Arts and Culture

Fine and popular art, music, theatre, dance, literature and language...freewheeling discussions about culture and the arts.

Misc Culture Worthless Word for the Day Music Links JJBiener All About Jazz Better Propaganda Audiri - Find Music You Like Spinner.com Sonicnet GarageBand.com EC Brown: MP3 links RIAA Radar Amazon Free Music downloads Music (for robots) DogCatRadio.com mp3 4U Jamendo: Open Your Ears Live-Radio Audio Lunchbox Last.fm Amie Street PayPlay.FM Music Resources Amazon Music All Music Guide Jazz Corner JohnColtrane.com Downhill Battle Smithsonian Global Sound Dusty Groove Art Links Art History on The Web Cloisters Kyoto National Museum Liberace Museum Metropolitan Museum of Art National Gallery of Art Smithsonian Institution State Russian Museum Wabbit's Museum Links (and lots of em) Theatre Links Aisle Say Backstage.com Jam Theatre

1. theDiva - 8/23/1999 6:56:15 PM

Today is the anniversary of alto saxophonist Buster Smith's birthday.

2. AdamSelene - 8/23/1999 7:26:05 PM

I would suggest that, where possible, links to mp3 recordings of artists' work should accompany their discussion. For example, selections from one of the best melodic guitarists of all time can be found at Santana.Com

I don't know if this will work, but here's a Real Audio version of his Samba Pa Ti, one of my favorite songs of all time. (The new CD release has a much better mix.)

3. AdamSelene - 8/23/1999 7:28:38 PM

The Real Audio link works (if you have a compatible player installed, like Windows Media Player) but I guess you don't need to spawn a new window like I did.

4. theDiva - 8/23/1999 7:31:10 PM

good idea, Adam. Let me see if I can find something by old Buster.

5. theDiva - 8/23/1999 9:27:12 PM

well, damn. Nothing on Buster. However, Friday is Prez' birthday, and we'll have lots of audio samples. Be sure to tune in.

6. msgreer - 8/23/1999 9:51:29 PM

I remember someone asking if anyone knew folks involved in producing CD's, music whatever.

If this person is still interested they can contact me at msgreer@home.

I have someone who is in the business.

I can't promise anything but I will be happy to make the introductions.

7. Rivendell - 8/23/1999 9:56:42 PM

Judithathome -

I read in Suggestions that you will be seeing three plays in the next ten days. Titles? Dates?

If you would like to talk about them in here I would be happy to join you. If they are plays I haven't seen or read it might take me a couple of days to get up to speed.

8. JJBiener - 8/23/1999 10:04:19 PM

MsGreer - The person asking about contacts in the music industry was none other than my humble self. You have my email address. Drop me a line and let me know. I appreciate anything you can offer.

9. JJBiener - 8/23/1999 10:06:19 PM

Riv and Judith - You are most welcome to discuss the Theatre in this thread. I hope we can get some others to participate as well. It is not an area I have can contribute much to, but I will certainly enjoy reading about it.

10. msgreer - 8/23/1999 10:16:14 PM

JJ

I emailed you the other day and got no response from you.

In the morning there was a message from hotmail saying email not accepted at this time. It seems you were either "full" with emails or hotmail just didn't make the connection.

I will try right now.

11. msgreer - 8/23/1999 10:17:39 PM

JJ

hotmail=yahoo.

sorry.

email coming to ya.

12. Rivendell - 8/23/1999 10:22:07 PM

JJ,

Cool. And if you see that Judith posts anything about the plays and I don't see it, please let me know and I'll get back to her.

13. PincherMartin - 8/24/1999 8:27:55 AM

PhillipDavid --

I have dusted off my Leo Africanus and plan to take it with me to Taiwan next week. I will be ready to resume our Book chat when I get back.

Do you have any suggestions for future readings that I should prepare for now?

14. Judithathome - 8/24/1999 5:25:39 PM

Rivendell:

On Sunday evening, we saw Tom Stoppards "Rough Crossing" and it was excellent. We have a local theatre company called Stage West which has been around for 20 years and they do a season of from 9 to 12 shows. They are housed in an old Art Deco movie house across the street fom TCU. (Texas Christian University) The university has a good drama department but the plays employ mostly Actors Equity players.

Rough Crossing was a romp...at one point, we risked sea-sickness because the entire stage seemed to rock back and forth; the actors staggered from one side to the other, falling and rolling as the sea "swelled" and an overhead hanging chandelier swayed back and forth. (Eat your heart out, Andrew Lloyd-Webber!!) The dialogue was uber-Stoppard...very witty and sharp; it was a very good test for timing, too. The cast was dead on throughout, and played well to the audience. This is theatre-in-the-square, with the stage in the middle. This production lent itself to that sort of venue, what with all the rolling and rocking of the ship.

15. Rivendell - 8/24/1999 5:33:56 PM

Judith,

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm between classes so this'll have to be quick.

I saw Rough Crossing a number of years ago. I'll need to look at the script again to refresh my memory. I take it you have seen other Stoppard plays before. Which ones?

Does Stage West have a website?

Click here for the site of the Repertory Theatre of St. Louis. If you click on the Mainstage season link you will see a list and description of the plays the Ms. and I will be attending this year.

16. Judithathome - 8/24/1999 5:44:12 PM

Riv:

Yes, Stage West has a website....I'll have to get back to you on it because they have merged with Shakespeare In The Park to form The Allied Theatre Group so I don't know how they list themselves now.

I just lost a long post on the Stoppard play. My computer kicked me off...grrrrrrr.

The other 2 plays will be: Seducing Sally and Introducing Bonnie Parker. I'll write more about them after I see them.

17. Judithathome - 8/24/1999 5:51:24 PM

Riv:

Thanks for the link! Your season looks great...I envy you The Beauty Queen Of Leanean. We have season tickets to three companies: Stage West, Fort Worth Theatre, and Circle Theatre. We also attend shows at Bass Performance Hall; the ballet and opera perform there and road shows, etc.

You'd be amazed at the extent of the Arts community here in "Cowtown". Dallas gets all the press but WE have the class....:-)

18. Judithathome - 8/24/1999 5:57:55 PM

Riv:

I can't link but the web address is www.stagewest.org

(I promise to learn how to link and how to do italics and all that good stuff you guys have provided for us!)

19. JJBiener - 8/24/1999 8:16:20 PM

I guess since this is my thread, I should welcome everyone who stumbles in here. This is a general purpose arts and music thread. You are welcome to discuss anything from jazz to hip-hop, impressionism to expressionism, performance art to musicals. In other words, anything related to artistic expression not covered by the other threads.

I would also be interested in stories of how artists incorporate their art into their daily existence. How they balance creative impulses against home, work and family.

Since we now have the ability to display pictures and play sound files in these threads, I hope we will see and hear examples of the things that are discussed. Artwork and music created by Moties will be especially appreciated. Keep in mind that this is a family-friendly site. Please refrain from posting blatantly offensive materials. If you are not sure, post a link and give the reader the option.

Thank you for your cooperation.

20. MizPhys - 8/25/1999 1:09:08 AM

I just bought our first season tickets to Geva (Genesee Valley)Theater. I'm looking forward to the first play, "Thunder Knocking on the Door" with music by Keb Mo. We'll also see "The Beauty Queen of Leenane," "The Last Night of Ballyhoo," and others. Last season I saw only "Jitney," which had the best set I think I've ever seen. There was a large plate glass window separating the interior of a cab company from the street, with cars parked outside the window. It was very realistic.

21. MizPhys - 8/25/1999 1:17:49 AM

Geva's page is at www.gevatheater.org if anyone is interested.

22. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 5:48:47 PM

Phys,

Geva's season looks great. I will be seeing The Beauty Queen of Leenane about a month before you. I'd love to compare notes after you have seen it. I'd also like to hear about Thunder Knocking on the Door. Keb'Mo' is great. I have one of his albums and taped another from a friend's collection.

I saw The Last Night of Ballyhoo last spring. I enjoyed it. I was surprised at how gently it made me think.

BTW - the Geva website is accesible only if you spell it theatre rather than theater.

Irv,

See! Many others, besides me, spell it that way!!

23. theDiva - 8/25/1999 5:53:57 PM

a friend?

24. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 5:55:44 PM

Judith,

Several things.

I wouldn't be at all surprised at the extent of theatre activity in Fort Worth. There is a great deal of theatre activity all over Texas and it is one of the things I find most attractive about the state.

I've been racking my brain trying to remember the production of Rough Crossing they did here a few years back. I asked the Ms. about it this morning and she can't remember it either even though she agreed with me that the Rep did it once. We decided it must be one we had to miss and gave the tickets to friends.

I found a New York Times review here you might find interesting.

25. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 5:59:05 PM

Diva,

sweety, honey, baby,

You are my friend aren't you?

Where's the demotion.

You are still my jazz guru too, but that did not seem necessary to put in the post.

Phys,

I was referring to Diva when I said friend.







Does that help??

26. theDiva - 8/25/1999 6:00:01 PM

Nononono

You must say 'My Music Goddess and Dear Devoted Pal'.

(snicker)

27. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 6:06:16 PM

Dear MMGDDP,

I prostrate myself.

keep it clean

28. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 6:07:04 PM

Oh, hell...

How do you get the font size change to work??

29. theDiva - 8/25/1999 6:08:24 PM

I love it when you're reverent.

30. DocBrown - 8/25/1999 6:14:42 PM

Oh, wonderous Jazz guru, may I please ask a humble question?

How did the contemporary Jazz music form get its name? What is it's relationship to the 1920s Jazz that gave the Jazz Age its name?

Hmmm. That's two questions. But what the heck, I don't know about Jazz, so you wouldn't expect me to be able to count.

31. JJBiener - 8/25/1999 6:27:44 PM

Doc - All Jazz music is derived from the same source. It originated in the brothels in New Orleans. It was improvised music played to entertain the clients while they were waiting for . . .uh . . .their main entertainment. Since that time it has evolved through many stages Dixieland, swing, Hot, Cool, Modern, Fusion, Contemporary, etc. Each is distinct, but they are all Jazz.

32. theDiva - 8/25/1999 6:32:56 PM

JJ

There's research which suggests that the origin you cite is largely legendary, at least WRT the origin of the music. I've been reading Ted Gioia's History of Jazz which gives details. I'll bring it in tomorrow and post excerpts.

33. DocBrown - 8/25/1999 6:35:46 PM

Thank you very much for the intro to Jazz history, JJB. I am looking for details for a very special reason. My wife and I are planning to throw a "Jazz Age" party next summer. We want everything to be as authentic as possible.

34. theDiva - 8/25/1999 6:45:33 PM

Doc, only the word jazz has bawdy origins. The word is a form of a vulgarism, jass, which referred to the sexual act. The music may have been played in brothels, but it most certainly did not originate in them. There was a long tradition of field hollers, ragtime, church music, and other forms of musical expression which eventually led to the development of the earliest forms of jazz. More tomorrow.

35. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 6:45:38 PM

But will any real men attend?

36. theDiva - 8/25/1999 6:46:52 PM

ha! Real men play and/or listen to jazz. Listening to James Carter on tenor makes me positively......mmmmmmmm.......of course, it helps that the brother is fly.

37. theDiva - 8/25/1999 6:53:05 PM

Here is an excellent explanation by Bruce Boyd Raeburn, Ph.D., who is the curator of the Hogan Jazz Archive at Tulane University in New Orleans. I've taken the liberty of editing it slightly.

One might say that jazz is the Americanization of the New Orleans music developed by the Creoles, occuring at a time when ragtime, blues, spirituals, marches, and popular "tin pan alley" music were converging. Jazz was a style of playing which drew from all of the above and presented an idiommatic model based on a concept of collective, rather than solo, improvisation.

Ultimately, New Orleans players such as Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet developed a new approach which emphasized solos, but they both began their careers working in the collective format, evident in the early recordings by the Original Dixieland Jazz Band (1917 ff.), Kid Ory's Sunshine Orchestra (1921), the New Orleans Rhythm Kings (1922, 1923) and King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band (1923).

Armstrong's impact became apparent with the popularity of his Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings (1925-28), redirecting everyone's imagination toward inspired solos.

Meanwhile, in New Orleans, community connections such as "jazz funerals" in which brass bands performed at funerals held by benevolent associations continued to underline the role of jazz as a part of everyday life. Jazz may have been a luxury (entertainment) in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, but in New Orleans it was a necessity--a part of the fabric of life in the neighborhoods. And it still is.

(especially in my house.)

38. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 7:07:30 PM

Diva,

I've been looking at all the links in the jass.com site and came across that one too. I think you posted the best explanation short of bringing in your book tomorrow.

39. theDiva - 8/25/1999 7:08:35 PM

Riv, you'd love this book. It's got stuff I've never even heard of. Really amazing.

40. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 7:21:02 PM

Diva,

I wrote the title down.

'scuse me while I get these next two posts ready.

41. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 7:24:12 PM

While I'm on about Stoppard - two of my favorite speeches in any plays are from The Real Thing and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead.

In Act II of The Real Thing, Henry (a writer) uses a cricket bat as a metaphor to explain why we instinctively gravitate toward good writing and away from poor. He is also trying to explain to his wife, Annie, that good writing is not good merely because someone decided it was.



Henry: This thing here, which looks like a wooden club, is actually several pieces of particular wood cunningly put together in a certain way so that the whole thing is sprung, like a dance floor. It’s for hitting cricket balls with. If you get it right, the cricket ball will travel two hundred yards in four seconds, and all you’ve done is give it a knock like knocking the top off a bottle of stout, and it make a noise like a trout taking a fly…

What we’re trying to do is to write cricket bats, so that when we throw up an idea and give it a little knock it might ...travel...

Now, what we’ve got here [referring to what Henry says is a very poorly written manuscript] is a lump of wood of roughly the same shape trying to be a cricket bat, and if you hit a ball with it, the ball will travel about ten feet and you will drop the bat and dance about shouting ‘Ouch!’ with your hand stuck into your armpits.

This [referring to the cricket bat] isn’t better because someone says it is better, or because there’s a conspiracy by the MCC to keep cudgels off the field. It’s better because it’s better. You don’t believe me, so I suggest you go out to bat with this [the poorly written manuscript] and see how you get on.

42. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 7:26:29 PM

And then we have this wonderful speech from Rosencrantz... which I think speaks for itself.

Guildenstern: A man breaking his journey between one place and another at a third place of no name, character, population or significance, see a unicorn cross his path and disappear. That in itself is startling, but there are precedents for mystical encounters of various kinds, or to be less extreme, a choice of persuasions to put it down to fancy; until—“My God,” says a second man , “I must be dreaming, I thought I saw a unicorn.” At which point a dimension is added that makes the experience as alarming as it will ever be. A third witness, you understand, adds no further dimension, but only spread it thinner, and a fourth thinner still, and the more witnesses there are the thinner it becomes until it is as thin as reality, the name we give to the common experience…

“Look, look!” recites the crowd. “A horse with an arrow in its forehead! It must have been mistaken for a deer.”




Doc Brown should think about this one.

[insert stupid grinning thingy here]

43. Judithathome - 8/25/1999 7:27:14 PM

Riv:

Thanks so much for the link to the review. Our cast was an inspired one and I'm sure we had as good a showing as the one you linked.

Did you check out the www.stagewest.org site? This is the first season they have teamed with our Shakespeare In The Park group so we will be getting 3 Shakespeare plays in one season.

44. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 7:34:03 PM

Judith,

Yes I did. Not only are you getting the three Shakespeare plays, but you will get to see two other playwrights I like. Alan Ayckbourn (who is mislabled, in my opinion, as the British Neil Simon) and Tina Howe.

45. Judithathome - 8/25/1999 7:41:24 PM

Riv:

I'm looking forward, also, to the Joe Orton. Not so sure how this town will react to him, tho.

The people who attend these plays are an interesting group. Two years ago, we had a play called The Swan and the young man played half the show completely nude. Some of the younger attendees were embarrassed but the older playgoers took it in stride with an aplomb that impressed me greatly.

They also were very vocal in support of Angels In America. That's what I love about going to live theatre: It's not only the plays that offer surprises!

46. Judithathome - 8/25/1999 7:44:24 PM

I love Alan Ayckbourn and would never curse him with the Neil Simon tag...

47. DocBrown - 8/25/1999 7:52:35 PM

I'm thinking, Riv. I'm thinking. I assume this play is not an anti-hunting manifesto?



[insert stupid grinning thingy here]

48. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 7:59:04 PM

Judith,

Joe Orton is one of those playwrights I keep telling myself I need to read and/or see.

One of my favorite audience stories, and one I use as an example in my classes to show why you shouldn't leave a play until the end, happened at a production of M. Butterfly. A couple (seated next to us) in their 60s walked out during the scene in which Song Ling forces the French diplomat to come to grips (no pun intended) with the fact that his female lover of several years is actually a man. If you have seen the play you know Song Ling does this by taking all his clothes off and eventually getting his "business" in the diplomat's face. So this couple leaves while muttering moralizing statements like, "Why do they have to put this homosexuality onstage?"

If they had just waited 20 minutes and seen why the diplomat kills himself they would have known that homosexuality was not what the play was about.

In fact, they probably would have applauded the diplomat for taking what, to them, would be the only way out.

49. Rivendell - 8/25/1999 8:02:04 PM

Doc,

Yes, but don't tell Ted Nugent.

50. phillipdavid - 8/26/1999 1:24:09 AM

Pincher,


I do have a hankering to read Gladstone, by Roy Jenkins (Not sure about author's name). I saw him on CSPAN's Booknotes about a year ago talking about his book; I found he and his book very appealing. Gladstone sounded like a very interseting fellow (the English Prime Minister in the 19th Century). Anyway, that book has been on my "to read" list for quite a while, and I have never gotten around to it -- yet.

I don't thnik I'll have much of anything to say about Leo Africanus. It was an enjoyable summer read -- put some flavor into a few summer days, but it didn't evoke any kind of special thoughts or comments from me. There is going to be a book discussion on American Sphinx in TT in September. I plan on checking in on that discussion to see what is going on.

I am interested in any suggestions or recomendations you have. I am open -- haven't bought anything to get into yet -- and am not wedded to the Gladstone idea.

51. PincherMartin - 8/26/1999 1:32:28 AM

PD --

I took a look at Gladstone at the Amazon site, and it looks great. Should I order it or do you want to think about it some more?

52. phillipdavid - 8/26/1999 4:06:27 AM

Pincher,

I too just looked at the reviews in Amazon, and it does look very good. I say, let's go for it.

I will try and secure a copy within the next week.

One of the reviews mentioned Gladstone's remarkable diary, which is something that I remember being struck by when I watched the Booknotes interview. He kept a detailed diary of every day of his life for most of his life -- evolved into a massive number of volumes(forget how many; maybe 50?). Another thing I remember being struck by was the fact that he turned Liberal in later life (don't most people rather grow more conservative?).

I will be busy for the next couple of weeks -- school starts on Monday -- but once I get acclimated to work schedule, I will have time and energy to get into it. Look forward to a good discussion with you.

53. CalGal - 8/26/1999 4:18:54 AM

Phillip, Pincher:

Did I ever tell you about The Name of War? The book I read about King Philip's War?

54. phillipdavid - 8/26/1999 4:23:49 AM

CalGal,

No, not me. King Philip - as in the American Indian named King Philip in colonial times?

55. CalGal - 8/26/1999 4:38:48 AM

Yes, Metacom. Being a geocentric Californian, I had never heard of the guy. But it was fascinating to read about the war. The book wasn't a particularly good history, but had some interesting analysis.

I have to go to BB and rent some movies; I'll try and write up a summary of it in a bit.

56. CalGal - 8/26/1999 4:42:52 AM

Actually, I just remembered mentioning it earlier, here. I hadn't read it yet, but it describes the book's premise fairly well.

57. phillipdavid - 8/26/1999 6:02:45 AM

Cal,

That sounds like the kind of book I read in college history classes. The premise reminds me very much of a book by Francis Jennings, The Cant of Conquest. He explained how the psychological, historical, socially devloped perspectives of the whites coming to America --especially the Puritan NE -- worked to shape the nature of the interactions between the the two groups. And, as a philosopher said, since language is the house of being, the language the whites used, such as "savage" worked to justify and shape actions.

I have a shazy twinklling of a memory that King Philip was a white guy who joined an Indian tribe. Is that correct?

58. PincherMartin - 8/26/1999 2:57:11 PM

CalGal --

I think you talked to me about The Name of the War.

Phillip --

I leave for Taiwan tomorrow night. I'll order Gladstone today, so it will be here upon my return, although I don't think I'll be able to finish it before the third week of September.

Have you and CalGal looked up The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt? Wonderful book.

59. theDiva - 8/26/1999 4:51:28 PM

yesterday I promised to post an excerpt from Ted Gioia's History of Jazz concerning the origins of jazz. Here we go:

....the standard accounts frocus on Storyville, a red-light district in New Orleans that existed for a scant twenty years - created by city alders on October 1, 1897, and closed by the US Navy on November 12, 1917 - as the birthplace of jazz music. Close investigation of the facts casts more than a few doubts on this colorful lineage.

Donald Marquis, a leading expert on New Orleans jazz who painstakingly researched the life of Buddy Bolden - commonly credited with being the first jazz musician - was forced to conclude that Bolden "did not play in the brothels. None of the musicians who were interviewed remembered playing with a band in a whorehouse, nor did they know of anyone who had." Even the name Storyville, now enshrined in the jazz lexicon, was largely unknown to jazz musicians at the time. As Pops Foster recalled:

Long after I left New Orleans guys would come around asking me about Storyville down there. I thought it was some kind of little town we played around there that I couldn't remember. When I found they were talking about the Red Light District, I sure was surprosed. We always called it the District.

Foster adds that most of the early jazz musicians did not play in the District. Other sources suggest that piano music was often featured in brothels - though in many instances player pianos were used - and that only a few locations employed larger ensembles. One is left to conclude that, at its peak, perhaps a few dozen musicians were regularly employed in Storyville.

60. theDiva - 8/26/1999 4:56:12 PM

Later on today I hope to post a mini-bio on birthday man Lester Young, a musician's musician if ever there was one.

61. JJBiener - 8/26/1999 6:29:11 PM

Last night I made a major upgrade to my musical equipment setup. It was a birthday present from my wife, but I got to pick out what I wanted.

The main thing I went for is an Alesis QS7.1 keyboard. If is a 76-key controller with 16 MB ROM and 64 notes of polyphony. It sounds great. I also bought a RAM card so I can load my own samples into it. This gives me a virtually unlimited palette of sounds with which to work.

While we were looking around the music store, my wife asked what it would take to get our tape deck out of my studio. As we looked for a tape deck, we found a Tascam 414 4-track Portastudio on sale for less than $300. She asked if that would free up our tape deck and I said it would do nicely. Once I figure out all the buttons and sliders I should be able to make a decent demo tape of the band. When I have a good recording, I will upload it and link it to this thread.

62. RustlerPike - 8/26/1999 6:29:29 PM

"One of the reviews mentioned Gladstone's remarkable diary, which is something that I remember being struck by when I watched the Booknotes interview."

Ouch, that musta hurt!

63. RustlerPike - 8/26/1999 6:35:22 PM

Has anyone heard 'Secretly' by Skunk Anansie? has everyone heard it?

64. theDiva - 8/27/1999 12:29:15 AM

Tenor saxophonist Lester Young was born on Aug. 27, 1909, in Woodville, Miss. and brought up in New Orleans.

65. theDiva - 8/27/1999 12:29:25 AM

Lady's biographer, John Chilton, says:
They first met at a(n October, 1936,) recording session, and their mutuality was instantaneous. At that session, Billie recorded one of her greatest performances - 'I Must Have That Man'; Lester's obbligato and solo are so close to Billie's mood that one could imagine that the two had worked closely together for years - in fact they had only been introduced a few hours before....This initial amalgamation of two enormously talented artists was enhanced by the presence of a third sympatico, Buck Clayton...John Hammond, who organized the session, said, 'There was an interplay between Lester, Buck and Billie that was unique...." Trombonist Benny Morton (said) 'Lester, Buck and Billie were a better match than the other horns.'

66. RustlerPike - 8/27/1999 9:00:41 AM

Has anyone heard 'Secretly' by Skunk Anansie? Has everyone heard it?

67. msgreer - 8/27/1999 9:10:48 AM

RusterPike

could you find your wy back to marj's thread? i would welcome your comments.

68. Judithathome - 8/27/1999 5:09:00 PM

Rustler:

I've never heard it nor have I heard of it.

69. Judithathome - 8/28/1999 11:26:06 PM

Last night, we went to a play that had been given a very poor review by the local theatre critic...he is quite the fool because the play was delightful and I plan to write a letter to the editor tomorrow requesting this reviewer get an attitude adjustment. Of the last 3 plays he's reviewed, 3 were, according to him, miscast. I've seen 2 of them and the casts of both were superb. One was with equity actors and the other was non-equity; however, both plays were done to a professional turn and were most enjoyable to the audiences in attendance.

Why do you suppose this critic is so negative? My feeling is that it is a case of those who can, ACT... and those who can't... bitch about those who can.

70. CalGal - 8/28/1999 11:32:10 PM

Judith,

That doesn't explain those critics who love movies and plays.

There was a long discussion in TableTalk about this (Check the Movies thread, In Defense of Critics). Rask, Cellar, Ace, and I were all involved somewhere. But I'd be interested in your take.

71. glendajean - 8/29/1999 1:49:29 AM

Judith, sometimes critics get a shtick and won't let it go. The woman who writes for the Washington Post, Lloyd Rose, seems to have a particular dislike of playwrights. She rarely has a kind word for the author. A friend suggested this to me a couple of years ago and I've tried to see if there was validity to the complaint. It's true -- that's her consistent complaint, regardless of anything else about a production. There was something this summer where she actually praised the playwright, but it does seem to be a theme of her criticism.

72. Judithathome - 8/29/1999 4:35:51 PM

glendajean:

I feel that is the case with this critic, also. We have about 3 theatre critics at the paper and even more in the city...we have 2 or 3 "underground" papers that actually do a great job of covering cultural stuff. This one critic, tho, seems never to like the cast; he may aim compliments toward one actor in a cast but then say something like "...overall, the cast was disappointing with the exception of..."

His review of the play and the review of the Dallas critic of the same play on the same night are always poles apart. I've often wanted to walk up to him and engage him in conversation at intermission but I feel so antagonistic toward him that I always decide against doing so.


Calgal:

I'll go back and read that discussion; I thought I'd read it but recall now that I only read a few of the posts on the day you first mentioned it.

I know my remarks about this critic were generalizations; he's probably not a frustrated actor. But he does seem to have a "theme", as glendajean mentioned about another critic he reads. The thing I hate about this practice is that it might turn some people away from seeing a play. They might figure this guy knows what he's talking about (he's paid to write reviews, right?) and just skip the performance. Next thing you know, live theatre in this town is hurting for lack of patrons.

73. Rivendell - 8/29/1999 4:54:17 PM

glendajean and Judith,

A couple of things to remember about reviewers who work for general readership publications (most often newspapers).

First, quite often (but not always) they have had no formal training in theatre. They are paid to say what they like and what they do not but they are often no better educated in what they are seeing than the average patron. This has obvious advantages for the newspaper and for the average patron. However, when a theatre company tries something new/experimental these reviewers can be ill equipped to understand where it is coming from.

This is less a problem for movies than it is for plays. Movies still attract a very diverse, and much larger, audience and so there is a place for the "average joe" approach of the typical reviewer. Plays (with the exception of blockbuster musicals), on the other hand, must target specific kinds of audiences and companies must build these audiences up over time. It is much more common for a play reviewer to be out of sync with the loyal audience of a theatre company than it is for a movie reviewer to miss the perspective of the movie-going crowd.

Second, it is much easier to write a negative review than to write constructive criticism. Since most general reviewers lack any training in theatre they are often incapable of offering constructive criticism and so they fall back on the easy out of being glibly negative. It makes the reviewer look better.

74. theDiva - 8/29/1999 4:56:02 PM

66. RustlerPike - 8/28/99 8:00:41 AM


Has anyone heard 'Secretly' by Skunk Anansie? Has everyone heard it?


No.

Hi Riv.

75. Rivendell - 8/29/1999 4:58:08 PM

Hi Div,

Loved the Pres stuff above. Anyone who is inspired by your posts to look up some of the Billie/Pres recordings is in for a treat. They are marvelous.

76. theDiva - 8/29/1999 5:02:00 PM

Thank you, dearest.

I've got to make you a copy of 'The Super Sessions'. Slam Stewart plays bass on a few tunes, and he's amazing - on his solos, he bows the bass instead of plucking it, and hum/sings along. You'd love it.

77. theDiva - 8/29/1999 5:02:37 PM

BTW, did you know that Cannonball wrote 'Sermonette'?

78. theDiva - 8/29/1999 5:05:29 PM

urk. staff meeting.

79. theDiva - 8/29/1999 6:35:14 PM

Here's something adapted from the All Music Guide that fills in the blanks very nicely:

No-one played more lyrically or more inventively and beautifully than Lester Young. His subtle tone was at complete odds with the robust, honking tones of his contemporaries, and his uncommon way of holding his horn at a complete right angle produced a different tone as well. Both were often said to be a holdover from his early work as a clarinetist in territory bands in his youth, but Lester's greatest contributions were his ideas.

80. theDiva - 8/29/1999 6:40:40 PM

Great day for jazz, August 29:

Dinah Washington

Jack Teagarden

Bird

81. theDiva - 8/29/1999 7:01:06 PM

crickets chirping

82. theDiva - 8/29/1999 7:06:52 PM

syncopated crickets, that is, with bullfrogs on bass, cicadas on drums, and mosquitoes on trumpet.

83. wabbit - 8/29/1999 7:16:26 PM

Diva!

Apologies in advance for whining, but I know you will sympathize. As the only member of my family with a functional turntable, I get to make tapes of the old vinyl platters we all have laying around. As we speak, I am recording a couple albums for my mother. Could she give me something to record that I might actually enjoy listening to? No. She gives me...John Davidson. I am about to vomit.

I am a good daughter. Yes, I am.

84. theDiva - 8/29/1999 7:53:44 PM

My God, you are approaching sainthood. Can't you put the rig out on the lawn or something?

85. JJBiener - 8/29/1999 8:07:15 PM

I think I told you about the gig my band had on the 21st. We played for a family reunion down in Webster Groves, a suburb in south St. Louis County. It was a good gig, we were well received.

As we were packing up, a man named Benny approached our guitar player and asked if we would like to play at a ground breaking the next week (Aug. 28). After a few phone calls, we are set to play at 4:30

We arrive about 3:50 to set up and there is another act getting ready to go on. They are scheduled from 4:00 to 5:00. We checked with the organizers and they have never heard of us. Benny had neglected to tell anyone that we were going to play.

The woman with the schedule said it would be a shame to have all of our equipment and not play so she played some scheduling games and worked a spot for us. We ended up with just about an hour to set up, play and tear down between two other groups.

The important thing is that the crowd loved us. We had people up and dancing all over the park. When we were done, we left them wanting more.

There is nothing like playing in front of an audience.

86. JJBiener - 8/29/1999 8:08:48 PM

John Davidson? In 36 states that qualifies as child abuse.

87. theDiva - 8/29/1999 8:25:18 PM

JJ, sounds like a great gig. You're right, there's nothing like a responsive audience. You end up feeding off one another's energy, if you're lucky.

88. JJBiener - 8/29/1999 8:31:11 PM

Diva - Our lead singer, Rich, had his aunt there. Rich is 50 so his is around 70. She came up to my wife and said (pointing to Rich), "I used to change his diapers. Now look at him. I am just so proud." SuzyQ about died.

89. AdamSelene - 8/29/1999 8:33:13 PM

A functional turntable? I still have my trusty Bang & Olafsun turntable with the eliptical diamond setup on top of my component stack. Unfortunately, it's gathered so much dust that I'd be afraid to turn it on.

90. AdamSelene - 8/29/1999 8:33:42 PM

JJ,

I'm looking forward to hearing your mp3 release...

91. JJBiener - 8/29/1999 8:39:12 PM

I had my Technics turntable hooked up and running a couple of years ago. I was recording cassettes for a cross-country trip. It used to have a Grado (sp?) cartrige, but I think it currently has a Shure. It has been a while since I paid attention to it.

92. Uzmakk - 9/1/1999 3:38:51 PM

Biener:

The band is cool. There's no business like show business. Hey, have any of you Californians ever heard a band called France based in the San Diego area?

93. Uzmakk - 9/1/1999 3:48:37 PM

Or Scoundrel. Same band, previous name?

94. Uzmakk - 9/1/1999 3:48:39 PM

Or Scoundrel. Same band, previous name?

95. 109109 - 9/1/1999 4:39:51 PM

Reposted from the wrong thread

When you were in high school, you may have received a public service from Bruce Springsteen. He sang of ghost towns and left women and the broken dreams of the working man, his boardwalk glittered, and his streets were filled with poets. All the while, he played his guitar with a fury to match your drinking and recklessness. You became as much of a rebel as your class would allow. You worked construction and tested the limits of your body by ritual, weekend abuse. And you slowly came to realize that the haunt of
Springsteen's working man could be real to you, even in a vague sense. It's no fun working construction with a hangover, the lure of the beach wanes, bandmates cramped in vans tires just outside of Durham, and college beckons.

That was Springsteen's contribution: a great, tireless live show by a band that is more phanlanx of sound than precisioned group, and a useful reality consonant with that of Springsteen himself. He couldn't go to Vietnam and get Mary preganant and lose that many union cards any more than you could rise to the level of his mythic characters. But you both did the best you could, it forged a certain kinship.

That Springsteen penned three of the greatest rock albums ever ("Born to Run", "Darkness on the Edge of Town", and "The River") while previously creating a work that stands higher than anything in the simplistic vein of rock ("The Wild, the Innocent and the E Street Shuffle") was a bonus, something for you to explore after rebellion seemed less plausible and manual labor less romantic.

96. 109109 - 9/1/1999 4:40:25 PM

With these memories in mind, it was with trepidation that I saw Springsteen live at the MCI Center last night. The last time was in the early 80s during The River tour. I'd seen him once prior during the Darkness tour. The median age in 1999 was approximately 40. The show was pretty much the same, with a little more Vegas influence. A wall provided by Max Weinberg's drums, Gary Tallent's bass, and the piano/keyboards of Danny Federici and Roy Bittan (the latter just coming off of producing last year's best record, Lucinda Williams' "Car Wheels On A Gravel Road"). The guitars - four, but really three, in that Spingsteen's wife plays an unheard acoustic through the evening (some backup singers prefer a non-contributing guitar like smokers require lollipops when quitting) - are besides the point, unless it is the turn of Springsteen, Nils Lofren or Steve Van Zandt to play a lead. And then there is Clarence Clemons, waiting around to wail a trademark saxophone riff.

I should have been warned when I entered the arena and ran into a friend from high school, now a gray haired restauranter. Later, another friend, in whose GTO I passengered many nights while "Candy's Room" blasted from the speakers. I mentioned running into a gray haired expatriate, and he commented that at least he had hair.

97. 109109 - 9/1/1999 4:40:53 PM

The women were alive, duded up, their lips cherried and their breasts made to defy gravity. The men were in preparation for a long night of fist pumping. Springsteen opened with 3 of his first 4 numbers from 'Darkness," the first being the vicious "Adam Raised a Cain." A few new numbers, the obligatory acoustic offerings of an aging rock star (his "Born in the USA" didn't quite make it, despite some nifty slidework by the Boss). After awhile, however, I spent more time looking at the crowd than watching the band. Every word of Springsteen's was accompanied by the audience, couples danced or swayed with each other, looks of nostalgia and fondness for another time were exchanged when a particularly memorable tune was recognized.

Three happenings on the floor were particularly memorable. First, one half of a couple in their 40s was screaming every line - he was once a high schooler offered the Asbury Park menagerie by "the new Dylan." His boyfriend, however, had not been in on the deal, and, bemused, watched his partner with fascination and fear, as if he'd begun to speak in tongues.

98. 109109 - 9/1/1999 4:41:14 PM

Next, the only blacks were the ushers, and as they watched thousands of awkward raving whites pay homage to a lone awkward raving white, they would catch eyes and give that look, "Can you fucking believe this?" I was reminded of Gary Larsen's cartoon where the maestro is introduced to his cublicle in hell . . . populated by banjo players.

Lastly, New Jersey Senator Frank Lautenberg, in his 70s, was toe-tapping 20 feet from me, and if the Senator from New Jersey has a middling seat like mine, it evinces the hold Springsteen maintains on the crowd.

99. stostosto - 9/1/1999 4:42:35 PM

Niner

Where have you been?

Frankly, I have missed you.

100. 109109 - 9/1/1999 4:44:49 PM

Sto

Stop. You'll make me well up.

Actually, I've been in and out of here, getting my feet wet. I've also been over in Table Talk . . . with my own talk show in the White House subject area. Marauding political brawling is a Table Talk specialty.

101. stostosto - 9/1/1999 4:49:24 PM

So, where did you take that brilliant Springsteen reportage from? Rolling Stone?

102. 109109 - 9/1/1999 4:57:35 PM

sto

Ha ha ha.

No. Entertainment Weekly.

103. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 5:01:24 PM

Niner:

You have started my day on a high note...excellent reportage; I feel as though I attended the concert without the hassle of actually going.

Back in the day, when I was cast as the older woman to a callow 20-something, I presented him with a copy of Born To Run. He was underwhelmed, being more into some sad shellfish cult type thing. He took my offering of quality and heated it in the oven and fashioned a flowerpot holder out of it. I think of that now and then and realize some things were not meant to be. Ah youth....pretty but dumb.

104. stostosto - 9/1/1999 5:15:30 PM

Niner
Your reportage made me think of the Springsteen concert I saw back in 1988 (Tunnel of Love tour, I think). I also felt inspired to do a reportage, and if I'd been on the Internet back then, I'd have surely done it. I had actually worked out the angle pretty well, I thought. A party. That's how I felt. It wasn't so much a performance of an artist in front of an adoring audience as it was a huge party where everybody had a great time, only some of the attendants happened to be on stage hammering, blowing and shouting. Great thing.

105. stostosto - 9/1/1999 5:30:51 PM

I also saw Bob Dylan that year. He was basically pissing at the audience, seemingly not giving a shit. Of course, many devotees proclaimed how simply demonstrated his elevated genius. I had this distinct "I want my money back" feeling.

106. theDiva - 9/1/1999 5:32:05 PM

I saw Dylan with Tom Petty in '86 at Madison Square Garden. God, did that show bite. The sound was lousy, the two of them were half in the bag, the band limped along. Awful. I think we lasted 30 minutes before we left.

107. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 5:56:03 PM

At the risk of being labeled an old fogie, I saw the best Dylan concert ever: The Ruban Hurricane Carter tour, Bob Dylan and the Rolling Thunder Review: it had everything. Leon Russell, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Joanie Mitchell, and tons of people I can't remember and as a warm-up band: Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys. This concert went on forever and he was on stage the entire time.

Of course, the story of Ruben Carter was less happy in the long run but that concert was one of the best I'd ever seen. And I couldn't stand Judy, Joanie, and one other act that was there but the over-all performance was a big TEN.

108. theDiva - 9/1/1999 5:56:56 PM

My God, Kinky Friedman. I remember that tour.

109. CalGal - 9/1/1999 6:11:58 PM

God, I hate live concerts. I can never see, which means I can't hear.

The only memorable concert experience I had was the Eagles Hell Freezes Over tour. I was in Sacramento, of all places, on a consulting gig. Had nothing to do and this was a "makeup" concert--they'd had to cancel an earlier gig because Frey had health problems.

Anyway, I'd ordered a ticket but had hung up before the confirmation, so it was cancelled. Had to drive down early to get a seat at all, and was growling at myself for being stupid. So I was standing in line to buy a ticket for a lousy seat and this woman came up to the line and said, I have one good ticket that I'm selling for $200. Anyone interested?

I have this rule that I will always pay whatever it takes to get a better seat. And in this case, I was going to pay $100 to sit somewhere in the screaming hordes of the back center, so it wasn't even a close call.

I looked at the ticket, saw the number 12, and figured 12th row was worth it. Paid the $200.

It wasn't the 12th row, though.

The ticket seat was C12. C, as in the 3rd row. Center. Right smack dab in front of Henley (when he wasn't on the drums), Frey, and Felder. In front of the TV screens. Whole different experience that close.

And, if you like the Eagles, it was a great fucking concert.

I didn't go to concerts all that often before, but after that I refused to even consider going again unless I got seats as good. And since I'm not devoted to building a working relationship with scalpers, it's unlikely to happen.

But lordy, that one time was fun.

110. CalGal - 9/1/1999 6:27:22 PM

Actually, I lied.

The other great concert experience I had was seeing Van Halen at the Oakland Auditorium, in 1978.

I was also up close--although not on purpose. I was attending with my friend, Julie, and she wanted to stand in the middle--no seats, just crowds of people. Fine, I said--the neophyte. She went to the bathroom just as the first group came out (Def Leppard, I think?).

Bam! Everyone rushed forward. I got caught in the traffic and ended up 8 feet from the stage, and 4 feet off the ground. At that time, Van Halen was the band of choice for 18-25 year old males, all of whom seemed to be surrounding me at that concert and screaming lustily for "Eddie! Eddie!"

I had a choice--get stomped on, or leap up as high as I could and let the body crush hold me up. At 16, being suspended mid-air and held securely in place by young male bodies wasn't all that bad a proposition. (Hmm. It still doesn't sound all that bad at 37, come to think of it.)

That was a great concert. The music was pretty good, too.

111. theDiva - 9/1/1999 6:35:00 PM

Question for the group:

What are you listening to right now?

112. theDiva - 9/1/1999 6:48:16 PM

Okay, I'll go first.

I'm listening to the Kansas City Band's KC After Dark. This incredible CD features tunes recorded for (but not used in) Robert Altman's picture Kansas City. (There is, however, a video which simply shows the musicians jamming as they would have in KC in the 1930s. Great stuff)

Some of the best young players of today are on this CD: Mark Whitfield, James Carter, Cyrus Chestnut (these three I had the privilege of seeing at Blues Alley this spring), Nicholas Payton, Kevin Mahogany, Geri Allen, Joshua Redman; and some seasoned veterans of the jazz scene.....Ron Carter, Don Byron, to name two.

This is 30s jazz done much in the spirit of its time. The music was recorded live and there is a spontaneous immediacy to it; the players obviously have a great deal of affection for these compositions. At the same time, they bring a fresh perspective to the work and this makes the music so very exciting.

Song list:

St. Louis Blues (done with an amazing tempo shift)
Cherokee (Basie would have loved this version)
two versions of Back Home in Indiana
Harvard Blues (Kevin Mahogany powerfully on vocals)
Prince of Wails, a sax battle between Joshua Redman and James Carter
Froggy Bottom, featuring a growly brass section
Piano Boogie, the only contemporary composition on this CD, written most likely on the spot by Cyrus Chestnut and Geri Allen
King Porter Stomp
Tickle Toe, a Lester Young composition, with exhilirating solos and syncopation by Don Byron, James Carter and Joshua Redman.

Buy it, buy it, buy it.

113. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 8:21:59 PM

I went to a concert in 1978 when I was dating my now ex. It was in Boulder CO in the football stadium. It was Earth Wind and Fire, some group I can't remember, and the Beach Boys. I actually had a good time sitting in the grass only about 1/4 of the field away from the stage.

However, I mostly remember that I sunburned the tops of my feet so bad they blistered and I couldn't get my low-quarters on. So I got a letter of reprimand for "damaging government property".

114. theDiva - 9/1/1999 8:23:25 PM

My God, to have seen EWF in 1978! How amazing that must have been.

115. JJBiener - 9/1/1999 9:07:05 PM

Diva - I am listening to Pat Metheny's Imaginary Day. It features Lyle Mays, Steve Rodby and Paul Wertico. It is good music to listen to while you are pretending to get some work done.

116. CalGal - 9/1/1999 9:17:12 PM

I have an hour commute right now, and am listening to the following at one time or anothe:

• Queen's Greatest Hits, Volume (whichever one has Fat Bottomed Girls on it)
  
• Follies: 1985 Live version
  
• Beachboys Greatest Hits
  
• Lyle Lovett Road to somewhere or other (Ensenada?)
  
• Annie Get Your Gun (Bernadette Peters and Tom Wopak)
  

117. Dusty - 9/1/1999 9:20:53 PM

Beethoven Symphony #5

Hungarian Philharmonic

OK, not the best version, but it was handy.

118. stostosto - 9/1/1999 9:43:34 PM

Beethoven #5!

That is music! I have a version with the Dutch Concertgebouw; the best one I have heard. The second movement is particularly thrilling. Dammit, I get goosebumps just thinking about it! (And I am not a classics geek - though I wish I were).

My recording is on an old vinyl record though, and my record player is out of order - has been for over a year now. I gotta get myself pulled together it's just bad form to have your entire record collection standing idle like that...

119. CalGal - 9/1/1999 9:49:26 PM

My favorite Beethoven symphonies are 2 and 6.

120. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 9:52:45 PM

I'm listening to Erik Satie, my fave. Talk about mellow!

121. theDiva - 9/1/1999 9:53:35 PM

What # is the Pastoral? That one's my favorite. I love the second movement in particular...so dark and melancholy.

122. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 9:55:48 PM

I think it's the 6th.

123. CalGal - 9/1/1999 9:58:49 PM

Yes, it's the Sixth. Opening with that gorgeous cello section, yes?

124. theDiva - 9/1/1999 10:00:36 PM

yup.

125. CalGal - 9/1/1999 10:02:43 PM

Yes, I'm a cellist from way back.

I like the Second because I think he has the most interesting variations in the first and second movements. Plus, it's a very happy first movement. Lots of fun to listen to.

Although I haven't listened in quite some time. I'll have to pick up some CDs pretty soon.

126. stostosto - 9/1/1999 10:09:13 PM

CalGal

Can't claim to know those. #6 - is that the one also known as "Eroica"?

But. But. But. How about that gloooooooorious 9th? Have you seen 'A Clockwork Orange'? (Sheeesh. Do cats purr?)

127. theDiva - 9/1/1999 10:12:16 PM

Sheesh, they come outta the woodwork when ya mention classical but say one word about jazz and the place becomes a desert.

I feel so rejected.

128. CalGal - 9/1/1999 10:12:44 PM

No, I think it's the third that's known as Eroica. The one dedicated to Napoleon, or something?

Yes, I know the Ninth. I've never been overly enamored of it, although I agree it's used to nice effect in Clockwork Orange.

129. CalGal - 9/1/1999 10:17:45 PM

Diva,

Actually, I forgot to mention another CD I listen to regularly, but I doubt you'd approve. It's Clapton's From the Cradle CD.

130. theDiva - 9/1/1999 10:29:42 PM

Cal, you certainly don't need my approval. Gosh, I really hope I don't give the impression that I sit in judgement of other's musical tastes! (Riv, disregard this last. I am continually in judgement of your musical tastes, but that's my job as your Guru)I certainly don't mean to. Anyway, I do love Eric Clapton. Excellent blues chops for a Brit. Nice choice.

131. cmboyce - 9/1/1999 10:31:24 PM

Hey, Diva, I'm listening to Coleman Hawkins' Picasso, right this very minute.

Which is not to take anything away from Beethoven, of course. The Eroica is indeed the one dedicated to Napoleon, but Ludwig yanked the dedication after Boney declared himself Emperor and renamed it "The Heroic", ie, Eroica.

132. theDiva - 9/1/1999 10:32:21 PM

EEEEEKKKKK!!!!

xoxoxoxoxoxoxox!!!!!

133. theDiva - 9/1/1999 10:33:17 PM

CM, I was wondering what to play next. Now I've got it...Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster.

You da man.

134. CalGal - 9/1/1999 10:34:05 PM

Diva,

What's odd, though, is that with all the great songs on that CD, my favorite is the one that was also used as a single. Motherless Child, I think it's called? No clue why, but I can listen to that song a great deal. And it's probably the most atypical track on the CD (given that it's exclusively blues, I mean).

CM--it was the third, yes?

135. JonesAtLaw - 9/1/1999 10:48:13 PM

Diva- when I was in undergrad, Jay McShan would come to Lincoln once a semester to the Zoo bar. It's a wonderful blues bar that seats about 125 people. A great place for music, very intimate and with just the right feel for jazz and blues. He is a wonderful performer, and if you close your eyes you could travel space and time to the time when KC was the hotest place going.

136. Dusty - 9/1/1999 10:53:16 PM

stostosto

I was listening to the sound track from Clockwork Orange last evening. One of my favorites.

And I love the Ninth. Heaven.

137. Dusty - 9/1/1999 10:55:42 PM

stostosto

One of my favorites records was the music from Clockwork Orange, except played by (I think) the London Symphonic Orhestra. I've tried to find it on CD, but failed. It was wonderful.

138. theDiva - 9/1/1999 10:59:29 PM

Jonesie, I am green with envy, I love Jay McShann. Sounds wonderful.

139. cmboyce - 9/1/1999 11:09:08 PM

Gee, thanks, Diva. What can I put on next? (g) I don't know the CH/BW album, though I've always like both. (When I was a boy, I was a deb party goer; I can't help it, it just came with the franchise. Anyway, the bands ranged from garden variety local dayjobholders to Lester Lanin. But one night, someone had Ben Webster. This being c. 1960, I'm sure I didn't hear him at his best, and I've no idea who else was in the band, but the difference from LL was like day and night (and Lanin was actually pretty good, compared with some of the others, at least so it seemed to my still-unformed tastes). I learned a lot that night.)

Cal: Yes, the Third. And to my mind (and probably most), one of the Big Four: 3, 5, 7, 9.

140. BunEBear - 9/1/1999 11:09:28 PM

I'm not currently listening to anything, but the following are currently sitting on my desk:

• Bach: Well-tempered Clavier, performed by Glen Gould
  
• Thelonious Monk: Alone in San Francisco
  
• Sonny Sharrock: Ask the Ages
  
• Henry Kaiser: Re-marrying for Money
  
• Brahms: Piano Trios
  

141. CalGal - 9/1/1999 11:16:51 PM

CM,

Actually, I like them all quite a bit. 3, 8, and 9 are the ones that I am least interested in. I've played 5 and 7 in my youth and love them both. 2 and 6 I love just cuz. What's that leave--1? I'm not sure I remember that one right now.

142. cmboyce - 9/1/1999 11:24:24 PM

I think #1 is purely and simply Mozartian. Probably pretty good (like you, I don't actually remember it), but not yet Beethoven. Might this description apply to #2, also? And I like 'em all too, but I don't actually get up and play any but the four (maybe once in a decade, # 6, "just cuz").

Are you saying you played 5 & 7 in an orchestra?

143. CalGal - 9/1/1999 11:34:06 PM

Yes, it might apply to #2, but I am very fond of the variations in #2. So I'll agree that #2 might not be particularly Beethoven--but it's lovely.

I was third chair cellist in the California Youth Symphony--which, despite its title, was Northern Cal only. (but to us NorCals, there is no other California). We played the fifth one year, the seventh another.

144. cmboyce - 9/1/1999 11:39:40 PM

Having now caught up with the reading of this thread, I see that you are a cellist. Great stuff. Do you still play? Were/are you a professional?

(BTW, I have to leave here in about 10 minutes, to pick up my daughter, followed by dinner out and then my wife usually gets the computer in the evenings (on the frivolous grounds of gainful employment), but I may get back later tonight.)

145. cmboyce - 9/1/1999 11:44:43 PM

That sounds wonderful! (I agree about CA. Southern California--below the line, say, Cambria-Modesto-Bakersfield-Bishop--is definitely part of Nevada.)

146. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 11:50:51 PM

Tomorrow night, we are going to a one woman show called "Introducing Bonnie Parker" and there is a Meet The Star (and author) reception afterwards. I've read lots of good buzz about this play and am really looking forward to it.

They are bringing the Bonnie and Clyde car from the movie and we'll be able to see it prior to the play, a cutsey gimmick but might be fun.

There are 6 of us going and I've invited everyone over for Greek snacks before the show. I hope we aren't sitting there with grumbling stomachs during the play. Maybe the ouzo will have a calming effect. :-)

147. JonesAtLaw - 9/2/1999 12:09:05 AM

Diva- who says there's no culture out here on the plains! The Zoo also brings in a lot of Chicago blues artists. I've seen Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, Lonnie Brooks, Magic Slim, JB Hutto and the Hawks, The Fabulous Thunderbirds and more than I can remember there. Truly the best part of my education.

148. stostosto - 9/2/1999 12:14:16 PM

JonesAtLaw

"We learned more from a three minute record
than we ever learned in school."

149. EricCartman - 9/2/1999 12:14:17 PM

Every couple of days, I'll pick out 10-12 CDs to listen to while I'm surfing and posting.

In the player right now: Classic Queen -- the companion disc to the one Cal mentioned earlier, this one has all the overseas singles on it, where the other one has the American hits.

In the stack:

• Moody Blues Days of Future Passed
  
• Black Crowes Southern Harmony and Musical Companion
  
• Various Artists Raspberries Preserved -- Tribute album to one of America's most underrated pop bands.
  
• Beethoven Symphonies 2 & 8 -- London Classical Players I enjoyed the Beethoven discussion earlier.
  
• Frank Zappa Sheik Yerbouti
  
• Andrew "Dice" Clay The Day the Laughter Died (2CD)
  
• Todd Rundgren A Wizard, A True Star
  
• King Crimson Red
  
• The Cult Sonic Temple
  
• Tesla Radio Active -- Bootleg I picked up in Germany about 8 years ago, and got it autographed by the band in '95.
  
• Deep Purple Live at California Jam '74 -- Mediocre mix, but that concert has sentimental value for me. I remember seeing a live telecast on an LA station (the concert was at Ontario Speedway, and drew over 300,000 people), and seeing Purple, Black Sabbath, The Eagles, and ELP. Purple closed the day memorably -- guitarist/curmudgeon Ritchie Blackmore attacked a cameraman by nailing the camera with his guitar, and the band left in a helicopter to avoid Blackmore's imminent arrest. If that's not rock 'n roll, I don't know what is.

  150. EricCartman - 9/2/1999 12:29:37 PM

151. theDiva - 9/2/1999 3:06:20 PM

CM, you saw Ben Webster in 1960? Egads. I may die.

152. msgreer - 9/2/1999 3:13:00 PM

Excuse the spam but I have been looking for Diva.

DIVA has your work email been changed? I wrote to you yesterday and it goes bounced back to me. Then I sent it to your yahoo.com and it went through/\.

This morning I had the same problem with you work email so I tried yahoo again. Both emails bounced back to me.

Any ideas???

153. msgreer - 9/2/1999 3:13:39 PM

goes=get

154. theDiva - 9/2/1999 3:25:28 PM

Good morning, dearest. I got them both. Very odd that you'd get those messages. Have you slept?

155. msgreer - 9/2/1999 3:31:50 PM

Diva

Last night was my first reasonable sleep.

I will let this thread get back to the discussion and email you at nwork.

Let me know if you receive it.

Thanks my dear.

156. theDiva - 9/2/1999 3:38:20 PM

okay.

157. Rivendell - 9/2/1999 4:35:04 PM

Judith,

I look forward to a full report on Introducing Bonnie Parker when you have the time. Who is the author?

The Mrs. and I will be seeing Lanford Wilson's Book of Days in three weeks. I can't wait.

Msgreer,

Apparently there is some distress in your life I have not seen in the threads I normally inhabit. Sorry to hear it and hope things continue to get better for you.

Diva, oh Guru mine,

Money Jungle is playing right now, but alas another class beckons. See me later.

158. theDiva - 9/2/1999 4:35:41 PM

Riv baby

We have got to cybercate. I miss you.

159. Rivendell - 9/2/1999 5:29:00 PM

Diva,

Cybercation will be forthcoming (why does that sound like an activity which requires flossing after??).

160. theDiva - 9/2/1999 5:33:25 PM

ahem. It can be if you do it right. WHEEEEEEE!!!!!

Have you read my latest bodice-ripper?

161. stostosto - 9/2/1999 6:41:22 PM

Diva

Sorry I didn't comment on your jazz post. I am equally ill-founded in jazz and classics, so there is no reason why I should eschew the former and not the latter.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but Copenhagen was actually a kind of home away from home for a pearl string of American jazz musicians in the 60s. I think Ben Webster was one of them. There is a lingering influence from that here, though it is probably fading. My parents were jazz enthusiasts, and have a record collection including all the big ones such as Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, the Duke, and Count Basie to Miles Davies. But not much further.

One record I have been listening to a lot is a compilation of Charlie Christian recordings. This pioneering guitarist - introducing the electric guitar as a solo instrument - sadly died very young. I think he played with Benny Goodman for all of his recording career, so we are tallking swing music here. Performed with zest and joyful imagination.

Music to make you sing inside.

162. stostosto - 9/2/1999 6:43:32 PM

When I said "My parents were jazz enthusiasts", I meant "My parents are jazz enthusiasts". They are alive and kicking.

163. Rivendell - 9/2/1999 6:47:57 PM

sto,

Music to make you sing inside

What an apt description. A CD that fits the description, which is on my current short-list, is Pres and Teddy - the Lester Young/Teddy Wilson Quartet. And in particular, the cuts All of Me and Louise.

Good stuff.

164. Rivendell - 9/2/1999 6:49:37 PM

Diva,

I read the bodice-ripper.

And???

It was certainly an easy one to picture. You chose the cast of characters well. Especially liked the descriptions of Ad and Wabbit.

165. theDiva - 9/2/1999 6:58:47 PM

Goodness, sto, don't apologize, I was just being petulant.

Interesting you should mention Charlie Christian, I was just reading about him last night. I'd never realized that he'd only recorded for about three or four years. What a loss.

And, I'd heard about Copenhagen wrt jazz. Didn'tR Miles and Coltrane record a live concert there in 1960? I can't remember the name it, but they used it in 'Jerry Maguire' (which was the hippest thing about the movie, IMHO.)

Riv

Glad you liked the bodice-ripper. Whaddya mean 'AND???'

166. Rivendell - 9/2/1999 7:02:15 PM

Diva,

Was there some part of that itty-bitty three letter word which requires further explanation?

167. theDiva - 9/2/1999 7:06:11 PM

wise ass. It does say 'THE END', doesn't it?

168. phillipdavid - 9/2/1999 9:43:22 PM

BookCloseout.com -- a nice place to buy books inexpensively. I just bought a book that costs $24.50 at Amazon for $7.99 instead.

169. harper - 9/2/1999 10:50:24 PM

Off to see Bruce Springsteen this evening. I brought along the earplugs just in case the sound system is cranked WAY UP.

170. RickNelson - 9/3/1999 4:44:35 AM

Discovered Haavikko tonight.

"Only through the unanswerable questions can the world be depicted... The only meaningful freedom is that of the individual. Every system desires to offer every other kind of freedom except this one.

P.H.

"Always aware of the traps of language, and even fond of language games, Haavikko rejects solutions per se.... His essential stance is that of a conservative anarchist who has decided that neither optimism nor pessimism really apply to individual human history, any more than they apply to the history of trees."

From Poems For The Millennium, page 476-477.

171. CharlieL - 9/3/1999 9:17:49 PM

I'm listening to Richard Thompson's "Mock Tudor." I'm not sure if I like it.

I haven't been posting here lately. I keep forgetting to take the URL to work with me, and we;ve been practicing and recording like crazy the last few days.

We've got basic tracks to eight songs in the can now, and have another all-day session scheduled for Friday the 10th, and we're playing in DC on Saturday the 11th, as well as almost every weekend until November.

I am constantly amazed at how well this bass records. I've been playing the six-string Modulus and the acoustic four string Taylor bass guitar on this session, and they are both awesome. It doesn't help things that I am envious of the board we are recording through, it's a Yamaha digital 24-track board with automated faders and mixing.

It was also nice seeing harper last Saturday at Paddy Mac's. We're at fado on the 11th.

I'm also going to be playing octave mandolin and whistle on this CD, and that should be very interesting, as I have never played either in front of people before (my dog likes the whistle though, especially when he can hear it and I can't -- do you think I might be playing too hard?)

172. phillipdavid - 9/4/1999 5:32:26 PM

Harold Bloom, author of "Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human," (Riverhead Books) will be in TT on Tuesday, Sept 7 and again on Tuesday, Sept 21 to reply to questions/comments posed in a thread which has been set up (Books folder).

173. Uzmakk - 9/4/1999 11:59:23 PM

Hey y'all, hope you don't mind if I list the three CDs that were in my player for a couple days last week

The McGarrigle Hour
Makin' a Mess, Bob Gibson sings Shel Silverstein
American Dreamer-Songs of Stephen Foster : Thomas Hampson, baritone

Great shuffle mix, keeps me happy for hours.

174. Uzmakk - 9/5/1999 12:02:51 AM

CharlieL:
What fun. Are you in the DC area? I ask my questions first and go back and read the whole thread later.

175. Uzmakk - 9/5/1999 12:02:53 AM

CharlieL:
What fun. Are you in the DC area? I ask my questions first and go back and read the whole thread later.

176. Uzmakk - 9/5/1999 3:46:00 AM

Pellenilsson:

I would like to return to a discussion of our joint project, The Complete Haysweep Treatise by Pellenilsson. I am still unclear as to the nature of this project. You seem to have some type of mystical attachment to, what appears to be, a rather simple mechanical contraption. What precisely, do you envision CHT to be? I already have some ideas for the design of the book, but they hinge on the (mis?)conception that we are dealing with a very dry and straighforward dissertation on a piece of antique machinery. Am I correct? Be straight with me, Pellenilsson. If there was more to those haysweep posts than a description of a haysweep I did not get it. Talk to me, Pelle.

177. CharlieL - 9/5/1999 5:46:10 AM

Uzmakk - Yes, I live in the DC area, Southern Maryland to be exact.

178. stostosto - 9/5/1999 12:45:45 PM

CharlieL
Are you a professional bass player? What's the name of your band? What kind of music do you play? Have you released any CDs previously?

179. CharlieL - 9/6/1999 4:20:26 AM

sto^3; I used to play full-time, in fact, I played six nights a week, 50 weeks a year for 13 1/2 years. I now play part-time in 180. alistairconnor - 9/6/1999 5:18:29 AM

Have you any idea how you did that, Charlie? Flashing source code in Netscape... hadn't seen that one yet.
Now, how are we going to fix the page?

181. alistairconnor - 9/6/1999 5:20:03 AM

I think there was a problem with the formatting of the Taters link, but I'm buggered if I can see what it is.

182. alistairconnor - 9/6/1999 5:22:42 AM

I suggest you re-post your 119, Charlie, (hint: Preview it first!) and get the original deleted.


Sto, I can tell you that the Fabulous Potato Heads have fans in both France and New Zealand (though they may well have sold only one copy in the two countries combined... To me.)

I have been waiting impatiently for that second album for, well, over two years now.

183. cmboyce - 9/6/1999 6:35:30 AM

Diva: yep, Ben Webster, 1960 (at least circa). I presume the former datum is the source of your envy.

Sto: I think Chet Baker was in Copenhagen for a while as well.

184. pellenilsson - 9/6/1999 10:19:12 AM

uzmakk

I think your memory is a little selective. That remarkable series of posts of mine back in the old PlayPen (starting at post #2) actually began with advice on how to erect a hässja, a kind of elongated hay stack. I then proceeded to describe what I called the contraption' (or contrap) for short, the device that our research has revealed to be, in fact, a hay sweep.

On a superficial level it is perhaps, as you say, a very dry and straightforward dissertation on a piece of antique machinery but there are powerful undercurrents of nostalgia and longing back to a simpler and purer world. I cite:

I would love to drive a contrap again. To judge the sweep to get the right load and then to tip it off at the exact spot where it would be most convenient for those stacking the hay. Very technical stuff and very enjoyable with a good horse.

I think I should work in a bit more such stuff and maybe add some of the folklore myths surrounding all this - the signs to be made over the Hay Sweep before and after the work, the fact that the horse must be given a mouthful of hay from the first sweep of the day and so forth.

On consideration, I think the title should be The Hay Stack and The Hay Sweep; a Journey into the Land of our Grandparents. But I am open to suggestions on this and all other matters, and I look forward to hear about your ideas for the design.

185. Uzmakk - 9/6/1999 1:34:31 PM

You are right, Pelle, I do not remember all of the posts, but I do remember commenting on the necessary skill of the horse and horseman. Very good, things are becoming clearer. Some questions--

• Do you intend to have any illustrations? Simple line drawiings do not sound like they would be out of place.
• Do you have any idea how many pages the book would contain? Sounds like it will work out to be a slim and elegant little volume.
• We must consider a typeface. Something just slightly on the antique side seems like it would fit the bill. Goodness!!! Are we working in Swedish or English?

186. theDiva - 9/6/1999 4:23:33 PM

CM

Yes, daggone it! I was but a mewling, puking babe in those days. You know, when Coleman Hawkins arrived in Copenhagen for the first time (some time during the 40s) he was greeted by 5000 shrieking Danes and carried on an ornate chair to his car. I am consistently impressed by the reverence with which Europeans treat jazz and jazz musicians.

187. cmboyce - 9/6/1999 4:46:28 PM

Uzmakk and Pelle: please put me on your subscription list (supposing, of course, that the book is to be cheaper than such a machine itself).

Diva: yes, it would have been nice to be a jazzman in Europe in the '50s.

BTW, have you read Hopscotch? There are excellent passages describing Paris-in-the-50s takes on jazz, ranging from Bix and other players of the 20s up to (I think; it's been 30 years since I read it) the War.

188. theDiva - 9/6/1999 5:06:43 PM

CM

No, I haven't. Is it a novel? Who wrote it?

189. Uzmakk - 9/6/1999 6:53:35 PM

Ah, Boyce, a subscriber. You have helped Mr. Pellenilsson and I over a psychological barrier, the crossing of which, I am certain, will keep us busy exploring and refining this project. Thank you.

190. alistairconnor - 9/7/1999 12:21:54 PM

The Hay Stack and The Hay Sweep; a Journey into the Land of our Grandparents. While working on the book, that would make a pretty good thread, a rich vein to be mined with tales of simpler times and sounder values, for nostalgic urban refugees like me to bask in, and for street-smart city slickers to sneer at (that's what city slickers do best).

191. pellenilsson - 9/7/1999 12:27:13 PM

Alistair

Yes but we recently had one along these lines. Remember Remembrance of Things Past?

192. alistairconnor - 9/7/1999 12:42:40 PM

Um yes it rings a bell, in those days I was "too busy" to keep up with reading the threads...

Anyway, that was a long time ago on a planet far away.

193. Uzmakk - 9/7/1999 2:13:12 PM

My very brief comment concerns nostalgia for those simpler times. When the horses were being replaced by tractors on the farms out west do you not think that the farmers were extremely grateful for the simplicity the tractor added to their lives. Instead of unhitching, cleaning, grooming, and feeding the horses, magnificent beasts that they are, for an hour after coming off the fields one simply drove the tractor into the barn and swithced it off. And how about the maintanence of those horses in the off season? Simpler times? I don't know.

194. pellenilsson - 9/7/1999 2:24:27 PM

uzmakk

I'm sure you are right. In fact I lived on a small farm (six cows, some calves, hens, a pig and a horse) in about 1950 when tractors started to appear (they had been used on big farms much earlier). But we are not going for rational facts here; we are going for nostalgia, a sense of loss, esoteric feelings, which will make people like cmboyce want to cough such large sums of money as we shall demand for the exquisitely designed books.

But I have really no time. My Mozambiquan counterparts await my words of wisdom in the meeting room. I will write something down tonight and post tomorrow morning.

195. pellenilsson - 9/7/1999 2:26:18 PM

uzmakk

Also.

Horses get tired, tractors don't.

196. Uzmakk - 9/7/1999 2:33:27 PM

Quite so regarding the book, Pelle. A book that will positively exude the elegance and quality of a bygone time both in its content and physical manifestation.

197. JonesAtLaw - 9/7/1999 5:50:40 PM

Uzmak is correct about some of the relative benefits of tractor vs. horse. However, I would note that some old order Amish have always done well with horses and more organic management. Horses have lower costs to go along with their lower productivity.

More in keeping with the posts, after you're done for the day, your clydesdale can be coaxed out for a little cowboys and indians for your 8 year old. My father and his best friends played cowboys and indians on a clydesdale, a couple quarter horses and some shetland ponies. My father, the smallest and skinniest kid was on the clydesdale of course, and the fat kid on the pony. It must have been a sight!

198. cmboyce - 9/7/1999 6:00:39 PM

Uzmakk and Pelle: Hey yeah, sounds good! (Now get crackin'!(g))

Diva, Hopscotch is by Julio Cortazar, an Argentinian writer. It was published in the '50s (I think) and is regarded as the (or at least "a") fountainhead of the modern Latin American novel. It's about an Argentine ex-pat in post-waar Paris, to oversimplify brutally. Among the decandences indulged in are all-night bullshitting sessions on jazz. It is famous for a convoluted superstructure: each chapter concludes with a line directing you to "Reread Chapter x"; at the beginning of the book are instructions, telling you that on finishing the book you are to reread it according to the directions at the end of each chapter. Thus, one gets a very long series of flashbacks. Most of the chapters get reread (all but one, in fact--its qualities and why they're thusly omitted are grist for the cognoscenti), many more than once, one six times (as I recall). The only person I've ever heard or read of who followed this trail to its end was a friend of mine who was writing a thesis on the book. If one were to do so, it would something like quintuple the length of an already long book (c. 600 pp?). Just tracing it through and seeing which ones get the most attention and in what order was quite entertaining, however (or so it seemed to my Joyce-struck, dope-drenched undergraduate self).

I think this may sound off-putting, but it is really a great book, full of wondrous stuff--and the jazz-oriented passages are among its finest jewels.

199. theDiva - 9/7/1999 8:51:00 PM

So anyway Riv.

I'm listening to Chucho, of course. Which Mingus do you have on? The album, I mean. And yes, I'd forgotten you were taping the Mahogany for me. Duh.

I also think it's time for you to get some Basie in your collection. I was listening to the Decca recordings...1936-38....including the originals of songs that the KC band covered. Real good stuff. You know how certain kinds of music just make you laugh out loud with enjoyment?

200. theDiva - 9/7/1999 8:51:42 PM

Oh God, CM! I posted that before I saw your answer to me...what a goof ball I am. I'll read it right now.

201. theDiva - 9/7/1999 8:53:29 PM

Okay.

Actually, that sounds quite interesting, and rather appropriate since Riv and I were just discussing Chucho Valdes. I don't know a great deal about Latin-American literature....just Isabel Allende, mostly....but that sounds like a good read. I'll pick it up. Thanks for the tip.

202. theDiva - 9/7/1999 8:56:31 PM

Did I happen to mention, Riv, that he riffs on 'Rhapsody in Blue' cumbia style? (Oh, and there's a flute on this, but I don't know who it is. The copy I got was a promo and didn't have liner notes.)

203. JJBiener - 9/7/1999 8:57:52 PM

Diva - Ahhhh! That's more like it.

BTW, When did KC and the Sunshine Band record Basie?




(g)

204. JJBiener - 9/7/1999 9:00:20 PM

Diva - I put on Danzon by Arturo Sandoval in your honor.

205. theDiva - 9/7/1999 9:01:39 PM

Mucho gusto! Gracias!

206. Rivendell - 9/7/1999 9:03:13 PM

Diva,

It is Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus. It was originally produced by Bob Thiele for Impluse in 1963. Sir Charles does a Mood Indigo you would swear was the inspiration for the second cut of Solitude on the original KC album.

207. theDiva - 9/7/1999 9:11:40 PM

Ah yes, I forgot that you'd gotten that one. Yummy, eh?

208. Rivendell - 9/7/1999 9:22:57 PM

Diva,

Yummy indeed. And there is a CD bonus track called Freedom that features some of Mingus' lyrics. It has a mournful gospel feel to it. I think you'd like it.

209. CharlieL - 9/8/1999 2:26:41 AM

Sorry about the original link problem, Alistair. I'll try again.

The band's link is here. I may have left the closing double quote off the original posting. I'll check it now for dust...

(After chacking) Looks OK to me mow.

210. alistairconnor - 9/8/1999 8:18:29 AM

To be sure, to be sure, and don't forget to chack yur spulling while you're in preview mode now.

211. pellenilsson - 9/8/1999 11:21:26 AM

uzmakk

This is in reference to your #185.

First, we will be working in English. The Swedish market is not large enough for an exclusive undertaking like ours. Second, I'm thinking of going for the limited collectors' edition first and then do a 'popular edition' when the word has spread. Third, you have to excuse my unfamiliarity with bookbinder terminology. I hope to learn as we go along because it is an art that fascinates me. Fourth, I think we are, indeed, considering a slim volume with a rather, shall we say, generous design in terms of lay-out and type-face. We must assume that part of our target audience (I will come back to that) will be elderly people with poor eyesight. They like such books.

I like your idea of hay paper. But if we are going to have leather covers can we use that paper for the title page inside the book. (There is of course a technical term for that page?) (Note the upward inflection in a declarative phrase?.)

Concerning the line drawing on the cover I think that is a fine idea, but we have to be careful. There is a rather painful fact I now have to reveal to you. You remember my last effort Traces of Mithraean Influence on Early Bogomil Church Sculpture. It was printed in one thousand copies. Nine of them went to libraries which are bound by their statutes to pick up everything printed, twenty-five went to the author (as his only remuneration). Thirty-two were bought by friends and relatives of the author. The remaining 936 books were pulped twelve months after printing.

212. pellenilsson - 9/8/1999 11:23:15 AM

uzmakk
(contin'd)


I attribute a significant share of the blame to that grotesque picture on the cover. I think it frightened off many, not least the important mildly religious, middle-aged spinster segment. Yes, uzmakk, I know it was representative; I know you only offered your advice; I know I took it on my own responsibility. I'm just saying we have to be careful. Considering that our first target group might be the Moties (and think of the new crop that will arrive - there might be any number of collectors of expensive oddities among them), I think we need something basically normanrockwellesque, but at the same time refined and sophisticated, in order to appeal both to their intellectual snobbery and their essential peasant heritage.

I am looking for drawings now.

213. Uzmakk - 9/8/1999 3:21:18 PM

Funny thing, Pelle. I was going to post yesterday that you should consider me less an artisan and designer and more of a craftsman for this project. This way the only limits that I put on the project are practical ones, what can be done and what cannot, and the project remains almost completely your baby. Have a great deal to say in response to your last post, but am very busy all the way into the evening today. But a quick comment on two points--

• Hay endsheets would work well, the title page should be on text paper.
• Your concern with the market for this book is clearly justified. cmboyce is clearly a 1) rabid bibliophile, 2) has money to burn, or 3)both.

214. pellenilsson - 9/8/1999 3:56:15 PM

uzmakk

I would go for 3) re cmboyce. But I don't think we can finance the whole project with one subscriber. I am surprised that not more of them have sprung forward to support us in our hour of need.

I have found a drawing.



Unfortunately it is not of the type I described. This must be some early American variant which not even our grandfathers remember.

I will continue looking. In the worst case we can maybe commission an artist?

I regret now that I mentioned anything about the other book. Your talents as artisan and designer are sorely needed.

Don't you feel that there is another project brewing around here? The Best Short Stories From the Mote; Tales of romance, passion and danger told in the matchless style and incomparable wit you only find in the Mote - home of the sharpest brains on the Net.

215. theDiva - 9/8/1999 10:59:41 PM

Today is the anniversary of the birth of Otis Redding.

I recommend a moment of silence as an appropriate commemoration of this man's great artistry.

Then, go dance your buns off to 'Mr. Pitiful'.

216. cmboyce - 9/9/1999 2:20:12 AM

Pelle and Uzmakk, you guys better get off the pot, here, or I'll burn the money I might otherwise have spent on a copy. And if it has a Normanrockwellesque cover I may have to burn it, too.

I want to hear more about the Mitraic influence on Bogomil sculpture. That sounds like the sort of volume I could build a new wing of the library around. Double elephant folio, right? Wonderful old b/w photographs fairly weeping with nostalgia for the days when stones were stones and carvers were carvers, etc., etc.? Wooooonderful!!

217. Uzmakk - 9/9/1999 4:55:23 AM

Pelle:

Your words of warning regarding the impression on the front cover are wise. I never really considered that the rather shocking impression on the front board of the Mithra book may have worked against you, but you may be right. For this I am sorry. It is not difficult to imagine, in the project currently under consideration, that the poorly sighted demographic that you mention might look at the cover of the book, see a machine with two rows of ominous spikes, and concieve it to be a machine of torture or slaughter. The title wouldn't necessarily steer them in the right direction, some torture devices having the most innocent, sometimes playful, sounding names: the iron maiden, the rack. Why not the haysweep? Good point, Pelle. Let us not move too quickly.

Boyce:

As you can see, there is much to consider here. Art is not a bed of roses, and the selling of art even less so. I think it is clear that Pellenilsson and I are looking at the big picture here, and I don't think we should be rushed. Your patience would be appreciated. I leave the description of the Mithra book to Pelle. It was his baby, after all.

Stick with us, Boyce, and we shall give you an object around which it is worth building the new wing of your library. You are clearly a bibliophile, Boyce. How exciting.

218. Uzmakk - 9/9/1999 5:28:56 AM

Pelle:

Other projects? Absolutely. And not just bookish projects. Don't forget the Fray Log Boat, which has been renamed The Mote Boat. I shall do a brief dissertation on this project soon, during which I will heap praise upon the local wizards, designers, architects, and crew.

219. cmboyce - 9/9/1999 5:45:46 AM

Splendido!

220. alistairconnor - 9/9/1999 6:50:55 AM

Pellzmak :

Considering the need to drive sales with an artistic cover, perhaps something Smiles of a summer night-ish would do the trick? Young lovers artistically rolling in the hay sort of thing.

221. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 9:17:19 AM

uzmakk

Why not the Moat Boat?

alistair

That is a very good thought. Or lovers in the hay with artistically disarrayed clothes, oblivious to anything but each other, while the Hay Sweep ominously moves up on them?

uzmakk again

No more funds yet but we certainly get support on the creativity level. (I think alistair will commit soon).

222. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 11:33:36 AM

I feel that many people don't really have an idea about how the hay-sweep works. Here is another picture of the American sweep. You may want to refer back to #214 which shows it loaded with hay and drawn by two horses.



The things which look like gates on the sides are hinged. When the load of hay has arrived to where it should be, the horses are walked around to face the other way. The sweep is drawn away from the current load and starts to collect another one.

The later version, which is the subject of our project, is more sophisticated with a rotating part. I started on a simple drawing in AutoCad yesterday night but the damn machine died on me and I lost it. But never give up! Check this space regularly.

223. alistairconnor - 9/9/1999 11:40:33 AM

Pelle, I suggest a field trip to rural France. You will find a variety of rustic examples in near working order, I'm sure we threw out something that looked remarkably like your figure 95 just a couple of years ago.

224. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 11:47:51 AM

alistair

I don't want to see such hay-sweeps. I want my kind of sweep, the one I used to drive 40 years ago.

But your use of "we" intrigues me. Please expand.

225. alistairconnor - 9/9/1999 11:55:25 AM

Well. "We" is self and Madame. Our decrepit farmhouse in a singularly backward corner of rural France had been used as a family junkyard for a couple of centuries before we bought it ten years ago. Where does archaeology stop and junk start? Matter of taste. In the early sixties for me.

To give you an idea of the area, a few years ago a neighbour was still ploughing certain fields, the ones that were too steep for his tractor, with a pair of oxen.

226. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 12:03:21 PM

alistair

Very interesting. I have travelled but a little - and not recently - in the French countryside and I was amazed at the backwardness of certain things. It is interesting and worthwhile that old ways are preserved but not, I think, through refusing all attempts to reform EU's Common Agriculture Policy.

The place to go now to see farming as it once was is Poland.

But we are straying. Soon JJ will sweep down on us.

227. alistairconnor - 9/9/1999 12:11:01 PM

Well, this is not strictly arts nor music, but I completely support the Confédération Paysanne in its current symbolic campaign against the Mcdonalds company. I'm a Luddite and I'm proud of it.

228. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 12:29:58 PM

Modern Luddite Thought could be an interesting subject in a Science/Technology thread. I'm not joking.

229. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 12:34:09 PM

After I posted I recalled a semi-off-topic discussion in spudboy's thread about how modern large-scale agriculture destroys a way of life and its social fabric. It attracted quite a lot of interest.

230. cmboyce - 9/9/1999 3:30:20 PM

I agree, Pelle. Good topic. I think it may be that any seriously innovative period stirs reaction and the reaction we refer to as "Luddite" is appropriate to this period, which is so strongly driven by mechanical invention (and its morph, technological invention). Other periods of innovation have produced different foci, such as, say, iconoclasm, or xenophobia, or Great Awakenings, etc., etc. Luddism, especially in the metaphorical sense in which we use it today (ie, without special reference to the economic and political woes of 18th-19th-century English craft workers, let alone the weavers of the Midlands in particular) is interesting as demonstrating a strain in mass psychology.

231. cmboyce - 9/9/1999 3:33:50 PM

Alastair, don't throw that stuff away; sell it! There's quite a market in "antique" farm implements, and by "antique" is often meant anything pre-WW2 (sometimes even later); anything literally a century or two old is money in the bank. Contact a Paris dealer. Become a Paris dealer, if indeed you have a barnful of the stuff.

232. JonesAtLaw - 9/9/1999 5:23:19 PM

Cmboyce- So right, not only do you get money for the stuff, you can take comfort in the fact that someone's home will be a bit less sterile and have a bit more charm in the bargain.

233. JJBiener - 9/9/1999 6:25:38 PM

Pelle - Swoop! Since this discussion started out as a discussion involving bookbinding (an art for sure), I have let it continue. Since I am a strong proponent of freedom and independence, I will offer no more than a slight nudge to get you guys back on topic. If you can find a tie in to the thread topics, then by all means continue.

234. RickNelson - 9/10/1999 4:09:42 AM

Rosario Castellanos 1925-1974

Two Meditations:

I
Consider, my soul, this texture
harsh to the touch, which is called life.
Notice so many threads wisely joined
together, and the color, dark, noble, firm
where red has suffused its splendor.

Think then about the Weaver: her patience
in starting again an always
unfinished task.

And hate, afterwards, if you can.

II
Little man, what would you do with your reason?
Bind up the world, the mad and furious world?
Castrate the colt called God?

But God breaks out of his tethers
and keeps engendering magnificent creatures,
wild beings whose shrieks
shatter this bell jar.

translation from the Spanish by Julian Pulley

235. RickNelson - 9/10/1999 5:02:27 AM

Metaphor of life and soul. Intricacy and asthetic allusion in the dynamic of the weavers art. Longing for an end to burdens.

236. pellenilsson - 9/10/1999 9:24:33 AM

My dear uzmakk

I have thought deep, hard and long on our project and have come up with several ideas, on which I seek your urgent advice regarding practicability.

When I get back to Stockholm I will visit the Nordic Museum, our main repository for folklore and such. They are sure to have a treasure trove of pictures. I will select some of them. The selection will be based on technical clarity, but also on general ambiance. Our only subscriber, cmboyce, expressed strong feelings about the normanrockwellesque thing. We are now going for a Lady Chatterly atmosphere which I'm sure he will like soo much better. Nothing obvious, mind you. Just enough to tingle the dried-out loins of our elderly readers and amuse the younger ones. So I will look for strong, manly men silhouetted against the sky with attractive, seemingly submissive maidens hovering in the background, a couple of buttons undone because of the heat and the hard work. If necessary I will undo them in Photoshop. The question is: can such pictures be bound into the book covered by, you know, that kind of flimsy paper for which there is a technical term I don't know. India paper? China paper?
.
If we are doing the bibliophile edition in leather, can we provide it with a ??? (a band that holds the covers together)? Not the type that snaps closed, but one which is tied with a thin leather strap. Very classy, in my view.

237. pellenilsson - 9/10/1999 9:27:27 AM

And what about scent? Can books be scented? I'm sure you can do it. I'm thinking about that distinctive old-book scent. And then a box. You mentioned you were making a special box for a special Shakespeare edition. We should have one. Imagine the following:

(And you Moties who have not yet subscribed; you imagine it too!

It is evening, rather late. The house is quiet. The living room, or the den, is dark except for a circle of light around your favourite armchair. A glass of something, or a cup of something, is on the low, small table. You pull out the box, you sit down, you open it, you feel the scent, you are transported to a world of yore as you reverently take out the book, unlatch it and start turning the beautifully designed pages. A moment of tranquillity in a busy world.

And now to the most difficult of all. Is it possible to create a cardboard fold-up model of the hay-sweep to be inserted in a specially designed pocket inside the back cover? I have finished the drawings. I'm looking for a way to post them.

I realise that all this is a challenge to your skills. But they are immense.

238. pellenilsson - 9/10/1999 9:31:38 AM

JJ

Warning acknowledged. I have made a couple of drawings (also an art) which I'll try to find a way to post. But after that no more "technical" posts, I swear.

239. pellenilsson - 9/10/1999 9:42:07 AM

Diva

I've brough four CDs here and I'd like your opinion on their suitability for their purpose, which is mood-matching. The moods are:

1. Up-beat
2. Even
3. Melancholy
4. Depressed

And the CDs

1. Louis Armstrong: Pops: The 1940's small band sides with Jack Teagarden and others.

2. Duke Ellington: The arrival of Billy Strayhorn.

3. Tommy Dorsey. No title but it starts with 'Marie' and has 'After you've gone' and 'Stardust' on it.

The fourth is not a jazz record and it is not for matching the mood but to counteract it. It is 'The Very Best of Stan Freberg'.

Whaddaya say?

Satchmo is on right now.

240. Uzmakk - 9/10/1999 2:47:27 PM

Pelle:
Just letting you know that I have read your post which is full of the most interesting of questions and ideas. I will come up with a post soon. I am working this weekend, but will take care of the really important things, like The Mote and Project Haysweep, before I tackle the more mundane tasks.

All you jazz aficionados:
I also have a collection of jazz records and CDs of which I am quite fond. I fully intend to order a copy of the Fabulous Potato Heads CD, 'cause I like that kind of music too and their particular mix sounds very interesting.

CharlieL:
I lived in Annapolis for a number of years a number of years ago. Are you familiar with the band Silverspring.

Biener:
My request for info re: agents etc. was a long distance communication and as yet I have received no word back. Still working on it. I am certain that the end of the trail will end in the following advice, however, "Get yourself and agent and watch your ass."

241. pellenilsson - 9/10/1999 2:53:32 PM

uzmakk

I'm off for a late lunch now and won't be back until tomorrow (which is 17 hours from now). So don't feel (too) pressed.

242. Uzmakk - 9/10/1999 3:08:22 PM

Good stuff, Nelson:

and how about weaving new, different, diverse materials and ideas together for the first time, Godlike in our ability to Create.

243. Uzmakk - 9/10/1999 3:10:19 PM

Excellent, Pelle. Will think today and post tonight.

244. cartmhan - 9/10/1999 7:23:05 PM

Hello all (Moties and former Fraygrants)!!! Just registered this afternoon (it's 12:17pm here). I usually listen to most types of music...such as garbage, Barry Manilow, Garth Brooks, etc. However...I wont be getting his latest work....sounds too much like Tracy Chapman.

245. cartmhan - 9/10/1999 7:24:05 PM

I was referring to Garth Brooks's latest work, which is his attempt to do pop music.

246. JJBiener - 9/11/1999 5:33:42 AM

Carts - I will grant you that Garth sounding like Tracy Chapman could be a bit disconcerting. However, if you think about it, it could only be an improvement over the pap he normally puts out.

247. Angel-Five - 9/11/1999 5:41:09 AM

Biener.

Am I to understand that you are getting serious WRT the band? How's that going?

248. Angel-Five - 9/11/1999 5:49:44 AM

This is res, BTW.

249. JJBiener - 9/11/1999 6:02:41 AM

A5 - Glad to see you could make it. Welcome.

The band is going great. We have had a couple of gigs and we have been very well received. We have a couple more tentatively scheduled for this month. We also have gigs scheduled in November and December.

I just recently bought some new equipment which I am still learning how to use. One piece is a multitrack tape deck which I hope will improve the quality of the recordings we have been making. Right now we are using two cheap mics and a Radio Shack tape deck. Once we get a decent recording, I will post a link to a couple of MP3s.

I am also looking for new ways to exploit the songwriting I have been doing. This requires making contacts with the right people. I have been attempting to use the web to that end. I have had some interesting results. We'll have to see how they pan out.

250. God - 9/11/1999 6:30:12 AM

I like K's Choice's: Not an Addict. I've been trying to find Bryan Adams' Have you ever really loved a woman? in MP3 format somewhere. Seems all the good MP3 sites have been busted already.

251. cartmhan - 9/11/1999 8:03:50 AM

What is even errie is that Garth Brook's character that is on the new album will be made into a movie. That's right..a movie. Could be worse. Imagine William Shatner as a country star....now I suppose I have made some of you lose your breakfast on that thought.

Here is a Believe It or Not situation: William Shatner did three albums. Thats right..he did 3 and the last one he did with Ben Folds Five. I have a copy of that very CD "Fear of Pop". He appears in three cuts and they are really, really bad. The other two he did was "The Transformed Man" and "The Shatner Christmas Album". The latter is out of print..I dont know why though. After all..if Yoko Ono's entire catalog is released...why not his?

252. Uzmakk - 9/11/1999 1:58:19 PM

Pelle:

Everything you mention is possible.

• The paper used to guard pictures is called glassine paper and is a bit different than the thin tissue used on older books. Ofcourse, illustrations can be included.
• Leather straps, no problem. Would you like bone or metal clasps? The clasps are not snaps. The metal ones, attached to a delicate leather strap, fit over a peg in the foreedge of the back board and the bone clasps fit into a little leather loop in the same location.
• Haysweep in a pocket, yes.
• Box, yes.
• Price, through the roof.
• Scent, possible, but perhaps undesirable. Aside from the natural smell of the material, the leather and perhaps some leather dressing: neatsfoot oil, lanolin, beeswax, whatever formula one chooses to use -- I think much of the smell of the average old book derives from its maltreatment. I think we could scent our books, if that is your desire, by storing them in a dank basement and observing them weekly for signs of foxing, mold and mildew, a sort of ageing process. When signs of deterioration occur we could remove them to a friendlier and more controlled environment where, hopefully, they will spend the rest of their long and happy lives giving untold pleasure to those who love them, emitting the delicate perfume of our artificial aging process.

253. Uzmakk - 9/11/1999 2:14:30 PM

Pelle:
We need something "refined and sophisticated, in order to appeal both to their intellectual snobbery and their essential peasant heritage." Ah, Pelle, I think you have spoken volumes here. This puts us on the right track, I think, but how to get the formula just right? Thus far we have only one subscriber.

254. Uzmakk - 9/11/1999 2:31:40 PM

I hate to say it, but I think that perhaps we will have to exploit the sensuality of leather angle: the feel of the leather, quite thick on the boards; the slight give, like that of living flesh; the odor; the opening of the book on buttered hinges; it throws back and lays out.....Ahhhh, the pleasures of the finely bound leather book.

255. Uzmakk - 9/11/1999 2:56:40 PM

from here it is not difficult to imagine the fine beads of sweat surely visible on the ample bossoms of the peasant girls whose blouses you have cleverly unbuttoned using the latest in computer technology.

256. Uzmakk - 9/11/1999 3:01:44 PM

I speak here, ofcourse, of our illustration on the front cover. BTW, it is possible to do rather elaborate colored illustrations on the cover through the use of leather onlays.

257. RickNelson - 9/11/1999 6:12:55 PM

The Jewel

There is this cave
In the air behind my body
That mobody is going to touch:
A cloister, a silence
Closing around a blossom of fire,
When I stand upright in the wind,
My bones turn to dark emeralds.






poems by James Wright; printed in, "The Branch Will Not Break", published 1966.

258. RickNelson - 9/11/1999 6:13:55 PM

mo bedder mobodies...

259. RickNelson - 9/11/1999 6:20:21 PM

JJ Beiner,
I welcome direction, would you rather introduce a sub thread for creative pursuits? One two or ...? Writing, Music ...?

260. RickNelson - 9/11/1999 6:26:07 PM

Life
Me
You
a space,a sense
soul
burden
strength!

261. pellenilsson - 9/11/1999 7:42:19 PM

uzmakk

I'm glad tho hear that the things I brought up are practicable. I yield to your judgement on the scent issue, i.e. forget about it.

I hate to say it, but I think that perhaps we will have to exploit the sensuality of leather angle: the feel of the leather, quite thick on the boards; the slight give, like that of living flesh; the odor; the opening of the book on buttered hinges; it throws back and lays out.....

Yes, uzmakk, yes! Pure genius. There are a lot of repressed leather fetishists out there who live out their desires through things.

I will post the pictures here. But right now I must attend to the Maputo sub-thread. Marj is threatening me with unspeakable punishments if I don't. The pictures will be up shortly after noon tomorrow my time, which means, I guess, early morning at your place.

262. JJBiener - 9/12/1999 3:04:15 AM

Rick - I am enjoying your posts, so I hate pointing this out. The Stories, Short and Tall, is probably the best thread for creative expression. If you want to continue posting here, I have no objection, but you will likely reach a larger audience over there. I think the choice is yours.

263. KurtMondaugen - 9/12/1999 3:12:38 AM

Hey, JJ, how goes it? Saw you mention some of your gear in some previous posts. What kind of software are you using with your setup? Just curious.

264. JJBiener - 9/12/1999 5:29:05 AM

Kurt - Welcome. Good to see you again. Until recently I had been using Cakewalk. However, when I bought an Alesis QS7.1 it came with MicroLogic AV and SoundDiver. I have been learning them and I think I will end up using them full time. I am also using Virtual Waves to create samples, and I am using CoolEdit 96 for sample editing.

What have you been up to?

265. KurtMondaugen - 9/12/1999 9:23:34 AM

Oh, I've been trying out lots of stuff. I've familiarized myself with CoolEdit as well, in addition to numerous other toys you may or may not know. Currently trying to learn CuBase in order to run the GRM-Tools, but that's sluggish work coming at it blind. Looking forward to comparing notes (and learning how posting sound-files here works).

266. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 12:12:05 PM

uzmakk

I realise the difficulties you have laboured under when you don't even know how my kind of sweep looks. Here are some drawings, not much, but the best I can do with the simple tools I have here.

We must be careful now. I have promised our host that I'll only make one more "technical" post. Well, for technical reasons there will be three but I hope that JJ will agree that in a moral sense it is only one. Naturally you may have questions and comments and maybe some of the others will join in too. But let us not, this time, digress into antiques dealing in the French countryside and so on. I feel we are making good progress and are approaching the production phase.



In this side view we see the driver holding the handle with its lever. It is hardly visible at this scale but it is under the handle and is actuated by closing the hand fully. The cylinder is actually two: an inner and an outer shaft that can rotate relative to each other. To understand that is to understand the secret of the sweep.

267. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 12:24:29 PM

When the sweep is pulled forward the hay collects on the spikes. When the sweep is full, the driver presses down on the handle lifting the tips of the spikes a couple of inches from the ground. When he arrives at the destination of the hay he actuates the lever to release the handle. He moves it down, lets go of the lever, lifts the whole shambuckle (TM sto^3) so that the tips dig into the ground, and voilà the spikes rotate 180 degrees and are now projecting backwards. The hay, of course, stays on the ground ready to be attacked by maidens with hay forks.

When the driver wants to start collecting again, he uses the lever to put the handle almost parallel to the gound and gives a mighty heave so that the spikes again rotate and come in the forward position.

The operation of de-loading the hay is the driver's most exacting one. If the sweep is heavily loaded, the tips may dig into the ground as soon as they are lowered and the driver who is not ninble and dexterious may not have time to release the handle.Then the handle rotates as well creating an embarrasing situation where the horse has to be backed while the maidens laugh their butts off.

268. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 12:32:59 PM

Here, finally, are details of the mechanism that achieves the rotation. I consider the drawing self-explanatory.

269. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 12:37:04 PM

A big thanks to Irving who agreed to host these drawings on his web site!

270. Uzmakk - 9/12/1999 12:59:58 PM

An ingenious mechanism, Pelle. And a one man operation, instead of two. I can understand your fascination with this particular sweep. You did, infact, operate a sweep of this type when you were a younger man?(note upward inflection). Anyway, Pelle, your above post was a very important one for me. Things are much clearer now. To center things on this ingenious haysweep makes sense to me, where as the previous stock drawings were uninspirational.

Your mention of sto3 reminds me that I heard Benny Anderson on a taped 1997 Prairie Home Companion (A Public Radio International live radio variety show) last night. According to the host every Dane knows and loves Benny Anderson(poetry, songs, piano). True, sto3, should you chance to read this? How 'bout you, Pelle, Benny Anderson?

271. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 1:10:09 PM

uzmakk

I like Abba of course and their sound, but I cannot say that I have a particular fancy for any of the members. It escapes why Danes should like Benny is particular, but sto will know.

272. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 1:25:05 PM

uzmakk

I forgot to comment on the drawings. Yes, they are poor, but they do give a picture of how the thing is operated. When I get home I'll find out which companies made them and try to get a copy of the construction drawings. That wold help immensely with the model. I think it is possible. We are great ones for filing things away in archives.

I have some ideas for a working model (not to be included with the book) but I have let matters rest here because I have infinite work to do before the end of the day.

273. Uzmakk - 9/12/1999 3:04:36 PM

I don't think this Benny Anderson is part of ABBA.

274. pellenilsson - 9/12/1999 3:09:29 PM

Abba doesn't exist anymore. But definitely was part of them. Ask sto if you don't believe me.

275. Seguine - 9/12/1999 10:09:04 PM

For cool eclectic radio, check this out:

http://www.broadcast.com/radio/Public/WFMU/

It's a local station, broadcasts out of NY and East Orange. You need RealPlayer to listen (it's a free download).

276. theDiva - 9/12/1999 10:17:19 PM

Seguine

My GOD!!!! I can't tell you how you've made my day with your post.

My dad did his show for years on that station. I practically grew up in the control room.

Thanks for bringing back some nice memories.

279. Seguine - 9/12/1999 10:46:10 PM

I hasten to endorse Mondaugen's link too.

280. Seguine - 9/12/1999 10:47:19 PM

Diva, what kind of show did your dad do? Jazz?

281. theDiva - 9/12/1999 10:55:06 PM

Seguine

Mostly. When I was a kid, they called it 'free form', and they basically did what they wanted. So, for example, if Dad played 'Mulligan and Baker at Carnegie Hall', and a recording of Pablo Casals doing Bach would sound good with the Mulligan/Baker cut, he'd do it.

282. Seguine - 9/12/1999 10:59:26 PM

Diva,

That sounds superb.

283. theDiva - 9/12/1999 11:02:39 PM

Sequine

It was, and is. My father has a fabulous pair of ears, and an encylopedic knowledge of recordings and of jazz. It makes for the most unlikely yet surprisingly brilliant combinations. I think that his current station may be accessible via the 'net. I'll post a link if it is.

284. theDiva - 9/12/1999 11:03:39 PM

Egads, the only thing worse than a doting mother is a doting daughter. I'll stop now. Good night, all.

285. God - 9/13/1999 7:50:49 AM

JJ, if you get a chance, could you please post your email address on the Censorship Page (assuming you're still going with the vote idea). I would do it, but Res tells me that the address posted in Suggestions was incorrect. Thanks. Feel free to delete this, btw.

286. Uzmakk - 9/13/1999 8:02:02 PM

Pelle:

The concentric shaft mechanism is still a bit of a black box for me, but this is not important. Do I have all the information that I need? Do I understand the "secret of the sweep"? I look forward to drawings from the Nordic Museum. I am afraid the next step is yours--we need a text. WRT pricing, we must finalize a design, I must know how many pages, we must choose a paper etc. but this can be done quickly once we decide we are ready to move. I think we should do a bit more planning and then produce an elegant written prospectus done on the text paper and in the type face of the finished book. A single sheet broadside perhaps. What do you think?

287. pellenilsson - 9/14/1999 11:25:57 AM

uzmakk

You are right on track. The text is in the works. I've had another thought coming in respect to that. I said back then, rather haughtily, that we will do this in English because the Swedish market is too small. But it is there. Suppose I'd do a Swedish version as well, carefully sticking to the same number of pages, where the illustrations should come and so forth. Would that add very much to overall costs you think?

The prospectus idea is excellent.

288. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 1:07:24 PM

Pelle:
I think we are going to end up doing project on the computer with a lazer printer. This makes the English-Swedish thing quite easy. I talked to another binder who does more on the printing end than I do and he said that he is working on a project in which the title page will be done in letter press and the remainer of the work will be done with lazer printer. I have seen nothing done in this fashion so I cannot speak from experience. I have not even seen anything done on a lazer printer. I expect that you have. Your thoughts? What about permanence? I don't want to do anything that will last for less than 500 years.

289. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 3:35:04 PM

Anyway, Pelle, I find this all very interesting and very much fun. The printing will be farmed out to competent professionals at any rate, it not being my specialty. My specialty will be the first specially bound 20 or twenty-five volumes of the run.

290. theDiva - 9/14/1999 3:45:15 PM

Today is the 71st anniversary of Julian 'Cannonball' Adderley's birth. My favorite alto saxophonist got his nickname while still a child....he had a voracious appetite, and the kids called him 'Cannibal'. This eventually morphed into 'Cannonball'.

From Fantasy Jazz, an excellent biography:

Julian "Cannonball" Adderley (1928-75) was a high school band director in his native Florida, following in the footsteps of his educator-father, before moving to New York in 1955. He initially planned to pursue graduate studies in Manhattan; but after sitting in with Oscar Pettiford's band at the Cafe Bohemia, the alto saxophonist became an instant sensation, hailed by many as the musician most likely to assume the mantle of the late Charlie Parker. Despite misguided promotional efforts to christen him as "the new Bird," Adderley clearly had his own approach to the horn, which drew on the inspiration of Benny Carter as well as Parker. He took advantage of his early notoriety, however, by forming his first quintet, which featured his younger brother Nat Adderley on cornet. While the group struggled economically, Cannonball did draw the attention of Miles Davis, who featured the alto saxophonist in the immortal Miles Davis sextet (alongside John Coltrane and either Red Garland, Bill Evans, or Wynton Kelly) for two years beginning in late 1957.

(more)

291. theDiva - 9/14/1999 3:45:35 PM

In September 1959, Cannonball left Davis and reunited with Nat in a new Cannonball Adderley quintet. Recorded live one month later at San Francisco's Jazz Workshop, the band became an immediate success with their version of Bobby Timmons's sanctified waltz "This Here" and a leading practitioner of what came to be called soul jazz. Numerous other hits followed over the next 16 years as the band occasionally swelled to sextet size (with the inclusion of Yusef Lateef or Charles Lloyd) and featured such important pianist/composers as Barry Harris, Victor Feldman, Joe Zawinul, George Duke, and Hal Galper. Sam Jones and Louis Hayes formed the original rhythm section, to be succeeded later by Victor Gaskin, Walter Booker, and Roy McCurdy. At the heart of the group's success throughout its existence were Cannonball, one of the most impassioned alto (and, later, soprano) saxophonists in jazz history, and Nat, whose infectious compositions (including "Work Song" and "Jive Samba") formed a critical part of the band's book.

(more)

292. theDiva - 9/14/1999 3:45:54 PM

While a knack for interpreting funky crossover material such as Zawinul's "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" won the Adderley quintet one of the jazz world's largest audiences, Cannonball's personality also played a pivotal role in sustaining the band's prominence among fans worldwide. He was the most articulate and engaging of musicians, and he invariably educated his listeners with wry commentary that illuminated the music. He was also a voracious listener and talent scout who introduced several prominent musicians through both employing them in his ensemble and serving as a studio record producer. Cannonball was the one who called Wes Montgomery to the attention of Riverside Records, produced the debut recording of Chuck Mangione, and collaborated so brilliantly with a young Nancy Wilson. The open, affirmative personality he displayed on stage was reflected in his music, which over time was touched by the subtle eloquence of his former boss Miles Davis and the exploratory intensity of his Davis colleague John Coltrane.

(more)

293. theDiva - 9/14/1999 3:46:26 PM

Adderley also served as a prominent spokesperson for jazz through extensive television work and residencies at several universities. Shortly before his death following a stroke, he had recorded his original music for "Big Man," a "folk musical" based upon the life of John Henry.

******

294. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 3:59:21 PM

Cool, Diva.

295. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:06:50 PM

Cannonball is amazing. I am kicking myself right now because not only did I leave all my jazz books home, I also failed to bring in any of Cannonball's recordings! Bill Crow's Jazz Anecdotes has some really fun Adderley stories. I'll have to bring it in tomorrow and post a few.

Incidentally, if anyone (Hi Riv) has a copy of Kind of Blue, make sure to listen to it today....Cannonball is on it, as you probably already know.

296. Rivendell - 9/14/1999 4:08:04 PM

Don't got Kind of Blue with me. Got Somethin' Else though.

297. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 4:10:08 PM

Hey Diva. I have the Long John Baldrey album with Rod Stewart, Sir Elton, and perhaps a few other "luminaries" on the recording. Do you think it is worth something?

298. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:10:24 PM

Can you believe I left those CDs at home?!?!?! I have such a hankering for a nice long repeat playing of 'Sack O' Woe'.

299. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:11:03 PM

Sorry, Uz, I'm not familiar with that recording. I couldn't really say.

300. Rivendell - 9/14/1999 4:19:33 PM

Diva,

I was wrong. I have both with me. Sack O' Woe, unfortunately, is not on Somethin' Else. But Alison's Uncle is. That cut features a dynamite drum foundation laid down by Art Blakey. It gets me going almost as much as Joshua Redman's How Come U Don't Call Me Anymore on Timeless Tales.

301. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:30:20 PM

sniffle

I don't have anything like that with me today! WAH!

302. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:53:36 PM

whatta maroon. I have Mingus Ah Um and 'Round Midnight with me. 40 lashes.

303. IdiotWind - 9/14/1999 8:01:06 PM

I just purchased a great CD from Starbucks called "Night on the Delta: Acoustic Blues"

Whoever picked the artists really knows her/his stuff. Here are some of the musicians: Son House, Bukka White, Robert Johnson, Memphis Minnie, Leadbelly, Ligtnin' Hopkins, Skip James, Big Joe Williams, Mississippi John Hurt, Mance Lipscomb, Chris Whitley, Peter Kern, Taj Mahal, Captain Luke, Kelly Joe Phelps, Preston Pulp and Guitar Gabriel.

304. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 8:05:48 PM

Have Taj Majal's Dancing the Blues. Never thought it was one of his best, but when I'm in the mood it is quite good. Think I'll add it to the mix when I go back out to the shop, about now.

305. IdiotWind - 9/14/1999 8:10:27 PM

The music on this CD is so powerful and true that it's no wonder why the British blues musicians repackaged it, and made millions.

Taj Mahal contribution to the CD is "Spike Driver Blues."

306. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 9:03:38 PM

I like railroad songs.

307. JJBiener - 9/14/1999 9:28:03 PM

I-Wind - That sounds like a great CD. I have become a serious fan of traditional blues. Taj and Muddy Waters are among my favorites.

308. KurtMondaugen - 9/14/1999 9:39:49 PM

DAILY D.I.Y. PERFORMANCE SCORE:

Song of Uncertain Length:

"Performer balances bottle on own head and walks about singing or speaking until bottle falls."

E. Williams, 1960

309. theDiva - 9/14/1999 10:51:23 PM

mmmmm......tasty acoustic blues.....yum. Time for some Keb' Mo'. Nice CD, IW.

310. moonflower - 9/14/1999 11:22:37 PM

Does anyone here have some guilty pleasures, people whose music is routinely made fun of but you like anyway? I'm nuts about Claudine Longet. Anyone top that?

311. Uzmakk - 9/14/1999 11:33:24 PM

Hurricane Smith.

312. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 1:42:45 AM

Pelle:

You know, I think we should take another step back into yesteryear. Forget all of the fancy stuff, the box, the bone clasps, the scent. Forget even the DeLuxe Edition(for now). I think we should concentrate on the printing and the layout and issue the Haystack, Haysweep in sections. i.e. in signatures ready to be bound, contained in an envelope. This is the way books were issued in the old days and a subscriber would examine his "book", bought on prospectus, and decide whether it was worthy of being bound.

In the early stages, Pelle, it will be a complete paper product from prospectus to issue, and we shall work on making this most essential and most economical baby step a very fine and high quality baby step. This way you could offer a "product" (don't you just hate living in modern times?) that people could genuinely afford. From this very high quality, but affordable, beginning we will begin. What do you think?

313. pellenilsson - 9/15/1999 8:24:10 AM

uzmakk

I am shocked, yes shocked by your #312. Are you seriously suggesting that we should abandon all the work we have done, all the thoughts we have thought? And what about our suscriber, cmboyce, a bibliophile of fine, discerning taste? Do you think he will be happy to receive a few scraps of paper in a brown envelope?

And, uzmakk, I would have liked to keep this as a pleasent surprise, but I have received several discreet enquiries from people who don't want their desires to be on public record.

Your suggestion almost make forego posting my latest assesment of our standing which I composed in my closet yesterday. But I feel it is my duty to the Project to do so.

We are nearly there. This will be the most prestigious upmarket book of the year. It will be bought by the pretentious noveaux-riche peasants-at-heart, as well as by scholars and others with a genuine interest in the subject at hand.

The beautiful design, the exquisite materials, the flawless craftsmanship, the arcane, yet interesting subject, interspersed with folklore trivia, written in terse, elegant prose, the richness of the illustrations of technical detail and design, and of life in the fields with subtle hints at innocent, youthful sexual vigour, all these things, uzmakk, will come together to make our book the centre-piece of the display table in many a well-off home.

Concerning the 'hints' I will try to find a picture with an interesting juxtaposition of woman and stallion. Nothing vulgar of course, just the suggestive interplay between raw brutal power and virgin innocence (maybe with the horse on its hindlegs).

314. pellenilsson - 9/15/1999 8:24:49 AM

Now to my last and final idea before we move on. I think we should take the Disney approach. Spin-offs! What I have in mind is that we use your model as a template for a battery-powered, radio-controlled haysweep complete with driver and horse. There are companies in Taiwan specialising in such stuff.

I think we should try to engage PincherMartin in this side of the business. He has contacts in Taiwan. Also, I have the impression that he is not short of funds, so he could very well be intersted in investing in such a promising venture.

The remote control box would allow the user to control the horse, the handle and the lever. Lack of coordination and timing would lead to the disaster I have described earlier. Needless to say, my description of the critical moment will be written in breathless, gripping, unputdownable prose leaving the reading gasping with relief when the hay is finally deposited. I'm thinking of writing it in the voice of a youth who has been entrusted with the haysweep for the first time. Perhaps a fictitious diary entry where he describes this momentous growing-up experience in simple, yet moving language from which I can 'reconstruct' his emotions at the time.

The model will be delivered with a kit for erecting the haystack and a supply of artificial hay.

I believe most of the buyers will be middle-aged men.

315. KurtMondaugen - 9/15/1999 9:06:06 AM

Nice Calvin Tomkins (he of the estimable Duchamp bio) essay on Damien Hirst in the current New Yorker. Nothing new to those familiar with Hirst's own "I Want to Spend the Rest of My Life Everywhere, With Everyone, One to One, Always, Forever, Now", but a well done piece exposing both his shit and his genius with equal lighting. My only objection with the article is that the consistently fascinating Rachel Whiteread, who is quoted extensively throughout the piece, doesn't get the same adulatory attention.

316. pellenilsson - 9/15/1999 12:22:33 PM

uzmakk

Almost four hours later and I am still in a state of shock and disbelief. But I do realise that it is you who are calling the shots on this issue.

But if you want to go that road why not go a step further? Send the customer a wad of fine blank paper. We'll set up a website with the text and pics, and a suitable font for down-loading, and the customer can print the book on the nearest laser printer.

In this way the customer, in a way, produces his own product which I think will fit your new 'philosphy'.

317. pellenilsson - 9/15/1999 12:28:07 PM

A note. I will be out of the office for the rest of the day. With trepidation it will be that I tomorrow morning onturn the computer.

(You see: my English is going too)

318. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 1:33:43 PM

Fine, fine, fine, Pelle. I had no idea that the noveaux riche were beginning to queue up. But I feel I must explain myself. I am concerned with the considerable amount of capital it is going to take to get the entire Project off the ground. Perhaps I can best explain my thinking with an analogy, a metaphor, or whatever the hell it is.
As I understand it, the heart of the project lies in the concentric shaft mechanism of our particular haysweep, a mechanical wonder that was way ahead of its time and which still may hold untapped possibilites given the newer lighter materials available today and the tenets of control science. This mechanism is the genesis of all else, of the entire project, because the farmboys and maidens who operated and worked around this special haysweep were special farmboys and maidens.. They have a nostalgia which is very similar to , what shall we call it, "common nostalgia", yet different in a very significant way.

Now, likewise, with the book. It is the essense of the book which is fascinating and from which all else flows. And I will absolutely admit that in the high end book market this fact is often obsured: lay enough gold on an object and the foolish noveaux-richethink they have something of value. Like my father used to say and still does, the only way 99% of the population recognize quality is by brand name,i.e. they are told, told I say to youwhat is quality. They are not perceptive.

I think the haysweep stands as a wonder by itself, the shaft mechanism in particular, just as Haystack...Haysweep stands by itself as the essense, unadorned, the simple beauty from which all else will flow. It is this "essense" that we can get to subscribers quickly. Certain of them will recognize it as a work of great value and will treat it accordingly.

319. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 3:20:45 PM

re: the special nostalgia I speak of, it seems to me to be some kind of translocation in time. But I think that the Project will be most productive if we do not over produce, lay too much upon what is essential. I had no idea that you had such Baroque sensibilities, Pelle. Anyway, nothing we have discussed is under the bridge, set in stone....... yet.

320. theDiva - 9/15/1999 3:33:39 PM

you guys kill me.

321. cmboyce - 9/15/1999 4:33:42 PM

"... a few scraps of paper in a brown envelope?" Sounds very intriguing.

In terms of nostalgia, it would be like buying a first edition of The Compleat Angler; and you wouldn't have to price it as though it were just paper.

OTOH, there's no denying the appeal of fine leather.

NB, please, no scent. I have a hard enough time breathing when reading moldering paperbacks. Acid-free museum-quality materials, if you will.

Also, I have a spin-off idea of immense potentiality. T-shirts, baseball caps, leather jackets with leather appliques on the back, all depicting that (almost) ineffable "suggestive interplay between raw
brutal power and virgin innocence (maybe with the horse on its hindlegs)". The fucking fortune this idea will obviously bring in entitles me, I feel sure you will agree, to a 50% discount off the already reduced subscribers' price.

But I leave it in the hands of the artistes.

Just one suggestion: while "breathless, gripping, unputdownable prose" is all very well, and is, as we all know, a Pellean speciality, I think that the quality product of this kind is written in verse. Perhaps in some antique Swedish form, employing the fornyr*islag [for asterisk read thorn; if the thorn can be rendered in this forum, I'm sure I don't know how to do it] or the drottkvaet [in which "ae" is a ligature]; all the best skalds employ 'em. I'm sure Pelle must know some skalds--they're Swedish you know--at least out at the summer house.

Carry on!

322. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 5:31:07 PM

Check, Diva.

Pelle:
And by the way, I think you have blundered tangentially into a good idea with your clever little "blank wad" quip. This often happens to people with a measurable intelligence. You have mentioned appealling to the "intellectual snobbery and essential peasant nature" of the average Motie. Imagine this if you will--

An oblong book, bound in full black leather, 11 1/2inches(300cm) from spine to fore edge and 8 1/2 inches(21.5cm) from top edge to bottom edge, and 1 inch(2.5cm) thick. On the left side, close to the spine are two force fed, foi gras-fatted fs very similar to those you see here, but fatted, you know? And large-- an inch short of the top and bottom of the book. The second one is noticably smaller, but still large. They share a common cross piece, that little crossy part of the f which extends nearly the length of the book. And written upon the axis of this crosspiece are the words fine form each word corresponding to its own fatted f. One follows the crosspiece across the front of the board to a little square box inside which are the words with a good dose of pithy hypertext. I will explain more about this later. I really must get the day started, but it is raining, the garden is lush, and it is just the kind of day one feels justified in sitting at the computer and playing..

323. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 5:35:08 PM

Thank you, Boyce, your encouragement is greatly appreciated, and I can see that you have a good handle on the Project. Perhaps even better than Pellenilsson himself.

324. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 5:40:34 PM

My idea, Boyce, is that they can be returned for binding if the subscriber deems the book "worthy".

325. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 5:42:17 PM

Binding, especially in a fine limited edition, being a huge percentage of the costs.

326. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 5:43:16 PM

Binding, especially in a fine limited edition, being a huge percentage of the costs.

327. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 5:52:05 PM

i.e. I don't want the binding to limit the appeal and therefore the success Mr. PelleNilsson's book. Up to 25 subscribers can reserve the Deluxe First Edition in Publishers Binding, or they can wait, judge the quality of Pelle's book, and hope that the subscription list(for the Deluxe copies) is not yet full. These, ofcourse, are merely my ideas. I await the reply of Mr. PelleNilsson.

328. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 6:01:13 PM

BTW Pelle:

Letterpress is certainly not impossible.

329. theDiva - 9/15/1999 10:01:18 PM

Great day for jazz and blues birthdays:

King of the Blues, BB King

Vocalist Jon Hendricks

Guitarist Charlie Byrd

Violinist Joe Venuti

330. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 10:22:05 PM

Used to listen to Charlie Byrd at the King of France Tavern in Annapolis, MD.

331. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 10:24:23 PM

Diva:
I have baked four cakes, will light candles on all of them, and hang out in the mote cafe while listening to jazz this eve.

332. theDiva - 9/15/1999 10:42:05 PM

heeheeheehee

Save a peezzaeach for me, willya?

333. KuligintheHooligan - 9/15/1999 10:43:35 PM

I'm coming over here where it quieter!

Anybody like the rock group Extreme?

334. theDiva - 9/15/1999 10:45:45 PM

Charlie Byrd is still quite active in this area, Uz. I understand he gave a free concert in Reston not too long ago; and he has several long-standing dates a year at Blues Alley....friends of ours go every year on their wedding anniversary.

335. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 12:32:13 AM

So, Diva, you reside in the DC area. You may think that this is common knowledge, but I didn't know it 'til now.

Kuligan:
Am really out of the loop with regard to contemporary music, esp. rock. I am under the impression that it all sucks.

336. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 1:49:29 AM

Pelle, where the hell are you? We have work to do. Which is more important Telia in Mozambique or Project Haysweep? At any rate, I will flesh out #322 for you. I have a black book like the one described, except that mine is unadorned, plain black leather. I am using it as a journal. Since I have been Moting and before, when I was -------, I have had ideas in the way of decorating said black book, and relating it to my activities on the internet. What I described was one such design, the best I have come up with. Do you think that such a thing would have appeal to fellow moties?

Now, I am an intellectually prideful peasant, and I am quite sure that there are many moties who also fit this description, as you have so cleverly pointed out. What could possibly be more appealling to ones vanity and intellectual snobbery than a shrine to ones ones own scribblings?. Having said this, however,and assuming that we were to offer such a productt, can we not also say that we appeal to the motie's self-confidence rather than to his vanity and snobbery. For what has a peasant, after all, but his wits? And what would this book contain in its virgin form? Why, a wad of fine blank paper, just as you suggest. But, the book is also connected by design to the computer, more specifically, to the Mote. Anyhow, just killing time until you get back to me on Project Haysweep.

337. Blaise - 9/16/1999 1:51:43 AM

jj: I mentioned in the Poetry thread -- is it possible for you to install REAL audio so that we can hear your lyics with the music? I don't know how complicated or expensive it would be to do so, but if so, that would really be a great feature!

338. profemeritus - 9/16/1999 5:13:02 AM

The Bellevue Art Museum (BAM)is breaking ground next week for a new building right across from Bellevue Square. Bellevue is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, being adjacent to Redmond where Microsoft is located. For that reason, Bellevue is also an affluent community, but struggling to remain diversified in the best sense of that word.

We have chosen Steven Holl, originally from the University of Washington now living in New York, as the architect. He is known for designing the Helsinki Museum which just opened last spring. The Bellevue Museum will have three exhibition halls when it is completed, all devoted to contmeporary art. Hence it will not really compete with the Seattle Art Museum. BAM will focus on educating the public, especially children, in art appreciation. In fact, its logo is "See, Explore and Make Art."

I am fortunate in having been invited to the ground breaking and the champagne breakfast that accompanies the ground breaking. I hasten to add that my wife is a docent at the Museum.

339. pellenilsson - 9/16/1999 11:52:20 AM

Uzmakk

I always knew that your appreciation and understanding of the mystic and esoteric qualities of everything human are far superior to mine. Your #318 is profound , a revelation that has completely changed my view of the project, in particular:

I think the haysweep stands as a wonder by itself, the shaft mechanism in particular, just as Haystack...Haysweep stands by itself as the essense, unadorned, the simple beauty from which all else will
flow.

Yes. Yes, let us put aside our petty squabbles about the design of the book. Naturally, the bibliophile version shall be produced since there is an emerging demand. But otherwise let the essense flow through all possible channels at only moderate costs: self-printing from the Web or a finely printed loose leaf version. We may include a kit (extra cost) for self-binding. We could also think of an edition in a simpler binding, but I don't want you to sully neither mind, nor hand by such an undertaking. You have maybe an apprentice, not yet fully schooled in esoterica?

I see something completely new emerging here: The Order of the Mechanism, an order with several grades, from the neophytes anxiously grasping their self-printed sheets, up to the serene gestalts of the Princes and Keepers of the Mechanism. Yes, us, Uzmakk. Us!

And there will be symbols and signs of an elaborate nature which you will design, and which the members will carry when they meet in cyberspace to ponder the Mechanism. Shall it ever yield its secrets?

340. pellenilsson - 9/16/1999 12:07:30 PM

cmboyce

As you will understnad I am now emotionally drained. But I want to thank you most sincerely for your valuable suggestions.

Your proposal to use verse for the dramatic moment is intriguing. There are two problems. The Icelandic style is understated as when Gunnar på Lidarände, shot by an arrow pulls it out, sees the white fat that means that it has pierced the heart, looks at it and says: "Yes, I heard that this kind of tip is becoming popular."

The other problem is that I'm not very good at verse. We may have to turn to Hashke. Although he is now occupied by his Mandarin studies it can only be a matter of weeks before he has perfected his Swedish. He will then be able to help us in any kind of meter.

341. pellenilsson - 9/16/1999 1:11:10 PM

Uzmakk

I have calmed down now and note that I forgot to say anything about the "oblong book" you describe in #322. These words caught my specific interest:

I will explain more about this later.

342. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 4:15:56 PM

Pelle:
I did not comment upon it, but I agree with Boyce, that verse is the proper medium for a work like yours. Frankly, I think doing the whole thing in verse is a good idea. You are not going to get off light, Pelle. You say that your skill at verse is lacking. Nonsense. "The Order of the Mechanism" is pure poetry. I think that this line with the nascent meaning that you have already given it should be included in your poem. I think the concept should be foreshadowed, or, stated cursorily early, in close proximity to the reader's introduction to the "mechanism" of the haysweep. A spacial connection made early, if you will, to be juxtaposed with the temporal connection at the end of the work. You will note that it would seem that the word "juxtapostion" should be replaced by "balanced", but this is, in fact, part of a complex paradox that I think we are just beginning to explore in The Project. In addition, I am sure Hashke will be glad to assist you generously as things progress. Ofcourse, you can continue in prose if you like; I am merely making a suggestion.

343. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 4:16:41 PM

At any rate, I feel that my contribution to this stage of the project is drawing to a close. I shall keep the cover design of the deluxe copies on a slow burner in the back of my mind. There is little more I can do at this stage. To determine the printing method and costs I must have text, my friend. Do not, misunderstand me Pelle, I do not intend to broadcast this project all over the internet in all of the permutations that you have mentioned. I wish to produce a "complete" product at a reasonable price. We shall still ask for a tidy sum, but it will be a sum that many people will be able to afford. Publicity and advertising, we can do that anywhere and everywhere that you would like. But I see our project as:

Finely Printed Prospectus ------- Finely Printed Haysweep Treatise issued in sections

As I have said, the printing is not my specialty, but I know enough to act as a competent contractor. I don't know if we will be able to print a Swedish edition in this country, but I can look into that.

Frankly, this business was beginning to occupy to much of my time and interfere with work. I will be glad to get all of this out of my mind for a while. To understand what getting back to work entails, read my most recent post in Stories, Tall and Short.

You asked about apprentices. That is another story. Some other time.

344. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 4:21:32 PM

profemeritus:
I found your post very interesting.

345. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 4:29:13 PM

Pelle:

336 is supposed to flesh out 322, the oblong black book. Do you need to know more?

346. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 4:34:17 PM

My "work" post on Stories Tall and Short is #624. Angel-Five has posted a novella since last night.

347. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 4:36:47 PM

As you can see, from post #624Stories, getting the proper apprentices is more of a problem than it may at first seem.

348. pellenilsson - 9/16/1999 4:58:05 PM

Uzmakk

In my the state of revelation I overlooked #336. I understand and I think both the design and the idea is good.

I agree that as dusk is closing in on Maputo this phase of the Project is drawing to an end. We conducted this discussion in public in order to elicit comments and suggestions from the erudite participants in this thread. I am sure you join me in a heartfelt thank you for their contributions. And perhaps also for their patience.

Any further comments, suggestions or enquiries can be sent to haysweep@hotmail.com. In a few weeks we hope to have www.haysweep.com running where you will be able to get information about how the Project is proceeding, and, hopefully see some examples of how the design and production process.

So I will now have to have a serious go at the text. So many difficult decisions ....

349. pellenilsson - 9/16/1999 5:01:31 PM

uzmakk

I do understand that you have a few busy days ahead.

350. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 5:31:48 PM

Oh, quite so, Pelle. Thanks to all for their indulgence and their help. Lest it should seem that advice was taken lightly I have a rather lengthy post that I scribbled out to Alistair Conner re: his #220 which I never posted. It has been sitting infront of me for a week and now I cannot find it. I will post it by the end of the day if I can find it, and recreate it if I cannot. It had to do with the relationship between the prospectus and the cover design of the finished work(Deluxe Edition). Once again, thank you all.

351. theDiva - 9/16/1999 5:41:41 PM

You've both been quite diligent in your work on this project. Will there be an accompanying CD?

352. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 8:55:15 PM

Diva:
Boyce is our advisor in that department.

Biener: Got my call about agents and the music business this afternoon. The advice-- Change your mind.

353. Lucky - 9/16/1999 11:08:36 PM

Hello all -- have just been directed to this place, and have enjoyed the links and conversation. As a working blues musician, I was overjoyed to see coherent discussions on the birth of jazz as well as musical tributes to Lester Young and others. Thanks!

354. JJBiener - 9/16/1999 11:25:18 PM

Lucky - A fellow Bluesman! Welcome. I am the keyboard player in a blues band called Just Water. We play some traditional blues, some modern blues, and a bit of Rock and R&B. What are you into? What do you play? Where do you hang out?

355. Lucky - 9/16/1999 11:32:29 PM

Hi, JJ. I am a piano and organ player for a blues band as well as doing a solo piano act. We do the Southeast. I would link to a clip of my stuff, but it's a wavfile that is over 800K (I can't figure out how to put it in MP3 cause I'm a musician) and I don't want to subject anyone to a minute or two download. We do 6 to 10 shows a year as Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry's backup band.

356. Uzmakk - 9/16/1999 11:39:09 PM

Biener:

My friend is a wise guy and said that he had no real advice for you.

357. JudithAtHome - 9/16/1999 11:43:32 PM

JJ:

What is derivation of your bands name? "No ice, just water"? That is a much cooler way to drink, sans ice...tho not literally, of course.

358. JJBiener - 9/17/1999 12:06:35 AM

Lucky - Here is my band's site: Just Water. We are in Chuck Berry's home turf.

Are you guys full time, or do you have a day job?

359. JJBiener - 9/17/1999 12:09:09 AM

Judith - The name relates to the tendency of certain member of the band to consume significant quantities of alcohol. Doing so negatively affects their ability play music, so when we play, it's just water.

360. JJBiener - 9/17/1999 12:11:59 AM

Lucky, I've got to run, but I hope you will be around. I would like to compare notes, but I've got to get to band practice now. I hope to see you later.

361. Uzmakk - 9/17/1999 1:34:33 PM

#338Profemeritus:

"See, Expore and Make" I like that very much, Prof. I conceive Mote itself as Art and give thanks to the artists that are responsible. Connor, CalGal, Snodgrass, Biener and others that I most likely don't know about.

362. Uzmakk - 9/17/1999 3:44:23 PM

Wabbit is, ofcourse, a big mahof.

363. JudithAtHome - 9/17/1999 8:15:46 PM

Tonight we are attending Gallery Night. It's an event that has a 21 year history here in town and draws huge crowds. All the art galleries in town stay open late and set out munchies and drinks and people go from place to place enjoying the exhibits and hospitality.

We have a friend who is a bronze sculptor and his gallery is a big draw this year. Most of the art work in the galleries is modern, with many mediums represented. Local pubs join in and display art works and it gets pretty festive.

If anyone is in the Fort Worth area, come join the fun...it takes place on the West side of town, along West 7th and Camp Bowie Blvd.

365. God - 9/17/1999 9:54:05 PM

JJ

Just want to make it 100% absolutely crystal clear. I am NOT Son of God and would never come in here and make a post like that.

366. Son of god - 9/17/1999 9:57:45 PM

The sins of a father often get bestowed on the son.

The excesses of the sons can best be explained by the power usurped from the father.

367. Uzmakk - 9/18/1999 12:38:08 AM

Yes, Sog? Were you going to make a post?

368. Eccletier - 9/18/1999 3:56:23 AM

Hello. I am intrigued by your discussion and I wonder how I woud enquire about purchasing your volume abouth the haysweep.

Thank you.

Fanton Eccletier

369. ProfEmeritus - 9/18/1999 4:12:08 AM

Uzmakk

I very much like your positive attitude. It is important for one's happiness to see beauty wherever it exists. There is so much in nature that we miss and the artist is one who shows us where it is. It is one of our main objectives at the Bellevue Art Museum to instill the search for and appreciation of beauty in children - and of course in adults as well.

370. pellenilsson - 9/18/1999 9:57:48 AM

Eccletier

You will find the e-mail address in #348.

371. God - 9/18/1999 10:07:27 AM

pelle

Sorry for the comment yesterday about putting me to sleep. Actually, I found your post quite interesting and as you may have noticed, I stayed up another couple of hours. At any rate, it was a cheap shot, motivated by boredom and fatigue, not malice. I know you probably don't give two shits what I think, but I feel better apologizing nevertheless. (Unfortunately, I don't see my comment about Europeans as an ethnic slur, but I'm sorry that you took it that way.)

372. pellenilsson - 9/18/1999 10:16:02 AM

G

Thank you. And I also don't think your dig at Europeans was a slur. A cheap shot of mine. I guess we were all a bit on edge at that stage of things.

374. dusty - 9/18/1999 5:32:21 PM

Jonathan Ferguson

I find that difficult to believe, but this is clearly not the thread to discuss it. Playpen?

375. dusty - 9/18/1999 5:35:00 PM

PelleNilsson and Uzmakk

It appears that you are trying to take your discussion offline, but I was incommunicado while it occurred, so let me briefly express my interest in a special edition (hoping that cm picks up the fixed cost and I get the variable).

376. JudithAtHome - 9/18/1999 6:05:03 PM

Our tour of the art galleries last night was great fun; we saw some wonderfully talented people displaying their work and interacting with the public. One of the nicest aspects of this night is actually being able to meet the artists and tell them how much one appreciates their work.

One of my favorite shows was in a music gallery where one artists work was set up on four walls, beginning with his very first attempts and following his 20 years of growth around the entire room. In the center of the gallery was a jazz trio playing softly...and extremely well....and at the front entry, a table with "snacks". These were the best "snacks" of the night: chilled bits of lobster (not the fake stuff, either!), a round of baked Brie with honey and walnuts, and crudites. Champagne rounded out the feast. This was a posthumous exhibit of the artists work and before he passed away last year, he and his wife planned this show, down to the food and music.

I came away from the entire evening with a feeling of pride that I live in a city with so many talented people who are contributing what they can to make the world a beautiful place. After the rude fact we had to face this past week that our city also harbored ugliness beyond belief, it was refreshing to focus on the beauty.

377. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 8:18:17 AM

Can anyone link a WAV for Adeste Fideles? At least a blurb of it? I'm rereading The Crying of Lot 49 and am once again perplexed as to how I'm supposed to imagine a certain memorable scene.

378. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 8:27:33 AM

Um, NEVER MIND. (It's amazing that I didn't try to translate that yet. The tune is, of course, one I well know. Geesh.)

379. Uzmakk - 9/19/1999 2:05:53 PM

Angel-Five:

A Pynchon fan? Clearly.

380. PelleAndUzmakk - 9/19/1999 3:41:14 PM

Dusty

We are pleased to add you to the list of subscribers, which is growing by the day.

It was indeed a pity that you were outMoted for the discussion. I remember that, in your former incarnation, you showed a keen interest in the haystack and hayssweep issues when the first rough draft (dealing only with the technical issues) appeared some months ago.

381. TabouliJones - 9/20/1999 2:47:53 AM

Angel-Five,

Which scene in The Crying of Lot 49 are you trying to imagine?
I read Vineland a few weeks ago, and thought it was hilarious. Actually, I remember when all of the literary heavy hitters, such as Harold Bloom, dismissed it as a travesty. Thinking back,however, I think that Rushdie's favourable review was probably dead on: Vineland is a very funny, poignant political novel.

382. Dusty - 9/20/1999 1:21:00 PM

Diva (and other blues fans)

Did you catch the NPR segment on Blue heaven Studios?

I thought you might find it interesting. Make sure you click on the audio button to hear the segment.

383. Dusty - 9/20/1999 1:22:16 PM

PelleAndUzmakk


Yes, I'm sorry I wasn't here for the discussion. I did read and enjoy every word, though.

384. RickNelson - 9/20/1999 3:20:09 PM

Lauryn Hill deserves all her awards!!

"Miseducation" is a great circle of songs. It is wonderful to have young people motivated to share such beauty with the fans.

385. Dusty - 9/20/1999 3:57:26 PM

alistairCONNOR


Are you serious?

This place is so great, I almost hate to list potential improvements, for fear of leaving the wrong impression. But you asked:

I like to have 50 posts showing, especially when I have been away and I am catching up. After I catch up, I am interested in the last few posts, but too lazy to change to show fewer posts. However, clicking on a new thread always leaves me at the top of the page, when I am interested in seeing the bottom of the page. Would it make sense to have the VCR buttons bring me to the bottom of the page? That is, I load this page, then hit the go to end button. Could that bring me the last screen of posts? I think this is what I would like, but I am writing it as a question, so that someone can tell me if this creates other problems.

386. Dusty - 9/20/1999 3:59:53 PM

Or perhaps more simply, now that I note the Back to the Top link, perhaps a Go to Bottom of Page link at the top of the page?

387. Dusty - 9/20/1999 4:05:12 PM

Yikes

I posted those in the wrong thread.

Sorry Sorry Sorry

388. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 6:22:02 PM

Last night we attended a performance by the Bruce Wood Dance Company, a local troupe of 10 very talented people who created magic on the stage last night.

The first act was an encore performance of Rhapsody In Blue which had its premier in July of this year...once again, a feast for the senses. I'm certain Gershwin would approve. The dancing is a cross between classical ballet and modern dance with the best of both represented.

The second act was called Divine Heresy with the music of Jonathan Ellis, "The Prayer Cycle". In was an act in three parts, the first and third of which were done by the ensemble; entitled "I Dreamed of a Life" and "...Giving Comfort to God", these were moody pieces covering a range of expierence from childhood to death with love, happiness, betrayal, and grief all intermingled. It was beautifully done but to me, the most dynamic portion of the act was the second part, "...Of Heretics and Children..."

389. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 6:49:57 PM

(cont'.)

This was a solo dance by Bruce Wood, a man who has a body unlike your typical dancer. He is somewhat short and has the physique of a boxer. He was dramatically dressed in a full black skirt that reached the floor and rode low on his hips. He wore a white Noh mask and his torso was gloriously muscled but not overly so; he looked majestic. There was one spotlight from above and that was the only lighting...he danced facing the audience for half the piece, then contorted smoothly into a position with his back to the audience and the mask on the back of his head. The second half of the piece was danced with his back to the audience and his face was never shown. He dances with a strength that is amazing and yet he is graceful and dramatic...his body looks as though it were a Greek statue come to life. There was once a dancer with the American ballet called Edward Villella who was a boxer before becoming a dancer and he had this look of absolute strength, too. Last night, Bruce Wood was awe inspiring and that is not hyperbole.

The third act was called Spontaneous Combustion and was a send up of the 60s hippy culture, with War, Age of Aquarius, and For What It's Worth highlighted...it was a romp and achieved its purpose: always leave the audience wanting more!

390. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 6:54:03 PM

Please forgive the redundancy of using "last night" to start and end the opening sentence of this review...did I mention it was performed last night ?

391. Blue Eyes - 9/21/1999 12:53:02 AM

Judith at Home, I'm sure you would have enjoyed our groundbreaking ceremony for the Bellevue Art Museum this morning. Our architect is Steven Holl (his latest international work is the Art Museum in Helsinki, Finland). Steven Holl is a local boy made good and he came back here to design our gem of a building. It's going to be the first museum of it's kind. Our motto is See, Explore and Make Art. We will have artists in residence and classrooms so that visitors can try their hand at the new media they see. We'll have three exhibition halls and no collection. Even now our emphasis is on art education, particularly in contemporary art. You should come out and try the art scene in our Pacific Northwest. I enjoy your posts very much.

392. Blue Eyes - 9/21/1999 12:53:06 AM

Judith at Home, I'm sure you would have enjoyed our groundbreaking ceremony for the Bellevue Art Museum this morning. Our architect is Steven Holl (his latest international work is the Art Museum in Helsinki, Finland). Steven Holl is a local boy made good and he came back here to design our gem of a building. It's going to be the first museum of it's kind. Our motto is See, Explore and Make Art. We will have artists in residence and classrooms so that visitors can try their hand at the new media they see. We'll have three exhibition halls and no collection. Even now our emphasis is on art education, particularly in contemporary art. You should come out and try the art scene in our Pacific Northwest. I enjoy your posts very much.

393. JudithAtHome - 9/21/1999 1:18:10 AM

Blue Eyes:

We have good friends who live in Seattle and may come to the Great Northwest someday. Your museum sounds wonderful...that's what art should be about, learning and going forward.

We have 3 superb museums here in Fort Worth: The Kimbell, the Modern, and the Amon Carter Museum of Western Art. Our community also supports hundreds of local artists and and individual art galleries. Our downtown area is going through a renaissance of sorts and is very culturally diverse; you should drop in here for some Texas hospitality!

394. Uzmakk - 9/21/1999 3:33:42 AM

Blue Eyes:
Are you related to Profemeritus? Wife, perhaps?

Judith:
I read your description of the dance carefully and can imagine it was a very memorable experience. Even I will remember it for a short while from your description.

395. Uzmakk - 9/21/1999 4:11:56 AM

This post was written as a response to alistairconnor's #220. I am unable to go back and read the post as the computer is working like molassas this eve, so I will go from my scribblings and hope that they match up. I guess I may add a thing or two also. Anyway.....
Pelle did not haved a subscriber list for his Mithra book, and as he said, it had a rather grotesque cover. Actually, disturbingly pornographic in a subliminal way. Our limited edition does not actually need a cover design to drive sales, our cover should give subscribers as much pleasure as possbile, but its purpose is not manipulation, to drive sales. They will already have purchased the book when they see the cover. I agree with you, Conner, I prefer the Chatterleyesque to the Rockwellesque cover, but not as a means of driving sales. At any rate, I will do a prototype cover, and the prototype and any planned improvements there upon will be described in the prospectus. This prospectus can be as detailed or as general as we deem nescessary. I think that this will be part of the excitement for subscribers: to see how well the actual object matches their expectations derived from the written prospectus.

396. cartmhan - 9/21/1999 4:39:15 PM

Heard the news...Diana Ross arrested in Europe while boarding a plane. I will have to find out the news on this one. I wonder if she was trying to do another Connie Francis.

397. JonesAtLaw - 9/21/1999 4:51:20 PM

Judithathome-Wonderful post. Your enthusiasm for the arts is infectious. I agree with Uzmak- Your words and my imagination allowed me to share briefly in your experience. A great way to start the work day. Thanks!

398. theDiva - 9/21/1999 4:56:56 PM

I heard that she resisted arrest following her refusal flight attendant's request that she check her wigs and Lee Press-on Nails....something about excessive weight.

399. theDiva - 9/21/1999 4:57:12 PM

not Judith.....Diana Ross.

400. JudithAtHome - 9/21/1999 5:06:47 PM

Thanks for that clarification, Diva...I grow my own! (Nails and hair, that is...)

I'm glad that all who mentioned my post enjoyed it...I wish you could enjoy the actual performance! If they ever come to your town, rush to the box office, post haste. There has been talk of a tour...these people love to dance and it shows.

401. theDiva - 9/21/1999 5:16:45 PM

Judith

They were, indeed, wonderful posts.

402. Cellar Door - 9/21/1999 5:19:31 PM

She probably threw a fit because the flight attendant didn't call her Miss Ross and deigned to look her in the eye.

403. theDiva - 9/21/1999 5:20:02 PM

Diana ought to Stop. In the name of Love.

404. JonesAtLaw - 9/21/1999 5:30:12 PM

When I was in college, "Miss Ross" appeared at the University. I was Vice President of the student programming organization and was part of event security. I guarded a changing area for "Miss Ross." One of her staff walked through the protected area, and her road manager came over to yell at me for allowing him in the area. I told him that he shouldn't issue "all areas" passes to people he didn't want in "all areas" backstage. He was shocked that some snot-nosed kid wouldn't immediately kotow to him. I have never seen a more terrified group of flunkies and boors in my life as her entourage. If they ever need to cast a wicked queen for a broadway version of Snow White, I've got their gal....

405. theDiva - 9/21/1999 5:33:02 PM

Pretty amazing stuff, seeing as how the woman once broke both legs trying to carry a tune across the street.

406. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:13:53 PM

Diva,

Lordy, you will never forgive her for having the audacity to play Billie in a movie will you?

407. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:14:37 PM

Never. The bitch can't act either. Never could.

408. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:21:39 PM

heeheehee

409. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:23:06 PM

Judith,

Here's another "me too" post for you. I like the trend in this thread. Several people have posted descriptions of arts events they have attended and I've enjoyed reading all of them.

410. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:25:06 PM

Riv

Today I acquired Lady in Satin on e-bay for $3.25 plus shipping. Oh, and a Stephane Grappelli/Django Reinhardt recording for $4.00.

411. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:28:57 PM

And incidentally, Riv, tomorrow is Trane's birthday. I expect the date to be observed accordingly.

412. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:30:08 PM

Diva,


wimper... Those sound great. Tell me more.

Live at the Village Vanguard didn't come again!!!!! I think Joshua Redman is toying with me. Best of Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis did come though. It is wonderful.

413. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:30:50 PM

Diva,

Duke and Miles are on hand to do just that.

414. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:33:13 PM

I wish Joshua Redman would toy with me.

415. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:34:31 PM

I figured as much.

Maybe you can lay down under his sax.

416. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:37:45 PM

hoo boy. I better go lay down somewhere for a minute.

417. JJBiener - 9/21/1999 6:42:34 PM

Hi Riv, Hi Diva. My wife and I decided for our anniversary this year we are going to make a pilgrimage to Beale street in Memphis. We have reservations at a hotel right off of Beale, and we plan on hitting the blues clubs with a vengeance.

"Walking in Memphis. . ."

418. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:46:12 PM

Cool JJ. And you will be able to sample BBQ that is closer to the real thing than the crap you normally find here.

419. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:46:51 PM

Okay, I'm better now.

Lady in Satin was Billie's last recording. Though there are string arrangements on this CD, I want to add it to my collection for purposes of comparison. Though the technical quality of her voice, which was never especially strong to begin with, had deteriorated by this point, her matchless phrasing and emotional depth were still intact.

I'm eager to hear this one, and the Reinhardt/Grappelli Souvenirs as well. Did I happen to bring the Oscar Peterson/Grappelli recording with me when we visited?

These two French-born musicians can swing like nobody's bidness. Django seamlessly fused Gypsy rhythms and sensibility with jazz to create something fresh and unique. And Grappelli (as someone once said about another jazz violinist, Ray Nance) swings so hard it makes you want to kick your mama.

420. theDiva - 9/21/1999 6:47:44 PM

Dang, JJ, that sounds great. Sweetie and I want to take his parents there someday. You going to BB's?

421. Rivendell - 9/21/1999 6:54:16 PM

Diva,

swings so hard it makes you want to kick your mama.

I will remember that phrase.

I don't remember the Peterson/Grappelli CD and I pretty much scoured the collection you brought. Reinhardt/Grappelli sounds great though. I'll have to keep my eye out for those names.

Oscar Peterson is the pianist on the Lockjaw Davis CD I got. He plays on the cuts Angel Eyes, Telegraph, Land of Dreams and Blue Lou.

422. Dusty - 9/21/1999 6:55:48 PM

So are we doing What are you listening to or what do you hate or both?

• Pictures at An Exhibition - Moussorgsky
  
• One less egg to fry
  

423. JJBiener - 9/21/1999 6:56:03 PM

Riv - Can you get BBQ in St. Louis?

Div - Of course. BB's will be our first stop. Drop the bags at the hotel and straight to BB's.

424. Dusty - 9/21/1999 6:57:29 PM

Wait, that's not the name of it is it?

One less bell to answer?

425. JJBiener - 9/21/1999 6:58:00 PM

Riv - I am a serious Oscar Peterson fan. He shows that it is possible to have stubby fingers (like me) and still play piano with the very best.

426. Dusty - 9/21/1999 6:59:33 PM

oops, wrong thread

427. theDiva - 9/21/1999 7:07:07 PM

I have a pal who's a jazz pianist. He was gigging at one of those huge suburban hotels one evening, and happened to notice three African-American gentlemen sitting at a table nearby. He thought he recognized one slightly...and realized, mid-number, that it was Oscar Peterson.

He said, and I quote 'My hands turned to cement.'

In any case, at the break he went over, sat with them for a bit, and had quite the lively conversation. Apparently Peterson and the others were gigging at Wolf Trap that weekend and staying in the hotel.

428. Dusty - 9/21/1999 7:09:41 PM

Hey, I just listened to a radio program (probably NPR) discussing Peterson. They told the story of his first "gig" in the States.

429. JJBiener - 9/21/1999 7:10:42 PM

Diva - I think my fingers would have fallen off altogether. I would have only been slightly more impressed if God Himself were sitting at the table.

430. IdiotWind - 9/21/1999 7:41:59 PM

Has anyone heard the music of Olu Dara here? He does a song called "Your Lips" which is wonderful. It's not reggae music, but close. He might be Africian.

I have it on another Starbucks-collection CD I bought called "Patio Mixer: Songs for Summer Shindigs" I went back to get a second copy about a week after I got my first, and it was sold out.

431. theDiva - 9/21/1999 7:47:40 PM

Olu Dara is one hell of a musician. He's on the KC '34 cds and he can blow.

432. IdiotWind - 9/21/1999 7:49:25 PM

Thanks for the info, la diva. He sings on this song. Where is he from?

433. theDiva - 9/21/1999 7:50:14 PM

You're welcome.....I'm not sure, but I can check it out and get back to you tomorrow. All my source material is at home.

434. IdiotWind - 9/21/1999 7:54:16 PM

You don't have to do that for me but if it gives you a reason to listen to some of his music, then why not?

435. theDiva - 9/21/1999 8:28:42 PM

IW

My curiosity has been piqued.

From the All Music Guide (Scott Yanow, specifically):

Olu Dara threw the jazz world a curve in 1998 when, in his long overdue recording debut as a leader, he not only played cornet but appeared as a guitarist and singer performing country blues and African-influenced folk music! Dara was never too predictable. He grew up in Natchez, Mississippi and was performing trumpet locally from the age of seven. After serving in the Navy, he relocated to New York in 1963 but mostly stayed outside of music until 1972. Dara (who changed his name in 1969), since his return to music, has mostly been associated with the avant-garde (he was involved in the 1970's loft scene) although his ability at using wa-wa mutes and his knowledge of earlier styles has allowed him to look both forward and backwards musically, sometimes simultaneously. Through the years Dara has led his own bands and performed with many artists including Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers (briefly), Sam Rivers, Oliver Lake, Hamiet Bluiett, Henry Threadgill, James Newton, Don Pullen, James Blood Ulmer and most notably David Murray among many others. Of his own bands, Dara has led the seven-piece Okra Orchestra and the four-piece Natchezsippi Dance Band. He has also written extensively for theatre and he appeared in the 1996 film Kansas City.

436. cartmhan - 9/21/1999 8:49:44 PM

The passengers who were on the flight with Diana Ross oughta make tshirts that say "I Made It Through The Wigs".

437. Dusty - 9/21/1999 8:55:12 PM

Oscar Peterson

438. IdiotWind - 9/21/1999 8:59:31 PM

Thank you for the assistance, la diva. Now go listen to Olu Dara's "Your Lips." It will make you smile.

439. theDiva - 9/21/1999 9:06:27 PM

My pleasure.

440. Dusty - 9/22/1999 2:10:18 PM

Happy Birthday Ray Charles !!!!!


Ray Charles site

441. theDiva - 9/22/1999 5:51:39 PM

Speaking of birthdays:



John Coltrane.

442. theDiva - 9/22/1999 6:00:18 PM

Nat Hentoff, my favorite and probably the finest jazz writer around today, had this to say about Trane on the original liner notes for Giant Steps:

He was born in Hamlet, North Carolina in 1926. His father played several instruments, and interested his son in music. At 15, John learned the E-flat alto horna nd clarinet, and in high school, he switched to tenor. He studied in Philadelphia at the Granoff Studios and the Ornstein School of Music, became a professional at 19, and played in a Navy band based in Hawaii from 1945-46. From 1947-49, he worked with Joe Webb (Big Maybelle was in the same entourage), King Kolax, Eddie 'Cleanhead' Vinson, and Howard McGhee. Charlie Parker had become a dominant influence on his playing.

He was on alto with the Dizzy Gillespie band in 1949, and after Dizzy disbanded, John returned to Philadelphia...From 1952-53 he was with Earl Bostic, and then played with Johnny Hodges, Jimmy Smith and Bud Powell. He first joined Miles Davis from 1955-56....After (that), there was a period in 1957 with Thelonious Monk that Coltrane found unusually challenging.

"I always had to be alert with Monk," he once said, "because if you didn't keep aware all the time of what was going on, you'd suddenly feel as if you'd stepped into an empty elevator shaft."

Coltrane worked briefly with Red Garland, then rejoined Miles.

(more)

443. theDiva - 9/22/1999 6:19:28 PM

(For those of you who are wondering, this second go-around with Miles was when Kind of Blue was recorded. Trane worked both with Miles and on his own until his death in 1966.)

All musicians worth hearing during, and beyond, their time keep growing as their music deepens its hold on the listener. But John Coltrane committed his very existence to continually searching for more possibilities in his music - and therefore, in himself. After all, he once told (Hentoff), "the music is the whole question of life itself."

At home, John would practice for hours, sometimes silently - just running his fingers over the keys. He'd pick up new instruments and meditate and listen to recordings of Indian music and the sounds and rhythms of South African pygmies.

A quiet man, except when he played, he would talk softly about his reason for being. "I'm not sure of what I'm looking for," he said to (Hentoff), "except that it'll be something that hasn't been played before. I don't know what it is. I know I'll have that feeling when I get it." And when he got it, audiences would sometimes shout because of the release of feelings in themselves.

One afternoon he even told (Hentoff), "I wish I could walk up to my music as if for the first time, as if I had never heard it before. Being so inescapably part of it, I'll never know what the listener gets, what the listener feels, and that's too bad."

This listener got a lot in hearing Coltrane, over many nights, with Miles Davis. When we first talked about Coltrane, Miles was somewhat exasperated over the length of John's solos. After a particularly elongated solo, Miles, as he recalled, walked up to John and said, "Why did you go on so long?"

"It took that long to get it all in," said Coltrane. Miles eventually nodded in agreement with Coltrane's logic.
While he was with Miles, Coltrane was tagged with the

444. theDiva - 9/22/1999 6:30:04 PM

While he was with Miles, Coltrane was tagged with the phrase 'sheets of sound'; multinote hailstorms of dense textures that sound like a simultaneous series of waterfalls. Although he was creating a new jazz language, Coltrane was always conscious of his roots in the music.

He was a kind, gentle, and gracious man. (Hentoff) often (would) interview him for the notes to his albums. Innvariably, he would say at first, "I'd really rather not talk about my music. If the music doesn't speak for itself, no words can help it."

And then, invariably, (Hentoff) would say "John, I have this gig and the notes won't mean much without you saying how the music came together."

"OK," John would say, and he'd give whatever time (Hentoff) wanted.

Hentoff wrote "The last time I heard him in a club, the music seemed as if it would never stop, and I never wanted it to."

Listen to Coltrane, gang, and it never has to.

445. glendajean - 9/22/1999 6:33:07 PM

Diva -- I wish you could play his version of A Few of My Favorite Things for us.

446. theDiva - 9/22/1999 6:35:02 PM

I wish I could play his recording of Naima for you. A gorgeous, gorgeous piece, written for and named after his wife.

447. ChristinO - 9/22/1999 7:50:37 PM

I have now reached the pinnacle of star encounters here in LAlaland.

After work yesterday at my favorite coffee hang-out I carried my Chai out onto the terrace.

Looking up I saw an older gentleman of medium height in a big white cowboy hat---woven not felt.

double take

I caught his somewhat weary looking pale blue eyes and ducked my head with a little smile then tried to carry on with my business and not stare at him. Not strain to catch the sound of his voice. Not loose all sense of decorum and rush over to prostrate myself on the cobbles at his feet.

He stood there talking quietly to a woman companion for about five minutes. They appeared to be surveying the patio for something. They finished and left by the back gate.

The only other patron on the patio immediately picked up her cell phone. "Honey," she said as the other end picked up, "I just saw Bob Dylan."

448. Uzmakk - 9/23/1999 1:33:37 AM

Diva, please add my wife's birthday, Sept 22, to the birthday list, and save my marriage. Thank you.

449. CalGal - 9/23/1999 1:36:52 AM

Christin,

Great story. Beautifully delivered.

450. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 2:53:58 AM

Christin:

Did he have on a woven straw hat? Because wearing a straw hat after Labor Day can get you shot in Texas.

451. RustlerPike - 9/23/1999 2:31:41 PM

Dusty:

Ray Charles appreciates the big font, but still has a hard time reading your message. He says thanks for trying though.

452. RustlerPike - 9/23/1999 2:47:27 PM

A great day in Harlem.

453. RustlerPike - 9/23/1999 2:48:57 PM

ChrisO:

Where the fuck is your story about Bob D.?

454. theDiva - 9/23/1999 3:15:38 PM

Uz, honey, I'll do what I can but I hope to God you've gotten her something nice and made a big fuss over her. Otherwise, nothing I do will save you.

455. DanDillon - 9/23/1999 3:30:16 PM

Simon Winchester, author of The Professor and the Madman among others, is hosting a discussion/signing this evening at a local church of all places. I'm very excited to hear him speak and benefit from the firsthand tales he's sure to tell. And, of course, I look forward to getting my 1st ed. copy signed. Has anyone seen/heard him already?

456. Rossi - 9/23/1999 4:24:47 PM

Rustler Pike:
Isn't that a picture of all famous jazz musicians?

457. theDiva - 9/23/1999 4:33:04 PM

Rossi

A Great Day In Harlem

And welcome to the Mote. Nice to see you.

458. Rossi - 9/23/1999 4:36:49 PM

Diva:
Why, thank you!
I've seen this picture recently on either Public TV or Encore or BET on Jazz channels - can't remember which.

459. theDiva - 9/23/1999 4:39:27 PM

Rossi

You're welcome. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd seen it on all three. It's fairly well-known among jazz fans; and, the documentary was broadcast over the summer on the PBS affiliate here in DC - so I assume it was broadcast elsewhere.

460. Cellar Door - 9/23/1999 4:40:07 PM

There are two versions of that group shot, BTW. I've got one of them framed on my living room wall.

Hey gang -- how's about that Rudy Giuliani, eh?

GACK!!!!

461. theDiva - 9/23/1999 4:42:50 PM

Cellar

I love that picture. Gracie has been after me to buy a copy and put it up in the living room. She especially loves the fact that Roy Eldridge is turning around to look at Diz....apparently Diz, in every photo taken of them together, did something to make Little Jazz laugh or turn his head. I love the sight of Basie on the curb with the kids.

462. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 5:04:39 PM

Rock'n'Roll is dead....this morning, I saw Santana on Good Morning America.

463. glendajean - 9/23/1999 5:08:11 PM

Black Magic Woman...

Good morning, Judith. I watched a little of Sting on the Today Show.

464. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 5:18:38 PM

GJ:

Good morning; hope you're having a cheery Friday! :-)

What is the world coming to when Santana and Sting are getting gigs on morning TV?

465. glendajean - 9/23/1999 5:19:32 PM

A mellow place, I gather, given the style of their music.

466. Rossi - 9/23/1999 5:24:29 PM

Yeah, Rudy's rockin'! All of the habits and methods of the Sicilian Mafia, only he's on OUR side!

I don't like much of "contemporary" visual art myself - a lot of it pretentious crap, as is the case with all other kinds of art. But to assume the mantle of the Arbiter of Public Decency Standards is nothing if not dictatorial. Rudy and his killler cop army gotta go!

467. theDiva - 9/23/1999 5:25:34 PM

What's the deal w/Giuliani? What have I missed?

468. theDiva - 9/23/1999 5:39:44 PM

Today is the anniversary of the birth of bop trumpeter Fats Navarro.

469. glendajean - 9/23/1999 5:44:52 PM

Diva, the Brooklyn Museum of Art has an exhibition of British artists that includes a painting of the Virgin Mary out of cow dung, a pig and shark's head in preserving liquid, among others.

The mayor is threatening to a) cut off city funds to the museum; b) kick them out of the building -- it is owned by NYC.

470. theDiva - 9/23/1999 5:46:00 PM

Glenda

Ah. I see. Thanks.

471. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 5:49:55 PM

Well, art is a subjective thing but sometimes, it just ain't art to me. Rudys solution seems a bit extreme but hasn't everyone looked at some piece of schlock and said, "How could anyone call that art, much less PAY for it?"

472. Ronski - 9/23/1999 6:06:27 PM

Rudy will lose on this one. And he doesn't care. He is doing it because he is going to go after the Conservative Party (NY third party) cross-endorsement rather than keep his current Liberal Party (other third party) cross-endorsement. The Conservatives love this stuff.

The solution is not to fund art publicly at all. That would be preferable to elected executives and legislative bodies determining what art is offensive and what art is not.

473. glendajean - 9/23/1999 6:09:44 PM

Ronski -- didn't the mayor make a strong commitment to use city arts funds to the big majors (like BMA)? His public reasoning was that the city benefitted from tourists coming in to see them.

According to the NY Times, this morning, the head honcho at the Metropolitan Museum is being quite silent about all of this. I think they're the biggest beneficiary of city arts funds.

474. 109109 - 9/23/1999 6:14:34 PM

Nothing to lose on this. This falls under the rubric of common sense gut application.

A position on certain issues has common sense gut appeal to all socioeconomic levels, while simultaneously offending a committed minority. Regardless, for the committed minority to make a case against the position, they must explain and explain and explain an often difficult position to articulate.

Examples:

The death penalty. Common sense gut says fry barbarians.

Art of dung splattering the Virgin Mary. Common sense gut says deplore.

Releasing FALN terrorists whose organization blew up NYPD cops. Common sense gut says denounce.

This is not to say that there are not arguments against the common sense gut. Only that they are harder to make, they must be skillfully articulated, and they generally are losers. Which is why Giuliani wins, no matter what.

475. CalGal - 9/23/1999 6:20:13 PM

Niner,

I am nearly sure you didn't want this here.

476. 109109 - 9/23/1999 6:21:19 PM

You would be wrong. Art spawns politics. But thanks for looking out for me.

477. glendajean - 9/23/1999 6:23:10 PM

It was elephant dung, not cow dung as I previously reported.

478. theDiva - 9/23/1999 6:24:12 PM

I suppose you can guess what my gut reaction to that would be.

479. JJBiener - 9/23/1999 6:25:21 PM

Glendajean - Oh, it was was elephant dung. That makes all the difference.


(g)

480. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 6:29:54 PM

Yes, that makes it a Republican issue! JOKE JOKE JOKE

481. 109109 - 9/23/1999 6:33:45 PM

At times, I have trouble elevating my artistic freedom quotient over my torch-wielding "Kill the Monster!" quotient.

482. theDiva - 9/23/1999 6:43:22 PM

Giuliani vs. the Brooklyn Museum

483. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 6:52:37 PM

Anybody know where this comes from?

"There is a tide in the affairs of men, which, taken at the flood, lead on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in
shallows and miseries."

484. 109109 - 9/23/1999 6:55:12 PM

Whereas "Hillary Clinton was always there for the arts," said SoHo art dealer Ronald Feldman, who served for five years on the National Council on the Arts. "She's not afraid."


We shall see.

485. CalGal - 9/23/1999 6:56:56 PM

Nos,

Julius Caesar, via Shakespeare, I b'lieve.

486. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 7:14:20 PM

Thanks, CalGal. That's what I thought. (Wasn't a quiz, I just wanted to place the quote.)

487. JudithAtHome - 9/24/1999 12:18:24 AM

We're going to see Grapes of Wrath tomorrow night. It should be interesting; they've taken the Steinbeck original and adapted it for the Hispanic Theatre Group. Supposed to be 36 performers in the cast. This theatre has a very large stage so it ought to be pretty effective. I'll let you know on Sunday or Monday how well Grapes of Wrath plays as a "Road to El Norté" piece.

488. Dusty - 9/24/1999 4:30:55 AM

Nostradamus
Troksky quotes Shakespeare

489. Seguine - 9/25/1999 7:42:31 PM

Cmboyce, calling cmboyce! Please contact me at thesunseye@hotmail.com .

Thanks.

490. Nostradamus - 9/25/1999 7:43:25 PM

Hi seguine, your suspension over? Bad girl. :)

491. Nostradamus - 9/25/1999 7:51:30 PM

Thanks Dusty, I found it, Act IV, Scene III.

492. ee - 9/26/1999 7:16:09 AM

I went to a Barry Mannilow concert last night. I am not a Barry Manilow fan but my brother was the opening act. I went in thinking"Ugh Barry Manilow" but I tell you the truth the guy is a great preformer and very likable. It makes me feel bad for ever disrespecting a guy like that. I'm not a fan of his music but I'll never knock a guy like that again.

493. JJBiener - 9/26/1999 4:24:24 PM

EE - You have to respect a guy who can get up on stage and perform every night whether you like what he is doing or not. My band played for a couple of hours at a picnic yesterday afternoon, and last night I could barely move. It is exhausting to perform like that. Have you ever seen the video of Manilow when he was Bette Midler's pianist in her bathhouse days?

494. PsychProf - 9/26/1999 5:01:41 PM

Sorry to all dunglovers, but I prefer Velasquez...let them(museumheads) keep the money...too bad that so much of contemporary art seems to merely offend...a minor artistic impact on the person.

495. T. Tallis - 9/27/1999 2:11:29 AM

In regards to the discussion over the Sensation show and its accompanying publicity/fallout, it's perhaps best to let the work in question speak for itself. I'm sure regular inhabitants here are already familiar with Hirst or the Chapmans, but it's the Olifi that is receiving the most negative attention.

It can be viewed here: http://www.oasinet.com/postmedia/art/ofili.htm

496. moonflower - 9/27/1999 5:00:31 AM

I wish more art did offend. And in fact it does, though not all of it gets into bigtime museums. But I wonder if this culture is now immune to being offended about anything. Where does that leave the artist?

497. pellenilsson - 9/27/1999 12:49:19 PM

Here is a Velázquez for you PsychProf.




The Count-Duke of Olivares on Horseback

498. PsychProf - 9/27/1999 1:04:34 PM

Pelle...what a wonderful morning vision...thanks...

499. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 6:30:43 PM

#496moonflower:
???????

500. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 6:32:03 PM

What an odd conception of art you seem to have, moonflower.

501. PsychProf - 9/27/1999 7:36:01 PM

How sad if the MAJOR thrust of art is to simply offend.

502. glendajean - 9/27/1999 7:38:25 PM

B'day brought me cds. All praise, after all to b'days.

I got Miles Davis, Kind of Blue (the new re-release), Ibrahim Ferrer, Buena Vista Social Club, and Rubén Gonzales(?), Cuban pianist.

Oh, and Ella Fitzgerald, from the Gershwin Song Book.

503. Ronski - 9/27/1999 7:41:51 PM

Both a count and a duke. Whatta guy!

504. JJBiener - 9/27/1999 9:09:40 PM

glendajean - Kind of Blue is one of my all time favorite CDs. I read an article several months ago about how a keyboardist should comp behind a soloist. The author said the best thing you could to improve your comping is to listen and imitate Bill Evans on Kind of Blue. He was right. I played that CD many times and analyzed what Evans was doing. It helped a lot. Of course it taught me a lot about soloing as well.

505. JJBiener - 9/27/1999 9:13:28 PM

Moonflower - I agree that an artist should be concerned about offending when following his/her muse, but it seems that you are saying something different. It seems you are saying that at some level if art does not offend, it has failed. Can you expand on this a bit. I am not sure if I agree or disagree at this point so I would like to clarify your position.

Thanks.

506. JJBiener - 9/27/1999 9:14:37 PM

Sorry - That should be ...I agree that an artist should NOT be concerned about offending when following his/her muse...

507. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:15:21 PM

Art should always have at least a cutting edge that many find offensive. Including sacriligous. Remember that the French Impresssionists were deemed vulgar, shocking, you name it, when their work first started getting out in the public (and the critics') view.

Giuliani appears to be nothing more than a common philistine when it comes to his arts' policies. Shame on him.

508. theDiva - 9/27/1999 9:20:23 PM

Before we get into this, I have one request:

by the term 'art', what is meant? Painting, sculpture, music, poetry, what?

509. theDiva - 9/27/1999 9:20:59 PM

One question, one question.

510. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:22:38 PM

All of the above, plus. Literature of course. Dance. Almost any discipline which involves an aesthetic.

511. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:25:55 PM

I suppose that it is only in the visual arts or literature (broadly defined), though, that you get into the realm of sacriligous. Although God knows much music has been condemned or even banned over the years as being on the wrong side of the politics then in vogue (as in Stalin's domain.)

512. JJBiener - 9/27/1999 9:26:04 PM

janjon - I understand what you are saying. What I am struggling with is this. Is it necessary for art to be offensive at least to some in order for it to be truly creative? How do you avoid artists who use this to claim creativity for their work when it is merely offensive. A case in point. Is Piss Christ truly creative, merely offensive or is it both? What criteria do you use to judge?

513. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:27:22 PM

I agree with moonflower, incidentally.

514. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 9:33:15 PM

I'm sick of artists (or those who call themselves such) foisting off garbage on the public and calling it art. Every week in our local paper, we have an "In The Galleries" column written by this woman who has never seen a piece of refuse she didn't love and have contorted, pretentious explainations for; things made of chickenwire and mud encrusted with torn shreds of nylon hosiery and labeled "Nexus of Death and Magical Toads" isn't art, I don't care how eloquently it is described.

515. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:33:40 PM

Oh I brook no nonsense with the clever boys and girls who use offensive solely or primarily as their hook to getting attention as artists. Creative intent is at best a very subjective area. If their results happen to be ART instead of just schlock (and remember ART or schlock depends on the eye of the beholder - think of Keenes), then hip hip hooray for the artists and for us.

I think that the best way to confront and minimize the impact of those artists who are simply using offense as a gimmick is to react without outrage or anything other than the "normal" interest and assessment as to the artistic quality of the art.

You mention Sorreno, for instance. I have seen several of his urine pieces where the image/sculpture is not religious in nature. Quite beautiful colors. Wonderful balance and esthetically very pleasing. Why should the fact that he occasionally has used a religious figure make any difference.

516. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:35:31 PM

Why shouldn't an artist use chicken wire and mud.

517. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 9:37:44 PM

No reason at all...but maybe they should label it what it is in some cases: recycling.

518. theDiva - 9/27/1999 9:39:05 PM

The materials aren't the point....it's what one does with them, no?

519. theDiva - 9/27/1999 9:39:36 PM

unless, of course, we're talking about anything which could contain pathogens....and then, the deal's off.

520. T. Tallis - 9/27/1999 9:40:18 PM

While Guiliani may well be a philistine, it seems that in this specific case he's playing more the role of mere opportunist. There's a Senate race coming up, after all, and he needs to publicize his platform as broadly and unambiguously as possible. Nothing like a little homespun facism to get the people stirred up (and on his side, such as the case might be). Still, odd then, that he's accusing a practicing Roman Catholic (as Ofili apparently is, if the claims made in his interview in todays NY Times are accurate) of "attacking and bashing" his own religion.

Piss Christ was moderatly pleasant to look at, and about as threatening as a canteloupe. Whether or not it offended anyone is, or at least should be, irrelevant.

521. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:40:49 PM

No. When they combine it with nylon shards, it may become art.

Actually, probably does become art to at least someone.

Since when does art have satisfy everybody or most people?

You say they foist these constructions on the public. You don't like, you walk out. Right?

522. T. Tallis - 9/27/1999 9:43:27 PM

In her message 514, JudithAtHome states that "things made of chickenwire and mud encrusted with torn shreds of nylon hosiery and labeled "Nexus of Death and Magical Toads" isn't art" regardless of how they're analyzed. This I believe to be incorrect. If the artist calls it art, be it chickenwire, urine, elephant dung or absolutely nothing at all, then it is art, like it or not.

523. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:44:22 PM

No. When they combine it with nylon shards, it may become art.

Actually, probably does become art to at least someone.

Since when does art have satisfy everybody or most people?

You say they foist these constructions on the public. You don't like, you walk out. Right?

524. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:45:44 PM

Well, pardon pardon me.

525. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 9:45:51 PM

Actually, I seldom walk in if I know it's going to be that sort of thing. I'm sure it appeals to some and that's fine with me; I suppose I should be grateful that the art citic writes so well...that way, I can enjoy her mastery of the language and still be warned to avoid the "art".

Yes, that's right, I am trashing something I've not seen. I guess I look on this as leaving more room for the people who want to see it.

526. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:50:23 PM

Well, without beating this horse dead, you probably would have missed out on the initial exhibitions of the French impressionists.

Can I assume that you don't cotton to much in the way of contemporary art?

527. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 9:52:42 PM

T.Tallis:

Welcome, by the way...

I'm curious; if an artist calls it art, it's art. So does that apply to a writer calling his work a novel even tho he can't sell a page? How about someone who considers himself to be a dancer when actually he can't dance calling himself a dancer? How about someone with a tin ear calling themselves a singer when they can't carry a tune?

528. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:55:15 PM

Van Gog sold diddlysquat while alive. Do you consider him an artist?

529. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:56:59 PM

Von GogH, of course. And, if your answer is that of course he is an artist, when did he become one. When he painted his unsaleable stuff or when it started selling?

530. janjon - 9/27/1999 9:57:33 PM

Oh shit. Van Gogh Van Gogh Van Gogh Van Gogh.

531. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 9:58:23 PM

janjon:

That's right, I'm no fan of contemporary art but there's plenty of other types to go around.

You are probably correct; I would have been reacting the same way at the turn of the century and might have missed Monet and the others. I would have probably scoffed at Erik Satie and called his music "noise". Fortunately, I was born late enough to avoid that. Maybe if I live long enough, I'll grow to appreciate current attitudes about art, who knows?

532. T. Tallis - 9/27/1999 9:58:42 PM

JudithAtHome

Thank you for the welcome. To answer your question, I suppose I would have to say yes. Bob Dylan and John Lennon, for example, are referred to as "singer - songwriters" without controversy even though their abilities extend only as far as the latter. Nijinsky was thought of as a fool in his time, and people have only just begun to come to terms with Merce Cunningham. One look at the best seller lists will tell you what people are willing to accept as literature. But these are subjective appraisals, anyway. If Bob Dylan wants to write "singer" in the occupation line on his tax forms, then there's not much say you or I have in the matter.

533. Kalithedest - 9/27/1999 9:59:21 PM

"Art should always have at least a cutting edge that many find offensive. Including sacriligous."

What nonsense. Art should not "always" anything. (Except, perhaps, art should "always" have an aesthetic component. Which puts much puerile "deconstruction" well out of the realm.)

According to your formulation we can summarily do away with Odilon Redon, Edward Vuillard, most outsider art, Matisse, the religious art of Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism, most of Dürer, quite a lot of Flemish art, Rembrandt, much of Velázquez, Corot, Puvis, various American realists... and so on.

The notion that art must be transgressive in order to qualify as something other than nose-picking is a modern conceit most commonly belched out with impressive certitude by people who rarely ever look at art but like to talk as if they do.

534. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 10:00:15 PM

janjon:

I've no idea when Van Gogh "became" an artist. I'm just glad he did.

535. Kalithedest - 9/27/1999 10:01:19 PM

"Is Piss Christ truly creative, merely offensive or is it both? What criteria do you use to judge?"

Have you ever seen it?

It's really very pretty.

536. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 10:02:37 PM

kalithedest:

Welcome to the Mote and to the Arts&Music thread in particular.

537. janjon - 9/27/1999 10:03:39 PM

Actually, when I said that Art should always have a cutting edge, I did not intend to leave the impression that I meant that ALLworks of art in any genre should have that type of bite. Therefore, since you read my comment to mean that (and I can see how you could), I would have to agree with you, ketc., that that would be rubbish.

Bring on Balthus, baby.

538. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 10:05:37 PM

Does the artist have to keep replacing the piss? And is it corrosive? I know several of Andy Warhols silk screens are breaking down due to his use of urine in producing them; wonder if the same fate will befall the christ?

539. Kalithedest - 9/27/1999 10:11:12 PM

"Piss Christ was moderatly pleasant to look at, and about as threatening as a canteloupe."

Quite so--unless the viewer is an evangelical Christian given to carrying a glow-in-the-dark crucifix in his automobile.

For some reason, Piss Christ has rarely been acknowledged to be an ironic critique of fundamentalism . But consider the elements:

1. Plastic Jesus;
2. Amber liquid (processed beer?);
3. Apparent heavenly glow, actually light filtered through urine.

This is a commentary in the spirit of Daumier; but it's as qualitatively important as an ad for sweaters or hot dogs.

540. JJBiener - 9/27/1999 10:12:53 PM

Kali - Welcome to Arts & Music. Yes I have seen Piss Christ. That is why I used it as my example. I find it an interesting piece on several levels. I know what criteria I use when judging a piece. I was curious what others use. Are you strictly visual in your analysis or do you use other things like cultural indicators and historical references as well?

541. janjon - 9/27/1999 10:14:01 PM

Had the title been AmberChrist I suspect very few people would have given a damn that one of the components of the piece was urine.

542. Kalithedest - 9/27/1999 10:14:45 PM

"Does the artist have to keep replacing the piss? And is it corrosive?"

Piss Christ is a large photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine.

543. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 10:21:48 PM

Oh, thanks...we seldom get these things out here in the sticks. I thought by the way everyone was describing the way the light falls, etc. that it was an actual jar full of stuff. So it may simply be a provocative title and not involve bodily fluids at all? Like those ads for delicious looking food which are simply photos of plastic bowls of lard resembling ice cream? Guess if someone entitled those "Lard Christ", it would stil be art.

544. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 10:23:21 PM

Okay, I see by my last post it is time for me to quit for the day....have a nice evening, all.

545. janjon - 9/27/1999 10:24:19 PM

On the other hand, those half cows in formaldehyde do have a disturbing tendency to sort of fall apart in unappealing ways.

546. Rivendell - 9/27/1999 10:31:29 PM

Being pretty is certainly an admirable quality in any art form. A steady diet of pretty, and nothing else, and the art becomes inconsequential. Challenging the thinking of the audience is also an admirable quality. Some people equate being challenging with being offensive. Their loss.

547. JJBiener - 9/27/1999 10:33:34 PM

Hey Riv! How are things on your side of the city?

548. Rivendell - 9/27/1999 10:34:28 PM

JJ,

Answer posted in the Cafe.

549. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 10:35:35 PM

#537janjon:
I'm glad you clarified your position. I was about to call you a chucklehead. As things now stand, the only bona fide chucklehead is moonflower with others merely dipping their toes into waters of chuckledom.

550. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 10:37:22 PM

And, ofcourse, a good number of excellent posts, but insults come so much easier than compliments.

551. janjon - 9/27/1999 10:51:08 PM

Thank you, Uzmakk. In the same vein, I found Rivendell's 546 to be a very concise and eloquent statement of what much of the recent discussion has been all about.

552. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/27/1999 10:55:52 PM

“Decadence was brought about by doing work too easily and being too lazy to do it well, by a surfeit of art and a love of the bizarre.“

[--Voltaire: The Princess of Babylon ]

553. theDiva - 9/27/1999 11:02:41 PM

right now I am listening to the most wonderful thing....Billie's July 2, 1935, recording of Miss Brown to You....from Lady Day's 25 Greatest Hits 1933-1944. My fourth go-round in a row.

554. Rivendell - 9/27/1999 11:15:25 PM

Diva,

Dug my copy of that out and am curious - while the number is certainly a wonderful thing, what do you hear in it that prompts you to listen to it four or more times in a row? Not that there is anything wrong with listening to it like that. I love Benny Goodman in the intro. But then I have a soft spot for the clarinet.

555. theDiva - 9/27/1999 11:19:42 PM

Riv

No, I meant I've listened to the entire CD four times in a row. I get like this with Billie's recordings. I hear something different each time, and so I just can't stop listening.

556. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 11:20:13 PM

re:546, Janjon:

But I would make the case that 90% of the artists that wish to challege the thinking of the public are inarticulate slobs with the most insipid and mundane ideas. Better that they should have fired off a memo on stick-it pad in order to challenge the cliched thinking and perception of the public. Being incapable of this, however, they have turned to "art " to express their incredible profundities.

557. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 11:21:21 PM

555Diva:
Have your hearing tested.

558. theDiva - 9/27/1999 11:21:46 PM

We're up to Swing, Brother, Swing. God, listen to that horn section.

559. theDiva - 9/27/1999 11:22:32 PM

Uz, I simply must initiate you into the Order of Billie. You won't be sorry, I promise.

560. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 11:24:09 PM

I am familiar with Billie, Diva.

561. theDiva - 9/27/1999 11:25:33 PM

Yes, yes, yes, but are you a member of the order? This is a key question.

562. Rivendell - 9/27/1999 11:32:38 PM

Uzmakk,

90%? I don't know how we would know for sure, so suffice to say I am not yet that cynical. Although certainly there is much that would be better served with a post-it note. And "challenging" still might not be the best word. At the very least, there is a place for good art that gives the audience pause. And gives them something to ponder in the pause.

563. theDiva - 9/27/1999 11:34:44 PM

and on that happy note....I will say good night.

564. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 11:42:14 PM

"night, Diva. And I am not a member of the order.

565. Uzmakk - 9/27/1999 11:51:03 PM

You know one way to give the audience pause, Riv? Make something that is very very pretty. Beautiful, perhaps. And you know what they would ponder in the pause? They would ponder the beauty of what they had just seen, and they would wonder that a man could make a thing of such beauty. Not much of that about these days thoough. Everything is very conceptual. Very deep. Ponderable first, beautiful second or not at all. Lots of stuff very much from the stick-it school.

566. T. Tallis - 9/27/1999 11:57:00 PM

Many conceptual works possess great beauty, in my opinion. Though I agree, this currently occurs with less frequency (there are, of course, exceptions however).

567. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/28/1999 12:20:16 AM

Why did the old Folly end now, and no later? Why did the modern Wisdom begin now, and no sooner? What were we the worse for the former Folly, what the better for the succeeding Wisdom? [—Rabelais]

568. JJBiener - 9/28/1999 12:27:39 AM

Uzmakk - I am a songwriter and composer. What I strive for in my music is what one writer called, the Ooh factor. It is that quality that causes a first time listener to go "Ooh!" when hearing a piece. It is a combination of surprise, interest, and appreciation in response to something that is original enough to be unexpected but not so unusual as to leave the listener without a frame of reference. As I said, it is a goal. I seldom acheive it.

569. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 12:31:39 AM

Sounds like a worthy goal to me, Biener. I met some of my favorite songs via the Ooh factor, and they remain favorites.

570. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 1:23:37 AM

These people seem to be in the right groove to communicate with both musicians and those who labor over Project Haysweep.

571. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 1:29:03 AM

Sorry folks. Don't even bother with those people.

572. Rivendell - 9/28/1999 1:53:34 AM

Uzmakk,

As I was driving home I was thinking about your comments and asked myself what I value most in art. My own comfortable frame of reference is theatre, but this could apply to any art form. What I value most is skill. I want to be dazzled, or enthralled, or at least made to stop long enough to be pleased that, as you say, such a thing could exist. Without a demonstration of skill or talent there is little to cause the audience to slow down.

Beyond that though, there is a place for art (and this is particularly true in theatre) to attempt to get the audience to alter a perspective, come to a deeper understanding, appreciate more, or find resonance in the artist's presentation of reality.

That sounds more ponderous than I mean it to be. But good plays usually cause me to leave the theatre with something to think about.

573. JJBiener - 9/28/1999 5:12:25 AM

Riv - I like your description. After taking an art appreciation class in college I came up with this definition for art and I still think it fits pretty well

Art is reality as seen through the lens of the artist's soul.

574. cmboyce - 9/28/1999 5:48:29 AM

Quite right, JJ. And this is why when people who trouble themselves to make art, whether well or not and whether in conformity to general (or particular) ideas as to what art is, it is art. And that one generation may repudiate a previous generations notion about what's what in art is no novel doctrine, nor particularly pertinent to the Brooklyn show.

Otoh, we should not forget that all the great art in history has rested at the top of a pile of lesser art. And when something like "Piss Christ" or whatever comes along, people do. The assumption is made that the Brooklyn believes the "Holy Virgin Mary" to be some kind of great. No. They just know it's in a famously eccentric collection in London (which has had pieces in it that many have thought great, though I don't know that this show has any of them), and it both benefits them to show notorious stuff like that, and it is very meet, right, and their bounden duty that they should do so, for that is how the generations get to see and make their judgments.

575. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 12:56:31 PM

Biener:
I sat down to comment on the 'ooh' factor, 'cause I've been thinking about it and think that there is quite a bit packed into it, and also quite a bit packed into your definition of art. I guess wrt the definition of art, much depends on the quality of the artist's soul and how much effort he is willing to give to his art. And, ofcourse, there is luck. I sincerely wish you the very best with your artistic endeavors. Pity that my link wouldn't come up. It was for some "graphic finishers" in the Fort Worth area. They used a musical metaphor on their site: the background was saxaphones, musical notes, and other musicalia. They described the "ooh factor", that special magic that makes an artistic creation........?special? , and, ofcourse, they claimed to be able to add as much of this special magic to one's projects as a graphic finisher can possibly add. I particularly liked your bit about not being too far off, giving the audience atleast one foot on familiar ground. If an artist exists in the stratosphere, part of his "job", the hardest part, is bringing the great unwashed along with him to view and appreciate his "art".

576. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 1:04:21 PM

Rivendell:
My taste in theatre and movies seems to be similar to yours. I really don't have much time for diversion. I am quite capable of amusing myself, so I like my movies to give me pause. I like the kind of movie and theatre which runs on the back of one's mind for a year or two, or the rest of one's life. Diversion is, ofcourse, a legitimate function......uh oh.....I can feel myself starting to get philosophical here so I had better stop.

577. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 1:06:00 PM

Quite so, Boyce.

578. moonflower - 9/28/1999 2:18:36 PM

I don't know if the artist's "soul" has much to do with it. Many people claim to be artists but the dedication to craft seems muted by comparison with this "self-exploration" of "reality." As for the recent museum flap, the artist of did the Madonna spattered with elephant dung has already succeeded. Whether it's shut down or not,
the "shock" had an effect. Shutting museums down is no different than shutting minds down.

579. PsychProf - 9/28/1999 2:34:36 PM

Just out of interest Moonflower, and others...what part of my soul/pyche is "explored" by seeing the madonna with excrement about her person...I am(probably)not offended or moved...I do not want the "art" removed by any politician...I will not go to see it...noone from the artistic community has come forward to suggest that anyone should think(in terms of "value") otherwise.

580. Ronski - 9/28/1999 2:41:31 PM

The mediation efforts in the Brooklyn Museum case appear to have failed. The Museum is suing the City, which is withholding the check due to the Museum on Friday. Rudy is getting enough publicity out of this to assure him the Conservative Party endorsement, if he wants it, which he does, is my guess.

581. PsychProf - 9/28/1999 2:46:47 PM

Lets up the bar here...let's have a piss MLKing...now there's art...explore that ...

582. Ronski - 9/28/1999 3:01:39 PM

Serrano was in my home in Brooklyn once. I can't remember if he used the bathroom.

He said that he had been very surprized by all the fuss over the P-X.

583. PsychProf - 9/28/1999 3:18:56 PM

As usual, I am too late...

584. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 3:29:26 PM

When I was in high school I recall a bunch of chaps holding a fellow down so that another fellow could piss on him. Piss is symbolic. Apparently Serrano is one of those stupid artists that I was talking about.

585. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 3:30:42 PM

This is not a comment on Serrano's art, but rather on Serrano's stupidity.

586. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 3:32:32 PM

That, PsychProf, is art. You have stretched the medium to its limit and have come up with a masterpiece.

587. theDiva - 9/28/1999 3:41:27 PM

Excellent quotes posted by the Wiz; I feel they need to be restated given the current topic:



“Decadence was brought about by doing work too easily and being too lazy to do it well, by a surfeit of art and a love of the bizarre.“

[--Voltaire: The Princess of Babylon ]

Why did the old Folly end now, and no later? Why did the modern Wisdom begin now, and no sooner? What were we the worse for the former Folly, what the better for the succeeding Wisdom? [—Rabelais]

588. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 3:49:01 PM

I saw a picture of the dung madonna in Newsweek yesterday. Didn't realize that she was Africanized. Interesting. Not offensive. Pretty mundane. Stupid? I wouldn't say so. Let the fellow make his art. But there is an artistic community that decides what is art and what is not, and it would seem that many of these people have their heads up their bums. The Newsweek piece also shows the publicity for the exhibition a yellow warning sign that one is about to experience the outrageous. Oh, how exciting!!! Open my mind!!! Did anyone read Tom Wolfe's The Painted Word ?

589. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 3:52:15 PM

Diva, absolutely, I meant to compliment the Wiz on those pertinent quotes.

590. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/28/1999 3:52:50 PM

591. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 3:53:48 PM

...exhibition, a yellow warning sign...

592. theDiva - 9/28/1999 3:56:56 PM

WRT art expanding one's horizons....this is a completely valid point. I have to question the notion that one must be offended in order to be provoked into thought. It seems peculiarly adolescent to me.

'Here, I'm going to do something really OUTRAGEOUS and they'll HAVE to pay attention.'

I believe the ability to uplift and enlighten, whilst creating aesthetically pleasing work, is the sign of a mature talent. To wit - Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Romare Bearden, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, I could go on but you get the idea.

593. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 4:01:53 PM

Diva:
Toni Morrison? I tried to listen to an abridged version of JAZZ on tape and found the language so convoluted that I couldn't finish it. And don't tell me its bloody poetry.

594. theDiva - 9/28/1999 4:13:29 PM

Uz

I can't comment on the tape; I only read the book.

Someone, earlier in the discussion, mentioned the reaction the public had to the French Impressionists back in their day - Here is a sample.

595. theDiva - 9/28/1999 4:14:22 PM

More

596. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/28/1999 4:23:39 PM

These murals were painted with vegetable dyed horse manure.

597. theDiva - 9/28/1999 4:29:49 PM

Gorgeous work, Wiz.

598. JJBiener - 9/28/1999 4:32:34 PM

Wiz - I should have recognized you. I apologize. Great work BTW. I am becoming a full fledged fan.

Just curious. What would you charge to paint a mural in a private residence?

599. Rivendell - 9/28/1999 4:33:51 PM

Sometimes offensive is merely in the eye of the beholder. There are artists whose only means of garnering attention is to be outrageous and then there are artists who did not, as their first priority, mean to offend, but the public took offense anyway. There are situations where the public was not able to make the distinction between a work that goes in an unexpected direction and one that is intentionally offensive.

A couple of examples off the top of my head are the initial public reactions to School for Wives and Waiting for Godot.

600. Cellar Door - 9/28/1999 4:33:55 PM

Fabulous!

601. theDiva - 9/28/1999 4:36:00 PM

Riv

Your first description fits what I was trying to say....those who intend to offend for the sake of offensiveness.

602. theDiva - 9/28/1999 4:36:46 PM

And what are you listening to right now?

603. JJBiener - 9/28/1999 4:55:04 PM

Diva - You didn't ask me, but I am listening to Spyro Gyra - Dreams Beyond Control. It isn't particularly challenging, but it is easy to listen to and work at the same time.

604. theDiva - 9/28/1999 5:03:15 PM

JJ

well, I directed the question at everyone in the room, so I s'pose you count. (g)

605. Buck Mulligan - 9/28/1999 5:27:30 PM

I'm listening to a webcast: Here She Comes Now by Galaxy 500.

606. theDiva - 9/28/1999 5:29:29 PM

John Coltrane's Giant Steps

607. Rivendell - 9/28/1999 5:31:12 PM

Diva,

I am currently posting between classes, so nothing is in the CD drive. However, when I have a wicked moment it will be either Somethin' Else or Jazz at Massey Hall.

608. JudithAtHome - 9/28/1999 5:35:10 PM

Diane Rehm show on NPR.

609. JudithAtHome - 9/28/1999 5:36:16 PM

Wizard:

Your work is stunning...thanks for sharing.

610. SharonSchroeder - 9/28/1999 5:36:43 PM

Not that anyone asked me but I'm listening to Billy Holiday.

611. marjoribanks - 9/28/1999 5:37:32 PM

Vocal Sampling: De Vacaciones

Check it out, it's really excellent a capella music by a virtuoso Cuban group.

612. theDiva - 9/28/1999 5:37:33 PM

Sharon

I knew there was a reason I loved you.

613. SharonSchroeder - 9/28/1999 5:38:35 PM

Hi Diva dahling... how are you?

614. Cellar Door - 9/28/1999 5:40:03 PM

I'm listening to Francine Griffin.

615. theDiva - 9/28/1999 5:40:56 PM

I'm devastated because I have to leave now, just as you've arrived. But, fabulous otherwise.

See youse all tomorrow.

616. SharonSchroeder - 9/28/1999 5:43:10 PM

Diva dahling... see ya later... hugs and kisses

617. janjon - 9/28/1999 6:22:09 PM

It is easy enough to throw out tsktsks in a number of directions concerning the current Brooklyn Museum brouhaha. Certainly, eyebrows can raise a little at the raison d'etre of the Museum mounting the show at all - not because of its artistic merit or lack thereof, but because it is all from one private collection (Charles Saatchi), none of which is going to the Museum, unlike the various shows at places like the Met of the promised Annenberg collection or the almost innumerable Mellon treasures shown at the National Gallery over the years. (Christie's is one of the sponsors of the Brooklyn show. Hmmmm.) And, the Museum certainly agitated things with its p.r. approach to the show. I wouldn't exactly call it titillating, but to "caution" people that the show might cause you to vomit, etc., certainly is in bad taste and can accurately, I think, be characterized as being nothing more than callous sensationalizing for the sake of sensationalizing.

And, according to the papers today, it would appear that it certainly has taken the other major New York City cultural institutions a very very long time to decide whether to dip their toe into the current muck and with what fervor. The almighty $$$$. Ain't America great?

But, but, but. Those tsktsks are mild compared to the New York mayor's acts. Gee, one suspects that he has concluded that there might be a lot of nominally democratic Catholic votes out there he might be able to pluck. Philistine is too mild for that asshole.

618. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 7:13:20 PM

Mark O'Connor, Heros.

619. Rivendell - 9/28/1999 9:19:43 PM

Over the weekend the Mrs. and I went to see the first production of the mainstage season at The Repertory Theatre of St. Louis. The play was Book of Days by Missouri playwright Lanford Wilson. The play was originally commissioned by the Purple Rose Theatre Co. in Chelsea, MI. After it closes here on Oct. 8th this production moves to the Hartford Stage in CT. It opens there Oct. 21st. I highly recommend this play to any Motiers in the northeast U.S. who may be able to make it to Hartford.

Apparently Wilson was in residence here during the auditions and some of the rehearsals. This production was directed by Marshall Mason, who has worked with Wilson on the initial productions of all his plays for the last 35 years.

Book of Days uses Shaw’s St. Joan as a jumping off point. In fact, the main character, Ruth Hoch, is playing Shaw’s Joan in a community theatre production that is part of the story of the play. Ruth has good reason to believe that the rich owner of the cheese factory, the major industry in the tiny town of Dublin, MO, did not die in a hunting accident, but was murdered. As an added complication, Ruth’s husband is the manager of the factory.

Book of Days is not a typical murder mystery, however. It does not have the neatly satisfying ending so typical of that genre. It is instead the type of play praised by Uzmakk and myself in previous posts in this thread.

Wilson makes delicious use of some of Bertolt Brecht’s ideas. The play is very episodic and we jump around in time as the realities in the play unfold. Characters announce the setting of each scene. Actors stay onstage when they are not in the scene and react as audience to the play.

620. Rivendell - 9/28/1999 9:20:02 PM

The scenery was minimal to the point of being non-existent. The stage was simply a raked floor with a one step level across upstage, and a back wall. The floor and back wall consisted entirely of rough looking wood planks. Eight four-seat benches, two tables and four chairs were rearranged in various combinations to provide the furniture pieces for all scenes.

This focused attention on the skills of the actors and they were worth the attention. Ruth, played by Suzi Regan, did a particularly nice job. One scene in particular was a testament to Ms. Regan’s ability. She had to portray an actress auditioning for a community theatre production of St. Joan. The character is supposed to be unprepared for the audition demands of the director. And so Regan has to show the character doing a poor job, but who displays a great deal of talent in spite of the lousy audition.

If Book of Days is any indication then I look forward to Much Ado About Nothing on Oct. 31st.

621. Rivendell - 9/28/1999 9:21:47 PM

The link in 619 does not work. In any case, if you are interested, the address is repstl.org

622. PsychProf - 9/28/1999 9:44:58 PM

RIV'S LINK

623. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 11:08:47 PM

Wow, what a crew we have here. Wizard, your use of vegatable dyed horse manure is most impressive. chuckle, chuckle.

624. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 11:12:28 PM

But you know, its just not offensive enough to be considered real art. The dung is good, but the sky just isn't treated in an offensive enough manner.

625. Uzmakk - 9/28/1999 11:14:42 PM

Rivendell:
If Hartford were a bit closer I would go see Book of Days.

626. arkymalarky - 9/29/1999 3:39:41 AM

Saw a nice bit of idiocy on the local news tonite. It seems some people have called the mayor of Hot Springs complaining about nudes displayed in the art galleries' windows downtown.

627. RosettaSTONE - 9/29/1999 4:41:42 AM

male or female?

628. joezan - 9/29/1999 6:10:05 AM

arky:

In Hot Springs?

They're complaint is probably, "Them womens is too dang fat. An' who in the blue blazes is this Rubens fella anyways? Probly some dam yankee..."

629. joezan - 9/29/1999 6:10:38 AM

Uh...their complaint...

630. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/29/1999 6:34:09 AM

Bring on the censors!!!



[...and thanks for the kind words above J.& U.]

631. joezan - 9/29/1999 6:42:26 AM

Wizard, you filthy bastard!

632. moonflower - 9/29/1999 1:25:42 PM

In an art museum in Amsterdam, I saw an electric neon piece of two men
having anal sex. Anyone could walk through the room. And nobody was in a panic, weirded out, or wanted to hide under a cassock. It was one work among many. Had this been displayed in one of our American museums, we'd have mayors, Senators, the whole ugly lot(t) trying to erase it, to prevent anyone from seeing it. We need more artists/poets and curators with the courage to risk.

633. PsychProf - 9/29/1999 1:30:11 PM

Ah...I see...if it's fucking and it offends, it's art. Now I understand. Sorry, Moon, but you have to stretch my mind more than that.

634. Nostradamus - 9/29/1999 6:21:56 PM

Anybody know where this comes from:

'To make an end is to make a beginning.'

Not very easy to identify the source, I know. Just curious.

635. PsychProf - 9/29/1999 6:23:28 PM

Nos...sounds like my Uncle Jim.

636. RosettaSTONE - 9/29/1999 6:49:37 PM

New York, Sept. 30, (API) In a move intended to mollify the critics of "Sensation," his new show of "shock art," Arnold Lehman, director of the Brooklyn Museum of Art, has decided to add a work by an American artist.

John "Razorblade" McGurk's work of social protest, entitled "You are what you eat," will be added before the scheduled Oct. 2nd opening.

The work includes the actual ceramic appliance from the artist's loft. It was used by the artist for an entire week without the benefit of flushing. It was then crated and moved by the Cirkers Hayes company to the museum in Brooklyn.

This piece will cause the museum to add it's original warning label, "Exposure to this art may cause hepatitis, typhoid, intestinal parasites, or other communicable diseases. Please consult a physician before viewing."

Mr. McGurk describes the work as a protest against modern America "Where we are forced to eat hormone-injected beef and genetically altered vegetables."

The museum is also considering the inclusion of McGurk's "I feel your pain," a work in which museum visitors can prick their fingers on a needle tainted with HIV positive blood, thus communing with the spirits of artists who have died from AIDS.

637. janjon - 9/29/1999 6:54:02 PM

636 sounds like a reprint of a Dave Barry column or some other satiric piece without attribution.

It certainly doesn't have the ring of truth.

638. RosettaSTONE - 9/29/1999 7:04:30 PM

I picked it up from the "Politics and Art: Strange Bedfellows" thread in TT. Yes, clearly it's a parody.

639. janjon - 9/29/1999 7:07:29 PM

I am not sure I would call it a parody. Whatever it is, it is heavyhanded and humorless, to put it mildly.

640. RosettaSTONE - 9/29/1999 7:50:48 PM

Well, you sound like the humorless one, mackerel face.

641. janjon - 9/29/1999 8:07:07 PM

rosettastone. Its just a matter of taste.

642. Uzmakk - 9/30/1999 12:57:27 PM

Looking through my audiobook catalog for something new I came upon Reason in Art by George Santayana. The catalog blurb follows.

"The value of art lies in making people happy." Working from this premise, George Santayana explores the social and psychological origins of art. He examines its moral and ideal functions, its lapses into tastelessness, and the distinctive character of music, speech, poetry, and prose. The Spanish-born philosopher concludes that art prepares the world "to receive the soul, and the soul to master the world."..........

...Santayana was also a poet, novelist and literary critic. His prose prompts one, as Kant said of Rousseau, to read his work several times, giving attention to the substance rather than the beauty of style.
________

I think I will add this one to my list.

643. Uzmakk - 9/30/1999 1:12:51 PM

I have no problem applying what was said above to art that gives one pause. I like to think. I like to reformulate things. On the other hand, moonflower's Neon Male Humpers causes me to reformulate nothing. A simple descent into tastelessness.

644. Diogenes - 9/30/1999 2:35:25 PM

Underline this!

645. Uzmakk - 9/30/1999 2:52:43 PM

this!

646. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/30/1999 5:05:19 PM

Michael Kimmelman’s review of “Sensation” was a well balanced viewpoint, I thought.

647. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/30/1999 5:15:52 PM

... also from today’s NYT:

“Thursday was the first day of business at the "Sensation" gift shop, a boutique on the museum's fourth floor, where curios relating to the exhibition are for sale.

Like the exhibition, the shop's wares range from the strange to the stranger. Want a paperweight consisting of a plastic rat encased in an amber block? The shop has it, for $2.95. How about a lunch box with the biohazard symbol? Yours for $8.95.

Sallie Stutz, the museum's vice director for marketing, said the store's merchandise was aimed at consumers who wanted to take a little of the exhibit's odd ethos home with them.

"We used the word sensation as a point of departure," Ms. Stutz said. "Touching sensations, feeling sensations, thought sensations."

That apparently includes items like Astroturf place mats ($6.75) and toilet paper rolls wrapped in yellow caution tape ($4.50). There are also yapping battery-powered pigs, and socks and wallets and CD cases emblazoned with the British flag, a nod to the young British artists whose work makes up the exhibition.”

648. Rivendell - 9/30/1999 5:46:48 PM

TheWizofWhim,

I enjoyed the Kimmelman review. It is easy to smirk about Guiliani and the "Look at what your tax dollars are being spent on" crowd. And, Kimmelman states, again, the obvious - if you weren't making such a fuss about it then few people would have even noticed it. But he also takes the museum and the art establishment to task as well and I enjoyed reading that part as much as any.

649. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/30/1999 6:04:17 PM

In that case, Riv, you might enjoy this story about another Mary who got “dunged!” It may well be that the art trendoids have worn out their tolerance quotient in NYC.

650. Rivendell - 9/30/1999 6:32:31 PM

Wiz,

Seems it shouldn't be too hard to determine if the bullets were indeed live and if the rifles and pistols really were functional. If they were then Ms. Boone needs to be a bit more careful. If they were not then the police need a hobby.

651. janjon - 9/30/1999 7:37:29 PM

The bullets have tested out to be live. And at least one of the guns has proven to be functional. Mary Boone calls it an abuse of First Amendment rights. The police say it is the equivalent of the fact that you can't commit murder and then call it art (like in snuff killing I suppose).

If I were Mary I wouldn't get too contrary on this one. Live bullets are just a silly affect.

652. Rivendell - 9/30/1999 7:46:41 PM

janjon,

The law professor's quote ""No one can go out and commit a murder and say that was performance art," was pretty silly. If, as you say, the rounds were live and one of the firearms was functional then Ms. Boone deserves what happened to her on the basis of gross stupidity if for no other reason. How hard could it have been to ensure that the firearms were permanently disabled and that there was no powder in the cartridges?

And both of those safety measures could have been taken without sacrificing the artistic integrity of the work and the show in any way.

653. janjon - 9/30/1999 7:50:41 PM

Rivendell - I agree with everything that you say except the characterization about the murder can't be art comment. Take away that as being the example and simply say that you can't break the law and justify it by calling it art.

I understand that Miss Boone has an imperious manner in the best of times. She should not let this become one of her worst of times by being an ass on a misguided principle.

654. Rivendell - 9/30/1999 7:58:54 PM

janjon,

I'm not quibbling with the law professor's point, just with the unnecessarily extreme example. Put it another way, I'm reasonably certain Ms. Boone supports the relatively strict firearms laws in NYC. Illuminating her hypocrisy in this situation is enough to show why she is wrong (and dumb). There is nothing in Ms. Boone's actions to indicate she would in any way support the commission of a murder as part of a performance art work.

655. janjon - 9/30/1999 8:29:28 PM

Rivendell. We are in agreement.

656. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/30/1999 10:52:41 PM

In that case, Riv, you might enjoy this story about another Mary who got “dunged!” It may well be that the art trendoids have worn out their tolerance quotient in NYC.

657. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/30/1999 11:06:44 PM

Sorry for the double post above. I was away from the computer for a few hours and when I hit reload it must have triggered it.

Mary Boone — “imperious” - indeed. You could cut her pretensions with a chain saw!

658. PsychProf - 10/2/1999 8:16:19 PM

AND THEY WILL COME

Click on photo

659. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 8:47:05 PM

660. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 9:19:23 PM

Psood,

Who are those by? I guess 20's or 30's, from the subcontinent. They're reminiscent of Jamini Roy, if not hers.

661. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 9:20:29 PM

Hahahaha.

662. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 9:20:47 PM

Hahahaha.

663. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 9:21:14 PM

Who the hell is Jamini Roy?

664. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 9:22:33 PM

665. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 9:22:37 PM

666. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 9:28:31 PM

667. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 9:30:01 PM

Hello?

Jamini Roy.

668. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 9:37:24 PM

That repeated photograph of crude murals is almost certainly Siberian.

669. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:10:14 PM

It is not "Siberian". You obviously don't know shit about anything.

670. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 10:15:39 PM

Charming Gentleman,

Please tell all of us innocents what your images are.

671. PsychProf - 10/2/1999 10:17:09 PM

Marj...North Dakota is the clear source...

672. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:20:27 PM

Marzipranks, this is a quiz. You are supposed to guess the provenance from the style.

673. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:22:51 PM

Here is another example of the "crude" "Siberian" "mural":

674. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 10:26:33 PM

A quiz, ah, thank you for letting us know.

The first photographs are reminiscent of eary twentieth-century Indian art. They're definitely modern, perhaps derivative. Jamini Roy is one person who employed such lines several decades ago.

The second is of a roof, or a wall. It depicts a crude mural, probably of Russian Far East motifs. It could be a mural in Mongolia as well.

675. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:30:13 PM

Completely wrong on every count in every instance. Marzipranks, you've got the artistic sensibility of a dung collector.

676. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:32:52 PM

The clothing, motifs, faces, totally rule out the Russian Far East and certain Mongolia. What sort of civilisation do you think existed in the Russian Far East? It was just a fucking forest until the Russians showed up.

677. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:34:43 PM

All these frescoes come from exactly the same place.

678. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 10:35:33 PM

Completely wrong? I cannot believe that. What is the origin of the photographs in #659?

679. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:40:03 PM

More of these "crude" "Siberian" "murals":

680. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 10:45:17 PM

Now that one, I like. A lot.

Are you implying that all these photographs are of murals from the same structure, or the same walls? Obviously not. You're merely trying to be cute.

681. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:45:33 PM

"Certainly Siberian", "definitely modern", "reminiscient of" this and that. Just listen to the spurious authority & confidence with which this art poseur speaks. Siberian! Russian Far East motifs! Hahahaha.

682. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:49:09 PM

#680

All these frescoes come from precisely the same location, but they date from different centuries. But the range of dates does NOT exceed three centuries.

The dates you guessed for the frescoes in #659 are about 1600 years too late.

683. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:51:38 PM

Here is another of the murals that Marzipranks mistook for a Lascaux painting:

684. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 10:52:44 PM

Just look at all those "Russian Far Eastern" motifs in #683!!!

685. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 10:59:34 PM

CutieP,

If this was supposed to be a quiz, why are you getting huffy about my guesses?

Secondly, you misrepresented the nature of the quiz when you said "All these frescoes come from exactly the same place.". This implies, to most English speakers, that they come from the same structure. Obviously, that is untrue.

Thirdly, if in fact the "answer" you give wrt to the murals in #659 is that they are ancient, I'll be very interested, but reasonably doubtful.

686. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 11:05:20 PM

Huffy? No, I'm not huffy, but every time you pronounce on certain subjects, you confirm my opinion of you as the mock-epicurean poseur. So, I am forced to make certain pro forma snide comments.

"Secondly, you misrepresented the nature of the quiz when you said. "All these frescoes come from exactly the same place.' This implies, to most English speakers, that they come from the same structure. Obviously, that is untrue."

I misrepresented nothing. All these frescoes are cave art, they all come from one single cave complex. Thus, the same location.

Doubt what you want about #659. You're ignorant. Those two are dated to 300-350 AD.

687. marjoribanks - 10/2/1999 11:40:41 PM

Psood,

You are being highly disingenuous or perhaps rather naive. The artwork you have presented here is not from the same source, in any way any reasonable person would use the word "source." One geographic location over centuries, maybe.

WRT #659, if you can somehow prove that those photographs depict ancient artwork I would be somewhat surprised, but nonetheless gladdened and impressed. However, I don't think they are ancient.

688. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 11:51:16 PM

Marzipranks, #687

You are an idiot. I have NEVER used the phrase "same source". You did.

I said the "same place", I even qualified the remark by saying the same location over three centuries.

Every single art work presented by me today comes from the same cave complex (Dunhuang) in the Gansu province of China.

As for #659, I don't see why I need to prove it. Persist in your ignorance. The photos come from the picture book "The Cave Art of Dunhuang". Go look it up. Of course, you made a fool out of yourself, hence your continued need to doubt my word.

689. pseudoerasmus - 10/2/1999 11:56:20 PM

Picture book? Excuse me, I meant the website, Cave art of Dunhuang.

690. wabbit - 10/3/1999 12:02:40 AM

PE,

Mogao Grottoes?

691. wabbit - 10/3/1999 12:04:06 AM

sigh, too late, nevermind.

692. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:04:39 AM

Yes, Wabbit, this junk Hindooo seems to think it reasonable that I refer to the Magao Grottoes as "the same place".

693. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:04:46 AM

Pseuder, you juvenile,

I will examine the artwork that purportedly comes from the said "cave complex" in a mere three centuries, and will look for reputable sources.

Thanks for the images, by the way. #679, particularly, is fantastic. Still, I have a hard time believing it's over 1000 years old.

694. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:05:00 AM

UNreasonable

695. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:09:30 AM

Marzipranks, you indulge in your Sockoid habit of TOTALLY misreading what I said and you call me juvenile? You apparently don't know anything about the extensive cave complexes of Gansu and Xinjiang. At any one of these complexes, in a single location, are found a staggering variety of art and art styles which flourished over the centuries, up to the 8th century or so. The Magao Complex of Dunhuang is simply the most famous of these. There are less famous ones at Kuqa and Turpan. You found it difficult to believe that #659 is 1600 years old because there is a giant lacuna in your art knowledge, despite your connoisseur pretentions.

696. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/3/1999 12:12:53 AM

They look Buddhist to me - Central Asia, I’d guess, China maybe — early — but I couldn’t date them.

[PE’s condescension is still quite easy to identify however.]

697. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:17:15 AM

TheWizardofWhimsy

I would not have acted this way if it were someone other than Marzipranks. Apparently he doesn't take it seriously when I keep telling him I don't like him and I find him an insufferable poseur twit.

698. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:22:04 AM

"You apparently don't know anything about the extensive cave complexes of Gansu and Xinjiang. At any one of these complexes, in a single location, are found a staggering variety of art and art styles which flourished over the centuries, up to the 8th century or so. The Magao Complex of Dunhuang is simply the most famous of these. There are less famous ones at Kuqa and Turpan. You found it difficult to believe that #659 is 1600 years old because there is a giant lacuna in your art knowledge, despite your connoisseur pretentions."

Pseuder,

Yes, I know nothing about the cave complexes you mention. A couple of the photographs you posted were very interesting, however. I'm going to look for material on these caves.

However, please understand that a couple of the various photographs you have posted look _extremely_ like contemporary renditions. #659 looks exactly like an early work from the Progressive Art Movement which came about in WWII Bombay.

699. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/3/1999 12:22:36 AM

Condescending... but often amusing in its unbridled passion!

700. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:24:05 AM

There is no such thing as the Progressive Art Movement of Bombay. Marzipranks just made it up.

701. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:24:07 AM

Pompous Presumptious Poltroon,

I, on the other hand, am quite fond of your antics.

702. wabbit - 10/3/1999 12:26:12 AM

Here is a blurb from a book I wish I could afford.

703. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:27:06 AM

Infantile alliteration and calling me "Tomatopuree" at TableTalk. If you've hit rhetorical rock bottom, haven't you, filthy Hindoooo?

704. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:29:04 AM

Girlie-boy,

Here is something about the Progressive Artists.

705. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:32:17 AM

Dulcet Wabbit: It's my plan to see Dunhuang's Magao Caves and Turfan's Bezeklik Caves next summer on my way to Moscow. This summer I ran out of time for Turpan, but I did get to see the little known Kizil Caves of Kuqa. They have less merit artistically, and suffer from serious defacing by Muslim enforcers, but are historically more interesting. The strangest thing about them is that the Buddhist figurines at Kizil have red hair and red beards. They were done not by Chinese but Tocharians, a people of European appearance who converted to Buddhism in the 2nd century.

706. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:34:47 AM

Wow, that book is $500!

Marzipranks: I always enjoy making you do pointless work.

707. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:36:50 AM

I wish I could show you some of the Kizil cave art, but I wasn't allowed to take any photos, nor were there any picture cards or books on the caves on sale locally, and I can't find any other material on the internet or at the library.

708. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:37:17 AM

Pointless work? Far from it, I consider my toilings here to be of service to our Internet audience.

709. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:41:56 AM

By the way, I quite like "Tomatopuree". I think others in TT will start calling you that in short order.

710. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:42:21 AM

I wish I could show you some of the Kizil cave art, but I wasn't allowed to take any photos, nor were there any picture cards or books on the caves on sale locally, and I can't find any other material on the internet or at the library.

711. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 12:44:42 AM

#709

I'm sure the TTers will glom onto that witty appellation as passionately as they've heeded your call to stampede into the Mote. Congratulations, by the way, for netting one new participant in the International thread. You've really set the tone, too, with all that punning. I'm sure newcomers could only be regaled by such displays.

712. marjoribanks - 10/3/1999 12:53:55 AM

Psood, psood,

I am only guilty of being myself. On occasion, punning overtakes me, particularly in the presence of the Paqs.

Your sustained collaboration in making the Sanctum a more compelling place is welcomed. Please help, especially if you think you can increase the viewership/subscription of this site.

713. Uzmakk - 10/3/1999 1:42:56 AM

Do you mean to tell me that the Mote is not the most viewed site on the internet? Barring porn sites, ofcourse.

714. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/3/1999 2:06:05 AM

Hey — I got a bullseye with my guess!!!

715. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 3:11:22 AM

More Serindian art:

716. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 3:11:39 AM

Yet more Serindian art:

717. dusty - 10/3/1999 3:35:04 AM

Uzmakk
Do you mean to tell me that the Mote is not the most viewed site on the internet? Barring porn sites, ofcourse.
Not yet, but it's still early.

718. wabbit - 10/3/1999 6:16:08 PM

PE,

Is there still any significant research being done at Kuqa? I was hoping that eventually something would be published that would include photos of the caves.

719. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 6:19:29 PM

Hahahahaha. It's more likely the Chinese will seal off the Kuqa caves completely than allow too much research to go on there. The Chinese are under the impression that the frescoes there -- done by non-Chinese -- will add to the local separatist sentiment. Kuqa is located in Xinjiang, a province populated by the Uighurs, a Muslim, Turkic-speaking people.

720. pseudoerasmus - 10/3/1999 6:20:04 PM

I forgot to mention #715 and #716 are from Bezkeklik, not Magao.

721. wabbit - 10/3/1999 6:48:43 PM

That's a shame. I've read bits and pieces about the mummies and the liguistic interest in the area, but I would have liked to have seen something about the cave art.

722. Uzmakk - 10/3/1999 11:24:28 PM

717Dusty:
My feelings exactly.

723. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/4/1999 6:16:36 AM

This thread is putting me to sleep!

724. Seguine - 10/4/1999 10:46:10 PM

Very old flutes.

725. JJBiener - 10/5/1999 12:29:04 AM

PE - "you've got the artistic sensibility of a dung collector"

Considering the current art displays in Brooklyn, this might be considered a compliment.

726. JJBiener - 10/5/1999 12:31:50 AM

Banks - I am only guilty of being myself.

In your case, that is quite enough. In PE's case, though, it would mean hard time in 38 states and 42 countries.

727. Uzmakk - 10/5/1999 2:14:53 AM

dung collector=pure finder (English terminlogy of past centuries)

728. JJBiener - 10/5/1999 4:24:09 AM

Uzi - We can always count on you for a unique perspective.

729. moonflower - 10/5/1999 2:19:44 PM

Icky essay by John Leo in new US NEW & WORLD REPORT. All tut-tutting about the museum and Hillary blah blah blah. Why he would write about art at all is beyond me. It would be like me writing about nuclear physics.

730. Adrianne - 10/5/1999 4:02:56 PM

Diva

A long time ago, in a place far, far, away, you referenced a book containing anecdotes from the jazz world. I think you reprinted one about Miles Davis. Do you remember? What's the name of that book?

731. theDiva - 10/5/1999 4:07:55 PM

Jazz Anecdotes

One of my all-time favorites.

732. Adrianne - 10/5/1999 4:33:34 PM

Thank you, darling, that's two more xmas gifts down, hahahahah

733. theDiva - 10/5/1999 4:42:23 PM

You're welcome. Incidentally, you ought to get a copy for yourself and Fang!. Some of those anecdotes make great bedtime stories.

734. JJBiener - 10/5/1999 5:09:18 PM

Adrianne - Jazz Anecdotes is one of my favorites as well.

735. JonesAtLaw - 10/5/1999 8:37:53 PM

Went to First Friday Jam at Joslyn Art Museum last week. Local musicians play in a enclosed courtyard, lots of food and drink, and the museum keeps its featured exhibits open during the concert. A really great time. Sandy Skogland was featured. There were several installations as well as a number of her photographs. Really fun stuff-
photo

736. arkymalarky - 10/5/1999 11:25:25 PM

Interesting site someone sent me in email:
Country Joe McDonald

737. phillipdavid - 10/6/1999 3:32:28 AM

arky,

I couldn't resist listening to Country Joe's "I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-to-Die Rag."

The live Woodstock version, though, has more energy and is much better than the version he has online on that site.

738. cmboyce - 10/7/1999 8:35:10 PM

Pseudoerasmus, those pictures are spectacular! I've bookmarked the site and look forward to re-visiting it.

Incidentally, Orientations magazine devoted their 11/96 issue to Dunhuang, but the pix weren't nearly as good as these. (Also, while looking for it, I found the 1/99 issue, featuring Alchi, a temple complex in Ladakh with interior paintings that reminded me of the last couple you showed. Do you know Alchi?)

There is a great picture book on Dunhuang; somewhere in my pigpen of a library I have a flyer for it--itself a very nice, if tiny, art book--but I can't find it, or I'd name the book.

I hope that before my grandchildren die, all the great (and even lesser) Central Asian sites get well published in the West. (Hell, before I die!! But that's impossible, I fear.) This is a body of art at least the equal of (and in some ways reminiscent of) Italian Primitive painting.

739. cmboyce - 10/7/1999 8:37:15 PM

740. cmboyce - 10/7/1999 8:38:19 PM

Sorry, I thought I'd gotten that. Gotta get back to previewing.

741. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 9:26:22 PM

I have a recording problem that I am looking for help with. I have been trying to record my band with a Tascam 414 4-track cassette deck. I have the following track set up

1 - Output from the PA mixer (Mackie 1202), vocals and keyboard
2 - Bass direct in
3 - Drums (single mic in front)
4 - Guitar direct in

The problem is that the vocals are distorting. Everything else, including the keyboard, comes through relatively clean. The vocals are trash. I have tried using the Control Room outs which have the same output as the mains. I also tried using an effects send which allowed me to adjust levels of the vocals in the submix. Neither approach fixed the problem.

I am looking for suggestions on how to solve this problem. I understand that distortion is caused when a signal overruns a gain stage and get clipped. How do I use this knowledge to locate the problem and fix it?

Thank you to anyone who can help.

742. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 9:43:05 PM

JJ,

My experience with live recording is rather limited, but I'll do what I can. I've found the Mackie to be very forgiving of the vagaries of the voice. If everything but the vocals comes through relatively clean is it possible that your vocal mics are not quite up to the task?

One other thing off the top of my head - there is a trim control at the top of the column of controls for each mic channel. Is it possible that the trim control is too high?

743. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 9:56:45 PM

JJ,

I just remembered that I recorded one of our radio shows last year. The vocal mics were Shure SM58's that went directly into the 3-pin mic inputs in channels 1 through 4 on our Mackie 1202. From there it went via the record output on the Mackie directly to a run of the mill Marantz cassette deck. The voices recorded beautifully and I had to make no adjustments other than what we did for the live feed into the auditorium.

744. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 10:09:11 PM

Riv - The trim control reduces the level going into the pre-amp. Correct? That might help. I have also noticed that if the singer gets too close to the mic it distorts as well. Reducing the trim level might help with that as well.

The distortion occurs going into the tape deck, but not into the PA. But then we have a big Crown amplifier that should be able to handle most anything.

Thanks for your help. I'll try it next week at practice. If you think of anything else before then, let me know.

745. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 10:13:12 PM

Riv - I guess the real solution would be to get better mics. I am using AKG 936's and an 880. The 880 is a good mic but it is real sensitive. I am sure the Shure would work better. Now I just need to justify it to SuzyQ.

746. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 10:13:15 PM

JJ,

I've noticed that about the trim control as well. The vocals can sound fine through the amp/speakers and still be too hot for a tape deck.

If it is something more complicated than that then the advice of a person like Chuck would be more to you. He's had far more experience with live music than I've had. We seldom, if ever, work at the input levels a band like yours or his would consider normal.

747. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 10:14:35 PM

insert valuable where appropriate.

748. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 10:17:24 PM

JJ,

The SM58 is a commonly used vocal mic. I've seen it quite often when I've worked tour shows as a stagehand. I'm not familiar with the performance characteristics of your AKGs. I do know that the student performers here can get right on top of the Shure and scream into it (we did something like that last year for a comic sounding bear growl) and the Shure handled it with no problem.

749. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 10:28:33 PM

Riv - The 414 is really meant as a notepad recorder for singer-songwriter types. It has sounded remarkably good on the couple of things I did with just keyboard and my vocal. Rich's vocals however are far more powerful than mine. I need to be more careful about assuming that what works for my voice, will work for his. We have the same range, but the similarity ends there.

I hope Chuck see these posts and comments as well. I would like his input. If I'm not mistaken Cartman is also a musician. Right now, I will take all the suggestions I can get.

750. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 10:35:04 PM

Riv - The Shure SM-58 is probably the single most popular microphone ever made. I have seen a lot of musicians eat one without it distorting. The AKG's were cheaper though. That was more of a concern then than it is now. At that point we were strictly a basement band with no way of knowing if we would ever play out. Now we are playing out and we have paying gigs coming up. I think we need to make the investment.

751. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 10:40:15 PM

JJ,

I was going to use your short hand phrase when I described what the students did to the Shure, but I was afraid Diva would pick up on it and we'd have a repeat of the you-know-what thread again.

BTW - I accidently dropped one of our mics the other day. It bounced off a step and landed on a concrete floor. It still works fine. I don't recommend regular applications of this treatment, but I can say that I've found the Shure to be very durable as well.

752. theDiva - 10/7/1999 10:49:24 PM

Riv

Truly. As if I'd ever stoop to such juvenalia.

753. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 10:49:39 PM

Gak! I am still cringing. I know mics are more durable than I give them credit for, but still.

Have you been over to Mars Music on St. Charles Rock Road? It is huge discount store for musicians. The had SM-58's for $100. I am seriously considering picking one up to see if helps.

754. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 10:50:21 PM

Diva - Perish forbid.

755. theDiva - 10/7/1999 10:51:18 PM

JJ

Imagine. After all, I am banned in Seattle. I must be a formidable and serious personage.

756. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 10:57:41 PM

JJ,

It's probably just as well that you could not hear what I was saying as I watched the mic seem to travel in slow motion from the step to the floor.

I don't remember what we paid for ours, but $100 seems like a deal. I probably got a break on the cost since we purchased two 100w amps, six speakers and four mic stands at the same time. I believe it was from Swing City over in Illinois.

757. Dantheman - 10/7/1999 10:57:53 PM

Diva,
You mean they only ban formidable and serious personages in Seattle? How did you get banned, then?


P.S. I have been lurking enough to know what you mean.

758. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 10:59:37 PM

Diva,

You stooping to juvenalia is a stretch, I'll grant you. So just humor me.

759. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 11:02:01 PM

Diva - Yes, yes, you are a serious and formidable personage. Yes, you are most certainly that.







HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I held it as long as I could.

760. theDiva - 10/7/1999 11:02:45 PM

heeheehee

Oh, and a reminder.

Sunday is Thelonious Monk's birthday.

Commemorate appropriately.

G'night.

761. theDiva - 10/7/1999 11:03:27 PM

Toys, JJ.

Children.

Sheesh.

762. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 11:05:02 PM

Riv - I haven't been to Swing City in a couple of years. It is right off 70 on 159 in Collinsville. The last couple of times I was there, I was rather disappointed in their selection and their service. Until Mars opened, I went to McMurray almost exclusively.

763. Rivendell - 10/7/1999 11:23:32 PM

I probably shouldn't admit it but the only Monk I own is a recording from a very nice person's collection. Perhaps that will be appropriate enough for now.

JJ,

I used Swing City because the sound sub-contractor got the best price for what we needed through them. I know they handle the Shure, but if you need to buy other schtuff as well...

I've tucked Mars away for future reference.

Have good weekends all.

764. JJBiener - 10/7/1999 11:34:22 PM

Diva - I cleaned that up. I swear. I can't imagine what happened.

765. Uzmakk - 10/8/1999 8:57:40 PM

A SHORT TALL TALE OF MUSIC AND ART

You will recall, Pelle, that I described a project to you and that you immediately posted the image, which had the closest correspondence to the project. (I.e. you posted a picture of the model). You seem to have your nose very deeply into my businesses. You seem to anticipate every move. Or, do we call that synergy. Be that as it may. I write from some old notes, revised,----- I don't know if any of you recall, a project that I mentioned while we were marooned at the other place. It was the {---- log boat}{----log book} I am quite sure that Pelle remembers it, witness his excellent piece on the Mote Boat. I mentioned that I was going to build a replica of the Oseberg Viking Ship and encode a rough account of the ---- in its construction.

Why? Because I am Uzmakk, and I do these things. And it made sense, what with going off on a journey with a bunch of folks for who knows how long. An easy metaphor. And all this was set.

BUT, what changed the metaphor and makes the beginning of a good story is that the sponsor snatches the original little boat with its advanced design from the original crew. The crew is black-jacked by some thug hirelings, and when they regain consciousness they hear the instructions,"Boarde the new and improved boat or be off with you."

No matter. Being a resourceful and spunky bunch, they flip a quick bird to the corporate sponsor, piss in the larder before the new and improved boat disembarks, regroup, and build themselves a truly new and improved site boat, called the MOTE.

766. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 9:19:12 PM

Why? Because I am Uzmakk, and I do these things.

Never were truer words spoken. I await further news in feverish anticpation.

I just heard September Song with Jimmy Durante on the radio. Yes, we Swedes are updated on the lastest and the hottest.

767. Uzmakk - 10/8/1999 9:24:03 PM

And lo, the new site fits the metaphor better than the old site did. A new vessel formed in adversity, but an adversity no more daunting than that caused by a gnat to such a good and hearty crew. At any rate, the head of the new boat is beautiful, artful, pleasing to the eye, and as one engages the scroll feature of one's Microsoft mouse, in a slow and constant mode, one rises above the ship to a stationary point above the ocean and above the vessel gliding elegantly below. The deck, where the meat of the work is accomplished, is open, with the cargo sitting in neatly labeled packages. The tools of the trade are clustered at the edges, and hung from the gunwales. Now of these tools I can tell you very little, for I am a simple crewman, but I know that we have on board magicians, technicians, etc., etc., who are responsible for the amazing properties and capabilities of our new vessel. They know who they are, but I hesitate to mention them, for I have seen them fight over whom is the greater magician. From my perspective as a simple crewman I believe that I can make out some rendering equipment (in case we should encounter a whale I suppose), but I am sure of little of this. There appears to be a stock of the weaponry of the day, so that all can be useful in a SOS. I am not certain, as I have said, about the hardware that "those who know" have included, so I cannot describe it. But I do recognize the sheer, the shave, the broad axe, the breast auger, the sail foot control line, the leech line, the Tye halyard, and other things. At any rate, I go on at too great a length with the metaphor. Quickly I will say this though, that other sites of the day appear to me to be nothing so much as large splotches of albatross poop, in comparison to the Mote Boat. But let us switch to the real object.

768. Uzmakk - 10/8/1999 9:28:45 PM

All I have done so far, Pelle, is stain the wood of the hull. I mentioned this project to my sons last year, and never got around to starting it with them. One of them has asked about it, so I intend to get something done on it this winter. But you may recall that the ship has 30 shields, and that I was going to put witticisms of Moties on these shields, why, who knows, I may even back each shield with a circle of microfiche---time marches on, and it is something to be done over time. All I have time for now. Have other letters to write. At any rate, I will describe the current design of the project when I come back later today.

769. Uzmakk - 10/8/1999 9:29:23 PM

Toy away test.

770. Uzmakk - 10/8/1999 9:30:53 PM

Love, September Song, BTW.

771. JudithAtHome - 10/8/1999 9:35:41 PM

Does this work? I wonder.

772. JudithAtHome - 10/8/1999 9:36:27 PM

Evidently not.

773. wabbit - 10/8/1999 9:38:41 PM

774. wabbit - 10/8/1999 9:40:21 PM

test

775. wabbit - 10/8/1999 9:42:50 PM

again

776. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 9:52:45 PM

Uzmakk

Wonderful prose. Mysterious, yet clear; convoluted, yet precise.

I shall hit the Mote immediately upon the breakfast egg and hope to find more of it.

777. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 9:59:48 PM

Judith and wabbit --- #771-775

This is the Arts and Music thread. It may have esacaped you, ladies, but the crafty designers of this site have provided a dedicated area for tests and experiments:

Try the Mote

778. Uzmakk - 10/8/1999 10:04:39 PM

I am back. The rest should be easy. My boat is a metaphor not a historical reproduction. I want to make something beautiful. I want to make art. The hull planking has been stained a dark color, walnut, we shall say. Now,I intend to sand this stained planking, and if some of the color comes off I will restain it with an oak stain. I don't know what I am going to do with the deck yet, but I have a year to think about it. At any rate, this being a metaphor for the Mote, I must use a good bit of gold on this project (other sites resembling nothing so much as albatross poop, you will recall). The scroll work on the stempost and sternpost are perfect for this. As things now stand, they will be a gun-metal ground and gold figure,22-karat, ofcourse. And the deck is open!!! Why the possibilites are endless with an open deck. The boat can contain all manner of Motie memorabilia with an open deck. Treasure piled high.

779. JudithAtHome - 10/8/1999 10:46:22 PM

Sorry, Pelle.......we were only trying to put away your toys. :-)

780. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 10:50:20 PM

Uzmakk

... but I have a year to think about it...

I like that. Slow measured progress. Nothing done in haste. Technical questions: What kind of wood do you use for the hull planking? Have you cut it into actual planks already or will you do that later? Are you working from drawings of the original Oseberg ship or are you making your own?

For general information, here is a picture (model) of the ship Uzmakk refers to. It was discovered in Oseberg, Norway in 1903 and is dated to the second half of the 9th century.



Book Antiqua is a very nice font. I made a bit smaller here (size=2) than you did. I could think of it as default font for the Mote instead of the boring Times Roman.

781. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 11:01:18 PM

Judith

This is a true mystery. Stand by while I go back and try to reconstruct.

782. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 11:14:35 PM

Here are my findings.

Before I posted #766 I previewed, for two reasons. First because I have made that a habit whenever I have used HTML tags. It's so easy to go wrong. Second, because Uzmakk had posted in bold and I wanted to be sure he had put it away (he is known to forget sometimes).

Then you have Uzmakk's #769 where he checked for toys-away.

And then my jokey #777 which I obviously would not have posted if I had seen left toys around before you and wabbit posted. Everything looked normal to me then, but when I read your #779 and went back I saw what you and wabbit did see earlier.

Refer also to JJ's #764: "Diva - I cleaned that up. I swear. I can't imagine what happened."

There is something fishy here. Should it be reported to the Authorities?

783. wabbit - 10/8/1999 11:23:12 PM

Actually, the problem was at the end of Uzmakk's #765, where I believe he inadvertently used an opening italic tag where he meant to have a closing tag:

"and build themselves a (I)truly new and improved(I) site boat"

784. PelleNilsson - 10/8/1999 11:26:07 PM

But why didn't I see it?

785. Uzmakk - 10/9/1999 12:03:03 AM

Pelle:
I have the Billing Boats kit. Manufactured in Stostostoland.

786. wabbit - 10/9/1999 12:18:39 AM

Pelle, are you showing only 10 posts per page? If so, that is why everything looked normal to you. The post with the html error would have scrolled off by then.

787. Uzmakk - 10/9/1999 1:31:55 AM

sorry if I messed things up folks. I had intended to keep my initial commands open and close them all when I was finished with my postings, but I guess I made some kind of internal error like wabbit said. Sorry again. Nothing was visible from here except that Pelle snuck in a post and it appeared in Book Antiqua. It was Saturday afternoon; I though that surely I was alone.

788. EricCartman - 10/9/1999 8:09:22 AM

JJ:

I'm not familiar with the 414, but I have a Fostex X-26, which I believe is similar. It's more of a notebook type of deal. Riv came up with the first thing I thought of, which is the trim controls on your Mackie (I have a 1604). Set the trim to 0, unless it's a real low-volume mike. I've had limited experience with AKGs, but they seem OK. They're especially well-suited for studio recording. The SM58, for its price, really is the workhorse, especially for live stuff. I have two, plus an SM57 (for recording guitar). I abused my 58s for years with no side effects; they're pretty bulletproof. You should be able to pick one up from Musicians Friend (www.musiciansfriend.com) for $100, maybe $110.

Anyway, it's probably not the mike but the various settings. In addition to the trim control on the Mackie, there's probably two impedance settings on the 414. I'm assuming that the AKG is a 3-pin mike. If it's a ¼" phone jack that may be the problem -- low impedance, and the recorder may be on the high-imp setting.

OK, some questions: are you all recording live at the same time, or one track at a time? Is the keyboard amp being miked into the Mackie, or is that a direct feed from your keyboard into the mixer? What sort of keyboard is it? Are you doing a live recording (in a club) or a demo (in your basement)?

From what you've said, here's my assumption: you're doing a demo in a basement or small room, with everyone playing live, and the keyboard going direct into the Mackie. If this is the case, mike placement is critical. The vocal mike should not be facing even close to the same direction as the drum mike; if anything, the butt of the vocal mike should face directly at the bass drum. Another thing I'm wondering about is monitors -- are you using monitors too? Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I don't know the details, and that's usually where the problem lies.

789. EricCartman - 10/9/1999 8:09:50 AM

(cont. to JJ Biener):

When we did our demo for clubs, we did our live setup, in a living room, but recorded one track at a time, and used outboard effects processing during mixdown. You're better off recording a basic "hot" signal, then using your outboard rack equipment to effect it. Another reliable method is to record the music live on tracks 2, 3, & 4 (or whatever), then go back and dub your vocals in on track 1. Less live bleed that way.

I do have a fair amount of live and studio recording experience; feel free to ask me anything. You can also contact me at ecartman_61@hotmail.com. Good luck!

790. EricCartman - 10/9/1999 8:14:08 AM

I should be clear about the phrase "the butt of the vocal mike should face directly at the bass drum." That means that the closer to perpendicular to the face of the drum the mike is, the less bleed you get. It's more crucial than most people realize, especially with omnidirectional mikes like AKGs.

791. TheWizardofWhimsy - 10/9/1999 10:19:38 PM

Georgia School District "Touches Up" Famous George Washington Painting: What ís Next, The Washington Monument?

In response to a reported "touch up" by a Georgia school district to Emanuel Leutze's famous painting Washington Crossing the Delaware in fifth grade history textbooks, People For the American Way Foundation suggested specific disciplinary action for school officials. Muscogee County school district officials, worried that Washington's watch, lying across his right thigh, might look to some fifth grader like the General's genitalia, used paint brushes to touch up the page in over 2,300 books.

"Kids are disciplined for defacing school textbooks, so let's make the punishment fit the school officials' crime," said Carole Shields, People For the American Way Foundation President. "The superintendent should be kept after school to write on the blackboard 100 times: I WILL NOT DEFACE PUBLIC PROPERTY, I WILL NOT DEFACE PUBLIC PROPERTY."

According to yesterday's Atlanta Journal Constitution, teacher aides spent nearly two weeks painting over the offending watch because of how fifth grade students might react. "While Kansas is censoring evolution out of the state's science standards, this Georgia school district is going for a new low in censorship by taking out what isn't there just in case someone might imagine it is. By this standard, the school district could end up with nothing left to teach," said Shields.

School officials in some Cobb County schools went one step further in their censorship of the same painting. They ripped the page right out of the textbooks.

792. PsychProf - 10/9/1999 10:56:41 PM

Looks like something gonadal, but could use a little dung to enhance the effect.

793. pseudoerasmus - 10/10/1999 3:40:04 AM

Dulcet Wabbit: Here is a Buddhist fresco with European figures from one of the caves in Bezkeklik, outside Turpan in the Xinjiang province of China. This is somewhat similar to the frescoes I saw at the Kizil caves in Kuqa.

794. pseudoerasmus - 10/10/1999 3:48:04 AM

795. pseudoerasmus - 10/10/1999 3:49:16 AM

A Nestorian Christian fresco from yet another Bezkeklik cave, one of the oldest at the site.

796. wabbit - 10/10/1999 3:52:45 AM

PE,

Thank you, these are beautiful. Are you finding them online or are you scanning?

797. JJBiener - 10/10/1999 6:12:22 AM

Pseudo - As host of this thread, I want to express my thanks for the artwork you have been posting to this thread. I have been following the discussion and observing the art, and even though I don't have an intelligent comment, I have been enjoying it greatly.

Please keep it up.

798. JJBiener - 10/10/1999 7:16:36 AM

Eric - Thanks for the response. Here is a little more info on our set up.

We are recording in a fairly large basement toom (15' x 25') with acoustic foam on the walls and ceiling. We can get good volume on the vocal mics without them feeding back. The room is small enough that we do not need monitors.

The Mackie looks like this

1 - vocal mic (background)
2 - vocal mic (lead)
3 - vocal mic (background)
4 - vocal mic (Congas)
5,6 - Main keyboard (Alesis QS7.1)
7,8 - Sound Module (Roland JV-880)
9,10 - Sound Module (Kurzweil Micro-Piano)
11,12 - Unused

The 414 looks like this

1 - Mackie output
2 - Bass (direct connect from amp)
3 - Mic positioned in front of drums
4 - Guitar (direct connect from amp)

Everything sounds reasonable execpt the vocals, lead especially. They sound alright through the PA unless the lead singer gets right up on the mic, then it distorts. Going into the 414, the vocal distorts immediately. I know the trim control on the Mackie is set above 0. The first thing I will try is to set to 0. I should have tried it before but the fact that the PA wasn't distorting threw me.

If that doesn't work, I will try the other gain stages. There isn't much on the 414 to tweak. The inputs are both line and mic compatible. They have a preamp to boost mic signals, but since I have line levels coming out of the Mackie, I have those set to 0 (except the mic on #3 for drums).

If all else fails, I will record in two passes, instruments first, then vocals. Either that or I will break down and pick up a Shure SM-58. Check back on Thursday and I will let you know how it went. Thanks for the help.

799. EricCartman - 10/10/1999 8:27:42 AM

JJ:

Setting the trim control at 0 is not an absolute; the main benchmark is what the clip lights on the Mackie and the 414 are doing. If they're red-lining even though the trim's at 0, you might have to turn it down a bit more.

So you have a total of 5 mikes going at once while you're recording? You may want to experiment a bit with placement; the main thing is being sure that none of the other mikes are picking up the drums.

I'll check back Thursday and see how it goes for you.

800. JudithAtHome - 10/10/1999 6:08:43 PM

Wizard:

Thanks for that bit of lunacy...I wonder if the child who saw more than a watch fob was Bob Barrs? Too young to be Newts...

801. Rossi - 10/10/1999 8:35:48 PM

Oh, maybe I could sell my Shure 58A Beta here? excellent condition.
Plus some mini-disks with lots of classic rock and pop orchestration sequences, a la "minus one" (voice or a solo instrument). Things like "Comfortably Numb", "Help", "Europa". Only the best quality.

802. JJBiener - 10/10/1999 11:43:36 PM

Rossi - Using the Mote to sell things is a violation of the Rules of Engagement. Please move any transactions off line, please.

Thank you.

803. Rossi - 10/11/1999 12:10:04 AM

Oh, I see.

OK. POTENTIAL BUYERS OF MY SM-58A BETA FOR SALE.


never mind.

804. theDiva - 10/11/1999 5:25:34 PM

Milt Jackson died on Saturday.....

NEW YORK (AP) - Milt Jackson, a jazz vibraphonist who made the instrument sing like the human voice as a longtime member of the Modern Jazz Quartet, died Saturday of liver cancer. He was 76.

Jackson was considered one of the best improvisers in jazz and an outstanding blues player.

Jackson originally was a singer in a Detroit gospel quartet. In the 1940s, he created a new sound by slowing the motor on his Deagan Vibraharp's oscillator to a third of the speed of Lionel Hampton's. The result was a warm, smoky sound with a vibrato approximating his own singing.

Jackson's style came from Charlie Parker, whose rhythmic traits he adopted. He was one of the first bona fide be-bop vibraphone musicians, and he became a jewel in Dizzy Gillespie's band. He recorded be-bop classics with the band, such as ``A Night in Tunisia,'' ``Anthropology'' and ``Two Bass Hit.''

In 1951, Jackson teamed with Thelonius Monk, recording ``Criss Cross'' and ``Straight, No Chaser,'' among others.

When a pianist in Gillespie's band, John Lewis, decided to form a new group, one going beyond soloists with a rhythm section, Jackson signed on. In 1952, the Modern Jazz Quartet was born.

805. JayAckroyd - 10/12/1999 12:26:30 AM

Maurizio Pollini has put together an amazing program over the next two years that will be performed at Carnegie Hall. Sunday's was typical:

Schoenberg's 3 piano pieces, Opus 11
Beethoven's Hammerklavier, Piano Sonata 29
Stockhausen's Variations X

It was, as always, a remarkable performance. Future programs combine pre 20th century works with modernist elements with some of the good stuff from the 20th century.

It's well worth looking into.

Something struck me while we were standing around clapping before the first encore; he is really, really popular here in New York. Standing ovations, bravos, excited looks all round. Is this true elsewhere? Has anyone seen him perform in some venue, somewhere else.

806. T. Tallis - 10/12/1999 1:01:16 AM

JayAckroyd:

Do you perchance mean Stockhausen's Klavierstucke X? I don't know of any Variations in the Stockhausen ouevre.

807. pseudoerasmus - 10/12/1999 11:56:48 AM

Some Persian art, this from the Mongol Timurid period based in Shiraz.

808. pseudoerasmus - 10/12/1999 11:58:35 AM

"Twentieth century music is like paedophilia. No matter how persuasively and persistently its champions urge their cause, it will never be accepted by the public at large, who will continue to regard it with incomprehension, outrage and repugnance." -- Kingsley Amis in an opinion about Schoenberg (not that Amis really knew what he was talking about, but the remark is amusing...)

809. JayAckroyd - 10/12/1999 3:39:22 PM

Do you perchance mean Stockhausen's Klavierstucke X? I don't know of any Variations in the Stockhausen ouevre.

Yes. Thanks.

810. T. Tallis - 10/12/1999 9:39:45 PM

Difficult piece. How was the performance?

pseudoerasmus:

I've heard that quote before, in a somewhat bastardized form ("20th C. music is like paedophilia in that the public will always be disgusted by its afficionadoes' unfailing obsession" or something like that). Didn't realize it was Amis. And, yes, it is amusing, if only because it's correct.

811. JJBiener - 10/13/1999 9:35:09 PM

Here is a quick update on the recording discussion that we were having earlier in the week.

Adjusting the trim on the Mackie's preamps helped but did not complete solve the problem. I tried playing with the various gain stages, EQ, and used a variety of outputs and inputs between the Mackie and the Tascam, but none of the combinations produced adequate results. The singer brought a new mic (Shure SM-57 (an anniversary present from his wife)) which helped, but again did not eliminate the distortion.

Towards the end of the evening, I finally came up with an acceptable solution. The technique I used did not capture the output of the PA perfectly, but it is acceptable for demo purposes. There is virtually no distortion, and it captures the feel of a live performance. The solution required a bit of non-linear thinking and a reliance on traditional practices.

Based on the above description, does anyone know the technique I used?

812. theDiva - 10/13/1999 9:36:01 PM

You pitched him low and away once the count was 3-2.










oops, wrong thread. Sorry.

813. TheWizardofWhimsy - 10/14/1999 4:14:53 PM

You bet Judith.

P.S. In Atlanta’s Afro-American community the rumor is that Bob Barr is “passin’ fo white!”

814. JudithAtHome - 10/14/1999 6:39:14 PM

Wizard:

I'm not surprised; he's passing as a politician, too.

815. Cellar Door - 10/14/1999 6:43:58 PM

Yep. Ol' Bob Barr's got "a touch of the tarbrush" -- as the saying goes.

816. janjon - 10/14/1999 6:45:36 PM

Whatever else he is or does, he really digs whipped cream, though.

Definitely the wrong thread, but he's gotta rank right up there as one of the biggest assholes around.

pseudoerasmus - the art you are putting up is simply outstanding. IF I had to use only one word to describe it collectively, it would be "elegant."

817. joezan - 10/17/1999 2:07:00 AM

A couple of weeks ago, I was reading a piece in Time about Leonardo da Vinci's stallion statue which was recently unveiled in Milan.

818. joezan - 10/17/1999 2:32:09 AM

BTW, the Meijer Gardens, which were just completed a couple of years ago, include one of the finest statue gardens in the midwest..

Here's the site.

819. JudithAtHome - 10/17/1999 4:50:00 PM

joezan:

I hope you wrote a scathing letter to the editor; these people can afford fact checkers.

820. robertjayb - 10/17/1999 5:39:28 PM

.
CNN says Ella Mae Morse is dead at 75...

Ella Mae Morse
Active decade: 40s
Born 09/12/1924 in Mansfield, TX
Genre - VOCAL


One of the most talented and overlooked vocalists of the '40s, Ella Mae Morse blended jazz, country, pop, and R&B; at times she came remarkably close to what would be known as rock & roll. When she wasn't yet 14, Morse had her first taste of the big time, when Jimmy Dorsey's band came to Dallas for a stay at the Adolphus Hotel and she called for an audition. Unbeknownst to her, the band needed a new female vocalist. Believing that Morse was indeed 19, as she and her mother claimed, Dorsey hired her. When he received a letter from the school board declaring that he was responsible for The Morse's care, Dorsey fired her. Morse joined former Dorsey pianist Freddie Slack's band in 1942; she was only 17 when they cut "Cow Cow Boogie," which became Capitol Records' first gold single. The following year, Morse began recording solo. Although her recordings were consistently solid and sold fairly well (frequently charting better on the Black charts than on the pop charts), Morse never obtained a huge following. She retired from recording in 1957.

Stephen Thomas Erlewine, All-Music Guide

821. joezan - 10/17/1999 11:16:55 PM

Judith:

Damn skippy I wrote them - but guess what? Both times I tried to send the e-mail, it came back...because their mailbox is full!

822. robertjayb - 10/18/1999 12:42:07 AM

.
Ella Mae Morse obit:

Her 1946 recording of "House of Blue Lights" is considered influential in the evolution of rock 'n' roll. Among her other hits were "Shoo-Shoo Baby," "Mister Five by Five," "No Love, No Nothin'," "Milkman, Keep Those Bottles Quiet," "The Patty-Cake Man" and her million-selling 1952 comeback hit, "The Blacksmith Blues."

of possible interest to those of a certain age...

823. JudithAtHome - 10/21/1999 6:01:48 PM

I should probably wait to mention this but I hate seeing this thread at the bottom of the page so here goes:

On Tuesday evening, we will be going to the Bass Performance Hall here in Fort Worth to see The Tangueros, a two act "tango ballet" from Argentina retelling Julio Cortazars short story Los puertas del cielo through the erotic dance and rhythms of the tango. Five couples will perform and I plan to enjoy every dip and turn.

824. JonesAtLaw - 10/21/1999 6:07:46 PM

Judith- I spoke with a friend at a class reunion the other day and he was raving about an annual dance festival in that city near Fort Worth. He said that the dance runs the gammut from folk dance to modern, and that the festival is really a wonderful chance for someone who knows little of dance to get aquainted. Trusting in your impeccable taste, should I try to go see my friend when this is going on?

825. JonesAtLaw - 10/21/1999 6:08:33 PM

is this better?

826. JudithAtHome - 10/21/1999 6:13:33 PM

Jones:

Yes and yes!

827. JudithAtHome - 10/21/1999 7:09:31 PM

Jones:

If you do come this way, please come to Fort Worth and tour Bass Hall; it is a beautiful place and acoustically perfect.

828. JJBiener - 10/23/1999 6:54:18 AM

Hello Arts and Music fans. I don't have much to say tonight, but I couldn't stand to see us at the bottom of the list.

In order to kick start the conversation, what is your favorite recording purchased in the last year and why?

829. cmboyce - 10/23/1999 7:01:04 AM

I'll say Ellington's Far East Suite. I'd only vaguely noticed the name and didn't know what it was, really, but when someone at the old shop--Marjoribanks, I think--recommended it as "the greatest jazz album ever" or something of the sort, I thought I'd try it, and now I'll say the same thing.

830. marjoribanks - 10/23/1999 7:11:09 AM

Boyce,

I did not say it is the "greatest jazz album ever." It is one of my absolute favorite albums of any type, however. I'm glad you appreciated the recommendation.

831. cmboyce - 10/23/1999 7:23:05 AM

Ah yes. I remember now. Even higher recommedation. And I agree.

Another great album I bought last spring and have not yet exhausted: "Coleman Hawkins: Picasso", a collection of cuts from sessions ranging in date from 1929-1949. Very good stuff, and not the assemblage of outtakes such an album sometimes is.

832. marjoribanks - 10/23/1999 7:33:13 AM

Boyce,

That sounds very interesting indeed, and I've never heard of it. I'll definitely check it out.

My own album purchase of the year is something no one here but I would like, the soundtrack to the movie Bombay Boys. But a close second is my reacquisition of Orchestra Baobab's 'Bamba', a phenomenally good example of Western Africa's assimilation of Cuban and other Caribbean and Latin sounds.

833. cmboyce - 10/23/1999 7:52:52 AM

I've liked the little African rock I've heard, but I don't know it at all. The only thing I can bring to mind is Prince Abu Seke Toure, or something like that. What are the high spots?

834. marjoribanks - 10/23/1999 8:02:24 AM

Ali Farka Toure is great, Boyce. I'm not an expert either but I like soukous and other liquid-sounding guitar music, which can be found in both East and West Africa.

Orchestra Baobab was a chance discovery, they're very good.

835. cmboyce - 10/23/1999 8:03:43 AM

Where are they from? Nice name.

836. marjoribanks - 10/23/1999 8:06:47 AM

Senegal.

Think African guitars and Cuban rhythms.

837. cmboyce - 10/23/1999 8:17:42 AM

Sounds great. I'll try to check 'em out.

But now I've gotta go to bed. It's been a long day after a short night. Mañana.

838. marjoribanks - 10/23/1999 8:20:10 AM

Me too, Boyce.

The great NY Yankees have kept me thrilling and up. Good night.

839. PelleNilsson - 10/24/1999 8:00:23 PM

marj

A curiosity. If you have a couple of minutes download a sample of the Indian hit song "Kya Soorat Hai", said to be the current No.5 in India but to have been in the top spot in September.

The band is the "Bombay Vikings" and its leader and song writer Neeraj Shridhar lives in a suburb north of Stockholm. The other band members are Swedes.

840. marjoribanks - 10/24/1999 8:16:43 PM

How curious, Pelle. I'll check it out this evening when I'm on a different computer. Thanks for the link.

841. glendajean - 10/26/1999 2:08:30 AM

After sitting through a rock concert last night, and realizing that I pretty much hate live rock music, I stopped off at the record store on the way home and bought Vic Dickenson, Nice Work.

Dickenson played trombone for Count Basie and numerous small groups. Traditional accoustical jazz player. Lovely cd. It was produced by John Hammond for Vanguard in 1953 & 54 and recorded in a Brooklyn Masonic hall noted for its live accoustics. The liner notes say that it was only bad for drums, and Hammond (who produced a series of records for Vanguard there) pushed brush work on the drums for a better percussion sound.

I heard on a documentary once Nat Hentoff say that Dickenson was one of his favorite jazz musicians, so I wanted to check him out.

842. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 4:28:31 PM

Glendajean - No question, Nat knows Jazz. The latest additions to my Jazz collection are Boney James Body Language and Peter White Perfect Moment. Boney James is currently in the CD player.

843. glendajean - 10/26/1999 5:03:30 PM

JJ -- I once read a review that said writing about jazz appeared to be very hit or miss. But everybody seems to think Hentoff is one of the best. He certainly loves the form and was around during those golden 50s and early 60s.

My Amazon order just came in this morning: Ella In Berlin (thanks Diva for recommending it); Louis Armstrong, The Hot Fives and Hot Sevens (another Diva cite); Benny Goodman, B.G. in Hi-Fi (a 50s recording supposedly very good); and Barbara Cook, the Café Carlyle presents Barbara Cook (A salute to Gower Champion).

844. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 5:08:01 PM

Glendajean - I know the Benny Goodman recording. My father had it on vinyl when I was a kid. As I recall it has some cool stuff on it. Swing at its finest.

845. glendajean - 10/26/1999 5:12:15 PM

JJ -- November 2 is the re-release of the 1938 Carnegie Hall concert. The 1950 release (which is what is currently being sold) had a truncated version of "Swing, Swing, Swing," completely cutting out Krupa's drum solo. Really looking forward to getting it.

Someday in the future, I hope we have a place where people can excerpt music, illustrating posts the way pictures do.

846. theDiva - 10/26/1999 5:14:51 PM

Writing about jazz has to be tough. Everything that needs to be said can be found in the music (of the true jazz musicians, at any rate), to paraphrase John Coltrane. The problem is that many today cannot hear it because this culture is so attuned to the coarse, the facile, and the shallow. A great jazz writer (such as Hentoff) can help you hearthe music without falling into musicological or sociological jargon; and his passion is always apparent.

847. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 5:35:27 PM

Glendajean - If you have a web site you can put music clips up on it and post a link. There are a number of shareware programs that will take music off of a CD and convert it to a WAV or MP3. If you have a sound card it is only a little more difficult to get music off of a tape or LP.

848. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 5:37:53 PM

Diva - I like how Hentoff captures the personalities of the people he writes about. When he describes a scene or an event I can picture it so clearly in my mind's eye I feel like I was there.

849. marjoribanks - 10/26/1999 5:49:24 PM

For Pelle.

850. PelleNilsson - 10/26/1999 7:23:08 PM

marj

Thanks for the link. It is curious is it not? Globalisation at work.

851. PelleNilsson - 10/26/1999 7:28:32 PM

JJ

WAV and MP3 are Ok but files grow big. I've mounted a very low-key campaign in other threads about the Mote getting a RealPlayer server (you know - streaming audio, no long wait for download) to which we could upload. Dusty mentioned a cost of about $150. I don't know much about it except as an end-user but perhaps it could be investigated.

852. glendajean - 10/26/1999 7:44:15 PM

Pelle -- here, here! I just discovered listening to excerpts on Amazon from potential cds that I wanted to buy. This entertained me for hours. It would be helpful to have something like that when we talk about music in this forum.

853. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 8:57:29 PM

Glendajean - Have you brought up the RealPlayer server idea in Technical? It would be up to Jay or Alistair to implement it. As treasurer, I could handle the financial end of it. I think it is worth checking out.

854. PelleNilsson - 10/26/1999 9:05:21 PM

I don't want to be bitchy or anything. Bit the RealPlayer idea is

Mine!

855. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 9:12:47 PM

Pelle - A thousand pardons. I didn't check the name on the post. My most abject and humble apologies.

856. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 9:13:39 PM

Pelle - Did you mention the idea in Technical?

857. PelleNilsson - 10/26/1999 10:03:59 PM

JJ

No I didn't. It came up rather spontaneously in a couple of conversations. I would be glad if you did.

858. JJBiener - 10/26/1999 10:25:48 PM

Pelle - I will see what I can do.

859. joezan - 10/28/1999 4:37:01 AM

Judith:

I finally managed to get an e-mail through to Time regarding their erroneous reporting on the Leonardo statue. Listen to this crap:

Dear JoeZan:

Thank you for writing in response to our October 18 Letters column box More About that Italian Stallion. As you and the over three hundred other readers who wrote to us are aware, our reference to the bronze Da Vinci horse in the Frederik Meijer Gardens as "an 8-ft. copy" of Milan's Il Cavallo was erroneous, owing to regrettably inaccurate source materials.

We're very sorry for the lapse, and for the fact that our reporting did not extend to noting Frederik Meijer's signal contribution to the Da Vinci horse project.

As the TIME staffer responsible for the line that closed the item ("What next? Another Mona Lisa in Sioux Falls?"), and a staunchly proud native of the midwest (Middletown, Ohio), this correspondent felt confidence in our traditional midwestern self-assurance and ability to take a joke. The quip was intended in the spirit of good-natured ribbing; it was certainly not meant to be malicious, and we apologize for any misunderstanding.

While we are sorry that we were unable to publish your remarks, we have circulated your letter among our editors for their careful attention.

Our thanks, again, for letting us hear from you. Best wishes.

Sincerely,


Patrick Smith
Editorial Offices

So...why can't they publish it where everyone can be enlightened? I e-mailed him again, and asked him just that.

860. JudithAtHome - 11/2/1999 5:05:45 PM

Okay, this is ridiculous....Diva, give us some jazzfacts! This thread has been resting on the bottom of the thread list long enough!!!

861. theDiva - 11/2/1999 5:07:49 PM

Yes, ma'am! Give me a few minutes.

862. theDiva - 11/2/1999 5:22:09 PM

The following is an excerpt from the excellent Red Hot Jazz Archive, built and maintained by one Scott Alexander. The site may be found here.

The music called Jazz was born sometime around 1895 in New Orleans. It combined elements of Ragtime, marching band music, and Blues. What differentiated Jazz from these earlier styles was the widespread use of improvisation, often by more than one player at a time.

Jazz represented a break from Western musical traditions, where the composer wrote a piece of music on paper and the musicians then tried their best to play exactly what was in the score. In a Jazz piece, the song is often just a starting point or frame of reference for the musicians to improvise around. The song might have been a popular ditty or blues that they didn't compose, but by the time they were finished with it they had composed a new piece that often bore little resemblance to the original song.

Many of these virtuoso musicians were not good sight readers and some could not read music at all, never the less their playing thrilled audiences and the spontaneous music they created captured a joy and sense of adventure that was an exciting and radical departure from the music of that time.

(more)

863. theDiva - 11/2/1999 5:22:39 PM

The first Jazz was played by African Americans and Creole musicians in New Orleans. The cornet player, Buddy Bolden is generally considered to be the first real Jazz musician. Other early players included Freddie Keppard, Bunk Johnson, and Clarence Williams. Although these musicians names are unknown to most people, then and now, their ideas are still being elaborated on to this day. Most of these men could not make a living with their music and were forced to work menial jobs to get by.

The second wave of New Orleans Jazz musicians like Joe "King" Oliver, Kid Ory, and Jelly Roll Morton formed small bands, that took the music of these older men and increased the complexity and dynamic of their music, as well as gaining greater commercial success. This music became know as "Hot Jazz", because of the often break neck speeds and amazing improvised polyphony that these bands produced.

A young virtuoso cornet player named Louis Armstrong was discovered in New Orleans by King Oliver. Armstrong soon grew to become the greatest Jazz musician of his era and eventually one of the biggest stars in the world. The impact of Armstrong and other Jazz musicians altered the course of both popular and Classical music. African American musical styles became the dominant force in 20th century music.

864. JJBiener - 11/2/1999 5:44:32 PM

Diva - I have only one complaint about the piece by Alexander. It is not true that Western music had no tradition of improvisation. There was a strong tradition among classical musicians. Opera singers for example were expected to improvise ornamentation to the basic melody provided by the composer. One of the main ways an opera singer was evaluated was on his/her ability to ornament a melody. Composers like Mozart and Beethoven were noted for their ability to improvise melodies and accompaniments.

865. JudithAtHome - 11/2/1999 5:47:07 PM

JJ:

Would that make opera singers the first to use scat? :-)

866. theDiva - 11/2/1999 5:49:08 PM

JJ

Hm. I wouldn't know, yours is the first mention I've heard of such a thing.

867. theDiva - 11/2/1999 5:51:04 PM

about the opera singers, I mean.

868. JonesAtLaw - 11/2/1999 6:24:40 PM

JJB has a point- some early classical music was written in a figured bass style where the chord structure is set out, and the musician is intended to improvise "ornamentation" for the piece. Even later pieces had suggested ornamentation but the practice died out. However, this is different from jazz in that in jazz the improvisation is the cake, so to speak and the written music the icing, while the reverse is true for figured bass and classical pieces.

869. JJBiener - 11/2/1999 6:36:58 PM

Diva - The first I heard of it was in college as a music major. They had brought in a mezzo-soprano to sing for us and answer questions. One of the female vocal students asked her about the fact that she was singing a lot of notes that were not in the score. That is when the singer explained about ornamentation and improvisation. It is something that is not stressed in most classical studies. The emphasis is more on interpretation rather than ornamentation of improvisation.

870. theDiva - 11/2/1999 6:39:15 PM

We as gospel singers do that. Interesting.....that site has a link to the author's e-mail, maybe you can point this out to him.

871. glendajean - 11/2/1999 7:45:35 PM

Thanks, Diva, for the info. I've been listening to Armstrong's Hot Five and Hot Seven this past week. Has a strong blues element. Jazz is the only recorded music I listen to that was produced in the 20s. I've heard early recordings of opera singers, but don't listen to any. I do listen to the Swedish tenor who died in the early 60s, Bjorling? But not really early stuff.

872. JudithAtHome - 11/2/1999 7:49:00 PM

I love my Carouso tapes, even the scratchiness is intact.

873. JJBiener - 11/2/1999 11:58:19 PM

Judith - There is software available that will remove the clicks and pops from vintage recordings and correct some of the sonic deficiencies of the medium. Then you can transfer them on to a CD and preserve them. There is a effort at the Library of Congress to preserve old recordings because material they were recorded on is now deteriorating and in a few years will no longer be viable.

874. JonesAtLaw - 11/3/1999 12:11:42 AM

JJB- what is that software called? Can it be used on merely mishandled lp's? I'd love to get my hands on it, I have a collection of 100 or so old lp's many of which are not on CD that I would love to transfer. Does it take much know-how?

875. JJBiener - 11/3/1999 12:33:40 AM

Jones - I can't remember the name of the software off-hand. I will look for it and post it here when I find it. I thought I read about it on Harmony Central's web site, but I can't find the article now. I am sure it won't be too hard to find.

876. JJBiener - 11/3/1999 4:53:30 AM

Jones - Here is a link to several programs that can help clean up vinyl recordings. If you decide to use any of them I would be curious to hear your opinion of how effective they are.

877. robertjayb - 11/3/1999 5:37:01 AM

.
I'm enjoying skimming through this piece in Commentary Online, Masterpieces of Jazz: A critical Guide. It is the first of a three-part series and covers recordings through 1937.

878. cmboyce - 11/3/1999 7:35:22 AM

Yes, most enjoyable. I read that the other night and promptly ordered several of the discs, which should be arriving soon. Then, I'll see whether I'll accept his assessments for later periods ;-)

I believe the author, Terry Teachout, is a respected classical music critic. Does anyone know anything about him?

879. theDiva - 11/3/1999 2:51:07 PM

I have a lot of problems with that article. I wish had more time to dissect it, but I have to prepare for a meeting.

Quick comments:

Who is this individual to state that Ellington was given disproportionate representation in the Smithsonian Collection? And to state that Marsalis' Jazz @ Lincoln Center is marred by poor scholarship and historical illiteracy?

And why is he dragging the racial element into this? And not to include jazz singers as part of the discussion, but rather as a tradition in american popular singing?

My blood pressure is up. What an ignoramus.

880. theDiva - 11/3/1999 5:06:21 PM

Hereis a listing of jazz recordings issued by the Smithsonian. As you can plainly see, it is large and rather diverse. It is absurd for Teachout to focus on a single release, compiled in 1973, as a means of assessing and questioning the 'scholarship' of the Smithsonian. What does it say about his scholarship that he can't even be bothered to do some simple fact-checking?

881. theDiva - 11/3/1999 5:20:13 PM

Furthermore, to insist on separating the work of jazz singers from the body of jazz is just ludicrous. There is no justification for it any more than there'd be justification for separating out the work of pianists. Any decent bio of, say, Billie Holiday will include a discussion of how her singing influenced countless jazz instrumentalists AND vocalists.

Which brings me to his assertion that there is yet to be written a 'scholarly' bio of any jazz figure. Granted, I cannot imagine what he means by 'scholarly'....but I can think of several excellent jazz bios, sitting on my shelves at home, which explore the life and work of the artist.

There is a Eurocentric slant to this entire article which just bugs the hell out of me.

Could you tell?

882. theDiva - 11/3/1999 10:03:00 PM

There is an excellent BBS called Jazz Corner, frequented by working jazz musicians, writers, filmmakers and devotees far more articulate and learned than I. I lurk frequently and rarely post; however, the Teachout article moved me to create a thread dedicated to the topic.

Here is the thread.

883. JJBiener - 11/3/1999 10:12:05 PM

Diva - I was about to go out and read that article, but now I see there is no point. It sounds like the man is a jazz illiterate. I will check out the Jazz Corner. It sounds interesting.

884. theDiva - 11/3/1999 10:15:08 PM

JJ

Nonono, read it, really. Some of the selections he makes are worthwhile and interesting.

885. JJBiener - 11/3/1999 11:45:03 PM

It is SOOOO hard to keep a band together. We finally start clicking as a five-piece, have a couple of gigs, then the drummer flakes out on us. I just hate breaking in a new guy.

886. Cellar Door - 11/4/1999 7:00:23 AM

Terry Teachout writes for "Commentary" magazine. He'sthe onlu non-toxic thing between its covers.

And speaking of Non-toxicity --

Be sure to visit this site -- especially you, Diva.

887. cigarlaw - 11/4/1999 8:10:57 AM

while in cuba, i met several musicians and became good frieds with a group called '5 for you' in english or,'cinco pa ti'in spanish. they are cutting an album for EMI as you read this. buy it, they are terrific

888. RosettaStone - 11/4/1999 3:54:53 PM

Diva: I couldn't find my Joni Mitchell "Mingus" album. It might have been sold at a garage sale years back. What I remember is in 1977 she was working with Herbie Hancock's group Weather Report, and (my favorite) bassist Jaco Pastorious. According to www.jonimitchell.com, Mitchell was contacted by bass player, composer and jazz great, Charles Mingus.

"Mingus thought she was a gutsy artist with a sense of adventure, and he wanted Joni to consider working with him on an adaption of T.S. Eliot's 'Four Quartets.' He wanted her to edit down the text, and he'd write a score for full orchestra, bass and guitar, and alternate her singing with a narrator reading excerpts from the text. Joni thought the idea was quite original, but after reading Eliot's work, she nixed the project, saying that she'd much rather condense the Bible. A few weeks later, Mingus called and told her he'd written six melodies especially for her, and he wanted her to write lyrics to the tunes."

"Joni had never worked musically FOR someone else before, but she accepted the challenge. Mingus had the disease known as Lou Gehrig's disease and was in a wheelchair by the time that he and Joni met. In downbeat magazine, she says of their first meeting. 'I went out to visit him, and I liked him immediately. He was devilishly challenging...I never knew him when he was well and I never heard him play live; he was paralyzed then.'"

"Mingus died in 1979 before the album was finished, but he'd heard many of the lyrics written for his melodies. This last song, 'God Must Be a Boggie Man,' was written by Joni after reading the first four pages of Mingus' autobiography, 'Beneath the Underdog.' Joni continued working on the songs, finally coming up with sets of lyrics for three of the six melodies he wrote for her, plus 'Goodbye, Pork Pie Hat'....Joni included as links between the songs, bits of tapes of Charles talking about his life that his wife Sue Mingus gave her after Charles died."

889. theDiva - 11/4/1999 3:58:33 PM

Rose

Thanks for posting this. Interesting stuff....I'd never heard this before. I've always wanted to read 'Beneath the Underdog'; now I've got to go pick up a copy this weekend.

Mingus was an amazing individual. He preferred that his compositions not be referred to as jazz but rather as 'Mingus Music'.

I think I need to go listen to 'Mingus Ah Um'.

890. Rivendell - 11/4/1999 4:29:57 PM

The discussion of the Teachout article here and in the Jazz Corner is one of the most interesting things I've read in this thread. Thanks.

891. theDiva - 11/4/1999 4:33:08 PM

Riv

Wait'll you read what my dad wrote....I'll forward the e-mail to you.

892. soUPisgoodfood - 11/4/1999 8:21:14 PM

for the record... Terry Teachout is an ass. He wrote a similarly ill-founded article on the 20th Century "classical" canon a few months ago.

893. cmboyce - 11/5/1999 2:12:05 AM

"Jazz Corner" is really neat, Diva! Thanks.

894. rosettastone - 11/5/1999 7:22:19 PM

How to ruin your career, start playing jazz!

From ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY's top 100 greatest entertainers (1950-2000),
regarding Joni Mitchell being named 63:

Who knew, when Joni Mitchell was first melting folk-rock hearts with sense-of wonder songs like "Chelsea Morning," that behind the sweet soprano lay popular music's most stubborn personality, a woman who would consistently veer from the expected path?

The Canadian's late-'60s arrival came at a time when "women's songs were written by men, 99 percent of the time. They carried the old feminine values according to the masters," Mitchell, 55, remembers.

"My songs began to reveal feminine insecurities, doubts, recognition that the order was falling apart." The abundance of songs on the confessional standard-setter "Blue" led to her most successful album, 1974's "Court and Spark." And right at that commercial peak, our Lady of the Canyon took another ravine less traveled: the way of Miles and Mingus.

"I stopped playing in standard tuning, to get chords that didn't sound like the chords everybody else was playing. In the same way that Van Gogh searched for his own color schemes, I searched for my own harmonic voice, found it, and spent a career being dismissed as too jazzy."

Resistance only stiffened her resolve. "Black influence on my work seemed to offend young white critics," she laughs. "When "Hejira" [1976] was trashed in America, I thought, there's nothing to do except experiment more."

895. rasheed - 11/5/1999 9:41:13 PM

The real lesson of that article appears to be if you want to stay successful, be predictable. Is that what you endorse, Ms. Stone? And then there are some of us who don't regard "Entertainment Weekly" as a final authority.

896. joezan - 11/5/1999 11:36:14 PM

Court And Spark...now that was an album!

I haven't even thought about it in years. How do things like this happen?

(Now I gotta go see if I remember where I put that CD....)

897. arkymalarky - 11/6/1999 1:04:14 AM

My husband's alltime favorite is Miles of Aisles.

898. JJBiener - 11/6/1999 1:29:23 AM

Rasheed - We meet again.

The real lesson of that article appears to be if you want to stay successful, be predictable.

This is unfortunately true. We live in a Backstreet Boys/Britanny Spears world. As a musician/composer and a fan of Jazz, Blues and many other genres, I desperately wish it were otherwise.

Is that what you endorse, Ms. Stone?

I didn't get that impression. BTW, I think it is Mr. Stone.

899. JJBiener - 11/6/1999 1:33:52 AM

I saw Joni Mitchell in 1979. She was touring with probably the best backup band around. She Pat Metheney on guitar, Jaco Pastorius on bass, Patrick Moraz on keys, and Steve Gadd on drums. To say the show was spectacular doesn't do it justice.

900. joezan - 11/6/1999 6:51:36 AM

JJ:

That is indeed a formidable lineup. However, in '79 Lee Ritenour had the best backup going - hisbadself on guitars, Abe Laboriel on bass, Steve Jordan on drums, and Alex Acuna on percussion. I saw them twice - at The Bottom Line in NYC, and at My Fathers Place in Roslyn, LI.

I still have a vein thumping in my temple from those shows...

901. PelleNilsson - 11/6/1999 5:03:05 PM

Uzmakk

An idea for a book cover:

Rugged hand-laid paper of rice chaff, bamboo tailings, free-range hemp, and crystalline glacial meltwater made by wizened artisans operating out of a mist-shrouded temple hewn from living volcanic rock [...]. An impressionistic map of the South China Sea has ben dashed across these covers by molecularly reconstructed Ming Dynasty calligraphers using brushes of combed unicorn mane dipped into ink made of grinding down charcoal slabs fashioned by blind stylite monks from hand-charred fragments of the True Cross.

Bonus points for anyone who can source the above. Hint: recent book.

902. EricCartman - 11/6/1999 11:16:56 PM

JJ Message # 899:

What a phenomenal backup band that must have been; I thought only Zappa was capable of assembling that caliber of lineup.

BTW, you said your mike distortion problem of a few weeks ago worked out OK, but you never said how you solved it. I'm curious as to what you guys ended up doing. If I remember right, you were running 6 or 7 inputs into the Mackie, then out into just one track of your 4-track recorder. I was wondering how much definition that allowed all those instruments.

903. JJBiener - 11/7/1999 3:01:51 AM

Eric - BTW, you said your mike distortion problem of a few weeks ago worked out OK, but you never said how you solved it.

Uh, I cheated. We had great sound coming through the PA, but nothing I tried using a direct line would eliminate all of the distortion. My solution was to close mic the PA. I got enough signal on tape to make a decent demo. It meant that the levels on the mics and the keys had to be set before recording, but we were doing that anyway.

I haven't done much since I came up with that solution because we had to prep for a gig. Then after the gig our drummer flaked out on us and we are in the process of replacing him. It is going to be a few weeks before we will have a new drummer and get him up to speed. Then we can work on recording again.

When we get closer, I am going to contact Mackie to see if they have any suggestions. I would prefer going direct but will use the mic trick if I can't.

904. EricCartman - 11/7/1999 7:55:53 AM

JJ:

No such thing as cheating. Whatever works, works. It's not a bad idea anyway; it's always good to have your actual live sound on tape for reference. It may not be as clean as you'd like your demo, but it never is.

I can sympathize with the flaky band-member syndrome. That's what finally made me decide to quit my last band, and just do it for fun by myself. It helps that I was able to amass a lot of equipment -- I was single at the time, and put all the money I made back into equipment.

One of the best investments I made was getting a digital 8-track. The prices are coming down (this one, from Roland, is supposed to be the best for the price). I have a Fostex DMT-8VL, which I don't know if they make anymore, but they're not too difficult to learn, and you get a sound you can work with much more easily. About the only thing you can't do on a digital is backwards guitar stuff. Something to consider if you guys get a lot of gigs and have the budget.

Good drummers are hard to find (and keep). Does your keyboard (Alesis, right?) have any percussion stuff on it that you can use, just for writing and studio recording? A friend of mine has this Zoom drum machine. Very good sounds on it, easy to program, and not all that expensive for the quality.

905. CalGal - 11/7/1999 6:52:41 PM

Incidentally, did anyone read that Van Halen's lead singer quit again? I wish they'd bring Sammy back, but I have a feeling that Eddie is fed up with temperamental prima donna sorts.

906. JudithAtHome - 11/7/1999 7:01:36 PM

Pelle:

This is just a joke answer to your bookcover question: Griffen and Sabine .

907. JJBiener - 11/7/1999 7:24:40 PM

Eric - I have heard nothing but good things about the Roland. I have toyed with the idea of getting one but haven't been able to justfy the expense.

The Alesis has some good drum sounds. It has the same samples they used on their DM5. I have been using them on my demo tapes.

Do you have any recordings you would like to share with your friends in the Mote?

908. PelleNilsson - 11/7/1999 7:33:13 PM

Judith

No. I don't know that one, but I would the one I refer to is more recent. And it has been discussed in the Mote, which is why I bought it.

909. CharlieL - 11/7/1999 7:52:29 PM

JJ, I use a Mackie 1604VLZ mixer for the band, and have used it to make "PA Tapes" directly out of the "Tape Out" jacks, and have never experienced the type of distortion you have been talking about.

Could your mixer have a blown preamp component?

910. JJBiener - 11/7/1999 8:05:14 PM

Chuck - If the Mackie has a blown preamp component, I have not be able to isolate it. The tape outs gave me the least disortion, i.e. only on the dynamic peaks. The control room outs and the aux sends gave considerably more distortion. It probably wouldn't hurt to get it checked out by a Mackie Service Rep. What is odd is that the problem really only shows up going to the Tascam. The same output doesn't distort going to the PA amp.

BTW, what experience do you have with PA speakers? When the drummer left he took his speakers with him. I am looking for something in the $300 per range. I would like to use them as mains for clubs then be able to use them as monitors if we move up to bigger gigs. Any suggestions?

911. JJBiener - 11/7/1999 8:06:25 PM

Chuck - BTW, How did the recording go? When will we be able to get a copy of the final product?

912. cmboyce - 11/8/1999 2:15:10 AM

Message # 901: I've got it, Pelle! It must be Governing the Commons! Right?

913. PelleNilsson - 11/8/1999 8:31:16 AM

cm

Be serious! Here is a superhint. The cover is found on the business plan for a company called Epiphyte(2).

914. EricCartman - 11/8/1999 8:33:14 AM

Cal Message # 905:

According to the Mancow radio show this morning (which is almost as reliable a source as Drudge), Hagar has already pre-emptively declined to return, and Roth has been cagey and non-responsive when asked by writers about a possible return. No one from the VH camp has said anything about anyone, but rumor has it that the front-runner to replace Cherone is (drum roll please)

.

.

.

.

.

.

former Skid Row singer Sebastian Bach. I am not making this up.

JJ Message # 907:

I haven't had the time or inclination in quite a while to really get anything done. At the end of 1997, I was heading into the later stages of a project I was working on. I had about 7 or 8 vocal songs, and 7 or 8 instrumentals, and had most all the backing tracks done (drums/bass/keys). A couple of weeks into '98, my house got flooded, so all my equipment was packed up for about 4 months while the house was repaired.

In the meantime, I got a PC, and have been focusing on getting proficient at using it, to the detriment of the music. I've tried to get back to the '97 project, but haven't been able to set aside enough time for it. I still play a bit, and every once in a while I'll learn a short classical guitar piece and record that, just for the hell of it. But no original stuff lately. It takes me very little time to learn other people's stuff, but I get incredibly anal about my own stuff. I've literally spent weeks just programming drums for one song.

It'll happen eventually, and when it does, I'll be sure to upload it, and encourage all bouquets and brickbats.

915. RosettaStone - 11/8/1999 3:08:17 PM

A MILLENNIAL HIT PARADE

According to Gail Collins, NYTimes columnist, here are the top ten tunes of the millennium:

"Ave Maria"
Brahms' "Lullaby"
"La Donna e Mobile"
"Greensleeves"
"Happy Birthday"
"La Marseillais"
"A Mighty Fortess is Our God"
"L'Homme Arme"
"Oh! Susanna"
"Louie, Louie"

"L'Homme Arme", by the way, is a French folk tune that was used as the theme for medieval and Renaisance mass settings.

Runner-ups include: "Rockabye, Baby"; "Yankee Doodle"; "Amazing Grace"; "Rock of Ages"; "Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star"; "Auld Lang Syne"; Mendelssohn's "Wedding March"; "La Cucaracha"; "After the Ball"; "White Christmas"; "Funiculi, Funicula" "Silent Night"; "Stairway to Heaven," and the first four notes of Beethoven's Fifth.

916. Schehezarade - 11/8/1999 9:13:42 PM

Sebastian Bach, the new front-man for Van Halen? I can't even imagine it.

917. Schehezarade - 11/8/1999 9:15:00 PM

RosettaStone

Where's Neil Diamond's "America?"

918. SpenceMirrlees - 11/9/1999 10:13:57 AM

Which Ave Maria?

So glad to see only 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th made it, but we get all 9 monotonous minutes of Stairway.

919. RosettaStone - 11/9/1999 4:00:50 PM

Schehezarade:

Sad to say, but Diamond's "America" has never been able to recover from it's unfortunate connection with Governor Michael Dukakis's 1988 campaign.


BTW, what in the heck does your name mean? I had to check the spelling twice. Don't tell me that you're another "European."

920. Schehezarade - 11/9/1999 4:39:01 PM

RosettaStone

My moniker has a deliberate misspelling in it. My schoolmate and I read Arabian Nights when we were 12, and choose this spelling (and pronunciation).

Also, where's Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture in the list? This Gail Collins has no taste.

921. JJBiener - 11/9/1999 5:18:01 PM

Eric - I finished a new song the night before last. The words were written by a guy I met on the internet named Toby Darling. I put together a scratch recording on my Tascam, but I still need to do a full demo.

Last night I went out and spent money. When our drummer departed, he took his PA speakers with him. I replaced them last night. I bought a pair of EV Eliminators for $400 each. We had JBL 425's but I think the EVs sound better. They have a better frequency response especially on the high end. The JBLs were good on the low end, but their mids and highs were a little weak. The other thing that is nice about the EVs is that they have matching subs if we ever need to expand.

We have practice scheduled for Friday with a new drummer. The guy has 20 years in and has played with the guitar player and bass player before. I have high hopes.

922. JJBiener - 11/9/1999 5:19:57 PM

Rosie - I think is Gail Collins is on serious drugs. I like "Louie, Louie", but #10 for the millennium? I don't think so.

923. Cellar Door - 11/9/1999 5:48:02 PM

For me it's #1.

924. JJBiener - 11/9/1999 5:55:15 PM

Cellar - Why doesn't that surprise me?

925. rosettastone - 11/10/1999 2:41:03 AM

JJ: Although Gail Collins, NYTimes' latest affirmative-action babe and Maureen Dowd wantabe, shared the list in her most recent column, the millennial hit parade comes from her music writer friends--John Rockwell and Jon Pareles of the Times and Robert Christgau of The Village Voice.

She writes: "I suspect the explanation for "Louie, Louie" is that the list was put together at the end of a very long party. It was made up quite a while ago, which accounts for the absence of "The Macarena" and that thing from "Titanic."

In other words, there was too much powder at the shindig and it's not to be taken seriously.

926. robertjayb - 11/10/1999 3:42:34 AM

.



Benny Goodman believed in great jazz players, no matter their color. A live 1938 double CD captures one of the ambassador's finest moments.

927. Schehezarade - 11/10/1999 9:50:47 PM

A millennial party WITHOUT the Macarena? For shame!

928. Lucky - 11/10/1999 10:01:23 PM

The Macarena? Puleeaze. As a professional musician, that one is right up there with "Stairway to Heab'n," "Pianer Man," "Rocky Top," and "Achy Breaky Heart" as some of the most requested songs that one continually refuses to play, even when $20 bills accompany the requests.

929. JJBiener - 11/10/1999 10:45:55 PM

Lucky - Yeah, yeah. But I still like Rocky Top. Besides, you left off Feelings and You Light Up My Life. Or maybe you didn't do the piano circuit.

930. Angel-Five - 11/10/1999 10:54:27 PM

Sebastian Bach is a drugged freak, but he's got the pipes. It's just that Van Halen is over and done with. I think they blew the last of their originality when Hagar joined the band and they used the new chemistry to record 5150.

931. CalGal - 11/10/1999 11:01:38 PM

I disagree, but I think that the dividing line on Van Halen is very clear and has to do with one's opinion of David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar. Personally, I think they were both terrific, and they both benefited from a great songwriter who knows how to tailor a tune to his lead singer.

Consequently, I don't think they fell off at all during the Hagar years--I think some of their best songs come from that era.

I think Eddie--and to a lesser extent Alex and Michael Anthony--are getting fed up with temperamental leads. Besides, they've been producing original, mainstream music for over 20 years. I can't think of any other band who has been in operation steadily for that long--never having broke up or gone through any serious slump. They've got to be a bit tired.

932. RosettaStone - 11/10/1999 11:05:32 PM

In today's NYTimes, this letter to the editor was published concerning the millennial high notes:

Gail Collins' "Millennial Hit Parade" (column, Nov. 9) was witty and insightful. And although it is difficult to quibble with any Top 10 list that includes "Louie, Louie," the first song learned by many aspiring rock guitarists, I was surprised at some hardy perennials that missed the cut.

As a substitute for "La Marseillaise," I would suggest any one of the following: any Mozart overture (but particularly "Figaro"), Pachelbel's "Canon in D" (overplayed for a reason), Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture" or the Beatles' "I Want to Hold Your Hand" (the most imitated song of the last 35 years, whose recognizable start followed by two fast verses, a slow verse, a reprise and a bang-up finish make it sound like Mozart to me).---Christopher Graham, Bronxville, NY

933. Schehezarade - 11/11/1999 1:19:30 PM

CalGal


I believe it is *Eddie's* temper problem that is causing rifts within the band. The man has an enormous ego. Thinking about Sebastian Bach as their new front-man, still cracks me up. Can you picture "Youth Gone Wild" with a solo by either of the Van Halen bro's? Or how shrill "Beautiful Girls" will sound with S.B.?
Too weird.

934. theDiva - 11/11/1999 2:43:16 PM

JJ

WRT your #929.....

Joe Venuti, jazz violinist and noted curmudgeon, was at a gig a number of years ago....feeling expansive, he invited the audience to make requests.

A woman shouted out above the noise, "Play Feelings!"

"Feelings?" replied Venuti, "That's the worst goddamn song I ever heard. That's it, you had your chance!" and launched into Sweet Georgia Brown.

935. JJBiener - 11/11/1999 5:24:20 PM

Diva - Great story.

BTW, can you believe these guys are discussing Van Halen as if it were serious music?

936. theDiva - 11/11/1999 5:30:34 PM

JJ

I only ridicule Riv's taste in music, as is proper given my standing as his jazz guru. Otherwise I keep my thoughts to myself.

937. CalGal - 11/11/1999 6:37:02 PM

Shazam,

Eddie is getting fed up, I believe. He's allowed the ego.

938. JJBiener - 11/11/1999 7:38:46 PM

CalGal - I am sure he is just caving to pressure from Valerie.

939. CalGal - 11/11/1999 7:45:28 PM

I think Valerie's happy if he keeps his drinking to a manageable level, and doesn't ask for much more.

Still, I believe it's the longest marriage in rock n roll history, which is no small feat.

940. JJBiener - 11/11/1999 8:05:07 PM

Cal - Still, I believe it's the longest marriage in rock n roll history, which is no small feat.

Maybe of our generation. Don't forget Paul &Linda, and Ringo & Barbara.

941. CalGal - 11/11/1999 8:20:07 PM

Lordy, you're right. I was only thinking of 70s bands for no good reason I can think of. But even if you add in those two--hell, add in John Lennon, who'd probably still be hooked to Yoko if he hadn't been killed--the list of lengthy marriages in rock history is a short one.

942. RosettaStone - 11/11/1999 8:30:01 PM

My favorites are Steve and Eddie. Frank Sinatra kept them together.

That phrase reminds me of another long-lasting marriage--The Captain and Toenail

943. JJBiener - 11/11/1999 8:41:11 PM

Rosie - C&T aren't really musicians per se anymore. He's producing other artists and she was on Broadway the last time I checked.

944. theDiva - 11/11/1999 8:57:16 PM

Diz and his wife were married for over 50 years. He carried a copy of their marriage certificate wherever he went.

945. CalGal - 11/12/1999 12:29:23 AM

Ahem.

I did say rock n roll. But then, long marriages are rare for any artist.

946. EricCartman - 11/12/1999 7:17:30 AM

Sebastian Bach is an excellent singer, and he's even better live. But I don't think he'd be well-suited for Van Halen Mark IV (or whatever they'll call it); Eddie will begin losing what's left of his hard-rock chops as he muses on whether he wants to be the next Cole Porter or Roger Waters. Either way, that leaves Bach's leather-lunged singing style out of the equation.

I don't know how many albums VH still owe on their contract, but it's probably just one, maybe two. If one, they'll bring in someone on the cheap and just put one out to fulfill their obligation. If two, they'll do the same thing, then release another moribund "greatest hits" collection. Or they might not owe any, in which case I bet they break up within the next six months so Eddie can do his own projects.


Still, I believe [Eddie VH and Valerie Bertinelli] the longest marriage in rock n roll history, which is no small feat.

I'm pretty sure Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne have been together longer, but it's about the same length of time, either way. Considering Ozzy is far nuttier, and had far worse substance abuse problems, each year must be like ten for that poor woman.


BTW, can you believe these guys are discussing Van Halen as if it were serious music?

I dunno, I hear Sweet Georgia Brown, I think Harlem Globetrotters; I hear Louie Louie, I think Animal House. Eddie ain't Coltrane, but he did some fairly innovative stuff (though of course, he wasn't the first, or even the fourth, to do 2-handed tapping on record).

947. EricCartman - 11/12/1999 7:23:08 AM

JJ Message # 921:

I like EVs as well, over JBLs, which are overpriced, imo. One thing I will always kick myself for: in my old band, we needed a couple of mains. A guy we knew (who was trying to join our band) had a great pair of mains, a high-end brand called Community. Instead of buying them outright myself, I lent my singer $300 so he could buy them. If I'd known how phenomenal they sounded, and that they were worth about $500-600 each, I'd have bought them myself. Amazing sound.

Good luck with your new drummer.

948. Schehezarade - 11/12/1999 5:18:34 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, our new Van Halen front-man.

949. PelleNilsson - 11/13/1999 10:47:56 PM

Many posts ago I quoted the following and asked for the source, saying it was from a recent book that has been discussed in the Mote. It is a description of a book cover.

Rugged hand-laid paper of rice chaff, bamboo tailings, free-range hemp, and crystalline glacial meltwater made by wizened artisans operating out of a mist-shrouded temple hewn from living volcanic rock [...]. An impressionistic map of the South China Sea has ben dashed across these covers by molecularly reconstructed Ming Dynasty calligraphers using brushes of combed unicorn mane dipped into ink made of grinding down charcoal slabs fashioned by blind stylite monks from hand-charred fragments of the True Cross.

Later I threw in a heavy hint:

The cover is found on the business plan for a company called Epiphyte(2).

To put the matter at rest: The cite is from Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson.

950. Uzmakk - 11/14/1999 12:01:43 AM

Biener:

There is a summer blues festival just over the mountain from me, I mentioned it somewhere on the Mote before. If you can get your fat-assed band out here I will attempt to get you a crowd of thousands just drooling to see Just Water. Can one trust ones agent?

951. Uzmakk - 11/14/1999 12:17:13 AM

Good Lord, Pelle. I have been concentrating on Igor for about a week now and have not even checked in on the Mote. Design for a book cover? Fascinating. How about this one from the files--

• Kayaking in the Timor Sea, a kayak prow headed into forty foot swells, a definite line of some kind defining the diagonal, 3 swells represented, for a journey not yet taken.

952. Uzmakk - 11/14/1999 12:47:45 AM

Review of Bad Love by Randy Newman

In a time when every song writer is sounding like every other songwriter Randy Newman comes through again. "This is my country, this is the world I understand". And his use of triplicates continues, "that's not what we're talkin' about, that's not what we're talkin'about, that's not what we're talkin about, but I will tell you this...." Phrasing, perfect. Fan's of Gun's Germs and Steel will love Great Nations of Europe" There is more, but you get the idea........A must listen.

953. Uzmakk - 11/14/1999 2:02:55 PM

Oh, sorry, not a "cite" but a book. One must read carefully.

954. glendajean - 11/14/1999 6:15:59 PM

Sweet Diva,

I listened to Monk's Straight, No Chaser walking to work this morning. I want to see the film again. What an enjoyable cd.

Am I nuts or are there numbers from it and Davis' King of Blue that are covered in the movie Round Midnight?

I also got a re-release of a 1959 Chet Baker album called Chet. One can almost ice skate around Baker's notes (Davis, too, for that matter), but they so delightfully moody and piercing.

Your ever faithful disciple, gj

955. glendajean - 11/14/1999 6:20:19 PM

I am totally ready to go back to the 50s, btw, the decade of my birth. I've always associated it with 50s rock and roll, and I've never been much of a rock fan.

But bebop is giving me a much different perspective of the era.

956. theDiva - 11/14/1999 6:20:40 PM

Glenda

Okay, so this is really weird. I brought Straight, No Chaser to work with me today. Not sure about the K of B/Round Midnight thing.....certainly they are covering roughly the same period musically. The Baker album sounds nice.

We took Gracie to Blues Alley last Wednesday for her birthday....saw a lively group called the Uptown Vocal Jazz Quartet. They were entertaining and occasionally quite brilliant....did some classics in the vocalese style, some LHR, some originals.

957. theDiva - 11/14/1999 6:21:37 PM

Wouldn't you love to teleport back to 1953, and stroll along W. 52nd St.?

958. JudithAtHome - 11/14/1999 6:23:32 PM

Uzmakk:

It was the peach orchid with the side-slit skit.

959. glendajean - 11/14/1999 6:25:39 PM

Diva, that is too weird. You're not wearing a flannel shirt today, too, are you?

960. theDiva - 11/14/1999 6:28:08 PM

Red wool cableknit mock turtleneck and gray flannel trousers. Really close, though.

961. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 6:29:29 PM

Eric - We used the new EV's at practice on Friday. They sound very cool. Excellent frequency response across the spectrum providing an very clean, clear sound. Our old JBLs were much too heavy on the low end and weak on the mids and highs. On top of that the EVs weigh 30 lbs less.

I think the new drummer is going to work out. It took a few songs to hit our groove, but once we did we really clicked. He can also sing high harmony, so we are definitely ending up with a net gain.

The only thing left is to replace our web site. The drummer took down our old site last week.

962. glendajean - 11/14/1999 6:31:24 PM

Diva -- I'd ask for your hand in marriage except that you're already happily married and I am a gay man in a good relationship and it wouldn't work, ah, never mind.

Any Coltrane suggestions for my library?

963. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 6:34:50 PM

Uzmakk - The blues festival sounds like fun. Would it pay enough to justify the road trip?

We could bill it as Just Water World Tour 2000.

964. theDiva - 11/14/1999 6:36:35 PM

Glenda

SOB! Tragic, doomed from the start!

um, anyway, Coltrane.

Giant Steps

Atlantic reissued recently, with bonus tracks.

965. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 6:40:11 PM

Diva - You took the words right out of my, uh, fingers. Giant Steps is excellent. There is also a recording of Coltrane with Monk that is excellent, but the name escapes me.

966. theDiva - 11/14/1999 6:47:13 PM

Thelonious Himself, 1957

He also did one with Bean and Trane.

967. glendajean - 11/14/1999 6:57:22 PM

"....I guess I'm just a lucky so and so."

Diva, I am listening to Diana Krall's Stepping Out cd. You can't be listening to that.

968. theDiva - 11/14/1999 7:05:16 PM

No, don't have any Diana Krall yet. Did you happen to catch the Jazz at Newport on PBS the week before last? She was featured....I was impressed.

969. glendajean - 11/14/1999 7:08:43 PM

This is supposed to be early stuff of hers. Standards given a strong jazz re-creation. On Body and Soul, she sounds a little like Cassandra Wilson on Blue Skies.

Wonderful jazz temperment in her interpretations (both vocally and on the piano).

970. theDiva - 11/14/1999 7:14:16 PM

She has a nice Peggy Lee-type growl, and her phrasing and delivery is rather horn-like. Good keyboard chops, too.

971. Uzmakk - 11/14/1999 7:27:45 PM

963Biener:

Most probably not,JJ, but I am feeling powerful and promotional these days.

972. Uzmakk - 11/14/1999 7:52:59 PM

Pelle:

Have ordered Cyptonomicon from the library. What fun. BTW, I live within sight of a rare volcanic mountain. Most of the mountains in Pa. have been forced up by that plate shift business. The mountain from which this valley takes its name, spurted up from the valley floor. I was going to do a whole big post describing this whole area on travel a long time ago, but never got around to it.

973. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 7:55:55 PM

Glendajean - I have a Diana Krall CD. It is not her latest but the one previous to it. It was featured very heavily in my rotation when I first bought it. I haven't listened to it in several months. Now I am going to have to dig it out and give it a spin.

974. PelleNilsson - 11/14/1999 8:13:44 PM

Uzmakk

I think you will like Cryptonomicon. It has a bit of that absurd streak we fancy.

Talking about the absurd. I'm into constructing a web site. I'm thinking about putting up (among other things) our discussion about the Haysweep Treatise. Would you mind?

975. JonesAtLaw - 11/14/1999 8:17:08 PM

JJB- tell me more about your band, I'm curious about what you play and where.

976. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 8:28:27 PM

Jones - Normally I would have directed you to our web site, but as I posted earlier our old drummer took the site down when we parted ways. I hope to put up a new site at some point in the future, but it is going to have to wait until I have more time.

Basically we are a Blues/Rock band. We tend to range from traditional blues like John Lee Hooker and Muddy Waters to more modern blues like Johnny Lang and Walter Trout to rock like Stones, Hendrix and Jethro Tull. We aren't a cover band so don't expect our versions to stick too closely to the original. For example we do a version of Vehicle by the Ides of March which resembles the original on steriods. Our lead singer is a blues singer so everything we do sounds like blues whether it is or not.

Hopefully, your next visit to our fair city will coincide with a gig so you can check it out. Otherwise, you would be welcome to come by a practice and listen. We have a gig coming up Columbia, MO, but we haven't finalized on a date yet. After the first of the year there are several clubs in the area that have heard our practice tapes and expressed interest. A lot will depend on how quickly we can get the new drummer up to speed.

977. JonesAtLaw - 11/14/1999 9:05:52 PM

JJ- How can a man with such fine taste in music be so wrong politically? ;-)

I started listening to the blues at the recomendation of all the rock artists that I liked- Eric Clapton, Led Zepplin, the Stones, etc. When I went to college, happily there was a truly fine blues bar in town, the Zoo Bar. The house band was Little Jimmy Valentine and the Heart Murmers. Jump blues would be the best shorthand for their playing. I'm sure your band would be something I'd enjoy.

I saw really great artists at the Zoo- Magic Slim and the Teardrops, Buddy Guy, Lonnie Brooks, JB Hutto and the Hawks, Luther Allison, Jay McShan, The Fabulous Thunderbirds, Charlie Musslewhite, Joe King Caruso and the Crowns, The Bel-Airs, tons of others. If you are ever in Lincoln, check it out.

978. JonesAtLaw - 11/14/1999 9:35:11 PM

Technology is truly wonderful at times- my old hangout has a website- For some down home blues, try THE ZOO BAR with a real player.

979. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 10:43:00 PM

Jones - How can a man with such fine taste in music be so wrong politically?

I suppose I could ask you the same question.

I checked out your link for the Zoo Bar. It looks like a cool place. I don't know when I will ever make it to Lincoln, but I will keep it in mind.

980. JonesAtLaw - 11/14/1999 10:46:20 PM

JJB- fair enough!

981. Lucky - 11/14/1999 10:58:00 PM

JJ -- That sounds very interesting. You are the keyboard player, right? I play keys (but no synth, just piano and organ) with a rocking blues, jump and electric swing band as well as doing a solo act when the band isn't working. Keep 'em hammering!

Jones -- those are some of my favorite bands. Excellent.

982. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 11:28:54 PM

Lucky - Where are you located? I think I asked you once before, but I have forgotten. Do you guys have a web site?

Truth be told, I am by nature a piano player. I have a Kurzweil MicroPiano which I use for 80% of our stuff. I have a couple of organ patches on the Alesis QS7 that I use on a few songs, and on rare occaisions I will use a string, horn or flute patch. The guys give me a hard time about sticking to the piano sound so much, but that is where my roots are. If I am doing a demo and using my sequencer, I will use other sounds to fill out the arrangements, but I don't use them on stage.

983. Lucky - 11/14/1999 11:40:08 PM

JJ, if you are willing to wait for download time (it is an almost 1 mb wavfile, 'cause I can't figure out how to do mp3's and stuff), here is a clip of me playing piano with da band. The picture is from one of my solo gigs, where I also play acoustic guitar.

984. JJBiener - 11/14/1999 11:47:17 PM

Lucky - You guys rock! I would love to hear you guys play sometime. Where do you guys play?

985. Lucky - 11/14/1999 11:55:22 PM

Heh. The Southeast, where else? North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Florida, etc. Sometimes we get big gigs up Nawrth, too, but we don't like the atmosphere much. We even played a roots-blues gig at Lincoln Center in Warshington a few years ago.

Glad you liked it, and that you were willing to wait for the download time.

986. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 12:08:18 AM

Lucky - The computer I'm on has a T1 link to the internet. The download took about 10 seconds.

My family is planning a road trip through your area next summer. Maybe we can figure out a way to connect. If you ever make it to the midwest, let me know. There are several clubs in St. Louis and Kansas City that would be appropriate venues.

Interesting side note. The guitarist and bass player in my band used to play with a group called Mr. Lucky and the Blues Healers. I asked where you were to see if there was a connection.

987. Lucky - 11/15/1999 12:25:31 AM

Wow. I've never heard of them.
I've been called Mr. Lucky since about 1970, since I've been blown up by teargas and lost an eye, been dead for over 4 minutes, hit by a train with resulting shattered vertebrae, been shot, O.D.'ed several times, been forced to kill someone, and managed to live through it all (albeit scarred up). The nickname just kind of happened. Everyone I know calls me that, to my chagrin sometimes.
If we ever connect, don't expect a pretty sight. I can play the piano, however, and am a fairly nice guy no matter what some people might think.

988. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 12:34:19 AM

Lucky - That reminds me of a joke . . . nevermind.

I have been dead (or nearly) once. It was an interesting experience. I would love to discuss it with you some time, but I have to run.

Catch you later.

989. Lucky - 11/15/1999 1:02:55 AM

I know the joke about the dog named "Lucky." I'm not him. See ya.

990. Uzmakk - 11/15/1999 3:27:37 AM

Pelle974:

You have my blessing to do what you will with the haysweep discussions. I also will be adding to my website, but as usual, I will be about 20 paces behind everyone else. The holiday season is here , so Igor will be busting his hump and I my back in servitude to Santa. I will be checking in on the Mote, but my participation may be pretty sparce for the next month and a half. However, I may have a knick-nack or two to show on my website after the busy season is all over.

Hey, everybody,

did you see the

cool website Superswede set up for me?

991. Uzmakk - 11/15/1999 3:29:09 AM

Pelle974:

You have my blessing to do what you will with the haysweep discussions. I also will be adding to my website, but as usual, I will be about 20 paces behind everyone else. The holiday season is here , so Igor will be busting his hump and I my back. I will be checking in on the Mote, but my participation may be pretty sparce for the next month and a half. However, I may have a knick-nack or two to show on my website after the busy season is all over.

size="14" Hey, everybody,

992. Uzmakk - 11/15/1999 3:30:49 AM

Sorry, folks.

993. Uzmakk - 11/15/1999 12:45:07 PM

Has anyone ever heard of Ron Sexsmith? I believe what I have heard is his first album, perhaps only album thus far. Good lyrics and good melodies. Instrumentation and accompaniment, subtle and varied. Singer songwriter stuff. Album dedicated to Harry Nilsson. **** on the Uzmakk Listening Longevity Scale.

994. theDiva - 11/15/1999 3:02:08 PM

Damn, Lucky, that was incredible.....you got me rockin' first thing in the morning. You can play some piano, man!

I live in Northern Virginia....when are youse guys gonna be around? I have got to try to catch a gig.

JJ

Happy birthday to the Teen Angel, and speaking of whom.....will you (collective) be passing through our area?

995. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 6:06:23 PM

Diva - That is the plan. We want to visit you and Bubbaette and the DC Moties, and see the some of the sights of DC. Then maybe head down the East Coast to visit my Dad in Florida. We haven't finalized anything at this point. We have been focused on our trip to Memphis this weekend. We leave Friday.

Walking in Memphis
Walking with my feet ten feet off of Beale. . .

996. theDiva - 11/15/1999 6:07:44 PM

Dang, I'd love to go to Memphis. Have some barbecue for me, willya?

997. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 6:23:23 PM

Diva - Most certainly. I will also be sure to listen to some good Blues for you as well. Is there anything you want me to pick up for you at Graceland? Some leopard skin seat covers perhaps?

998. theDiva - 11/15/1999 6:47:19 PM

hahaha! I'll pass, but thanks anyway.

999. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 7:49:38 PM

Diva - Would you like the millennial post since you contribute so much to this thread? I would take it, but as host it doesn't seem appropriate.

1000. theDiva - 11/15/1999 7:53:17 PM

Aw shucks.

1001. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 7:56:06 PM

And there was much rejoicing.

Yeah!

1002. theDiva - 11/15/1999 8:02:10 PM

Shall we mambo?

1003. PelleNilsson - 11/15/1999 8:06:44 PM

Uzmakk

Here is a site that may interest you.

1004. JJBiener - 11/15/1999 8:18:45 PM

Diva - Mambo away!

1005. Uzmakk - 11/16/1999 1:50:22 AM

Marvelous, Pelle. I was almost inspired to make a long and revealing post, but I regained my composure and will just say, marvelous.

1006. RosettaStone - 11/16/1999 2:07:20 AM

The best CD I've heard in the last three months is Alan Jackson's "Under the Influence." Even if you're not a country-music fan, I recommend it.

Jackson does covers of: Pop a Top (Nat Stuckey); Farewell Party (Lawton Williams); Kiss An Angel Good Mornin' (Ben Peters); Right In The Palm of Your Hand (Bob McDill); Blues Man (Hank Williams, Jr.); Revenooer Man (Johnny Paycheck); My Own Kind of Hat (Merle Haggard, Red Lane); She Just Started Liking Cheatin' Songs (Kent Robbins); The Way I am (Sonny Throckmorton); It Must Be Love (Bob McDill); Once You've Had The Best (Johnny Paycheck); Margaritaville (Jimmy Buffett).

Wonderful music and Jackson is a terrific singer.

1007. Uzmakk - 11/16/1999 2:25:23 AM

Anyway, that site is in my " favorites"now. I will ALWAYS have something to study when I sit at the computer now.

1008. Uzmakk - 11/16/1999 2:38:58 AM

Fantastic, Pelle.

1009. floater - 11/16/1999 6:21:26 PM

Deev

You deserve the millennial congratulations straight way. Well done. Jolly good show. Ha!;-)

1010. JJBiener - 11/16/1999 9:35:05 PM

Jen - How long have you been in England?

1011. PelleNilsson - 11/16/1999 10:19:36 PM

This is from the site I recommended to Uzmakk. Anyone interested in books and bookbinding could do much worse than spending half an hour there. Below is a book crafted and bound around 1460, probably in Valencia.

1012. CharlieL - 11/17/1999 5:56:26 AM

JJ-- Congrats on the new drummer, high harmonist and speakers (not necessarily in that order, of course).

I've been busy trying to figure out which end of the octave mandolin to play. If I can just get it into my head that it's tuned in fifths, instead of fourths (that I've been used to for 32 years now) like my bass, I may be able to get some good parts out of it.

I also have to stretch my fingers to get the low notes out of the low D whistle that I'm trying to play.

Aside from the fact that I can't play the damn things, they're actually starting to sound good! I don't know how that's happening, either.

1013. JJBiener - 11/17/1999 7:39:46 PM

Chuck - I remember reading somewhere about a guy who tuned his mandolin in fourths so he could play it like a guitar. I don't know how well it would work. It could easily end up sounding like a ukelele, and that wouldn't be good. The nice thing about learning mandolin is that it has the same tuning as a violin. When Charlie Daniels was learning fiddle, he learned the fingerings on mandolin then transferred them. Maybe you could try violin when you master the mandolin.

1014. ScottLoar - 11/17/1999 8:19:07 PM

What leads anyone to assume the book was crafted in Valencia?

1015. RosettaStone - 11/17/1999 10:49:26 PM

Give me some space here. I'm trying to memorize the lyrics to this song and need to get the words down on paper.

I've been playing it a whole lot the last week on my car's CD. It's from Alan Jackson's "Under the Influence", a ballet written by Hank Williams Jr. It's the first song of HW Jr's that I really like. Williams wrote it about one of his wifes, and Jackson changed the lyrics from "I" to "he" and "you" to "her."

The Blues Man:

He's just a singer, a natural born guitar ringer
Kind of a clinger to sad old songs
He's not a work-behinder, he's a new note finder
But his name's a reminder
Of a blues man that already gone.

So he started drinkin', took some things that messed up his thingin'
He was sure sinkin' when she came along
He was alone in the spot light, not too much left in sight
She changed all that one night
When she sang him this song.

(chorus ) "Hey baby I love you. Hey baby I need you
Hey baby you ain't got to prove to me
You're some kind of macho man
You've wasted so much of your life
Runnin' through the dark nights
Let me shine a little love light
Down on that blues man."

He got so sick from speedin', all the things they said he was needing
If he was to keep on pleasin all of his fans
He got cuffed on dirt roads, he got sued over no shows
She came and took all that old load
Down off that blues man, and he sang. (chorus)

1016. JJBiener - 11/17/1999 10:53:17 PM

Rosie - Ick!

1017. RosettaStone - 11/17/1999 11:23:17 PM

No cowboy hat for you this Christmas!

1018. Uzmakk - 11/18/1999 12:12:41 AM

1014ScotLoar:

The manuscript in the chemise binding is a Book of Hours which, judging from its decoration, must have been made in Valencia. The miniatures have been executed by two artists. The most talented of the two painted the Annunciation at the beginning of the Hours of the Virgin, reproduced here on the opposite page. His style reveals a strong influence of fifteenth-century Flemish panel painting, as can be seen, for instance, in the hairstyle - smooth hair across the head and fanning out below - and the sumptuous hang of the folds in the gowns.

1019. JJBiener - 11/18/1999 12:23:35 AM

Rosie - Is that a promise?

1020. Lucky - 11/18/1999 1:20:44 AM

Heh. I love it. Blues vs. Country wars.

1021. ScottLoar - 11/18/1999 2:03:38 AM

Uzmakk, you identify the provenance by the decoration? Or the binding? How do you know two different artists worked on the minatures? Yes, I can see the influence of northern Renaissance paintings upon the figures shown, but the color and richness of the robes betray these paintings as Spanish. Or so I would think, but I'm really interested to know what exactly leads one to suppose this Book of Hours is from Valencia.

Please understand my interest. I often come across objects ascribed to a particular period and place and am always keen to know why.

1022. PelleNilsson - 11/18/1999 9:36:26 AM

Scott

The link to the bookbinding site is in Message # 1003. Uzmakk's explanation is taken from there.

1023. ScottLoar - 11/18/1999 11:41:28 AM

Thank you. By the decorations of the binding the museum authorities claim it must have been made in Valencia but give no details. I'm no nearer to understanding than before.

1024. Uzmakk - 11/18/1999 12:29:55 PM

ScottLoar, you are a first rate skeptic. As for the exact thinking of the "authorities", I know not.

1025. joezan - 11/18/1999 12:46:52 PM

Scott:

Valencia is in Spain, no?

1026. Uzmakk - 11/18/1999 3:12:43 PM

Valencia is in Spain, yes.

Pelle:

You may recall my inane ditty concerning the goddess Propogandra over in poetry. Your posting of the Book of Hours prompts me to tell you that in the fully conceptualized version of this ditty a mouth sings from the lower loop of each italicised g, the G in Goddess is illuminated, and the signs which bracket the name Propogandra are Foi-gras fatted integral signs.

I met a man
the other day
he sang
and sang
and sang away

of the Goddess

f Propagandra f



for she is in the
pantheon
for happenings here
and far Anon,
the Goddess
f Propagandra f

1027. floater - 11/18/1999 5:44:00 PM

Rosetta,

The newest Dixie Chicks CD is AWESOME. Next time you're in a music shop listen to it, it's their best ever.

Btw, cowboy hats are cool. I have a black felt one.

1028. robertjayb - 11/18/1999 6:08:17 PM

.
R.I.P., Sir Douglas...

TAOS, N.M. (AP) - Doug Sahm, a main mover in the Tex-Mex supergroup Texas Tornados and the lead in the Sir Douglas Quintet, has been found dead in a Taos hotel room. He was 58.

1029. JudithAtHome - 11/18/1999 7:09:10 PM

We are going tonight to see a production of Joe Ortens Loot . Has anyone seen this play?

1030. Uzmakk - 11/18/1999 7:30:17 PM

Not I, Judith.

1031. ScottLoar - 11/18/1999 7:34:19 PM

Joezan,

Yes, Valencia is in Spain as it is now constructed. But, at the time c. 1460 some parts of what is now Spain were held by the Moors, yet this has nothing to do with my question why exactly Valencia?

It's not a meaningless or slight quibble. An authority supposes a particular place of origin for an antique piece I'm always curious to know why. This correspondence and the quoted article do not answer that question. Unless, of course, you can tell me why the binding reveals it was probably made in Valencia. Do you care? I have more than a casual interest in determining the provenance of antique pieces.

1032. Uzmakk - 11/18/1999 8:27:53 PM

Indeed, Loar.

1033. RosettaStone - 11/18/1999 9:03:46 PM

Thanks, floater. You sound like a "dixie chic" to me. Don Imus plays their music often on his radio/MSNBC show. It's on my Xmas list but I now have to share music money with kids.

(I can't ALWAYS complain since I wouldn't have ever listened to Nirvana if it wasn't for my oldest boy. Now I'm a big fan of Kurt and hate that phony, Courtney Love. Doesn't anybody know if she murdered him?)

I don't think I've been so mad at JJ. I was sharing something special. Something unique. Something American. He didn't have to say "IcK" and then make fun of cowboy hats.

I've always been suspicious of "musicians" who don't like country music.

So let's hear it for Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, George Jones, early Elvis, Bill Monroe, Hank Williams, Patsy Cline, Randy Travis, etc. I don't like people making fun of bluegrass or old-fashioned American country music.

Our moderator, JJ sounds like a "Grand Funk Railroad" fan.

1034. JudithAtHome - 11/18/1999 9:09:31 PM

I don't mind country music except for the overwhelming effect it has on me: can't listen to it without craving beer.

1035. theDiva - 11/18/1999 9:11:55 PM

I love Patsy Cline and Hank Williams. She's got one hell of a set of pipes, and he's a terrific songwriter.

There was an album released a few years ago that paired country musicians with their blues counterparts. I wish like hell I could remember the name of it...I heard selections from it, and they were quite good. The forms have more in common at their roots than is superficially apparent.

1036. RosettaStone - 11/18/1999 9:51:42 PM

Diva: Don't try to change the subject. This is a bar fight between me and JJ.

And I'm wearing boots.

1037. theDiva - 11/18/1999 10:08:24 PM

Yeah, but I can still whup BOTH yer asses. Now siddown and have a beer.

1038. RosettaStone - 11/18/1999 10:17:16 PM

Just like JJ to hide behind a woman's skirts. I bet he thinks "Blues Brothers II" was the best movie from last year.

I would call him a "pussy", but there are women in the audience.

1039. theDiva - 11/18/1999 10:18:22 PM

Oh, stop, you.

1040. RosettaStone - 11/18/1999 10:25:37 PM

I would love to chat, diva. My beef isn't with you. But the A train is calling and I must be going home.

At lunch, I purchased the new Austin Powers movie for the family . We never saw it in the theatre, so it's going to be a treat.

Tell JJ, COUNTRY RULES!

1041. theDiva - 11/18/1999 10:28:49 PM

I know that...just pullin' yer chain. Have a good weekend.

1042. EricCartman - 11/18/1999 10:37:30 PM

Country music, at least most modern country music, is pretty bad, both musically and lyrically. When Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, or Hank Williams sang about good love gone bad, or bad love gone worse, it was true and right, and they did it their way.

But Garth Brooks and Nirvana changed all that. Bear with me here; as ridiculous as it sounds, it's true. Rock in the late '80s was mostly Guns n' Roses-type stuff, which some Boomers could tolerate. But Nirvana, and their infinite imitators, upped the ante a bit with their caustic sound. Where does an aging rocker turn, when Spruce Bedsprings only does an album every 4 years or so?

Enter Garth Brooks. Half cornpone country, half Billy Joel/Kiss/Led Zeppelin pop rock with dynamics, Brooks used rock music staples in his songwriting, such as minor keys and dynamics, which are almost non-existent in country. And his live shows featured just about every rock cliché in the book -- running, jumping, high-energy, smashing guitars, etc. So a lot of disenchanted rock fans turned to Brooks.

Brooks' success spawned that thing known as "young" or "new" country -- mostly male models stuffed into Wranglers, with whiny-ass voices. It's about as true and real as the Spice Girls, folks.



BTW, Stone, check out the documentary "Kurt and Courtney" sometime for an interesting take on Cobain's death. And enjoy all the fart and shit jokes in AP2.

1043. Uzmakk - 11/18/1999 11:28:01 PM

I liked that, CartMan, that rang true. And I got a feelin' called a blue.

1044. EricCartman - 11/18/1999 11:54:29 PM

Uz:

Even though I'm a rock guy, there was a time when I had to play country to make ends meet. If I can put a tear in someone's beer, then my day is complete.

Hey, that there kinda rhymes, don't it?

1045. harper - 11/19/1999 12:19:12 AM

Saw Weird Al Yankovic last Sunday. Now THAT was surreal. He does a spot-on Kurt Cobain. To say I have eclectic musical tastes would be a gross understanding...

1046. dusty - 11/19/1999 12:23:28 AM

harper

I wouldn't have pegged you for a weird al fan, or is it a Cobain fan?

1047. RosettaStone - 11/19/1999 5:09:52 AM

Eric Cartman: Thank you for explaining Garth Brooks. I've never understood his popularity and can't name one of his songs. Yet, he's sold 90 million albums since 1990 and two summers ago did a free concert in Central Park, New York City, with 600,000 people.

Kurt Cobain, I understand. He is my kids generation's Neil Young. "I'm so ugly/that's okay/'cause so are you." may look strange in print but touches my teen-age son in ways that drew me into Cobain's confessional-confrontation lyrics/music.

1048. joezan - 11/19/1999 5:20:38 AM

ScottLoar:

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was nit-picking. As it happens, calligraphy is a long-time hobby of mine, and such illuminations as the one Uzmakk posted are probably my favorite art form - though, to tell the truth, I cannot claim any expertise. And even though I frequent a local museum which displays such art from all over Europe, I could never distinguish the illuminations rendered by Spanish hands from, say, those of the German or Italian. So, I was pretty impressed that you could.

1049. joezan - 11/19/1999 5:26:29 AM

Rosetta:

None of the people making country music 20 years ago would recognize today's country music as such. The Eagles were more "country" than any current country artists, with the exception of maybe Randy Travis.

Now, Lyle Lovett can make some great country music when he's in the mood, but he's gone more to swing and some rather eccentric stuff in recent years.

1050. EricCartman - 11/19/1999 5:50:21 AM

Stone:

I actually like some of Brooks' stuff, but mostly the ones where he's borrowing from Billy Joel or Zeppelin. My old band learned probably a half-dozen of his songs to play in certain bars, and while some were just flat dull, others were cool, with minor keys and unusual chord progressions (for country). Nothing puts me to sleep faster, as a player and as a listener, than a cheeseball I-IV-V progression, unless it's done in a dynamically interesting fashion. But straight-ahead Chuck Berry chugs get old pretty quickly.

The new country I hear once in a while, like Alan Jackson, just doesn't do anything for me. No balls, no real passion. Johnny Cash, that's a guy with King Kong balls. Every thing he says resonates; there is no whining with Johnny, and he's had a hard life. Compare with Tim McGraw, who has the whiniest fucking pussy voice I've ever heard. I don't his life's been all that hard, unless having a mediocre big-league pitcher for a dad and a hot wife count as hard.

WRT Cobain, I liked Nevermind, and I love the acoustic live album, but that was about it. I never got the "voice of a generation" thing, but as Bart Simpson once pointed out, selling depressing music to teenagers is like shooting fish in a barrel. But I liked that confrontational aspect of Cobain; unfortunately it was his raison d'être.

The LA prog-metal band Tool has an excellent song about Cobain called Eulogy, where they pick him apart, along with the cult of personality that sprung up in the wake of his suicide:

He had a lot to say
He had a lot of nothin' to say
We'll miss him, We'll miss him
Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart
We'll miss him, we're gonna miss him

1051. joezan - 11/19/1999 6:07:25 AM

Give Back My Heart

Well I'm a travellin' man, don't tie me down
There's just too much livin' goin' all around
A man has gotta see what he can see

Well I love the road and I love the air
And I don't worry - hell, I never care
I love my women, sometimes they love me

But I was got one day - still don't know how
I didn't even like that town
Some fella said, "Stranger, why donchoo jus' go on home"

Well I said, "Man that's where I'm a-headed to
And you couldn't stop me if you knew what to do"
And I left and I planned to go alone

But the road was long and home was far
So I stopped off this little cowboy-lookin' bar
Walked on through the door and she jus' smiled
Well in a long ponytail and a pretty white dress
She said, "Hi - bullriders do it best!"
I said, "Ohmigod, what's your name? My name's Lyle"

And I said, Ooohoohooh, give back my heart
Chip-kickin' redneck woman
Take them boots and walk out of my life
Ooohoohoo, give back my heart
Chip-kickin' redneck woman
I can't be no cowgirl pair-o-dice

Well I looked at her and she looked at me
And I looked back and she looked back
And we went out together for a walk

Lord, her eyes were bright, just like the stars
And she drove a pickup, said she hated cars
But loved to ride around out after dark

And I said, Ooohoohooh, give back my heart
Chip-kickin' redneck woman
Take them boots and walk out of my life
Ooohoohoo, give back my heart
Chip-kickin' redneck woman
I can't be no cowgirl paradise

(continued...)

1052. joezan - 11/19/1999 6:08:41 AM

Well how she did it, I'll never know
But it's been maybe 20 years or so
She cooks the supper and I try to pay the rent

But I'm a travellin' man, don't tie me down
There's just too much livin' goin' all around
And I can't figger out quite where it went

And I say, Ooohoohooh, give back my heart
Chip-kickin' redneck woman
Take them boots and walk out of my life
Ooohoohoo, give back my heart
Chip-kickin' redneck woman
I can't be no cowgirl pair-o-dice
No, I can't be no cowgirl paradise
No, I can't be no cowgirl fairy daisy


Lyle Lovett

Now, that's country music!

1053. floater - 11/19/1999 3:16:38 PM

I'm going to see if I can figure this out.

1054. floater - 11/19/1999 3:18:04 PM

1055. floater - 11/19/1999 3:18:38 PM

COOL!!!


Rosetta,

Here is a photo of the Dixie Chicks for ya.

1056. JudithAtHome - 11/19/1999 5:16:13 PM

Rather difficult to follow that but here goes:

Saw Joe Ortens Loot last night and it was one of the more enjoyable plays we've seen all year. The cast was superb and their reactions to one another were a joy to behold.

Orten was too late to qualify as an Angry Young Man but he brought some shrewd skills at skewering the government, police force, marriage, and the Catholic Church to the table. This story of 2 hapless bank robbers trying to outsmart an alledgedly bumbling detective during a funeral for one of the robbers mothers is a must for anyone who enjoys contained hysteria. It's rather slap-stick at times but always entertaining.

We went with another couple and the 4 of us were laughing throughout the entire play while 2 couples seated across the stage from us sat in stoney silence, never cracking a smile...I thought perhaps they were deaf but noticed at intermission they managed more than one expression while speaking amongst themselves. So I guess this British play isn't everyones cuppa' tea. But the majority of the audience enjoyed it and I think most people who like comedic theatre would do so, too.

1057. Uzmakk - 11/19/1999 5:43:54 PM

Sounds good, Judith. Alas, it shall never make it to the boonies.

joezan: Do I recall a picture that you posted of a lovely community in Michigan where you live? Really? What makes you like this particular art form so much? Illuminated pages.

Loar: I don't know about that provonance stuff, but there's gonna be some pretty good shit coming out of my studio pretty soon. IMHO.

1058. ScottLoar - 11/19/1999 7:40:09 PM

But if the stuff is coming out of your studio the provenance is known. Provenance is important to answering the single question that bugs hell out of any collector, "Is this for real or not?" Provenance is independent of taste and appreciation.

I've got a large pottery jar but hard-fired, with a wonderful white, dripped glaze. Everything about this piece screams "moon-white" ware, but is it T'ang Dynasty or Sung? I think it's T'ang, and if so it is one rare piece. One very rare piece. So goddamned rare that I'm afraid of thinking it's T'ang. So, provenance is important, and without it I can't be sure of that jar. It talks to me, I listen, but I can't answer.

Frankly, I'd very much like to see some of the stuff coming out of your studio. Can you please a few samples? On this website I mean.

1059. JudithAtHome - 11/19/1999 7:44:14 PM

Scott:

How could you find out if your piece is T'ang or Sung? Is there a test that could be done or would you have to rely solely on another experts opinion?

1060. RosettaStone - 11/19/1999 9:07:30 PM

Thanks, floater. Is that what heaven's like? Of course not, but you can dream.

Re: Courtney Love, wife of the very dead Kurt Cobain. I'm not crazy about her or her music but she did one anti-PC thing worth noting.

...from www.algore-2000.org

Politicians are rarely successful when they mix with pop stars, as VP Al Gore is the latest to learn.

Finding himself talking to the controversial rock star Courtney Love at a Hollywood party, Al Gore attempted to charm her by telling her he was a fan. Rather than just accepting the easy compliment, Love cross-examined him.

"He goes 'I'm a really big fan,'" said Love. "And I was like 'Yeah, right. Name a song, Al.' The answer came limply back: "I can't name a song. I'm just a really big fan."

Mr. Gore and his wife Tipper were the driving forces behind the campaign to make record companies put stickers on records that contained sexually explicit content. Love's band, Hole, specializes in drug-addled musings on promiscuity and despair.

1061. JudithAtHome - 11/19/1999 9:16:46 PM

Rosetta:

I thought that "rating sticker on album covers" thing was just Tippers little balliwick; I didn't think Al had much to do with it.

1062. RosettaStone - 11/19/1999 9:26:23 PM

It was Tipper's idea but they BOTH took credit for it in the beginning.

But when he started to run for president in 1988, Alpha realized it wasn't helping him with Democrats--and gave his wife & her other associates COMPLETE credit for it.

Personally I never had a problem with having warning stickers on albums. It's like have the movie violence/sex code on videos. It helps parents with material that they aren't familiar with.

1063. JudithAtHome - 11/19/1999 9:54:16 PM

I never gave it a thought one way or another because the sort of music I prefer doesn't need a label or hasn't since the 18th-19th century.

But I can certainly see how parents would be helped with labels on music, movies, and videos. I've heard lyrics that sound positively disgusting and frankly, I wouldn't want any little kid hearing some of that tripe.

1064. RosettaStone - 11/19/1999 10:12:33 PM

Mark this day in time, Judith. We agree. Read DEAR ABBY this morning. (Yes, I admit, RS sometimes needs advice.)

Dear Abby: Will you please ask your readers to take a minute to think about how they treat people who are different or unique? (BTW, that's what hooked me into reading the rest of the column)

These days we seem to care about how we treat people who are disabled or in a minority--however, some of us seem to forget that ALL people should be treated with kindness, dignity and respect, regardless of who they are or what they do.

My son is an Elvis impersonator. I'm not talking about some clairvoyant who thinks he channels Elvis; I'm talking about a talented singer who works hard at his profession of re-creating the Elvis concert experience. He even was selected to be in a new film on impersonators called "Almost Elvis." But you would not believe the way some people treat him in public.

Although he doesn't walk around in a jumpsuit, he must look the part, with black hair and sideburns. It amazes and upset me how rude and insensitive people can be with their smart remarks. If they stopped to think for a minute about the Golden Rule, about choosing to build up rather than tear down those around them, we might have a little more kindness in the world. Elvis was know for his kindness to strangers--and I think we could all take a lesson from him.

--PROTECTIVE LITTLE MAMA, OLYMPIA, WASH

1065. RosettaStone - 11/19/1999 10:16:59 PM

Poker, anyone? I will give Dear Abby's wonderful answer only if ScottLair apologizes to Dusty. (Here, in writing.)

1066. wabbit - 11/19/1999 10:26:06 PM

Dear Abby, Dear Abby ...
My feet are too long
My hair's falling out
And my rights are all wrong
My friends they all tell me
That I've no friends at all
Won't you write me a letter
Won't you give me a call
Signed Bewildered

1067. Uzmakk - 11/19/1999 10:30:15 PM

Bruce Cockburn?

1068. wabbit - 11/19/1999 10:39:57 PM

John Prine.

1069. RosettaStone - 11/19/1999 10:43:48 PM

Poor John. I read somewhere that he has cancer from smoking. Hope the treatment worked.

1070. Uzmakk - 11/19/1999 10:53:38 PM

Ah yes, ofcourse. I knew it was a Canadian.

1071. Lucky - 11/19/1999 10:58:58 PM

Heh. Uzmakk, you are a hoot.

1072. RosettaStone - 11/20/1999 12:02:05 AM

John Prine isn't a Canadian, is he? (Was that a joke? If so, I'm getting dumb and dumber.)

That reminds me, I saw local concert reviews for Jesse Winchester and Gordon Bok. Brought back a lot of memories. But I hardly had a chance to reread the reviews before one of my kids destroyed the newspaper.

1073. wabbit - 11/20/1999 12:51:20 AM

Wow, Jesse Winchester, But if you feel like talking, talk away, I'm gonna hang on every word you say. Great stuff. I remember seeing him in a tiny little club in Boston ages ago.

I hadn't heard the cancer news about Prine. He's from the Chicago area, btw.

1074. dusty - 11/20/1999 1:02:54 AM

RosettaStone

Thanks for the support, but I'd prefer to drop it.

However, I will note that my sister-in-law is a very accomplished artist, with significant experience in pottery. (Although she's switched to homeopathy.) I'm not an expert in the area, but her creations were showing well, and fetching far more sums than I thought possible for a pot. One of her specialties was raku, and I'm told she did some seminal work in that area. This hardly proves that she knows how to tell whether something is T'ang Dynasty or Sung, but I'll bet she knows who does.

1075. cmboyce - 11/20/1999 9:00:27 AM

ScottLoar,

Tang can ordinarily be told from Song by means of a thermoluminescence test. I'm sure a dealer, thinking he or she had a piece whose value was great and dependent on date, would send the piece to Oxford (or somewhere; the citations I see are mostly to a lab at Oxford) to be tested.

But there are datable characteristics. I don't know the term "moon-white" but I'm guessing ding wares--the only very white Song wares, I believe (though some qingbai pieces are so little blue as to seem white, and some Tzu choe monochrome pieces are a nice white cream. A common feature in ding bowls of the Song, that I don't think appears in Tang whites, is the unglazed rim. Also, the so-called "tear-drop" glaze, with drips forming where the glaze is thick, is a Song device, and if there's any molded decoration, that too is a Song innovation. But the most distinctive difference between Song whites and all earlier ones is the very warm ivory color, the result of a change is kiln fuel from wood to coal, producing a higher temperature but (or and) also yielding a somewhat oxygenating atmosphere that, with the ding glaze (itself used since before Tang), resulted in the wonderful Song white. Also, there are other ding colors--remarkable reddish-browns to black--that are also amazing, I imaging for the same reason.

The piece you describe, with its "wonderful" white, and a thick glaze sure sounds Song to me, but of course this is no venue in which to exercise such connoiseurship as I have (which ain't all that reliable, anyway ;-)).

I've got to get out of here; it's very late, and I've a busy morrow that is much too close. Goodnight, all.

1076. cmboyce - 11/20/1999 9:02:47 AM

I imagine (tho imaging is how I do so).

1077. joezan - 11/20/1999 2:02:47 PM

Uzmakk - re: #1057:

When I was in high school I developed - with much practice - a very ornate style of handwriting, which I used for special occasions - holiday cards, etc.

One of my art teachers saw something I'd written on the cover of a book or something, was impressed, and gave me a very nice, very expensive set of pens and inks. I was hooked within minutes, and have practiced and been interested in the form ever since. And, of course, one does not look far for practical examples of calligraphy without seeing many illuminations, bindings, etc.

It is this form (illumination) which has always impressed me the most.
(I'll be back later - I've got to run out now).

1078. ScottLoar - 11/20/1999 5:10:34 PM

Cmboyce, I am intimately familiar with what you've recounted and assure you my piece is not ding ware. I repeat, "moon-white" (exactly as taken from the Chinese characters), which first appears in the late T'ang, and yet is not the white of ding ware nor even, strictly speaking, white, but a creamy grey. Moreover, the piece is stoneware which almost immediately discounts it as ding ware. As to the monochrome glaze itself, it is not applied as common to temmoku with a single tear drop coming to fall just above the base but more in the manner of sancai application as seen on T'ang dynasty figurines. The glaze has fractured into very fine lines over the centuries attesting to great age (again, not crackled glaze but fractured). It has been examined by "experts" from a reputable museum and pronounced as so

"stoneware, flaring mouth rim, slender ovid shaped body, flat unglazed base, creamish glazed, ht. 29.5 cm, Tang dynasty"

but as I hold a considerable amount of experience and a modest collection of Sung pieces I am less than 110% convinced. This piece is late T'ang or early Sung, and thermoluminescence to my knowledge cannot give me the accuracy within 200 years that I want.

In my own experience of such porcelains collectors and academics either know a little or know a lot. There is little in between as one needs an understanding of the period, forms, materials and means of construction; one needs the experience of seeng and handling hundreds of pieces; one needs the sound counsel of qualified authority; and one should have good taste. This last qualification is subjective but seems to elude many authorities.

1079. ScottLoar - 11/20/1999 5:20:00 PM

The marked difference between T'ang and Sung pieces in most instances is revealed at a glance. My piece is one of the exceptions, undoubtedly because I have little experience of "moon-white" as does almost everyone else.

1080. ScottLoar - 11/20/1999 5:51:01 PM

The value of thermoluminescence and other dating techniques when applied to antiques is to judge the new from the old, the fakes from the real. The general age of my piece is not in question so these dating techniques don't have the accuracy I need.

1081. RosettaStone - 11/20/1999 8:21:22 PM

"!Hey Macarena!"

1082. robertjayb - 11/20/1999 9:30:11 PM

.
Hoagy Carmichael Anniversary Marked

1083. robertjayb - 11/20/1999 9:34:26 PM

.

1084. robertjayb - 11/20/1999 9:37:58 PM

.
The Hoagy Carmichael Collection

1085. Uzmakk - 11/20/1999 10:25:56 PM

Sorry, Lucky, I honestly thought John Prine was a Canadian.

1086. Uzmakk - 11/20/1999 10:35:01 PM

Sorry to you too, Rosetta. Wabbit, I saw Jesse Winchester a couple times in Montreal.

1087. Lucky - 11/20/1999 10:58:30 PM

Uzmakk, I wasn't ridiculing you at all. I misunderstood your post and thought you were making a joke. It was funny, too, even though I misread it. No problem, I hope.

1088. RosettaSTONE - 11/20/1999 11:16:14 PM

Lucky: Do you post at NPR's board? Have any friends still there? Would you encourage some of your friends to post on mote? There are so few of them at NPR and I bet they would enjoy this board once they got to know it.

I did promotion there just before the great meltdown here, and some of them witnessed "God's" spamming--and were turned off by the fighting. It might be a good time to try it again.

1089. Lucky - 11/20/1999 11:35:48 PM

Stone,
There are hundreds of people who post at NPR, but only a dozen-and-a-half or so old-time regulars. I have a few on-line friends there, but I don't fit in with the general tone of the BBS since I am basically uninterested in politics these days and tend to write poetry, memories, and stories. NPR's "Your Turn" is not really set up for that kind of thing. I will, however, e-mail some folks there and invite them. I don't "know" anyone here really, but think that it is a very interesting forum.