What do you think?
1505. joezan - 1/22/2000 6:08:09 PM
Went to see the band Burlap to Cashmere last night, at the Calvin College Fine Arts Center. This has been my (and my daughter's) most eagerly-awaited concert in many moons. They are in many ways a different kind of Christian rock band - some of these differences no doubt initially off-putting to some of the people who went to see them. First off, they eschew the spoken ministry aspect of the typical Christian rock show. [For the uninitiated; At every Christian rock show I've ever seen or heard of, the (usually crude) between-song banter of your typical rock show is replaced by testimonies from band members, and prayer. Being a Christian, I don't mind this at all - some bands have even developed it into an art, and it becomes a high-point of their show].
But none of that from B to C, a six-man band from Brooklyn, NY, who have been playing together for 5 years. There was a lot of between-song banter though, and some of it extremely funny. But being Christians, they kept it all very appropriate. This is definitely a bonus when you have your 8 y.o. daughter with you. But obviously disconcerting to much of the audience assembled at a Christian College, in the heart of the Protestant Vatican City that is Grand Rapids, who expected at least an opening prayer. But within minutes of the start of their set, I guarantee you, no one there missed the spoken ministry, because they were all on their feet dancing, clapping and stomping their feet through the entire show.
The other most obvious distinctions between this and other Christian bands are the denominations and ethnic backgrounds of the band members - all are either Greek Orthodox or Catholic. The vast majority of Christian bands have a predominantly Protestant make up - you just don't see names like Philippidis, Delopoulos, Pagano, and Guarnera every day in Christian rock.
1506. joezan - 1/22/2000 6:09:00 PM
Another difference - probably the most important one, is this: The band is not real particular about where they play. They came up playing the NYC bars and rock clubs. Probably the greatest testament to the virtuosity of this band is the fact that they are invited to play regularly at clubs such as The Bottom Line and The Bitter End, those most legendary of all NYC rock venues. In fact, when their live EP, recorded at The Bitter End, was released a few months ago, there were rumblings in the Christian community that they were poseurs. Now, I complain a lot that Christian rock is rejected by the secular rock establishment. But I believe that the best thing that could happen would be for Christian bands - and there are many truly great ones out there - to get out there amongst the "sinners" and spread the Gospel. If they insist on playing only to the Church crowd, they may sell enough albums to keep them comfy, but they'll be preaching to the choir for a long, long time.
Anyway, on to the show...
They opened with the title cut from their current (debut) CD, Anybody Out There?, in which the first verse is sung and repeated once as a slow ballad, with high harmonies, and slow strumming on the 3 guitars. This abruptly changes to probably the best example of their unique style - traditional Greek rhythms, with a rock beat. (Throughout the show, in fact, people could be seen hopping out into the aisles to perform their versions of Greek dancing). The lead singer, Steve Delopoulos, trades and shares both spotlight and lightning-quick strumming with lead guitarist/back-up singer John Pilippidis, the stand-out talent in this most-talented band. Listening to their CD, I was convinced that they use mandolins and violins. Wrong. These instruments are faked beautifully by Philippidis, the best, quickest guitarist I've seen in decades.
(more later)...
1507. joezan - 1/22/2000 6:41:28 PM
(...continued):
Many refreshing differences between this and most rock bands: Where the typical rock song is punctuated by the ubiquitous "Power Chord", this band punctuates with staccato strumming, shouts of HEY, HEY, HEY!, tongue-clicks and rolls, etc. And the typical background droning of guitars is happily replaced with virtuoso strumming and plinking. And perhaps most refreshing of all...
No EGO's!
Go see this band, Buy their CD immediately.
(Funny Story):
Following the show, my daughter and I headed over to their autograph signing at a local Christian book store. As we waited in the line which wended its way through the large store and out into the parking lot, I picked up a stuffed Larry The Cucumber (from the animated video series VeggieTales, to have signed for my other daughter.
When we got to the signing table, upon which were a couple of large trays of fruit for the band members to snack on, the two teenaged girls in front of us realized they had nothing in their possessions to have signed. Thinking quickly, the lead guitarist picked up a banana and signed it, then passed it down for the other members to sign. Everyone got a big kick out of that, and I said to the lead singer You think THAT'S funny? - I have a cucumber for you to sign! At this, the drummer and guitarist turned quickly away and about rolled off their chairs laughing.
"It wasn't that funny", I thought. But after we got out to the car with our signed CD and cucumber, and I got in my seat, I looked down and saw what was so funny:
My fly was wide open.
1508. Uzmakk - 1/22/2000 6:52:14 PM
Very interesting, joezan. I definitely notice some Christian themes in the music of Ron Sexsmith. I recommend him highly if you are not familiar with him. So, as promised--
The Idiot Boy
God so loved the idiot boy
Gave him a pair of eyes to explore
Gave him a pair of hands to destroy
any good thing that he found.
To put this kid in a candy store
Let him run around until he drops
Just like a bull in a china shop
Everything come crashing down
God so loved the idiot boy
...gave him a solo in the choir
where songs of wild desire
were all his voice was for...
God so loved the idiot world
Gave his only son to kick around
That was long ago in another town
We could use a good laugh now.
Give him coffee grounds in a paper cup
and a reason every day to keep getting up
in a world that drags you down
God so loved the idiot boy.
1509. joezan - 1/22/2000 8:14:12 PM
Uzi:
Hey - I didn't realize you were a brother in Christ. Welcome to the fold, dude!
BTW, I see some definite crossover potential in Mr. Sexsmith's work. I wonder whether he'd consider a name change?
1510. Uzmakk - 1/22/2000 8:40:51 PM
joezan:
I am not yet a brother in Christ.
1511. arkymalarky - 1/23/2000 12:58:48 AM
Joe,
How familiar are you with Point of Grace? I'm not much up on Christian music (or much other current music, for that matter), but they're from AR.
1512. joezan - 1/23/2000 4:17:22 AM
arky:
POG is the premier Christian "girl group", and they sell more records than anyone except DC Talk (and they may have overtaken them by now). Although, after 3 years during which every single they've released (about 15 or 20, I think) has reached #1 on the Contemporary Christian charts, they have attained a sort of multiple-diva status, and nobody calls them a girl group.
They have some of the best writers in Nashville in their stable, writing exclusively for them, so their stock can only rise for the forseeable future. They are the queens of the lush ballad, and some are truly beautiful, but I like their pop-country stuff much more - such as their most recent hit, Saving Grace.
1513. joezan - 1/23/2000 4:19:05 AM
Uzi:
I realize that - I was making, as we say in 'Murica, a funny.
1514. Jenerator - 1/24/2000 9:53:03 PM
Hi JoeZan!!
1515. Uzmakk - 1/24/2000 10:23:52 PM
Hello, Jenerator, nice to see you again.
1516. EricCartman - 1/24/2000 10:55:42 PM
Joezan:
Have you ever heard the Houston group King's X? I'm not sure if they're still together these days, but in the late '80s and early '90s, they put out some cool stuff, spiritually-influenced rock. Hard to describe their sound; sort of Hendrix singing, Beatles harmonizing, Black Sabbath riffing (not as incongruous as it sounds). Critic Dave DiMartino once described them as "a good Rush".
1517. paragate - 1/25/2000 1:39:47 AM
Does anyone else find it amusing how Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" seems to finally getting its 15 minutes of fame in the popular press? Just heard a long piece on NPR which made it sound like news.
1518. joezan - 1/25/2000 4:55:14 AM
Cartman:
Yea - in fact, before I ever became a Christian, I was aware that many of the metalhead kids liked King's X. What's weirder, though, is that I don't know any Christians who listen to them. The station I listen to has a "Closet Classics" show every a.m., and they play all the old Christian hair bands - Stryper, etc., but never King's X.
One thing you can say for metalheads - they don't care much what the songs say - they're in it purely for the music.
1519. joezan - 1/25/2000 4:56:47 AM
Hey, Jen!
How're things in Blighty?
1520. EricCartman - 1/25/2000 9:39:17 AM
Joezan Message # 1518:
Well, King's X were never quite as overt with their message as Stryper. Their philosophy was, instead of sermonizing, and tossing Bibles out to the audience at concerts, to just play good music, and let the audience sort out the message for themselves. I think they were about 5 years ahead of their time; they'd get days of airplay nowadays, given the popularity of Creed (who, imho, sound a great deal like King's X).
One thing you can say for metalheads - they don't care much what the songs say - they're in it purely for the music.
Yeah, lyrically, I think it's just a matter of not being preachy. Aside from that, you can get away with pretty much anything. They're mostly more interested in the guitar solo anyway. A punchy riff and a memorable slogan that you can tap a keg to. That's all they're after.
1521. Jenerator - 1/25/2000 1:52:54 PM
Oy! Joe! Things are well here. Who are the latest Christian groups you recommend these days? They have some Christian bookstores here, but I haven't seen any Christian music at any of them or any of the music shops, can you believe it? I brought Crystal Lewis and DC Talk with me on CD and have made my roommates listen to them. One of them thought I was trying to "poison her with Christian music." After about 10 minutes, she asked, "I really like this CD, but when are you going to play your holy-roller music?"
Uzzmeister,
Good to see you! A friendly face is always nice.;-)
Cartman,
I have a bootleg tape of King's X jamming with Andy Timmons (solo artist/Danger Danger) and DimeBag Darrell (Pantera) from 1989. I didn't know that they were considered a Christian group? Or did they change their style the way Ministry did? Ie dance to hard core rock.
1522. RosettaStone - 1/25/2000 5:38:04 PM
Just purchased the Ry Cooder's produced album--"Buena Vista Social Club."
Authentic Cuban music.
1523. theDiva - 1/25/2000 5:39:14 PM
Oooh....I hear that's a good'un. GlendaJean recommended it highly.
1524. Cellar Door - 1/25/2000 5:40:30 PM
The film Wim Wenders made about it is available on home video. Get it. It's quite lovely.
1525. theDiva - 1/25/2000 5:41:15 PM
It's out on video, too! Cool, I have a stop to make on the way home.
1526. JJBiener - 1/25/2000 6:26:34 PM
paragate - Miles' Kind of Blue is now and has always been a classic. It has received recognition in the popular press several times in the past. As each new generation of listeners rediscovers it, they think they found something new and bring it out again for everyone to see. This happens with a lot of great music.
1527. theDiva - 1/25/2000 6:29:30 PM
They issued a 40th anniversary remastered Kind of Blue last year. I think it's great when jazz gets any kind of positive recognition. It's invariably too short, and piteously overdue, but there you are.
1528. joezan - 1/26/2000 5:25:37 AM
Jenerator:
The only new band I'm excited about lately is Burlap to Cashmere - scroll back a couple of days for my clunky review of their awesome concert.
Totally different from anything in Christian rock, although my brother the musician says they sound a lot like some secular band I can't remember the name of right now.
BTW, tickets are going on sale in a few days for Sixpence None the Richer and Caedmon's Call, at the same small auditorium, for sometime in April. I'm all over that like ugly on a gorilla...
1529. EricCartman - 1/26/2000 8:44:17 AM
Jen Message # 1521:
I have a bootleg tape of King's X jamming with Andy Timmons (solo artist/Danger Danger) and DimeBag Darrell (Pantera) from 1989.
Both those guys are excellent guitarists. Are they doing King's X songs, or jamming on classic rock tunes, or what?
I didn't know that they were considered a Christian group? Or did they change their style the way Ministry did? Ie dance to hard core rock.
No, they were up front about their Christianity from the get-go. Like I say, though, they weren't really preachy about it, and downplayed any specific beliefs in interviews, preferring to stick with "spiritual". But the song Visions, off their first album, Out of the Silent Planet, is clearly about Jesus specifically, though they don't mention him by name. Up through the third album, Faith Hope Love, they were fairly straightforward, but after that, became a little more lyrically oblique.
Musically, their style remained pretty consistent -- sort of Rush meets Black Sabbath, and they managed to get rid of most of the irritating qualities of both those bands. Extremely tasteful guitar playing, and great vocals. I'd recommend their best of album, or Dogman, or Gretchen Goes to Nebraska. Way better than Creed, who seem to be the hot Christian band of the moment.
1530. Jenerator - 1/26/2000 6:16:06 PM
JoeZan,
I'll have to check out your review! I've always trusted your musical tastes, but I am surprised that you like Sixpence None The Richer. Caedmon's Call is awesome. I hope you have an great time. Think about us random Christians here in England who only have access to the Backstreet Boys for musical entertainment while you and your family are out there whoopin it up!
Eric,
The tape is just of the three guys jammin'. My ex-boyfriend went to GIT and knew Timmons through Paul Gilbert and Chris Impelliteri (sp??), so we went to this session. Darrell has always been a unique guitarist, too. I think he's very creative. I remember King's X had one hit back then, and they were super nice when I met them, but I would have never known they were Christans. Speaking of old 80's bands, do you remember Racer X and Blue Murder?
1531. EricCartman - 1/26/2000 10:38:12 PM
Jen:
Yes, I remember Racer X and Blue Murder. I liked their first albums, but after that....eh. Gilbert and Bouillet pretty much redefined the concept of twin-guitar playing, imo. Scarified is a watershed in jerkoff virtuoso guitar playing, which I personally like.
I got accepted to GIT in 1991, but couldn't drum up enough money to go. But I did end up meeting and hanging out with Paul Gilbert quite a few times, as he and I had mutual friends. Great guy, tremendous guitar player.
Dimebag Darrell is a pretty interesting player. He doesn't use standard scalar patterns, and his tone is pretty unique, so he stands out. Funny, I've been listening to Cowboys From Hell a lot lately, too. There's some really cool stuff on there.
Re: King's X. Do you remember the band Saigon Kick? When they first started touring outside of Florida, they got an opening slot on the King's X tour. That lasted about 2 months, as King's X found themselves put off by SK's penchant for getting naked during their shows, as well as their partying. A mite uptight, really, as SK was a very good band with an original sound.
1532. joezan - 1/27/2000 4:46:55 AM
Jen:
but I am surprised that you like Sixpence None The Richer...
Why surprised?
I like that jangly, Mr. Tamborine Man kinda sound.
Hey...I bet you didn't know they're a Christian band?
1533. Jenerator - 1/27/2000 6:20:44 PM
Eric,
What a small world! MY ex-bo adored Gilbert as a friend but almost worshipped him as a guitarist. We'd go to his shows, mostly with Mr.Big, and he'd literally take notes as to which settings Gilbert's equipment was on, so that he could duplicate his sound. I never knew that ADA could make so many guitar effects. Plus, they had some sort of secret knowledge with Jackson custom guitars which was entirely over my head. It can be hard dating a musician, they're ALWAYS practicing, and always speaking in different lingo when it comes to their music. His biggest project was mastering the "nano-note" if that gives you any idea as to where his interests were musically. Too much speed play if you asked me. I liked Surfing With The Aliens whereas he preferred anything Steve Vy or Yngvie Malmsteen (I cannot for the life of me remember how to spell their names!)
I like Pantera musically, but ever since Phil started his hard core grunge shouting voice, they're harder to listen to. Before every Cowboys game, and after every win, the local rock stations play "Cowboys from Hell".
Saigon Kick! I DO remember them. I saw them play in California! They were big in Dallas though, so were LSD (Love, Survival, and Drive), Lillian Axe, Pretty Boy Floyd (and their nemesis Ugly Kid Joe), and a handful of others.
Are you in a band nowadays?
JoeZan,
I had heard that SNTR were watered down, Christian in name only and for marketing purposes, top 40, and a one hit wonder band. Granted I have only heard their "Kiss Me", so it's not fair to judge. I trust your opinion more than the gossip I've heard.
1534. joezan - 1/28/2000 4:35:41 AM
Jen:
I guess it depends on your definition of Christian music, or Christian musicians.
IMO, it has been a long, hard battle to get airplay on secular stations for any Christian music. When I was a kid (and I'm talking late 60's-early 70's), it was not unusual to hear Christian-themed songs right there on the weekly Top 40 - quite a few were even big hits - Spirit in the Sky, Everything is Beautiful, Turn, Turn, Turn, Day-By-Day, Jesus Christ Superstar, et al.
None of these songs were performed by artists you or I would say were living a Christian lifestyle, I dare say - but do you think every modern Christian artist is on his/her knees praying whenever they're not performing? Do you think any of them are without vice or sin? (those questions are rhetorical, btw - I know you know better).
1535. joezan - 1/28/2000 4:36:04 AM
Nevertheless, those songs were all part of what was probably the greatest revival of the last 50 years - The Jesus Movement, and probably did more to bring the Gospel to the mainstream than even Billy Graham's crusades. I mean, when I was 13, Jesus was cool. Rod Stewart and Arlo Guthrie both recorded Amazing Grace!. The Staple Singers I Know A Place was a huge hit on the soul charts, and it crossed over to the pop charts, where it was an even huger hit.
Sure, there is probably some danger associated with spreading out from Christian music, and the more success Christian bands find playing "worldly" music, the greater the temptation will be. But right now, Christian music is the fastest growing segment, sales-wise, of all genres. The market - the traditional Christian market - is saturated. Within one to two years, the secular market will no longer be able, financially, to ignore such a large chunk of the music-buying public. So look for more Christian artists to crossover - people like Sixpence and Bob Carlisle have cracked the wall, and it's now only a matter of time.
My prayer is that this will lead secular musicians to look to their spiritual sides for inspiration, and Jesus will be cool again.
1536. joezan - 1/28/2000 4:47:02 AM
Oh! BTW - there is another Christian artist I'm real excited about - Natalie Grant. Maybe you've heard her song Heavenly? Great lungs - up there with Crystal Lewis. Check out her debut CD, titled, oddly enough, Natalie Grant.
1537. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 5:35:46 AM
Zan,
As far as I'm concerned, half of the titles you've mentioned aren't "Christian" at all. Is 'Spirit in the Sky' "Christian" "? You have got to be kidding.
Sure, biblical language and imagery is used in songs like "turn turn turn" but it has nothing to do with nutcase evangelical Christianity, recognize that.
1538. joezan - 1/28/2000 5:49:21 AM
Recognize this, bonehead:
... it was not unusual to hear Christian-themed songs right there on the weekly Top 40.
1539. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 5:52:31 AM
Bonehead yourself, there is exactly nothing "Christian themed" about 'Spirit in the Sky'.
1540. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 5:56:19 AM
Wackoes may see such a theme, but then again the Manson gang acted on messaged they perceived in a completely mundane Beatles song.
1541. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 6:01:10 AM
Off-topic, where are our good friends Mondaugen and Philistine? I miss them very much.
1542. joezan - 1/28/2000 6:02:30 AM
Prepare yourselves, you know it's a must
Gotta have a friend in Jesus
So you know that when you die
He's gonna set you up
with the Spirit in the sky
Gonna set you up with the Spirit in the sky
That's where you're gonna go when you die
When you die and they lay you to rest
You're gonna go to the place that's the best
Not Christian-themed?
1543. joezan - 1/28/2000 6:05:59 AM
And Mondaugen is here quite often, Banks. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up to agree with you...
1544. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 6:16:09 AM
Zan,
Do you recognize irony? Do you really think that song confirms your evangelical mindset?
1545. marjoribanks - 1/28/2000 6:17:20 AM
Mondaugen is here? Where? I miss his rational outlook not to mention his art viewpoint.
1546. joezan - 1/28/2000 6:46:18 AM
Now, let's take a look at the other songs I mentioned:
1) Everything is Beautiful...the intro to the song is a rag-tag children's choir singing Jesus Loves the Little Children.
????Not Christian-themed???
2) Turn, Turn, Turn...a direct paraphrase from a chapter of Ecclesiastes, written by Solomon himself. Oh - but it's O.T. Maybe the Birds were Jewish. (NOT!)
3) Day By Day...is, literally and actually, a prayer to Jesus. My priest sang it while playing guitar quite often when I was 11 or 12.
4) Jesus Christ Superstar...the song, and the play were from start to finish about............Jesus!
5) Amazing Grace....'nuff said.
6) I know A Place...The Staples were a Gospel recording group.
...Gospel, as in Christian Gospel.
Maybe you just forgot all the lyrics?
1547. joezan - 1/28/2000 6:52:52 AM
Banks:
Do you recognize irony? Do you really think that song confirms your
evangelical mindset?
See, this is why I called you bonehead. Where did I even imply that these songs "confirm my evengelical mindset". (Though some - certainly more than half - do).
That's why I said "Christian-themed", and not "Christian".
My point was that rock bands back then could sing favorably about Jesus without being ridiculed or even marginalized, and that I believe that could happen again.
In fact, it will.
Watch.
1548. joezan - 1/28/2000 7:15:44 AM
Well, maybe not often, but Mondaugen has been around - most recently in the TV/Movies thread, I think.
And he's popped in here recently, also.
1549. EricCartman - 1/28/2000 7:33:39 AM
Joezan:
It does seem like Christian bands -- at least the rock ones -- do tend to downplay any specific beliefs when they're doing their requisite PR. The afore-mentioned King's X are an example of that, as they always just said they were "spiritual", rather than specifically Christian. And the interviews I've read recently with Creed are even more vague; in fact the singer seems to get rather irritated at the subject being brought up.
Not their fault really, imho. The record company probably pushes them to remain as vague and universal as popular, to move maximum product. But also, from an artistic standpoint, it's helpful not too be too pushy with your message, whatever it is.
1550. joezan - 1/28/2000 7:38:33 AM
Oh, I dunno...seems plenty of folks in the entertainment industry are getting lots of mileage out of Buddhism.
I figure getting your picture taken with the Dalai Lama's gotta be worth a couple hundred thousand records, a few more tens of millions at the box office.
I wonder if he charges people to sleep at his house?
1551. EricCartman - 1/28/2000 7:43:36 AM
Jen Message # 1533:
Yeah, it truly is a small world. I became acquainted with Gilbert during the brief time Mr. Big was riding high on the US charts with the acoustic ballad To Be With You. (I can say firsthand that some of the band members were pretty damned sick of the song, and resented the fact that all their straight-ahead rock tunes were completely ignored.)
So I went to quite a few Mr. Big shows, and became friends with Paul, and singer Eric Martin. In fact, the band I was in at the time did a couple of little anonymous club gigs with Eric during a Mr. Big tour hiatus. Eric is a good guy, typical singer personality -- funny, cocky, center of attention, knows what makes people tick. Good drinking buddy.
Paul was also a pretty cool guy to just hang out and knock back a couple with. Oddly, we didn't talk music very much, except for maybe the first time I met him. One of my favorite memories from those days was in the bar at the San Jose Radisson. It was after the last show of the tour for Mr. Big, Neal Schon's Hardline, and the Electric Boys, a Swedish funk-rock group. Most of the members of all 3 bands were there, and I spent I don't know how long drinking 7&7's and bullshitting with Gilbert and Hardline drummer Deen Castronovo (now with Ozzy's band). Just talking about old TV shows, mostly, though the more we drank, the more we started doing famous cartoon voices. Castronovo does a pretty good Scooby Doo. Great fun.
1552. EricCartman - 1/28/2000 7:45:30 AM
(cont. to Jenerator):
In one of my earlier rigs I had an ADA too, mostly because Paul had one, and I really liked his sound. That was a couple of years before I actually met him. But in those days, leading up to my applying to GIT, I was just like your ex-boyfriend. I used to call in sick to work sometimes, and spend the entire day, and some of the night, practicing scales and technical stuff. Yngwie Malmsteen's music came in very handy as well for practice material -- it's remarkably quick, he uses unusual scales, and it actually is very musical, very structurally sound. The guy clearly knows his classical theory, but he does tend to be stuck on "pureé" speed.
Agreed on Pantera. I really like the music -- excellent musicianship, great riffs -- but Phil's growl starts peeling my ears back after a few songs. I like the Rob Halford impersonations from Cowboys, though.
After about 10 years of obsessive practice, touring, and dealing with asshole managers and lazy bandmates, I finally quit playing in bands in 1995. I have a home studio slapped together in my house, but I really haven't had much creative inspiration in a couple of years. I still sit around and play guitar, though. That part is still therapeutic. The rest of it just became too much like work.
1553. EricCartman - 1/28/2000 7:47:52 AM
Joe:
Yeah, but Buddhism is seen as being so....non-judgmental. Rock is about wild abandon, and letting go, so it's harder to sell the message of Christianity in that context.
That's just my impression of it as an agnostic, anyway. Personally I have no problem with it, as long it sounds like a song and not a sermon.
1554. KuligintheHooligan - 1/28/2000 2:43:42 PM
"Spirit in the Sky" I always thought was a spoof, sort of a slap at those silly Christians (or religious types in general) that just look to the time when they will go to the "place that's the best." I may be wrong, but I never took the group to seriously believe those things themselves.
One secular rock group of the 90s (and one of my favorites) that has a lot of Christian themes in their songs is Extreme. Not only are they instrumentally talented, but their lyrics are profound. "Am I ever going to change?" is an incredible song about the struggle with sin and doing things you just don't really want yourself doing. It also has a part where the Latin "Absolva" is recited.
Easily, in 50% of their songs they have some Christian theme. But again, I'm not so sure they aren't just being sarcastic at times, or they have had childhood experiences with Christianity and they are now taking potshots at it through their music. The aforementioned song I actually do NOT think it is in any way a parody of Christianity, although I think it does parody the Catholic notion that you can just go to some guy, confess your sins, and he says some Latin lingo that supposedly changes you.
But they have some songs like "Evilangelist" which is clearly taking a hit at evangelists, but I don't think in general, but rather the ones that are in it for the money. I personally love the song, "I can be a watchtowering light, for those who can't see. I separate the truth from the lies, blind faithful, come follow me." The song really rocks.
There are a couple of songs in which they are questioning the existence of God, and some others clearly formed on biblical lines (like "Rise 'N Shine" which uses much from Ecclesiastes, the words of Jesus, and the book of Daniel.)
1555. KuligintheHooligan - 1/28/2000 2:47:04 PM
Then of course there is the "Hole Hearted" one where the lyrics don't seem to fit with it being just a love song, but rather a song about religious/spiritual experience, and again, it rings of Christian themes.
This group clearly has some Christian background and influence, actually, a quite strong influence. They know it well, but my guess is they have come to reject it and parody it at times, yet also flirt with some of its notions in a positive way. Even on an album like "Pornograffitti" they have some Christian influence evident, but most come in their CD "III Sides to Every Story," one of the best CDs I own.
1556. joezan - 1/28/2000 5:45:50 PM
Vic:
I have no problem with a song which questions the existence of God. In fact, just recently there have been a couple of big hits on Christian radio, by major Christian artists, which do just that. Michael W. Smith's Missing Person is, in fact, a lament about losing the grasp on his(our) faith, the older he(we) get(s).
And my favorite Christian artist, Chris Rice, recently had his biggest hit with 'Big Enough':
...
Lying on pillows we're haunted and half-awake
Does anyone hear us pray -
"If I die before I wake...?"
Then the morning comes
and we wrestle face-to-face
With the image of deity
the image of deity...
So God, if you're there,
I wish you'd show me
And God, if you're there
then I need you to know me
I hope you don't mind me asking the questions
But I......
Figure you're big enough
When I imagine the size of the universe
And I wonder what's out past the edges
Then I discover inside me a space as big
and believe that I'm meant to be
filled up with more than just questions
So, God, If you're there...
...
So, it can be done without mocking Him, or marginalizing His believers.
1557. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2000 6:46:11 PM
Tonight we're going to see "Last Night of Ballyhoo". Anyone seen it?
1558. T. Tallis - 1/28/2000 8:49:21 PM
marj:
KurtMondaugen is dead, Long live KurtMondaugen.
And I have enough trouble with rock music in general, let alone Christian Rock (which seems a bit like an oxymoron, when one takes into account many of the reasons for rock's very existence and continuing popularity...rampant misogyny, the cult of the celebrity, and ritualized pageantry, etc.......hmmm, then again, maybe not), to make much comment.
Speaking of dead, I've heard scattered reports (supposedly from Radio Stuttgart) that Pierre Boulez passed away on Friday, but have not seen a tangible confirmation in any papers or news sources as of yet. Aching for info.
1559. Cellar Door - 1/28/2000 9:00:48 PM
I just checked out "Liberation," and two British papers and didn't fins a thing on Boulez.
1560. T. Tallis - 1/28/2000 9:03:49 PM
Probably rumour-mongering, then. I guess we'll see.
1561. KuligintheHooligan - 1/28/2000 9:17:54 PM
"And I have enough trouble with rock music in general, let alone Christian Rock (which seems a bit like an oxymoron, when one takes into account many of the reasons for rock's very existence and continuing popularity...rampant misogyny, the cult of the celebrity, and ritualized pageantry, etc.......hmmm, then again, maybe not)"
A valid point, especially the last comments! I do find it odd when a Christian group does something like, what is it called, "speed rock," or some such nonsense.
But as the use of guitars and drums and keyboards isn't tied to anything "secular" or "sacred," I don't see a problem with Christian "rock groups."
Its just when they start yelling, "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!" as if they are getting frenzied that I worry (or am I thinking of a recent Pentecostal church I attended, I can't recall?).
joezan, agreed. I didn't mean to imply that just because Extreme has some songs questioning the existence of God that they must be parodying Christianity. My comments were based more on their lyrics, where at times they do seem to be strongly opposed to at least some ideas in Christianity, or are making "fun" of people of faith in general.
I'd actually love to sit down and talk to the guys and see exactly where they are coming from.
1562. EricCartman - 1/28/2000 10:01:20 PM
Kuligin:
I forgot about Extreme; you're exactly right about the Christian themes in some of their songs. There are two songs on their first album that are in that vein. One is clearly referring to the Crucifixion, the other refers somewhat to pro-life ideology. Both are pretty decent songs, but that whole first album was a tad rough.
I don't know much about the band members themselves, except for guitarist Nuno Bettencourt -- born in the Azores, youngest of 11 kids in a Portuguese family. He's never really discussed it that I've seen, but I'll go out on a limb and assume he comes from a good Catholic family. I'm sure that informed their lyrical bent to a certain extent.
And yes, "Evilangelist" is definitely a run at the Bakkers and Swaggarts in the TV religion biz, not at religion itself. I don't see them as parodying Christianity. Possibly in some songs they may be taking a slightly more non-judgmental approach to spirituality.
1563. CalGal - 1/29/2000 6:34:18 AM
The lead singer of Extreme went on to sing with Van Halen, didn't he? Although I think Eddie just canned him recently.
1564. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2000 6:39:31 AM
Hey, just back from "Last Night of Ballyhoo" and it was fantastic...Unfortunately, the dinner after contained too much wine so I am altered to the extent that I cannot give a synopsis.
1565. CalGal - 1/29/2000 6:41:31 AM
What is Last Night at Ballyhoo, when you're sober?
1566. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2000 6:48:21 AM
An excellent play about a Jewish family in Atlanta, circa 1939...eve of the premiere of "Gone With The Wind" and the beginning of WWII. It was superb and the dinner after was great: 14 of us at an Italian restaurant, from age 14 to 56.
1567. Candide - 1/29/2000 1:00:54 PM
I was asked some weeks ago by several Moties whether I had seen the Metroitan Opera's production of Mozart's "The Marriage of Figaro". I hadn't then because I live in Sydney. I saw it on television tonight. You have no idea how cranky and difficult I am about that particular opera - every semi-quaver- because it is dear to my heart and no-one can assuage my prejudices BUT. It was BLOODY MARVELLOUS. I wept like a baby just because it was so wonderful to see and hear something so good. I shall die happy because I saw my favourite opera eccentrically performed by artists good enough to be eccentric. Thank you New York.
1568. KuligintheHooligan - 1/29/2000 2:16:22 PM
Eric, I actually have never heard the first album by Extreme. I own three of their albums, Pornograffitti, III Sides to Every Story, and Waiting for the Punchline. I think after the last one, the lead singer left for Van Halen, and I am unsure if they produced anything beyond that. I think they have got to be one of the most talented groups of the 90s, both instrumentally and lyrically, although I'm not sure how successful they've actually been.
Here's some lyrics from "There is no God."
"So you're a self proclaimed messiah
or maybe a blasphemes liar
a clever hypnotic hoax
a hallowed heretic coax
who tells these stories so old
no, never the same twice told
speaking in distorted truths
i see that thomas wants some proof
did you come to heal the sick
with one more magician's trick
ye generation seeks a sign
while blind keeps leading the blind
so you say there is no god
just a clever man's charade
a once upon a fairy tales fraud
has god made man or man made god
there is no god
1569. KuligintheHooligan - 1/29/2000 2:18:31 PM
And although not in the vein of Christian thought per se (although it does sound a bit like the "vanity, vanity" of Ecclesiastes) this line comes from their song "cynical fuck" and just kills me:
"and whatever you do
someone's done it first
though it's sad but true
this is just another verse
if you can't take it with you
then what's the use
i never saw a u-haul
being pulled behind a hearse
1570. Jenerator - 1/29/2000 7:22:10 PM
Joe,
I agree with what you said about the crossovers in Christian and secular music; I guesss I just get worried that those who really aren't Christian, and are merely trying to corner the Christian market, will be thrust into the limelight and it will be more bad press for all things Christian. When I worked for Joshua's, I was able to see firsthand how much Christian music was growing. What a blessing and what a great alternative. By the way, today I found a place that can order Christian CD's!
1571. Jenerator - 1/29/2000 7:31:16 PM
Eric,
You're bringing back all kinds of 80's memories! I remember Hardline, and my best friend was in love with one of the guys from the Electric Boys. She also had a thing for the singer of Bonham. One of my ex-bo's (David) "greatest memories" took place at the now non-existent rock bar The Basement (where Pantera was discovered). One night when we were there, in walked King Diamond -- a very short and scary man. They began to chat, exchanged numbers, and hooked up later. David started jamming with Diamond's guitarist -- some other speed genius, and he hooked David up with Ozzy, who he tried out for, but didn't make.
We broke up almost ten years ago, and last I heard, he had taught guitar lessons, joined a couple of bands, got tired of the general nature of the music business, and is now a seismologist!
1572. RosettaStone - 1/29/2000 7:36:20 PM
Hi, Jen.
Just heard baby Bush on Fox News say that his two favorite bands/musicians are the Neville Brothers and Van Morrison.
Months ago someone told me he was a fan of the Dixie Chicks.
BTW, we now have both of their albums and my daughters are bigger fans of the music than I am.
Thanks for the tip.
1573. Jenerator - 1/29/2000 7:38:05 PM
Rosetta,
Glad to help!;-)
1574. Jenerator - 1/29/2000 7:39:30 PM
Btw, I was already going to vote for Bush, now that the rumor's out he's a Dixie Chick fan, I'm sold out!
Bush for President!
1575. Candide - 1/29/2000 9:52:05 PM
#1567
"Metroitan Opera' was an incoherent attempt to type METROPOLITAN OPERA.
I was sober but excited.
1576. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2000 9:53:35 PM
Ah, the profoundness of Americans choosing those to rule them.
1577. Candide - 1/29/2000 9:56:19 PM
PelleNilsson
Hoho
1578. Candide - 1/29/2000 10:00:43 PM
PelleNilsson
While the Figaro idea is floating: The elegant Swedish televised production in the old Drottingholm theatre set the pace. The Count came into his own as the central character. The Met. repeated this essential dramatic point.
1579. EricCartman - 1/30/2000 8:01:43 AM
Kuligin Message # 1568:
The first Extreme album is OK, not great, but not bad either. It's not conceptually developed the way Pornograffitti and III Sides were. It's worth checking out, though I imagine you'd have a difficult time finding it in Namibia. Nuno Bettencourt is one hell of a guitarist; his 1996 solo effort, Schizophonic, has some interesting stuff on it (though it's very "demo-y" in terms of overall production).
1580. EricCartman - 1/30/2000 8:04:52 AM
Jen Message # 1571:
I was never really into the Mercyful Fate/King Diamond sort of satanic metal, but I've heard a few of their songs, and read some interviews with KD. He is a creepy guy, isn't he? Apparently he is quite serious about his satanic beliefs; it's not a total gimmick. His guitarists, from what little I've heard, are straight out of that Scandiwegian Yngwie-clone school from the mid-80's. Lots of harmonic-minor scales and sweep-picked diminished arpeggios. A more well-known guy also in that category is John Norum, from the Swedish group Europe (remember them?).
I used to play lots of stuff like that too for practice material, but a little goes a long way in actual songs, I found. Only guitarists are really into those kinds of guitar solos.
I liked the Electric Boys' first album quite a lot. They seemed like OK guys, from what little I saw at the Radisson party. Only the singer spoke English very well, but they were all friendly enough (and can drink quite a bit).
Wow, so your ex almost got a shot with Ozzy, eh? That was the Holy Grail for any aspiring hard rock guitarist back in the '80s. Those Randy Rhoads solos were required learning back in those days, even more than Van Halen.
But I can definitely agree with his assessment of the music biz. It can be very demoralizing, once you start really learning how it works. The people who succeed are either fortunate enough to be bankrolled from the get-go, or are willing to do it for free in the first place. You have to be, 'cause you will be losing money at it for years at first, once you factor in all the practice time and equipment costs.
1581. Jenerator - 1/30/2000 6:19:05 PM
Pelle,
Like I was serious!
Eric,
Yeah, David was an enormous Rhoads/Ozzy fan and it made his millennium to both meet him and then try out for him. He never really told me much about his session. My guess is that he was too much of a speed player and far too into the theory bent. There's nothing wrong with that, but when you have an act that's known for it's catchy riffs and inspiring solos, it's hard to thrust an Yngwie in it. Kind of like AC/DC with Yngwie -- it just doesn't work!
I hear ya about King Diamond, the man was legitimately satanic and completely creepy. He only wore black, sported a pentacle, and drank bloody mary mix. All five foot four of him, that is. I know the only reason Dave hooked up with him was for the musical connections. Supposedly, the guitar work on "Abigail" was phenomenal.
I saw first hand how the music biz changed the musicians, especially the talented ones. We used to go see Timmons at little gigs around town and he was very open and approachable. One of those downright nice guys. Well, when Slaughter came to town, opening up for the Vinny Vincent Invasion - ha! what a joke, someone had dropped Timmon's name and then voila, Danger Danger was formed. The success changed him. Then its failure did too. Of course all of that is heresay, but I *did* experience the change the business had on someone who had been so nice at one time.
1582. KuligintheHooligan - 1/30/2000 10:09:12 PM
Eric, you are correct, I wouldn't be able to find an Extreme album here in Namibia, although I have purchased a CD or two from Amazon and gotten them here in about 3 weeks. That ain't bad at all. The latest one I purchased was a CD by Shooting Star.
While in South Africa, though, I have seen an Extreme CD that was a "greatest hits" CD made in Japan. The title was something like "Accidental Combination of Atoms" or some such thing. The cover had a woman's face with one eye abnormally large, etc. But the songs on it weren't my favorites.
Bettencourt is an incredible guitarist as you said. I particularly like the little intro to "He Man Woman Hater" on Pornograffitti. Sort of reminds me of "Flight of the Bumble Bee," guitar style.
1583. Uzmakk - 1/30/2000 10:12:01 PM
1581Jenerator:
Like you weren't?
1584. EricCartman - 1/30/2000 11:52:17 PM
Jen:
I think you guess right as to why David didn't get the Ozzy job, if he was that heavy an Yngwie fan. I've read interviews with Ozzy where he says he doesn't like that Yngwie/Steve Vai-type of guitar playing. He likened it to "watching a mechanic take apart and perfectly rebuild a car engine in three minutes flat -- flawlessly executed, but it leaves me cold. It's all mechanical." That, and he hated all the Randy Rhoads clones that were always vying for the job. The trick is just to be yourself, which is sometimes more difficult than it ought to be.
Too bad about Timmons' sudden ego trip, though I'm sure he was promptly deflated, as Danger Danger never went anywhere. Vinnie Vincent -- now there's a guy I've always heard nothing but bad things about. He has an even worse reputation than Malmsteen.
Kuligin:
Yeah, I guess 3 weeks isn't bad at all, considering where you are. I suppose you could find some pretty interesting stuff in South African music stores. There's so much great stuff overseas that never makes it to the USA; when I went to Europe in '91 on vacation, I only had about $300 spending money, for souvenirs and such. I could have easily spent 10 times that amount on all the musical rarities and bootlegs I saw, just in England and Germany. I did snag a Tesla (remember them?) live bootleg CD in Germany, that I got autographed by the entire band a few years later. It's a collectors' item, for me anyway.
The "He Man Woman Hater" solo in the beginning is in fact called "Flight of the Wounded Bumblebee". That's a fun one. I used to do that at our band shows once in a while, when I didn't feel like doing "Eruption". It always impresses the neighbors.
1585. JJBiener - 1/31/2000 12:28:36 AM
Candide - I saw that production a few weeks ago when it played on public television here in the states. I thought it was very well done. It is difficult to have the humor of the story survive the language barrier, but the performers communicated wonderfully.
1586. Candide - 1/31/2000 5:01:01 AM
JJBiener
I thought it was you who had asked me but I wasn't sure.
One of the joys was the natural relationship between the language and the performance. They all knew what and why they were doing.
I had to swallow a bit to take much of Bartoli's singing but once I had swallowed and accepted her on her own terms I surrendered entirely.
Bryn Terfel WAS Figaro, but for me the star event was Dwayne Croft as Count Almaviva.
I thought Rene Fleming was wonderful too. Believe me, I don't normally go on like this. There is no such thing as a perfect opera performance. You won't ever see a better one of Figaro than that one.
Quibbles: removing the wonderful cool little song for Susanna Deh vieni, non tardar(when she's teasing the concealed Figaro in the outdoors scene) and replacing it with an alternative flashy piece that Mozart wrote for some special performance, spoiled it a little for me, although Bartoli sang and acted the alternative brilliantly. In that scene they are supposed to be outide in a garden, In the original aria Susanna refers to the pine trees. They should have managed to suggest some outdoor verdure of a Spanish variety.
Also there was a moment when the Countess and Susanna were made to touch hands several times in time to the music. Jonathan Miller (director) out of control- as is his tendency.
Rule number one in opera: Never move in time to the music unless you're dancing or marching.
But these are quibbles. It was magic. And what a darling James Levine is.
1587. KuligintheHooligan - 1/31/2000 1:43:20 PM
Eric, I loved Tesla, especially "No way out, no out way, from this living hell.." (can't remember the exact title). I have a CD back in the States with that song on it, but none of their music here unfortunately.
You mean you actually can play "Flight of the Wounded Bumblebee??" I would actually love to SEE it played.
1588. Cellar Door - 1/31/2000 4:38:22 PM
CONGRATULATIONS: BY READING THIS POST YOU HAVE JUST CONTRACTED HIV
(This message was brought to you by the Dan Savage For God Committee)
1589. JJBiener - 1/31/2000 4:41:26 PM
Cellar - As interesting and provocative that last post was, I think it belongs elsewhere.
1590. JJBiener - 1/31/2000 4:49:41 PM
Candide - I knew there was something different in that production, but I couldn't put my finger on it until you mentioned it. I too would have preferred the original.
I am a fan of Mozart's music. There are few composers whose operas I can watch consistently. Mozart is my favorite, but I also like Puccini, Verdi, and some others. I have never cared for Wagner. I hope we see more opera like Figaro in the near future.
When I get desperate, though, I put Amadeus in the VCR and watch that one again.
1591. Jenerator - 1/31/2000 6:40:36 PM
JJ,
Amadeus is one of my favorite movies of all time. Good call!
Eric,
Why is it that "Erupton" is considered by so many to be the greatest solo of all time? There was a contest in Dallas about twelve years ago put on by the hard rock station Zrock with the grand prize being a private lesson with Joe Satriani. Virtually every single one of the contestants submitted an identical recording of "Eruption". I would rather have heard everyone's unique style than some copy.
I like Tesla too.
Uzzmeister,
Like, totally not. I'm so sure!
1592. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2000 7:14:20 PM
I'm listening to Anonymous 4...a group of chanters with an eerie sound. It's a very restful sound. But then, I like Gregorian Chant and not everyone does.
1593. JJBiener - 1/31/2000 7:18:54 PM
Judith - You HAD to bring them up. I had a CD of theirs and made the mistake of loaning it to a friend. I haven't seen either of them since. I sure miss that CD.
1594. theDiva - 1/31/2000 7:20:55 PM
I'm listening to the Thelonious Monk Septet's June 26, 1958 recording of Crepuscule with Nellie. What a beautiful, haunting melody....what a gorgeous performance.
1595. Jenerator - 1/31/2000 8:00:05 PM
Diva,
I kid you not, I totally thought about you this past Sunday. I went to a special service at the Cathedral and was treated to a concert by the boys choir. I heard heaven in their voices, and my mind was filled with thoughts about the centuries of believers coming to hear these same songs being sung by the boys choir. The candles, the robes, the organ.....it was awesome!!
1596. theDiva - 1/31/2000 8:02:10 PM
Jen
ohhhh......that sounds absolutely beautiful. Music is such an important part of worship, and I treasure the time I spend in this ministry. I wish I could have been there with you to see it.
1597. Jenerator - 1/31/2000 8:13:01 PM
Diva,
What do you think?
1598. theDiva - 1/31/2000 8:21:23 PM
Gorgeous. I'd love to go on a European church-hopping tour. You are so lucky to be over there.
1599. Jenerator - 1/31/2000 8:38:10 PM
The first time I went to this cathedral, I accidentally let it slip "This church is amazing!" With a dirty look, the security guard corrected me "This is NOT a church, this is a cathedral. The size alone is the best indicator." I tried to garner some respect from the guy, so I asked, "Doesn't a cathedral also have a bishop seat?" To which he replied "Yes!" and was much more pleasant.
1600. theDiva - 1/31/2000 8:39:56 PM
hence the expression, ex cathedra....
1601. Candide - 2/1/2000 1:28:09 AM
jjBiener
Here I reveal myself as the ultimate prig. It's not that I wouldn't enjoy "Amadeus", but I don't want any other image getting between my apprehension of Mozart and the music. I just can't allow myself the luxury of seeing what I am sure is a vastly entertaining play.
I suppose that in this I resemble Muslims who won't have graven images.
I just don't want to see the face of an actor when I hear Mozart.
Call me crazy.
YOU'RE CRAZY!
1602. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 5:32:47 PM
Been rocking out to God so Loved The Idiot Boy in the shop this morning. Will spin both CD's again and then have lunch.
How about this for the name of a church advertising on the radio-- Messiah Primitive Methodist.
1603. theDiva - 2/1/2000 5:35:18 PM
Dinah Washington's recording of Unforgettable.....
1604. JJBiener - 2/1/2000 5:46:26 PM
Candide - I don't consider you crazy or a prig. I think your position is quite reasonable. I just have a different view. As a musician and composer, I find a great deal of imspiration in Mozart's story. Mozart in many ways was a fundamentally flawed human being. Despite that he wrote some of the most beautiful music ever written. It is encouraging to me that one does not have be perfect at all things in order to create something of beauty.
1605. JJBiener - 2/1/2000 5:50:05 PM
Diva - Last night our cable company added a bunch of new channels. They added all of the VH1 channels, more MTV channels and (drumroll, please) BET's Jazz Channel. I watched it for a couple of hours last night and really enjoyed it. Now that is what I call quality television.
1606. janjon - 2/1/2000 5:52:28 PM
There are times when I listen to something Mozart composed and then learn that he did so when, oh I don't know, eight or nine or ten or even twelve, and I realize that it isn't only the rich who are different from you or I.
There are any number of people for whom the world is a much less rich place because they died young, but Mozart has to be up at the very top of that list.
1607. theDiva - 2/1/2000 5:58:41 PM
JJ
would you believe that, despite the fact that I live 30 minutes from BET HQ, our cable system does not feature BET on Jazz?
BTW, if you get Bravo...there's a bio of Little Jimmy Scott running at 5 tomorrow morning. I'm setting my alarm clock....
1608. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 5:59:11 PM
How about Beardsley, Aubrey Beardsley, is the world a poorer place because he died young: 26 I believe? He was an illustrator, a bookman.
1609. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 6:00:31 PM
Above in reply to
1610. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 6:01:14 PM
janjon 1606.
1611. JJBiener - 2/1/2000 6:12:08 PM
Diva - If it is 5 am your time, it is 4 am my time. There is no way I am getting up that early. Besides, Bravo replays those bios fairly often.
If I were you I would start a letter writing campaign to your cable company to get them to carry the Jazz Channel. From what I have seen so far it is pretty cool. It isn't as slick as VH1 or some of the other channels but to me that only enhances the appeal.
Our cable company also bumped up the number of DMX channels as well from 10 to 36. We now have several jazz stations and a blues station.
1612. theDiva - 2/1/2000 6:13:49 PM
JJ
What's their programming like?
1613. theDiva - 2/1/2000 6:14:07 PM
BET on Jazz, I mean.
1614. JJBiener - 2/1/2000 6:27:44 PM
Diva - Here is the link to BET's website. They show some of the programs that are coming up. Last night I watched a show calld Ad Lib with several different musicians playing live. After that they showed an episode of the old Nat King Cole show. Tonight they have a show on called Latin Beat. It looks very promising.
1615. theDiva - 2/1/2000 6:30:11 PM
sob!
1616. JJBiener - 2/1/2000 6:37:16 PM
Diva - Can you get the email address for your local cable company? Maybe we can spam them until they put BETJ on for you.
1617. theDiva - 2/1/2000 6:38:59 PM
ha!
I should picket their asses. Their office is about two miles from my house.
1618. janjon - 2/1/2000 6:41:16 PM
uzmakk. Oh, Beardsley too, for sure. But he's not in the same league as Mozart.
1619. janjon - 2/1/2000 6:42:24 PM
picking at asses is not very ladylike.
Carry on.
1620. theDiva - 2/1/2000 6:46:33 PM
er.....
1621. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 7:15:36 PM
janjon: I have a book on Beardsley. I recall that the text closes with a remark that Beardsley may have had some kind of insight into "evil". Wild.
1622. janjon - 2/1/2000 8:14:29 PM
uzmakk. My immediate reactions were that the author either was a buff who was just being very theatrical or someone who had his or her eye on writing a sequel. After all, what with Beardsley's short life I suspect that it was a thin book.
1623. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 8:25:55 PM
No, Janjon. Its a Viking Studio book and about an inch and a half thick. Plus a short text. It is admitted that Beardsley is a minor artist but that he had a great effect. "...leaving an immense volume of work and exercising a wider influence abroad than any English illustrator since Hogarth..." text by one John Rothenstein
1624. janjon - 2/1/2000 8:34:23 PM
I can't say I have seen a huge body of Beardsley's work but that which I have seen doesn't remind me of someone who might know "evil". (What a hoky concept at any rate.) As someone who might have dibbed and dabbed into a range of, um, drugs, quite possible.
What did he die of?
1625. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 9:00:09 PM
"Aubrey Beardsley was a prodigy and his career a phenomenon. Born in 1872, diagnosed only seven years later as tubercular; virtually untrained, famous by his early twenties, and dead at twenty-five..." of TB is suspect.
1626. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 9:02:07 PM
of TB I suspect.
1627. Uzmakk - 2/1/2000 9:03:17 PM
Don't know about the drugs, but he was a workaholic like Norman Rockwell.
1628. Uzmakk - 2/2/2000 4:09:56 PM
Now that I think about it, I believe that in the text questions of homosexuality and drug use are covered.
1629. Candide - 2/3/2000 12:08:16 AM
JJBiener
About Mozart. A great writer, who happens to be me, once wrote:
It is hard to define the word 'artist'. For me an artist is someone who can synthesise experience and communicate that synthesis.
I wasn't being phony. I had to say it briefly in an essay.
My encounter with Mozart was visceral. Just as you wouldn't want to see anyone pretending to be your significant other, that's how I feel about Mozart. I know there is richness in what I deny myself.
1630. Candide - 2/3/2000 12:11:22 AM
Uzmakk
I love the naughty Beardsley. And the wicked Wilde. Have you experienced much genuine William Morris? Have you been to London's Victoria and Albert Museum and seen the William Morris room?
If not...do it as soon as possible.
1631. Uzmakk - 2/3/2000 12:42:43 AM
Yes, I have had a wee bit of genuine Morris cross my path. But just a wee bit.
1632. Uzmakk - 2/3/2000 12:43:56 AM
I was considering catching a flight to London this very evening, but decided against it.
1633. Candide - 2/3/2000 1:14:26 AM
Uzmakk
The Victoria and Albert was dirctly on my bus route and I used to live there. Forget looting and pillaging. They looted and pillaged with extreme pesrpicacity. A wonderful place.
I believe it's been tidied up by trained minds since I was there. That's a pity. The haphazard nature of the collection was part of the magic.
1634. Candide - 2/3/2000 1:35:01 AM
Uzmakk
We recently indulged in an extravagant book Art Nouveau by Gabriele Fahr/Becker. Published by Könemann in 1997.
Quite a bit of Beardsley and MORE!
1635. Uzmakk - 2/3/2000 1:17:09 PM
Neat, Candide.
1636. janjon - 2/3/2000 6:15:01 PM
The V&A indeed is priceless. Yes, its been "spiffed" up in many ways over the past few years. But, mostly, for the better. And, some of the nooks and crannies remain just what they've always been - priceless examples of what it means to be English. Their lace collection, for example. Not only looking at it, but at the people who come to pour over it, making copious notes and whatever.
1637. Uzmakk - 2/4/2000 2:51:32 PM
1634 Candide:
Good lord, it certainly takes my brain along tome to come up with reasonable rejoinders. I have an art book called Art Nouveau and Art Deco Bookbinding by Duncan and de Bartha, Harry N. Abrams, Inc. My copy of the Beardsley book is bound in full black leather: my first fine binding project done on a sort of fast track plan. I will show you a picture of it some day soon.
1638. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/5/2000 4:12:08 AM
THIS is for old times' sake.
1639. joezan - 2/5/2000 4:17:30 AM
Beautiful work, Dente.
(Yes - I clicked for the larger images).
1640. Candide - 2/5/2000 4:57:14 AM
janjon
Forgive this tardy response. I used to love the 'Persian" miniatures and the ceramics. I also loved a Japanese Buddha and a Spanish wooden carving of Christ riding on a donkey.
There was so much. I miss it terribly. It's nice to know it hasn't been too tidied up.
1641. Candide - 2/5/2000 5:01:15 AM
Uzmakk
I'd love to see your book. It's a magnificent thing to be a book binder.
We have blonde Thonet chairs round our blonde ovalish-oblong dining table, and rather fancy ourselves in having achieved an art nouveauish look. It evolved. It wasn't deliberate. We found a table we liked that we could afford and then we discovered the chairs.
1642. Jenerator - 2/6/2000 5:57:01 PM
Candide,
Does your Art Nouveau have a beautiful, decorative green cover? I have one published by Taschen that's worth the money! It's all about the French, English and Dutch Nouveau movement in art and architecture; definitely one of my favorite styles. Also, when was the last time you were at the V & A?
1643. JJBiener - 2/6/2000 7:31:48 PM
Wiz - Would you like a link to your site on the butter bar? It would be nice to show our visitors the level of talent we have hanging out around here.
1644. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2000 7:58:31 PM
Is the Wizard Robert Dente?
1645. JJBiener - 2/6/2000 8:31:59 PM
Pelle - The Wiz is free to answer that question, but no one else should.
1646. Cellar Door - 2/6/2000 8:50:20 PM
Don't Wiz/Don't Tell!
1647. JJBiener - 2/6/2000 9:07:02 PM
Cellar - Is that the new policy in the military? Sounds uncomfortable.
1648. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2000 10:02:18 PM
JJ
I was just intrigued by your reference to "your site" (rather than "that site").
1649. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2000 10:04:25 PM
And of course joezan's Message # 1639 (which I overlooked) tells it all.
1650. Candide - 2/6/2000 10:26:27 PM
Jenerator
I haven't got time to look up the book at the moment, but it has a pale golden cover. It covers the European development. By the way, Italy has its own version. There's a building in Milan called in their dialect the "ca brutta" which is well worth seeing.
Gaudi in Spain of course and Paris is full of it. The Metro entries themselves are a joy.
It's years since I was in the V&A. Give it my love.
1651. JJBiener - 2/6/2000 11:53:55 PM
Pelle - I just object to any direct references to real identities unless it comes from the individual himself. If Wiz requests me to do so I will remove the offending posts.
1652. Lucky - 2/7/2000 1:13:33 AM
I am just returning here and trying to get the hang of the "moderated threads" concept. JJ, that seems like a very thoughtful attitude, request, and use of thread moderator powers as far as I am concerned. Perhaps some of the other fora that I have been a part of (mostly all disintegrating now) should have been set up with these guidelines.
Hello again, JJ. How's the music going?
1653. CalGal - 2/7/2000 1:21:16 AM
Congrats, Wiz! Love your stuff, as always.
1654. wonkers2 - 2/8/2000 4:19:20 AM
My son helped create a new commercial music website that was just launched, and I'd like to recommend it to everyone: MongoMusic.com
1655. wonkers2 - 2/8/2000 4:22:31 AM
Sorry, the link doesn't work although the site is up at www.mongomusic.com.
1656. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/8/2000 6:42:52 AM
Thanks, all, for responding — I wasn't expecting it, so I'm a bit nonplussed.
JJ, thanks too for the kind offer. It's sincerely appreciated, but I'll pass. I'm really just an infrequent lurker and drive-by shooter on this bus ...and quite undeserving of such an honor.
1657. Uzmakk - 2/8/2000 12:58:39 PM
Wizard:
Do you make your living with your art?
1658. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/8/2000 2:48:59 PM
Yes Uz, a meager one. 
1659. Uzmakk - 2/8/2000 3:14:21 PM
Ditto, Wiz.
1660. Uzmakk - 2/8/2000 5:47:23 PM
What say we trade some work, wiz? Howzabout you do an installation in my shop and I binds you a book. Market price of the book :$3000 . You gets to design it. I considers myself more of a craftsman than an artist and we can confer on the design. I hope my skill or lack thereof doesn't limit us.
1661. JJBiener - 2/8/2000 6:53:00 PM
Wonkers - Does MongoMusic have an affiliate program yet? Would they like a link on the butter bar?
1662. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/8/2000 9:53:37 PM
Uzmakk-
"Splain' to me, Lucy!" [robertdente@home.com]
1663. Uzmakk - 2/8/2000 9:55:53 PM
Shall do this very eve, wiz.
1664. JJBiener - 2/8/2000 10:51:39 PM
Wiz - I would still like to feature your website, if you are willing. I am a fan of your work and I believe it would be an asset to this thread.
Think about it.
1665. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/9/2000 12:15:29 AM
Sure JJ; thanks for the accolade.
1666. Lucky - 2/9/2000 12:32:46 AM
You deserve the accolades, Wiz. You are an excellent visual artist. Those of us who make a living in the various arts know how hard it is, and you certainly deserve to make more than a "meager" one with your talent.
1667. JJBiener - 2/9/2000 12:33:54 AM
Hey, Lucky. How's it going?
1668. Lucky - 2/9/2000 12:35:42 AM
Fine as frog hair, JJ. Playing blues and writing poetry and stories as always. How is it with yourself?
1669. JJBiener - 2/9/2000 1:16:22 AM
Lucky - Working hard at a new job so my Moting time is limited. I pop in a few times during the day when I can get the time. My band's new line up is working out well. It no longer takes us weeks to perfect a song. We go through a song couple of times and pretty much have it down. My songwriting is suffering from a lack of time, but hopefully I will be able to get back to it soon.
1670. Lucky - 2/9/2000 1:21:49 AM
Actually, I've been working a day job some as well. Now it seems that I get paid to be an "Artist in the Schools." That entails getting up early some mornings (Gaaah!), performing and lecturing to high school kids, and getting home just in time to shower for late-night nightclub gigs. Ahhh, the things we do for money.
1671. wonkers2 - 2/9/2000 3:05:47 AM
JJ, I'm not hep to your terminology. What is the butter bar? What is an affiliate program? Does that mean links provided on other sites for a consideration? I'm sure they're looking for all the free help they can get, and will be pursuing a variety of avenues to attract hits.
BTW, can you tell what I did wrong when I tried to provide a link above? I believe the Mongo site is or will be linked to Amazon to handle purchases by visitors to the site. I tried unsuccessfully to buy a CD yesterday (Take Five, what else?) but didn't get through to Amazon when I hit the "buy" button. The site is just now in the process of launching and de-bugging.
1672. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/9/2000 4:48:13 AM
Hey Luck – thanks, and best wishes on the new day gig!
"The artist appeals to that part of our being ...which is a gift and not an acquisition -- and, therefore, more permanently enduring." [Joseph Conrad]
1673. JJBiener - 2/9/2000 8:10:53 PM
Wonkers - The butter bar is the right hand navigation bar that appears on all of the Mote pages. An affiliate program is where we place a link for their site here in the Mote and we get a percentage of the sales generated by that link. Your link above should have been "http://www.mongomusic.com/". I am sure they will get their bugs worked out over the next couple of weeks. Let me know when they are solid and I will put up a link.
1674. wonkers2 - 2/9/2000 10:39:13 PM
JJ, Thanks! I'm not in a position to speak for Mongo, but I believe the site has a page for such inquiries. Here's another try at a link-- MongoMusic.com
1675. RosettaStone - 2/10/2000 4:00:09 PM
The best way to win an argument is to shape the debate.
Remember that.
1676. PelleNilsson - 2/10/2000 8:05:00 PM
I'm depressed.
The International Herald Tribune has pulled Peanuts and Calvin & Hobbes and replaced them with Dilbert and something called Foxtrot.
So I'm playing John Lee Hooker.
Yeah, yeah, yeah ...
1677. Dantheman - 2/10/2000 8:10:18 PM
Pelle,
Peanuts' last strip is Sunday, so no more are being made. Where are they getting new Calvin & Hobbes from?
Foxtrot is pretty funny, but it helps to be a teenager with serious sibling rivalries.
1678. joezan - 2/11/2000 2:42:35 AM
Time reports that ABBA, those wholesome Swedes we all knew and loved, were recently offered $1,000,000,000 (by a "US/British consortium that prefers to remain anonymous) to do a 100-city worldwide tour, but turned it down.
Wow!
1679. Candide - 2/11/2000 7:35:01 AM
cmboyce
from International
It was some nationalistic outpourings on the International thread that made me think of the romantic force.
Please Rock enthusiasts, this is continued from International where I said I knew good things were happening in rock and I didn't want to talk much about it since it would sound like an ancient bigot missing the point. The following is within another context.
I see the Rock Industry as being (at least here and in Britain in my time there) a cynical exploitation of youth and not an expression of it. If sometimes they manage to use it creatively, more power to them.
In Sydney one is often next to a car that is just one big bass thudding vibration and the car is usually driven by a youth with an expression like a zombie. I have been to rock concerts and I found the group conformity quite awful. Desmond Morris would have recognised most of the body language.
And should you mention the conformity of audiences at classical concerts, I agree. But not to the extent of Rock concerts.
My dark secret is that in me halcyon days, I was quite good at crowd control. It takes one to know one. I loved that feeling in a recital of being able to hear a pin drop and knowing that the audience was thinking along with you and seeing the song the way you did. Very heady stuff.
But I hate the cynical way the need for peer-acceptance etc. has been exploited by older people who absolutely know what they are doing and who have base commercial intentions. I think harm is done, because it happens to kids when they are very receptive and could be having better formative experiences.
I
1680. Candide - 2/11/2000 7:36:40 AM
cmboyce
I have another story that I was reminded of today when my week-old copy of the Saturday La Repubblica arrived.
My first job in Britain was in a production at Glyndebourne, of Mozart's 'Magic Flute'. The sets and costumes were designed rather like a tarot card pack. The designer was an Italian Jewish artist Emanuele Luzzati. He escaped the fascists and spent the war in Lausanne. But he was very marked by the horrors.
The predominant colourin the sets was an intense deep blue and the other colours were paleish green-blues and other watery magical contrasts with flashes of yellow. Luzzati has produced many Jewish illustrations in memory of the Eastern European Jews and their lost culture.
When I arrived in Australia I decided I wanted to study Italian and I had private lessons from a woman who turned out to have been the constant childhood playmate in Genova of Luzzati, whom she called Lele.
He has returned to live in Genova saying it is still his home.
The tenor in the production was the African American tenor George Shirley and he was sublime, and a lovely chap.
It was a collaborative effort that transcended time and place. It was no sort of international horror. Not one of those soulless, jammed-together hastily jobs that prevail in expensive houses with expensive casts. In the cast were a German conductor, an American tenor and soprano, assorted Brits, Germans, Irish, Welsh, Indians, a New Zealander, a Canadian, a Swiss, and an Argentinian.
And Schickaneder and Mozart's music-drama, aided by the colors and drollery of Luzzati was unforgettable, not just for the cast.
1681. Candide - 2/11/2000 7:43:30 AM
I should add there was a big article about Luzzati in my copy of La Repubblica which took me back a bit. I also thought the coincidence of becoming a friend and pupil of his childhood playmate was extraordinary.
1682. cmboyce - 2/11/2000 7:50:32 AM
That sounds like a nice production of the Flute.
As to r and r, well, I imagine quite a lot of people thought much the same thing about jazz audiences in the 20s and 30s. Maybe about waltzers a century earlier.
And in any case, while I wouldn't want to lean on it too much, I'm sympathetic to the notion that "mass behavior" can be spiritually envigorating and may, moreover, be a necessary ingredient for social amity in the overcrowded world that is soon to be upon us. On our children, anyway. Let alone on space stations. (And I am uncomforted by the likelihood of plateauing at 15 billion.)
1683. Candide - 2/11/2000 8:10:40 AM
cmboyce
Jazz has improvisation (OK some r & r also) but jazz has SOUL and moods. OK some r&r also. But that damned beat kills flexibility. Even relative to itself.
I had to work closely with a big rock star during some political times. The EGO! The overblown self esteem. And he was a nice one.
An environmentalist and God knows how much energy their show burned up.
1684. Candide - 2/11/2000 8:12:42 AM
cmboyce
I admit it. I've enjoyed marching with the righteous.
1685. SnowOwl - 2/11/2000 8:23:10 AM
Candide,
Different types of music have different constraints. What you seem to be doing is pitting one type of music against another and saying that one is "better", rather than different.
I'm sure no-one doubts that the music industry tries to exploit young people. Industries of all description try to exploit us all, every day. Even so, the attempt at exploitation doesn't necessarily make the products being sold bad products.
1686. Candide - 2/11/2000 9:01:17 AM
SnowOwl
I wasn't contrasting anything but the conniving expoiters. In Sydney it's most noticeable.
I dare say that IMO (humbly) a lot of the product is total and absolute, unmitigated shit.
Nothing against gathering and dancing and making music. I played in a dance band once myself.
I'm cooking so I can't Mote. I looked as I ran past.
I'll wear that view I expressed in splendid isolation if it helps at all. I succumb to most strange seductions be they ever so loud or dissonant. It's not that that disturbs me.
1687. Candide - 2/11/2000 9:02:56 AM
PS
It is to music what steamed wrapped sliced bread is to cooking.
Generalisation with small gap for poetic genius to fill when appropriate.
1688. Candide - 2/11/2000 12:50:59 PM
PS for those who felt I'd gone too far:
And LO. An angel came this evening on TV and filled that small gap in the form of an interview Michael Parkinson made last November with Paul McCartney who performed just with the guitar and his voice and it was truly lovely. And alone with piano. It was musical and touching and good by any standards. If I sounded a bit narky before it was only a cry of suffering.
So much poncing mediocrity gets by under the din of the rhythm section.
McCartney proved he was Orpheus.
I have always admitted that there are spots of light in the thumps.
1689. joezan - 2/11/2000 1:11:09 PM
Candide:
I like your points regarding rock music. And I agree - it's a very exploitative business. I've always been amused at how kids define their individuality by the music they listen to (even though *I* once did the same. But dammit! - kids are much more savvy to the whole music marketing process today than they ever could've been in my day, and they should know better. Or at least know that the brand of music they listen do does not set them apart from the next kid in the slightest).
BTW...I'm very interested in knowing what good things you see happening in rock music.
1690. Candide - 2/11/2000 10:42:02 PM
joezan
I thought my head would have been blown off by this morning and instead I found your sympathetic response. I won't say thank you because the important thing is that we say what we believe. It did cheer me up though.
What I hate most about mediocre r & r is the way it fills the silence in the heads of the kids.
cmboyce compared the mass hypnotic reaction of its audiences to jazz or the waltz, but I don't believe that the comparison holds. The morons who click their thumbs at jazz performances and imagine that this shows they're having a rhythmic experience are there for the group solidarity (it's always the ones who refrain from bodily movement or sound who are having the real experience) and as cmboyce remarked, the group experience may sometimes be beneficial. The line between that experience and an out of control mob is an interesting one though.
cont.
1691. Candide - 2/11/2000 10:42:45 PM
I should say that a Strauss waltz (mentioned by cmboyce) has musical and atmospheric values and the dance itself when well done feels rather like flying. I don't advocate compulsory 19th century poshery.
I won't moralise about the drugs that are sold at large r & r gatherings. But I do think that constant head and mind-occupying noise leaves kids with an emotional void to fill. They have no way of developing an inwardness and personal strength that would, at least to some degree, support them in this difficult world.
I'm not a teetotaller so I don't preach here either.
cont.
1692. Candide - 2/11/2000 10:43:11 PM
I think that within the r & r business there are some genuine talents but the wider social pattern buries them.
I also think that in the context of social manipulation the hero-worship and adulation is pathetic.
I think the kids are being robbed of their potential and turned into consumers for a shallow 'vanity fair'.
The group with which I had most experience tried to use its words to promote uplifting ideas about the environment, racism etc. and the lead singer resembled a dancer from pre-war Berlin. The all over aesthetically violent message contradicted the words. Also I don't think that music that caused me to be partly deaf for nearly a week is conducive to the development of the inner life. It's like chilli in food - it becomes addictive and the palate suffers.
In Sydney there are vast barns where these occasions are held. They cost a fortune and go on for several days on occasion.
The word that comes to mind is 'sad'.
1693. joezan - 2/11/2000 10:56:48 PM
Candide:
Thanks.
Now, duck!
1694. Candide - 2/11/2000 11:14:35 PM
joezan
Did you set me up?
Any resemblance in the above posts to any persons living or dead is purely coincidental. No pussy cats were harmed during the writing of this post.
The writer accepts no responsibility for any ideas that may have occasioned offence. So ••• •••••••
1695. robertjayb - 2/11/2000 11:16:57 PM
.
Screamin' Jay Hawkins Dies at Age 70
PARIS (AP) -- Screamin' Jay Hawkins, the larger-than-life American blues singer and pianist who shocked the music world at the dawn of rock with his crazed shrieking and bizarre stage antics, died Saturday. He was 70.
1696. Candide - 2/11/2000 11:26:56 PM
robertjayb
Have you seen the New Zealand movie Heavenly Creatures based on a real event? Mario Lanza features in a big way in that one.
1697. cmboyce - 2/12/2000 6:32:10 PM
Here's a fascinating article (imo) on neurological responses to music. Those of you who are yourselves musicians may have varied responses to it. It does seem to contain the beginnings of "facts" about music, though they are not fully developed.
1698. RickNelson - 2/12/2000 6:41:16 PM
Charles Schulz died peacefully yesterday, his family was with him. He was 77. A native of St.Paul, Minnesota, his long running comic strip, Peanuts will be retired. His contributions to comic art were and are influential even today. He will not be forgotten here at home.
1699. arkymalarky - 2/12/2000 6:43:33 PM
I thought when he stopped his strip that it was sad that now Charlie Brown will never get the Little Red-haired Girl's attention.
1700. RickNelson - 2/12/2000 6:47:14 PM
Did you know the little red haired girl is his wife? He tried for some time to catch her attention which she initially snubbed. He wrote it into his strip. He was a good man. I loved his comic.
1701. arkymalarky - 2/12/2000 6:48:29 PM
You know, Rick, I did hear that now that you mention it, but I'd forgotten!
1702. RickNelson - 2/12/2000 6:51:45 PM
Also, Snoopy was the first do all comic character. He was the first animal to walk on two legs. He could appear anywhere and do anything. So many comics followed Schulz lead it is amazing how influential Snoopy is to the art.
1703. RickNelson - 2/12/2000 6:57:19 PM
I hadn't noticed dusty has mentioned the passing of Schulz in Current Events. For the record he mentioned it first and attached a link.
1704. cmboyce - 2/12/2000 7:11:29 PM
Rick, I admire "Peanuts" a great deal as well, and I too regret Charles Schultz' departure. And Snoopy's. But I must observe that Snoopy isn't even close to being the first bipedal animal figure in the comics. Consider (from my two favorite strips) Pogo and Krazy Kat.
1705. arkymalarky - 2/12/2000 10:30:15 PM
CMB,
Do you have "Ten Ever-Lovin' Blue-Eyed Years With Pogo"? It's a wonderful collection of Kelly's cartoons with some great commentary from him.
1706. RosettaStone - 2/12/2000 10:40:59 PM
I just purchased a bluegrass album by Alison Krause called "Baby, Now That I've Found You."
The Nashville singer/fiddler sounds like an angel. Anyone know more about her?
1707. arkymalarky - 2/12/2000 10:42:38 PM
I don't, but my brother and parents all like her a lot. She has a very smooth, natural voice.
1708. robertjayb - 2/12/2000 11:47:49 PM
.
I believe she came out of straight-ahead bluegrass and was a champion fiddler from a tender age. I read recently about an effort to tart her up a bit for crossover appeal. I hope they don't.
BTW, an Alison Krause was one of the four students murdered at Kent State.
1709. sakonige - 2/13/2000 12:04:10 AM
I know it's a terrible thing to say, but I never really liked the Peanuts comic strip. I think Charles Shultz was a cat hater like Walt Disney was, and that annoyed me in his work.
1710. RosettaStone - 2/13/2000 1:36:12 AM
I loved Peanuts, especially the charcter "Lucy".
One of the reasons why I've always liked MsIvorytower is because she reminds me so much of her.
1711. joezan - 2/13/2000 2:01:57 AM
Rosetta:
That is amazing. Really. Several months ago - no...it had to be almost a year ago, because the Fray was still working ok - I typed up a list of fraygrants with a corresponding list of cartoon characters. It's still saved. I was going to make it into a two-column mix-n-match puzzle, but thought better of it because I didn't want to offend anyone.
Anyway, I had MsIT and Lucy on the same line.
(All apologies to The Ms. I was Jughead, btw.)
1712. Candide - 2/13/2000 6:21:56 AM
Vale Schulz. He has entertained me for a good period of my life. My husband used to bring home Peanuts cartoons from his newspaper office that got the Seoul Republic. That's how I met Peanuts children. Through the Vietnam War.
I'm sorry he didn't like cats, but I dare say he would really when he met one.
1713. Candide - 2/13/2000 6:24:08 AM
cmboyce
That Economist article about music was fascinating. I would have liked to pose a few questions to the writer and investigators though. They made such cultural assumptions based on Western music as the norm. I suppose conditioning would affect responses, but dissonance is all in the ear of the listener.
1714. Fat Bastard - 2/13/2000 6:54:08 AM
I think Charles Shultz was a cat hater like Walt Disney was, and that annoyed me in his work.
Oh, lots of people hate cats. I don't blame 'em one bit. Cats are independent, arrogant, inconsiderate, destructive, demanding and insolent. My cats act out my anti-social impulses for me. In my next life I'll be a cat and spray Snoopy's doghouse. Heh.
R.I.P. Charles --you did good.
1715. Jenerator - 2/14/2000 8:31:18 PM
Rosetta,
Do you like The Corrs?
1716. Jenerator - 2/14/2000 8:38:09 PM
They're Irish and they can play the fiddle like the best of them! This photo is from their album; beauty runs in the family. 
1717. RosettaStone - 2/14/2000 10:04:11 PM
Sorry, Jen, I think I saw a video of them somewhere but I can't hear their music in my head. They sure look attractive.
BTW, I've found the perfect trip for your Easter vacation. Take a cruise around UK and Ireland. It's the small 110-passenger M.S. Caledonian Star. It departs from Edinburgh goes around Scotland and the Outer Hebrides and then south to the western side of Ireland and finally landing at Dover.
Sure it will be cold, wet and dark, but, when you do have daylight, what scenery...
1718. janjon - 2/14/2000 10:22:28 PM
Lets see. At time of the year at that latitude, you probably would have daylight for about seven hours every day. Maybe eight.
1719. arkymalarky - 2/15/2000 2:02:24 AM
My daughter loves The Corrs. I'm glad, since I don't mind hearing it in the car nearly as much as some of her other CD's.
1720. RosettaStone - 2/15/2000 2:24:44 AM
They aren't the band who did the "Bewitched" CD are they?
1721. arkymalarky - 2/15/2000 2:50:56 AM
I don't know. Mose has one of their albums, but I don't know the title.
1722. Uzmakk - 2/15/2000 12:20:06 PM
Candide:
Loved your rock industry analysis. I'm a bit slow. So much to read here on the Mote.
1723. RosettaStone - 2/15/2000 1:55:06 PM
And reading aloud with your finger on the computer screen moving left to right doesn't help.
1724. Uzmakk - 2/15/2000 2:00:03 PM
Rosetta:
???????
1725. RosettaStone - 2/15/2000 2:10:19 PM
Just seeing if you were awake...
...And reading.
1726. Jenerator - 2/15/2000 7:36:24 PM
Rosetta,
"BTW, I've found the perfect trip for your Easter vacation. Take a cruise around UK and Ireland. It's the small 110-passenger M.S. Caledonian Star. It departs from Edinburgh goes around Scotland and the Outer Hebrides and then south to the western side of Ireland and finally landing at Dover."
Thanks for thinking of me. I may go to Scotland in March. It depends on certain details that I have no cotrol over though. I'd love to see the rest of the UK, but not right now. It's cold, rainy, and dark. Plus, Ireland and Scotland get hammered with wind right now. Southern France is looking pretty attractive. I need some sun darnit!
1727. Candide - 2/19/2000 1:30:15 AM
I'm listening to a composition by Michael Doherty called "Dead Elvis" set for chamber ensemble and Elvis impersonator. It is based on Stravinsky's "Soldier's Tale" with the theme of selling out to the devil. Elvis is portrayed as succumbing to Hollywood (Devil).
I thought it an interestingly nutty idea.
I know nothing of M. Doherty.
1728. Candide - 2/19/2000 1:36:57 AM
Michael Doherty (sp?) is an American composer.
1729. MsIvoryTower - 2/19/2000 5:21:16 AM
I just picked up the new Macy Gray album (she's up for new artist of the year at the Grammy's). It's very smooth. A nice mix of street funk, jazz/blues, and just plain ole' good rock.
1730. MsIvoryTower - 2/19/2000 5:23:45 AM
And.....
I recommend it.
1731. Lucky - 2/19/2000 6:29:49 AM
I am playing harp and organ on this cut.
1732. Candide - 2/19/2000 6:54:08 AM
Uzmakk
Thanks. I too read slowly.
1733. Candide - 2/19/2000 7:00:09 AM
LUCKY
That was GREAT! Are you all strapped up with instrument?
It was really great. I was scared it wouldn't be and I wouldn't know what to say — but, no problem. Terrific.
1734. Candide - 2/19/2000 7:01:25 AM
Lucky
instrumentS
1735. PelleNilsson - 2/19/2000 10:28:37 AM
Lucky
Great stuff!
What do you mean by "harp"?
1736. EricCartman - 2/19/2000 10:38:07 AM
Pelle:
"Harp" is slang for harmonica. I have no idea why.
1737. PelleNilsson - 2/19/2000 11:30:41 AM
I see. I had difficulties in reconciling both the sound and Lucky himself with that instrument normally played by demure ladies.
1738. RosettaStone - 2/19/2000 2:42:24 PM
Nice playing, lucky. It reminds me of one of my favorites--The Paul Butterfield Blues Band.
1739. Candide - 2/19/2000 11:07:56 PM
Lucky
It has such a lovely relaxed pulse. My old dad played what he called the mouth organ and I got one as soon as I could stagger. It went with me into trees, my mud heap (we were too poor for sand) and I used to serenade my mother's hens. I always give a handout to buskers with mouth organs. I could whizz through 'Turkey in the Straw' before I started to go to school. A real joy, your little piece was.
1740. Lucky - 2/19/2000 11:33:20 PM
Not a whole lot of respect is given to people who play a little hand-held silver instrument that can be bought for under $20 American. I am mostly a keyboard player, but enjoy "blowing and sucking" on the harmonica as well. My wife solemnly says that it is an art that is carried over to other pursuits. Heh.
1741. EricCartman - 2/20/2000 12:03:42 AM
Ha ha! I liked your music as well, Lucky. I have a good friend who is a very good harmonica player, and it doesn't seem easy at all. I've tried it before, and can't play harp to save my life. And I've played guitar, bass, keyboards, and drums over the last 20 years. So I definitely give harp players their props -- it ain't as easy some people think it looks.
1742. joezan - 2/20/2000 12:11:53 AM
Lucky:
That really was great...especially the harp part. That's quite a band you've got.
1743. Uzmakk - 2/20/2000 2:57:30 AM
I, alas, cannot hear Lucky. Incompatable software.
1744. phillipdavid - 2/20/2000 3:48:34 AM
You're missing out, Uzmakk...you don't have RealPlayer?
Lucky, that is a very nice sound. I used to play harp, but gave it up in my early twenties. Listening to your clip makes me want to go out and buy myself a few to see if I can still do it. (20 bucks? Back when I bought 'em they were only 7 bucks.)
1745. ScottLoar - 2/20/2000 4:11:23 AM
Lucky, you're a man of talents.
1746. egg - 2/20/2000 4:46:58 AM
I just read parts of a Beatles' bio that explained what the name "Rubber Soul" meant. I thought I knew but the real answer is slightly different from what I had read before.
Serious as their newfound dedication to sound was, a rediscovered taste for whimsy was another by-product of their new drug of choice. "Let's have a laugh" was their private code for "Let's go get stoned." On February 14, 1965, the same day that McCartney recorded "Yesterday," he also recorded "I'm Down," a raving parody of Little Richard, delivered with blithe abandon. At the end of the first take of "I'm Down," McCartney, audibly pleased with his performance, muttered "plastic soul, man, plastic soul" --a phrase that, slightly changed, would become the title of the Beatles' next album, "Rubber Soul."
--Flowers in the Dustbin, James Miller
1747. theDiva - 2/20/2000 5:20:37 AM
#1731
go 'head wit' yo bad self, Lucky. Good stuff.
1748. Fraaankster - 2/21/2000 7:50:07 AM
Sometimes I imagine myself as a drifter
Seeker of fortune
Connoisseur of great wines
Dashing thru meadows of yellow and green
Trying to catch the impossible dream
Leaving the straight life be-e-e-h-h-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-n-d
Sometimes my thoughts may find me in Mexico
Drinking tequila, going out of my mind
Having a ball on a couple of bot
Treating the ladies to corn-on-the-cob
Leaving the straight life be-e-e-h-h-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-n-d
Suddenly all my silly thoughts disappear
She comes to me softly with crackers and beer
Winking and blinking and blowing my ear
Running away with my mi-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-d
It's great to be in love, I'm not really thinking of -
leaving the straight life behi-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-d
I'm just playing a game in my mind
Do,do,doot,do,do,do,do...
Once in awhile in my mind I go bumming
Going to nowhere with no worry of time
Running along, chasing after a train
Humming a song in the sun, in the rain
Leaving the straight life be-e-e-h-h-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-n-d
I can just see me on a tropical island
Riding the surf and drinking coconut wine
Having me fun with golden girls in the sand
Chasing the sun through an innocent land
Leaving the straight life be-e-e-h-h-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-n-d
Suddenly all my silly thoughts disappear
She comes to me softly with crackers and beer
Winking and blinking and blowing my ear
Running away with my mi-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-d
It's great to be in love, I'm not really thinking of -
leaving the straight life be-e-e-h-hi-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-d
I'm just playing a game in my mind
Do,do,doot,do,do,do,do...pop, pop, pop, pop, pa-da, pop, pap, pop, pop, parop-pop ...
...Shit!
1749. Fraaankster - 2/21/2000 7:51:15 AM
(sniff)
Damn LA's KLAC ! How dare they take me back to my childhood !?
( Honk!)
1750. Uzmakk - 2/21/2000 3:55:59 PM
When I try to get Lucky's link my computer tells me that it is not a realaudio document.
1751. arkymalarky - 2/22/2000 1:29:09 AM
Mine did that too, Uz. I mentioned it in the Cafe.
1752. Lucky - 2/22/2000 3:46:05 AM
Guys, I have been hesitant to post here in the last couple of days. Sorry if I became overeager... I know you people have known each other for a long time.
That said, the only solution I can come up with on your seeming unavailability of my RealAudio file is this -- perhaps you do not have the free download of "G2RealAudio." It is different than just having computer capability to play RealAudio files. Ya hafta go to the site and download it. I'm not that much of a tecchie, though, so I could be wrong.
1753. Uzmakk - 2/22/2000 1:09:58 PM
Attention. Attention. Swedes, Danes, Frenchies, and Jenerator types studying in England:
Igor and I have been listening to Ron Sexsmith in the shop and we just don't get tired of his songs.Turns out that he is a Canadian. Most super talented people on this side of the Atlantic turn out to be Canadian. Igor checked out the Sexsmith website and, lo, the lad is touring in Europe now. I suggest that seeing this fellow perform may be a worthwhile experience for all Moties. I have never seen him perform, but he has written some wonderful songs. The melodies stick in one's mind and the lyrics verge on the poetic.
1754. Uzmakk - 2/22/2000 2:38:18 PM
If that didn't work try this and click on "Tours" at the bottom. I just love the idea of Odin circulating among unknowing Swedish teeny-boppers in Upsala.
1755. RosettaStone - 2/22/2000 3:35:17 PM
Jen: Don't be an "American Woman" and follow the sun south on your spring-break vacation when you can experience something unique in cold, wet, dark Ireland and Scotland. For example, the UISCE BREATA.
Visualize the music behind this copy from a new CD I just purchased from Starbucks (of all people!) called "Fits of Passion."
"Evening falls in rural western Ireland, the windscept highlands of Scotland, the salt-sprayed shores of Nova Scotia's Cape Breton Island. Inside cottages and pubs here and there, hearth fires burn turf, coal or wood. Tea, coffee, stout, biscuits and sandwiches are served, and someone savors UISCE BREATA, Gaelic for "water of life."
The neighbors, having hung up their coats, find seats and take out their instruments. A SEISIUN (music jam) is about to begin. Even those who don't play or have an instrument are still expected to contribute to the CRAIC (good time), whether by singing a song, telling a story or dancing. Fiddlers rosin their bows, flutists
moisten their mouthpieces, and pipers check the reed in their chanters. When all is ready , a slight nod sets them into motion, pouring forth jigs, reels, hornpipes and slow airs for the sheer pleasure of it. Their unbridled joy in the music relieves the rigors of everyday life.
This, at heart, is Celtic music. Historically an oral tradition, it's passed on personally from friend to friend, father to son, mother to daughter. The music is played in pubs, parlors, kitchens and dance halls, and dates back many centuries
1756. theDiva - 2/22/2000 3:37:51 PM
Stone, is that one of those Borders Samplers for two or three bucks? Based on your post, I may just pick that puppy up.
Lucky, please don't be hesitant to post. I think it'd be great to have the perspective of yet another working musician in this thread. You're an interesting person.
1757. PelleNilsson - 2/22/2000 3:45:40 PM
cm
To return to the Enquist book. In English it might be called The Visit by the Court Doctor. The story plays out in a few years around 1770. Denmark is then an autocracy. But the king is an alcoholic and in bad health. The real power is wielded by the high-ranking courtiers. The Crown Prince, just a boy, also in ill health and with mental problems, is trained to play the Autocrat on the scene of the world but not to interfere in government. The lessons are literally whipped into him.
The Court Doctor who is called in to tend to the royals is called Struensee. He is an Enlightenment man coming from Denmark's German possessions where that movement is strong (Kant et al. He wins the confidence of the boy who is elevated to the throne when the old king dies soon after Struensee's arrival. The new king is married to an English princess. Struensee becomes her lover. From this position he breaks the power of the old guard and becomes effectively Denmark's dictator in 1770. How this happens is interesting. The courtiers dominate the king, but they cannot refuse to carry out his orders because the king is anointed by God. So when the king starts to issue orders drafted by Struensee there is nothing they can do.
Struensee abolishes several repressive instruments of governance and starts to convert Denmark into a liberal state. His capacity for work is amazing.
But his illicit liaison with the Queen is his achilles heel. He is overthrown and exceuted in 1772 and matters revert to how they were.
So, this is a simple account of the historical chain of events which Enquist has turned into a very good, even compelling, book.
What is not at all clear to me is how the "Struensee episode" is evaluated by Danish historians.
1758. cmboyce - 2/22/2000 4:00:57 PM
Sounds good, Pelle. I'll look forward to the court doctor's visit to Anglophonia.
1759. RosettaStone - 2/22/2000 4:11:14 PM
Diva:
Cead Mile Failte (a hundred thousand welcomes)!
It's $11 at the local coffeehouse in Bethesda. I just purchased it this morning.
The songs on "Fits of Passion" are: John Barleycorn (Traffic); Gramma (Natlie Mac Master); Donal Agus Morag (Altan); Mo Ghille Mor Fogham'each (Mary Jane Lamond); Dirty Old Town (The Pogues); On Taobh Tuathail Amach (Kila); The Miller of Drohan (Lunasa); The Ballad of Accounting (Karen Casey); The Water is Wide (Niamh Parsons); I Am a Maid That Sleeps in Love (Solas); Soup of the Day (Old Blind Dog) Alasdair Mhic Cholla Ghasda (Capercaillie); Weep Not For the Memories (Seamus Egan); Newgrange (Clannad); Music For a Found Harmonium (Patrick Street)
I'm Irish and picked it up because St. Patrick's Day is coming. Maybe we can get CharleyL to review it for us. He knows a lot about celtic music.
1760. theDiva - 2/22/2000 4:13:55 PM
Stone
Would it surprise you to learn that I'm 1/8th Irish? I've enjoyed what I've heard of Celtic music, though I couldn't identify artists and such. It would be interesting to get Chuck's take on this.
Speaking of Chuck, where he been? I want a copy of the new CD.
1761. theDiva - 2/22/2000 4:15:11 PM
1/8th? Is that right? My maternal grandfather's mother was Irish...Garrigan.
1762. RosettaStone - 2/22/2000 4:20:43 PM
CharleyL follows me around Table Talk. He's one of my biggest fans. Next time I see him, I'll tell him to read this thread.
1763. theDiva - 2/22/2000 4:21:24 PM
You two.
1764. cmboyce - 2/22/2000 4:27:23 PM
Message # 1761
That makes you 1/16 Irish, Deev.
1765. theDiva - 2/22/2000 4:40:39 PM
Thanks, cm. I'm somewhat impaired arithmetically.
1766. cmboyce - 2/22/2000 10:13:17 PM
Pelle mentioned in International the death of Hundertwasser, the Viennese abstract painter and architect. I feel a sentimental fondness for Hundertwasser. I remember coming across his paintings when I was first becoming aware of modern art, at about age 22 and being delighted at their oddity and bold rich colors. A typical piece might consist in a squarish spiral working its way out from somewhere a little off center to fill the square or near-square canvas, the line itself, say, vermilion changing to purple changing to a bright blue. Or it might be all black, with similar colors between the "tiers" of the turning. Then the whole overlaid with numerous equally brightly colored abstract motifs—little collections of shapes, crescent moons, etc, and, almost always, a pair or two of weird eyes. All of this very nicely and deliberately but eccentrically drawn; the sides of squares waveringly, eg, and the spiralling matrix likewise. The overall effect is one of joie de vivre qualified with a whiff of very slightly sinister oddity.
I remember Hundertwasser fondly, but I don't think he deserves the sort of reputation I understand he has in Austria—a giant of the modern. He's really something of a decorator. But I still like his paintings well enough when I encounter them. (And I suppose I will, in the next few days; a disturbing feature of an artist's obituary is feeling just faintly pleased that one is reading about/seeing work by the guy, as though the circumstance that brought this about were not in itself tragic. (Though I suppose death at 71 is not necessarily, or even likely to be, tragic.) Anyway, I've always like the spirit of system-gone-amok that is in the best of those paintings. Can't say I care much for Hundertwasserhaus, though (an illustration of which is linked at Pelle's post at International). Never mind, it doubtless brightens up what looks like an unprepossessing neighborhood.
1767. cmboyce - 2/22/2000 10:18:34 PM
Pelle's link is at Message # 7593 in thread 8.
1768. PelleNilsson - 2/22/2000 10:35:01 PM
And here is a Hundertwasser painting, called The 30 Day Fax Picture
1769. joezan - 2/22/2000 10:36:01 PM
Diva:
Thanks, cm. I'm somewhat impaired arithmetically.
...Must be the Irish.
1770. cmboyce - 2/22/2000 10:46:16 PM
Hey, very nice, Pelle! A little (maybe a lot) later than the ones I was thinking of.
1771. cmboyce - 2/23/2000 12:40:34 AM
Hey, very nice, Pelle! A little (maybe a lot) later than the ones I was thinking of.
1772. Lucky - 2/23/2000 12:50:45 AM
O.K., sorry for the repeat -- I know JJ heard it several months ago, but don't who else listened to it here. I would like to repost some of my piano playing. If you already downloaded this piano boogie, don't click. It's a big 1MB wavfile download.
Lucky's Boogie
1773. cmboyce - 2/23/2000 12:59:47 AM
Weird.
Before I was called away by childish matters, I had found another Hundertwasser: Here it is. (Incidentally, I tried to linked to the painting itself, but its suffix was .htm, and when I looked for a .gif, I got a selection of 8 or so, and had no idea what to do. But this way you'll see more.)
1774. alistairConnor - 2/23/2000 11:28:18 AM
cm :
Hundertwasser made a big impression on me too, he did some "NZ Conservation Week" posters in the early seventies, just at the time when ecological consciousness was emerging here in New Zealand (and in my head). He has lived here on and off for several decades.
Oddly enough, I haven't been able to find any local reports of his death.
1775. RosettaStone - 2/23/2000 4:25:27 PM
Was anyone as impressed as I was with the Dixie Chicks's singing last night at the Grammys?
Wonderful multi-media presentation with them singing "Goodbye Earl" and the video of their song behind them on the big screen.
Disconcerning listening to them accept their second Grammy with Martie Seidel talking about her "personal" problems last year. And, why does banjo sister Emily Robinson have brown hair? I thought all blondes were natural.
1776. Candide - 2/24/2000 1:49:20 AM
cmboyce
Congratulations on your post about Hundertwasser. Beautifully and intelligently expressed.
Pelle
I love that painting you linked. HAPPY.
1777. Candide - 2/24/2000 1:56:42 AM
cmboyce
I've just seen your painting link. Droll Aboriginal path. I used to be bothered by Hundertwasser's crouching inside the frame. You sound as though you may have painted a little yourself. I have, and I was at the stage where I wanted to break out of the frame as were many American painters who were his contemporaries. I always wanted to set Hundertwasser free. But seeing that painting I think he knew what he was doing. It's a touch Kleeish but more nutty.
1778. arkymalarky - 2/24/2000 3:52:15 AM
The other day we had a local man come tune our piano. He's getting up in years and has been blind all his life, I believe. He's from our neck of the woods and has a business in the nearby town. He doesn't generally tune pianos much any more, but he and his assistant (a very sweet older man, around 65 or so) drove out and spent all morning tuning and fixing our old upright, which my bro gave me after having bought it used from a woman who was moving. He put his card inside the piano rather than try to sign it, and it's there with other dates, cards, and signatures of piano tuners, the earliest being 1907. It sounds great, but I'm afraid it won't last too much longer, according to him.
While I'm on personal music stuff, Bro has a very nice collection of guitars, and he got a fixation on an anniversary edition Ovation cutaway that he's owned for awhile, so he gave it to my daughter. It's a beautiful guitar with a beautiful sound, and there seems to be nothing wrong with it. We talked to the guy Bro bought it from, who has a very nice music store in Hot Springs which Bro does regular business with, and he agreed. Bob bought a practice amp and has been playing the Ovation and a Fender that used to be Bro's and was sold around the local circuit until it finally got back to our house this past summer.
1779. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/24/2000 8:37:56 PM
Lucky- #1731 Superb sounds!!!
1780. janjon - 2/24/2000 8:46:45 PM
"Thanks, cm. I'm somewhat impaired arithmetically.
I also am suspect about your claim to be partially Irish. (Lotsa people do that around this time of the year.) One thing for certain, your green thumbs are suspect.
Carry on.
1781. Kitty~ - 2/25/2000 5:43:49 AM
Thanks for the link to the Hundertwasser page! What fun! I'm new here but I see some familiar faces. ::waving::
Hi Lucky, (great tunes!!) Hi Wiz! (great gifs!)
1782. Angel-Five - 2/25/2000 5:55:39 AM
Maybe some of us should get together and design a downloadable artistic interface for the Mote.
1783. Angel-Five - 2/25/2000 6:14:08 AM
Latest Acquisitions:
Juno Reactor -- Beyond the Infinite
Juno Reactor -- Transmissions
Moby -- Everything is Wrong
Moby -- Play
(the black spiritual electronic piece that's getting so much airplay --'ooh, lordy, troubles so hard, ooh lordy, troubles so hard, don't nobody know my troubles but God' -- is Moby, it's called Natural Blues)
Lou Bega -- Little Bit of Mambo(and my friend borrowed it right off the bat)
Vertical Horizon -- Everything You Want
Tonic -- Sugar
Philip Glass -- Koyyanisqatsi
The Jackal -- Soundtrack
(and it didn't have the Massive Attack song on it I wanted)
1784. PelleNilsson - 2/25/2000 9:29:21 AM
Welcome Kitty~
1785. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/25/2000 3:19:53 PM
1786. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/25/2000 3:20:29 PM
1787. TheWizardofWhimsy - 2/25/2000 3:21:06 PM
Opps!
1788. JudithAtHome - 2/25/2000 3:31:38 PM
Angel-5:
I have the Lou Bega and was "a little bit of" disappointed in it; most of the songs sound alike but it's still infectious and fun driving music...
1789. alistairConnor - 2/27/2000 4:38:26 AM
I managed to drop in to Hundertwasser's last architectural realisation yesterday - public toilets which he designed as a gift to his adopted home of Kawakawa, in the far north of New Zealand. 
Click on the photo to see a web page I made with the pictures I took.
1790. Angel-Five - 2/27/2000 4:45:15 AM
Is that flag a spiral?
1791. PelleNilsson - 2/27/2000 7:17:37 AM
Nice pictures alistair. It must be a fantastic building IRL.
1792. Candide - 2/27/2000 7:48:38 AM
Sort of Gaudi-amus in the sewer/ you re-phase some humus.
WELL!
It is lovely and the pictures are very good.
1793. EricCartman - 2/27/2000 7:56:14 AM
For those remaining few of you keeping score at home:
Unconfirmed Van Halen rumor #1 -- They're considering mounting a tour of extended-length shows, with no opening act, and they'll use Roth in the first half of the show, and Hagar in the second half. Anthrax is doing the same thing right now with some reported success, so this is not as farfetched as it may sound.
Unconfirmed Van Halen rumor #2 -- They're currently talking with wizened leather-lunged midget Ronnie James Dio to become the 4th lead singer for the band. I can't see this being even remotely true, as Dio is as notorious a control freak as Eddie VH. Still, it's fun to speculate.
[cue Hot For Teacher, with a splash of Rainbow in the Dark]
1794. CalGal - 2/27/2000 8:03:15 AM
Hey, I like that idea. I'd go see a VH concert with both their lead singers in attendance.
1795. Candide - 2/27/2000 8:10:00 AM
#1792
Oh the temptation to replace 'm' with 'n'.
1796. RickNelson - 2/27/2000 2:17:06 PM
Hundertwasser is a bit to organized to be promiscuous but that's the best word I can muster this morning to describe what I think of his multi layered, mosaic quality.
This exposure comes late for me, I've not heard of him that I recall, before alistair mentioned his building the toilets some time ago.
The links have been interesting and expose an element of art I truly had not felt exposed to until those links. Kind of sad really. To think this artist has been well known in many circles but, not to the general public such as I. Perhaps his art is too progressive for the general person to appreciate.
The mosaic of colors are very appealing but, what would the public do when confronted by the 60's version of porn. An erect penis in one of the paintings could elicit negative response from conservative quarters. Perhaps that's why I've been cocooned from Hundertwasser art?
Aside:
Gov. Ventura wants state and/or federal funding for the arts to end. He believes private money will be enough to keep the communities going. I wonder what the communities think of that? I'm appalled.
1797. JudithAtHome - 2/27/2000 3:04:35 PM
Rick:
This is not meant to be a joke but which picture had an erect penis in it? Do you meant the one called "The 30 Day Fax Picture"? I thought that was sort of a parade and the tall guy with the green hat was like a Macys Parade balloon float...is that the one you mean? Because if it is, the answer to your question about what people might think of 60s porn is: not much.
1798. JJBiener - 2/27/2000 9:21:39 PM
The Van Halen rumor I heard is that they are planning on doing a concert on HBO. If Cher can do it, why not VH?
1799. RickNelson - 2/28/2000 2:09:59 PM
Judith,
I found the paintings from Cmboyce's link in 1773 of this thread. I can't remember which of them it was, but the part with the erect penis showed up in the upper right portion of one of them. It was quite obvious. Also I would say other paintings in the link have obvious phallic symbols, especially the first one in the of that page(go back for it in the link). The phallus appears in the front lower, middle.
Very progressive for the 40's to 60's imho. Full of motion, color and a force against rigid symmetry, while attaining a sense of connectedness with the myriad shapes. Fascinating stuff.
1800. Seguine - 2/28/2000 6:46:17 PM
Check out this Odd Nerdrum site.
(Contains realistic paintings, some of which may be considered pornographic.)
1801. JJBiener - 2/28/2000 7:51:05 PM
Seguine - Odd? Certainly. Pornographic? Hardly. I would say he has an interesting vision and perhaps an exaggerated sense of self?
1802. SnowOwl - 2/28/2000 8:28:14 PM
There was some coverage of Hundertwasser's funeral on TV here last night. The man obviously had an enormous impact on the area. It was quite astonishing to see large numbers of men in tears, something that's not very usual in New Zealand.
His coffin was draped in the flag he designed as a replacement for the current NZ flag. The procession was headed by the train which runs down the main street of Kawakawa (where he lived), and it stopped for a moment outside the toilets he designed. It was quite theatrical and, I imagine, he would have appreciated it himself.
1803. Seguine - 2/28/2000 10:24:19 PM
Biener,
"Odd" is the man's given name. And I don't consider his painting pornographic either, but Jesse Helms and some prudes in the Mote might not agree. So I thought it would be courteous to give warning.
Nerdrum is justifiably arrogant concerning his technical expertise. I've never seen his work IRL, but print reproductions are pretty impressive.
1804. JJBiener - 2/29/2000 12:37:37 AM
Seguine - I know Odd is his name. I was being cute. Is Odd the name he was given at birth or did he change it for, uh, professional reasons.
As far as his exaggerated sense of self, I was referring to certain, uh, aspects of his self portrait rather than any arrogance over his technical skill.
1805. Seguine - 2/29/2000 1:16:54 AM
'As far as his exaggerated sense of self, I was referring to certain, uh, aspects of his self portrait..."
Yes, well, the species must propagate somehow. "Exaggerated sense of self" is one of the means by which selves are reproduced, if you catch my drift.
1806. ScottLoar - 2/29/2000 2:49:22 AM
Odd Nerdrum seems to have lingered a semester too long in Art Appreciation on Rembrandt.
1807. Seguine - 2/29/2000 3:04:00 AM
From Notices and Queries:
4. Seguine - 2/28/00 7:06:57 PM
For CANDIDE:
I mentioned it already in Suggestions when proposing this thread, but in case you missed it: there's a new or relatively new CD out called "John Dowland: In Darkness Let Me Dwell". The composer is apparently not well known--or used to be, then wasn't, now is. Anyway, "in Darkness..." is a collection of his songs performed by one John Potter (tenor), with accompaniment on lute, soprano sax, bass clarinet, baroque violin, and double-bass. It's incredibly lovely--not an exercise in original instruments fetishism--and this must owe something to the performers' intent to "engage" with the work, which is about 400 years old:
"The seeds of a new and largely improvised music which were sown in Dowland's own day came fully into flower a generation or so after his death. Musicians took his scores, stripped them to their essentials and re-negotiated the music with the long-deads composer. That's what we do here." (John Potter, from the liner notes.)
One caveat. The poetry is almost laughably melancholy--all of it--& includes such bathos as this last stanza from "Flow My Tears":
Hark you shadows that in darkness dwell,
Learn to contemn light.
Happy, happy they that in hell
Feel not the world's despite.
Naturally, one listens for the melody that somehow lends credence to all this gloom.
1808. Seguine - 2/29/2000 3:04:31 AM
13. Candide - 2/28/00 8:24:44 PM
Seguine
I performed "Flow my Tears" in my first solo recital. Do you know I particularly liked the part that you found a touch bathetic. It invited the singer to alter the tone and introduce a touch of baleful menace and defiance.
Reading my first program it is a hoot. The history of Western music would have been a good title. The program included Schoenberg's "Hanging Garden" cycle. I had a terrific pianist who made the most of it. My father whose taste in music was closer to country and western said "They were awful making you sing that ghastly music." I didn't dare tell him that I had chosen it.
Oh yes, there were some of Canteloube's songs from Auvergne, "Come Scoglio" from Mozart's "Cosi fan tutte" and a bracket of Charles Ives.
Well it was an OPPORTUNITY!
25. Candide - 2/28/00 10:41:25 PM
Seguine
I don't know whether it's still in print but this is the book that contains the Dowland song and many others.
An Elizabethan Song Book Lute songs, madrigals and rounds
edited by W.H.Auden, C.Kallman & N. Greenberg.
Faber and Faber Ltd.
24 Russell Square London
(you work out the date)
mcmlvii
1809. Seguine - 2/29/2000 3:17:26 AM
Candide, I was listening to the Dowland again tonight. It's just exquisite, you must get hold of it. (Do you know how to search Amazon, or shall I post a link?) Let me put it this way: three members of my immediate family have suffered birthdays in the past two months and my sister in law will be 38 or so this April. I plan to order four copies of "In Darkness Let Me Dwell" and send them off to the aged.
I'm struck by the first cut, which is "Weep You No More, Sad Fountains". I don't know anything about this tenor, John Potter, but he's exceptionally musical. Reminds me of another of my favorite voices of all time, Hans Hotter (although of course Hotter is sui generis), specifically in his interpretive sensitivity. He is able to blend his voice with the lower register of the soprano sax (I think that's what I'm hearing on track one, unless it's the bass clarinet) in such a way as to make the two indistinguishable, until he brings his sound up to maybe a mezzo forte and pulls out the line of the melody. Christ, it's beautiful.
1810. Seguine - 2/29/2000 3:24:28 AM
More from the liner notes:
"[Dowland's] songs with accompaniment not only speak to us as poignantly as song ever can, but also opened the way to the development of 19th-century lied and melodie, while his body of music for viols and lute cultivates qualities of texture and expressiveness that make it a major early landmark of chamber music. Again, it speaks to us as directly as any later chamber music, short-circuiting any sense of chronology."
This may seem like a remarkable assertion, but having heard the stuff I'd have to say it's quite true.
1811. RickNelson - 2/29/2000 2:56:31 PM
Visiting the link to Odd Nerdrum is an interesting experience.
Nerdrum... redrum... nerd of murder? odd nerd... perhaps.
I see an appearance of fresco like pastel. It's like he's taken the fresco age for a progressive ride. A ride only an odd would create. All the skin is too perfect, smooth and unreal. Like it's the skin one must pay attention to, and there's lots of skin. Look at the old man and the young maiden. She appears pale, cold, dead. He appears old, but suprisingly fit. Except he has an expression of an idiot.
The self portrait has me laughing out loud. What a play on aristocratic, fat, horny old men. I can appreciate the paintings, but I'm not understanding the context yet. What makes Odd tick?
1812. Seguine - 2/29/2000 3:12:48 PM
Loar: "Odd Nerdrum seems to have lingered a semester too long in Art Appreciation on Rembrandt."
If Rembrandt's is the primary influence on Nerdrum that springs to your mind when you look at his work, then perhaps the art appreciation class you took was poorly taught.
Look again. Specifically, at "Man Imitating a Cloud".
1813. ScottLoar - 2/29/2000 6:09:27 PM
No, Seguine, I invite you to compare the thumbnails provided of Odd with the thumbnails of Rembrandt's works, especially those done in his middle and late periods. Or perhaps you in your cultured wisdom can reveal who leaps to your mind as likening to Odd's works?
1814. ScottLoar - 2/29/2000 6:11:26 PM
And how arrogant of you to assume my familiarity, understanding and appreciation of art rests on a single art appreciation course perhaps poorly taught me.
1815. Seguine - 2/29/2000 11:00:30 PM
"Or perhaps you in your cultured wisdom..."
Fuck you.
"...can reveal who leaps to your mind as likening to Odd's works?"
Various kitsch. "Early Morning", I believe, is a re-do of a sentimental painting called something like "September Morn," that features a young woman standing in a lake in the same posture as one of the figures in the Nerdrum. See the figure in the water, upper right: it's a quote. The rest of the painting is as though a wider frame has been extrapolated from that quote, ultimately to produce a very different kind of picture. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the other figures/composition were also quotations or references, but from better paintings (possibly a Sloan, and/or something else I saw at the Chicago Art Institute once and can't recall the maker of).
In "Isola", the figure placement and stance is identical to some well known work I can't put my finger on. (It's not Rembrandt.)
Then there's "Sole Morte", which like "Man Imitating a Cloud" and much of the work executed prior to this decade and shown on the site owes a lot to illustration; other paintings look like Nerdrum was specifically "appropriating" Maxfield Parish in the service of some Nordic mythos; and "Life Saver" has a debt to Hieronymous Bosch. There's the vaguely social-realist "Return of the Sun", and earlier, "The Citadel", which might well have been influenced by Ruisdael or any number of Dutch landscape or maritime painters.
1816. Seguine - 2/29/2000 11:01:38 PM
Also, the figures he chooses for portraiture remind me of Breughel.
1817. Seguine - 2/29/2000 11:02:29 PM
"And how arrogant of you to assume my familiarity, understanding and appreciation of art rests on a single art appreciation course perhaps poorly taught me."
Forgive my impatience, Loar, but it was your remark about Nerdrum having "lingered... too long in Art Appreciation on Rembrandt" which was arrogant. Nerdrum is plainly the beneficiary of academic training, not "art appreciation" class. His intent seems to be to undermine the old masters by making use of their style as a seduction, just as he apparently means to elevate mythological story-pictures and kitsch to the status of 'high' art by means of a technical tour de force. (He grinds his own pigments, for god's sake.) The resemblance to Rembrandt in some of his recent work is merely a part of what I take to be the larger program (to subvert, to challenge the authority of..., blah, blah) which, in case you wonder, I consider utterly banal.
1818. Seguine - 2/29/2000 11:06:32 PM
This remark of Rick Nelson's is right on the money, IMO:
"The self portrait has me laughing out loud. What a play on aristocratic, fat, horny old men."
And I like that portrait, too (in spite of the self-referential irony of which we've had more than enough in the last decade or so). It's a riot.
1819. ScottLoar - 2/29/2000 11:13:43 PM
I confess I can never gain the end of Seguine's long posts, I can never get past the initial derision.
1820. janjon - 2/29/2000 11:31:37 PM
Oh that everyone else's posts were as interesting and varied as Seguine's.
Loar - you have a lot of very short fuses.
1821. ScottLoar - 2/29/2000 11:48:56 PM
Well, Janjon, stand back, review the body of Odd's work, and tell me who comes to mind. No, not in the specifics of each painting or subject, but in the general run of Odd's work.
And for that I get... grief. It's not worth continuing.
1822. ScottLoar - 2/29/2000 11:54:48 PM
Well, let me give you a list of candidates:
Sloan
Maxfield Parish
(not Rembrandt)
Hieronymous Bosch
Ruisdael
Breughel
or simply, immutably, one Odd Nerdrum.
1823. janjon - 2/29/2000 11:57:30 PM
My comment had nothing to do with the work, which I find to be banal if original. You frequently make barbed (and usually witty) and occasionally cutting comments around here, but also frequently give the appearance of wanting that to be a one way give with no reciprocal take. I thought you took undue umbrage at Seguine's rejoinder to your post about a semester too many of art appreciation.
Nothing big. I happen to find your approach to things around here more refreshing than not. You also have the "guts" to say it the way it is (vis-a-vis your recent comments about RustlerPike which I found to be right on spot), which is not the usual here. But, those who lob the occasional rocks would serve themselves well if they don't also encase themselves in undue brittleness.
1824. ScottLoar - 3/1/2000 12:33:47 AM
Comments well taken, Janjon, you or anyone else can fire at will and I'll damn the torpedoes.
What I immediately disliked was a passing comment (which I still hold true, that a technically talented man [as evidenced by my likening his delicacy of colour and shadow to Rembrandt] such as Odd seemingly subverted his talent into mediocrity) was occasioned to display Seguine's library of artists and at my expense. My intent was not to define each painting and divine the model or likeness - I'm not moved to do so by this guy Odd - but to make a general comment.
You seem impressed by Seguine's library of comment.
1825. Seguine - 3/1/2000 1:30:33 AM
What's your problem, Loar? Some sort of raging inferiority complex that everyone but you realizes is unwarranted?
And what's this bullshit about my "library"? You asked what, if not Rembrandt, I saw, and I told you, as best I could.
You evidently only looked at Nerdrum's most recent work--glanced at thumbnails on the internet!--before waxing imperious on where the man had lingered "too long". Sure, some of the stuff looks like Rembrandt. But most of it looks like a lot of other things. So you'll have to forgive me, again, for losing patience with a tendency I did not expect in you: to gloss over things designed to be considered somewhat more carefully.
1826. Seguine - 3/1/2000 1:35:03 AM
"a technically talented man [as evidenced by my likening his delicacy of colour and shadow to Rembrandt] such as Odd seemingly subverted his talent into mediocrity"
These remarks of yours must have failed to post, for I have found no such reference prior to Message # 1824.
1827. ScottLoar - 3/1/2000 2:17:57 AM
You, Seguine, think Odd Nerdrum's works "designed to be considered somewhat more carefully"; my first glance suggested not. I am not inspired to return.
1828. Seguine - 3/1/2000 3:58:46 AM
Message # 1827
No skin off my nose.
1829. EricCartman - 3/1/2000 10:51:03 AM
Interesting stuff, this Nerdrum fellow (and his little friend). It's no "Dogs Playing Poker", but then who can possibly hope to re-capture such sublime majesty? The subtlety of each dog's expression, it makes you think, "What sort of hand does the collie have? Is he bluffing? And the pit bull -- is he gambling away the last bit of his poor litter's kibble?"
Yes, "Dogs Playing Poker" -- an unsung masterpiece. A deft commentary on modern society's gambling problem. Look for upcoming William Wegman photographic revisions, such as "Weimaraners Playing Slots at the Local Indian Casino", or "Weimaraners Spending Their Welfare Check on Lottery Tickets".
OK, I think I've beaten a mediocre riff thoroughly enough. But I'm telling you, some folks out there would pay five figures for such a piece. All I need is a Weimaraner, a slot machine, and a camera.
1830. janjon - 3/1/2000 4:44:39 PM
Cartman. Have you seen the current New Yorker?
1831. JJBiener - 3/1/2000 4:53:37 PM
Cartman - I am surprised at you. Certainly you aren't saying that Dogs Playing Poker is better than Elvis on black velvet, are you?
1832. janjon - 3/1/2000 4:54:35 PM
hmmm. Wonder if I have open toys.
1833. janjon - 3/1/2000 4:55:10 PM
sorry about that.
1834. Uzmakk - 3/1/2000 5:52:27 PM
Seriously, I want an answer to this. Did anyone hear the NPR piece this morning about a specific band and its dynamics. The piece was near the end of the broadcast. The band leader was interviewed and the word "dog"was in the title of the lastest album. Anyone familiar with this band? I know I should try NPRs website, but why should I expand my horizons when I have the Mote?
1835. Candide - 3/1/2000 8:17:03 PM
Seguine
I'm sorry I haven'y Moted for a couple of days and so I've just read your post. I would like to hear the Dowland CD since it obviously impressed you. I confess to a certain stuffiness about Dowland, in that I do prefer the simplicity of a lute accompaniment anlthough I'm always game for any new experience.
I should have mentioned in mt description of the great OPPORTUNITY recital program that there were also Manuel de Falla's Seven Popular Spanish Folk Songs. I also seem to remember Beethoven's "In Questa Tomba Oscura".
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/03/bottum3.htm
This is the URL for a very lively piece about music in "The Atlantic".
Highly recommended. Although I could argue with aspects of it.
1836. Seguine - 3/1/2000 8:28:10 PM
Candide, from that Atlantic article:
"People began to imagine that morality was a set of feelings rather than a system of ideas at around the time they began to be able to evoke any mood they wanted by putting a 78 on a phonograph."
HAHAHAHA!
1837. Candide - 3/1/2000 9:19:35 PM
Seguine
I have been deeply corrupted by having performed music that requires dedication and aspiration towards the unattainable. In Italy they call it deformazione professionale.
And when I direct some attitude learned by entering the mind and (if you believe in it) soul of Beethoven onto the International threaders, I get accused of hand wringing.
And when I was a child and beyond my hero was Yehudi Menuhin.
1838. Candide - 3/1/2000 9:23:46 PM
But I share the joke. Sadly.
.
1839. Absensia - 3/1/2000 11:26:40 PM
I just noticed the Explorer e-mail program which uses the musical theme of the "Confutatis Maledictis" from Mozart's Requiem. "Where do you want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen, while the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis."
This translates, I think, to: "The damned and accursed are convicted to the flames of Hell."
Microsoft...gotta love it.
1840. Seguine - 3/2/2000 12:38:30 AM
Oh, man, that's a howler. Must at some level have been intentional.
1841. Candide - 3/2/2000 1:06:12 AM
When enraged by Moting I recommend a section of a religious work written by an atheist: Verdi's Requiem and go straight to the Dies Irae.
Too good for Microsoft. Just let them try!
1842. Candide - 3/2/2000 1:07:33 AM
Absensia
Do you think they meant Macintosh?
1843. arkymalarky - 3/2/2000 2:01:59 AM
Uzmakk,
I couldn't find it without the title of the program. I looked because I thought it might have been Dave Grisman's "Dawg" music, but apparently it wasn't.
1844. Absensia - 3/2/2000 2:33:18 AM
Candide,
Not sure...hard to believe someone at MS wasn't aware of what was happening. At least I hope so.
1845. Candide - 3/2/2000 7:20:37 AM
Absensia
I suspect that nobody at Microsoft has voluntarily heard anything without a rock beat in it. 'The rest' is probably something fuzzy called ambience.
1846. cmboyce - 3/2/2000 8:06:12 AM
Great stuff, here, Moties.
Sequine, I just ordered that Dowland disc (it's right here); though I'm sure I could go find it somewhere tomorrow and save the postage AND get it sooner, I'm too EXCITED!! (and I probably won't have time tomorrow and it's only one day... and I'm too excited!).
Also, I've seen several Odd Nerdrum shows, and he is as spectacular technically as the reproductions make him seem. I thought (pace Loar) that your appraisal of his manifold derivativeness was very perceptive. I've never quite given him that much thought, but that's very true. I think, as is often the case among contemporary painters, in an art world where "concept" is made so important, that he's a very good painter with a weak mind. Like, say, David Salle, Pat Schier, and too many others to mention. Or even contemplate.
That said, I think it is also appropriate to view him from another angle. Like many not particularly interesting contemporaries, he is basically an academic painter (his academy's being so ... variegated, is simply part of his "conceptualist" pose; it mixes periods in the hope of evoking the surreal; in its overstated historicism (grind-your-own-pigments no less), it reflects the retardataire quality of academic post-modernism—the acceleration of history having provided that post-modernism should already be academic), and there's nothing wrong with being an academic painter.
[more]
1847. cmboyce - 3/2/2000 8:09:05 AM
Consider how many of the painters we enjoy in museums were just that in their day, eg, just off the top of my head, Gerard Dou; Quentin Massys maybe (I'm not too sure how he relates to his elders); any of the sundry Caravagisti; Boucher, Childe Hassam, etc etc etc.
But their particular, individual excellences often become prominent features only after the entire development of a style, from sparkplugs, through high exponents, to and through its academics, is done. Dou was doubtless just one of Rembrandt's pupils in the eyes of his younger contemporaries, who probably regarded him with boredom if not derision (and who were themselves just about to disappear into the slough of 18th-century Dutch painting); not until much later, when the whole of 17th century Dutch painting was re-examined, and Dou separated out from his master, could he be properly appreciated.
Maybe Nerdrum will one day be regarded as some sort of pretty handsome minor master of a weak period, a Nattier, a Gros, a Dufy. And fair enough; it's some other sensibility (my daughter's-to-be perhaps, or hers) that will make the call.
1848. Candide - 3/2/2000 8:14:59 AM
cmboyce
I only saw the one (fairly amazing" Odd Nerdrum slide that Seguine showed. I should have followed up. Many painters now have turned to a sort of 'academic' painterliness without any impressive compositional content. Is he one of those? Seguine may have a reply to this. In the end, for me, composition (or whatever you want to call it) is all. Bad painting can ruin it but it's the marriage of both that grabs the heart, whatever the style or period.
1849. cmboyce - 3/2/2000 8:26:15 AM
I'm not sure what you mean, Candide. Nerdrum, whatever else he's doing, is not just painting still-lifes and portraits and landscapes. His composition, in the sense of the disposition of pictorial elements is fine enough, I guess. It's his showy "content" that makes him seem a weak head—or rather, which manifest it; but since he is an academic, late-modern pastiche-chef, this won't matter very much in a hundred years. The whole bloody art world from Seurat and Cezanne to Nerdrum's nephew (if...) is liable to look pretty weird, to say no more. Just as we see the 18th, which certainly has its stars (Watteau, Chardin, David, let's say) but which is really rawther silly. (I envision the big guy in Monty Python saying it.)
I think that with respect to painting (at least), the 20th century is rather more like the 18th than any other. That the 18th finished with such a bang (19th century realism) has to do with extra-painterly considerations; so will the bang I expect will come sometime in the, oh say first third of the 21st.
1850. cmboyce - 3/2/2000 8:28:14 AM
I've got to get out of here and sleep. I hope there'll be much more in this strain to read tomorrow.
1851. Candide - 3/2/2000 9:38:37 AM
cmboyce
I think that the abstract expressionists, say Robert Motherwell, Willem de Kooning, Franz Kline, Diebenkorn etc. will remain giants. I think that some of the stuff that followed, like Pop art will be merely interesting. By composition I don't mean anything as boring as balance. I mean vitality, juxtaposition of mass, colour, tone etc. The actual painting and not what seems to be the painting, if you follow my drift.
Here in Sydney I mourn for the experience of regular fixes of great historical art. I don't have much affinity for much present day Australian painting. I never found that I felt cut off from any painting by time and changed style. I used to visit galleries and museums regularly and although it's now a long time ago, the withdrawal symptoms are still intense. The New South Wales Gallery contains some interesting stuff as does the National Gallery in Canberra, but when I remember the National Gallery in London, not to mention the galleries of Europe, I turn to bird watching.
1852. Candide - 3/2/2000 11:57:41 AM
Seguine
I've looked at the painting 'slides'. Forgive me, but Odd doesn't do a lot for me. Competent is the word that occurs.
There is one Australian painter who died recently whom I think you might like but I lack the skill to reproduce him. He was an architect as well and gradually lost his sight. Lloyd Rees was his name. As he lost his sight he gradually became more and more dependent on light and colour. His late paintings are luminous. he used to teach drawing at the school of architecture and drawing was his first skill. It was wonderful to see him change that into bulk, brilliance and chiaroscuro.
1853. Uzmakk - 3/2/2000 12:58:25 PM
Thanks, Arky. I think I will call my local NPR station today and see what they can do for me. I loved the way the band leader would be right in the middle of talking about his music, his technique and all of that, then break into a broad smile and that was simply the end of it.
1854. Seguine - 3/2/2000 7:39:54 PM
"he's a very good painter with a weak mind."
Boyce, that's my impression exactly, and I'm glad to have it confirmed by someone who has seen the work. One can't, of course, learn very much about a painting from an internet reproduction.
"Like, say, David Salle, Pat Schier, and too many others to mention. Or even contemplate."
I don't know Pat Schier, but David Salle is not only a weak mind but a lousy painter. Early on, I thought some of his subject matter was sort of provocative (the suburban anxiety thing) but he never took that anywhere complex. And technically... well, blecch. Looks like a lot of indisciplined scumbling to me.
The rest of your posts are absolutely right in my book. In fact, my chief interest in Nerdrum has been that he bothers to achieve technical mastery in a time that doesn't require it. Especially wrt the figure.
There's another guy who has done this--Vince Desiderio--but he's not really as good. OTOH, his non-technical aims may be more interesting (I haven't checked to see what he's been up to in recent years).
1855. Seguine - 3/2/2000 7:42:24 PM
You know who was an incredible figure draughtsman in his time? Henry Ossawa Tanner. Less evident in his paintings than drawings, but the guy was impressive.
1856. Seguine - 3/2/2000 7:58:27 PM
Candide: "I think that the abstract expressionists, say Robert Motherwell, Willem de Kooning, Franz Kline, Diebenkorn etc. will remain giants."
Maybe strike Kline; maybe even strike Motherwell. Certainly Diebenkorn and de Kooning. Actually, I think Diebenkorn was probably the only one of them who kept making interesting pictures throughout his career.
Lately I've come to believe the world is as unhealthily obsessed with giants as it is with shallow irony. I tend to like works on an individual basis--certainly more of one artist than another, but still.
If one thinks of him as a contemporary abstract expressionist, Sigmar Polke is quite good.
But lately I find myself drawn to 19th- and early 20th-century American realists.
1857. Seguine - 3/2/2000 8:20:06 PM
"Like many not particularly interesting contemporaries, he is basically an academic painter (his academy's being so ... variegated, is simply part of his "conceptualist" pose; it mixes periods in the hope of evoking the surreal; in its overstated historicism (grind-your-own-pigments no less), it reflects the retardataire quality of academic post-modernism—the acceleration of history having provided that post-modernism should already be academic), and there's nothing wrong with being an academic painter."
Yes, assuming the academy can be made to speak meaningfully to people. Post-modernism as a movement (anti-movement) doesn't, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not sure Nerdrum appeals to anything significant either. (I'd rather see the work in person before drawing any hard and fast conclusion, though.) I think what initially drew me to it was what appeared to be an exactingly executed ambiguity of purpose that promised some kind of depth of content; looking at a collection of the images eliminates much of that ambiguity. One finds instead the standard late-20th century program.
1858. Seguine - 3/2/2000 8:23:16 PM
Boyce, do you have an opinion of Lucien Freud?
1859. Candide - 3/3/2000 12:41:37 AM
Seguine
I trust only that gut response of recognition, which is why post-modernism always seemed to me to be the irrelevant babbling of ambitious nonentities. For me only that response is of interest or value. If you are finding it in the pictures of which you speak, that's where you should be.
1860. Seguine - 3/3/2000 1:25:28 AM
"If you are finding it in the pictures of which you speak, that's where you should be."
Well... no kidding.
1861. Seguine - 3/3/2000 1:33:28 AM
There's a painter, who I believe died not too long ago, by the name of Joan Mitchell. I think she worked mostly in France but was an American, sort of an abstract expressionist landscape painter, influenced, I suspect, by Van Gogh. (And no, in her case that's not the equivalent, wrt individualism of approach, of being "influenced" by Max Beckman.) I like very much the few pictures of hers I've seen in magazines. Has anyone here seen her work outside of reproduction?
1862. Candide - 3/3/2000 1:38:09 AM
Seguine
I don't know what it's like in the USA but it takes real guts to have that point of view here. Or it did until recently. Everything was equal and there were no big experiences allowed.
I've come to eschew the art scene although I have friends doing 'marvelously' in the talk and administration dept.
1863. Seguine - 3/3/2000 2:27:26 AM
"I don't know what it's like in the USA but it takes real guts to have that point of view here. Or it did until recently. Everything was equal and there were no big experiences allowed."
Well, that's the story here, too (I think we appropriated it from France by way of Germany) but I wouldn't say it takes courage not to give a shit. We have Hilton Kramer, who has a dildo up his ass but is often right. The Whitney now comes in for regular derision in the New Yorker or The New Republic. Peter Schjeldal(sp?) no longer has a free pass to ultra-hipness.
One won't get a job in academia--one must either be a white boy painting figures & representing the Oldest Guard, or an Hispanic Lesbian exhibiting upturned sofas & representing the New Order--but there's as yet no law against making pictures, or even writing about them for contrarian publications.
One can't always expect to be let in; it doesn't matter.
1864. Seguine - 3/3/2000 2:28:57 AM
"I've come to eschew the art scene although I have friends doing 'marvelously' in the talk and administration dept."
Me too, on both counts. (Well, less and less on the second...)
1865. Candide - 3/3/2000 2:29:48 AM
Seguine
Me too.
1866. Candide - 3/3/2000 2:35:49 AM
Seguine
I did have fun recently when a small letter (by me) to the paper started a huge art war while I sat back and smirked. A bit like the Mote really. There was a deeply concerned post-post modern adminsitrator who made seriousness look frivolous and an intelligent art critic (not my favourite breed as a rule) who been appointed to the National gallery in the Australian pictures section. Politics at its nastiest. Unfortunately the Irish (not Australian and therefore hated) administrator(who picked the critic) then spent a fortune on a really cheap and nasty David Hockney, thus letting everybody down.
I liked it when I was young and idealistic and art was "spiritual". Ha.
1867. Seguine - 3/3/2000 3:06:16 AM
"I liked it when I was young and idealistic and art was "spiritual". Ha."
I'm sure you'll agree it's best not to confuse art with politics. Personally, I have never believed art was "spiritual", but for a while when I was in school I was under the mistaken impression that art is capable of being "intellectual". (It was a conceit being peddled at the time by a couple of visiting Yalies, Mel Bochner and William Bailey, and their local admirers.)
1868. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2000 3:14:02 AM
To anyone who may have seen Edward Albees Seascape : please let me know if it is worth an evening out of my life.
1869. Candide - 3/3/2000 8:02:44 AM
Seguine
Me. I just stand there and see what it does. Always have really. Never found a better method.
Talk is USELESS.
1870. Seguine - 3/3/2000 4:47:03 PM
"Talk is USELESS."
For the most part, yes. And that is why I rarely visit this thread.
1871. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2000 4:51:10 PM
Evidently, neither do fans of Edward Albee....
1872. Candide - 3/3/2000 9:43:10 PM
Sorry Judith. I can't help you. I did love "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf".
I'd risk it if I could afford it.
1873. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2000 10:41:43 PM
Candide:
We are going...have season tickets. I just wondered what was in store...I've heard one good and one bad review.
1874. Candide - 3/3/2000 10:54:59 PM
Judith
After that you should review the reviewers. I have a huge problem seeing or reading anything I've heard too much about. I often put off reading something for years until the din of the chatter has left me.
I hate the way authors appear on every radio and TV program spewing out irrelevancies that drain their own book of life.
I was doing some research in the New South Wales State Library when Jung Chang (whose Wild Swans I was then halfway through, was giving a talk in the very next room. I didn't go. I passed her in the corridor and she was exquisits. I never really regretted not going. I was meeting her in the book.
1875. Candide - 3/3/2000 10:55:12 PM
Judith
After that you should review the reviewers. I have a huge problem seeing or reading anything I've heard too much about. I often put off reading something for years until the din of the chatter has left me.
I hate the way authors appear on every radio and TV program spewing out irrelevancies that drain their own book of life.
I was doing some research in the New South Wales State Library when Jung Chang (whose Wild Swans I was then halfway through, was giving a talk in the very next room. I didn't go. I passed her in the corridor and she was exquisite. I never really regretted not going. I was meeting her in the book.
1876. Candide - 3/3/2000 10:56:27 PM
ooh deah demit
1877. Candide - 3/3/2000 10:57:30 PM
Judith
After that you should review the reviewers. I have a huge problem seeing or reading anything I've heard too much about. I often put off reading something for years until the din of the chatter has left me.
I hate the way authors appear on every radio and TV program spewing out irrelevancies that drain their own book of life.
I was doing some research in the New South Wales State Library when Jung Chang (whose Wild Swans I was then halfway through, was giving a talk in the very next room. I didn't go. I passed her in the corridor and she was exquisite. I never really regretted not going. I was meeting her in the book.
1878. Candide - 3/3/2000 10:58:39 PM
Judith
After that you should review the reviewers. I have a huge problem seeing or reading anything I've heard too much about. I often put off reading something for years until the din of the chatter has left me.
I hate the way authors appear on every radio and TV program spewing out irrelevancies that drain their own book of life.
I was doing some research in the New South Wales State Library when Jung Chang (whose Wild Swans I was then halfway through, was giving a talk in the very next room. I didn't go. I passed her in the corridor and she was exquisits. I never really regretted not going. I was meeting her in the book.
1879. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2000 11:03:21 PM
Candide:
I've noticed that more hype attending the release of a movie usually bodes ill for it. Like the new Madonna movie; she and Rupert Evert were out beating the talk show bushes like crazy recently and I hear the movie's a dud. Well, in this case, DUH? But there have been others.
It holds fairly true for books, too. If anything appeals to so many, isn't it spreading itself a little thin?
1880. Candide - 3/3/2000 11:28:57 PM
I'll oil the machine or wait for a mechanic.
1881. Candide - 3/3/2000 11:30:33 PM
Judith
Well said.
I'm having problems with gremlins at the moment. Back later.
1882. cmboyce - 3/4/2000 7:47:23 AM
Seguine, a very nice set of posts. I have a lot to respond to:
I agree that Desiderio is technically very good, but I find him stupifyingly boring (thouigh I too haven't seen any in a while). Cesar Bravo is another "neo-realist" whose virtuoso style resembles Desiderio's and whom I thought very promising as a strong new presence at one time, but he has grown into an increasingly blatant and annoying "classical surrealism" (for which read "trite pastiches of Magritte et al). There is another painter who is similar technically but much more interesting, with a deceptively "ordinary" take on ordinary life, in mostly interiors with figures, incl. many self-portraits, that, by virtue of odd compositions and points of view, etc, presents an intriguing quality of quiet desperation combined with disturbing (and difficult to define) beauty—the sort of beauty that infuses nostalgia, though in content or imagery nostalgia is simply not at issue.
This is very badly put, chiefly because I haven't seen any of his work in a long time, and in fact I can't remember his name! Aargh. I keep thinking "James Gilligan". Ring any bells?
1883. cmboyce - 3/4/2000 8:09:29 AM
1882 was intended to cite Message # 1854
Well, on posting that, I see I began responding after reading 1861 or so, so there may well have been other remarks and responses I'm not myself responsive, too, but having written a bunch of stuff here, I'll post it before I catch up.
Message # 1855. Henry Ossawa Tanner! Yes!! It's good to see his name. The true and worthiest successor to Eakins, I say with pleasure, but actually I've only seen a few pieces. They're great though. And I remember a magazine article about him a few years back—about his re-discovery and all—that was extremely impressive. Do you know the whereabouts of any?
Message # 1856
I certainly agree on deleting Kline from any list of AE giants! A fucking clown painter all along. I think that early Motherwell is sufficient to establish him as a great AEer (sometimes I think that's possibly an oxymoron, but I don't really want to lean on the idea). And while he got in a terrible rut, later, I still find myself agog from time to time, fairly often, in front of a late Motherwell. I think one just has to ignore the likelihood that such a work is surrounded (chronologically) by mediocre work. Ech, what isn't? (There's a terrific one in the Baltimore Museum of Art, which I mention because I know there are a number of Moties in the DC-Baltimore area. Are you one?) (And I do not mean to say that being in the BMA the Motherwell is surrounded by mediocrity. It's a splendid place.)
Your preferred "late 19th-century and early 20th-century realism" certainly encompasses a number of great artists. My own favorites would include Chase, Eakins, Bellows, Twachtman...
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1884. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:36:12 AM
cmboyce
I have seen some great 'calligraphic' Klines. I haven't seen any for years. Why do you call him a clown?
1885. cmboyce - 3/4/2000 8:36:57 AM
My own favorites would include Chase, Eakins, Bellows, Twachtman... But my own favorite period in American painting follows them—the pre-AE abstractionists of the 20s and 30s, who were "abstracting" from reality, not creating their own (the later emphasis on the latter is part of American art's "heroic" or gigantistic quality (my term; cute, huh?), both infuriating and inspiring, derisive and delightful; a characteristic that will make 20th-century American art a subject of bemused interest for a millenium or so, like, say, Byzantine.) To resume: Dove, Davis, and O'Keeffe are the giants on that particular earth.
Message # 1857
I generally accede to your strictures on the academic, with an important qualification. The academic does indeed "speak meaningfully to people" but it only does so (and only because it does so) after the meaning has been created. That's what makes the academic academic. But this art, while breaking no ground at all, and while not increasing our capacities to apprehend the world, etc, etc, can nevertheless be quite good at what it does do, which is reconfirm stuff we already grasp. Granted, it doesn't deserve the respect the great stuff of a period does, but it looks good on the wall (and accordingly has a market and can thereby attract new practitioners and appreciators; consider the amount of ersatz impressionism that is being painted, as we speak).
Some periods have so little and/or such obvious meaning (while perhaps having nevertheless many splendid paintings) that their academic half-lives, as it were, are brief.
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1886. cmboyce - 3/4/2000 8:42:32 AM
Or they may be taken over by events. I think of Greuzean "sentimental realism", declared by Diderot to be the most important art of its day, only to disappear from the world's consideration not long thereafter, never (yet) to reappear. Academic AE is already very faded and will soon, I believe, be generally seen to have no more virtue than present-day Impressionism. The post-modern academism I postulate will, I surmise, soon be overtaken by events. Sometimes I feel hopeful.
That said, however, I like a good deal of post-AE painting. Surely you don't dismiss Johns?
Message # 1858 Yes, I like Lucien Freud, but I'm not crazy about him. I certainly would not have paid the million the Met did for that Freud they bought out of their own show, nor for any other Lucien Freud, even had I the wealth to spare it. I think he has a lively and thoughtful intelligence and is technically quite sound, but there's something I just don't like about him. I don't think he's a good colorist, and too many pieces have a sort of scraped appearance, I think from the mismatched high-value pale yellows and ochres that dominate, and perhaps simple overworking.
Message # 1861 I like Joan Mitchell's work, and I've seen a lot of it. I think the late work sinks badly, into a lot of fairly vapid pastelly pieces with soft, sloppy forms. But considering the best work (maybe from the 60s, 70s), I think she's one of the very best 2d generation AEers (aside from Diebenkorn, who is simply sui generis, perhaps the best painter of the second half of the century). She does, however, have something of a 1-note repertoire, which is a weakness.
[just a little more]
1887. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:42:48 AM
I certainly place Motherwell well, well ahead of Kline.
1888. cmboyce - 3/4/2000 8:44:02 AM
Yes, Mitchell just died, was American and painted in France (from about 1960, I think; but I think she returned, to Connecticut, at the end). And by her own account she was influenced by Van Gogh, but I don't think it shows especially.
Well, that's enough typing for a while. I'll hope to be back tomorrow (though at least a fair deal of the day is going to go to a trip to the Modern with my 8-year-old daughter—for which, come to think of it, writing this stuff has been a species of pleasant preparation).
1889. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:44:06 AM
Don't like Lucien Freud so that makes us even, if you catch my drift.
I haven't seen most of the painters you mention.
1890. cmboyce - 3/4/2000 8:52:32 AM
Message # 1884
Candide, I did not mean to convey that Kline himself was a clown, or his work especially clownish, but he was a painter of appalling sentimental clowns before turning to AE. Really. Emmett Kelly contemplating the tragic, 'mid softly moaning clouds. So, finding as I do, that the calligraphic work for which he's best known is too easy, almost simpleminded, and quite uninteresting as to emotional or psychological content, which is what AE's about, chiefly, I find it easy to advert (perhaps unfairly; everyone has a fair-to-middling foolish adolescence) to the earlier, truly trashy stuff.
1891. Candide - 3/4/2000 9:00:18 AM
I guess I only saw some picked out stuff. Certainly Motherwell impressed much more deeply. De Kooning and Diebenkorn? (I'm cooking and writing on the run.)
My own development (out of academic painting) was gladdened by that lot. I don't care about the politics and I do think that analysing the 'psychololical' content can leave you with a dead baby in your hands. For me, it's the painterly energy and delicacy and strength that interests in these painters. As in music, if you will.
I hated all the bullshit that accompanied them, but then I hate the art industry with all its brothel-like qualities. I laughed when all the big corporatiopns bought their work.
Back to the kitchen.
1892. Candide - 3/4/2000 9:00:33 AM
corporations
1893. RickNelson - 3/4/2000 2:24:43 PM
Have a great day at the met with fam. cmboyce. Sounds like a great idea.
I'll have to see if I can muster support for the Mpls., Tute. I've an aquaintance in the local section that I'm inclined to see.
The permanent collections are always exciting. Seeing a new part of them each time one goes. I like to finish up in the expressionist area. They've put Dali's lobster phone up there. That guy's art is so cute.
They've some Davinci copy-cats of sculpture. Good bodies and smooth skin. Ha!
Van Gogh's "Olive Trees" always gives me pleasure. The vivid yellow in the sky, swirling around. I've got three-D glasses at the moment. I've wondered what would happen looking at a Van Gogh with 3-D glasses on? He must have had extraordinary visuals. His style is like an hallucination. Fascinating stuff.
The recently added permanent Chinese exhibits are still giving me hours of visuals. It's a marvel to view the intricate detail. The style. All hundreds and thousands of years old.
Motifs of an era and an era are put together, adding to cultural understanding. Truely admirable displays.
Crowned by the Chinese art of stone garden sculpture. Precariously balanced boulders, ten and fifteen feet high, small bases and large pinacles. Pitted and curved, jutting and concave, beautifully set in all their majesty.
Ahhh yes, this is a good idea.
1894. Seguine - 3/4/2000 8:17:14 PM
"I'd say "suburban anxiety" sounds more like Erik Fischl, another decent painter without
much interesting to say—which is as much as I really intended to say of the more
"urban" (I think) and "genre-ish" Salle (the genre pornography)."
Of course! My blunder, you're absolutely right, I was thinking of Fischl. (In fact, I had glued Salle and Fiechl together mentally, with Fischl somehow representing Salle's 'early' period!) But I stand by the assessment of Fischl as a mediocre painter. Salle, I think, has some decorative value, sort of like Andres Serrano (or even Julian Schnabel on a good day); but what he does has never struck me as particularly fine or even notable. Slightly Warhol redux. And the subject matter--well, ho-hum. Salle's 'pornography' is almost too tasteful to matter.
"I agree that Desiderio is technically very good, but I find him stupifyingly boring (thouigh I too haven't seen any in a while)."
I hung a show of his once, in a gallery in Philadelphia. The week before the opening, his wife had given birth to their anencephalic child. I was sort of amazed the guy could keep his shit together under the circumstances. I only saw one or two of his paintings after that, but they had changed a little bit for the better. That is, there seemed to be more going on in them. But not vastly more.
"Cesar Bravo is another "neo-realist"..."
The name is familiar, so I guess I should know the work, but I don't.
"Aargh. I keep thinking "James Gilligan". Ring any bells?"
Only inappropriate ones, like Matt Mullican.
1895. Seguine - 3/4/2000 8:21:39 PM
"Do you know the whereabouts of any [Tanners]?"
There was a big travelling (I think) show in San Francisco 8 or 9 yrs ago at the Palace of the Legion of Honor. I seem to think a few pieces were purchased for its collection. I have a catalog; will dig it up and see if I can find out anything for you.
Re American realists: Also George Lukcs.
1896. Seguine - 3/4/2000 8:25:38 PM
Re superiority of early Motherwell, yes, entirely in agreement.
I live near NY, not DC-Baltimore, but we're on a train line that connects w/the NE corridor. Appreciate the recommendation.
1897. Seguine - 3/4/2000 8:38:12 PM
"Academic AE is already very faded and will soon, I believe, be generally seen to have no more virtue than present-day Impressionism."
I think it has less already! At least the general public still loves Impressionism (and will indefinitely, I believe). AE was never comprehensible to them and, being the astounding product of a dubious philosophy of value, is now dismissed by artists as well. Or so it seems.
"Surely you don't dismiss Johns?"
I very nearly dismiss Johns. (Not Rauschenberg.) But Johns, as opposed to Duchamp, has long struck me as the real forerunner of false portentousness that ultimately became PoMo.
"I think [Freud] has a lively and thoughtful intelligence and is technically quite sound, but there's something I just don't like about him. I don't think he's a good colorist..."
Well, that's my impression exactly. He's been hyped in recent years by such luminaries as Robert Hughes, but I must say I'm not as excited as the venerable Australian.
1898. Seguine - 3/4/2000 8:48:29 PM
"I like Joan Mitchell's work, and I've seen a lot of it. I think the late work sinks badly, into a lot of fairly vapid pastelly pieces with soft, sloppy forms."
The bane of a long career...
"But considering the best work (maybe from the 60s, 70s), I think she's one of the very best 2d generation AEers (aside from Diebenkorn, who is simply sui generis, perhaps the best painter of the second half of the century)."
That's an encouraging endorsement of Mitchell. And re Diebenkorn, damn straight. I've thought sometimes that his enduring strength may have been owed partly to the initial abstracting from reality; that, as with DeKooning, the uncertainties generated by abstraction's running up against representation tend to make fertile ground.
"...by her own account [Mitchell] was influenced by Van Gogh, but I don't think it shows especially."
Well it must, otherwise I sure wouldn't have known about it! Any idea where I might see her work?
1899. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/4/2000 9:38:00 PM
FWIW, I've found the repartee above most satisfying.
Wonderful line!!!
...post-modernism always seemed to me to be the irrelevant babbling of ambitious nonentities.
Indeed! He was "The Man!"
...(aside from Diebenkorn, who is simply sui generis, perhaps the best painter of the second half of the century).
1900. JudithAtHome - 3/5/2000 12:39:41 AM
Now that wanker is full of talent!:-)
1901. Seguine - 3/5/2000 12:48:25 AM
"The best contemporary realist at Marlborough is not Desiderio, IMHO, but Antonio Lopez-Garcia, a Spanish painter and sculptor. His catalogs sell out the day they arrive."
Thanks for that tip. For the record, I've never found Desiderio compelling, but I do think it's interesting that he has made a living at all in the current climate. Mainly, I'm surprised he wound up at Marlborough.
(BTW, the other [cough] tip you provided was featured prominently on the Nerdrum website I linked a while back.)
You know who has always been mistaken for a realist, but isn't really? Here are two hints: he also shows (or used to anyway) at Marlborough; and he was at one time known as the "Dean of American Realism".
1902. joezan - 3/5/2000 1:40:56 AM
Wiz - #1899:
So that's what people with too much money and time on their hands buy - a portrait of a guy with Bill Clinton's Peyroni's-inflicted schwantz on his belly and a loogie dripping from his bald pate?
Great stuff you're showing on that Benton page, btw...
1903. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/5/2000 3:55:32 AM
::laughing @ joezan's florid recounting::
"Dean of American Realism" sounds very familiar, but I can't think of who that might be.
This is an old drawing by Lopez-Garcia. His best efforts are paintings of Madrid -- views from various rooftops which are hauntingly stark and "tenebroso." Not much on the web, sadly.
1904. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/5/2000 4:09:00 AM
"I don't know Pat Schier, but David Salle is not only a weak mind but a lousy painter."
David Salle is an ersatz-Polke opportunist and I think that might be Pat Steir...
1905. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 6:45:49 AM
Message # 1893 Rick: I haven't been to the Minneapolis Institute in years, but I remember it as a wonderful place, and I'm sure it still is. In the last few months, I've read two terrific articles about their new Chinese wing, and it's said to be the best in the west for furniture and mighty damn fine otherwise, too. I now have relatives in Madison WI, and the next time we visit I'm going to try to get a day or two off (as it were) to drive up to the Twin Cities, and check it all out again. (I also want to do the Walker, too, of course.)
Message # 1895 Sequine: Yeah, I remember that Tanner show; I managed to miss it on both coasts. Pissed me off. I think the magazine article I referred to was about that show. I know I've seen a very attractive 3/4 length self-portrait since then; perhaps in SF (though I have a feeling it might be in Baltimore).
And yes, Luks is wonderful. Also Robert Henri. Both very fine portraitists, in particular. Where Bellows is best for landscape; wonderful Hudson River views, both urban and bucolic. And in Washington, at the Nat Gal, that spectacular tennis scene with the incredible green light!
Message # 1897 I'm very fond of Johns, especially earlier work. The flags and targets and whatnot. I guess I can see what you're referring to as "false portentousness"—the refs to "the masters", including himself, and esp. that series with the Altdorfer or whatever that is, which I'll concede is generally feeble (but I love the autobiographical "Four Seasons")—but nonetheless
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1906. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 6:48:12 AM
but nonetheless, he is technically very good, and he's very interesting from most any point of view (content, technique, compositionally, materials), and I'll chalk the referential stuff up to personal weakness and let it go. I was very struck at the MOMA retrospective by the strong pattern of powerful new work followed by a gradual letdown with a steepening curve, followed by another breakthrough, etc. The bullshit puzzle pieces of Altdorfer (it's not him in the puzzle piece ones—I think it's a Fleming—but he has an Altdorfer reference somewhere) eventually lead to the Seasons, which I really do think are among the best American art made in the 90s.
As to Rauschenberg, I crazy about him up to around 1970 or so, but the later stuff is sad, imo; the guy doesn't seem to have it anymore, and he repeats himself in work that looks like feeble MFA imitation-R's, except that they're vast in scale adn involve trips around the world, etc. But the Combines (a great one in Baltimore, again)... great, great stuff.
Message # 1898 There are Mitchells at the Whitney and the Modern (though the latter is being rehung, and I'm not sure they're up at present; I didn't get their today, either. My daughter wanted to go to the Met instead, so we saw the Fayum show—very, very fine, if you've any interest in either Egypt or classical art—and the French period rooms.). I'm pretty sure the East Wing in DC has at least one. I was thinking the Philadelphia had one, but it's not in their Guidebook, so maybe not. Anyway, she was very prolific, and I imagine that a lot of small museums with ambitious 20th-century collections may have one.
1907. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 6:57:48 AM
Wizard of Whimsey, that Lopez-Garcia is pretty good. I'll keep an eye out for more. I haven't been to Marlborough in a coon's age, but he looks like a good reason to amend.
Also: nice Steir. Puts the case perfectly.
Sequine: "Dean of American Realism". Hmmm.
Fairfield Porter?
Another new realistic painter (no "school" ref intended) whom I like very much is Neil Welliver. And speaking of Maine, as it were, who is the older painter, of the AE generation (I think) and perhaps dead now, who painted panoramic views of things like bridges and factories, and towns—big views but small (2 x 5, 18" x 36", etc) paintings? Oils. Many set in Maine.
1908. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 7:06:48 AM
BTW, Seguine, I think your conflation of Salle and Fischl is terrific! The latter "progressing" to the former... it would make a good armature for a novel. Fischl wife, incidentally, is another not-quite-good-enough realistic painter, April [last name escaped, something like Konnick, perhaps]. Vague landscapes, often with a dramatic element, as in several with a waterspout, or a lone island. Sometimes seems like a cross between Wolf Kahn and Caspar David Friedrich, though rather more Kahnishly bland (despite the weather), and uninteresting technically. Also, like hubby and their pal Salle, she repeats herself a lot to no purpose.
1909. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 7:08:37 AM
April Dornick, I think. And, after all's said, she's better than he is.
1910. Seguine - 3/5/2000 5:48:42 PM
Boyce, Wiz,
The Dean is Welliver. (I studied with him.)
Salle's wife, April Gornik (?) is indeed the better painter. She did clouds for a while.
1911. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/5/2000 6:43:03 PM
April Gornick is married to Fischl; She has a first rate website...if not first rate technical skills.
I discounted Welliver out of hand (it's like calling Alex Katz a realist) -- to the degree that he abstracts reality, how could he possibly be given that label?
I worked with Salle at The Hartford Art School -- he was an astonishingly hurtful and opportunistic shit...I wish him twenty more bad face lifts!
1912. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 7:01:34 PM
Gornick, yes. Late at night in bed I remembered it.
Seguine, felicitations on your connection with Welliver!
Wizard, commiserations on yours with Salle!
1913. janjon - 3/5/2000 7:02:20 PM
Seguine. The Phillips Collection in D.C. has at least a couple Joan Mitchells. As well as a number of Diebenkorns, of course. What with all of their special exhibits for the damned millennium, I have no idea whether they have one or more Mitchells hanging at this point.
1914. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 7:25:55 PM
"re Diebenkorn, ... I've thought sometimes that his enduring strength may have been owed partly to the initial abstracting from reality; that, as with DeKooning, the uncertainties generated by abstraction's running up against representation tend to make fertile ground." (fr Message # 1898)
Seguine, I meant to remark on this last night. I wholeheartedly agree. In Diebenkorn, and in De Kooning, and in many others (Dove, Gorky, early Gottlieb, Kandinsky, even Mondrian) abstraction is at its best when the forms of nature underlie it. And representationalilty is best when informed by the psychology of "form-making" (but I'll concede I'm not quite sure what I mean by that, in any technical psychological sense), as in, say, O'Keefe, or Porter, or Welliver.
Of course, absent the minimalist wing of AE and its successors, who are imo fairly interesting but are not painters, very little painting does not address these issues; the question is how well, and, perhaps, how consciously.
Not that I don't think Barnet Newman, Ad Reinhart, et al, havn't stimulated some good work, but not in painting. Monumental sculptors, "decorative architects", maybe (and Smithson or Judd or Maya Lin or the Richard Long-Andy Goldsworthy crowd, are far more successful than Newman or Rinehart or even the ameliorated minimalism of the "color field school"), and this is of course very well, but (at least in this sort) sculpture is a medium that overlaps very little with the ancient magic of translating the three-dimensions reality into two-dimensional maps thereof, using hand-eye coordination and berry juices.
1915. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/5/2000 8:05:28 PM
Speaking of "ancient magic," here is a superb discussion that reveals some new insight into the work and life of Caravaggio.[Providing you have RealAudio]
1916. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 8:31:53 PM
Wizard, that Gornik site is indeed first rate. Looking at it, it occured to me that I think her failure, like Fischl's and doubtless many others lies, not so much in technical inadequacy per se, as in her/their intent to begin with. I think that she presumes that an overall effect is the goal. Once the effect has been determined on, be it sexual anomie by the pool (Fischl), randomly distributed pudeur (Salle), randomly distributed ceramic emblems of "break-up" (Schnabel), or "Light after Heat" (Gornik) then the placing of it on the canvas is seen to complete the job. Hence, the globs of color that insufficiently evoke light on tree leaves, etc. Our interest in the effect, let alone any sort of emotional/intellectual transcendence or subversion at its hands, is diminished palpably. One says, "Oh yeah, I see what she's trying to say" and moves on, even if unconscious of the corollary, "Why isn't she saying it." That the thing she is trying to say is inconsequential, really, is unimportant. This is true of many great paintings; consider most any still-life (and, still-lifes writ large, many landscapes; and, still-lifes unstill, many portraits). The saying of it is what we require; therein lies the magic that lazy painting like this omits.
1917. cmboyce - 3/5/2000 8:39:22 PM
Goddammit, she should paint and paint and repaint and repaint until we are forced to be actually there when we're in front of her painting!
(Of course, the demise of the apprentice/workshop system makes this more difficult, and the demise of the traditional work ethic may make this embarrassing (to the would-be haute-bohemian), but there are plenty of examples of present-day artists doing it. And if she really gives a shit about the beauty-of-the-moment feeling she purports to evoke, which I doubt, she should follow them.)
1918. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/5/2000 9:16:25 PM
cmboyce- Wonderful analysis of their paralysis! It reminds me of an old Arabic story:
A relative once came to visit a local mullah, bringing a duck as a gift. So the bird was cooked and eaten.
Soon one guest after another began to call, each claiming to be a friend of the friend of "the relative who brought the duck." Each one, of course, expected to be fed and housed on that hapless bird.
At length the mullah could stand it no longer. One day a stranger arrived at his house and said, "I am a friend of the kinsman who brought you the duck." And, like the others, he sat down expecting to be fed.
His host placed a bowl of steaming water before him. "What is this?" asked the stranger.
"This" said the old mullah, "is the soup of the soup of the duck that was brought to me by your friend."
1919. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/5/2000 9:21:04 PM
1870. Seguine - 3/4/00 3:47:03 PM
"Talk is USELESS."
For the most part, yes. And that is why I rarely visit this thread.
Reminded me of this:
Once upon a time there was a Zen student who quoted an old Buddhist poem to his teacher which says: "The voices of torrents are from one great tongue./ The lines of the hills are the pure body of Buddha." "Isn't that right?" he asked the teacher.
"It is," said the teacher, "but it's a pity to say so!"
1920. Seguine - 3/6/2000 3:17:34 AM
"Goddammit, she should paint and paint and repaint and repaint until we are forced to be actually there when we're in front of her painting!"
Hell, I'd be happy if the artists themselves were actually there...
1921. Seguine - 3/6/2000 3:36:31 AM
"Of course, absent the minimalist wing of AE and its successors, who are imo fairly interesting but are not painters,"
Right. I assume you mean guys like Albers? (This reminds me, Sy Sillman is now dead; he and/or Albers had a book on color theory I have been meaning to look into...)
"very little painting does not address these issues [form-making]; the question is how well, and, perhaps, how consciously."
I'd almost agree with you here, except that I guess my threshold for what a painting actually addresses rests on the quaint notion that the artist is at least good at (if not necessarily concious of) making forms emerge out of little slops of wet pigment. E.g., I don't care if Bill Traylor "knew", in a formal sense, what he was doing when he made his pictures; he knew what he was doing--he was good at it; that's good enough.
By the same token, painters who are apparently concious of what they should be doing, but nevertheles sort of half-ass it, don't interest me as a rule.
1922. Seguine - 3/6/2000 3:55:09 AM
"And speaking of Maine, as it were, who is the older painter, of the AE generation (I think) and perhaps dead now, who painted panoramic views of things like bridges and factories, and towns—big views but small (2 x 5, 18" x 36", etc) paintings? Oils. Many set in Maine."
I'm drawing a complete blank. Well-known?
Wizard: Yes indeed, the "Dean of American Realism" is Welliver. I asked him once whether that moniker wasn't erroneous, as his work seemed more AE in essence. He got all animated, said of course the "realist" designation was "bullshit", that critics are idiots. Then I think he went on for a bit about how he never reads what they say about him.
Welliver was a weird guy, a bunch of walking contradictions. One of those monster/hero types; amoral; used to drink too much; has done rotten things; has had some terrible tragedies befall him. Used to say he didn't "believe in" depression. I think he may have gone nearly mad staving off justifiable melancholy.
(None of this is to suggest that I know him well; I don't even think I've talked to him in 10 or 12 years.)
1923. Seguine - 3/6/2000 3:57:09 AM
BTW, I find Alex Katz annoying.
1924. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/6/2000 4:24:10 AM
I'll see you that blank and raise you two more...is this a "senior moment?"
You mean Katz the man or his work? Why does he vex you? I find him shrewd, but nothing more. I envy that generation, nevertheless -- they lived in a time of hope. Art's efficacy to inspire has been drained by empty ploys for attention.
Oh, don't get me started...
1925. Uzmakk - 3/6/2000 2:54:01 PM
Upon the recommendation of Lady Seguine I sampled from the well of In Darkness Let Me Dwell and fell into a deep melancholy. My head in my arms upon a table I cried tears from the well of sorrow. I have just now regained the will to sit again in front of my compunication box. Sob, sob.
1926. Seguine - 3/6/2000 3:57:14 PM
"You mean Katz the man or his work?"
Both. He's an asshole, and the later work is pretty vapid (I like his stuff from the '50s, though).
I once sat in a group crit of his, in which as visiting critic he proceeded to rip cruelly through one aspiring MFA after another. Most of these people were awestruck, so took their lickings like good syncophants, but Katz seemed way off base in his remarks. He was utterly uninterested in anything any of them might be striving after, instead crticizing from a grade-schoolish, strictly academic standpoint informed only by his own particular concerns. He (inexplicably) liked the work of exactly one guy, who was working figuratively, from a model, and was really an awful painter--a sort of desperado who did inept pictures of nudes because he couldn't get laid.
It was a very weird scene. Imagine Katz--a tall, balding, dried-up, would-be Warren Beatty--sitting in a chair in the center of a dingy room, surrounded by students sitting on the floor, with the Chief Bootlicker of the Cosmos, Raphael Ferrer, sitting literally at Katz's feet. Composing his face and his queries oh-so-respectfully, setting an example, as it were.
Swear to god, I was the only person who talked back. But being far down the list, I had had time to prepare; everyone else kind of got blindsided by the guy, so they were too intimidated to ask things like, "Well, yeah, but what do you mean by that?"
"I find him shrewd, but nothing more."
Guess you're right about that.
"I envy that generation, nevertheless -- they lived in a time of hope. Art's efficacy to inspire has been drained by empty ploys for attention."
I know what you mean. But you know, it's easier to sell empty ploys for attention to visual illiterates who are unsure of their intellectual capacities than it is to sell good paintings. The public must feel more at home among the former.
1927. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/6/2000 4:57:16 PM
That was a sublimely painted picture you just executed -- very satisfying! I know exactly what you mean -- God, it's the same old shit everywhere.
I had a similar experience with Jim Dine, who rewarded everyone who wasn't mimicing him with condescendence or total avoidance. Did you happen to see Dine's interview with his wife on Charlie Rose a few years ago? It was the artworld's remake of Macbeth!
I also remember a visiting gay NY critic who included every phallic object every made in his slide lecture/troll for young lovers. It's so pathetic...
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1928. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/6/2000 5:05:31 PM
That was a sublimely painted picture you just executed -- very satisfying! I know exactly what you mean -- God, it's the same old shit everywhere.
I had a similar experience with Jim Dine, who rewarded everyone who wasn't mimicing him with condescendence or total avoidance. Did you happen to see Dine's interview with his wife on Charlie Rose a few years ago? It was the artworld's remake of Macbeth!
I also remember a visiting gay NY critic who included every phallic object every made in his slide lecture/troll for young lovers. It's so pathetic...
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1929. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/6/2000 5:06:30 PM
Pardon!
1930. MizPhys - 3/6/2000 5:37:10 PM
There's a double-posted penis projectile, by gum!
1931. Seguine - 3/6/2000 5:51:47 PM
"-- God, it's the same old shit everywhere."
Took me years to discover that for a certainty; naturally, one has one's suspicions, but you tend to assume you must be misreading these situations out of some degree of personal insecurity. Man, what a racket.
I'll say this about Welliver. He loved having acolytes, just like the rest of them, and he could be a bastard toward any woman he wanted to fuck, but he was a sharp mind and an excellent critic. Ten minutes' worth of his commentary would likely give a painter more useful insights than 2 hours' worth of anyone else's.
"Did you happen to see Dine's interview with his wife on Charlie Rose a few years ago? It was the artworld's remake of Macbeth!"
Oh, that sounds like a scream. I'm sorry to have missed it.
Boyce: the older/dead Maine painter of factory landscapes--possibly Rudy Burckhardt? I don't know why I think of him; I'm pretty sure I don't even know his work.
Janjon et al., thanks for the suggestions re finding paintings by Mitchell.
1932. Seguine - 3/6/2000 5:54:43 PM
Uzmakk,
Did I not mention that you mustn't forget your daily Prozac before taking on John Dowland?
(BTW, if you decide to take your own life or anything, I sure would appreciate a little remembrance in your will.)
1933. Seguine - 3/6/2000 7:34:23 PM
Oh, Uzmakk, I hope you didn't listen to "In Darkness..." by some performer other than John Potter. Check out Amazon and listen to the sample from "Weep You No More, Sad Fountains".
1934. Uzmakk - 3/6/2000 8:19:12 PM
No, I got the right one. The one Boyce linked to.
1935. Lucky - 3/7/2000 12:59:09 AM
Seguine and Whimsy--
I loved reading your descriptions of the "great artists and teachers." What a flash of agreement from my experiences! I studied creative writing and poetry with Allen Ginsburg and James Dickey. They were both among the most insufferable self-satisfied assholes I have ever met. The only other "legendary artist/teacher" I have worked with who could perhaps top either one of them in assholeness (!) was/is Chuck Berry.
1936. Lucky - 3/7/2000 12:59:51 AM
Sorry, Ginsberg
1937. joezan - 3/7/2000 1:38:47 AM
Wiz Message # 1927 & Message # 1928:
You MUST remember to zip your fly, dude...
1938. cmboyce - 3/7/2000 5:00:05 AM
Message # 1922 I still haven't come up with the guy, Sequine. He's not a big deal or anything, but I think he's probably fairly well known. Or was 25 years ago, anyway. His being from Maine is the feature I'm least sure of. But the piece I remember best was of a bridge over a harbor somewhere in Maine. Anyway, some night it'll pop into my head, and I'll write it down (lest it be lost), and report here.
Message # 1919 Nice one, Wiz. It reminds me of people who look out over a gorgeous Alpine meadow or someplace, and say "Isn't the silence wonderful?" Well, yeah, it was, you blitherer.
1939. Seguine - 3/7/2000 5:49:32 PM
Hmmm. Not necessarily Maine. Marsden Hartley? No, I think you mentioned him...
1940. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/7/2000 9:47:07 PM
Rockwell Kent? Rackstraw Downes? Edmond Muskie?
1941. janjon - 3/7/2000 9:49:57 PM
Hopper?
1942. cmboyce - 3/8/2000 1:36:30 AM
Rackstraw Downes!
Yay, Wiz!
(Now tell me how far off I was.)
1943. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/8/2000 4:48:34 AM
I forget the original question! He certainly is a genuine realist and a Yalee with connections -- unassuming and hard working. He enjoys solving visual problems and finds poetry in the visceral experience of space. A plugger, but certainly not a visionary, by any stretch of the imagination. I've heard two lectures by him, both a bit dull but sincere. The people I know who cllect him are investment types -- one is an egotistical arbitrator.
1944. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/8/2000 4:57:20 AM
Actually he's a reasonable investment. You can pick up his etchings at Crown Point Press for under a thousand. 
1945. cmboyce - 3/8/2000 6:23:03 AM
Well, the egotistical arb's money is as green as anyone else's. It's a trade as well as a calling (when it is a calling, of course).
How old is Downes?
1946. cmboyce - 3/8/2000 6:24:13 AM
"It's a trade as well as a calling" refers to painting not arbing.
1947. TheWizardofWhimsy - 3/8/2000 2:41:31 PM
I think he's in his late 50's - early 60's.
In contrast to Downes, in these days where artists' reputations are inflated by their manipulation of commercial media over their skills with traditional materials, artists like Hans Haacke will always get more attention.
Putting audio speakers in garbage cans with the sound of "jackboots marching in the background" and "a reproduction of the First Amendment framed in gold and six quotations, written in the Gothic typescript used by Hitler, from American politicians" seems pretty hackneyed and overworked for someone with Haake's celebrity -- and I'm totally sympathetic with his point of view. Though in fairness, I should wait and see it firsthand before discounting his efforts.
1948. desertlily - 3/10/2000 2:29:18 PM
It's Haacke himself, who is the fascist. Ten years ago, the streets of Manhattan were the crime-paradise of thugs and hoodlums.....now that it got cleaned up some, a very small group of extremely self-righteous losers orchestrated that infantile cowdung exhibit with the truly evil purpose of destroying the only thing left for them to get their swastika paws on...New York's attempt to become civilized once again.
1949. cmboyce - 3/10/2000 5:06:24 PM
Desertlily. You need watering.
But welcome to the Mote. I don't think I've seen you're moniker before.
1950. cmboyce - 3/10/2000 5:07:52 PM
Your.
1951. Jenerator - 3/10/2000 5:18:08 PM
Good thing you caught that before Pelle did, or you would have been labeled as one of those.;-)
1952. PelleNilsson - 3/10/2000 10:51:46 PM
sto
I just heard on the radio La os flyve till en skjerne with Nina and Fredrik. God, the nostalgia! Takes me back almost forty years, sitting on the floor in front of an open fire, young would-be sophisticates, horn-rimmed glasses, tweed jackets with elbow patches, pipes with English shag, acid red wine, discussing The Meaning of Life and What is Love.
Earlier in the week I heard an interview with Svend Asmundsen, the jazz violinist. He must be 80+ but is still active. He speaks the most charming Scandinavian. Svend is very popular here, loved actually. Are you too young to remember the Swe-Danes, Svend, Ulrik Neuman and Alice Babs? They combined great musicality with a lovely sense of humour.
1953. RosettaStone - 3/11/2000 2:38:39 AM
Two words:
Macy Gray.
1954. stostosto - 3/11/2000 9:58:47 PM
Pelle:
I am not too young, since the Swe-Danes have been aired frequently in radio programmes and, occasionally, on TV too. But definitely targeting my parents' generation much more than my own. I have a high appreciation of Svend Asmussen in particular ('Svaj-Svend' as he was nicknamed). He remains one of the finest jazz violinists ever. On a par with Stephane Grapelli, who was the powerful tone to Asmussen's refined one.
But, I have to tell you, such resonance to Nina/Frederik, Swe-Danes, Asmussen etc., is quite a rarity among my generation. (I think Nina and Frederik were the weaker artists among the said, btw.)
Anyway, your reminiscing was extremely vivid. It actually gave me the goosebumps reading it. It was so much my parents' thing, and they still have a bunch of very good friends who were into that kind of stuff.
1955. KuligintheHooligan - 3/12/2000 8:18:54 PM
An open question:
Does anybody here have experience with MIDI compatible software, like Cakewalk or Finale or Sibelius? I have a Yamaha Clavinova and am writing music, and would like to have some software that I can have automatically write what I play on the piano. Some years ago I had some MusicPrinterPlus software, but that is quite old and useless now. I want something new.
Anybody that has any experience in this area, please help if possible with your recommendations and experience. Thank you.
1956. desertlily - 3/13/2000 6:39:47 AM
Does anyone know if it's true that Beck's "loser" was created by someone in his group who has since committed suicide?
1957. RosettaStone - 3/13/2000 1:57:13 PM
desert: I'll try to find out for you. Some of my son's friends are big fans of Beck. They recently went to see him in Virginia and loved his "Midnight Vulture" tour.
1958. theDiva - 3/13/2000 2:52:49 PM
Today is Quincy Jones' birthday.
1959. theDiva - 3/13/2000 2:52:57 PM
and this is my birth year.
1960. PelleNilsson - 3/13/2000 3:07:24 PM
It's Einstein's birthday too. His 121st.
1961. cmboyce - 3/13/2000 4:19:03 PM
Message # 1959
Diva, are we to understand that you are newly reborn? Or that you are 100 years old? Or that you're as old as Quincy Jones? Consulting Leonard Feather, I find that Jones is 67, older than I had envisioned you (I've seen your wedding pictures and am in no doubt); a posteriori (I think), also true of 100. And I believe you are Catholic, no? Could you explain this gnomic message, then?
1962. cmboyce - 3/13/2000 4:19:50 PM
Never mind, I see it.
1963. theDiva - 3/13/2000 4:25:16 PM
heehee
noone has ever called me gnomic before. I feel as though I've been through a rite of passage.
1964. cmboyce - 3/13/2000 4:42:32 PM
Message # 1947 "Though in fairness, I should wait and see it
firsthand before discounting his [Hans Haacke's] efforts. "
Nah. I really don't think you do. One of the things about "conceptual art" is that you don't need to see it, at least in principal. Hearing about it, if the account is circumstantial and clear (and accurate) enough, will do. This makes them poems, not painting or sculpture, and the proclamations about "unsaleability" rather silly--and often rather disingenuous (to be charitable), as well. I can't say I mind, really; I'm very fond of the likes of Yoko Ono, Walter de Maria and (a purer example), the guy who lived outdoors for a year, and later tethered himself to his co-artist, a woman (mutual antipathy reigned), for another year, Sam [Blank], where the blank is his Chinese surname which I've forgotten. Of course, I didn't see them (and am grateful therefore, probably), but I enjoyed reading about it all, and would be pleased to come across an update of his career. But this is, imo, a very minor branch of late 20th-century whimsy, closely akin to Rococo gamboling-monkey wallpaper design (and this is a serious desideratum of my 20th-c.-18th c. comparison, of which I think I've spoken). So, while if I'm in the presence of a Haacke or a Barbara Kruger, and am struck by its appearance (to this extent, the piece on the wall or floor or both, has a legitimate sensory quality, like--and with little more importance than--typography to a printed poem), I may read it, I'm certainly not going to trek uptown to see one.
1965. cmboyce - 3/13/2000 4:43:44 PM
Message # 1963
But still young, Deev. And doubtless always will be.
1966. theDiva - 3/13/2000 4:44:35 PM
aw shucks.
1967. JJBiener - 3/13/2000 11:47:27 PM
Kuligan - I have some experience with various MIDI sequencers and notation programs. I would be willing to answer any questions I can.
1968. 109109 - 3/14/2000 5:29:40 PM
I was recently given as a gift Hanz Zimmer's score for "The Thin Red Line." It is haunting and possibly the most affecting score I have heard in years. I recalled it being impressive in the theater (certainly more impressive than the film). I recommend it.
I also recommend the score to "The Cider House Rules" which is more pedestrian, but beautiful in its own right. Nowhere near Zimmer's work (it was scored by Rachel Portman, who I do not know).
1969. Indiana Jones - 3/16/2000 3:38:51 PM
Good news for Pelle!.
No one ever said Americans and Brits should monopolize the "broken-down old peformers on a comeback" tour.
1970. PelleNilsson - 3/16/2000 5:53:10 PM
Indiana
Strange stuff.
1971. desertlily - 3/17/2000 1:48:47 PM
Don't lump all "conceptual art" into the Haacke category, please? That's what I loathe about fascists like him and a Whitney that supports them: they destroy (or try to, anway) an entire artform with their incompetent drivel....................I myself am a conceptual artist and trust me: the beauty of the work is in seeing it!
1972. RosettaStone - 3/17/2000 3:34:29 PM
desert: For what it's worth, my son's friends know nothing about who the musician Beck was talking about in "Loser". Try Table Talk's music folder. They have experts on Beck, I believe.
1973. alistairconnor - 3/17/2000 10:19:24 PM
Does anyone have an opinion on the Steely Dan album?
1974. arkymalarky - 3/18/2000 2:28:03 AM
I love Steely Dan but haven't heard the album. Bro really likes it, but if he likes a band he tends to like anything they put out, so he's not a credible critic.
1975. JJBiener - 3/19/2000 5:18:17 PM
alistair - I heard bits and pieces during an NPR piece on the new album. It is different from their older stuff, but what I heard sounded good. It should probably be worth a try.
1976. theDiva - 3/19/2000 5:37:46 PM
Some incredibly hip meteorologist at the Weather Channel has been playing Bird selections during the local forecasts. Imagine my surprise at hearing Swedish Schnapps come pouring out behind the five day outlook.
1977. JudithAtHome - 3/20/2000 8:44:50 PM
Last night we went to a performance of the Bruce Wood Dance Company, a group I have mentioned here before. Once again, a superb evening but for the absence of Mr. Woods participation. He was slated to dance what turned out to be a very unique instance in dance theatre here in conservative Cowtown; instead, history was made by his understudy.
The dance was a rendition of a pair of lovers, coming together and drifting apart, all to the strains of Someone To Watch Over Me and it was exquisitely done. You could see and feel the tenderness felt by the lovers and feel their sadness at parting. What made it unique was the fact the couple was male. It brought the house down.
1978. Greystoke - 3/20/2000 11:38:49 PM
Review of the CSNY concert in Pittsburgh.
1979. Jonesatlaw - 3/24/2000 5:37:38 PM
There's a great exhibition at our local art museum- Dale Chihuly. One of the works in ice is featured on his website Chihuly outside Joslyn.
1980. JudithAtHome - 3/24/2000 5:45:13 PM
With those ice sculptures, he is verging on Cristo territory...
1981. Jonesatlaw - 3/24/2000 5:47:15 PM
Judith- in his defense, those were a rather minor part of the exhibition. The weather insured that they were as well, as there was a rapid warm up soon after installation.
1982. JudithAtHome - 3/24/2000 5:55:19 PM
Jones:
I wasn't disparaging him at all; I thought the ice peices were neat. I was just pointing out that, unlike his other work which is lasting, the ice work is more like Cristo, whom I like for his audacity and for the fact that the "moment" of art is part of his work.
1983. Jonesatlaw - 3/24/2000 6:27:57 PM
Gentle Judith- pardon me. I am switching back and forth from the legal and political threads and my defensiveness followed me. (Along with my prejudice against Christo, I am afraid.)
1984. JudithAtHome - 3/24/2000 6:59:26 PM
Well, Cristo is a bit much but luckily, we are spared any permanent memories of his work!
1985. Jonesatlaw - 3/24/2000 8:56:39 PM
Judith- I am trying to get out of my (male) habit of trying to quantify or rank art when I see it. I have to admit that I am defensive when it comes to art, especially here where it is clear that most folk who post in the thread are either in the arts by vocation or serious avocation. When I was younger I was a philistine, most notably concerning abstract art. I hated the hard edge stuff, the soakers, the color blocks etc. I loved Keith Jacobshagen, who painted huge skyscapes with detailed tiny foregrounds. I heard him speak about how he loved to work with the sky because of all the beautiful abstractions. I realized that I loved his paintings for the emotional effect they had, and how I had been enjoying 'abstract' art all along. Now I simply try to enjoy art without trying to force anything on the work. I still don't like many of the paintings I didn't like before, but at least I've given myself permission to enjoy whatever strikes me without regard to category. I saw a painting shortly after my conversion that I really loved. I am afraid I cannot remember the artist's name, but it was a somewhat amoeba shaped canvas, with bright basic colors, and curved ramp like areas around the perimeter of the canvas. I can't describe it any better than it was fun. It was a painting on canvas, but it broke all the other rules. It had curving ramps formed by the canvas streching over a shaped form, and wood attached to it. It came out from the gallery wall literally, and figuratively it grabbed you by the shoulder and said look at this! I laughed in surprise and smiled like toddlers do when they are surprised by a toy.
1986. JudithAtHome - 3/24/2000 9:04:34 PM
Jones:
I know what you mean...despite being somewhat educated in Art History, I try to react to each piece as I see it. I might like one abstract piece but not the next; I might be left cold by what "they" decide is the greatest piece of art ever.
I'm going to be exposed tonight to much that is bad and, I hope, some that is good. I may love some of the bad and be totally unmoved by what is good. That's art...
We're going to a Gallery tour this evening, after a 4pm stint with Edward Albees Seascape at a downtown theatre. The Spring Gallery Tour starts at 6pm so we are definitely in for a cultural Saturday.
1987. Jonesatlaw - 3/24/2000 9:23:14 PM
Judith- enjoy!
1988. MizPhys - 3/25/2000 12:34:59 AM
I saw a great production of Twelve Angry Men last night.
1989. MizPhys - 3/25/2000 12:40:01 AM
It was very well cast, particularly Juror 3(the one who transfers his feelings about his son to the defendent), Juror 8 (the one who first votes not-guilty), and Juror 10 (the bigot). The show was held over a week, and drew the biggest attendance for a non-musical in the theater's history. We saw it on closing night.
1990. RosettaStone - 3/26/2000 2:44:58 AM
Funny open at the Oscars.
1991. RosettaStone - 3/26/2000 2:45:33 AM
Song doesn't work.
1992. RosettaStone - 3/26/2000 2:47:32 AM
Monologue is weak.
1993. RosettaStone - 3/26/2000 2:48:38 AM
"People" works. Number One son likes the lyrics.
1994. RosettaStone - 3/26/2000 2:49:35 AM
"60 Minutes" song doesn't work at all.
1995. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 6:00:51 AM
The show blows.
1996. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 6:01:10 AM
Big circle jerk in Pasadena.
1997. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 6:01:25 AM
Just like last year.
1998. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 6:01:48 AM
Just like every year.
1999. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 6:04:02 AM
And of course, even the edited "Blame Canada" didn't have a chance. Instead, that insipid piece of Phil Collins toe cheese got the nod. Even Stevie Wonder saw that one coming up the road.
Oh well, at least they didn't give it to that Gloria Estefan/N'Stink "collaboration".
2000. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 6:04:21 AM
millenial
2001. SpenceMirrlees - 3/26/2000 6:48:42 AM
Oscars aren't in Pasadena.
Neither are the Emmys anymore, but that's what used to be until 1998.
2002. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 7:18:28 AM
Spence:
They aren't? Shit, my bad. Pasadena's still a fine city.
Huntington Memorial Hospital still there on Congress Avenue? That's where I was first unleashed on an unsuspecting world.
2003. CalGal - 3/26/2000 7:33:29 AM
Hey. I liked that toecheese. Call me a sentimentalist if you will.
2004. EricCartman - 3/26/2000 7:52:17 AM
Cal:
OK, you're a sentimentalist.
Hey, obviously someone liked that toe cheese. But which of the five songs got the biggest audience response?
That's right, the one that didn't sound like the same old same old.
Although, to be honest, I also liked the Aimee Mann song from Magnolia. That was actually a good one, an interesting song.
But Phil Collins stopped being interesting after his first solo album, imho. It's still hard to believe that this is the same guy who used to be such a great drummer, and tour with other great drummers like Bill Bruford and Chester Thompson, and play wonderfully innovative and imaginative songs like "Supper's Ready" and "Cinema Show".
2005. Jenerator - 3/26/2000 5:49:37 PM
I finally got to see one of my favorite early nouveau paintings this past weekend at Tate Britain. Done by Rossetti, titled The Beloved. In person, the colors are much more vivid and the faces are absolutely beautiful. The bride's eyes are a green I've never seen before. 
Unfortunately, so much of its beauty is lost on the computer screen. You can barely make out the face of the gorgeous young black child holding the roses in the lower-left corner.
2006. JudithAtHome - 3/26/2000 11:39:04 PM
I think Rosetti used guys as models...most of his paintings of women look as though they are strong men in drag. But they are beautiful.
2007. Jenerator - 3/27/2000 2:15:17 PM
Judith,
I think that some of the female figures are masculine because their bodies are enormous. It's similar to the way Mary is portrayed in so many of the pietas. I think thought that the large size of the feamles is to show their prominence, beauty, importance and power. He (Rossetti) practiced and practiced on prefecting the ideal female beauty...full lips, symetrical face, Roman nose, big eyes, long lashes, and flowing hair.
2008. Jenerator - 3/27/2000 2:16:02 PM
thought should be that.
2009. JudithAtHome - 3/27/2000 5:22:52 PM
Jen:
But the most masculine thing about his females is the face. The face is very mannish and the necks are thicker. I'll admit they are powerful females but the power comes from looking masculine, not from idealized beauty. Just my opinion...I'm not denigrating his talent in the least; I love his stuff.
2010. profemeritus - 3/29/2000 4:50:04 AM
A masterful review by the phenomenal John Updike. The current rage at the Metropolitan Museum.
2011. Candide - 3/29/2000 5:39:06 AM
Profemeritus
I have just read the review by Updike. I must go out I'm afraid but I wanted to say thank you for the experience. I have seen less German wood carving than I would have wished to.
I was interested that Updike quoted Herbert Read. I thought Read had been forgotten. He was important in the development of my generation's aesthetic awareness, stuck as we were at the time in a place without much fine European work. Maori art was the best experience available to us and strong and fine as that is we needed to connect with our heritage.
2012. theDiva - 3/30/2000 3:42:50 PM
Today is the birth date of the incomparable rhythm guitarist
Freddie Green
Courtesy of Scott Yanow of the All-Music Guide:
Freddie Green was known throughout his long career as the definitive rhythm guitarist. He rarely soloed (NOTE FROM DIVA - this was because he was such an integral part of the rhythm section that when he soloed, the band lost its groove and couldn't swing!), he stuck to acoustic guitar and was often more felt than heard. Although he had originally played banjo, Green was playing guitar in New York in early 1937 when producer John Hammond heard him and immediately recommended him to Count Basie. A quick audition and Green had the job, forming a classic rhythm section with Basie, Walter Page and Jo Jones.
After 13 years with the orchestra, Green was not originally included in Basie's small group in 1950 but one night sat down uninvited on the bandstand and never left! He stayed with the band even after its leader's death, making a recording with Dianne Schuur and the Frank Foster-led orchestra in 1987 shortly before he passed on after nearly 50 years of service. Freddie Green also composed "Corner Pocket" (later renamed "Until I Met You" for the vocal version) and "Down for Double." (FURTHER NOTE FROM DIVA - he also enjoyed a romance with Lady Day.)
2013. JudithAtHome - 3/30/2000 3:55:03 PM
Anthony Powell...RIP.
2014. Rivendell - 3/30/2000 4:04:00 PM
Think I'll put Atomic Swing on in honor of Freddie Green.
2015. janjon - 3/30/2000 8:29:06 PM
Who is Anthony Powell?
2016. PelleNilsson - 3/30/2000 8:37:33 PM
British novelist.
Famous for 'Dance to the Music of Time', a 12-volume work on British society, in particular the chattering classes. One of those authors one should really read but never gets around to.
2017. Candide - 3/31/2000 8:26:07 AM
Anthony Powell
A British television series based on "Dance to the Music of Time" had its moments and is a painless introduction to those novels which are very long and very numerous (12 novels). I don't know whether the BBC made it available on video? I should imagine that it did as it was an expensive production. Powell was an astonishingly prolific writer who published many other works including four-volumes of memoirs..
2018. theDiva - 4/2/2000 6:58:31 PM
I want to thank this thread's host, JJ Biener, for recommending Spinner.com to me, and I heartily recommend that others check it out. It is a music streaming website which is completely free; you download and install a small application, select the type of music you want, and bingo! There you are. 21 channels, one commercial per hour (You're Listening to Spinner dot com!) terrific sound quality with no dropouts or interruptions (a la RealPlayer) and an excellent selection. Great stuff.
2019. JJBiener - 4/2/2000 9:46:16 PM
Diva - I am glad you like Spinner.com. I have it on right now.
For anyone else who is interested, I put a link to Spinner.com in the butter bar along with links to MP3 and RealAudio. If anyone has suggestions for additional links, let me know.
2020. theDiva - 4/2/2000 9:52:47 PM
Their selection is incredible. Really hip stuff, and very diverse. Right now I'm listening to the New Jazz channel, with JohnSantos and Machete doing Trane's Syeeda's Song Flute. Good schtuff. Thanks again.
2021. JJBiener - 4/2/2000 10:54:08 PM
Aw, shucks.
2022. Uzmakk - 4/2/2000 11:28:59 PM
Check out those lips. First time I've seen 'em.
2023. janjon - 4/4/2000 7:53:08 PM
one commercial an hour cannot last, but it sounds like a great deal.
2024. theDiva - 4/4/2000 7:54:44 PM
well, their interface has commercials flashing all over it, but fortunately you can open other windows over it and not have to look at the adds.
Unfortunately, it is leading me to browse e-bay for new music and I am spending far too much money.
2025. joezan - 4/5/2000 3:41:57 AM
Well, I'm pretty impressed with Spinner. I downloaded it earlier today, and this is the 3rd time I've been back trying to program it. I think I've finally got it.
"70's 8trax" is on - so far, the mix is very diverse (Pink Floyd's Young Lust, followed by Delaney & Bonnie's Never-ending Song of Love, and now, Al Green's Call Me (Back home, baby) - oh...wait - here comes ELO's Evil Woman).
Very nice...
2026. joezan - 4/5/2000 3:43:10 AM
...no Christian rock, though.
2027. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 4:57:29 PM
joezan - I have always thought the term Christian Rock was a contradiction in terms. But I guess that's just me.
2028. theDiva - 4/5/2000 8:20:03 PM
Joe
There's a gospel channel.
2029. JudithAtHome - 4/5/2000 11:00:45 PM
If anyone is interested in seeing some fantastic dancing, watch Burn the Floor either on tape or on tour...it is superb!
2030. marshame - 4/6/2000 12:00:32 AM
JJ
Come to the Bible Belt and you'll have your pick of 3 or 4 Christian Rock fm channels.
2031. JJBiener - 4/6/2000 12:12:57 AM
marshame - I was being facetious. I know a lot about Christian Rock groups. My sister-in-law was really into them for a while.
2032. marshame - 4/6/2000 12:28:01 AM
Okay, just checking!
By the way, my first effort at spinner.com didn't work, so I'll try again.
2033. joezan - 4/6/2000 5:08:14 AM
Diva:
Is it (Gospel) a main heading I've somehow missed? Or a sub-heading - if so, what heading is it under?
2034. theDiva - 4/6/2000 2:54:18 PM
Joe
It's under Themes.
2035. theDiva - 4/6/2000 3:19:38 PM
Today is the birthdate of the greatest jazz singer of all time.
I am speaking, of course, of Billie Holiday. Bio to follow.
2036. Indiana Jones - 4/6/2000 3:22:25 PM
Thanks for the info, Diva. I've got Nat King Cole on right now, but when this CD is over, it's time for Billie's Best.
2037. theDiva - 4/6/2000 3:23:50 PM
Today ought to be a national holiday, with parades in the street and everything.
2038. Indiana Jones - 4/6/2000 3:28:21 PM
I'm not the music expert you are, Diva, but I know what I like.
2039. theDiva - 4/6/2000 3:33:54 PM
Indy, I'm hardly an expert. Far from it. But like you, I know what I like.
Now, here is a beautiful bio/essay about Lady Day.
2040. Cellar Door - 4/6/2000 4:06:04 PM
Lovely time last night at "Book Soup" where Arthur Laurents read from "Original Story By" and signed copies for an appreciative audience (mostly older with a smattering of really smart young gay guys.) Happily I was able to get a copy of my review -- literally hot off the press -- to hand to him. (It will appear in this Sunday's edition of the "Los Angeles Times" Book Review.)
"My you're looking well," Arthur said. "I remember that you became ill and couldn't come to New York to talk to me for your book. Very good title, I must say -- Open Secret."
So I filled him in about my stroke, about which he'd only heard sketchily.
"You know you remind me a lot of George Wolfe. he's about you're height. But you're much better looking."
And so, having been flirted with by the author of "West Side Story," "Gypsy," "The Way We Were," and "Rope," I can now retire.
He read from the opening, and the Gore Vidal passages of the book, and the bits about the making of "The Way We Were." Afterwards someone asked him about the Sondheim interview in last Sunday's "New York Times."
"Wasn't that incredible? 'No good song composers after 50'? Utter bullshit. But Steve can't handle success. He LOVES failure. He us to hang out in the lobby when we were on the road with Gypsy to pick up random comments, and come rushing back to us and say 'Oh they just hated it!' What he said about composers is a good example of the stupid things brilliant people can sometimes manage to say. Like Scott Fitzgerald with his 'There are no Second Acts in American life." Well I'm on my Fourth Act!"
2041. theDiva - 4/6/2000 4:08:07 PM
I love it. Cellar, you are a treat.
2042. Cellar Door - 4/6/2000 5:07:55 PM
(BLUSH)
2043. Ronski - 4/6/2000 5:32:27 PM
Saw Audra McDonald (Ragtime, Carousel) and Betty Buckley (Cats, Sunset Boulevard) perform at a fundraiser last night. After individual sets, they teamed up for the Rose/Louise duet from Gypsy and the "A Boy Like That/I Have a Love" duet from West Side Story. Quite a lot of fun.
2044. joezan - 4/7/2000 3:40:55 AM
Diva:
Thanks! Not only is there Gospel, but the Christian heading is (so far) great - they've just played two songs by Maire Brennan, an Irish artist, from two different collaborative albums. She's got a beautiful voice and a style much like Enya's. The first selection, Don't Give Up, is a duet with (ex-Doobie) Michael McDonald, from the CD Streams.
ALL: If you ever get a chance, give this CD a listen - there are contributions from 9 or 10 artists, all with the theme of healing in difficult times. Another real interesting match-up from this CD is a song called All I Need, by a popular Christian group called 4 Him. The first time I heard this song I thought YES had regrouped - the lead vocal is supplied by none other than Jon Anderson!
JJ:
I have always thought the term Christian Rock was a contradiction in terms.
The way I see it, we've co-opted the term for the greater good (:
2045. joezan - 4/7/2000 3:43:36 AM
...btw - thanks for the link!
2046. CalGal - 4/7/2000 4:25:38 AM
Ronski,
I just bought Audra McDonald's CD, How Glory Goes--saw her on PBS. Good stuff.
2047. Diogenes - 4/7/2000 5:30:06 PM
Hi all.
This picture was posted the other day #2006. It did look at bit dark, so that inspired the graphics guy in me to touch it up a little - hope you enjoy this. 
2048. JJBiener - 4/9/2000 5:18:44 AM
joezan - There is a reason why Maire Brennan and Enya have similar voices and styles. They are sisters. Maire started a group called Clannad with her brother and two uncles. When Enya was old enough she joined Clannad for a couple of CDs then went off on her own. A few years later Maire began to release solo efforts as well. If you like Maire and Enya, check out their work with Clannad. I think you will like it. Anam and Fuaim are quite good.
2049. joezan - 4/9/2000 5:49:04 AM
Heh - no kidding? Do I have an ear, or what?
2050. cmboyce - 4/9/2000 6:31:45 AM
Diogenes, nice rendering. Thanks.
I hadn't realized the pre-Raphealites were so into popcorn.
2051. CalGal - 4/9/2000 9:05:33 PM
Has anyone ever used Liquid Audio?
I was wondering about the musicians in particular, although it'd be interesting to see what consumers think as well. Nice way to build a custom CD.
2052. JJBiener - 4/10/2000 1:04:27 AM
Cal - I have heard good things about liquid audio, but I haven't tried it myself.
2053. CalGal - 4/10/2000 2:15:12 AM
I'm doing some contracting there at the moment (one of the part-time gigs) and thought they looked interesting. Particularly for musicians who wanted to put together a CD--it seemed much more inexpensive than any other option.
2054. JJBiener - 4/10/2000 8:51:38 PM
Cal - I have been using MP3. It has better pentration than liquid audio and it isn't proprietary. There are MP3 encoders and decoders everywhere these days.
2055. CalGal - 4/10/2000 8:53:19 PM
No, I was thinking more of their distribution system. I know nothing of the technical issues involved.
2056. joezan - 4/15/2000 3:14:15 PM
I was just flipping through the channels, and happened to run across the image of some tiny kid - maybe 5 or 6 y.o., up on a stage in front of a huge audience, dressed up like some biker-rock star, preening and posing like some gangsta rapper, while some guy with long, stringy hair was screaming and playing what looked like a steel-bodied guitar a few feet away.
The ending credits (it was on VH-1 - boy, have they changed!) identified the artist as Kid Rock.
Is Kid Rock the guy with the hair, a "musical" concept, or the little kid?
I cringe at posting this in "Arts & Music", but I guess it was, technically, music.
2057. arkymalarky - 4/15/2000 6:27:13 PM
Mose says that's not a little kid, but a midget, and his name is Joe C.
2058. EricCartman - 4/15/2000 6:29:50 PM
Joezan:
Kid Rock is the guy with the stringy, greasy-looking hair. Just think -- he was up for a Grammy for Best New Artist, even though he's on his fifth album.
2059. joezan - 4/16/2000 6:47:01 AM
arky:
A midget, huh?
Wow. That's novel.
Cartman:
Is there some justification for that (nomination for Best "New" Artist)?
There seems to be a lot of that going around in recent years. What are the quals? Are you "new", simply because no one's ever heard of you?
2060. EricCartman - 4/16/2000 6:56:41 AM
Joezan:
Well, that's my point -- it fits in perfectly with the real philosophy of the Grammys, which is that your music doesn't count unless it sells boffo units.
I mean, it's pretty obvious that they completely value commerce over art, which is fine, it's just bizarre that they still bother with the pretense of it all.
It doesn't matter; I don't think anybody really ascribes any sort of legitimacy to these things anyway. But it's strange (to me, anyway) that they even bother to go through the motions. I think it's really just a kind of marketing deal that helps the advertising/promotion weasels determine upcoming demographics.
2061. EricCartman - 4/16/2000 6:57:28 AM
BTW, I think Kid Rock has a thing for midgets; I heard he had Gary Coleman in one of his videos also.
2062. joezan - 4/16/2000 7:05:38 AM
How the mighty have fallen.
What would Gary Coleman have said 20 years ago if someone had told him that in the year 2000 he'd be scrounging for bit parts in music videos?
2063. ScottLoar - 4/16/2000 10:48:57 AM
He then could have been reminded of the fate of child actors.
2064. JudithAtHome - 4/16/2000 6:13:09 PM
Edward Gorey, RIP
2065. janjon - 4/16/2000 11:00:56 PM
A big deal in archtecture circles:
Koolhaus does Cool Buildings
The people who run the Pritzker Prize are savvy souls.
2066. janjon - 4/16/2000 11:01:47 PM
argh. Koolhaas. Bauhaus.
2067. T. Tallis - 4/16/2000 11:37:02 PM
Groovy, we're getting a sparkly new Koolhaas here in Mytown USA (a new public library). I've seen the presentation models, and I for one am looking forward to it.
2068. sakonige - 4/17/2000 5:44:06 AM
I heard about that. I heard it's going to be a big, strange-looking building.
2069. TabouliJones - 4/17/2000 9:24:38 AM
Koolhaas is a wonderful architect, imho. He can also be an excellent writer on the topic of architecture. If you don't have a Koolhaas anywhere near you (pretty much everyone in N. Amer.) then check out his wonderful book Delirious New York. His magnum opus S,M,L,XL is also interesting albeit self-indulgent and overpriced.
2070. janjon - 4/17/2000 5:15:11 PM
NYC has a couple of Koolhaas works, but we need more. (I can now use the "we" since I now own a place in the City even though I won't be living there for a few months.) The big brouhaha here will be to see whether the proposed new Gehry museum (a new Guggenheim which would be sited downtown on a couple of East River piers which now have some tennis court "bubbles") makes it to construction. There is a new model and the photographs make it clear that it will be the Bilbao Guggenheim taken a few steps more daring. Yippee!!!!
2071. T. Tallis - 4/18/2000 12:33:41 AM
We're getting a Gehry, too. It's mostly finished and looks great (from the outside, anyhow...it's a rock&roll museum, so I doubt I'll ever get a look at the interior).
2072. janjon - 4/18/2000 12:36:34 AM
Well, buy some earplugs and proceed on in. I mean, after all.
2073. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2000 6:56:46 PM
Diva:
Did I hear right? On NPRs Fresh Air, Terry Gross said Strange Fruit has been chosen as Song of the Century by Time-Life. I'd always assumed it was strictly a Billie Holiday song but evidently not. It was written by a man named Abel Miracle and he just happens to be the man who adopted the 2 sons of the Rosenbergs after their death.
2074. theDiva - 4/18/2000 7:04:31 PM
Judith
They're wrong. It was written by Lewis Allan. He brought to Billie during a gig at Cafe Society and played it for her. She liked it and began including it in her act. Notably, it is the only song she has ever sung exactly as it was written; the only time she did not include it in a performance was one night when a white woman stopped her at intermission and asked her to 'sing the sexy song about the black bodies.'
2075. theDiva - 4/18/2000 7:09:04 PM
anyway, it's kind of a signature song for her, but it's been recorded by:
Sidney Bechet
Terrence Blanchard
Lester Bowie
Abbey Lincoln
Carmen McRae
Nina Simone
Willie 'The Lion' Smith
Mal Waldron
Cassandra Wilson
Sounds of Blackness
2076. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2000 7:09:21 PM
That guy Able Miracle wrote it under a pseud...he was a communist and the song was used for about 3 years in Socialist circles; he took the song to Holiday as you said but, acccording to the interview, he wrote it as Lewis Allan, not using his real name. They interviewed the author of the book about Miracle and the song...
I'll check the NPR web site for the authors name and the name of the book.
2077. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2000 7:10:08 PM
Able=Abel
2078. theDiva - 4/18/2000 7:10:32 PM
How about that! I had no idea it'd been written under a pseud. Ya learn something new every day....in jazz circles, it's considered that he wrote it for her. Interesting!
2079. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2000 7:12:57 PM
Yes, that's what the author said...he said Holiday sort of encouraged the idea it was done for her or rather, didn't didcourage it. It was a fascinating interview...I'd always assumed it was written for her, too. But the weird thing to me is that he adopted the Rosenberg boys!
2080. theDiva - 4/18/2000 7:13:35 PM
well, I guess someone had to.
2081. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2000 7:15:37 PM
Well, I'm glad someone DID...they didn't do anything!
2082. janjon - 4/18/2000 7:16:49 PM
He could easily have written another song entitled "Burned to a Crisp Fruit" too, I guess.
2083. theDiva - 4/18/2000 7:17:36 PM
Interesting that you bring Billie up, considering that for the past two days I've been embroiled in a discussion about her over at a jazz board I frequent. Guess you picked up my vibe.
2084. sakonige - 4/19/2000 4:51:33 AM
Yow, the new video of the Stones' Gimme Shelter from the Bridges to Babylon tour is outstanding. It brings back a flood memories of seeing that show in Vancouver couple of years ago. That was so much fun. Mick Jagger and his voice compared to Paul McCartney must be one of the finest triumphs of evil over good in modern history.
2085. sakonige - 4/19/2000 5:07:57 AM
I know
it's only rock 'n roll
but I like it
like it
yes I do
2086. sakonige - 4/19/2000 5:16:45 AM
It's pretty good for dancing, anyway.
You can't say that for opera.
2087. sakonige - 4/19/2000 5:17:03 AM
2088. DanDillon - 4/19/2000 2:53:40 PM
T.M.L.M.T.B.G.B.
At the corner of Ashland and Foster, luck married chance and fortune was born. Above the Nelson Funeral Home, there is a space where your appetite for the desultory and your craving for the dramatic can be satiated every weekend. And the spirit can do a little celebrating. As Second City, that bastion of sublime irreverence and magnet of vulgar tourism, acknowledges its 40th anniversary this week, little else is
there to say. Besides, Second City is located at North and Wells.
The Neo-Futurarium, here at Ashland and Foster, feeds the soul. It is the home of the adolescent revue "Too Much Light Makes The Baby Go Blind." The soundest cultural parallel I am able to draw to this show would have to be a primeval ritual aboriginal boogie under the fiery firmament around a blazing bonfire. It holds one's senses hostage, compelling the viewer to gawk, weep, drool, flutter, and howl, no matter how much the theatrical purist. It is a show that treats you to thirty plays in sixty minutes. It truly makes your head spin.
That's the goal, anyway. Hung from a clothesline strung above the stage (I'm generous in calling it one) are thirty pieces of paper, numbered sequentially. (About the only orderly thing in the place.) The paper menu you were given upon entering has on it the titles of the thirty plays that the players will attempt to play. The introductions made — piercing, no, crashing through the fourth wall as they happen — the screaming begins. The audience lets roar the numbers they want to see performed, and the loudest voice, I suppose, is granted its wish. The play lasts anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. Curtain. Scream again. The timer is running, you see, and the goal is thirty plays in sixty minutes.
2089. DanDillon - 4/19/2000 2:56:23 PM
But let me go back. We're in a holding pen of sorts, not so much a lobby as an antechamber, all 161 of us, clutching our color-coded tickets that permit us entry into the performance space. Green tickets first, then yellow, and finally blue. Somebody climbs onto a small proscenium. We are given instructions to be nice, advance slowly, and respect the people around us, especially the ticket takers. After many too many minutes (I hold yellow), I make my way up to the fellow with the die. He hands it to me. I roll it. Three. I pay $7. The roll of the die determines how much it's going to cost me to see tonight's performance. You add four to whatever number you roll, and then you pay. Walk forward and turn the corner. Sitting in an old school chair is a sweet looking flaxen-haired soon-to-be performer with a fat pen in her hand and a stack of sticky name tags in front of her. She asks you your name, and you wonder how in the hell she can hear you with those headphones blaring like that. (You'd be able to identify the music if it weren't so distorted.) Despite your better senses you tell her, and she proceeds to write "Homer" or "Copper Penny" or "Kibbles" or "Sweat Shop" or "Fulham" or "Cave Man" or "Suzy Q" or "Random," completely ignoring what you said, stripping you of your average, everyday identity right there on the spot. (You could try yelling it into her ear over the music — Violent Femmes? — but to no avail. You are "Fire Plug.") The name tags go on, and we go in. Showtime.
2090. DanDillon - 4/19/2000 2:56:41 PM
If the show has sold out, and it most always does, one of the performers hops on the phone (everything here is done with great energy) and calls the local pizza joint. Ringing is heard over the sound system. Someone picks up on the other end. "Hello?" "Hi, Pam, this is Diana over at 'Too Much Light.' How're you tonight?" "Oh, I'm great, Diana. What can we do for you?" "When we sell out, we order out!" everyone shouts, as if they've all been here in these exact same seats dozens of times before. "That's right," says Diana. "Let's see," she goes on. "We must have about 160 folks here tonight. We should probably get a large." Laughter. The show has already started. The timer hasn't been set yet, but the theatrics are well under way.
The plays we see are all written by the performers themselves, and they add new ones each week. How many they add depends on the roll of the die at the end of the night. So the menu that you've been intermittently referring to and screaming at changes all the time. You decide to come back in a few weeks for another roll of the die, another name tag, another few tears, and several more morsels of food for thought.
This is experimental theater at its richest, most rewarding. As you leave the space there above the Nelson Funeral Home, you wonder how the middle-aged Second City could ever compete with the sprightly, invigorating, life-affirming "Too Much Light Makes The Baby Go Blind."
2091. ScottLoar - 4/19/2000 3:07:38 PM
Ashland and Foster? I can practically walk there Dan. Do I understand you recommend it?
2092. DanDillon - 4/19/2000 4:28:13 PM
I figured you'd recognize the location. I do recommend it, so long as you feel comfortable among throngs of twenty- and thirtysomethings. (They account for the largest percentage of the Neo-Futurarium's audience.) Go. It's definitely a night out.
2093. ScottLoar - 4/19/2000 4:34:54 PM
Er, uh, Dan. Comfortable among (gasp) twenty and thirty-somethings? Surely I'm not so sclerotic?
2094. ScottLoar - 4/19/2000 4:35:36 PM
Still, should the showings conflict with my Lawrence Welk time...
2095. DanDillon - 4/19/2000 4:47:53 PM
Surely I'm not so sclerotic?
Surely not. Surly not.
2096. theDiva - 4/19/2000 6:28:17 PM
2097. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2000 11:26:37 PM
Diva:
How cool!
I looked up the story from yesterdays NPR interview...the author is David Margolick and his book is entitled Strange Fruit: Billie Holiday, Café Society, and An Early Cry For Civil Rights .
Sounded interesting, to say the least!
2098. theDiva - 4/20/2000 12:17:50 AM
Judith
Thanks! Isn't that cool?!
And yes, the book sounds interesting. I'd like to know more about Barney Josephson, the gentleman who founded Cafe Society.
2099. theDiva - 4/21/2000 8:28:43 PM
Today is the birthdate of Charles Mingus. From The Real Mingus Web:
One of the most important figures in twentieth century American music, Charles Mingus was a virtuoso bass player, accomplished pianist, bandleader and composer. Born on a military base in Nogales, Arizona in 1922 and raised in Watts, California, his earliest musical influences came from the church-- choir and group singing-- and from "hearing Duke Ellington over the radio when [he] was eight years old." He studied double bass and composition in a formal way (five years with H. Rheinshagen, principal bassist of the New York Philharmonic, and compositional techniques with the legendary Lloyd Reese) while absorbing vernacular music from the great jazz masters, first-hand. His early professional experience, in the 40's, found him touring with bands like Louis Armstrong, Kid Ory and Lionel Hampton .
Eventually he settled in New York where he played and recorded with the leading musicians of the 1950's-- Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Bud Powell, Art Tatum and Duke Ellington himself. One of the few bassists to do so, Mingus quickly developed as a leader of musicians. He was also an accomplished pianist who could have made a career playing that instrument. By the mid-50's he had formed his own publishing and recording companies to protect and document his growing repertoire of original music. He also founded the "Jazz Workshop," a group which enabled young composers to have their new works performed in concert and on recordings.
(more)
2100. theDiva - 4/21/2000 8:29:07 PM
Mingus soon found himself at the forefront of the avant-garde. His recordings bear witness to the extraordinarily creative body of work that followed. They include: Pithecanthropus Erectus, The Clown, Tijuana Moods, Mingus Dynasty, Mingus Ah Um, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, Cumbia and Jazz Fusion, Let My Children Hear Music. He recorded over a hundred albums and wrote over three hundred scores.
Although he wrote his first concert piece, "Half-Mast Inhibition," when he was seventeen years old, it was not recorded until twenty years later by a 22-piece orchestra with Gunther Schuller conducting. It was the presentation of "Revelations" which combined jazz and classical idioms, at the 1955 Brandeis Festival of the Creative Arts, that established him as one of the foremost jazz composers of his day.
In 1971 Mingus was awarded the Slee Chair of Music and spent a semester teaching composition at the State University of New York at Buffalo. In the same year his autobiography, Beneath the Underdog, was published by Knopf. In 1972 it appeared in a Bantam paperback and was reissued after his death, in 1980, by Viking/Penguin and again by Pantheon Books, in 1991. In 1972 he also re-signed with Columbia Records. His music was performed frequently by ballet companies, and Alvin Ailey choreographed an hour program called "The Mingus Dances" during a 1972 collaboration with the Robert Joffrey Ballet Company.
(more)
2101. theDiva - 4/21/2000 8:29:57 PM
He toured extensively throughout Europe, Japan, Canada, South America and the United States until the end of 1977 when he was diagnosed as having a rare nerve disease, Amyotropic Lateral Sclerosis. He was confined to a wheelchair, and although he was no longer able to write music on paper or compose at the piano, his last works were sung into a tape recorder.
From the 1960's until his death in 1979 at age 56, Mingus remained in the forefront of American music. When asked to comment on his accomplishments, Mingus said that his abilities as a bassist were the result of hard work but that his talent for composition came from God.
Mingus received grants from the National Endowment for the Arts, The Smithsonian Institute, and the Guggenheim Foundation (two grants). He also received an honorary degree from Brandeis and an award from Yale University. At a memorial following Mingus' death, Steve Schlesinger of the Guggenheim Foundation commented that Mingus was one of the few artists who received two grants and added: "I look forward to the day when we can transcend labels like jazz and acknowledge Charles Mingus as the major American composer that he is." The New Yorker wrote: "For sheer melodic and rhythmic and structural originality, his compositions may equal anything written in western music in the twentieth century."
He died in Mexico on January 5, 1979, and his ashes were scattered in the Ganges River in India. Both New York City and Washington, D.C. honored him posthumously with a "Charles Mingus Day."
(more)
2102. theDiva - 4/21/2000 8:30:17 PM
After his death, the National Endowment for the Arts provided grants for a Mingus foundation called "Let My Children Hear Music" which catalogued all of Mingus' works. The microfilms of these works were then given to the Music Division of the New York Public Library where they are currently available for study and scholarship--a first, for jazz. A repertory band called the Mingus Dynasty and the Mingus Big Band continue to perform his music. Recent biographies of Charles Mingus include Mingus by Brian Priestley and Mingus/Mingus by Janet Coleman and Al Young.
Mingus' masterwork, "Epitaph," a composition which is more than 4000 measures long and which requires two hours to perform, was discovered during the cataloguing process. With the help of a grant from the Ford Foundation, the score and instrumental parts were copied, and the piece itself was premiered by a 30-piece orchestra , conducted by Gunther Schuller, in a concert produced by Sue Mingus at Alice Tully Hall on June 3, 1989, ten years after Mingus' death.
The New Yorker wrote that "Epitaph" represents the first advance in jazz composition since Duke Ellington's "Black, Brown, and Beige," which was written in 1943. The New York Times said it ranked with the "most memorable jazz events of the decade." Convinced that it would never be performed in his lifetime, Mingus called his work "Epitaph;" declaring that he wrote it "for my tombstone."
The Library of Congress has acquired the entire collection of Mingus musical scores and memorabilia, a first for American jazz composition.
(end)
2103. theDiva - 4/21/2000 8:31:11 PM
Thank you, Sir Charles. Rest in peace.
2104. mmmWaffles - 4/21/2000 8:38:39 PM
That was interesting, Diva. Do you have any specific recommendations of Mingus' recordings?
2105. theDiva - 4/21/2000 8:42:48 PM
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed.
For starters, Mingus Ah Um and Blues and Roots. Also, check out his work with Duke Ellington and Max Roach on Money Jungle and Roach, Diz, Bird, and Bud on The Quintet: Jazz at Massey Hall.
2106. mmmWaffles - 4/21/2000 9:00:21 PM
)?1
2107. mmmWaffles - 4/21/2000 9:02:09 PM
That was weird ... I hit check for dust and my whole message went away.
Anyway, Diva, thanks again. I think one of my roommates had that "Massey Hall" CD (I think it was a CD club selection, which would explain it). I didn't realize Charles Mingus was on that. Any of his compositions or just his playing?
2108. theDiva - 4/21/2000 10:49:13 PM
Didn't mean to run off like that, sorry.
None of his compositions are on that recording. Great stuff, though, and it's a fine example of bebop at its best, what Nat Hentoff refers to as 'The Cabinet Level Conference'.
2109. theDiva - 4/25/2000 3:06:26 PM
Yesterday was the birthdate of the magnificent Ella Fitzgerald, surely one of the finest vocalists who ever lived.
Here is a marvelous tribute page, complete with bio, charming personal reflections, and wav files. I recommend highly that you check it out.
2110. ChristinO - 4/26/2000 12:16:44 AM
While visiting my grandmother in Dallas this past weekend I picked up some old vinyl. I can't remember what all of it was at the moment but one is a Charles Mingus.
Can anybody tell me anything about him?
My greatest find was what I think may be the first album by Uncle Walt's Band. This was the first band that my uncle ever managed and Walter Hyatt is gone now. David Ball however is doing great. It's kind of cool to think about the bar they played in when I was such a little kid.
2111. joezan - 4/26/2000 6:19:39 AM
A friend of mine who sells CDs on the internet gave me an old Wishbone Ash CD today, The King Shall Come.
Holy S**T!
I'd forgotten how ponderously, pompously presumptuous - yet masterfully blistering '70s guitar rock could be. I swear, I couldn't run any other programs on my computer with that thing playing.
2112. EricCartman - 4/26/2000 10:15:52 AM
Wishbone Ash had some pretty cool twin-guitar harmonies. The harmonized guitars were a big influence on later English hard-rock bands like Thin Lizzy and Iron Maiden. Argus is another good WA album.
2113. joezan - 4/26/2000 12:59:12 PM
Yea - they were very inventive, and their influence on later bands is undeniable. But with the opening chords (I hadn't listened to the album in probably 25 years), I got this weird pot flashback or something. All that singing about the prophets of old...the judgment day, etc. It was all so profound, heard through a haze of pot smoke on an 8-track in your friend's basement bedroom.
Now, it sounds like Jesus Christ, Superstar meets Spinal Tap.
2114. theDiva - 4/26/2000 2:17:03 PM
Christin
Are you joking? Start at my post#2099....last Saturday was Mingus' birthday.
2115. JudithAtHome - 4/26/2000 6:16:14 PM
David Merrick, RIP
2116. msgreer - 4/26/2000 8:29:29 PM
JJ
Check out the slow thread, RIP Health. I'm trying to find you. My pc has been off for many months but it is open now. How are you?
2117. JudithAtHome - 4/28/2000 7:20:51 PM
I'm listening to a rightous rendition of "Whang Dang Doodle" on NPR, of all places. This is amazing...it is someone called CoCo Taylor and I would've sworn it was a man. I'd have been dead wrong.
2118. JudithAtHome - 4/28/2000 7:23:53 PM
Excuse me...that is KoKo Taylor and the Blues Machine and she has a new album coming out June 1...hey, I'm there!
2119. uzmakk - 4/28/2000 7:53:25 PM
Farts zan Music
2120. uzmakk - 4/28/2000 7:54:38 PM
Farts sans Music
2121. joezan - 4/29/2000 4:37:13 AM
Judith:
I LOVE that song!
Ever heard Savoy Brown's version, from Street Corner Talkin'?
2122. CalGal - 4/29/2000 1:10:24 PM
A while back I mentioned LiquidAudio, a company that enables you to buy and download songs over the Internet. JJ mentioned their major competitor, MP3, as his favorite--they are less proprietary.
Apparently, this lack of propriety is a problem. MP3.com gets spanked:
MP3.com rolled the dice and lost. Friday a federal district court judge ruled against the online music pioneer, finding it guilty of copyright infringement.
The case was brought on behalf of the five major recording labels by their trade group, the Recording Industry Association of America. The RIAA had asked for a summary judgment in the case; Judge Jed Rakoff, of the Southern District of New York, in a three-sentence release, agreed. He said no trial was needed to determine the facts of the case. His full written statement will be released in two weeks.
Damages could be in the billions, depending on what price tag the judge puts on each copy of the CD made.
Their stock dropped to 6. LiquidAudio's stock doubled--their download format is much more secure than MP3. That being the opposite of "less proprietary", of course--which suddenly became a big advantage.
2123. sakonige - 5/3/2000 12:12:48 AM
Music suggestions for a 40th birthday weekend?
2124. sakonige - 5/3/2000 12:20:53 AM
Red Hot Chili Peppers Californication is on the list.
2125. ChristinO - 5/3/2000 12:24:05 AM
Diva,
Ulp! Wow, talk about timing. I didn't read back at all and realized that you posted about Mingus just above my announcement. Big Duh! Thanks! I'll go read.
2126. theDiva - 5/3/2000 4:40:05 PM
RIP Jonah Jones
Jonah Jones, 90, a Grammy award-winning jazz trumpet player who began his career on a Mississippi riverboat, rose to stardom playing with Cab Calloway and later developed a muted style that translated into some of the biggest-selling records on the pop charts, died in New York on April 30. The cause of death was not reported.
Born Robert Elliott Jones in Louisville, he performed as a young man with Jimmie Lunceford, Stuff Smith, McKinney's Cotton Pickers, Benny Carter, Fletcher Henderson and Lil Armstrong, the wife of Louis Armstrong. His energetic solos with Smith's Onyx Club band in the late 1930s earned him widespread attention. He joined Calloway's orchestra in 1941 and stayed with him for 11 years.
Mr. Jones went on to play Dixieland with Earl Hines and made a European tour in 1954. But the Big Band sound had waned, and he came back to the United States to an uncertain future and considered abandoning music. The next year, a job that he thought would be his last engagement lead to new fame with a much wider audience.
He formed a quartet to play for a brief stint at the Embers Club in New York. This time, he played standards and show tunes in a soft, muted and uncomplicated way. It was the kind of music described today as "easy listening," and it proved popular. In fact, the Embers management insisted that he keep the mutes in his horn and stick to the style.
The club became his home base for the next decade, and he made hundreds of records, winning a Grammy in 1959 for the album "I Dig Chicks." His versions of show tunes won over new audiences, and he sold 1 million copies of his versions of "On the Street Where You Live" and "Baubles, Bangles and Beads." He also worked on Fred Astaire's television series and toured the world with the quartet. He continued performing well into the 1990s
Survivors include three children and two grandchildren.
© 2000 The Washington Post Company
2127. JJBiener - 5/7/2000 5:27:01 PM
Welcome to another episode of As The Band Turns. The ongoing saga exploring the trials and tribulations of a bunch of old farts who get together to play music. In this episode a face from the past returns in a surprising role.
Last year we had a guitar player (Doug) who was with the band for a few months. He departed the band in blaze abuse and a hail of insults. We never expected to hear from him again. For some reason, Lee, our bass player, kept in contact with him. This probably contributed to his own meltdown a few weeks ago.
Since he left the band, Doug has put together a portable recording studio. Or at least what passes for one. Through various negotiations he brought it to our practice Friday night to record us. He first tried to record to ADAT, but the distortion made the tape unusable. He then mixed us live to stereo analog tape. Surprisingly, it sounded good. Much better than anything we have been able to do to date. He is going to burn some CDs and make some demo tapes for us to pass out to clubs in the area. I will post some of the recordings to our web site and link them here for your enjoyment.
BTW, don't go looking for the web site yet, it is not yet operational.
Tune in again for the next episode of As The Band Turns.
2128. PelleNilsson - 5/7/2000 8:31:54 PM
JJ
I missed the part when Lee had his meltdown.
2129. JJBiener - 5/8/2000 4:33:32 PM
Pelle - The meltdown was a few weeks ago. I don't remember if I posted the description here or in the Cafe.
2130. PsychProf - 5/8/2000 5:59:27 PM
BROADWAY CD REVIEW BY MY BUDDY AARON VILLA
2131. theDiva - 5/9/2000 8:57:33 PM
GlendaJean, thanks for the tip.
New York Times, May 10, 2000
Bird Lives: Parker's Still in the Groove
By DAVID FIRESTONE
ADISON, Ga. -- The hayloft on the flat, rich Georgia field here was swept away in 1987, transformed like so much of the state into a manufacturing plant with flagpoles, loading docks and endless blank walls. But when Paul W. Reid III takes a fragile acetate disc and puts it on a specially made turntable, a small room in the factory becomes the Harry Smith Studios across from Carnegie Hall on a September day in 1948.
This was the actual disc that was used to record Charlie Parker that particular day, before the use of magnetic recording tape. Parker, at the height of his abilities, was playing "Parker's Mood" with Miles Davis, John Lewis, Curly Russell and Max Roach, and the fidelity of the ancient recording medium is astonishing. The group seems to be in the room, working on one of five takes of the now-classic slow blues they would attempt that day. The struggle to get it just right seems palpable.
But the evocative powers of the old 16-inch disc are even more remarkable considering the journey that it and almost 3,000 others have taken to reach this small Southern town, where Mr. Reid and his colleagues at what is now the Denon Digital plant are preparing a CD package of Parker's early studio years.
Savoy, the label that recorded these Parker sessions, was founded in Newark in 1942 by a cranky electronics salesman named Herman Lubinsky, and the company bought other labels or changed hands countless times. Its huge archive of acetates and tapes -- one of the finest documents of the bebop era -- has repeatedly moved to warehouses around the country. In 1991, when Savoy was acquired by the Japanese Denon label, the tapes and acetates were loaded on a 747 and sent to Tokyo.
(continued)
2132. theDiva - 5/9/2000 8:57:59 PM
But in 1997, after a Japanese release of some of the Savoy material on CD, Denon decided the archive was better off in its home country. The company wanted to release a series of remastered compilations on CD, using American producers and engineers, and it chose its CD pressing plant, built here in Madison in 1987, as the headquarters for the project.
"It makes sense from a cost standpoint," said Dan Marx, Savoy's director of artists and repertory and the project manager for the series. "They own the plant, so they don't have to rent out extra space. We've got the Rolls-Royce of tape machines and equipment here, and with the Internet and the airport not far away it doesn't really matter where you are."
And so the original recordings of seminal figures like Lester Young, Dizzy Gillespie and Erroll Garner were shipped here, 50 miles east of Atlanta, to a town of 3,500 better known for its pristine collection of antebellum homes and the corporate headquarters of the Pennington Seed Company and Applebee's Restaurants.
Denon has built a climate-controlled room in the back of the plant to house the long ranks of acetate discs in their white cardboard boxes, along with priceless jazz relics like a telegram from Lubinsky to Parker ordering him to show up at a recording session on Nov. 26, 1945.
(continued)
2133. theDiva - 5/9/2000 8:59:31 PM
Orrin Keepnews, a venerable jazz producer who is supervising the series, said he was accustomed to hitting the clubs and favorite restaurants when he traveled from his home in San Francisco to New York to produce a new recording. Traveling to Madison several times a year, however, has proved a bit different.
"It's a charming town, but it's not exactly a bustling center of night life," he said. "So my whole work ethic has changed. I work late, work weekends. There's not much else to do. But there is a good pizza restaurant there."
Mr. Keepnews and Mr. Marx have kept busy digging through the archives, occasionally turning up unreleased recordings of sessions with Dexter Gordon, John Lee Hooker or the singer Little Jimmy Scott. Mr. Marx discovered in the files that a sterling recording of Marian McPartland live at the Hickory House in 1953 was made by a young Rudy Van Gelder, jazz's most distinguished engineer, at the dawn of his career. The label also released a rarely heard session with John Coltrane and the nearly forgotten trumpeter Wilbur Harden.
All of the Parker material has been released several times before, but the eight-CD compilation being prepared for reissue this fall will also include his work for the Dial label, bringing together nearly all of his early studio work in one package.
"It's basically the complete work of Charlie Parker in the studio before Norman Granz got his hands on him," said Mr. Keepnews, referring to the impresario of the Verve label, who recorded Parker through 1954. "No one's ever put it in one place before. And I think the modern technology makes it sound better than previous reissues, although I'm taking my life in my hands saying that."
(continued)
2134. theDiva - 5/9/2000 9:00:01 PM
At the risk of annoying a few audiophile purists, the new releases take advantage of several new devices, made by Cedar Audio and Sonic Solutions, intended to remove the pops and clicks and other surface noises on the old acetates and tapes without affecting the music. The earlier Japanese Denon releases, by contrast, were straight from the acetates, with no technological improvements to the sound.
Mr. Reid, a Madison native who studied for several years with acetate experts learning new techniques for transfer to digital recording, has spent hours with each disc, washing out the decades of grime and mold and studying their grooves to decide which stylus would bring out the best sound.
"The way I look at it, they didn't record scratches," said Mr. Reid, with the only drawl of the reissue team. (Mr. Marx moved to Atlanta from New Jersey.) "There's a lot you can do nowadays to improve the sound.
(continued)
2135. theDiva - 5/9/2000 9:00:28 PM
"But we also believe that less is more when it comes to restoration. It's a fine line, and you want to err on the side of keeping the music as close as possible to the original."
Mr. Reid, a blues guitarist in his spare time, sometimes uses a note from his electric guitar to make sure the discs are spinning at the right speed, since they were not always reliably recorded. If a musician has stepped too far from the microphone on the original recording, he will bring up the volume on the master, and he keeps a hand on the Cedar machine to turn down the noise reduction if it seems to be interfering with the presence of the music. Listeners will have to decide for themselves whether to trust the judgments.
"There's an aliveness on the old acetates that you just don't get from tape," Mr. Keepnews said. "So you don't want to do a disservice to that by letting the technical advances run away and rule you. That's why I was so surprised to find a local Georgia boy who turned out to be a damn good mastering engineer. We gave the South a shot, and it paid off."
(end)
2136. PelleNilsson - 5/14/2000 10:34:27 PM
Bob Dylan is in Stockholm for a couple of days to receive the Polar Prize which is a kind of Nobel for music at $150,000. It is awarded each year to one representative of popular music and one of classical music. Dylan's co-winner is the violinist Isaac Stern.
2137. KuligintheHooligan - 5/15/2000 8:55:07 PM
Diva,
Every so often I want to ask you this question and then just forget. This has happened for about two years now!
Anyway, do you like Little Feat? On their CD "Let it Roll" is a song entitled "Changin' Luck." I really love that song.
Well, that's all I have wanted to say to you for about two years now.
2138. theDiva - 5/15/2000 8:57:05 PM
ha!
Can't say as I'm familiar with them. Sort of anticlimactic, huh?
2139. ChristinO - 5/15/2000 9:08:29 PM
"If you'll be my Dixie Chicken
I'll be your Tennessee lamb
And we can walk together
Down in Dixieland
Down in Dixieland"
Vic,
Ever listen to any of Lowell George's solo stuff? "Thanks I'll Eat It Here" is one of my favorite albums. Great cover of Can't Stand the Rain and Ricki Lee Jones Easy Money
Other great tracks on it are Honest Man, Two Trains and a duet with Emmylou Harris called Heartache
2140. ChristinO - 5/15/2000 9:44:36 PM
Vic,
You also might like The Subdudes who are heavily influenced by both Little Feat and the Allman Brothers Band. They've got some nice little tunes.
2141. arkymalarky - 5/15/2000 11:56:07 PM
I love Little Feat, but I've never heard that CD. I love Waiting for Columbus.
The more I read of you lately, Vic, the more it chips away at the mental image I've developed of you over the years. And no, that's not an invitation for you to describe your mental image of me. It's enough to know you thought I was a man until a few months ago.(g)
2142. EricCartman - 5/16/2000 6:08:12 AM
Two things one might glean from this article:
2143. KuligintheHooligan - 5/16/2000 8:14:48 PM
Deev, I thought you liked Little Feat. I'm not sure where I got that idea. Obviously I thought I read it here or in the F---, but I guess not. They seem at least to me to have some jazzy feel at times so maybe I just assumed you knew of them.
ChristinO, thanks for the recommendations. Thanks for the wonders of Amazon.com, even in Namibia I can get those artists now! From your description, the Subdudes sound interesting.
arky, "Let it Roll" was I believe Little Feat's biggest success, so I'm surprised you never heard of it. And as for my mental image of you --- big burly guy, Popeye the Sailor man forearms,....
oh, never mind.
2144. KuligintheHooligan - 5/16/2000 8:19:00 PM
Eric, I read the article you hotlinked. I would never have guessed that Mariah Carey sold more music than any female vocalist in the century. I would have opted for Madonna or maybe Whitney Houston (who is am absolute babe!), but Carey would never have come to mind.
Personally, despite all his quirks and wierdness, I like Michael Jackson, at least his "Thriller" stuff and before (when he was still black).
Speaking of which, Jackson came to Namibia about 2+ years ago. He spoke about saving the "children of the universe" (um, Michael, what other planets have you visited lately?) and that he was so happy to be at the "cradle of humanity" (um, Michael, that's about 3000+ miles NE of here). Then the rumor circulated that it wasn't even Michael that came, but rather a double. Regardless, though, I like him.
2145. theDiva - 5/16/2000 8:23:58 PM
well, I, for one, am tired of all these poseurs co-opting the Diva title. The nerve.
Hoolio, sorry to burst yer bubble. I have little feet, if that helps.
2146. KuligintheHooligan - 5/16/2000 8:27:35 PM
you know what they say, little feet, little heart.... :-)
arky, if it will help to rebuild the bad image you have of me, my favorite musical group is Rush.
2147. theDiva - 5/16/2000 8:28:03 PM
Hey! I'm HARD-hearted, and donchoo fergit it!
2148. KuligintheHooligan - 5/16/2000 8:34:49 PM
Actually, my wife has little feet, about size 5. I really love little feet.
2149. theDiva - 5/16/2000 8:38:01 PM
Too Much Information.
2150. KuligintheHooligan - 5/16/2000 8:41:22 PM
sorry
2151. theDiva - 5/16/2000 9:04:31 PM
HAW!
2152. EricCartman - 5/16/2000 10:29:05 PM
Kuligin Message # 2144:
There are some good songs on Thriller, but not enough to support the god-awful amount of hype that went with it. For me, that outweighed whatever good was there. I used to love Jackson 5 when I was a kid, and I still like their stuff, but the last good Michael album, imho, was Off the Wall. Jackson himself gives me the creeps, and has for years, whether or not the child molestation charges are true. There is just something weird about a 40-year-old man who would rather hang out with 12-year-old boys than women. The goofy affectations, the face masks and surgical gloves, sure don't help. Very Howard Hughes kind of vibe there.
Message # 2146:
....my favorite musical group is Rush.
Good man! I'm not as into them as I was back in the day, but they're still one of my very favorites. I learned pretty much everything up through Signals on guitar and bass (and a few on drums). I think they've got an amazing amount of integrity, especially the way the music biz is run these days. They are the little band that could -- they don't expand their audience, it's the same million or so people that buy their albums every time, but they keep plugging away, doing their own thing. That is unusual in the biz; most fans get bored and move on after two or three albums. I keep hearing rumors that they will be breaking up soon; apparently Neil Peart's wife & daughter were killed in a car crash or something a couple years ago.
You & I were talking about Tesla a while back, and I forgot to mention a small, mildly interesting factoid -- I am in the Love Song video, which hit #1 about 10 years ago. Just split-second stuff in a couple of crowd shots, still....that grants me OG status, I believe.(g)
2153. arkymalarky - 5/17/2000 2:24:40 AM
Kool,
My knowledge of Little Feat is from a network of old friends around here, so I'm not that familiar with what was most popular, but I really like the Columbus album.
And regarding Message # 2143 all my arms have in common with Popeye's is the anchor tattoo.
2154. KuligintheHooligan - 5/17/2000 5:11:45 PM
Eric, "Shake Your Body Down to the Ground" was always one of my favorite early Jackson hits. I think it is incredible to look at his picture on the cover of that album, "Off the Wall," then to see him today. Still, I think the guy is a great musical talent, albeit a real freak-o-nature.
As for Rush, I have loved them since college. Saw them in Pittsburgh, the best concert I have ever been too. And that was back in 1986. Since then they have continued to produce some great music. With me here in Namibia I have:
Power Windows
Presto
Roll the Bones
Grace Under Pressure
Signals
Chronicles (2 discs)
I think the Peart is an incredible talent. His lyrics always amaze me, and I can't understand how he so consistently writes great songs. Then, of course, he does do too badly poundin' on dem drums!
I also heard about his wife and daughter killed in a car wreck, during my time back in the States last year (or maybe late 1998). I'm not sure when their last album has come out, but I don't believe the group has produced anything since the accident.
In a Tesla video? Kewl!
2155. KuligintheHooligan - 5/17/2000 5:13:43 PM
arky, I figured about the tattoo! :-)
2156. EricCartman - 5/17/2000 5:53:21 PM
Kuligin:
The first time I saw Rush was on that same '86 Power Windows tour. Since then I've seen them on the Presto and latest (last?) Test For Echo tour in '96. Their live shows are spectacular, of course, but one thing I noticed in the '96 show was that they were tuned down to D. This indicates that Geddy Lee's voice may be wearing out (which is understandable). It was an early show in that tour, though, so he may have just been letting his voice take a while to get broken in on tour.
Shortly after Jackie and Selena Peart were killed, Rush did release a 3-disc live album, Different Stages. The first two discs were culled from that Test For Echo tour, the third from a show in London on the Farewell to Kings tour back in '77. If you can find it in Namibia, it's worth it. (Then again, I suppose you can always order from Amazon.)
Other than that, the only action from any of them is Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson appearing on the South Park soundtrack album, doing a straight rendition of O Canada. Lifeson's '96 solo experiment didn't do so great, so I don't know if he'll try that again.
2157. Jenerator - 5/17/2000 6:38:10 PM
That's really sad about Peart's family being killed.
Eric,
I wish I had a copy of the video you're in handy. Don't laugh but I'm in a Poison video!;-)
2158. EricCartman - 5/17/2000 10:52:03 PM
Jen:
I too wish I had a copy of the video I'm in....I've only seen it twice, years ago. But it was a pretty cool surprise, suddenly seeing myself on MTV.
Which Poison video are you in? Is it also a crowd shot or what?
2159. Jenerator - 5/18/2000 2:19:13 PM
It's from "I Won't Forget You" filmed live at the Cotton Bowl (Monsters of Rock/Texas Jam), I'm about fifth row. The close up shows me in a blue tank-top and white sunglasses. Very 80s! I used to wait for the Mtv Rock-n-Roll countdown at 5pm to watch the video and catch my few seconds of fame. Ha!
2160. KuligintheHooligan - 5/18/2000 9:40:58 PM
What??? That was YOU?? I remember drooling over "that babe in the tank top!"
I'll never think of Poison the same way again! :-)
2161. iiibbb - 5/20/2000 5:56:32 AM
www.wncw.org is my favorite radio station
2162. theDiva - 5/21/2000 6:47:45 PM
RIP, Jean-Pierre Rampal
2163. theDiva - 5/23/2000 8:05:46 PM
This is exciting!
Marsalis Plans First Jazz Hall
By The Associated Press
NEW YORK (AP) -- Wynton Marsalis touted plans Tuesday for the world's first concert halls built especially for jazz, in a 100,000-square-foot complex with a view of Central Park.
``Everything is going to be integrated: the relationship between one space and another, the relationship between the audience and the musicians will be one fluid motion because that's how our music is,'' Marsalis said of the $103 million jazz center to be built at Columbus Circle. Marsalis will be artistic director.
The new complex is scheduled to open in 2003. It will include a 1,100-seat theater and a 600-seat performance atrium with a dance floor and tables. Musicians will perform in front of a 50-foot window overlooking the park from six floors up.
In addition, a 140-seat jazz cafe is planned, along with a jazz Hall of Fame, two rehearsal studios and a classroom.
The complex, on the site of the New York Coliseum now being razed, also is to house the headquarters of AOL-Time Warner, stores, condominiums, a garage and a hotel.
2164. marjoribanks - 5/23/2000 8:12:32 PM
600 seats? 1100 seats? I'll take Small's and the Lennox Lounge, thank you very much.
2165. theDiva - 5/23/2000 8:13:56 PM
I like smaller venues, too. But a dance floor! And this kind of money being spent on jazz! I'm tickled.
2166. JJBiener - 5/23/2000 8:20:39 PM
Diva - I would love to get a gig there. It sounds like a blast.
2167. theDiva - 5/23/2000 8:21:09 PM
Practice, son. Practice.
2168. janjon - 5/23/2000 8:57:35 PM
The 50 foot windows six stories up overlooking the park sound nice(well, it will be a slice of a view, what with one of the more ugly Trump buildings (the former Gulf & Western tower now gussied up) hogging the left hand side). By the way, even leaving aside the announced completion date, I wouldn't hold my breath on this one coming together. That many seats doesn't seem feasible.
2169. theDiva - 5/23/2000 9:01:40 PM
In New York? At Lincoln Center?
2170. theDiva - 5/23/2000 9:05:24 PM
Here is more.
2171. janjon - 5/23/2000 9:07:28 PM
No, not Lincoln Center. About seven blocks away at the site of the old New York Colisseum which is on Columbus Circle.
2172. theDiva - 5/23/2000 9:10:32 PM
Yes, I know the area, I worked in the neighborhood many years ago.
And, apparently someone thinks it's feasible. Did you catch the list of donors and the coin they've raised? It's astounding.
2173. janjon - 5/23/2000 9:47:11 PM
Well, yes, once I saw that it already is being named the Frederick P. Rose etc. (as in the family that gave the $ to redo the main hall of the New York Public Library) and that it is entitled Jazz at Lincoln Center, I thought that that was yet another so-called astute prediction that wasn't.
Still can't quite figure out how it will have panoramic views of the Park from six stories up in that location.
2174. KuligintheHooligan - 5/23/2000 10:57:48 PM
Namibian radio is interesting to say the least. But the songs have become more "Western" in many respects. There is a station that is sorta top forties, but not really. I am never sure, though, if the song is really new or came out a while ago and is just now getting played here. Anyway, there is one song I really like and they never say who the artist is, so perhaps someone could help me.
I think the title of the song is "Super Models" and one line is something like, "I don't know any personally... but I'm tired of being compared to them."
Anybody know the artist?
2175. marjoribanks - 5/23/2000 11:26:53 PM
Hooligan,
I think it's RuPaul.
2176. KuligintheHooligan - 5/23/2000 11:48:26 PM
Thanks marjoribanks. Seems I am quite out of touch. Never heard that group's name before. Really, not even sure that is a group's name or an individual. The song I am referring to has a female lead for vocals.
2177. EricCartman - 5/23/2000 11:56:32 PM
Kuligin:
RuPaul isn't a group -- he's a six-and-a-half foot tall transvestite. I think he had his own talk show on VH1 for a while.
2178. Cellar Door - 5/24/2000 12:10:50 AM
And he's also available in non-transvestite form.
2179. JJBiener - 5/24/2000 5:36:01 PM
He comes with the patented kung fu grip. Malibu Fun House sold separately.
2180. TheWizardofWhimsy - 5/24/2000 5:54:30 PM
...as opposed to the Republican version which comes with a bugging kit...
2181. JudithAtHome - 5/24/2000 6:00:36 PM
...and a wardrobe of 3x hostess gowns for J Eddie. Guess the ankle strap heels are sold seperately.
2182. Uzmakk - 5/24/2000 7:04:04 PM
Igor showed up with Little Criminals yesterday. We listen while we work. The windows are all open, breezey and sunny. Life is hard.
2183. Jenerator - 5/24/2000 9:04:06 PM
"You better work!"
2184. Uzmakk - 5/24/2000 9:53:14 PM
Don't worry, Jenerator, we, do work. We also took a great walk today though.
2185. theDiva - 5/25/2000 3:32:42 PM
Today is Miles Davis' birthday. Pop in 'Kind of Blue' and dig it.
2186. JJBiener - 5/25/2000 5:34:49 PM
Happy Birthday, Miles.
Kind of Blue is in the player and I am groovin' to Miles, Evans, Coltrane, Adderly et al. Great suggestion, Diva. My day is doing better already.
2187. theDiva - 5/25/2000 5:38:24 PM
stick with me, kid.
2188. JJBiener - 5/25/2000 6:25:59 PM
Diva - I'll stick with you wherever you lead.
2189. Cellar Door - 5/25/2000 7:19:39 PM
Now here's an interesting article. Note how Lehrer rose, well under the radar screens of mass media culture. He did it "his way," got the acclaim he so richly deserved, and knew when to get off. A lesson for us all. AND a question: Would it be possible for a similarly talented performer to do the same today?
2190. Uzmakk - 5/25/2000 7:35:48 PM
On Listening to the Buena Vista Social Club
Igor likes that complex rhythm,
Reminds me of Catholicism.
2191. Uzmakk - 5/25/2000 7:40:10 PM
or, perhaps
Man, I like that complex rhythm,
reminds me of Catholocism.
2192. Uzmakk - 5/25/2000 7:40:56 PM
Oh.......God bless the Pope, btw.
2193. Uzmakk - 5/25/2000 7:42:09 PM
Catholicism is misspelled. It is not a significant Uzmakkian misspelling.
2194. Cellar Door - 5/25/2000 8:51:28 PM
WHAT'S WITH THIS BLESSING THE POPE BIT?
2195. theDiva - 5/25/2000 8:53:03 PM
I'm a bit curious myself. I mean, everyone needs blessings and all, but these outbursts....
2196. Cellar Door - 5/25/2000 8:58:35 PM
Why would the Pope need blessing? Isn't he supposed to be the embodiment of the blessed state?
2197. theDiva - 5/25/2000 9:10:40 PM
not really. Everyone needs blessings, and he'd prolly be the first one to admit he needs 'em as much (or more than) anyone.
2198. Cellar Door - 5/25/2000 9:12:30 PM
He's so insecure.
Just like his God.
2199. theDiva - 5/25/2000 9:17:17 PM
oh, now......
2200. Uzmakk - 5/25/2000 9:26:54 PM
God, would I like a good refreshment about now.
2201. Uzmakk - 5/28/2000 12:37:47 AM
The blessing the Pope has to do with the fact that I read G.K. Chesterton's The Everlasting Man recently and that I was drunk as a skunk on Friday.
2202. Uzmakk - 5/28/2000 12:38:22 AM
No disrespect intended whatsoever.
2203. arkymalarky - 5/28/2000 1:24:24 AM
"I was drunk as a skunk on Friday."
Hahaha! Really? I didn't notice. I thought you were just experimenting with alternative spellings of arky and malarky and that your other tidbits of wisdom sprinkled around were too far over my head for me to grasp them.
2204. Uzmakk - 5/28/2000 2:07:15 AM
It is difficult to distinquish my most profound thought from the rantings of a habitual drunk.
2205. JudithAtHome - 5/31/2000 2:36:36 PM
Tito Puenté....RIP
Tex Beneke....RIP
2206. theDiva - 5/31/2000 3:10:18 PM
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it ain't so, Tito!!!!!
2207. rubberducky7 - 5/31/2000 3:13:22 PM
oh, in case i didn't mention it, i'm sooo tickled that pop-killing bitch ain't number one no more. a mere week and Christina Spears is toppled!
2208. JudithAtHome - 5/31/2000 3:28:47 PM
Diva:
Yep, this morning.....
2209. theDiva - 5/31/2000 3:30:00 PM
I can't stand it.
2210. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 4:36:55 PM
Duck,
Emimem is the first pop entertainer who's gotten my attention in a long time. Having a teen who owns the car radio, I hope the toppling of the boy and girl pop stars is a growing trend, though mine does intensely despise Brittney Spears to the point of writing an insulting song about her to one of her melodies. It bugs Mose no end that all the boys her age think BS is hot.
2211. theDiva - 5/31/2000 4:44:46 PM
Gracie can't stand her, either. Aren't you glad we have such brilliant daughters?
2212. rubberducky7 - 5/31/2000 4:58:06 PM
i agree arky (and deev), but at least Britney Aguilera is entertaining. i almost fell outta my chair when i saw her say she thought this 2nd album is geared towards more of an "adult" audience. she is just a vapid hooter bag, apparently.
as for Emimem, i don't really like rap at all ... but he's seriously cute ... so who cares ;)
2213. theDiva - 5/31/2000 4:59:16 PM
I love this....she says she's 'kinda freaked out' when she hears that older men fantasize about her. Go to the bank, take out some money, and buy a clue.
2214. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:01:32 PM
Well, I have to add the disclaimer that mine loves N-Sync.
Bragging musical notes, though--She was invited to be in jazz band next year (her first year to be in the high school building). She's first chair sax in jr high, but had to pick between choir (where she won second chair in All-Region this year) and jazz band, which is invitation-only, for next year. Her choir teacher's retirement made the decision a lot easier.
2215. theDiva - 5/31/2000 5:04:48 PM
how cool! tenor, alto or soprano?
2216. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:05:04 PM
She'd better enjoy it while it lasts. And I must say not one of them is 1/10th as grating as All-Anus Morisette or dipso whatsername who was so popular for awhile...can't think of it...the most boring singer of the 20th century. I'll remember it later. I'm glad to hear them on the radio less.
Oh yeah, Cheryl Crow.
2217. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:05:45 PM
alto. She played bari in jr high jazz band one year and hated it. she's afraid the sr bari player will try to stick her with it in hs.
2218. theDiva - 5/31/2000 5:05:59 PM
dull beyond comprehension.
2219. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:06:32 PM
Sorry I went into my email-Bob mode in 2217.
2220. theDiva - 5/31/2000 5:07:16 PM
ooh! Tell her to check out Johnny Hodges, Cannonball Adderley and Charlie Parker for different flavors on alto. Bless her heart, I had no idea. That is so great.
2221. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:07:47 PM
I could tune out the dull if it weren't for the insanely stupid lyrics. I know it's pop music, but they're so lame I can't ignore them. My most-hated is "he was high on intellectualism." What kind of idiocy is that?
2222. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:09:50 PM
Thanks, Diva, I'll sure tell her. Now that school's out we need to head to the mall and pick up some music. She's also wanting to start back into piano, but I'm reluctant since she quit. That was her first love, though, and she's pretty good at it. I told her we'd see how she handles everything else. She's going to be a very busy next year.
2223. arkymalarky - 5/31/2000 5:10:22 PM
Interesting overlapping conversation we have going here.
2224. theDiva - 5/31/2000 5:15:21 PM
multitasking is a particular strength of mothers.
Try Nancy Wilson/Cannonball Adderley; any early Ellington will feature Hodges; and for Bird, his Best on Verve.
2225. marjoribanks - 5/31/2000 5:16:29 PM
Frankly, I have no idea why the Buena Vista Social Club is so wildly popular as an album. The movie was wonderful, life affirming, charming - all those things. The music is distinctly not top-drawer Cuban music, however. I find the album quite banal, all in all.
Now, if you want some really great Cuban albums check out Ruben Gonzalez (the pianist in BVSC) in his solo effort, or anything by Los Van Van, or maybe some old Benny More albums, or even one of the compilations put together by David Byrne's record label.
2226. theDiva - 5/31/2000 5:45:54 PM
two words - Chucho Valdes
2227. marjoribanks - 5/31/2000 5:59:01 PM
Yeah, Irakere's albums are mostly staggeringly good too.
2228. Fraaankster - 6/1/2000 8:30:44 AM
Ace,
... I'm coming over here because Cal might chew my ass out if I continue this discussion there. Who needs that ? ;-)
Wow man, talk about eclectic tastes !? I thought I was the only one still hooked on those old Herb Alpert tunes. I have about six of his CD's, and just about every album he ever put out that I have been able to find in good condition at the nearby Salvation Army store.
For what it's worth, here's just a sampling of what I have in my CD collection nearby:
Duran Duran ( Almost all of them...Should I admit this ? )
The Jam
The Damn
Engelbert Humperdinck
Al Green
Jack Jones
Talking Heads
The Beatles
The Stylistics
New Order
The Stranglers
Fleetwood Mac
Bobby Goldsboro
Love Spit Love
Matt Munro
Ultravox
China Crisis
The Brothers Johnson
The Rolling Stones
Sly and the Family Stone
Tears for Fears
Talk Talk
Diana Ross and the Supremes
The Temptations
Beach Boys
Frank Sinatra ( You were expecting Nancy ?)
Hermans Hermits
The Psychedelic Furs
Slim Whitman
The Crystals
U2
Con't.
2229. Fraaankster - 6/1/2000 8:31:43 AM
Con't...
The Power Station
The Jacksons
Spandau Ballet
Sergio Mendes and Brasil '66 ( I'm going to see them in two months)
OMD
Tommy James and the Shondells ( What the hell is a "Shondell"?)
Three Dog Night
Nat King Cole
Bill Withers
Dionne Warwick
Morrissey
The Fifth Dimension
Elvis ( Pressley)
Curtis Mayfield
New Colony Six
The Chi-Lites
Prince
Kool and the Gang
The Shirelles
Echo and the Bunnymen
The Monkees
Los Lobos
Pet Shop Boys
Chic
The Carpenters ( What kind I say ?)
James Brown
The Fixx
Adam Ant
Bow Wow Wow
Paul McCarthy
John Lennon
Living Color
The Charlatans UK
Fine young Canibals
The Cure
Heaven 17
Credence Clearwater Revival
Steve Miller
Bobby Vee
Harold Melvin and the Blue notes
Squirrel Nut Zippers
Bryan Ferry
Depeche Mode
Yaz ( Whatever happen to Allison Moyet ?)
INXS
10,000 Maniacs
Spanky And Our Gang
And countless compilations ranging from from "Funk Classics" to "Instrumental Gold", with includes such artists as Prez Prado, Henry Mancini, Mr.Acker Bilt, Ray Coniff and Percy Faith.
... I'm not digging up my Disco collection. That's in a couple of boxes of heavy albums.
Did the car commercial get you hooked on the Patrick Rodriguez tune ?
2230. ButterfieldSwire - 6/1/2000 5:10:06 PM
Napster seems like a San Francisco bathhouse circa 1978. The whole experience is based on downloading executable files from anonymous strangers. Frankly, if I were a record company, I would hire someone to write a fake .MP3 file to wipe out downloader's hard drives. On the other hand, I would probably just wait and let someone do it for fun. Which they will. As you reap and all that.
2231. Slackjaw - 6/2/2000 7:21:12 AM
best recent CD purchase: Patti Page, Golden Hits
Buena Vista Social Club had great potential and might have been special in the hands of another producer. As it is Cooder's slide guitar is enough to mar some of the tracks completely, imo.
2232. Jenerator - 6/8/2000 1:21:22 AM
Arky, Diva,
My boyfriend's nine year old daughter loves Britney Spears. She told me the funniest thing the other day when we were talking about the music she likes. I told her that I thought that Christina Aguilera had a better voice and more vocal talent than Spears, but that I liked Spears more on a personal level because she seemed so much nicer and sincere. (I watched a European Music Awards show one time that featured Christina hamming it up for the camera talking about how she was "the bomb" while Eminem drooled all over her.)
Her reply was, "Britney can sing, but she just can't sing live, she has a disease."
I asked, "What do you mean?"
She said, "Britney Spears has a disease that won't let her sing and dance live at the same time. It's true. I heard about it."
I couldn't help but smile and ask, "Do you remember the name of the disease?"
Then I told her that Britney lip-syncs because she simply cannot do both the dancing and singing. She (the daughter) looked hurt, so I emphasized how hard it was to sing and dance and that Christina doesn't dance nearly as much as Spears.
Disease, HA!
2233. joezan - 6/8/2000 7:01:47 AM
Hi Jenn!
Yea - disease. That's the ticket.
Christina Aguilera was here a couple of weeks ago for the annual Tulip Time Festival in Holland. It was a very big deal - the first time a pop act had played the festival. In years past, it's always been Tex Benekke (sp?), Guy Lombardo, Mitch Miller, Lawrence Welk...etc.
Anyway, I read in the paper the next day about how awesome the concert was (Youngstown opened...sigh), and how Ms. Aguilera was gracious enough to put on a full show despite the fact that technical difficulties had caused her to start nearly an hour late.
A deputy friend of mine did security for the show. He said that she was the whiniest, b****iest primadonna he'd ever seen. There were no technical problems - she started complaining the minute she got off her plane. "Who sent this piece of shit limo? (a stretch Lincoln) - I specifically requested a Mercedes!"
Then, it was the food and her dressing room. He said that she was refusing to go on, and demanding to be brought back to the airport while her manager grovelled and begged and pleaded with her to do the show. She finally went on after her tech crew, roadies, and everyone in her entourage begged her to.
"Ok - but I'm only doing this for you guys", she said.
Ugghhh!
2234. JudithAtHome - 6/8/2000 5:21:44 PM
Can someone recommend a good CD featuring the music of Erik Satie? All I have is a cassette tape that was copied for me and I don't know the pianists name...
I'm interested in a sort of "best of" overview of his music. Thanks!
2235. theDiva - 6/8/2000 5:38:08 PM
Judith
Try this.
2236. JudithAtHome - 6/8/2000 5:46:25 PM
Thanks, Diva....that looks like a terrific collection! I'm ordering it today.
I nearly broke my neck trying to put the headphones on to listen to the samples...the wires are stuck under the computer base and it will take 2 people to extract them: one to hold and one to pull. I was leaning over in an awkward position and nearly bashed my noggin on the screen...ahhh, well; anything for art! :-)
2237. rubberducky7 - 6/8/2000 9:07:28 PM
meanwhile, Eminem gets stupider as the days pass
2238. Jenerator - 6/9/2000 4:42:29 AM
Hey JoeZan,
I've been meaning to get in touch with you. Yes, I've heard and seen that Aguilera can be quite the little princess. She can sing though. By the way, did your daughter make you watch Britney Spears from Hawaii? I had to...
Frank,
Duran Duran rules. Period. I have to admit that I'm a little embarassed having had a serious crush in Nich Rhodes when I was 12. He looks like Andy Warhol! Ick.
2239. joezan - 6/9/2000 5:35:16 AM
Jenn:
No - believe it or not, my daughter probably couldn't point out Britney Spears in a photo.
Thank GOD!
2240. Jenerator - 6/12/2000 10:19:52 PM
I have weird tastes in music. In my car stereo at the moment are the following cd's:
Dixie Chicks
Frank Sinatra
Soul II Soul
Barry White
Travis
Macy Gray
Beck
Public Enemy
Bjork
Black Box
Seal
ACDC
2241. theDiva - 6/12/2000 10:20:31 PM
Jen
Eclectic, not weird. Eclectic.
2242. millhead - 6/14/2000 4:52:14 AM
Jen,
Macy Gray rules. I play her disk all the time...it's very evident that she writes from the heart and her own personal experiences.
In my disc player:
Rage Against the Machine "Buddah"
Macy Gray "Or How Life Is"
Foo Fighters "Nothing Left to Lose"
Robben Ford "Talk to Your Daughter"
Pink Floyd "Animals"
Diva is correct. Ecletic, not weird.
2243. sakonige - 6/14/2000 5:30:40 AM
The pop cd I have been enjoying lately is Californication by Red Hot Chili Peppers.
2244. sakonige - 6/14/2000 5:32:16 AM
It works with powwow music.
2245. Jenerator - 6/15/2000 1:15:53 AM
Diva,
Thank you for making feel normal!;-)
millhead,
I've enjoyed Miss Gray for about 9 months now, she always puts me in a funky mood.
Sakonige,
Higher Ground is still may favorite single by RHCP.
2246. glendajean - 6/18/2000 4:19:06 PM
Miss La Diva -- I went to the Indy Jazz Fest yesterday. Skipped the stages with Ray Charles, Emmylou Harris and The Temptations, and instead saw a wonderful trumpeter from New Orleans, Nicholas, something (starts with a P), he's only 26. His band did a centennial salute to Louis Armstrong.
Then I watched the Tito Puente Latin Jazz Ensemble. They were hot. And finally watched Cassandra Wilson.
2247. JJBiener - 6/18/2000 4:24:34 PM
Glendajean - You skipped Ray Charles? And the Temptations? I hope the guy you saw was good enough to justify it.
2248. glendajean - 6/18/2000 4:26:23 PM
I wanted to hear jazz and I wasn't disappointed.
I listened to a little Ray Charles on the walk past the stage to the parking lot. He sounded better than he did at the Academy Awards (when he was dreadful).
2249. JJBiener - 6/18/2000 6:29:47 PM
Glendajean - I guess if you are all set for jazz, R&B won't satisfy you. I can understand that. I have been listening to a lot of contemporary jazz lately.
2250. theDiva - 6/19/2000 1:58:00 PM
GASP
NICHOLAS PAYTON!!!!!!
He's fabulous!!!!!!!!
2251. glendajean - 6/19/2000 5:55:20 PM
Yes, he was. Very excellent.
2252. theDiva - 6/19/2000 6:05:05 PM
How was the Puente ensemble sans Puente?
2253. glendajean - 6/19/2000 9:00:40 PM
They were hot. They were joined by a trumpeter/percussionist named Jerry Gonzales and an old jazz pianist named Palimeri (sp?).
Very salsa, but also very jazz. I could have listend to them for hours. I believe Tito was supposed to be with them (before his demise). Am so sorry that I didn't get to see him in person.
2254. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:06:58 PM
Eddie Palmieri?
And remember what Jelly Roll Morton said.....for jazz to be jazz, there has to be a bit of 'Spanish' in it.
I wish I'd seen that show with you.
2255. glendajean - 6/19/2000 9:09:03 PM
Sweetie, my boyfriend doesn't like jazz and only went this year to be nice. Come see me next year and we'll go all three days.
2256. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:17:03 PM
oh, twist my arm. How I wish.
2257. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:21:12 PM
Glendajean - You are only 5-6 hours east of here. Maybe Riv and I can do a road trip for next year. Div has turned him into a first-rate Jazz hound.
2258. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:23:09 PM
Or better yet, maybe I can get my band booked to play there.
2259. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:24:09 PM
"Div has turned him into a first-rate Jazz hound."
nah, too easy.
2260. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:25:53 PM
Diva - You aren't trying to deny responsibility, are you?
2261. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:29:51 PM
JJ
I was opting out of going for the obvious joke. I take full credit for his newly-refined taste in music. Prior to my tutelage, he'd been listening to hobbit rock.
2262. OhioSTOPAS - 6/19/2000 9:32:37 PM
All right, I give up. What's "hobbit rock"?
2263. glendajean - 6/19/2000 9:33:51 PM
Hey, a Mote event around Jazz Fest. Works for me.
2264. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:34:43 PM
Diva - I remember that. He, Irv and Chuck were the only ones who could consistently answer my quiz questions. It is much more interesting to read discussions of Tito and Cassandra Wilson than Yes and Starcastle.
2265. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:35:42 PM
Ohio - I believe it is a reference to progressive rock.
2266. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:37:35 PM
Glendajean - It would really be a trip if we could get both Just Water and The Fabulous Potato Heads booked to play.
2267. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:44:27 PM
Hobbit Rock. Feh.
2268. OhioSTOPAS - 6/19/2000 9:44:56 PM
Q: What magazine do hobbit rock musicians read?
A: Bilbo'rd
2269. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:45:20 PM
nyuk nyuk.
2270. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:49:56 PM
For all you Jazz fans, I just finished listening to Boney James - Body Language for the second time today and the third time in two days. I just put in Spyro Gyra - Dreams Beyond Control. Good stuff.
I have been working on some Jazz stuff in my little home studio. I am going to try to get it digitized and uploaded in the next couple of days. When I do I'll put up a couple of Just Water tunes as well.
2271. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:50:59 PM
You going to do contemporary stuff?
2272. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 9:51:24 PM
Ohio - In Diva's case that would be Bilbored.
2273. theDiva - 6/19/2000 9:55:50 PM
no kidding.
Say, on the way home from PA yesterday, I listened to discs 2, 3, and 4 of The Complete Jazz At The Philharmonic, which I taped from my dad's set last year. Listening to Buck Clayton, Pres, Bird, Diz, et al improvise and swing together was a real treat. It occurred to me that it takes an extraordinary amount of intelligence (of a certain kind) for musicians to improvise together and have it sound right....the JATP Blues, for example, was as densely and richly layered as a Bach fugue, but swung a hell of a lot more (if such a thing is possible.) And Nat Cole is an incredible pianist.
2274. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 10:05:25 PM
Diva - Yes. It is basically synths and and drum loops. I picked up Drums and Percussion from Twiddly Bits. It has several hundred drum loops in the form of MIDI files that I can manipulate and then record over.
It kind of hit me as an epiphany the other day as I was listening to the local college Jazz station. There was a tune on that really rocked. As I listened more carefully I realized that the "drummer" was nothing but a drum loop. I had associated drum loops with hip hop and R&B, but I hadn't thought about using them with Jazz.
I got home and fired up the sequencer, picked a likely loop, and took off. I just played some Jazz chords on a electric piano patch over the rhythm track and I had the same sound I had heard on radio. I finished one piece last night and I have a couple of others in mind.
The impediment to my getting the stuff on line is the fact that my computer has an abysmal sound card. It is a laptop with built-in sound card capabilities and it is noisy beyond belief. I am going to try it any way and see if Sound Forge or Cool Edir can clean it up enough to make it sound decent.
2275. JJBiener - 6/19/2000 10:13:59 PM
Diva - I have heard some of the JATP recordings. They are phenominal. Musicians like Pres, Bird and Diz go beynd mere knowledge and understanding of music. The only way I can explain it is to use Heinlein's word grok: to be come one with. Those guys grok music. It is something that I get a glimpse of on rare occasions.
For the record, Nat Cole is incredible. Period.
2276. OhioSTOPAS - 6/20/2000 12:55:47 AM
Sorry about the bad Bilbo pun.
I try to refrain from lame puns, but I just can't break the . . .
2277. JJBiener - 6/20/2000 4:50:46 PM
Ohio - As puns go, that one was pretty good. Feel free to indulge if you so desire.
2278. Cellar Door - 6/20/2000 4:54:59 PM
I am besotted with Rufus Wainwright. He's Da Bomb.
2279. JJBiener - 6/20/2000 4:57:15 PM
Cellar - Who is Rufus Wainwright? Is he any relation to Loudon Wainwright III?
2280. Jenerator - 6/22/2000 12:58:15 AM
I can't get enough of Ladies & Gentlemen: The Best of George Michael.
2281. JJBiener - 6/22/2000 6:33:42 PM
Jenerator - Which one is he?
2282. theDiva - 6/22/2000 6:43:20 PM
I just got the most incredible CD.
Clifford Brown Memorial Album
Clifford Brown was a fine young bop trumpeter who was killed in an automobile accident on June 26, 1956. This CD features almost a who's who of bop. There are two groups - Brownie with Gigi Gryce (AS, F), Charlie Rouse (TS who played with Monk forever), John Lewis (P, founding member of Modern Jazz Quartet), Percy Heath (B, another MJQ member), and Art Blakey (D, founder of the Jazz Messengers).
The second group is Brownie with Lou Donaldson (AS), Elmo Hope (P), Percy Heath (B), and Philly Joe Jones (D, and not to be confused with Jo Jones who played with Basie, or Jonah Jones who played trumpet).
And this fine, gorgeous CD only cost me $5 on e-bay. Yummy stuff on here. The delicacy of the compositions and the ingenuity and swing of the players has to be heard to be appreciated.
2283. Don S. - 6/22/2000 10:15:51 PM
FWIW
I recently heard Blossom Dearie's rendition of A.C. Jobim's "Wave." Think you don't need to hear yet another version of this oft-recorded standard? You're wrong.
2285. theDiva - 6/23/2000 3:43:06 AM
Don
You know Jobim? And Blossom Dearie? Darling, we must talk. Welcome, again.
2286. Don S. - 6/25/2000 6:57:02 AM
Diva, I'm a Jobimophile from way back (as you well know!), but I'm entirely new to the wonders of Blossom. I've been dying to get a hold of that new disc.
2287. PelleNilsson - 6/25/2000 9:38:43 PM
I read about Paul Allen's museum in Seattle and was reminded that I saw Jimi Hendrix live in Gothenburg. It must have been -68 ot -69.
2288. labwabbit - 6/28/2000 4:09:17 AM
Hendrix? Wow you're at least as old as I Pelle. Viewed the psychdelic-one...in what used to be Boston Garden.. can't remember who opened for him though, go figure...I think it was either Uriah Heep or Iron Butterfly. Either case it was excellent in that it was another great party with a great live band.
2289. Cellar Door - 6/28/2000 4:42:19 AM
Rufus is Loudon's son, J.J. Loudon has had a terrible time dealing with him cause Rufus is such a queen! Spent half his childhood in the bathroom singing grand opera to his stuffed animal collection.
So he turned in desperation to Van Dyke Parks to see if he could help the kid by producing this album Rufus was writing. There are songs about varous guys he's been in love with -- including River Phoenix -- and one about his mother, Kate. None about Dad, however.
Japanese schoolgirls are MAD about Rufus.
And so am I.
2290. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2000 4:55:55 PM
Note to anyone attempting to stage a production of A Midsummer Night's Dream : don't dress the cast in Edwardian costume and expect it to work. And make sure your Oberon has been to the gym a LOT!
2291. JJBiener - 6/28/2000 5:06:04 PM
Judith - I take it the production you saw was less than spectacular.
2292. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2000 5:16:49 PM
JJ:
It was okay but the costuming choices were very distracting; they just didn't work with all the refrences to Athens and Pompeii and such.
However, my suggestion about Oberon was based on the outstanding young man who performed that part last night. He was very scantily clad and looked all the better for it. He could've skated by on his impressive voice alone, though...very commanding and regal. He and Titania were the best part of the show. Of course, they weren't stuck in Edwardian duds, either.
Puck was great...I've never seen a bad Puck, though. (No cheap responses, please!)
2293. JJBiener - 6/28/2000 5:20:14 PM
Judith - (No cheap responses, please!)
And it was so tempting, too.
2294. JudithAtHome - 6/28/2000 5:27:23 PM
Thanks, JJ, you are truly a gentleman!
2295. JJBiener - 6/28/2000 5:30:12 PM
Judith - (blush)
2296. Jenerator - 6/29/2000 2:05:40 AM
Well, it's that time of year again when I work on the fourth of July extravaganza known as the Star Spangled 4th, here in downtown Garland, Texas. This year is going to be crazy. On the 1st, we have the diva Chaka Khan, and the 2nd, we have country super star Jerry Jeff Walker. Night #3, yes, we have the Village People. To wrap it all up, we have Colin Raye, another country star. Throughout each day we have rides for kids (and adults) and vendors to shop from. You can get anything from an investment plan to scented candles to homemade truffles. At night, after the music, we will have a fireworks show. The entertainment is free. Plus, the parade is at 7 pm. Look for me, I'm doing a tribute to GPL.
If you're in the area, check it out.
2297. JudithAtHome - 6/29/2000 7:35:10 PM
What is GPL?
2298. MizPhys - 6/29/2000 7:40:30 PM
Gee, and just this morning, my daughter asked me if the Village People are still alive. Now I know the answer--they're alive and well in Garland, Texas.
2299. Cellar Door - 6/29/2000 7:43:57 PM
Don't you watch "E!" Miz? They ran "The Village People: The E! True Hollywood Story" constantly last month.
2300. joezan - 6/30/2000 2:13:00 PM
9 people crushed to death at a Pearl Jam concert in Denmark.
...guess they thought they were at a soccer game.
2301. Don S. - 6/30/2000 10:01:33 PM
What a senseless waste.
I mean, who listens to Pearl Jam anymore?
2302. JudithAtHome - 6/30/2000 10:28:27 PM
Even if everybody was the answer to your question, it wouldn't justify those deaths.
On another sad note, or rather, a pathetic one: Ron Woods entered re-hab this weekend for his drinking problem. Fifty-five years old and he looks 100, acts like a fool. Grow up.
2304. JJBiener - 7/4/2000 5:32:19 PM
Too bad he didn't drag Keith Richards with him.
2305. Cellar Door - 7/4/2000 5:48:55 PM
Too late for rehab in Keith's case. Just put him on a drip and have done with it.
2306. theDiva - 7/4/2000 5:49:31 PM
hahahaha! He's a sad sight.
2307. theDiva - 7/4/2000 5:49:41 PM
RIP Harold Nicholas
2308. Cellar Door - 7/4/2000 5:54:51 PM
Oh lord yes, Harold!
He was supposed to appear with Fayard here in L.A. this Saturday. So sad I can barely post about it.
It was Fayard who named Harold -- after his favorite movie star, Harold Lloyd. He was so happy to have a baby brother, so he could teach him all his dance routines.
My favorite of the early performances is in "Kid Millions" with Eddie Cantor. "Stormy Weather," "The Pirate," "Down Argentine Way," and the others are all classic.
I saw Fayard just last month (Bill and I know him slightly as we used to visit him when he was living at the Motion Picture home. Now he's remarried and has moved back to town.) He has two artificial hips, and can still do the Shim-Sham! He's such a joyous person -- lighting up every room he walks into. I'd hate to think any of that joy was diminished, but that's life.
2309. JJBiener - 7/4/2000 5:58:06 PM
I saw a series of commercials recently featuring various aging Rock stars. The would show the artist display his name and age and then provide some tag line. When they showed Keith Richard they identified his age as "Dead . . . (Just Kidding)". The ad was effective in that I remember it, but I can't remember if it was promotion for VH-1 or if they were hawking a product so it was very effective.
2310. theDiva - 7/4/2000 5:58:21 PM
I don't doubt for a minute that they were both very special people. Anyone who moved with that much joy, abandon, athletic grace, and sheer beauty had to be filled with something beautiful and rare. They were just marvelous together.
2311. Don S. - 7/4/2000 9:24:31 PM
I've still got my original hips and can't do the shim-sham!
another topic:
I'm currently listening to a cd I made of MP3s from Napster: Gal Costa, Elis Regina, Elliott Smith, Hooverphonic, Marc Anthony, Macy Gray, et al.
Take THAT, Lars Ulrich!
2312. Don S. - 7/4/2000 9:33:24 PM
... Chico Buarque, Michael Franks, Radiohead ...
and there's more where those came from!
Being a scofflaw is so much fun.
2313. Don S. - 7/4/2000 10:11:40 PM
I mean, who wants to pay full price for an obscure album by the La's just to get "There She Goes"?
I'm done now.
2314. Fraaankster - 7/4/2000 10:26:13 PM
Don S.
I almost ordered that one particular 80s CD they plug on TV containing the La's, There she goes. I love that song, although I do take exception to the current version by whoever sings it ( some woman group I think ? )... Another example of the original being the better version imo.
Oh yeah! Welcome aboard! :-)
2315. Don S. - 7/4/2000 10:32:23 PM
Sixpence None the Richer ... ugh, the name alone gives me the creeps. But now I have a darn-near-CD-quality version of the that song (original version) free from the Web. Larceny is da bomb.
(p.s., Fraaaaaaaank, this is your old pal trouserPilot.)
2316. RosettaStone - 7/5/2000 3:12:31 AM
Call me lucky.
Just purchased four classic jazz albums for the price of three ($25).
They are: 1. "Working with the Miles Davis Quintet" (plus the freebee CD 'cause plastic album jacket was broken "Relaxing with the Miles Davis Quintet")
2. "Bird on 52nd Street" (terrible audio)
3. "Bill Evans Trio--Sunday at the Village Vanguard" I credit laDiva for picking this. Great piano but the audiences' audience is pathetic. It sounds like there were only 10 people at the cafe.
2317. JudithAtHome - 7/5/2000 4:55:31 AM
Rosetta:
Looks as though you got 3 for the price of 3 there. But nice choices, anyhow....I didn't pick you as an appreciator of good jazz, for some reason.
2318. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:06:09 AM
A suggestion for music lovers: Try www.mongomusic.com
2319. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:15:19 AM
Another try: mongomusic.
2320. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:16:44 AM
Another try: mongomusic.com.
2321. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:18:59 AM
Another try: www.mongomusic.com.
2322. DaveM - 7/5/2000 6:19:02 AM
Wonkers - There are no spaces in "target=new"
2323. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:21:28 AM
Another try: www.mongomusic.com.
2324. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:25:06 AM
The last link seems to work in case anybody's interested. It's a good music site. (Perhaps I'm biased. My son was one of the architects/programmers of the site. His tech aptitude came from the other side of the family!)
2325. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 6:26:54 AM
Thanks, Dave. I have trouble following instructions.
2326. DaveM - 7/5/2000 6:27:54 AM
No problem. It looks like an interesting site.
2327. DaveM - 7/5/2000 6:32:18 AM
Wonkers -
None of the songs actually play after my Real Player activates - are they functioning for you?
2328. PelleNilsson - 7/5/2000 7:06:11 AM
wonkers
A tip: In the Fray links were inactivated in preview mode; in the Mote they are not. So you don't have to post to check your links.
2329. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 2:51:28 PM
Dave, Yeah, the songs play for me on RadioMongo. And on the site proper 30 seconds of each song plays. On RadioMongo you select jazz or blues or rock, etc., and, after selecting a genre, you can pick your artist or song from among the ones they have in the system. (They have a fairly wide selection, but not everybody. One they don't have is Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk, but I listened to Cannonball Adderly last night for a while.)
2330. wonkers2 - 7/5/2000 2:53:41 PM
Pelle, Thanks for the tip. I'm incredibly inept at this stuff. Born 30 years too soon. I didn't know I could check to see if they actually worked without posting them.
2331. DaveM - 7/5/2000 3:02:03 PM
Wonkers -
Ahhhhhhh. I wasn't clicking on RadioMongo. The RealPlayer wasn't connecting, but I suspect that it is my computer's fault. It has been acting funny lately.
I like the up-front positioning of the Bluegrass section. Bluegrass is a genre that has a lot of geographic nostalgia for me, but I never took the plunge until Napster came about; I am really enjoying learning about it.
2332. Cellar Door - 7/8/2000 4:39:56 PM
A truly amazing evening. The Jazz/Tap ensemble performed at the John Anson Ford theater here in Los Angeles at what was designed as a tribute to the Nicholas Brothers, but turned into an impromptu memorial to Harold Nicholas who passed aay just a few days ago. A very nice series of tap performances by the troupe. And then Fayard Nicolas came one.
Bill and I had been looking forward to this with enormous trepidation. Fayard is such a joyous person, but the loss of his brother is such an overwhelming thing that we wondered if he'd do more than say a few words. Well he didn't just do that -- he danced!
This man is 85 years old and has TWO artificial hip replacements!
At first he sat down and reminisced -- doing a medley of great songs introduced by dancers. The last, of course, being "Come Rain or Come Shine" (my candidate for the greatest popular song ever written) which Harold introduced in "St. Louis Woman" -- the Harold Arlen musical in which they co-starred with Pearl Bailey. Then, still seated he started to tap.
And then he got up and danced.
I am at a loss for words.
2333. JudithAtHome - 7/8/2000 6:27:03 PM
Cellar:
We watched the Nicholas Brothers Biography last night on A&E and it highlighted tons of their best stuff from the movies. I hadn't seen the sequence from Stormy Weather before and it was breathtaking. Going up that white staircase and coming down it was thrilling...they did that entire sequence in one take, too. Un-frickin'- believable!
2334. Cellar Door - 7/8/2000 6:32:24 PM
And they had been doing that sort of thing since they were knee-high to a doorstop.
2335. Don S. - 7/9/2000 2:21:39 AM
This weekend's acquisitions (you missed these little updates, didn't you?):
John Coltrane Live in Seattle
John Coltrane Soultrane
Anthony Davis, James Newton, Abdul Wadud Trio(2)
Miles Davis The Musings of Miles
Chico Freeman The Pied Piper
Lambert, Hendricks & Ross Sing a Song of Basie
Lee Morgan The Sixth Sense
Thelonious Monk Quintet Monk
Woody Herman (and the Herd) At Carnegie Hall (1946)
Astor Piazzola The Rough Dancer and the Cyclical Night
Michel Chion La Tentation de Saint-Antoine; La Ronde
William Bolcom, Fred Lerdahl, Jacob Druckman, Michael Gandolfi Deutsche Grammophon Points of Departure compilation
W.A. Mozart La Clemenza di Tito
Giuseppe Verdi La Forza del Destino
complete list: http://members.home.net/dtsjr/tenoch/tenoch00.html
2336. Don S. - 7/9/2000 2:22:51 AM
sorry: Piazzolla
2337. Cellar Door - 7/9/2000 6:11:28 AM
Nice haul there, Don.
2338. DaveM - 7/9/2000 6:38:59 AM
I just bought the Coltrane Live in Seattle album after downloading part of it on Napster.
2339. Uzmakk - 7/9/2000 8:25:58 PM
If you were to design a cartoon character to run for president what would it look like and what would it say?
2340. Uzmakk - 7/9/2000 8:26:55 PM
I ask this after a comparison piece between Gore and Bush on NPR this morning.
2341. Uzmakk - 7/9/2000 8:27:23 PM
i.e., after hearing
2342. Cellar Door - 7/9/2000 11:07:51 PM
Bullwinkle for President!
"Hey Rocky -- watch me pull a Health Care System our of a hat!"
2343. Cellar Door - 7/9/2000 11:11:07 PM
2344. JJBiener - 7/10/2000 5:41:46 PM
Cellar - "Hey Rocky -- watch me pull a Health Care System our of a hat!"
Our current President already tried that.
2345. Cellar Door - 7/10/2000 8:58:26 PM
And got his had cut off when he reached for the hat.
2346. theDiva - 7/12/2000 2:59:49 PM
Okay, winning in the award for The Most Ridiculous Bullshit Ever.
07/12/2000
Associated Press Newswires
LONDON (AP) - A group of legendary pop songwriters has named the Beatles' "In My Life" as the greatest song ever written.
The autobiographical John Lennon song, which appeared on the 1965 "Rubber Soul" album, beat the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction" to the top of the list, which was compiled from individual top 10s by songwriters including Paul McCartney, Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, legendary '50s lyricist Jerry Leiber, and Burt Bacharach collaborator Hal David.
Harold Arlen and E.Y. Harburg's "Over The Rainbow," from "The Wizard of Oz," was third.
The Beatles had two songs on the list, compiled for the music magazine Mojo. "Here, There and Everywhere," written by Paul McCartney, was No. 4.
The full list, with the artists who made then famous:
1. "In My Life" - The Beatles
2. "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" - Rolling Stones
3. "Over The Rainbow" - Judy Garland
4. "Here, There And Everywhere" - The Beatles
5. "Tracks Of My Tears" - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles
6. "The Times They Are A-Changin"' - Bob Dylan
7. "Strange Fruit" - Billie Holiday
8. "I Can't Make You Love Me" - Bonnie Raitt
9. "People Get Ready" - The Impressions
10. "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin"' - The Righteous Brothers
2347. JJBiener - 7/12/2000 4:25:18 PM
Diva - Friends don't let friends rate songs drunk. In My Life is a great song, but it is hardly the best ever. I don't know what those guys were thinking.
2348. theDiva - 7/12/2000 4:30:16 PM
Well, and another idiocy is they make no distinction as to whether they mean the song or the recording. And given the art of the popular song includes Johnny Mercer, Cole Porter, and the Gershwins, the list is ludicrous. Just ludicrous. And what is that gratuitous nod to jazz? It's insulting.
2349. Cellar Door - 7/12/2000 4:59:47 PM
The greatest song ever written is "Come Rain or Come Shine."
After that you can take your pick of Porter, Kern, Rogers & Hart, Vernon Duke, et. al.
Diva -- I'm convinced the "Return to Love" tour wouldn't have been cancelled had you been a Supreme.
2350. JJBiener - 7/12/2000 5:01:21 PM
Diva - I know there is no accounting for taste, but that explain their "no account" taste.
2351. JJBiener - 7/12/2000 5:02:07 PM
Diva - throw a 'doesn't" in there before the 'explain"
2352. theDiva - 7/12/2000 5:27:50 PM
Cellar
Thank you, dear. That's because I'd have bitch-slapped Diane into silence.
2353. EricCartman - 7/14/2000 8:03:42 AM
What a silly list....everyone knows the greatest song of all time is the theme from Fat Albert.
Hey hey hey!
2354. EricCartman - 7/14/2000 8:20:55 AM
Some worthy Napster downloads -- yes, I am wallowing in my hypocrisy, Greystoke:
Badfinger -- Baby Blue; Day After Day
Beatles -- Norwegian Wood
Beach Boys -- God Only Knows
Boo Radleys -- There She Goes
Everclear -- Santa Monica; Everything to Everyone
Beck -- Where It's At
Devo -- Satisfaction; Jocko Homo
Talking Heads -- Once in a Lifetime; Psycho Killer
Filter -- Hey Man, Nice Shot
Rolling Stones -- I Am Waiting; Monkey Man
Eurythmics -- I Saved the World Today
Love -- Seven and Seven Is
Snake River Conspiracy -- She Said She Said (Beatles cover)
Cake -- Going the Distance; Rock n'Roll Lifestyle
Foo Fighters -- Everlong; Everlong (acoustic -- live on Howard Stern show)
Floater -- Waiting for the Sun (Doors cover); Mexican Bus; Cinema
King Crimson -- Fracture
Aimee Mann -- Save Me
Michael Penn -- No Myth
William Shatner -- Rocket Man; Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
Leonard Nimoy -- Put a Little Love in Your Heart; I Walk the Line
some '80s one-hit wonders -- Big Country, Dexy's Midnight Runners, Men at Work, etc.
lots of Bill Clinton song parodies from radio shows
a bunch of "Harry Caray" parodies from the Bob & Tom radio show -- these are sidesplitting, if you enjoy Harry Caray impersonators (and who doesn't?)
2355. angel-five - 7/14/2000 8:22:50 AM
My ass. The greatest song ever has to be the Ozzy Osbourne-Dweezil Zappa rendition of 'Stayin' Alive'. You just can't help but shake your moneymaker to that one.
2356. EricCartman - 7/14/2000 8:29:31 AM
A5:
When did Dweezil do that one? There's a rendition of that song on Dweezil's Confessions album, with Donny Osmond singing, and five or six well-known guest guitarists soloing, but I didn't know he did it with Ozzy also.
2357. angel-five - 7/14/2000 8:32:27 AM
I'm not entirely sure; I just know that I downloaded it at one time (I think off Scour). It was labeled a rare cut so I'd imagine it was a b-side or something.
The scary thing is that, in a freaky sort of way, it actually works.
2358. ee - 7/14/2000 8:44:18 AM
2359. Don S. - 7/16/2000 6:35:31 PM
Hahahahaha! Somebody else downloaded "Day After Day"!
Meanwhile... I finally tracked down a copy of the new(ish) Blossom Dearie disc at Borders. Typically pricey ($17.99) but worth it.
2360. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:39:00 PM
My intern loaned me Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds Live At Luther College. Music to slit your wrists to. A double CD set.
2361. Don S. - 7/16/2000 6:45:02 PM
"Music to slit your wrists to."
Really? I usually reserve that honor for the "smooth jazz" crap that Biener favors.
2362. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:47:39 PM
haw! No, that's 'music you turn off so fast you nearly knock over the radio'.
2363. Don S. - 7/16/2000 6:49:17 PM
Speaking of which... they reprinted Pat Metheny's tirade against Kenny G in this month's Harper's Magazine.
Heh heh heh.
2364. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:50:26 PM
That was a GOOD one.
2365. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:50:40 PM
Let me see if I can find it, I'll post it.
2366. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:58:52 PM
Pat Metheny on Kenny G:
kenny g is not a musician i really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. there was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records. i first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with jeff lorber when they opened a concert for my band. my impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like grover washington or david sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. he had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music. but he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the keys moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again) . the other main thing i noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, play horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.
of course, i am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. this controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years.
2367. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:59:06 PM
and honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. there must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than kenny g on his chosen instruments. it would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.
having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right “bait” of a question, as i will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all.
stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. it’s just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. so, lately i have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.
2368. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:59:19 PM
and after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? he SHOULD be compared to john coltrane or wayne shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument’s legacy and potential.
as a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to herbie hancock, horace silver or even grover washington. suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn’t fare well.
but, like i said at the top, this relatively benign view was all “until recently”.
not long ago, kenny g put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old louis armstrong record, the track “what a wonderful world”. with this single move, kenny g became one of the few people on earth i can say that i really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.
2369. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:59:37 PM
this type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when natalie cole did it with her dad on “unforgettable” a few years ago, but it was her dad. when tony bennett did it with billie holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. when larry coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a wes montgomery track, i lost a lot of the respect that i ever had for him - and i have to seriously question the fact that i did have respect for someone who could turn out to have have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.
but when kenny g decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great louis’s tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that i would not have imagined possible. he, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that louis armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. by disrespecting louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, kenny g has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. we ignore this, “let it slide”, at our own peril.
2370. theDiva - 7/16/2000 6:59:55 PM
his callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.
since that record came out - in protest, as insigificant as it may be, i encourage everyone to boycott kenny g recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. if asked about kenny g, i will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.
normally, i feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don’t really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.
there ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, louis armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. to ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and i refuse to do that. (i am also amazed that there HASN’T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!- , magazines, etc.). everything i said here is exactly the same as what i would say to gorelick if i ever saw him in person. and if i ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)
2371. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:00:08 PM
NOTE: this post is partially in response to the comments that people have made regarding a short video interview excerpt with me that was posted on the internet taken from a tv show for young people (kind of like MTV) in poland where i was asked to address 8 to 11 year old kids on terms that they could understand about jazz.
while enthusiastically describing the virtues of this great area of music, i was encouraging the kids to find and listen to some of the greats in the music and not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella. i went on to say that i think that for instance, “kenny g plays the dumbest music on the planet” - something that all 8 to 11 year kids on the planet already intrinsically know, as anyone who has ever spent any time around kids that age could confirm - so it gave us some common ground for the rest of the discussion. (ADDENDUM: the only thing wrong with the statement that i made was that i did not include the rest of the known universe.)
2372. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:00:24 PM
the fact that this clip was released so far out of the context that it was delivered in is a drag, but it is now done. (it’s unauthorized release out of context like that is symptomatic of the new electronically interconnected culture that we now live in - where pretty much anything anyone anywhere has ever said or done has the potential to become common public property at any time.) i was surprised by the polish people putting this clip up so far away from the use that it was intended -really just for the attention - with no explanation of the show it was made for - they (the polish people in general) used to be so hip and would have been unlikely candidates to do something like that before, but i guess everything is changing there like it is everywhere else.
the only other thing that surprised me in the aftermath of the release of this little interview is that ANYONE would be even a little bit surprised that i would say such a thing, given the reality of mr. g’s music. this makes me want to go practice about 10 times harder, because that suggests to me that i am not getting my own musical message across clearly enough - which to me, in every single way and intention is diametrically opposed to what Kenny G seems to be after.
END
2373. Don S. - 7/16/2000 7:03:35 PM
Deev, why did you even bother getting so hepped up about that "best songs list"? Good lord, everyone's list-crazy these days (not like in my day: we didn't even have numbers above six back then).
The now-defunct Musician magazine undertook a similar project a few years ago, interviewing current songwriters about who they considered to be the best among their peers (it might have been focused on "best song"; I can't remember) -- though nothing so crude as a "top 10."
The name and song title that cropped up most frequently: Randy Newman and "I Think It's Going to Rain Today."
2374. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:05:26 PM
I suppose, given my advanced years, I shouldn't get so worked up. But flaming, moronic stupidity gets my dander up, dadgum it.
And I love Randy Newman, but WTF?
2375. Don S. - 7/16/2000 7:09:30 PM
It is a great song. Very moving. Very compact. Unpretentious.
It has obviously struck many nerves.
2376. Don S. - 7/16/2000 7:10:08 PM
... including mine.
2377. JudithAtHome - 7/16/2000 7:19:24 PM
We watched Sweet and Lowdown this weekend; loved the music and Penn did a quirky job of portraying Emmett Ray. I only posted this info because I wanted to type the name Django Rhinehart. :-)
We're going to get the soundtrack....HH really loved the sounds.
2378. Don S. - 7/16/2000 7:22:58 PM
You know what name is also really fun to type?
"Django Reinhardt"
2379. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:24:01 PM
It was a lovely little film, Judith.
Django Reinhardt was a fabulous guitarist. If you can, find his recordings with Le Hot Club or Stephane Grappelli.
2380. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:24:20 PM
Don
My way is so much more tactful.
2381. Don S. - 7/16/2000 7:41:26 PM
Tact, schmact.
Anyhoo, Judith, I agree with Diva. In fact, I'd go further and suggest you skip the soundtrack and get some of the real stuff. I can almost guarantee that the "Hot Club de France" recording(s) that Diva suggested will make you a very happy person.
2382. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:42:12 PM
I guess it's acceptable in a person of your advanced years.
2383. JudithAtHome - 7/16/2000 7:44:04 PM
For the want of a "d" her aplomb was lost....
2384. theDiva - 7/16/2000 7:48:18 PM
then there was the small matter of the superfluous H and the misplaced I and E. But you still have more aplomb in one well-manicured little finger than do most mortals in their entire bods.
2385. JudithAtHome - 7/16/2000 7:50:27 PM
Well, it must be all that costume jewelry that influenced my spelling. But thanks...
2386. JJBiener - 7/16/2000 11:08:43 PM
Don S - What do you think I listen to?
2387. JJBiener - 7/16/2000 11:12:18 PM
Diva - Thanks for posting the Metheny essay. I am going to put one of his CDs in the player in honor of his willingness and ability to reveal the truth.
Gee, which one? There are so many. Secret Story, an oldie but a goodie.
2388. Don S. - 7/16/2000 11:45:09 PM
Message # 2249. JJBiener - 6/19/00 9:29:47 AM
Glendajean - I guess if you are all set for jazz, R&B won't satisfy you. I can understand that. I have been listening to a lot of contemporary jazz lately.
"Mainstream jazz" and "Contemporary jazz" are terms radio programmers, et al., use to differentiate real jazz from elevator music.
Message # 2270. JJBiener - 6/20/00 12:49:56 PM
For all you Jazz fans, I just finished listening to Boney James - Body Language for the second time today and the third time in two days. I just put in Spyro Gyra - Dreams Beyond Control. Good stuff.
Boney James? Gack. He's merely an uglier Kenny G. Oh, and nice album cover: the title scrawled is across a woman's naked torso. I guess if you can't suck 'em in with quality, you can always do it with sex. Miles Davis was one of the biggest sexist pigs in jazz history but at least he respected his various girlfriends enough to put their faces on his album covers. And Spyro Gyra? Are they still around? This is "jazz" for people who still refer to the individual songs as "instrumentals."
Message # 2274. JJBiener - 6/20/00 1:05:25 PM
I had associated drum loops with hip hop and R&B, but I hadn't thought about using them with Jazz. ... I got home and fired up the sequencer, picked a likely loop, and took off. I just played some Jazz chords on a electric piano patch over the rhythm track and I had the same sound I had heard on radio.
Yikes. Drum loops in "jazz." What a horrible idea. You understand that you're not actually making jazz here, right? It's just more "jazzy sounding" elevator music.
but hey,
... whatever floats your boat.
2389. JJBiener - 7/17/2000 12:26:57 AM
Don S. - If you can't tell the difference between Boney James and Kenny G, I'd say the problem was yours. Contemporary Jazz is elevator music? LOL!
2390. Don S. - 7/17/2000 12:28:38 AM
Did you really "laugh out loud" just now?
2391. arkymalarky - 7/17/2000 12:58:39 AM
Great essay. I saw Pat Metheny live quite a few years ago. He came to LR not long after Al DiMeola, who Bob and I also got to see. Don't know what brought those two to AR, but they've never returned and it's rare to get a good big-name jazz or fusion artist here (though we do have some good concerts very occasionally.
What I like most about that essay is how it encapsulates what so bugs the shit out of me about the Kenny G's and Celine Dion's that I could never quite explain. Technically they might be flashy and would impress a local crowd, but to be at the top of musical success when so many really fabulous musicians and vocalists receive so much less broad notice (and many hardly any at all) is depressing.
2392. arkymalarky - 7/17/2000 1:01:28 AM
And I saw Spyro Gyra at a "jazz" festival (not a lot of jazz there, if I recall) on the AR River.
2393. JJBiener - 7/17/2000 4:15:41 PM
Arky - Technically they might be flashy and would impress a local crowd, but to be at the top of musical success when so many really fabulous musicians and vocalists receive so much less broad notice (and many hardly any at all) is depressing.
Think how depressing it is for those of us who are musicians.
2394. Don S. - 7/17/2000 8:31:13 PM
She said "fabulous musicians."
;-)
2395. arkymalarky - 7/17/2000 11:14:13 PM
Actually, I have a number of family members (as does Bob) in music as full-time jobs or sidelines and we both have played in groups (Bob is actually an excellent guitarist), which here is a double exercise in frustration--not only do not nearly enough people around here listen to what we like to play, it's a dry county so there are virtually no venues to play in; so in short, I get an earful of that kind of thing regularly. Most of the musicians I know in AR don't ever turn on their radios. They keep up with the good stuff and buy it, trade it, share it, etc. If they want to play professionally, except for the nephew in the AR Symphony, they grit their teeth and play what people want to hear.
2396. arkymalarky - 7/17/2000 11:16:17 PM
Ooooh, let me make the exception of the local universities which have some very good musicians, but they do little public music outside the colleges, and what performances they do play are mostly fairly good distances away.
2397. arkymalarky - 7/18/2000 5:46:07 AM
OK Bro, if you're lurking,
Happy Birthday!
If you're not,
Ppppppbttttthttt!
('Scuse me, JJ, but this is the first and possibly only place he would look)
2398. Fraaankster - 7/18/2000 5:54:07 AM
Whose birthday is it ?
Whose ever it is:
2399. EricCartman - 7/18/2000 10:56:25 PM
Don S Message # 2359
Hahahahaha! Somebody else downloaded "Day After Day"!
Heh. Yeah, don't tell anyone -- I might lose my charter membership in the Black Sabbath Fan Club. I've always liked Badfinger; I don't know if it's just a love for limey guitar pop, or just bemused irony that such seemingly nice music could come from a bunch of suicidal Welshmen. There was always a melancholic core to the pretty melodies, which is necessary -- otherwise you might as well listen to the Archies. But I have been on twin kicks of guitar pop and acid rock lately. So it's heaping doses of Michael Penn and the 13th Floor Elevators, Badfinger and King Crimson. Beats the hell out of turning on the radio and listening to Limp Korn Godsmack Metallica Inc.
If you are who I think you are, Don, have you picked up Wasp Star yet?
Diva:
Thanks for reprinting that Metheny article. He's dead on about Kenny G (ewww....even typing the name....). It's stunning that G is considered a virtuoso. He's more in the John Tesh or Yanni league -- you half expect to see an old Italian guy standing behind them cranking a hurdy-gurdy. It's cheap theatrics substituting for actual ability.
2400. Wombat - 7/18/2000 11:04:10 PM
Cart:
You'll want to get "Shake Some Action" by the Flamin' Groovies.
2401. arkymalarky - 7/18/2000 11:04:37 PM
I love "Day After Day" too. It's a good song.
2402. Wombat - 7/18/2000 11:10:34 PM
Cart:
You'll also want to get early Hawkwind.
2403. Don S. - 7/18/2000 11:23:37 PM
Cart,
I must be who you think I are. A friend got me a preview copy of Wasp Star a couple of weeks before the actual release date. I like it. The last track (name escapes me) is classic fun XTC. And, like Apple Venux, the Moulding tracks are mostly a drag.
Actually, I only downloaded "Day After Day" because I couldn't get any of the downloads of "No Matter What" to work.
2404. Don S. - 7/18/2000 11:24:40 PM
er, Venus
sorry about the dust
2405. arkymalarky - 7/19/2000 12:10:25 AM
Frank,
I got your email and link, but I was going to have to download a newer version of RealAudio to hear it, so I'll try to do that soon. The lyrics sound just familiar enough to make me think I would recall it if I heard it.
PS--Bro is my brother. 39 yesterday and he called me and put the old guilt trip on me for forgetting (my birthday's 12 days after his, so I can rarely get him for forgetting mine). I told him to pop into the mote, but forgot to tell him where to look, so I figured he would look here. I haven't heard from him, so I guess he found something else to do--again.
2406. EricCartman - 7/19/2000 11:04:59 AM
Wombat:
No dice on the Flamin' Groovies -- the Napster search didn't find anyone that had anything by them (I also tried "Flaming"). Kinda surprising; there's some pretty obscure stuff on there.
I assume by "early Hawkwind" you mean pre-Lemmy. I'm not at all familiar with them, and there were only 3 or 4 people that had stuff by them anyway, so I just picked the trippiest song titles with a reasonably short length. "Master of the Universe" and "Star Cannibal". S'alright; reminds me of the very first Scorpions album from 1971 -- serious "we just smoked a bongload and are contemplating our navels" vibe.
Still, those early-'70s cult-rock bands can be fun. Wishbone Ash, Budgie, early Blue Öyster Cult. Strange shit.
Don:
I had basically the same impression of Wasp Star. I don't know how Moulding keeps getting his songs on the albums; Partridge must just want to throw him a bone to keep it from turning into a full-on solo deal (even though it basically is).
Hip downloads of the week -- Britpop sensation Travis' acoustic rendition of Britney Spears' Hit Me Baby One More Time; "Notorious B.I.L."'s Mo Booty Mo Problems (excellent Bill Clinton parody of Notorious B.I.G.'s Mo Money Mo Problems); They're Coming to Take Me Away Ha-ha! by Napoleon XIV.
2407. Wombat - 7/19/2000 3:40:28 PM
Cartman:
I didn't realize you were napstering. The iteration of Hawkwind I had in mind does have Lemmy (and sax-ist Nik Turner). Try "Urban Guerilla" or "Silver Machine" if they are available.
2408. theDiva - 7/19/2000 8:55:29 PM
Hey!
In honor of Pops' apocryphal centennial, Spinner.com has added a Satchmo channel...le jazz hot at its finest. Check it out.
2409. theDiva - 7/19/2000 8:55:45 PM
Geez Louise.
2410. JJBiener - 7/19/2000 9:15:19 PM
Diva - Stop calling me Louise.
2411. Jenerator - 7/19/2000 9:27:25 PM
I love Travis, they're so melancholy.
2412. Jenerator - 7/19/2000 9:29:19 PM
Eric,
I wonder if you'll like Ali G when he makes it in the US. He is absolutely hilarious and on his variety show. He features up and coming bands, one of his 'current' episodes features Travis.
2413. Fraaankster - 7/19/2000 9:54:42 PM
Eric,
They're Coming to Take Me Away Ha-ha! by Napoleon XIV. I remember that song....Boy, I really do know and remember some shitty music.;-)
...I've got hook up with this Napster thang!
Deev,
I managed to get a copy of Electric Boogie ( Electric Slide ) by Marcia Griffiths, if you are still interested in me bringing it ? Remember to lead with your right, and ... well, you know the steps.
Is it safe to dance with Skeeter and all ? Maybe I'll just ask Greg to spot cha ? ;-)
Shit, gotta go. Work calls.
2414. theDiva - 7/19/2000 10:13:57 PM
Louise
I'll call you what I please. Now gimme a pickle.
Frank
Please. Not only do I know all the steps, I'll dance your butt off the floor.
2415. JJBiener - 7/19/2000 10:45:59 PM
Diva - Now gimme a pickle.
You want me to give you a pickle? What would Greg say?
Oh, a pickle. Nevermind.
2416. theDiva - 7/19/2000 10:50:03 PM
I said pickle. Not gherkin.
2417. theDiva - 7/19/2000 10:50:53 PM
ooh. That was below the belt. Sorry.
2418. JJBiener - 7/19/2000 10:57:33 PM
Diva - Did you forget who you're talking to? We're talking a huge, Kosher Dill. BTW, it always has been below my belt. I intend on keeping it there.
2419. theDiva - 7/19/2000 10:58:43 PM
(refrains from further comment)
2420. JJBiener - 7/19/2000 10:59:34 PM
Uh, I think we got off track. Heard any good tunes lately?
2421. Wombat - 7/19/2000 11:01:15 PM
"I don't want a pickle, just want to ride on my motorsickle"
2422. JJBiener - 7/19/2000 11:02:37 PM
"And I don't wanna die
I just want to ride on my motorcy-
cle"
2423. Fraaankster - 7/20/2000 2:24:15 AM
Deev,
Please. Not only do I know all the steps, I'll dance your butt off the floor.
Okay ... we'll see ( Yikes! That's only some 16 days away for you to start practicing, woman ). We'll see who turns out who on the dance floor. He-he-he!
By the way, since I've been practicing with current stuff the last four weekends in order to shake some of the rust out, will you allow me at least one current tune that I am familiar with ? Something harmless such as Country Grammer by Nelly, or maybe a little Aaliyah and some Try Again would do. I'll bring them if you don't have them ?
...Step two, step two, step two...
One more thing: I bumped into my kid sister while she was in town this weekend, and kiddingly asked her if she wanted to go out dancing to the Electric Slide that evening, and this was her response:
Are you kidding ? The Electric Slide is for old people who don't know how to dance, blah, blah, blah....
Did you catch the old in there ? I've really gotta show this youngster respect for her elders one of these days.
2424. theDiva - 7/20/2000 3:20:31 PM
Frankus
Just keep talkin smack.
And tell yer sister if she ever saw Greg do the Slide, she'd change her opinion.
2425. theDiva - 7/20/2000 3:20:59 PM
oh, and bring those, that'll be okay.
2426. Fraaankster - 7/20/2000 10:17:31 PM
Deev,
Don't get me started! You know damn well I have been looking for a way to avenge that sweep of my Padres to dem damn darn Yankees in the World Series a couple of years back.This east/west coast dance thing you want to do just might be my ticket to reclaim a bit of west coast pride once more.
And yes, your condition with Skeeter will allow you some leeway, but not much. ;-)
Have a great weekend y'all!
2427. EricCartman - 7/21/2000 2:26:34 AM
Wombat Message # 2407:
Yeah, I have been getting a lot of stuff from Napster lately, much of it stuff that is unavailable to buy in the first place (radio show comedy pieces, B-sides, unreleased live tracks/alternate versions, out-of-print songs, etc.). I left a partial list probably 50 posts back in this thread. Lots of cool stuff though. I probably won't be downloading a whole lot more from them in the near future; I don't have a zip drive or CD writer and the MP3 files are not small by any means. But I'll keep an eye out for that Hawkwind stuff. Anything with Lemmy on it has to be cool, even if he's not singing.
Jen Message # 2412:
I don't know who Ali G is. I've heard a couple of Travis' original songs, and they remind me a bit of Radiohead, which is a good thing.
Frank Message # 2413:
Napster is pretty cool, especially for finding unusual stuff. For just horking well-known commercial songs, I guess it depends on how you feel about that sort of thing (personally I'm not too fond of it -- I don't think I've downloaded much of anything from the past decade).
And They're Coming.... is not a shitty song. Just for its "creep" quotient alone, it's cool. Born to Be Alive, that's a shitty song.... ;-)
2428. angel-five - 7/21/2000 10:16:07 AM
New fave: Afro Celt Sound System. If you can find it, download it. African rhythm with Celt overlays and hypnotic vocals.
2429. Uzmakk - 7/22/2000 3:02:53 AM
Bought ACSS after hearing it on NPR. Gets old quick.
2430. Uzmakk - 7/22/2000 3:04:15 AM
Hypnotic vocals? You must go under when you flip a quarter.
2431. concerned - 7/22/2000 6:02:27 AM
Just feeling happy
2432. icarus - 7/23/2000 12:42:16 AM
O.K.,
Here's a hot tip for all you music fans, Kansas fans, etc. You have got to check out the new Kansas album "Somewhere to Elsewhere." I can promise you that it will be the best fifteen dollar investment you will make this year. Kerry Livgren and Dave Hope are back so you have the original line up with the added bonus of Kerry Livgren having written all of the songs. If you loved the Kansas of old you will love this new album!!! It's on the "Magna Carta" label and is not to easy to find. Call your local radio station and ask them to play a cut for you.
2433. JJBiener - 7/23/2000 5:53:04 PM
Icarus - Kansas is back? I saw them in concert back in the 70's. It was a great concert. They did a 15 minute version of Song for America with an incredible violin solo in the middle. I believe they were on their Point of No Return tour at the time.
BTW, Nice wings. Did you make them yourself?
2434. PelleNilsson - 7/23/2000 7:43:21 PM
Herbi Hancock played to rave reviews at the Stockholm Jazz Festival this weekend.
Three other, what shall I call them, icons? relics? fossils? are touring here: Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry and Little Richard. Critics say Jerry Lee at least shows occasional signs of life. I saw them all in the 60's. Those were the days.
2435. JJBiener - 7/23/2000 9:45:51 PM
Pelle - I can't imagine Little Richard being lifeless. Say it ain't so. Chuck, I believe, is in his 70's and as far as I can tell, he has been dead for the last three years. He makes Keith Richards seem life-like.
2436. PelleNilsson - 7/23/2000 10:06:53 PM
JJ
I can only report what I read. But what I read could well be written by young twerps who don't really understand.
For me Little Richard came in just a notch below The Great One. Buddy Holly was a rather distant third.
2437. TheWizardofWhimsy - 7/26/2000 3:05:31 AM
2438. Cellar Door - 7/26/2000 3:13:04 AM
Mr. London should take the gaspipe and get it over with.
2439. TheWizardofWhimsy - 7/26/2000 3:17:18 AM
LOL! Gee Cellar, I was tryin' to provoke! (I still think it should be addressed.)
2440. TheWizardofWhimsy - 7/26/2000 3:18:43 AM
Hey, btw, what show on E! were you on. I watched, but no Cellar.
2441. Uzmakk - 7/26/2000 3:33:06 AM
Wiz:
re:American Beauty
My comment remains, not that it was a bad movie, but that it was billed.... that hollywood and the critics put the thing head and shoulders above everything else. Pathetic. Perhaps it was head and shoulders above everything else. It doesn't say much for the output of Hollywood.
Also, during the scene where Real Estate Woman does the King an elderly couple left the theatre. Were they shocked? Perhaps, but I expect it was because they were tired of having their good thing depicted in the typical tawdry Hollywood terms.The voice of Cellar is heard from the back of the theatre, "Hooray for the tawdry, the ultimate fantasy."
2442. TheWizardofWhimsy - 7/26/2000 3:58:43 AM
Uz- That's the thing about art -- it is a reflection of reality and reflections are usually determined by the surface being mirrored upon. I think that movie mirrors a lot of misery endemic to the so called American dream. It also tends to condense and distill those miseries for dramatic affect. But I can see how it would be hard to watch for a lot of people in our culture. I would compare it to Altman's "Nashville."
2443. Uzmakk - 7/26/2000 4:09:03 AM
Furthermore, there are enough real stories heard through the grapevine which would indicate that American Beauty is not a far out depiction of a certain reality. Ofcourse it is the tawdry hollywoodians depicting the worst they can come up with. I much preferred Metroland -- a far better depiction of a different reality.
2444. Uzmakk - 7/26/2000 4:19:28 AM
But anyway, I enjoyed American Beauty. I watch that kind of shit and I say to myself, "Uzmakk, you are magnificent."
2445. Uzmakk - 7/26/2000 4:20:34 AM
i.e., I watch what is depicted
2446. Cellar Door - 7/26/2000 4:37:13 AM
I was on "Assignment E!: Gay Hollywood." I'm sure they'll repeat it.
Actually I didn't care for "American Beauty" all that much, though Conrad Hall's work was great and producer Bruce Cohen is adorable! (I have this thing for short, boyish, well-proportioned, incredibly wealthy and successful Hollywood bigwigs.)
2447. DaveM - 7/26/2000 2:20:01 PM
I went to Madam's Organ last night to listen to the house bluegrass band. They were really impressive. I have been listening to random Bluegrass musice (mostly Bill Monroe and Garcia/Grisman) most of the night.
I have grown really fond of Garcia/Grisman's Shady Grove.
2448. arkymalarky - 7/26/2000 5:08:41 PM
I love Dave Grisman. How do you like Bela Fleck?
2449. DaveM - 7/26/2000 5:14:50 PM
I saw Bela Fleck in concert in March. He was awesome, as usual.
2450. arkymalarky - 7/26/2000 5:23:52 PM
My brother is a musician who plays a lot of bluegrass, who started out playing banjo but now plays guitar a lot. If I remember right, he placed fifth in banjo and second in flat-picking years ago at the national competition in Kansas. He stands in awe of Bela Fleck, but I don't know if he's ever gotten to see him live.
2451. DaveM - 7/26/2000 5:33:10 PM
Bela Fleck is not just a bluegrass musician, though - he is into the pop scene with Dave Matthews (that is how I first heard of him) and he plays classical guitar, I think.
My family was not musically inclined at all. We didn't have any instruments in the house, my parents didn't listen to music, my older sibling didn't play anything (I have an 18 year old brother who plays bass guitar, but the social gulf between us is much greater than four years), and I didn't even own a radio until I went away to college. Since then, I have been trying to find myself musically; I have really been all over the board. It's kind of funny though, because both my older (24 yr old) brother and I have sort of converged on the same two scenes - jazz and bluegrass. It must be in our genes.
I will confess, though, that I also really like Ani Difranco and some other angry girl music.
Mandolin plays bluegrass, I think.
2452. arkymalarky - 7/26/2000 5:46:47 PM
"Bela Fleck is not just a bluegrass musician, though -"
Oh I know that; in fact, I wouldn't call him a bluegrass musician. It's what he does with the banjo--an instrument that was never really seen to have any versatility before he came along, that I know of-- especially with fusion, that's so amazing. Before him, banjo= bluegrass, period. I guess you could say something like that with Grisman and the mandolin, but not to the degree, since the mandolin has been used in other types of music (I always think of Rod Stewart, which imo isn't really a good thing. But for jazz and bluegrass, they have developed a genre of modern music that combines the two in unbelievable ways. I'm not nearly as up on music as my brother, though. We have a lot of old stuff, but when my husband went back to college about ten years ago we got out of the habit of buying the little luxuries like music and red meat (g), and I haven't gotten back into buying new music since then.
PS--I do not like angry girl music, and I lament the turn female vocalists have taken of late. Some of you younger folks can come in and castigate me for that, I guess. I personally think what's-her-dip ought to be shot for redoing Melanie's Candles In the Wind.
2453. arkymalarky - 7/26/2000 5:47:04 PM
"Bela Fleck is not just a bluegrass musician, though -"
Oh I know that; in fact, I wouldn't call him a bluegrass musician. It's what he does with the banjo--an instrument that was never really seen to have any versatility before he came along, that I know of-- especially with fusion, that's so amazing. Before him, banjo= bluegrass, period. I guess you could say something like that with Grisman and the mandolin, but not to the degree, since the mandolin has been used in other types of music (I always think of Rod Stewart, which imo isn't really a good thing. But for jazz and bluegrass, they have developed a genre of modern music that combines the two in unbelievable ways. I'm not nearly as up on music as my brother, though. We have a lot of old stuff, but when my husband went back to college about ten years ago we got out of the habit of buying the little luxuries like music and red meat (g), and I haven't gotten back into buying new music since then.
PS--I do not like angry girl music, and I lament the turn female vocalists have taken of late. Some of you younger folks can come in and castigate me for that, I guess. I personally think what's-her-dip ought to be shot for redoing Melanie's Candles In the Rain, dammit.
2454. arkymalarky - 7/26/2000 5:47:33 PM
Sorry about the double-post, but Elton John channeled the first one.
2455. PelleNilsson - 7/26/2000 7:23:15 PM
DaveM
Since then, I have been trying to find myself musically.
That's profound.
2456. PelleNilsson - 7/26/2000 7:32:06 PM
DaveM
Since then, I have been trying to find myself musically.
That's profound.
2457. PelleNilsson - 7/26/2000 7:32:54 PM
Sorry.
2458. JJBiener - 7/26/2000 8:46:53 PM
DaveM - my older (24 yr old) brother
You mean you are only 20 years old? I could tell from your posts you were young and naive, but I had no idea you were that young. It does explain a great deal.
2459. JJBiener - 7/27/2000 12:29:06 AM
People have been asking to hear some clips from Just Water, so let's give this a try. This is in mp3 format.
Cold Woman Blues is an original written by yours truly.
I was going to upload a couple of more, but this was a big enough hassle for today.
2460. Don S. - 7/27/2000 1:12:49 AM
Hey, mind if I make that available on Napster? (At least until midnight tomorrow.)
2461. RosettaStone - 7/27/2000 1:28:09 AM
Does the song start as "What's the matter woman....?"
Took 23 minutes to download but it swings. Nice piano and harp. I love blues.
2462. JJBiener - 7/27/2000 4:40:12 AM
Rosie - It starts out (as many good blues tunes do), "Once I had a woman"
2463. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 2:01:00 AM
I tried to download the song and my computer wouldn't let me. Something about not being able to find the file.
2464. DaveM - 7/28/2000 3:08:06 AM
JJ -
I'd rather be young and naive than old and obtuse. I am 22, as I have said many times both here and in the fray (with years subtractd from my age appropriately).
2465. DaveM - 7/28/2000 3:09:37 AM
Oh yeah - the point of my last post (which was not actually to insult), was to let you know that I get
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /myband/justwater/Cold_Woman.mp3 on this server.
when I try to access your song. I am interested in hearing it.
2466. JJBiener - 7/30/2000 6:34:30 AM
Dave, Arky - I'll try to find a better spot for the song. I have some others that I want to upload as well.
Does anyone know a good site with free space and a streaming mp3 server?
2467. rubberducky - 7/30/2000 10:01:41 PM
went to an 80s fest thing on Friday night at the Columbus area Ampitheater. call me crazy, but wouldn't one expect to hear, i dunno, 80s music??
they played a bunch of new shit. and then, towards the end of their set, played 80s songs. what a wash. the 2 (of 3) bands that i saw were flock of seagulls & wang chung.
oh well, i got my money's worth with my free ticket.
2468. Jenerator - 7/31/2000 5:15:14 PM
Take the Internet Addiction Quiz in the Internet Thread!!
2469. marshame - 7/31/2000 5:58:02 PM
toys
2470. KuligintheHooligan - 8/2/2000 3:35:32 PM
I have been trying to find a song that I have heard on the radio here but they never state who the artist is. The song's chorus has the distinct voice of U2's Bono, but I can't find the song on any of their albums.
The song's refrains are in quick time, "you're better than the keys to a brand new lincoln, better than..." Every verse has "better than" followed by the comparison.
The chorus has Bono singing "Share your love with me tonight. I wanna feel that love."
Because it is being played currently on the radio here, I tend to doubt that it is an old song.
If someone could point me to the specific song and album I would appreciate it. Thanks.
2471. KuligintheHooligan - 8/2/2000 3:37:41 PM
I also became a Napster "client" this past weekend. Downloaded about a dozen tunes since that time. Of particular note was YYZ by Rush, the only song by the group that I didn't have on CD. That is, the only song I still wanted to have (I don't mean to imply that I own all their songs).
2472. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2000 9:30:05 PM
Just hear 'Sentimental Journey' with Les Brown and Doris Day. Took me back a long time.
2473. KuligintheHooligan - 8/4/2000 10:41:55 PM
Well, I did something somewhat easier than posting in the Mote (and obviously more fruitful) concerning the tune I was seeking. I called the radio station and asked. In fact, they even played it for me about 10 minutes later. It is "So much Better" by Evan Olson. Never heard of the guy, but like the song.
2474. JudithAtHome - 8/4/2000 11:03:27 PM
marshame:
Get yourself over to the Dallas Museum of Art; they are running an exhibit of fine china and dinnerware from the past 100 years or so. Lots of neat looking things in the article from our paper today.
2475. EricCartman - 8/5/2000 4:54:17 AM
Kuligin Message # 2471:
I'm surprised that you don't have a copy of Moving Pictures. There's also a pretty good live version of YYZ on the last live CD.
Meaningless trivia question: what is the significance of the title, "YYZ"?
2476. PelleNilsson - 8/5/2000 11:30:13 AM
I thought I had posted this. Maybe it ended up in some other thread. Try again.
A tribute to an American cultural icon
2477. KuligintheHooligan - 8/5/2000 4:38:39 PM
Eric,
I had Moving Pictures on album and then cassette, but never got around to buying it on CD. And then it seemed that the best songs from the album were on the "Chronicles" CD anyway, except YYZ of course.
As to the meaning of YYZ, I have always wondered but haven't a clue! I don't even know where to begin in taking an intelligent guess.
2478. EricCartman - 8/7/2000 3:11:49 AM
Kuligin:
"YYZ" is the three-letter code for Toronto's Pearson Airport (like San Francisco's "SFO"). Supposedly the percussion intro is those letters in Morse Code, but I have no idea if that's actually true.
2479. marshame - 8/7/2000 3:18:29 AM
Judith,
The exhibit is everyday dishware, kind of a catalogue of contemporary twentieth century via dishes and t.v. trays. My daughter introduced me to the world of Sevres, while in England. She's more knowledgable with Dresden and Meissen porcelain cherubim (her collection), but she has spawned in me a greater interest in fine porcelain. Someday I too will have a peau-de-creme collection!
2480. marshame - 8/7/2000 3:19:33 AM
Excuse me, that should be POT-de creme. Otherwise, I don't need any more skin cream collections!
2481. KuligintheHooligan - 8/7/2000 3:46:22 PM
A very interesting (and strange) bit of trivia Eric. Thanks!
2482. EricCartman - 8/8/2000 4:05:48 AM
Kuligin:
I don't know how interesting it is, but it is somewhat peculiar.
2483. Don S. - 8/9/2000 11:16:07 PM
LARCENY UPDATE!
Some recent acquisitions, courtesy of the fine people in the Napster community:
2484. JJBiener - 8/10/2000 6:00:36 AM
Don - At least you acknowledge it as theft instead of rationalizing it away. That is a start, anyway.
2485. Cellar Door - 8/10/2000 6:01:43 AM
Which Blossom Dearie tracks?
2486. Don S. - 8/10/2000 6:43:21 AM
Cellar:
Always True to You In My Fashion
Doop-Doo-De-Doop (A Doodlin' Song)
Down With Love
Give Him The Ooh-La-La
I Like London In The Rain
I Walk A Little Faster
I Won't Dance
If I Were A Bell
It Might As Well Be Spring (in French)
Johnny One Note
Manhattan
Rhode Island Is Famous For You
Surrey With The Fringe On Top
Teach Me Tonight
Thou Swell
Wait Till You See Her
I'll mention that I actually purchased her latest CD, if it makes JJ happy.
2487. Don S. - 8/10/2000 6:44:49 AM
I left two off the list: a duet with Lyle Lovett that I didn't like too much, and her "Schoolhouse Rock" tune (the file I downloaded was truncated).
2488. phillipdavid - 8/10/2000 4:39:12 PM
A nice site: NPR Jazz online.
2489. Cellar Door - 8/10/2000 4:46:39 PM
"Rhode Island Is Famous For You" is one of my favorite songs.
2490. Don S. - 8/10/2000 11:35:45 PM
I'd never heard or heard of that song before, Cellar. Couldn't resist the title, though.
2491. Cellar Door - 8/11/2000 5:03:42 PM
It's by Schwartz and Dietz from a revue of theirs called "Inside U.S.A."
2492. bloodnfire - 8/12/2000 2:20:27 PM
Pelle, thanks for the link to the Liberace book, and on to a tour of his museum. I enjoyed his entertainment very much, and thought (and still think) him to have been a very kind and gifted man.
2493. bloodnfire - 8/12/2000 2:33:55 PM
Message # 2393. (JJBiener referring to Arky's previous post) - "Technically they might be flashy and would impress a local crowd, but to be at the top of musical success when so many really fabulous musicians and vocalists receive so much less broad notice (and many hardly any at all) is depressing".
I guess my comment regarding Liberace might evoke similar sentiments, because of course, while he was musically gifted, many equally gifted never enjoyed his fame and success. It all speaks to 'merchandizing', doesn't it ? Liberace's biographer writes that Elvis Presley made copious notes while sitting in the front seat of a Liberace performance, then 20 years later coming back with much of all that he'd learned and wowing the crowd.
The same truth regarding 'merchandizing' talent (much of it questionable imo), is even more true in the Rock and Heavy Metal genres.
2494. robertjayb - 8/16/2000 2:48:57 AM
2495. robertjayb - 8/16/2000 3:00:35 AM
.
The Other Brubeck...In 1983, Dave Brubeck's son, Darius, swapped a comfortable life in the US to risk his neck in South Africa's townships. But for him the connection between jazz and anti-apartheid seemed quite natural. By RW Johnson in The American Prospect.
"When Darius Brubeck was six, his father--the jazz musician Dave Brubeck--took him backstage to meet Louis Armstrong. Later he met the awesome Duke Ellington, too. "He was a huge presence. He was a sort of father figure to Dave," says Darius. But it was Miles Davis who spent the most time at the Brubecks' house in Oakland, California. "Everyone assumed that they were having profound conversations about jazz, but actually Dave and Miles had a passion for talking about boxing and basketball. One day the famous jazz critic (and later founding editor of Rolling Stone), Ralph Gleason, called by. He was a big power in the music business--everyone knew that. He was charmed by the sight of two such big jazz personalities just sitting around yarning about Archie Moore and Sugar Ray Robinson: in those days, not a lot of white guys had black friends round to their houses. So Gleason was impressed. 'You know,' he said to Miles, 'you could come over to my house too.' Miles always had to have the whole world on his terms and, having formed the impression that Gleason didn't know much about boxing or basketball, just said. 'Oh yeah, what for?'"
2496. robertjayb - 8/16/2000 3:01:38 AM
2497. robertjayb - 8/16/2000 3:02:02 AM
test
2498. EricCartman - 8/16/2000 6:27:38 AM
some more worthy recent Napster downloads:
Jason and the Scorchers -- Both Sides of the Line; Absolutely Sweet Marie; Self Sabotage (live double CD on order from Amazon)
Oingo Boingo -- Budweiser Commercial; Dead Man's Party
Masters of Reality -- T.U.S.A.; She Got Me
Pat Travers -- I Can't Quit You -- blistering cover of blues chestnut; very underrated guitarist
Biz Markie -- You Got What I Need
Chi-Lites -- Oh Girl -- as seen on TV ads for AM Gold
The Replacements -- Beer for Breakfast
The Tubes -- White Punks On Dope; What Do You Want From Life
Steve Martin -- Grandmother's Song -- thanks for the tip Ace; funny stuff
Been trying to find the parody of Rock Me Amadeus, but it's just about impossible; apparently no one on Napster has it. It's a good 'un, though -- Mike Elliot and Bud LaTour's (aka "Mike & Bud") Rock Me Jerry Lewis. Classic.
I have a cassette of the song somewhere, a mix tape that I recorded off the Dr. Demento show probably around 1983 or so. But I'm simply too lazy to hook up my 4-track (the only tape player I own), find the specific spot on the specific tape, remix and convert it to DAT, then convert it again to MIDI and then to MP3.
2499. Don S. - 8/19/2000 6:31:30 PM
Hey, EC
Right after I read your last post (five minutes ago), I found "Rock Me Jerry Lewis" on Napster. It's in my shared folder right now, so if you happen to be napstering while I'm online, you'll find it.
2500. JudithAtHome - 8/19/2000 8:37:56 PM
marsha:
I knew the exhibit was American dishware....just thought it was interesting given we are a country who took from everyone to develop our own style. I think the European porcelains and the Asian porcelains, which in my opinion are finer, are wonderfully done and beautiful to behold. But I also admire the American things...
And I guess I'm more of an "everyday dishware" kinda gal.....
2501. PelleNilsson - 8/19/2000 9:13:05 PM
What is a "nickolodeon" (sp?)? Another name for juke box or a different contraption?
I just heard Nat King Cole singing Latin American. Good (as everything Nat does) but amusing with that American pronounciation. Did he know Spanish at all? But he did master the rolling 'r' which few English speakers do.
2502. PsychProf - 8/19/2000 9:20:13 PM
This must be it Pelle...
The Story of Nickel O'Dean
" Back in the 3rd grade, I had a friend named Timmy O'Dean. The kid was kind of goofy, because you could go to him with a nickel in one hand, and a dime in the other. Your hands would be open, so both coins were clearly visible. No tricks or deception. Then you'd tell the young O'Dean that he may take one of the coins for himself. His choice would ALWAYS be the nickel! When asked why he chose the nickel, he'd say, "cause it's bigger." All the kids always got a laugh, and the young O'Dean kid became known as "Nickel" O'Dean.
Not until later did we find out that Nickel O'Dean was pulling a fast one. He made the tragic mistake of telling a close school friend about his scam. Nickel explained that by choosing the nickel, the other kids would laugh and pull the same experiment, time after time, thus insuring that Nickel would keep getting nickels. As you may have guessed, Nickel's friend blabbed to all the other kids, and that was the end of Nickel O'Dean's money-making days! So now the legend of Nickel O'Dean lives on! "
2503. PelleNilsson - 8/19/2000 9:54:39 PM
And the Andrew Sisters recorded a song in his honour.
2504. JJBiener - 8/20/2000 4:46:06 AM
Pelle - The nickelodean precedes the jukebox and even recorded music. It was closer to a coin-operated player piano with drums, horns, etc. incorporated into it. The song information was encoded onto metal disks or cylinders in a series of holes corresponding to the proper instrument and note. Compressed air or steam was used to drive the mechanism.
2505. rubberducky - 8/20/2000 7:04:15 PM
FYI:
Got the new Everclear CD. very good. if you like Wonderful (the current single), then you'll like the rest of it.
2506. PelleNilsson - 8/20/2000 7:55:23 PM
JJ
Thank you.
Was it possible to choose different tunes? If so, was there a mechanism that changed the discs or cylinders, or did the thing require an operator?
2507. EricCartman - 8/22/2000 7:55:36 AM
Don Message # 2499:
I don't know how you found the thing so quickly; I tried every permutation I could think of, and it just kept coming up with Jerry Lee Lewis. As if.
Anyway, one person finally had it last night, so I got it. Pretty cool, but somehow I think it was much funnier back in 1986.
2508. Cellar Door - 8/23/2000 6:13:40 AM
GAYS RULE!
2509. grannypatsy - 8/25/2000 4:27:11 AM
Hey cellar; I'm noticing your spam in various threads and assuming you're referring to the survivor...I think he's up on game theory. still I guess he rules.
2510. JJBiener - 8/25/2000 5:03:12 AM
Pelle - I don't think most nickelodeons played more than a single tune without assistance from someone to change the disk or cylinder that controlled it. I do remember seeing a few which had a crude mechanism for changing disks without outside help, but I think they were the exception rather than the rule.
I apologize if this info seems a biy sketchy, but it is based on old memories some reaching back to childhood. There is undoubtedly better info available on the web.
2511. Cellar Door - 8/25/2000 6:33:03 AM
One for the hom(o) team, patsy!
2512. PelleNilsson - 8/25/2000 10:30:52 AM
This is a Wurlitzer Style 30A Mandolin PianOrchestra, manufactured by J.D. Philipps & Sons, Bockenheim, Frankfurt-am-Main, Germany ca. 1911.
Specification
2513. PelleNilsson - 8/25/2000 10:36:01 AM
Instrumentation
A high grade (61-note) Piano, with Mandolin attachment
2514. JudithAtHome - 8/25/2000 5:37:28 PM
This afternoon, we are going to the Kimball to see the Stroganoff collection, from the palace of a Russian noble family...for some reason, this is making me excited to see the artwork but hungry, too.
2515. PelleNilsson - 8/25/2000 10:03:24 PM
Will they serve the famous Bouef?
2516. JJBiener - 8/25/2000 10:11:20 PM
Pelle - I am not sure if that beast qualifies as a nickelodean, but it is certainly an impressive bit of engineering for the time. How was programmed? Very carefully.
2517. PelleNilsson - 8/25/2000 10:41:00 PM
Yes. But somehow live music had to be represented on the rolls who governed all these "instruments". I think the device is ingenious but not necessarily impressive. The mechanical engineers of the time could do almost anything. Think of Babbage's calculation machine of the late 19th century.
2518. JJBiener - 8/27/2000 8:14:28 AM
Pelle - The notes were represented by the holes in the disk or cylinder. Each position represented a note on the piano or other instrument. If a large number of instruments were incorporated, the disk could be rather large. If a holes was present at a particular position, the air forced through that hole played the appropriate note. The length of the hole, determined the length of the note. In some cases, the width of the hole determined the dynamics.
2519. PelleNilsson - 8/27/2000 6:47:15 PM
JJ
I'm an engineer. I understand the principles involved. What I ask myself (and you, being an authority on these devices), is how the original template for the disk or cylinder was produced.
2520. Uzmakk - 8/29/2000 5:25:39 PM
2517. PelleNilsson - 8/26/00 9:41:00 PM
Yes. But somehow live music had to be represented on the rolls who governed all these "instruments". I think the device is ingenious but not necessarily impressive. The mechanical engineers of the time could do almost anything. Think of Babbage's calculation machine of the late 19th century.
Or consider the shaft of the haysweep.
2521. PelleNilsson - 8/29/2000 5:54:19 PM
That's the most ingenious of all. I remember I panicked a little down in Maputo when I realized that, with your eye, you would quickly seee that it couldn't work in the first place.
2522. PelleNilsson - 8/29/2000 5:54:34 PM
That's the most ingenious of all. I remember I panicked a little down in Maputo when I realized that, with your eye, you would quickly see that it couldn't work at all.
2523. Uzmakk - 8/29/2000 6:03:47 PM
...with your eye...
You flatter me, sir. I assure you that my eye is not unusually sharp.
2524. Uzmakk - 8/29/2000 6:44:09 PM
Pelle:
My entry in the Mote Parade is #24807 in the Cafe incase it gets lost.
2526. PelleNilsson - 8/29/2000 7:38:08 PM
The empty post is a mistake of mine.
Uzmakk
Nothing escapes the eye of Odin.
2527. Jenerator - 8/31/2000 4:52:49 AM
Hunkmakk,
The gold leaf was a nice touch.
2528. Uzmakk - 8/31/2000 7:03:51 PM
Why, thank you, Jenerator.
2529. Uzmakk - 8/31/2000 9:27:25 PM
btw, Pelle
Little escapes the eye of Uzmakk.
2530. Indiana Jones - 9/1/2000 7:34:11 PM
All that Jazz is one of my all-time favorite movies, and I finally bought a copy of the soundtrack. It's a very nice CD for people who like to listen to a variety of tracks without having to load up the changer and put the player on shuffle:
2531. Cellar Door - 9/1/2000 7:40:48 PM
"All That Jazz" is a movie that took me a long time to warm-up to. Mainly because I've always liked Fosse when he was less self-conscious ie. "My Sister Eileen," "Kiss Me Kate," "Give a Girl a Break."
"Cabaret" is almost too clever. What finally won me over to "All That Jazz" is what has become one of my favorite moments in movies -- Rot Scheider walking through the stairwells of the hospital, his IV's trailing out of his arms looks up into the camera and says "What's the matter, folks? Don't you like musical comedy?"
2532. Cellar Door - 9/1/2000 7:45:24 PM
I knew Anthony Holland, who played the composer of the musical-within-the-film.
When he reached the most ainful stages of AIDS he comitted suicide -- with considerable care.
Apparently he'd been saving up the pills he'd need to overdose, but didn't take them until he was in a good mood. Everyone who saw him in the last 24 hours of his life reports him being in high spirits.
He left instructions to the ambulance drivers as to how to handle his body. This was still the period when people were deathly afraid of coming anywhere near anyone who was HIV+.
He was a very brilliant man. Never knew if he got what he'd wanted, but he left a lot in his wake.
2533. Indiana Jones - 9/1/2000 8:00:44 PM
Cellar: Great line (I always interpreted it to be an "appeal to heaven" sort of thing, because it comes during the "bargaining" phase of Kubler-Ross's five stages of death).
I just love the movie. Sure, it's an incredible ego trip, but Fosse admits it.
I even liked Star 80, as uncomfortable as that is to watch, because of the sense of a perfectionist at work. What I like about that kind of film (when you know the director has paid so much attention to every little detail) is that you can watch it more than once and pick up many things you missed the first time.
For example, how in All that Jazz Fosse does so much "business" with the Standup (the film Gideon is editing). If you notice, he stops the editing process whenever the comedian comes to the words "I accept," which is of course the final stage of Kubler-Ross and the one Gideon isn't quite ready to move to.
I think the climax of the film is when Gideon is being held so tightly by his daughter, Ben Vereen looks on intensely, and Gideon tells his wife "At least I won't have to lie to you anymore." I think it's then that death finally has him.
2534. Indiana Jones - 9/1/2000 8:00:48 PM
Cellar: Was Anthony Holland an actor in real life, or a composer/musician?
Outside of Scheider, he probably got to deliver more funny lines than anyone:
Gideon turns his recently composed number into a sex orgy: "Now Sinatra will never do it!"
Someone remarks it's colder than a witch's tit: "You've never even seen a witch's tit."
And of course he was on the receiving end of: "Joe, you've left me without a soprano. I have to have a soprano."
Gideon: "See that guy wearing the mascara. He'll hit the high notes for you."
2535. Cellar Door - 9/1/2000 8:07:53 PM
2536. Cellar Door - 9/1/2000 8:08:17 PM
Tony was an actor. Here are his movie credits.
He was part of the original "Second City." Joan Rivers always gave him credit for teaching her how muster up enough self-confidence to actually get up on stage.
2537. RosettaStone - 9/7/2000 2:50:02 AM
Macy Gray, a truly remarkable singer, just won the MTV award for best new artist.
2538. RosettaStone - 9/11/2000 1:35:19 PM
From the Washington Post, Sept. 11, MUSIC column; Headline: Peter Green and John Mayall, author: Dave McKenna
Nothing resembling another British blues invasion seems to be looming, but there's clearly still some life in the genre. Two pioneering acts from the first wave, Peter Green and John Mayall, drew a packed house Saturday to the State Threatre in Falls Church, Virginia.
Headliner Green, a founding member of Fleetwood Mac, was perhaps the most mystical, Robert Johnson-like player among the bounteous crop of white bluesmen to come out of England in the mid-1960s. Worn down by drugs and depression, Green--responsible for such dark classics as "Black Magic Woman" and "Oh, Well"--dropped out of sight three decades ago. Though changes in management and medication have him plugged in again, he tours rarely.
Green, 53 and already inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, doesn't have much left to give musically. He let Splinter Group band mate Nigel Watson handle most of the vocals and lead guitar work.
(continue)
2539. RosettaStone - 9/11/2000 1:43:04 PM
Though Green was economical with his notes even in his heyday, his playing Saturday on such originals as "Rattlesnake Shake" and "Albatross" lacked the punch that brought him his early renown. But fans, most of whom were old enough to enjoy Green's first star turn, seemed content just to see him back onstage. The loyalty energized Green, and his playing on Don Nix's sinister "Going Down" suggested the heroic powers he once possessed.
Green's mentor, John Mayall, opened the show, backed by yet another version of his Bluesbreakers, the franchise that launched the careers of guitar gods Eric Clapton, Mick Taylor and Green, among others. Mayall on keyboards, looked hardy, and his frenetic scat singing on the classic "Room to Move" reminded fans why the British blues scene so burgeoned in the first place.
-30-
2540. theDiva - 9/11/2000 2:04:28 PM
Stone, did you go to that show? They were playing a bunch of Mayall on PFW's Blues Plate Special late last week.
2541. RosettaStone - 9/11/2000 2:48:47 PM
No, Diva. But I did see blues singer Tracy Nelson this summer. She used to be the lead singer of a band called Mother Earth.
2542. theDiva - 9/11/2000 3:19:48 PM
I've heard some of her stuff. She has one hell of a voice.
2543. RosettaStone - 9/12/2000 1:44:29 AM
...and one hell of a body. About three hundred pounds in a 5'3" frame. But she's quite a singer.
But that's not why I'm posting. I finally found something produced by my tax dollars on NPR radio worth reading and listening to.
It's called the 100 most important American musical works of the 20th century and it's very interactive.
Let's see if this link works. If not, someone else activiate it and tell me what I did wrong. As Judith might say, I'm sick of dead links. I want them hot.
2544. RosettaStone - 9/12/2000 1:47:31 AM
What happened?
The link code is www.npr.org/program/specials/vote/list100.
(with http:// in front of it and .html> behind
2545. ChristinO - 9/12/2000 2:15:19 AM
I tried to cut and paste to the address and the link isn't there anymore. When did you last use it? Could they have shut it down after tallying the vote and deciding the program?
This is what I found instead. It's the beginning of a year long program that grew out of the voting list.
2546. RosettaStone - 9/12/2000 2:53:04 AM
The NPR link, worth the effort to get it hot, looks like this at TableTalk
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/vote/list100.html
(there are the < in front of http and > behind html
2547. arkymalarky - 9/12/2000 3:26:49 AM
2548. KurtMondaugen - 9/12/2000 3:30:53 AM
Myself, I would have picked "4'33"" and left it at that.
2549. RosettaStone - 9/12/2000 4:16:34 AM
Thanks, Arky, my Arkansas angel. But what did I do wrong?
Notice how NPR uses "Good Vibrations" but puts up the visual of the Beach Boy's "Pet Sounds." The song wasn't on that album.
2550. theDiva - 9/12/2000 2:55:31 PM
my God, that's actually a respectable list (though I question the inclusion of anything by Nirvana, old fart that I am). I'm stunned. They even picked the best version of 'Fine and Mellow'.
Jeeves, my smelling salts. I am overcome.
2551. RosettaStone - 9/12/2000 3:01:49 PM
As opposed to we shall overcome, Diva?
To show you how stupid I am, I had never heard of the "4:33" sound- of-silence piece. And no wonder. I'm not an intellectual.
2552. theDiva - 9/12/2000 3:06:00 PM
I've never heard it either, but I'm not much on John Cage, either.
I need to examine the list more carefully, I'm sure I'll find glaring omissions. But it looks good at first glance.
2553. theDiva - 9/12/2000 3:06:36 PM
apparently I, too, am not an intellectual. Two eithers in one sentence. Somewhere my father is cringing.
2554. RosettaStone - 9/12/2000 3:08:17 PM
It's wonderful and well worth my tax dollars. I like the fact that you can listen to the whole NPR audio report.
BTW, TT has its own thread on the list in their excellent Music folder.
2555. angel-five - 9/12/2000 3:11:26 PM
I'm not an intellectual.
You don't say.
2556. theDiva - 9/12/2000 3:12:47 PM
How would you like for me to smack you in the puss?
2557. theDiva - 9/12/2000 6:12:05 PM
RIP, Mr. T
Just saw him at the Benny Golson Blues Alley gig back in March, too. Dang.
2558. arkymalarky - 9/14/2000 12:20:49 AM
Rose,
I don't know what you did. I was going to do it earlier and didn't get the html on the end, so it came up like Christin's and I didn't post it.
2559. Don S. - 9/14/2000 7:42:12 AM
Diva, I turned on the car radio yesterday morning on my way to work and caught a bit of "Speedball and part of an interview with Turrentine on "Morning Edition." Isn't this nice, I thought to myself. Then I heard the news. SIGH
Now, everytime I hear a snippet of some music I like on NPR, I'm going to panic.
2560. JudithAtHome - 9/14/2000 6:24:10 PM
Tomorrow night we and 10 of our closest friends are going to the theatre to see 2 one act plays: Vampire Lesbians of Sodom and Theodora, the Bitch Queen of Byzantium .
2561. theDiva - 9/14/2000 6:33:30 PM
Don
Ya gotta wonder, every time you hear actual jazz on NPR. They're either playing it as background or as dirge.
2562. ChristinO - 9/14/2000 10:07:46 PM
Deev,
I've just skimmed the list but here's my first take:
Out of only FIVE women on a list of 100 I noticed that three of those five are country and western singers. What about Billie & Ella? The Supremes? Janice Joplin? Karen Carpenter?
Whether one likes the music or not the 70's and 80's were huge on Arena Rock bands like Kiss, Black Sabbath, ACDC and...ahem...Styx. There isn't a single song representing this genre although I must say that it was good to see the Ramones recognized for Punk and Talking Heads for semi-new wave.
I'm also wondering why Star Wars didn't make it for film scores since it's one of the most recognized pieces of music tied to arguably one of the biggest film phenomenons of all time.
2563. theDiva - 9/14/2000 10:19:43 PM
Chris
Biilie's there, represented by Fine and Mellow. And if I'm not mistaken, it's musical works, which I'm interpreting to mean written by, not performed by, and Ella, though a fabulous singer, didn't write anything of note that I can recall.
And do you really want me to comment on the Supremes? I'm workin on sainthood here, don't mess up my groove, girl.
2564. glendajean - 9/14/2000 10:26:59 PM
Did anybody notice that KurtMondaugen posted? Welcome back, Kurt.
Went to a lecture last night on the genius of Gershiwn and the writing of Porgy and Bess. Very interesting. There is a cd of Gershwin conducting an orchestra with the P&G music in a studio, the first time he had ever heard this music played with the orchestra.
2565. theDiva - 9/14/2000 10:38:21 PM
yes, we greeted him with rose petals and huzzahs in the Anniversary thread.
2566. ChristinO - 9/14/2000 10:52:24 PM
Deev,
You're right, I missed Fine and Mellow. I'm much relieved! Also I just saw Bessie Smith's performance of St. Louis Blues by W.C. Handy. So that gives us eight out of 100.
It is musical works as written rather than performed, but Patsy Cline didn't write Crazy and Aretha didn't write Respect. (Not that I believe either of those shouldn't be on the list, mind you)
I'm not a big fan of The Supremes---Diana Ross gives me a rash---but they were the biggest girl group of that musical era. It just seems a bit one-sided is all. Granted there weren't as many women making and performing music, so I expect that there would be more men than women on the list, but this still seems a little extreme.
2567. theDiva - 9/14/2000 10:58:04 PM
Chris
hey, if it were up to me, it'd be 90% jazz, which would mean it'd be largely male as it is now. I haven't looked at it since that first day, but I remember being mightily impressed that they thought to include Kind of Blue, for example. Can't remember the Ellington and Basie works, though.
IAC, I don't know, the paucity of women wasn't the first thing that hit me. I just remember thinking, Nirvana? Yipes.
2568. theDiva - 9/14/2000 10:59:40 PM
anyway, there's this TEENAGER standing at my elbow and pestering me to use the craptop, so I'm outta here for now.
2569. ChristinO - 9/14/2000 11:03:05 PM
hahahahaha!
HI Gracie!!!
2570. ChristinO - 9/15/2000 12:38:47 AM
Hey, did anyone notice that Take My Hand, Precious Lord is on the list twice?
2571. Don S. - 9/15/2000 12:49:51 AM
Take Both of My Hands, Precious Lord.
2572. ChristinO - 9/15/2000 12:51:33 AM
Just don't take my wallet.
2573. ChristinO - 9/15/2000 12:51:47 AM
Or my record collection.
2574. JudithAtHome - 9/15/2000 5:33:23 AM
Okay, that's it...if I get no reaction with a title like Vampire Lesbians of Sodom I think I'll just toss in the damned towel.
2575. theDiva - 9/15/2000 8:44:02 AM
Judith
That one's actually an oldie. I kinda remember it playing at a teeny theatre in the West Village back when I was in NY.
2576. JudithAtHome - 9/15/2000 6:03:35 PM
I know it's an oldie but I think it might be a first for this town, especially since it's being performed in an old Catholic convent...I'm fairly certain this wasn't the sort of entertainment the nuns were envisioning when they lived there.
I live in a place that until just a few years ago, the police would be in the parking lot of the Unitarian church where mainly gays were attending; they were there to write down license plate numbers. The fact that a group of gay people has managed to create a theatre troupe and stage successful runs of plays like this in this provincial a city is something pretty neat and something I want to support.
2577. JudithAtHome - 9/15/2000 6:06:01 PM
Of course, I mean the gays were attending church and the police were writing down plate numbers; I worded that sentence awkwardly.
2578. RosettaStone - 9/15/2000 9:47:05 PM
If you were looking for a reaction from your cyberfriends on taking "ten of our closest friends" to see 2 one-act plays about sodomy, Judith, why did advocate the banning of cazart?
2579. JudithAtHome - 9/15/2000 10:01:12 PM
Rosetta:
I have no idea what you mean by linking Cazart to the words "plays", "friends", "sodomy", and "advocate" but evidently in that peasized area in your head you call a brain, it all comes together in perfect harmony.
2580. RosettaStone - 9/15/2000 11:31:22 PM
Just make sure that after you go to your 2 one-act plays about sodomy/lesbianism with Mr. Rectitude and "your ten closest friends" that you come right back here and give us a 500-word review.
As I say to my daughter when we're playing ping pong and she's missing her shots.
"Chop! chop!"
2581. DanDillon - 9/17/2000 4:46:14 AM
Some of the best live theater in the world happens in the middle of nowhere.
But if no one is there to see it, is it really live theater?
Nevermind that. The better question is why don't we recognize a phenomenon for what it is? We speak in grand metaphor and with great esteem when we speak of theater; we refer to it as a living thing, an evolving organism that itself is life-giving. We claim that we wouldn't be complete without it, its influence both emboldening and intoxicating. We assert that in the absence of theater, pure and wondrous, we would very likely have no reason to wake up in the morning.
Yet I would say it is much more than that. Live theater, in all its various forms, is indeed a living thing, and it is in fact life-giving; I don't intend to negate those grandiose, mildly hyperbolic declarations. But live theater is all of these things because of one simple truth: life itself is live theater. It's just a matter of perspective, you see.
This is not an original notion. Art imitating life - or is it life imitating art - has been thought and rethought since Aristotle's Poetics. But look around. Confirm what you think you already know. (Both a comforting and a necessary proposition in this time of deconstructed truths, semantic saturation, constant optical illusions, and institutionalized hypocrisy.) Remember that speeding car that blew past you the other day? Wasn't it satisfying to see the jerk/driver pulled over a mile down the road as you passed him? Some deep-rooted need to have your expectations about how the world works was fulfilled, right there with you in the driver's seat. Chekhov realizes the same satisfaction in his dictum: the gun on the end table in the first act must be fired before the final curtain. We expect it. If the gun goes unfired, we feel tricked. A red herring.
[cont.]
2582. DanDillon - 9/17/2000 4:46:50 AM
Now go further out into the world. Say, out into the middle of nowhere. The theater there gets much better. Look around again. You're on a rickety diesel-fueled bus full of folks who do not speak your native language. (Work with me here.) Some passengers are asleep. Some are animatedly conversing, though about what you have no idea. Some others are shielding themselves from the midday sun and the oppressive heat just on the other side of the glass. One male passenger in particular catches your attention. Above the din of the engine and through the bitter, distracting stench of the exhaust, you distinctly hear this man cackling. He is not talking to anyone, nor is he reading anything. He is simply looking in no particular direction, hands on his knees, half out of his seat, intermittently laughing his ass off. You can't help but to smirk and of course wonder who in the hell this nut is.
You begin to take his inventory. Older, almost elderly, so he's been around-he knows what funny is. Dressed fairly raggedly, so he also knows hardship. Bad teeth, uncombed hair, dirty hands and gravelly guffaw combine to give you the impression of a sort of vagrant/madman. Where could he be going? You're both on the same bus, certainly, but you have an undefeatable feeling that his destination is very different from yours. It must be. Right? You can't help but stare for a minute. Cranks like this are rare. That laugh….
This is a remarkable one-man show, this wordless monologue.
[cont.]
2583. DanDillon - 9/17/2000 4:47:06 AM
You've never seen someone unprovoked so oddly merry. As you watch this professional hysteric, you begin to envy him a bit. Hmm. Delusional might not be such a bad state of mind. Finally, you react politely by trying to divert your attention from the bedlamite, hoping that you don't break down into frenzied hilarity yourself. But you can't help it. You cock your head just so and force your eyes to the edges of their sockets. You want to see where this mad nomad is going. What a show. You barely suppress the urge to co-cackle.
And all the while, growling engine, annoying exhaust and spellbinding laughter, you haven't noticed the driver of the bus observing you and the hysterical man, making the two of you an ensemble. From his perspective, you're both actors on the same stage. Not solely the laughing man, but now you and he are leads in this traveling dumb show.
Bang.
2584. joezan - 9/17/2000 7:55:13 AM
Dillon, did you write that?
Excellent essay.
2585. JudithAtHome - 9/17/2000 5:13:58 PM
Thank you, Dan...that's the most enjoyable thing I've read in quite a while.
I've always thought of life as theatre...that way, one is never bored. If Act I is dull, there's always the chance that Act II will pick up.
2586. rubberducky - 9/17/2000 5:23:39 PM
meanwhile
picked up the new Bare Naked Ladies CD and it is pretty good. grows on you. i didn't care much for the single until i listened to it a few times, but that is a common phenomena.
anyhow, only one more day til Madonna's new one, so we'll see how that is.
2587. DanDillon - 9/17/2000 5:43:05 PM
joezan,
Yes, those are my words.
Judith,
Thanks for the generous praise.
2588. RosettaStone - 9/17/2000 10:05:52 PM
Driving home last night from Point Lookout, Ridge, MD, after a full day of charter-boat fishing with 15 Boy Scouts and their parents, the fathers in my van listened to the Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett on the car's CD.
The two-hour drive seemed like it took 20 minutes.
It's been a long time since I've listened to that record. I saw Jarrett once at Wolfs' Trap in Virginia hoping that he would sound as good as he did on that record, but alas, magic is hard to reproduce.
2589. quivver - 9/18/2000 7:33:16 AM
BNL's cover of When Doves Cry is particularly choice. I feel a need to play it right now.
aem.
2590. EricCartman - 9/19/2000 8:45:05 AM
Re: NPR Top 100 List of 20th Century American Music
Bit late getting on this one, but there are two major points I have to take issue with. (Yes, I simply have to. There is no other choice.) Typically I don't pay a lot of attention to "best of" lists, or understand why they exist besides to sell magazines, but I guess at the very least such encomia can inspire someone to try something new, or rediscover a long-forgotten old favorite.
Keeping that specific amount of list-making utility in mind, I am absolutely boggled (unless I missed it, and I don't think I did) that Frank Zappa is nowhere to be found on the list. Nowhere. No fucking where, folks. Ya got yer Ray Charles -- and lessee, are there a total of five or six words comprising What I Say? Do "Hey" and "Ho" each count as a word, or can we call them one? Yes, I can definitely see where this contributes to the greatness of American music.
Anyway, FZ. Seventy officially released albums, encompassing a vast palette of musical stylings. From doo-wop to disco, straight-ahead rock to odd-time hell, endless doo-doo jokes to scathing social commentary, rock guitar wankery to avant-garde classical. Thirty years of composing, over two days worth of official releases, and no mention.
But thank God What I Say and Hound Dog got their props. I'd bet my bottom dollar that if one were to poll musicians of any stripe as to their influences, it wouldn't even be close. Nobody would mention Ray Charles, and no one would mention Elvis on virtue of actual musical influence.
2591. EricCartman - 9/19/2000 8:50:31 AM
Okay, secondly, 4'43". I mean, soyburger? Excuse me? Since when is a guy sitting at a closed piano with a stopwatch considered music? Sounds more like a practical joke played by a senile, talentless coot on his high-society, music-hating benefactors.
Like that idiot Rauschenberg with his inspired tire-tread "paintings"; like Warhol filming his boyfriend sleeping for seven hours and calling it a "film"; like any number of retard postmodern "art" crap, from monochromatic paintings (you know, where the canvas is all one color and comes with a title like "Red #12"), to dung-spattered collages of vaginas; 4'43" revels in an unctuous hucksterism richly evocative of none other than P.T. Barnum.
Supposedly anything can be art -- all the artist has to do, figuratively, is put a "frame" around it. In principle, that's a good theory, as rule-breaking is essential to advancement of the craft. But that's precisely what 4'43", in its cynically contrived milieu, eschews -- craft. Technique. Study. Knowledge. Mastery of craft. The acquisition of skill, and the understanding of the craft that comes naturally with acquiring it.
2592. EricCartman - 9/19/2000 8:50:44 AM
The greatest, most lasting music embodies a sense of purpose and vision, and utilizes at least some amount of technical skill in realizing that vision. PoMo crap putatively attempts to "democratize" music, by completely disregarding the need for skill or craft, so that, literally, anyone can be a musician/composer.
Well, that's simply not true. You can't just become one (at least a good one) simply by saying you are one, any more than you can become a mechanic just by announcing to the world that you are a mechanic. It takes practice, and study, and commitment -- more than just a cynical notion that a guy with a stopwatch requires any sort of compositional ability. This is a case of attempting to take the middleman out of the loop -- but the middleman is actually doing all the work.
It's sad, but not surprising, that empty tripe like 4'43" gets the nod for the list. In its own way, perhaps it did have an effect on the musical culture. It let every jackass who was too impatient or fumble-fingered to learn an actual instrument know that they could get a random fart on a tape recorder, and someone would frame it and call it Art.
And though they'll never admit it, the artsy-fartsy contrivances surrounding this sort of nonsense are every bit as masturbatory as, say, the baroque guitar stylings of Yngwie Malmsteen (the mere mention of whom makes the pale Goth artsy-fartsies clutch their Cabaret Voltaire tapes ever tighter).
Which in turn means 4'43" paved the way for Yoko Ono. And just look where that got us. I've heard cats fuck with better harmony.
2593. KurtMondaugen - 9/21/2000 2:12:03 AM
If you wanted that rant to hold any water, you probably shouldn't have prefaced it with a defense of Frank Zappa.
2594. RosettaStone - 9/21/2000 5:01:04 AM
Zappa's music was dead even before he was. The only thing that Zappa did that had originality was that "Suzy Creamcheese" piece. And that's only because I was high the first time I heard it.
As John Lennon once said about The Mothers of Invention. Sitting on the shit can is the perfect symbol of Frank Zappa.
2595. Cellar Door - 9/21/2000 6:47:34 AM
I prefer the image of Frank giving you a swirly.
2596. EricCartman - 9/21/2000 8:24:41 AM
Mondaugen:
If you wanted that rant to hold any water, you probably shouldn't have prefaced it with a defense of Frank Zappa.
Probably not, and I can think of at least two reasons for that: 1) FZ was a Cage fan, and particularly liked 4'43" (which indicates to me that maybe FZ was lying when he said he never took drugs); 2) FZ did plenty of his own atonal experimentation. I'm not sure if you were thinking of those reasons in particular, but they're valid.
But I mentioned FZ because I cringe at the idea of a wonderfully arranged, unique piece of music like, say, Black Page #2, coming up short behind discount hootenanny music like What I Say, which just leaves me completely cold. And I stand by that -- I simply cannot imagine a serious overview of 20th Century American music and composers that doesn't even mention Zappa. But that probably goes hand-in-hand with my complete inability to grok those lists in the first place.
2597. EricCartman - 9/21/2000 8:26:46 AM
Now, the rant....well, ya got me there. Some things get me in full rant mode, and the idea that a guy with a stopwatch is "composed music" is one of the biggies. But I re-read what I wrote there, and I wouldn't change any of it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not so much of an elitist as to say that 4'43" couldn't be thought of as some sort of artistic expression. Art is what the artist wants it to be; that's fair.
But that doesn't make it "music", and ya gotta admit, it takes some real chutzpah for a guy to declare such a thing a "composition", a piece of "serious music". That requires the actual effort of creating something, not the studied pose of an in-joke.
Even a noisy punk band makes a tangible effort and produces something, so it's not as if I'm talking solely about technique and virtuosity when I refer to "craft". Craft is what makes the composer/musician a professional -- he does something that requires actual time and effort to understand and use, just like any other job.
2598. EricCartman - 9/21/2000 8:29:08 AM
My chief gripe with what little PoMo art I have experienced is that it completely ignores the idea of creating something new and interesting, and trades on "perceptions". "What do you think the artist meant by painting the entire canvas the same color of red?" "Buy my painting so I can afford more colors."
I dunno. Creating null, minimalist conversation pieces is certainly not a crime, but I find it odd that it gets considered "serious art", when a third-grader could do it. It's a cynical trade on perceptions, and hence seems rather manipulative to me. It's an abandonment of creation, a scam played on art-house trust-fund layabouts so that they can engage in their true passions -- subsidizing other layabouts and one-upping each other.
Guess I'm ranting again, but I would actually be interested to know why a guy sitting at a piano with a stopwatch has any real ćsthetic value, or displays any perceptible measure of any compositional talent, if you care to elucidate. I can understand someone perceiving "art" from it, but am baffled as to its supposed ineffability.
2599. EricCartman - 9/21/2000 8:30:56 AM
Stone:
My favorite FZ quote was by Grace Slick, of all people:
Frank Zappa is the most intelligent asshole I have ever met.
2600. EricCartman - 9/21/2000 8:47:58 AM
OK, rant over....for now. But as irritating as I find Cage's assault on my ćsthetic sensibilities, I also actually find it interesting, and am genuinely curious as to the appeal of a "serious music" piece which has no music.
(Curious on a purely qualitative level -- I have no interest in contemplating 4'43"'s "challenge" to what is definitionally considered "music". It's like saying that the naked emperor was merely "challenging" people's idea of what "clothes" were.)
Anyway, haven't played What's In the CD Player for awhile. Just for the sheer thrill of it, here goes:
Midnight Oil -- 20,000 Watt R.S.L. (greatest hits compilation)
On deck:
The Who --Live At Leeds (remastered edition with 8 bonus tracks)
Richard & Linda Thompson -- Shoot Out the Lights (props to CalGal for schooling me to that one)
Jeff Beck -- Jeff Beck's Guitar Shop
Bill Bruford -- One of a Kind
Voivod -- Nothingface
Faith No More -- Angel Dust
Al Green -- Greatest Hits
UFO -- Lights Out
Marshall Crenshaw -- debut album
Primus -- Sailing the Seas of Cheese
2601. KurtMondaugen - 9/21/2000 9:15:24 AM
"I simply cannot imagine a serious overview of 20th Century American music and composers that doesn't even mention Zappa."
Well, without going into detail regarding my feelings toward Zappa (which could be construed as unduly combatative given their distasteful), I guess the proper response should be more along the lines of: 'why in the hell do you think some NPR list is a 'serious overview'?
I will provide info, at least, if not illumination on Cage and perhaps the whole 'PoMo' thing tomorrow or soon after (although I fear I will be repeating myself for the nth time). Right now, however, it's noddy-blinkums time. Until then,...
2602. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 3:00:14 PM
And I stand by that -- I simply cannot imagine a serious overview of 20th Century American music and composers that doesn't even mention Zappa. But that probably goes hand-in-hand with my complete inability to grok those lists in the first place.
You want to recast that into a more modest phrase? Or, how many volumes is your "serious overview" of 20th century American music?
I don't play an instrument, I don't read notes, I'm not even particularly knowledgeable in musical forms and yet we can measure 20th century music - 1901 to 2000. Do you mean that Frank Zappa gets mention to fit in between Scott Joplin, Irving Berlin, Woody Guthrie, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Cole Porter, George Gershwin,Aaron Copeland, Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, Miles Davis,...? Hell, Andre Previn, Dimitri Tomkin, even Burt Baccarach seem to weigh in for more comment and influence than Frank Zappa (none of which last four I much care for by the way). Does Tupac Shakur get any mention?
Meaning, at some point can we just say that although styled as music and accepted by some part of a paying audience not all works are created equal nor even worth remembering.
Excuse me, but Frank Zappa?!
2603. theDiva - 9/21/2000 3:10:31 PM
My dear Mr. Loar, they included Nirvana on the list. Nirvana. The mind reels.
2604. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 3:35:13 PM
20th century music without Barber, Nancarrow, Reich, et al? That's American music, but there's little point comparing it to rock and country. I'm surprised to find Cage in there with Elvis and Ray Charles. Maybe NPR felt they should class up the joint.
The music of Copeland and Barber—music in the tradition of "classical", "orchestral", whatever—that's the planet Cage is on and is referring to in 4'43", which is not an isolated rhetorical stab but was the culmination of his experiments with random noise as a contrary to—a possibly stimulating contrast with—traditional scales and modes. The radios; the mike out the window picking up street noise; all that stuff. I'm not really terribly familiar with Cage—and I'll grant 4'43" to be boring in performance—but I don't at all think it can simply be dismissed as "posing".
(I'm reminded of my father (b. 1920) repeatedly—habitually—inveighing against Pollack, about whom he knew nothing but what he read in that famous Life piece, contending that he should be jailed (his italics, believe me) for conscious, profit-motivated fraud.)
2605. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 4:00:15 PM
Isn't the most popular music as judged by record sales Country & Western? A dog, a truck, a woman-who-done-him-wrong and the he's-all-wrong-but-he's-my-man man. That's as pathetic as the melody, harmony, rhythm and lyrics of rap and groups like Nirvana whose video I suffered through in the company of my tutor - my daughter - trying very hard to understand what-the-hell-was-I-missing.
2606. theDiva - 9/21/2000 4:23:18 PM
Do you know, there is actually a c&w song entitled 'Prop Me Up Against The Jukebox If I Die Tonight'?
2607. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 4:57:19 PM
"...so the maggots can dance."
2608. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 5:17:24 PM
Compare that crap to the melodies and lyrics of 17th and 18th century hymnals. Both forms are popular expressions popularly received in their time, both C&W and those hymnals follow a predictable pattern of content and melody, both are often composed by anonymous or very, very minor composers and yet...
2609. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 5:29:58 PM
Three hundred years from now, someone may be saying the same thing about Hank Williams and whatever they get then. We only see the best of the 17th century's output (in all categories), and at that we see them with the culture pretty fully assimilated, whereas it was new, then, and perhaps scoffed at by the last of the chant-lovers.
Not that I particularly care for the idea that our culture is best represented by the juke-box, but I doubt if the 17th-century hymnal is the best representation of its, either.
2610. theDiva - 9/21/2000 5:33:32 PM
now wait a minute. Hank Williams is a folk poet.
'Got a hot rod car and a two dollar bill
know a little place right over the hill
soda pop and the dancin's free
if you wanna have fun come along with me,
say hey good lookin, whaaaaaaaatcha got cookin'
Howzabout cookin somethin up with me-EEEEEEEEE'
and
'well, jambalaya, crawfish pie, and file gumbo
cause tonight I'm gonna meet my shall-a-meeeee-o
pick guitar, fill fruit jar and be gay-o
son of a gun, gonna have big fun on the bay-o'
Poetry.
2611. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 5:35:52 PM
Here's a sample:
As Pants the Hart for Cooling Streams
As pants the hart for cooling streams
When heated in the chase,
So longs my soul, O God, for thee,
And thy refreshing grace.
For thee, my God, the living God,
My thirsty soul doth pine:
O when shall I behold thy face,
Thou Majesty divine?
Why restless, why cast down, my soul?
Hope still, and thou shalt sing
The praise of him who is thy God,
Thy health's eternal spring.
To Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
The God whom we adore,
Be glory, as it was, is now,
And shall be evermore.
That's by "N. Tate and N. Brady" [1696]. I don't know Brady, but I assume Tate is Nahum Tate, whose version of King Lear—in which Cordelia survives and everything ends happily ever after—was delighted in by English audiences for generations. A pop culture kinda guy.
2612. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 5:37:24 PM
Diva! What's a "shall-a-mee-o"? (I've wanted to ask someone that for years!)
2613. JudithAtHome - 9/21/2000 5:41:04 PM
I always thought that line was "My Cheri-me oh" as in My "cherie amour" type thing.
2614. theDiva - 9/21/2000 5:41:56 PM
Geez, I even hear with a NY metro accent! Judith is correct, I'm sure.
2615. JudithAtHome - 9/21/2000 5:45:54 PM
I'm not sure I am but that's how I heard it, rather French-ish since I always equate it with Cajuns....but I also thought Jimi Hendrix was saying "'scuse me while I kiss this guy", too.
2616. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 5:46:47 PM
Aaah! That sounds good. Thanks, ladies.
(I'll be humming that all day now.)
2617. cmboyce - 9/21/2000 5:47:53 PM
My 2616 refers to 2613 & -14.
2618. theDiva - 9/21/2000 5:47:59 PM
Judith
'there's a bathroom on the right'
cm
You're most welcome. Me, too. I'm no C&W aficionado, but I do love Hank Williams.
2619. JudithAtHome - 9/21/2000 5:48:26 PM
Me, too.....
2620. JudithAtHome - 9/21/2000 5:51:25 PM
Oh god...you're right! Isn't there a list out there somewhere with all those lyrics that people heard wrong? No surprise that we heard things skewed since most of us were, at the time...
2621. theDiva - 9/21/2000 5:53:11 PM
I have a feeling JJ or Chuck might be able to point us in that direction.
2622. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 6:05:15 PM
Yes, the lyrics can be simple:
Praise God from whom all blessings flow;
2623. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 6:05:34 PM
2624. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 6:06:08 PM
Trying to undo damage here.
2625. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 6:12:31 PM
Yes, the lyrics can be simple
Praise God from whom all blessings flow; Praise Him, all creatures below; Praise Him above, ye heav'nly host; Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Amen.
which some may recognize as the Doxology, or even simpler:
O come, O come, Emmanuel, And ransom captive Israel; that mourns in lonely exile here, Until the Son of God appear. Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel, shall come to thee, O Israel!
but now join it to the melody Veni Emmanuel and it is a tear-jerker and has been for 8 centuries.
2626. ScottLoar - 9/21/2000 6:17:12 PM
. Trying to recover from italics.
2627. JJBiener - 9/21/2000 6:46:22 PM
Judith - I always thought that line was "My Cheri-me oh" as in My "cherie amour" type thing.
You are correct. M'Cher is Cajun equivalent to mon cherie(sp?).
2628. JJBiener - 9/21/2000 6:49:53 PM
Diva - Ask and you shall receive.
Misheard lyrics
2629. RosettaStone - 9/21/2000 7:08:56 PM
Great web site. And to think that Al Gore wants to take away the internet from us.
2630. theDiva - 9/21/2000 7:23:41 PM
Scott
We sung Praise God at meditation last Sunday! The arrangement we use is glorious.
JJ
You da man, baby!
2631. pellenilsson - 9/21/2000 7:43:35 PM
I'm listening to Sweet Lorraine with Nat right now, in the small bands version that makes you think of a quiet bar, leather armchairs and a tall drink.
2632. KuligintheHooligan - 9/21/2000 11:53:16 PM
I burned my first audio CD today. I don't know why, but I was really excited to do it. All the songs I put on the CD, 16 in all, came from Napster. I had to download some shareware from the Net so that I could convert the files from MP3 to WAV. Here's the "hard rock" CD I just created:
Bon Jovi - Let it Rock
Boston - More than a Feeling
AC/DC - Thunderstruck
Van Halen - Unchained
Metallica - Sandman
Tesla - Now Way Out
Guns 'N Roses - Welcome to the Jungle
AC/DC - Let's get it up
Motley Crue - Looks that Kill
Ratt - Back for more
Night Ranger - Don't tell me you love me
Van Halen - Panama
Ratt - Lay it down
Motley Crue - Dr. Feel Good
Pink Floyd - Comfortably Numb
Rush - YYZ
Most of these songs I hadn't heard in years. Needless to say, my wife doesn't like the CD!
2633. Jenerator - 9/21/2000 11:57:16 PM
Kuligin,
You're an 80's metal-head.(?)
These days I can't get enough of The Crystal Method's Vegas cd.
2634. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/2000 12:05:15 AM
I do like rock and roll. Not all the songs above come from the 80s of course. I much preferred the David Lee Roth Van Halen to the latter years, for example. The latter half of the 70s I enjoyed a lot. But obviously many of the above do come from the 80s, basically my college days.
I am currently working on an "easy listening" CD of my faves, which will include songs like "Your Song" by Elton John, "Africa" and "Rosanna" by Toto, "She's Got a Way" by Billy Joel, "Southern Cross" by Crosby, Stills, Nash, and so on.
Then I will make an "oldies" CD. I determine what that term "oldies" means of course, but the songs there will include ones like "Respect," "Tears of a Clown," "Who Loves You" by the Four Seasons, Elvis with "Caught in a Trap," "Lady Madonna" by the Beetles, and so on.
2635. joezan - 9/22/2000 12:07:51 AM
If you're looking to download "Caught in a Trap", you'd probably do better looking for "Suspicious Minds", the song's actual title.
2636. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/2000 12:14:01 AM
Thanks joezan! I actually figured that out when I was looking for it several weeks ago. In fact, the song had "caught in a trap" as the title, even though that isn't the correct title!
Some more current songs I like include Evan Olson, "So Much Better," Sinead O'Connor, "No Man's Woman," Savage Garden with "Crash and Burn," and the Backstreet Boys with "Larger than Life." I have already gotten these via Napster.
2637. Nostradamus - 9/22/2000 2:02:17 AM
Koolio
You seem to have left out some of the best. 'You shook me all night long' is the best thing AC/DC ever did.
How 'bout some Def Leppard (Pour some sugar on me, Let's get rocked, Love bites) and KISS (who played in Ottawa last night.)
2638. CalGal - 9/22/2000 2:10:21 AM
I like Van Halen with Sammy Hagar just a tad bit better--I'm a sucker for a good power ballad. So sue me.
But I saw Van Halen twice with David Lee Roth--once in 1979, once in 1981. The 1979 concert was in the Oakland Auditorium, with open seating. I was 10 feet from the stage and something like 10 feet off the ground--I had been caught in the rush towards the stage and was caught between what seemed like 20 zillion young guys (at that time, 19-26 males were the VH demographic).
Such a time I had.
(I'm sure I've told this story before, but I can never remember where or when.)
2639. Nostradamus - 9/22/2000 4:41:32 AM
On a completely unrelated topic, I'm currently addicted to No me ames with Jennifer Lopez and Marc Anthony.
2640. EricCartman - 9/22/2000 8:25:02 AM
Mondaugen Message # 2601:
Well, without going into detail regarding my feelings toward Zappa (which could be construed as unduly combatative given their distasteful)....
So? Go for it anyway. Why should I be the only one ranting about this? That's what we're here for. Zappa put out lots of crap too, and admitted it -- you can't do 70 albums without releasing a couple dozen turkeys.
I guess the proper response should be more along the lines of: 'why in the hell do you think some NPR list is a 'serious overview'?
Good point. Not that I took it to be a thoroughly comprehensive critique in the first place, but no doubt NPR fancies itself a tad more astute than more proletarian listmakers, like say People Magazine.
2641. EricCartman - 9/22/2000 8:44:18 AM
Loar Message # 2602:
You want to recast that into a more modest phrase? Or, how many volumes is your "serious overview" of 20th century American music?
Shall I be more specific? Okay -- I think Frank Zappa certainly merits mention in a "Top 100" list of 20th century American composers and musicians. I overestimated the "seriousness" of a "best of" list in my polemic frenzy; still, NPR seems the sort of outlet that regards itself as having a certain amount of cultural and ćsthetic judgement.
I don't play an instrument, I don't read notes, I'm not even particularly knowledgeable in musical forms and yet we can measure 20th century music - 1901 to 2000.
Oh, I certainly wasn't implying that only musicians are fit to determine whether music is "good" or "bad". That's what we have critics for.
Do you mean that Frank Zappa gets mention to fit in between Scott Joplin, Irving Berlin,...[etc.]?
Sure. I think he made his mark. Note that I wouldn't even dare to quantify Zappa, or compare him directly with any of those you mention. I'm just saying that if you're going for a list of 100, he certainly belongs somewhere on there. I'm not shooting for a specific number placement; that's a fool's errand.
But there are manifold examples of FZ's strong compositional abilities, musicianship, vision, that merit some sort of mention. I guess it depends on the criteria -- musically interesting and different and influential, or merely popular. If you're going to lionize the I-IV-V guys from the '50s, you gotta give props to a guy who could orchestrate, compose, and arrange in 13/8 -- and play it live, with a six-piece rock band and a six-piece horn section.
2642. EricCartman - 9/22/2000 8:44:34 AM
Hell, Andre Previn, Dimitri Tomkin, even Burt Baccarach seem to weigh in for more comment and influence than Frank Zappa (none of which last four I much care for by the way). Does Tupac Shakur get any mention?
Tupac gets mention only for coming in second to Hendrix, for most posthumous releases. You seem to think that I'm trying to nominate something like Ted Nugent's Wang Dang Sweet Poontang -- which, incidentally, is also a far better song than What I Say. I'm not, nor would I put forth FZ's more popular doo-doo joke-songs (though some are pretty funny). I do think that some of his orchestral music is of a pretty high caliber.
Really, though, few musicians even listen to as many different styles as Zappa ably played. That's a rare thing, worthy of note especially in today's niche marketing.
Meaning, at some point can we just say that although styled as music and accepted by some part of a paying audience not all works are created equal nor even worth remembering.
Well yeah, that's what makes busting down these silly lists so much fun. That's the point of discussion.
Excuse me, but Frank Zappa?!
For musical/compositional ability, for satirical vision, for influence on modern musicians -- hell, just for his work ethic alone -- absolutely. If Ray Charles gets on there, if Elvis Presley (who scarcely wrote or played at all) is exemplary of American music, yeah, FZ's in there somewhere.
But you strike me as a guy who would be put off both by the doo-doo jokes, and by pretty much anything that has drums and electric guitar, so I'll understand if you think I'm full of it.
2643. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/2000 11:38:21 AM
Nostradamus,
I already have Def Leppard's Hysteria. Keep in mind, these are songs that I got from Napster. Obviously I don't need to download songs I already have.
"You Shook Me All Night Long" is a decent song, but IMO not their best. Their best is "Shoot to Thrill." That song is certainly in my top ten favorite rock songs of all time.
By the way, nice to see you again!
CalGal, I don't mean to imply that Hagar and Company were bad. They put out some good tunes, my favorite being "The Best of Both Worlds." But for me personally, once Roth left, VH was never the same again.
And why is it that in picturing you squeezed between 20 zillion young males that I picture you with a huge smile on your face??
Eric, did I see you say somewhere that your wife is expecting? If so, congratulations! And if this will be your first, your life will never be the same again!
2644. ScottLoar - 9/22/2000 2:44:37 PM
Eric Cartman,
Your comment is a true discouragement to any exchange. You know nothing about me except that what I chose to directly reveal, but you, yes, I was sure that my examples of Christian hymnody would bring out juvenile comment from someone such as, geez, electric guitar and drums are just too much for Loar. Again, you don't know shit about me.
I think your perspective on a "serious overview" of American music that includes Franz (Weasels Ripped My Flesh) Zappa not much higher than a guitar fret.
2645. RosettaStone - 9/22/2000 4:49:17 PM
If you're like me, you purchased Madonna's new album MUSIC last week.
And if you're like me, you put the record on because you wanted to dance with your baby.
And if you're like me, when the music started you never wanted to stop.
It's gonna drive me crazy.
2646. JudithAtHome - 9/22/2000 5:11:17 PM
I seriously doubt many are "like you".
2647. RosettaStone - 9/22/2000 5:27:30 PM
Speaking of the gored Judith, how did Mr. Rectitude and ten of your "closest friends" like the 2 one-act plays on sodemy that you witnessed last weekend at some "church" basement?
Was it mostly graphic, or symbolic?
2648. JudithAtHome - 9/22/2000 5:56:43 PM
It was very symbolic, Rosie...you seem inordinately interested in it, however.
I had no idea you were such a prude. Was it the fact the play was produced in an old Catholic convent that raised your hackles or the fact it was a farce about sexuality? And I hate to burst your prim little bubble but there was no sodomy and only tastefully done brief nudity. We all enjoyed it very much, as did the rest of the "sold out" audience.
Ah, maybe what miffs you about this entire thing is the fact I have ten close friends....whereas you............ ?
2649. rubberducky - 9/22/2000 11:04:59 PM
Madonna's CD was pretty good, fwiw.
too "clubby" for me mostly, but some decent tracks. worth a pick-up
2650. Jenerator - 9/22/2000 11:33:17 PM
I like Madonna, and Ali G (the comedian I'm always raving about) is in her "Music" video as the limo driver.
I heard that she was coming out with a trance cd for yoga, too. Or is "Music" supposed to be that?
2651. JJBiener - 9/23/2000 12:11:05 AM
Kuligan - I am sure that the artists and songwriters who worked so hard to produce the music you've stolen will be thrilled to know that you have no compuctions about appropriating their work with compensating them.
2652. anomieme - 9/23/2000 12:27:27 AM
Jen,
Ali G was a trip. I laughed my butt off the first time I saw him. Did you see him before the gig was up? He's still funny out of the closet but the reactions he got early on were absolutely hilarious.
2653. Jenerator - 9/23/2000 12:51:26 AM
It's all about respecting the bitches.
2654. Nostradamus - 9/23/2000 1:00:44 AM
Is he the guy that mouths the words at the beginning of the song? It sounds like a gay guy, but it could be a really throaty chick.
2655. RosettaStone - 9/23/2000 1:33:15 AM
Thanks for the pro-Madonna comments by those of you who like MUSIC.
You can tell by the way the gored Judith writes that she has little rhythm. She's not like the rest of us dancing fools who can't wait to get our babies out on the wooden floor and do the jerk.
She would rather take "ten of her closest friends" and the poor soul, Mr. Rectitude, to some former sacred Catholic convent and watch 2 one-act plays on sodomy. Hopefully, someone was playing the bongos and the coffee was strong at the event.
But to stay on topic. Who else but Madonna could get people moving to the beat with these lyrics: "Music makes the bourgeoisie and the rebel come together"?
bourgeoisie?
2656. quivver - 9/23/2000 3:16:36 AM
Ms. Ciccone's latest is weak, weak, weak. You want a chick to give you decent dance music, try DJ Sandra Collins' latest. She is so cool. Not quite the same comparison, but the tracks are so much better.
2657. RosettaStone - 9/23/2000 4:41:28 AM
quivver: My kids just taught me the Electric Slide, and my @motor hasn't stopped since.
2658. Jenerator - 9/25/2000 4:16:48 AM
Did someone say strong coffee?
Ali G isn't gay.
2659. EricCartman - 9/25/2000 6:52:13 AM
Kuligin Message # 2643:
Yes, my wife is expecting, and thanks for the congrats. Still have another 6 months to go, but we're looking forward to it (though my wife, in the throes of constant nausea, insists that this first will also be the last).
Loar Message # 2644:
Heavens, Loar, you react to a simple observation as if I'd said something awful about your mother. It was merely a simple comment, uncharacteristically absent of my usual scorn and sarcasm -- you really don't seem the type to listen to much rock music, and even more not the type to enjoy Zappa's pernicious brand of bathroom humor. I suppose I could be wrong about that; you might in fact don a Grand Funk Railroad wig and play air guitar on your broom to a wide variety of what we refer to these days as "Freedom Rock".
Your pćans to Christian hymnody had nothing to do with anything I said; in fact I'm sure they're perfectly nice examples of music. Definitely nothing I'd ever poke fun at -- making fun of devotional music is about as sporting as tripping a nun.
But hell, if you really want to read all that into a simple throwaway paragraph at the end of a somewhat more thorough explanation of a more relevant topic, fine by me.
2660. arkymalarky - 9/26/2000 4:18:07 AM
Hardly time for anything but lurking this week, but I agree with Eric re Zappa. Not that I'm nearly as familiar with him as Eric and haven't listened much in years.
2662. arkymalarky - 9/26/2000 4:55:59 AM
If those are Zappa lyrics I either don't recognize them or it's been so long I've forgotten.
2663. JJBiener - 9/26/2000 5:00:52 AM
Message #2661 was deleted because it contained inappropriate content. I hope this will not be repeated.
Thank you
2664. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 5:15:56 AM
'...anything that could be construed as relating to creative endeavors'?
Sorry JJ, didn't mean to get your panties in a bunch. I'll keep my 'creativity' in other threads.
2665. joezan - 9/26/2000 5:27:58 AM
Hey Cartman:
Congrats to you and the Mrs.!
Great news.
2666. Jenerator - 9/26/2000 5:32:12 AM
Joezan,
Good to see you friend!
Cartman,
Is this your first? I'm excited for you. If it's a boy will he get his first electric guitar soon?
2667. joezan - 9/26/2000 5:50:44 AM
Good to see you, too, Jenerator.
Are we done globetrotting?
2668. Nostradamus - 9/26/2000 6:08:07 AM
Oh man, I wanted to say something about the Harlem Globetrotters but I don't think JJ would approve.
==):-)
2669. Don S. - 9/27/2000 8:06:11 PM
We Are Not Amused
Check out the print version of today's NYTimes for a closer view of the priceless look on Her Majesty's mug.
2670. theDiva - 9/27/2000 8:12:33 PM
Hey Don, you know, today is KoKo Taylor's 65th birthday. At lunch I heard a fab song she did this year with Keb' Mo'...The Man Next Door. Very tasty.
2671. RosettaStone - 9/29/2000 8:08:53 PM
Okay, did anyone get any new CDs this weekend? At a neighborhood garage sale, we picked up $2 copies of three albums.
"Californication," Red Hot Chili Peppers
"A Little Bit of Mambo," Lou Bega
"MirrowBall," Sarah McLachlan (live greatest hits collection)
2672. arkymalarky - 9/29/2000 8:12:16 PM
I would think it would have been more satisfying to have used the money to buy a Happy Meal on the way home.
2673. RosettaStone - 9/29/2000 8:33:25 PM
Below the belt, arky.
My son likes the Peppers, and the girls wanted the other two CDs.
I've always liked "Sweet Surrender," "Building a Mystery" and "I Will Remember You" by sister Sarah.
2674. RosettaStone - 9/29/2000 8:55:11 PM
And, I forgot one of the best titles ever for a song: "Fumbling Towards Ecstasy."
Now, what could that song by McLachlan be about?
2675. arkymalarky - 9/29/2000 10:06:49 PM
Bob and Mose love Sara Mc, and I can appreciate that she has a lovely voice quality, but she just bores the hell outta me. I try to point out the difference between her and someone like Phoebe Snow, Bonnie Raitt, etc, but they don't seem to see it. I'll think one of her songs sounds nice and I will try to listen, but by the middle of it I've drifted off and am thinking about something else entirely.
2676. arkymalarky - 9/29/2000 10:53:27 PM
Except of course like now, when I'm trying to shut it out and Mose has it up with the door open and it's making my teeth grind together. Why, I really don't know.
2677. theDiva - 9/30/2000 12:12:59 AM
well, my Sweet Honey In The Rock CD arrived today. Lord, but these women are magnificent. Alternatively they make me want to sing for a living and never let another note issue from my throat. I can hardly wait to attend their workshop in January...hoping like anything that I secure a spot on the list, and terrified that I will have to sing in the presence of these geniuses.
Bernice Johnson Reagon, founder of the group, writes 'This group is a part of my living - not spare time, not what I do for a living, not a job, not a hobby - but the way I breathe, the how I make my way through my life and the life of my times.'
Yes.
And they give me chills.
2678. EricCartman - 9/30/2000 1:16:31 AM
Joezan, Jenerator:
Belated thanks for the congrats! Jen, the kid (not sure yet, but the wife seems to think it's a girl) will have access to plenty of noisemakers -- guitars, a piano, electric keyboards -- once the time comes.
Boy or girl, I probably will encourage some guitar playing. Because you can't bring a piano to a campfire.
Recent CD acquisitions:
Rushmore Soundtrack
Pink Floyd -- Wish You Were Here (remastered)
Beethoven -- Complete String Quartets (8-CD set for only $28 at Amazon!)
Beethoven -- Piano Concerto #5 & #4 (Daniel Barenboim)
Rachmaninov -- Piano Concerto #2 (Vladimir Ashkenazy)
Deep Purple -- Made In Japan (25th anniversary remaster w/3 bonus tracks)
Pantera -- Reinventing the Steel
Decent new dance muzak -- Snake River Conspiracy. It's hard, it's loud, it's rhythmic, the chick that's singing is hot and extremely bisexual, and after a few beers, you don't care about any of that shit anyway. Check out their remake of the Beatles' She Said She Said on Napster, then move on to Coke and Vaseline. Lots of good clean fun; not for the faint of heart.
Stone, if your kid is really a Peppers fan, get him Mothers Milk or Uplift Mofo Party Jam, fergodsake. Californication is about as rockin' and rebellious as A Michael Bolton Salute to Jimi Hendrix. (whoo, yeah, ohhh, ow that purple purple haze, baby mama....when a MAAAN loves a wo-MUN....)
2679. RosettaStone - 9/30/2000 4:48:48 AM
Eric: Regret that I've failed to offer my best wishes for the upcoming birth. I do now. I used to enjoy feeling my wife's stomach when our 8-month-old baby was kicking in her. I used to get my fat wife pissed off by saying it reminded me of that monster in the movie ALIEN trying to get out. (g)
(A word of warning. Don't call your pregnant wife "fat." The only time Pam tried to kill me was when she was pregnant with our third child. Fortunately the steak knife was thrown poorly and I had a baby in my arms that protected me. But that's another Police Report story.)
And when our first baby came home from the hospital 15 years ago and starts making noise in his room, you really know that you're a family.
On-topic: I don't think I'll become a RHCPeppers fan (although I do like their new video-game music video), but I'm glad they survived their drug years.
2680. EricCartman - 9/30/2000 6:43:04 PM
Thanks, Stone. Way ahead of you on the whole "fat" issue. Wife starts to grouse about "getting fat" -- you either good-naturedly disagree, point at your own paunch comparatively, or shut the fuck up. I generally take the third option there.
But so far, it's all good -- no blood, no foul. The episode you describe in italics, I'm sure I caught while skimming through Cops one time.
As for the Peppers and drugs, I dunno. Like Aerosmith, I think they were a bit better in certaqin ways when they were high. But also like Aerosmith (or Van Halen, for that matter) they've gotten more into the craft of songwriting as they've sobered up, so that's something, I guess.
2681. RosettaStone - 9/30/2000 6:57:08 PM
Great bio special on VH1 on Cat Stevens this morning.
Really liked his "PEACE TRAIN"-spirtual mood music back in the early 1970s and heard "I LOVE MY DOG" (his first hit in the mid-1960s) for the first time in 30 years.
I'm glad he dropped out, survived, and I hope he's now returning.
2682. arkymalarky - 9/30/2000 7:27:54 PM
I dunno. I loved his music at the time--it didn't age as well for me as I got older, but I still enjoy Tea for the Tillerman--but I'm still leery of him after his support of the fanatical death warrant on Rushdie. I'd be surprised if he could recapture his magic or offer much new. His reputation might be better if he took his royalties and left well enough alone.
2683. JudithAtHome - 9/30/2000 7:39:49 PM
We saw a terrific play last night: The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit by Ray Bradbury. Yes, it is the same Ray Bradbury but this wasn't science fiction at all. It is about 5 men the same size who are so broke they have to pool their money to buy one beautiful white suit which they feel will change their lives and luck if they can only own it. They are ten dollars short and allow a sixth man to buy into the suit; he is basically a bum and very unkempt so in their schedule of wearing the suit for 30 minutes each on Friday night, the bum is last in line. The suit truly does change the wearer and the time alloted to the bum was one of the funniest scenes I've ever witnessed in live theatre.
The bum is cleaned up to some extent and sent out into the wee hours of the morning to enjoy his half hour in the suit; he goes to an after hours joint and the other 5 follow him and look through the window to see to their horror that the bum has chosen to dance with the girlfriend of a huge biker dude who walks in and starts heading for the bum with mayhem in mind. The rest of the scene is done in slow motion, like an Italian western...all 5 guys, the bum, the biker dude, and the floozy girlfriend perform a barroom brawl in perfect slow motion, even the dialogue is delivered in slow motion: "heeellllpppp mmmeeeee!" "NNNOOOooooo, nnooootttt tthhheee sssuuuuuuiiitttt!!!!!" It was hysterical...a most enjoyable evening at the theatre.
2684. RosettaStone - 9/30/2000 7:44:58 PM
In this VH1 special, he claims that he didn't do that.
(My facts of why and how are sketchy since I was making pancakes for the kids at the time, looking for butter in the back of the refrig and listening to my son and his grandfather talk about the Redskins game this afternoon at 4 p.m.)
2685. EricCartman - 10/1/2000 8:01:00 AM
Stone:
Did they mention anything about Cat Stevens getting stopped last year at the Kosovo border (in Montenegro, I believe) attempting to bring supplies to returning refugees?
Just curious. Like Arky, I liked Cat's music quite a bit back in the day, was surprised when he just up and disappeared, and was disappointed when he returned as an oddball ascetic.
Not that I have a problem with the religious deal, but it seems to have totally derailed the musical part. A good example of where mysticism can work well in hand with music, and not be overbearing or preachy in the least, is in King Crimson. Robert Fripp spent time among the Whirling Dervishes of Konya, learning Sufi mysticism, watching how the Sufi musicians applied their philosophy to their musical technique, and came back to the West and started a guitar school.
Seems like a better deal than meandering the alleys of Cairo, or wherever Stevens ended up, and doing nothing but preaching.
2686. quivver - 10/1/2000 9:17:01 AM
Sarah McLachlan did a transcendent song with Delerium called Silence (sanctuary mix). Vinyl-only I think, but very perfect. One of the most stupidly beautiful things I've ever heard. Of course, orbital are like that too. And autechre, and underworld, and tilt, and danny tenaglia, and I think I could go on all the livelong day, so I'll stop. Although currently funk guitar makes me happiest, but that is only this week. :D
2687. JJBiener - 10/1/2000 5:36:23 PM
Cat Stevens, or Yusef Islam as he now calls himself, claims he did not support the death warrant on Rushdie, but he didn't condemn it either. His comments at the time were along the lines of, "The sentence is consistent with Islamic law."
This incarnation of Stevens is a disappointment for me since I was a big fan in my youth. Teaser and the Firecat was the second album I ever bought. It is not surprising that he got out of music since his later albums fell well below his efforts on the earlier ones. I just wish he hadn't left reality completely.
2688. Wombat - 10/1/2000 5:52:33 PM
Cat Stevens is trying to retroactively edit his past pronouncements. I was living in Britain at the time of the Rushdie imbroglio, and was quoted prominently as condoning any attempt to kill Rushdie.
My favorite album: Mona Bone Jakon (the one before Tea for the Tillerman) and his soundtrack of Harold and Maude.
2689. JudithAtHome - 10/1/2000 7:00:50 PM
Wombat:
I'm hoping you left a "he" out of that post about Cat Stevens...
2690. Wombat - 10/1/2000 7:07:20 PM
Judith:
The only thing I was quoted on about the Rushdie book was how unreadable I thought it was. sorry about the missing "he."
2691. JudithAtHome - 10/1/2000 7:21:15 PM
Wombat:
I actually liked The Satanic Verses but I liked Midnights Children much better.
2692. rubberducky - 10/3/2000 8:07:12 PM
picked up the new Green Day CD this week.
i like it, some good tunes. however, those expecting the group to stick with the "harder" rock that was in their last album (which was great) will be disappointed. a few songs have the "harder" edge, the rest has softened up - somewhat in response, imo, to the current pop/rock music market
2693. msgreer - 10/3/2000 8:12:31 PM
800-973-2211.Curious? Go the Health Thread.
2694. Jenerator - 10/4/2000 5:15:17 AM
Rosetta,
I bought Madonna's Music cd thanks in part to you. While I think that this is much more of a "fun" album than her last one, I think that the title track is really the only hit. Some of the beats are funky, and I like the overall mood of it, but it's not that memorable of an album to me. I'm a Madonna fan I'll admit; I think she's intuitive and intelligent, but I was hoping for more.
2695. Webfeet - 10/4/2000 5:41:59 AM
Did anyone catch the Norman Mailer documentary on PBS? I can't believe I missed it! I had been waiting all day for it and now fini. I can't believe what time it is.
2696. Don S. - 10/5/2000 5:32:50 PM
Message # 2687. JJBiener: "This incarnation of [Cat] Stevens is a disappointment for me. ... I just wish he hadn’t left reality completely."
I for one am getting sick and tired of JJBiener’s religious bigotry.
2697. DanDillon - 10/5/2000 5:42:26 PM
I'm a Madonna fan I'll admit; I think she's intuitive and intelligent, but I was hoping for more.
Me too. Like a couple of nude photos in the liner notes, for instance.
2698. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 6:19:38 PM
Don S - Religious bigotry? I am assuming this is a joke, but I don't get it.
2699. Don S. - 10/5/2000 9:06:12 PM
Conversion to Islam = flight from reality, eh JJ?
Your Muslim-bashing is deplorable.
2700. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 9:22:52 PM
Donny - I didn't even reference his conversion. I was talking about his leaving the music business. I would have preferred him to continue recording and performing. The only muslim-bashing is in your fertile imagination.
2701. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 9:27:24 PM
For those who think Napster is harmless, songwriters lost over $100 million in royalties in just the month of September. The artists themselves lost several times that amount.
Support the artists and songwriters who produce the music you listen to. Abandon Napster.
2702. Don S. - 10/5/2000 9:29:19 PM
I downloaded "Morning Has Broken" from Napster last night.
Mmmm, piano-y....
2703. rubberducky - 10/5/2000 9:31:03 PM
that's silly JJ
how much have writers "lost" due to libraries?
2704. theDiva - 10/5/2000 9:41:47 PM
hey, if you download Cat Stevens, you get what you deserve, I say.
2705. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 9:44:17 PM
Ducks,
If you borrow a book from a library, you don't get to keep it. You don't get to give copies to all your friends. If you want to own the book, you still have to buy it.
2706. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 9:45:07 PM
Don S - I believe the piano part on Morning Has Broken was played by Rick Wakeman.
2707. rubberducky - 10/5/2000 9:50:26 PM
JJ:
so you don't keep it, so what?
the point is you don't buy the product. taking money away from the producer, yet, we've been doing it for years with no complaints
2708. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 10:06:21 PM
Ducks - If you haven't heard the complaints, you haven't been paying attention. Also, until recently there hasn't been the technology to allow wide spread copying and distribution of pirated materials. In September Napster transferred over 1 billion songs. Nothing of this magnitude has ever existed before. That music will never be paid for. Those songwriters and artists will never be compensated for their efforts. How would you feel if someone took advantage of your efforts and refused to compensate you?
2709. rubberducky - 10/5/2000 10:30:46 PM
Re: Message # 2708, JJBiener.
If you haven't heard the complaints, you haven't been paying attention.
i have, i just don't find them particularly compelling
Nothing of this magnitude has ever existed before.
yeah. well, that's new technology for ya.
That music will never be paid for.
incorrect. lots of folks buy CDs and transfer the songs to the PC (a little thing called "fair use") and then other people can and do copy those files (illegally, yes). more to the point you, Napster, or big Government haven't clue one as to if it has been paid for or not.
another point. i downloaded a techno remix of the Inspector Gadget theme song the other day. who, exactly, did i rip off? what about song parodies and dance remixes done by radio stations? who is losing money there, hmmm? no one. thus, Napster is not culpable. i predict this will be the decision rendered in court.
How would you feel if someone took advantage of your efforts and refused to compensate you?
not too swell. however, it isn't the only POV here. as OffSpring is only too willing to show.
2710. PelleNilsson - 10/5/2000 10:38:14 PM
That songwriters have "lost so and so much" is predicated upon people buying the CDs if they were not available on Napster. Is this a reasonable assumption? That each song from Napster equals the loss of sale of one CD?
2711. PelleNilsson - 10/5/2000 10:39:28 PM
On reflection: or even the sale of one song if it were available separately?
2712. rubberducky - 10/5/2000 10:39:49 PM
no, that is not so, Pelle
i, for an example, have downloaded songs i heard on the radio and later bought the CD
2713. rubberducky - 10/5/2000 10:40:22 PM
or, downloaded different mixes of the same song i already have
2714. Don S. - 10/5/2000 10:47:09 PM
JJ (you Muslim-hating SOB), I think you're thinking of David Bowie and "Life on Mars?"
2715. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 10:47:48 PM
Ducks - more to the point you, Napster, or big Government haven't clue one as to if it has been paid for or not.
Actually, they do.
another point. i downloaded a techno remix of the Inspector Gadget theme song the other day. who, exactly, did i rip off?
The person who wrote the theme song, the artist who originally recorded the theme song and the artist who did the remix.
what about song parodies and dance remixes done by radio stations?
Performqnce royalties are paid through ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. If they are recorded and either sold or given away, mechanical royalties are paid through the Harry Fox Agency.
thus, Napster is not culpable. i predict this will be the decision rendered in court.
I believe Napster is culpable since they are providing the vehicle for the exchange with full knowledge of what it is being used for. Even if the courts decide otherwise, the activity is still illegal.
however, it isn't the only POV here. as OffSpring is only too willing to show.
If Offspring wants to give away their own music, that is entirely their business. I only have a problem with people who take other people's music and distribute it without permission or compensation.
2716. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 10:53:36 PM
Pelle - That songwriters have "lost so and so much" is predicated upon people buying the CDs if they were not available on Napster.
It is based the number of songs transferred times the mechanical royalty rate.
Is this a reasonable assumption?
Yes. A songwriter is legally entitled to mechanical royalties for all distributed copies of their song whether they are given away or sold. Their songs are protected by international copyright.
2717. angel-five - 10/5/2000 10:54:54 PM
Two things happen when I download a song. I either delete it in like two days or I end up buying the disc. I've no idea how typical that is, but I've never seen any convincing statistics directly linking the existence of MP3 trading communities to a fall in sales. There's just too many variables.
I'm sure there's SOME correlation, but, then again, there's a hellapile of discs I now own that I'd never have gotten otherwise.
Napster, for me, (well, I use Scour but it's the same thing) is exactly like having an interactive radio station, only there's no commercials and it doesn't play shitty music. I read something or hear something about a band, I search, I download. I discover new bands and I buy their discs. I leave the better MP3s on my computer, but that's sort of irrelevant.
Banning Napster isn't going to do much of anything to get rid of MP3s. At the most it's going to make MP3 communities more arcane. Look at all the free cracked software you can get online if you know how.
2718. JJBiener - 10/5/2000 10:56:20 PM
Donny - I think you'
