American Politics, pt. 8

Hey there!

2. jexster - 8/26/2002 11:28:43 AM

High Crimes and Misdemeanors Anyone?

"Two senior administration officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said White House counsel Al Gonzales advised Bush earlier this month that the Constitution gives the president authority to wage war without explicit authority from Congress."

3. concerned - 8/26/2002 11:53:04 AM

Here's something for all 'progressives' (IO, I'm thinking about you here) who are so frightened of theocratic influences in government to contemplate thoroughly and well, referred to in the following link:

"In Georgia, McKinney Exploring Senate Run"

Excerpt:

Meanwhile, Eleanor Clift says McKinney's recent primary loss suggests there is a new political third rail in American politics: "Supporting Muslim issues this campaign season could end many a political career."

The only 'Muslim' issues which are distinct from those of supporting any other religion (what happened to the separation of church and state here?) amount to discrimination against non-Muslims. Therefore, anybody who runs on 'Muslim' issues is a professional religious bigot.

4. jexster - 8/26/2002 11:55:18 AM

This is your brain...this is your brain on rat poison

He's been leading the country, and the world, for that matter, ever since" the Sept. 11 attacks, DeLay said. "So, I think this is a time to lead. Others will join when you show strong leadership, like President Bush has shown."

5. concerned - 8/26/2002 11:55:54 AM

Re. 35001 -

Sorry, Jex. None of that for GWB. He's covered re. Iraq either way.

6. jexster - 8/26/2002 12:08:22 PM

Time to put The Exterminator out of our misery.
I hear there's a humane society in Huntsville Texas that takes care of this sort of thing

Iraq & the 9 Other Countries Tom DeLay Would Invade

And the Moronic Minions thought C. McKinney was a nut case!

7. robertjayb - 8/27/2002 12:12:31 AM

Obsession, not policy, drives Iraq scheme...By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

8. robertjayb - 8/27/2002 12:12:56 AM

Obsession, not policy, drives Iraq scheme...By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

9. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/27/2002 11:14:39 AM

Inarticulate, and proud of it

10. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/27/2002 11:24:24 AM

Where is good Jester?

11. jexster - 8/27/2002 11:32:15 AM

Lafayette I am here

The Burning Bush

"I'm thrilled to be here in the bread basket of America because it gives me a chance to remind our fellow citizens that we have an advantage here in America—we can feed ourselves."—Stockton, Calif., Aug. 23, 2002

12. jexster - 8/27/2002 11:37:56 AM

San Francisco, Calif.: 1. An article today recounted a dispute among your colleagues concerning the possible outcomes of urban warfare with Gen Hoak being decidedly pessimistic (realistic?). Question, how effective can U.S. tactics of "a synergy of violence and speed" be in urban fighting?

2. How might this be different from the experience of the last violently swift force to try, the German 6th Army?

Gen. Bernard Trainor: Urban warfare is ghastly. Nobody wants another Stalingrad or Grozney. The defat of the Iraqi army in the field could reduce the need to fight in the cities. As Mao did in China in 1949, he took the countryside and the Nationalists holed up in the cities facing the communists and a hostile population became discouraged and gave in. We saw the same thing in Kurst in Afghanistan.


Jeximan The Magnificent aka Commander Baba Jex and Gen. Bernard E. Trainor (USMC Ret)
Adjunct Senior Fellow,
Council on Foreign Relations

13. jexster - 8/27/2002 12:14:11 PM

The temperature was 100 degrees in the shade as President George W. Bush met reporters at his Texas ranch last week. Cows were dying. Buzzards were circling

14. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/27/2002 12:16:20 PM

Touche mon general!

15. jexster - 8/27/2002 12:21:41 PM

Gen. Anthony Zinni - "This is Bush's Bay of Goats"

16. jexster - 8/27/2002 12:22:13 PM

Gen. Anthony Zinni - "This is Bush's Bay of Goats"

Immanuel Wallerstein - "George W. Bush is a geopolitical incompetent. He has allowed a clique of hawks to induce him to take a position, an invasion of Iraq, from which he cannot extract himself and which will have nothing but negative consequences, for everyone but first of all for the United States. He will find himself badly hurt politically, perhaps fatally. He will diminish rather rapidly the already declining power of the United States in the world. He will contribute dramatically to the destruction of the state of Israel by furthering the suicidal madness of the Israeli hawks. Of course, there will be many persons in the world who will be happy to see such negative consequences. The trouble is that, in the process, Bush will conduct warfare that will destroy many lives immediately, lead to a degree of turmoil in the Arab-Islamic world of a kind and at a level hitherto unimagined,"

Cows die, buzzard fly

17. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/27/2002 12:25:29 PM

Keep up the good work, mon cher. Yours truly is off to a sumpious feast of grilled salmon.

18. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/27/2002 12:32:12 PM

19. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/27/2002 12:33:02 PM

20. jexster - 8/27/2002 12:55:54 PM

Cows die, buzzards fly, pigs wear lipstick

21. jexster - 8/27/2002 1:17:15 PM

and Cheney talks loudly and carries a swizzle stick!

Spin 101
The administration is bringing 17 Iraqi dissidents to Washington for coaching in how to present the case for deposing Saddam. Many of the dissidents, who are from Europe and North America, have little experience dealing with the media. Their lessons at the State Department are intended to teach them how to compose Op-Ed pieces, speeches, and sound bites for radio and television. (8/26/02)Slate

22. jexster - 8/27/2002 1:20:36 PM

I have to laugh when I hear so called environmentalist bemoan the fact that logging companies will, god forbid, make a profit. Is lumber a viable product or not? Perhaps Liberals should fight for a law that forbids stick frame construction

Don't laugh too hard Al, you might get a hernia, have to wear a corset

"Round up the usual suspects! George W. Bush's new "Healthy Forests" plan reads like a parody of his administration's standard operating procedure. You see, environmentalists cause forest fires, and those nice corporations will solve the problem if we get out of their way.

Am I being too harsh? No, actually it's even worse than it seems. "Healthy Forests" isn't just about scrapping environmental protection; it's also about expanding corporate welfare"
Krugman

23. concerned - 8/27/2002 1:30:46 PM

Krugman is an idiot for whom politics trumps reason. He would rather have forests perish in holocausts than see people prosper.

24. concerned - 8/27/2002 1:31:20 PM

Somebody forgot their closing html tags again.

25. jexster - 8/27/2002 2:06:29 PM

Well ya know that sounds a whole lot like the Big Cali Snake Oil scam to me....

Bush regularly pumps dollars to his cronies under various guises, wildfire (as Krugman and others point out there are better ways that don't involve corp welfare), 9-1-1 (Trashcroft fascism; War for Bush's Crediblity; corporate welfare tax cuts); Big ENRON rip off (AWNR drilling); economy up, economy down (tax cuts for the wealthy); Steel Tariffs...

Its an adminisration full of con men and a few "connie's" with Kindergaten Talking Points....

That's why cows die, buzzards fly

26. jexster - 8/27/2002 2:08:20 PM

Further to my conversations with Gen Trainor at the Council on Foreign Relations....

US Unprepared for Urban Warfare - National Defense Magazine

27. Cellar Door - 8/27/2002 3:08:24 PM

He shoots -- He scores!

28. concerned - 8/27/2002 5:00:35 PM

Hey, CD. At least FR pulled the thread. I've never seen a Lefty site pull a thread because anti-Left political comments were too extreme, and they average a good deal worse than what I've seen on FR.

29. concerned - 8/27/2002 5:01:06 PM

Hey, CD. At least FR pulled the thread. I've never seen a Lefty site pull a thread because anti-Right political comments were too extreme, and they average a good deal worse than what I've seen on FR.

30. concerned - 8/27/2002 5:02:27 PM

Please delete post 35027. TIA.

31. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/27/2002 5:29:37 PM

Paf**kingthetic!

32. Cellar Door - 8/27/2002 6:50:13 PM

What on earth have you seen from the left that comes even close to the constant bile of Freeperville?

Be specific, I won't take Coulteresque hand-waving for an answer.

33. concerned - 8/27/2002 7:22:44 PM

C'mon, CD. Look at Jex, right here.

Time to put The Exterminator out of our misery.
I hear there's a humane society in Huntsville Texas that takes care of this sort of thing

Here's a few 'gems' from DU.

about Cheney:
He's an enemy combatent
turn him in to Asscroft.

State of the nation : All shitty with smirk at stolen helm

Has Chimpy suceeded in painting a bullseye on all of our backs?

Bush the nose miner, see what dumb voting gets you?

Voters in Illinois can't tell one Repug crook from the other

Liberal_Guerilla (317 posts)
Aug-27-02, 02:52 AM (ET)
Wanted!! Pictures of Bush getting his shrub polished by a teenage prostitute.
There has got to be some real bad dirt on Her Fuhrer. Out of all those years of partying and snorting that freshly imported pure CIA cocaine that daddy used to bring home, there have got to be some pics out there of little Bushie snorting coke off of some Panamanian prostitutes thigh, male, female, i'm sure he didn't care. Perhaps a pic of him at a bar drunk off his ass with his pants around his ankles and little shrub flapping about. Or Bush getting a back alley Blow job from a drag queen, with beer in hand of course. Bushie sharing an after glow moment in a love embrace with Manuel Noriega. You get the idea.
If you partied with the Fuhrer then contact me and give me the details, I will pay "big time" for pics. Though payment depends on level of filth. More dirt, more money.



These are all from today. As you can see, it's as bad as it gets on the Left side. No way can FR posters compete with this level of scurrility.
And remember, none of this gets pulled from LW sites.

As you can see, I've proved my point, CD.

34. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/27/2002 7:26:28 PM

> Somebody forgot their closing html tags again.

Zounds!

As long as it was not yours truly, anon the strutting jackboots shall step lightly and stamp instead all over this gray head.

35. concerned - 8/27/2002 7:38:15 PM

Environmentalism Kills - Again

What somebody (not me) had to say about this article:

Africa is hopeless. They have a small ruling elite that has embraced every concievable lunatic Left Wing theory to come out of western universities since the 50's and the results are a Sub Saharan Africa literally worse off than in 1900 on almost every social measure. And they show zero sign of going in another direction. They send their children to the West to be educated in nonsense and the crackpot theories of dilletantes and intellectual midgets and then they return- sieze total power- and try to implement what their coffee house profs taught them over sharing a Hashish huka one night. Sad.

What?!? Total Leftism worse than colonialism? The facts appear to indicate asserting so would be an understatement.

36. jexster - 8/27/2002 8:06:58 PM

It is unfortunate — but a misfortune entirely of the President’s creation — that the clearest interview he has given in the past week, perhaps the most widely read, and certainly the longest, was to Runner’s World about his athletic triumphs and frustrations. His running times had improved since September 11, he said. In a quotation which will dog his presidency, he confided that “It’s sad that I can’t run longer. It’s one of the saddest things about the presidency.”

No it isn’t. In a week when the President’s policy on Iraq remains stubbornly unclear, his fluency on a subject of such banality was no comfort; it was a source of national embarassment, even sadness.

Bush: A US National Embarrassment
Times of London Foreign Editor's Briefing: August 28, 2002

37. jexster - 8/27/2002 8:08:26 PM

TDascole knows about running dontcha?

BTW where are those pics of your butt in running shorts?

38. jexster - 8/27/2002 8:12:56 PM

NBC - US Allies fleeing from Bush...Egypt leads Arabs in open revolt...Saddam is about to cut his balls off and stick em Cheney's ass

And what are the BumbleFucks doing?

Trying to pass off a 12 Iraqi exiles as a National Front...giving them spin lessons at the State Department

39. Cellar Door - 8/27/2002 8:17:50 PM

As you can see, I've proved my point, CD.

No you haven't.

40. jexster - 8/27/2002 9:02:19 PM

Saletan with similar criticism of Cheney's banal & unconvincing performance...

Cheney vs. Scowcroft
How to duck the arguments against attacking Iraq

41. jexster - 8/27/2002 9:09:31 PM

"Cheney doesn't directly answer the questions put to him. He evades, obfuscates, changes the subject, and moves things around"

Talk, Bluff and Bluster

This unfamiliarity and heightened expectation, matched with the trappings of competence, gave potency to what has turned out to be the Bush administration's signature political tactic: the confidence game. The confidence man is a stock figure in American culture, originating--perhaps not coincidentally--in the boomtowns of the Old Southwest. He's the snake-oil salesman, the wildcat land speculator who mixes boundless optimism with quick talk, bluff, and bluster. The administration is led by such men

42. jexster - 8/27/2002 9:57:27 PM

Ain't this just GREAT FUN TD...so GIMME A W!

43. wonkers2 - 8/27/2002 10:50:26 PM

"Cheney obfuscates, etc."

Let's not beat around the bush. Cheney lies.

44. joezan - 8/27/2002 11:22:13 PM

Glad to see Toles gets it, jex.








...but when will you?

45. robertjayb - 8/28/2002 12:04:47 AM

I'm with Dick. Let's make war...(Maureen Dowd)

WASHINGTON — I was dubious at first. But now I think Dick Cheney has it right.

Making the case for going to war in the Middle East to veterans on Monday, the vice president said that "our goal would be . . . a government that is democratic and pluralistic, a nation where the human rights of every ethnic and religious group are recognized and protected."

O.K., I'm on board. Let's declare war on Saudi Arabia! Let's do "regime change" in a kingdom that gives medieval a bad name.

46. jexster - 8/28/2002 2:08:18 PM

JoeZ - 4 words for you

"High Crimes and Misdemeanors"

So Let's ROLL!

47. jexster - 8/28/2002 2:28:16 PM

Cows are dying, buzzards are circling, Bush and JoeZ are rolling..


The cartoons all tell the same story. [THREE CHEERS FOR DA WIZ!] Whenever they depict the President of the United States the same props reinforce the same message. We’ve got ourselves a cowboy in the White House.

George W. Bush is a trigger-happy, ten gallon-hatted, good ole boy....

Times of London

The General doesn't read history

48. jexster - 8/28/2002 2:37:16 PM

Cows die, buzzards fly, and Rummy Has a Credibilty Gap....

WASHINGTON (AP) - The senior Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee ( news - web sites) said Wednesday he wants Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to appear before the panel to present the administration's case for invading Iraq. Sen. John Warner ( news, bio, voting record), R-Va., said in a letter to the panel's chairman, Carl Levin, D-Mich., that "there appears to be a 'gap' in the facts possessed by the executive branch and the facts possessed by the legislative branch." The letter was dated Tuesday and released Wednesday.

49. concerned - 8/28/2002 2:40:14 PM

Re. 35038 -

cllrdr -

I realize that your mind is absolutely made up on the matter and, without an access of comprehension on your part, nothing anybody could post or do could convince you.

50. concerned - 8/28/2002 2:43:12 PM

Jexster is on the side of the lamebrains who believe that, absent a few months of terrorist activity, Islamic terrorism no longer poses a threat (which implies greater faith on his part in the efficacy of GWB's anti terrorism actions to date than reason or common sense would dictate). Which is why I am damned glad morons such as he aren't calling the shots.

51. jexster - 8/28/2002 2:43:55 PM

Concerned Profoundly Ignorant

The ruckus being raised by conservative Christians over the University of North Carolina's decision to ask incoming students to read a book about the Koran exhibits such profound lack of understanding of what America is about.

Cuckoo in Carolina - T. Friedman>

52. concerned - 8/28/2002 2:45:08 PM

The idiocy pump is working overtime, I see.

53. jexster - 8/28/2002 2:48:46 PM

"efficacy of GWB's anti terrorism actions to date"

LONDON (Reuters) -Osama bin Laden ( news - web sites) is firmly back in command of al Qaeda and the group is digging in for guerrilla attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan ( news - web sites), an Arab journalist with close ties to the militant's associates said.

Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the London-based daily al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper, said Tuesday al Qaeda associates recently told him the network had regained confidence after facing intense U.S. bombing and was ready to fight U.S. troops over the long haul.


Now I have no earthly idea how anything I have said about Bush's world-historical blunder in Iraq implies faith in GWB..perhaps TD will explain this to me and then perhaps explain on what basis his faith in the Moron WarLord rests.

54. jexster - 8/28/2002 2:52:23 PM

Let me try...

Lawrence Eagleburger said yesterday that he was not at all surprised that our Allies were running away from Bush's "leadership" as fast as they could because they realized that the Little Idiot was leading them towards "disaster"...


In the mangle that TD's brain, this too must be a confession of faith in GWB's leadership.

But if that is the case, why, in Richard Perle's words, are we headed for a War to Make Bush Believable?

55. jexster - 8/28/2002 3:01:13 PM

Saudi Arabia has issued a fresh warning to the United States not to attack Iraq and try to remove Saddam Hussein from power.


President Bush meets the Saudi ambassador at his Texan ranch Prince Saud al-Faysal, the Saudi foreign minister, admitted that his country had "suffered greatly from the actions of Saddam Hussein" but urged Washington not to attempt a regime change in Iraq.

The prince told BBC Radio's World at One programme: "No one can say Saudi Arabia in its policy has not given due consideration to the threat from Mr Saddam Hussein.

"Our worry, our great worry, is that if you carry this argument to its extent would be that somebody else has to dtermine the future of Iraq. This never works."

He added that only a political settlement with Baghdad, based on the readmission of United Nations arms inspectors to Iraq, would ensure stability in the Middle East.

The prince's clear warning to Washington comes a day after President George W Bush held talks with Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador, at his range in Crawford, Texas, in an attempt to enlist Riyadh's support for military strikes. Daily Telegraph

So let me be very clear what my position really is TDaschole....is and always has been...the same yesterday and today

Its all there in that last sentence...


George Bush is a geopolitical incompetent. He has allowed a clique of hawks to induce him to take a position on invading Iraq from which he cannot extract himself, one that will have nothing but negative consequences for the United States - and the rest of the world. He will find himself badly hurt politically, perhaps fatally.

56. concerned - 8/28/2002 3:03:17 PM

UNC Chancellor Moeser is a half wit, since he claims that Sells book will explicate the 9/11 acts of terrorism, which it won't, since, according to the NRO's James Bowman:

....the version of Islam given in Mr. Sells's book is bowdlerized, and many of the more bloodthirsty texts from the Koran, particularly those to do with the slaying of infidels — by which is intended most of those who will read these words — are silently omitted.

Furthermore, reading of this particularly poorlyt chosen book is virtually mandatory for UNC Frosh and transfer students, according to UNC's web site:

The Carolina Summer Reading Program is designed to introduce you to the intellectual life of Carolina. Required of all new undergraduate students (first year and transfer), it involves reading an assigned book over the summer, writing a one-page response to a particular subject, participating in a two-hour discussion, and sharing your written response with others. The goals of the program are to stimulate discussion and critical thinking around a current topic, to introduce you to academic life at Carolina, to enhance a sense of community between students, faculty and staff, and to provide a common experience for incoming students.
This year's reading is Approaching the Qur'án: The Early Revelations, translated and introduced by Michael Sells.

Of course, reading Sells' book will not stimulate critical thinking about the causes of 9/11 since discussion of the relevant sections of the Koran are missing or expurgated in this book, thus UNC is guilty of proselytization of Islam rather than disseminating the relevant facts about the religion and its history relevant to the causes of 9/11, a dereliction greatly aggravated by not providing alternate subjects for reading material or allowing the inclusion of more balanced texts on the subject.

57. jexster - 8/28/2002 3:03:17 PM

Moron yesterday, Moron today, and Moron forever

Gee TD, haven't I said that once or twice b4?

58. concerned - 8/28/2002 3:07:34 PM

Jex, I figure you're just revealing your inner self.

59. thoughtful - 8/28/2002 4:10:01 PM

Since W's tenure:
budget deficit...worse
environment...worse
civil rights...deteriorated
risk of war...higher
international accord...worse
free trade...worse
business conditions...worse
stock market...lower
global population control efforts...worse
unemployment rate...higher
consumer confidence...worse
investor confidence...worse


Hmmm...are you better off than you were 2 years ago. National policy be damned! Just so long as there's no illicit sex in the white house!

60. concerned - 8/28/2002 4:30:53 PM

thoughtful -

Are you pitching for speculative bubbles and political hackery here?

61. concerned - 8/28/2002 5:02:12 PM

Now, jex's solution to world Islamic terrorism is.....


I get the impression that he believes there is a solution. He just hasn't seen fit to tell anybody what he thinks it is. Easier to just appease the bad guys and lambast GWB.

62. wonkers2 - 8/28/2002 5:57:52 PM

Scott Ritter said on NPR this after noon that Cheney was either ignorant of the facts on Iraq's weapons programs or was lying to the American people in his speech the other day. Ritter outlined the situation as of the date the UN inspectors pulled out and said that if the Administration has evidence of change since then they should trot it out.

63. concerned - 8/28/2002 6:08:59 PM

Is there some reason that Ritter thinks Iraqi arms inspections are not important?

64. wonkers2 - 8/28/2002 6:14:46 PM

Basically, he said that they are important and effective and that the UNSCOM inspectors pretty well cleaned out Iraq's chemical, biological and nuclear programs. I am sure he is in favor of resumption of inspections. I don't recall his exact words but he said that UNSCOM was not thrown out by Iraq but pulled out because of issues over Saddam's insufficient cooperation. But he said they had accomplished quite a lot. And beyond that if nuclear facilities have been re-built they should be detectable by U.S. and other intelligence efforts. The same goes for destroyed chemical and biological facilities which were extensive.

65. joezan - 8/28/2002 6:27:44 PM

Ritter's a pathological liar. The interviewer was spoon feeding him regurgitated shit from his Frontline interview of two days ago, and Ritter still managed to give an entirely different story, in at least one case.

And neither of the stories was very believable in any case.

66. wonkers2 - 8/28/2002 8:04:46 PM

What were the two entirely different stories?

67. wonkers2 - 8/28/2002 8:09:50 PM

Ritter repeated his position tonight on the Lehrer News Hour. I found him quite persuasive.

Concerned brings up an interesting possibility--that Ritter is undercutting Bush's effort by talking invasion/regime change to bluff Saddam into agreeing to a tight inspection regime. At least I assume that was what he meant by 35062, above??? That has occurred to me before, but Bush and Cheney, et al, have convinced me they are serious.

68. joezan - 8/28/2002 10:39:12 PM

The Hussein Kamel story - in the Front Line interview he gives some long, convoluted story about the Israelis in explaining how it was that he knew everything Kamel "supposedly" revealed when he defected (that Iraq was lying, that they were still actively deceiving the inspectors, etc.). But, he at least admits there that what Kamel revealed was a blockbuster.

Then, today, all of a sudden the Kamel story was no biggie. And gone is all this nonsense about Israel, spy film, etc, etc.

But really, anyone listening to the guy today on NPR would think, WOW! This guy knows his shit - and he's so damn sure of himself - no hesitancy, no fumbling around. Everything right to the point. And Ira Flato plays right along.

It's all smoke & mirrors - he was asked the same questions two days ago (on PBS, of course). Only then, you needed a playbook to follow what he was saying, and you're still left scratching your head.

Ritter was granted an extension on his fifteen minutes of fame, and he's running to the bank with it.

He's a self-congratulating little wienie, but he's just what you lefties need right now.

So, enjoy him.

69. RustlerPike - 8/28/2002 11:52:08 PM

I wonder what they have on Ritter though. Is it just money or do they have tapes of him practicing pedophilia or something?

70. RustlerPike - 8/28/2002 11:53:34 PM

The guy's not a liar, he's a traitor and an enemy agent, from what I remember reading about him.

71. robertjayb - 8/29/2002 4:45:43 PM

72. judithathome - 8/29/2002 5:06:54 PM

Let's see, who to belive? Ritter, who has actually been to Iraq and seen things with his own eyes or...Joezan?

Hmmmmm...very tough.

73. joezan - 8/29/2002 10:38:31 PM

...Ritter, who is now on Saddam Hussein's payroll and claims everything's hunky-dorey in Iraq or... Ritter when he was on the US's payroll and claimed that the Iraqis were lying, misdirecting, stalling, concealing, deceiving, and likely still producing?

Hmmmm...not so tough - only a braindead lush, or a partisan hack should have trouble figuring this one out.

74. robertjayb - 8/29/2002 11:50:50 PM

"Just Trust Us," Bushies ask...(Paul Krugman)

75. robertjayb - 8/30/2002 12:25:54 AM

Hello...

76. robertjayb - 8/30/2002 12:27:01 AM

..again

77. robertjayb - 8/30/2002 12:32:48 AM

..and again

78. wabbit - 8/30/2002 12:33:07 AM

I've recreated this thread in hopes that this past week's error message problem will be alleviated. Please see Message # 4064 in thread 27.

79. msivorytower - 8/30/2002 7:57:13 AM

Just what this thread needed...a fresh start!

80. robertjayb - 8/30/2002 11:51:32 AM

Carpetbagger dubya's minus $12 Billion legacy---Bend over America...

AUSTIN -- Texas' state budget shortfall may hit a nightmarish $12 billion by early next year, according to a key Republican lawmaker.

"I think we could very easily be looking at $12 billion," Sen. Chris Harris of Arlington told the Houston Chronicle.

81. judithathome - 8/30/2002 1:14:32 PM

Eric Alterman Piece

On MSNBC 8/28/02 11:48am

Maj. Gen. Anthony General Zinni, Bush’s not-so-busy envoy for the administration’s Middle East war process, is also making sense. But why would the Bush Administration bother to listen to anyone who happens to be a general when it comes to war? Didn’t Dick Cheney learn everything he needed to know ducking Vietnam, when he “had other priorities in the 60s than military service”? Wasn’t George Bush boning up on the topic during that year he was AWOL from the Texas plane flying program? What the hell would a general like Zinni — or Scowcroft or Schwarzkopf, for that matter, know about the business of war?

Much better to stick with the likes of William Kristol and Richard Perle, whose military records, together when added up with that of Bush, Cheney, Trent Lott, Paul Wolfowitz, and Tom DeLay, and that of war hawks Bob Kagan, George Will, Rush Limbaugh, Marty Peretz, Charles Krauthammer, Andrew Sullivan, Jacob Heilbrunn, Christopher Hitchens, and Michael Kelly all thrown in adds up to a grand total of ahem, zero.

82. Property of Jesus - 8/30/2002 1:18:11 PM

The LA Weekly's astute John Powers, a self-described economic lefty, expresses his envy of right-wing journalism in his column this week. Powers celebrates the Weekly Standard, which "woos you by saying, 'We're having big fun over here on the right,' " over The Nation, which he mocks as "a profoundly dreary magazine" that is as "gray and unappetizing as homework."

"Reading the average Nation editorial is like trying to gobble a box of dry muesli," Powers writes. Its "headlines are warnings, not enticements," and a "scolding puritanism" drives the magazine. Meanwhile, "high spirits course through the Standard," led by "a core of enjoyable writers, notably David Brooks, Christopher Caldwell (whose article on Islam in France is one of the best things I've read this year) and David Tell, probably the country's most compelling editorialist."


That the Weekly Standard should ascend to relative greatness and leave The Nation in its dust is, for Powers, an inversion of the natural order. He writes:

Back in the '60s, the left was the home of humor, iconoclasm, pleasure. But over the last two decades, the joy has gone out of the left—it now feels hedged in by shibboleths and defeatism—while the right has been having a gas, be it Lee Atwater grooving to the blues, Rush Limbaugh chortling about Feminazis or grimly gleeful Ann Coulter serving up bile as if it were chocolate mousse, even dubbing Katie Couric "the affable Eva Braun of morning television."

83. Property of Jesus - 8/30/2002 1:20:18 PM

The image of Powers tapping covetously on the window of the right-wing funhouse is a thing of wonderment. But he isn't the only envy case out there. The Nation's Christopher Hitchens, whom Powers applauds in his piece as one of the few "memorable" Nation writers (along with Alexander Cockburn and John Leonard), consummated his right-wing envy in the '90s by switching sides on a few key issues. The left-talking, right-hitting Hitchens infuriates the left rank-and-file by excoriating Bill Clinton as "corrupt," opposing abortion, and supporting war against "Islamic fascism."

Elsewhere on the envy front we find Slate's own Michael Kinsley, who having once played a lefty on Crossfire, recently confessed his devotion to the right-tilt of Brit Hume's Special Report on Fox News. (Ordinarily, Kinsley satisfies his right-wing envy by hiring and publishing conservatives instead of watching them on television.) Mickey "kausfiles" Kaus is another local suspect, although I believe Kaus had as much fun when he was a straight-ahead lefty as he does as a neo-righty today.

Nation columnist (and MSNBC.com blogger) Eric Alterman rarely loiters far from left orthodoxy, but I sense more than a smidgen of right-wing envy in the butcher bludgeon of his work. Did Alterman, who has been known to compose measured and thoughtful copy, observe the success of cannon mouth Rush Limbaugh and say, "Yes, I can make that sort of demagogic noise from the left"? And, without a doubt, the busybodies behind Media Whores Online expose their right-wing envy by aping the methods and practices of their intellectual ancestors—Lee Atwater, Sen. Joe McCarthy, and Accuracy in Media's Reed Irvine.

84. Property of Jesus - 8/30/2002 1:22:39 PM

Obviously, the right's superior financial backing accounts for much of the envy: The Weekly Standard, owned by Rupert Murdoch, prints on glossy paper and runs fancy illustrations. The Nation, owned by a liberal gaggle including Paul Newman, ships on budget. But it's not just money that makes right writing so much fun. While the right seeks converts, trying both to persuade and entertain, the left spends its journalistic energy policing the movement. Imagine The Nation running a weekly column about nothing, called "Casual," as the Standard does. Also, conservative journalists are more likely to allow readers to enjoy a magazine article without strong-arming them into signing the ideology oath that seems to come packed with most lefty journalism. For instance, when the Standard's David Brooks profiled "Patio Man," the acquisitive consumer who haunts Home Depot looking for things to buy, he both laughed at its subject and exalted him without fear of contradiction.

Of course, lefty journalism needn't turn right to improve itself. But Powers hints that the source of The Nation's illness is the Stalinist impulse to prescribe proper attitudes toward culture, art, and journalism. A Nation writer who, say, wants to use humor or wit to make his point mustn't abuse gays, blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Ralph Nader, foreigners, women, the infirm, working stiffs, Indians, Mohammed (but Jesus is fair game), whales, or any cultural stereotype. This leaves him just one angle from which to compose his point: Stupid White Men. Such is the state of left journalism that Michael Moore has made a career out of painting and repainting this mono-mural.

85. Property of Jesus - 8/30/2002 1:24:10 PM

How the anything-goes drug-and-sex party that the cultural left threw in the '60s segued into an Amish wake featuring stern readings from the joyless work of Barbara Ehrenreich, the scoldings of Todd Gitlin, and the catechisms of Richard Goldstein is anybody's guess. Would Emma Goldman dance with these folks? Or would she make a beeline for the house on the right, which looks like a brothel in comparison to the one on the left? I await the Powers sequel.

Review in Slate.

86. Cellar Door - 8/30/2002 2:04:16 PM

Obviously the Right's financial superiority accounts for everything.

87. jexster - 8/30/2002 6:01:28 PM

If at first you don't suceed, try making the same mistake twice in one week.

Cheney had intende hsi VFW version as the launch pad for King Boi Blunder Moron's upcomng War to Make Me Credible.

Didn't quite work out to be the stemwinding rally cry he'd hoped for. What if they gave a war pep rally and nobody came? Were are those war frenzied multitudes? Even the generally bellicose WFW audience, judging from the TV clips, seemed most indifferent.


So what did that numbskull do? Gave the speech again.

Lost Turkey, moved Panty Waist Powell into open revolt. Was of this collection of numbnuts born stupid or did they have to work at it.

Can anyone name another foreign policy decision process that was as fouled as this or that produced a policy intiative more impotent, and polically damaging as in this War to Make Bush Believable?

88. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/30/2002 6:19:24 PM

This cartoon is soooo right on target . . .

89. jexster - 8/30/2002 6:32:15 PM

90. jexster - 8/30/2002 7:36:16 PM

Bush Struggles for Support War to Make Himself Believable (Iraq)

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration struggled Thursday with an increasingly skeptical Congress and international community as it tried to gain support for deposing President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites) of Iraq.

French President Jacques Chirac said he was worried President Bush ( news - web sites) might order a unilateral attack on Iraq. And a senior Democratic senator, Patrick Leahy of Vermont called for a full debate even though Bush has yet to decide how to seek regime change in Baghdad.

Even with Congress in recess the prospect of a U.S. attack raised questions and doubts. Leahy, chairman of the Judiciary Committee ( news - web sites), said "the administration should not expect to commit American troops to war with a wink and a nod to Congress."

"There should be a full debate and a vote," he said. "That is what the Constitution prescribes, and that is what the American people expect."
White House officials are wrestling with early drafts of Bush's mid-September address to the annual special session of the U.N. General Assembly. Some are arguing the president to make a forceful case for strong action against Saddam, fearing that he is losing the public-relations battle and is allowing Vice President Dick Cheney to be the administration's most visible spokesman on Iraq.

91. Cellar Door - 8/30/2002 7:59:00 PM

The Theft of the 2000 Election is "Settled Out of Court"

92. jexster - 8/30/2002 8:21:55 PM

A BUSH SPEECH!! Damn why didn't I think of that? One of those memorable Bully Pulpit offerings, complete with Orwellian backdrops and Saddam is dead meat.

Saddam has never witnessed such rhetorical power, such bold vision, such moral clarity, the sheer tactical brilliance of our Great Warrior & Lord in his Bully Pulpit. When Bush leads, moral clarity returns, nations follow, Evil Doers come to their gruesome end.

93. jexster - 8/30/2002 8:23:18 PM

Die Saddam you miserable sack of shit...the War to Make Bush Believalbe will the MUTHA of all battles ... prepare to meet Allah

94. joezan - 8/30/2002 11:10:04 PM

jex:

Truly, your talents are wasted here.

Break away, man! What effect can your words have - what good can they possibly do, yelled out as they are to the five of us who post in this thread?

You've gotta think BIG, dude!

95. jexster - 8/31/2002 12:16:03 AM

I realize that JoeZ. I hone talent here as I have since the Fray was Slate and Slate the Fray...since the days BA (before Ace) but A Cal, EricC ...Still I wouldn't mind a little more fight from the right around here. And you guys have the balls to play macho man to macho men! Wimps.

With President Bush's "faith-based" legislation facing an uncertain fate, the White House is planning an aggressive effort to implement parts of the program this fall even if Congress does not approve, administration officials said yesterday.

This you expect from someone who was not democratically elected, who regularly subverts democracies where that he doesn't like, and winks at authoritarians who suit who please....

Bush Moral Clarity

96. jexster - 8/31/2002 12:33:35 AM

JoeZ...I used to play conservative and subvert the self styled conservatives at Freeperville those who equate thoughtful conservative political philosophy with Mindless Moronworship


One day, I filtted several slice/rip/guted the lot, about 12 in 15 minutes.

And for my sins against Bush, for being an authentic conservative, they 86'ed the thread...

Freeper is a fun place to fuck with people even at the price of pretending to be conservative... house prositute to the Temple of Moron offering daily devotions to the Imbecile Diety is too much..so here I am and here you blessed., quite

97. jexster - 8/31/2002 1:17:54 AM

The "Just Trust Us" Con - Reinventions, Bushonomics, and the Fine Arts of Book Cookery

98. jexster - 8/31/2002 4:56:05 AM

Message # 56

Upfront, a confession. I have never read Sell's book and may never do. Frankly, Islam does not interest me terribly. I am quite indifferent to Islam as religion or political theory or political practice or history or culture.

Though experience says that your assertions have at least 80% manure content, even if all is true, none of it supports your conclusion ...all we can conclude is that you are full of shit and hate Moslems.


Of course, reading Sells' book will not stimulate critical thinking about the causes of 9/11 since discussion of the relevant sections of the Koran are missing or expurgated in this book, thus UNC is guilty of proselytization of Islam rather than disseminating the relevant facts about the religion and its history relevant to the causes of 9/11, a dereliction greatly aggravated by not providing alternate subjects for reading material or allowing the inclusion of more balanced texts on the subject.

If all that you assert is true, it is equally certain that your conclusion is not.

The assignment's purpose is stated clearly in your quote is "to stimulate discussion and critical thinking around a current topic, to introduce you to academic life at Carolina, to enhance a sense of community between students, faculty and staff, and to provide a common experience for incoming students."


Sells wrote a introduction to the early revelations in the Koran not comprehensive study of Islamic history, or even of the Koran. The book is about approaching the Koran through the early revelations of the founder of one of the world's major religious traditions and not through the questionable theology of a lunatic goup and its heinous acts...The current topic is Islam the book stimulates critical thinking about the early revelations in the Koran.

99. joezan - 8/31/2002 8:06:31 AM

CNN - a truly disgusting, petty little operation:

U.S. News has learned that CNN offered to preview its sensational al Qaeda training tapes, which include scenes of puppies being gassed, to the White House before they were aired.

But, as Paul Bedard will report in his Washington Whispers column in Monday’s edition, the network’s offer was conditional: It would let the White House view five minutes of the video, only if President Bush and his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, were in the room, and only if a CNN crew and White House reporter could tape their reactions after the screening.

The White House declined. "The president is not a prop for some reality show," a senior Bush aide told U.S. News.

100. joezan - 8/31/2002 8:33:51 AM

The current topic is Islam the book stimulates critical thinking about the early revelations in the Koran.

How is critical thinking about the early revelations stimulated when such major "revelations" as the Muslims' duty to hate Christians and Jews - to either force them to convert to Islam or drive them out/kill them - are left out?

I mean, isn't it the lefty creed that we must have full disclosure in order to have an accurate understanding of history?

How is it that this new-found means of stimulating critical thinking is not then also applied when the "current topic" is the founding of this country, to use just one example?

I mean, is the Prophet's dalliances with pre-teens not at least as significant as, say, Thomas Jefferson's supposed trysts with slaves?

101. Cellar Door - 8/31/2002 11:14:52 AM

Will all Mote Muslims please raise their hands?

102. RustlerPike - 8/31/2002 5:03:31 PM

Farty-fart.

(This is my way of saying 'fuck you' to the Mote bosses, who still refuse to give the Mote a facelift).

Man, I hate the world sometimes. So much stupidity. So much stubborn mulishness. So much assininity. So many lies. So much meanness just for the sake of meanness.

103. Cellar Door - 8/31/2002 6:02:21 PM

You said it!

104. Cellar Door - 9/1/2002 6:50:27 PM

Ann Gets Canned!

105. jexster - 9/1/2002 9:08:08 PM

Bush Foreign Policy Aparatus Now a Shambles - An Anarchy of the Aparats in the House of the Moron's King


Bush Iraq Policy in Disarray - A Bipartisan Consensus of Dismay and Disgust

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Already under fire from abroad, the Bush administration was criticized across the political spectrum at home on Sunday for an Iraq policy in disarray, with top advisers seemingly at odds.

The latest apparent split came as Secretary of State Colin Powell ( news - web sites) seemed to differ with Vice President Dick Cheney ( news - web sites) over the need to get U.N. inspectors back into Baghdad, and President Bush ( news -web sites) came under attack for failing to get his team in line.

"There have been nuanced disagreements from day one ... and they should be brought under control," said former Secretary of State Alexander Haig, a Republican. "He's got to lead, he's got to unify, he's got to ... start speaking with one voice."

Richard Holbrooke, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations ( news - web sites) under President Bill Clinton, said the Powell comments, coming after Cheney last week twice made high-profile pitches for action against Iraq, pointed out the administration's inability to articulate a policy. The U.S. threats against Iraq have sparked widespread opposition overseas.

"It's more of a summer of public disarray by the administration," Holbrooke told "Fox News Sunday."

Former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, who served under the president's father, former President George Bush, told NBC's "Meet the Press," "There is a disconnect here and I don't understand it."

106. concerned - 9/1/2002 9:14:17 PM

Re. 98 -


jexster -

Since you hold reason and reality in such contempt, I'm posting this for other Motiers. But, perspective cannot be attained for rational discussion without having access to all of the relevant facts. To put it another way, you cannot gain any useable perspective on the causes on 9/11 by a partial study of the early Koranic texts, particularly in light of how Muhammad contradicted them in his later writings which advocated persecuting non Muslims, for starters.

You and Moeser are both culpable of deliberately ignoring this most fundamental requirement, most probably for shallow & incredibly stupid ideological motives. You Lefty shits have a lot riding on fooling the people, which is a big reason you hate it when I set the record straight.

107. concerned - 9/1/2002 9:15:11 PM

Btw, jex, I hate no religion, but you do.

108. Cellar Door - 9/1/2002 11:27:20 PM

You Lefty shits have a lot riding on fooling the people, which is a big reason you hate it when I set the record straight.

ROTFALMAO!

109. concerned - 9/1/2002 11:40:23 PM

Things are going poorly in LW parts of the world.

110. jexster - 9/2/2002 8:12:11 AM

Things aren't going too well in Kingdom of Moronia either...

Earlier this year, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell stood at an air force base outside Rome and, answering a reporter's question, explained how President Bush negotiates foreign policy differences with U.S. allies. "He tries to persuade others why that is the correct position," Powell said. "When it does not work, then we will take the position we believe is correct."

ONE YEAR : Aftermath of the Attacks
Diplomatic Gap Between U.S., Its Allies Widens>
The REAL Bush Doctrine

Little Boi Blunder's makin a helluva mess of things and refletin mayghty po'ly own hi mommuh 'n he Poppy

111. jexster - 9/2/2002 9:21:24 AM

If you've never seen a chickenhawk being gutted, watch for an upcomign episode of David Frost on BBC America..


REGIME REACTOR DISASTER - Core Fires Spreading As Powell Burns Some Bush on BBC

112. jexster - 9/2/2002 9:24:33 AM

Ohe helluva unholy mess the US has on its hands idn't it

113. joezan - 9/2/2002 9:36:37 AM

Polls: Reno, McBride in Close Race:

MIAMI –– Janet Reno's once formidable lead in the Democratic gubernatorial primary has melted away against an upstart Tampa lawyer backed by key endorsements and an effective advertising campaign.

Two new polls released Sunday show first-time candidate Bill McBride now running neck and neck with Reno in the race for the party's nomination.

Boy! - and she hasn't passed out onstage in weeks...

114. jexster - 9/2/2002 10:07:00 AM

A Grand Old Pigpile!
Leaders Fear Simon Will Wipe Out Remains of GOP in Cali

115. jexster - 9/2/2002 10:58:51 AM

Jexster Wonk's Tips for Research on the Net

Today's Tip - Bush Foreign Policy

Keywords & Phrases - unyielding, disengaged, "widening gulf", "support has evaporated", dismissive, distorted, confusing, inconsistent, "at war with itself", adrift, estranged, ignored, unsure, "uncomfortable impasse", despair, "not helpful", "in for a rough ride", shifted, rejiggered, died, "human rights abuses", "anti-democratic practices", betrayal, diengaged, "ruputured relations", "strained ties", "fret away", unilateralism, "no real rapport", embarrassing, immodest, arrogant, disarray, cowboy, "too many ideologues", "too many people with baggage", uncertain, "twists and turns", fig leaf, unreal, teetering, "edge of failure", railing, undermining, untrustworthy

"Dallas syndrome" - A JexieWonk Favorite!
"Bevo Steershit" - Bonus Tip
"a shambles" - Double Value Bonus Tip

Sources - extensive interviews with foreign officials and experts in seven key countries in Europe, Asia and Latin America, along with interviews with administration officials, experts and diplomats in Washington

116. jexster - 9/2/2002 11:25:12 AM

TDaschole - May a Compassionately Consrvative Cankerous Camel Crap in Your Capn Crunch Cereal

Editorial Reviews
Karen Armstrong, author of the bestselling "A History Of God"
"Michael Sells has performed an invaluable service in making the beauty, spiritual energy, and compelling power of the Qur'an accessible to a Western audience for the first time."

Carl Ernst is professor of Islamic studies at the University of North Carolina and author of "The Shambhala Guide to Sufism"
"Michael Sells is to be congratulated for making a major contribution to religious literature with Approaching The Qur'An, the best version of Muslim scriptures available in English. This is an important and illuminating work, one that will be welcomed by scholars, students, believers, and all who seek to better understand Islam and its sacred scripture."

Issa J. Boullata is professor of Arabic Literature & Language at the Institute of Islamic Studies, McGill University
"Scholars and students interested in the Qur'an are indebted to Michael Sells for his outstanding contribution to a deeper understanding and appreciation of the Holy Book of Islam. His book, Approaching The Qur'An, with its scholarly introduction, its sensitive English translation of the early Suras, its insightful commentary on them, its analytical study of the auditory and literary aspects of selected Suras, its visually pleasing illustrations from the Arabic text of the Qur'an, and its accompanying CD is a veritable and enriching spiritual experience for everyone seeking a meaningful exposure to the Scripture of Islam."

117. jexster - 9/2/2002 11:27:50 AM

Ebrahim Moosa associate professorDepartment of Religious Studies at University of Cape Town

"Approaching The Qur'An is a fluent and accessible text that flawlessly communicates the religious and literary verities of the Qur'an. The reader-listener cannot help but being carried away by the ecstasy and rhapsody that both the aural and visual 'texts' produce. Both Muslim and non-Muslim audiences, beginners as well as advanced students of Islam will no doubt appreciate the many innovative facets of this extraordinary book. It is an indispensable aid for all students of religion and Islam, with Sells again at his best."

William A. Graham professor of the History of Religion and Islamic Studies Harvard University
"Approaching The Qur'An is a sensitive and unusually accessible first book on the Qur'an and its function as scripture for over one-seventh of the human race. Dr. Sells is to be congratulated for a significant contribution to English-language materials on the Qur'an."

118. jexster - 9/2/2002 11:28:13 AM

Book Description
Approaching the Qu'rn is a translation of the early suras-the short, hymnic chapters at the end of the book. A major event in religious publishing, this book captures the complexity, power and poetry of the early suras and the majesty and intimacy of the distinctive Qu'rnic voice.

These early revelations to Muhammad involve little of the political and legal detail found in the suras of his later career. Here they speak directly to every human being, regardless of religious confession or cultural background. Approaching the Qu'rn is also designed to be as accessible as possible, to offer the full lyric and literary experience to readers: Opposite each sura is a short commentary that explores some of the subtleties and context of the Qu'rnic passages; an annotated glossary explains key Qu'rnic concepts and Arabic terms with English translations; there is even a compact disc of recordings by renowned Qu'rnic reciters chanting the early suras.

119. jexster - 9/2/2002 11:30:02 AM

About the Author
Michael Sells is Emily Judson Baugh and John Marshall Gest Professor of Comparative Religion at Haverford College and chairperson of the Haverford Department of Religion, Haverford, Pennsylvania. Sells is author of "The Bridge Betrayed: Genocide in Bosnia" (University of California Press, 1997), "Mystical Languages of Unsaying" (University of Chicago Press, 1994); "Desert Tracings: Six Classical Arabian Odes" (Wesleyan University Press, 1989). He is co-editor and contributor to the "Cambridge History of Arabic Literature, Andalusia‚ (Cambridge University Press, 2000).

Try some critical thought

Allahu akbar asshole

120. jexster - 9/2/2002 12:16:17 PM

The Left and Right Have The Secretary All Wrong

But I've had it right since about March, 2000.

So I guess that makes me right but lonely?

121. jexster - 9/2/2002 12:43:25 PM

Message # 80

So youse assholes threw your trash out window and onto the world...

Eat Bevo Shit and Die Texas!

122. robertjayb - 9/2/2002 5:49:04 PM

(Houston Chronicle)

123. jexster - 9/2/2002 8:29:04 PM

124. jexster - 9/2/2002 8:55:45 PM

Bush By the Balls

Below the Beltway:
Neo-Cons vs. New York Times

By John B. Judis

Critics of the bush [Regime's] Iraq policy finally stepped forward -- and they are Republicans rather than Democrats. Former National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft, Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel and former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger argue that the United States should attempt to contain Saddam Hussein diplomatically while giving equal, if not more, weight to securing Afghanistan and achieving peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Proponents of an immediate invasion fought back vigorously -- not by advancing a clearer version of their own but by impugning the critics' credentials. Whereas The Weekly Standard branded Scowcroft an "appeaser," The Wall Street Journal identified Scowcroft's views with those of the "anti-war left." The New York Sun enumerated Scowcroft's current business ties and his founding of a "front group" that includes a "plo apologist" on its board. As for Hagel, The Wall Street Journal's editorial page accused him of trying to "grab a fast headline." And in an article titled "Sen. Skeptic (R., France)," the National Review insinuated that the Nebraskan was more European than American in his views.

125. jexster - 9/2/2002 9:09:22 PM

To put it another way, you cannot gain any useable perspective on the causes on 9/11 by a partial study of the early Koranic texts

Or to put it another way you cannot get the wacko demonizing perspective TD has unless you exalt the Theology of Muslim Wacko OBL..mainstreaming the marginal...

But of course, OBL Theology wasn't of any CONCERN to UNC or Dr. Sells and probably not the Prophet (his name be praised!) either.

126. Cellar Door - 9/2/2002 9:14:26 PM

Howie Kurtz gets down to the nitty gritty.

127. Cellar Door - 9/2/2002 9:16:00 PM

And the brilliant and beautiful Ann Coulter weighs in as well.

128. concerned - 9/3/2002 12:41:39 PM

Re. 125 -

jexster - when half assed is all he can be.

129. concerned - 9/3/2002 12:47:23 PM

This guy's half West African and he's not 'black' enough because of his skin color to get a 'diversity' job at Loyola?

Let's take the diversity programs out of the hands of the Lefty racist morons.

130. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 1:34:57 PM

"Why, of course the people don't want war ... but, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship ... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."-Hermann Goering, Nuremberg 1946.

131. jexster - 9/3/2002 1:48:40 PM

Blunder on Oh Ship of State...

On Sunday, the BBC broadcast excerpts of an interview in which Secretary of State Powell said that, as a first step to any other action, U.N. weapons inspectors should return to Iraq. This seemed to contradict Vice President Dick Cheney's assertion last week that weapons inspections would be useless. Being taken by surprise by Powell's comments, the White House rebounded quickly. "Will weapons inspectors alone guarantee that [Saddam Hussein] doesn't have weapons of mass destruction?" Fleischer said. "That's why the secretary said it's a first step." (9/3/02) Slate

Ship of fools more like it

132. thoughtful - 9/3/2002 1:48:48 PM

Don't see a link to Surowiecki's NYer article of 9/2, "Bush's Buddy Economy"...

In fact, the Bush economic policy looks a lot like what the political scientist Theodore Lowi called 'interest-group liberalism.' ...As long as the government is as big and as active as it is in the US, the incentive for interest groups--like big oil and big steel--to seek succor from it will exist. And the Bush Administration seems especially amenable to such blandishments...Mind you there's nothing inherently corrupt here. Lobbying, fixing, finagling: it's just business, of a kind. The point is that such ways of doing business have very little to do with free-market capitalism. They have more in common with crony capitalism, in which whom you know is more important than what you do and how you do it. That's the world Bush's key policymakers come out of: they've made their careers by circumventing the free market. Why expect them to suddenly embrace it?"

133. jexster - 9/3/2002 1:49:43 PM

"See, we love—we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love."—Oklahoma City, Aug. 29, 2002

134. jexster - 9/3/2002 1:49:49 PM

"See, we love—we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love."—Oklahoma City, Aug. 29, 2002

135. jexster - 9/3/2002 1:52:36 PM

136. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 2:52:39 PM

Signorile's latest

137. ronski - 9/3/2002 3:14:43 PM

A good column (and good for Ann), but exactly how does the life of every gay Californian depend on who's in Sacramento?

138. ronski - 9/3/2002 3:21:28 PM

And for the record, homophobia isn't dead yet. While you would expect Bob Barr and his opponent to try and out-gaybash each other in the GA primary Barr lost, Norm Coleman has been threatening to try and rescind Minnesota's gay rights law, one that has been on the books for years. Paging Rask.

139. ronski - 9/3/2002 3:23:44 PM

And while pundits have been writing that the White House secretly wants to see the Democrats win in the midterms, so Bush can triangulate and win in 2004, it is not looking all that good for the Democrats when it comes to the Senate. The Torch seems genuinely in trouble, and so is Carnahan.

140. glendajean - 9/3/2002 3:35:05 PM

ronski -- who is the Torch? Who is Norm Coleman?

141. ronski - 9/3/2002 3:41:38 PM

Coleman is running on the GOP line for Senator in Minn. When he ran for Governor, he said he would overturn the state's gay rights law. And he's a former Democrat, I believe. Gay bashing is still popular in many GOP circles.

The Torch is NJ's Bob Torricelli. A lot of people still expect him to hold on to his Senate seat, in the end. He is the incumbent, the state is pretty liberal these days, and he has tons of money.

But he's tied in the polls with a lackluster Republican because of his ethics problems. A few weeks ago, when he visited a senior citizen center (he is running ads about prescription drug benefits right now), many of the nice elderly women walked out.

142. glendajean - 9/3/2002 3:51:14 PM

Oh, wasn't Coleman the former mayor of St. Paul, and he said he was too conservative for the Democrats so he switched parties? Do you think he will use gay-bashing as part of his platform? I cannot imagine that would work well in Minnesota.

Sorry, I've never heard of Torriceli as being calledThe Torch. But he is a crook and he shouldn't be elected. I agree with the little old ladies.

143. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 3:57:31 PM

Gay-bashing can't play across-the-board. For it to work you've got to preach to the choir. Where it loses is with straight voters repelled by any politician who would appeal to prejudice of any kind. This would include voters who aren't really all that conversant with gay issues.

All this chatter about who wants who to win and why is just chatter. Everything is up in the air in this election cycle. Especially because many voters are still smarting over the Presidential appointment.

144. jexster - 9/3/2002 4:00:38 PM

Stocks Continue Tailspin Amid Uncertainty Over Economy
By JONATHAN FUERBRINGER
Stocks plunged today as new data showed that the manufacturing sector is still very weak, heightening investor concerns about the recovery.


Can't too many of these stories for too long now can we?

What oh what to do about this?

145. glendajean - 9/3/2002 4:11:24 PM

cellar -- since the mid 90s, it many parts of the country, it has been painful to gay bash publicly. Wasn't the last big public episode Trent Lott's kleptomaniac comment? I cannot imagine if this guy is preaching to the choir in Minnesota that gay people are bad, etc, that it will fly in a general election there. Particularly if people are reminded of those comments. Like the fellow in California, Simon, his words will come back to haunt him.

I agree with you that things are up in the air about the election, particularly since war (or another war) and the economy have the effect of boostering politics one direction or another.

I am very disappointed in the Democrats right now and their total absence from talking about the war with Iraq. (see my rant in The Inferno). Their timidity in being a national voice, or to even question the President's policy towards going to war without allies is striking.

Bush may be right about attacking Iraq alone. But he should answer questions about it to the public, imo. In this case, questions should be coming from the Democrats. That's the the role of the opposition party, but they are sitting it out.

146. thoughtful - 9/3/2002 4:25:46 PM

I dunno gj, since the dems have stayed quiet, more and more gopers are coming out against attacking Iraq...maybe it's not so good for the dem party, but good for the nation. If dems spoke up it might unite the gopers and force us into a war that many on either side of the aisle think is premature at best.

147. glendajean - 9/3/2002 4:28:15 PM

I wouldn't be as upset if they publicly said "yes, we support the president's policy towards Iraq and here is why." But to say nothing, to ask nothing, seems to me to put one out of the game.

But from a strategy standpoint, you may be right.

148. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/3/2002 4:30:07 PM

Thoughtful, you do your name honor!

149. thoughtful - 9/3/2002 4:43:34 PM

thanks wiz.

But maybe gj is right. With dodd and lieberman both talking about running if perpetu-al gets out of the way, then it would seem the dem silence reflects a lack of leadership rather than a well-designed strategy.

(Wasn't it Will Rogers who said he doesn't belong to any organized political party...he's a democrat?)

If the dems have nothing better to offer to oppose the marionette, expect another toss-up come 2004.

150. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/3/2002 4:53:37 PM

tf- Dodd & Lieberman have been bought and sold--I have no hope of them finding their backbones; sometimes however, nothing vexes the opposition more than silence--especially if there's a good plan afoot.

151. joezan - 9/3/2002 5:03:24 PM

DREAM ON, WIZ!

152. thoughtful - 9/3/2002 5:07:46 PM

WoW, You may be right, but i suspect it is a plan by default. Then again, if it works....

153. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/3/2002 6:04:37 PM

tf- Why distract the press from all of Junior-Jerkoff's stumbles and blunders?

By the size of JoeZero's type and color, I'd say he's scared.

154. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 6:20:06 PM

Coming soon to a theater near you.

155. judithathome - 9/3/2002 6:29:20 PM

Stock market sinks 350 today. Hear that, Joey? That's your retirement flushing more of its total down the toilet.

156. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/3/2002 6:41:39 PM

Cellar- It looks good--I can't wait to see that!

Cuomo dropped out in NY.

j2h- And the rela estate bubble expands somore!

157. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/3/2002 6:42:32 PM

j@h!

158. judithathome - 9/3/2002 6:51:33 PM

And Texas has a 12 Billion dollar shortfall...Bushanomics.

159. concerned - 9/3/2002 6:51:57 PM

What the hell are they telling the lumpenproletariat in Europe?

From de Volksrant online:

I personaly think Bush is a greater scumbag than Osama bin Laden. And these are the reason why:

1. The American gun-laws. Without the support from the arms-industry, Bush even would not be president.
2. Bush seems to value the life of an American more than those of other people
3. Bush thinks that oil is more important than the lifes of humans and peace, otherwise he would retreat his troops from Saudi-Arabia. These troops have got no business there.
4 Bush manipulates his people by showing the Osama video a few hours after retreating from the ABM treaty. This will draw attention from this unthought and selfcentred deed.
5 Bush is hindering every international conferention. (Racism, Biochemical weapons, Observers in Israel, Kyoto etc.) It seems that Bush is not acting in the best interests of the world.

To be short: Osama is an angel compared to the spoiled brat Bush that alway wants to have his way, even if it's against the will of everyone else.

Go Osama

Real jexsterfare here.

160. concerned - 9/3/2002 6:53:21 PM

More:

Today it's monday 17 december. Again I have spend a weekend angering myself over the egoism of Bush and America.

What is the case now of the slef-centrism of the US: the US has used it's veto against a proposal to send observers to the Middle East, because in this proposal the UN states a critical tone against Israel. And the UN is right about it.

When will the US stop with disrupting and stopping playing the boss? Europe, the Arabic League and the UN not seem to have any influence over the US policies.

There is only one solution, and it is named Osama bin Landen. Let him be in Pakistan, please, so he can continue his attacks on America. Attacks on governementbuildingss, multinationals and especialy George W. Bush. If America doesn't want to listen to the opinion of others, they msu suffer the consequences, and bleed for their egoistic politics. Bush has done enough disrupting and boycotting (ABM, Kyoto, Observers in Israel, Conference on racism in Durban, etc.)

It won't take long before Al-Qe'ada is no longer the only enemy of the US. Jihad, Hezbollah, Hamas..., they will follow, and tehy are right. What do the American troops still have to search in Saudi-Arabia? Protecting peace? I don't think so! Accept for the oil they have got no business there. Get out!

I am already longing to see the first political and economic institutions of America will be hit by attacks and thus paying for their criminal deeds. I can only say" Go Osama, give America a lesson, because they evedently did not learn from 9/11.

Looks like Eurolefties are doing a great job handing their continent off to Islamic whackjobs.

161. concerned - 9/3/2002 7:53:54 PM

Missing Diversity of Ideas on America's Campuses

excerpted:

The liberal academy of the 1950s and 1960s, whose ideals were shaped by Charles Eliot and Matthew Arnold and whose mission was "the disinterested pursuit of knowledge" is no more. Leftists tenured after the 1960s first transformed these institutions into political battlegrounds and then redefined them as "agencies of social change." In the process, they first defeated and then excluded peers whom they perceived as obstacles to their politicized academic agendas.


The professor went on: "This year we had an opening for a scholar of Asian history. We had several candidates but obviously the most qualified one was from Stanford. Yet he didn’t get the job. So I went to the chair of the search committee and asked him what had happened. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘you’re absolutely right. He was far and away the most qualified candidate and we had a terrific interview. But then we went to lunch and he let out that he was for school vouchers."

In other words, if one has a politically incorrect view on K-12 school vouchers, one must be politically incorrect on the Ming Dynasty too. This is almost a dictionary description of the totalitarian mentality.

The present academic monolith is an offense to the spirit of free inquiry. The hiring practices that have led to the present situation are discriminatory and illegal. They violate the Constitution, which prevents hiring and firing on the basis of political ideas and patronage laws that bar state institutions from servicing a particular political party. Yet university administrators have not shown any inclination to address this problem, or to reform the practices that perpetuate it. Nor have self-identified "liberal" professors who are themselves the source of the problem.

162. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 8:59:31 PM

David Horowitz: The Embodiment of Serious Scholarship

163. jexster - 9/3/2002 9:31:46 PM

The Hon. Nancy Pelosi

Dear Rep. Pelosi:

In recent weeks, several prominent Republicans, among them Brent Scowcroft, your colleague Dick Armey, Lawrence Eagleburger, and James Baker have boldly and decisively spoken out against Bush plans to invade Iraq. Over that same period, prominent Democrats have remained embarrasingly silent. As a Democrat and constituent I am ashamed, and I am angry.

Over the next days and weeks, you will be meeting the President and leading House deliberations. I urge you in the strongest terms to speak out; to put Bush his proof, and to examine justifications that have thus far amount to nothing more than deceptiive pretexts for a gravely immoral adventurism.

The consequences for the US and the world should Bush's schemes remain unchecked are grave indeed. Perhaps you read Immanuel Wallerstein's OpEd in Los Angeles Times last April His opening parapaph has, in the event, turn out to be eerily prophetic:

"George Bush is a geopolitical incompetent. He has allowed a clique of hawks to induce him to take a position on invading Iraq from which he cannot extract himself, one that will have nothing but negative consequences for the United States - and the rest of the world. He will find himself badly hurt politically, perhaps fatally. And he will rapidly diminish the already declining power of the US in the world."


No citizen, no representative can anything to do with any unprovoked, preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation unless the following criteria met. In no case, has the Bush admistration advanced a justification for war that comes close to satisfying a single one.

164. jexster - 9/3/2002 9:32:39 PM

The criteria are for just war are:

the damage that is lasting, grave, and certain;

all other means must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

the prospects of success must be significant;

the use of arms must not produce evils graver than the evil to be eliminated, and

the decision for war must be made by legitimate authority, in this case, both the United States Congress and the Security Council of the United Nations.

Please note that Bush's promise to "consult" with the UN and Congress is insufficient. You must not be a party to any consultation without a sure and certain committment that the Administration will seek not only congressional approval but Security Council sanction for any Bush schemes to enforce UN resolutions.

As the decision for war is yours, so too the responsibity for its consequences.

Thank you very much.

John C. McC

San Francisco, CA

cc: Alice B. Toklas Democratic Club

165. ronski - 9/3/2002 9:45:23 PM

Connie,

Please, re: Message # 159, jexster isn't that stupid.

I mean, he's a leftist, but he's not a European leftist.

166. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 10:11:02 PM

Molly Ivins Explains It All To You

In words that even connie can understand.

If he thinks hard enough.

167. ronski - 9/3/2002 10:36:20 PM

Memo to Molly:

Duplicitous Dictator is not what Cheney is warning us about.

Frying an American city, is.

Check the transcripts.

Also, see Rumsfield, Blair and the Kuwaiti government.

Get back to me.

168. joezan - 9/3/2002 11:17:01 PM

A pretty interesting joint American/EU poll regarding attitudes toward invading Iraq, whether the US shares any responsibility for the 9-11 attacks (three guesses what the sanctimonious scumbag Euros think), and lastly - for (unintended) comic relief, US and Euro thoughts about how many Big Boys the world needs.

169. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 11:19:36 PM

And who gave him the frying pan, ronski?

Dick Cheney.

170. Cellar Door - 9/3/2002 11:37:04 PM

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse for Bill Simon -- THEY DO!

171. Cellar Door - 9/4/2002 11:22:37 AM

In a nutshell.

172. judithathome - 9/4/2002 11:32:28 AM

In other words, if one has a politically incorrect view on K-12 school vouchers, one must be politically incorrect on the Ming Dynasty too. This is almost a dictionary description of the totalitarian mentality.

But I suppose you think it's fine to dump candidates for the local school boards who think teaching that God didn't create the world in 7 days and that the world is older than 4,000 years is heresy. There is stupidity on all sides, Concerned, not just on the ones you think are leftist.

173. jexster - 9/4/2002 11:58:51 AM

The Boi Blunder Chronicles - From Decision Process, Internal Anarchy - Core Meltdown Continues- Powell Cites 'Real' Divide Internally on Iraq Policy

In the US Senate - Bipartisan Concern Over Boi Blunder Bungling

174. Cellar Door - 9/4/2002 12:31:44 PM

""I do believe, with all sincerity, and with every patriotic fiber of my being that these people are fascists at heart. And I'm talking about the Italian model of fascism. They believe that the government should be run by a business elite, on corporate lines, that any kind of interference should be dealt with, in whatever way they can deal with it. They're obsessed with their own power, they have utter comtempt for democracy, they have utter contempt for the constitution and if you continue to read all of what Bush says these days... you can see the evidence that came from his own mouth."

-- Mark Crispen Miller

175. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:51:14 PM

t is suddenly de rigueur for US officials to say, "Saddam Hussein gassed his own people." They are evidently referring to the Iraqi military's use of chemical weapons in the Iraqi Kurdistan town of Halabja in March 1988 during the Iran-Iraq War, and then in the area controlled by the Teheran-backed Kurdish insurgents after the cease-fire in August.

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Dilip Hiro
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Since Baghdad's deployment of chemical arms in war as well as peace was known at the time, the question is: What did the US government do about it then? Nothing. Worse, so strong was the hold of the pro-Iraq lobby on the Republican administration of President Ronald Reagan, it succeeded in getting the White House to frustrate the Senate's attempt to penalize Baghdad for violating the Geneva Protocol on Chemical Weapons, which it had signed. This led Saddam to believe that Washington was firmly on his side--a conclusion that paved the way for his invasion of Kuwait and the 1991 Gulf War, the full consequences of which have yet to play themselves out.

Poisonous Gas About Iraq's Poison Gas - Never Realized They Could Stack Longhorn Pies That High!

176. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:56:53 PM

President pledges to seek congressional approval before attacking Iraq and tells U.S. allies their "credibility is at stake" as they decide whether to back his plans.

No his credibilty is at stake...what a pathetic joke ... what an unprecedented mess of a strategery...what a slimy load

177. jexster - 9/4/2002 1:14:02 PM

Blair Fails to Stem Growing Tide of Opposition to War to Make Bush Believable - Germany Plans to Withdraw WOT Support

Bumblefucks 'r Bush

178. jexster - 9/4/2002 2:25:28 PM

Why America's place in the world will shift -- for the worse -- if we attack Iraq

179. jexster - 9/4/2002 2:49:30 PM

Same Old Compassionate Conservative Con

Under intense pressure from the religious right, GOP candidate for governor Bill Simon on Tuesday dropped his backing for a Gay Pride Day and softened his support for several other gay rights issues.

Simon's reversal came a week after the Los Angeles businessman backed the idea of a statewide Gay Pride Day, said he would not challenge current laws on gay adoption and supported domestic partnership laws as long as they weren't based on sexual orientation.

Simon's positions on those gay rights issues were detailed in a questionnaire to the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay Republican group.

But, in the latest misstep for his campaign, Simon said Tuesday that he never saw the questionnaire released last week that endorses some gay rights, although his signature is on the document.

180. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:06:09 PM

In the US Senate - Bipartisan Concern Over Boi Blunder Bungling

President Bush has yet to make a compelling case for military action against Iraq, senators of both parties said yesterday as they returned to Washington with serious questions about the administration's war plans.

Several, including Minority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.), who earlier had questioned the need for congressional authorization of force against Iraq, said they believe the administration should seek Congress's approval before an attack is launched.

Some also said the United States should try again to get Iraq to accept United Nations weapons inspectors before resorting to military action. While Iraq would probably balk, senators said, the effort could help build international support for eventual U.S. action

The Just War Theory is nothing more, nothing less than a test of justification, designed to seperate sheep from goat, wheat from chaff, Truth from the fanasties of frenzied minds.

Those who scorn the test are, invariably, scorning the failure of their proferred justification to pass it. For everyone has a justification, but not everyone has a justification worth serious consideration.

181. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:13:56 PM

Sen. Susan M. Collins (Maine), a GOP moderate, made a similar assessment. "For the United States to launch a preemptive strike on Iraq requires the administration to present a compelling case," she said. "I am still waiting to hear that case."

Of course, the Chaotic Lady couldn't be less bothered.

182. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:25:01 PM

Stupid Questions, Stupid People
Be Thee Legion or Be Thee Lamebrain?
Copyright 1998 Nationwide News Pty Limited
THE DAILY TELEGRAPH


December 18, 1998, Friday BODY:
The US and British air strikes against Iraq could spell the end of the UN Special Commission to disarm Baghdad, diplomats at the UN headquarters in New York said today.

UN Security Council diplomats indicated that even if the UN agency charged with Iraqi disarmament survives, its chairman, Australian Richard Butler, cannot.

"Butler is finished," a council diplomat said today, referring to open calls from Russia and China for his resignation after protesting his decision to evacuate arms inspectors from Iraq without council approval. France "will not miss him," said a western diplomat who also noted that the outspoken Australian diplomat had "lost the support of the (UN) secretary general."

December 18, 1998, Friday, Home Edition - LAT

SECTION: Part A; Page 17; Foreign Desk
BODY:
For the second night, 134 U.N. staffers left behind when weapons inspectors pulled out of Baghdad earlier this week took shelter Thursday in a converted hotel on the outskirts of the Iraqi capital as missiles shook nearby streets.

The workers retreated to the hotel's basement, leaving only one person to answer the telephone on a floor above.

"What can I say? There was very strong bombing," the staff member told The Times during a pause in the action. "It is very close to the building." Late Thursday night in New York, a decision was made to evacuate most of the staff members. Just after dawn today in Baghdad, a small convoy of buses pulled up in front of the hotel. A staff member in Baghdad said about 105 people boarded the buses for the long trip across the desert to Jordan.

183. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:45:42 PM

Copyright 1998 The Washington Post
The Washington Post



December 18, 1998, Friday, Final Edition

NAME: RICHARD BUTLER The third is that Butler ordered his inspectors to evacuate Baghdad, in anticipation of a military attack, on Tuesday night -- at a time when most members of the Security Council had yet to receive his report.


Copyright 1998 Newsday, Inc.
Newsday (New York, NY) (New York, NY)


United Nations - As bombs began falling on Baghdad yesterday, 133 UN humanitarian workers were huddled in Canal Hotel, a complex on the outskirts of Baghdad that serves as the UN's headquarters in Iraq. UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan had decided not to evacuate them yesterday despite warnings from the acting U.S. ambassador to the UN, Peter Burleigh, that they were at risk.

But their fate went unmentioned just before 5 p.m. yesterday as ashen-faced diplomats rushed out of the Security Council chamber to call their capitals when word of the attack filtered into a closed meeting. On the way, they lingered before hallway televisions carrying green-tinted images of anti-aircraft fire over Baghdad.
"I did get a call from Ambassador Burleigh saying that they are asking U.S. personnel in the region to leave. And they had also advised chief arms inspector Richard Butler to withdraw UNSCOM, and Butler and I spoke," Annan said yesterday, explaining "we have grouped all of them, for their own safety, in one location in Baghdad."

CAT Scan of JoeZ's Brain on drugs



"jex you are such a pathetic liar" - Freaky, Fried Z-Man

184. jexster - 9/4/2002 12:48:13 PM

Counterbattery that PellePickelhaube might envy

185. jexster - 9/4/2002 1:01:06 PM

NOW, they're trying to think...maybe

DUH!
U.S. Looking at Use of 'Coercive Inspections'

What a clownish amateur, what a cowboy we have!

186. jexster - 9/4/2002 2:24:58 PM

Why America's place in the world will shift -- for the worse -- if we attack Iraq

187. jexster - 9/4/2002 2:40:08 PM

Ronksi...I think its time for JoeZ to substitute fact for slander...he asked for it, and I give it to him because we are the Borg

The United Nations, international law, just-war theory -- it is not hard to imagine the impatience with which policy makers will greet arguments made on these bases

The very point I made WRT the Lady's Chaotic blather in Message # 244

188. judithathome - 9/4/2002 3:06:37 PM

Bush is calling on the world to realize Saddam has "crawfished" and "weedled out of" things he was supposed to do...if he expects the world to recognize this, maybe he should speak in words the world might have a chance of understanding.

189. jexster - 9/4/2002 3:14:35 PM

I know what crawfish are. I have dodged many a water moccasin in my day as waded through the swamp to place and retrieve my nets.

I cawfished.

I don't quite see what that has to do with Saddam. If on the other hand the boi blunder had in mind the way a crawfish walks, it is a description that fits Bush not Hussein.

Crawfish walk backwards.

So load up on the Dixie beer, crawfish boil, corn and potatoes....and

Laissez les bon temps roulez!!!

190. jexster - 9/4/2002 3:17:00 PM

You can never appreciate what low life comes from in Texas unless you live next door.

"If you don't have any ambitions, the minimum-wage job isn't going to get you to where you want to get, for example. In other words, what is your ambitions? And oh, by the way, if that is your ambition, here's what it's going to take to achieve it."—Speech to students in Little Rock, Ark., Aug. 29, 2002

191. jexster - 9/4/2002 3:17:28 PM

Sorry judith, robert

192. concerned - 9/4/2002 3:22:49 PM

Here's a poem after Jexster's own little Ummah loving heart:

The Ape
By Nasir Thabet


An ape is ruling this world
From Washington to China.
It doesn't matter,
But
The Arabs make him the prophet of the age.
Prostitution takes many forms.
* * *
The Arabs said: "He will soon become a human being."
I said: "You can count years and centuries."
* * *
They made me lose my temper when they said:
"What a just man!"
I shouted like a madman:
"Does he even know the language of reason and law?"
* * *
He [the ape] told them that day he would deliver his great speech.
They sat [waiting] like children for years in their chairs...
The accursed ape did not come.
They said: "It won't take long, he has reasons that we don't know."
And [still] the accursed ape did not come.
They left all their honor in the toilet
And kept waiting for wisdom [to issue] from the madman.
They abandoned their children, and their subjects' predicament, and their Honor.
But the accursed ape did not come.

193. concerned - 9/4/2002 3:23:04 PM

Days passed
They were heavier to bear than Sharon.
He said: "The pressure on Zion has intensified."
Is it conceivable that silly children with stones will upset him.
While he [Sharon] is the poor wronged one?
Death to the children of Palestine,
Death to you, all the Arabs of the world.
You should be like mules kicking with joy.
Your honor is cheaper than a can of sardines.
O Arabs of the world,
When Sharon spits on you…
He is the wronged one,
And you – despite your feebleness – you are "terrorists."
They said, with a stupid smile over their mustaches:
"What shall we do with the spittle of your poor, pampered Sharon?"
"Let it be a gift for the holiday, a charity, some debt."
* * *
The [Arab] leaders have been asked:
"Your excellencies, what do you think of the ape's speech?"
They tremble with joy:
"It is most wonderful in its honesty and emotion,
" It is most eloquent in its vocabulary and lofty style.
"Thanks to the accursed ape."

194. robertjayb - 9/4/2002 4:46:27 PM

...just couldn't resist---I'm so ashamed.

195. judithathome - 9/4/2002 4:50:47 PM

Don't be...it's priceless!

196. magoseph - 9/4/2002 4:51:25 PM

Difficult to look at that woman, what with her big Adam's apple going up and down her throat, it's repulsive. Of course, I hate her.

197. judithathome - 9/4/2002 5:14:45 PM

Her looks are truly awful but not half as bad as what comes out of her mouth. She has a crabbed heart, if she has one at all.

198. wonkers2 - 9/4/2002 8:16:37 PM

I'm getting a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that Bush is actually going to invade Iraq and that the Democrats don't have the guts to try to stop him.

199. Cellar Door - 9/4/2002 8:20:16 PM

This just in.

200. wonkers2 - 9/4/2002 8:37:35 PM

Very interesting. Why doesn't that info surprise me?

201. joezan - 9/4/2002 10:51:08 PM

Gee - I couldn't say, wonk.

But does this WP story surprise you?

...It relies in part on a newspaper article published July 21, 2001, in Al Nasiriyah, 185 miles southwest of Baghdad. The law firm provided The Associated Press with a copy of the article written in Arabic and an English translation.

According to the lawsuit, a columnist writing under the byline Naeem Abd Muhalhal described bin Laden thinking "seriously, with the seriousness of the Bedouin of the desert, about the way he will try to bomb the Pentagon after he destroys the White House."

The columnist also allegedly wrote that bin Laden was "insisting very convincingly that he will strike America on the arm that is already hurting," a possible reference to the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.

202. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/4/2002 10:58:23 PM

GIDDYAP!

203. joezan - 9/4/2002 11:11:37 PM

France against publishing secret documents on Iraq's weapons programs

France said it was against publishing top-secret evidence on Iraq's alleged development of weapons of mass destruction, saying the public arena was not the place to wage such a campaign.

Awwww - wouldn't want the entire world to have the evidence of your spinelessness tossed in its face, now would you? And from a country whose bestselling book is about how the US itself blew up the Pentagon in order to inflame anti-Islamism.

Germany Rebuffs Call to Back U.S.

"We have absolutely no reason to change our well-founded position. Under my leadership, Germany will not take part in an intervention in Iraq."

Not even waiting for the evidence to come in before he makes a blanket rejection of support.

Spineless bastards.

Chickenshit, soft, limp-wristed little fucks.

Who do they think they're fooling? These envious little Euroshits are not nearly as worried about supporting America as they are about the Islamist backlash that would hit them if they did.

Eh - fuckem.

Like I said - we don't need them. We never have - let's stop pretending.

204. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/5/2002 12:34:26 AM

Joe you dope, you'll never get it . . .

Why do so many foreigners reject the evil perpetrators of 9/11 but still dislike America? It's because, while we have the best system of governance, we are not always at our best in how we act toward the world. Because we want to drive big cars, we support repressive Arab dictators so they will sell us cheap oil. Because our presidents want to get votes, they readily tell the Palestinians how foolishly they are behaving, but they hesitate to tell Israelis how destructive their West Bank settlements are for the future of the Jewish state. Because we want to consume as much energy as we please, we tell the world's people they have to be with us in the war on terrorism but we don't have to be with them in the struggle against global warming and for a greener planet.

The point, class, is that while evil people hate us for who we are, many good people dislike us for what we do. And if we want to win their respect we need to be the best, most consistent and most principled global citizens we can be.

Assigned readings: The U.S. Constitution, Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points speech and the Declaration of Independence.

[Tom Friedman]

205. jexster - 9/5/2002 1:11:07 AM

FOREIGN POLICY CHERNOBYL - Bush Regime Core Fires Continue - Powell in Open Battle With Krusty the Klown

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - Secretary of State Colin Powell ( news - web sites), breaking weeks of silence on Iraq, said on Tuesday he was exploring proposals that would restore U.N. arms inspections despite what he called "lots of differences" inside the United States over what the administration should do.

Powell told reporters aboard his plane to Johannesburg that inspectors could play a part in disarming Iraq and that his position on this was that of President Bush ( news - web sites).

Vice President Dick Cheney ( news - web sites) said last week that the U.N. arms inspectors, who have not visited Iraq for four years, could "provide no assurance whatsoever" and could even add to the danger by giving a false sense of comfort.

Cheney and other hawks in the Bush administration say Washington has no choice but to overthrow Iraqi President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites), on the grounds that he might use weapons of mass destruction against the United States.

Bumble on!

206. jexster - 9/5/2002 1:14:04 AM

Message # 203
Yea you got that right Little Legionnaire of the Boy Blunder -

That's a big GO FUCK YOURSELF you little whack job....grab your family -your gasmasks - off to the river jordan with your sick little ass

207. jexster - 9/5/2002 1:15:26 AM

Coon skin caps & M-16's and send us a picture of your bloody brood so we can have a laugh

208. Wombat - 9/5/2002 9:05:45 AM

I wonder whether Jexter's perfervid tone would change any if it was the Clinton Administration that was considering war against Iraq.

209. Wombat - 9/5/2002 9:07:48 AM

Actually, it wouldn't. It would just be directed against Saddam.

210. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/5/2002 11:56:38 AM

211. jexster - 9/5/2002 12:11:58 PM

Blair in Deep Shit - British Poodle Under Bi-Partisan Fire for Visit to the Boy Blunder

"The leaders of the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats have called on the Government to recall Parliament in order to discuss action in Iraq. Philip Webster, Political Editor explains what purpose this would serve.

212. jexster - 9/5/2002 12:22:54 PM

For those suckers and little children scared by Krusty the Klown's Crap About The Big Bad Boogey Man of Baghdad

CBS News has learned that barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq - even though there was no evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks... With the intelligence all pointing toward bin Laden, Rumsfeld ordered the military to begin working on strike plans. And at 2:40 p.m., the notes quote Rumsfeld as saying he wanted 'best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H.' - meaning Saddam Hussein - 'at same time. Not only UBL' - the initials used to identify Osama bin Laden. Now, nearly one year later, there is still very little evidence Iraq was involved in the Sept. 11 attacks. But if these notes are accurate, that didn't matter to Rumsfeld. 'Go massive,' the notes quote him as saying. 'Sweep it all up. Things related and not.'"

The War to Make Bush Believable: A Crock of Crackpot Crap

213. jexster - 9/5/2002 12:27:04 PM

214. jexster - 9/5/2002 12:30:06 PM

I have... chosen this time and this place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth is too rarely perceived - yet it is the most important topic on earth: world peace. What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children - not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women, not merely peace in our time but peace for all time... The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war." John F. Kennedy

215. jexster - 9/5/2002 12:57:13 PM

It is now obvious & beyond serious doubt that the Bush Regime's bloody schemes have nothing whatever to do with weapons of mass destruction, UN Resolutions, the suffering Iraqi people, or even the much ballyhoo'ed and bandied about pretext "he gassed his own people" 15 years ago.

I won't hold my breath waiting but the course for Congess is clear - hearings should pass quickly by the Bush pretexts and get to the REAL motive...call Rummy, Cheney, call Richard Perle and that Larouche whack job Perle hired..and cut to the chase...

Expose the con

216. jexster - 9/5/2002 12:58:57 PM

Its not for nothin that James Baker, Larry Eagleburger, Anthony Zinni, Norman Schwartzkopf, and Brent Scowcroft have been screaming to high heaven for the rot stinks to high heaven

217. joezan - 9/5/2002 1:44:54 PM

Schwartzkopf's screaming to high heaven?

218. jexster - 9/5/2002 2:16:00 PM

The Boy Blunder, King Moron I "I will be explaining to the American people why Saddam is such a threat to world peace"

That's gonna take a mayghta lot o splainin since the only imminent threat of war comes from that Bloody Blithering Idiot...

Speakin of The Bloody and Blithering...mornin Z you little fundie freak!

219. jexster - 9/5/2002 2:18:43 PM

Bonjour Z Freak!

220. joezan - 9/5/2002 2:29:38 PM

Gee - do you suppose it was something I said?

221. judithathome - 9/5/2002 2:41:01 PM

Joezan, can you give the definition of "crawfished" as Bush used it yesterday? I mean, how has Saddam "crawfished and weedled"? I seriously want to know what he meant by those words.

222. joezan - 9/5/2002 3:01:38 PM

Crawfished = back-tracked
Weedled = obfuscated

Anything else I can help you with?

223. judithathome - 9/5/2002 3:10:08 PM

Weedled may be in your dictionary but it's not in mine.

Nice that the handbook from the Republican party gives you all these answers.

224. joezan - 9/5/2002 3:30:32 PM

Actually, both expressions are much older even than yourself, Judy.

225. joezan - 9/5/2002 3:31:02 PM

Main Entry: whee·dle
Pronunciation: 'hwE-d&l, 'wE-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whee·dled; whee·dling /'(h)wEd-li[ng], '(h)wE-d&l-i[ng]/
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: circa 1661
transitive senses
1 : to influence or entice by soft words or flattery
2 : to gain or get by wheedling
intransitive senses : to use soft words or flattery

226. joezan - 9/5/2002 3:33:39 PM

Well - somewhat different from what I'd thought, but entirely appropriate to GWB's context and Saddam's behavior - especially of late.

Perhaps our esteemed American journalistas (and their bootlicking Motie minions) would do well to learn to spell, eh?

227. thoughtful - 9/5/2002 3:34:53 PM

That's interesting...exactly when did hussein have anything flattering to say about the US? Ack! Don't tell me the pres misspoke when he used the word "wheedle"! How uncharacteristic of him!

228. jexster - 9/5/2002 3:36:26 PM

• Bloody Bush bumbles
  
  
• Stocks tumble 125 on Iraq war fears
  
  
• CAIRO (Reuters) - Arab League chief Amr Moussa said Thursday a strike against Iraq would "open the gates of hell" in the Middle East, and urged Baghdad to readmit weapons inspectors in coordination with the United Nations ( news - web sites).
  
  
  

229. joezan - 9/5/2002 3:37:49 PM

Who (besides yourself) said anything about flattering the US.

He has been wheedling the leaders of Russia, Iran, and Afghanistan, to name just a few.

230. judithathome - 9/5/2002 3:46:18 PM

Perhaps our esteemed American journalistas (and their bootlicking Motie minions) would do well to learn to spell, eh?

Well, had he used the word WHEEDLE, I'd concede your point but he very distinctly said WEE-dle. Face Joey, you have an illiterate on your hands and yet you defend his every utterance.

And we shall learn to spell just as soon as your boy learns to speak.

231. judithathome - 9/5/2002 3:46:41 PM

sorry.

232. thoughtful - 9/5/2002 3:52:43 PM

Oh? I didn't realize Russia and Iran and Afghanistan were in charge of weapons inspections in Iraq.

233. jexster - 9/5/2002 4:05:55 PM

Last November-December as Bush blahtered and certain Bushies around here blithered "but he gassed his own people" 15 years ago, I predicted the outcome -Saddam would rise from the ashes to a new and dangerous respectability in the Arab world.

Little could I imagine then how inept Bush would be nor how effective the Boy Blunder-in-chief would be in Rehabing Saddam

What an incredible fuck up.

234. jexster - 9/5/2002 4:14:18 PM

- Iran has been hard at work cultivating close relations with Kabul.
-The US former arab allies from GWI are in Iraq's camp without exception!
-Russia has inked a major economic deal with Iraq
- 600 Russian techs are in Iran this very moment working on a reactor the US claims capable of producing nuclear grade plutonium
- Pakistan's Busharraf announced Pakistan's opposition in no uncertain terms to Bush's misbegotten adventurism and we now face a real risk that Pakistan will fall into the hands of radical elements


The US is isolated and alone as Richard Perle whines that Americans and Iraqis are must die so that this dimwit is believable?



Good work dimwits.

235. robertjayb - 9/5/2002 5:33:12 PM

Judiciary committee dumps Karl Rove puppet...

WASHINGTON (AP) - Senate Democrats on Thursday voted down President Bush's latest attempt to fill federal appeals court seats with conservative jurists, rejecting a Texas Supreme Court judge criticized for anti-abortion and pro-business rulings.

"The message is this: We will confirm qualified judges," said Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle , D-S.D. "Don't send us unqualified people."

President Bush said the Senate Judiciary Committee's 10-9 party-line vote against Priscilla Owen was "shameful" and her rejection was evidence of a "pattern of obstruction" on his nominations in the Democrat-controlled Senate.

Shameful pattern of obstruction. Mercy sakes. Wonder where they got the idea?

236. wonkers2 - 9/5/2002 6:10:00 PM

Don't be too hard on Richard Perle. He had a difficult infancy and childhood.

237. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/5/2002 6:37:47 PM

238. jexster - 9/5/2002 7:14:28 PM

Getting Serious About Iraq (pdf)
Philip H. Gordon, Martin Indyk and Michael E. O’Hanlon - The Brookings Institution

A title which takes on an especially sharp point as the BloodyBushies seem quite incapable producing of "serious" policy from the chaotic anarchy the Boy Blunder some still call an "administration"
BloodyBushies are capable of.

239. jexster - 9/5/2002 7:30:34 PM

WASHINGTON, Sept. 5 The Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle, promised today that lawmakers would not be rushed into a decision on Iraq and would conduct a thorough debate "whether that takes a week, two weeks, a month or longer."

"We're going to do it right, or we're not going to do it at all," Mr. Daschle told reporters a day after President Bush ( news - web sites) pledged to seek formal approval from Congress before taking action against Iraq and its leader, President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites).

240. jexster - 9/5/2002 7:35:47 PM

Stupid questions, stupid people

into the Valley of Death, all for a moron

241. jexster - 9/5/2002 7:40:16 PM

Hell Missy Prissy Owens bites the dust - Cheney under investigation - the economy tanking - corrupt cronyism everywhere well I guess there's only one thing to do otherwise it'll be a Demo congress from here to the miserable end for sure!

242. wonkers2 - 9/5/2002 7:45:48 PM

Ramsey Clark is spearheading an anti-Iraq war march on Washington for October 26. Phone: 212-633-6646 or 202-332-5757. We need a regime change in the United States more than in Iraq.

243. joezan - 9/5/2002 8:30:24 PM

thoughtful:

Oh? I didn't realize Russia and Iran and Afghanistan were in charge of weapons inspections in Iraq.

What the hell are you talking about?

Nobody implied any such thing. Really, thoughtful -you've gotta learn to pay more attention before rushing in with dumb questions.

244. Edmund Dantes - 9/5/2002 8:58:23 PM

We need a regime change in the United States more than in Iraq.

Have you considered a location change?

245. joezan - 9/5/2002 9:03:53 PM

Well, had he used the word WHEEDLE, I'd concede your point but he very distinctly said WEE-dle. Face Joey, you have an illiterate on your hands and yet you defend his every utterance.

And we shall learn to spell just as soon as your boy learns to speak.

Well, I can't tell if this was supposed to be a joke. So, I'll be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt - you were either joking or tipsy (again).

Anyway, on NPR News today, they interviewed a linguist about GW's supposed cornpone malapropisms - Wheedle & Crawfish. The gentleman (to the interviewer's dismay) explained that, in fact, both words are well-established in the English language (and, judy, in the dictionary), and have been for over 200 years, and that GW used them in their most literal adjective senses.

"Crawfish(ed)", he explained, is a very common word in the south - perhaps more in use "by those over 45". But he didn't end there - GW's use of the word, he continued, was "exquisite" within its context. Because its most correct use as an adjective is when describing a person who "backtracks from previous assertions - as GW has said Saddam does". But here's the exquisite part - "along with its peculiar backwards walk, the crawfish is probably best noted for throwing up a cloud of mud and debris to obscure its getaway".

Then, the gentleman ended by saying, "All the reporter had to do was look the words up in the dictionary."

Now. You wanna riff on "stratergery", or "infridada", go right ahead. But you ain't got a nickel in this heah dime, pard.

246. wonkers2 - 9/5/2002 9:35:22 PM

"Have you considered a location change?"

Actually, the thought has crossed my mind.

247. Cellar Door - 9/5/2002 10:04:14 PM

I just adore "Regime Change." It's so Diana Vreeland:

"This Fall what every smart New Yorker is crying out for is a Regime Change!"

248. judithathome - 9/5/2002 11:13:10 PM

or tipsy (again).

You are quite funny in your own way but for the life of me, I don't understand why you can't accept the fact that the Leader of the Free World said WEE-DUL, not the correct word WHEEDLE. And I can assure you I have had more sober days than Mr. Bush.

I know you'd rather believe the fool was brilliant and erudite but that ain't gonna happen, either...and you're right: I don't have a nickle in this heah dime...I've got ten whole cents. PARD.

249. joezan - 9/5/2002 11:23:17 PM

So you weren't joking? Hahahaha!

I heard what he said, and if you think that there is any way to distinguish, from that soundbyte, between WHEEDLE and WEE-DUL (or WEEDLE, as was your earlier claim) - let alone the absolutely retarded implication - that GWB, on the spot, made up a word that just happened to sound an awful lot like its entirely appropriate homonym, then you're delusional with hatred for the guy, judy.

250. jexster - 9/5/2002 11:41:52 PM

It must be hell to disagree with Colin Powell. Powell and Vice President Dick Cheney apparently disagree about Iraq. Cheney thinks that Saddam Hussein must be toppled and any further diddling is pointless. Powell thinks … well, something else. Cheney made his opinion known by articulating and defending it in a speech. Powell's view, if you read the papers literally, has spread by a mysterious process akin to osmosis. The secretary of state is "known to believe" or is pigeonholed by unnamed "associates" or (my favorite) has made his opinion known "quietly."

At Ground Zero of Boy Blunder's Chernobyl - Panty Waist Powell

The most inept foreign policy decision making aparatus in US history didn't just come unglued in June when Ariel Sharon, Bibi Netanyahu, and Billy Kristol humiliated the President of the US (sic)...its been a long process, one that began just after Inauguration, and one that I have been on top from the very first weeks.

I have have truly savored the unraveling the more because I have observed it - thread by thread to the present mess.

251. robertjayb - 9/6/2002 12:12:50 AM

Paul Krugman reviews The Bully's Pulpit...

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Colin Powell and Dick Cheney are in perfect agreement. And the Bush administration won't privatize Social Security.

252. judithathome - 9/6/2002 12:21:54 AM

Joezan, I am neither retarded nor drunk nor consumed with hatred. I don't credit him with having enough wit to MAKE UP A WORD on the spot...you idiot, I'm saying he can't speak words normally...what is so difficult about this for you to understand? I am embarrassed FOR HIM and for this country every time he mangles the English language.

You may think it makes him an endearing schmuck but I don't. I think it makes look exactly like what he is: a man of slovenly habits when it comes to normal speech and a man so arrogant that he doesn't care about it.

Here is a joke (just so you know): translators all over the world are demaning hazard pay since George Bush took office.

253. judithathome - 9/6/2002 12:23:28 AM

See? Even those of us who know better make mistakes.

Demanding.

254. robertjayb - 9/6/2002 12:29:28 AM

War Games, (Nicholas D. Kristof)

I'm a wimp on Iraq: I'm in favor of invading, but only if we can win easily. So can we?

I'd feel reassured if the decision to invade was being made honestly, after a rigorous weighing of all the risks. Instead I detect a cheery Vietnam-style faith that obstacles can be assumed away.

That only works in war games.

255. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 1:22:18 AM

Another American Taliban -- and this one's a Republican Congressman!

256. concerned - 9/6/2002 2:46:27 AM

E-Gray - where California 'Rats Break the Law and Purchase Influence with Confidence

Check this site out soon before the Fascists shut it down.

257. concerned - 9/6/2002 2:50:04 AM

It's really something how the Mote Lefties in this thread are taking turns sucking on Saddam's asshole. Sorta explains how Stalin maintained his popularity for so long.

258. concerned - 9/6/2002 2:58:09 AM

Re. 255 -

The WH Rapist is Another American Taliban and is owned by BIG OIL, too!!!!!!!!!!!


He invited them over to talk oil and gas pipelines!!!!!!!!


Guess I got you beat, huh, cd?

259. thoughtful - 9/6/2002 8:53:35 AM

Joe, I know this is tough on you, but just try to follow. W. says S.H. "wheedled" to which you posted the definition as "to influence or entice by soft words or flattery". I said I didn't know SH used flattering words toward the US for any reason...you said he has with Iran and Afghanistan. But the point is SH has been getting out from under UN/US weapons inspections. But, now follow carefully, Iran and Afghanistan have not been involved in weapons inspections.

Get it? Wheedle would make sense if SH used flattery successfully to stop the weapons inspections but he did no such thing. There's no need to "wheedle" with allies...wheedling is for the opposition. Get it? There's no need to wheedle with those who have no power...only with those who do. See?

260. judithathome - 9/6/2002 8:58:16 AM

See?

I could replace all the money our retirement fund has lost in recent months by betting on the fact he doesn't "see" it at all.

261. thoughtful - 9/6/2002 9:00:24 AM

I know, but I beat my head against a wall only because it feels so good when I stop.

;-)

262. joezan - 9/6/2002 9:15:11 AM

Keep banging that melon, thoughtful:

188. judithathome - 9/4/02 3:06:37 PM

Bush is calling on the world to realize Saddam has "crawfished" and "weedled out of" things he was supposed to do...if he expects the world to recognize this, maybe he should speak in words the world might have a chance of understanding.

225. joezan - 9/5/02 3:31:02 PM

Main Entry: whee·dle
Pronunciation: 'hwE-d&l, 'wE-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whee·dled; whee·dling /'(h)wEd-li[ng], '(h)wE-d&l-i[ng]/
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: circa 1661
transitive senses
1 : to influence or entice by soft words or flattery
2 : to gain or get by wheedling
intransitive senses : to use soft words or flattery


227. thoughtful - 9/5/02 3:34:53 PM

That's interesting...exactly when did hussein have anything flattering to say about the US? Ack! Don't tell me the pres misspoke when he used the word "wheedle"! How uncharacteristic of him!

229. joezan - 9/5/02 3:37:49 PM

Who (besides yourself) said anything about flattering the US.

He has been wheedling the leaders of Russia, Iran, and Afghanistan, to name just a few.

232. thoughtful - 9/5/02 3:52:43 PM

Oh? I didn't realize Russia and Iran and Afghanistan were in charge of weapons inspections in Iraq.

263. judithathome - 9/6/2002 9:33:34 AM

See? I was right.

264. Wombat - 9/6/2002 9:50:16 AM

Perhaps Bush meant "weasel" out of things.

265. judithathome - 9/6/2002 9:58:40 AM

Or perhaps he was simply trying to speak extemporaneously and screwed up. This is the most likely way to explain it but Joey refuses to admit it could ever happen the guy.

266. Wombat - 9/6/2002 10:13:08 AM

It is distressing to have someone as inarticulate as Bush attempting to articulate policy toward Iraq. Since I have little quarrel with the idea of attacking Iraq and many reservations about how this administration is going about doing so,it is doubly distressing.

267. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 10:47:26 AM

Guess I got you beat, huh, cd?

No you don't, connie.

Of course you never pressed the Molly Ivins link of a few days back.

268. judithathome - 9/6/2002 10:47:28 AM

In a situation where what is said can be interepted in so many different ways by so many different parties, I think it is very important that the man doing the talking be articulate. Funny how you never hear aides having to explain what Dick Cheney or Colin Powell "meant by that".

269. joezan - 9/6/2002 10:49:06 AM

Perhaps Bush meant "weasel" out of things.

Another dolt weighs in without a clue.

This whole debate began with another dolt - a "journalist" who asserted, in all seriousness, that he could find neither "weedle" nor "crawfish" (as a verb) in the dictionary, and therefore GWB is just making up words.

Which, of course, motedolt #1, judith, accepts as gospel, and immediately runs willy-nilly, parroting over all of cyberspace.

Apparently, it never occurs to this "journalist" (or judith), that perhaps they should try spelling "weedle" - a very common verb - correctly (wheedle). Nor do either of them consider looking in another dictionary -say, Random House, to name just one - for "crawfish", the verb. (And of course they would, could they spell, find wheedle in any dictionary).

Then, of course, comes motedolt #2, thoughtful, who parrots the parrot, and attempts to place the whole debate into a whole new context entirely of her own making, thus compounding the idiocy.

Then comes motedolt #3, wombat, who parrots the second parrot - misbegotten context and all - while holding to motedolt #1's original, misspelled, version of things, increasing the stupidity factor exponentially.

And, of course, all 3 dolts conveniently ignore Message # 245, from a linguist interviewed on NPR, for pete's sake, who stated unequivocally that GWB used both of these words in their most literal adjective senses.

270. judithathome - 9/6/2002 10:56:19 AM

Which, of course, motedolt #1, judith, accepts as gospel, and immediately runs willy-nilly, parroting over all of cyberspace.

For your information, I posted a snark about his MISUSE of the words before he even finished the damned speech. I didn't wait for someone who is paid hazard pay by the media to say something about it.

Joezan, you can not make an argument without insulting people and their level of intelligence. To me, this is a sign that you have little confidence in your own.

271. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 10:59:21 AM

Typically connie has nothing to say about the traitorous Dana Rohrabacher.

He's read the memo: "When cornered with the truth, change the subject to Bill Clinton's penis."

272. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:01:17 AM

And by the way, why is it that more people heard Dolt-In-Chief pronounce the word incorrectly in the first place, sending us all to our dictionaries (yes, I own several) to see if possibly he had coined a word because the other word, the one you THINK he meant, doesn't fit in the context he used it? If you think after all these years on the Mote reading posts by POJ that we don't know what the word "wheedle" means, then it is you, sir, who are at fault.

273. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:01:22 AM

What exactly is the argument you're making about Bush, if it's not that he lacks intelligence?

The usual looking-without-leaping attack on the President's use of "wheedle" and "crayfish" is pathetic...and doltish.

274. joezan - 9/6/2002 11:03:31 AM

For your information, I posted a snark about his MISUSE of the words before he even finished the damned speech. I didn't wait for someone who is paid hazard pay by the media to say something about it.

Even more stupid! Why didn't you just look them up in the dictionary?

275. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:06:45 AM

Well, Mr. Dantes, opionions are everywhere. Last I heard, we were still able to express them whether everyone agreed with them or not.

Looking without leaping? I'd think you'd be more concerned with a leader who mangles words without reading...or even when reading. Hey, you can be proud of the guy all you want; feel free to praise him as an euridite man who speaks with eloquence. It's a free world. Thus far.

276. joezan - 9/6/2002 11:09:00 AM

And by the way, why is it that more people heard Dolt-In-Chief pronounce the word incorrectly in the first place...

Here we go again - the difference between "weedle" and "wheedle", and judy trying to claim that she could hear a person not pronounce an aitch that's silent in the first place.

Holy smokes - this is truly pathetic.

277. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:10:07 AM

You bet it's pathetic.

You have no defense for the criminal creep and his gang of thieves.

NONE!

278. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:10:44 AM

Even more stupid! Why didn't you just look them up in the dictionary?

I DID. What you fail to understand is that I was opposed to him using words like that. Do you think an Arab leader in the mid-East is going to understand that quaint use of words? I don't think they would have a clue what the hell he meant and you can't tell me you don't cringe at some of the "stuff" that guy says. If you don't, you're more clueless than I thought.

279. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:11:30 AM

Eight years of mindless crap about Bill and Hill

NOT ONE WORD ABOUT A "FIRST LADY" WHO MURDERED HER FIANCE!!!

280. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:12:02 AM

Joezan, I heard him misUSE a word. There IS a difference.

281. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:14:02 AM

if he expects the world to recognize this, maybe he should speak in words the world might have a chance of understanding.

What part of this don't you understand, Joey?

282. joezan - 9/6/2002 11:19:48 AM

223. judithathome - 9/5/02 3:10:08 PM

Weedled may be in your dictionary but it's not in mine.

Nice that the handbook from the Republican party gives you all these answers.

Game, set, match.

283. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:30:47 AM

The game isn't over by a long shot, joe.

284. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:39:07 AM

Joezan, I hope your delusions don't overtake your thin grasp on reality. You haven't won a match; I have ACED you out of the park.

The word WEEDLE isn't in your dictionary. You are arguing with me over this and your are wrong. I know it hurts to admit it but you are wrong. I know the word YOU are arguing about is WHEEDLE. I know what it means. He used it incorrectly. Get the hell over it.

Now go have a strong cup of senna tea and calm down.

285. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:41:04 AM

The New Republic's Gregg Easterbrook has an update on Middle East oil:

"Remember in the winter of 2001, just after George W. Bush took office, when the United States was said to face an energy crisis? Remember the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks, when it dawned on us that Osama bin Laden is a Saudi and that most of the hijackers were Saudis, and yet the United States buys nearly one-quarter of its imported petroleum from the Persian Gulf--transferring at least $20 billion annually to the Saudi princes who encourage Islamic fanaticism? Remember when President Bush declared Iraq an 'evil' state, and commentators noted that the United States buys $10 billion in crude oil from Saddam Hussein annually, subsidizing his weapons programs, sybaritic lifestyle, and repression of 20 million Iraqis?

"Remember when you read that U.S. domestic petroleum production continues to decline, meaning that unless something changes this country will grow ever-more dependent on Saudi and Iraqi oil? Remember when you read that SUVs are excused from the fuel efficiency standards that apply to regular cars and that this special favor to wastefulness explains why U.S. petroleum consumption, crude-oil imports from the Gulf, and greenhouse gas emissions are all trending in the wrong direction?

"In the aftermath of September 11, here is what has been done about these issues: Nothing."

286. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:41:59 AM

Last I heard, we were still able to express them whether everyone agreed with them or not.

That does nothing to address the issue of whether an opinion is doltish or not. No one has tried to stop you from expressing your doltish opinion.

287. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:42:52 AM

Well, thank you. I will accord you the same favor.

288. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:43:25 AM

You have no defense for the criminal creep and his gang of thieves.

Has using the words "wheedle" and "crayfish" become criminal and thievery?

289. joezan - 9/6/2002 11:44:08 AM

1. Explain how it is you heard him fail to pronounce a silent aitch.

2. Explain how he used the word incorrectly.

290. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:46:15 AM

What you fail to understand is that I was opposed to him using words like that. Do you think an Arab leader in the mid-East is going to understand that quaint use of words?

Perhaps he should learn Arabic to be obliging. I imagine most Arab leaders who listened to his speech (at all) did so through interpreters whose job it was to convey the nuances of Bush's language. On the other hand, I doubt that any of them were scratching their heads going, "Is he saying Saddam 'good' or Saddam 'bad'?"

291. ronski - 9/6/2002 11:47:33 AM

Well, some English-speakers do pronounce the "h." Dictionaries note this.

But I don't think Bush is one of those people.

Carry on.

(And then there's the question of whether Bush even is an English-speaker.)

292. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:47:58 AM

Clinton Penis BAD

Bush Penis GOOD

293. judithathome - 9/6/2002 11:48:47 AM

Definition: to influence or entice by soft words or flattery.

I don't think Saddam has done this; I think he has more than told the world go pound sand.

294. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:48:48 AM

NOT ONE WORD ABOUT A "FIRST LADY" WHO MURDERED HER FIANCE!!!

Who needs words. A few more CAPITAL LETTERS and exclamation marks might accomplish the same thing!!!

Which was the "FIRST LADY"'s murder weapon of choice: crayfish or wheedle?

295. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:49:20 AM

When cornered with the Truth they simply spout word usage trivia, Judith.

296. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:50:05 AM

Her weapon of choice was an automobile.

297. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:50:44 AM

When cornered with the Truth they simply spout word usage trivia....

Arf! Arf! Arf!

298. ronski - 9/6/2002 11:51:08 AM

And you can't miss Arab aspirations, either, unlike most English ones. They are most emphatic.

Scots has strong aspirations, of course.

But I digress.

299. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 11:55:45 AM

Say, this vehicular homicide we're talking about, is it the one Laura Bush was involved in as a 17 year old?

300. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:56:54 AM

Yes.

Does that therefore put it under the heading of "Ephebophilia"?

301. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 11:57:41 AM

Arf! Arf! Arf!

Can you roll over and play dead?

302. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 12:14:45 PM

I've never heard that the guy killed was her fiance.

But it was damn clever of her to know at 17 she'd someday be "FIRST LADY" and could get a retroactive coverup.

303. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 12:20:40 PM

Damn

304. joezan - 9/6/2002 12:25:12 PM

Definition: to influence or entice by soft words or flattery.

I don't think Saddam has done this; I think he has more than told the world go pound sand.

Then you don't pay attention. Saddam has been sucking up to all of his former enemies in the Gulf for the past several months - including even Iran and Syria, but especially to the Palestinians. All of this has won him much support around the region. The Iraqi gov't even publicly announced recently that it will no longer refer to Kuwait as one of its provinces. Then, of course, there is this little matter of a $60b trade deal with Russia.

Now, will you please explain how it is that you heard Bush fail to pronounce a silent aitch. And then, could you explain how it is that, if you knew what the word was that he was misusing,it sent you scrambling for your many dictionaries?

305. jexster - 9/6/2002 12:41:20 PM

DiFi Burns Some Bush - Blasts War Frenzied Incompetent

Washington -- Sen. Dianne Feinstein took to the Senate floor Thursday to argue that a pre-emptive attack to oust Saddam Hussein would be positively un-American unless President Bush produces evidence linking Hussein to terrorist attacks against the United States.

"America has never been an aggressor nation unless attacked, as we were at Pearl Harbor and on Sept. 11, or our interests and our allies were attacked," Feinstein said. "We have never initiated a major invasion against another nation-state, which leads to the question of whether a pre-emptive war is the morally right, legally right, or the politically right way for the United States to proceed."

Must have read my email

306. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 12:44:00 PM

Saddam has been wheedling by using words the opposition understands. He doesn't go all high hat like Bush and use words that make foreign leaders reach for their big dictionaries. Saddam's polite that way.

"Mother of all battles," for example. No one has any trouble understanding what that means. Well, except for maybe the Iraqi army.

307. concerned - 9/6/2002 12:47:38 PM

Re. 271 -

How can I talk about what you've always got your mouth wrapped around? IAC, I've proved that the WH Rapist is far and away more traitorous than any Republican you can name. Thanks for agreeing.

308. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 12:50:22 PM

You've proven NOTHING!

Meanwhile.. .

309. concerned - 9/6/2002 12:51:35 PM

Strange that the Mote morons who spend their time carping about whether some reporter with deficient hearing thinks he caught GWB not inflecting the 'h' in 'wheedle' are just fine with self professed 'nuculer' engineer Jimmuh Cahtuh's multifarious malapropisms.

310. jexster - 9/6/2002 12:52:31 PM

September 6, 2002
Dear Mr. McCutchen:

Thank you for contacting me regarding expanding the war on terrorism to Iraq. I appreciate hearing from you on this important issue.

I believe we need to employ every tool at our disposal to protect our nation, including, if necessary, the use of our armed forces.
However, before we resort to using force against Iraq, the Administration must exhaust all other options . As a result, I introduced Senate Concurrent Resolution 133, which calls for Congressional authorization or a declaration of war before force is used against Iraq.

The resolution expresses the sense of the Congress that:

The United States and the United Nations Security Council should insist on a complete program of inspection and monitoring to prevent the development of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq;

Iraq should allow the United Nations weapons inspectors "immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all areas, facilities, equipment, records and means of transportation which they wish to inspect" as required by United Nations Security Council Resolution 1284 of December 17, 1999;

The United States should not initiate the use of force against Iraq without specific statutory authorization or a declaration of war under Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the Constitution of the United States (except as provided by the existing Rules of Engagement used by coalition forces to exercise the right of self defense, or under the National Security Act of 1947).

311. jexster - 9/6/2002 12:52:54 PM

If the Administration presents Congress with evidence to justify military action against Iraq, I will consider the information with great care
to ensure any action taken is in the best nterests of our nation. I also strongly believe that if the United States is to take action against Iraq we must have a just cause, the threat must be real and immediate, and we
must have the support and assistance of the international community.

Again, thank you for your views during this difficult time. If you should have any additional comments or suggestions, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C. staff at (202) 224-3841.

312. concerned - 9/6/2002 12:53:34 PM

Re. 308 -

Whatever you say, you wildman. Thanks for agreeing, though.

313. judithathome - 9/6/2002 1:05:28 PM

Now, will you please explain how it is that you heard Bush fail to pronounce a silent aitch. And then, could you explain how it is that, if you knew what the word was that he was misusing,it sent you scrambling for your many dictionaries?

No, I won't expalin another thing to you because it is useless to do so. This is bordering on CalGal territory, semantics-wise, only she had better weapons than you do. Still, it is just as tiresome, either way.

314. Edmund Dantes - 9/6/2002 1:09:11 PM

Shut up, she explained.

315. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 1:10:33 PM

No YOU shut up, he advised.

316. judithathome - 9/6/2002 1:18:52 PM

Shut up, she explained.

No, please continue...you both seem to enjoy it so.

Even Onan enjoyed himself.

317. jexster - 9/6/2002 1:32:42 PM

"the WH Rapist is far and away more traitorous than any Republican you can name"

Funny isn't that you never asked me.

So call me a butt-insky -


George W. Bush - for criminal negligence that directly caused the deaths of nearly 3000 americans

- for manufacturing frenzy and exploiting fear in the immoral pursuit of a bloody war whose sole purpose is to rescue his political fortunes and credibility

- for anti-democratic theft of the franchise from his fellow americans...

George W. Bush -inept, immoral, illegitimate - traitor to his country and oath of office

318. jexster - 9/6/2002 1:48:39 PM

Forgot the most important charge of all...

For gross incompetence and malfeance in office, and for all round imbecility, a traitor to America, George W. of Crawfish

319. jexster - 9/6/2002 2:03:54 PM

War to Make Bush Believable - A Costly Mistake

US Braces for Oil Price Spikes and Economic Devastation

War would 'open the gates of hell,' Arab nations

For opening the gates of hell to Americans so that someone might believe he's not a loud mouthed crackpot - GWB Traitor-in-Chief

320. Cellar Door - 9/6/2002 2:21:06 PM

Dubbya also raped a 15 year-old girl and paid for her abortion.

321. jexster - 9/6/2002 2:31:52 PM

Do tell.


Lost in Bully BushShit from the Bully Pulpit
The Bush team's pronouncements rely on doublethink, the ability to believe two contradictory things at the same time

{WARNING - Critical Thought Required - Infants, Small Children & Thomas D Should Not Attempt without Adult Supervision)



War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Colin Powell and Dick Cheney are in perfect agreement. And the Bush administration won't privatize Social Security.

Ari Fleischer's insistence that Mr. Powell and Mr. Cheney have no differences over Iraq seems to have pushed some journalists into facing up, at least briefly, to the obvious. ABC's weblog The Note described it as a "chocolate-is-vanilla" claim, admitting that "The Bush team has always had a credibility problem with some reporters because of their insistence on saying 'up is down' and 'black is white.' "

322. jexster - 9/6/2002 2:36:49 PM

The Orwellian tactics don't stop with doublethink; they also include newspeak, the redefinition of words to rule out disloyal thoughts. Again, Social Security is a perfect example. Republican political consultants have found that in an era of plunging stocks and corporate scandal the word "privatization" has taken on negative connotations. The answer? Deny that personal accounts constitute privatization, and bully the press into going along. A Republican National Campaign Committee memo lays out the new strategy:


"It is very important that we not allow reporters to shill for Democrat demagoguery by inaccurately characterizing 'personal accounts' and 'privatization' as one and the same."


Any remblance between that turd and any of 4000 posts from TD and RoseMary of God of the Five Wounds is purely coincidental.

323. jexster - 9/6/2002 3:09:58 PM

Chickenhawk Meets Chicken Little in the Court of the Boy Blunder King

Perhaps it was only a matter of time. Given the way the military service issue dogged Bill Clinton throughout his presidency, it was inevitable that similar criticisms would be raised about President Bush and others in his administration.
For months, liberal Web sites and blogs have been buzzing about "chickenhawks" in the Bush administration and among his supporters in Congress. The term, in this instance anyway, refers to hawkish politicians who push war but never actually served in one. It can refer to Republicans or Democrats. Numerous Web sites are devoting space to discussing the idea that the nation's most persistent voices in support of military attack on Iraq — Bush (who served with the Air National Guard in Houston during Vietnam,) Vice President Cheney, Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, among others — are people who never served in Vietnam or saw first hand the carnage that war produces.

324. joezan - 9/6/2002 3:20:50 PM

Given the way the military service issue dogged Bill Clinton throughout his presidency, it was inevitable that similar criticisms would be raised about President Bush and others in his administration.

Not even on most folks' radar - reason being, of course, that neither GWB nor anyone in his admin ever wrote letters proclaiming their hatred of the military, nor did they go around protesting US Military policy in foreign countries, etc, etc, etc.

People just don't like activist, pinko presidents, jex.

325. jexster - 9/6/2002 3:25:52 PM

On my radar screen...coming to a theater near you

It is interesting to me that many of those who want to rush this country into war and think it would be so quick and easy don't know anything about war.

They come at it from an intellectual perspective versus having sat in jungles or foxholes and watched their friends get their heads blown off. I try to speak for those ghosts of the past a little bit Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.), winner of two Purple Hearts.

Rreality has a way of asserting itself. And in case you are wondering, ignorance isn't strength.

326. joezan - 9/6/2002 3:30:37 PM

In response to criticism, the National Education Association has pulled its Sept. 11 lesson on tolerance off its web site, reports the New York Times

327. jexster - 9/6/2002 3:31:28 PM

‘What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.’And the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.

ARTICLE 5 - THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT
You shall not kill.[54]

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, "You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment."

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.[55]
2258 "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."[56]

328. jexster - 9/6/2002 3:35:20 PM

Thank you for the nice note and the reference. Urban warfare is indeed grim. Since WWII, we have only had to do it twice, when the Marines captured Seoul in Sept. 1950 during the Korean war and again when the Marines liberated Hue during the Vietnamese Tet offensive of 1968. Both caused terrible casualties and I personally lost five good friends between the two actions. Gen. Bernard Trainor (USMC -ret)

329. jexster - 9/6/2002 3:40:26 PM

Roger that Zan...we have a flock of chickens comin home to roost about 15 minutes out on your six

330. jexster - 9/6/2002 4:35:27 PM

In a satirical interview with G. W. Bush this evening, Jay asked when the
invasion of Iraq would take place. The Dubbaya impersonator replied:

"Oh, I think around Father's Day. I can't think of a better gift. It was either a tie rack or attack Iraq."

"There's no doubt in my mind that we should allow the world worst leaders to hold America hostage, to threaten our peace, to threaten our friends and allies with the world's worst weapons."—South Bend, Ind., Sept. 5, 2002

Earth to Zan - ain't nobody followin that nitwit nowhere, no how

331. jexster - 9/6/2002 4:39:29 PM

People just don't like activist, pinko presidents, jex
Twice elected...try doing it ONCE ..

Earth to Zan..what IS your Name?

Lunatic Fringe
I know you're out there
You're in hiding
And you hold your meetings
We can hear you coming
We know what you're after
We're wise to you this time
We won't let you kill the laughter

Lunatic Fringe
In the twilight's last gleaming
This is open season
But you won't get too far
We know you've got to blame someone
For your own confusion
But we're on guard this time
Against your final solution

We can hear you coming
(We can hear you coming)
No you're not going to win this time
We can hear the footsteps
(We can hear the footsteps)
Way out along the walkway
Lunatic Fringe
We know you're out there
But in these new dark ages
There will still be light

An eye for an eye
Well, before you go under
Can you feel the resistance
Can you feel the...thunder

332. judithathome - 9/6/2002 5:11:24 PM

Here are some more intelligent statements from our President. Makes your heart swell with pride, doesn't it?

"There's no doubt in my mind that we should allow the world worst leaders to hold America hostage, to threaten our peace, to threaten our friends and allies with the world's worst weapons."—South Bend, Ind., Sept. 5, 2002

"If you don't have any ambitions, the minimum-wage job isn't going to get you to where you want to get, for example. In other words, what is your ambitions? And oh, by the way, if that is your ambition, here's what it's going to take to achieve it."—Speech to students in Little Rock, Ark., Aug. 29, 2002 (Thanks to George Dupper.)

"See, we love—we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love."—Oklahoma City, Aug. 29, 2002

"There's no cave deep enough for America, or dark enough to hide."—Oklahoma City, Aug. 29, 2002 (Thanks to Michael Shively.)

"President Musharraf, he's still tight with us on the war against terror, and that's what I appreciate. He's a—he understands that we've got to keep al-Qaida on the run, and that by keeping him on the run, it's more likely we will bring him to justice."—Ruch, Ore., Aug. 22, 2002 (Thanks to Scott Miller.)

"I'm a patient man. And when I say I'm a patient man, I mean I'm a patient man."


"Nothing he [Saddam Hussein] has done has convinced me—I'm confident the Secretary of Defense—that he is the kind of fellow that is willing to forgo weapons of mass destruction, is willing to be a peaceful neighbor, that is—will honor the people—the Iraqi people of all stripes, will—values human life. He hasn't convinced me, nor has he convinced my administration."—Crawford, Texas, Aug. 21, 2002

333. magoseph - 9/6/2002 5:13:01 PM

Read it!
Two of the headlines from the August 2002 ISSUE of Zogby's Real America .

Less than Half of Voters say Bush Deserves Re-election

Nearly One in Three Worse off Financially Than a Year Ago

From John Zogby's Desk

334. jexster - 9/6/2002 8:29:22 PM

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Colin Powell and Dick Cheney are in perfect agreement

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House said on Friday that President Bush ( news - web sites)'s decision on whether to use military force to remove Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites) would not be influenced by the effect such an attack would have on the price of crude oil or on the American economy.

335. jexster - 9/6/2002 8:31:20 PM

JAH - Geopolitical and military genius....Just wait til he confuses Saddam!

Thank God for Tom Daschle...if all that bloody idiot had to do is deal with Lott and DeLay we'd be 1/2 way to hell by now

336. jexster - 9/6/2002 8:40:46 PM

Bush launches biggest bombing of Iraq in years..while NBC asks "Is he in such an all fired hurry to distract attention from the fucked up economy?"

Wag the dog

337. jexster - 9/6/2002 9:35:10 PM

For anyone who has watched the Bush administration during its first 19 months in office, what happened this week on Iraqi policy follows a familiar pattern: a strategic, if obvious, shift that takes the White House off the defensive and gives the president an opportunity to retake control of the agenda.


In this case, the administration's problems were partly of its own making. The internal divisions spilled into public view, and the president's hawkish statements alarmed European allies. Before administration officials were prepared to begin making their public case, public opinion was shifting away from them, and when Bush returned to Washington from Texas last weekend, he faced an entirely different political climate on Iraq than when he left.

On Wednesday, the White House moved to contain the damage -- as it has done in the past. "They have consistently proven themselves willing to shift at the last moment when the tides are moving against them," said Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.).

But Kerry, a probable presidential candidate in 2004, said that what preceded this week's moves were potentially consequential mistakes that could make it more difficult for the president to rally support for getting rid of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

"They were way behind the curve in defining the nature of a real problem," he said, "and it has cost us in terms of our national security and our relationships needed to protect that security."

The Boy Blunder Bumbles On

338. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/7/2002 10:19:33 AM

339. jexster - 9/7/2002 1:39:36 PM

According to Judicial Watch, VP "Cheney refused to produce documents pursuant to a federal court order in the ongoing Judicial Watch lawsuit concerning his Energy Task Force. Discovery responses were due from the Vice President yesterday per a court order, yet the Vice President, through Justice Department lawyers, filed a last minute motion for protective order seeking exemption from discovery on 'constitutional grounds'... 'Judge Sullivan made it clear that he would not tolerate this type of gamesmanship. In fact, the Bush-Cheney Justice Department was already admonished by Judge Sullivan for lying to him about the law. And now the Vice President's shows contempt for the Court's orders by refusing to produce documents as directed by the court. We will seek sanctions and other appropriate relief for this contempt for the law," said Larry Klayman.

Gee We'll Have to Give Krusty & Boy Blunder a War - Wag the Puppy

340. jexster - 9/7/2002 2:22:23 PM

It is tempting to believe that Bush rose to the occasion last September because flag and country demanded it. But with the passage of a year, and a chance to watch the President in action at home and overseas, it's harder to get away from the idea that Bush didn't rise to meet history but that history fell to meet him

Crash & Burn:Time Burns Some Bush

341. jexster - 9/7/2002 5:58:03 PM

More than most presidential candidates, Bush promised during his campaign to look heavenward for guidance if elected. In nearly every speech he talked about putting his hand on the Bible and told voters he didn't need polls to know what to do, so help him God. And yet campaign promises are not the only reason—nor the most important reason—that moral certitude plays such a crucial role in Bush's decisions overseas. He came to office largely ignorant of foreign affairs. His team split immediately—and deeply—after his Inauguration into two fiercely divided camps, and is already scarred by the pitched battles between the conservative wing, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, and the pragmatists under Secretary of State Colin Powell. Lacking his father's deep reservoir of experience to draw upon, how does Bush resolve his advisers' titanic disagreements? He goes with his gut. He relies on an instinctive sense of who is good and who is bad overseas—and then he sticks at all costs with the call he has made. His confidence in this process has grown with his success in Afghanistan. He took to heart the lesson that he should trust his moral sense and have faith in what a former Clinton aide, not without admiration, calls "rising dominoes"—the sense that if Bush unfurls a big bright flag and marches toward the mountains, the world will follow.

Heard it WHERE first?

When?

About March 2001

342. jexster - 9/7/2002 5:58:24 PM

343. jexster - 9/7/2002 6:03:01 PM

"Outside of Washington and New York, the terror thing is over. It is an episode that has passed. It just won't carry him. The more they try it, the more they risk their standing with the voters. Voters are increasingly asking, 'Hey, what about me?'"

ahem

344. Cellar Door - 9/7/2002 7:36:46 PM

George W. Bush: Alcoholic

345. OhioSTOPAS - 9/7/2002 9:21:31 PM

From the Time article linked by Jex in #340:

"Perhaps no one in the nation was helped more by Sept. 11 than the 43rd President."

Like the man said - the trifecta!

346. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/8/2002 1:32:57 AM

The Grandstander-In-Chief!

347. concerned - 9/8/2002 1:42:39 AM

Re. 317 -

Jexster -

Honorary Muslim extremist sympathizer for 2002.

348. concerned - 9/8/2002 1:46:17 AM

re. 320 -

I'm surprised Wombat and PE haven't jumped in here and scolded CD regarding his obvious lying 'about GWB's penis'. Must be because of the near universal agreement that Leftist nutcases are simply too stupid to react appropriately to such criticism.

349. concerned - 9/8/2002 2:35:46 AM

Once again, the most dishonorable liar, x42, who did less than nothing to capture bin Laden, spews bullshit regarding his former terrorist buddy and the Bush Administration

350. concerned - 9/8/2002 2:38:30 AM

Hey, jex - I understand you have front row tickets to "September 11, 2001: A Towering Day in History," hosted by the Islamic Council of Britain, you Muslim extremeis supporter, you.

351. concerned - 9/8/2002 2:39:04 AM

..extremist...

352. concerned - 9/8/2002 2:40:46 AM

"We will not stop Al-Qaida people from joining. To us they are devoted people who were trying to stop the invasion of a Muslim country," Mohammed said.

Well, that makes lots of sense, considering how well Al Qaida is doing in Afghanistan nowadays. Mohammed=pathological liar?

353. wonkers2 - 9/8/2002 8:03:22 AM

Re Chuck Hagel's position on Iraq, I wonder where Nebraska's other "war hero," Bob Kerrey, is on the topic?

354. wonkers2 - 9/8/2002 10:09:35 AM

"Only capitalists can destroy capitalism. Populist capitalism of a type is very beneficial to the vast majority in our system, but an ethical tradition is needed to make it all work. When you have senior people wlaking away with hundreds of millions, leaving everyone else in the dirt, that is hugely depressing and very dangerous." In both earlier periods (70s, 80s), the effects of the scandals were relatively muted. "They didn't cost 50,000 jobs, people's savings and a decline in market value of trillions of dollars...This is not about a bunch of rogue C.E.O.s. Once this thing gets to the establisment of the financial community (Arthur Andersen, CitiGroup, JP Morgan) then you'd better stop and say 'Wait a minute, what's happening here?' Does the system work to spread the wealth in some way that's reasonably fair? Clearly at this point, the answer has to be no, and that's not tolerable."

Felix Rohaytn NYT 9-7-02

Felix Rohatyn [Highly respected and successful investment banker--Lazard Freres--former ambassador to France and architect of the restoration of the financial stability of New York City in the 1970s (?)]

355. Cellar Door - 9/8/2002 11:04:31 AM

What "obvious lying"?

356. Cellar Door - 9/8/2002 11:05:41 AM

Oh I keep forgetting. The only thing you watch is Fox, and the only thing you read is the "Washington Times."

357. Cellar Door - 9/8/2002 11:07:57 AM

Here's what our last duly elected President has to say about the current crisis.

358. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/8/2002 11:36:32 AM

359. judithathome - 9/8/2002 11:40:58 AM

Bravo, Wiz...!

360. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/8/2002 1:00:44 PM

Toles is superb!

[See Good Life Thread.]

361. wonkers2 - 9/8/2002 1:19:34 PM

The greatest!

362. Cellar Door - 9/8/2002 5:55:30 PM

Gag me with a spoon!

363. judithathome - 9/8/2002 6:51:30 PM

I've been throwing up all weekend from a stomach virus...little did I know it would start all over again reading that.

364. ronski - 9/8/2002 8:22:14 PM

The CNN story almost reads like a conservative parody of standard left-liberal fare, down to calling the Heritage Foundation a "think tank," without describing its political philosophy.

365. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/8/2002 8:34:15 PM

366. RustlerPike - 9/8/2002 8:45:37 PM

Kin someone tell me the url for maintaining my thread?

367. RustlerPike - 9/8/2002 8:51:49 PM

Ooops, wrong thread.

368. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 9/8/2002 9:16:34 PM

> I've been throwing up all weekend from a stomach virus...

OD'd on "jelly beans" again, Judy?

369. judithathome - 9/8/2002 9:17:50 PM

No, I read too many of your posts.

370. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 9/8/2002 9:22:13 PM

:-P

371. jexster - 9/9/2002 8:55:15 AM

Sure RP...

Www.jews4jesus.com/yeshuaRULZ.html

TD - The Roots of Muslim Rage a 1990 essay by Bernard Lewis ... and learn

Why one is no more able to approach the Koran/Islam through OBL/9-1-1 than one can approach NewTest/Christianity through Nazi Exegsis/Holocaust

Why your post self-immolated.

What the difference is between the disciplines of history and comparative religious studies on the one hand and your spew from Collected Confusions For Bigots, CryptoNazis,Crackpots, the Mentally Ill, and Misc. Assorted Cretins.

Why you are, to use Tom Friedman's words, "cuckoo"

And enjoy your first ever critical thoughts.

372. concerned - 9/9/2002 10:43:06 AM

Neither can one approach OBL/9-1-1 through the early Koran alone which is why you are full of it, jexster.

373. wonkers2 - 9/9/2002 2:34:00 PM

What's with all the GOP whining about judge nominee approvals by the Sentate? Out of 82 nominees voted on by the Senate 80 have been approved, and two have been turned down. When the GOP had a majority in the Senate they refused to have hearings or up or down votes.

374. OhioSTOPAS - 9/9/2002 4:45:57 PM

For all of the hot air and op-ed ink expended on this issue (treatment of the President's judicial nominees by a Senate of the opposing party), I've never seen an apples-to-apples comparision of the Republican Senate under Clinton and the Democratic Senate under Bush. Both parties like to cast the statistics in ways that make its side reasonable and the other obstructionist (e.g., Republicans comparing percentage of judicial vacancies the Democratic Senate has permitted Bush to fill, ignoring the fact that the number of vacancies to be filled has been swelled by Republican inaction on Clinton nominees).

But the Republican pols and pundits have the edge on bullshit. One example is the argument that the Democratic Senators on the Judiciary Committee are violating the Constitutional understanding by not permitting a nominee the majority finds undesirable to nevertheless have a floor vote. The Constitution requires the entire Senate to give its "advice and consent", they say. Hey, tell it to the Senate! It's the Senate rules that refer the nominee to a committee empowered to reject the nominee.

375. ronski - 9/9/2002 5:07:09 PM

I thought the Dems action on the first judge they turned down was absolutely wrong-headed.

But I'm delighted with their action on the second one.

She was a judicial activist of the worst sort.

376. Cellar Door - 9/9/2002 6:45:44 PM

Keep those cards and letters coming in folks!

377. concerned - 9/10/2002 1:56:37 AM

Wish I'd posted that wrt the following NYT editorial excerpt:

During the Truman administration, some strategists suggested attacking the Soviet Union while it was still militarily weak to prevent the rise of a nuclear-armed Communist superpower. Wiser heads prevailed, and for the next 40 years America's reliance on a strategy of deterrence preserved an uneasy but durable peace.


Yeah, it's great that millions of people got to live under Soviet tyranny, die in gulags, and boil their shoes for soup for four decades while the rest of us in the West did duck-and-cover drills. Thank Christ the United States didn't swagger in there after World War II and set up a democracy or something like that. That would've just been awful.

378. concerned - 9/10/2002 2:03:36 AM

Bigger than reparations, better than Islam: The new Leftist craze? Kill, Kill, Kill the White Race!

379. concerned - 9/10/2002 2:05:25 AM

Gee. Wonder why I often think Leftism is the ideology of death and suffering?

380. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 9:51:24 AM

Tommy - One would hope that Ignatiev was merely engaging in some Swiftian irony and that fact was simply missed by Armstrong.

381. judithathome - 9/10/2002 9:58:58 AM

By The Way.....

Interesting article on Bushspeak but it's the last two paragraphs on Cheney and Rove which speak volumes.

382. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 10:05:21 AM

Family Values.

383. thoughtful - 9/10/2002 10:06:33 AM

I wish someone would total up the number of days W has spent in the white house...i suspect it's the least of any of the recent presidencies.

384. wonkers2 - 9/10/2002 10:29:16 AM

RE: Cheney and Rove. They have no shame. Rove is a garden variety, unprincipled political whore. Cheney is diabolically evil.

385. concerned - 9/10/2002 10:59:04 AM

Re. 380 -

One would hope so, but I'm afraid that hope would be misplaced.

386. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 11:05:19 AM

Tommy - I would have to see something a bit more definitive than an article by Armstrong Williams.

BTW, aren't you a big Ann Coulter fan?

387. concerned - 9/10/2002 11:55:03 AM

Re. 386 -

Bienie -

Not particularly, although it's refreshing to see at least one conservative who is willing to use the same rhetorical techniques as is usual from the Left.

388. concerned - 9/10/2002 11:56:02 AM

IAC, there appears to be no point of fact on which you are willing to differ with Armstrong Williams, so why quibble?

389. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 11:57:13 AM

No one has anything to say about Noelle I see.

No surprise.

I guess "The War On Drugs" has been called off on account of "family matters."

390. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 11:58:03 AM

No point in quibbling with a closet queen, connie.

391. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:05:30 PM

I suspect Biener misses Coulter's non Swiftian irony.

392. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:21:15 PM

I've read a bit more and, despite Biener's presumptuousness, Ignatiev is not kidding about 'abolishing the white race', although he is not explicitly calling for a policy of genocide. However, the idiom he indulges in will certainly have the effect of inflaming racial tensions and violence, to whatever extent attention is paid to this crackpot racist.

393. jexster - 9/10/2002 12:29:06 PM

The BumbleFuck economy is a hanging by a threat on a bubble.

Apologies for mixing metaphor, but the thought came to me as I answered a telespam call from some asshole mortgage refinance company....

Of course, my phone number being unlisted, it was a random auto dial computer operation...

The point is that the California economy is in the shitter. Not as bad as the Bush I Recession (yet) but probably headed there. The current mess is hanging by the thread of a residential real estate bubble but, because I also represent a commercial landlord, I know that commercial real estate is as weak as its been since Bush I Poverty era...

Draw your own conclusions.

sell short

394. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:31:58 PM

Jexster appears to be waiting for the inevitable Gray-out.

395. jexster - 9/10/2002 12:31:58 PM

I have a nigthmarish collection of bookmarks and folders as you might guess..

The Time article linked in Message # 340 is not in the Politics folder, its in the History folder because I believe it has historical import for perhaps no better reason than most of what the authors now say I have said since the Idiot took office.

396. jexster - 9/10/2002 12:56:09 PM

Message # 374

Ohio you been reading too much Conintern again....apples to apples you gotta be kiddin!

This is the cum stained dress crowd..dey don't give a rat's ass about substance....they are GOP wingnuts fer chrissakes, a fact of life brought home by our Irak Crakpot Zan who in commenting on my link of a Post piece on the hypocrisy of Bush ChickenHawks who bashed clinton for being a "draft dodger" and who dodged military service themselves are no gayily setting about sending US kids and Iraqi civilians to paradise

The Imbecile Zan said "who cares?" (essentially)

These fuckwads are frauds...its all a con game..from Enron, to Harken, to moral clarity, to CA energy rip off, to Halliburton, to Anderson, to corporate governance to foreign policy from now until the day the people dump those fucks back into pile of Texus steer shit from whence they came...all Bluff, Bluster, Talk, Snake Oil

This unfamiliarity and heightened expectation, matched with the trappings of competence, gave potency to what has turned out to be the Bush administration's signature political tactic: the confidence game. The confidence man is a stock figure in American culture, originating--perhaps not coincidentally--in the boomtowns of the Old Southwest. He's the snake-oil salesman, the wildcat land speculator who mixes boundless optimism with quick talk, bluff, and bluster. The administration is led by such men....

Really, the fact that the Bush administration needed such tactics shouldn't have been a surprise.

When the bubble bursts, they will have a long way to fall.

397. jexster - 9/10/2002 1:00:40 PM

Jexster appears to be waiting for the inevitable Gray-out.

The Grayster done took care dat TDaschole...back when went Mano a Moron in LA May 2001..got price caps to stop the Enron rip off....

Since then FYI its been toilet time for the Grand Old Pile of Pigshit....Davis has a double digit lead according to my sources. The imploding Simple Simon campaign has the GOP scared shitless that they will lose what little that remains for them in the LAND OF THE 55 ELECTORAL VOTES...

I hope they shut off the lights when they leave so that we can save power

398. jexster - 9/10/2002 1:02:31 PM

scared shitless=scared PIGshitless, BUSHshitless

Stick a fork in that armadillo

399. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:03:14 PM

We don't need no ferrin' terrorists -- we've got our own!

400. jexster - 9/10/2002 1:05:04 PM

Message # 350 TDaschole

I understand that you are Cuckoo in Carolina...South Carolina??? Is that where you keep your septic?

401. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:06:18 PM

Timely reading.

402. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:14:54 PM

To repeat, for the propaganda-impaired --

403. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:47:03 PM

"Just as long as this inconvenient news does nothing to interfere with the flow of Xanax to sister-in-Christ Laura Bush, everything will be right as rain in the White House tonight. After all, even if the Bush children mow down a food court at the local mall with machine guns, it is a "private matter." Just as their father's years of cocaine addiction and "lost weekends" with hookers in Tijuana are a "private matter." All of you bong-hitting, lie-beral unsaved DEMONcratic trash need to mind your own business! Glory!
So close to Jesus, I probably think this Psalm is about me,

Mrs. Betty Bowers America's Best Christian"

404. jexster - 9/10/2002 2:05:01 PM

Finally a religious point on which Cllr and I agree BETTY BOWERS ROX!!!


Why Cllr I thunk I done gonna mosey over to Landover Babdist see what I dredge up on Freakie Fundie Morality and Ethics for Crackpot Zan's next lesson.

Thanks.

405. jexster - 9/10/2002 2:10:16 PM

From: "Gillian Thirteen" gillian@[removed].com

To: betty@bettybowers.com


Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:51 AM


Subject: Why do people create elaborate websites to mock Fundamentalist Christians?

406. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 2:15:06 PM

Subject: Why do people create elaborate websites to mock Fundamentalist Christians?

Because they are absolutely begging for it. Besides, it is good clean fun.

407. robertjayb - 9/10/2002 2:27:06 PM

The more things change...

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) --Polls opened late and machines malfunctioned Tuesday during Florida's first test of new touch-screen voting machines installed since the 2000 election fiasco.

Gubernatorial candidate Janet Reno said she would call on Gov. Jeb Bush to extend primary election voting hours because of the delays, including one precinct in Miami where voting didn't begin until 11:45 a.m. -- nearly five hours after polls opened.

Officials estimated about 500 people left one precinct without voting.

Reno herself was delayed at her Miami election precinct while election workers struggled to get the new voting machines up and running.

408. OhioSTOPAS - 9/10/2002 3:10:16 PM

African-Americans and other Democrats prevented from voting?

Look's like Florida is ready for the general election. Good dress rehearsal, Jeb!

409. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 3:22:56 PM

Since the precints that are having problems are controlled by Democrats, it is hard to blame their problems on Jeb and the Republicans. Didn't these people take the machines out of the boxes and test them prior to today? Since Democrats have put out so much time, effort and money to get out the vote, doesn't it make sense that they would make sure the voters had a place to vote. If one were into conspiracy theories, you could almost say Democrats are deliberately trying to cast doubt on the results of the election. Of course that would just be cynical, wouldn't it?

410. robertjayb - 9/10/2002 3:44:37 PM

Jeb extends voting hours.

MIAMI -- Gov. Jeb Bush this afternoon issued an order to keep polls open two hours longer statewide, until 9 p.m.

Earlier, the state's top elections official had urged Gov. Jeb Bush to extend polling hours by two hours after problems were reported from Miami-Dade and Broward counties north to Jacksonville in Florida's first statewide test of an election system overhauled after the 2000 recount debacle and touted as a model for the nation.

Secretary of State Jim Smith's recommendation came after Democratic gubernatorial candidate Janet Reno asked Bush to extend voting hours two hours in four counties where problems were reported -- Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Duval. Reno sought a court order forcing those counties, which account for more than a third of Florida's 9.1 million voters.

411. robertjayb - 9/10/2002 3:47:00 PM

Good job, Jeb. Now we can truck in the winos and derelicts we missed this morning.

412. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 3:55:00 PM

rjb - Don't forget to bring in the dead. They are your best constituency. Also be sure to invoke the name of Saint Richard J Daley, the patron saint of Democrats running for office.

413. robertjayb - 9/10/2002 3:56:55 PM

Where's Jimmy Carter when we need him?

414. OhioSTOPAS - 9/10/2002 4:10:38 PM

We Democratics can bring in all the Florida winos and dead people we want.

But when those piles of absentee ballots arrive nine or ten days after the election (in unpostmarked envelopes, of course) it'll be another GOP victory.

415. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 4:12:47 PM

Is it possible that Floridians should just not be allowed to vote? After the 2000 debacle you would think the state and the precincts would have done everything possible to get this vote right and prove to the rest of the country that we aren't just a bunch of ignorant beach bums and senile retirees. Instead we took careful aim and blew half of our collective foot off.

416. joezan - 9/10/2002 4:16:12 PM

Can you vote in the primary, JJ?

417. Wombat - 9/10/2002 4:20:37 PM

JJ:

Since when did you move to Florida?

418. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 4:32:30 PM

Joe - Well, I could have if I hadn't misplaced my absentee ballot.

Wombat - I recently relo'd to the Space Coast for a job with a great company. Between Patrick AFB and Cape Canaveral AFS, I am really a fish out of water here. I haven't worked with this many ex-military since. . . well, ever.

419. OhioSTOPAS - 9/10/2002 4:36:01 PM

Speaking of Jeb Bush, there's a story on the continuing controversy (rekindled by recent additional revelations) about the unusual, fundamentalist views of Jerry Regier, Bush's recent appointment to head the Florida Department of Children and Families.

Regarding press criticism of Regier's advocacy of child-beating (okay, "Biblical spankings") and female subservience to men, the Governor wrote, "I am no longer amazed at the anti-Christian feelings in the press."

Anti-childbeating = "anti-Christian"? Not a nice thing to say about Christianity, Governor. I'd look out for lightning bolts if I were you.

420. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 4:48:43 PM

421. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 7:20:34 PM

Will Jeb beat his Crack Ho daughter?

422. jexster - 9/10/2002 9:37:53 PM

Wiz...

Inspired by today's Orange Alert charade, I donned by Wiz O Whim "Presidunce T"

At least a dozen unsolicited compliments, I'll have you know "Love that shirt" "Cool shirt" "Presidence - yeah you right" "More Texus shit"

If only it didn't fade so fast

423. jexster - 9/10/2002 9:38:18 PM

Presidunce

424. joezan - 9/10/2002 10:12:16 PM

Can anyone make sense of Message # 422?

425. judithathome - 9/10/2002 10:16:29 PM

Sure...jex wore one of Wiz's T shirts and was rewarded by admiring glances and comments from people who aren't impressed with GWB.

426. joezan - 9/10/2002 10:20:07 PM

You understand retardian?

Wow - you never cease to amaze, judith.

427. judithathome - 9/10/2002 10:28:11 PM

You understand retardian

Of course I do; I communicate with you, don't I? ;-)

But truthfully, I do believe you mean retardation.

428. joezan - 9/10/2002 10:33:56 PM

There's just something...I dunno --- weird about a middle-aged guy wearing political-message tee-shirts out in public, though. You know?

Like, I've got quite a few myself - you go to party rallies and there are always people outside the venue, going up and down the line handing them out. Some of them are just dumb. But some are quite amusing.

But you don't wear them in public - you take them home and wear them to bed -maybe to mow the lawn if all your other tees are in the wash.

Hell - I know they're a lot looser at Demo rallies, but at Repub rallies you're not even allowed to wear them inside.

429. joezan - 9/10/2002 10:35:17 PM

No - retardian - as in the secret language shared by retards.

430. judithathome - 9/10/2002 10:41:31 PM

but at Repub rallies you're not even allowed to wear them inside.

No doubt...I'm surprised they allow one to wear jeans.

Which, by the way, I wouldn't be caught dead in so you see, fashion is a very individual thing. I wouldn't wear jeans or tennis shoes but GW does and even encourages foreign dignitaries to do so. You are correct...there really is no accounting for taste.

431. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 10:43:29 PM

Jex- Thanks for the boost. I have no control with regard to fading—I think they prolly want you to buy mo' shirts?!

432. joezan - 9/10/2002 10:51:50 PM

Three of 'em - what are the chances?

433. judithathome - 9/10/2002 10:58:02 PM

Got that Smugness 101 thing down pat, huh Joey?

434. jexster - 9/10/2002 10:59:18 PM

Senate Fucks Bush - South Dakota Gets Same Disaster Benefits As Texus

Politics - Reuters

Bush Loss as U.S. Senate Approves Drought Aid
Tue Sep 10, 5:17 PM ET
By Charles Abbott

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -The Democratic-led U.S. Senate voted overwhelmingly to provide drought relief of $6 billion to farmers and ranchers on Tuesday in an election-year defeat for President Bush.

Senators voted 79-16 for aid to growers whose crops shriveled in the unrelenting heat and ranchers whose pastures turned brown from lack of rain. The assistance would cover crop and livestock losses both this year and last.

Majority Leader Tom Daschle, who proposed the aid, said there was no need for the spending cuts the administration insists should counter-balance drought aid.

"We don't need an offset," Daschle said. "This is an emergency."

About half of the United States has been hit by drought ranging from mild to extreme this year. In parts of South Dakota --Daschle's home state -- and Nebraska, Kansas and Montana, conditions were likened to Dust Bowl of the 1930s when vast numbers of farmers were driven from the land by drought.

435. concerned - 9/11/2002 12:56:36 AM

Election?...who cares about the election? This is a great way to meet chicks.

436. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:01:40 AM

Thank god! No more of this:

437. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:05:10 AM

Re. 434 -

Daschole likes to boost government spending along with his pork.

438. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:08:00 AM

Re. 428 -

When you're with a guy like that is when you're supposed to wear your 'I'm With Stupid' Tee.

439. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:38:19 AM

From the L-E-W-S Dept:

McKinney Loses Seat in Ga.
AP | 9/11/02 | KRISTEN WYATT


ATLANTA, Sep 11, 2002

State Rep. Billy McKinney lost the seat he has held for 30 years in a Democratic runoff Tuesday, three weeks after his daughter was denied a sixth term in Congress.

McKinney was humbled by John Noel, who drew 65 percent of the vote to 35 percent for McKinney.

Noel, 31, had never run for office before and elicited little media interest until he forced McKinney into the first runoff of his career.

The longtime legislator deflected criticism he was too closely tied to his daughter. Both are known for making inflammatory statements, and the elder McKinney wore a baseball cap from his daughter's campaign while waiting for returns Tuesday.

Cynthia McKinney lost her seat after a string of outrageous comments, including accusations that the Bush administration ignored warnings of the Sept. 11 attacks because friends in the defense industry would profit from a war.

McKinney said he and his daughter were "targeted" by Republicans and victims of a conservative smear campaign. He also accused Noel, who is white and a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, of bigotry.

"He's never been for black people, I'll tell you that," McKinney said Monday. The elder McKinney was also heard on television before his daughter's primary describing why he believed she faced such a tough battle: "J-E-W-S."

"He's (McKinney) a legend and a great and good man from what I know," Noel told WAGA-TV on Tuesday. "But I think what people are wanting ... is effective representation."



McKinney is defeated in a Democrat Primary and he blames Republicans?

His concession speech:

...blah blah racists blah blah jooos blah blah blah racist crackers blah blah racist joooos blah blah blah blah racist cracker joooos....

440. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:44:54 AM

The McKinneys are class. Pure class, Lefty style, that is.

441. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:49:07 AM

Notice how often the Left behaves as if it is afflicted with schizophrenic paranoia, with little comment from the media? Billy and Cynthia McKinney sound like they have a checklist of political and class enemies that they work into their hit list every chance they get, irrespective of the facts. But even Democrats are starting to say 'no' to hate, and the McKinneys are history.

442. concerned - 9/11/2002 2:06:34 AM

Re. 408, 410 -

Go ahead, rjb - blame the Republicans for this. You know you wanna. OTOH, what do you expect from the Democrat dumbfucks who couldn't even steal the 2000 election?

443. concerned - 9/11/2002 2:16:10 AM

How long will it be before LW nutcases concoct some outrageous conspiracy theory blaming Jeb Bush and the Florida Republican Party for Stooge Reno's 'Rat primary loss?

Everyone knows they're perfectly capable of perpetrating such nonsense and more than willing to do so.

444. concerned - 9/11/2002 2:39:17 AM

Let the Recounts Begin or The State that Couldn't Vote Straight

445. judithathome - 9/11/2002 9:27:20 AM

what do you expect from the Democrat dumbfucks who couldn't even steal the 2000 election

As oppossed to the Republicans, who did?

446. joezan - 9/11/2002 9:29:50 AM

Competence is as competence does, judy - never forget that.

447. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 10:09:21 AM

Hey, how about that Florida, hunh?

448. judithathome - 9/11/2002 10:14:08 AM

Competence is as competence does, judy - never forget that.

Oh, don't worry, I won't. And as soon as I see some from the White House....

449. jexster - 9/11/2002 11:28:57 AM

QUESTION: Are you planning to take extra precautions?

What extra precautions can an ordinary person take? John Ashcroft says we should be "alert but defiant," but I was alert and defiant before this, so I don't have a clue what I should do next. .

Glendy Chan, San Francisco.


Yes. I'm laying in extra beer and buffalo wings and retreating to my undisclosed location a la Dick Cheney. .
Vernon Burton, San Leandro

450. ronski - 9/11/2002 11:29:08 AM

connie,

He is blaming Republicans because in Georgia they can vote in the Democrat primary.

451. ronski - 9/11/2002 11:32:38 AM

But let's hear it for Florida, indeed. Aside from the fact that they have more trouble holding an election than some countries which just started having them, there were two interesting results.

Miami/Dade upheld their gay rights law, unlike what happened back in the Anita Bryant days.

And the gubernatorial primary is win-win.

Conservatives (and libertarians) will be glad to see Reno go, and the Democrats will be glad, or should be, to have actually nominated someone who has a real chance of defeating Jeb Bush.

452. jexster - 9/11/2002 11:42:31 AM

453. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 2:46:16 PM

He never looked better!

454. robertjayb - 9/11/2002 3:26:21 PM

This Barry Goldwater liberal is damn glad that Reno seems to be headed back to the swamps.

Looming large among the mistakes my man Bill (The Big Dog) made was not shitcanning Reno and the pious and incompetent Louis Freeh.

455. thoughtful - 9/11/2002 3:37:34 PM

Last time Cheney went to a "secure but undisclosed location" he went duck hunting in NY state...is it duck season again already?

456. robertjayb - 9/11/2002 4:05:22 PM

(AP)--Problems were reported in 14 of Florida's 67 counties, including six of the seven that were sued after the 2000 vote. The governor called it ``shameful.''

Yes, it is shameful. Now just who is the fucking governor anyway?

Another out-of-the loop Bush? What are the odds?

457. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 5:10:36 PM

458. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 5:14:34 PM

"is it duck season again already?"

I thought it was Wabbit Season.

459. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 5:45:32 PM

460. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 5:58:29 PM

????

461. jexster - 9/11/2002 8:56:47 PM

Families of Sept. 11 victims criticized President Bush on Monday for eroding civil rights in the U.S. war on terror, and said they believed airport security was no better than a year ago. Stephen Push, head of the Sept. 11 Homeland Security Alliance, gave the Bush administration a 'C-' grade on a report card in urging the government to temper military gusto with fair treatment of those placed under arrest. Push said he did not believe suspended judicial rights -- such as denying terrorist suspects access to a lawyer or expeditious trial -- were needed or desirable. 'I'm not sure it iss really necessary in order to protect us,' he told reporters... Their report criticized Bush for persistent aviation security troubles, reflected in media reports of guns and knives being carried onto planes.

findlaw.com

462. robertjayb - 9/11/2002 9:02:10 PM

The Big Dog on Letterman tonight...

463. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:02:29 AM

rondums -

He is blaming Republicans because in Georgia they can vote in the Democrat primary.


That's not the reason he lost. He lost because he simply did not receive sufficient support from Democrats. The total Democrat primary turnout was lower than average and yet he was beat nearly 2:1.

464. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:06:27 AM

465. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:10:17 AM

466. ronski - 9/12/2002 12:10:40 AM

Con,

I didn't say that was the reason he lost. But you seemed unaware of the fact that Georgia primaries permit crossovers.

He also blamed blacks for not coming out to support him.

I do think you and I can agree that his loss is a blessing, however.

467. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:13:53 AM

Re. 466 -

Well, you simply assumed wrong regarding what I'm aware of. I have relatives who were in Cynthia McKinney's district and we discussed that very issue.

468. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:19:04 AM

I do think you and I can agree that his loss is a blessing, however.

True. The kind of divisive rhetoric which characterized both him and his daughter is a venom to civil society.

469. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:24:17 AM

Of course, some of the rhetoric I indulge in here could be criticized on similar grounds (although my utterances are not nearly as delusional or just plain stupid as what the McKinney's puke up). But then, I'm not an elected public servant, either;)

470. ronski - 9/12/2002 12:29:23 AM

I am not sure how anyone could assume anything other than that you were ignorant of the Georgia primary system given what was in your post, but seeing as I have Georgia relatives as well, and we are both glad to see both McKinneys history, let us bid each other a peaceful good night.

471. concerned - 9/12/2002 12:32:49 AM

Re. 470 -

rondums -

I don't see how you stand to profit by attempting to ignore the obvious irony of that post, but suit yourself.

472. concerned - 9/12/2002 1:20:43 AM

Anybody recall when I posted the following, oh way back around yesterday?

How long will it be before LW nutcases concoct some outrageous conspiracy theory blaming Jeb Bush and the Florida Republican Party for Stooge Reno's 'Rat primary loss?

Everyone knows they're perfectly capable of perpetrating such nonsense and more than willing to do so.



Democrats to Blame Florida on GOP


That didn't take long, not long at all. And looky here. Terry McAuliffe, DNC chair, is heading up the 'Rat circus. Does anybody wonder why I often think so much of the Democrat leadership are disreputable buffoons?

473. robertjayb - 9/12/2002 4:39:31 AM

LATEST COUNT

Bye, Janet...

Florida Governor (D)


6717 of 6717 precincts reporting

Bill McBride 600,425 44.5%
Janet Reno 592,434 43.9%
Daryl L. Jones 156,165 11.6%

474. judithathome - 9/12/2002 11:25:48 AM

What? No comments on GW's UN speech? No predictions on how low the Dow Jones will sink today?

475. jexster - 9/12/2002 11:40:52 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Federal Reserve ( news - web sites) Chairman Alan Greenspan ( news - web sites) said on Thursday the U.S. economy has weathered the impact from falling stock markets, lower investment and the Sept. 11 attacks well so far, but warned a swift return to government spending discipline was vital for economic health.

$100,000,000,000 adventure in Iraq anyone?

The UN delegates weren't exactly jumpin out of their seats and neither was the stock market - off 189 at last check..

476. joezan - 9/12/2002 11:41:43 AM

"Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence," Bush told the U.N. General Assembly. "Saddam Hussein has made the case against himself."

Clarity.

No bs - just the facts.

"Saddam has made the case against himself."

Beautiful.

477. Wombat - 9/12/2002 11:47:14 AM

And he has been making that case since 1980, and is still in power. Why?

478. judithathome - 9/12/2002 11:49:00 AM

Because we have SUVs that need fuel?

479. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 11:55:22 AM

And he has been making that case since 1980, and is still in power. Why?

Good point. Maybe we'll do something about it now.

480. robertjayb - 9/12/2002 11:56:01 AM

481. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 12:12:15 PM

Actually the timeline on that chart looks as though it started going "up" after Bush's speech. Of course it may start going down now--because it was posted here!

The biggest "external" factors affecting the market today, I would think, are Greenspan and the anniversary of what happened last year. Last year at this time, the market was plunging, and when people worry that the market might plunge, it usually does.

482. judithathome - 9/12/2002 12:14:22 PM

It DID start to climb after he stopped talking. If he would just keep his mouth shut..... ;-)

483. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 12:16:07 PM

Whatever.

484. joezan - 9/12/2002 12:18:52 PM

What kinda gas mileage you getting on the Jag, judy - 13, 14 mpg?

485. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 12:20:49 PM

Whoa. Nelson Mandela has some extremely strong comments about Bush, Cheney "the dinosaur" and some US interventions abroad.

486. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/12/2002 12:24:59 PM

487. JJBiener - 9/12/2002 1:12:38 PM

Banks - Has Mandela developed Alzheimer's? He says the US is a threat to world peace. Exactly which "world peace" would he be referring to? The peace between Israel and the Palestinians? The peace between China and Taiwan? Is there really peace if there has to be peacekeepers on the ground? If Mandela somehow thinks the US is disturbing an otherwise peaceful world, he needs to tune into CNN a bit more often.

488. JJBiener - 9/12/2002 1:13:32 PM

Gee, Wiz, I think we saw that coming a mile away. It might be funny if it weren't so predictable.

489. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 2:05:48 PM

Here is what Mandela said:

He said that the United States' backing for a coup by the Shah of Iran in 1953 had led to that country's Islamic revolution in 1979.

On Afghanistan, Mr Mandela said that US support for the mujahideen (including Osama Bin Laden) against the Soviet Union and its refusal to work with the United Nations after the Soviet withdrawal led to the Taleban taking power.

"If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace," he said.

He also said the following wrt Iraq:

It is clearly a decision that is motivated by George W Bush's desire to please the arms and oil industries in the United States of America," he said.

He said that no evidence had been presented to support the claim that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, while former UN weapons inspector in Baghdad Scott Ritter has said there is no such evidence.


Rather a precise pair of arguments.

490. judithathome - 9/12/2002 2:10:16 PM

What kinda gas mileage you getting on the Jag, judy - 13, 14 mpg?

Joezan, I drive my car about 20 miles a week two weeks out of four and make 2 round trips of 52 miles each twice a month. My mechanic gripes at me all the time because I don't drive this car enough. So shut the hell up.

491. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/12/2002 2:11:32 PM

JJ- If you read the Mandela piece and noted what he said regarding the oil industry, you would have understood why I posted it.

Are we back in jaundice mode so soon?

For what it's worth, I think Bush's speech will be effective . . . and ultimately disastrous for the world.

492. Cellar Door - 9/12/2002 2:19:41 PM

Yeah J.J. I turn into CNN and see Dubbya threatening to go to war with Iraq without support from any of our (now former) allies.

Going back into history ( a dangerous thing to do, I know) I see the U.S. sponsoring death squads in Central and South America, overturning duly elected governments (remember Chile on September 11th way back when?) waging decades of war in Southeast Asia, and generally acting like a stuck-up PIG everywhere it choses to go.

493. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 2:26:12 PM

Now, here is my own stance wrt Iraq.

1) I don't see anything wrong with going to war over oil. I'm a subject and beneficiary of US Empire, an empire run on cheap and plentiful petroleum, and if it takes going to war to ensure the health of American Empire, I'm all for it. I wish that there would be at least as much money spent on finding alternative energy sources for the long term, but per se I have no objection to going to war on a pretext when the real reason is to secure oil supplies.

2) I am deeply troubled, however, by the mismanagement of the first battle in this grandiose "war on terror." The Us does need to not look blatantly hypocritical, and short-sighted, because it does need support in prosecuting the war. It had the world's greatest excuse to hammer the Taliban out of Afghanistan, it had the world totally on its side in bringing peace and light to that benighted country and region and full support to get Bin Laden. Instead, the US has let Afghanistan devolve into warlordism, is reduced to directly protecting the life of a hamstrung and near-powerless Karzai, has let all the top Taliban and Al-Qaeda fuck off to parts unknown, and has allowed extremely worrisome developments to take place in every one of Afghanistan's neighbors - from Pakistan to the C. Asian dictatorships to Iran.

3) Now, without so much as a mention of the supposedly paramount mission of getting Al Qaeda (which seems to be holed up primarily in ally Pakistan), we're off to Iraq and this time there isn't even a coherent rhetorical or ideological umbrella built to justify it. No, what the Bushites have been is vague, and now outright stupid. The UN speech was stupid, and will ensure that the US looks duplicitous, self-serving, and hypocritical. Better than Bush hadn't even bothered.

494. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 2:27:33 PM

Better THAT Bush hadn't even bothered. Honestly, every time he opens his mouth and talks international policy, even when tightly scripted, he manages to make the US look worse.

495. betty - 9/12/2002 2:28:20 PM

Wiz, thanks for that cartoon...I put it on my blog because that's what i was writing about today.

Cellar, once again fast and beautiful and right (in that left sort of way).

496. JJBiener - 9/12/2002 2:40:20 PM

He said that no evidence had been presented to support the claim that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, while former UN weapons inspector in Baghdad Scott Ritter has said there is no such evidence.

No evidence? Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds in the 80's. The Kurds are still suffering from the effects. Does Mandela think Iraqi arms manufacturers have somehow forgotten to how to make chemical weapons?

It is clearly a decision that is motivated by George W Bush's desire to please the arms and oil industries in the United States of America," he said.

Just because Mandela says something it isn't automatically true. For him to speculate on Bush's motives from his vantage point in South Africa is the height of arrogance. I expect this type of blather from Dick Gephardt, but in his case he has something to gain from this political pandering.

The Iraqi government has shown itself to be a threat to its neighbors and its own people. It is naive to think it won't again take up arms. When the attack comes, do we know for sure what form it will take and what price will ultimately be paid as a result? It seems like we are surrounded by latter day Chamberlains who believe that we can leave someone like Saddaam in power and still have "Peace in our time."

497. judithathome - 9/12/2002 2:45:03 PM

For him to speculate on Bush's motives from his vantage point in South Africa is the height of arrogance

He has as much right to his "arrogance" as Bush does from his position, claiming he knows what is best for the Mideast and the reat of the world.

498. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 2:53:25 PM

Biener,

You can't help it, I know, but it is very tedious to read your mealy-mouthed posts.

1) Iraq has never attacked the USA.

2) Not a single Iraqi was among the terrorists who attacked this country a year ago.

3) Not one scrap, iota or jot of proof has been presented to show that Iraq was in any way connected to the 9/11 attacks.

4) The Arab community, including most of Iraq's neighbors, including almost every one who has realistic reasons to fear Iraq, is firmly against a war with Hussein.

5) The US has a tendency to fuck up, very badly, in the aftermath of military campaigns. It fucked up the first time after the covert war against the Soviets in Afghanistan, it looks like its going to repeat its errors this time around. I have very minimal comfort that it will do the wise thing when it comes to replacing Hussein.

All in all, I favor containment while the US works hard to completely sort out Afghanistan under a working Karzai government, while it works hard to get a peace process sorted and underway in Pal/Israel with a two-state solution in sight, and while we figure out whether Bin Laden is alive and whether Al Qaeda still has fangs. Then Iraq can be aimed at.

499. Wombat - 9/12/2002 3:10:39 PM

Marj:

I would suggest that the main concern of Iraq's neighbors is that the US will do its usual "OK, we've got rid of the baddies for you, now the (fill in the blank) can put themselves back together in a state of freedom and it is no longer our concern..oh and since we spent money on the military campaign, go ask Europe or whoever to take the lead in coming up with development and reconstruction funds."

I would also suggest that Mandela's comments are informed in part by personal pique against Dick Cheney and his support for Mandela's continued imprisonment in the 1980s.

500. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 3:29:30 PM

I agree with part one of 499, Wombat. I think I said as much in my post. However, I don't buy the personal pique bit wrt Mandela, who I admit I will listen to closely and with great respect on and about whatever he chooses.

Remember please that this is a man who was able to demonstrate an astonishing lack of personal pique towards the people who jailed him for decades on Robben Island.

501. Wombat - 9/12/2002 3:35:35 PM

Marj:

1) Mandela's forgiving and statesmanlike manner was politically necessary in South Africa.

2) He is now retired, and has more freedom to express himself as he feels. In the cite, Cheney is the only one who merits a derogatory nickname.

502. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 3:38:53 PM

Mandela's interview

There is no particular reason for Mandela to be exceptionally brilliant on the subject of Iraq, any more so than Ramsey Clark, Gerhard Schroeder, the Pope, or any other world leader. It would appear from his answers that race "colors" his view of the picture.

503. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 3:39:35 PM

The link above is to the original interview, rather than a report on it.

504. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 3:40:21 PM

Well, Wombat, if you feel that personal pique is why Mandela trenchantly refers to Cheney as a "dinosaur", I'll not argue very much.

But if you then take the rest of the comments about the US as indication of the same personal pique, then I firmly disagree.

505. thoughtful - 9/12/2002 3:42:15 PM

Hmmm. Bush spoke. Dow down 206. Still a strong correlation.

506. marjoribanks - 9/12/2002 3:43:42 PM

Thanks for the link, Dantes. Good interview with a plain-speaking Mandela.

507. jexster - 9/12/2002 3:52:52 PM

508. joezan - 9/12/2002 4:08:58 PM

Iraqis are Black? (according to Mandela)

Boy - you learn something new every day.

Interesting, though - Louis Farrakhan made the very same claim in the very same context back during the Gulf War.

509. thoughtful - 9/12/2002 4:30:04 PM

jj,

"Has Mandela developed Alzheimer's? He says the US is a threat to world peace."

Let's put it this way. The US is going to make a first strike attack against another sovereign nation and remove it's leader. Doing so risks major disruptions to the world's supply of oil. Other risks, (courtesy of the Hertzberg article I quoted earlier) It would risk the collapse of the delicate but ongoing global system of anti-terror police work and information sharing; the overthrow of acceptable regimes in an arc stretching from Jordan to Pakistan, which already possesses a nuclear arsenal; the widening of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; the enthronement of preëmption as a prerogative of power, not only in the Middle East but also in places like the Hindu Kush and the straits of Taiwan; and a long and expensive occupation of Iraq that diverts vast quantities of American resources, military and otherwise, into a nation-building enterprise that might succeed mainly in provoking, and providing targets for, new terrorism.

Sure sounds like a grand step toward disrupting world peace to me.

510. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 4:32:39 PM

Of course Iraqis are black. Otherwise George Carlin's comedy doesn't work, either.

According to him, the last white people we bombed were the Germans in WWII because the Serbs aren't really white, either.

To make the tired charges of racism fly you call Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice lawn jockeys (as is Jexster's want) and ignore the fact that America's armed forces are "blacker" than Iraq's. (And also ignore the fact that this nation as a whole isn't exactly Anglo-Saxon-Nordic anymore, if it ever was.)

You'd think there ought to be a correlation between "race consciousness" and racism--that the people who always notice everyone's race would be the most racist--but I guess not.

As for the UN, I seem to recall that the US backed Annan's selection, whereas France opposed it.

511. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/12/2002 4:38:36 PM

512. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 4:39:22 PM

Not white:

513. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 4:43:40 PM

Hey, Wizzo, maybe you could but a word balloon in his mouth saying, "I knew I shouldn't have eaten that imperial margarine."

Hohoho! That'd have everyone rolling in the floor.

514. betty - 9/12/2002 4:45:49 PM

I just found 515. betty - 9/12/2002 4:46:57 PM

I just found this Eminem video through Guerilla News Network.

I had no idea that Marshall Mathers as the Beaver ever got political. it was like a harder 3rd Base, but not as smart, but then eminem doesn't have a degree from Columbia.

516. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/12/2002 4:54:15 PM

Hey Miserable, maybe you can sell used porn videos when you hand out your business card to accident victims?

517. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/12/2002 5:07:18 PM

Yeah, like the reality is any better than the lampoon . . .

518. joezan - 9/12/2002 10:47:50 PM

…Scott Ritter, a former United Nations arms inspector who is in Baghdad, has said that there is no evidence whatsoever of [development of weapons of] mass destruction. Neither Bush nor [British Prime Minister] Tony Blair has provided any evidence that such weapons exist. But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that. Why should there be one standard for one country, especially because it is black, and another one for another country, Israel, that is white.
---Nelson Mandela

Two Black guys - (must be a rap concert):



"Yo, Tareq! Waddit be like, homey!"

"Mah man Nellie-Nel - waddup, dawg!"519. JJBiener - 9/12/2002 11:04:43 PM

Arabs are not black and Jews are not white. Mandela is full of shit.

520. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 11:07:02 PM

Bush spoke. Dow down 206. Still a strong correlation.

But, hey, life expectancy is up! I'll take that trade any day....

U.S. Life Expectancy Hits New High


Death is on the decline for babies, adults and older people alike, with AIDS, homicide, cancer and heart disease all claiming fewer lives, the government reports in its annual look at American health.


Thank you, President Bush!

521. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 11:07:32 PM

Toys.

522. concerned - 9/13/2002 12:51:20 AM

I think it's time to coin a new phrase: "Blacks of Convenience", somewhat in the same way that Hibernians sometimes claim that 'Everybody is Irish', with the difference that Blacks coldheartedly specify particular individuals, variegated national populations, etc. in an attempt to play the racist card in a singularly obfuscatory way.

Of course, I'm part Black Irish, so I know about these things.

I imagine many Kurds, Arabs, Assyrians, Turkomans, Iranians, Lurs, and Armenians would be quite disgusted to find they have been arbitrarily described as Negroid by an ignorant senile Marxist racist.

523. concerned - 9/13/2002 12:59:09 AM

Anybody who claims that any prospective US military action in Iraq is 'about oil' is either deliberately lying or is just too imbecilic or befuddled to safely care for him/herself. But then, Big Brotherism's the basic idea behind Leftism, isn't it?

524. concerned - 9/13/2002 1:22:13 AM

Reno Refuses to Concede to McBride

Mote Democrats - I hope you're loving this as much as I am. Even Marion Frances Berry is now eating humble pie big time regarding all her bullshit about the 2000 election.

525. concerned - 9/13/2002 1:54:56 AM

Better watch out, McBride. 'Waco' Reno is comin' for ya!

526. concerned - 9/13/2002 2:49:48 AM

Or, as I call him: Chrétin

527. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/13/2002 8:58:18 AM

#525 is hysterical, connie--thanks for the laugh.

528. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/13/2002 10:51:46 AM

529. concerned - 9/13/2002 10:55:00 AM

1,800 Uncounted Votes Found in Miami-Dade

Does this bring back memories or what? Calling Terry McAuliffe: Who's scammin' who, or what, now?

530. concerned - 9/13/2002 10:55:33 AM

531. jexster - 9/13/2002 12:55:02 PM

"This stock-market situation — what are the military options?" That was the caption of a New Yorker cartoon last month. But these days reality has a way of outrunning satire; way back in June the CNBC pundit Larry Kudlow published a column in The Washington Times with the headline "Taking Back the Market — by Force." In it he argued for an invasion of Iraq to boost the Dow.

Pretty amazing stuff, though not as amazing as a July column in The New York Post by John Podhoretz, whose headline read "October Surprise, Please," followed by the injunction "Go On, Mr. President: Wag the Dog."

Stocks and Bombs

532. jexster - 9/13/2002 1:17:31 PM

Bush's Other War - EU Raises the Stakes

533. jexster - 9/13/2002 2:06:33 PM

THE PAST half-year has seen Washington retreating from its promised engagement in the international AIDS crisis. Back in March, Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.) used an article on the opposite page to promise an extra $500 million this year to fight the transmission of the disease from mothers to newborn children. In June Mr. Helms's legislative partner, Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), scaled back this promise to $200 million, having persuaded the White House to support a further $300 million over the next two years. Now even that deflated promise is in doubt. The $200 million was supposed to have been appropriated this year, but President Bush overruled Congress and refused to spend the $5 billion emergency appropriation of which the AIDS money was a part. The administration then bumped the $200 million forward to next year -- but even that may not be forthcoming.


Wagging the Dog Costs More Than $100,000,000,000

534. jexster - 9/13/2002 2:08:03 PM

GOP Running Liked Wagged Dogs from SS Privitization Scam

535. iiibbb - 9/13/2002 4:50:50 PM

Those damn republicans.... er democrats... are trying to steal the election from the...er... democrats!!

Do you think this one will go to the supreme court too?


I said it all along... blame theincompitant voting commissioners for shitty elections in Florida... not the Supreme Court.

536. alistairconnor - 9/13/2002 5:18:10 PM

Well, it's just a teeny bit ironic :

Time and time again, the US is the first to adopt new standards. Look at your quant 110 volt electricity, the shitty state of your TV signals, or the mess of cell phone standards.

Democracy is the same... The US did it first... time to update the antiquated technology you're using.

537. alistairconnor - 9/13/2002 5:18:59 PM

... quaint...

538. concerned - 9/13/2002 5:32:38 PM

Reno Seeks Statewide Recount in Fla.

Here it is, folks, the additional manual recount you've been asking for:) True, it isn't for the 2000 presidential election, but Bore has already had more than his fair share of chances to steal that one.

539. jexster - 9/13/2002 10:30:47 PM

Four or five Republican senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee may now be willing to support an independent commission, even though the Bush administration is against the idea. Apparently frustrated by the minimal progress the Joint Congressional Intelligence Committee is making, senators who were once reluctant to support an independent commission now believe it may be the only way to get some answers as to why intelligence agencies were caught flat-footed on September 11. The joint committee's funding runs out in February, and lawmakers on the committee say they have been met with consistent resistance in getting information from the agencies they are investigating. Sen. Richard Shelby, R-AL, now supports the idea and even Senate Intelligence Chairman Bob Graham, D-FL [says] he would vote for it... Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MS, told reporters earlier this week he is still skeptical of any and all commissions because no one pays attention to them."


Author of the 9-1-1 Commish Bill in the House, Cong. Tim Roemer (D-Indiana)

Will see him at the Big Wedding next month in Tiburon.

540. jexster - 9/13/2002 10:35:29 PM

541. Cellar Door - 9/14/2002 12:23:54 PM

"Some kind of princess"

542. jexster - 9/14/2002 1:35:27 PM

Let's Go Kill Us Some San Niggers for Bush:
Anti-terror brouhaha in Florida nets nothing
Arab Americans irate at spate of false alarms

"Many eye-talians were lost on 9-1-1" Bloody Boob of the US

543. Cellar Door - 9/14/2002 1:39:33 PM

I'm sure Fox will give that heroic waitress her own show.

544. judithathome - 9/14/2002 1:45:30 PM

Where does everyone get the idea she was a waitress? She was a nurse who just got off duty and was having breakfast with her son.

545. Cellar Door - 9/14/2002 1:59:55 PM

What ever she was, she was lying.

547. jexster - 9/14/2002 2:52:05 PM

oops sorry PLEASE DELETE!!!!

548. joezan - 9/14/2002 11:04:33 PM

I think the woman probably knew they were messing with her.
(Heee-heeeee)

549. arkymalarky - 9/15/2002 12:16:10 AM

Zowie!

Coming right up!

550. concerned - 9/15/2002 2:03:00 AM

Eyes tell voters not to believe ears on counts

I want Marion Frances Berry and Jesse Jackson hitting the streets RIGHT NOW to protest this diabolical scheme to prevent every vote counting! This is far, far worse than 2000.

551. concerned - 9/15/2002 3:03:34 AM

Don't count Reno out yet. It appears probable that thousands of missing votes are turning up in Reno strongholds, heh heh heh.

552. concerned - 9/15/2002 3:43:54 AM

Heere's Jesse on Reno:

Jackson said he found it "ironic," that in the aftermath of yet another fouled Florida election, Reno had finally come to the realization that voters' rights needed to be protected.

"When she had the power, she would not protect our votes," Jackson said. "Now, she needs the power with our votes." Reno lost a narrow race for Florida's Democratic gubernatorial nomination Tuesday, but has yet to concede.

Jackson told those attending the 'March for Justice' that he invited the former attorney general to Florida after it became evident that voting rights violations occurred during the 2000 presidential election.

But Jackson said Reno and the Department of Justice (DOJ) were "absent and quiet and silent" upon being alerted to those violations which clearly fell under federal jurisdiction. He said the DOJ's response to him was: "We'll handle it after the fact."

"When she was attorney general, she could have protected those rights," Jackson said.

So what happened to letting every vote count, PseudoRev. Jackson? Is kicking Reno when she's down really that much more important to you? What ever happened to 'tolerance' and 'fairness', two words you have apparently forgotten the meaning of?

553. concerned - 9/15/2002 3:47:24 AM

Jesse Jackson: a 'reverend' who was never ordained, a 'politician' who was never elected to anything.

554. OhioSTOPAS - 9/15/2002 6:51:54 AM

Global warming? What global warming?

"For the first time in six years, the annual federal report on air pollution trends has no section on global warming, though President Bush has said that slowing the growth of emissions linked to warming is a priority for his administration.

"The decision to delete the chapter on climate change was made by top officials at the Environmental Protection Agency with White House approval, White House officials said.

"'Some people at pretty high levels in my organization were saying, `Take it out,' ' said an E.P.A. official . . ."

555. judithathome - 9/15/2002 7:58:41 AM

If it's not seen, it can't exist. Too bad they don't use such zeal on the air quality, which, for the past week in my area, has been at Level Orange and can be seen quite easily...the air we've been breathing has been a greyish white and it burns one's eyes and tightens one's chest.

Local weather guys swear it's from "the Midwest" but seeing as how my town is in the middle of the NAFTA road in Texas, where GW was never too concerned about emmission standards for his buddie's oil refineries and other huge polluting plants, I tend to doubt it all flowed down from the midwest.

556. Cellar Door - 9/15/2002 10:23:38 AM

Jesse Jackson: a 'reverend' who was never ordained, a 'politician' who was never elected to anything.

Dubbya wasn't elected President. He was appointed by a rigged Court.

557. thoughtful - 9/15/2002 5:22:59 PM

They heard us talkin' at the NY Times about the W. effect on the stock market. Be sure to click for the chart under "Multimedia". Amazing.

558. ElliottRW - 9/15/2002 6:37:57 PM

Thoughtful,

Perhaps you could fill me in on the 'W' effect; I find the NYT registration form somewhat intimidating.

Thanks,
Elliott

559. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/15/2002 7:33:33 PM

The Curse of the Dubya
By DAVID E. SANGER

THIS has been a dreadful year for the stock market. The Dow Jones industrial average, for example, is down 17 percent since Jan. 1. The reasons given for such dismal performance are familiar by now: terrorism, corporate and Wall Street corruption, the business cycle, which demanded a downturn after the long years of growth.

But what if there's another, real, reason?

What if there is a curse of the Dubya?

Wall Street practitioners — who need a fall guy — note that President Bush's big addresses to the nation this year have largely been greeted by market drops.
It's true. Sort of. But not entirely.

By market measures, last week was a bad one for Mr. Bush. The president's powerful indictment of Iraq in the United Nations may have converted some to his cause, but was followed by a 202 point drop in the Dow.

The White House shrugged it off, pointing out that the real measure of success is whether allies who had been skeptical of confronting Saddam Hussein are now re-thinking their position.

"The real question," one administration official said, trying his best not to sound defensive, "is how did the Iraqi market do?"

After Mr. Bush's last big speech, about corporate conduct, the Dow dropped 179 points. And after one at the Reichstag in Berlin it fell 112 points.

True, the year started well: the State of the Union speech, in which Iraq, Iran and North Korea were famously described as an "Axis of Evil," led to a rally the next day of 144 points. But then again, on the day of the speech the market opened at 9,618, a level investors would be happy to see today.

560. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/15/2002 7:34:08 PM

It closed Friday at 8312.69, and this is only September. More presidential speeches loom, mostly about nuclear disarmament and the prospect of war, subjects the markets never like — no matter who is speaking about them.

561. ElliottRW - 9/15/2002 10:38:40 PM

Thanks, Wiz.

563. wonkers2 - 9/16/2002 6:40:06 AM

JoeZan: Have you jumped on the Granholm bandwagon yet? I attended her kickoff fundraiser recently. She's impressive--high energy, smart and good lookin'. She and her hubby are looking more and more like Hillary and Bill, except Jennifer's more personable and better looking (great legs) and her husband is nearly as smart as Bill without his bad habits. Her husband graduated magna from Yale Divinity School and Harvard Law School. He works as a consultant and eminence gris to Jennifer. She went from high school cheerleader to Hollywood to Berkeley to Harvard Law School. Granholm is a pragmatic moderate Democrat. I left the fund raiser thinking that her election governor of Michigan will only be her first step. At the very least, after serving the max 9 years as governor, she'll be ready to replace Carl Levin in the Senate.

564. judithathome - 9/16/2002 10:20:51 AM

No Bomb, Just Plans For A Car

"Our conversation at Shoney's had nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11 or 9/13," said Kambiz Butt, one of the three students. "We were basically sitting down having a regular conversation about our trip, the experience we were about to face in Miami, we were talking about school and friends."

Eavesdroppers used to be called nosy gossips; now they're called Patriots.

565. ronski - 9/16/2002 10:37:49 AM

I dunno. I still think it's likely that these guys are three assholes who played a joke on the waitress, a very sick, disturbing joke. And people who would do that would not be my idea of the best future physicians.

And I don't care much for the tone of the remark: "...all because of a statement made by some woman."

566. Cellar Door - 9/16/2002 10:48:23 AM

She wasn'ta waitress she was a patron.

I don't believe her for a minute. She drops a dime on them and then goes on Faux News.

I smell Lucianne.

567. judithathome - 9/16/2002 11:06:09 AM

Well, Ronski, what would have had them refer to her as? She is a woman, correct? I guess they could have called her a patronperson.

568. ronski - 9/16/2002 11:21:57 AM

Still sounds like it might have been Islamist female-bashing to me.

569. judithathome - 9/16/2002 11:31:56 AM

Oh, and it doesn't sound like she was giving in to bit of Georgia crackerism with prejudice toward "people of mid-Eastern heritage"? Even her son, who heard what they were saying, too, said he thought they were not talking about anything serious.

Do you think she'd have reacted the way she did if it had been white frat boys from Georgia Tech?

570. judithathome - 9/16/2002 12:34:06 PM

"...all because of a statement made by some woman."

I just heard the press statement from which this remark came, erroneously, as it happens. He said "...because of a remark someone reported..." Maybe the reporter mangled the quote.

571. judithathome - 9/16/2002 12:35:02 PM

After all, reporters are getting pretty used to changing around the things Bush says..could be habit forming.

572. thoughtful - 9/16/2002 12:57:28 PM

Re the W. Effect, note too what the dow did while W was on vacation...Thanks wiz for posting the chart and text.

573. thoughtful - 9/16/2002 1:04:33 PM

I also recommend Frank Rich in the NY Times...he so well spells out how I feel about this W. crowd.

"What we have been getting instead is the one thing worse than no data — false data. For months, administration officials have been trying to implicate Iraq in 9/11 with the story of an alleged April 2001 meeting in Prague between Mohamed Atta and a Saddam spy. But the C.I.A. can find no evidence of this, and the 21-page fact sheet the U.S. released with the president's speech mentions no Saddam-9/11 link at all. As for nuclear arms, last weekend in his appearance with Tony Blair the president referred to a 1998 International Atomic Energy Agency report that said Iraq was "six months away" from developing a nuclear weapon, adding "I don't know what more evidence we need." Plenty more, as it happens, because an agency spokesman says no such report exists."

and

"It's this high-handedness that echoes the run-up to Vietnam....there is a widening credibility gap between the White House's marketing of the war and the known facts. The arrogance of this C.E.O. administration, which gives citizens no better information than companies like Halliburton gave to its stockholders, recalls the hubris of those Ivy League and corporate "whiz kids" on Robert McNamara's Pentagon team who saw themselves as better and brighter than the rest of us."

574. thoughtful - 9/16/2002 1:04:43 PM

and

"What happens if Al Qaeda attacks the U.S., or if Afghanistan or Pakistan falls while we're at war in Iraq? Can we continue to meet all our commitments with an all-volunteer army? As budget deficits spiral into the foreseeable future, where will we get the tens of billions of dollars we need to support the post-Saddam Iraq that we will surely inherit? Is Saddam our new focus because he's the most catastrophic threat or is there another agenda that should be spelled out, whether it involves oil or unfinished Bush family business?"

575. joezan - 9/16/2002 1:42:08 PM

Funny...I didn't hear a thing from jex, thoughtful, or anyone else about how we needed better reasons to bomb Iraq when Clinton did it.

576. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 1:45:29 PM

[Rich] so well spells out how I feel about this W. crowd.

"Feel" is indeed the operative word, but maybe you should change your moniker in that case to "scatter-brained."

For months, administration officials have been trying to implicate Iraq in 9/11 with the story of an alleged April 2001 meeting in Prague between Mohamed Atta and a Saddam spy.

Frank Rich, if not you, should know better because his own newspaper (lefty rag NY Times) had to repudiate its earlier article on this very subject. The source of this meeting has always been Czech intelligence--not any American agency.

If not intentionally lying, Rich is grossly ignorant in his comments.

The 21-page fact sheet the U.S. released with the president's speech mentions no Saddam-9/11 link at all.

Again, deliberately twisting the truth for propaganda's sake. Bush wasn't trying to persuade the UN to go to war over Iraq's possible links to 9/11. He was pointing out Saddam's record re UN Resolutions. The paper was called "A Decade of Deception and Defiance: Saddam Hussein's Defiance of the United Nations", not "My Laundry List of Why Saddam's a Bad Guy."

As for Saddam's nuclear timetable, apparently both Rich and you aren't much on reading reports from Iraqi defectors. That's okay if it helps you sleep better at night, but don't pretend that such documents don't exist.

The rest of Rich you quote is a spluttering laundry list of catchphrases that earns the moniker "scatter-brained": Halliburton, Robert McNamara, budget deficits, oil, Pakistan...." Throw enough incoherent ju-ju out there and maybe, just maybe, you'll touch a nerve with someone.

But don't for a minute call it "thoughtful."

577. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:00:17 PM

578. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:03:25 PM

The rest of Rich you quote is a spluttering laundry list of catchphrases that earns the moniker "scatter-brained": Halliburton, Robert McNamara, budget deficits, oil, Pakistan...." Throw enough incoherent ju-ju out there and maybe, just maybe, you'll touch a nerve with someone.

Wag my fuckin dog you moron...

Let's review the bidding re: pretexts for pig shit:

-9-11 Rumsfeld orders Irak Attak planning to begin
- Nov.-Jan 01-02 - Powell instigates Operation Embarrass the Imbeciles - sends Woolsey on feckless chase for OBL links

- March-9/11/02 - Bush regime fails to present any credible case that Saddam poses a nuclear or CBW threat or indeed threat in any other form

- 9.12 to present - Bush regime changes rationale to "War to Enforce UN resolutions", itself a patent crock, for UN Resolution 687 is "self-enforcing" the Council having decided in 1991 that the remedy for non-compliance would be sanctions, and amended (re-adopted) same just a few months ago

579. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:04:01 PM

340. jexster - 9/16/02 5:52:46 PM

Message # 335 A more detailed report appeared in the Times of London but be that as it may, its rank speculation and suspect as well.


- Dr Hamza gave evidence on Iraq's nuke capability before Senator Joe Biden?s Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearings on Iraq in Washington last August but never mentioned this new "threat".

- The Carnegie Endowment interviewed Dr. Hamza in connection with the section of its new book on proliferation
dealing with Irak:



341. jexster - 9/16/02 5:53:30 PM

Nuclear Weapon Capability

Iraq ratified the Non-Proliferation Treaty in 1969, pledging not to manufacture nuclear weapons and agreeing to place all its nuclear materials and facilities under safeguards. Soon thereafter, Iraq began violating its NPT obligations by secretly pursuing a nuclear weapon program. The program was centered around the Osiraq research reactor purchased from France in 1976, which was capable of irradiating uranium to produce significant quantities of plutonium. Saddam Hussein planned to slowly extract enough plutonium for a bomb. Israel's preemptive strike on the reactor in June 1981 did not end Iraq's program, but expanded it.

Iraqi defector and former nuclear weapons director Khadir Hamza says, "Israel made a mistake." The bombing ended the plutonium effort but began a new program to produce highly-enriched uranium. "At the beginning we had approximately five hundred people working, which increased to seven thousand working after the Israeli bombing. The secret program became a much larger and ambitious program."1

580. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:04:13 PM

The program was substantial, but plagued with problems. Still, Iraq may have been only a few years away from producing enough highly-enriched uranium for a bomb at the time of the Gulf War. After the war, International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors supervised the destruction of most of the nuclear weapon program facilities and removed all weapon-usable nuclear material from Iraq. In 1998, the IAEA reaffirmed that there were no indications that Iraq had achieved its objective of producing nuclear weapons, nor were there indications that Iraq had produced more than a few grams of weapon-usable nuclear material or had otherwise acquired such material.

342. jexster -9/16/02 5:53:41 PM

It also reported that there were no indications that there remained in Iraq any physical capability for the production of weapon-usable nuclear material of any practical significance and that the IAEA had removed all weapon-usable nuclear material (research reactor fuel) from Iraq.2

Still, Iraq may have secretly reconstructed some nuclear capabilities. Some experts believe Saddam may have a workable design for a weapon, but no official report claims that he yet has the material to put in it. CIA officials told the Senate in March 2002, that Iraq, unconstrained, would need several years to produce enough material for a nuclear weapon.3

343. jexster - 9/16/02 5:57:52 PM

The CIA also knows Dr. Hamza...

Which raises the ultimate, credibility undermining fact - that despite all these efforts of the Bush regime to jin up excuses for all this war frenzy, the National Defense Estimate re: Iraq has not been updated since the final year of the Last President of the US's administration.

581. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:09:56 PM

We've some GRAVE threat here....

can't have Congress debate it, can't have the UN debate it, gotta slap some lipstick on this pig and drop the bombs the day after the Election.

"oh no its not wag the dog its all about CONGRESS" the Bushies would have you believe. "Congress is in an election year, its a short session and we can't come back in Nov./Dec to decide all this, so just take our word for it."

Of course, when the Senate was considering GWI resolution in 1990 - also the second year of the Congressional session - Bob Dole objected to a fast track push before the election and the Democratic Leadership postponed action until after the election.

Grave danger? THAT was a grave danger to the people of Kuwait who were then being occupied.

Now what do the Kuwaitis think?

70% opposed

582. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:13:43 PM

Back from pigshit in search of prextext, back to Frank Rich:


Peggy Noonan, as faithful a George W. Bush partisan as there is, sharpened the question most pointedly on The Wall Street Journal editorial page on Wednesday, when she implored the president to give us facts instead of sermons in making his case. " `Saddam is evil' is not enough," she wrote. "A number of people are evil, and some are even our friends. `Saddam has weapons of mass destruction' is not enough. A number of countries do. What the people need now is hard data that demonstrate conclusively that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction which he is readying to use on the people of the U.S. or the people of the West." (And maybe even the non-West.)

What we have been getting instead is the one thing worse than no data ? false data. For months, administration officials have been trying to implicate Iraq in 9/11 with the story of an alleged April 2001 meeting in Prague between Mohamed Atta and a Saddam spy. But the C.I.A. can find no evidence of this, and the 21-page fact sheet the U.S. released with the president's speech mentions no Saddam-9/11 link at all.

583. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:13:54 PM

As for nuclear arms, last weekend in his appearance with Tony Blair the president referred to a 1998 International Atomic Energy Agency report that said Iraq was "six months away" from developing a nuclear weapon, adding "I don't know what more evidence we need." Plenty more, as it happens, because an agency spokesman says no such report exists. This is why those who most want to believe Mr. Bush, from a conservative G.O.P. Senate leader like Don Nickles to our allies, keep saying (in Mr. Nickles's words), "You're not giving us enough."

As budget deficits spiral into the foreseeable future, where will we get the tens of billions of dollars we need to support the post-Saddam Iraq that we will surely inherit? Is Saddam our new focus because he's the most catastrophic threat or is there another agenda that should be spelled out, whether it involves oil or unfinished Bush family business?

This is the candid talk we need to have. Maybe the administration can make the case that we can simultaneously whip Al Qaeda and Saddam, secure Afghanistan for keeps, tame the rest of the "axis of evil," guzzle gas in perpetuity and keep cutting taxes (for some of us). If that's so, and someone else's children will be marching on Baghdad, what patriot would not stand up and say "Let's roll"?

584. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:21:36 PM

I didn't hear a thing from jex, thoughtful, or anyone else about how we needed better reasons to bomb Iraq when Clinton did

No you didn't. What you "heard" (though I don't recall you being around at the time) was that there was a need for an effective UN weapons inspection effort; that Iraq had frustrated that work; that inspections were at that point useless, and that all sites identified should be destroyed.

You also "heard" my recommendation that Clinton immediately follow up with a diplomatic effort to establish the very coercive inspection regime urged just yesterday by James Baker.

You "heard" nothing about "regime change" "taking the Saud out of Arabia", "egypt the main objective", "$100,000,000,000 invasion price tag first year", "10-20 years at 75,000,000,000 per to maintain a satellite puppet that would the envy of Jospeph Stalin"; "let's launch the first pre-emptive war in US history" etc etc etc.

What did I "hear" from Republicans at the time, republicans like Zan who are now in full and frothing bloodlust?

Squat.

585. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 2:24:09 PM

579. jexster - 9/16/02 7:04:01 PM

340. jexster - 9/16/02 5:52:46 PM

Message # 335

Glad to see this isn't the only forum you pollute with your incoherent babble. Maybe you can now copy and paste these posts somewhere else and quote yourself quoting yourself quoting yourself ad infinitum.

Now what do the Kuwaitis think?

As was pointed out during your previous poll dance, you don't know: more than half of the Kuwait population is foreign (mostly from other Arab countries).

586. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 2:26:25 PM

Posts 582-583 are spam, being a repost of the same copywritten material that was both quoted and linked less than 10 posts earlier.

587. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:27:13 PM

Fuck you

588. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:28:37 PM

If you think for one minute that you are gonna get away with half-assed crap like your "thoughtful - NOT" post, you better get your head straight or I will fuck you up.

589. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 2:28:41 PM

You'd have to bring Frank Rich's dick with you.

590. theDiva - 9/16/2002 2:33:13 PM

I have a stupid question.

Is this the same Frank Rich who used to write film and theatre reviews for the Times, back when I was a mere slip of a girl?

591. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:34:46 PM

In addition to brains and balls, you also need a dictionnary:

spam -1. To send unsolicited e-mail to.
2. To send (a message) indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups.

You post, you solicit, I answer.

592. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 2:35:03 PM

That's him, Diva.

593. jexster - 9/16/2002 2:35:53 PM

I dunno Diva, you da Native New Yawka...

594. theDiva - 9/16/2002 2:41:05 PM

t'anks, alla youse.

595. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 2:41:16 PM

Basically what Rich does in the twice-posted column is create a false position for his opponent (Bush) so that he can then "demonstrate" how Bush fails to support this argument when Bush didn't make it to begin with.

596. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2002 2:45:19 PM

Jexster Message # 584 "You "heard" nothing about "regime change" [in 1998] . . ."

I thought so too, but I must have missed something. Per Condoleeza Rice and Tony Snow on "Fox News Sunday" yesterday:

"RICE: Regime change remains the objective of U.S. policy because, going all the way back to 1998, it was the collective wisdom of the then administration, the Clinton administration, and the Congress that this was not a regime that was ever going to satisfy the international community concerning its intentions. And that's why regime change became the goal of the American administration.

"SNOW: You have noted that Congress had a regime-change policy in 1998. In fact, Democrats authored it in response to a speech by President Clinton."

Is this - a "regime-change policy" - an accurate characterization of U.S. policy towards Iraq prior to the last six months or so? Must be. Heard it on Fox.

597. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 3:03:17 PM

Both you and Jasper are wrong. Ask Madeline Albright.

Q: Madame Secretary, I'm trying to understand the sort of larger strategy, because on the one hand we say we want Iraq to comply fully with all relevant UN resolutions, which would have to include UNSCOM, in order to get sanctions lifted. On the other hand, we say actually we want regime change, we want Saddam Hussein out -- that's the real goal -- and we don't believe UNSCOM will ever be allowed back in in a functioning way. Can you try to square the circle for us, please?

SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, I think there are kind of longer, medium and shorter term goals here. Obviously, the short-term goal at the moment through this military campaign is to degrade his ability to develop and deploy his weapons of mass destruction, to degrade his command and control of some of his security areas in order to degrade his ability to threaten his neighbors. That is the short-term goal of what we are doing....

Longer term, we have come to the determination that the Iraqi people would benefit if they had a government that really represented them. So we know that this is something that cannot be done overnight, and we are working with the various opposition groups on a longer range way of trying to help them help themselves to have a regime that represents them.


(The link is to a State Department Briefing from 12/17/98.)

598. Cellar Door - 9/16/2002 3:16:26 PM

Basically what Rich does in the twice-posted column is create a false position for his opponent (Bush) so that he can then "demonstrate" how Bush fails to support this argument when Bush didn't make it to begin with.

No that's what Sully does.

I say "Regime Change" begins at home.

599. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2002 3:21:49 PM

Edmund: Thanks for the link. Here's some more from Albright's 1998 press conference:

"Q: . . . is this really the aim of US policy -- just to replace him [Saddam], to oust him?

"SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, it's very hard to imagine anybody worse. I think that he is somebody who has no respect for his own people. There are not a lot of leaders in the world who have used chemical weapons against their own people. I will not make the obvious comparison. But I think that he is someone who has aggressive designs on his region and he is somebody who has total disregard for the will of the international community. So it's very hard to imagine somebody worse.

"I do think that there are -- there's been a lot of discussion about the Iraqi people and who cares about them and how they suffer. I think that in my conversations with mostly the Arab leaders -- but this is true of the other leaders I've spoken with -- there is genuine concern about the Iraqi people and that they have suffered under this cruel dictator for decades now, and that they really ought to have the possibility of a choice of their leadership. They clearly are better people, potentially, than the leader that they have now who is imposing his will on them."

While we desired the replacement of Saddam, it's therefore fair - well, fairly fair - to call our policy a "regime-change policy". But a military invasion and overthrow was not under consideration.

600. jexster - 9/16/2002 3:45:29 PM

For those of us for whom THOUGHT is still an option, and questions not heresy nor I say "Regime Change" begins at home.sedition nor treason...

Why now?

That's the question Democratic lawmakers and strategists are asking about President Bush's demand that Congress authorize war against Iraq before November's midterm elections.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22098-2002Sep15.html>Democrats Question Iraq Timing
Talk of War Distracts From Election Issues

The answer is self-evident, the question "why now" rhetorical.

601. jexster - 9/16/2002 3:49:18 PM

I say "Regime Change" begins at home

So did two teenagers I saw at the Saturday Rally & March.

The pair were sporting t shirts bearing line sketched portraits of the Moron and the Klown Krusty

Underneath, a red-white-blue banner...REGIME CHANGE NOW!

I asked "where'd youse get doze"

"Made 'em ourselves"

God fuckin Bless America...

Now shoot the bastards

602. jexster - 9/16/2002 3:55:05 PM

Basically what Rich does in the twice-posted column is create a false position for his opponent (Bush) so that he can then "demonstrate" how Bush fails to support this argument when Bush didn't make it to begin with.

Does nothing of the sort. That's a strawman fallacy about a strawman fallacy there Eddie...

Maybe we should post in full?

603. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 3:59:30 PM

While we desired the replacement of Saddam, it's therefore fair - well, fairly fair - to call our policy a "regime-change policy". But a military invasion and overthrow was not under consideration.

Well, Albright herself referred to the policy as "regime change" later on Meet the Press, so it's more than "fairly fair" to call a spade a spade.

Basically what you're reduced to is:

• It was okay for the Clinton administration to use military force to try to destroy Saddam's ability to procure and use WMD.
  
• It was okay for the Clinton administration to try to topple Hussein's regime.
  
• It's not okay for the Bush administration to use military force to destroy Saddam's ability to procure and use WMD and topple his regime.
  

604. jexster - 9/16/2002 4:00:37 PM

"the urge tp take preventive action- to do something, anything- can lead to ill-considered policies that lack any strategic sense" Stedman, S (1995) "Alchemy for a New World Order" Foreign Policy

605. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2002 4:05:04 PM

"It was okay for the Clinton administration to try to topple Hussein's regime."

No one is opposed to Bush or Clinton seeking to effect a new leadership in Iraq. But there's a difference between achieving that result by (1) diplomacy and sanctions or (2) by a reckless military invasion.

606. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 4:15:59 PM

diplomacy and sanctions

Operation Desert Fox was not diplomacy and sanctions.

reckless military invasion

The specifics of the conduct of the military campaign will, I suspect, be the provence of the generals. When he used force, Clinton tended to rely almost exclusively on air power. So if you're objecting to ground troops, your objection isn't one of policy but of tactics.

607. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 4:19:15 PM

Incidentally, I'll note that "achieving the result" of leadership change was not accomplished by the Clinton administration tactics, such as they were.

608. judithathome - 9/16/2002 4:20:15 PM

How about it being rather reckless to bankrupt this country to "save" Iraq? Where are the long range plans about setting up the new regime? Peacekeeping in the area?

How many people in Iraq are rioting to have us come in and save them?

609. Edmund Dantes - 9/16/2002 4:35:04 PM

Msg 608: Back to the scatter-brained laundry list, I see. Were those questions answered to your satisfaction when the Clinton administration used military force in either Iraq or Yugoslavia?

Who was more of a threat to the United States and its interests: Milosevic or Saddam? Who killed more people?

610. concerned - 9/16/2002 5:02:07 PM

Dems Fume as Al-Qaeda Cell Political Ties Revealed

Democratic Party insiders are said to be furious over published reports identifying the five al-Qaeda cell members arrested over the weekend in Lackawanna, New York, as registered Democrats.

"They include a telemarketer, a used car salesman, and a former high school soccer star who was named friendliest in his class. Four are married, and three have children. All are registered voters—Democrats," announced USA Today on Monday, picking up the News report.

And the Democrat Party will probably always provide a home for Islamic extremists. Leftist angst and PC multiculturalist attitudes virtually guarantee that Leftists will continue to be easy marks for these extreme theocrats, easily cozened into supporting most of the Islamist agenda, even as the Left continues its phony politicking about conservative Christians.

611. concerned - 9/16/2002 5:28:38 PM

Re. 605 -

Ohio -

Now how well did 'diplomacy and sanctions' work wrt Iraq? Giving UNSCOM inspectors permanent vacations was not the goal.

612. judithathome - 9/16/2002 5:30:41 PM

Oh good lord...you are spending far too much time alone, concerned. Yes, I got my Democratic Party form today and they provided a place to check off if you want your donation to go toward sponsoring a terrorist...even a place asking if you'd be willing to have one stay in your home while phoney paperwork and documents are being put together. Hell, I checked off that I'd take two...we have a large house and Keoni would rather cook for more people than just us.

613. concerned - 9/16/2002 5:33:38 PM

Zey haf vays of making you support their agenda, JAH.

614. concerned - 9/16/2002 5:49:54 PM

Leftists are what give Islamists hope, and even existence itself: witness the Godfather of Islamism - Jimmuh Cahtuh. I know what PE would say, but the preponderance of evidence, not to mention the fucking timelines say that it's this unknowing little twerp who started the ball rolling in both Iran and Afghanistan.

615. judithathome - 9/16/2002 6:06:13 PM

What? You mean..... it isn't ALL Clinton's fault!!????

616. Al D - 9/16/2002 6:17:26 PM

Sure, the Jexster Left will be demoralized and might not come out to vote. But unemployed psychotic homosexual shut-ins account for, what, at most 40% of the Democratic party
Would any like to guess the author of these words?

617. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/16/2002 6:21:20 PM

618. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:24:15 PM

witness the Godfather of Islamism - Jimmuh Cahtuh

I dunno what PE would say.

What would Jexster say about that little gem TD?

Twenty questions AL D?

619. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:25:23 PM

Now how well did 'diplomacy and sanctions' work wrt Iraq

Pretty damned well!

Or, do you know something that the Bushies aren't telling us?

620. judithathome - 9/16/2002 6:26:05 PM

Of course, it's you long lost pal Ace. Why else would post something like that, Al?

621. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:26:59 PM

Some Al Qaeda cell!

The Justice Department is now furioulsy backtracking on what appears for all the world like a Padilla/Lindh crock of Trashcroft crap.

The charge at most - summer camp

622. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:27:56 PM

" Were those questions answered to your satisfaction when the Clinton administration used military force in either Iraq or Yugoslavia"

Yes

623. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:41:17 PM

NO WAR ASSHOLES!

Iraq agrees to unconditional inspector return.

624. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:53:43 PM

WRT 622....

Subject to above qualification WRT Iraq bombing 1998 and indeed all bombing since 1991 and also a YES to War of teh Talibees (subject to fucked up follow up) and YES to GWI.

My primary, though not exclusive criteria was then and is now:
Avoiding war
2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.104

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."105

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

-the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

625. jexster - 9/16/2002 6:55:08 PM

try to wag the dog now....Saddam plays his game va banque and we got some french fried chicken hawks on our hands....watch the Weakly Standard for important revised instructions to the Moron King

626. jexster - 9/16/2002 10:10:54 PM

CNN BREAKING NEWS

"SADDAM CALLS BUSH BLUFF"

Eat shit you cracker corn pone chickenhawk bigots.

Don't send a Moron to do a Clinton job...

627. jexster - 9/16/2002 10:11:00 PM

CNN BREAKING NEWS

"SADDAM CALLS BUSH BLUFF"

Eat shit you cracker corn pone chickenhawk bigots.

Don't send a Moron to do a Clinton job...

628. Al D - 9/16/2002 10:58:42 PM

Oh yeah, Judith, old Ace from space. too obvious, huh.

jexster
You are really a pip. Under Clinton the inspectors get kicked out and he does nothing. One little speach from Bush and Saddam heaves to. Now I'm not saying Clinton is not one of the greatest Presidents who ever existed between 1992-2000, but he's no GWB. I know GW, he's a friend of my, and Clinton is no GW

629. robertjayb - 9/16/2002 11:57:02 PM

Krugman tags Cheney, White in corporate scandals...

When one top executive learned of millions in further losses, his e-mailed response summed up the whole strategy: "Close a bigger deal. Hide the loss before the 1Q."

The strategy worked. Enron collapsed, but not before insiders made off with nearly $1 billion. The sender of that blunt e-mail sold $12 million in stocks just before they became worthless. And now he's secretary of the Army.

......................

........What kind of administration would keep such a man in office?

A story in last week's Times may shed light on that question. It concerned another company that sold a division, then declared that its employees had "resigned," allowing it to confiscate their pensions. Yet this company did exactly the opposite when its former C.E.O. resigned, changing the terms of his contract so that he could claim full retirement benefits; the company took an $8.5 million charge against earnings to reflect the cost of its parting gift to this one individual. Only the little people get shafted.

The other company is named Halliburton. The object of its generosity was Dick Cheney.

630. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2002 6:07:07 AM

Iraq's offer to permit UN inspections is good news. While it remains to be seen how meaningful the inspections will be, Bush's war talk is achieving positive results.

I hope that the statements of displeasure from the White House are only made to keep the pressure on, and not what the administration actually believes. ("The crafty bastard thinks he'll avoid an invasion by AGREEING TO OUR DEMANDS? We're not falling for that!")

631. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2002 6:12:19 AM

"Yes, I got my Democratic Party form today and they provided a place to check off if you want your donation to go toward sponsoring a terrorist..."

Judith! Ssh!! That's an ecret-say.

632. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2002 6:32:19 AM

Saddam's (apparent) acquiescence to UN inspections may throw a wrench in Republican plans to force a Congressional vote on attacking Iraq just before the election and impugning the patriotism of Democrats who vote against it. This is an application of the tried-and-true Republican strategy of proposing something irresponsible but politically popular (e.g., tax cuts) and beating up Democrats for doing the responsible thing and blocking it. But the strategy only works if the measure proposed is politically popular, and cooperation by Saddam will further diminish public support for an unnecessary war against Iraq.

633. joezan - 9/17/2002 7:57:00 AM

Good ol' Ohio - always finds the silver lining.

634. judithathome - 9/17/2002 8:22:16 AM

No, just a realist who knows what's happened before and no doubt will happen again.

635. jexster - 9/17/2002 10:17:58 AM

Pigshit: "Where's my next pretext?"

Dick Cheney vehemently denies that talk of war, just weeks before the midterm elections, is designed to divert attention from other matters. But in that case he won't object if I point out that the tide of corporate scandal is still rising, and lapping ever closer to his feet.

An article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal confirmed what some of us have long argued: market manipulation by energy companies — probably the same companies that wrote Mr. Cheney's energy plan, though he has defied a court order to release task force records — played a key role in California's electricity crisis. And new evidence indicates that Mr. Cheney's handpicked Army secretary was a corporate evildoer.

Cronies in Arms

636. jexster - 9/17/2002 10:27:22 AM

ALD...georgie don't think he won...it was a set up!

1) Bush never wanted to go to the UN. (Read Cheney's speech and you needn't bother with the 1001 similar statements prior to it by the ChickenHawk wing)

2) When leaks via the NyT, the Pentagon (inspired by the Evil PantyWaist Person) exposed what the REAL plan was, and Poppy's Boys gave Georgie a public spanking, he had no choice

3) Once the Boy Blunder got there, EVERYBODY, including the Ay-rabs who know what the fuck is what the fuck (and the faggot French), said "oh Georgie you are so magnificent. What a great speech. Protecting the dignity of the UN, my what an epiphany....come to us walk over here...

4) But Georgie said "what about the Persian rug there? want me to cross that? I don't believe Saddam will EVER AGREE TO WEAPONS INSPECTORS" SAID THAT SATURDAY!

5) "Oh no, nice rug...come on you are our Leader"

6) ZIP ZAP there goes the rug

Now AL if you listen to what the WH is now saying (and what the Weakly Standard will soon be saying), "it wasn't about WMD its about all those other resoultions"

Well fuck me huh.

I thought all this was about the grave risks to the US from WMD.

637. jexster - 9/17/2002 10:57:59 AM

Earth to Al D...come in AlD

"This is not a matter of inspections," the White House said in a statement.

638. jexster - 9/17/2002 11:02:19 AM

Now ask yourselves "what might the White Palace have said if they REALLY were serious about inspections but doubted Sad - am?"

How bout

"We welcome the overwhelming response of our Arab and Euro friends in helping to restore the integrity of the UN and bring an end to the WMD threat in EyeRak. Given his track record however, we must insist on coercive inspections as James Baker recommended"

And go on in private to detail coercive inspection program along the lines that the Carnegie Endowment suggests.

That's if they REALLY were concerned about WMD which, as I have said repeatedly, is not the case at all....

639. jexster - 9/17/2002 11:09:38 AM

From the article Krugman mentions in his Cronies in Arms..

Support for the war from the leaders of a traditionally Democratic bloc creates a potentially perilous situation for any Democrat tempted to oppose the administration's Iraq plans. [A 1996 paper for the Israeli right wing by a group including Richard Perle argued] that Israel should scrap the peace process, work to subdue its neighbors by force, and overthrow the Iraqi government in order to reshape the region's dynamics. [This] almost guarantees broad Jewish support for Bush's military initiatives... It's crucial to note that there is principled Jewish support of a war with Iraq that's based on more than just slavish devotion to the Likud line. American Jews have been paying close attention to Saddam Hussein's atrocities for a long time, and thus some liberal Jews see the conflict in terms starkly different from their gentile brethren, many of whom have just tuned in to the story." But don't forget that Reagan-Bush armed and financed Hussein's military.

640. jexster - 9/17/2002 11:11:59 AM

How bout a little honesty from the cum stained dress crowd?

641. jexster - 9/17/2002 11:14:49 AM

What's wrong cat got your tongues?

OK.

642. jexster - 9/17/2002 11:17:30 AM

And Eddy boy by the by when you quote me Message # 598, quote me huh and not that little man in your head.


"regime change" by internal means has been US policy since well before 1998, the year in which you apparently learned to read

643. jexster - 9/17/2002 12:36:00 PM

A CRACK HOUSE DIVIDED - By Arianna Huffington

I feel nothing but sympathy and concern for Noelle Bush. Her latest stumble on the rocky road to recovery -- being caught with crack cocaine at a drug rehab center -- shows that she is in desperate need of help. As a parent, I can also easily empathize with the anguish Noelle's father, Florida Governor Jeb Bush, must be experiencing. And I'm in total agreement with his insistence that his daughter's substance abuse problem is "a private issue."

But when I think about the heartless stance the Governor has
taken toward the drug problems of those less-fortunate and
well-connected than his daughter, my empathy turns to outrage.

While Noelle has been given every break in the book -- and then some -- her father has made it harder for others in her position to get the help they need by cutting the budgets of drug treatment and drug court programs in his state. He has also actively opposed a proposed ballot initiative that would send an estimated 10,000 non-violent drug offenders into treatment instead of jail. I guess what's good for the goose, gets the gander locked away.


What's Arianna all upset about anyway?

Jeb is a FUCKING BUSH....what did she expect but talk bluff bluster and bullshit.

644. jexster - 9/17/2002 1:02:00 PM

Notice carefully the following graph...

The market went up sharply on hopes peace until the Bloody Boy Blunder opened his vile mouth...

Al, that's a TURNIP truck, not a golf cart...

645. jexster - 9/17/2002 1:02:18 PM

Sell short.

646. Cellar Door - 9/17/2002 1:38:22 PM

It's a "Lifestyle" Issue.

647. Al D - 9/17/2002 2:56:57 PM

jexster
Could you please explain to me why you were hot to see Milosovist (sp.?) go and so hot to see Saddam stay?

648. jexster - 9/17/2002 3:19:05 PM

ONE SLIGHT CORRECTION - I am not HOT to see Saddam stay AL.

I am HOT to see bullshit exposed and our country not engage in pre-emptive murder of thousands for a crock of crap.

Now to compare as you asked..

Because there were 500,000 people living in shit on a plain in Macedonia facing certain death...sent there to die by Slobo and only NATO could do anything to stop it.

To put it in the concrete...comparatively...and leaving aside (because I have to go to Econ class) my "realist" based prudential particulars (suffice it to say that I believe GWB is a boob who is leading his country into a war for his own psychotic obsessions which will have DISATROUS implications for the US immediately and the world for years to come)

My primary reasons, compared follow

649. jexster - 9/17/2002 3:36:17 PM

Very briefly as I don't want to lose my prized status as Prof Osman's pet won by hard brown nosing...

Avoiding war
2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.[104]

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.


2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

Kosovo - the grave damage was ongoing and headed for disaster..

Iraq - DO I REALLY HAVE TO PARTICULARIZE THE OBVIOUS?


- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

Kosovo - We went thru butchery in Sarajevo, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia whilst the EU held their dicks in their hands ....we waited too long

Iraq- Who the fuck around here is dumb enough to argue this point...check the damned papers any day since Bush hatched this pile of shit

There is only one grave threat to world peace around....and its not Sad-am sad to say.

650. jexster - 9/17/2002 3:37:37 PM

- there must be serious prospects of success;

Kosovo - touch and go but the proof was in the outcome, thank God and NO REALISTIC PROSPECT OF POST WAR DISASTER

IRAQ - refer you to R. Kagan, Weekly Standard...the only authority I need..."we're talking 100,000 troops 20 years" to keep our puppet in power..THAT IS NOT SUCCESS...that is from a lunatic chickenhawk.

Kosovo - We went thru butchery in Sarajevo, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia whilst the EU held their dicks in their hands ....we waited too long

Iraq- Who the fuck around here is fool enough to argue this point...check the damned papers any day since Bush hatched this pile of shit

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

should be obvious...


I could take up at least 10 messages from a moral perspective, at least another dozen from a strategic geopolitical and military one but you get the pic..and I got the Econ class

651. jexster - 9/17/2002 9:41:28 PM

CBS News Reports that nearly every one of the 32 blackouts that California suffered last year were the direct result of market manipulations by Bush cronies

Wag the dog.

652. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2002 11:32:56 PM

Joezan, Message # 633: "Good ol' Ohio - always finds the silver lining."

Joe's referring to my observation in Message # 632 that the effect of Sadaam Hussein's offer to permit U.N. inspectors, a positive development that lessens at least somewhat the likelihood of war, may thwart Republican political plans to force Democrats into a politically unpopular vote against attacking the evil Saddam.

But, Joe, that's the wrong metaphor. A "silver lining" is a small positive that accompanies a large negative (the "dark cloud"). But I think BOTH things - war hopefully averted, Republican plans foiled - are GOOD things. So wouldn't something like "icing on the cake" be a more apt metaphor?

And, Joe, why do you think that a development that makes a war LESS likely, even by a little bit, is a "dark cloud"?

653. judithathome - 9/17/2002 11:45:30 PM

Because Joezan is an armchair warrior.

654. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2002 11:46:57 PM

He puts the "arms" in "armchair."

655. judithathome - 9/17/2002 11:48:09 PM

;-)

656. joezan - 9/18/2002 7:58:26 AM

Ohio:

But the strategy only works if the measure proposed is politically popular, and cooperation by Saddam will further diminish public support for an unnecessary war against Iraq.

Diminish this:

PRINCETON, NJ -- The American public is strongly behind President George W. Bush's efforts to push the United Nations into taking a more forceful position against Iraq and its leader, Saddam Hussein. A just-completed CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll shows that Americans overwhelmingly want the U.N. to take a tougher stance against Iraq, to pass a resolution demanding compliance with weapons inspections efforts, and to authorize military action if Iraq does not comply. More than seven in 10 Americans feel that Saddam Hussein will use weapons of mass destruction against the United States if military action is not taken. President Bush's job approval rating is now at 70%, marking the first time since late July that it has been at that level or higher.

3. When given an explicit choice between taking military action and engaging in further diplomatic action if Iraq fails to meet such a deadline, a majority of the American public agrees with the administration position that military action would be necessary...

...And it appears that the president's strategy on the Iraqi situation -- so far -- has resonated with the American people, whose approval for the way Bush has handled his job has gone up, not down, over the last week.

Judith:

ARF,ARF!

657. judithathome - 9/18/2002 8:38:17 AM

Joezan, I want to talk to you after the country has been at war for a year watching body bags come home week after week and after your president has gone on TV and told the American public the country is going to have to bite the bullet because oil and gas prices have shot up to $4 a gallon and after he tells us that unfortunately, most programs they've come to depend on will have to be dropped because there just is no money for them, since we are at war and the war effort will have to come first because we have to stop Saddam, who, as we all know, is one tricky dude and still at large. I want to see his approval ratings then...

And I certainly hope you aren't ARF ARFing at me because you are inferring I am a bitch.

658. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/18/2002 9:06:45 AM

659. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/18/2002 9:26:14 AM

joeyz--the 21st hijacker?

660. joezan - 9/18/2002 9:29:44 AM

Yep - me and 70% of the rest of America, Wizzzzzzzzz.

661. thoughtful - 9/18/2002 9:37:48 AM

As usual, excellent piece by Tom Friedman in today's ny times:

That's where I think most Americans are at. Deep down they believe that Saddam is "deterrable." That is, he does not threaten the U.S. and he never has, because he has been deterred the way Russia, China and North Korea have been. He knows that if he even hints at threatening us, we will destroy him. Saddam has always been homicidal, not suicidal. Indeed, he has spent a lifetime perfecting the art of survival — because he loves life more than he hates us.

No, what worries Americans are not the deterrables like Saddam. What worries them are the "undeterrables" — the kind of young Arab-Muslim men who hit us on 9/11, and are still lurking. Americans would pay virtually any price to eliminate the threat from the undeterrables — the terrorists who hate us more than they love their own lives, and therefore cannot be deterred.

662. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/18/2002 10:09:01 AM

Yep - me and 70% of the rest of America, Wizzzzzzzzz.

Ignorant laziness and misery seek the same level of moral gravity.

War with Iraq won't do anything with regard to the kind of terrorism of 9/11— but it will appease the same kind of foolish hatreds that caused it and are fueling your ridiculous illogic. Wake up, joe and read thoughtful's link.

663. joezan - 9/18/2002 10:21:51 AM

Well heavens no, judy - would I ever infer such a thing?

It has everything to do with breed - and nothing to do with gender, if you get my drift...

Think Pomeranian.

Think Chihuahua.

664. glendajean - 9/18/2002 10:36:08 AM

I've been uneasy about going to war with Iraq on our own. I wanted Congress and the public to debate it. That has begun. I wanted us to make a case to the world. Bush began that quite well at the UN.

I think that as a democracy we have to be engaged in these issues. And as a Democrat, I think the party should deal with the issue and provide leadership when necessary and oppostion/questions when necessary. Lately, the party has been AWOL, scared about mid-term elections.

While I understand how close the election is, the issues of our war on terrorism and Iraq must be addressed. That's what leaders do. And down the road, I think they will be honored for doing what is right.

Like everybody else, I would be surprised if Sadaam actually lets the inspectors in, but the question will be settled soon and I think Bush is right to call it.

665. judithathome - 9/18/2002 10:55:13 AM

It has everything to do with breed - and nothing to do with gender, if you get my drift...

Then you should've used lower case "arfs"...

;-)

666. jexster - 9/18/2002 11:31:31 AM

In March 1999, when the United States and its NATO allies were conducting a bombing campaign aimed at halting Slobodan Milosevic's brutal ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska wrote an op-ed article in The Post, arguing that "we must be prepared to do what is necessary to achieve our objectives and ensure victory, including the option of ground troops."

"The most likely path to peace," he wrote, "is in convincing Milosevic of our intention to prevail. If we show weakness or fail, then our adversaries around the world -- Iraq, North Korea, terrorist groups -- will challenge us in other areas at other times."

Those are not the words of a man who rejects or fears the use of military power. And they are not out of character for a man who was badly wounded in Vietnam while trying to rescue his brother and fellow soldier in a Viet Cong ambush.

That is one reason why the pointed questions Hagel has been asking for weeks about the Bush administration's evident eagerness to invade Iraq may carry more weight with colleagues of both parties and the public than most of the skeptical muttering one hears.

The point of his insistent questioning is that the process of making the Iraq decision must look beyond the history of defiance and abuse by the Baghdad regime and provide better answers than those that sent Hagel and his friends to Vietnam.

The Hagel Doctrine

667. jexster - 9/18/2002 2:25:18 PM

Probe Debunks Need for Blackouts
Energy: A year in the making, PUC report says five plant owners had the capacity to produce enough power



Power to Spare

Well blow me - right again.

668. jexster - 9/18/2002 8:34:05 PM

9-1-1 Cover Up

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Congressional investigators are not getting the cooperation they need from the Bush administration on information held by the U.S. intelligence community before the Sept. 11 attacks, a ranking Republican senator said on Wednesday.

U.S. House of Representatives and Senate intelligence committees kick off hearings on Wednesday on U.S. information-gathering activities before last year's deadly attacks on America.

669. jexster - 9/19/2002 10:50:00 AM

Lawmakers from both parties yesterday protested the Bush administration's lack of cooperation in the congressional inquiry into Sept. 11 intelligence failures and threatened to renew efforts to establish an independent commission.

The White House reacted to the complaints from members of the House and Senate intelligence committees by softening its objection to an independent commission

911 Coverup

670. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/19/2002 1:06:03 PM

Republican Playgirl's The Men Of Enron issue.

671. jexster - 9/19/2002 3:46:52 PM

672. jexster - 9/19/2002 3:47:09 PM

673. Edmund Dantes - 9/19/2002 5:52:20 PM

I want to talk to you after the country has been at war for a year watching body bags come home week after week and after your president has gone on TV and told the American public the country is going to have to bite the bullet because oil and gas prices have shot up to $4 a gallon....I want to see his approval ratings then...

Nice thing to want, but typical of the losers around here who'd prefer seeing American body bags to American success as long as it knocks a few points off the President's approval rating.

you are inferring I am a bitch

The correct word is "imply," crawfish.

674. OhioSTOPAS - 9/19/2002 6:07:43 PM

". . . losers around here who'd prefer seeing American body bags to American success . . ."

Whom exactly are you accusing of DESIRING AMERICAN DEATHS??

675. judithathome - 9/19/2002 6:20:49 PM

Thanks so much for your interest in my grammar. However, I think your time can be better spent impressing the boys with your insights.

I think it's fairly stupid of you to leap to the assumption that I want to see American body bags coming back from a war I don't support just because I don't support it. I don't give a shit what Bush's approval rating is, frankly...it's you and Joezan and concerned who seem to think his 70% rating is such a big deal. I'm sure it will stay at 70% and probably go higher throughout the rest of this term and far into the next 4 year term he serves. (It's true we get the government we deserve.)

I just hope you can live with yourselves when it starts to get really nasty. I guess you don't know any parents who lost children in the Viet Nam war or the Gulf War, do you? Ask them how much they approve of any president who sends some one else's child off to war. It's safe for all of you guys because you're probably too old but Joezan may get a chance to sacrifice a child to the war...it could last long enough for his daughters to grow up and be sent. And they may not have a choice because after all the gung ho guys go and after it all starts to look like something more serious than a George Clooney movie, the government may have to reinstate the draft.

So go ahead and enjoy you war...the fact you can live with yourself afterward is enough to tell me all about you.

676. judithathome - 9/19/2002 6:22:40 PM

Whom exactly are you accusing of DESIRING AMERICAN DEATHS??

He's saying you and me and anyone who thinks the war is a mistake. You know...US, the losers.

677. Cellar Door - 9/19/2002 6:34:53 PM

"I think it's fairly stupid of you to leap to the assumption that I want to see American body bags coming back from a war "

Right. That would be me.

I've got that ol' 60's Nostalgia comin' over me real bad.

And you know, Judith, nothing makes a Republican happier than seeing one of their own children come home in a box.

They just LOVE it.

Don't stand in their way.

Moreover I think age and physical restrictions should be lowered so that our own connie, J.J., Edmund et. al. can participate in the coming war to the full.

You haven't lived -- until you've died a bloody, meaningless death.

678. betty - 9/19/2002 7:58:33 PM

Once again the ruling class want to put my working class brothers and sisters asses on the line for their own self-interest. isn't that swell. I think it's really neat the way they exploit our poverty and desire for education, then deny it to us after we've fulfilled our obligations to them. I think it's great the way they offer us an out from addiction, addictions they've created and encouraged, if we'll just put our bodies in between them and their enemies. I think it's wonderful how senators and the wealthy can send their kids to college for four years, for eight years, for an hundred to keep their own blood from being shed. They create an inequitable system, telling us it's our fault we're at the bottom (just have a better attitude, right Joe?) and then toss us a few crumbs if we'll just put our lives, our youth, our laughter on the line for them.

And they learned, they learned from Vietnam, they learned that working class people are getting hip to their exploitation of us and so THEY, the biggest, most sinister they that can be mustered, they start putting spin on it. It's always a new Hitler isn't it? Iraq, Kosovo, it seems like every country that americans can't locate on a map has got some Hitler wanna-be in power. and it's just a coincidence that these countries are all oil rich, isn't it?

You will not take my brothers and my cousins and my friends for your fucking oil. You will walk. You will use candles. you will buy no more plastic shit. You can fight your own goddamn war, you can sacrifice your own lives, you can die for your fucking standard of living, but I'm not letting the people I love, the people who have always saved your pampered, privileged asses from suffering the consequences of your own arrogant policies.

679. betty - 9/19/2002 7:58:43 PM

I do want to see body bags. Every single one of our senators (save saint Russ), every single Bush I&II cabinet member, Concerned, JJ, Edmund, Joe and anyone else who wants to sound the rally cry. Put your body where you are asking my brother's to go and then you will be lined up, toe tagged and your mother or your lover will cry for weeks and years and lifetimes but we will be left to dance.

If you need to draft people, it's not a war worth fighting. Conscription is inherently undemocratic and you will die for your own damn sins, I'm not gonna let my people be your saviour again.

680. robertjayb - 9/19/2002 8:19:36 PM

Oldie:

Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

...Country Joe and the Fish.

681. joezan - 9/19/2002 9:02:26 PM

Kosovo has oil?

682. betty - 9/19/2002 9:22:54 PM

that area as is key in a pipeline (does this sound familiar) for Baltic Oil.

Even the mainstream newspapers were reporting this, you should probably get your head out of the propaganda machine's ass.

683. Edmund Dantes - 9/19/2002 9:29:26 PM

Whom exactly are you accusing of DESIRING AMERICAN DEATHS??

You can read what Judy said and judge for yourself what she meant. Psycho Sako has been pretty direct about it. Even Von Kreedon said he'd prefer more American soldiers would die to prevent civilian casualties (can't remember if he posted that here or at the Perfect World, but he said it flat out).

Judy's words: "I want to talk to you after the country has been at war for a year watching body bags come home week after week..."

I'm pretty sure the following posters wouldn't mind seeing the U.S. lose or get mauled in a war, especially if it hurt George W. Bush's reelection chances: Sakonige, Ivan Osokin, Betty, Cellar Door, Jexster, and Wiz.

And I don't think Judy wants a war with Iraq to be a quick, glorious American triumph either--not if George W. Bush will be leading the parade.

684. Edmund Dantes - 9/19/2002 9:33:06 PM

Post 678: It's a volunteer army, girlie, and most of the people in it are much more gungho about kicking Saddam's ass than you have any idea.

Did you fall asleep in Austin Powers' time capsule or what?

Flower power!

685. Edmund Dantes - 9/19/2002 9:35:52 PM

. I don't give a shit what Bush's approval rating is, frankly.

Yeah, you don't give a fig what we post either. You sure spend a helluva lot of time concerning yourself with stuff you don't care about.

If I had a dime for every bitch and moan you've made about Bush, I wouldn't have to eat Joezan's crappy office leftovers.

686. Wombat - 9/19/2002 9:51:53 PM

Betty:

Baltic=North (Sweden, Denmark, etc.)

687. joezan - 9/19/2002 9:55:48 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

688. joezan - 9/19/2002 10:00:35 PM

Oh man - that's right...the Baltic Pipeline. How could I forget? All through the war in the Baltics, all those brave Balticese peasants camped out along the strategic Baltic pipeline, guarding the very life's blood of their quaint little Baltic nation against the imperialist American onslaught.

Thanks for reminding me, betty.

689. betty - 9/19/2002 10:03:00 PM

Edmund Dantes,

you are a fucking twit. First of all, if they re-instate the draft it is not voluntary. Well uh, duh!

Second there are a number of economic and social factors which makes joining the armed services much less of a voluntary decision for poor and working class people than you middle-aged middle-class war mongers would ever understand. and you know what, there are a lot of yahoo working class boys who don't think about this stuff, who believe that they are doing something for the common good of their country, my dad was one of them.

He volunteered for the army when the draft was in Full force for vietnam. He volunteered for his country...for what was right. He was given a cushy administrative job. He saw documents you and I still don't have access to. And you know what...he doesn't trust his government one bit. he wised up to it. He knows the score. Don't think we don't fucking know what you dirt bags are about. You pansy assed pussies who are too weak and frail to fight your own fights.

and just for the record, I'm no peacenik. I'm an anarchist and if the time comes I won't stop for a second to think about the karmic damage I'll incur for stomping on your head.

690. betty - 9/19/2002 10:09:52 PM

Sorry, that's what I get for posting off the top of my head without proofreading.

What I meant to say was "for Mediterranean Oil"...or was it Marvin's Gardens?

691. joezan - 9/19/2002 10:15:56 PM

Yeah - and boy-howdy! - ain't that Mediterranean oil money flowing like water straight to GWB's pockets now, or what?

...oh --- wait.

That was Bill Clinton that started that war. Hey - he's doing pretty well these days, huh?

There's your proof right there, daggummit!

692. jexster - 9/19/2002 10:30:10 PM

"On the day a joint House and Senate intelligence committee released a staff report on the Sept. 11 failures and began to hold hearings, those involved in the congressional investigation said they had been thwarted by the administration's reluctance to share information about what the White House knew before last year's terrorist attacks. 'Are we getting the cooperation we need? Absolutely not,' Sen. Richard C. Shelby (Ala.), the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence committee, said in a joint appearance with Chairman Bob Graham (D-Fla.) on NBC's 'Today' show. Graham added: 'What we're trying to do is to get people who had hands on these issues... And what we're being told is, no, they don't want to make those kind of witnesses available.' Both Graham and Shelby yesterday endorsed the idea of independent panels.'"


What is Bush Hiding?

693. jexster - 9/19/2002 10:30:37 PM

oooo 230 point drop


Sell short folks

694. joezan - 9/19/2002 10:33:36 PM

The Twin Towers Flip Off - popular post-9-11 geeting in some Muslim communities.

695. judithathome - 9/19/2002 10:55:54 PM

And I don't think Judy wants a war with Iraq to be a quick, glorious American triumph either--not if George W. Bush will be leading the parade.

I don't want a war with Iraq at all...so shoot me, why don't you? I have never made any bones about thinking Bush is an asshole just as I'm sure you make no bones about thinking that of Gore, Clinton, and any other Democrat. You're perfectly within your rights to think that and to express it. It's no skin off my nose at all.

I guess you don't like me because I don't think as you do...that is just fine with me. But if you don't want to read the stuff I post, then get your ass back over to the Perfect World because I'm not going to stop and you seem to be unable to look away. Show some friggin' restraint.

696. Edmund Dantes - 9/19/2002 11:13:21 PM

First of all, if they re-instate the draft it is not voluntary.

Really?

Second there are a number of economic and social factors which makes joining the armed services much less of a voluntary decision for poor and working class people than you middle-aged middle-class war mongers would ever understand....

You know nothing about my age or class. But then, knowing nothing about a subject hasn't stopped you from talking about it yet.

there are a lot of yahoo working class boys who don't think about this stuff

Those in the military know a bit more about being in the military than a ditzy part-time secretary trolling through cyber space with her leftist hubbie for other swingers.

697. Edmund Dantes - 9/19/2002 11:17:41 PM

so shoot me, why don't you?

Judy, calm yourself. It's the other posters who are listing people they want to see in body bags--not me.

698. Cellar Door - 9/19/2002 11:38:04 PM

Is the Count of Monte Crisco planning to enlist?

699. judithathome - 9/19/2002 11:38:10 PM

Edmund, I don't know your age or background but I know body bags are not a good thing to watch on the news every night like I did during Viet Nam. I also know my husband served there and he's not in favor of seeing others go through what he went through, either.

700. Cellar Door - 9/19/2002 11:38:32 PM

How about you, joe?

701. judithathome - 9/19/2002 11:40:40 PM

Oh Cellar, don't you know? Joe doesn't feel he needs to serve; he'll be supportive from home just as his heros did in Veit Nam, the ones planning this thing.

702. Cellar Door - 9/19/2002 11:42:57 PM

In other words none of our gung ho Fraysters have as much guts as Martha Raye.

703. judithathome - 9/19/2002 11:59:35 PM

Appears to be the case.

704. Al D - 9/20/2002 12:48:49 AM

I am over 70, and I would go to Iraq in a New York minute. In fact I would lead a contiongent of 50,000 oldsters and we would march into Bagdad and bore them to death with tales of how bad things were when we were young and how we had to walk through the snow to get to school and we couldn't afford shoes. You know the story, you've heard it or you lost your parents at an early age.

Now I want you all to calm down and let judith spout her nonsense. Just because she's a Liberal doesn't make her a bad person.

the Wiz, jexster, OhioStopas, cellar...now that's a real sorry group for you.

705. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 8:42:16 AM

Whether or not any poster here enlists or is enlisted is irrelevant to the point of whether the war is necessary.

Cellar Door says he wants to see American body bags coming back from a war. He is not volunteering himself to put down his keyboard, vacate his screening seat, and go do the zipping.

Betty Blue wants to see senators and other government officials killed. She's not yet (one assumes) hurried down to the local gunshop and purchased a pistol with her latest welfare check.

Those advocating a military response to Saddam's intransigience are asking that a professional, all-volunteer force be called upon to do its job, much as one would send a fire department into a burning building or police into a criminal hideout.

In contrast, those who wish to let Saddam be are volunteering all of us for a future of biological, chemical, and nuclear blackmail and destruction.

706. betty - 9/20/2002 9:32:43 AM

re 691--

Joe, yer a fucking idiot, it was a joke. Mediterranean and Baltic are the cheapest properties in Monopoly, I through in the Marvin's Gardens to make sure idiots like you got it...obviously you are too stupid even with the idiot proofing.

707. joezan - 9/20/2002 9:45:28 AM

The fact remains, betty: you made up a whole bunch of hooey about the US fighting for oil in a place that has never been known for its oil - even inventing some nonsense about news stories in the mainstream media.

Admit it - you have no idea what that war was about, nor why we, the US, were there to begin with, do you?

All you know is to repeat ignorant, atrociously ill-informed, hilariously derivative, monumentally irrelevant agitprop.

708. judithathome - 9/20/2002 10:06:15 AM

Edmund, why weren't you calling for a move against Iraq for the past 3 years...or the past 10? He's been a threat all that time as have the rest of the Axis of Evil. We are still under threat by Al Qeada. We live every day under threat from something.

709. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 10:27:53 AM

Judy, remember, you don't care what I post. You shouldn't care what I've been doing for the past three years either.

Until December 1998 there was a modicum of inspections and the threat of military action if those inspections didn't occur. In December 1998, Bill Clinton used four days of military force supposedly to eliminate much of Saddam's WMD capabilities--or so we were told. Between December 1998 and January 2001, a Democratic president was commander and chief, so the question of action against Iraq was moot (other than the weekly air engagements). No one in power was making a strong case for more force against Iraq (too busy shooting cruise missiles into Sudanese pharmaceutical plants and bombing the shit out of Milosevic's TV towers).

The Clinton administration advocated regime change, but failed to use successful tactics in pursuit of that goal. Nevertheless, I would have supported regime change then as I do now.

Unlike Jasper and perhaps others here, I don't post just to see my name over and over on the screen. As long as Bill Clinton was in office, there was no reason no hope for greater pressure on Saddam from above and, prior to 9/11, little reason to hope that without such a warning of things to come popular support would develop from below.

710. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 10:29:03 AM

It would be nice if the Cellar Doors, Bettys, Judys, and Wizzos of the world would spend less time worrying about Joezan and me and actually spend some time becoming informed about the topic.

711. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 10:40:30 AM

"Cellar Door says he wants to see American body bags coming back from a war. He is not volunteering himself to put down his keyboard, vacate his screening seat, and go do the zipping."

No can do, Count. I'm (how shall I put this?) GAY you know. Therefore I'm far too immoral to be allowed to bomb Iraqi peasants.

"The fact remains, betty: you made up a whole bunch of hooey about the US fighting for oil in a place that has never been known for its oil - even inventing some nonsense about news stories in the mainstream media."

Oh please!

There's just nothing to say to people like you, joe. You believe whatyou want to believe -- ie. what Daddy Bush and his criminal cartel tell you to believe.

712. judithathome - 9/20/2002 10:44:01 AM

Judy, remember, you don't care what I post. You shouldn't care what I've been doing for the past three years either.

Thanks for reminding me.

713. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 10:48:42 AM

You're welcome, Punchy.

714. joezan - 9/20/2002 11:00:52 AM

...ie. what Daddy Bush and his criminal cartel tell you to believe.

Uh...you too?

For pete's sake, cellar - at least Betty can claim she was only a teen at the time. What excuse do you have? Is this some new Karmic Theory, whereby GHWB's bad vibes permeate the Oval Office, just waiting to invade the thought processes of the next unsuspecting POTUS, who then looks around for the next country to invade?

715. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/20/2002 11:03:09 AM

". . . Wizzos of the world would spend less time worrying about Joezan and me"


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAA! I, for one, have spent NO TIME whatsoever in that regard, so go jerkoff to a Hustler or a ponzy scheme, PoopyPants!

716. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 11:21:26 AM

have spent NO TIME whatsoever in that regard, so go jerkoff to a Hustler or a ponzy scheme

Better yet, why don't you use your "incredible" Photoshop "wizardry" to put this face on last month's Hustler centerfold and I'll jerkoff all over your "art"work?

717. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/20/2002 11:55:04 AM

Below the surface Eddie, you're an unimaginative dullard with no depth and a fixation for domination. I can understand your frustrations, but makes me wonder if you have any rape charges in your past . . . or future.

718. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 12:19:08 PM

Marching through the wilderness
Crying out for tenderness
They call me Mr. Miserable
But ev'rything is wonderful....

A lot of psychoanalysis bullshit there, Wizzo, from somebody who claims not to have spent a moment thinking (or praying) about me.

Don't know which you suck the worst at: 1) political insight; 2) psychology; 3) aesthetic sense and tase.

719. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 12:20:02 PM

By way of an answer to your rhetorical question, joe -- Take it away, Eric Alterman!

720. joezan - 9/20/2002 12:24:08 PM

Cellar, you dunce - the discussion was about Clinton's Kosovo Adventure.

Remember that?

721. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 12:26:52 PM

New American National Security Strategy

Requires Acrobat Reader

Comments--or should WizardOfWitlessness continue his Dr. Malfi imitation, right down to the hip-hugging skirt?

722. RickNelson - 9/20/2002 12:27:49 PM

There ain't no regard for pol-eeee-tics in this here thread. Seems tuh me, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh!

723. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/20/2002 12:30:57 PM

Insightful observation is quick and easy with someone as shallow as you, Niner—it takes no deep pondering.

724. RickNelson - 9/20/2002 12:31:51 PM

Question to anyone, don't respond if you don't care.

Do any other Motie's have three way races for Senate and Governor? What's happening here in Minnesota is a concern toward my ideal. I'm seeing that two parties, Dems. and Indeps. make up half and Reps make up half in the polls. Therefore the Dems and Indeps just cancel each other out. What kind of election is that?!

725. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/20/2002 12:35:09 PM

I agree Rick, but I was attacked first and I do recall apologizing for unsolicited attacks when I made them.

726. jexster - 9/20/2002 12:39:21 PM

CNN reports, "Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI), called it a 'non-starter' and an 'affront to the Constitution.' 'This proposal is a case of the administration telling Congress to stop asking questions and literally 'leaves it all to us.' To endorse such language would be irresponsible,' said Feingold. The language could lead to a 'miniature Armageddon' or 'potential World War III,' said Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-FL), who said he will write an alternative resolution with fellow liberal Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA), that would place more pre-conditions on Bush before he could use force in Iraq. 'Nothing in our intelligence suggests that Iraq is ready to attack Washington or Fort Lauderdale,' Hastings said. Rep. Jim McDermott (D-WA) agreed. 'There is no question that Saddam Hussein is not a nice person or that he's broken the resolutions of the UN, but that does not give us the power to pre-emptively strike a country,' he said. 'Once you start down that road, where do you stop?'"
The War to Make Bush Believable:
Gulf of Tonkin II

``We need to quit making enemies that we don't need to make enemies out of. It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot and are hot to go to war see it another way.'' Gen. Anthony Zinni (USMC-ret)

Semper Fi

727. jexster - 9/20/2002 12:50:26 PM

National Network to

End The War

Against Iraq

728. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:03:23 PM

i>President Bush's request to Congress yesterday for authorization to invade Iraq marked the broadest request for military authority by any White House since President Lyndon B. Johnson won approval of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution in1964, legal scholars said

Gulf of Tonkin II

U.S. Naval Institute: The Secret Side of the Tonkin Gulf Incident

729. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:05:38 PM

Senator Wayne Morse (D-OR) challenged the account, and argued that despite evidence that 34A missions and Desoto patrols were not operating in tandem, Hanoi could only have concluded that they were. But Morse did not know enough about the program to ask pointed questions. "I think we are kidding the world if you try to give the impression that when the South Vietnamese naval boats bombarded two islands a short distance off the coast of North Vietnam we were not implicated," he scornfully told McNamara during the hearings.16

The fig leaf of plausible denial served McNamara in this case, but it was scant cover. Hanoi was more than willing to tell the world about the attacks, and it took either a fool or an innocent to believe that the United States knew nothing about the raids. Despite McNamara’s nimble answers, North Vietnam’s insistence that there was a connection between 34A and the Desoto patrols was only natural.

Despite Morse’s doubts, Senate reaction fell in behind the Johnson team, and the question of secret operations was overtaken by the issue of punishing Hanoi for its blatant attack on a U.S. warship in international waters. On 7 August, the Senate passed the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, allowing the administration greater latitude in expanding the war by a vote of 88 to 2. Senator Morse was one of the dissenters. The House passed the resolution unanimously.17

America’s Vietnam War had begun in earnest

730. joezan - 9/20/2002 1:14:17 PM

Ohgeez - leave it to some washed-up, dried-out, old San Francisco lefty pining for the "good ol'" days of Haight Ashbury to draw a comparison between Iraq and VietNam.

731. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:31:43 PM

The comparison is self evident.

732. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:34:14 PM

Just took a Zogby on-line poll. Its a special project to develop a database and statistical methods to conduct reliable online polling.

At any rate, there were lots of Iraq, presidential preference questions but the one that stands out,

- Would you support the reinstitution of the draft

733. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:36:02 PM

Leave it to a corn pone crackpot whose family is set with gas masks to meet Jaysus in the air...

Law professors said the language Bush submitted yesterday stopped just short of the breadth of the 1964 resolution that Johnson used as a justification for escalating U.S. involvement in Vietnam. That resolution, passed unanimously in the House and with only two dissenters in the Senate, authorized all necessary measures to repel armed attack against U.S. forces and "prevent further aggression" in Southeast Asia.

734. joezan - 9/20/2002 1:43:54 PM

Yeah - you're comparing similar resolutions proposed under extremely different circumstances in order to wed one situation to the other.

735. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:57:12 PM

That's progress..

RESOLVED: the resolutions are similar

So too is the bullshit about the respective threats which is why I included with the link, a short history of the First Gulf of Tonkin resolution, prepared not by a "wacky lefty" outfit such as the US Conf of Catholic Bishops but by the US Naval Institute

Note well the political parallels, both involved a Texas president giving Congress the hotbox bum's rush under highly dubious circumstances.

Recall too that in GWI, it was Bob Dole, Republican Leader who successfully fought to postpone the vote until after the election.

Even if I were to buy into every single factual scrap of "evidence" that the Bushies are leaking , and draw every single adverse inference (short of the purely paranoid), if I were to take Cheney's 8/26 speech and posit truth to everything he said, I still could not conclude that Bush needed this resolution, now.

Given that, I could only conclude, even if I were to accept all that has been said about Iraq's risks, that Bush doesn't want a thorough inquiry into the resolution he has submitted.

736. jexster - 9/20/2002 1:58:22 PM

The economic similarity between our current difficulties and the slump under the first George Bush is stronger than most people realizeM

The Vision Thing - Krugman

737. ivan osokin - 9/20/2002 2:31:10 PM

jex...

a euro friend once said that the american political system is the most myopic on the planet. it's easy to see how right he is. the major obstruction in coming to a rational understanding of things comes from the ditto-head-patrioto-puppets who refuse to expand the discourse on current situations to include the causal agents for them which occured in the recent past. instead of acknowledging that the situation in Iraq is their own fault, they spend time critiquing "the left" and its insistence on recognizing the fact that the "evils" were caused by the same people criticizing them. if you open the window to the past to show the corruption of the present, you're branded as a wacko.

don't bother, jex. leave them be. hopefully their cancerous presence will remain endemic to the swamp in which they fester...and maybe these joyless, armchair cretins can reap the rewards of causing world war III in ways that are as slow and painful as their ideologies.

and dantes, a correction: i'm not a lefty, i'm an anarchist. according to the yahoos on this ist, the left only consists of socialists and other statists. well i'm not. i, like betty, would be quite willing to smash your face in when you wave your shit my way. you pseudo-hawks talk a lot of shit when it's only compacted to sugarcoated images on your screen...i suspect that in real life (if you have one), you're lonely, self-righteous prigs who only socialize with other self-righteous prigs who share your deranged vision of an american WASPtopia.

but i do enjoy watching you make ad-hominem attacks instead of substantiating your claim with anything other than your spoon-fed opinion.

until i post again, i'll be lurking and smirking.

738. jexster - 9/20/2002 2:39:37 PM

Not since "Mein Kampf" has a geopolitical punch been so blatantly telegraphed, years ahead of the blow.

Adolf Hitler clearly spelled out his plans to destroy the Jews and launch wars of conquest to secure German domination of world affairs in his 1925 book, long before he ever assumed power. Despite the zigzags of rhetoric he later employed, the various PR spins and temporary justifications offered for this or that particular policy, any attentive reader of his vile regurgitation could have divined his intentions as he drove his country -- and the world -- to murderous upheaval.

Similarly -- in method, if not entirely in substance -- the Bush Regime's foreign policy is also being carried out according to a strict blueprint written years ago, then renewed a few months before the Regime was installed in power by the judicial coup of December 2000

Chris Floyd: 'Dark passage'

739. jexster - 9/20/2002 2:47:50 PM

"Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It's a classic tactic. It's one that Hitler used." - Herta Daeubler-Gmelin, Germany's justice minister





Hail Bush:
A new Roman empire
September 20 2002 - Sydney Morning Herald

They came, they saw, they conquered. Now the United States dominates the world. With the rise of the New Age Roman empire, how long before the fall?

The word of the hour is empire. As the United States marches to war, no other label quite seems to capture the scope of American power or the scale of its ambition. "Sole superpower" is accurate enough, but seems oddly modest. "Hyperpower" might appeal to the French; "hegemon" is favoured by academics. But empire is the big one, the gorilla of geopolitical designations - and suddenly the US is bearing its name.

Of course, enemies of the US have shaken their fist at its "imperialism" for decades: they are doing it again now, as Washington wages a global "war against terror" and braces itself for a campaign aimed at "regime change" in a foreign, sovereign state. What is more surprising, and much newer, is that the notion of a US empire has suddenly become a live debate inside the US. And not just among Europhile liberals either, but across the range - from left to right.

740. joezan - 9/20/2002 2:58:50 PM

Note well the political parallels, both involved a Texas president giving Congress the hotbox bum's rush under highly dubious circumstances.

By GOD - he's cracked the code!

How could we all have missed this?

741. jexster - 9/20/2002 3:01:21 PM

What they told us in 2000:

GOV. BUSH: Well, I think they ought to look at us as a country that understands freedom; where it doesn't matter who you are or how you're raised or where you're from, that you can succeed. I don't think they ought to look at us with envy.

It really depends upon how our nation conducts itself in foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us. If we're a humble nation but strong, they'll welcome us. And our nation stands alone right now in the world in terms of power, and that's why we've got to be humble and yet project strength in a way that promotes
freedom.

So I don't -- I don't think they ought to look at us in any way other than what we are.

We're a freedom-loving nation. And if we're an arrogant nation,they'll view us that way, but if we're a humble nation, they'll respect us.

742. jexster - 9/20/2002 3:01:37 PM

What they didn't tell us in 2000:



the aptly-named Project for a New American Century (PNAC). Members included hard-right players like Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Zalmay Khalilzad and other empire aspirants currently perched in the upper reaches of government power.


In September 2000, PNAC updated the original Cheney plan in a published report, "Strengthening America's Defenses." In this and related documents, the earlier precepts were reiterated and refined. The plans called for unprecedented hikes in military spending, the plantation of American bases in Central Asia and the Middle East, the toppling of recalcitrant regimes, the militarization of outer space, the abrogation of international treaties, the willingness to use nuclear weapons and control of the world's energy resources.

And the present course of action was clearly set forth: "The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

743. joezan - 9/20/2002 3:14:15 PM

So?

What's wrong with that?

744. PelleNilsson - 9/20/2002 3:46:56 PM

Message # 738

jexster is using Moscow Times as a source. Hohoho! What is next? Baghdad Times?

745. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 3:52:19 PM

Don't know how to break this to you dear, but the Cold war is over and the Russians are now our allies.

746. PelleNilsson - 9/20/2002 4:03:02 PM

... the Cold war is over and the Russians are now our allies.

What colossal naivete.

747. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 5:09:13 PM

i, like betty, would be quite willing to smash your face in when you wave your shit my way. you pseudo-hawks talk a lot of shit when it's only compacted to sugarcoated images on your screen

Haha. You and your current hump are the intellectual frauds making threats from behind the safety of the local library's computer screen.

Get a job, mushbrains. Preferably one that doesn't require the use of capital letters.

until i post again, i'll be lurking and smirking.

But certainly not working, right?

748. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 5:36:33 PM

Time to re-enlist, Count.

SADDAM HUSSEIN WANTS YOUR WIFE'S PUSSY!!!!

(or is it enlist ?)

749. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 6:02:40 PM

SADDAM HUSSEIN WANTS YOUR WIFE'S PUSSY!!!!

Saddam doesn't need pussy when he's getting all the fellatio and anal he can handle right here.

Cellar Door is an anal reference, isn't it? Doesn't your moniker announce that you're an asshole?

750. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 6:08:26 PM

Marcel Duchamp said the most beautiful words in the enlish language were "Cellar Door."

Can we have some more demonstrations of your ignorance, sexual infantilism and overall lack of culture?

751. jexster - 9/20/2002 6:30:31 PM

By GOD - he's cracked the code!

Lunatic Fringe
In the twilight's last gleaming
This is open season
But you won't get too far
We know you've got to blame someone
For your own confusion
But we're on guard this time
Against your final solution

What to do When Your Imaginary Friend Tells You He's Jaysus

752. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 6:30:32 PM

Knock me over with a feather. After you told me you were gay I assumed it referenced your sexual proclivities.

Looks like you're wrong about Marcel Duchamp and the "enlish" language, however. It was Tolkien, and he didn't say "cellar door" was the most beautiful, just...

Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that cellar door is 'beautiful', especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful than, say, sky, and far more beautiful than beautiful.

How about another lecture on ignorance and lack of culture, Anal Door? At least I know where my own moniker comes from!

753. jexster - 9/20/2002 6:33:22 PM

Sybil

754. jexster - 9/20/2002 6:34:32 PM

Edmund Dantes, an illiterate sailor who is sent to prison

755. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 6:35:32 PM

No it was Duchamp.

I don't read trash like Tolkien.

And an obsession with spelling error is, as they say. . .anal.

756. jexster - 9/20/2002 6:39:21 PM

accused falsely of supporting

757. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 6:44:40 PM

As a friend on another board says:

"We are headed for war for one reason alone: the oil companies want control of Iraqi oil and after gaining that they want to move on to Saudi Arabia. Sound incredible? Just watch...if there's anyone left around to watch after the bombs start falling.

The oil companies installed the Chimp in office. They dictate his every move. He is a total idiot who is totally subservient to them. It counts not a whit what the American or any other public thinks, the oil companies are going to use American military power to grab Middle Eastern oil. It's that simple.

The model is already in place in South America where the U. S. is forcing proxy troops to expend all their energies to guard American oil pipelines.

A remark I saw a few days ago set me thinking. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the world was presented with a unique opportunity. Remember all those awestruck news analyses of the challenge of world peace? It sounded incredible. Turns out it was.

We have miserably botched the unique opportunity in human history and done it very quickly and thoroughly. Bush has succeeded in turning what should have been a defining era in human history where we made enormous strides to real human progress on a number of fronts into a replay of the Nazi era, except this time with nuclear and other horrendous weapons of destruction. Instead of one mankind's finest hours, we are on verge of entering one of the darkest periods in human history. It did not have to be this way. "

758. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 7:32:35 PM

It's in a published lecture by Tolkien ("English and Welsh," October 21, 1955. Do you have a cite for Duchamp saying it?

Or did you just overhear him saying it to Julius Caesar at a dinner party hosted by William Shakespeare?

759. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 7:35:25 PM

Maybe we should take this to the Inferno.

760. Edmund Dantes - 9/20/2002 7:40:34 PM

If you're not interested in getting "to the bottom" of this, we can just drop it and go back to the thread topic: how Saddam wants to rape my alleged wife.

761. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 7:42:44 PM

Oh you're not married?

Girlfriend?

Boyfriend?

I'm sure Saddam would be happy with YOUR ass.

762. Cellar Door - 9/20/2002 7:45:31 PM

Then again maybe he wouldn't.

He's EVIL, you know.

George W. Bush said so, and if anyone knows about EVIL it's certainly George W. Bush.

After all, his wife's a murderess.

763. joezan - 9/20/2002 9:00:21 PM

I don't know what's worse, cellar - the painfully tedious "observations" you copy-n-paste from who-knows-where, or the hilariously earnest and wacky "articles" Wiz posts from sites even Jexster won't visit.

I swear -between you three it's a struggle to find the relevance.

764. jexster - 9/20/2002 9:18:29 PM

"Bush has fallen into the classic trap of world superpowers. Just because it has the power, it uses it without serious thought for the consequences." Jessica Mathews, President, Carnegie Endowment

GOV. BUSH: Yeah, I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say, "This is the way it gotta be." We can help. And may it's just our difference in government -- the way we view government. I mean, I want to empower people. I don't -- you
know, I want to help people help themselves, not have government tell people what to do. I just don't think it's the role of the United States to walk into a country, say, "We do it this way; so should you."

Following the terrorist attacks, Bush changed course, declaring war on terrorism, assuring the American people that “the outcome is certain” and informing the world that “you are either with us or against us.” Long frustrated by even the most conservative U.S. administrations, the hawks finally came to dominate American policy. Their position is clear: The United States wields overwhelming military power, and even though countless foreign leaders consider it unwise for Washington to flex its military muscles, these same leaders cannot and will not do anything if the United States simply imposes its will on the rest. The hawks believe the United States should act as an imperial power for two reasons: First, the United States can get away with it. And second, if Washington doesn’t exert its force, the United States will become increasingly marginalized. The Eagle Has Crash Landed - Wallerstein

765. jexster - 9/20/2002 9:22:00 PM

War is the Health of the State
This witch's brew of vainglory, worship of force, and threat-mongering has been an increasingly common trait among American opinion makers since the collapse of the Soviet Union; but 9/11 pumped it to epidemic levels.

But there may be another more frightening ingredient in this brew—one that was not present in Wilhelmine Germany prior to World War I.

766. jexster - 9/20/2002 9:22:27 PM

It is also probably not a coincidence that this complex psychology of aggressive attitudes flourishes at a time when other institutions in American society have experienced a collapse in credibility unprecedented since the Viet Nam War. Whether it is the Presidential election process, the credibility of business and the breakdown of the social contract between workers and executives, the performance of the FBI and CIA, or even the morality of important nongovernmental institutions like the Catholic Church, the dominoes have been falling one by one in America.

Public opinion, as measured by the elites for the elites, has not really registered the widespread nature of the collapse of credibility

What better way, then, to divert public attention from mounting economic problems and the collapse of institutional credibility than to fix the people's gaze on an endless array of foreign threats?

Or to put it more elegantly: "War is the health of the State. It automatically sets in motion throughout society those irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate cooperation with the Government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense .. . the nation in war-time attains a uniformity of feeling, a hierarchy of values culminating at the undisputed apex of the State ideal, which could not possibly be produced through any other agency than war...The State is intimately connected with war, for it is the organization of the collective community when it acts in a political manner, and to act in a political manner towards a rival group has meant, throughout all history - war." [A War Diary by Randolph Bourne, September 1917]

Preemption:Bush's Nuclear Schliffen Plan

767. jexster - 9/20/2002 9:23:45 PM

Hey Zan..how do you know which sites I visit?

And what's wrong with Liberty University for Jaysus' sake?

768. Cellar Door - 9/21/2002 3:17:36 PM

Understanding Dubbya.

769. jexster - 9/21/2002 5:02:48 PM

Preemption Plan Likely fo Further Isolate U.S.
Policy: Some critics worry that other nations will see a rationale to also strike preemptively.

770. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/21/2002 5:07:00 PM

Thanks Cellar-- Miller is right on target and it's scary to think that the roll of court baffoon (whose job it was to keep the king aware of his humanity) has become the king.

771. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/21/2002 5:19:48 PM

roll=role

772. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/21/2002 9:42:15 PM

773. joezan - 9/21/2002 10:40:01 PM

Ok - all together now:

One....Two....Three -

NO CONTROLLING LEGAL AUTHORITY!

FEC Issues Record Fines In Democrats' Scandals:

...Those penalized included the Democratic National Committee, the Clinton-Gore campaign, the Buddhist temple and nearly two
dozen people and corporations acting as conduits for illegal contributions. All have agreed to pay, according to the documents.

...In more than 400 pages of documents, the FEC detailed a variety of illegal fundraising schemes in the 1996 Clinton reelection
organization...

774. joezan - 9/21/2002 10:40:52 PM

Toys

775. Al D - 9/22/2002 12:22:04 AM

http://president.harvard.edu/speeches/2002/morningprayers.html

I don't know how to link, but the above is an article written by the President of Harvard about the increse in anti-semitism recently.

What I can't figure out is why so much criticism of Israel is coming from the left. The Jewish community has been a major supporter of the left, and yet it seems that the past cuts no slack. It also seems strange that so much support for Saddam Hussian is coming from the left.

776. judithathome - 9/22/2002 12:28:27 AM

Al, I hope you aren't assuming that we who oppose the war with Iraq are supportive of Saddam...there IS a huge difference.

777. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:05:33 AM

No JAH...silly woman..there's no difference at all...


When the super patriots get all glorified with their self righteousness and feed their demons, the world becomes simple
- traitors / patriots
- Against Iraq War/Love Saddam

Simple minds, simple shit

778. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:09:38 AM

Rank Sedition Follows

779. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:14:16 AM

WASHINGTON — Don't feel bad if you have the uneasy feeling that you're being steamrolled. You are not alone.

As my girlfriend Dana said: "Bush is like the guy who reserves a hotel room and then asks you to the prom."

As the Pentagon moves troops, carriers, covert agents and B-2 bombers into the Persian Gulf, the president, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld continue their pantomime of consultation.

When Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota asked the defense chief on Thursday, "What is compelling us to now make a precipitous decision and take precipitous actions?" an exasperated Mr. Rumsfeld sputtered: "What's different? What's different is 3,000 people were killed."



Come again????

Causuistry Belli:Culture Wars with B-2 Bombers

780. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:27:10 AM

Pelle - were you born looking ridiculous or did you have to work at it.

Red baiting died over a decade ago. Ole Pooty Poot's soul is pure as the first snows at Magnitogorsk.

Get with the program Pelle - its Kill A Sand Nigger for Christ...

And don't you have some work to do for the International Policy Making Seminar - Graham Allison's "Essence of Decision"; Alexander George's "Limits of Coercive Diplomacy"; Thomas Schelling's "Strategy of Conflict"

And for extra credit toward helping you understand Bush's rampant bloodlust - Gen Friedrich vonBerhnardi's The Next War

781. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:43:52 AM

And Al what are we gonna do with you and First Baghdad Combined Denture Army [aka the Gruesome Gummy Boys]?

I know!

Well put you and Richard Perle together on the first wave.

"Senator Hagel, who was among the earliest voices to question Mr. Bush's approach to Iraq, said today that the Central Intelligence Agency had "absolutely no evidence" that Iraq possesses or will soon possess nuclear weapons.

He said he shared Mr. Kissinger's concern that Mr. Bush's policy of pre-emptive strikes at governments armed with weapons of mass destruction could induce India to attack Pakistan and could create the political cover for Israel to expel Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza.

"You can take the country into a war pretty fast," Mr. Hagel said, "but you can't get out as quickly, and the public needs to know what the risks are."

He added,

"Maybe Mr. Perle [and Al D's Gruesome Gummy Boys] would like to be in the first wave of those who go into Baghdad."

Did ya hear, NOW we are engaged in a War of Liberation!

782. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:44:46 AM

And speaking of war Al, one pricey lunch at Zuni only buys you so much peace.

783. jexster - 9/22/2002 5:53:37 AM

The Moscow Times, Independent Press' flagship edition, was launched in March 1992 as a twice-weekly, and relaunched in October 1992 as a daily. The foreign community and Russian business people depend a great deal on the newspaper for up-to-the-minute news on Moscow, Russia and the world. The paper is an objective, reliable source for English-language news on business, politics and culture. It remains an unrivaled advertising medium for reaching local business people and decision-makers.

The Moscow Times first went online in 1997 at www.moscowtimes.ru and relaunched in the spring of 2000 at www.themoscowtimes.com.

The paper's sister publication, the St. Petersburg Times is also quite informative. Both are useful sources of Russian opinion and news especially timely now that Pooty Poot is playin hard to get.

The Independent Media Group, a Dutch company, publishes both papers along with about 20 periodicals.

784. jexster - 9/22/2002 6:00:46 AM

Double extra credit (Pelle you REALLY need it - This ain't Upsala U.), the Floyd article in the Moscow Times was the source of the quote about the Project for the New American Century -Off Season Rest Home for overripe Cold Warriors and ChickenHawk Hatchery

785. jexster - 9/22/2002 6:04:50 AM

WASHINGTON — Don't feel bad if you have the uneasy feeling that you're being steamrolled. You are not alone.

As my girlfriend Dana said: "Bush is like the guy who reserves a hotel room and then asks you to the prom."

As the Pentagon moves troops, carriers, covert agents and B-2 bombers into the Persian Gulf, the president, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld continue their pantomime of consultation.

When Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota asked the defense chief on Thursday, "What is compelling us to now make a precipitous decision and take precipitous actions?" an exasperated Mr. Rumsfeld sputtered: "What's different? What's different is 3,000 people were killed."



Come again????

Causuistry Belli:Culture Wars with B-2 Bombers

786. jexster - 9/22/2002 6:06:07 AM

Ivan - Some things are too important to leave to the herd

787. ronski - 9/22/2002 10:59:51 AM

Whereas just a few weeks ago the elections seemed to be trending toward the Democrats, the view increasingly held by the punditocracy is that the House will remain firmly in GOP hands, and that the Dems are in serious danger of losing the Senate. I suspect this would be the case even the voters did not significantly support Bush's war plans, though they are doing that.

Part of the problem for the Dems is self-inflicted. Both parties have succeeded over the past decade or so, via the state houses, of creating "safe" seats for one party or the other, at the expense of swing districts. As it happened, when the dust settled the GOP happened to be ahead in the number of seats they controlled, and now the Dems will pay for having participated in the incumbency protection racket.

788. Cellar Door - 9/22/2002 12:26:10 PM

I just wish we had more than one political party.

789. jexster - 9/22/2002 1:33:15 PM

"People say, how can I help on this war against terror? How can I fight evil? You can do so by mentoring a child; by going into a shut-in's house and say I love you."—Washington, D.C., Sept. 19, 2002

Why a question I have asked myself two, three times a week avg over the past 54 ....

And they say he's shallow, that he's a moron and treats us as if we were too.

790. jexster - 9/22/2002 1:42:34 PM

For reasons I won't go into incumbency protection is less a designed racket than a systemic imperative...courts, redistricting legislative battles, and it happens not only at the federal level, same dynamic at work here in SF's recent supervisorial redistricting...

Our parties aren't smart enough or cohesive enough or disciplined enough to coordinate 50 statehouses just because 535 people in DC want job security. And that in a nutshell is the problem...stake at the state level insufficient to justify the political costs...

791. iiibbb - 9/22/2002 1:44:59 PM

As my girlfriend Dana said: "Bush is like the guy who reserves a hotel room and then asks you to the prom."

Whereas a Clinton would probably just fuck you.

or a Gore, who would ask you to the prom, tell you what you should wear, make you pay for the hotel room... and then fuck you.

792. Cellar Door - 9/22/2002 2:49:53 PM

"Whereas a Clinton would probably just fuck you."

And you'd just love it !

Tell me dear, when did this craving for Clinton's cock first come over you?

793. ronski - 9/22/2002 4:50:48 PM

Who said anything about coordinating all 50 state houses or legislatures. Fact remains safe-seat redistricting, with each party making deals with the other, was accomplished in a significant number of states because the players wanted it so, enough states to make a significant change in the makeup of the House virtually impossible.

794. iiibbb - 9/22/2002 6:21:13 PM

Message # 792

When yours turned out to be too small?

795. Cellar Door - 9/22/2002 8:46:47 PM

Ya think?

796. Cellar Door - 9/22/2002 11:02:25 PM

At Last -- a solution to Florida's Election fiascos !

797. jexster - 9/22/2002 11:10:31 PM

"For more than a year Bill McBride touted himself as the man who could fulfill Florida Democrats' wildest dream: He could beat Jeb Bush. 'I've sized him up,' McBride would say in his folksy drawl as he stumped for votes in the state's Democratic gubernatorial primary. 'I can take him.' A combat-decorated Marine, [McBride doesn't lack for confidence. Jeb Bush's attack ads confirmed] for Florida Democrats what McBride had been telling them all along: He could beat Bush... The potent synergy of public dissatisfaction with state education and Democratic animus toward Bush was on display when McBride addressed a meeting of the FEA... The teachers' union, of course, supports McBride -- [but] as much as the teachers like McBride, they detest Bush... One FEA member sported her own homemade pin:
Jesus Loves You, Jeb. Everyone Else Thinks You're An Asshole TNR

798. jexster - 9/23/2002 12:53:16 AM

799. thoughtful - 9/23/2002 1:36:25 PM

American and British warplanes patrolling Iraq's no-flight zones have recently shifted tactics to bombing major air defense sites in those areas, a move that could help clear air lanes for an allied attack, military officials said today. 9/16 NY times

It's just like when Teddy Roosevelt was in office and he was willing to keep the discussions going about whether or not to build the Panama canal...as long as construction continued during the discussions.

Whether or not Congress, the UN, or anyone else approves of an attack on Iraq, it's going to happen anyway...in fact, it would seem as if it has already begun.

800. joezan - 9/23/2002 1:46:47 PM

Yup - it's what's known as pre-pre-emption. It's a wonderful thing - just think how much of a head start we'll have when the real thing starts.

801. robertjayb - 9/23/2002 2:28:14 PM

jexster affirmed...

WASHINGTON - A judge at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission today found that subsidiaries of Houston-based El Paso Corp. illegally exercised market power to squeeze California natural gas supplies, and recommended that the commission institute penalties against the company.

802. concerned - 9/23/2002 6:09:55 PM

Re. 801 -

Is that so? A rare event indeed, assuming what rjb leaves unsaid even points to GWB in any way.

803. Cellar Door - 9/23/2002 8:27:48 PM

Our President gave a fine speech today.

804. robertjayb - 9/23/2002 10:21:14 PM

Excitement about oil prospects in post-Saddam Iraq...(Fort Worth Star-Telegram)

Well, I, for one, am shocked, shocked I tell you...

WASHINGTON - A U.S.-led invasion of Iraq could sharply retool world oil markets and open Iraq's vast oil reserves to U.S. energy companies if Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein is driven from power, international energy experts say.

Although Saddam's expulsion is the principal objective of a potential military strike, oil is quickly emerging as an important subtext. U.S. oil producers, though professing caution, are already contemplating enormous potential in a post-Saddam Iraq.

805. judithathome - 9/23/2002 10:48:22 PM

assuming what rjb leaves unsaid even points to GWB in any way.

Who said anything about GWB? Neither the article linked nor RJB mentioned GWB at all...could it be YOU are the one seeing the connection, concerned?

806. joezan - 9/23/2002 11:15:51 PM

Don't be dense, judith. RJB said the story affirms jasper's rantings, which were all about GW's supposed complicity in this scheme. So the fact that the story makes no mention of Bush substantially mitigates RJB's claims of jasper's prescience, instead of the other way around.

807. robertjayb - 9/23/2002 11:30:40 PM

Defense against assertions not made is classic wingnut practice. Ms. Coulter is a master of the technique and Joezan and concerned are eager students.

808. joezan - 9/23/2002 11:34:14 PM

Are you saying that Message # 806 is untrue?

Are you going to try and say that jasper's many hundreds of posts did not - every single last one of them - attempt to make the case that GWB was right in the thick of it?

809. robertjayb - 9/23/2002 11:38:44 PM

Perfect, joezan. That's right out of the manual.

810. judithathome - 9/23/2002 11:39:23 PM

Go to bed, joezan...you're too wrought over your boy. Even HE doesn't know WTF he means.

811. joezan - 9/23/2002 11:40:13 PM

arf!

812. judithathome - 9/23/2002 11:50:38 PM

You can't even make an intelligent retort, you little man.

Arf, indeed, you little Corgi. Short legs, you know. Ha!!!

813. concerned - 9/24/2002 12:52:37 AM

...oil is quickly emerging as an important subtext. U.S. oil producers, though professing caution, are already contemplating enormous potential in a post-Saddam Iraq.


Get real. Iraq would only competitively produce 2-3% of the world's oil. And this assumption that 'U.S.' oil producers would greatly benefit from such a small relative source doesn't follow, either. The continued LW harping about Iraq oil being a justification for any military action is beyond trite and inane - it's also simply not supported by the facts.

814. concerned - 9/24/2002 12:58:09 AM

Re. 807 -

That's a pretty cheap swipe, rjb.

815. concerned - 9/24/2002 12:59:59 AM

But probably the best you can do.

816. concerned - 9/24/2002 1:16:13 AM

joezan -

It's clear rjb holds in the highest regard jexster's political hackery. rjb must particularly admire jexster's continual recourse to personal epithets and scatological references which apparently must sound to rjb like the voice of reason itself.

Go figure.

817. concerned - 9/24/2002 1:20:01 AM

A U.S.-led invasion of Iraq could sharply retool world oil markets....

Absolutely false.

818. Cellar Door - 9/24/2002 2:06:29 PM

Eric's latest --with an assist from yours truly.

819. joezan - 9/24/2002 2:42:41 PM

Uncanny, the resemblance Alterman has to the common woodchuck.

820. jexster - 9/24/2002 2:53:00 PM

We should listen to Karl Rove when he lauds former presidents. For example, Mr. Rove has lately taken to saying that George W. Bush is another Andrew Jackson. As Congress considers Mr. Bush's demand that the Homeland Security Department be exempt from civil service rules, it should recall that those rules were introduced out of revulsion over the "spoils system," under which federal appointments were reserved for political loyalists — a practice begun under Jackson.

But Mr. Rove's original model was William McKinley. Until Sept. 11, we thought that Mr. Rove admired McKinley's domestic political strategy. But McKinley was also the president who acquired an overseas empire. And there's a definite whiff of imperial ambition in the air once again.

Of course the new Bush doctrine, in which the United States will seek "regime change" in nations that we judge might be future threats, is driven by high moral purpose. But McKinley-era imperialists also thought they were morally justified. The war with Spain — which ruled its colonies with great brutality, but posed no threat to us — was justified by an apparent act of terror, the sinking of the battleship Maine, even though no evidence ever linked that attack to Spain. And the purpose of our conquest of the Philippines was, McKinley declared, "to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them."


Take up the White Man's burden!
Have done with childish days--
The lightly-proffered laurel,
The easy ungrudged praise

821. jexster - 9/24/2002 2:54:43 PM

A Moron with an Napoleon complex...oh shit

822. Cellar Door - 9/24/2002 3:09:55 PM

As usual when Conservabots can't face facts they resort to making fun of the way people look.

How much wood can a woodchuck chuck, joe?

823. jexster - 9/24/2002 3:15:44 PM

When all else fails, spew, spit, slime, slander Limbaugh Legion -Basic Training for Morons

824. jexster - 9/24/2002 3:30:24 PM

From Be Careful What You Pray For Dept: If I were TD, I'd be concerned

"I say to the governor that your negative campaigns against me during the primary did not work and they won't work in the general election, either Let's don't hide behind thirty-second television ads. ... Let's not worry about who has the best blow-dried hair. Let's not have people speak for you. Come out and speak for yourself! ... Let's pick it up, let's raise the level, and let's ... go toe to toe!

"I think that what Jeb Bush should do is quit hiding behind his thirty-second television ads. We're gonna get a flatbed truck and we'll drive around, and we'll go from city to city. Just me and him. He can stand up and talk about what his policies are, what he sees as the future of Florida, and then I'll talk. He'll talk, I'll talk. Then we'll take questions and let everybody go at it. The old style of politics where you hide behind handlers, where you have blow-dried hair, where you wear makeup, I don't want that anymore.

I'm ready, Jeb. Are you?"


Bill McBride

825. jexster - 9/24/2002 3:50:39 PM

On the Pathology of the Moron Mind:
Deliver us from Evil Morons


Of all the explanations for Sept. 11, 2001, and the subsequent alleged war on terrorism, the least illuminating is that it's all about evil. We didn't know or didn't appreciate that there is evil in the world. Now we do know, or ought to. In President Bush's "axis of evil" speech last January, the first item on his list of truths "we have come to know" after 9/11 is that "evil is real, and it must be opposed."

If the great essential truth about terrorism is that some people just hate the United States, the obvious next question is: Why? But that is precisely the question that offends the All-About-Evil crowd...Terrorism is evil, evil, evil -- gosh, it's evil --and there's nothing else to discuss."

This is an astonishingly philistine, know-nothing posture for a group of people (mostly neoconservative would-be muscular-intellectual types) who generally preen as the guardians of intellectual standards. This is not just anti-intellectual but actually a hindrance to the war on terrorism. Blocking any deeper understanding of the terrorists' mentality and motives cannot be good for the war effort.

Using the word "evil" to resist any more complex understanding of terrorism is doubly philistine because of what the study of evolutionary psychology is learning about how much of human behavior is hard-wired into our brains.

Ordinarily conservatives are quite thrilled by the idea of a genetic basis for nearly anything.... The whole subject appeals to their treasured sense of futility.

In any event, wrapping yourself in the flag and burying your head in the sand is not an appropriate way to deal with an unwelcome philosophical challenge. It may not be evil, but it isn't very nice.

826. jexster - 9/24/2002 4:15:07 PM

827. thoughtful - 9/24/2002 4:49:23 PM

I've always thought of political parties as needing common enemies to unite them: the reps as the party fighting communism and dems as the party fighting poverty. When the cold war ended, the dems had the advantage as poverty is ever-present.

Now this cold-warrior bunch is hell-bent on creating a new enemy to replace communism. Remember before 9/11 the incessant push for SDI? 9/11 handed them al qaeda, but that was clearly not enough. A "victory" in Afghanistan against the Taliban was spoiled by no Bin Laden, no Mullah Omar, and continued al qaeda activity. They need a more decisive win. They need the axis of evil to replace the evil empire.

828. concerned - 9/24/2002 4:58:38 PM

Silly, silly, silly. It's for certain that virtually everybody in the GWB administration sincerely wishes 9/11 had never happened, and accordingly strongly condemns the unforgivable laxity wrt international terrorism of the x42 administration which set the stage for the destruction of the WTC.

829. Cellar Door - 9/24/2002 5:06:00 PM

Sully Explained at Last!

830. concerned - 9/24/2002 5:21:14 PM

I will admit that, nowadays, Republicans are perhaps more prepared to adapt their foreign policies to the exigencies of realpolitik, but that doesn't justify an automatic assumption that everything they do results from aggressive tendencies and venal motives. I submit that's it's psychologically easier and quite a bit less demanding simply to blame the US, by those so inclined, for the violence done to us by others than it would be for anybody to take real measures to correct that situation.

831. Cellar Door - 9/24/2002 6:03:51 PM

Well now you're using logic.

And as you well know, logic is UnAmerican.

832. thoughtful - 9/25/2002 1:54:14 PM

concerned.. Are you still blaming WJC for everything? Doesn't the monotony get to you? WJC is not responsible for the great flood, the great depression or the storm of the century. When W's team came into the white house, sandy berger filled them in and told them they would be spending more time on al qaeda than anything else. If they didn't agree with how the departments involved were handling al qaeda, they should've changed it.

Republicans are perhaps more prepared to adapt their foreign policies to the exigencies of realpolitik...
Oh? Is that what you call it? When WJC did it, it was called spinning, triangulating, about-facing, lying, wimping out, governing by polls among other more nasty terms. But when W. does it, it's called "adapting". W's done more about faces than a drill team since he's been in office, but no one seems to call him on it. To arsenic or not to arsenic; to nation build or not to nation build; to consult with allies/UN/Congress on attacking Iraq or not to consult with allies/UN/Congress on attacking Iraq; to steel tariff or not to steel tariff; the iraqi threat is imminent, but not so imminent it can't wait til after August vacation...

833. Cellar Door - 9/25/2002 5:40:49 PM

TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) - The director of the Kansas Water Office has been arrested on suspicion of entering a sleeping woman's home in May and raping her.

Alan L. LeDoux, 55, who has served two GOP governors and is a Sunday school teacher, was arrested Tuesday and ordered held in lieu of $500,000 bond.

During an initial court appearance Wednesday by video from jail, LeDoux was advised of the charges, which include kidnapping, rape, sodomy and burglary.

LeDoux served as a member of the Republican State Committee in the early 1990s, chairman of the Jackson County Republican Central Committee and later as the vice chairman of the Jackson County Republican Party.

In Jackson County, where LeDoux has been a civic and church leader, longtime acquaintance Micheal Ireland said word of the arrest was "bizarre."

834. jexster - 9/25/2002 10:20:11 PM

Bush's Radical Conservatism - Broder

835. joezan - 9/25/2002 10:36:01 PM

Yup, cellar - give a guy a little power and it goes right to his, uh...head.

Case in point:

Influential (Gay, Democrat) Doctor Accused in Sex Case:

Dr. R. Scott Hitt, a prominent AIDS specialist, gay activist and former chairman of the Presidential Advisory Council on AIDS and HIV, has been accused by state regulators of sexually molesting two patients at a Beverly Hills medical office.

Hitt, the first openly gay person to head a presidential advisory body, acknowledged having touched one patient's genitalia in August 2000 and "crossing a boundary" with one other patient in July of that year, according to a formal accusation filed by the Medical Board of California, which regulates physicians.

Active in politics at the local and national levels, Hitt was an ardent supporter of Bill Clinton in the 1992 presidential campaign.

Three years later, Clinton named Hitt to head the influential AIDS panel, a 30-member body intended to advise the president on how to fight the epidemic. Within Hitt's first six weeks at the helm, the council issued eight recommendations that Clinton immediately put into effect, including convening a White House conference on the deadly disorder.

836. jexster - 9/25/2002 10:39:11 PM

White House Staff to Attend Emergency Survival Training

Welcome to the Boy Blunder's Brave New World Order

837. joezan - 9/25/2002 10:43:57 PM

Another Case in Point (and, gee - just what the hell is it with Southern (Democrat) governors and nursing home operators, anyway?):

838. joezan - 9/25/2002 11:03:41 PM

Oh yes...November is looking sweeter and sweeter...

DES MOINES, Iowa -- Iowa voters are trying to catch up on new developments Wednesday in the controversy surrounding the taping of a campaign meeting for candidate for U.S. Senate Greg Ganske.

Officials with the Polk County Attorney's Office told NewsChannel 8, they plan to launch a criminal investigation into the taping. Des Moines police are expected to start that investigation on Thursday.

Attorneys said they need to find out how a word-for-word transcription of a meeting at the Hotel Savery involving Ganske supporters made it to the Tom Harkin campaign and then to a reporter. Attorneys said the other key question they wanted answered, "Did anyone break either state or federal laws?"

839. Al D - 9/25/2002 11:13:19 PM

That right wing Fox has been harping on Gore's speach in S.F., pointing out the absurd claim he made that back in '91 he felt betrayed by Bush's failure to go after Hussan and take him out. Of course, Fox had to dig up what Gore actually said back in '91 where he said Bush did the right thing by ending the war. Can't Fox cut the guy a little slack?

By the way, can those who don't watch Fox tell me if CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNBC have been talking in detail about Gore's speach? If not, at least they're fair to the guy.

840. concerned - 9/26/2002 1:56:03 AM

Excerpt:

Instead of obsessing over why angry primitives hate Americans, a more fruitful area for Democrats to examine might be why Americans are beginning to hate Democrats.

841. Wombat - 9/26/2002 8:52:43 AM

Ann Coulter and other conservative mouth foamers hate the Democrats--because Democrats offer a responsible alternative to the Republicans' lunatic policies.

842. Wombat - 9/26/2002 8:54:32 AM

Democrats might ponder why allegedly intelligent people take anything that Ann Coulter and her ilk say seriously.

843. RickNelson - 9/26/2002 8:59:59 AM

What was Daschle upset about yesterday? I caught a small but, out of context bit on the news. Something Bush said.

844. judithathome - 9/26/2002 9:06:22 AM

He felt Bush had insulted Democrat veterns in the Congress.

Concerned, I can't believe you stoop to quoting Ann Coulter in the depths of your hatred for the left. That is a bit much, even for you.

845. RickNelson - 9/26/2002 9:06:29 AM

Ann Coulter is a loud mouthed, ego driven upstart who has no concept of diplomacy nor what true rightous indignation is!

846. RickNelson - 9/26/2002 9:21:41 AM

I read the NYT article just now.

The politicized marketing of war is the subject Daschle most abhors.

His view of W's remark that "Senate is more interested in special interests in Washington, and not interested in the security of the American people." attested to the fact there are veterans within the senate who take more than the usual exception to such an off hand statement.

W isn't hasn't given the appearence of quality oration, therefore it's likely the words were planned. The politicization of such words, which cast doubt of the veracity of said words, will polarize the senate and electorate. This is a bad move!

W made a mistake during this time of elections. He needs to stand up and restate, apologize and move us on.

847. Wombat - 9/26/2002 9:48:54 AM

Bush's handlers are concerned--with reason--that Republican electoral fortunes might fade if the Democrats are allowed to control the political agenda. So they start waving the "bloody shirt."

848. Wombat - 9/26/2002 9:50:11 AM

We must also remember that Bush initially opposed the creation of a cabinet level department for "homeland security."

849. judithathome - 9/26/2002 9:52:54 AM

Bush will never apologize for anything. It's not in his emotional make-up to admit to the possibility he might have been wrong. Which is really funny, considering everyone knows his words are scripted by others.

850. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 9:56:55 AM

Bush has nothing to apologize for. Democrats have impugned Republican intelligence, compassion, honesty, integrity, and just about anything else you can name in their drive to politicize various issues.

If they think their patriotism is being challenged, let 'em suck it up and demonstrate otherwise.

851. Wombat - 9/26/2002 10:18:45 AM

To question people's patriotism for expressing misgivings about the potential for politicization in a government department that until fairly recently, Bush opposed, is about on par with how this administration operates in general.

852. RickNelson - 9/26/2002 10:21:28 AM

Is that what Inoua of Hawaii should do? Hmmm?!

Does a senator have to lose more than his arm in battle to prove he's a patriot?

Please Dantes, there could be a different way to express than to act as if W's remarks go with impunity.

W's remarks, as Senator Daschle states are without question motivated by polarization of the electorate. That is irresponsible at best. A president stands for the unity of this nation and he's deliberately throwing a gauntlet glove into the faces of Democratic senators. This is a mistake and can be corrected with regard to the patriotism of these senators.

I do not want to now watch the debates twist with held back anger and divissiveness as never before.

853. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 10:27:17 AM

Blast from the Past: Columbine

1. “When you say a prayer for the children of Columbine today,” said Sen. Robert Toricelli, D-N.J., “when you express sorrow for what’s happened to them and their families and thousands of other people across the country, just remember before you go to vote in November.”

2. Democrats in Washington, emboldened by public outrage...and incensed at the Senate's rejection of their gun-sale bill, went on the offensive. "For the life of me", Clinton said, "I can't figure out how they did it, or why they passed up this chance to save lives."

3. Attorney General Janet Reno added: "I am stunned that less than one month after the worst school shooting in our nation's history, the Senate has decided to make it easier for felons, fugitives and other prohibited purchasers to buy guns."

854. RickNelson - 9/26/2002 10:33:16 AM

So this is old school for these Ladies and Gentlemen.

I have to admit to having been unaware of those violations of debate Dantes.

That kind of mud slinging is in the worst taste and unconscionable. Mistakes, all!

855. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 10:36:17 AM

Okay for Democrats to say Republicans care more about their special interest groups (NRA) than the safety of children, but not okay for Republicans to say Democrats care more about their special interest group (organized labor) than the safety of Americans?

Or is it just okay for Democrats to politicize their favorite wedge issues?

By the way, did Tom Daschle or other Democratic leaders express any outrage when Cynthia McKinney was delivering a speech like this last week?

Before we send our young men and women off to war, we need to really make sure that we're not sacrificing them so that rich and powerful men can prosecute a war for oil. I love this country too much to see it abused this way and I implore other Members of Congress to join me in denouncing this war of aggression.

856. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 10:36:55 AM

Crosspost.

857. Wombat - 9/26/2002 10:43:33 AM

That would be the soon-to-be-ex Congressperson Cynthia McKinney, of course. Any thoughts on why she might have lost the nomination? Could it have been the overwhelming lack of support she received from her colleagues and voters in her district?

However, to smear Democrats--and Republicans--who have legitimate questions (that are as yet unanswered) about the Bush administration's rush to war by using the ravings of Cynthia McKinney is the sort of thing that can be expected those who blindly support this administration.

858. judithathome - 9/26/2002 10:44:13 AM

Oh please, to act shocked that ALL politicians politicize things most of the time is just disingenuous. That's what they DO.

Democrats do it, Republicans do it and all of them bleat and moan about the others doing it. So Edmund, you're just as entitled to carp about it as we are...

859. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 10:48:36 AM

However, to smear Democrats--and Republicans--who have legitimate questions (that are as yet unanswered) about the Bush administration's rush to war by using the ravings of Cynthia McKinney is the sort of thing that can be expected those who blindly support this administration.

Obviously you don't even know what is being discussed. The Bush remark in question was not about the Iraq war but about the Homeland Security Bill.

860. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 10:50:34 AM

Oh please, to act shocked that ALL politicians politicize things most of the time is just disingenuous. That's what they DO.

You're a blathering idiot, Judy. Tom Daschle, doing his best Inspector Louis imitation, is the one who is "outraged, just outraged" that politicians are politicizing isses.

861. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 10:50:52 AM

issues.

862. Wombat - 9/26/2002 10:51:57 AM

Edmund:

Obviously I do read what is being discussed (see post 851). I was responding to your introduction of Cynthia McKinney into the discussion.

863. judithathome - 9/26/2002 10:58:57 AM

Yes, and Daschle was responding to Bush's attempts to politicize the issues. Why is it blathering when I point it out and genius when you do it?

864. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 11:03:43 AM

In that case, Wombat, you misunderstand my point in reproducing McKinney's remarks. It was not to imply that other Democrats think as she does, but as I said, to ask why didn't any other Democrats, including Daschle, denounce her politicization of the issue?

It's okay for her to imply that Bush and Republicans are motivated by oil and willing to get American soldiers killed for their greed, but not okay for Bush and Republicans to question the Senate's delays on the Homeland Security Bill as being motivated by their allegiance to organized labor.

865. Cellar Door - 9/26/2002 11:28:44 AM

"Obviously you don't even know what is being discussed. The Bush remark in question was not about the Iraq war but about the Homeland Security Bill."

Same difference.

"You're a blathering idiot, Judy. "

Nah. Too easy.

866. joezan - 9/26/2002 11:35:21 AM

ED is exactly right, of course.

Judy walks into political discussions with all the finesse of a bull in a china shop, argues previously well-defined points from a position uninformed by and uncaring for proper perspective, and then whines when called on it.

She's doing this more and more lately.

867. judithathome - 9/26/2002 11:47:47 AM

Fuck you.

868. Cellar Door - 9/26/2002 11:51:21 AM

Shocking photos of Judith cavorting with Saddam Hussein!

869. jexster - 9/26/2002 12:10:48 PM

870. Wombat - 9/26/2002 12:16:32 PM

As I recall, McKinney's remarks were disavowed by her Democratic colleagues. Next?

871. concerned - 9/26/2002 12:17:56 PM

But were they disavowed by McKinney? Nooooo.

872. concerned - 9/26/2002 12:20:27 PM

Re. 849 -

x42 never apologized for anything he did and you certainly didn't seem to mind.

Btw, regarding the Coulter link (click on image) above, I thought it was amusing that Coulter was saying about Democrats what they were saying about her recently.

873. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 12:35:47 PM

As I recall, McKinney's remarks were disavowed by her Democratic colleagues. Next?

Which colleagues? These remarks were made just last week, so you should be able to recall a name, if you don't have a link.

874. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 12:45:02 PM

Robert "White Nigger" Byrd eschews politicization of this war:

"This administration, all of a sudden, wants to go to
war with Iraq....The [political] polls are dropping, the
domestic situation has problems.... So all of a sudden we have this war talk, war fervor, the bugles of war, drums of war, clouds of war....I cannot believe the gall and the arrogance of the White House in requesting such a broad grant of war powers....This is the worst kind of election-year politics."

875. jexster - 9/26/2002 12:54:44 PM

We've never seen Tom Daschle mad.

No matter what the issue, the South Dakotan seems to muffle even his most partisan points in polite, oh-so-reasonable tones.

But he had smoke coming out of his ears yesterday.

The man went ballistic.

Waving a copy of The Washington Post, the majority leader accused George Bush of impugning the integrity of the Democrats over the war on terrorism.

"That is outrageous," he said, jabbing the air with his finger. Then, in a most un-Daschle-like shout, "Outrageous!"

Daschle whipped off his glasses and declared: "The president ought to apologize."

A front-page story had reported that Bush, on the campaign trail, charged that the Democratic-controlled Senate is "not interested in the security of the American people" – which does seem to go a bit over the rhetorical line.

The Daschle eruption has already been replayed on television hundreds of times.

"You tell those who fought in Vietnam and in World War II they are not interested in the security of the American people," Daschle said.

Politicians often use anger as a calculated weapon, but Daschle really looked furious.

And why not?

876. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 12:57:21 PM

Politicians often use anger as a calculated weapon.

You got that right, and gullible people fall for it.

877. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 12:57:57 PM

Toys.

Jasper left his vibrator out again.

878. Cellar Door - 9/26/2002 1:00:54 PM

Here "Edmund" -- you can have my vibrator.

879. jexster - 9/26/2002 1:17:45 PM

"You see, the Senate wants to take away some of the powers of the administrative branch."—Washington, D.C., Sept. 19, 2002

880. jexster - 9/26/2002 1:21:03 PM

My bitch don't need no vibrator.



Hello, my name is Ed

881. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 1:45:31 PM

Your bitch is a horse?

You wascally Jasper, you.

882. Cellar Door - 9/26/2002 1:48:49 PM

Al Gore invented horses.

883. jexster - 9/26/2002 2:16:27 PM

Yea you got a big dick and a fat ass Ed

884. jexster - 9/26/2002 2:20:51 PM

Flacid ass, flacid mind



"Chosen By God To Lead America"


Having received the green light from “above,” Christian George is about to unleash a holiness that just might Armageddon all of us

885. concerned - 9/26/2002 3:19:26 PM

Considering we have air superiority over most of Iraq without even thinking about it, how would that be?

886. jexster - 9/26/2002 3:32:19 PM

Charleston Gazette Online reports: "Long a student of the U.S. Constitution, Sen. Robert C. Byrd, D-WV, may be its most eloquent defender today. In his striving to prevent the Bush administration from seizing complete power, Byrd has become the foremost advocate of the checks-and-balances system between the three branches of government....'For all of their blustering about how al-Qaida is determined to strike at our freedoms, this administration shows little appreciation for the constitutional doctrines and processes that have preserved those freedoms for more than two centuries....I have not seen such executive arrogance and secrecy since the Nixon administration, and we all know what happened to that group,' Byrd said....'as the Constitution demands, it is the role of Congress to declare war. When the president is ready to present his case to Congress, I am ready to listen. But I am tired of trying to connect dots in the dark,' Byrd said."

887. jexster - 9/26/2002 3:33:21 PM

Considering we have air superiority over most of Iraq without even thinking about it, how would that be?

How could it be that Iraq is a threat to anything? Is that what you mean????

888. jexster - 9/26/2002 3:34:11 PM

That's the question that leads you straight to the answer.

889. jexster - 9/26/2002 3:36:34 PM

Ask the IDF how well they've been doing on the West Bank of the Jordan trying to pacify 5 million Ay-rabs for the past30 years or why they don't dare set foot in Gaza or how glorious their victory when they "won" the battle of Beruit.

Called critcal thinking TDaschole

890. jexster - 9/26/2002 3:38:06 PM

Or ask Hamid Karzai how safe he'd feel without US bodyguards or even with them, how safe he feels more than 30 miles outside of Kabul.

891. jexster - 9/26/2002 3:51:22 PM

This a Load of Nutin- Gutless Wonders

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -Congressional leaders proposed on Thursday a draft resolution that authorizes the use of military force against Iraq, if the White House determined further diplomatic efforts would not adequately protect the United States from threats posed by Baghdad.

The draft, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters, authorizes President Bush ( news - web sites) to use the armed forces "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to defend the national security interests of the United States against the threat posed by Iraq," and to enforce U.N. resolutions calling on Iraq to eliminate chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and end support for terrorism.

The draft calls on the president to report to Congress at least every 90 days on the Iraq situation, and narrows possible use of force specifically to Iraq, rather than to the region as a whole.

892. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 3:56:45 PM

Blast from the past #2:

In a news conference today, Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle (SD) opened by reading the names of victims of guns from a U.S. Conference of Mayors survey, "The Death Toll Since Columbine". The senator vowed to read names every day into the Congressional Record until the Senate takes action on gun safety legislation.

Source

893. jexster - 9/26/2002 4:10:09 PM

MIAMI (Reuters) - Gov. Jeb Bush's lead over his Democratic challenger shrank to just six percentage points with less than six weeks to go before Floridians choose their next governor, according to poll results published on Thursday.


Forty-nine percent of respondents said they would vote to reelect Bush in the Nov. 5 election, while 43 percent favored Bill McBride, the Tampa lawyer who narrowly defeated former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno ( news -web sites) in a Sept. 10 Democratic primary marred by voting problems. Seven percent were undecided.

The Mason-Dixon Florida Poll was conducted via telephone interviews with 625 registered voters from Sept. 22 to 24 and had an error margin of 4 percentage points. It was conducted for several Florida newspapers and broadcasters.


Florida to attack Bahamas on Monday.....

894. concerned - 9/26/2002 4:47:23 PM

Politicians often use anger as a calculated weapon, but Daschle really looked furious.

Daschole always looks more than half deranged, anyway, so I figure pitching a hissy fit at a moment's notice is no problem for him.

895. concerned - 9/26/2002 4:48:26 PM

The politicized marketing of war is the subject Daschle most abhors.

Not at all. It's envy.

896. thoughtful - 9/26/2002 4:49:49 PM

Of course, there is the flipside...perhaps the administration is the one who doesn't care about the security of this nation...otherwise why don't they give in on their special interest anti-union political stance so the bill can pass.

897. concerned - 9/26/2002 5:01:15 PM

To hurt the Republicans before the midterm elections, I think the 'Rats should trot out Child Molester Flynt again with his sack of smut and scandal. After all, look how much fun they were having with Flynt jacking the House Leadership around just a few years ago.

898. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 5:06:55 PM

For once "Thoughtful" has made a legitimate, reasonable point and counter argument.

The problem for Daschle, however, is that if he makes that argument he'll lose. It's much easier for Bush to argue that his position is based on national security and the Democratic position is not.

Daschle has to argue from the same position Democrats have to for issues like civil liberties versus search warrants: that there are things equally as important as security. For most Americans, though, collective bargaining just isn't as fundamental an issue as privacy.

So Daschle was in a tough spot and made a gutsy if cynical move by accusing Bush of politicizing politics.

899. concerned - 9/26/2002 5:12:40 PM

'gutsy' doesn't quite describe Daschole's behavior here. Try 'nonsensical' and 'counterproductive'.

900. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 5:14:24 PM

The real reasons Daschle made the speech--and don't let his "genuine" anger fool you--was 1) because Democrats thought he was letting Bush steal the store and maybe the upcoming election; 2) Gore had come out hard (albeit clumsily) against Bush, which meant Daschle had to do something to reestablish his own claims.

This was a pretty good way of counter-attacking and putting the Republicans on the defensive while keeping his personal position "moderate." He pleases the Democrats because he's fighting Bush, but he doesn't hurt his own "get tough with Saddam" credentials.

901. Edmund Dantes - 9/26/2002 5:15:31 PM

Best of all, by accusing the Republicans, his own politicizing of the issue will get some protection. He can now say, "They did it first."

902. concerned - 9/26/2002 5:18:03 PM

I just loved the tripe that Bore came up with. He's got the unique gift of making the preposterous appear merely disingenuous.

903. concerned - 9/26/2002 6:29:40 PM

Who said the following:

"Look, we have exhausted, virtually, our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that, what other option is there but to force them to do so?"

904. concerned - 9/26/2002 6:33:31 PM

a) George W. Bush
b) George H. W. Bush
c) Little Tommy Daschole

?

905. concerned - 9/26/2002 6:45:46 PM

Illinois Democrat Rep. says ok for KKK 'Rats to serve in Congress

906. concerned - 9/26/2002 6:59:19 PM

Hitchens Quits Nation; Says It's "False to Continue the Association"

Excerpted:

In an online interview last year with The Pittsburgh Tribune Review, he (Hitchens) suggested that the magazine had lost its way and had become, like other institutions on the left, "complete lying servants of power without turning a hair."

Former Hitchens' close friend Alexander Cockburn was not sorry to see him go.

"I think it was becoming increasingly bizarre for the Nation to publish his column. But people only very slowly take in these changes, much like Dorian Gray changes slowly in front of you. Hitch is no longer the beautiful slender young man of the Left. Now he's just another middle-aged porker of the Right."

Verrry philosophical. Guess you have to be beautiful and slender to be a real Leftist.

907. Cellar Door - 9/26/2002 7:02:33 PM

It helps!

908. judithathome - 9/26/2002 7:16:25 PM

Bush's little hand picked Governor has really taken care of Texas homeowners...he is advising people with Farmer's insurance (which is the second largest company in Texas and leaving the state) to go to a website that gives assistance to the hapless Farmer's customers. Only problem with that is two of the companys listed only insure mobile homes and the other one has quit the business altogether. The other two major companys in Texas are refusing to take new customers.

I know there must be some way for Governort Perry to blame all this on his opponent Tony Sanchez but so far, the best he can do in ads is accuse Tony of other misdeeds. Sort of like his Attorney Gerneral who is running for the senate against the former mayor of Dallas...John Cornyn has ads which say "Hillary Clinton: working hard for Ron Kirk" like that is a far worse thing for the citizens of Texas than having a governor who makes a political issue out of one insurance company and effectivly runs it out of the state, leaving Texans up the creek.

Yeah, Republicans really feel your pain.

909. Cellar Door - 9/26/2002 9:04:13 PM

Thank you once again, Mr. President!

910. concerned - 9/27/2002 12:11:55 PM

911. judithathome - 9/27/2002 12:14:14 PM

Bush just said of Saddam "He's the guy who tried to kill my dad." Nothing personal, though.

912. joezan - 9/27/2002 12:15:48 PM

No - that can't be a real picture. If it is, Daschle is a total retard.

913. joezan - 9/27/2002 12:17:15 PM

GHWB is not my dad, but I take the assassination attempt very personally - as should any American who loves this country.

914. judithathome - 9/27/2002 12:23:40 PM

And I guess only those of you who want to bankrupt this country with a war love it, right?

915. concerned - 9/27/2002 12:26:11 PM

'Bankrupt' a country with a war? How the h-e double hockeysticks can one go about doing that?

916. concerned - 9/27/2002 12:29:09 PM

Did Roosevelt bankrupt the US with WWII? Did LBJ bankrupt the US with Vietnam? Did Truman bankrupt the US with Korea?

There are good reasons to criticize certain aspects of US involvement in these wars, but not in the area of depressing the economy. Plus, all these were far, far larger operations than anything envisaged for Iraq, of course.

917. Cellar Door - 9/27/2002 12:31:20 PM

Hey, pal -- feelin' blue?

Don't know what to do?

Hey, pal --

I mean you --

Yeah.

C'mere and kill a president.

No job? Cupbord bare?

One room, no one there?

Hey, pal don't despair --

You wanna shoot a president?

C'mon and shoot a president.

Some guys

Think they can be winners

First prize

Often goes to rank beginners

Hey kid, failed your test?

Dream girl, unimpressed?

Sho her you're the best

If you can shoot a president

918. Cellar Door - 9/27/2002 12:33:44 PM

You can get the prize

With the big blue eyes.

Skinny little thighs

And those big blue eyes.

Everybody's

Got the right

To be happy.

Don't stay mad

Life's not as bad

As it seems.

If you keep your goal in sight

You can climb to any height.

Everybody's got the right

to their dreams.. ."

919. judithathome - 9/27/2002 12:34:09 PM

Oh okay, I hadn't realized this was all a plan to revitalize the sagging economy. Well, good, then...I'm convinced! Let's take him out!

But will you tell me where the money will come from when we go in and rebuild Iraq? I guess after we get our hands on all that oil, it will be a moot point, though, so never mind.

920. joezan - 9/27/2002 12:34:18 PM

Wow...

Deep.

921. concerned - 9/27/2002 12:34:42 PM

Re. 917 -

That'd be real good. If the assassin were linked to the Mideast, the US would be running the place in no time flat.

922. judithathome - 9/27/2002 12:37:10 PM

Plus, all these were far, far larger operations than anything envisaged for Iraq, of course

And of course, Viet Nam was far worse and more costly that ever "envisaged" but this one won't be. They know that for a fact, right?

923. Cellar Door - 9/27/2002 12:37:11 PM

It's Sondheim, joe.
It's the opening number from Assassins, originally sung by Victor Garber

924. joezan - 9/27/2002 12:39:07 PM

Again - any comparison to VietNam is idiotic.

925. concerned - 9/27/2002 12:39:38 PM

Re. 922 -

Yeppers, JAH. Now, don't you go fretting yourself about that. Our military involvement in Iraq will be over almost before you can bat yer purty li'l eyelashes.