folsom Street Fair..

300,000 people ...the second largest tourist event of the year in SF..late September!

5177. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 9:46:33 PM

And it all came to pass . . .

5178. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/8/2004 10:35:17 PM

Dissension Grows In Senior Ranks On War Strategy U.S. May Be Winning Battles in Iraq But Losing the War, Some Officers Say

5179. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/9/2004 12:16:19 AM

5180. jexster - 5/9/2004 2:02:04 AM

I heard that the Videos show torture of children

5181. jexster - 5/9/2004 6:22:27 AM

Fareed Zakaria:

Leave process aside: the results are plain. On almost every issue involving postwar Iraq—troop strength, international support, the credibility of exiles, de-Baathification, handling Ayatollah Ali Sistani—Washington's assumptions and policies have been wrong. By now most have been reversed, often too late to have much effect. This strange combination of arrogance and incompetence has not only destroyed the hopes for a new Iraq. It has had the much broader effect of turning the United States into an international outlaw in the eyes of much of the world.

Whether he wins or loses in November, George W. Bush's legacy is now clear: the creation of a poisonous atmosphere of anti-Americanism around the globe. I'm sure he takes full responsibility.

As the president says, we misunderestimate him. He was not born stupid. He chose stupidity. Bush may look like a well-meaning dolt. On consideration, he's something far more dangerous: a dedicated fool. Jake Weisberg

5182. jexster - 5/9/2004 6:31:10 AM

Iraq's first human rights minister launched a blistering attack yesterday on America's chief administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, saying that he had warned him repeatedly last year that US soldiers were abusing Iraqi detainees.

5183. jexster - 5/9/2004 6:38:51 AM

"Sometimes they pretended to kill me" An Al-Jazeera cameraman detained and tortured at Abu Ghraib recalls beatings, threats and photos of torture victims used as screen savers on military PCs

5184. jexster - 5/9/2004 6:44:05 AM

I found out later that they were punishing other people there." Al Baz says that he heard screams, men shouting "Good Bush, bad Saddam!" and crying out to God for help. "But it didn't do anything to decrease the punishment they were going through."

5185. jexster - 5/9/2004 6:57:04 AM

5186. alistairConnor - 5/9/2004 10:30:32 AM

I heard on the radio this morning (haven't seen confirmation in the press yet) that US soldiers had training in "breaking down resistence to interrogation" techniques in a named base in England before deployment to Iraq.

Clearly the low-level torture and humiliation were standard practice, officially covered. Presumably the rapes and murders were individual excesses.

But once a soldier has been morally degraded by being authorised/ordered to torture people, excesses are hardly surprising.

5187. jexster - 5/9/2004 4:06:17 PM

Or pumped full of crap about Muslims looking to avenge 9/11...

But lies DO have consequences, as I was reminded again this morning as I flipped on the news...

The Iraqi oil pipeline to Basra is now in flames

5188. jexster - 5/9/2004 4:07:38 PM

GENEVA - A Red Cross report disclosed Monday said coalition intelligence officers estimated that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake and said Red Cross observers witnessed U.S. officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells.

AP Photo

AP Photo
Slideshow: Abuse of Iraq Prisoners Investigated

Latest headlines:
· Bush Supports Rumsfeld in Abuse Scandal
AP - 2 minutes ago
· Red Cross Report Describes Abuse in Iraq
AP - 25 minutes ago
· Journal says photos show dogs menacing prisoner
Chicago Tribune - 25 minutes ago
Special Coverage

The report by the International Committee of the Red Cross supports its allegations that abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was broad and "not individual acts" — contrary to President Bush (news - web sites)'s contention that the mistreatment "was the wrongdoing of a few."

"ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation of the persons deprived of their liberty with their interrogators," according to the confidential report.

The delegates saw in October how detainees at Abu Ghraib were kept "completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness," the report said.

"Upon witnessing such cases, the ICRC interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities," the report said. "The military intelligence officer in charge of the interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process.'"

5189. jexster - 5/9/2004 4:39:11 PM

The Financial Times reports that the deepening crisis in Iraq has left the Bush administration with few options, as well as a lack of direction and a prevailing sense of gloom and desperation.

[IRAQ: Bush runs out of options as chaos deepens
Financial Times, May 07, 2004
By Guy Dinmore
Iraq's deepening crisis has left the Bush administration with few options, and although the US has entrusted the United... Subscriber]

Patrick Basham, senior fellow in Cato's Center for Representative Government, writes: "In Iraq, most of the ingredients critical to the development of a civil society are either absent or were diminished by decades of benign or deliberate neglect by Saddam and his predecessors. Iraqi society has suffered through periods of colonial rule, monarchy, Arab nationalism, and fascist revolution."

5190. jexster - 5/9/2004 4:55:04 PM

Neither accident nor aberration, it was policy...

"Only good Moslem is a dead Moslem" - Al D/Osama B/Mohammed P Big Horsie Theory of Moslem Control

5191. jexster - 5/9/2004 5:00:42 PM

International Day of Emergency Protests — San Francisco

Saturday, June 5
11 a.m. Gather at UN Plaza
(Market btwn 7th and Hyde, Civic Center BART)

June 5 is the anniversary of the 1967 war in which Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza

5192. jexster - 5/9/2004 5:29:52 PM

East Baghdad Erupts - Rebels Against Imperial Rule - US Troops Expelled

5193. jexster - 5/9/2004 6:37:55 PM

5194. jexster - 5/9/2004 9:31:30 PM

This should cheer the hearts of millions of Moronic Fascista:

Bush Reserves Special Torture for Saddam Officials

5195. jexster - 5/9/2004 9:54:59 PM

Tom Ricks of the Washington Post, the guy who broke the "defeat is just around the corner" story on CNN:

"Never before have line officers spoken out so publicly or bravely against administration policy. They remember what happened to Gen Shinseki and recognize that they are now targets of the Ideologues but they are more concerned about the policy they are being asked to implement."

The idea that Iraq can be miraculously and quickly turned into a shining example of democracy that will 'transform' the Middle East requires way too much fairy dust and cultural arrogance to believe

5196. jexster - 5/10/2004 1:10:00 AM

GENEVA - Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested "by mistake," according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday. It also said U.S. officers mistreated inmates at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison by keeping them naked in totally dark, empty cells.

Abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was widespread and routine, the report finds — contrary to President Bush (news - web sites)'s contention that the mistreatment "was the wrongdoing of a few."

While many detainees were quickly released, high-ranking officials in Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government — including those listed on the U.S. military's deck of cards — were held for months in solitary confinement.

Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report.

The 24-page document cites abuses — some "tantamount to torture" — including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution."

5197. wonkers2 - 5/10/2004 2:57:10 AM

"Hooding." Again, I wonder where they get the hoods? Are they standard Quartermaster issue? Doubtful. I was in the Army and a reserve unit for several years and never saw or heard of a single one. Does CIA/MI sew their own? Perhaps the CIA has a supplier? Are there catalogs offering S&M gear? It's doubtful that a sufficient supply would have been left over from Sadaam Hussein. This is not a frivolous question. If the hoods came from somewhere in MI or CIA, that means that much of what happened in Abu Gharib was standard operating procedure. If so, focusing on the lowly enlisted kiddies is a travesty.

5198. bubbaette - 5/10/2004 3:30:47 AM

Weren't the prisoners in Gitmo hooded during transport?

5199. jexster - 5/10/2004 7:54:00 AM

Yea I think they were...they didn't change anything for Iraq..this wasn't an isolated incident either...

Why do you think the Cretin of the US went to see Rummy with Cheney?

Not for the view from Memorial or 14th st Bridge that's for sure...

The jig is up..

The neocons are quietly burying their nonsense about pro-US democracy in Iraq and Iran is gonna pick up the pieces

Count on it.

5200. jexster - 5/10/2004 7:57:22 AM

I swear on Harry the Talking Bass that I didn't read this before the last post...

Red Cross: Iraqi Torture Widespread and Routine

What is fat lady Karl Rove gonna sing us now?

Another chorus of torture chambers, rape emporia, mass graves...Ding dong the witch is dead?

The War President in NYC I cannot wait...

5201. jayackroyd - 5/10/2004 8:40:11 AM

Iran picking up the pieces is not necessarily a bad outcome, as long as the Kurds don't lose their autonomy.

There is, of course, an oil issue to be settled.

5202. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 10:30:05 AM

Salient passages from the Red Cross story:

The Red Cross has emphasized that the report was only a summary of its repeated attempts in person and in writing from March to November 2003 to get U.S. officials to stop abuses. Those earlier interventions by the Red Cross far preceded the Pentagon (news - web sites)'s decision to investigate after a low-ranking U.S. soldier stepped forward in January.

.... That's what unilateralism looks like, operationally. Pervasive paranoia and defiance of any and all international institutions. Fuck the geneva convention, fuck the red cross.

5203. OhioSTOPAS - 5/10/2004 12:18:19 PM

It looks like over the weekend it was decided that firing Rumsfeld (or having him resign) would be bad for Bush's re(sic)-election campaign, signalled by Cheney's declaration that Rumsfeld is the "best Secretary of Defense the United States has ever had." Bush followed suit on Monday, and from what I heard on right-wing talk radio yesterday, the word is out and everbody's in line.

Cheney's statement is of course ludicrous: Rumsfeld's reign has been one mistake after another, starting with thousands of Americans slaughtered by air attack while our jet fighters sat on the ground. But putting that aside, now that Bush and his boys have dug in their heels (heels have heels?), how do we demonstrate to the world that we mean it when we say what went on at Abu Ghraib was unacceptable?

5204. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 1:36:16 PM

British hoodies broke the rules

the defence secretary conceded that a 30-year-old rule banning the hooding of captives was broken.

so yeah, you wonder where the theatre accessories came from.
A private contractor perhaps?

This Clwyd woman, the living embodiment of Blair's human rights alibi for the Iraq war, is spitting tacks because nobody told her they were being beastly with prisoners!
Ann Clwyd, the prime minister's human rights envoy to Iraq, made clear she was furious that the report had not been brought to her attention. "As [you] know I supported action to topple the regime of Saddam Hussein," she told Mr Hoon. "Can [you] explain why [your] officials failed to show me the Red Cross reports when they arrived?"

Grow up dear. It never occurred to you to talk to the Red Cross yourself?

5205. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/10/2004 2:31:15 PM

5206. jayackroyd - 5/10/2004 2:40:25 PM

There is something false about the infuriated legislators here as well. They also got Red Cross reports.

5207. wonkers2 - 5/10/2004 3:09:51 PM

Re: There is something false about the infuriated legislators here as well.

"At a joint hearing of the House and Senate intelligence committees in September (2002), Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorist Centre, spoke cryptically about the agency's new forms of 'operational flexibility' in dealing with suspected terrorists. 'All you need to know is that there was a before 9/11 and there was an after 9/11' Mr. Black said. 'After 9/11 the gloves came off.'

Sydney Morning Herald 12/27/02 quoted in PrisonPlanet.com News Alert

5208. Macnas - 5/10/2004 3:10:50 PM

The Brits, I think, came up with the hooding thing, along with the white noise and the rest of it, back in the late 60's & early 70's.
Castlereigh detention centre, up north, was used as a kind of lab for determining what worked and what did not.

All this huffing and puffing, is because some asshole took photographs of the abuse, and it became public. If it had not, then all the ministers in the UK and reps. in the US would have stayed quiet about it.

5209. thoughtful - 5/10/2004 3:29:20 PM

I really cracked up when rummy suggested his resignation depends upon his ability to continue to be effective. Well, given he's been so ineffective to date, if one is asking if he can continue to be as effective as he has been, that's a low hurdle. If, however, one asks if he can be as effective as the job requires him to be, that's a whole 'nother thing!

5210. judithathome - 5/10/2004 3:31:12 PM

Here's a little humor break from a poster on the Atlantic:

How many members of the Bush Administration are needed to replace a light bulb?

The Answer is SEVEN:

(1) One to deny that a light bulb needs to be replaced,

(2) one to attack and question the patriotism of anyone who has questions about the light bulb,

(3) one to blame the previous administration for the need of a new light bulb,

(4) one to arrange the invasion of a country rumored to have a secret stockpile of light bulbs,

(5) one to get together with Vice President Cheney and figure out how to pay Halliburton Industries one million dollars for a light bulb,

(6) one to arrange a photo-op session showing Bush changing the light bulb while dressed in a flight suit and wrapped in an American flag,

(7) and finally one to explain to Bush the difference between screwing a light bulb and screwing the country.

5211. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 3:34:18 PM

I agree, it's all an inevitable consequence of war, and no frightfully big deal in itself.

It illustrates the high degree of naivety and/or hypocrisy on the part of the pro-war people, who either never imagined that war was so ugly, or think that the torture stuff is OK, or both.

But mostly, it (the whole sorry mess actually) will considerably increase the price of going to war for the USA in the future. Which is probably a bad thing.

5212. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 3:35:05 PM

5211 in response to 5208

5213. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 3:37:12 PM

Thanks for the light bulb story, Judith!

5214. Macnas - 5/10/2004 3:44:36 PM

I was talking with my Missus the other night about it, and she said that what depressed her more than anything was the reaction of the public in the US.

An RTE (Irish television) reporter was on the street in Washington doing a bit of vox pop, asking what was the reaction to the 60 Minutes show and what have you. A woman stared at the camera and stated "if we was'nt doing it to them, they'd be doing it to us."

It was the general feeling among those interviewed.

I suppose I'm a cynic in this matter, as far as I'm concerned if you escape with your life and limbs intact after being captured by your enemy, you've done well.

5215. thoughtful - 5/10/2004 3:49:43 PM

OMG!!! Isn't it enough that we've made an utter mess of afghanistan? Isn't it enough that we've made an even bigger mess of iraq with absolutely no clue how to get out of it? Now they're going after Syria!?!?!?

Check this:

President Bush will order economic sanctions against Syria this week for supporting terrorism and not doing enough to prevent militant fighters from entering neighboring Iraq, congressional and administration sources said Monday.....

“We have talked previously about our concerns when it comes to Syria’s continued development of weapons of mass destruction, when it comes to their support for terrorism and when it comes to their failure to adequately police its border with Iraq,” White House press secretary Scott McClellan said."

The only thing that will stop these wackos on crusade is the Nov. elections...let's hope!

5216. judithathome - 5/10/2004 3:52:30 PM

It was the general feeling among those interviewed

It will be the general feeling among those who vote for Bush in November, too. There are more of them than we imagine.

5217. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/10/2004 4:03:25 PM

I just heard Ralph Nader on C-Span. Stirring and dead on wrt his criticism of George Bush's Middle East blunders. Kerry needs to listen to his effective argumentation and figure out a way to somehow enlist him in his own (Kerry's) campaign.

5218. wonkers2 - 5/10/2004 4:20:40 PM

More on the hoods:

Carl Levin--The collars, leashes, dogs, hoods and digital cameras didn't just spontaneously appear at Abu Gharib. Someone organized the effort.

5219. jexster - 5/10/2004 4:23:22 PM

That's right..this was no aberration.

Reoprt from the Bush Gulag: Brits Murder 37 Including 8 Year Old Girl

5220. jexster - 5/10/2004 4:24:58 PM

"Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms …"—Bush, remarks on "Winston Churchill and the War on Terror," Feb. 4, 2004

5221. jexster - 5/10/2004 4:37:04 PM

ICRC Report on the Bush Gulag - Full Text (pdf)

5222. thoughtful - 5/10/2004 4:42:56 PM

Wiz, I agree about Nader in a sense. Whenever I hear him, he makes a lot of sense for about the first 10 minutes. But then after that he veers off the deep end into a scary amount of nonsense.

That's what's bothering me the most about kerry though...he shouldn't need help honing his message. He's been in politics too long. But doggone if he can't come up with a single sound bite. He needs a little help from pat schoeder...she was a master at the soundbite...author of the phrase 'teflon president' as I recall.

5223. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 4:45:06 PM

People keep bringing up Vietnam. Last night, on Charlie Rose, the thought was voiced that the Bush Iraq debacle could be the greatest foreign policy blunder "since Vietnam".

I don't know about that, have no feel for it. Though, naturally, I have studied the episode at length in HS and college, I'm too young and came to this country too late (1981) to have a really authoritative and visceral sense of what Vietnam meant to ordinary Americans and its role in shaping politics and US foreign policy.

And I'm leery of the analogy, because I find it hard to believe that Vietnam turned out to be quite as bad as Iraq is shaping up to be in terms of putting shackles on the US and affecting global opinions against this country. I mean, forget about the ME, the atmosphere is rabidly anti-American even in traditional allies in Europe and Latin America, and totally hostile even in customarily moderate populaces in Asia.

It's not iredeemable, even now. But the way things are going, you cannot discount Iraq turning to civil war and descending into a chaotic state and a breeding ground for a thousand bin Ladens, plus the destabilizing agent for Turkey, Iran and Jordan.

5224. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 4:53:36 PM

Russert said, yesterday, that the photos and video that are coming show US military officers forcing Iraqi prisoners to engage in sex acts.

The odd thing about media commentary on this matter is that people keep on repeating "this is going to inflame the Arab world," "these kinds of acts are taboo among Muslims," blah blah.

That's insanely blinkered. In fact, the whole world is reeling from the images and the idea of these abuses. In one large sense, the very common view of America as a totally depraved society is confirmed among all the more conservative societies of the world. But what is far far more significant than even that, the ability of America to regularly conjure up some moral authority in international affairs is shot, gone.

For the next 25 years, at least, every time a US leader seeks the moral bully pulpit - the image of that slatternly disgrace - PFC England - will be fetched out, and the intentions will be shown as empty.

5225. Wombat - 5/10/2004 4:58:48 PM

That's just as well. US advocacy of Human Rights has almost always been hypocritical.

5226. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 5:02:35 PM

Wombat,

It's true that I have repeatedly argued exactly that, over the years.

But those often-hypocritical stances have also been convenient cover for some good, beneficial, advocacy over the years.

5227. Wombat - 5/10/2004 5:06:47 PM

What frightens me is that the US military may be getting some of its advice on handling insurgents from Israel.

It is also apparent that they missed the central lesson of the Battle of Algiers.

5228. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 5:07:55 PM

The potential for positive US intervention has been seriously weakened, probably for a long time to come. Future US presidents will be timorous, and US voters will swing from their recent interventionism to isolationism.

The only upside is that the next president will only be able to act in multilateral frameworks.

5229. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 5:08:55 PM

What frightens me is that the US military may be getting some of its advice on handling insurgents from Israel.

This seems to be inversed at the moment. Did you note Tsahal's brilliant Falluja-style intervention in Gaza today?

5230. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 5:13:06 PM

There's nothing to be done about the insurgents, now, Wombat. The US needs - as swiftly as possible - to withdraw to its bases and let whichever Iraqi strongmen emerge have a free hand.

It's going to be roughly as bad as Saddam, I'm betting, within a year. That's if the country doesn't break up, in which case you will have Turkey invade and fight a long-term Kurdish insurgency and the rest of the country engaged in a fight to the finish between the Sunnis and Shia.

But the US will have its bases there, which is a plus one supposes.

--

Shibley Telhami, who has been proven right almost as much as he has been proven wrong, predicts that the rationale given for war is very soon going to officially move to oil. That is, it went from WMD to democracy to "no more torture" and now will move to the rationale of securing the oil supply. This, of course, will be no great shock to most of the world.

5231. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 5:18:10 PM

The odd thing is that 50% or even more of the total hostility towards this country will disappear - at least for a time - if Bush is sent home to Crawford in November.

But the American public has been driven insane in a very cunning manner by the RNC and the yapping attack dogs of Fox et al. The fact that the whole world (largely) wants Kerry to win is unbelievably and quite successfully spun as negative for Kerry. It's logic turned upside down. The whole world wants him, so it must be bad to elect him.

Damned perverse, and quite uniquely American.

5232. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 5:18:41 PM

sorry

--

The odd thing is that 50% or even more of the total hostility towards this country will disappear - at least for a time - if Bush is sent home to Crawford in November.

But the American public has been driven insane in a very cunning manner by the RNC and the yapping attack dogs of Fox et al. The fact that the whole world (largely) wants Kerry to win is unbelievably and quite successfully spun as negative for Kerry. It's logic turned upside down. The whole world wants him, so it must be bad to elect him.

Damned perverse, and quite uniquely American.

5233. alistairConnor - 5/10/2004 5:36:03 PM

Uniquely American? Not so sure. Serbia is another example.

5234. marjoribanks - 5/10/2004 8:00:54 PM

Well, it's worse than Russert said.

From Seymour Hersh's article this week.

NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers “severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and ‘acting inappropriately with a dead body.’ The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.”

Rape and murder, it doesn't get any worse. Forget about what remaining goodwill there is among Iraqis for the American occupiers.

5235. judithathome - 5/10/2004 8:05:42 PM

Oh well, what do we care? God is on OUR side. ^s

5236. judithathome - 5/10/2004 8:33:25 PM

Website Says American Captive Beheaded

5237. jexster - 5/10/2004 9:15:10 PM

American detention tactics have turned Iraqis such as Satae Qusay, a kebab chef, against an occupation they once supported. Qusay said he was arrested in June while visiting the house of his brother, a former low-ranking Baath Party official, and did not see an attorney during his subsequent three-month detention in a fog-bound prison camp in the southern city of Umm Qasr. There, he said, he was forced to endure a shower of soldiers' tobacco juice, eat food off a dirty floor and urinate on himself when he was prohibited from using bathrooms.

"They freed us from an oppressor," said Qusay, 40. "But now I think they came to laugh at us."

NEWSFLASH Qusay...Bush didn't come to liberate you...he never gave a rat's ass about "liberation"

That was just another slogan, another lie....

5238. robertjayb - 5/10/2004 9:51:35 PM

The Guardian has the beheading story too...(ref Judith's link above)

What I've read so far indicates that this guy was a solo freelancer, wandering around Iraq looking for work. What the hell kind of war zone is Bremer running?

5239. jexster - 5/10/2004 10:01:25 PM

The Emerging Line of the Limbaugh Legion: McCain Walks Out On Blowhard Inhofe

Clothing himself in shame, Sen. Inhofe on Abu Ghraib: "I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the
treatment ... These prisoners, you know they're not there for traffic violations. If they're in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands and here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals."

Of course, according to American military intelligence officers who spoke with the ICRC, 70% to 90% of the detainees in Iraq were there by mistake.

Another example of how liberal democracy can't be spread by the most illiberal elements in American society.

According to CNN, McCain walked out during Inhofe's statement.

-- Josh Marshall

5240. jexster - 5/10/2004 10:10:48 PM

Q: "What the hell kind of war zone is Bremer running?"

A: Last summer, the U.S. civil administrator, Paul Bremer, said: "We dominate the scene and we will continue to impose our will on this country."

Correction: Bremer isn't running a "war zone". He is securing peace, freedom and democracy in a "liberation zone"

5241. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/10/2004 11:46:00 PM

I don't know about that, have no feel for it. Though, naturally, I have studied the episode at length in HS and college, I'm too young and came to this country too late (1981) to have a really authoritative and visceral sense of what Vietnam meant to ordinary Americans and its role in shaping politics and US foreign policy.

If you substitute “Terrorism” for “Communism“ and the fear-based arrogant bastards in power during the early twenty-first century with the fear-based arrogant bastards in power during the latter twentieth century, then you'll, pretty much, get the idea. The death and mayhem isn’t any different—just the victims.

5242. jexster - 5/10/2004 11:58:59 PM

Wayne Madsen a former National Security Council staffer, explores the evidence for an Israeli connection to the prison torture scandal in Iraq.

Connection: Israeli ex-security men trained in anti-Palestinian torture techniques and the private security contractors.

5243. jexster - 5/11/2004 12:04:32 AM

correction...former NSA official under Ron "in a distant place" Raygun

5244. jexster - 5/11/2004 12:17:32 AM

Sadrists Launch Wider Insurgency in South

5245. jexster - 5/11/2004 12:21:09 AM

The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq appears to be planning a massive rally on Friday in Najaf, which American officers fear may spark massive violence and draw them into fighting in the sacred center of the city.

So much for the Cretin-in-chief's horseshit about Sadr being isolated...SCIR are Sadr's rivals...

But the congenitally imbecilic wouldn't know that unless Condi the Crack Whore told them..and Condi don't speak unles she's spoken at.

5246. jexster - 5/11/2004 12:25:50 AM

Bush Ordered Spanish to Bring in Muqtada 'Dead or Alive'

And what did the Spaniards tell Bush????

Yaya tome una mierda. Chupe mantequilla de mi culo, cantamañanas

5247. jexster - 5/11/2004 3:34:01 AM

Bush Sturmbannfuehrer Boykin Linked to POW Torture

5248. jexster - 5/11/2004 4:59:53 AM

The Jessica Lynch Lie Had Consequences....

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A female Army soldier in the notorious 320th Military Police Battalion meted out "vigilante justice" on Iraqi prisoners she believed had raped former POW Jessica Lynch, according to a letter from her battalion commander obtained by The Associated Press.

Lt. Col. Jerry L. Phillabaum, the troubled battalion's commander, leveled the allegation in a rebuttal to charges against his leadership of the 320th, some of whose soldiers were charged with abusing prisoners last fall at the Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad.

5249. jexster - 5/11/2004 5:47:36 AM

BUSH:
"We believe that democracy will allow these gifts to flourish, that freedom is the answer to hopelessness and terror, that a free Iraq will lead the way to a new and better Middle East and that a free Iraq will make our country more secure . . . "

COLE:
So far American-ruled Iraq has been the biggest black eye for democracy since the Reichstag fire. And, the photographs now circulating of prisoner torture are the biggest recruiting tool for al-Qaeda and other anti-American terrorism that Bin Laden could ever have hoped for. The US occupation of Iraq has been so incompetently handled that it has made all Americans less secure by an order of magnitude.

5250. sakonige - 5/11/2004 8:08:58 AM

hi, you guys.

5251. Macnas - 5/11/2004 9:14:29 AM

It seems that awful beheading news is true.

5252. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 10:33:35 AM

Blast from the past :

8497. Daniel Sickles - 5/8/2003 8:52:45 PM

arky

You ask: "Was or was not Iraq a threat to the US or our allies at the time of Colin Powell's presentation of evidence to the UN?"

Yes.

"If so, specifically how so, and if not, then why did the administration say that it was, going so far as to knowingly use dubious evidence?"

I have linked articles and presented copious evidence answering this. Condensed, they were a regional menace, they sought WMD, they had WMD, they supported terrorist groups, they had links to al Qaeda, and they had a prior disposition of terrorism against the United States.

PENDING QUESTIONS

Ohio

With regard to the biolab, Ohio has written Why is something found in Arbil presumed to have belonged to Saddam Hussein's government? I was wondering if anyone had read anything about the BioLab being the property of a nation or entity other than Iraq?

Also please expound further on the distinction you are trying to make between Democrats who lied about WMD in Iraq pre-war and the lies you attribute to the administration. I've read the public statements of Clinton, Gore, Rodham Clinton, Lieberman, Gephardt, Edwards, Kerry, Biden, and Wellstone, as well as the text of HJR 114, and contrary to your claims, these individuals were not simply recommending we keep a lid on Iraq with inspectors and continued sanctions.

Alistair

Do you still believe the U.S. military was lazy and committing war crimes?

jay

1) Where did Blair or Bush say that Iraq was tied to 9/11?

2) Do you believe Iraq had chemical weapons within 6 months of the invasion?

3) You stated earlier that Blair "made a pretty good case" for military intervention in Iraq. Could you please provide me quotes and/or links to that "pretty good case"?

5253. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 10:34:16 AM

Alistair

Do you still believe the U.S. military was lazy and committing war crimes?

One year later, Danny :

Yes and yes.

5254. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 10:39:46 AM

8514. Macnas - 5/9/2003 11:58:38 AM

US marines still under under fire from day to day.

It would be interesting to see the changes if any in approach to the current and any possible future military occupation, whether in Iraq or elsewhere.

Apart from being the finest offensive force in the world, the grey area of defence/occupation/peacekeeping is not one which the US has got to grips with yet.

5255. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 10:42:50 AM

More from a year ago :
8508. arkymalarky - 5/9/2003 5:43:51 AM
[quoting Ronski]
"But I submit that the Arab world has indeed been warned that the U.S. will not put up with thousands of its citizens killed by terrorism, and that it will pay the price if that happens again. "

That's what they used to tell black men, especially in the name of protecting white women. I actually had someone explain to me once that his black friend couldn't go to a special personal event (I think a wedding) because this guy's aunt had been raped by a black man. I made the same point to him I tried to make to you--lucky for her family it wasn't a white man or she'd have to disown them all. There's just no way hostility against an entire ethnic group adds up to anything defensible.
[...]

8509. ronski - 5/9/2003 6:03:03 AM

[...]
There is some considerable value in suggesting to your enemies, especially if your enemies are indeed psychotic, as many of the pathologies in the Middle East are, that you are prepared to act even more to the extreme they they are.

Frankly, I want Egyptians and Pakistanis to wonder if, God forbid, some of their nationals destroy New York, Washington, or Burlington with an atomic bomb, they will have a country left in which to dither about whether it was Israelis who were behind the whole affair.

(Btw, I just came back from some meetings with Arab-Americans, so don't imagine I am some sort of raging bigot.)

5256. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 10:45:14 AM

A year later :

Now that it's clear to the Arabs that the US can act as much to the extreme as the terrorists and/or Iraqi partisans, I guess they are going to start behaving themselves.

5257. Macnas - 5/11/2004 11:26:52 AM

Who'd have thought it would have come to this?

The current prisoner abuse scandal aside, I find it hard to understand how anyone can say that Rumsfeld has done an outstanding job when since the invasion, the level of unrest and casualties has escalated.

5258. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 12:09:25 PM

Actually, the posts of 12 May 2003 (by my clock) are pretty interesting (in all modesty!) on the subjects of WMD (remember WMD?), war crimes, and much more.

5259. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 12:21:52 PM

Who'd have thought it would have come to this?

(in all modesty) me. Well, I've been eternally optimistic that they would learn something and stop making everything worse, but not surprised. I never misunderestimated the madmen.

5260. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 12:23:39 PM

Actually, that "madmen" label I used for the Rumsfeld clique... that always put Sickles, Pincher etc in quite a froth...

They may not be clinically psychotic, but boy, talk about delusional.

5261. bubbaette - 5/11/2004 12:50:51 PM

interesting. Whatever became of Sickles, Ronski, et al?

5262. OhioSTOPAS - 5/11/2004 1:01:51 PM

We should have tried to catch or kill the beheading butcher al-Zarqawi when we had the chance. But no . . .

Getting al-Zarqawi would have undercut the case for invading Iraq.

MSNBC, March 2, 2004: ". . . long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.

"In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

"The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council. . . .

"Four months later . . . The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq. . . .

"In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq.

"The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.

"Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

"The United States did attack the camp at Kirma at the beginning of the war, but it was too late — Zarqawi and many of his followers were gone. . . .

"And despite the Bush administration’s tough talk about hitting the terrorists before they strike, Zarqawi’s killing streak continues today."

Update, May 2004: Zarqawi's killing streak continues today.

5263. Magoseph - 5/11/2004 1:23:34 PM

Whatever became of Sickles, Ronski, et al?

You'll find them at ThePerfectWorld.

5264. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 1:44:34 PM

Ronski still drops in from time to time. The brawlers -- Sickles, Ace and Pincher -- had already basically left by this time last year, they only came back to gloat over Iraq, and burn their bridges it seems.

5265. Macnas - 5/11/2004 1:56:50 PM

re 5261

Ronski might be over in TPW, Sickles might be as well under another name. Pincher is away somewhere I think, or not posting anywhere obvious, Dantes might be calling himself Nick Kronos in TPW, I'm not sure about any of this though.

I have not seen Concerned in a two weeks or so now, and I'm a bit, well, concerned.

RDBrewer has popped in now and then, but not as much as he used to, more is the pity.

5266. PelleNilsson - 5/11/2004 2:11:43 PM

Sickles undergoes these regular name changes probably to confuse people, considering that his positions inevitably become untenable as time goes by. He might be Aaron Burr now, but I'm far from sure because I don't follow TPW regularly. Kronos is definitely Dantes.

5267. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/11/2004 2:14:34 PM

RDBrewer has popped in now and then, but not as much as he used to, more is the pity.

Yeah, deceitful troublemakers who like to stir up the pot can suspend the tedium.

Actually, that "madmen" label I used for the Rumsfeld clique... that always put Sickles, Pincher etc in quite a froth...

They may not be clinically psychotic, but boy, talk about delusional.

This is for them . . .

5268. Macnas - 5/11/2004 2:56:17 PM

Wiz, you know how it goes, if we were all the same, the queue at the cinema would be far too long.

5269. alistairConnor - 5/11/2004 2:58:20 PM

Kronos is definitely Dantes.

That's a shame. I thought he was genuine about going cold-turkey on internet forums, and wished him luck.

Overall, it's just a shame that so few of the old bunch of right-wingers can disagree with someone without getting all bitter and personal about it. Perhaps the worst thing about 9/11 has been the way it has permanently damaged the psyche of so many Americans.

5270. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/11/2004 3:11:06 PM

I understand, Mac, but when some of those in line try to piss on the back of your leg, they need to be rebuked.

5271. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/11/2004 3:13:02 PM

Alistair, I would argue that those psyches were pretty much damaged before 9/11.

5272. Magoseph - 5/11/2004 3:15:20 PM

What I have thought about for a long time is why al-Qaeda has not pulled a McVeigh operation in the US. All they need is one or two people, a rented truck, and some fertilizer. There are targets everywhere. I believe two-hundred and sixty-eight were killed.

Is it just possible that they believe their objective--a 'to the death struggle' between Islam and the civilized world is better served by George Bush's reelection?

5273. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/11/2004 3:20:47 PM

. . . and speaking of damaged psyches . . .

5274. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/11/2004 3:23:40 PM

5275. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/11/2004 3:27:47 PM

Parents blame Bush for son's execution

5276. Macnas - 5/11/2004 3:31:06 PM

re 5272

I would think, that security in the US is probably more effective and hard at work than is publicly obvious. Well I hope it is.

And in practical terms, why travel when you can do it at home? Iraq is undoubtedly attracting armed factions from across the middle-east, where there are actual battles ongoing and anyone with a weapon can join in.

GWB imposing sanctions on Syria for not controlling the border and allowing the terrorist hordes to sweep, Mongol style, into Iraq just highlights the poor control the US has on the Iraqi side of the fence.

5277. Magoseph - 5/11/2004 3:48:53 PM

And in practical terms, why travel when you can do it at home?

Good point, thanks, Mac.

5278. marjoribanks - 5/11/2004 5:05:01 PM

Afghanistan is going to be in the news again for a bit, what with the new abuse allegations.

It's a good time, thus, to read Ahmed Rashid's superb round-up of what has been happening there in the past year (in the form of a book review), complete with severe indictment of the Bushite negligence.

In hindsight, September 11 was the result both of a chronic failure of intelligence gathering and coordination among agencies working in Washington and of a failure to conceive of a strategy for the region including Afghanistan, Pakistan, and neighboring countries. But since September 11 there has been a far bigger blunder by the Bush administration: its failure to sustain momentum in the efforts to make Afghanistan more secure and more stable and to catch bin Laden. No hindsight is required in order to make this judgment. What needed to be done after the defeat of the Taliban should have been obvious. What successive US administrations could have done to prevent September 11 will always be debatable; perhaps the failure of intelligence to anticipate it is ultimately understandable, in view of the ponderous workings of bureaucracies. What is unforgivable is the failure of the current US administration to maintain the resources and manpower needed to rebuild Afghanistan and to arrest bin Laden after September 11, and its decision to go to war in Iraq instead.

5279. jexster - 5/11/2004 7:54:07 PM

More shit about to hit the Cretin's Fan...

Bush trying to make scapegoats of those soldiers isn't gonna get past their lawyers...

"Told, directed that they had to kick ass to stop another 9/11"

In Iraq?

Lies have consequences

5280. jexster - 5/11/2004 8:28:42 PM

Bush is now highly radioactive...

Blair faces resignation call

Prime Minister Tony Blair, dogged by speculation about his future, faced a call for his resignation on Sunday by a senior member of his Labour Party.

Lord David Puttnam, a Labour peer and personal friend of Blair, said months of negative headlines about Iraq would damage the party's electoral prospects and the prime minister should make way for Chancellor Gordon Brown.

"The prime minister is synonymous with Iraq, and Iraq will only deliver bad news," Puttnam told ITV News television in an interview, the ITV Web site said.

"If I were him, I would go before the summer (parliamentary) recess," Puttnam said.

Blair's support for the war in Iraq, a U-turn on a referendum on a European Union constitution and an immigration policy widely seen as bungled have crushed public trust and prompted speculation that Brown will take over.

5281. wonkers2 - 5/11/2004 8:28:53 PM

According to articles in today's NYT, Rumsfeld's henchman, Stephen Cambone was a source of the pressure from the Pentagon that led to the atrocities at Abu Gharib and other military detention facilities. Moreover he has to an extent de facto usurped the role of Tenet as U.S. intelligence chief. At the yesterday's Senate hearing Cambone clashed with General Taguba over whether an order last November "effectively put the prison guards under the command of the intelligence unit" at Abu Gharib. Cambone said that Gen. Taguba misinterpreted the November order, which he said "only put the intelligence unit in charge of the prison facility not of the military police guards." That's a pretty fine distinction.

Anyway, Cambone is apparently one of the sources of the pressure which led to the atrocities in Iraq. I wonder if he owns stock in the company that supplies the black hoods and other paraphernalia?

5282. jexster - 5/11/2004 8:35:38 PM

No shit..they're about to blow the Neocons to kingdom come..

Cambone lied under oath yesterday when he disputed Gen. Taguba ..even Saxe Chambliss is about to jump ship...came out of the Bush Torture Chamber photo viewing thoroughly disgusted..

"What you've seen is nothing compared to what I just saw"

Cambone, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney all on the line on this one...

Of course, Bush is willfully stupid

5283. wonkers2 - 5/11/2004 8:44:52 PM

Another long NYT article detailed claims of abuses, including two or more deaths, of prisoners in Afghanistan which are strikingly similar to those that occurred in Iraq.

For example, Mr. Siddiqui said he was stripped naked and photographed in each of the three places he was held. Sometimes, as in Bagram, it appeared to be part of a detailed identification procedure.

There he was photographed full length, naked, from the front, back and two sides, he said. Something was inserted into his rectum during that procedure.

General Barno said that this may have been to search for hidden items, but that the practice of strip searches and fully naked identification photographs was being reviewed and changed. "We're concerned as well about the cultural impact of doing that." [The cultural impact in the U.S. no doubt. They were obviously doing it BECAUSE of the cultural impact in Afghanistan!]

More---American soldiers would throw stones and bottles at the detainees in the cages. It was like stoning monkeys at the zoo. They brought buckets of stones and were laughing as they did it.

Of course these were another "isolated incident" perpetrated by a small group of non-representative soldiers!

5284. wonkers2 - 5/11/2004 8:46:09 PM

The Bush administration is coming unraveled and it's showing up in the stock market--down again today 130 or thereabouts.

5285. jexster - 5/11/2004 8:48:48 PM

This is a world historical unraveling...

No doubt about it

5286. jexster - 5/11/2004 8:50:06 PM

The worst is yet to come...

Genital Torture For Dummies
Hey, it's a war -- what did you expect, flowers and bunnies and hopscotch in the Baghdad streets?

By Mark Morford

Just in time for your morning breakfast sausage, it's all-American rape and torture and rampant entirely condoned military sadism. Mmm, patriotism.

The pictures are worth a thousand disgusted moans. It's all flag-draped coffins and dog chains and forced masturbation and pistol whippings and miserable bloody hooded Iraqi men -- not terrorists, just men -- with wires attached to their fingers and genitals and made to stand up for hours and days on end until their feet swell and their lungs collapse and their livers fail, and you can hear our stunned death-drunk nation cry: Hey, whatever happened to our nice, clean little war? How did it get so ugly and out of hand? And isn't the "Frasier" finale on soon?

Isn't the nation just so very outraged -- outraged! -- over the nasty rogue's gallery of photos gushing forth from the stunned media of late -- (with frightening promises that the worst is yet to come), all those snickering U.S. Army guards and sickeningly abused Iraqi POWs and dead U.S. soldiers and scowling generals....

(click here to read the rest)

5287. jexster - 5/11/2004 8:58:04 PM

And there's BushCo blaming Rumsfeld and Rumsfeld blaming the military and the military blaming miserable 21-year-old female trailer-park scapegoats and once again there stands Dubya, looking angry and baffled, like a kid who just got grounded for getting another D on a spelling test.

Did you really think war would be all light spankings and fur-lined handcuffs and afternoon tea, George? All happy giggling soldiers blasting each other with squirt guns and playing jacks in the streets of Fallujah?

Did you really believe your second war in as many years would be all neat and tidy and bloodless and gift-wrapped and lacking in gruesomeness and bile and disfiguring genital mutilation? What are you, a puppet? Oh wait.

5288. jexster - 5/11/2004 8:58:27 PM

5261. bubbaette - 5/12/2004 11:50:51 AM

interesting. Whatever became of Sickles, Ronski, et al?

5289. jexster - 5/11/2004 9:03:56 PM

But let's not be too hard on the least articulate, least intellectual, least accountable president in U.S. history. After all, Dubya's just like much of America. He is the prefect embodiment of our world-famous myopia, a selective type of dangerous tunnel vision whereby if we don't see it and don't really feel it and the media doesn't splash it all over us, it must not be true.

And, really, what Bush-votin' flag-wavin' God-numbed patriot wants to hear that the U.S. is a world-class hypocrite, committing many of the same crimes

Cold hard truth is what happened to those bozos

5290. jexster - 5/11/2004 9:06:08 PM

And who wants to know that we have become the violent, unwanted clown on the global stage, justifiably ridiculed and thoroughly unsympathetic, as the world boos and hurls rotten foreign policies?

Who wants to know that we are, in short, losing the war?

5291. marjoribanks - 5/11/2004 9:08:52 PM

That FT article about Blair is interesting, and the move by Lord Putnam (the producer of movies like Chariots of Fire) something of a real blow.

If Blair were disheartened (and bloodied) enough to resign, it would be a huge blow to Bush's own election campaign.

For that reason, primarily, I think Blair will be very strongly urged to stick it out through November. Labour is in no danger of having to call elections before 2005, and even if Blair starts to feel like a lame duck he can pass the baton to Brown after the US campaign is over.

The wild card, and in this case one which favors Bush, is Brown's own behavior. Famously reticent, famously the back-rooms man, he has shown no inclination to push Blair out. If he changed his mind, Blair would be gone in a day.

5292. jexster - 5/11/2004 9:23:26 PM

Revolt in the LabOR Party doesn't favor either Bush or Blair...

Sharon the 800 pound gorilla of Bush foreign policy canceled his trip to the Armadillo Throne..

He did it because GWB is now an international paraiah

5293. jexster - 5/12/2004 2:30:57 AM

CNN Baghdad correspondent:

"Iraqi friends tell me 'We feel lost. Our country is in darkness and has no future'."

Someone give them the GWB Roadmap to the Village of Hope.

Ace you lurking?

Help the people

5294. Al D - 5/12/2004 4:21:47 AM

wonkers2
You know as much abut the stock market and economics as you do about everything else, almost nothing. If you are so sure that the market will tank due to Bush, put your money where your mouth is and sell short.

That's an open question at the moment. The only attributed quote I've seen to support this POV is from a defense attorney for the six charged. I tend to agree with you--the administration not going public with it as soon as it was known argues in favor of this reflecting policy, implicit or explicit.
Of course you liberals will keep telling the bullshit that the media broke the story of the horrible torture of those wonderful fellows in the prison, but it does not square with the facts. the Pentagon broke the story back in Jan., but since the media didn't have the interesting pictures they shined it on.

But all facts will be lost by the media presenting the story exactly as the DNC wants it. 60 Minutes will have a story every week slamming the Bush Administration.

Pelle
As an American I have great respest for your country and all you did to support us against the Nazis. there is little doubt that WWII could have been won without great fighters of your nation.

5295. jayackroyd - 5/12/2004 4:31:00 AM

Of course you liberals will keep telling the bullshit that the media broke the story of the horrible torture of those wonderful fellows in the prison, but it does not square with the facts.

Can you please provide a quote identifying these people as "wonderful fellows?" Are you saying that the photos were faked? Do you have evidence to refute the Red Cross assertion that 70 to 90 percent were arrested on false pretenses? What "facts" are you talking about?

All that aside, it's good to see you back, Al.

5296. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/12/2004 5:02:20 AM

5297. Al D - 5/12/2004 5:12:06 AM

I'm back on Kauai until Monday. We sold one of out codos, and had to come back to get our personal stuff sent to the mainland.

I think I misunderestimated your point by trying to cath up on the quick. My point is that the media did not break the story of mis-treatment of prisoners. And the Iraqs in question were not just your run of the mill kind of guys. they were the hard nuts to crack. They were mistreated, not tortured. Perhaps it would have been more humane to put them in an acid bath, or at least make them think it a possibility, because it may be true that shame is worth than death to an Iraq Muslim. So called honor of family is so important that sisters must be killed to protect family honor.

I am shipping many books back to the mainland, after giving 5 boxes to Salvation Army. Perhaps when I get orgainized, I'll list every book I've read on Arabs and Muslims. At the moment I have not concluded that Islam is just one of the world's greatest religions.

Must rush off for a dinner invite.

5298. jexster - 5/12/2004 8:35:25 AM

This from Reuters ...

New images of Iraqi prisoner abuse contain awful scenes of violence and sexual humiliation, members of Congress said after a viewing on Wednesday that one lawmaker likened to a descent into "the wings of hell."
...

"There were some awful scenes. It felt like you were descending into one of the wings of hell and sadly it was our own creation," said Sen. Richard Durbin, an Illinois Democrat. "And when you think of the sadism, the violence, the sexual humiliation, after a while you just turn away, you just can't take it any more."

Marshall

5299. jexster - 5/12/2004 8:39:49 AM

Nick Berg believed Bush.

Nick Berg died because he believed Bush lies.

Lies have consequences.

Take a Good Hard Look at the pictures that appeared in today's SF chron and seee EXACTLY what those consequences are.

"Stay the course."

Harry the Talking Bass told Georgie to tell us that.

5300. jexster - 5/12/2004 9:07:07 AM

Now where are those numbnutted cowards Pinched Dick Martin, PT109109 the LAW PROF, Caligula, AlD, ThomasD, EddieD....

Bring it on pond scum

I am here.

Lawmakers Shocked by New Images of Iraqi Prisoners

A fuckin sorry as crew of cowardly pond scum...and that includes fellow travelers...

Bring it on.

I am here

5301. jexster - 5/12/2004 9:07:37 AM

Piss ignorant little cowards

5302. jexster - 5/12/2004 9:25:18 AM

AFP: US Faces HUGE Loss of Credibility Across Middle East

5303. robertjayb - 5/12/2004 11:30:19 AM

Rummy in Iraq...tapdancing as fast as he can

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld arrived in the Iraqi capital Thursday on an unannounced visit aimed at calming the storm over abuse at Abu Ghraib prison and lifting the spirits of U.S. troops.

He was accompanied by Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and some of the Pentagon's most senior lawyers.

They planned to meet the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, and other senior commanders.

5304. uzmakk - 5/12/2004 11:31:28 AM

What is Kerry's current position on the war in Iraq? Is he still talking about sending in an additional 40,000 troops? Sorry if I seem a bit out of it, but I have smaller fish to fry.

5305. alistairConnor - 5/12/2004 12:03:05 PM

It strikes me that it's a bit unrealistic to expect much in the way of a plan from Kerry as candidate.

For example, ask him about Israel and he says sure, I strongly support Sharon just like Bush...

The question is, do you expect him to do a better job than Bush?

5306. Macnas - 5/12/2004 12:18:01 PM

Nice to see A1 D back!

5307. Macnas - 5/12/2004 12:19:58 PM

Jex, are you on crack or something?

5308. robertjayb - 5/12/2004 12:24:24 PM

Kerry at the moment is mostly viewing with alarm and calling for Rumsfeld's resignation. He has even suggested three possible replacements: John McCain, Carl Levin, and (God help us...) John Warner.

His recent ideas for Iraq include bringing in NATO (any volunteers?) for security and establishing a UN High Commissioner for administration.

For his troubles he is being accused by the bushies of politicizing the war. That they can do that straight-faced says quite a bit about their mindset.

5309. jexster - 5/12/2004 4:41:49 PM

Obe Juan Cole is playin Miss Smartie Pannts in his Negotiations Collapse amid Fierce Fighting in Karbala

"I don't care what Sufouk told them the Americans are most unwise to engage in major combat in Karbala so close to Husain's tomb. They make themselves look like Yazid.

If they, or whoever is reading this, don't know who Yazid is, then they have no business being in Iraq, much less in Karbala."

So is Yazid????

I haven't looked it up...dunno..wild guess...he killed Imam Ali by some treachery or maybe he fucked up with Brits back in 1920's

I have no idea but I don't belong in Karbala either.

I'd know if I toured....

5310. jexster - 5/12/2004 4:46:58 PM

The answer here...

With the Name of Allah, The Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer

The Memory of Karbala (Part II)

5311. jexster - 5/12/2004 4:49:02 PM

I don't belong in Iraq...do you?

5312. jexster - 5/12/2004 4:50:07 PM

WRONG Macnas..

That isn't AlD and my drug of choice these days ..Wild Turkey

5313. jexster - 5/12/2004 4:57:27 PM

That was Mildred the Wombat

This is AlD...and he's lyin through his dentures...

And the Iraqs in question were not just your run of the mill kind of guys. they were the hard nuts to crack

BULLSHIT ALERT...

According to the ICRC, 70% to 90% of the detainees in Iraq were there by mistake.

"We will never show weakness in the face of these people who have no soul."

April 19, 2004

Take it from the son of Harry the Talking Bass and Soul Man ...

AlD may not be too bright or very honest but at least he's got balls.

5314. jexster - 5/12/2004 5:00:14 PM

Double Bullshit alert..a few days after the above bloviation from the Cretin of the US, insurgents took control of Fallujah armed with brand new Kalashnikov rifles furnished by the US Marine Corps..

My corps
Your corps
Our corps
Marine Corps

5315. jexster - 5/12/2004 5:12:39 PM

The UN is about to bail on Our All Highest WarLord, Emperor and Nincompoop

UN: Election Law and Commission Must be in Place by 5/31

Hell turnover of a sovereignty that isn't sovereign to a sovereign that doesn't exist..

How fuckin Orwellian can we get here!

Ask Harry...

5316. wonkers2 - 5/12/2004 5:14:48 PM

Al D, good to see you back but sorry you didn't learn anything during your absence!

There is little doubt that Bush is bad for the market. First, because of his completely irresponsible cut taxes and spend like there's no tomorrow policy. And second because of how badly he has screwed up in Iraq and in dealing with terrorism.

5317. jexster - 5/12/2004 5:17:35 PM

and I join in big ALOHA and MAHALO myself!

I was gittin lonely

5318. jexster - 5/12/2004 5:18:28 PM

there's no tomorrow policy

Well said Wonk!

5319. wonkers2 - 5/12/2004 5:37:45 PM

Al, put this in your pipe and smoke it:

Bush's Tax Relief Charade--dangerous flaws in Bush tax policy Either middle-class Americans will find their supposed tax cuts gobbled up by the alternative tax or the deficit will be far larger than Bush's lying projections.

5320. jexster - 5/12/2004 5:56:30 PM

CIA:The War Is Unwinnable

Ray McGovern writes: "Even with 500,000 troops. But who will tell the president? Not the sycophants around him who parrot what he and Cheney want to hear. It is time for the president to widen his circle of advisers to include experienced specialists inoculated against charges of
lack of patriotism for questioning the wisdom of this war. President Lyndon Johnson did precisely that immediately after the countrywide Tet offensive in early 1968 in Vietnam. Johnson's panel of 'wise men' came up
with solid recommendations in three weeks during March 1968, prompting him to turn toward negotiations and refuse to run for another term. My colleagues and I are appalled at how few lessons have been assimilated from the experience of Vietnam. Most of us had a front-row seat in that misguided war and had hoped it would be the last such 'march of folly' in our lifetimes."

5321. Macnas - 5/12/2004 6:01:13 PM

Wild Turkey, you must have scrapped away your taste buds with a dull razor, that is one bad tasting drink.

5322. jexster - 5/12/2004 6:07:56 PM

The Energy Drink for the Politics of Joy

5323. marjoribanks - 5/12/2004 6:13:41 PM

I suspect that Jex don't need no likker to go hog-wild on us.

5324. jexster - 5/12/2004 6:33:22 PM

Just a depth charge'll do it...

Who WAS Yazid?

5325. jexster - 5/12/2004 6:37:16 PM

Cole:Iraqi Leaders want to See Karpinski in the Docket with Saddam

az-Zaman Iraqi political figures Wednesday condemned Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky, head of the Military Police in charge of prisoners at Abu Ghuraib prison last fall, as responsible for the abuse and torture of the inmates there. They called for her to be tried in the same docket with Saddam Hussein.

5326. marjoribanks - 5/12/2004 6:41:24 PM

Yazid

--

Actually, the Us has managed something quite significant.

It has gone charging into Karbala, smashed up half of a very important mosque, apparently killed dozens of Sadrites while taking zero casualties, AND struck a deal with Sistani to turn his head while they get rid of his impetuous and embarassing young ally. If Sistani chirps, all the above becomes very bad for America, but he has clearly been persuaded.

So, it's a pretty good day for Ambassador Bremer and his crew.

5327. jexster - 5/12/2004 7:01:24 PM

Kangaroo Court: Bush Withholding Evidence in Torture Case

5328. jexster - 5/12/2004 7:04:12 PM

Saddam couldn't crush the Sadrists, and Bremer won't either.

Why should Sistani get involved?

He can have his cake and eat Bremmer too..unless he loses control of the situation....

5329. jexster - 5/12/2004 7:06:17 PM

"US Failure Helps Revive the Old Pan-Islamic Project," Iraq: all together against the occupation
Le Monde Diplomatique
Juan Cole

5330. jexster - 5/12/2004 7:07:50 PM

Many people in the Ummah at that time who were already dissatisfied with the caliphate began to send letters to Imam Husayn urging him to join them in the city of Kufah in Iraq. They swore to defend him to the death and gave their allegiance to him. To investigate the situation, Imam Husayn sent his cousin, Muslim ibn Aqil to Kufah. After discussing the situation with the people of Kufah, he was killed and beheaded by supporters of Yazid on Wednesday, 9th of Dhul-Hijja, the Day of Arafat, in the year 60 A.H. (680).

It was the time of pilgrimage in Makkah, and Imam Husayn had begun to perform the pilgrimage rites. When he learned that some of Yazid's men had come dressed as pilgrims to kill him in Makkah, he gathered his people together to leave for Iraq. He did not want his blood to be spilled within the sacred precincts and to have the sacred rite of Hajj dishonored by that violence. Thus, he, some members of his family, and a group of followers set out towards Kufah on 8th of Dhul-Hijjah.

As the Imam approached Iraq, he was informed that many of the people who had voiced their support for him had turned and now supported the reign of Yazid, possibly to save their own lives. It was then that many of his representatives, including Muslim Ibn Aqil were abused and killed.

In the Name of Allah Beneficent and Merciful

5331. jexster - 5/12/2004 7:24:41 PM

Army Times Editorial: A Failure of Leadership at the Highest Levels

Around the halls of the Pentagon, a term of caustic derision has emerged for the enlisted soldiers at the heart of the furor over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal: the six morons who lost the war... But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons... while responsibility
begins with the six soldiers facing criminal charges, it extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership... From the moment they are captured, prisoners are hooded, shackled and isolated. The message to the
troops: Anything goes. In addition to the scores of prisoners who were humiliated and demeaned, at least 14 have died in custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army has ruled at least two of those homicides. This is not
the way a free people keeps its captives or wins the hearts and minds of a suspicious world.

Accountability here is essential -- even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war.

ReDefeat Bush.

5332. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/12/2004 8:01:33 PM

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

-Voltaire

5333. robertjayb - 5/12/2004 8:09:49 PM

Well hell, Wiz.

He's just a damn French person.

From old Europe; really, really old Europe.

5334. jexster - 5/12/2004 8:36:07 PM

Dumsfeld's over there and what in the hell is doing?

Another publicity stunt, that's what...screen in all the Bush blowhards they can scavenge from nearby units, get em all hootin 'n hollerin and then come home and bloviate about how anyone who criticizes the Imperium or the Obergruppenfuehrer is anti-American, anti-troops, anti-God, anti-military, pro-terrorist, Saddamite OBL blowboiz

Gimme another fuckin break..

Bush's War on Iraq has NEVER been about any reality other the reality of saving his sorry ass from defeat at the polls

And he is ripping the military apart and making our country into the planet's New Evil Empire with the blood of the innocent and the tax dollars of the duped to keep his job.

5335. PelleNilsson - 5/12/2004 8:40:17 PM

Rumsfield first underr-eacted and now he's over-reacting. Bad leadership. Nerve lost.

5336. jexster - 5/12/2004 9:08:35 PM

Keystone Kops!

Mosul PD Denies Detaining Berg

Bush: Ah din do it eyethur

Some defense lawyer gonna make these idiots piss their pants in about a week, two max.

Hell even Niner could do those imbeciles....(RIP, Rise in Glory)

5337. jexster - 5/12/2004 9:09:39 PM

HEY I had NOTHING to do with the Berg beheading.

NOTHING I SWEAR IT

I didn't even know who he was.

Ask the Mayor of the Village of Hope...He knows him

5338. jexster - 5/12/2004 9:10:49 PM

5339. thoughtful - 5/12/2004 10:11:09 PM

if western civilization is about believing in the rule of law and justice over barbarism, and if you believe the islamists are out to destroy western civilization, then abu graib racks up as a big notch in their belt, far more so than the twin towers.

5340. robertjayb - 5/12/2004 11:48:16 PM

WRT Berg, it seems the bushies have engaged their auto-lie mechanism.

5341. robertjayb - 5/13/2004 12:06:07 AM

Karl Rove asks that you update your lexicon...(New York Observer)

To All Concerned Parties: In light of recent events, I feel the need to clarify some of the language and "descriptive phraseology" we’ve been using in regard to the war on terrorism and our ongoing efforts in Iraq.

These are not to be interpreted as "non-negotiable edicts" (whose violation will result in your immediate reputation-tarnishing dismissal), but rather as "helpful suggestions."

Remember: The Patriot Act depends on you, acting patriotically.

So please update your lexicon of White House–approved media buzzwords immediately:

5342. judithathome - 5/13/2004 12:07:46 AM

How many special investigations would already be ongoing had Clinton been in office instead of Bush? How many calls for impeachment for ineptitude? After all, it would have been on his watch...how could that be tolerated?

5343. OhioSTOPAS - 5/13/2004 12:26:09 AM

Conservative blogger "Instapundit" relays a story:

"YOU KNOW, sometimes I feel like maybe I'm too harsh in my charges of media bias. Then I read accounts like this one from Baghdad, by the Daily Telegraph's correspondent Toby Harnden:

'The other day . . . I was accosted by an American magazine journalist of serious accomplishment and impeccable liberal credentials.

'She had been disturbed by my argument that Iraqis were better off than they had been under Saddam and I was now — there was no choice about this — going to have to justify my bizarre and dangerous views. I’ll spare you most of the details because you know the script — no WMD, no ‘imminent threat’ (though the point was to deal with Saddam before such a threat could emerge), a diversion from the hunt for bin Laden, enraging the Arab world. Etcetera.

'But then she came to the point. Not only had she ‘known’ the Iraq war would fail but she considered it essential that it did so because this would ensure that the ‘evil’ George W. Bush would no longer be running her country. Her editors back on the East Coast were giggling, she said, over what a disaster Iraq had turned out to be. . . .'

"Moral degeneracy, indeed. . . . To explain things in words of few syllables: It's wrong to root for your country's defeat. Especially when that defeat would mean the death of innocents. And surely it's worse still when it's merely for domestic political advantage."

5344. OhioSTOPAS - 5/13/2004 12:26:26 AM

Oh, please. The Daily Telegraph? The newspaper that for a while was making weekly finds of "top secret Iraqi documents" that confirmed the worst you could think of about Saddam Hussein and opponents of the Iraq war? Now it reports a candid admission of "giggling" by the liberal media elite over the death and destruction in Iraq. Yeah, sure.

However, Instapundit (law professor Glenn Reynolds), the supposed intellectual leader of conservative blogdom, believes this catty tale. Sure he does.

5345. jexster - 5/13/2004 3:11:35 AM

Berg in Bush Custody Before Kidnapping

WEST CHESTER, Pa. - Family members provided e-mails Thursday that say Nicholas Berg was held by the U.S. military before he was kidnapped and beheaded, but the government contends the messages were based on erroneous information.

Berg's family has called on the U.S. government to tell all it knows about its contacts with the 26-year-old businessman in the weeks before his body was found last weekend in Baghdad and a gruesome video that showed his beheading was posted on the Internet.

5346. jexster - 5/13/2004 4:33:27 AM

Les dessins du jour, Le Monde

5347. robertjayb - 5/13/2004 5:25:31 AM

A strong Maureen Dowd column...(NYTimes)

Testifying before the Senate yesterday, General Richard Myers admitted that we're checkmated in Iraq.

"There is no way to militarily lose in Iraq," he said, describing the generals' consensus. "There is also no way to militarily win in Iraq."

Talk about the sound of one hand clapping. And they say John Kerry is on both sides of issues.

5348. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:26:20 AM

Of course you liberals will keep telling the bullshit that the media broke the story of the horrible torture of those wonderful fellows in the prison, but it does not square with the facts...They were mistreated, not tortured

Liberal media eh Al?

The soldiers pulled seven Iraqi detainees from their cells, "tossed them in the middle of the floor" and then one soldier ran across the room and lunged into the pile of detainees, according to sworn statements given to investigators by one of the soldiers now charged with abuse. He did it again, jumping into the group like it was a pile of autumn leaves, and another soldier called for others to join in.
The detainees were ordered to strip and masturbate, their heads covered with plastic sandbags. One soldier stomped on their fingers and toes.
"Graner put the detainee's head into a cradle position with Graner's arm, and Graner punched the detainee with a lot of force, in the temple," Specialist Jeremy C. Sivits said in his statements to investigators, referring to another soldier charged, Specialist Charles A. Graner Jr. "Graner punched the detainee with a closed fist so hard in the temple that it knocked the detainee unconscious."
"He was joking, laughing," Specialist Sivits said. "Like he was enjoying it." "He went over to the pile of detainees that were still clothed and he put his knees on them and had his picture taken," Specialist Sivits said. "I took this photo."
"What we saw is appalling," the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, R- Tenn., told reporters
Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., said he was particularly offended by a photograph in which "a prisoner was sodomizing himself" with a banana
Among the most shocking images, several said, was a video clip of a male detainee repeatedly banging into a cell door until he collapsed

5349. arkymalarky - 5/13/2004 6:03:17 AM

But Tom DeLay said people are overreacting.

5350. jexster - 5/13/2004 7:47:42 AM

and Tom DeLay may be indicted...who cares about Tom DeLay?

From the CD "The Poetry of Donald Rumsfeld"
Rumsfeld Song
Dial-up
Broadband

The Unknown

As we know,

There are known knowns.

There are things we know we know.

We also know

There are known unknowns.

That is to say

We know there are some things

We do not know.

But there are also unknown unknowns,

The ones we don't know

We don't know.

5351. jexster - 5/13/2004 8:12:32 AM

These things we know...

BleatingBloviatingBlowhards of BushWorld..on Hillbilly Heroin...

Only Allah knows what ALD and TomD know..

But who the fuck cares about the lunatic fringe anyway?

They haven't the guts to defend themselves..

So why should we have the time for them?

5352. jexster - 5/13/2004 8:20:03 AM

Known knowns: Bush's America IS what's wrong with this world

the reactions were raw.

"Hard on the stomach lining," said Sen. Ron Wyden (news, bio, voting record), D-Ore.
"Disgusting," said Sen. Joe Lieberman (news - web sites), D-Conn.
"Horrible," added Sen. Lincoln Chafee (news, bio, voting record), R-R.I
Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (news, bio, voting record), R-Colo., said that during the screening, he turned to Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (news, bio, voting record), R-Texas, and told her, expressing disgust: "These people are not members of my Army"
"I saw things that made me sick," said Rep. Zoe Lofgren (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif.
In one photo, an unidentified young woman in a U.S. military uniform was crouched down "almost head to head" with a corpse -- "smiling," Campbell said. Another photo showed a U.S. soldier flashing a thumbs-up next to a body bag.
One photo depicted an Iraqi woman undressed to the waist, while another showed a woman lifting her shirt up. "They were not smiling, believe me," Campbell said.

So I wait with bated breath Al to hear all about all that you have read about Moslems...and your considered opinion of the Moslem religion.

There are things we don't know we know....

Enlighten us, you lying, dimwitted, aged, vile, bigoted, puss bucket and pissant patriot

5353. jexster - 5/13/2004 8:47:42 AM

The Glorious "Mighty Legions of the Moron Emperor"....

Another sad joke..a quagmire of death..and our troops are stuck in his pit of lies...

The US an international outlaw

reader drew my attention to a Washington Post article reporting on a newly released poll about Muqtada:

" In the poll, which was taken just before the April uprising of the militia led by radical Shiite Muslim cleric Moqtada Sadr, a large proportion of Iraqis from the central and southern parts of the country said they backed him, with 45 percent of those in Baghdad saying they support him, and 67 percent in Basra. Those numbers are striking because the U.S. military and the occupation authority have declared Sadr a public enemy whom they want to kill or capture.

I am surprised by the high numbers in Basra, where I think the rival al-Fudala branch of Sadrism is more important. The level of support for Muqtada has almost certainly increased greatly since late March when the poll was done.

My own view is that Muqtada has now won politically and morally. He keeps throwing Abu Ghuraib in the faces of the Americans. He had his men take refuge in Najaf and Karbala because he knew only two outcomes were possible. Either the Americans would back off and cease trying to destroy him, out of fear of fighting in the holy cities and alienating the Shiites. Or they would come in after Muqtada and his militia, in which case the Americans would probably turn the Shiites in general against themselves. The latter is now happening.

The Americans will be left with a handful of ambitious collaborators at the top, but the masses won't be with them. And in Iraq, unlike the US, the masses matter. The US political elite is used to being able to discount American urban ghettos as politically a cipher. What they don't realize is that in third world countries the urban poor are a key political actor and resource...
by Juan Cole

5354. wonkers2 - 5/13/2004 2:06:00 PM

The Rumsfeld Song is clever. Who did it?

5355. jayackroyd - 5/13/2004 2:30:26 PM

Political Animal, (nee Calpundit) from Wednesday, referring to Tom Friedman's piece that concedes that Bush is just not interested in anything except re-election:

For all I that I occasionally make fun of Friedman for his yo-yo mood swings and bizarre metaphor-challenged prose, I have to say that I sympathize with him here. As much as I've always despised Bush for his party-über-alles approach to the presidency, I too spent most of 2002 figuring that even he would put politics on hold and put the country first when it came to war.

But he didn't. It was basically just an election gimmick to him, a club to whack Democrats with, and it's so hard to conceive of an American president treating a war this cynically that I can understand why Friedman took so long to admit it to himself. Hell, even I still have moments where I just shake my head and think that I must be wrong. No one could be that callow, that vindictive, that shortsighted.

But George Bush is. After 9/11 he had a chance to make the war on terror into a bipartisan cause but he didn't take it. What's worse, it's not that he tried and did a bad job of it, but that he deliberately decided to make terrorism as divisive an (sic) wedge issue as he possibly could. By doing that he has set the anti-terrorist cause back by years.

He truly is a disgrace to the Republican party.

5356. Wombat - 5/13/2004 4:00:59 PM

Anyone who attempts to claim that mistreatment of the Iraqi detainees resembles fraternity hazing should be subjected to it. I have visions Rush Limbaugh being hauled off, stripped, forced to masturbate, having dogs set on him, hooded with a urine-soaked bag, and being sodomized. Then pictures of him are circulated world-wide.

5357. jexster - 5/13/2004 4:37:01 PM

We had some devilish things for our pledges to do but nothin like that...not even close..we didn't even THINK of such shit and I hate to have to admit those were the OLD days ...

The spin that its frat hazing is ridiculous on its face.

Even more if you were a frat member

5358. jexster - 5/13/2004 4:37:57 PM

Rumsfeld wrote the lyrics..look in AP thread..some guys in SF where else?

5359. jexster - 5/13/2004 4:38:28 PM

Its TOGA TOGA in Fallujah

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - The Iraqi general leading a force that controls Falluja said he had no plans to disarm insurgents, defying demands by U.S. commanders who appointed him and raising tension with Marines encircling the restive city.

5360. jexster - 5/13/2004 4:47:43 PM

Turn Over of Sovereignty that Isn't to a Sovereign That Doesn't Exist, Imperiled

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Just six weeks from the Bush administration's deadline to hand power to a nominally sovereign Iraqi government, the shape of that government is far from clear, with bitter infighting over its membership and powers

5361. thoughtful - 5/13/2004 5:07:57 PM

frat hazing? Beyond the fact that, as far as i know and i don't know much, frat hazing doesn't involve attack dogs and beating pledges unconscious, but the key issue with frat hazing is that IT'S VOLUNTARY! Those who choose to submit to humiliation do so so that they can join a club! They always have the option of quitting. Does rush really think these iraqi prisoners had any choice in these matters?

And as far as this nonsense about the outrage over the outrage and why isn't there any outrage for nick berg. Well, first of all, there is outrage for nick berg. But secondly, the outrage is over the fact that this torture scandal is just more evidence that all of the reasons for going into iraq were lies (ex oil). That the many promises the pres made to the iraqi people, the un, the people around the world observing US actions and the american people about why we are attacking iraq have ALL PROVED FALSE. We have not even shut down the torture chambers! However, we have managed to open the iraqi doors to more al qaeda than hussein did. The outrage is over the fact that, even for those of us who thought attacking iraq was unnecessary, the fact that we are there means there can only be one favorable outcome...bringing stable government to these people. That becomes all the more impossible, beyond the total mismanagement of the current effort, because this gives such potent ammunition to the enemy. And it makes life for the troops who are in iraq all that more difficult when they try to convince iraqis that they are there to help, not hurt.

5362. thoughtful - 5/13/2004 5:14:34 PM

cont'd
The order of magnitude is very asymetric. I don't think it's news to anyone in the world that al qaeda members are bloody murderers, especially, though not exclusively, of americans. However it is news to the world that the US govt which brought freedom to so many in so many wars, that worked for peace and prosperity by promoting organizations such as the IMF, the Marshall Plan, and the UN, that so carefully insisted upon the rule of law during the nuremberg trials, that was one of the original signers of the Geneva Convention Treaty has changed so much as to engage in empire building, pre-emptive war, and even so outrageously violate and ignore the geneva convention and the international red cross...until it is politically expedient to pay attention to it!

This admin's actions have not been of the kind that have historically earned the respect of others around the world. This admin's actions have not been conservative in any definition of the word. This admin's actions have not been of the sort that I could ever consider moral. This admin's actions will only be stopped by election or term limits. Let's hope the former rather than the latter.

Most interesting to see if Colin Powell, who I understand is now taking the lead on Iraq, will be able to heal any of the damage inflicted by this admin. While I fervently hope he will, as long as the rest of the bunch are still in power, I fear he will be as marginalized as ever.

Please, please, please, let some rationality dawn on this administration!

5363. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:19:42 PM

Al, I know you've said you wanted to form an Old Folks Liberation Brigade and were thinking about heading to Iraq to kick some Moslem butt.

PLEASE reconsider. Remember what happend to Mr. Berg.

I realize you worship at the Altar of the Cretin but would you die for his sins?

5364. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:21:52 PM

5365. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:42:40 PM

Known, Knowns: A War Lost, Trust Busted

Before we turn our attention to Tuesday’s reactionary and indicative-of-utter-ignorance comments made on Capitol Hill by Senator James Inhofe, let’s first revisit Sunday’s Washington Post. Under the headline "Dissension Grows In Senior Ranks On War Strategy; U.S. May Be Winning Battles in Iraq But Losing the War, Some Officers Say," a number of career Army officers -- including the commander of the 82nd Airborne Division and the Coalition Provisional Authority’s first director of planning -- said that in strategic terms, the U.S. military has made a mess of things in Iraq, and perhaps fatally so.

The willingness of such prominent military officials to go on record may be surprising, as was the Post’s finally reporting that the officer corps thinks Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz are a couple of dafties who’ve been allowed to flail about for far too long in the sandbox they call the Pentagon and need a permanent time-out. But the reality of career military people sounding the alarm on likely strategic disaster is not. In the days before and after the United States charged into Iraq, there were no lack of articles and studies produced by the military’s own war colleges and scholarly journals that have highlighted the perils of poor strategic planning -- and strategic wishful thinking -- in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

5366. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:44:29 PM

But whatever parallel one chooses to draw, when discussing strategy, there’s one element that, as both Carl von Clausewitz and St. Augustine held, remains constant: the matter of moral authority.

In the more buoyant moments of "major combat operations" last year, many commentators -- and even some officers -- cited the quick besting of the Iraqi army as the quintessential application of maneuver-warfare theories developed by the late Colonel John Boyd, a maverick military reformer. But as Boyd’s more savvy associates and students noted at the time, it was both perilous and premature to equate the possible success of some of Boyd’s more tactical ideas as vital to "winning the war," because the thrust of Boyd’s work was on the importance of strategy

Where HAVE we heard this before?

5367. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:49:27 PM

What are the necessary conditions for to justly go to war?
Catechism:
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

Who determines if these conditions are met?
Catechism:

2309 (continued) The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

5368. jexster - 5/13/2004 5:50:16 PM

0 for 5...the results speak for themselves

5369. jexster - 5/13/2004 6:37:25 PM

Like Boyd, Pierce, currently director of the U.S. Naval Academy’s Center for the Study of Professional Military Ethics, also emphasizes the importance of moral authority in warfare and notes that the many criteria that define St. Augustine’s concept of a “just war” should be central to all strategic thinking. Among those is the idea of proportionality, or the standard that the damage done in the course of war must not outweigh the overall good a war would achieve. But as Pierce notes, in the Augstinian equation, meeting the standard of proportionality is arrived at not by focusing on the obvious righteousness of the potential good. Rather, as he noted in a 2002 lecture at the University of California, Berkeley, "Proportionality drives the statesman to make reasonable, conscientious, and prudent calculations, and not to use rose-colored glasses in the attempt, and not to succumb to the temptations of overly optimistic assumptions and scenarios

Even as Cheney gives another speech today, repeating the same worn nostrums, tired bromides, and retreaded lies, he gives us all, opponents & proponents of this failed, bloody bungle a chance to listen with NEW ears...

Thanks DickHead

5370. thoughtful - 5/13/2004 6:56:32 PM

From NYtimes web site, All prisoners under U.S. control will have been moved out of the old prison building by the end of the month, and a new complex of outdoor camps will be built.

Hello!!!! Do they think it was the building that tortured the prisoners?!?! Is there no one with any sense in this administration?

5371. jexster - 5/13/2004 7:44:11 PM

Al..the Jason Vest article quotes a soldier in Iraq as saying that he wants Sen. Inhofe prosecuted for giving aid and comfort to the enemy...

My mosque won't give you refuge...try the Naapali Coast...

Run for your life

LAT: Guard Recounts Harrowing Tale of Torture
Bush Refuses to Denounce Torture Proponents
Media Matters Limbaugh Ad
Michael Savage: "I commend" prisoner abuse; "we need more"

"[T]ake their deepest fear, the pig, the dog, the woman with the leash, and use it on them to break them!"

"Use ... [l]ittle, ugly women. And let 'em take big strapping Iraqis and put 'em on leashes naked."

"Instead of putting joysticks, I would have liked to have seen dynamite put in their orifices."

5372. PelleNilsson - 5/13/2004 7:47:23 PM

You whining leftist so called "intellectuals". What's wrong with our brave soldiers having a bit of fun with the murderous terrorist scumbags who perpetrated 911 and threaten our American homeland every minute of the day?

You are no more than disgusting defaitist swine.

5373. PelleNilsson - 5/13/2004 7:49:42 PM

Insert 'traitorious' in last line.

5374. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/13/2004 8:28:12 PM

5375. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/13/2004 8:29:41 PM

Oopps!

5376. jexster - 5/13/2004 10:47:51 PM

AceOfSpades WARNING..

Mister Ed the talking horse is now impersonating a swede!

5377. jexster - 5/13/2004 10:48:34 PM

The phrase is "self ashamed elites" - the one's who have taken over Europe

5378. robertjayb - 5/13/2004 11:18:43 PM

Riverbend reviews recent days...

I was sick to my stomach when I first saw the video (Berg execution) on some news channel and stood petrified, watching the screen and praying that they wouldn't show it whole because for some reason, I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I feel horrible. Was I shocked? Was I surprised? Hardly. We've been expecting this since the first pictures of the torture of Iraqi prisoners broke out. There's a certain rage in many people that is frightening. There's a certain hunger and need for revenge that lame apologies from Bush and surprise visits from Rumsfeld won't appease.

I think beheading was the chosen method of 'execution' because the group wanted to shock Americans and westerners in the worst possible way. The torturers at Abu Ghraib and other prisons chose sexual degradation because they knew that nothing would hurt and appall Iraqis and Muslims more than those horrible, sadistic acts. To Iraqis, death is infinitely better than being raped or sexually abused. There are things worse than death itself and those pictures portrayed them.
.................................................

The assumption that Al Zarqawi himself was doing the beheading seems a little far-fetched. So now the heads of terrorism in the world seem to be Ossama Bin Ladin, Aimen Al Dhawahiri and Abu Mussa'ab Al Zarqawi. Here's some food for thought- Ossama is from Saudi Arabia, Al Dhawahiri is Egyptian and Al Zarqawi is Jordanian. Which countries in the region are America's best allies? Let's see now… did you guess Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt?! Fantastic! You win a trip to… Falloojeh!! (And no- it doesn't count if you give Saudi Arabia a little slap on the wrists and poke Egypt in the ribs- you're still buddies).

5379. jexster - 5/13/2004 11:23:44 PM

Bremer hints at US pullout from Iraq

The US overseer for Iraq, Paul Bremer, has aired the possibility of an American pullout from the country, saying the United States did not stay where it was "not welcome".

"If the provisional government asks us to leave we will leave," he said, referring to a post 30 June administration after the handover of sovereignty.

"I don't think that will happen but obviously we don't stay in countries where we're not welcome," he said at a working lunch in Baghdad with Iraqi officials from Diyala province.

"The CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) dissolves on 30 June. Does that mean that the United States is going away? Absolutely not," he said.

Is that doubletalk or what?

Maybe that's why Bush is so hard up with the Base!

We're obviously not welcome in Iraq...so what's to figure out?

5380. robertjayb - 5/13/2004 11:39:06 PM

jexster,

Much less there than meets the eye/ear. Damn sensationalizing liberal media!

5381. arkymalarky - 5/13/2004 11:42:43 PM

I have visions Rush Limbaugh being hauled off, stripped, forced to masturbate, having dogs set on him, hooded with a urine-soaked bag, and being sodomized. Then pictures of him are circulated world-wide.

He and DeLay both. What kills me is DeLay (though I assume he hadn't even seen them) said that about the second wave of photos that Senators in both parties were so repulsed by.

5382. robertjayb - 5/13/2004 11:57:49 PM

Dubya not so tough on terror---whistle-ass nixes raids on Abu Musab Zarqwi (Political Animal)

...Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

Unlike Saddam, Zarqawi really was developing poisons such as ricin and cyanide for use in terrorist attacks in the West and elsewhere. But we hesitated to take action because destroying the Ansar al-Islam camps might have been inconvenient for George Bush's speechwriters.

Zarqawi has reportedly killed at least 700 people since then. But it might be many more. We will probably never know for sure how many people died at his hands because of George Bush's uncertainty in the face of danger.

5383. alistairConnor - 5/14/2004 12:01:30 AM

The "just war" theme is absolutely the key to the whole moral degradation deal.

Was there just cause for the war? Undoubtedly, and more than one. Had all other avenues been exhausted? By no means, far from it. Was there a reasonable prospect of success? Not in the configuration desired by Washington.

As a result, there was not a sound moral framework. There was undoubtedly, at all levels, even the highest, a naive boy-scoutish desire to do good; but also, at all levels, a complete, dogmatic moral certitude which was completely impervious to reality. A just war will inevitably have evil consequences too : misjudgements, excesses, failures; an unjust war gives much more scope for evil, because the barriers are already down.

Given that only the barest lip service was paid to notions of legality, that nobody was prepared to countenance the slightest interference by outside authorities (UN? Red Cross? fuck em) US troops had nothing but their own operating procedures, which turn out to have an insufficiently strong moral grounding -- how could it be otherwise? This was not a "just war", this was a revenge war.

Did Rumsfeld give orders that prisoners should be sexually humiliated etc? On balance, probably not... it wasn't necessary. Undoubtedly it was thought up by some intelligence theoretician, army or contracted, and everyone, from the lowest to the highest level, thought it was just dandy.

5384. alistairConnor - 5/14/2004 12:14:56 AM

The way the story is playing in Britain is telling.

The British intuitively understand the "just war" doctrine, and there was a huge controversy about the legality of the war.

A court ruling a couple of days ago has apparently established the right of Iraqis to prosecute the British army in British courts for abuses -- notably the wanton killing of civilians.

All this is central to why Blair will most likely be history in a couple of months -- I think he honestly believed that it would turn out to be a moral war, he staked his career on it, and his position is now quite untenable.

5385. robertjayb - 5/14/2004 12:56:30 AM

I think of Blair as a well-meaning dupe of the bushies. He placed too much confidence in the "special relationship" of the US and UK.

It may well be that in the aftermath of this disaster, brits will turn smartly to the EU and carry on quite well, thank you.

5386. OhioSTOPAS - 5/14/2004 1:08:27 AM

Robertjayb (5382): I don't know why the news stories these week about al-Zarqawi don't ALL mention the fact that we could have caught or killed this guy two years ago BUT CHOSE NOT TO.

Would mentioning that fact be "liberal bias"? Better not, then.

5387. robertjayb - 5/14/2004 1:31:37 AM

Ignorance or apathy?

Who knows? Who cares?

(sorry, going for the cheap grin..)

5388. wonkers2 - 5/14/2004 3:27:08 AM

Bremer hints at pull out--the cut and walk mode begins.

5389. jexster - 5/14/2004 4:07:22 AM

What people scoffed at, no doubt because I didn't explain it as clearly or dispassionately, as I might have or as Jason Vest did, is that the realist power approach to war and the just war doctrine are really two sides of the one coin.

Had Bush been the Christian he claimed and had rigorously considered his war through a just war prism, he would have concluded that the venture was strategically foolhardy as well as morally depraved.

But Bush was obsessed with his War Presidency, driven by hubris and lust for power and not anything else.

5390. jexster - 5/14/2004 6:06:49 AM

Powell: Puppet Unlikely to Tell Imbecile to Piss Up Rope

Good porch monkey

5391. jexster - 5/14/2004 3:57:01 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A major Iraqi newspaper urged Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Saturday to resign, joining the international outcry for him to step down over the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

5392. jexster - 5/14/2004 4:04:56 PM

Shrine of Ali Damaged;
Uprisings in some southern Cities

Heavy fighting continued Friday between US troops and the Mahdi army in downtown Najaf and Karbala. The dome of the shrine of Imam Ali in Najaf was disfigured by four bullet holes, news that inflamed passions against US troops. US helicopter gunships blasted ares inside the graveyard that is considered sacred ground by pious Shiites.

' [US statements] did little to assuage the anger of many Shiites in Najaf. By early evening, thousands gathered around the Imam Ali shrine to inspect the damage. Some shook their heads in disbelief. Others mumbled prayers. "The Americans had better leave Iraq after this," said Jassim Mohammed. Abu Zahraa al-Daraji, added: "The Americans have crossed a red line." '

There were also major Sadrist uprisings in other southern cities. The Sadrists appear to have taken over Nasiriyah, and to have trapped 10 Coalition staffers and 10 drivers. ' "It's an inferno," Maria Cuffaro, a journalist for Italy's state-run RAI network, said during a brief live report on Italian television late Friday. "We're all OK, if a bit shaken." '

5393. jayackroyd - 5/14/2004 4:05:41 PM

Are they planning to pull out? Check out the caveats in this statement:

CPA spokesman Dan Senor attempted to clarify:

At the Diyala event--meeting today, Ambassador Bremer addressed the issue of the role of coalition forces in Iraq post-June 30th. A number of you may have seen the wire stories. Just to reiterate our position, that coalition forces do technically have a legal right to remain in Iraq through the constitutional process, under U.N. Security Council Resolution 1511. However, we do not anticipate that being an issue because the U.S., to my knowledge, never stays--U.S. forces never stay in a foreign country in a situation like we would be staying in Iraq post-June 30th, if we are not wanted. This is, of course, a wild hypothetical because we anticipate a close partnership with the Iraqi interim government post-June 30th. The majority of Iraqis we deal with anticipate a close partnership. The Iraqi leaders anticipate a close partnership. We all agree that there will be a significant terror threat here post-June 30th, and the Iraqi Security Forces certainly will not be in a position to defend against that terror threat, and so there will be a need for U.S. forces. There seems to be a real consensus around that.

And then Powell and Bremer:

This afternoon, Colin Powell, whose State Department is taking over the Iraq portfolio from the Pentagon-created CPA come July 1, echoed Paul Bremer's statements on whether we would leave Iraq. In a press conference, Powell addressed the issue of withdrawal, saying, "Just to make sure I'm not ducking the hypothetical ... and causing any confusion, were this interim government to say to us, 'we really think we can handle this on our own; it would be better if you were to leave,' we would leave."

5394. jexster - 5/14/2004 4:10:34 PM

The End of the Empire: Bush Options Dwindle
Imperium "Groping for a way out"

5395. jayackroyd - 5/14/2004 4:13:28 PM

Bush is cratering in the polls. The entire calendar in Iraq has been set by election year politics, and is blowing up.

All his applause lines are gone--"the rape rooms and torture chambers" are the last to go. Even the guy who gets his news from Jay Leno has to know that things are going poorly.

He HAS to able to stand up and say, in September, a couple of miles from ground zero that he has freed the Iraqi people and made America more secure. Have they decided the only plausible way to do that is withdraw, and then blame the Iraqi people for not stepping up when the civil war ensues, and the strong man (no doubt CIA-funded) arises?

That runs the risk, of course, of reminding people that Bush doesn't believe, as "some do", that brown people can't create a democratic state. But, at this point, that may be their best option.

5396. jexster - 5/14/2004 4:24:15 PM

But check this out Jay..I missed it because I never watch NBC News...

The second news story that heaves more burdens on the president comes from an NBC News broadcast by Jim Miklaszewski on March 2. Apparently, Bush had three opportunities, long before the war, to destroy a terrorist camp in northern Iraq run by Abu Musab Zarqawi, the al-Qaida associate who recently cut off the head of Nicholas Berg. But the White House decided not to carry out the attack because, as the story puts it:

[T]he administration feared [that] destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

The implications of this are more shocking, in their way, than the news from Abu Ghraib. Bush promoted the invasion of Iraq as a vital battle in the war on terrorism, a continuation of our response to 9/11. Here was a chance to wipe out a high-ranking terrorist. And Bush didn't take advantage of it because doing so might also wipe out a rationale for invasion.

The story gets worse in its details

Now the fact that this is the first that I have heard of a major story on a major networks suggests that the deluge is so great that even horrible scandal like this cannot break through.

There can be no question but that Bush is crumbling but with him his empire and our position in the world....seriously fubar

5397. jexster - 5/14/2004 4:28:48 PM

Looks like Nick Berg's father may have been more right than anyone realized..

5398. OhioSTOPAS - 5/14/2004 4:33:32 PM

Jex: That story's been linked several times here in the Mote (first by Wonkers, I think), but it is not yet being referenced in major media. And I don't know why not. However, it's starting to get around: Paul Begala referred to it on "Crossfire" yesterday, and Fred Kaplan just mentioned it in "Slate."

Meanwhile:

President Shamelessly Repeats Discredited Claim of Saddam - al Qaeda Connection

"MEQUON, Wis. (Reuters) - President Bush on Friday blamed al Qaeda supporter Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for beheading American Nicholas Berg and cited him as an example of Saddam Hussein's "terrorist ties" before the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

"Bush's revival of accusations linking Saddam to terrorism comes as the president faces growing doubts among Americans over his Iraq policy.

"At a fund-raising lunch in Bridgeton, Missouri, Bush said Zarqawi was an example of the threat posed by the ousted Iraqi leader. "We knew he (Saddam) had terrorist ties. The person responsible for the Berg death, Zarqawi, was in and out of Baghdad prior to our arrival, for example," Bush said."

As shameless as Bush is, I don't think he would have the nerve to say this except in front of an audience who could be trusted not to ask him why we didn't get al-Zarqawi when we had the chance, i.e. Republican fund-raiser attendees or the Washington press.

5399. jayackroyd - 5/14/2004 4:34:42 PM

The link in 5394 is interesting. This kind of compromise, searching for the right balance between politically acceptable solutions in the short haul and the long haul, is, of course, what should have been going on from the beginning. An immense amount of time and opportunity has been wasted as one ploy or another was attempted to establish a puppet government, while maintaining the rhetoric of a free and democratic Iraq.

In fact, the administration's been lucky that al Sistani has seen that that rhetoric provides him with a pat hand, and that he just needs to be patient, and remind Iraqis, US citizens and the rest of the world of the US commitment to democracy. I'm sure they don't see it that way, but the establishment of a puppet would have been disastrous.

But now they're in a bind. Having put themselves in a position of having to actually come up with a workable solution, they've only been forced into it by a completely unrealistic (and self-imposed) deadline.

Or, at least, they haven't taken seriously the need to find a transitional solution that will actually work until too late. The result is almost certain to be the worst of all worlds--neither representative of the Iraqi people, nor terribly competent, nor in the Americans' short term interests.

5400. jayackroyd - 5/14/2004 4:38:58 PM

5398

The existence of the NBC story makes the president's recent breathtakingly brazen lie

We knew he (Saddam) had terrorist ties. The person responsible for the Berg death, Zarqawi, was in and out of Baghdad prior to our arrival, for example," Bush said

particularly jawdropping. Is he daring the media to run with the March NBC story in counterpoint?

It also calls into doubt the identification of the killer. How good was this intelligence, given that it was immediately used for political purposes? We have ample reason to doubt it.

5401. Wombat - 5/14/2004 5:18:52 PM

British mistreatment pictures were staged; Daily Mirror editor is fired.

5402. jexster - 5/14/2004 6:10:19 PM

Great Idea!

The entire war was staged too!

Not one damn thing that Bush or Mildred said was true..not one damn thing

5403. jexster - 5/15/2004 1:32:58 AM

The Toxic Bush
Scapegoat for Iraq - Israel Distancing Itself from BushHa'aretz

Ha'aretz:

"Israel is trying to distance itself from the war in Iraq, as if events there did not concern it...At the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem, there is concern about the strengthening of the opinion that America got itself into the mud only to help Israel in its endless war against the Arabs.

They are thinking about a quiet diplomatic effort to blur the connection between Iraq and Israel...The Israeli leadership was very enthusiastic about the striking of the American blow on an Arab state... Sharon even gave backing to the mistaken American and British intelligence assessments about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq...

But from the moment the wheel turned, and Iraq became a second Vietnam - a war without reason or purpose - the inevitable fallout from America's weakness has landed on Israel, its satellite in the region."

5404. jexster - 5/15/2004 2:09:41 AM

With
>Tom Friedman deserting and declaring for regime change in the US and the above from Haaretz, it is now a simple matter of connecting the dots....

Speaking of course of the all powerful IJC that Bush had counted on for his War Presidency and Election

Kaput.

Case closed.

5405. jexster - 5/15/2004 2:29:53 AM

Imperial Forces Bomb Holy Cities - Bush Lies and Incompetence Kill 5 More GI's

5406. jexster - 5/15/2004 2:32:11 AM

Name: Jason W. Moore
Rank: Lance Cpl.
Branch of Service: Marine Corps
Age: 21
Hometown: San Marcos
State: CA
Date of Death: 05/19/03

5407. jexster - 5/15/2004 2:36:52 AM

Our moral Waterloo

The claims of western values are mocked by Iraq and the rise of Asia

Martin Jacques- visiting fellow at the London School of Economics Asian Research Centre

5408. jexster - 5/15/2004 3:35:42 AM

5409. jayackroyd - 5/15/2004 4:21:16 AM

Seymour Hersh has the goods. The interrogation program was a black program with a small number of participants with blanket authority to interrogate and act on the results of interrogations, in Afghanistan, in pursuit of al Qaeda targets. Cambone expanded it to Iraq, with Rumsfeld's approval.

Scumbags, and idiots to boot.

5410. jayackroyd - 5/15/2004 4:22:02 AM

The former intelligence official made it clear that he was not alleging that Rumsfeld or General Myers knew that atrocities were committed. But, he said, “it was their permission granted to do the sap, generically, and there was enough ambiguity, which permitted the abuses.”

This official went on, “The black guys”—those in the Pentagon’s secret program—“say we’ve got to accept the prosecution. They’re vaccinated from the reality.” The sap is still active, and “the United States is picking up guys for interrogation. The question is, how do they protect the quick-reaction force without blowing its cover?” The program was protected by the fact that no one on the outside was allowed to know of its existence. “If you even give a hint that you’re aware of a black program that you’re not read into, you lose your clearances,” the former official said. “Nobody will talk. So the only people left to prosecute are those who are undefended—the poor kids at the end of the food chain.”

The most vulnerable senior official is Cambone. “The Pentagon is trying now to protect Cambone, and doesn’t know how to do it,” the former intelligence official said.

5411. jayackroyd - 5/15/2004 4:22:17 AM

Last week, the government consultant, who has close ties to many conservatives, defended the Administration’s continued secrecy about the special-access program in Abu Ghraib. “Why keep it black?” the consultant asked. “Because the process is unpleasant. It’s like making sausage—you like the result but you don’t want to know how it was made. Also, you don’t want the Iraqi public, and the Arab world, to know. Remember, we went to Iraq to democratize the Middle East. The last thing you want to do is let the Arab world know how you treat Arab males in prison.”

The former intelligence official told me he feared that one of the disastrous effects of the prison-abuse scandal would be the undermining of legitimate operations in the war on terror, which had already suffered from the draining of resources into Iraq. He portrayed Abu Ghraib as “a tumor” on the war on terror. He said, “As long as it’s benign and contained, the Pentagon can deal with the photo crisis without jeopardizing the secret program. As soon as it begins to grow, with nobody to diagnose it—it becomes a malignant tumor.”

5412. jexster - 5/15/2004 5:06:45 AM

Cambone - perjury
Rumsfeld - impeachment
Cheney - Indictment - Unlawful disclosure of CIA agent ID
Bush - Crawford

Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Cambone, Perle, Rumsfeld - War Crimes Trials

5413. jexster - 5/15/2004 5:22:54 AM

Mildred the Wombat - Read Harry Potter books instead..

Al-Muhammadawi Slams Bremer

BBC world monitoring summarizes headlines in

Al-Shira' [Baghdad, independent political daily]: Bloody fighting rages in Al-Najaf, Karbala as Al-Najaf truce agreement is rejected by occupying forces \… Shaykh Karim al-Muhammadawi lashes forcefully at US intransigence, describing Bremer as extremist \… Al-Zubayd tribe chieftain: "Al-Hawzah [religious seminary in Al-Najaf] is Iraq's brain and we are its strong arm."

This snippet doesn't make clear that Abdul Karim Mahoud al-Muhammadawi, the leader of the Iraqi Hizbullah (which organizes southern Marsh Arabs) blames Paul Bremer for refusing to compromise with Muqtada al-Sadr, and has come to consider Bremer an "extremist" and an obstacle to social peace in Iraq. Al-Muhammadawi last summer expressed firm support for the US, and served on the Interim Governing Council until early April, when he suspended his membership in protest against heavy-handed US tactics. But al-Muhammadawi has cultivated a lot of insider sources, and if he is fingering Bremer as the problem, that is credible. Bremer in turn is now taking his orders from Robert Blackwill and Condi Rice, which is to say, from George W. Bush. So I think we know who the real extremist is. And, al-Muhammadawi knows an extremist when he sees one.

It deeply worries me that Bremer/Bush is so deeply alienating even Shiite allies. It isn't as if they had a lot of Sunni ones. And, the US cannot maintain a strong position in Iraq merely on the basis of its relationship to the Kurds.

posted by Juan at 5/15/2004 03:07:21 PM

5414. jexster - 5/15/2004 6:09:55 AM

Jay did you notice how many times unidentified CIA sources were mentioned in that article?

We haven't seen anything yet...

9/11 report

Plame Grand Jury

And God knows what else....if I were Bush, Cheney, Rummy et al..I'd be checkin my safe houses in fuckin Argentine

5415. jayackroyd - 5/15/2004 7:46:42 AM

Yes. This is a strong message to future administrations about fucking with the CIA's turf.

But I'm happy to say that the damage to the agency's black operational capability may be quite severe. And the reason they are so pissed is that Rumsfeld and Cambone compromised the existence of these programs--not just the 200 man interrogation/assassination teams, but the existence of the whole SAP thing. Hersh notes that the penalty for even hinting at the existence of these programs is loss of classification status. By pushing the operation out to amateurs, the administration has compromised the entire set of programs.

Which is, to my mind, a good. A friend of mine was faced with a difficult divorce--the old story: puts the husband through law school, has a young baby, buys a house and a car---and then he leaves her.

She had a hard time finding a lawyer who would agree to not seek alimony. As she put it, "What good is it to have principles, if when the time comes to adhere to them, you violate them?"

The US claims to do things the principled way, the hard way. Those claims are now completely hollow--and watching these senior officials trying to lie their ways out of it is a repulsive embarassment.

5416. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:02:30 AM

Damn right..not sayin the CIA are saints in all this..just rats looking out for their backsides...they have learned the hard way that if you try to play footsie with Georgie he'll take your toes and leave you a cripple. Unless you are a big campaign donor...Post has a nice one on that in the Sunday paper

Countless politicians and stakeholders have learned this..that's a big reason why he's having such problems now..that and his hubris

5417. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:03:45 AM

BAGHDAD — Amid the angry condemnations across America, Europe and much of the Arab world over the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, Iraqi voices have been, by and large, muted.

But the generally subdued response among mainstream Iraqis is a harsh indictment in its own right, Iraqi pollsters and outside experts say. To many Iraqis, the abuse of prisoners came as no surprise. To hear them tell it, the experience of the American occupation was already one of degradation, disappointment and discomfort, and despite months of steady complaints, few U.S. officials seemed to listen.

Saddoun Dulaimi, a pollster whose firm works with a number of U.S. contractors, is among those who said he forwarded information about mistaken arrests by American troops to the U.S.-led occupation authority.

"But I received no response," he said.

The widespread and increasing resentment toward the U.S. is reflected in polling results over the last several months. Support for the U.S. presence here eroded dramatically well before photographs of the Abu Ghraib prison abuses came to light, according to two reputable polling organizations, the Iraqi Center for Research and Strategic Studies and the Independent Institute for Research and Civil Society Studies.

Between October and April, the percentage of Iraqis viewing the United States as an occupier rather than a liberator or peacekeeper more than doubled — from 43% to 88%, according to Dulaimi's Center for Research. The Independent Institute had almost identical numbers for the same question

5418. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:05:33 AM

And if you don't want the Iraqi leadership to ask you to leave just make sure there's no Iraqi leadership to ask!

5419. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:12:30 AM

Adam W. Estep died April 29, 2004, when a grenade hit his patrol in Baghdad.

Age: 23 Hometown: Campbell, Calif.
Died: 04/29/2004
Service: Army Rank: Sgt.
Unit: 2nd Battalion, 5th Infantry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas

5420. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:33:39 AM

The New Gulag Archipelago:
BushWorld Comes to BAQUBA, Iraq, (AFP) - At the Camp War Horse detention centre in Baguba, north of Baghdad, it is a surreal scene: US soldiers handing out cash to freed prisoners along with a note saying "You have not been mistreated."

5421. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:57:20 AM

Dark victory
Why Bush's war in Iraq has damaged America's standing in the world and made us less safe.

By Jeffrey Record, Army War College

5422. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:16:08 AM

the Bush administration did not attack Iraq in 2003 for the purposes of liberating its people and demonstrating America's mastery of modern warfare. It went to war to remove what it asserted was a direct and imminent threat to U.S. security and to remake Iraq as a precursor to the Middle East's political transformation. It did so, moreover, over the objections of most of its friends and allies.

5423. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:16:22 AM

And lies have consquences:

-The U.S. war against Iraq in 2003 was not only unnecessary but also damaging to long-term U.S. political interests in the world.

It was unnecessary because Iraq posed no measure of danger to the United States justifying war. It was damaging because the preventive, unilateralist nature of the war alienated key friends and allies and weakened international institutions that have long served U.S. security interests and because of the evident lack of preparedness of the United States to deal with the predictable consequences of its forcible removal of Saddam Hussein

-Saddam Hussein posed no direct or imminent threat to the United States or U.S. interests in the Middle East because he lacked deliverable WMD and offensive conventional military capacity and was in any event effectively deterred from any form of external aggression by credible American threats.

-The primary explanation for war against Iraq is the Bush White House's post-9/11 embrace of the neoconservatives' ideology regarding U.S. military primacy, use of force, and the Middle East.

- Conflating Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda was a strategic mistake of the first order because it propelled the United States into an unnecessary war and weakened potential homeland defenses against terrorist attack.

-The U.S. attack on Iraq was a preventive war; as such, it was indistinguishable from aggression, alien to traditional values of American statecraft, and injurious to long-term U.S. security interests.

"Americans," wrote Francis Fukuyama on the first anniversary of 9/11, "are largely innocent of the fact that much of the rest of the world believes that it is American power, and not terrorists with weapons of mass destruction, that is destabilizing the world." If so, then the Bush doctrine and the war on Iraq can only reinforce that belief.

5424. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:24:32 AM

A favorite subject!

Two researchers at the U.S. Army War College have issued a report laying out what the comparisons are between the Vietnam war and the current war in Iraq..

Pdf..

Jeffrey Record, AWC Visiting Professor
W. Andrew Terrill, Middle East specialist Strategic Studies Institute, AWC

5425. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:50:34 AM

Somewhat off topic but no place else really to put it, the authors succinctly demolish the conservatives "stab-in-the-back" canard..they always seem to have one...Jews, commies, media...what ever close at hand...

Wonder who they'll blame in this one?
....makes this topical:

5426. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:50:52 AM

12
The conventional explanation for U.S. defeat is that it was selfinflicted by some combination of civilian intrusion on U.S. military operations, a hostile media, and a large domestic anti-war movement.

A key to understanding the outcome of the Vietnam War as well as the outcome of many other conflicts in which the objectively weaker side prevails over the stronger (e.g., the American War of Independence, the Spanish guerrilla against Napoleon, the French-Indochinese War, the Soviet war in Afghanistan) is asymmetry of stakes.23 If the Vietnamese confl ict was a limited war for the United States, it was a total war for the Vietnamese Communists; and if the United States curbed the employment of its military power in Indochina, it grossly underestimated the “fighting power” (as Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld has used the term24) of the Communists, especially their willingness to die.

Richard K. Betts comments on the effects of the “fundamental asymmetry on national interests” at stake in Vietnam: The Vietnamese Communists were fighting for their country as well as their principles, while the Americans had only
principles at stake--and as the antiwar case became steadily more persuasive, even those principles were discredited.

The only possibility for decisive victory for the United States lay in the complete obliteration of North Vietnam, an alternative unthinkably barbaric, unimaginably dangerous, and pointless. Hanoi bent but never broke because it preferred endless war to defeat; Washington bent and finally did break because the public preferred defeat to endless war.28

5427. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:53:17 AM

The asymmetry is the key point of comparison

5428. jexster - 5/15/2004 11:54:53 AM

Allahu akbar!

God ... asymmetry of principle!

5429. OhioSTOPAS - 5/15/2004 3:04:28 PM

Getting in line behind the administration's assessment of Donald Rumsfeld as the best Secretary of Defense ever is (oxymoron alert!) conservative scholar Victor Davis Hanson, who writes in this National Review article:

"American Cannibalism
We are doing to ourselves what the enemy could not.

"Have we any memory of a man in a suit and tie, nearly three years ago wading through the din and panic amid the morning rubble, assuring millions of stunned Americans that the national headquarters of their armed forces was still intact and capable of defending us after the mass murder of 3,000? ["still . . . capable of defending us? How much defending was accomplished that morning?] And have we no shame in recognizing that should some congressional critics and Washington harpies get their way, Americans will accomplish what bin Laden's suicide bombers could not on September 11: remove America's finest Secretary of Defense in a half century? [Only "in a half century"? Cheney said best EVER, Vic. Get with the program.]

"The idea that anyone would suggest that Donald Rumsfeld — and now Richard Meyers! [Uh, Mister Scholar, the general's last name is MYERS, not "Meyers"] — should step down, in the midst of a global war, for the excesses and criminality of a handful of miscreant guards and their lax immediate superiors . . . "

Thanks for clearing that up, Einstein. Only "IMMEDIATE" superiors had any fault here. Nothing to see here, people, move on.

I found this article, and its evisceration, at the blog Pandagon.

5430. jexster - 5/15/2004 4:25:57 PM

How you can stand to read that trash. Ohio I am not sure about you..consult a licensed mental professional...

GULAG USA: Climbing the Chain of Command

How high will it go?

Stayed tuned for the Next Episode of JAG "Lawyer for the Defense"

5431. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/15/2004 5:59:33 PM

5432. jexster - 5/15/2004 8:04:36 PM

Obe Juan Cole Gives Jexster an A In Bush Administration

Dr. Cole,

Regarding your recent post asserting that Sistani has undercut his political standing by standing out of Bush's fight with Sadr, an obvious question arises:

If Bush doesn't want the national leadership to ask him to leave, isn't the solution to make sure that there is no leadership around that can ask?

Divide and conquer is an ancient & venerable tactic.

Does this then create another opening for Chalabi?

Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jon Cole" Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: Divide and Conquer
To: "ME

Dear John:

Excellent questions!

cheers Juan

5433. jexster - 5/15/2004 8:20:37 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen killed three Iraqi women working for the U.S.-led coalition Sunday, while fighters in the southern stronghold of a radical cleric staged hit-and-run attacks on Italian troops and other coalition targets. A U.S. soldier died in a bomb blast.

Jorge A. Gonzalez was killed in combat March 23, 2003.

Age: 20 Hometown: Los Angeles
Died: 03/23/2003
Service: Marines Rank: Cpl.
Unit: 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, Camp Lejeune, N.C.

5434. jexster - 5/15/2004 8:23:56 PM

From the Gulag Archipelago

Abuse Brings Deaths of Captives Into Focu
At least 18 U.S. detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan died from apparent ill treatment or shootings.

WASHINGTON — An Afghan captive froze to death in a CIA-run lockup in Kabul in 2002 after he was doused with water and shackled overnight to a wall. The prisoner died, U.S. intelligence sources said, after Afghan guards apparently sought to punish him for being unruly.

At Iraq's Camp Bucca, a detainee was shot through the chest last year while throwing rocks at a guard tower. The Army ruled the killing a "justifiable shooting," but a Red Cross team that witnessed the incident at the facility in southern Iraq concluded that "at no point" did the prisoner pose a serious threat to guards.

5435. alistairConnor - 5/15/2004 9:59:33 PM

Hersh:
The former senior intelligence official blamed hubris for the Abu Ghraib disaster. “There’s nothing more exhilarating for a pissant Pentagon civilian than dealing with an important national security issue without dealing with military planners, who are always worried about risk,” he told me. “What could be more boring than needing the coöperation of logistical planners?” The only difficulty, the former official added, is that, “as soon as you enlarge the secret program beyond the oversight capability of experienced people, you lose control. We’ve never had a case where a special-access program went sour—and this goes back to the Cold War.”

The best Defense Secretary since -- oh, Caligula, at least.

5436. robertjayb - 5/15/2004 10:08:10 PM

Close the doors! They're coming in the windows!(USA Today)

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Iraq prisoner abuse scandal shifted on Sunday to the question of whether the Bush administration set up a legal foundation that opened the door for the mistreatment.

Within months of the Sept. 11 attacks, White House counsel Alberto Gonzales reportedly wrote President Bush a memo about the terrorism fight and prisoners' rights under the Geneva Conventions.

"In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions," Newsweek magazine reported. Secretary of State Colin Powell "hit the roof" when he read the memo, according to the account.

The White House did not immediately comment Sunday.

5437. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/15/2004 10:21:01 PM

I just watched the full video of Nick Berg's tragic decapitation and I'm convinced these men have killed whatever was human in themselves, long ago. It was right out of Goya's Horrors of War.

I'm also convinced now more than ever that the Bush Administration has to be held responsible for the good-hearted people who went to Iraq in the misguided belief that they could help build a democracy in this NeoCon induced snake pit of mayhem and hatred.

5438. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:24:10 PM

Company's cuming ...

I have a 4.0 in my MBA* courses.

Abu Ghraib leaks expose CIA-Pentagon schism
The Financial Times

*Master of Bush Administration

5439. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:25:11 PM

WAR PRESIDENT!
US Military Fears New Loss of Public Trust

5440. robertjayb - 5/15/2004 10:39:37 PM

"Failure to command," says former boss of MP Company...(Houston Chronicle)

Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, commander of the 800th MP Brigade, which ran the prison, has spent most of the past week on television telling the same story: that she never knew about this, that her MPs were working for military intelligence people, that she was not to blame. Had she spent as much time leading her troops as she apparently has preparing for appearances on MSNBC (with her lawyer in tow), the Army might have stemmed these incidents early on. I was taught in ROTC that a leader is responsible for what his or her unit does or fails to do. I was also taught that a leader takes responsibility for his or her soldiers. Either by commission or omission, Karpinski and her chain of command have failed those soldiers in her brigade and, ultimately, this country.
...............................................

...[But]...it is no defense for MPs to claim that they were only following orders, that they were instructed to "soften up" prisoners to enhance subsequent interrogations. While battlefield intelligence gleaned from interrogations may prove invaluable and can save American lives, no officer, no sergeant, has the authority to

direct a soldier to commit an atrocity or to violate the Geneva Conventions.*** While soldiers in a combat environment may face split-second decisions involving difficult moral choices, such was not the case here. We are confronted with picture after picture, story upon story, detailing systematic abuse and degradation by American MPs. We have a right to expect more from our military.

***These would be the quaint Geneva Conventions that Texas toady and white house aide Albert Gonzales cited in a memo to dubya.

5441. alistairConnor - 5/15/2004 10:52:28 PM

Hersh is a master. The charge is pretty devastating, the timing is good.

One wonders about the consequences of a mainstream establishment magazine speaking of the unspeakable -- blowing a "black" intelligence program?

5442. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:52:55 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (news - web sites) was wrong about Iraq (news - web sites)'s purported pre-war mobile biological weapons laboratories, a key part of the case about suspected weapons of mass destruction, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said on Sunday.

"I'm very concerned," he said in reply to a question on the NBC program "Meet the Press" about having used claims in a U.N. Security Council speech now known to have been "inaccurate and discredited."

"When I made that presentation in February 2003, it was based on the best information that the Central Intelligence Agency made available to me," he said.

Last month, Powell described the assertions he made about the purported labs as "the most dramatic" element of his Feb. 5, 2003, speech. He acknowledged on April 2 the information was suspect but stopped short of drawing any public conclusions.

In his comments on NBC, Powell went further.

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading. And for that, I am disappointed, and I regret it," he said.

As recently as January, Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) cited the discovery of two trucks as "conclusive" evidence of the mobile labs described by Powell. But CIA (news - web sites) Director George Tenet later told Congress he had warned Cheney not to be so categorical about the discovery.

A CIA spokesman declined comment.

5443. jexster - 5/15/2004 10:56:25 PM

I been thinkin about Hersh's timing AC..having seen him on a couple news interviews ...Don't you have the feelin he's sandbagging...

Leads to the question: What else does he have?

Leads to the question: Does Bush shit or go brown?

5444. robertjayb - 5/15/2004 11:39:25 PM

Here's the summary (Kevin Drum, Political Animal):

The Pentagon, of course, says it was just a few bad apples. They are the only ones who seem to believe this.

Hersh says abusive interrogation was the Pentagon's idea and CIA resisted.

Newsweek says the Pentagon and the CIA were on board, but the State Department resisted.

A variety of sources say it was the Pentagon's idea and the JAG corps resisted.

Time says the Pentagon ran the program and Congress was kept out of the loop even when they asked about it.

The bottom line seems to be that everyone is claiming they either didn't know what was going on or else did their best to fight the harsh interrogation program at Abu Ghraib, but lost out in the end to Pentagon zealots and the White House. Either this is true or else the entire city of Washington DC is in full-blown CYA mode. At this point it's hard to tell which.

Still, one thing at least seems to be clear: this was clearly the Pentagon's baby.

5445. jexster - 5/16/2004 12:18:41 AM

The Financial Times

Tony Blair is swept away in October. George W. Bush loses in November. President John Kerry and prime minister Gordon Brown rush to pull US and British troops out of an Iraq descending into civil war. The Saudi monarchy falls before the triumphant march of Islamist extremism. The oil price breaks through Dollars 60 a barrel and the world economy heads for stagflation. America's growing isolation in the world makes way for the return of American isolationism, globalisation for global protectionism.

None of the above is a prediction. I hesitate to characterise them as probabilities. But it is a measure of the perilously fragile nature of the international order that each and every doom-laden scenario somehow seems entirely plausible. ..

And beyond the inter-agency infighting is the growing feeling that the battle has already been lost. American voters are not prepared yet to admit that it was an outright mistake to depose Saddam Hussein. But the latest polls show a majority believe the war has not been worth the cost. The same message is carried by Mr Bush's declining ratings. Mr Kerry, it is often said, is an unimpressive opponent. That will matter not a jot if voters blame Mr Bush for taking them into the wrong war.

In Europe, too, you can hear the case for withdrawal: the US can now never recover its credibility in Iraq. With only 150,000 troops it is impossible to re-establish security in such a large, lawless and abundantly armed country. How long is the US prepared to stay? Surely it is better to get out soon before the situation gets much worse.

The neat way of putting this, of course, is to say that the Americans are now an obstacle to peace;

At this point I fall into the deepest gloom. .

5446. jexster - 5/16/2004 1:25:16 AM

The Evil Empire Crumbles
Sadr Goes From Fringe Radical to National Hero

5447. robertjayb - 5/16/2004 2:13:03 AM

al-Sadr forces drive Italians...

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Fighters loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr drove Italian forces from a base in the southern city of Nasiriyah on Sunday and attacked coalition headquarters there with grenade and mortar fire as tensions in the Shiite region escalated. Two U.S. soldiers died elsewhere.

5448. jexster - 5/16/2004 2:28:36 AM

Arabs Don't Buy Powell's Bullshit

I think Ohio may have isolated the last reservoir of credulity....The Unabashed Elites at the National Review

As Powell returned home, the forum's host King Abdullah II of Jordan told US television that he was concerned.

"To feel the anger and the rage that I see in the Middle East towards the United States really sort of frustrates and worries me tremendously," the US-educated King Abdullah told ABC television.

"The perception is that the United States is not fair and balanced on the core issue in the Middle East, which is the Israeli-Palestinian problem. Then you compound that with Iraq (news - web sites)," he said.

Jordanian Foreign Minister Marwan Moasher warned in an interview with CNN that the US standing in the Middle East had "never been lower" and his Egyptian counterpart Ahmed Maher told panelists here that Washington was "biased" towards Israel.

5449. jexster - 5/16/2004 2:36:14 AM

"Il Duce"
Believe, Obey, Fight!

"The function of a citizen and a soldier are inseparable."
- Benito Mussolini

5450. jexster - 5/16/2004 2:53:06 AM

Message # 5444

I've said it before, and can't say it too many times again for this is truly an unprecendented politico-military unraveling.

Unprecendented and irreversible, it found catalyst in Abu Ghraib but it began long before.

Bush's was a fall looking for a reason

5451. jexster - 5/16/2004 3:45:18 AM

SEOUL, South Korea - Washington wants to move some of the 37,000 U.S. troops stationed in South Korea (news - web sites) to Iraq (news - web sites), South Korean officials said Monday. "The U.S. government has told us that it needs to select some U.S. troops in South Korea and send them to Iraq to cope with the worsening situation in Iraq," said Kim Sook, head of the South Korean Foreign Ministry's North American Bureau.

5452. jexster - 5/16/2004 4:09:27 AM

Et tu Ahmed, then let fall Caesar!

Chalabi: Iraq, Not Bush Must Control Security

Scumbag First Class butt fucks Scumbag Second...drags around by a leash...

The two deserve each other.

The two deserve long prison sentences

5453. jexster - 5/16/2004 4:54:40 AM

Shades of Vietnamization..indeed the same basic dynamic (which I would be happy to explain)

Take my word for it...
Times of London: Bush/Blair Planning Fast Pullout of Iraq

LONDON, (AFP) - London and Washington are drawing up plans to pull coalition forces out of Iraq (news - web sites) "as soon as possible", a senior British source was quoted as saying in The Times.

"We are not about to cut and run. But the aim is to have a strategy which enables the Iraqis to take control as quickly as possible and allows us to leave as quickly, as soon as possible," the anonymous source told the influential daily paper.

The "gear change" has been agreed by London and Washington, according to the source.

Elsewhere The Times said that the deployment of additional British troops in Iraq was being delayed to avoid the impression that they were a direct replacement for Spanish troops who are withdrawing following a change of government in Madrid.

British Defence Minister Geoff Hoon said Sunday that there was no need to seek parliamentary approval for troop reinforcements.

"Clearly if the commanding officer on the ground says at very short notice we require extra troops because of some significant deterioration in the security it would irresponsible of me not to agree to that request and agree to it very promptly," Hoon said.

The defence minister dismissed a press report on Sunday that Britain may double its troop strength in Iraq, currently around 8,000.

"I simply do not know where reports that the UK presence could double have come from," he said.

Most British papers foresee an extra 2,000 British troops being sent to boost the coalition forces in Iraq

5454. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:11:41 AM

Connect the dots...Iran is preparing to pounce on the carcass that Bush made.

The Regis Debray scenario {don't worry Regis Requote Follows!) is coming to pass...

Damn sight faster than I thought.

Times like these I miss the Perfect BushWorlders..aah well cowardly bunch anyway..always were..always will be.

Juan Cole: Iran Strongly Condemns US Operations in Najaf, Karbala

Supreme Jurisprudent Ali Khamenei of Iran finally broke his silence about the US military operations in Najaf and Karbala on Sunday. I had presumed that his earlier caution was a function of his support for Sistani and al-Hakim versus Muqtada al-Sadr. But apparently the rage in Iran has reached the point where he felt he had at least to speak out.

"Addressing theological students, the Supreme Leader stressed that the world of Islam, in particular the Shiites along with the entire Iranian nation, will not tolerate the profanity committed by US military forces on Islam`s holy shrines in Iraqi cities. Denouncing the torture of Iraqi prisoners by US forces which have been exposed only recently, Ayatollah Khamenei referred to the US system as being an icon of hatred, oppression and indifference towards human dignity.

"Today, the US in Iraq and the occupying regime in Palestine are committing the most shameful acts in human history, the Supreme Leader stressed.

Iran can easily destabilize Iraq, and although this speech may be posturing, if it signals a policy shift it could be fateful.

5455. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:29:58 AM

Harpers Magazine, January 2004

THE INDISPENSABLE NATION

From "Americans, If You Only Knew," by Regis Debray, published in the September 5 Le Figaro. Translated from the French by Benjamin Storey and Donovan Hohn.

Judging by the results, as they say in the military, it appears that Paris had a clearer view of things in Baghdad than Washington did. In the New York Times of February 23, 2003, I allowed myself to predict-merely by reading the newspapers in the light of history books-that the American war was going to "provoke chaos instead of order, and hatred instead of gratitude," while giving "a formidable second chance to the partisans of Bin Laden." That was before the "victory," and at the time many a distressed reader dismissed these somber prognostications as "ideological." An out-of-touch arch-Gaullist such as myself, however, is not bound by the euphemisms of transatlantic modesty. "When one tells it like it is," De Gaulle once remarked, "it's a scandal. If one says that England is an island, no one blinks. If one says that NATO has an American commander, everyone is shocked:" To state the raw facts bluntly is a task, always thankless but never useless, reserved for those not in charge.

The Americans seem to have gotten themselves into an intractable mess in Iraq. They must now choose between a historical debacle if they hang on and a temporary setback if they let go.

"We cannot leave Iraq before it is stabilized," declared a former CIA officer. But to maintain a prolonged foreign occupation of Iraq is to destabilize it only further. Once the invader departs, there will no doubt be a civil war, which will accelerate the dismemberment of the nation, giving rise to a fundamentalist regime, which will make at least some people miss the era of Saddam.

5456. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:30:16 AM

On the other hand, if the occupation persists, one can foresee a multifaceted terrorist escalation eating away at U.S. forces and aggravating ethnic and religious divisions. The Americans will bring in reinforcements, including Fijians and Norwegians. They'll talk of the final fifteen minutes and of last gasps. A coup d'etat or uprising will be inspired in Teheran (terrain more favorable to the West than Iraq is) but with irritating repercussions in Najaf, which will be transformed into a base of retreat for vengeful ayatollahs. The Americans will cling to Iraq as "useful" and ensconce themselves inside supposedly unbreachable bastions. Then, as the death toll mounts by the hundreds, the "bring the boys home" movement will spread like an oil slick across the United States, and a new, Democratic administration will make the prudent decision to stop the hemorrhaging when the vital interests of the United States are not at stake. But how many lives will be ruined in the meantime?

The neocon cliches set the courageous, cleareyed inhabitants of Mars/America against the lofty, retiring souls of Venus/Europe. The for mer follow the hard principles of reality; the latter preach morality on the cheap. This distribution of roles reveals a case of imperial self-deception. The American leadership has come to believe in its dreamworld so completely that like some Alice in Horrorland, unable to escape from the mirror it mistakes its intellectual fantasies for practical measures.

It was lured down this rabbit hole by three magic words, fallacies disguised as self-evident truths. First, "terrorism".....

5457. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:45:54 AM

By aspiring to rule the little people of the world without taking into account their language, their religion, their memories in sum, all that makes them other than we might like the United States guarantees its own failure.

Muslim houses are searched with dogs, X-rated theaters are opened, and one of the principal administrators of the universities of the oldest country in the world is a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army. This deliberate blindness, which confuses the barbarous with the civilized and transforms the occupied into a video-game target, is the curse of all omnipotent sovereignties.

Disdain does not pay in the long run, but how does one get through to deaf men who can support their empty ideas with a formidable reserve of dollars, patents, arms, and an enviable patriotism? With power, there is no other argument than power...

5458. alistairConnor - 5/16/2004 9:26:44 AM

It's disheartening to see nations conforming to their stereotypes. The first notable manoeuvre of Italian troops in Iraq is ... a glorious retreat.

And as for the Americans...

5459. jexster - 5/16/2004 11:36:49 AM

Italians, Pushed out of Nasiriyah, Tell Bush to Back Off
10 Italian Troops Wounded, 20 Iraqis wounded, 2 Killed

The Italians and Chalabi are telling the Bush administration publicly what the British have been telling it privately for weeks. This Ahab-like fixation on getting Muqtada al-Sadr at all costs may well completely discredit the United States in Iraq, given the damage already done to the sanctity of the shrine cities. Can you imagine what the elections are going to look like this coming winter if they are held? Won't all the candidates in the Arab areas actually be running against the United States?

By the way, the Berlusconi government is not brighter or less arrogant than that of Bush. It is just that the Italians have a small, exposed force, and they know it is US policy that is endangering it, and they know that the policy grows out of unnecessary and adventurist goals.

5460. jexster - 5/16/2004 11:42:46 AM

David Patel, a Carnegie scholar who has lived in Iraq for two years writes

US Policies Have Left Sunni and Shia Religious Leaders in Control of Iraq
Religious Authority and Politics in Post-Saddam Iraq

5461. jexster - 5/16/2004 12:03:28 PM

Crude Oil= $41/bbl.

Record...

5462. alistairConnor - 5/16/2004 1:09:38 PM

And we all know how the Nasiria business will end up...

rather like the Falluja business.

Humiliating backdown and withdrawal.

The world's finest army, and a government which is incapable of choosing battles they can win.

5463. jexster - 5/16/2004 4:49:26 PM

Cole says he thinks that Bremmer has vetoed the idea which is in effect the arming of a militia.

WE FOUND SARIN: USED AGAINST US TROOPS IN EYE-RACK

No..this isn't from the Onion...the real world..an Iraq chock full o jihadists armed with Allah knows what...

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military said Monday an artillery shell exploded in Iraq (news - web sites) had released a small amount of the nerve agent sarin.

It was the first announcement of the discovery of any of the weapons on which Washington made its case for war.

Brigadier Gen. Mark Kimmitt told a news conference that the substance had been found in an artillery shell discovered by a U.S. convoy. The round exploded, causing a small release of the substance, he said.

5464. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:10:33 PM

Comment on author of Dark Victory, Dr. Jeff Record, US Army War College from a friend who knows him professionally..

Jeff is a brilliant analyst. I worked closely with him on a number of hard issues--Contras, Kurds in 1990. He was Sam Nunn's key guy.

Message # 5421

5465. jayackroyd - 5/16/2004 5:11:55 PM

It was the first announcement of the discovery of any of the weapons on which Washington made its case for war.

Actually, it's the latest of several announcements that so far have proved to be false. Now, of course, it's impossible to prove that these were in Iraq at the time of the war, and were not introduced by jihadists from outside.

It'll be funny; people pointing out how badly things are going in the war are frequently accused of rooting for bad news. This is undoubtedly bad news (although not all that bad--sarin is not an effective battlefield weapon). We'll see what the reaction is among Bush's supporters, joy or dread.

Morever their credibility is at such a low level, and the state of the war so poor, that one has to view this story skeptically.

5466. jayackroyd - 5/16/2004 5:13:04 PM

Cole says he thinks that Bremmer has vetoed the idea which is in effect the arming of a militia.

Everything that Bremmer has vetoed has nonetheless come to pass.

5467. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:15:35 PM

Who knows or really cares now...there are so many mujahadeen flockin to EyeRak...Hell Jordan claimed to have uncovered a huge chemical factory good to go in Amman just last month...

There may even be some cookers operating even now in EyeRak

Note the round exploded, "small amount released" very fishy as you say..

Big chain of custody problem here I fear.

5468. jayackroyd - 5/16/2004 5:21:08 PM

Now, of course, it's impossible to prove that these were in Iraq at the time of the war, and were not introduced by jihadists from outside.

I should have fleshed this out more. Now they've got an amusing problem. They've been emphasizing the role of outside jihadists in this resistance, although according to two news conferences with generals in the field that I have seen, they have not captured any. However, the more jihadists there are in country, the less likely the sarin originated in Iraq.

As well, by constantly conflating Iraq with terrorists, they are now going to have to contradict themselves when they say this was Saddam's sarin.

5469. jexster - 5/16/2004 6:37:09 PM

They are already back tracking..First reports seemed to suggest that the army detonated after discovery..Next wave..it exploded in an attack which now seems the case and of course Kimmit that Friday Follies Fairy Duster from the CPA tried to blame Saddam..Third Wave "Not so sure..under investigation"

SOP for all "discoveries" since Fox and the Jerusalem post inbeds reported on the Second day of the Bush war of aggression.

From Salon

Donald Rumsfeld, speaking to U.S. troops in Iraq. Meanwhile, Abu Ghraib detainees held up signs as Rumsfeld's convoy passed through, including one that read: "Help."

5470. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:42:50 PM

DAILY MAIL (London)
Haggis being served in the Good Life
IS BLAIR FACING THE FINAL COUNTDOWN?

BYLINE: GRAEME WILSON POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT -

TONY BLAIR was fighting for his political life last night after a close friend admitted he may not stay on beyond January.

The source said Mr Blair wanted to be in office for the 'important milestone' of that month's elections in Iraq.

The suggestion that the Premier could be counting down the months was a dramatic contrast to recent claims that he was determined to serve a full third term.

Mr Blair's vulnerability was graphically underlined when Downing Street was forced to wheel out a string of Cabinet heavyweights to back him in TV interviews.

Peter Hain, Geoff Hoon, Jack Straw and Alistair Darling joined the unprecedented campaign - but bookmakers still slashed the odds against Mr Blair quitting before the General Election expected next May.

VOTERS' TRUST SLIPPING AWAY

NEARLY half the electorate want Mr Blair to quit before the next General Election, a survey has revealed.

As a result, the Tories are on 37 per cent - three points ahead of Labour.

The YouGov poll found that 46 per cent believe Mr Blair should stand down. Three in five voters say they no longer trust him and believe he 'bends the truth'. One in three go further and say 'he is slippery and lies a lot'.

Support for the Iraq war is shrinking - only two in five voters now say it was the right thing to do.

5471. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:45:32 PM

Three weeks ago, we sniffed the odour of death on Tony Blair. Today, he reeks.The DAILY Murdoch !!.

5472. jexster - 5/16/2004 5:47:30 PM

THE PRIME MINISTER'S MORAL STANDING IS CRUMBLING BEYOND REPAIR

Tony Blair is in a hole. The Independent

5473. jayackroyd - 5/16/2004 9:20:55 PM

This is the "denial" of the Hersh report:

no basis in any sanctioned program, training manual, instruction or order in the Department of Defense from the DOD spokesperson.

Of course, that is no refutation of Hersh's claims. Hersh says it was originally a black program, extremely secret, limited to about 200 intelligence operatives. Of course it is not to be found in any program, manual, instruction or order that is available to the public. EWven the spokeman's confirming the existence of the program would be a violation of its deeply classified status.

In fact, the phrasing makes it clear that Hersh has the story right. This is now a Congressional matter. We have to hope that guys like McCain and Lugar are more concerned with the nation, the world and the Senate's role than they are with Bush's re-election.

I think it is the Church commission all over again. Before 9/11, and in the list of 9/11 excuses, you sometimes read or heard bleating from the CIA that their hands were tied by the limitiations that arose from the Church Commission. My response has always been that those limitations were imposed because the CIA behaved illegally and improperly. We've learned our lesson was the typical riposte.

Well, as night follows day, they haven't, and they won't.

5474. thoughtful - 5/16/2004 9:29:17 PM

I'm telling you....my little conspiracy theory that this is CIA payback for yellowcake and plame is looking all the more likely.

5475. robertjayb - 5/16/2004 9:44:59 PM

Good time for a little Sarin, don't you think?

See what the boys in the backroom can rustle up.

5476. jexster - 5/16/2004 9:45:38 PM

That's NOT YOUR THEORY..but you can use it. I grant you license.

5477. jexster - 5/16/2004 9:46:11 PM

5478. jexster - 5/16/2004 9:47:29 PM

a few days from now we'll hear it was fertilizer or possibly an old Iranian shell or possibly MADE IN USA..

5479. jexster - 5/16/2004 9:48:01 PM

correction...sarin is insecticide I believe

5480. jayackroyd - 5/16/2004 9:55:59 PM

Newsweek also has the story. It matches Hersh's.

5481. Magoseph - 5/16/2004 10:06:25 PM

5482. thoughtful - 5/16/2004 10:15:28 PM

Whaddya mean, not my theory? Of course it is.

5483. thoughtful - 5/16/2004 10:17:34 PM

See Message # 5110.

5484. jexster - 5/16/2004 11:36:59 PM

Long before that Thoughtful...sorry...

I will provide concrete evidence ...I will take too long to flip through three years of posts..been on this one since about August 2002 latest...

To Josh Marshall...

Now we know HOW Marshall came to validate my hypothesis that the CIA is out to Burn Bush...May Allah, the Benificient, Omnipotent, and Magnificent be with them.

His Name be praised!

As I said earlier this morning, here's the latest update from my friend in Iraq, a retired military intelligence officer, now working as a security contractor in Iraq ...

Hey Josh,
Sorry about the delay but I have been out on the streets more than usual these days despite the micro-Intifada in the South.

Let me answer your questions:

Q1. From on the ground, how would you rate the effects of Abu Ghraib on the population at large and on the morale of Iraqis who are at the moment working with us?

A1: Abu Ghuraib just confirmed what we have been hearing here for a long time. I am amazed that the ICRC didn't push this forcefully. It is very easy to find people who have been in the prison and could make statements to that effect. What I am sure amazed the ICRC was the callousness of the Bush administration blowing off eye-witness testimony of ICRC delegates in the prison. It had to be done with pictures and I applaud and honor the men who blew the whistle ... If I was the NCOIC of that place I would have been filing courts martial papers just to make sure it was indestructibly documented that things were going on ... Someone obviously did something official for General Taguba to be sent there.

The Iraqi people, even my 150 staff think the Americans are essentially not welcome anymore...

More soon.

-- Josh Marshall

5485. jexster - 5/16/2004 11:41:39 PM

Talking Points Memo Re: CIA Games?? Fri 02/06

not just considered it, but know it

josh

At 12:06 PM 2/6/2004, you wrote:

Mr. Marshall,

Have you ever considered that the CIA is involved in an inside/outside two front war on the White House???

I think that if you will review the chronology you will see a pattern....
Inside game - the Tenant Testimony, the Niger Yellowcake story, the Kay bombshell - in each case the CIA issued statements that appear loyal but in each case, the most credible, the most concrete, the headlined element damns Bush and the rest invites futher inquiry...

Then there's the outside game...you can get a good feel for that from Sid Blumenthal's piece in Salon

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/02/05/wmd/print.html

5486. jexster - 5/16/2004 11:41:50 PM

My take:

Here they go again...

Yesterday Tenant played the inside game "We never said there was an imminent threat", followed by carefully chosen words to make the CIA appear loyal.

But former agents continue to spill the beans...

When Bush insisted that Saddam was actively and urgently engaged in a nuclear weapons program and had renewed production of chemical weapons, the Defense Intelligence Agency denied the assertions. Bruce Hardcastle, defense intelligence officer for the Middle East, South Asia and Counterterrorism, "told them that the way they were handling evidence was wrong," Patrick Lang, former head of Human Intelligence at CIA, told me. The Bush administration response was not only to remove Hardcastle from his post. "They did away with his job. They wanted just liaison officers who were junior. They didn't want a senior intelligence person who argued with them. Hardcastle said, 'I couldn't deal with these people.' They are such ideologues that they knew what the outcome should be and they thought when they didn't get it from intelligence people they thought they were stupid. They start with an almost pseudo-religious faith. They wanted the intelligence agencies to produce material to show a threat, particularly an imminent threat. Then they worked back to prove their case. It was the opposite of what the process should have been like, that the evidence should prove the case."

There must be 20 or so seperate sources like this. Now remember that the CIA is a very close knit group. Like the Marines, there are no "former" CIA employees...once in the Company family...always in the family.....

John C. McCutchen, Esq.

5487. jexster - 5/16/2004 11:42:44 PM

Archivist!!!

Where IS Niner when you actually need her.

5488. wonkers2 - 5/17/2004 3:25:23 AM

The National Council of Churches is circulating a pastoral letter calling for the U.S. to drop it's preemptive war strategy and for a change in Iraq--"Specifically, we are calling on our country to turn over the transition of authority and post-war reconstruction to the United Nations--and to recognize U.S. responsibility to contribute to this effort generously through security, economic and humanitarian support--not only to bring international legitimacy to the effort, but also to foster any chance for lasting peace. We would as that members of our churches contact their respective congressional delegations to urg the U.S. to change course in Iraq. (See religion thread for full text.)

5489. jexster - 5/17/2004 8:43:22 AM

David Kay, CIA:
'Sarin Bomb' Was Probably a 1980's Leftover - MSNBC

5490. alistairConnor - 5/17/2004 9:26:00 AM

I thought at least that we could count on good old Homo Pan Troglodytes to make a fuss about the sarin shell. But his heart isn't in it :

US Troops Exposed to Sarin Gas That Does Not Exist
Difficult question for the media: How can we report that yet another two soldiers have been harmed in Iraq while avoiding all mention of how they came to harm?

According to Drudge, of course, Hans Blix rushed out to inform us that the existence of Sarin in Iraq was no evidence ofthe existence of Sarin in Iraq.

Oh, and the discovery of a mustard gas shell is also no evidence of the discovery of a mustard gas shell.

5491. alistairConnor - 5/17/2004 9:27:04 AM

(It seems that Ace's main theme these days is his obsession with Andrew Sullivan's obsession with gay marriage... how the mighty have fallen...)

5492. alistairConnor - 5/17/2004 10:21:44 AM

Ah. But from time to time, he can be funny still :

The guys get shorts
First order of business. I open up the paper today, I see a dozen naked hairy Arab asses in my face. I wasn't looking to see naked hairy Arab asses. Did I tell any of you I wanted to see naked hairy Arab asses?

[Various voices:] No, sir.

Because, if I was in anyway unclear about my feelings about the Geneva Conventions, let me clarify any confusion. Geneva Conventions, good. Naked hairy Arab asses, bad. Do you understand that?

Didn't I say shorts?

[Donald Rumsfeld:] I thought the guys were covered.

You thought, you thought, you thought. You thought eight fucking things since the war began. You're on fuckin' notice, Don. I gave you a list, you had half a list that I gave you, we're just choosing everything on it. Okay? The guys get shorts.

5493. Macnas - 5/17/2004 11:15:17 AM

I always reckoned Ace was one of the funniest people I'd ever seen online, Do you remember the election between himself and Cartman? (was it Cartman? can't recall exactly),
Some of that was true laugh out loud stuff.

I have not read much of his blog stuff, I find that format a bit tedious, whoever writes it.

5494. PelleNilsson - 5/17/2004 11:43:55 AM

Yes, it was very, very funny and a lot of people took part. But the other (winning) candidate was vonKreedon as I recall it.

5495. alistairConnor - 5/17/2004 12:10:06 PM

Business as usual: Israel launches new revenge raids to kill some Palestinians

What's somewhat novel is that this is not revenge for some Palestinian terror attack -- this is revenge for the dozen Israeli soldiers killed last week in raids into Palestine.

5496. jexster - 5/17/2004 3:00:20 PM

You Can Stick a Fork in Yazid

The Umayyad Caliph who sent military forces against Imam Husain, the grandson of the Prophet, and had him and his family and his party slaughtered, was named Yazid. The story of Yazid killing Husain is the central theological and ritual basis of Shiite Islam. It is like the passion of the Christ for devout Christians. And just as you wouldn't want to be identified as Judas by believing Christians, so the last thing you would want if you were among Shiites would be to be seen as in some way like Yazid.

For many Iraqi Shiites, the United States has become Yazid. And that is not something a colonial power can easily recover from. It will get worse....

Achieving death at the hands of the new Yazid brings them and their families honor. And, for these poor slum boys, life anyway hasn't been that great. They know death; they are not afraid of it.

It was always my nightmare that the US Army would come to fight Shiites in Karbala and Najaf near the shrines. They seemed pretty canny about the dangers until about March of this year. And then all of a sudden, they risked being Yazid. I conclude that this does not come from the US officer corps. I conclude that it comes from the desk of George W. Bush.

We don't have any officers in Iraq stupid enough to want to be Yazid. But we have civilian politicians who know nothing about Iraq who gave them an order to get Muqtada at all costs. Why that was so urgent is still not obvious, but, like everything in this war, it will be revealed to be a plot.

Newsweek reports on what it is like to try to fight in Sadr City, the Shiite slum of East Baghdad, and mentions the possibility of it erupting again (which it will if anything happens to Muqtada al-Sadr).

posted by Juan Cole at 5/18/2004 09:49:47 AM

5497. jexster - 5/17/2004 3:02:58 PM

Where is Ace, that Vile Toady of the Evil Yazid...the earth cries for his corpulent body and blood

5498. OhioSTOPAS - 5/17/2004 7:18:50 PM

Report: 4 Arrested for Nicholas Berg Murder

5499. jexster - 5/17/2004 8:54:59 PM

Washington -- When CIA officers brought the Iraqi detainee to Abu Ghraib prison, his head was covered with an empty sandbag, and Army guards were ordered to take him directly to a shower room that served as a makeshift interrogation center at the overcrowded, shell-damaged facility outside Baghdad.

An hour later, amid intensive questioning by intelligence officers, the prisoner collapsed and died. Only then did interrogators remove the hood to reveal severe head wounds that had never been treated.

The dead prisoner, whose identity still has not been made public, would become famous around the world in the photograph of a body wrapped in plastic sheeting and packed in ice -- among the most indelible images made public in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal.

An account of his final hours is contained in sworn testimony provided to Army investigators by military police guards at Abu Ghraib.

Even after he died, the documents say, officials continued to pursue their own agendas: They haggled over who was responsible for the body. Eventually, the body deteriorated to where it had to be disposed of.

The official documents describing the grim episode, obtained Monday by the Los Angeles Times, were based on testimony at a secret military court hearing last month on the charges against Sgt. Javal Davis, one of seven members of the 372nd Military Police Company accused of abusing Iraqi detainees.

Bag over prisoner's head hid fatal wounds
Testimony recounts Iraqi detainee's brutal final hours

5500. robertjayb - 5/17/2004 10:40:38 PM

About time...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon has stopped funding
Ahmad Chalabi, the Iraqi exile it once hoped might help lead Iraq but whose intelligence reports and motives were doubted elsewhere in Washington, U.S. officials said on Tuesday.

The Pentagon had been giving Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress roughly $340,000 a month. A U.S. defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the Pentagon made its May payment to the INC, and that it was the final one.

5501. robertjayb - 5/17/2004 11:36:35 PM

NPR says the bushies spent $6 Million on the scoundrel Chalabi.

5502. alistairConnor - 5/17/2004 11:52:42 PM

I hope he's got some of that salted away in a bank for his retirement.

(Not in a Jordanian bank though)

5503. jexster - 5/18/2004 1:20:09 AM

Remember Ace's case closed?

I agree with Macnas about one thing...the Late Fat Boy of Spades...

That's one one wild and crazy guy! RIP

Ye of Little Feith
Why one of Doug Feith's underlings thinks he might go to jail.

There was a time when Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith seemed to run a secret foreign policy from his office on the fourth floor of the Pentagon. As creator of the Office of Special Plans, Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith presided over a secretive intelligence unit that was briefed by Iraqi exile leader Ahmad Chalabi and sifted through CIA intelligence looking for evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and connections between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. His underlings Harold Rhode and Larry Franklin jetted off to Rome in December 2001 for secret meetings with Iran-Contra figures Michael Ledeen and Manucher Ghorbanifar. Who knew where the revolution would spread after Iraq?

But now Feith's job security is far from certain

"He was very arrogant," Karen Kwiatkowski, Feith’s former deputy, says, describing what it was like to work with him. "He doesn't utilize a wide variety of inputs. He seeks information that confirms what he already thinks. And he may go to jail for leaking classified information to The Weekly Standard." (As she explains, an article appeared in The Weekly Standard that included a leaked memo written by Feith alleging ties between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda.)

It seems unlikely that Feith will face time for the leaked memo. But he may well be forced to look for a new job soon. As he knows all too well, regime change isn't pretty.

5504. jexster - 5/18/2004 3:20:41 AM

Sharon's Butchery in Gaza Continues

5505. jexster - 5/18/2004 3:23:48 AM

Prozac in the Village of Hope
Edmund Dantes Mayor
Building a Free Iraq

Beyond Abu Ghraib: Some liberation -- in the last year, one in four Iraqis has seriously contemplated suicide.

5506. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/18/2004 6:22:05 AM

This one’s a beaut!

PARSONS: WE WERE HOAXED...BY BLAIR

The pictures of sexual abuse in Abu Ghraib. Forced sexual acts between prisoners. Corpses being defiled. The rumoured tape of an alleged rape of an Iraqi woman - an image that may prove an atrocity too far for the squeaky-clean, God-fearing patriots in the Mid-West.

And then there's my favourite - the prisoner who was forced to abuse himself with a banana. It may not have softened up the prisoner. But, by God, I bet it softened up the banana.

Here is our war on terror.

Here is Tony Blair and George Bush in all their glory. Getting some poor Iraqi bastard to stick a banana up his rectum.

And if that doesn't wipe al-Qaeda off the face of the earth, then I don't know what will.

5507. KuligintheHooligan - 5/18/2004 7:20:26 AM

From WoW's most recent hotlinked article:

"There are 1,203 British and American servicemen who have given their lives for a cause that was not worth dying for."

I think this summarizes things rather nicely for me. Forget the TENS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqis who died in the last decade under Saddam's cruel rule. It wasn't worth ousting him and ending those atrocities at all.

Naaah, I'm much happier sitting in front of the boobtube, sipping on my beer, and just not worrying about those poor Iraqi slobs suffering over there. Let's try another five years of having Saddam shove UN mandates up our nose, while he tortures and exterminates more of his fellow Iraqis. In retrospect, we should have just talked and talked and talked, and let him get away with it.

Yeah, it just wasn't worth stopping. Not at all.

5508. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:23:42 AM

IRAQ – UNSTABLE STABILIZATION EFFORT: The WP reports the Iraq Stabilization Group, the group that President Bush announced with "some fanfare" last fall to increase the administration's role in coordinating Iraq policy, seems to have become rather...unstable. Seven months after the group's creation, "the four original leaders of the Stabilization Group have taken on new roles, and only one remains concerned primarily with Iraq. A search of the White House Web site indicates the phrase 'Iraq Stabilization Group' has not been mentioned publicly since October....Critics of recent U.S. actions in Iraq, including some within the White House, said the destabilized Stabilization Group is a metaphor for an Iraq policy that is adrift as U.S. ambitions in the country are thwarted by an insurgency and a prisoner-abuse scandal."

5509. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:24:25 AM

I'm much happier sitting in front of the boobtube, sipping on my beer, and just not worrying about those poor Iraqi slobs suffering over there

Sounds about right

5510. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:32:50 AM

And while the boob sit in front of his tube all fat dumb and happy ...heart bursting with joy for the Iraqi people....

The Iraqi people say stick that beer can up your ass sideways then leave

But Kyle D. Crowley can't say anything to us anymore...
Crowley died for a lie...so crack open a cold one you sanctimonious, self-righteous, redneck pile of shit

Crowley was killed April 6, 2004, in fighting in Anbar province.

Age: 18 Hometown: San Ramon, Calif.
Died: 04/06/2004
Service: Marine Rank: Lance Cpl.
Unit: 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.

5511. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:40:28 AM

So much for Hillbilly Heroism

Say Kully the HOMO Sex makes you hard doesn't it? Few beers in front of that tube and you pull out boy mags dontcha? Or maybe cruise dark alleys for manwhores to suck?

I'm here to make it easy for ya!

"We are in a conflict between good and evil, and America will call evil by its name."
President Bush
June 1, 2002

5512. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:42:30 AM

Knock yourself out

In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates. Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid. There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling. Then, there is another cluster of hooded bodies, with a female soldier standing in front, taking photographs. Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded

5513. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:44:29 AM

and then after you've cleaned up the mess and zipped up your pants I bet its off to the local tent revival to wave your hands in the air and tell yourself what a holy roller good fuck you are

5514. jexster - 5/18/2004 8:02:25 AM

Violence Leaves Iraqis in Despair

ARTICLE 5 - THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT
You shall not kill.[54]

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, "You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment."

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.[55]
2258 "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."[56]
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Respect for the souls of others: scandal
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

5515. jexster - 5/18/2004 8:03:28 AM

You should get someone to check that beam in your eye

5516. jexster - 5/18/2004 8:13:51 AM

With trust, you gain respect, loyalty, and common purpose. … The way to maintain moral authority is by deed, not word alone.

Failure to match word and deed creates an ethereal gap that an enemy can take advantage of; and if properly exploited, that gap not only results in uncertainty and mistrust but entropy. With the onset of entropy in your own ranks, your own forces have effectively undermined themselves, and all the enemy has to do then is avail himself of your own self-made failings Col John Boyd, USAF

5517. jexster - 5/18/2004 8:14:34 AM

See how easy it is!

5518. jexster - 5/18/2004 8:41:39 AM

Occupation: From Beruit to Baghdad - ABC Nightline

Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

Those who are ignorant of the past as well...

5519. jexster - 5/18/2004 2:34:34 PM

The F word being spoken in high places.....

As Psych Prof used to say..lemme pour ya a cold one ..on the house

Stay the course.
Praise jaysus
Wave your hands in the air
Goobabaleeegaba (I type in tongues)
Kill iraqis
Onward Christian Soldiers. Amen ..Hallelujah

Bush Faces Growing Fears of Failure on Capitol Hill
Wolfowitz Concedes Errors as Damage Control Continues

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum KH.

5520. jexster - 5/18/2004 2:39:55 PM

With mounting instability, from the assassination of a top Iraqi politician to kidnappings for ransom of prominent professionals and their children, Iraqis close to the negotiations by U.N. special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi are now warning that credible politicians or technocrats may not be willing to accept jobs in the interim Iraqi government.

"Anyone in his right mind would say, 'What you're giving me is an impossible task and a no-win situation,' " said an Iraqi adviser to a member of the Iraqi Governing Council

WIN-WIN..teeeheeheeheeheee Hon Ed Dantes Village of Hope

5521. jexster - 5/18/2004 3:00:21 PM

Bad news for KulliganTheHillbilly...

IRAQ IN CRISIS: DOCTRINE OF KILL, KILL AND KILL AGAIN' ANGERS BRITISH OFFICERS

SENIOR BRITISH officers are angry and despondent at what they see as a US doctrine in Iraq of "kill, kill and kill again", and are determined that their troops should not be under direct American command, according to a report.

The simmering tension between the militaries of the two allies has been highlighted in the American magazine, Newsweek, which also describes how a British officer unsuccessfully urged his US counterparts to do the "decent thing" and free the Iraqi inmates from the notorious Abu Ghraib prison.

The British protest over Iraqi prisoners is said to have taken place at a staff meeting attended by American Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, ..

The British officer said: "The best solution is to find a way to release these people instead of building more and more detention facilities. Why don't we just do the decent thing?" Brig Gen Karpinski recalled that the British "effrontery" was received with incredulity by American commanders. "They looked at him like, who asked you?'"

The report states: "The difference in style - Do the decent thing...who asked you?- is stark. So much so, Newsweek has learnt, as to become a serious obstacle to military cooperation."

The report of discord between the US and British commanders comes at an especially critical time, with continuing turmoil in Iraq and the Government about to announce the large scale deployment of extra troops.

Senior British officers have been resisting pressure from Downing Street both on the deployment and also on placing troops outside the British controlled zone at flashpoints like Najaf.

5522. jexster - 5/18/2004 3:01:18 PM

Are ya saved Kully?

Better check the expiration date

5523. thoughtful - 5/18/2004 3:01:38 PM

Very interesting editorial in the Wall st journal the other day in that it was negative on bush and his handling of the iraqi war. Of course he had to lay some blame on the democrats too, and of course his solution was beyond the pale...essentially the same solution the us has employed around the world for decades...screw democracy, just get in a strong leader to manage the situation (hey, I understand saddam isn't doing anything these days!)...but I thought just the fact that he would assign blame, any blame at all, to the bushes and the handling of this affair as most interesting. Key issue he had was with funding and deployment of so few troops. Key omission was he didn't lay any blame at all on rummy and his vision of "military lite" that is directly responsible for this mess.

5524. jayackroyd - 5/18/2004 3:02:40 PM

I think this summarizes things rather nicely for me. Forget the TENS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqis who died in the last decade under Saddam's cruel rule. It wasn't worth ousting him and ending those atrocities at all.

OTOH, the MILLLIONS of Sudanese and Koreans aren't worth a second thought, right?

This is such a canard. It'd be a little more persuasive if the rape rooms and torture chambers had disappeared, but even so this intervention was clearly not a humanitarian intervention.

5525. jexster - 5/18/2004 3:35:26 PM

I think its blood lust and rank hypocrisy....the same shit that burns by ass whenever I hear these fundies froth for the blood of Iraqis, gays whatever fill in the fuckin blank.

As a Catholic Christian these trailer trash cultists make me want to puke...

Their heretical yammerings are a slander on me.

5526. jexster - 5/18/2004 3:48:51 PM

5527. Wombat - 5/18/2004 4:04:36 PM

The worthy aims of overthrowing Saddam have more than been eclipsed by the bankruptcy of the Bush administration's rationale for doing so, the almost complete lack of planning for the aftermath, and the incompetence of the effort to administer the occupation.

5528. alistairConnor - 5/18/2004 4:33:14 PM

Quite so. But this was obvious and predicted since before the invasion.

Blind optimism by the Bushites, who were as dumb as they appeared to be.

Blind optimism by their fellow-travelers, who assumed they couldn't possibly be.

5529. jayackroyd - 5/18/2004 4:35:13 PM

I thought I was joking when I talked about faith-based foreign policy. But apparently not.

5530. jexster - 5/18/2004 5:08:40 PM

How timely!

This is Allah's doing
and it is marvelous in our eyes (Ps 118 adapt.)

Apocalypse Now in the White House

Rick Perlstein of the Village Voice acquired a damning memo ("you're not supposed to have that") demonstrating the hold the looney Christian far Right has on Bush Middle East policy. The gem in the article is the account of how Iran-Contra criminal mastermind and current National Security Adviser Elliot Abrams tried to reassure the Christian Zionists that an Israeli "withdrawal" from Gaza will not interfere with Jesus coming back because it wasn't part of ancient Israel.

Actually, this is right. Gaza was in Philistia, not Judah, which was to its east. But for that matter, when the kindoms split, the West Bank wasn't in "Israel" either, it was in Judah. So the looney tunes Christians who are trying to kill and dispossess the poor Palestinians to drag Jesus back may as well just give it up. He wasn't treated well enough by humankind the first time to want to come back, so we're on our own, and we may as well stop being barbaric to one another in His name.

It has for some time been obvious to me that the Bush foreign policy in the Middle East is driven by irrational and often puzzling considerations.

But I hadn't stopped to consider, until Perlstein's excellent piece, that the White House is trying to bring about an apocalypse that would hasten Christ's return. And a damn fine job they're doing of it, if that's what they are up to. Why the place is more apocalyptic every day.

5531. jexster - 5/18/2004 5:08:55 PM

The one downside for Bush is that he is beholden not just to the far right Christian looney fringe but also to Wall Street, and the latter can't actually be very happy with the roller coaster ride his policies are producing for their investments. Unlike poor people, moreover, the monied both vote and give to political campaigns.

Posted by Juan at 5/19/2004 09:19:45 AM

5532. jexster - 5/18/2004 5:09:26 PM

Damn Jay you ARE fast..whew

5533. jexster - 5/18/2004 5:16:09 PM

Ain't some shit...the full Psalm

I have to contribute something here!

1 O give thanks to the Lord, for he is good *
his mercy endures for ever.
2 Let Israel now proclaim *
that his mercy endures for ever.
3 Let the house of Aaron proclaim *
that his mercy endures for ever.
4 Let those who fear the Lord proclaim *
that his mercy endures for ever.
5 In my danger I called to the Lord *
he answered and set me free.
6 The Lord is on my side, I shall not fear *
what can man do to me?
7 The Lord is at my side as my helper *
I shall see the downfall of my enemies.
8 It is better to take refuge in the Lord *
than to put your trust in man;
9 It is better to take refuge in the Lord *
than to put your trust in princes.
10 All the nations surrounded me *
but in the name of the Lord I drove them back.
11 They surrounded, they surrounded me on every side *
but in the name of the Lord I drove them back.
12 They swarmed about me like bees,
they blazed like fire among the thorns *
in the name of the Lord I drove them back.
13 I was pressed so hard that I almost fell *
but the Lord was my helper.
14 The Lord is my strength and my song *
and has become my salvation.
15 The sounds of joy and deliverance *
are in the tents of the righteous.
16 The right hand of the Lord does mighty things *
the right hand of the Lord raises up.
17 I shall not die but live *
and proclaim the works of the Lord.
18 The Lord has disciplined me hard *
but he has not given me over to death

5534. jexster - 5/18/2004 6:40:32 PM

Yes indeed they were and to imply that the current mess is a consequence of bad post war planning is to indulge in a certain causuistry for indeed everything that has come to pass was predicted in detail from many sources well before the war.

"Saddam is a bad man" was never a good reason for war. But its more than just a problem of reason, its a problem of UN-reason and willful blindness.

To say that a result is good and ignore the obvious other perils that follow on with attaining it is pretty god damn lame for lack of a better term for it

5535. Ms. No - 5/18/2004 6:49:19 PM

Anybody catch Sen. Sessions in the hearing this morning?

I was amazed. First of all, he didn't sound well-prepared and nowhere near bright enough to be attempting what he was - mainly trying to justify whatever treatment is handed out to Iraqi prisoners because, darnit, war is hard and besides, we weren't being racists about it. American prisoners in our own penal system get abused too so it's just the breaks blah blah blah.

Is he fucking serious?

Did he really think that he was going to be able to mitigate the seriousness of these allegations by pointing out that we abuse our own citizens on our own soil too?

The man is clearly out of his tree. It's as if he doesn't understand that NO prisoners should be treated this way. It has nothing to do with the race of the prisoners. This isn't some lefty outcry because the brown people are being abused rather than the white people.

I can't believe his party lets him speak in public.

5536. jexster - 5/18/2004 6:54:56 PM

Among the things that were known before the war, confirmed subsequently:

1. Saddam posed no danger to the US or to neighboring countries.

2. Saddam posed no reasonably forseeable or probable danger in the future.

3. The Bush claims that Saddam had a nuclear program were false

4. The Bush administration deliberately obstructed UN inspection efforts with the intent to make them fail

5. Each and every Bush claim about WMD capability had been proved false.

6. Bush was pursuing a radical plan cooked up by fringe academics and right wing Likud apparats for the creation of a US/Israeli neo-colonial hegemony in the middle east

7. Iraq without Saddam would be a highly unstable and fundamentally anarchic environment.

8. The US would be an occupying power in a hostile region for an indefinite period of time

9. There was no exit stategy

10. Bush had no serious plans for operating the country after the war (amply documented by consultants for the Pentagon CSIS, the Army War College, and others)

11. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would make the US less secure.

12, The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would give rise to an increase in jihadist activity in the region

13. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would alienate US allies and friends inside and outside the region to a degree never before accomplished.

14The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq was a violation of international law

5537. jexster - 5/18/2004 6:55:03 PM

15. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq was a war of aggression

16. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq was morally damnable

17. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would tie up massive amounts of US military power and leave the country seriously vulnerable in key areas of the world

18. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would make it impossible to deal with the nuclear threat from North Korea

19. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would destablize governments in the region

20. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would be used by the Likudite State to increase violence against the Palestinians

21. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would seriously undermine the Global War on Terror

22. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would gravely diminish the military economic and political position of the United States

23. The invasion and hostile occupation of Iraq would fail

5538. jexster - 5/18/2004 6:58:00 PM

Put down the Harry Potter and pick up a history book and a newspaper...this the real world

5539. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:16:20 PM

As we know,

There are known knowns.

There are things we know we know

5540. KuligintheHooligan - 5/18/2004 7:18:18 PM

jay, sure, there are other places with equal human rights violations. All things must be dealt with in their own context, though. Saddam flaunted UN resolutions for years, all the while continuing his violations.

It isn't a canard at all. Rather, one must pick and choose which to deal with. You can't possibly deal with all of them at once, nor can you be expected to deal with all of them in exactly the same way.

Personally, I think North Korea has served as a greater threat to world peace than Iraq did in the last couple of years.

Also, as an aside, jay, I'd prefer to see you actually serve as a host of this thread, and cut out the posts which only contain verbal abuse and nothing else. That is the least you can do as a host, unless you aren't really the host and your name is just up there for name's sake.

5541. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:21:13 PM

You'd prefer to spew hate and bile and pretend you are some holy fuckin piece of shit and not have anyone call you what you are.

In short you are a coward and you are a fraud

5542. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:21:31 PM

of the most vile sort..

5543. KuligintheHooligan - 5/18/2004 7:27:05 PM

Actually, I find it amazing that I can post comments in support of the removal of an evil dictator, and all jexter can do is spout vile, hateful comments, and then in the Religion thread say that he is really the one who stands approved by Jesus.

Incredible.

Personally, I think you should take these things to the Inferno, jexter, and spew your venom there. Hopefully the host of this thread will agree, but who knows. So just keep cluttering up this thread with your nonsense, if you like.

5544. KuligintheHooligan - 5/18/2004 7:27:53 PM

You are obviously driven by extreme hatred, jexter, and your soul is not healthy. Post after post attests to that fact.

I'm glad to see Saddam gone. Aren't you, jex? Or would you prefer that he still be in power today?

5545. jexster - 5/18/2004 7:30:56 PM

I'd prefer that the US had not engaged in an immoral war that was doomed to fail from the start that has immeasurably damaged our country morally, politically and militarily.

5546. KuligintheHooligan - 5/18/2004 7:33:53 PM

So answer my question. You'd prefer that Saddam were still in power today in Iraq, yes or no?

5547. robertjayb - 5/18/2004 7:34:50 PM

And the quest for hearts and minds goes on...

BAGHDAD, Iraq May 19, 2004 — (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed. Most of the bodies were wrapped in blankets and other cloths, but the footage showed at least eight uncovered, bloody bodies, several of them children. One child was headless.

5548. alistairConnor - 5/19/2004 12:14:01 AM

And in Israel :

At least ten Palestinians were killed and 35 wounded when Israeli forces fired on a crowd demonstrating against the invasion of a Gaza refugee camp today, according to hospital sources.

Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks and a helicopter had fired on the crowd in Rafah. The wounded were taken to a nearby hospital in ambulances, private cars and donkey carts.

It is believed that around 3,000 people were taking part in the protest against the Israeli invasion of the Rafah refugee camp.

Protesters scattered in panic as the air and artillery attack took place, dragging bloodied people from the streets as smoke rose from the area.

Palestinian hospital sources cited by the Associated Press said the 10 dead were children and teenagers.

Israel's military acknowledged it fired four tank shells, one missile and machine guns to stop 3,000 Palestinian demonstrators it said were heading toward a battle zone in the Gaza Strip.

5549. alistairConnor - 5/19/2004 12:15:58 AM

Just when you think it can't possibly get any worse. That's a sure sign it's going to get worse.

I'm trying not to get into a frothing rage.

Not in my name. Not in my name.

5550. judithathome - 5/19/2004 12:16:36 AM

What a wonderful world.....

5551. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 12:33:21 AM

jexter

Would you prefer that Saddam were still in power in Iraq today?

5552. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:20:42 AM

Yes indeed...where can I vote.

Idiot.

Continuing with the circumcision of the heart....

CNN Paula Zahn Show...asks the question:

An increasingly unpopular war may well lead to the downfall of GWB...What are the implications for US policy..

Come gather round people wherever you roam,
and admit that the waters around you have grown
and accept it that soon you’ll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you is worth saving
then you’d better start swimmin’ or you’ll sink like a stone;
For the times they are a changin’

Come writers and critics who prophesy with your pen,
and keep your eyes wide, the chance won’t come again.
And don’t speak too soon, for the wheel’s still in spin
and there’s no tellin’ who that it’s naming,
for the loser now will be later to win;
For the times they are a changin’.

Come senators and congressmen, please heed the call.
Don’t stand in the doorway, don’t block up the hall,
for he who gets hurt will be he who has stalled.
There’s a battle outside and it’s raging;
it’ll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls;
for the times they are a changin’.

Come mothers and fathers throughout the land
and don’t criticize what you can’t understand.
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,
your old road is rapidly aging’
please get out of the new one if you can’t lend a hand;
for the times they are a changin’.

The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast.
The slow one now will later be fast
as the present now will later be past
the order is rapidly fadin’.
The first one now will later be last;
for the times they are a changin’.

5553. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:23:23 AM

Matt.16
[1] And the Pharisees and Sad'ducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
[2] He answered them, "When it is evening, you say, `It will be fair weather; for the sky is red.'
[3] And in the morning, `It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
[4] An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.

5554. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:25:12 AM

jexter, you need to answer the question directly, but you do not do so because once you do, you realize that all your blather about the war in Iraq will be exposed as hypocritical.

So I'll ask it again: Would you prefer that Saddam still be in power in Iraq today?

If yes, why? Do you applaud his horendous rights violations and abuses of any and every person who opposed his cruel rule?

If no, then how do you suppose he would have been removed, other than forcefully?

5555. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:25:27 AM

Message # 5536 Known knowns KH...and you ask for a sign

5556. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:27:41 AM

I do not have to justify Saddam or his rule. I have to justify the war that was launched in MY name to remove him and so do you.

5557. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:28:39 AM

And I have to do that in light of history, fact, truth, the interests of my country, and Christian morality.

And so do you.

5558. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:30:25 AM

Correction...as an American I also have to justify the actions that Ronald Reagan GHWB and Donald Rumsfeld took in supporting Saddam while he committing the crimes that exercise you so.

And so do you

5559. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:31:07 AM

Let those who have ears hear!

5560. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:32:00 AM

Much of that list is up for debate, but that misses the point regardless. Where are the facts concerning the human rights violations under Saddam's regime? The thousands upon thousands of people tortured, maimed and killed under his tyranny?

The war was certainly a success in ridding the world of one of the worst dictators of the last decade. Why aren't you applauding that outcome, jexter?

Is it because you really don't care about the Iraqi people? Is it because while you sat comfortably at home cutting and pasting ad infinitum on a PC, while others were needlessly tortured and exterminated, that you really didn't care a rat's ass about those people?

Where was your bleeding heart for those people?

And, being the good Christian man that you claim to be, I hope that you pray regularly for our president and leadership. Because from where I am sitting, it seems that all you get is joy for each and every "failure" that you can pin on them.

That UK hotlink said it perfectly about people like you, jexter. Freeing people in bondage just isn't worth it to you. Grab another beer you loser. Sit your fat behind in front of the PC and type more of your pc blather. You don't really care at all.

5561. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:33:22 AM

But you continue to not answer the question, jexter, and the reason is very easy to see. You can't win if you answer it. Either way, yes or no, you lose. Which only shows your position to be vacuous and void.

5562. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:34:29 AM

Maybe a good "Christian" fella like you should tell the pagans around here what the Sign of Jonah that is yours is.

Crack open a beer and think about it

5563. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:37:20 AM

If you wish to debate any point on the list please bring it on.

Pay particular note to points 15 & 16.

I state unequivocally that it was immoral to wage war and this even if this meant Saddam would be in power today.

5564. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:39:21 AM

jexter

You stand in a long line of naysayers who have nothing positive to add to any debate. All they do is tear down and tear down. And they always do it with 20/20 hindsight.

Did you want Saddam removed? No, and you expose yourself for the lowlife creep that you are, not caring one lick about the afflictions or plight of others.

If yes, the how pray tell? And there's the rub. You can't say.

There are people in the world who act on convinction, and then there are people such as yourself. You just sit idly by and wait for others to fail, all the while hoping and praying that they do. But do you have anything positive to contribute yourself? Heaven forbid.

Just keep sitting on your fat keister, slurping down your hops, and spewing filth. That's all you are really good for.

Contribute something positive or helpful? Heaven forbid.

5565. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:39:39 AM

And not only that, I state unequivocally that the war to remove Saddam because it was immoral has fatally undermined the war itself and US security.

Those are the points in the two messages.

They were always clear to me
'

Now they are clear to you

Further I submit that persons who continue to wittingly supported this war are in grave peril of their souls

5566. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:40:12 AM

"I state unequivocally that it was immoral to wage war and this even if this meant Saddam would be in power today."

Well, finally, a direct answer!

So you believe that leaving Saddam in power was the right thing to do, correct?

5567. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:40:15 AM

THAT is not PC blather...that is a matter of one's immortal soul before God.

5568. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:41:51 AM

"Further I submit that persons who continue to wittingly supported this war are in grave peril of their souls"

Hmmmm. So now you are the arbitor of the souls of humans? Interesting.

Back to the issue at hand, how can you come in here and whine about the Palestinians, and not give a rat's ass about the Iraqis and what they suffered under Saddam?

5569. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:43:45 AM

I give you no quarter for my baptismal vows read in part:

Question Do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces
of wickedness that rebel against God?

Answer I renounce them.

Question Do you renounce the evil powers of this world
which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God?

Answer I renounce them.

5570. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:43:56 AM

How about the genocide that occurred in the mid-90s in Ruanda. Do you think the US should have intervened in that atrocity, jexter? Would that have constituted a "just war" in your book?

5571. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:44:12 AM

Get thee hence Satan

5572. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:45:15 AM

Doubtful..

5573. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:45:27 AM

"Question Do you renounce the evil powers of this world
which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God?

Answer I renounce them."

But as you already noted in the Religion Thread, jexter, you do believe that at times a "just war" is acceptable. In that case, unless you believe that no killing will occur in such a war, you support the "destruction of the creatures of God," correct?

You can't have it both ways, jexter, no matter how much you might believe to the contrary.

5574. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:46:35 AM

"doubtful.."

Assuming this is in response to my question about Ruanda, when on earth then do you think a "just war" is ever really just??!

5575. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:47:10 AM

Back to the issue at hand, how can you come in here and whine about the Palestinians,

Because the Israeli Army is slaughtering them with the active assistance and encouragement of the US government

and not give a rat's ass about the Iraqis and what they suffered under Saddam?

Assumes facts not in evidence.

In plain English - a lie

5576. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:48:21 AM

I think you should just stick to what you do best, post cut-and-paste blather and never actually have to defend or clearly state your position(s) on anything. Because once you open your mouth to actually attempt to do so, you make little to no sense. Your position is contradictory to the core.

"I love Jesus and fuck anybody who thinks otherwise." That fairly sums up your position on just about anything, jexter. You are a Pharisee of Pharisees in that regard, truly.

5577. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:50:30 AM

"Assumes facts not in evidence."

No, you already stated that you prefer that Saddam still be in power today, over the forceful removal of him via war. Those are the facts to this point.

Unless, of course, you propose how you would have removed him other than forcefully?? I'm open to hearing your arguments. Because until you can do this effectively, all your nonsense about the war is just that, nonsense.

Again, it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and cast stones at the people trying to remove evil.

I doubt your cutting and pasting would have removed Saddam, jex.

5578. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:52:10 AM

You wish me to be direct.

I shall be blunt.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

5579. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:52:13 AM

5580. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:53:37 AM

jexter, do you think you are Jesus? Just curious.

5581. jexster - 5/19/2004 2:54:30 AM

No, you already stated that you prefer that Saddam still be in power today, over the forceful removal of him via war. Those are the facts to this point.

That is correct.

This a lie:

and not give a rat's ass about the Iraqis and what they suffered under Saddam?

What part of John 8:44 are you having trouble with?

5582. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 2:59:22 AM

jexter, if you believe that you are fully acceptable to Jesus, so be it. As we both profess, a time of judgment will come upon all mankind. And neither you nor I will stand on anything other than the mercy and grace of God.

I'm tired of going round and round with you and trying to get a straight answer. I prefer getting one, say, on the first try, not the tenth.

Have a good evening.

5583. jexster - 5/19/2004 3:04:28 AM

I know what you are....a coward..

You have some questions to answer.

I suggest you get to it.

I have already told you what I believe WRT that last comment.

And that you know full well already..and you also know full well that you are lying again.

Now..I think the record is quite clear.

5584. jexster - 5/19/2004 3:05:12 AM

You sleep REAL tight with the boy you pick up tonight

5585. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 3:09:02 AM

You are a conflicted human being, jexter. A few cards short of a deck.

5586. robertjayb - 5/19/2004 3:23:17 AM

You are both behaving as simpletons. Shut it. Move it. Or just go away.

5587. arkymalarky - 5/19/2004 5:04:26 AM

I would like to see Kim Jong Il removed from power. Would it be worth it if it resulted in 1000 American deaths, killed thousands of North Koreans, destabilized the region, came with world-publicized atrocities against North Korean detainees, increased Asian hostility against the US, and left us with no clear exit strategy or increased security (and very likely decreased security) as a result?

No.

5588. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 6:02:24 AM

Interesting list there, arky. Let me take them each separately:

1) Would it be worth it if it resulted in 1000 American deaths

If the trade-off was thousands upon thousands of saved lives, I certainly consider it.

2) killed thousands of North Koreans,

How many of them were fighters we had to remove in order to achieve the ousting of the dictator, versus innocent civilians? And then I'd have to weigh those figures against the innocent civilians that die every day we don't act.

3) destabilized the region,

Depends on how unstable the region was before. In terms of the Middle East, I don't think this is a fair claim.

4) came with world-publicized atrocities against North Korean detainees,

Certainly no one could see this coming. It is horrible what has happened, but such things clearly cannot be held against the main objective.

5) increased Asian hostility against the US,

Again, in terms of the Middle East and Arabs, I don't think if America dumped $10 billion a year of free money for the next decade into Arab countries that it would change their view of us at all. In other words, going into Iraq didn't damage anything. It was already about as bad as it could get. If people hate you ideologically, that isn't going to change.

6) and left us with no clear exit strategy or increased security (and very likely decreased security) as a result?

Perhaps I missed something, but I never thought this was going to be easy. And anybody who thought it was going to be a piece of cake was just nuts. I think, all things considered, that things are going about as they could have been expected. It was a tall task to engage.

5589. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 6:02:33 AM

Leave Saddam there and go with the status quo, or act forcefully? I still think we made the right decision, regardless of how difficult it has been. That's the way life is. Sometimes the most important things you do are the most difficult.

5590. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 6:13:41 AM

I also would like to note that terrorist attacks against American interests (outside Iraq, just to filter the war) have decreased, not increased. There were more during the Clinton administration than the Bush one.

Hatred of America in the Arab world was already present in great force. It always will be so long as the US supports Israel.

And let's be realistic here. If Al Qaida could perform terrorist acts on American soil (like 9/11) don't you think they'd be doing it every day? As it is, they aren't. The war in Iraq hasn't increased such activity at all, nor hampered the war on terror. The sweeping away of Saddam certainly gave a dose of reality, though, to certain countries who might have thought about openly harboring terrorists.

Lastly, if we did not go and forcefully remove Saddam, how much longer do you think he would have been in power? Given his age and health, another decade is not out of the question. So all number counts of human lives lost have to be weighed against the tally of atrocities on his end for another decade, if not more.

Lastly, once things are turned over to the Iraqis, I fully expect attacks to continue in that country. In other words, it isn't simply anti-American sentiment that is fueling things there, but anti-democratic sentiment as well.

I have relatives who lived under dictatorships, and not one of them would agree with the sentiment that allowing the dictator to continue his evil reign was a real option, despite the difficulties that resulted in removing him. That's part of the evil grip a dictator has on his people. For many, removing him is such a daunting task, and the infrastructure so built upon him, that doing so involves incredible risk. But the long term gains are always worth it. Always.

Shoot me for being an optimist, but I think in the long run, Iraq will be a better place without Saddam.

5591. arkymalarky - 5/19/2004 6:30:40 AM

Maybe, but it wasn't in our best interest considering the circumstances and our other options. A badly handled action, even if morally sound, can be worse than none at all, even for those we're most trying to help. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If your points adequately support our actions in Iraq, then deposing Kim Jong Il would be the thing for us to do, no question.

5592. arkymalarky - 5/19/2004 6:33:24 AM

I would also assert that terrorist acts against us were going to decrease after 9/11 regardless. The question is whether we diverted resources and attention that would have better been spent on reducing/removing Al Qaeda's ability to create problems elsewhere. With Bin Laden and Zarqawi at large and no visible progress made against existing terrorists/groups in quite a while, I would say we have.

5593. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:08:54 AM

Arrivederci Roma
Italians Retake Base
Nasiriyah Library in Flames

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi wants out of Iraq with honor, according to Italian sources. He is down in the polls and keenly aware of what happened to rightwing Spanish PM Aznar. The Italian public is increasingly against an Italian presence in Iraq, and opposition politicians are calling loudly for withdrawal. Even Berlusconi's own cabinet is drawing up withdrawal plans behind the scenes.

Bush may be pushing Europe to the Left. He may have already helped elect Gerhard Schroeder, who ran against the war before the fact, and PM Zapatero in Spain. Berlusconi could well fall victim to the same trend. There may yet be a Labor Party revolt against Tony Blair, similar to the one mounted by Michael Heseltine against Maggie Thatcher among the Tories over a decade ago, which indirectly led to her being dumped for John Major.

posted by Juan at 5/19/2004 06:26:11 AM

5594. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:15:35 AM

Thursday, May 20, 2004
Poll: Muqtada Second Most Popular Politician in Iraq

Hell everybody's gettin well on the Malignant Moron.

YO Swede....

I AM on record aren't I? Iraq HAS ALREADY buried Bush.

Pa Svenska?

5595. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:32:51 AM

The Eagle Has Crash Landed: Bloody Butchers of Baghdad Warn Insurgency Growing

Last we "spoke" off record Ace told me that he could answer but chose not to.

Anyone believe that crap?

5596. robertjayb - 5/19/2004 2:18:06 PM

Chalabi gets wake-up visit...(NBC)

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. soldiers and Iraqi police raided the residence of Iraqi politician Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday, and aides accused the Americans of trying to pressure him to stop complaining about U.S. plans for Iraq after sovereignty is transferred at the end of next month.

NBC News has learned that an Iraqi judge issued arrest warrants for 16 people affliliated with Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress. The raid is said to be related to alleged financial misdealings at the end of last year during the conversion from Saddam-era dinars to new Iraqi dinars.

5597. robertjayb - 5/19/2004 2:40:39 PM

Flipped-out Republicans...(Maureen Dowd)

It just shows how completely flipped out the Republicans are about how the Iraq occupation is going that they are turning on a war hero and P.O.W. (John McCain), and on a man (John Warner) who enlisted in not one war, but two.

It's hard to believe that even if the generals weren't testifying here, they could do much to stop the spiral into anarchy there, with each day bringing some new horror.

5598. jexster - 5/19/2004 4:12:27 PM

Then Senator John Cornyn of Texas weighed in, suggesting that Mr. Warner, a Navy officer in World War II, a Marine lieutenant in the Korean War and a Navy secretary under Nixon, and Mr. McCain, who lived in a dirt suite at the Hanoi Hilton for five years, were not patriotic. Their "collective hand-wringing," Mr. Cornyn sniffed, could be "a distraction from fighting and winning the war

Naywh Rohburht, wuz Texins borun stewpiyd owur di y'all hayuv tuh werk ayt iyut?

5599. judithathome - 5/19/2004 4:16:36 PM

Cornyn was just born Republican. And I'd bet a check of his past would show he never served in any military capacity, either.

5600. jexster - 5/19/2004 4:18:39 PM

OK that splains sum thur Juhday buht...

Hell with that shit..back to English..

What about Tom DeeeLay Dist 22? Sugar Lump

5601. jexster - 5/19/2004 4:19:16 PM

and then another why y'alls birthin so many Republicans,...bad pre-natal care?

5602. jexster - 5/19/2004 4:20:36 PM

distraction from winning the war...puhleeze girl

FREE AHMED!

5603. jexster - 5/19/2004 4:23:30 PM

Now you bein a constituent, you and Robert, he wouldn't answer one of those NoCali Commies.

Warner and McCain a distraction from winning the War?

Senator its a nice day for a WHITE wedding. (insert Wedding Massacre story and the latest from the GOP Victoria's secret the purty pink panty pics too!)_

5604. judithathome - 5/19/2004 4:28:39 PM

and then another why y'alls birthin so many Republicans,...bad pre-natal care?

I still believe they all moved here with Bush from Yankeeland.

5605. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:04:08 PM

"I am America's best friend in Iraq," Chalabi said. "If the CPA finds it necessary to direct an armed attack against my home, you can see the state of relations between the CPA and the Iraqi people."

Horned desert viper (Cerastes cerastes) This poisonous, venomous snake buries itself in the sand while waiting for a meal. Found in dry and sandy habitats of the Middle East.

5606. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:11:18 PM

Yea UR probably right...but once ya put on a big silver buckled belt, a ten gallon and slip on a pair of Tony Lama's ...

Like a circumcision of the heart

5607. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:20:08 PM

It's an obvious question really, but worth asking, worth considering: How long do we think the administration, the CPA, the UN and whoever else now has a finger in the pie will wait to announce what government, we'll be handing 'sovereignty' over to at the end of June?

What's the absolute latest you can imagine? A month? A week? .

But just step back and look at how crazy this is: we've run Iraq for more than a year, spent hundreds of billions of dollars on the whole effort, lost many of our own sons and daughters as well as many Iraqis. And here you have what is arguably the big issue: who you hand the place off to and how you hand it off to them. And it's left to the last minute, with the powers that be having to ditch almost everything that has come up until this point and start from scratch.

The market in examples for how badly the Bush team has bungled this situation is admittedly glutted. But even if they're now going for a dime a dozen this is really one to marvel at.

How'd we get into this? After 50 years of pretty consistently prudential foreign policy, managed mostly on a consensus of bipartisan agreement (yes, there are exceptions, but by and large, true), they decided to bet the national ranch on an idea. Actually it was a series of ideas, wrapped together in an odd tangle that could look like an odd jumble when viewed from outside. The key, however, was betting the national ranch on steep odds.

Only, they weren't confident the country would get behind such a riverboat gamble. So they lied about what they were doing. They didn't trust the people -- which might be an epitaph..

Now, what do we expect of people who make reckless gambles with other people's money?

Do you expect those sorts of folks to take responsibility when things go bad? Or do you expect them to blame others?

Character, alas, really does count.

5608. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:23:35 PM

1) Would it be worth it if it resulted in 1000 American deaths

If the trade-off was thousands upon thousands of saved lives, I certainly consider it.

AMERICAN deaths!

Tens of thousands have died already...and that isn't the question now is it

24 questions..unanswered

case closed

Terrorism is growing all over the world and if you don't think that terrorists are attacking US interests in each and every case, in Iraq and out...

You are not only a liar but you are an idiot

5609. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:38:07 PM

Let's put Kully's "Christian" bona fides to the test

The decision is to be made by the proper authority with the right intention:

FAILED. The US violated international law by launching a war of agression. Even if we concede, arguendo, that this is not the case, the decision to go to war was induced by fraud, misrepresentatation and lies

Lies have consequences
the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

FAILED
There must be a reasonable hope of success

FAILED: The failure of planning and basic knowledge of Iraqi history is now obvious
The expected good will outweigh the expected evil (overall proportionality)

FAILED
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
FAILED
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
FAILED

5610. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:41:08 PM

At the same time as Col John Boyd, as the Chair of the Ethics Dept at the Naval Academy and scholars from the Army War College have powerfully argued and all the more so in light of the actual events, let us not forget at the same time that the just war is NOT some airy fairy religious doctrine...it is real world..and the failure of teh Bush administration to meet these requirements is the direct and the proximate cause of our present National Disaster and Disgrace

See Trust Busted for an thorough exposition of the point.

But above all, none of the conditions for a moral, Just War were met either prospectively or in the event, therefore no Christian may support such a war

5611. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:43:58 PM

Why We Get It Wrong

By William S. Lind

One of the few consistencies of the war in Iraq is America’s ability to make the wrong choices.

From starting the war in the first place through outlawing the Baath and sending the Iraqi army home to assaulting Fallujah and declaring war on Shiite militia leader Muqtada al-Sadr, we repeatedly get it wrong. Such consistency raises a question: can we identify a single factor that consistently leads us in the wrong direction?

I think we can. That is not to say other factors are not also in play. But one wrong notion does appear to underlie many of our blunders. That is the belief that in this war, the U.S. military is the strongest player.

We hear this at every level from the rifle squad to the White House. In Fallujah, Marine privates and sergeants want to finish the job of taking the city, with no doubt whatsoever that they can. In Baghdad, spokesmen for the CPA regularly trumpet the line that no Iraqi fighters can hope to stand up to the U.S. military. Washington casts a broader net, boasting that the American military can defeat any enemy, anywhere. The bragging and self-congratulation reach the point where, as Oscar Wilde might have said, it is worse than untrue; it is in bad taste.

5612. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:45:59 PM

In fact, in Iraq and in Fourth Generation war elsewhere, we are the weaker party. The most important reason this is so is time.

For every other party, the distinguishing characteristic of the American intervention force is that it, and it alone, will go away. At some point, sooner or later, we will go home. Everyone else stays, because they live there.

What if we do come to understand our own inherent weakness in places like Iraq? Might we then come up with some more productive approaches? Well, the Byzantines might have something to teach us on that score. Greek fire notwithstanding, what kept the Eastern Roman Empire alive for a thousand years after Rome fell was knowing how to play weak hands brilliantly.

William S. Lind is Director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation

Sanity ...its not just for liberals any more

5613. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:46:07 PM

5614. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:49:29 PM

You see among the many things that our beer belching beelzebub seems to miss is that war isn't a game being played on the tube the boob watches.

War is not a video game. I doesn't matter whether in the event the US loses 10 or will, a we will in fact, lose thousands as we already have to death and injury.

The war was reckless and immoral from the start and this country's moral standing and its power have been irreparably and gravely damaged.

All of it was obvious before the first tank burst through the sand berms in Kuwait

5615. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:51:10 PM

The Eagle Has Crash Landed
by Immanuel Wallerstein | Foreign Policy Jul 01 '02

Pax Americana is over. Challenges from Vietnam and the Balkans to the Middle East and September 11 have revealed the limits of American supremacy. Will the United States learn to fade quietly, or will U.S. conservatives resist and thereby transform a gradual decline into a rapid and dangerous fall?

5616. jexster - 5/19/2004 5:53:05 PM

KH..

“Your Fish, Sir”

By William S. Lind

In the twelve-course meal that is the war in Iraq, America has just been served the first entree. The fight with Iraq’s state armed forces was merely the amuse-bouche. The subsequent guerilla war with the Baath, as distasteful as we found it, was still just the appetizer. Over the past two weeks, we have been presented with the first of the main courses, Fourth Generation war waged for religion. If, as is traditional, this is the fish course, our reaction suggests it is flounder.

Frankly, I was surprised how quickly this dish arrived. It seems Mohammed’s kitchen is working rather more speedily than usual. ...

So what comes next? The current violence may follow a sine wave, ebbing and then flowing again, with the whole curve gradually trending up. Or, it may rise in a linear, accelerating curve, in which case we will soon be driven out of Iraq, possibly in a full-scale sauve que peut rout. The former appears more likely, but it still leads to the same ending, if taking a bit more time to get there.

Unlike traditional twelve-course dinners, this one does not finish with a dessert or a savoury. It ends, to borrow one of John Boyd’s favorite phrases, with the “coalition” getting the whole enchilada right up the p--- chute.

You cannot get anything you want at Mohammed’s restaurant.

5617. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 5:59:18 PM

"Maybe, but it wasn't in our best interest considering the circumstances and our other options."

arky, what other options? Continue sitting on our behinds while the UN continued to waffle? Forcefully removing Saddam wasn't the first option in my mind, it was the last. At some point, you simply have to act.

That's why I asked jexter the question he never wanted to answer. If you wanted Saddam gone, what would you have done to do it? Because what was done up to that point wasn't working, while Hussein thumbed his nose at the UN.

You know, when it involves our own personal liberty, we are entirely impatient and want it immediately. But when it involves the liberty and freedom of others, we have infinite patience to negotiate until we are blue in the face.

5618. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 6:03:06 PM

"If your points adequately support our actions in Iraq, then deposing Kim Jong Il would be the thing for us to do, no question."

arky, I don't agree actually. It is an entirely different part of the world, and my point about Arab hatred against the US alreaqdy existing even before we invaded Iraq shouldn't be cast aside. That isn't the case generally speaking in Asia.

On a personal note, if Clinton were president and he decided to go into Iraq, and everything else were exactly the same as it is today, just with Clinton in the White House, I'd be saying exactly the same thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with politics with me. I wish I could say the same thing about others here, but obviously that is not the case.

I want America to succeed, regardless of who gets the credit for it. Others in this thread only want their man in the Oval Office to succeed, and look for every way possible for the opposition's man to fail.

That, I believe, is one of the weaknesses of America.

5619. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 6:21:03 PM

I also think that views concerning what is happening in Iraq are at times too simplistically cast as "anti-American" because that is the easiest thing to do. But consider the several possibilities:

1) There are Iraqis who are upset because Saddam is gone. They were in power along with him, and it doesn't matter who is in power in the future, they will always fight it.

2) There are those who hate America and no matter what happens, they are going to oppose American intervention.

3) There are those happy to see Saddam gone but too scared to make their feelings known.

4) There are those happy to see Saddam gone, vocal about it, and hope for a democracy of sorts.

5) There are those happy to see Saddam gone, but only want their party or group to be in power, and regardless of who comes into power, they will cause trouble.

This is by no means exhaustive. Again, I fully expect the violence and suicide attacks to continue, even after America starts turning over control to Iraqis. There are simply too many people in Iraq who are not interested in anybody else other than their own party being in sole possession of power in the country.

5620. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 6:51:57 PM

It is an entirely different part of the world, and my point about Arab hatred against the US alreaqdy existing even before we invaded Iraq shouldn't be cast aside. That isn't the case generally speaking in Asia.

It wasn't the case, generally speaking, in Asia.

The Iraq campaign, particularly the carelessness and ineptness of the post-war administration, has decisively turned even Asian opinion against the USA. This country is now extremely unpopular and comprehensively distrusted across many nations which were - at worst - extremely moderate and even favorable in attitude.

South Korea is among these.

5621. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 6:55:16 PM

Because what was done up to that point wasn't working, while Hussein thumbed his nose at the UN.

Hooligan,

You're naively parroting the Bushite propaganda.

Hussein was forced to play host to UN arms inspectors who had unprecedented freedom of movement and access in Iraq. He also was subjected to a UN-backed no-fly-zone over much of his country, and his control over the entire North was taken away under UN aegis.

It was a prolonged humiliation, only the neocon bullshitters pretend that he was somehow "defiant".

5622. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 7:18:01 PM

From the BBC.

5623. Wombat - 5/19/2004 7:18:33 PM

Other than a few stray artillery rounds, the UN inspectors found no evidence of an ongoing WMD program; as have--to date--US inspectors.

Kuligan:

Was it necessary for the US to invade Iraq when it did, without making much effort to swing the UN and other allies behind the action? Could the US have afforded to wait 6 months? Long enough to have another division available to take part?

The way the Bush administration presented it, Iraq was a clear and present danger to the United States itself, a case largely made by proclaiming spurious links between Iraq and Al Qaeda and somehow ascribing an active role in 9/11 to Saddam. This conflation of the "War on Terrorism" with a war on Iraq has been disastrous, with ill effects ranging from a diminuition of US efforts in Afghanistan to the use of interrogation tactics applied to Al Qaeda suspects (which has some legal justification, however questionable) against Iraqi insurgent suspects, most of whom are unlikely to be directly involved in attacks on US forces.

There is another category of Iraqi: happy to have Saddam overthrown, and inclined to be supportive of the US presence in Iraq if it would quickly restore order and vital services, set up a working economy, and pouring aid needed to do so into Iraq. Unfortunately, Bush administration incompetence began losing these Iraqis during the first week after the fall of Baghdad.

5624. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:20:18 PM

Hardly defiant...he was cooperating...that's why Bush had to invade..

Saddam was a decript mess, his regime on the verge of collaps - known before, indisputable now..

Bush got conned by Chalabi - George Washington of Iraq the neocons called him

Mission Accomplished.

Lying bunch of incompentents - a motely collection of looney academics and Christian fundi freakazoids.

God Help AmeriKa

5625. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:22:04 PM

Chalabi's House Raided; He is Suspended from the Interim Governing Council - Juan Cole

What happens to a ruler without strong allies? Can you say Louis XVI?

Ahmad Chalabi's house was raided in Baghdad by US troops on orders of an Iraqi judge. He is said to have been suspended from the Interim Governing Council, though he maintains that Ghazi al-Yawer, the current president of the IGC, has called him to a meeting on Friday afternoon at 4 pm Baghdad time.

One problem with the way the US has been behaving in Iraq, whatever the merits of this case, is that it is alienating all major political forces in the country. First its radical debaathification (so that a high school teacher out in Ramadi who had joined the Baath party but never done anything criminal was fired and excluded from civil society) alienated the Sunnis. They have not been mollified by recent steps belatedly to reverse this policy. Then the US came after Muqtada al-Sadr and began alienating a lot more Shiites. Now it has turned the Iraqi National Congress against it. The INC, whatever one thinks of it, has strong Kurdish and Shiite allies. What happens to a ruler without strong allies? Can you say Louis XVI?

5626. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 7:22:14 PM

Let me comment about African sentiment toward the US. Of course, I am only speaking about southern Africa, but perhaps my observations are consistent in other regions of Africa as well.

There was a love/hate relationship with the US that existed before the Iraq war. For the most part, they smiled nicely to our face when asking for or getting money, but good politics always involved bad-mouthing American policy. The war on Iraq has basically given them a reason to be publicly hateful of the US. If I could use your word and say they were "moderately" favorable, that might be a fair analysis of their attitude pre-war.

However, that favorability was hypocritical in my estimation. They only liked us because they knew they could get something from us. Part of the love/hate relationship was simple jealousy, jealous of America and what is embodies, wishing they could be what we are. I don't think my perception is imperialistic or somehow Western arrogance. I think it is proven by their actions.

So now they basically hate us. But they'll still take our money every chance they can.

5627. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 7:23:15 PM

I want America to succeed, regardless of who gets the credit for it. Others in this thread only want their man in the Oval Office to succeed, and look for every way possible for the opposition's man to fail.

Holligan,

I see no real reason to disbelieve your comments about yourself.

However, the kind of horrific partisanship that is taking place now is a bot different from the way you characterize it.

The way I see it, the real glaring political problem that is hurting the US right now is the scorched-earth entrenchment of the Right (and baboon cohorts). They will not admit that errors were made, they will not admit even to themselves that this country has been horrifically weakened and isolated thanks to the botching of the Iraq campaign. No quarter is given, no acknowldegments of mistakes are made, which means that no lessons are learned and no one can go forward with the understanding that a better way will be sought.

It's gruesome to even watch, lt alone participate in this pathetic zero-sum trench warfare.

5628. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:23:29 PM

decrepit...

Probably decript too

5629. Wombat - 5/19/2004 7:27:49 PM

This partisanship was apparent during the Clinton administration, and clearly hampered the administration's efforts against Al Qaeda.

5630. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:28:21 PM

It is often said that "the Iraqis are better off without Saddam"

Perhaps so, but recent event cast grave doubt on that proposition as well

I think we are seeing the Debray Decomposition now on the verge of a "rapid cycling" - such chaos that it will make many long for Saddam's return and if not get it, then get the next worst thing..

Be all that as it may and as it probably will the question has never been "Are the Iraqi people better off?"

Forget the fact that those who ask the questions, including one around here, do not give a rat's ass about the Iraqis and have SAID SO..and forget too that this entire war was driven by the bigotry and hatred and blood lust of these very same hypocrites and liars...

Forget all of that...concede The Hooligan's deep concern for the Iraqi people...

The question is...

Is AMERICA beter off?

5631. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:32:17 PM

or better for that matter..

What can one say of a person who, now that EVERY contention advanced in support of the war of aggression has been proved to be a LIE?

john 8:44

44You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

5632. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:35:29 PM

The Roman Catholic Rite of Exorcism now available in RP

Holy Michael Archangel...

5633. PelleNilsson - 5/19/2004 7:38:33 PM

The US standing in the world, in particular its moral standing, is lower now than at any other point in its history.

5634. Wombat - 5/19/2004 7:41:17 PM

Pelle:

You are old enough to remember Vietnam from 1968-72. We are not yet at that point.

5635. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:51:18 PM

It is much worse than Vietnam..far..far. worse

For there was nothing strategic at stake in Vietnam...here there is..

Insofar as the rest of the World was concerned Vietnam was OUR problem, not theirs..

Insofar as Europe was concerned, they were concerned about the Warsaw Pact, not our standing brought low though it was.

No this is much worse

Vietnam I know...that was my thing way back then ....guerilla war & national security policy....

Read Jeff Record's piece in the latest Parameters..compares the two..

He knows

5636. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:51:53 PM

Wrote a few books about it as part of the Army's reconstruction effort post war...

5637. jexster - 5/19/2004 7:53:21 PM

It will turn the gradual slide out of post WWII hegemony into a rapid one...

Already has begun

5638. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:08:48 PM

Chalabi is running to every camera he can find...you oughta hear it!

5639. PelleNilsson - 5/19/2004 8:11:03 PM

I have to agree with jexster. This is worse than Vietnam. Back then there were still people who stood up for the US. There was a vigorous debate in this country. Now, no serious newpaper, no serious debater supports the US. The best they can do is to suggest of mitigating circumstances. The only support, small as it is, comes from Islamophobe nutbags on obscure websites.

5640. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:19:15 PM

See Rummy shit his pants...CNN live NOW

He don't know whether to shit or go brown...Chalabi, Cheney, Rummy, Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Libby...the entire Bush administration is in deep shit with Chalabi

Chalabi was the linchpin of the war

Chalabi is the reason the CIA wants to eliminate Bush Cheney

Chalabi is the reason for Operation Weed The Garten

The CIA has triumphed

5641. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:19:59 PM

Holy Jaysus Pelle...I gotta down a bottle of Finlandia

5642. jexster - 5/19/2004 8:20:24 PM

Acquavit chaser

5643. jexster - 5/19/2004 9:04:04 PM

CNN Ledes the Chalabi story..

Harry Truman once said, "If you want a friend in Washington get a dog"...Ahmed Chalabi may be recalling those words now...cut to Chalabi broadside

Ahmed Chalabi Tom Paine of the New Iraq

5644. jexster - 5/19/2004 9:04:26 PM

Those fucking morons made that scuzzball a HERO

5645. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 10:15:54 PM

"You're naively parroting the Bushite propaganda."

marj, I was overseas from 7/99 to 7/04. I had little to no exposure to the "Bushite propaganda." I believed that we should forcefully remove Saddam myself. I didn't need to be brainwashed into thinking such.

5646. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 10:18:59 PM

"Was it necessary for the US to invade Iraq when it did, without making much effort to swing the UN and other allies behind the action? Could the US have afforded to wait 6 months? Long enough to have another division available to take part?"

Sorry, wombat, I just saw this from you.

Personally, I didn't trust the UN "allies" (such as France and Germany) to really do anything about Saddam. Six more months wouldn't have solved anything, I don't think. But then again, I can't be entirely sure either. All I know is that at some point when a guy is jerking your chain you have to say, "Enough is enough!" and act. The UN seemed rather impotent to me.

And waiting would have only placed more Iraqis in harm's way in the interim.

Still, it was NEVER going to be a piece of cake in my reckoning.

5647. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 10:21:18 PM

Hooligan,

If it is not propaganda gleaned from neocon talking points, then you're very mistaken about Hussein "thumbing his nose".

1) He was subjected to all various kinds of controls, including humiliating loss of power over his air defense and the entire Kurdish areas.

2) He was forced to deal with an independent UN arms-control agency, which demanded and got access to wherever it wanted to go.

3) His political power was sapped by crippling UN-sponsored economic sanctions.

There was no "defiant Saddam", and in this context there was no "impotent UN." These are false images which have been conjured up by the neocons.

5648. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 10:22:56 PM

I'm afraid, Hooligan, that you are indeed doing no more than repeating the hollow (and provably false) neocon propaganda about the situation that led up to the decision to attack Iraq outside a multilateral framework.

5649. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:24:59 PM

As America’s civilian and military high command comes unglued, American actions in Iraq grow more inchoate. The Marines did what needed to be done in Fallujah, turning the place over to one of Saddam’s generals who might be able to run it, mainly because he comes from the tribe that has always run it. The pathetic CPA, aka the Emerald City, bleated that they had not “vetted” him and named another Iraqi general in his place, forgetting that anyone the Americans “vet” is thereby labeled “collaborator.” We continue to encircle Najaf, which is dumb, and the Iraqi resistance has again cut the road from Baghdad to the airport, which is dangerous. One suspects that a fly on the wall in meetings in the White House or in Baghdad’s Green Zone thinks it has wandered into a low-budget production of Marat-Sade.

But what of the world beyond Iraq?

When the full scope of America’s defeat in the Wars of Mass Destruction ignited by Iraq becomes apparent, the political result is likely to go far beyond any election, especially an election in America’s one-party Republicrat state (you get two candidates, but they both represent the same thing.) We are likely to see that interesting time known by historians as “change of dynasty,” where a defective and corrupt Establishment is all swept away.

Now that could be fun to watch

William S. Lind is Director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation

The Free Congress Foundation is a 26-year-old Washington, DC-based conservative think tank, that teaches people how to be effective in the political process, advocates judicial reform, promotes cultural conservatism, and works against the government encroachment of individual liberties.

5650. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 10:31:28 PM

Oh, and the four years that Saddam did not allow inspectors into the country was, what marjori, more "neocon" propaganda?

Puhleaze. He was being defiant and lying the entire time. If you choose to believe Saddam that's your problem, not mine.

5651. Wombat - 5/19/2004 10:37:35 PM

Except it appears to have turned out that he was not lying about WMD--I was shocked, as well.

5652. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 10:40:34 PM

FYI, Hooligan, the "impotent" UN had a fleet of excellent and well-trained arms inspectors roaming Iraq - pretty much at will - in the months before the Bushites insisted on ignoring their recommendations and heading in for invasion without multilateral cover.

5653. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 10:43:32 PM

Hindsight is indeed 20/20, but because Saddam had already proven himself to be entirely unreliable, I think it more than reasonable to assume that he was hiding things even then from the inspectors.

Basically, Saddam brought this upon himself. He wanted to play the big man in the Middle East and got his fanny wiped doing it.

I do not think allowing more time to the UN would have changed anything.

5654. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:43:59 PM

Lind is one of the clearest thinking conservatives I have ever seen here is the Correct Link for On War 66

and On War 67 - Working for the Grossergeneralstabb

That's german for the Great General Staff..

DNI is a group of renegade DIA/CIA intelligence analysts and Pentagon service types that is widely read by policy professionals in Washington

I have been linking them and discussing them for some time..

If you want to know what is going to happen in the Great BUsh Bungle tommorrow, read DNI today

Then you will see why I believe as I have maintained now for a couple of years that these guys are determined on one thing - REGIME CHANGE..

The CIA is a part of it Thoughtful..just one part...

5655. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:46:25 PM

No foresight is 20-20..

EVERYTHING we know now was known before the war began and in point of fact, was posted right here by me

PelleNilson got so pissed that he 86'ed me for telling the truth right as the war began..
But in point of fact, I was right..I was right against any and all comers..I was right in all respects..

Check back..

and bring it on..

5656. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 10:47:15 PM

"without multilateral cover"

Let me couple this with jexster's question, "Is the US better off?"

At times, you simply have to make tough decisions that are already known to be unpopular. I think that is precisely what happened in Iraq. Personally, if the coalition waited for the UN, we would have NEVER removed Saddam. That is my honest belief, and that is why I supported the forceful removal of him.

This ain't no popularity contest. Is the US better off? I don't suppose we are, but then, I really don't care what the world opinion of us is. At times you have to act the way you think best, regardless of who comes on board with you.

And besides, if people are going to hate you, they are going to hate you. There will always be reasons they can come up with to do it.

I don't care who would have been in the Oval Office. I would have approved of the invasion. And I don't care who is in it now (for argument's sake, if it were a Democratic Prez), despite the problems and difficulties, I would still support him for this decision.

5657. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:47:47 PM

This guy Lind is as conservative as they come and a respected military historian...

I learnt back in my days as a Vietnam War protester and member of the Tulane Libearation Front (we liberated the Student Union and closed the campus) that the deadliest WMD isn't Jane Fonda..its the military..

That's why I mentored-up with a then young PhD from the University of Chicago, birthplace of the neocons and pal of Perle and Wolfowitz..child of Albert and Roberta Wholstetter...

Damn this must be what they meant by "second childhood'!

5658. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:49:50 PM

Whether its theology, defense policy, foreign affairs politics, law or Bush I make it a practice NEVER to talk about things I know nothing about and when confronted with someone who obviously has something to tell me that I did not know I LISTEN...

But I do not suffer fools gladly..

5659. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:51:13 PM

Of all the persons who have dared to play in the Fray/Mote..JRoth is the only person I would listen to on the subject of national security matters..sad to say

5660. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:52:22 PM

Let me couple this with jexster's question, "Is the US better off?"

At times, you simply have to make tough decisions that are already known to be unpopular. I think that is precisely what happened in Iraq. Personally, if the coalition waited for the UN, we would have NEVER removed Saddam

So what?

Answer the question!

5661. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 10:53:21 PM

This ain't no popularity contest. Is the US better off? I don't suppose we are, but then, I really don't care what the world opinion of us is. At times you have to act the way you think best, regardless of who comes on board with you.

Hooligan,

It's not a matter of "world opinion." It's rather that this country has been weakened in every aspect of its ability to project power overseas, is now more dangerously isolated (and distrusted) than at any other time in its history, is forced to singlehandedly shovel billions and billions of dollars into a hole where they are never coming back - even at a time of economic uncertainty and while running the largest deficit in history.

Plus, of course, the military has been stretched to its limits - and the world knows it - even as there are real and implacable foes that need to be confronted.

5662. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:53:29 PM

1. Saddam was NO threat to the region

2. Saddam was NO threat to the US

3. As a result of Bush's invasion, the US has lost

5663. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:56:27 PM

Just open your eyes..what is happening now in Iraq is a disaster...it was all forseeable..Gen Clarke laid it all out n September..The CIA did...The Army War College did...The Center for Strategic and Intenational Studies did..Anatol Lieven Did..the Carnegie Institute did..I did...

When the Iraq Investigation group meets and holds hearings, there is one phrase you will NOT hear very often if you hear it at all

"20/20 Hindsight"

Check the posts..read ALL of them

I TOLD YOU SO

5664. Jenerator - 5/19/2004 10:58:40 PM

It's not a matter of "world opinion." It's rather that this country has been weakened in every aspect of its ability to project power overseas, is now more dangerously isolated (and distrusted) than at any other time in its history, is forced to singlehandedly shovel billions and billions of dollars into a hole where they are never coming back - even at a time of economic uncertainty and while running the largest deficit in history.

This is exactly what the terrorsists want for the US and for the world to believe. If they can isolate us in the War on Terror, then we're weaker.

I say the Burg's decapitation was strictly a calculated PR move against America and American interests. Instead of looking at how wrong the decapitation was (and did any press actually dissect the religious message??), we're all looking at how bad war is, and that we shouldn't be at war to begin with. What about the fact that the people we're fighting against are the ones who decapitate innocents!!?? Burg's decapitation is the reason we're at war.

5665. jexster - 5/19/2004 10:59:13 PM

Helpful hint...you're search will be easier and the list shorter if you look for posts where I was wrong

I have taken a lot of crap

From now on..only prisoners

5666. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 10:59:55 PM

How long was Saddam in power?

Anyone who thought that you could overthrow him and overnight have a new country with no problems was just nuts. I think what is happening now is understandable and was to be expected, and we should be attempting to support the people over there who are honestly attempting to make Iraq a better place.

Throwing stones doesn't help anybody.

5667. KuligintheHooligan - 5/19/2004 11:00:51 PM

"Burg's decapitation is the reason we're at war."

Very well put.

5668. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 11:01:26 PM

I say that you should stick to fantasies about demon possession, Jenerator.

Because this nauseatingly boring tripe about "that's what the terrorists want" is barely worth the effort required to scroll past it.

5669. Jenerator - 5/19/2004 11:03:31 PM

Again I repeat, the Muslims did not decapitate Burg because of the prisoner abuse scandal. Anyone who believes that is why they killed him is naive.

5670. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 11:07:24 PM

"Burg's decapitation is the reason we're at war."

Odd. Because I figure that Berg's decapitation would never had happened if the US had not first invaded Iraq and then created a maelstrom of instability and insurgency in that country.

Because, see, I don't see his classmates in PA having their heads lopped off by terrorists.

5671. jexster - 5/19/2004 11:13:48 PM

My heart overflowing with schaedenfreude

5672. Jenerator - 5/19/2004 11:14:11 PM

Why was Daniel Pearl executed?

5673. jexster - 5/19/2004 11:15:19 PM

and poor Nick berg! he believed Bush's lies..he went over there to build Bush's Great US Empire..an empire now in ruins...

Lies have consequences..

Or as Nick's dad put it "My son died for the sins of Bush and Cheney"

5674. jexster - 5/19/2004 11:18:36 PM

See Zarkawi?

He was protected in Kurd territory by US planes..The US Army wanted to kill him..Bush said no

Moral: Don't lose your head for GWB

5675. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 11:21:53 PM

A confluence of unfortunate circumstances, most likely including his own investigative prowess which led him to facts that Al Qaeda, Pakistan and the Bushites all find uncomfortable and worthy of suppression.

Al Qaeda seems to have carried out the execution, the Musharraf government has then gone out of its way to make sure that the killers do not fall into American hands to spill the beans, and the Bushites have tried as hard as possible to keep the lid on all of it.

But Pearl was a worthy man, from all accounts. A hard-working and meritorious man who was doing his difficult job in a very very nasty part of the world.

Berg was a hapless and idealistic youth, who foolishly bought his government's propaganda and set off free-lance into a place which his the Bushitest have rendered completely unsafe for Americans.

Attempts to make comparisions between the two are usually crude and meaningless, the only real similarity is the manner of the killing.

5676. marjoribanks - 5/19/2004 11:22:32 PM

The above is in response to 5672.

5677. alistairConnor - 5/19/2004 11:23:50 PM

Why was Daniel Pearl executed?

because there are crazy people (religious fundamentalists, same thing) who hate Jews and Americans.

Now they are running free all over Iraq. With respect to the war on terror, the invasion of Iraq was, uncontroversially, a giant leap backward.

5678. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/19/2004 11:30:22 PM

The tragedy of misguided fools is one of the hardest things to witness. That video will never leave your memory, once seen.

5679. Wombat - 5/19/2004 11:39:27 PM

The Bush administration has consistently played into the hands of Islamicist terrorist supporters since the invasion of Iraq. Now we are at the point were our actions will inspire them, no matter what we do.

5680. arkymalarky - 5/20/2004 12:46:10 AM

Iraq was not a terrorist state. It could easily become a chaotic one that will be difficult if not impossible for the US to control in the foreseeable future.

Had Bush been interested in the War on Terror, he'd have put maximum resources into it and focused as much as possible on Al Qaeda with maximum international assistance. Had he understood that post-invasion planning is crucial in an invasion of a long-standing dictatorship he'd have put more resources and planning into the Iraqi invasion to ensure more stability and a more controllable environment while a clear transition process was implemented. Since he didn't do any of that and shows no indication of even beginning to move that direction, Americans are worse off than before and there is no indication that will change any time soon, and none of it has zip to do with the War on Terror.

There is no plan, no process, no progression toward economic and political stability, no clear idea of who if anyone is even minding the store. I don't see how anyone can defend what's going on in Iraq as good for them or us, or suggest that it will be in the future, since there's no indication whatsoever that anything is being done with an eye to Iraq's future.

It's the most incompetent execution of administrative policy I've ever seen.

5681. SnowOwl - 5/20/2004 2:36:27 AM

Is beheading so much worse than being beaten to death?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220829,00.html

ABC News broadcast the images of two officers - named in its report as specialists Charles Graner and Sabrina Harman - smiling and giving the "thumbs up" over the bruised and bloodied corpse of an Iraqi identified as Manadel al-Jamadi.

The detainee was allegedly beaten to death by CIA or civilian interrogators in the showers of the notorious Abu Ghraib prison.

ABC cited evidence from another officer, Specialist Jason Kenner, who claimed Mr al-Jamadi was brought to the prison by US navy seals "in good health". But Spc Kenner said the detainee died after being taken into the showers. He said there was extensive bruising on his body.

If I had to choose I might prefer decapitation. At the very least it would be quicker.

5682. robertjayb - 5/20/2004 2:42:06 AM

Among the brilliant fools: Douglas Feith...(Slate)

Why is Feith involved with all these foul-ups? How could one man be so consistently in error? Nearly every critique of the Pentagon's plan for Iraq's occupation blames the blinkers imposed by ideology. For example, The New Yorker reported last fall that Feith intentionally excluded experts with experience in postwar nation-building, out of fear that their pessimistic, worst-case scenarios would leak and damage the case for war. In the Atlantic earlier this year, James Fallows told a similar story: The Pentagon did not participate in CIA war games about the occupation, because "it could be seen as an 'antiwar' undertaking" that "weakened the case for launching a 'war of choice.' " The State Department's Future of Iraq Project, an effort that accurately predicted some contingencies that the Pentagon overlooked, was dismissed by Feith and company out of hand.

5683. jayackroyd - 5/20/2004 3:08:38 AM

Anyone who thought that you could overthrow him and overnight have a new country with no problems was just nuts.

Yes. That is, of course, the point. The notion that you could simply install Chalabi and declare victory is at the heart of the administration's manifest failure.

5684. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:16:45 AM

Cole:Martin and Malcolm, Chalabi and Muqtada

An informed Iraqi Shiite writes:

" 1.Chalabi is setting himself up to be Martin Luther King to Muqtada's Malcolm X. I predict he will head to Najaf soon to mediate.

"2. You are absolutely right: Muqtada has won, and alive or dead the movement he has sponsored will keep fighting the American forces until they leave. ...

We shall overcome..
Oh deep in my heart
I do believe..

5685. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:17:24 AM

How long was Saddam in power?

1979

5686. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:26:21 AM

According to NewsHour the military took Chalabi out without informing DumbsFeld...

The coup is coming soon...

Operation Weed the Garten

5687. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:31:46 AM

1.
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome some day

CHORUS:
Oh, deep in my heart
I do believe
We shall overcome some day

2.We'll walk hand in hand
We'll walk hand in hand
We'll walk hand in hand some day

CHORUS

3.
We shall all be free
We shall all be free
We shall all be free some day

CHORUS

4.
We are not afraid
We are not afraid
We are not afraid some day

CHORUS

5.
We are not alone
We are not alone
We are not alone some day

CHORUS

6.
The whole wide world around
The whole wide world around
The whole wide world around some day

CHORUS

7.
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome some day

5688. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:35:24 AM

History will record the Sayyid Muqtada Al-Sadr was the first hero of the Islamic Revoloution in Iraq. Juan Cole 5/20/04

to maintain a prolonged foreign occupation of Iraq is to destabilize it only further. Once the invader departs, there will no doubt be a civil war, which will accelerate the dismemberment of the nation, giving rise to a fundamentalist regime, which will make at least some people miss the era of Saddam.

On the other hand, if the occupation persists, one can foresee a multifaceted terrorist escalation eating away at U.S. forces and aggravating ethnic and religious divisions. The Americans will bring in reinforcements, including Fijians and Norwegians. They'll talk of the final fifteen minutes and of last gasps. A coup d'etat or uprising will be inspired in Teheran (terrain more favorable to the West than Iraq is) but with irritating repercussions in Najaf, which will be transformed into a base of retreat for vengeful ayatollahs. The Americans will cling to Iraq as "useful" and ensconce themselves inside supposedly unbreachable bastions. From "Americans, If You Only Knew," by Regis Debray, published in the September 5, 2003 Le Figaro

5689. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:37:33 AM

Athe Muslims did not decapitate Burg because of the prisoner abuse scandal. Anyone who believes that is why they killed him is naive

Is this from BushWorld or personal knowlege...Sure they did...look at the timing...

But the guys who did it, Bush refused to kill so he could invade..

George W. Bush is a liar, murderer and a war criminal.

Were I not opposed to the death penalty, I would urge he be hanged for his crimes against humanity

5690. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:41:48 AM

Dead Wedding Party

Father of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq

5691. jexster - 5/20/2004 3:44:49 AM

My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this..

And his blood cries out from the ground

5692. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/20/2004 4:49:57 AM

This guy had a mother . . .

5693. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/20/2004 5:33:23 AM

5694. Roy Bean - 5/20/2004 6:01:54 AM

Anyone else think those terrorists who killed Berg look awfully fat, white and wearing bullet proof vests.....

Not to mention Berg is in an Abu Ghraib uniform and "Zarqawi" hooded himself and then announced who he was?

5695. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:08:24 AM

Mr Marshall.

Even as Juan Cole records this comment from an Iraqi Shiite friend, Operation Weed The Garden is underway:

History will record the Sayyid Muqtada Al-Sadr was the first hero of the Islamic Revoloution in Iraq.

According Richard Holbrooke on NewsHour the military took Chalabi out without informing Rumsfeld.

ong ago predicted and now coming to pass, this is the final stage of the professional intelligence class's operation to take out the neocons. Breaking into Chalabi's quarters without arresting him makes no sense otherwise.

Chalabi knows where ALL the bodies are buried. Chalabi, as my naval capt. grandfather used to put it, "is as mean as goats' guts". The military moved against Chalabi and left him wounded, left him angry and very dangerous.

These are truly historic times we are living in, historic and quite perilous.

5696. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:11:41 AM

THAT is an awfully provocative comment there Judge..

Ya know, that orange jumpsuit looks like standard issue LAHOJJ (hall of justice jail) as well as 850 Bryant here

Maybe Zakarwi picked some up wholesale!

The USG is coming apart ...it pays to think waaay out of the box these days...

5697. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:11:43 AM

5698. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:17:17 AM

Ahhh nothing like money well spent ...

According to a new GAO report, from March 2000 to September 2003, the State Department doled out some $33 million to Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress.

You can see the highlights of the report here and the whole deal here.

Of course, by a rather more expansive, though not unjust, measure, we dropped around $300 billion on our association with the Chalabi crew.

-- Josh Marshall

(May 20, 2004 -- 07:12 PM EDT // link // print)
In Slate this afternoon, Chris Suellentrop, has a short profile of Doug Feith, the man who put the FU in the FUBAR that is the American adventure in Iraq. The subheading of the piece pretty much says it all: "What has the Pentagon's third man done wrong? Everything."

Feith has become the living, breathing, employed example of the fact that epochal screw-ups are the best source of job security within the Bush administration.

If anything, I'd say Chris lets Feith off a bit easy on several counts. But then, consider the source (i.e., me).
.

-- Josh Marshall

.

5699. Roy Bean - 5/20/2004 6:22:44 AM

I don't hold much credence to the conspiracy theories floating around but wanted to get your take on them.

Fresh new horrors on drudge report right now, by the way. :(

5700. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:25:54 AM

In the category of articles you should not miss: Take a look at Wes Clark's new piece in The Washington Monthly on democracy, the Middle East and the how the Bush administration failed to understand how either works.

-- Josh Marshall

Wes Clark is part of the operation...the Pentagon flank

5701. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:27:42 AM

I believe Oswald acted alone and UFO's are weather balloons.

This is no THEORY....we're beyond theory...the Operation is underway...The Financial Times has picked up on it. I think the WashPost has too...I know Marshall has.

5702. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:30:00 AM

This as close to a coup d'etat as is possible and still be legal.

And it has begun to unfold in its primary dimensions. Make no mistake about it

5703. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:32:37 AM

General Wesley Clark
"Broken Engagement"

5704. jexster - 5/20/2004 6:35:17 AM

During 2002 and early 2003, Bush administration officials put forth a shifting series of arguments for why we needed to invade Iraq. Nearly every one of these has been belied by subsequent events. We have yet to find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq; assuming that they exist at all, they obviously never presented an imminent threat. Saddam's alleged connections to al Qaeda turned out to be tenuous at best and clearly had nothing to do with September 11. The terrorists now in Iraq have largely arrived because we are there, and Saddam's security forces aren't. And peace between Israel and the Palestinians, which prominent hawks argued could be achieved "only through Baghdad," seems further away than ever.

5705. jexster - 5/20/2004 7:34:10 AM

Respect for Marriage Acts

'US soldiers shot us, one by one'
Survivors describe wedding massacre as generals refuse to apologise.

The wedding feast was finished and the women had just led the young bride and groom away to their marriage tent for the night when Haleema Shihab heard the first sounds of the fighter jets screeching through the sky above.

GW ButcherOfBaghdad Claims an entire family..

Family values...

Pray for Bush's dead.

All that remains of his family

5706. Roy Bean - 5/20/2004 8:45:49 AM

They got Chalabi's computer. All kinds of stuff could be on that hard drive.

IMO what we're seeing is (State Dept + regular Army) vs. (Defense civilian appointees + Military Intelligence).

5707. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:00:52 AM

Go Down Ahmed
Let My People GO!

no Iraqi leader has had more to do with the U.S. intervention in Iraq than Chalabi....

Chalabi insisted yesterday that he is still "America's best friend in Iraq," although he later told reporters that he is severing ties with the U.S.-led coalition government and now wants to see Iraq liberated.

"Let my people go," he said. "It is time for the Iraqi people to run their affairs."

5708. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:05:04 AM

You don't take his computer and put a gun to his without taking him OUT, unless.............

You never wanted to take him out in the first place...

And they didn't tell Rummy about it...about taking out Dumbsfeld & Co.'s no.1 resource in building their stack of lies and around whom they built they're plans for a New Iraq...

They gave him a militia, they gave him 300 million bucks. They gave him one of Saddam's fanciest palaces for his headquarters. They let him take the files of Saddam's secret police.

No if you shoot a wild animal like Chalabi, you shoot to kill, unless.....

You didn't mean to kill him.

5709. jexster - 5/20/2004 4:52:16 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq (Reuters) - One U.S. soldier and two Iraqi civilians were killed when a roadside bomb exploded in the Baghdad area, the U.S. military said Friday

5710. jexster - 5/20/2004 4:58:14 PM

5711. jexster - 5/20/2004 5:00:57 PM

13 Detainees Detail Torture in Bush Gulag

5712. robertjayb - 5/20/2004 5:47:27 PM

Robin Wright's WashPost article on Chalabi and friends. (Questions: Will the neocons stand by their man? Will Ahmad again stand with Laura Bush as at the State of the Union address?

5713. robertjayb - 5/20/2004 6:46:26 PM

Man, when the neocons turn on someone, they go hard and heavy...

BAGHDAD, Iraq — (Fox News) - U.S. officials believe they have "rock solid" evidence that Iraqi Governing Council member Ahmad Chalabi (search), once a darling of the American government, passed secrets to Iran, Fox News has learned.

"There is no need for an investigation because we're quite certain he did it," one senior Bush administration official said.

The official first described the evidence against Chalabi as "pretty solid" and then characterized it as "rock solid."

5714. robertjayb - 5/20/2004 7:57:35 PM

A Josh Marshall reader has questions about Chalabi.

Where did he get the intelligence to leak? Who gave Chalabi the leaked classified information?
Was it lawful to provide Chalabi with classified USG military information that included such things as where our troops were and what they were doing?
Who is under investigation as a result of the intercepts of the Iranians discussing the intelligence provided by Chalabi? Who are the investigators? Has this been referred to the Department of Justice?
Did his provision of that information to Iran result in the death of US soldiers in Shi'ia areas?
Are the intel leaks the reason for the raids of Chalabi's home?
Are the intel leaks the reason they cut off his income?
Why did the USG say that Chalabi was not a "target" of the raids on his home? (It's possible other members of his family are the ones who are being used directly to provide the intel to Iran.)

Hmmmm. Who were Chalabi's US government interlocutors? What a mystery ...

5715. jexster - 5/20/2004 8:01:55 PM

George W. Bush - War Criminal
Prison Torture Plan Came Down from the Very Top- Slate

Fred Kaplan writes, "Bush knew about it. Rumsfeld ordered it. Steven Cambone administered it. Lt. Gen. William Boykin, instructed Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who had been executing the program involving al-Qaida suspects at Guantanamo, to go do the same at Abu Ghraib. Miller told Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who was in charge of the 800th Military Brigade, that the prison would now be dedicated to gathering intelligence. Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy, also seems to have had a hand in this sequence, as did William Haynes, the Pentagon's general counsel. Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, learned about the improper interrogations... but said or did nothing about it for two months, until it was clear that photographs were coming out. Meanwhile, those involved in the interrogations included officers from military intelligence, the CIA, and private contractors, as well as the mysterious figures from the Pentagon's secret operation."

5716. jexster - 5/20/2004 8:09:20 PM

The very last lie to die...Better Off Than Under Saddam..

Iraqis Say Never Has It Been This Bad - Not Even under
Saddam

Washpost: "Iraqi political leaders expressed anger and despair over the inability of U.S. authorities to stem the relentless violence gripping Iraq as they paid tribute to the slain president of the country's Governing Council. Othman, who is generally pro-American, described the
assassination as only the most extreme example of the lawlessness that has grown in the year since Saddam Hussein was driven from power.

'Never in Iraq has it been like this -- never, even under Saddam,' he said.

'People are killed, kidnapped and assaulted; children are taken away; women are raped. Nobody is afraid of any punishment.' The anger among Iraqis normally favorable toward the Americans' efforts in Iraq was expressed after a solemn memorial service for Salim, who was killed with six other Iraqis as they waited to enter the compound that houses the occupation headquarters."

5717. jexster - 5/20/2004 8:09:33 PM

Victims of US Attack on Wedding Party Saw Children Decapitated, Villagers Systematically Slaughtered

Guardian: " 'The bombing started at 3am,' she said yesterday from her bed in the emergency ward at Ramadi general hospital, 60 miles west of Baghdad. 'We went out of the house and the American soldiers started to shoot us. They were shooting low on the ground and targeting us one by one.' She ran with her youngest child in her arms and her two young boys, Ali and Hamza, close behind. As she crossed the fields a shell exploded close to her, fracturing her legs and knocking her to the ground.

She lay there and a second round hit her on the right arm. By then her two boys lay dead. One, she saw, had been decapitated by a shell.

'I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me. My youngest child was alive next to me.' Mrs Shibab's description, backed by other witnesses, of an attack on a sleeping village is at odds with the American claim that they came under fire while targeting a suspected foreign fighter safe house."

5718. jexster - 5/20/2004 8:13:19 PM

The time has come to speak very frankly about the lack of leadership in the White House. "So the emperor has no clothes.

When are people going to face the reality? Pull the curtain back [Bush is] an "incompetent leader'' who lacks the judgment, experience or knowledge to make good decisions.''

5719. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/20/2004 8:47:32 PM

5720. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:30:44 PM

Check it out Thougthful, Judge Roy!

Black Op: "Regime Change Through Better Gardening"

Iraq Governing Council Slams U.S. for Chalabi Raid"

BAGHDAD, Iraq (Reuters) - Members of Iraq (news - web sites)'s Governing Council condemned Friday a raid on the house and offices of Washington's former top Iraq ally Ahmad Chalabi and said it was orchestrated by the U.S.-led administration.

Three officials who attended a meeting of the U.S.-appointed Governing Council told Reuters its members held the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) responsible for Thursday's raid

5721. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:31:23 PM

.

The council would demand an explanation from the authority, two of the officials said.

"Everybody agreed that the CPA was behind it," said one.

Another person present at the meeting and who has little personal sympathy for Chalabi said: "Whatever I think of him, it's not right to go bursting into people's bedrooms."

The CPA has said the raid was ordered by an Iraqi judge and that U.S. forces were present only as backup.

The raids, in which soldiers and police sealed off the neighborhood where Chalabi lives, escalated a confrontation between the U.S.-led occupation authority and the man whose Pentagon (news - web sites) connections once hinted at a top role in Iraq.

An Iraqi investigating magistrate involved in the case said Thursday that people sought for questioning had kidnapped and tortured Iraqis, in addition to misappropriating government property.

CPA officials have also said Chalabi was running his own independent investigation of the U.N. oil-for-food corruption scandal, a charge disputed by members of the Governing Council, who say he is representing them in the probe.

Some members of the council, which is to be dissolved on June 30 when Washington formally transfers sovereignty to Iraqis, said they were prepared to resign over the raids, people who attended the meeting said. (Additional reporting by Michael Georgy and Joseph Logan)

5722. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:22:01 PM

The Tony Blair Death watch...

1. Birmingham Post, May 21, 2004, Friday, Post Edition; Pg. 8, 519 words, MINISTERS TOLD NOT TO CRITICISE BUSH OPENLY, JON SMITH
2. DAILY MAIL (London), May 21, 2004, 482 words, LET'S SEE YOU STAND UP TO BUSH, HOWARD TAUNTS BLAIR, PAUL EASTHAM DEPUTY POLITICAL EDITOR
3. THE DAILY TELEGRAPH(LONDON), May 21, 2004, Friday, Pg. 15, 607 words, Blair defends secret diplomacy with Bush, By George Jones Political Editor

14. The Independent (London), May 21, 2004, Friday, First Edition; COMMENT; Pg. 34, 233 words, LETTER: THE TIME TO STAND UP TO BUSH WAS YEARS AGO, JEREMY HICKS

15. The Independent (London), May 21, 2004, Friday, First Edition; NEWS; Pg. 4, 693 words, IRAQ CRISIS: THIS TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE CREATES STRANGE BEDFELLOWS, ANDREW GRICE

17. The Independent (London), May 21, 2004, Friday, First Edition; COMMENT; Pg. 31, 1180 words, HOWARD MAY BE AN OPPORTUNIST, BUT WE SHOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER HIS CRITICISMS; IRAQ: REACTION TO YESTERDAY'S ARTICLE BY THE TORY LEADER, ROBIN COOK

5723. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:22:09 PM

18. The Independent (London), May 21, 2004, Friday, First Edition; COMMENT; Pg. 31, 867 words, THEY HAD THE CHEEK TO CALL ME CHARLIE CHAMBERLAIN'; IRAQ: REACTION TO YESTERDAY'S ARTICLE BY THE TORY LEADER, CHARLES KENNEDY

19. The Independent (London), May 21, 2004, Friday, First Edition; COMMENT; Pg. 32, 233 words, LETTER: THE TIME TO STAND UP TO BUSH WAS YEARS AGO, JEREMY HICKS

20. The Independent, May 21, 2004, 658 words, IRAQ CRISIS: TORY LEADER'S U-TURN' DRAWS STORM OF PROTEST, Andrew Grice Political Editor

21. The Irish Times, May 21, 2004, CITY EDITION; WORLD NEWS; Pg. 15, 527 words, Criticism of Blair incurs wrath of White House, By FRANK MILLAR, LONDON

23. The Times (London), May 21, 2004, Friday, Home news; 13, 379 words, Howard defends attack on Blair over Iraq, Rosemary Bennett, Philip Webster and Tom Baldwin

24. UK Newsquest Regional Press - This is Worcestershire, May 21, 2004, 160 words, Hundreds of our troops have died - and for what?, Worcestershire

5724. jexster - 5/20/2004 10:32:10 PM

"What do you call a tyrant who loses his allies?"

Can you say George W. Bush?

5725. alistairConnor - 5/20/2004 11:01:33 PM

The Americans will bring in reinforcements, including Fijians and Norwegians.

Even allowing for Debray's grandiloquent hyperbole, I must protest, on behalf of the Fijians and the Norwegians.

5726. wonkers2 - 5/20/2004 11:31:45 PM

George Bush to the troops in Iraq: "Many of you may be wounded or even lose your lives. But that is a sacrifice I am prepared to make."

5727. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/20/2004 11:42:54 PM

Thucyydides’ Conclusions about Human Nature In War Time

The conclusions Thucydides reaches about human nature from his analysis of the revolt at Corcyra are not very positive. He begins by saying "Death thus raged in every shape; and, as usually happens at such times, there was no length to which violence did not go" (Thucydides 3.81.5) and then goes on to describe in particular how people's actions and opinions changed. He says that "Words had to change their ordinary meaning and to take that which was now given them" (Thucydides 3. 82.4) because what had once been considered extreme and unreasonable behavior was know considered accepted. As an example, he offers the fact that "Reckless audacity came to be considered the courage of a loyal ally; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice" (Thucydides 3.82.4). He believes that human nature suffers greatly during a revolution, that the worst side of people is revealed. Rational during peace, "but war takes away the easy supply of daily wants, and so proves a rough master, that brings most men's characters to a level with their fortunes" (Thucydides 3.82.2). Thucydides describes the revolution at Corcyra, exams the evidence provided by careful observation, and from there draws the conclusion that "human nature, always rebelling against the law and now its master, gladly showed itself ungoverned in passion, above respect for justice, and the enemy of all superiority" (Thucydides 3.84.2)

Some things never change wrt cowards and war.

5728. jexster - 5/21/2004 4:02:11 AM

And Bush's hourglass is nearly empty...

Make no mistake the high ranking professional service in the State Dept, the CIA, and the military are out to burn some bush..

Make no mistake...just read this address to the Trustees of the Foreign Service Assn..

You know how recklessly a cabal of political appointees and ideological zealots, led by the exceptionally powerful and furtively doctrinaire Vice President Cheney, corrupted intelligence and usurped policy on Iraq and other issues. You know the bitter departmental disputes in which a deeply politicized, parochial Pentagon overpowered or simply ignored any opposition in the State Department or the CIA, rushing us to unilateral aggressive war in Iraq and chaotic, fateful occupations in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You know well what a willfully uninformed and heedless president you serve in Bush, how chilling are the tales of his ignorance and sectarian fervor, lethal opposites of the erudition and open-mindedness you embody in the arts of diplomacy and intelligence.... You know the specifics...

There is NO line of retreat open to him now...

5729. jexster - 5/21/2004 4:03:33 AM

What is Debray's story AC?

5730. jexster - 5/21/2004 4:07:13 AM

As you have seen in years of service, every presidency has its arrogance, infighting and blunders in foreign relations. As most of you recognize, too, the Bush administration is like no other. You serve the worst foreign policy regime by far in the history of the republic. The havoc you feel inside government has inflicted unprecedented damage on national interests and security. As never before since the United States stepped onto the world stage, we have flouted treaties and alliances, alienated friends, multiplied enemies, lost respect and credibility on every continent. You see this every day. And again, whatever your politics, those of you who have served other presidents know this is an unparalleled bipartisan disaster. In its militant hubris and folly, the Bush administration has undone the statesmanship of every government before it, and broken faith with every presidency, Democratic and Republican (even that of Bush I), over the past half century

5731. jexster - 5/21/2004 4:09:33 AM

That my friends was a pep talk to the troops because the main offensive has begun..

It began with the "raid" on Chalabi..

That was no raid..

That was the artillery barrage that signaled the start of the Main Operation.

5732. jexster - 5/21/2004 4:11:36 AM

5733. jexster - 5/21/2004 5:03:02 AM

George Bush's Gulag of Freedom

Kully...a fool is born every minute...but the birth rate for your kind is way too low to keep this Liar in office....

WASHINGTON - Memos written by top Justice Department (news - web sites) lawyers for the Pentagon (news - web sites) in early 2002 laid out legal reasons why the United States did not have to comply with international treaties regarding the treatment of prisoners.

One key draft memo, dated Jan. 9, 2002, states that the normal laws of armed conflict, including the Geneva Conventions, do not apply to al-Qaida and Taliban militia prisoners. The memo calls these groups "non-state actors" who should not be considered a party to international treaties governing war conduct.

While the memos were written before the war in Iraq (news - web sites), they authorized methods of interrogation for the Afghanistan (news - web sites) conflict that some human rights organizations have said laid the legal groundwork for the violations seen months later at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and elsewhere.

5734. robertjayb - 5/21/2004 5:42:01 AM

Political Animal posts the views of former CENTCOM commanders.

General Joseph Hoar, 1991-1994: "Paul Wolfowitz is a very bright guy, but he doesn't know anything about war-fighting, and I suspect he knows less about counterinsurgency operations....I think that the neo-conservatives had their day, by selling to the President the need for invasion of Iraq. I think it's now time for a clean sweep—and it has been for some time, in my judgment—to get rid of these people."

General Anthony Zinni, 1997-2000: He believes the neocons, including Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense, have hijacked U.S. foreign policy: "In the lead-up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw, at minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility; at worst, lying, incompetence and corruption."

General Tommy Franks, 2000-2003: Doug Feith is "the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth."

General Binford Peay III, CENTCOM commander from 1994-1997, seems to have maintained a studious silence about the conduct of the war, perhaps understandable since he's now the chairman of the board of a defense contractor that, among other things, provides ammunition for the Army's Stryker brigades.

Still, that's a pretty remarkable record, isn't it? Three of the past four CENTCOM commanders, the guys who probably understand the military requirements of a war in the Middle East better than any other humans on the planet, think the people who planned this war are completely incompetent. Quite an accomplishment.

5735. jexster - 5/21/2004 11:34:28 AM

Five killed in bombing, coalition bogged down with controversy

I exaggerate.

AFP uses "nose-dive"

next level: "crash and burn" or "in the toilet"

5736. jexster - 5/21/2004 11:48:05 AM

Yea Robert that's easy for them to say, stupid is as stupid does, they don't have to lead Amuruhkuh agin Evil..they jiss wawtch..

sides two problems...

1. Where's the Lord in all of this praytell? [praze jaysus!] Yes they may be dummmer than dirt but aren't we all but dust? The Lord God Almighty is guidin their hands and the words in their mouths...Allah HIS NAME BE PRAISED!

2. So what?
We have a CEO Prayze-uh-daynte

and HE is knows what's best for us.

Seems to me that these armchair generals are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Saymes tuh maye anry how

5737. jexster - 5/21/2004 11:50:10 AM

CNN is preparing a special on lies the military has told us

It took the US about 6-7 years to get to this point in the toilet during Vietnam - Texas President

Took this one less than a year!

You guys fight like Santana

5738. jexster - 5/21/2004 11:57:15 AM

Santa Ana...I always FORGET the Alamo - the paradigm of Texis militarism

5739. alistairConnor - 5/21/2004 2:29:04 PM

What is Debray's story AC?

Revolutionary activist in the 60s - I believe he actually spent some time with Che Guevara in his stupid Bolivian adventure - became an establisment Mitterandite in the 80s - suffered an illumination in the 90s and converted to Gaullism - written lots of books - involved in a lot of high-level diplomacy over the past couple of decades - lately, instrumental in getting Aristide out of Haiti alive, probably more than the corrupt little fucker deserves, but Debray says he did it out of friendship.

5740. jexster - 5/21/2004 2:36:13 PM

THAT's what I didn't get...the leap from Che to Le Grand Charles... madness is a sign of brilliance...foolish consistency and all that..

Debray rox..snotty Frenchman

5741. jexster - 5/21/2004 2:36:48 PM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Several loud blasts sounded across central Baghdad on Saturday, not far from the "Green Zone" headquarters of the U.S.-led administration, witnesses said.

5742. jexster - 5/21/2004 2:45:36 PM

In any case, Debray sure NAILED Bush and Iraq!

This is very serious...my PAL activist friend is a Greek Orthodox...you ought to see the look on his face as he contemplates the REAL WORLD of Bush...

This guy makes his living off of Shia History, Religion, Culture in South Asia...

GWB: Father of the Shiite International

I said the other day I thought Bush was pushing Europe to the left with his policies. I think he is at the same time pushing the Shiite world to the radical Right, and I fear my grandchildren will still be reaping the whirlwind that George W. Bush is sowing in the city of Imam Husain. I concluded in early April that Bush had lost Iraq. He has by now lost the entire Muslim world.

posted by Juan Cole at 5/22/2004 07:14:40 AM

Just like Regis said last September

5743. jexster - 5/21/2004 3:20:06 PM

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry..

Bush to Outline 'Clear Strategery' for Iraq Monday

One thing I do know...I am not going to waste my time watching the farce

5744. robertjayb - 5/21/2004 6:02:36 PM

Riverbend on Chalabi...

I always enjoy a good Chalabi interview. His answers to questions are always so completely antagonistic to Iraqi public opinion that the whole thing makes a delightful show- rather like a vicious Chihuahua in the midst of a dozen bulldogs.
................................................

Of course, several things occurred to us, after hearing of the raid. The first thing I thought was, "Well, it's about time…" Then, as the news began to sink in, it made less since. Chalabi was America's lapdog- why is he suddenly unsuitable for the new Iraq? He was convicted in Jordan several years ago and everyone knows he's a crook and a terrible politician… I'm also convinced that the Bush administration knew full well that he was highly unpopular in Iraq. He's not just a puppet- he's a mercenary.
................................................

We have a saying in Arabic, "En kint tedri, fe tilk musseeba… in kint la tedri, fa il musseebatu a'adham" which means, "If you knew, then that was a catastrophe… and if you didn't know, then the catastrophe is greater."

5745. judithathome - 5/21/2004 6:09:29 PM

That's exactly how I see the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal...if Bush knew this was going on, it is damning but if he didn't know, it's even more so.

5746. Roy Bean - 5/21/2004 7:56:12 PM

If Kerry wins, and if subsequently somehow much more information comes out about what the Bush administration knew and when they knew it about torture. Lets suppose for a moment that it was well known and authorized.

Could it be possible then to see charges against any of the administration officials or sub officials? Or are they immune from that kind of accountability?

I know it's a longshot, but I wonder...

5747. PelleNilsson - 5/21/2004 8:21:02 PM

Well, we understand now why the US was and is so violently opposed to the International Cout of Justice.

5748. jexster - 5/21/2004 8:42:03 PM

Lugar Launches:

Republican Lugar Questions Bush Strategies on War, Diplomacy

U.S. May 21 (Bloomberg) -- Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar said the Bush administration and the Republican Congress are losing the battle against terrorism by spending too much time and money on war rather than diplomacy.

5749. wonkers2 - 5/21/2004 10:48:21 PM

Richard Lugar is a conservative but he is smart and has a lot of integrity. He's not a mindless, rabid, lying conservative like DeLay or Santorum

5750. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/21/2004 11:23:54 PM

Cowards, sooner or later, are exposed by history and I bet Lugar trusts in time.

5751. jayackroyd - 5/21/2004 11:45:39 PM

It's not just that wonk. It's the genius of the founding fathers being expressed. Lugar's term is longer than Bush's, longer than Clinton's. Guys like him, like Lindsey Graham or John McCain are going to have to live with the consequences of this failed administration, well after Bush is long gone. They have to live with the consequences of a Senate treated as a mistrusted foreign power. It was the institutional power of the Senate that ultimately took Nixon down, and, just by the way, stopped the insanity of the Clinton impeachment. Here, given the election cycle, it will introduce a position of decade-long views, rather than next election views.

The senate can live with Kerry. They cannot live with an adminstration that will, for example, not mention that a firestorm is about to break out, five hours after the hearing, on 60 minutes II. It's my guess that that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

5752. jayackroyd - 5/21/2004 11:45:41 PM

5753. wonkers2 - 5/22/2004 12:23:12 AM

Good point. Several other good Republicans in the Senate blocked the Bush budget last week.

5754. jexster - 5/22/2004 12:51:14 AM

Who is Ahmed Chalabi - DNI

Cerastes cerastes (horn viper)

TAXONOMY
Taxonomy database identifier: 8697
Superkingdom Eukaryota
Kingdom Animalia
Subkingdom Metazoa
Phylum Chordata
Subphylum Vertebrata
Superclass Tetrapoda
Class Reptilia
Subclass Lepidosauria
Order Squamata
Suborder Serpentes
Superfamily Colubroidea
Family Viperidae
Subfamily Viperinae

5755. jexster - 5/22/2004 1:00:14 AM

Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth.
Col. Jessep: You can't handle the truth.

Lt. Gen Sanchez Knew

5756. jexster - 5/22/2004 1:38:05 AM

5757. jexster - 5/22/2004 3:15:48 AM

Sarin Shell
Same Old Smell

Lookslike you were right Jay. We have not heard a peep about this lastest WMD find...not a peep.

Why?

Scott Ritter:

If the 155-mm shell was a "dud" fired long ago — which is highly likely — then it would not be evidence of the secret stockpile of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that the Bush administration used as justification to invade Iraq.

[Detailed technical explanation follows of how sarin shells work and how to tell if one has been previously fired.]

Given what's known about sarin shells, the US could be expected to offer a careful recital of the data with news of the shell. B

ut facts that should have accompanied the story — the type of shell, its condition, whether it had been fired previously, and the age and viability of the sarin and precursor chemicals — were absent. And that's opened the door to irresponsible speculation that the shell was part of a live WMD stockpile.

The data — available to the ISG — would put this development in proper perspective — allowing responsible discussion of the event and its possible ramifications.

Another silent, but deadly Bush brain fart

5758. jexster - 5/22/2004 4:29:29 AM

Bush's Rosy Scenario or Whistlin Past the Graveyard

'Americans like to think that every problem has a solution, but that may no longer be true in Iraq,' wrote Galbraith in a recent issue of the New York Review of Books. 'Early in 2005,' believes Galbraith, 'Iraq is likely to see a clash between an elected Shia-dominated central government trying to override the interim constitution in order to impose its will on the entire country, and a Kurdistan government insistent on preserving the de facto independent status that Kurdistan has enjoyed for 13 years.

'Complicating the political struggle is a dispute over the oil-rich province of Kirkuk, involving Kurds, Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, Sunni Turkmen and Shia Turkmen.

'It is a formula for civil war.'

A second version of Galbraith's doomsday scenario was presented last week in a more unexpected place,the Strategic Studies Institute of the US Army's War College, which published a 69-page report entitled 'Iraq and Vietnam: Differences, Similarities and Insights'.

Its authors point to a second fault line in Iraq that they believe could lead to civil war, again with its roots not in the Sunni insurgency in Baghdad and the Sunni Triangle, but within the Shia majority. And author W Andrew Terrill believes that the difficulties being faced in the transition of sovereignty should not be underestimated.

'In Vietnam, we were trying to prop up a government that had little legitimacy. In Iraq, we're trying to weave together a government and support it so it can develop legitimacy. Both are extremely hard to do.

5759. jexster - 5/22/2004 4:29:39 AM

'The main threat to state-building in Iraq lies not in the insurgency in central Iraq but rather in the potential for the recent uprising of Shia militants ..., or the development of the kind of sectarian civil war that plunged Lebanon into near anarchy for almost two decades.

'

This pessimistic outlook is shared by Gareth Stansfield of Exeter University, who has lived in Iraq and is one of the contributing authors to the Royal Institute for International Affairs at Chatham House's own set of scenarios for the future of Iraq, to be published on 28 June.

'If you ask me what are the chances of democracy succeeding in the next few decades, I don't see much chance. So the real question for me is: what kind of state will it be? There is a chance of a dictatorship, but I think the chances of the integrity of the state surviving are about as implausible as democracy.'

5760. jexster - 5/22/2004 5:34:52 AM

Between the Bush/Blair desperate Fantasy and the VERY LIKELY Debray/Galbriath/Record-Terrill Decomposition Scenario lies the McCutchen/Hollis Hope:

Rosemary Hollis, head of the Middle East programme at Chatham House, is among those who doubt whether the future of Iraq is likely to be cut and dried. She agrees, however, that the biggest problems are likely to be encountered in negotiating a new constitution.

'I do not see 30 June as being the be-all and end-all,' says Hollis. 'The major problems lock in only when Iraqis begin trying to devise a permanent constitution, especially negotiating the veto that has been given to the Kurds under the interim Transitional Law and determining the role of religion in the new state.'

Hollis is uncertain, too, as to whether Iraq can now be held together either by the Americans or under the auspices of the UN. 'If the answer to both those questions is no, is the answer then some kind of national movement of liberation that would unify Iraq?'

The answer to that is looking better each day as Bush unites Sunni and Shiite against himself

Let's give it a name:

"The Uniter Not a Divider Scenario"

The outcome, however, is little different from the most pessimistic view...

ISLAMIC STATE opposed to the Likudite/US Empire and bringing that Empire crashing down if the US Elecorate, in its wisdom, doesn't get there first.

Either way - a bloody fucking mess...

I am an American..ever naively hopeful - just like mildred the Wombat - I hope for streams of blood instead of rivers.

5761. Roy Bean - 5/22/2004 6:40:47 AM

Middle East

Berg beheading: No way, say medical experts
By Ritt Goldstein

American businessman Nicholas Berg's body was found on May 8 near a Baghdad overpass; a video of his supposed decapitation death by knife appeared on an alleged al-Qaeda-linked website (www.al-ansar.biz) on May 11. But according to what both a leading surgical authority and a noted forensic death expert separately told Asia Times Online, the video depicting the decapitation appears to have been staged.

"I certainly would need to be convinced it [the decapitation video] was authentic," Dr John Simpson.... Echoing Dr Simpson's criticism, when this journalist asked forensic death expert Jon Nordby, PhD and fellow of the American Board of Medicolegal Death Investigators, whether he believed the Berg decapitation video had been "staged", Nordby replied: "Yes, I think that's the best explanation of it."

.....

Asia TimeArticle

Speaking off the record, intelligence community sources have previously said they believe it "very likely" that al-Zarqawi is indeed long dead.

....

According to e-mails sent from a US consular officer in Baghdad, Beth Payne, to the Berg family, Nick Berg was being held in Iraq "by the US military in Mosul". A May 13 AP report notes that a US State Department spokesperson subsequently said this was untrue, an error, and that Berg was being held by Iraqi authorities. But another May 13 AP report quoted "police chief Major-General Mohammed Khair al-Barhawi" as claiming that reports of Iraqi police having held Berg were "baseless".

And Berg is seen on the beheading videotape in what appears to be US military prison-issue clothing, sitting in what appears to be a US military-type white chair, virtually identical to those photographed as used at Abu Ghraib prison

5762. wonkers2 - 5/22/2004 2:12:31 PM

Didn't Alberto Gonzales, the president's lawyer, offer written advice about how to avoid responsibility for atrocities by having them committed by authorites of other nations and denying that the individual was ever in U.S. custody?

5763. alistairConnor - 5/22/2004 11:38:28 PM

Wake up Israelis... time for regime change

In stark and emotional language, Deputy Prime Minister Yosef Lapid, who also holds the Justice ministry portfolio and is himself a Holocaust survivor, told Israeli radio that the country risked further international condemnation if the army continued its campaign of pursuing Palestinian gunmen, demolishing homes and expelling civilians from the heart of the populous Rafah refugee camp.

"On TV I saw an old woman rummaging through the ruins of her house looking for her medication, and it reminded me of my grandmother who was thrown out of her house during the Shoah" or Holocaust, said Lapid in a radio interview after the weekly cabinet session.

"We look like monsters in the eyes of the world," he added. "This makes me sick."

5764. robertjayb - 5/23/2004 3:17:11 AM

Video of bombed wedding party...

RAMADI, Iraq (AP) - The bride arrives in a white pickup truck and is quickly ushered into a house by a group of women. Outside, men recline on brightly coloured silk pillows, relaxing on the carpeted floor of a large goat-hair tent as boys dance to tribal songs.

The videotape obtained Sunday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people. The dead included the cameraman, Yasser Shawkat Abdullah, hired to record the festivities, which ended Tuesday night before the planes struck.

The U.S. military says it is investigating the attack, which took place in the village of Mogr el-Deeb about eight kilometres from the Syrian border, but that all evidence so far indicates the target was a safehouse for foreign fighters.

5765. jexster - 5/23/2004 3:23:00 AM

The Death of a War Salesman

Iraq Setbacks Bring Grim Mood to Washington

Lawmakers in both parties as well as some military leaders fear the occupation is heading for failure.LA Times

Pat RobertsIraq Setbacks Change Mood in Washington
Lawmakers in both parties as well as some military leaders fear the occupation is heading for failure

Gen Joseph Hoar (Centcom ret) "I believe we are absolutely on the brink of failure. We are looking into the abyss."

Larry Diamond, fomer CPA advisor ""If the current situation persists, we will continue fighting one form of Iraqi insurgency after another — with too little There is only one word for a situation in which you cannot win and you cannot withdraw: Quagmire."

Leslie H. Gelb, a former president of the private Council on Foreign Relations — and a top Pentagon strategist during the Vietnam War — said he had never seen confidence sink as quickly in Washington as it has in recent weeks.

"I've never heard the kind of dark defeatism I'm hearing now, both in and out of government, including the worst days of the Vietnam War," said Gelb, a Democrat. "Support for this war is plummeting. In Vietnam, that happened much more slowly, and only after much higher casualties."

....To counter that spreading sense of disorder and shore up public support, [President] Bush plans to give six major speeches on Iraq in the six weeks remaining before the transfer of sovereignty to the transitional government.

5766. jexster - 5/23/2004 3:23:12 AM

....Officials said there was no immediate sign that Bush was planning to announce any major new initiatives or shifts in policy in Monday's speech. The main theme, one aide said, will be a familiar one: "Stay the course." But it may be delivered in a more sober tone than before.

When in doubt whip out the slogan and deliver 6 batches saccharin sludge.

Worked in 2002!

STAY THE COURSE

5767. jexster - 5/23/2004 3:41:26 AM

NANCY PELOSI:

"Bush is an incompetent leader. In fact, he's not a leader. He's a person who has no judgment, no experience and no knowledge of the subjects that he has to decide upon."

5768. jexster - 5/23/2004 3:51:44 AM

Ahmed Knows a CIA Black Op When He Sees One
Operation Weed the Garden is Underway
Does Bush???

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Ahmad Chalabi, once a favored Iraqi exile of the Bush administration, on Sunday denied accusations that he passed along U.S. secrets to Iran and challenged the CIA director to a duel before Congress.

Some U.S. government officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, have accused Chalabi of giving U.S. intelligence to Iran, which the United States considers to be part of an ``axis of evil.''

``It's not true. It's a false charge,'' Chalabi said on ABC's ``This Week'' television program. ``It's a smear.''

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi called the accusations baseless and said: ``We have not received any classified information, neither from Chalabi nor any member of the Iraqi Governing Council.''
Chalabi on Sunday said he believed the Bush administration had turned on him because while he had favored the U.S.-invasion of Iraq, he opposed the subsequent occupation.

``I have become a person who is calling for complete sovereignty in Iraq,'' he said on ABC.

Chalabi also deflected criticism that he misled the U.S. government before the war by introducing defectors who made a strong case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, the main justification given by the Bush administration for invading Iraq. No stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction have been found since the invasion.

Chalabi said the INC introduced three defectors to U.S. government agencies. ``It was up to them to analyze this (information), and the responsibility for reporting to the president after analyzing the information is not mine,'' Chalabi told ABC.

5769. jayackroyd - 5/23/2004 3:52:09 AM

It's a PR problem.

"Digital cameras, camcorders and cellphones with cameras have been prohibited in military compounds in Iraq," it said, adding that a "total ban throughout the US military" is in the works.

This story is today's third mostly widely emailed Yahoo story. It may be that the profound commitment to secret dealings by adminstration evil doers is beginning to penetrate the general zeitgeist.

5770. jexster - 5/23/2004 4:02:53 AM

"And what will we have? A Bay of Goats, most likely." Gen. Anthony Zinni (USMC ret.) August 24, 2002

Bay of Goats - Dowd 5/23/04

Stay the course

5771. jexster - 5/23/2004 4:12:09 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - accused senior Pentagon (news - web sites) officials of failure in executing the Iraq war and told CBS' "60 Minutes" on Sunday they should resign.

"Somebody has screwed up. And at this level and at this stage, it should be evident to everybody that they've screwed up. And whose heads are rolling on this? That's what bothers me most," Zinni said without naming names.

Zinni, commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command from 1997 to 2000, said planning for the Iraq war and its aftermath had been flawed from the start.

..."I think there was dereliction in insufficient forces being put on the ground and (in not) fully understanding the military dimensions of the plan."

...."If you're the secretary of defense and you're responsible for that. If you're responsible for that planning and that execution on the ground.

...."If you've assumed responsibility for the other elements, non-military, non-security, political, economic, social and everything else, then you bear responsibility,"
.

"If I were the commander of a military organization that delivered this kind of performance to the president, I certainly would tender my resignation. I certainly would expect to be gone,"

The four-star Marine general broke ranks with the Bush administration over the war and has since expressed concern about the security situation in Iraq and about what he said was a lack of planning for the postwar era.

Zinni told "60 Minutes" it was time to change course in Iraq. "The course is headed over Niagara Falls. I think it's time to change course a little bit or at least hold somebody responsible for putting you on this course. Because it's been a failure," he said.

5772. jexster - 5/23/2004 4:43:09 AM

'I will always hate you people'

May 24: Last night the family of a distinguished Iraqi chemistry professor were in little doubt he had murdered in US custody. The reasons for his death were covered up, they believe.

5773. jexster - 5/23/2004 9:24:17 AM

This is the greatest treasure the United States has, our enlisted men and women. And when we put them into harm's way, it had better count for something. It can't be because some policy wonk back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn't thought out. Gen Zinni, Address to the US Naval Institute Forum 9/20/03

5774. jexster - 5/23/2004 9:24:33 AM

May 22, 2004
Gen. Anthony Zinni, USMC (Ret.) Remarks at CDI Board of Directors Dinner, May 12, 2004

"I just came back from giving a lecture at UCLA yesterday, and the lecture was on the Middle East. I tried to ... for the students there, step back and take a more strategic view of the Middle East and the issues out there and maybe give them a perception of the problems and issues from the eyes of those that live with it day-to-day, the Arabs, Israelis, all those that make up the peoples of the Middle East.

On the way back I was thinking about what to talk about here and I know Iraq is a hot topic and I thought I would stay with Iraq.

The third mistake, I think was one we repeated from Vietnam, we had to create a false rationale for going in to get public support. The books were cooked, in my mind. The intelligence was not there.

I testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee one month before the war, and Senator Lugar asked me: "General Zinni, do you feel the threat from Saddam Hussein is imminent?"

I said: "No, not at all. It was not an imminent threat. Not even close.

Not grave, gathering, imminent, serious, severe, mildly upsetting, none of those."

I predicted that the fighting would be over, the organized resistance in three weeks. To Tommy Franks' credit, he did it in 19 days. He beat my prediction. He did a magnificent job, as did our troops. But the rationale that we faced an imminent threat, or a serious threat, was ridiculous. Now, wherever history lays that, whether the intelligence was flawed or it was exaggerated, remains to be seen. I have my own opinions.

5775. Macnas - 5/23/2004 9:46:45 AM

Reading that article on Dr Izmerly's death, posted by Jex above, I have to say I find it stomach turning.

In a way it is just as gruesome as the Berg killing. When a prisoner dies in custody like that, and is dumped at the morgue with no proper explanation for his demise, when his family are treated with such contempt, and there is no accountability, it is the sign of an oppressor.

I think the "alliance" i Iraq has very much lost its way, particularly the US. I feel there will be further restrictions put on fair reporting from Iraq, and as for the banning of cameras and recording devices from military installations, well, I suppose that is one way of ensuring that the likes of what happened in that gaol will not sicken the public again.

5776. alistairConnor - 5/23/2004 1:14:19 PM

I've been thinking about that : is the transparency induced by modern technology (principally internet with its corollary of easily circulated digital photos) going to make it much harder to wage war? (arguably a good thing!)

The answer of course is that it was too good to last -- probably no army can stand that sort of scrutiny.

5777. Macnas - 5/23/2004 1:54:09 PM

Well, you are right, the conduct of most armed forces during operations would not stand close scrutiny, if what is reported is judged against what is normally deemed acceptable behaviour.

However, it is not too much to demand that current conventions are respected and observed.

5778. alistairConnor - 5/23/2004 2:49:23 PM

We have a plan... but it's too early to say what it is
President Bush prepared Sunday for a campaign to rally support at the United Nations about his policies in Iraq
[...]
The overture to the United Nations comes as Mr. Bush is preparing a speech for Monday night at the United States Army War College in Carlisle, Pa., and amid sagging poll results for the president at home.
An administration official said Mr. Bush would outline a plan of action to dispel "this idea that we don't know what we're doing" on Iraq. Mr. Bush will explain to Americans and people around the world that the United States has a plan to overcome the security problems and the political impasse in Iraq, this official said.
[...]
At the same time, many diplomats at the Security Council say they crave more information about the Bush administration's plans. Officials there said that the Security Council had presented the administration with a long list of questions, including some on the powers of the new Iraqi government over security, oil revenues and finances, but that they had failed to get answers.

5779. jayackroyd - 5/23/2004 3:15:53 PM

Zinni before the war.

It's always what comes next that is tough. I went in with the first troops that went into Somalia. We were greeted as heroes on the street. People loved to see us; when the food was handed out, the water was given, the medicines were applied, we were heroes. After we had been there about a month, I had someone come see me who said there was a group of prominent Somalis that wanted to talk to me. I met with them. The first question out of their mouths was that we'd been there a month, hadn't started a jobs program, and when were we going to fix the economy? Well, I didn't know it was my Marine unit's responsibility to do that.

Expectations grow rapidly. The initial euphoria can wear off. People have the idea that Jeffersonian democracy, entrepreneurial economics and all these great things are going to come. If they are not delivered immediately, do not seem to be on the rise, and worse yet, if the situation begins to deteriorate -- if there is tribal revenge, factional splitting, still violent elements in the country making statements that make it more difficult, institutions that are difficult to reestablish, infrastructure damage, I think that initial euphoria could wane away. It's not whether you're greeted in the streets as a hero; it's whether you're still greeted as a hero when you come back a year from now.

5780. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/23/2004 5:24:37 PM

5781. jexster - 5/23/2004 5:54:13 PM

So have I AC..in fact I expect we'll see academic work on the subject and that quite soon..

Not only digital cameras but the INTERNET has undermined Bush's "let them eat in-beds" strategery. It took about 6 years to reach this point in the public debate over Vietnam. It look six months today.

Bush & Co. have done well in fact they have been superb in turning this war into a TV drama series of propaganda and lies...media control that has Goebels smiling up from the Pit.

Thanks to the Wizard of Whimsy, the Imperial Office of Propaganda is a shambles.

5782. jexster - 5/23/2004 5:58:44 PM

Zinni, Hoar, Clark, Frank each say the same thing...over and over and over..

BRAIN FARTS 'r US has place us all in a world of shit....

And it is not as if those who have a bit of experience with war didn't know what they were talking about...

no surprise that the ChickenHawks, Corrupt Crony Capitalists, Cornpone Patriots and Enraptured Religious lunatics didn't have a fucking clue

5783. robertjayb - 5/23/2004 7:42:54 PM

BBC outlines proposed UN resolution on Iraq...

5784. robertjayb - 5/23/2004 8:02:59 PM

Juan Cole summarize's General Zinni's position...(with links)

5785. jayackroyd - 5/23/2004 8:50:59 PM

5783

So they're sidestepping the key issue--control of US Security forces.

Still, this is consistent with the current administration line--well, I should say last week's, because maybe it's already different. That is, all future bad things that happen are the fault of the Iraqi people. Interesting how this too looks like an agreement primarily driven by politics. Bush (or Cheney or Rove or whoever is in charge) must have demanded an agreement, of some type, before his speech tonight.

This could break down again.

The British official said the arrangements would be covered in an exchange of letters between the MNF and the interim Iraqi government, once it was appointed.

Those letters will resolve the real sticking points--as I mentioned about 2 months ago--of who controls the military decision-making. As one of the TNR blogs points out, the US military folks have a reasonable position in wanting the chain of command and line of authority absolutely clear and unified. Letters containing language acceptable to the French, the Germans and the three branches of Iraqis may not be acceptable to the generals on the ground.

If this does break down over these issues, it won't be the first time that a done deal was announced, only to unravel.

5786. jexster - 5/23/2004 8:52:33 PM

DOA...

Do you seriously think that ANYONE is going to help Bush or put their nation's treasure in the hands of that idiot?

5787. jexster - 5/23/2004 9:03:26 PM

Announcing the Mote Chapter of the Cult of Z

Zinni links:

Before the war: 'What Planet are They Living On? - Salon.com".

September 2003 - Lehrer News Hour

May 15, 2004 - Abu Ghraib and other issues

And of course, the Address, "On Brain Farts"

Naval Insitute Forum 2003

5788. jayackroyd - 5/23/2004 9:13:16 PM

5786

Zinni points out that nobody--not the Germans, not the French, not the US, not even the Iranians--want to see a failed state in Iraq. The question is rather how much crow will the president have to eat. Firing Wolfie and Rumsfeld might do it, which would also help address another problem he has.

However, that is politically inexpedient.

5789. alistairConnor - 5/24/2004 11:06:44 AM

I think the best thing that they could do to make the "MNF" viable, and get SC agreement for the whole thing, would be to put it under British command.

5790. Macnas - 5/24/2004 11:12:54 AM

Here is a good article.

5791. wonkers2 - 5/24/2004 11:46:26 AM

Bush's latest version of "cut and walk fast."

5792. jexster - 5/24/2004 11:50:10 AM

WAY TO GO MORON!

Bush might as well have gone to the Vatican and pee'ed on the Pieta, and taken a dump on St. Peter's tomb

NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - The Imam Ali shrine in Najaf, the holiest Shi'ite site in Iraq (news - web sites), was damaged on Tuesday by rockets or mortars, witnesses said -- a development likely to spark outrage among Iraq's Shi'ite majority.

Reuters Photo

One of the entrances to the shrine was damaged in the attack. It was not clear who fired the missiles. U.S. forces have been fighting Shi'ite militiamen loyal to rebel cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in Najaf and other Shi'ite areas.

5793. jexster - 5/24/2004 11:53:53 AM

the Z man had a FEW other suggestions, none of which even were even hinted of in that latest bomb of a speech

Didn't watch...couldn't avoid seeing most on news hour

Man with plan
Fights for liberty
Persevere
stay course
evil
PLEASE save my sorry ass

God bless america, land of moron, home of the armadillo, never heard discouraging word, from sea to purple mountains majesty..Amen

5794. jexster - 5/24/2004 11:55:56 AM

5795. jexster - 5/24/2004 11:58:04 AM

mongoloid he was a mongoloid
happier than you and me
mongoloid he was a mongoloid
and it determined what he could see
mongoloid he was a mongoloid
one chromosome too many
mongoloid he was a mongoloid
and it determined what he could see
and he wore a hat
and he had a job
and he brought home the bacon
so that no one knew
mongoloid he was a mongoloid
his friends were unaware
mongoloid he was a mongoloid
nobody even cared

5796. Magoseph - 5/24/2004 12:04:06 PM

Iraq Car Bomb, Clashes as Bush Vows to Stay Course

5797. jexster - 5/24/2004 12:17:54 PM

Obe Juan Guest Editorial
by Keith Watenpaugh

Assistant Professor
Eastern Mediterranean and Islamic History
Department of History
Le Moyne College
Syracuse NY

America’s Incompetent Colonialism: The Failures of the US Administration of Iraq

The F word and the I word..together at last

5798. jexster - 5/24/2004 12:23:02 PM

Sitting across the table from CPA administrators I listened to the same language of democratization and development being employed as part of a broader, concerted plan to turn Iraq into a dependent and docile American client; and key features of Iraqi society, including higher education, media, culture, and the arts would be subordinated to that program.

What also struck me about those conversations - and the events of the intervening year have confirmed my suspicions - is that the CPA, and here I mean not just the American diplomats and bureaucrats seconded to the DOD and the token representatives of “Coalition Partners,” but also the vast array of civilian contractors and subcontractors, have been infected by the pathologies of colonialism. As I have discussed in an earlier essay for Middle East Report, (http://www.merip.org/mer/mer228/228_watenpaugh.html)
the civilian and military administrators of Iraq have grown contemptuous of Iraq and Iraqis and have convinced themselves of their hosts’ essential incompetence. Blaming the victim has always proved an effective strategy in justifying colonialism.

"Oh no we aren't colonialist. How UNAmuruhkun!" the war peddlers croaked

5799. jexster - 5/24/2004 12:27:02 PM

"I was convinced that the US would not leave Iraq like the British left Palestine in 1948: merely abandoning it to the UN and laying the groundwork for a half century of ongoing and unremitting war and suffering. I think I was wrong."

Regis Debray for King!

Vive La France!

5800. jexster - 5/24/2004 1:03:35 PM

IISS: Bush Losing GWOT

LONDON (Reuters) - Al Qaeda has more than 18,000 militants ready to strike and the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq (news - web sites) has accelerated recruitment to the ranks of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s network, a leading London think-tank said on Tuesday.

Al Qaeda's finances were in good order, its "middle managers" provided expertise to Islamic militants around the globe and bin Laden's drawing power was as strong as ever, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) said.

It warned in its annual Strategic Survey that al Qaeda would keep trying to develop plans for attacks in North America and Europe and that the network ideally wanted to use weapons of mass destruction.

"Meanwhile, soft targets encompassing Americans, Europeans and Israelis, and aiding the insurgency in Iraq, will do," the institute said.

5801. alistairConnor - 5/24/2004 2:40:21 PM

I posted this a year ago. Didn't please everyone.

I think it's time to re-read it, in light of the GW Bush Doctrine. I find a lot of poignant topical references in it :

5802. alistairConnor - 5/24/2004 2:40:36 PM

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke (1) your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel, (2)
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

5803. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/24/2004 3:21:23 PM

I’m a sucker for Kipling!

5804. alistairConnor - 5/24/2004 3:24:26 PM

I've never been much of a kipler myself. Except as a children's writer, there he is in a class of his own.

5805. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/24/2004 3:28:19 PM

You don’t care for “IF?”. . . “The Fairies’ Siege?”

5806. alistairConnor - 5/24/2004 3:38:21 PM

Complete this famous Kipling quote, while trying not to think of Clinton :

A woman is only a woman,
But a good cigar is a

a) joke
b) smoke
c) bloke
d) poke

5807. Macnas - 5/24/2004 4:34:34 PM

smoke of course.

I'll stand Kipling as does alistair, but the essay "Ulster" never sat well with me.

5808. robertjayb - 5/24/2004 6:03:01 PM

al Qaeda thrives...(CBS/AP)

CBS/AP) Despite losses around the world, al Qaeda has more than 18,000 potential terrorists, and its ranks are growing because of the conflict in Iraq, a leading think tank warned Tuesday.

Al Qaeda still has a functioning leadership despite the death or capture of key figures, and estimates suggest al Qaeda operates in more than 60 nations around the world, the International Institute of Strategic Studies said in its Strategic Survey 2003-4.

The terrorist group poses a growing threat to Western interests and attacks are likely to increase, the institute said.

"Overall, risks of terrorism to Westerners and Western assets in Arab countries appeared to increase after the Iraq war began in March 2003," institute director John Chipman told a news conference to launch the annual survey.

5809. jexster - 5/24/2004 6:18:33 PM

Turns out dem EYE rakis don't cotten to Bush's "Plan" to tear down the Gulag

They want Abu Ghraib to stand as a memorial to those who suffered at the hands of Saddam and Tyrant II - the Bungling Butcher of Baghdad

This guy is pathetic

Another example of the US leadership has no plan for Iraq, no clue about what Iraq is about, and aren't even interested

Their "plans" for Iraq have had nothing to do with Iraqis...

Its all about votes for that bloody war criminal

But this shit ain't flushing no mo...

Carlos Watson, the new CNN Bill Schnieder, very bright unconventional thinker who said this morning that Bush's REAL problem isn't with his critics or with Democrats

Its with conservative mainstream republicans like Bob Novak, George Will, Tucker Carlson McCain, Lugar, LindsayG

And according to Watson, he is just pissing these guys off big time

Nice he's got problems with REPUBLICANS isn't it?

5810. jayackroyd - 5/24/2004 6:27:39 PM

They've relieved Sanchez.

5811. wonkers2 - 5/24/2004 6:32:25 PM

Now they should dump Tenet.

5812. vonKreedon - 5/24/2004 6:57:54 PM

Iraqis Demand More Freedom!

5813. jexster - 5/24/2004 7:53:27 PM

If only some Americans were as smart....

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites)'s speech outlining his plan to hand over power to Iraqis and ease their troubles won few people over in Baghdad, where weary residents are bitter after more than a year of chaos.

Iraqis expressed little faith in American promises after months of occupation which many said had delivered only violence, a lack of basic services and a scandal over the inhumane treatment of prisoners by the U.S. military.

"He lies. We don't believe anything Bush says. The Americans have not done a thing for Iraqis. And now he promises to hand over power to Iraqis in a democracy after handpicking the people in the Governing Council," Haidar Majeed, a trader, said on Tuesday.

Takes a con man rug merchant to know one

5814. jexster - 5/24/2004 7:57:54 PM

See!

Ultimate military authority in post-transition Iraq will rest with US: Powell

He lied again...cheap ass little con artist has fucked American royally

5815. jexster - 5/24/2004 7:59:44 PM

5816. jexster - 5/24/2004 8:02:47 PM

June 5th - the latest in a two year series of demonstrations against the War Criminal of Crawford...SF Civic Center NOON

5817. jexster - 5/24/2004 8:06:07 PM

They fired Sanchez and replaced him with the second highest ranking officer in the Army.

This means that they have effectively demoted Abizaid.

Damn the Army brass must be hella pissed off at these Machiavellis from Mayberry.

They think exactly like Zinni and are asking themselves - Why the fuck are we scapegoats for these lunatics in the Administration?

We will SOON find out...Bush is dead meat walking

5818. jexster - 5/24/2004 11:09:26 PM

Ruy Teixeira's take:

President Bush's speech, whose purpose was to rally public opinion in favor of his Iraq policy, proposed no change of course and no timeline for concluding U.S. involvement. Indeed, with the exception of bulldozing the Abu Ghraib prison, Bush offered absolutely no new ideas on how to deal with the huge difficulties the U.S. currently confronts in Iraq. Instead, he appeared to be relying on a strategy of looking stern and determined, saying that "the terrorists cannot be allowed to win" and comparing the American vision of "liberty and life" with the terrorists' vision of "tyranny and murder." If that all sounds familiar, it's because Bush has been striking the same poses and saying the same things -- to decreasing effect -- ever since the U.S. invaded Iraq, and, in fact, considerably before it.

This is not likely to be an effective strategy. The public has turned increasingly negative on the war in Iraq and, more broadly, on Bush's conduct of the war on terrorism. Simply asserting that we're doing the right thing and we must continue to do it is not going to turn those negative views around. Instead, since the public believes that the current course in Iraq is not containing, much less resolving, the very serious problems, proposing a change from that course was the only plausible way to turn public opinion in his direction.

That is exactly what Bush failed to do and why we may reasonably expect that public opinion will not turn in his favor. And public opinion now is remarkably negative

5819. robertjayb - 5/25/2004 12:50:56 AM

At long last the NYTimes may reveal the shameful role its correspondent Judith Miller played as Chalabi's stenographer on WMD and other dubious propaganda (via Slate).

Sources inside and close to the New York Times say that the newspaper is preparing an "Editors' Note" that will reassess its pre-Iraq War coverage, particularly its coverage of weapons of mass destruction. The note is said to address the reporting failures of Times staffers, including Judith Miller, and could be published as early as tomorrow (Wednesday, May 26).

On a separate track, Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent has been calling Times staffers to discuss the WMD issue, fueling speculations that he, too, will write about the subject in his Sunday column. Okrent and Times Executive Editor Bill Keller had previously declined to audit Miller's WMD coverage. Okrent said he didn't wanted to get bogged down in evaluating the paper's past deeds as he began his public editorship; Keller cited both cost-benefit analysis and his faith in Miller's reportorial abilities in demurring.

5820. jexster - 5/25/2004 1:42:35 AM

cnn;

1. OBL bois in the US and ready to rumble this summer

2. Iran in one of the biggest intelligence coups of all times fed Bush and Blair bogus intel in order to get them to eliminate arch enemy adn former Rummy/Raygun blow buddy...SADDAM THE MAGNIFICENT!

The Bush regime is on the verge of collapse

5821. wonkers2 - 5/25/2004 1:44:24 AM

I wonder who in Cheney's office or CIA turned Judith Miller on to Chalabi. But it's now clear that she left her critical faculties at home when she swallowed his line hook line and sinker.

5822. jexster - 5/25/2004 1:49:01 AM

As of today nearly 800 americans will have died in vain if their blood is not avenged by the voters in November - we're talking Congress too so that we can investigate the crimes of GWB

As for the hundreds of billions this is costing your grandkids...in long run you'll be dead

5823. jexster - 5/25/2004 2:01:29 AM

Top Stories - AP

U.S., Britain Differ on Iraq Operations

20 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!

By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The United States and Britain appeared at odds Tuesday over how much control Iraq (news - web sites)'s caretaker government will have over American-led military operations after the handover of political authority on June 30.

Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said U.S.-led troops will do "what is necessary to protect themselves." In London, British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) said Iraqis should have the final say over any major military operations.

The apparent difference underscored one of the many pieces of unfinished business as Iraq begins a new era with the selection of interim political leaders who will run the government until elections are held by early next year. The White House says the new leaders will be named by early next week and perhaps sooner.

Report: al-Qaida Ranks Swelling Worldwide

Iraq clashes kill 12, Governing Council wants Iraqi say over troops

Army May Tap Training Units for Iraq Duty

White House Ignores Critics, Voices Iraq Optimism

5824. jexster - 5/25/2004 2:03:31 AM

Hornswoggled by a bunch of towel heads from th AXIS of EVIL

What disaster

So what does he do?

Callin MARVIN ZINDLER EYEWITNESS NEWS

(that how it goes Robert)

And shakes the protheses of these poor bastards..

Props for a con artist

5825. jexster - 5/25/2004 4:56:10 AM

Fallujah Emerging As Islamic Mini-State

Why I REMEMBER why Rummy licked Saddam's boots!

I had forgotten.

What planet are they from anyway...

B-52s
Planet Claire lyrics:
Ahhhahhhahhahh

She came from Planet Claire
I knew she came from there
She drove a Plymouth Satellite
Faster than the speed of light

Planet Claire has pink air
All the trees are red
No one ever dies there
No one has a head

Ahhhahhhahhahh

Some say she's from Mars
Or one of the seven stars
That shine after 3:30 in the morning
WELL SHE ISN'T

She came from Planet Claire
She came from Planet Claire
She came from Planet Claire

5826. jexster - 5/25/2004 5:46:04 AM

Zbig on NewsHour: To start Bush has got to stop the loose and vague language...lies like "FULL SOVEREIGNTY"

Then he's got to figure out how to get OUT of Iraq as soon as possible...the sooner the better because the longer we stay the more likely it will be that a major War of National Liberation will erupt....

5827. jexster - 5/25/2004 6:09:54 AM

Magical History Tour
.

Bush can't learn from the past if he can't see it

In press conferences, TV ads, and interviews this year, President Bush has manifested a series of psychopathologies: an abstract notion of reality, confidence unhinged from facts and circumstances, and a conception of credibility that requires no correspondence to the external world. Tonight, as he vowed to stay the course in Iraq, Bush demonstrated another mental defect: incomprehension of his role in history as a fallible human agent. Absent such comprehension, Bush can't fix his mistakes in Iraq because he can't see how—or even that—he screwed up.

William Saletan

5828. jexster - 5/25/2004 6:16:12 AM

The National leadership of the United States is mentally unbalanced and NO crediblity....

The French and the Germans know a fat hog when they see one..

Sooey pig

5829. robertjayb - 5/25/2004 8:11:26 AM

The Times and Iraq: a wishy-washy not-quite apology...Mistakes were made...Maybe...

...we have found a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been. In some cases, information that was controversial then, and seems questionable now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged — or failed to emerge.

5830. Ulgine Barrows - 5/25/2004 9:18:39 AM

I make mistakes every day.

Yes, mistakes are made.

Rigorous, controversial, questionable, insufficiently qualified, unchallenged mistakes.

5831. Ulgine Barrows - 5/25/2004 9:19:47 AM

5832. Magoseph - 5/25/2004 9:46:25 AM

Report: Al-Qaeda has more than 18,000 potential fighters at large

Excerpt: LONDON (AP) — Far from being crippled by the U.S.-led war on terror, al-Qaeda has more than 18,000 potential terrorists scattered around the world and the war in Iraq is swelling its ranks, a report said Tuesday.
Al-Qaeda is probably working on plans for major attacks on the United States and Europe, and it may be seeking weapons of mass destruction in its desire to inflict as many casualties as possible, the International Institute of Strategic Studies said in its annual survey of world affairs.

Osama bin Laden's network appears to be operating in more than 60 nations, often in concert with local allies, the study by the independent think tank said.

Although about half of al-Qaeda's top 30 leaders have been killed or captured, it has an effective leadership, with bin Laden apparently still playing a key role, it said.

"Al-Qaeda must be expected to keep trying to develop more promising plans for terrorist operations in North America and Europe, potentially involving weapons of mass destruction," IISS director Dr. John Chipman told a press conference releasing "Strategic Survey 2003/4."

5833. Magoseph - 5/25/2004 10:01:32 AM

I think that the think tank could be wrong about the present primary target of al-Qaeda. I tend to believe that although the US is the ultimate target, the primary target of an extensive dirty bomb attack is Israel. First of all, such an attack could very well be decisive because of the size of the country and the population. Secondly, the standing of al-Qaeda in the terrorist world would skyrocket and prepare them for the ultimate struggle with the US and Europe.

5834. jexster - 5/25/2004 3:28:58 PM

God I dunno what their target is but I am confident of one thing..they are more numerous, more motivated,and I fear better armed than they were in 2001.

And our Glorious Leader is nattering on about Iraq - Central Front of Terror.

Tall tales of the Tryant

5835. jexster - 5/25/2004 3:30:34 PM

5836. jexster - 5/25/2004 4:00:28 PM

The body of Spc. Isela Rubalcava, who was killed in Mosul, Iraq, arrives at the El Paso International Airport in Texas, May 12, 2004, as her family members weep over the flag-draped casket.

5837. jexster - 5/25/2004 4:07:23 PM

Mago do you recall what Rummy said about being clueless as to how to measure success in the GWOT?

Someone should send him the IISS report.

Soprano Elender Wall sings the songs of Bryant Kong, who accompanies her on piano. Kong's composition, The Poetry of Donald Rumsfeld," based on remarks by the secretary of defense, is on a self-produced CD.

There will be some things that people will see.

There will be some things that people won't see.

And life goes on.

5838. Roy Bean - 5/25/2004 5:25:34 PM

An Army summary of mistreatment and death of prisoners in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a widespread pattern of abuse.

Think that might have something to do with Sanchez being fired, and Abizaid demoted?

Fish rots from the head

Knowing this administration's pattern, if Sanchez got fired it is probably because he's doing too honest a job of allowing investigations of abuse. They must want someone in there who will pull down the cone of silence.

5839. jayackroyd - 5/25/2004 6:17:26 PM

One can imagine the conversation, all oblique and sideways, about the need to manage expectations and so forth, and Sanchez saying that he thinks he's doing just fine, but if the president is unhappy, he'll move on. And then Cheney calling him in the next day, as with O'Neill, and telling him to move on.

The first stories I saw said that he would be promoted, actually, to SouthCom, obtaining a fourth star thereby. But I was told last night by a retired general friend of mine that that wouldn't happen, because there is congressional oversight on those promotions, entailing hearings.

They will not, for obvious reasons, want Sanchez at a hearing.

You know, as I typed that, I just had a wave of anger and disgust that such a statement came so quickly and easily to me. Of course the administration would not want its actions reviewed. Of course the administration would not want any new information out about its actitivities. Of course they'll be as secretive as possible.

Freedom and democracy in Iraq, hell. It's time for some here.

5840. wonkers2 - 5/25/2004 6:27:17 PM

NYT big headline today--G.I.'s PRISON ABUSE MORE WIDESPREAD, SAYS ARMY SURVEY---Deaths and Mistreatment in Iraq and Afghanistan Are Focus

An Army summary of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a widespresd pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known....The details spelled out paint a broad picture of misconduct, and show that in many cases among the 37 prisoners who have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army did not conduct autopsies and says it cannot determine the causes of the deaths.

5841. jexster - 5/25/2004 8:57:02 PM

Displays of naked Iraqi prisoners being humiliated in American military prisons have shocked not only Arabs and Europeans but also most Americans. They need not have been surprised – torture is not new.

Widely practiced by the Germans during World War II, it was standard French procedure during the Algerian war.

William Polk on The Western Colonialist Tradition of Torture

5842. jexster - 5/25/2004 11:34:07 PM

Bush may want troops but he won't get so much as a private.

The German ambassador to the US made it clear that this was not the agenda of the Iraqi people...they want foreign troops out ASAP as does the German govt.

So they support the get out "sentiments" of the resolution.

"I have heard no call from Iraq for Germans, French Pakistanis, Indians (sorry Marj)...

And the new PM ...

"Thanks but no thanks"

Maybe I throw my name in the hat!

5843. jexster - 5/25/2004 11:48:42 PM

He's no leader..he's an incompetent

BITE ME Chairman Mike

Italy, Saudi Arabia Want Full UN Control in Iraq

5844. jexster - 5/26/2004 3:16:49 AM

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Three U.S. Marines were killed in action Wednesday west of the Iraqi capital, the U.S. military said.

A statement from the command said the deaths occurred in Anbar province "while conducting security and stability operations." No further details were released due to security, the statement added.

Anbar province extends from the western suburbs of Baghdad and extends to the borders with Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. It includes such restive insurgency centers as Fallujah, Ramadi and Qaim.

As of Wednesday, 796 U.S. service members had died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq

5845. jexster - 5/26/2004 3:17:29 AM

Name: David J. Moreno
Rank: Petty Officer 3rd Class
Branch of Service: Navy
Age: 26
Hometown: Gering
State: NV
Date of Death: 07/17/03

5846. Roy Bean - 5/26/2004 5:43:31 AM

I bet the number of deaths hits 1000 before the election. That will be a psychologically significant threshold to cross.

5847. iiibbb - 5/26/2004 5:54:15 AM

Al Queda training manual

5848. jexster - 5/26/2004 7:30:04 AM

UNITED NATIONS - Four key nations proposed major changes Wednesday to the U.S.-British draft resolution on Iraq (news - web sites), moves that would give the new government control over the Iraqi army and police and require the multinational force to consult on military actions except for self-defense.

A three-page proposal by China — which diplomats said was supported in large part by Russia, France and Germany — would give the interim government that takes over on June 30 the right to decide whether foreign forces remain in the country and limit the multinational mandate to January 2005.

Both changes would bolster the sovereign powers of the Iraqi interim government and extend far greater authority than the resolution introduced to the U.N. Security Council on Monday by Britain and the United States

5849. thoughtful - 5/26/2004 7:25:47 PM

How's this for conspiracy theory...from the political wire:
"When the story ultimately comes out we'll see that Iran has run one of the most masterful intelligence operations in history. They persuaded the US and Britain to dispose of its greatest enemy." -- Former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, quoted in The Guardian. According to the article: "Some intelligence officials now believe that Iran used the hawks in the Pentagon and the White House to get rid of a hostile neighbour, and pave the way for a Shia-ruled Iraq."

5850. jexster - 5/26/2004 7:59:07 PM

Bush Iraq Policy to Come Under Fire at Summit of European and Latin American leaders

5851. jexster - 5/26/2004 8:00:25 PM

I heard that guy on CNN..he makes a good case...hope the media follows through

Bush hornswoggled by towel heads

That oughta play well in Mayberry

5852. jexster - 5/26/2004 8:31:25 PM

Exactly as you predicted Thoughful

CIA Operation Weed the Garden is now moving into high gear.

Here is your article!

US intelligence fears Iran duped hawks into Iraq war

Julian Borger in Washington
Guardian Weekly

An urgent investigation has been launched in Washington into whether Iran played a role in manipulating the US into the Iraq war by pas sing on bogus intelligence through Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi Nation al Congress, it emerged this week.
Some intelligence officials now believe that Iran used the hawks in the Pentagon and the White House to get rid of a hostile neighbour, and pave the way for a Shia-ruled Iraq.

According to a US intelligence official, the CIA has hard evidence that Mr Chalabi and his intelligence chief, Aras Karim Habib, passed US secrets to Tehran, and that Mr Habib has been a paid Iranian agent for several years, involved in passing intelligence in both directions.

The CIA has asked the FBI to investigate Mr Chalabi's contacts in the Pentagon to discover how the INC acquired sensitive information that ended up in Iranian hands.

"This is people who opposed the war with long knives drawn for people who supported the war," Ms Mylroie said.

5853. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 5/26/2004 8:31:57 PM