That reminded me of what I was thinking of earlier this morning...When does it officially become a hostage situation as opposed to diplomatic wrangling?
15145. labwabbit - 4/10/2001 5:19:14 PM
China has been well documented as selling/buying military equipment and technology with Iran. Perhaps Iran has given them an "inside" technique for how to bring a democracy to shame and capitulation using a minimum amount of ... leverage.
15146. jexster - 4/10/2001 5:50:48 PM
The Senate needs to leave enough money in the proposed budget to not only reduce all marginal rates, but to eliminate the death tax, so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next, regardless of a person's race."--Washington, D.C., April 5, 2001
"Most of you probably didn't know that I have a new book out. Some guy put together a collection of my wit and wisdom--or, as he calls it, my accidental wit and wisdom. [Laughter.] But I'm kind of proud that my words are already in book form."--Radio-Television Correspondents Association dinner, Washington, D.C., March 29, 2001
15147. bbb - 4/10/2001 5:56:37 PM
Notice most of our EP-3 crew's questions to the visiting General Sealock have been the sport news about Tiger Woods,Aikman,and the possible return of Michael Jordan to NBA.
At least,it seems that they are well-fed enough to NOT losing interests in sports.
15148. labwabbit - 4/10/2001 5:58:28 PM
...perhaps they should be more interested in the health and events of Chinese atheletes. At least know some of their names. Ha.
15149. bbb - 4/10/2001 6:10:14 PM
The BEST/STRONGEST argument for the immediate release our EP-3 crew to the Chinese is releated to the keyword "apology".
Colin Powell can tell the Chinese that we are ready and willing to apologize ONLY IF we have the chance to fully debrief our crew in the U.S. soil AND to determine if it were actually the fault of our pilot who caused the collision accident.
Look,how can we apologize to you if we don't get our crew back FIRST to have a chance to debrief them? Do you want an apology? Return our crew back to us immediately! We just can NOT make any apology to you,even if we want to,WITHOUT our crew be released back FIRST.
15150. DaveM - 4/10/2001 6:39:05 PM
1. Re: JJ's Message # 15128, and the idea that Bush and his administration's reticence to face the camera is a wise avoidance of "window dressing."
Executive branch transparency is necessary for accountability. If the American citizenry can't tell who is orchestrating the negotiations with the Chinese over hostage release, we can't know who to blame for the fuck ups. It might be "manly" to not care about informing the public, but it isn't very democratic.
2. Re: Ronski/JJ's assertion that "it is considered a virtue to take what is not yours and it is evil to try to keep what you have earned."
The other side is obviously: the American economic system doesn't reward people directly in accordance with their contribution to society. There is a lot of play in the system. People don't "earn" everything they take home. Especially, for instance, inheritances, which the recipient hasn't really done shit to "earn."
15151. labwabbit - 4/10/2001 6:39:47 PM
The BEST/STRONGEST argument for the immediate release our EP-3 crew to the Chinese is releated to the keyword "apology".
I disagree bbb. It is very much a "feeling out process" by the Chinese to determine just what gambit has been achieved toward obtaining their goals of preventing modern technological equipment from reaching Taiwan from the US. But, the one true thing that has been said between governments is "the longer this goes on the better the chance of severely damaging diplomatic relations. In other words, when does it stop being an investigative process and cross the line to becoming a hostage crisis?
15152. ycmeehan - 4/10/2001 7:08:00 PM
Message # 15138
The statistics in respect to the redistribution of wealth in the US are clear. The top 5% of the population gain an increasing percentage of the national wealth almost every year. I believe this trend has been in place for a considerable time.
I cannot believe that anyone considers this to be good for a democratic society. In effect, the results of this trend is that the US is becoming more like the banana republics of South-America some years back where 5% of he population owned or controlled 95% of the wealth. They have made significant progress in the last twenty-five years during which period the concentration in the US has continued unabated.
This tax-bill is the most flagrant attempt to redistribute the wealth of this country from the bottom upward. It should be condemned by all segments of this society. It establishes an hereditary elitist class and affects the mobility within same. The only groups that can possibly gain from this redistribution are the neo-fascist elements in our society who are financed by misguided elements within established wealth.
By the way, I am an independent and voted for Reagan and Bush elder, once for Clinton. However, since we differ so much on this issue, I'll leave it alone.
15153. jexster - 4/10/2001 7:15:22 PM
DENVER, April 9 — As California and other Western states gird for a summer of energy shortages and rising electricity costs, the chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission said today that the Bush administration would do everything possible to ease the problem — except give California what it wants most: price caps on wholesale fuel costs.
Because What Ken Lay Wants, Monkey Boy Gives
15154. Cellar Door - 4/10/2001 7:41:10 PM
Don't leave it alone, yc!!!
15155. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 7:52:01 PM
yc, As you may know, Ronski is a libertarian, as is stumbo. You may as well argue with a stump.
15156. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 8:32:03 PM
No, you heard the lady, Wonk. Don't you trust her to know a neo-fascist when she sees one?
15157. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 8:32:46 PM
(Or two, for that matter)
15158. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 8:49:27 PM
Stumbo, ??? Sorry, I don't follow you. Please draw me a picture. Excuse me if you aren't a libertarian. Somehow I got that impression. I wasn't intending to insult you or Ronski, for that matter. It's just that I find arguing with a libertarian, for example, on the merits of the federal budget to be a waste of time for both of us. Sort of like arguing abortion with the Pope.
15159. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 9:05:24 PM
Wonk:
I was referring to the last sentence in the 3rd paragraph of YCM's post.
(My views are indeed fairly libertarian-ish; and no, I didn't interpret what you had written as necessarily meant to insult.)
15160. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 9:07:11 PM
But isn't that what we're all here for -- to waste time in pointless arguments?
15161. jexster - 4/10/2001 9:25:03 PM
California will spend $65 Billion on electricity this year ten times what the state spent just 2 years ago.
Price gouging????
Sen. Larry Craig (R- Idaho) thinks so. Sen. Craig joined a deafening chorus of requests from Western States that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission do its job and regulate but the silence from the Bumbling Bushies was just as deafening for as we all know.....
Whatever Ken Lay Wants...the Chimp-in-Chief Provides!
15162. jexster - 4/10/2001 9:27:27 PM
Now if OPEC engaged in the same behavior - 1,000% price increase - what would happen?
Probably nothing come to think of it. Because Bush's Erl 'n Gas buddies in Bugtussle, Texas would make a killin!
15163. JJBiener - 4/10/2001 9:45:47 PM
DaveM - Executive branch transparency is necessary for accountability.
When you play poker, do you play with your hand open while your opponents keep their cards close to their chest? There is plenty of time for accountability. Now is not the time.
The other side is obviously: the American economic system doesn't reward people directly in accordance with their contribution to society.
No, it doesn't and it shouldn't. The economic system rewards people in accordance with their contribution to the people who pay them. Society doesn't pay them
People don't "earn" everything they take home.
They do or they don't get paid. Whether you think they earn it or not is irrelevant. They aren't getting paid with your money.
Especially, for instance, inheritances, which the recipient hasn't really done shit to "earn."
To the person who owned the money before he died believed the recipient deserved the money. Whether you agree with his opinion is irrelevant because once again it isn't your money.
15164. JJBiener - 4/10/2001 9:55:42 PM
YC - The top 5% of the population gain an increasing percentage of the national wealth almost every year.
The national wealth is not a fixed sum. The top 5% produces an increasing share of the increasing national wealth. That is how they got to the top 5% to begin with.
I cannot believe that anyone considers this to be good for a democratic society.
The distribution of wealth has nothing to do with the health of the democracy. It isn't for the Democratic society, but that is something entirely different.
This tax-bill is the most flagrant attempt to redistribute the wealth of this country from the bottom upward.
This is pure nonsense. Either you don't understand the tax bill or you don't understand what it mean to redistribute wealth. In either case you are completely mistaken.
The only groups that can possibly gain from this redistribution are the neo-fascist elements in our society who are financed by misguided elements within established wealth.
You really are a nice woman but you need to be more selective in your reading materials. Repeating this nonsense just makes you look silly.
15165. JJBiener - 4/10/2001 10:01:12 PM
YC - Equity simply means fairness, no more no less.
I don't think it is fair for the government to take money from people who work to give to those who refuse to work. Do you?
If there is any redistribution of wealth in this bill, it is a redistribution from the bottom to the top and you know it and if you don't know it, you should know it
Since there is no redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top in this bill, I don't think you should be lecturing others.
15166. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 10:51:36 PM
JJ, I think you had better look closer at the details of the bill. Taking the starting point as the present, if the President's approach were followed, the result would be redistributing income from the poor or lower income groups to the highest and higher income groups. Fortunately, it doesn't look as if the ultimate bill will be as extreme as Bush is proposing.
15167. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 11:01:34 PM
Welfare, social security, medicare and other forms of social insurance are not taking money from people who work and giving it to those who don't any more than any other insurance is doing so. Lot's of people buy life insurance. Some drop dead the next day and others live until they are 90. The ones who live until they are 90 pay for the benefits that go to those who die prematurely.
The only difference is that one is private insurance and the other is required by the government so that we aren't like Bangladesh where we have to walk around sick and old and crazy people and children begging on the sidewalks. Having a reasonable safety net is what keeps a free enterprise system like ours from self-destructing.
15168. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 11:18:48 PM
Wonk:
"Taking the starting point as the present..."
The starting point is 12:00:01 A.M. on Jan. 1, when Peter and Paul each have earnings of $0. If, by 11:59:59 on Dec. 31, Peter has earned more money than Paul, and you take some money from the former and give it to the latter -- then we all know in which direction you're redistributing.
The "well, we took $X from Peter last year, so surely we're entitled to take at least as much from him this year" argument is a moral non-starter. If Peter worked all year to earn this brand new amount of money, the least you can do is come up with a brand new argument to justify taking it. In other words, you have to start from scratch, just like he did, and not from a guaranteed baseline.
15169. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 11:21:14 PM
Under Bush's plan we will be taking less from Peter.
15170. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 11:26:04 PM
"Lots of people buy life insurance. [...] The only difference is that one is private insurance and the other is required by the government..."
Heh. I do hate to go libertarian on your ass, Wonk, but how would you react if someone applied the "some people do A voluntarily, therefore it's OK for the government to require all people to do A" line of reasoning to, I dunno, say, religion?
15171. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 11:29:31 PM
I wouldn't like it. And it would be unconstitutional. Social insurance was declared constitutional after a bit of kicking and screaming by Corporate America and the filling of a few vacancies on the the Supreme Court.
15172. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 11:30:52 PM
#15169: The operative word being "from."
15173. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 11:32:39 PM
It's all quite legal and proper and democratic, small d.
15174. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 11:36:19 PM
I trust you are a believer in the democratic process, even though you don't like the results.
15175. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 11:37:00 PM
The point isn't whether you would personally like that particular application of this argument or not, nor whether that application is (judged to be) constitutional or not.
The point is that the argument itself is clearly wrong, and that therefore you shouldn't be using it.
15176. wonkers2 - 4/10/2001 11:42:02 PM
Are we arguing about the amount or the principle? [Like the woman who said she'd go to bed with a man for $1 million, but not for $10 which would make her a whore.]
15177. Stumbo - 4/10/2001 11:47:29 PM
Um, which particular principle? We've mentioned several, here.
15178. CalGal - 4/11/2001 12:07:59 AM
Samuelson piece on CFR
First, campaigns are supposedly too expensive. Are they? In 2000, all spending for Congress and the White House (including money spent by nonparty advocacy groups) approached $3 billion, estimates Michael Malbin of the Campaign Finance Institute. Perhaps another $1 billion was spent on state and local elections. In a $10 trillion economy, the $4 billion is not 1 percent of national income ($100 billion) or even one-tenth of 1 percent ($10 billion). It's four one-hundredths of 1 percent. In 2000, about 105 million people voted. This works out to about $38 a vote. It's not exorbitant.
Next, we're told that the rich run Washington through campaign money. Well, if they do, they're fairly inept. In 2001 the wealthiest 10 percent of Americans will pay 52 percent of federal taxes, estimates the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation. Meanwhile, federal programs benefit mainly the middle class and the poor. In 2000 the government spent about $400 billion on Social Security, $300 billion on Medicare and Medicaid and about $105 billion on "means-tested" programs for the poor (food stamps, child nutrition). Similarly, most environmental and health regulations impose restrictions on business.
I'm not particularly concerned about CFR because I can't see it working. The money will find a way to be spent as long as TV is out there--if you want to fix the problem, reduce TV costs. But it's interesting to think we're only spending 38/vote. The Japanese get much more for their vote, if PE is right (see International).
15179. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:09:30 AM
wonkers - Taking the starting point as the present, if the President's approach were followed, the result would be redistributing income from the poor or lower income groups to the highest and higher income groups.
This is bullshit, Wonk. In order for wealth to be redistributed, it has to be taken from one group and given to another. There is nothing in the tax bill that takes money from lower income groups and gives it to higher income groups. From your "Taking the starting point as the present" I am pretty sure you are going to launch into same kind bullshit argument that Cal has been giving me in Health. It is bullshit when she does it, and it is bullshit when you do it. I am not buying into that crap.
15180. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:13:18 AM
Wonk - [Like the woman who said she'd go to bed with a man for $1 million, but not for $10 which would make her a whore.]
I believe the punch line was, "We've established what you are. Now we are just negotiating on price."
15181. CalGal - 4/11/2001 12:15:00 AM
There is nothing in the tax bill that takes money from lower income groups and gives it to higher income groups.
True. The money is largely taken from the rich and distributed to, well, you, not to put too fine a point on it. And everyone making less than you, too.
However, within the middle class and slightly above, there is no question that some get more money from the rich than others.
15182. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:21:43 AM
Cal - I pay taxes. I don't receive payments from the government. Once you get this simple fact through your head, we might be able to have a conversation on this subject. As long as you persist in your delusion that government is subsidizing me with my own income, I don't see how we can have a meaningful dialogue.
15183. CalGal - 4/11/2001 12:31:54 AM
I don't receive payments from the government.
No--I meant "distributed to" in a variety of ways. It's certainly true that the cost of government is borne disproportionately by the rich and that almost no one making less than about $100K with a family is paying their portion of the government costs.
The fact that some people get literal checks and others get figurative ones--and still others just get schools, roads, and the likes for a lot less than what they cost--is not all that big a difference.
I certainly agree that you give more than the welfare mom to the government. But it's entirely possible you get more, too--and that you get disproportionately more than others of your income, for no particularly compelling reason.
All of the middle class gets a great deal from the government. There are more of them to bitch and moan if they're not happy.
15184. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:43:59 AM
Cal - It's certainly true that the cost of government is borne disproportionately by the rich and that almost no one making less than about $100K with a family is paying their portion of the government costs.
It is not certainly true. This is just another of your pet beliefs. In any case it doesn't apply to me.
But it's entirely possible you get more, too
Really? If we made the assumption that everyone benefited equally from government spending, that would mean that each person gets roughly $6600 in government services. With three people in my family that would come to $19,800. Our federal tax bill was more than this. As I said before, we pay more than enough to keep a family of four above the poverty line and plenty left over.
Now if figure in the fact that there are huge government programs I do not benefit from, it is clear that I am paying far more than I get in benefits.
All of the middle class gets a great deal from the government.
There may be some who get a great deal, but there are many more who are getting it in ass and they don't even realize it.
15185. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:46:40 AM
Wonkers - It's all quite legal and proper and democratic, small d.
So were the Nuremburg laws and Segregation. That doesn't make them right. It does however make them Democratic, big D.
15186. joezan - 4/11/2001 12:53:04 AM
Can this guy get a gig anywhere (outside of China)? 
Did Stanford dump Bill and Hillary?
15187. CalGal - 4/11/2001 12:55:11 AM
It is not certainly true. This is just another of your pet beliefs. In any case it doesn't apply to me.
Sure it's true. The last time Rask did the number, it was around $9k, not 6600. Also, I don't know how much your family income is, but if it isn't over $100K, it's pretty close. So if it doesn't apply to you personally, it's probably because your income is over my starting point.
If you pay much more than that, then you get to start figuring how many other people you're paying for.
There are two different issues: whether or not one pays their way, and whether or not one benefits disproportionately in comparison to others in similar income brackets. My comment about you was based on the latter. Even if you "pay your way", you are getting more income through expenditures and other subsidies than others in your income bracket. That's the point I was making.
There may be some who get a great deal, but there are many more who are getting it in ass and they don't even realize it.
Not true. Your income puts you in the top 5-10% (hence my use of middle class and slightly upwards of it). "Middle class" is that amount or less, and under any circumstances the middle class is not taking it up the ass. They pay nothing approaching the cost they represent.
15188. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 1:53:16 AM
CalGal - The last time Rask did the number, it was around $9k, not 6600.
I am not sure what numbers Rask was using. The budget is about $1.9 trillion. Their are about 285 million people according to the 2000 census. Grab a calculator or Excel and do the math.
whether or not one pays their way, and whether or not one benefits disproportionately in comparison to others in similar income brackets.
Yes I do pay my way and then some, and no, I do not benefit from the government disproportionately compared to others in my income bracket.
Even if you "pay your way", you are getting more income through expenditures and other subsidies than others in your income bracket.
Even using your perverse definition of expentitures they are no different from others in my income bracket. Your comments have no basis in fact or reason. Until you can deal with this subject honestly, I see no point in continuing. Be warned that I will expose your dishonesty on this subject every time you post on it.
15189. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 7:39:24 AM
It's not an easy exercise to try to place a monetary benefit on all government work to determine who gets the most back for their tax dollar. You could argue that middle and upper class get more from police and military protection than do the poor. Grocers derive benefits from the foodstamp program as do those receiving the stamps. Doctors benefit from Medicare and medicaid --not just the elderly and impoverished. Who gets the most from the air traffic control system -- the impoverished or the well-to-do.
It's easy to say that you don't derive any benefit from government services if you're only counting direct transfer payments.
15190. wonkers2 - 4/11/2001 8:07:52 AM
JJ "I pay taxes but I don't receive benefits from the government."
Do you drive on roads, fly on planes, feel more secure because of the U.S. Army, etc., do you have a child in public school, check the weather occasionally, expect to draw Social Security or Medicare benefits, etc.?
15191. wonkers2 - 4/11/2001 8:11:48 AM
stumbo,"Which principle?
The principle that government serves a necessary and useful purpose(s). And we are only arguing over which services and laws are necessary and useful.
15192. Indiana Jones - 4/11/2001 8:18:00 AM
Wonkers: Unless you're quoting a post further upthread or I've overlooked it, what JJ said was, "I pay taxes. I don't receive payments from the government."
"Payments"--not "benefits."
He also said, "I am paying far more than I get in benefits," and "I do not benefit from the government disproportionately compared to others in my income bracket."
So I don't think you should really "quote" him as saying, "I don't receive benefits from the government."
15193. wonkers2 - 4/11/2001 8:18:52 AM
JJ, you are quibbling. Under Bush the rich will have more disposable income and the poor and all Americans will lose services and benefits.
15194. Indiana Jones - 4/11/2001 8:22:21 AM
The poor and all Americans will lose services and benefits.
How is this so if the tax refund comes out a surplus? Also, are you saying Bush's first budget will be less than Clinton's last?
15195. JudithAtHome - 4/11/2001 8:28:38 AM
So I guess Bush got our people back with his letter, huh? Good for him...
15196. Dusty - 4/11/2001 8:37:41 AM
wonkers2 Message # 15190
That was sleazy.
15197. Dusty - 4/11/2001 8:39:27 AM
wonkers2
Under Bush the rich will have more disposable income and the poor and all Americans will lose services and benefits.
Even if true, you haven't explained why it would be unfair.
15198. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 8:49:23 AM
How is this so if the tax refund comes out a surplus?
Ha! Famous last words. Asshole Virginia Governor Gilmore's car tax relief was supposed to come out of the state's "surplus". What happened when the surplus didn't materialize in the out years as Rosy Scenario had promised? The car tax relief is now being taken our of my COLA, my health insurance, my retirement fund, diverted from federal TANF funds, taken away from services to individuals in state mental hospitals, reduced funding to schools and colleges and a host of other sources.
15199. MsIvoryTower - 4/11/2001 9:15:04 AM
Dusty,
I don't understand why you think Wonkers Message # 15190 is sleazy. The only thing slightly off is that public school expenditures are mostly paid for at the state or local level, the rest mainly come out of federal tax dollars.
I'd also add other items that are of the greatest benefit to the middle and upper classes, like regulatory activities monitoring securities, banking and the Federal Reserve System. Then there are all those diplomatic and trade agreements that allow the predominately upper classes to engage in capitalistic activities in other countries, and to allow other countries to do the same.
15200. MsIvoryTower - 4/11/2001 9:18:06 AM
Then, of course, there are the billions of federal dollars spent on R&D in medicine, science and technology, all of which becomes available to businesses for little or no direct cost, and which has provided a source of ever expanding economic growth for the (already) privileged.
15201. Dusty - 4/11/2001 9:22:58 AM
MsIvoryTower
Dusty,
I don't understand why you think Wonkers Message # 15190 is sleazy.
Putting a statement in quotes that he did not say is sleazy.
15202. MsIvoryTower - 4/11/2001 9:29:53 AM
Ah, I see, JJ said he doesn't receive payments from the government, not benefits, at least in that statement. Later on he denied he received as much in benefits as he paid in taxes.
15203. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 9:30:39 AM
What a difference a week to 10 days makes.
Since 1 April, Curious George has maintained we have nothing to apologize for regarding the P-3 incident.
Yesterday, Curious George had a change of heart (he likes that word). He found plenty to apologize for.
What changed?
What changed were the polls.
While Curious George watched his poll numbers go into a downward spiral, our P-3 crewmen were taking a bit of forced R&R, courtesy of Curious George's insecurities.
It only took Curious George almost two weeks to do what he should have done in the first day or two.
I don't wish to repeat Curious George's mistake; therefore, on behalf of the US, I apologize for this president*.
15204. Dusty - 4/11/2001 9:32:19 AM
MsIvoryTower
If JJ had said that he received no benefits from the Federal government, I'd disagree with him also. He (and I) receive many benefits from the federal government. You've identified some of them. I basically agree with everything on your list.
I'm happy to be able to say that government benefits accrue to me more than the average person. But I also pay far more. Perhaps I'm more attuned to it at the moment because I just paid more in one day in taxes than the average family "owes" for a year (based upon JJ's 1.9 trillion, population of 285 million).
Under a tax system I would consider fair, I would pay more than the average person. Far more. I'm in favor of a system that has a progressive structure. But I still think I pay too much.
15205. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 9:35:55 AM
By the by, notice how muted Curious George's announcement of the return of the P-3 aircrew was?
Aside from the obvious embarassment of apologizing after repeatedly maintaining we never would, there are other factors at play.
Buzz in DC says Curious George made some not insignificant concessions to China.
15206. rubberducky - 4/11/2001 9:39:04 AM
who here honestly thinks they don't pay 'too much' in taxes (state, fed, local, luxery, sales, etc)?
15207. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 9:43:44 AM
I don't necessarily think that I pay "too much" in taxes. I might take issue with spending in certain categories, but so might others take issue with the areas I think should be funded.
15208. MsIvoryTower - 4/11/2001 9:45:01 AM
Dusty
I generally remember that JJ believes he doesn't receive much in the way of benefits, that he pays far more than he receives. I think this is simply wrong. The progressive tax structure pretty accurately captures ability to pay with benefits received. I think a strong argument can be made that the wealthiest receive the most in benefits, because otherwise they'd be spending all their time defending their property, their businesses and their wealth, which, they clearly do not.
In fact, one could argue that paying taxes by the wealthy is the cheapest way for them to go wrt protecting their economic and physical interests.
For the middle classes, the argument is a bit shakier, their benefit streams typically are indirect, and aren't as clear as are either the poor or the wealthy. That doesn't mean the total costs of the benefits they receive wouldn't be higher if they weren't subsidized by everyone else's taxes, I believe they would.
15209. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 9:45:12 AM
I don't. I get a good deal, RD. I'd even argue we're undertaxed.
I pay a ton of taxes. I also understand the services and benefits I receive enable me to derive an income which puts me into a high bracket.
If you own a Bentley, you should expect to pay more in insurance than if you own a Hyundai. FritoCheese is in the insurance business; he should understand this issue better.
15210. RosettaStone - 4/11/2001 9:45:28 AM
Bush gets our spys back and wins another one.
This time against the ChiComs. Is this guy a god, or what? Just in time for Easter.
Dusty: I was asked to email you. I don't think it went through. Email me directly at Ram3@georgetown.org.
We're leaving Saturday AM for a week vacation. In Williamsburg at the Fairfield resort. Be there, or be square.
15211. JudithAtHome - 4/11/2001 9:49:38 AM
Rosie:
You'd die if we all showed up demanding introductions to your wife...
15212. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 9:52:29 AM
So much for the two week hiatus we were promised.
15213. rubberducky - 4/11/2001 9:55:03 AM
i dunno. i still think that all of you who say you don't think you are being overtaxed simply aren't fully aware of all the taxes currently being paid by you and yours. overtly and covertly. think about all the layers of tax you pay just to buy ordinary items at the store for example. this is not even bringing into account the sales tax on top of it. think how much cheaper things would be if not for taxes upon taxes levied on everything at all points in the supply chain.
Jade: undertaxed?? as a young, single, white, non-spawned male i say to hell with that.
15214. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 10:00:20 AM
Jade
It seems that the apology, extended after 10 days, is exactly what you were prescribing the second the incident occurred. Your position was as foolish as those who were screaming to treat China like Iran, replete with yellow ribbons. Or those who wanted to establish a commission, complete with Kofi Annan at the Hyatt. Thankfully, cooler, more intelligent and less hackacious heads prevailed.
But no matter whose policy was followed, from Jade's "Who cares what happened? Damn the facts! Apologize! We velly, velly sorry!" to The Weekly Standard's "Hostage crisis - day 7! We must fight China on the shores, the mainland, the beaches . . . they won't respect us!" to whoever suggested the cockamamie commission, two things have been established. First, our personnel were destined to spend a little extra time with the Chinese no matter the early policy - that's what happens when you bomb an embassy and a surveillance plane gets knocked down. Some folks want to make you squirm. Second, the country has reached a certain status with regard to foreign affairs that is both discomfiting and heartening.
While the level of sophistication is high (most people thought China was being unscrupulous), they simultaneously so over-value the lives of American military personnel that there is little they won't do to save them. This is Bosnia and the three wandering serviceman all over again. We have reached such dizzying heights of power that we are incapable of suffering casualties abroad.
As for his concessions, I understand that Bush agreed to remove nuclear missiles from Turkey.
15215. CalGal - 4/11/2001 10:05:44 AM
Actually, I think all Americans get about the same amount in benefits from the government. It just differs in form. Certainly the rich pay far, far more than their direct cost to the government. I don't object to that, but it's silly to pretend it's not true. Everyone benefits from infrastructure, defense, public schools and the cops--even the poor.
Given that their benefits are about the same, I see no reason not to assume that everyone's cost to the government is about the same, even if it takes a different form.
So JJ's declaration that he doesn't benefit as much as he puts in is nonsense. Given the cost of government and the fact that the rich pay more, he is at best about breaking even.
I think the middleclass gets more direct and indirect entitlements than any other group.
15216. Dusty - 4/11/2001 10:07:17 AM
JadeGold1
If you own a Bentley, you should expect to pay more in insurance than if you own a Hyundai. FritoCheese[sic] is in the insurance business; he should understand this issue better.
In the insurance business, the cost of insurance (to a first order of approximation) is based upon the expected costs for the class. Insurance for a Bentley would cost more than for a Hyundai. Let's, for arguments sake, say that the average cost of insurance is $1000. The insurance industry might charge $500 for the Hyundai, $2500 for the Bentley. (there are more Hyundia's then Bentley's if you are wondering why those numbers don't seem to average to $1000.)
But if we followed the federal government approach to taxation, we would send a check for $400 to the Hyundai owner, and a bill for $10,000 to the Bentley owner.
The Bentley owner should pay more in insurance and taxes. No one disputes that. It is the magnitude of the differential that is in dispute.
15217. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:09:15 AM
apologize, British and Australian usually -ise verb to tell someone that you are sorry< i> for having done something that has caused them inconvenience or unhappiness
15218. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 10:09:34 AM
Perhaps we should shoot the Bentley owner, sell the vehicle, and distribute the funds to some, each according to their needs.
15219. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:09:53 AM
kowtow
15220. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 10:09:58 AM
toys
15221. rubberducky - 4/11/2001 10:10:12 AM
sigh
15222. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 10:12:05 AM
Jex...never could get my boys to put their toys away either.
15223. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:13:24 AM
I have to chuckle. China can do whatever it pleases because of the stake that US business has in trade with that country.
But when it comes to Cuba, a country with the GDP of Humble Texas, its demonstrations...the Ace of Spades has one of his psychotic episodes posting messages on the Mote at 3 am EDT....
15224. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:14:10 AM
I don't kowtow
15225. Dusty - 4/11/2001 10:14:27 AM
CalGal
Actually, I think all Americans get about the same amount in benefits from the government.
I've heard you say this before, but I thought it was just to provoke discussion. It is clearly untrue.
I derive far more in benefits than the average person for many of the functions of government. The police protect my property and my person. I won't get into the philosophical discussion of whether my person is worth more than anyone else's so let's call that even. But I do have more property than some people. So the protection of my property is worth more to me than to others. As a check, if police protection of private property were privatized, I'm sure I would pay more than someone with almost nothing.
Similarly, the national defense costs create more of a benefit. Defense protects both my person and my property, and the same argument holds.
When the Federal reserve is doing its job, it provides more benefits to me than to people with smaller 401k's.
I don't personally get much benefit from welfare programs, but I get indirect benefits, even if I think those programs are woefully mismanaged.
15226. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 10:17:56 AM
Jexster had Bush been less diplomatic
"That crazed Bush shit-eating PoooPStain has done It again, and now the fact That We have a No Good Thief in the WhiTE House means the Chinese own us. Poopstain."
Jexster now
"That kowtowing Bush shit-eating PoooPStain has done It again, and now the fact That We have a No Good Thief in the WhiTE House means the Chinese own us. Poopstain."
15227. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 10:21:55 AM
Niner:
I have explained this to you before. As a new parent, I'm used to having to repeat myself.
Indeed, Curious George should have apologized in the first days after the incident. The aircrew would have been home a week ago and damage to US/China relations would have been minimal.
Instead, Curious George put on his cowboy hat and boots and strutted like a peacock, making "tough guy" noises.
I can't address your friends at the Weekly Standard, they are fringe players who won't be content until every Godless heathen, everywhere, is brought under heel.
Ultimately, Curious George did what he had to do. He needlessly prolonged the incident and it will wind up costing the US more than if he had acted wisely to begin with.
15228. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:25:27 AM
Anaheim -- San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown brought down the house this weekend at the state Democratic convention with a sharp-tongued riff about George W. Bush.
Noting that the president recently said critics had "misunderestimated" him, Brown daadpanned: "They elected the symbol of ebonics to the presidency of this nation.
"There ain't no brother in Oakland, or anywhere else, that would run the phrase or mix up the words the way this cat does," said Brown, with his trademark Cheshire Cat look. "It raises serious questions about whether he's really white."
15229. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/11/2001 10:27:16 AM
15230. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:27:17 AM
I don't kowtow
15231. joezan - 4/11/2001 10:27:23 AM
Well, apparently GWB's letter contained language which appeases the commie Chinese.
But he did not apologize for the US plane's causing the collision, as China had demanded. Which means that China will not be able to use said apology as leverage in halting routine surveillance missions, or the various Taiwan issues, etc, etc.
AND, I can still get my kids some pretty nifty free toys, merely by ordering a Happy Meal.
Sounds like a victory to me.
Unfortunately, he has still not completely appeased the much more demanding Jade, though my sources tell me officials at the highest levels are, as I type, working with Chinese export officials to allow limited imports of Chinese crow, to be delivered monthly only to Jade's DC hovel.
15232. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:27:59 AM
ahh Wiz..kowtow
15233. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:29:22 AM
Elian Be Free!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15234. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:31:37 AM
Yes indeed Jade, the Chimp did what he had to do and what I said he would do in answer to Dusty's interrogatory last week
kowrow
15235. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 10:33:02 AM
jexster
He sure did kowrow.
jade
I'm impressed by your policy of ingratiating fealty and humility first, ask questions later.
15236. CalGal - 4/11/2001 10:35:17 AM
Dusty,
Infrastructure is infrastructure. The poor not only benefit from it indirectly (it hires them), they benefit from it directly, in that were there not people who did pay for it, they would never get it in the first place. And, because the infrastructure exists, it gives the poor far more of an opportunity to become rich as a result.
Then there is the fact that we are a very fluid society, in terms of income. A poor kid might grow up to be rich. But if the rich people hadn't paid for the infrastructure that kept the kid alive, and if he hadn't had access to the same infrastructure in order to go to school, grow his income, and so on, would he ever have been rich? You have to take the equation over a lifetime, not at any point in time.
The military argument in particular is extremely weak. (I know it didn't originate with you).
Taken as a whole, everyone benefits from the government equally. The differential, to the extent it exists, is in the hundreds of dollars, not thousands, once you spread it out over the wohle population.
15237. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/11/2001 10:36:58 AM
Money interests trump everything else with "number one son, BusherooJr.!"
15238. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 10:37:01 AM
"We have nothing to apologize for."
Guess that depends on the meaning of 'nothing,' huh, JZ?
We could have had the aircrew home over a week ago.
We're getting them home, shortly. We also made significant concessions. And US/China relations are damaged.
I don't think we can afford any more such "victories."
15239. joezan - 4/11/2001 10:42:04 AM
What "concessions"?
The Chinese received no new guarantees, and we will continue to fly surveillance missions. The Taiwan question is where it was before the incident. China's trade status is unchanged.
What are your "sources" down at the laundry telling you, Jade?
15240. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 10:43:51 AM
Jade's correct.
We had to throw in the military contract for berets AND ascots to the Chinese.
And isn't it worth a lost week of "Survivor" for our brave guys and gals to adopt, as policy, a "We so sorry, we really are, we're so sorry, oh, we are so so so sorry" even before we know what's up? My goodness. Had we simply rolled over properly without inquiry, these kids could have seen the Blockbuster Awards. As it was, they were "hostage" so long that Vince Gill had almost penned a tune.
The Chinese would sure have respected that and delivered our folks to us lickety-split. Because, as jade infers, by nature, the Chinese are rather stupid and they will take nothing else into consideration but a rapid, automatic apology. I can see the meeting:
Chinese 1: What do we do?
Chinese 2: Well, we must assess the situation?
Chinese 3: Just come in on fax. Bush apologizes.
Chinese 1: Send them back. Now. We must discuss this no further.
Chinese 2: I concur. American dog has apologized. We must move quickly. The canny curs!
15241. Dusty - 4/11/2001 10:49:59 AM
The Economist doesn't think the retuen could have been engineered quickly, but surely Jade knows better?
It was probably always expecting too much to think that the Chinese would do what Mr Bush asked and return immediately both the crew of 24 Americans and their aircraft, which had been forced to make an emergency landing on China’s Hainan island. Nothing in bureaucratic China, especially when it involves foreigners, gets sorted out quickly and, to be fair, it is hard to imagine the Americans sending back a spy plane by return had they been the recipients.
15242. MsIvoryTower - 4/11/2001 10:50:15 AM
Everyone benefits from infrastructure, defense, public schools and the cops--even the poor.
I think many of the poor would disagree with you. A strong case can be made that they benefit the least from our government and the economy it works so hard to maintain, regardless of the direct transfers they receive. Certainly a case can be made that their level of social services, police, education, medical, all pale in comparison to that provided to the middle and upper classes.
15243. MsIvoryTower - 4/11/2001 10:52:05 AM
And what Dusty said in Message # 15225
15244. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:52:27 AM
ah so Frances!
15245. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:58:16 AM
Meanwhile back at the Armadillo Ranch
Senate and Bush Budgets Differ By Hundreds of Billions
15246. ycmeehan - 4/11/2001 10:59:07 AM
In fact, one could argue that paying taxes by the wealthy is the cheapest way for them to go wrt protecting their economic and physical interests.
I agree with you.
I have read very interesting posts on this topic. I was challenged on the so-called social contract. For me the essence of the social contract is: The rich and powerful guarantee economic mobility within the society through an equitable system of taxation and safety nets. The underclass, in return, guarantees safety of property and person. If this social contract is abrogated, the whole structure of the society is fractured. Unfortunately, for the future of this country, elements within the present power structure are quite willing to take that risk. That is the tragedy of the Bush's administration
15247. jexster - 4/11/2001 11:00:38 AM
And What Ken Lay Wants, His Monkey Delivers
BOISE, Idaho--With a California-born electricity crisis spreading like a range fire throughout the West, there were signs of softening Tuesday in opposition to a federal cap on wholesale power prices.
A second member of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which has steadfastly opposed wholesale caps on electricity, said she might be willing to discuss a price ceiling--a significant breakthrough for California officials, who have been pleading for price caps for months. And regional officials from other Western states said they might support some short-term form of price controls.
Up to now, FERC Commissioner William Massey was the lone voice on the panel favoring wholesale price caps on electricity, which could rein in the runaway prices that have sent one California utility to Bankruptcy Court and put another on the brink.
FERC Chairman Curtis Hebert has staunchly opposed any form of price controls. But at a hearing before officials from across the West, Commissioner Linda K. Breathitt, a Democratic appointee to the panel, said she would be open to considering price caps.
15248. jexster - 4/11/2001 11:01:13 AM
15249. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 11:03:37 AM
"I think that for 10 days ... we have acted powerless, unduly passive and in the process I think we are emboldening the worst elements of the bureaucracy in Beijing while demoralizing our allies in Asia," he said.
Gary Bauer
15250. jexster - 4/11/2001 11:04:34 AM
And when the Division leading SF Giants return home to PacBell Park this week, Ken Lay is giving us Enron Pin Day!!!!
GO GIANTS!!!!!!!!!!
15251. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 11:05:51 AM
"We should, in my judgment, say we are sorry."
Jesse Jackson.
15252. rubberducky - 4/11/2001 11:11:05 AM
Fran:
what is your point?
equating Jade & Jex with Jackson & Bauer?
15253. ButterfieldSwire - 4/11/2001 11:11:40 AM
We should in my judgement say we are sorry for having voted for Bush. What an asshole.
15254. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 11:12:28 AM
Jexster is Bauer.
Jade is Jackson.
Bush is Baueckson.
15255. ycmeehan - 4/11/2001 11:13:09 AM
The reason the stock market goes up with Bush's failures and down with Bush's successes is because the majority of established wealth in this country is more interested in the protection of their assets than what they know to be only a temporary tax advantage. On the other hand, the nouveau rich who are still on the make will be found allied with the DeLay faction.
15256. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 11:22:12 AM
Lessons Learned:
There exists a huge split between the Pentagon and the State Department. Rumsfeld is itching for a return to the Cold War. Powell knew what had to be done but was too timid and primarily concerned with the reputation of Powell, Incorporated.
Not an aupicious beginning for Condi Rice. Oh, well. National Security isn't really her function; photo ops are.
Curious George demonstrated, again, that figureheads may suffice for American political theater. They are a detriment in foreign policy.
Power of the polls.
15257. CalGal - 4/11/2001 11:25:58 AM
Certainly a case can be made that their level of social services, police, education, medical, all pale in comparison to that provided to the middle and upper classes.
Several points. One, that's not anywhere near all the infrastructure--toss in transportation, utilities, tax collection and redistribution, communications and a host of other things I just haven't thought of yet.
Two, while the quality of those services is certainly less, I'm not sure the cost is less in all cases. But that's just a btw, since you've just singled out the services--that they don't benefit from equally.
A strong case can be made that they benefit the least from our government and the economy it works so hard to maintain, regardless of the direct transfers they receive.
But I think a much stronger case can be made that they benefit the most from our government. In many cases, the benefits are equal. In other cases, you can't only look at the money they get directly, but the money it takes to provide it. Administration costs alone boost the poor a long way up the government consumption chain.
Also, as I've said before, you have to look at it over a lifetime. Suppose a poor person becomes rich, or at least well off, which happens a fair amount even now. Do you look at the services he gets as a rich person and say he's not paying enough, or the services he got as a poor person and say he paid too much? Likewise, what about rich people who become poor in their old age?
If the government infrastructure supports such an evolution--which it clearly does--then I don't see how it can be argued that its costs and benefits aren't spread out evenly over the entire population. I think focusing on how much money the rich make from it or how much they would have to pay otherwise misses the point.
15258. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 11:26:08 AM
Lessons Learned:
There exists a huge split between the Pentagon and the State Department. Rumsfeld is itching for a return to the Cold War. Powell knew what had to be done but was too timid and primarily concerned with the reputation of Powell, Incorporated to apologize as soon as humanly possible for any and everything.
Not an aupicious beginning for Condi Rice. Oh, well. National Security isn't really her function; photo ops are. She's on E! next week. Victoria's Secret. Underwire thing. Not too shabby.
Curious George demonstrated, again, that figureheads may suffice for American political theater. They are a detriment in foreign policy. They rock for NASCAR. Chicks dig them.
Power tohe people.
15259. CalGal - 4/11/2001 11:28:05 AM
Besides, if there was no infrastructure and the rich had to pay for everything themselves, they'd be getting labor at dirt cheap rates, because the poor wouldn't have any other options at all and no government to make or enforce employment law. There would be no welfare, or anything else. So the rich would probably be paying a hell of a lot less for the construction of roads, the protection of property, and so on.
This is not to say that I think we should have a flat tax, or that the rich pay too much. It's just that I think the notion that the rich benefit disproportionately is incorrect. I certainly think it's wrong to say that the poor and middle class put in more than they get. Every argument I just made for the poor is tripled for the middle class, who I think gets the best deal in town.
15260. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 11:41:16 AM
I will give credit to Curious George's handlers, however, for keeping a tight lid on Curious George's cage.
A bad situation and outcome could have been much worse with Curious George expounding his opinion.
Damage was limited to comments like this, yesterday:
Uh, this administration is doing everything uh we can to end uh the stalemate in an efficient way. Wa..we..we're making the right decisions to uh to bring the solution to an end.
15261. Francis Urquhart - 4/11/2001 11:48:48 AM
And a self-serving, muddled, and uneducated criticism of Bush's handling of the matter and his foreign policy team culminates in a negative evaluation of what?
Diction.
Another bravura performance of Me Know Little About Lot.
15262. greystoke - 4/11/2001 11:50:08 AM
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON -- Judicial Watch, a conservative group that gained prominence by repeatedly suing the Clinton White House, is taking legal action against House Republican leader Tom DeLay over allegations he tried to raise political donations by promising meetings with Bush administration officials.
"It is improper and illegal to sell official public office for political campaign contributions," said Judicial Watch chairman and general counsel Larry Klayman. "When Clinton did this, Judicial Watch acted. We cannot look the other way when Republicans do the same thing."
Klayman said Tuesday that he had filed complaints with the Federal Election Commission and the Justice Department, asking them to investigate DeLay, R-Texas, and the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) for fund-raising violations. He said he also would ask the House ethics committee to look into the matter.
"This whole thing is ridiculous," said Emily Miller, DeLay's spokeswoman. "Tom DeLay has done absolutely nothing wrong."
The Associated Press reported this month that DeLay, the House's third-ranked Republican, was promising meetings with senior Bush officials to small business owners who made donations to underwrite a GOP ad campaign promoting President Bush's tax plan.
DeLay, in a taped telephone message sent to businessmen, asked them to serve as "an honorary member of our new Business Advisory Council." As a member, he said, "you will be invited to meetings with top Bush administration officials where your opinions on issues like tax reform will be heard."
Both Miller and Steve Schmidt, spokesman for the NRCC, said DeLay was seeking donations in the $300 to $500 range for people interested in attending a tax relief summit in Washington next month where administration officials, members of Congress and others will speak.
15263. Indiana Jones - 4/11/2001 11:54:37 AM
If big government benefits the rich more than the poor, is the Democratic Party the party of the rich?
Are both rich and poor voters stupid and have no idea what's in their best interest?
15264. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 12:10:35 PM
It was a sincere compliment, Niner.
This incident could have been made far worse by Curious George making some off-the-cuff comment about the situation. His handlers are to be commended for having the discipline to keep Curious George under wraps.
15265. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 12:20:02 PM
Are both rich and poor voters stupid and have no idea what's in their best interest?
Yes -- but the issue isn't couched in terms of rich and poor so much, but as sound bites and emotional appeals to single issue voters. Farmers tend to vote Republican even though Democrats seem to fight harder to see that farmers keep getting their goodies.
DH has a friend who is on the margins of the economy whose wife is disabled and they're living from hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. Yet he votes Republican. Why? Because the Republicans have convinced him that the Democrats will soon be pounding on his door to take away his guns.
So it's not that people are too stupid to vote their own self interests, it's that politics has been dumbed down to the extent that voters often base their votes on emotional appeals to single issues that are pretty bogus in the final analysis.
15266. JadeGold1 - 4/11/2001 12:23:14 PM
I'm surprised William Kristol is taking Curious George to task.
After all, he, better than most, must understand how difficult it is to be a handler for a complete idiot.
Kristol was Danny Quayle's handler and he couldn't stop Quayle from saying the most ridiculous things. And Quayle was only Veep.
Curious George is the president*. And he is far dumber than Quayle. Keeping the lid on Curious George was a tour de force.
15267. CalGal - 4/11/2001 12:23:56 PM
Farmers tend to vote Republican even though Democrats seem to fight harder to see that farmers keep getting their goodies.
There was an article in the TNR that mentioned this disconnect--it's fairly recent.
So it's not that people are too stupid to vote their own self interests,
Well, yes, it is. It's either that or the guy defines his self-interest differently than you do. Take your pick. But how can you deny that it's stupidity if "dumbing down" works so well?
15268. Ronski - 4/11/2001 12:24:22 PM
I suspect that gun-owners understand the concept of the slippery slope better than most people.
As for farmers, note that they will send to the Senate anybody who keeps sending them goodies, witness the success of Daschle and Conrad, Democrats.
15269. Indiana Jones - 4/11/2001 12:25:47 PM
Yes [the voters are stupid].
bubbaette: Haha. Your example is strange, however. If your friend is on the margins he ought to be voting Republican. Remember, government benefits the rich more than the poor, so the down and out should be in favor of cutting it.
15270. Ronski - 4/11/2001 12:27:25 PM
Kristol has implanted himself firmly among the loonier ranks of the anti-freedom, pro-military right, probably because Murdoch wants him there.
I'm delighted that he is beating up on W, and hope that W will tell the Kristol wing where to place it.
15271. Indiana Jones - 4/11/2001 12:31:46 PM
Cheney (on Meet the Press):
Key fact to get across, the ANWAR — the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge—19 million acres, roughly the size of South Carolina. The amount of land that needs to be disturbed on the surface to develop that resource, 2,000 acres, roughly half the size of Dulles Airport. The notion that somehow developing the resources in ANWAR requires some sort of vast despoiling of the environment up there is just garbage. It’s not true.
Editorial
WHY doesn't President Bush just go ahead and take a soccer mom and a waitress mom out to a suburban mall and pistol-whip them in the food court? That couldn't inflict much more unnecessary political damage on our narrowly elected leader than some of his actual policy decisions.
While the new administration's actions on a string of environmental issues may please the president's corporate sponsors and anti-government conservatives, the rollbacks on global warming, drinking water and industrial emissions are not likely to sit well (nor should they) with the suburban women who may hold the fate of Republicans in the 2002 congressional elections and the 2004 presidential contest.
15272. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 12:34:11 PM
But how can you deny that it's stupidity if "dumbing down" works so well?
Most people get their news from television. Television really sucks at presenting complex issues that don't lend themselves to visuals, so the issues that affect people the most in their pocket books don't get the coverage they need to explore the issues in depth. Frankly, most people are not going to do a whole bunch of independent study to find out about these issues. Instead they chose a hot button issue that gets lots of attention and base their votes on that.
I don't necessarily think people who base their votes on single issues are stupid. Maybe uninvolved, incurious, lazy, or easily swayed, but not stupid.
15273. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 12:39:14 PM
Nah, they're stupid.
15274. bubbaette - 4/11/2001 12:41:56 PM
Stupid when it comes to politics -- which most people don't perceive as having much to do with their "real" lives.
15275. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 1:02:58 PM
Stuoid is as stupid does.
15276. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 1:03:44 PM
Now wasn't that stupid?
15277. concerned - 4/11/2001 1:07:24 PM
15278. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:13:01 PM
Kowtow
15279. concerned - 4/11/2001 1:14:07 PM
Hey jex -
Ongoing surveillance flights, baby. Bore would have blown it big time.
15280. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:14:55 PM
Bush Seeks to Renegotiate Trade Pact With Jordan
Fresh from groveling before the Chinese, the toady to his corporate masters is "vexed" by provisions in the pact to protect the environment and the rights of workers.
15281. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:17:32 PM
Hey concerned
apologize, British and Australian usually -ise verb
to tell someone that you are sorry for having done something that has caused them inconvenience or unhappiness
He apologized publicly to me for his mistake. [I]
Trains may be subject to delay on the northern line - we apologize for any inconvenience caused. [I]
She apologized profusely for having to leave at 3.30 p.m. [I]
He apologized that the statistics had been inaccurate. [+ that clause]
SLIGHTLY FORMAL I do apologize if my voice is a little low - I've got rather a bad cold. [I]
15282. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:19:06 PM
hey concerned
A National Humiliation - The Weekly Standard
kowtow
15283. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:21:40 PM
This just in from the Conintern
Kowtow
15284. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:23:07 PM
defeat and humiliation...the shame...the shame
15285. concerned - 4/11/2001 1:23:58 PM
The word 'apologize' is not evident in our diplomatic lexicon, judging by the letter we sent the Chinese leadership which is causing them to release the 24 'detainees'.
Merely 'very sorry'. Bush could just as well, in the letter, have added that he was 'very sorry' that the Chinese dictators are lying maggots. But he is too diplomatic for that.
15286. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:25:10 PM
I am very *concerned* this morning
15287. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 1:25:22 PM
Face it, connie, Bush is nothing more than a boot-licking Communist toadie. What kind of a message is he sending to our children?
OH, THE HUMANITY!
(Cue Kate Smith)
15288. concerned - 4/11/2001 1:25:43 PM
once again, jexster leaves his toys in the attic.
15289. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:26:23 PM
apologize, British and Australian usually -ise verb
to tell someone that you are sorry
But Bush is VERY sorry.
hehehehe
15290. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:26:55 PM
and as an American I, along with Billy Kristol, am VERY ashamed
15291. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:27:27 PM
and concerned
15292. jexster - 4/11/2001 1:28:27 PM
at least Elian is free!
15293. Dusty - 4/11/2001 2:30:36 PM
Very sorry2 does the trick!
15294. Wombat - 4/11/2001 2:46:38 PM
We are really, really sorry, so very sorry, absolutely sorry, I mean really sorry.
15295. Ronski - 4/11/2001 3:40:07 PM
In fact, we are so sorry we are going to arm Taiwan to the teeth.
15296. CalGal - 4/11/2001 3:53:38 PM
First woman governor of Massachussetts is also knocked up and due to pop in June.
She's the one who got in trouble for using the helicopter and having employees babysit, as I recall.
15297. Wombat - 4/11/2001 4:00:46 PM
Ronski:
It will take 4-6 years for AEGIS destroyers to come on line and for the Taiwanese to be ready to use them. What do you think China might do during that time?
15298. Ronski - 4/11/2001 4:01:33 PM
Bluster.
15299. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:06:01 PM
15300. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:06:31 PM 15301. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:11:14 PM WRT the BUSH-begotten idea of selling AEGIS destroyers to Taiwan, what would sale of this equipment add to Taiwanese security? 15302. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:14:19 PM But right now I cannot think of such nonsense. I am so ashamed and humiliated at our national defeat and humiliation, so very concerned that our great nation is, as Mao said we were, a paper tiger. 15303. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:15:29 PM Oh the shame...the shame... 15304. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:21:27 PM Our national honor sold for a bunch of cheap suits and cell phones. 15305. joezan - 4/11/2001 4:27:29 PM Jex truly believes by continuing to post his fantasies, which run entirely contrary to actual events (NO apology for hitting the Chinese jet, no halt to surveillance flights, not an inch of capitulation on any Taiwan, trade, or Olympics issue - which is, after all, what the hostage-taking was all about) that he will make it "true". 15306. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 4:28:55 PM Joe - Who is Jex trying to convince? 15307. joezan - 4/11/2001 4:30:37 PM Either that, or he is one of Jade's "sources", let out of the bag, and now gone amok. 15308. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:35:46 PM Our national humiliation is detailed in an editorial of the same name appearing in this week's Weekly Standard 15309. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:36:17 PM Its a sad day to be an American 15310. joezan - 4/11/2001 4:38:21 PM Only if your name happens to be jexster. 15311. joezan - 4/11/2001 4:39:17 PM ...in which case, every day since Jan. 20, 2001, is a very, very sad day. 15312. Wombat - 4/11/2001 4:42:01 PM Ronski: 15313. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 4:42:06 PM What happened on January 20th? 15314. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:42:42 PM Oh that the Bastard Imbecile had heeded the words of our btsve fighting men and women instead of the voice of his big business masters who want cheap chips 15315. rubberducky - 4/11/2001 4:44:20 PM then take your meds like the doctors tell you to 15316. Ronski - 4/11/2001 4:44:52 PM Bush: "Swinging Both Ways" 15317. joezan - 4/11/2001 4:45:23 PM THE LOONY LEFT, YESTERDAY: 15318. Ronski - 4/11/2001 4:47:12 PM Wombat, 15319. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:47:58 PM Glad you mention Billy Kristol JoeZ! 15320. Ronski - 4/11/2001 4:48:26 PM That "highly-regarded" part is pretty funny. 15321. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:48:54 PM But if the Chicoms DON't have the stomach for an invasion Ronski, why sell AEGIS? 15322. Ronski - 4/11/2001 4:50:04 PM jexster, 15323. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:50:33 PM But it is the appeasers who wind up leading us into war. ...Billy Kristol 15324. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:51:52 PM hehehee..Ronsk! 15325. Ronski - 4/11/2001 4:52:24 PM I agree we should not hand the Sudetenland over to the Germans ever again. 15326. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:53:03 PM Were you there when Bush laid US in the tomb? 15327. jexster - 4/11/2001 4:53:34 PM I am too shaken to contine... 15328. glendajean - 4/11/2001 4:57:21 PM Ronski -- thanks for the Salon link about Bush's openly gay appointee. Very interesting story. 15329. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 4:57:34 PM Jex - I am too shaken to contine... 15330. jexster - 4/11/2001 5:03:56 PM and what abiut our AEGIS plane? Did you see what they did to our plane! 15331. joezan - 4/11/2001 5:11:20 PM Chinese officials said Wednesday it would free the detained crew after receiving a letter from President Bush saying he was “very sorry” that a Chinese pilot had been killed and that the aircraft had violated Chinese sovereignty when it made an emergency landing. 15332. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:22:06 PM Here is my proposed "resolution" of the spy plane incident posted YESTERDAY: 15333. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:23:41 PM "sorry" is the right word sandwiched between "regret" and "apology". Now both governments can spin it the way they see fit. 15334. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:25:21 PM GW Bush passed the "test" and brought back our 24 crew members from China................and the liberals are pissed off. 15335. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:31:08 PM Winners : Colin Powell,Hainan (future resort hot spot) 15336. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 5:32:55 PM 15337. joezan - 4/11/2001 5:34:23 PM Not really, bbb. 15338. AceofSpades - 4/11/2001 5:37:58 PM 15339. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 5:43:41 PM Actually I think we have Jesse Jackson to thank for the Chinese releasing the crew. Once the Chinese government realized that they would have to put up with his whining and arrogance and tolerate his incessant posturing at endless photo ops, they realized that it wasn't worth the hassle. They took the easy way out and decided to release the crew and drop the demands. Bush was brilliant. He told them that Jackson would stay in China until the crew was released. The Chinese quickly gave up. Who would have thought that Jesse Jackson would be Bush's secret weapon. 15340. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:43:45 PM "The crew's release is a victory for Chinese President Jiang Zemin's moderate line 15341. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:45:08 PM The speed of resolution ,in this context, is measured in HOURS. 15342. bbb - 4/11/2001 5:52:49 PM Will Wang Wei resurface AFTER the release of our 24 crew members? 15343. concerned - 4/11/2001 6:05:09 PM 15344. bbb - 4/11/2001 6:11:11 PM concerned, 15345. bbb - 4/11/2001 6:11:55 PM 15346. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 6:16:25 PM bbb - Will Wang Wei resurface AFTER the release of our 24 crew members? 15347. jexster - 4/11/2001 6:36:01 PM 15348. jexster - 4/11/2001 6:38:39 PM What do you expect of someone who sold YOUR democratic birthright to get elected? 15349. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 6:46:20 PM My God do you realize what just happened a moment ago? 15350. jexster - 4/11/2001 6:47:36 PM Meanwhile, back at the state zoo, we still have an agenda dominated by George W. Bush, but it's Bush-in-reverse. 15351. bbb - 4/11/2001 6:55:40 PM Wang Wei maybe well and alive under the Chinese "witness protection program " from day one. 15352. concerned - 4/11/2001 7:04:29 PM Nader's got big plans for 2002 & 2004 15353. jexster - 4/11/2001 7:05:22 PM YOU better HOPE so...be concerned be very concerned 15354. jexster - 4/11/2001 7:28:47 PM "This administration is doing everything we can to end the stalemate in an efficient way. We're making the right decisions to bring the solution to an end." 15355. jexster - 4/11/2001 7:32:39 PM What Ken Lay Wants, Ken Lay Gets? 15356. jexster - 4/11/2001 8:23:23 PM So if you're keeping score at home and of course you probably aren't because God knows these sort of political sucker-punches are often just 15357. jexster - 4/11/2001 8:33:54 PM Happy Enron Pin Day Giants Fans 15358. concerned - 4/11/2001 8:36:31 PM 15359. Cellar Door - 4/11/2001 9:20:47 PM Connie, I didn't know you were Al D'Amato! 15360. jexster - 4/11/2001 10:56:26 PM LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - California was urged on Wednesday to fight back against a ``sellers cartel'', blamed for driving up wholesale electricity prices in the state, and form a ``buyers cartel'' with energy-starved neighbors Oregon and Washington. 15361. joezan - 4/11/2001 11:23:26 PM Ace: 15362. bbb - 4/12/2001 12:26:28 AM One interesting aspect in the translation department: 15363. bbb - 4/12/2001 12:27:28 AM 15364. joezan - 4/12/2001 12:39:08 AM bbb: 15365. CalGal - 4/12/2001 12:45:26 AM "You have to wonder what point there is in being a super power anymore." 15366. bbb - 4/12/2001 12:49:44 AM The moderates from BOTH sides have prevailed. 15367. thoughtful - 4/12/2001 9:58:05 AM Crew departs.... 15368. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:04:54 AM thoughtful 15369. rubberducky - 4/12/2001 10:08:15 AM just think... 15370. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:08:23 AM Condo Rice 15371. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:08:49 AM Social conservatives, in a significant break with the administration, are mobilizing to try to kill President Bush's selection of Scott H. Evertz, a gay Republican, to run the White House Office of National AIDS Policy. 15372. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:11:08 AM duck 15373. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:12:44 AM 15374. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:12:57 AM I have a prediction. 15375. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:13:36 AM At least we're "natural" now..... 15376. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:14:11 AM You remember her. Close personal friend to the Clintons. The social conservatives began to squawk. But Clinton would not yield. 15377. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:14:50 AM Bill Kristol and Gary Bauer speaketh the truth 15378. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:17:08 AM Oh perhaps Hormel might be a better example... 15379. rubberducky - 4/12/2001 10:20:08 AM Fran 15380. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:21:30 AM jexster 15381. joezan - 4/12/2001 10:22:01 AM What about Homel...er, uh, Hormel? 15382. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:23:09 AM ducky 15383. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 10:26:20 AM The tanking of Hormel was egregious. But those who tanked Hormel remained consistent. No knife entered his back. It was full-on, in his throat. The Bush appointment of Evertz (and I expect him to hold firm) is the signal, at least from this Administration, that the Hormel litmus test is on the way out. It is a difficult balance but with the hard right so hopped up that we aren't killing Red Chinese by the score, the announcement was well-timed. Lump all your bad news in one sack. 15384. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:28:35 AM Way to Go Antonio! 15385. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:29:41 AM pronounced VEE-yah-ray-GO-suh,Frances 15386. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:31:23 AM JoeZ I am still to shaken by our national dishonor to pay attention to your piss poor humor 15387. Cellar Door - 4/12/2001 10:43:38 AM 15388. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:46:53 AM EDGEFIELD, S.C. -- Talking about Strom Thurmond's health around here is a little like sticking your finger in a bowl of grits: It ain't polite... 15389. joezan - 4/12/2001 10:48:59 AM jex: 15390. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:49:21 AM SAN JOSE--The wholesale power price cap California politicians sought will not be included in an upcoming federal plan to stabilize the state's electricity market, the chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission said Wednesday 15391. ycmeehan - 4/12/2001 10:52:40 AM Off topics, sorry. 15392. jexster - 4/12/2001 10:56:13 AM Beijing -- The Chinese must be satisfied with the spoils of their latest run-in with the United States. 15393. Cellar Door - 4/12/2001 10:58:50 AM My website is www.ehrensteinland.com 15394. Ronski - 4/12/2001 11:07:01 AM Another Attack on Bush from the Murdoch Minions 15395. Ronski - 4/12/2001 11:43:04 AM George Will: Roll Call Has a Surprise for Congress 15396. Ronski - 4/12/2001 12:27:01 PM Bastiat Backs Up Bush 15397. CalGal - 4/12/2001 12:55:39 PM Keerist. You'd think these guys had spent several years in combat rather than a few days intaking unusually high amounts of MSG. 15398. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 1:03:16 PM Oh I'm sure they had the requisite number of bamboo shoots shoved under their fingernails... 15399. Ronski - 4/12/2001 1:07:44 PM But they were canned bamboo shoots, which are real soft and squishy. 15400. Dusty - 4/12/2001 1:12:59 PM Ronski: 15401. Ronski - 4/12/2001 1:13:54 PM On his website today, Andrew Sullivan notes that Jonah Goldberg, now of National Review, has annoyed Asian Americans by saying something really stupid about his anger at Chinese menues being stuffed under his door. 15402. Dusty - 4/12/2001 1:14:15 PM I'm happy to see that Will agreees with me: 15403. Ronski - 4/12/2001 1:15:12 PM Dusty, 15404. Ronski - 4/12/2001 1:17:12 PM Dusty, 15405. Ronski - 4/12/2001 1:18:32 PM (15403 to 15400) 15406. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 1:23:14 PM See Sullivan's link in the B-Bar for more 15407. Dusty - 4/12/2001 1:36:35 PM JudithAtHome 15408. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 1:42:05 PM Dusty: 15409. jexster - 4/12/2001 1:47:57 PM "Chinese Twins 15410. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 1:59:34 PM Whatever the outcome, it all rests on Bushs shoulders for, as Dick Cheney stated yesterday, GWB was in charge. On NPRs Diane Rehm show, she asked Mr. Cheney just who was running the show; was it he, the Vice President or was it Colin Powell or Ms Rice or Mr. Rumsfeld...just who was in charge of whole thing? Cheney didn't miss a beat and said " The President!" So now we know... 15411. jexster - 4/12/2001 2:00:02 PM 15412. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:04:33 PM DID BEIJING BLINK?: Fascinating story in the British Daily Telegraph, suggesting that the Chinese people have interpreted Bush's "very very sorry" as something way short of a real apology. The Telegraph reporter asked people on the street what they thought as they pored over the government's latest explanation. "Mr Li: "This problem has not been properly resolved. Once the crew are released, we have no leverage over the Americans. In our hearts we are very upset. The Chinese pilot hasn't even been found yet." Passers-by gathered to shout their opinions, paying no heed to uniformed and plain clothes police nearby. One man said: "This 'very sorry', it's like they bumped someone on the street." Another added: "Only a formal apology will do. They should put the American pilot on trial. If he has broken the law, let him go to jail." One man complained that this was not the first time Chinese leaders had promised an American apology and then settled for less. He said: "It was just like this in 1999, after they bombed our embassy in Yugoslavia."" The Telegraph has some great foreign coverage and I trust this story. Sure these people have only been fed government propaganda about the incident, but that only shows the difficult spot Beijing put itself in. Before the right goes nuts over a "national humiliation," they should take a deep breath and ponder who really climbed down. 15413. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:04:56 PM 15414. Ronski - 4/12/2001 2:07:56 PM Not to mention yi han. 15415. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:08:30 PM Many people felt the American government's expression of regret and "deep sorrow" in the bilateral agreement which led to the crew's release lacked sincerity and did not go far enough. 15416. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:09:55 PM Well, maybe Joezan was right. Maybe this is more of a Bush win. 15417. joezan - 4/12/2001 2:14:50 PM Ace: 15418. joezan - 4/12/2001 2:16:01 PM Sorry - I see you've already been there. 15419. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:17:37 PM 15420. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:27:20 PM You know, they had 24 guys of ours and we had to send a letter like a weenie saying we're really, really sorry. 15421. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:30:01 PM The Americans said baoqian' (sorry), but to Chinese people, that's not the same as daoqian,' a sincere apology," said Guo. 15422. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:33:08 PM "Kicking ass " means to send in the stealth bomber to destroy the EP-3E sitting in the Hainan runway. 15423. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:35:09 PM Bill Krystol was dead wrong on this issue. 15424. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:37:16 PM The imputation of "kicking ass" is, as Ace submits, the converse of jexster's crowing about a "kowtow." We found ourselves in a thorny situation wherein a surveillance plane had to/was forced to land in Chinese territory. The plane was surveilling an area China would prefer it not surveill. Criticisms on all sides, from the wacky right-wingers in Congress/The Weekly Standard to those who contend that any delay of return was evidence of the adminstration's naivete has been laughable, and can be attributed to the need to fill air-time, the need to speak of every crisis in terms of minutes, and standard party-line hackery. 15425. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:40:01 PM 15426. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:41:32 PM But to announce that this uncomfortable extrication (which would have befallen any administration of any political bent with any of the usual suspects at the helm of foreign policy), is ludicrous. 15427. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 2:41:54 PM Aren't we lucky they don't shoot anyone for criticizing any administration in America. Period. 15428. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:41:58 PM 15429. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:43:13 PM Er 15430. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 2:43:18 PM Maybe he meant "is a failure". 15431. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 2:44:09 PM ...or an "ass kicking". ;-) 15432. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:44:26 PM He got all carried away by the parenthesis. 15433. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:44:30 PM "Aren't we lucky they don't shoot anyone for criticizing any administration in America. Period." 15434. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:44:40 PM Thanks to all for edits. 15435. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:45:26 PM 15436. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 2:46:54 PM Oh great...I make a generalized statement that Americans are lucky to have freedom of speech unlike the Chinese who don't and Ace jumps on me and makes it sound as though I was bad mouthing Republicans. And you wonder why people get pissed at you. 15437. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:47:13 PM It seems to me, though, that Bush won on points. 15438. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:47:29 PM All writing is a success if you avoid the word "quite" and upon completion of any paragraph, go back and delete 75% of your adjectives. 15439. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:47:56 PM GWB and Powell won this one in a quiet way. 15440. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:49:03 PM Cal 15441. Ronski - 4/12/2001 2:49:36 PM Gee, I thought yi han meant, "Oops!" 15442. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:49:57 PM And now we're falling over these guys like they're hee-roes instead of some guys who accidentally crashed their plane and had to eat chow mein for a week. 15443. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:50:28 PM 15444. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:50:52 PM For example, we sure kicked Milosevic's ass. 15445. Ronski - 4/12/2001 2:51:15 PM More likely spring rolls. Mmmmmmm! I hope some reporter asks. 15446. joezan - 4/12/2001 2:51:16 PM No, Cal - that would not be "kicking ass". That would be extreme, imbecilic posturing, and the Chinese would know that in a second. 15447. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:52:23 PM 15448. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:52:58 PM Francis, 15449. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:53:33 PM joe 15450. JudithAtHome - 4/12/2001 2:53:41 PM have to feed their people with meat rejected by the EU. 15451. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:54:40 PM "yi han " means "regret". Period. 15452. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:54:48 PM Somewhat amateurishly and in a protective, bomb-dropping manner. 15453. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:55:21 PM Cal 15454. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 2:55:30 PM Examples of diplomacy that kicked ass: 15455. CalGal - 4/12/2001 2:55:47 PM The pilot is a hero, at least as we've defined the term down in the later 20th Century. 15456. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:56:12 PM 15457. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:56:16 PM Why the need to "kick ass " over an air ACCIDENT???? 15458. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:56:42 PM 15459. joezan - 4/12/2001 2:57:10 PM Francis: 15460. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 2:57:52 PM joe 15461. bbb - 4/12/2001 2:58:41 PM And Ken Starr kicked Clinton's ass. 15462. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 2:59:31 PM 15463. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:00:08 PM No need to kick ass in this case. No public support for it, either. 15464. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:00:34 PM Francis, 15465. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:01:29 PM 15466. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:01:42 PM The first person's ass we need to kick is Lee Greenwood, who has been milking that song for an entire career. 15467. joezan - 4/12/2001 3:01:54 PM Actually, I'm listening to Boulder to Birmingham by Emmylou. 15468. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:03:09 PM 15469. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:04:05 PM 15470. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:04:36 PM Bush :"I'm sorry" 15471. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:05:10 PM Yeah. 15472. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 3:05:34 PM The only ass-kicking the Weekly Standard could suggest after its apoplectic editorial was to reject China's most-favored-nation trade status when it comes up for renewal later this spring (i.e., kicking our own ass as well as Chinese ass) and "by augmenting America's strategic relationship with Taiwan and, above all, by selling Taiwan the weapons it needs to maintain the cross-straits military balance" (which I imagine we will probably do and would have done no matter this surveillance plane snag). 15473. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:06:31 PM 15474. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:06:41 PM All right everyone, I'm taking odds on how long it will take Ace to rev up and announce that he's going to ignore me forever. 15475. Cellar Door - 4/12/2001 3:07:11 PM Good question, Ace. 15476. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:07:12 PM On the superpower: 15477. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:08:07 PM 15478. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:08:30 PM Oh, and as for your West Wing jibe--you are incorrect. I enjoy quoting the line because it echoes something I've believed for quite some time now. It's hardly an idea I got from the show, which I don't even care for all that much this season. 15479. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:09:44 PM What's the point of being a superpower anymore? 15480. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:10:15 PM 15481. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:10:18 PM I mean, if we're not going to start a thermonuclear war with Russia and/or China every time we have a "situation," what the hell are we paying our military for? 15482. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 3:10:22 PM Cal 15483. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:10:32 PM The Left Wing? 15484. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:11:47 PM Please explain when, in the past, when there presumably WAS a point to being a superpower, we went to war with Russia and/or China over a tense incident. 15485. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:13:01 PM 15486. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:13:33 PM All this stupid talk on "what a superpower is for" reminded me of that Mad Not-so-bright . 15487. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 3:13:36 PM To set the boxcar properly on the rails, Cal's suggestion was that the United States inform China "Eh. Take 'em. Who gives a shit? I have other things to do". 15488. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:15:36 PM I think Albright had a comment to that effect during Yugoslavia. Something about what's the use of having weapons if you're not going to use them? 15489. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:15:46 PM Clinton kicked Sudan's ass by bombing their asprin factory when Ken Starr was kicking Clinton's ass. 15490. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:17:09 PM If you are suggesting that the course of action you would have suggested is "Eh. Take 'em. Who gives a shit? I have other things to do", so be it. 15491. Ronski - 4/12/2001 3:17:20 PM (I also seem to recall that Truman's popularity took a massive dive about that time.) 15492. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:17:34 PM Indy, 15493. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 3:20:05 PM Cal 15494. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:20:39 PM I seem to remember Truman firing MacArthur for daring to suggest we cross the Yellow River... even after Chinese soldiers attacked us in mass. 15495. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:21:15 PM 15496. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:21:20 PM Cal: Would you have a) more amused b)less amused or c) amused about the same if Bush had sent them a fish in a kimono? 15497. joezan - 4/12/2001 3:21:28 PM Boy! 15498. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:24:25 PM U.S. Crew Members Arrive in Hawaii 15499. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:24:40 PM 15500. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:25:25 PM Ooops--I missed Ronski's post. What he said. 15501. rubberducky - 4/12/2001 3:26:37 PM Re: Message # 15496, Indiana Jones. 15502. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:27:38 PM 15503. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 3:27:40 PM joezan: I think it's nothing more than a tuneup--like a preseason football game. It could have exposed some weakness if we'd played really poorly, but a few months from now it'll be a footnote. 15504. joezan - 4/12/2001 3:28:25 PM "...Shane Osborn, Spy Mission Commander...??? 15505. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:29:16 PM Your statement about "no point in being a superpower ANYMORE" presupposes that there was a point in the past when we happy to go to war with China or Russia, or to tell them to "Fuck off" and to precipitate a crisis which would lead to a war. 15506. concerned - 4/12/2001 3:29:18 PM Research shows Randolph Jefferson and Sally Hemings were the hot couple. Thomas Jefferson off the paternity hook 15507. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 3:29:25 PM Cal 15508. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:30:31 PM I, too, am occasionally surprised anyone responds to your quotes at all. 15509. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:31:11 PM Bush has run a very diciplined,mature,professional,competent ,low-key yet effective,leak-free Administration so far. 15510. concerned - 4/12/2001 3:32:15 PM Note to Lefties: Being a superpower has no, repeat, no connection to a policy of MAD. 15511. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:33:10 PM Francis, 15512. concerned - 4/12/2001 3:33:54 PM The best thing about Madeline Notbright is that she was a perfect double for a generic cleaning lady. 15513. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:34:25 PM Cal"yi han" Gal? 15514. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:35:08 PM 15515. Francis Urquhart - 4/12/2001 3:35:08 PM Cal 15516. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:37:24 PM You claim that our "capitulation" to China shows that there's "no point in being a superpower anymore." 15517. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:39:04 PM 15518. Dusty - 4/12/2001 3:39:23 PM FU 15519. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:40:04 PM Here are the real tough questions for Dr. Rice who said we would fly the recon mission again: 15520. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:43:02 PM Dusty, 15521. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:44:26 PM Cincinnati Mayor Announces Citywide Curfew 15522. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:48:07 PM Bush To Implement Medical Privacy Rules 15523. CalGal - 4/12/2001 3:48:47 PM I'm not trying to win an argument, Ace. In fact, there's nothing to "win". I just stated an observation that you haven't yet figured out, much less responded to. I'm just bored of going down the path where you attribute positions to me that have absolutely nothing to do with what I've said. 15524. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 3:50:33 PM Cal, 15525. bbb - 4/12/2001 3:53:25 PM Bush Approves New Energy Standards 15526. vonKreedon - 4/12/2001 3:53:46 PM 15527. Ronski - 4/12/2001 3:56:24 PM Oh, great. Everybody living in a trailer camp is just going to be thrilled to spend an extra $240 when their washer conks out. 15528. joezan - 4/12/2001 4:00:07 PM Well, one obvious advantage - and a powerful one, though very understated -is that if it was some other country spying on the Chinese, the crew members could probably look forward to a noose, after being tortured for a few months. 15529. CalGal - 4/12/2001 4:00:36 PM Ace, 15530. AceofSpades - 4/12/2001 4:01:54 PM 15531. CalGal - 4/12/2001 4:01:59 PM But, as Ace et al have pointed out, there really isn't all that much difference between the options available to the worlds only superpower and the previous situation as one of the worlds two superpowers. 15532. bbb - 4/12/2001 4:04:21 PM Bush to Plane Crew: Welcome Home 15533. Indiana Jones - 4/12/2001 4:08:28 PM Ask Yugoslavia about the advantages of being a superpower. 15534. concerned - 4/12/2001 4:10:23 PM 15535. bbb - 4/12/2001 4:11:35 PM Bush said, ''China's decision to prevent the return of our crew for 11 days is inconsistent with the kind of relations we have both said we want to have.'' 15536. joezan - 4/12/2001 4:15:35 PM concerned: 15537. bbb - 4/12/2001 4:20:48 PM VERSION I- 15538. bbb - 4/12/2001 4:22:53 PM Version II- 15539. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/12/2001 4:29:51 PM 15540. jexster - 4/12/2001 4:53:48 PM And what about our brave plane? 15541. jexster - 4/12/2001 4:55:55 PM and bush will crawl on his belly like a fuckin reptile.... 15542. JJBiener - 4/12/2001 5:26:13 PM Jex - A plane is an inanimate object. It does not feel shame. Judging from your posts, neither do you. 15543. jexster - 4/12/2001 5:34:16 PM ya know with all the Kornpone Kackle about the Yellow Peril, there is some real news goin down 15544. Cellar Door - 4/12/2001 5:53:13 PM "It was the 15th time a black crime suspect was killed by Cincinnati police since 1995 -- a period during which there were no police killings of white suspects." 15545. labwabbit - 4/12/2001 6:01:49 PM a period during which there were no police killings of white suspects." 15546. jexster - 4/12/2001 8:48:58 PM Back to Kornpone 15547. jexster - 4/12/2001 8:49:58 PM I think ole Curious George has got more Bush Riots on his hands. 15548. jexster - 4/12/2001 8:56:10 PM The Myth of the 4% Spending Increase 15549. Stumbo - 4/12/2001 10:15:20 PM Summary of the piece Jex linked in: 15550. MsIvoryTower - 4/12/2001 10:25:34 PM Couple of idle observations about this whole China thing; 15551. joezan - 4/12/2001 11:44:33 PM It would seem that there could not be much use to the Chinese for a plane that's...well, almost as old as I am. Particularly if sensitive data and equipment were destroyed on the way down, which is SOP. 15552. JJBiener - 4/12/2001 11:48:03 PM Joezan - Anyone know what, in particular, it is that we wouldn't want them to get a hold of? 15553. joezan - 4/12/2001 11:55:55 PM JJ: 15554. Wombat - 4/13/2001 7:49:17 AM Judging from the photos of some of the Chinese Air Force planes at Hainan, the EP-3, once repaired, could be a modern maritime surveillance craft. There were planes that looked like Chinese versions of MiG-17s, which date from the 1950s. 15555. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 9:18:45 AM Wombat 15556. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 9:26:49 AM Cellar 15557. bubbaette - 4/13/2001 9:38:15 AM I don't see us making any concessions to get a beat-up obsolete plane back. 15558. joezan - 4/13/2001 10:14:55 AM Looks like you're right, bubb. 15559. Wombat - 4/13/2001 10:23:37 AM MsIt: 15560. CalGal - 4/13/2001 10:30:30 AM 15561. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 10:31:52 AM Wombat, 109 15562. CalGal - 4/13/2001 10:36:01 AM I think it makes more sense for us to shrug it off than demand its return. Bush's actions after the return of the crew are properly contemptuous. I am pleased. 15563. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 10:37:32 AM "However, in most of those incidents, the men first shot at or threatened police officers." 15564. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 10:38:16 AM Calgal, 15565. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 10:40:08 AM Actually, 15566. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 10:43:16 AM Cellar 15567. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 10:45:32 AM MsIt 15568. JJBiener - 4/13/2001 10:51:00 AM MsIT - I agree a self-destruct feature would be cool, but I would hate to think what would happen if someone managed to hack our destruct codes. 15569. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 11:15:21 AM 109 15570. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 11:18:05 AM "And if you cannot provide a source that you deem trustworthy, we will have established, if we have not established already, that reason on this point cannot be conveyed." 15571. bbb - 4/13/2001 11:19:34 AM 15562, 15572. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 11:21:49 AM We can demand the return of the plane all we want. I agree we need to continue to demand its return. 15573. bbb - 4/13/2001 11:33:16 AM Before you get carried away with those self-destruct device which may kill all the crew on board,you better explore the merits/needs/requirements/feasibility of an escort program for the sitting-duck recon planes. 15574. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 11:38:40 AM Cellar 15575. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 11:39:12 AM 6. Randy Black, 23, shot July 17, 1998, while threatening officer with a nail-studded board. 15576. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 11:40:15 AM Mistake - 15 black men have died at the hands of the police since 1995, as opposed to having been "shot dead" as I stated in my last post. 15577. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 11:41:01 AM The possibility exists that it was a "technology" trade with China. Think about it. They get "almost" up-to-date spy equipment while not making it look like we are openly trading this stuff with them. Would be bad for business eh? What would Taiwan think? Payback for the campaign contributions perhaps? A little trade-off for not splashing fellow Formosan Chinese or dissident intellects? 15578. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 11:50:41 AM The possibility exists that it was a "technology" trade with China. Think about it. They get "almost" up-to-date spy equipment while not making it look like we are openly trading this stuff with them. Would be bad for business eh? What would Taiwan think? Payback for the campaign contributions perhaps? A little trade-off for not splashing fellow Formosan Chinese or dissident intellects? 15579. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 11:54:11 AM "Rush Limbaugh" radio show that is... 15580. joezan - 4/13/2001 12:00:50 PM At first blush, the Cincinatti police shooting of the unarmed Black man seems to have been unwarranted. Looking into whether there is widespread racism (racial profiling, etc) in the city's police force, the question needs to be asked: 15581. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 12:01:19 PM No word on white crime in Cincinnati so far, eh? 15582. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 12:13:17 PM Cellar 15583. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 12:19:34 PM A 1999 Cincinnati Enquirer study of the Cincinnati Police Department's use of deadly force since 1994 showed that "78 percent - or 25 - of the people police shot at were black. About 15584. joezan - 4/13/2001 12:20:20 PM Also, a good number of the police involved in the 15 shootings were Black. 15585. joezan - 4/13/2001 12:24:02 PM X-post... 15586. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 12:32:39 PM "exonerated by an internal police investigation" 15587. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 12:36:12 PM When the facts disappoint, there is always the racist conspiracy to fall back on. 15588. joezan - 4/13/2001 12:43:34 PM 15563. Cellar Door - 4/13/01 10:37:32 AM 15589. JJBiener - 4/13/2001 12:43:42 PM Cellar - "exonerated by an internal police investigation" 15590. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 12:45:36 PM Racism is not a conspriacy, dear. It's a centrsl tenet of this culture. Did you hear the latest? Some Jefferson scholar has written a paper to dispute whose DNA made Sally Hemmings a mother. It couldn't have been Ol' Tom, you see. He was too much of a gentleman and a scholar. Must have been one of those randy no account borhters of his or something. Yeah -- that's the ticket. And this comes years after my friend Lucian K. Truscott IV (a direct white descendant of the old coot) settled the matter by officially bringing the Hemmings end of the family on board. It never ends. Never. 15591. JJBiener - 4/13/2001 12:46:12 PM Joe - This is the kind of ignorance of which riots are born. 15592. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 12:49:06 PM Lie about what? I told you what the news reports I've been hearing for the last 24 hours have been saying. Francis supplied the "official" (ie. police) version, and I have made further comment. What's your problem? Niggers not dying fast enough for you? 15593. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 12:49:51 PM God, aren't white people saintly? 15594. joezan - 4/13/2001 12:49:57 PM JJ: 15595. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 12:52:22 PM Cellar... 15596. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 12:52:42 PM "You have the bag to cry about bias and prejudice yet by your very actions and attitude in gravitating toward that "grouping-identity" you buy-into it's perpetuation." 15597. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 12:53:50 PM AND YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!! 15598. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 12:54:11 PM ...case in point. 15599. JJBiener - 4/13/2001 12:54:53 PM Cellar - I told you what the news reports I've been hearing for the last 24 hours have been saying. 15600. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 12:57:38 PM It is my considered opinion that these 2 professors were just too imature to settle a room dispute like adults... 15601. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 12:58:04 PM Cellar 15602. MsIvoryTower - 4/13/2001 12:59:09 PM Before you get carried away with those self-destruct device which may kill all the crew on board,you better explore the merits/needs/requirements/feasibility of an escort program for the sitting-duck recon planes. 15603. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 1:01:15 PM Actually your photo will be up in a week. My cyberslave Jimi is a bit behind on his work, and there was a rush job on the pic of hamp and Gabriel, so be patient. 15604. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 1:02:42 PM Cellar 15605. CalGal - 4/13/2001 1:05:21 PM He was all dreamy about how wonderful you looked before you upset him temporarily by revealing your racism. It will pass. 15606. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 1:05:32 PM Perhaps I'm too naive to think that when someone chooses a mascot it's because the see some virtue they hope will be instilled their team will. Take other groups of people the "Patriots"... the Fighting "Irish"... the "Trojans"... "spartans"... "Decons"... "Tarheels"... 15607. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 1:11:41 PM Who the heck are the Patriots? 15608. Wombat - 4/13/2001 1:12:35 PM iiibbb: 15609. CalGal - 4/13/2001 1:14:52 PM The Hoovers? 15610. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 1:18:42 PM Why not cross dressers? 15611. Wombat - 4/13/2001 1:20:08 PM iiibbb: 15612. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 1:21:21 PM hahaha... 15613. bubbaette - 4/13/2001 1:25:39 PM The Carpet Beaters? 15614. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 1:26:21 PM I'm profiling Hoovers 15615. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 1:27:29 PM the hoovers all look alike to me... 15616. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 1:28:36 PM The Mighty Vacumns earned their spot in the Dust Bowl this year. 15617. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 1:33:45 PM They went through the defense with the ease of a feather touch self propelled model. Like drawn through a HEPA filter, you couldn't sneeze at the points they bagged. 15618. Wombat - 4/13/2001 1:33:53 PM Reminds me of an advertisement for a vacuum cleaner on a billboard I saw in Britain: "Nothing sucks like an Electrolux." I kid you not. 15619. iiibbb - 4/13/2001 1:36:40 PM now there's something the british lead the world in.... 15620. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 1:37:54 PM uh...ya ...advertising. 15621. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 1:39:56 PM "Can I get approval or can I trust you that I look fabulous?" 15622. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 2:26:22 PM Hey -- looks like Al Gore was right. Wake Dubbya from his nap. 15623. bbb - 4/13/2001 2:32:10 PM I'm still stunned that no one in the news media has asked Clinton for his expert opinions on the China issue. Neither has anyone interviewed Al Gore or Mad Albright on this important issue. 15624. bbb - 4/13/2001 2:45:10 PM Japan Bankruptcies Up 12 Percent 15625. amax - 4/13/2001 3:13:18 PM 15626. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 3:38:06 PM A side note to the Cincinnati police shooting controversy. Proof positive of the racial-neutrality of the department, from the Enquirer study on deadly force: "When police cornered Ralph Schellhammer in a College Hill driveway, the man waved a Civil War sword at the officers and shouted, 'You'll have to shoot me.' They did." 15627. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 3:38:20 PM Now, back to your regularly scheduled vandalism, rubber bullets, curfews, looting, posturing, and cable-ready hysteria. 15628. robertjayb - 4/13/2001 3:53:54 PM Dubya attracts outside agitators to peaceful central Texas... 15629. vonKreedon - 4/13/2001 3:54:57 PM 15630. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 4:02:12 PM VK 15631. Francis Urquhart - 4/13/2001 4:03:39 PM Syllabus Correction 15632. jexster - 4/13/2001 4:13:49 PM Lies, Damned Lies and a BushShit Budget 15633. bbb - 4/13/2001 4:41:40 PM "Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon" . II will feature EP-3E as the "Hidden Dragon" 15634. bbb - 4/13/2001 4:42:32 PM "Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon" was shown on the Continental flight to our 24 15635. bbb - 4/13/2001 4:44:25 PM Please don't boycott the movie "Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon" . 15636. bbb - 4/13/2001 4:45:09 PM Opps. 15637. bbb - 4/13/2001 4:47:44 PM What would Clinton do? 15638. concerned - 4/13/2001 5:15:36 PM NEW YORK (AP) - A dozen black activists Friday protested outside President Clinton's future office in Harlem, calling his move a last step toward a ''white takeover'' in the historically black neighborhood. 15639. CalGal - 4/13/2001 5:22:00 PM vK, 15640. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 5:38:38 PM "Malik Zulu Shabazz"? 15641. joezan - 4/13/2001 5:54:25 PM Very apt analogy, Cal. 15642. concerned - 4/13/2001 5:56:29 PM Isn't the 'shabazz' name and Malcolm X. related somehow? 15643. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 6:15:40 PM 15644. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 6:17:04 PM toys 15645. Ronski - 4/13/2001 6:23:44 PM Betty Shabazz was the wife of Malcolm X. She died several years ago in a fire set by her mentally disturbed grandson. 15646. joezan - 4/13/2001 6:24:32 PM The Widow Mrs. X goes by the name Betty Shabazz. 15647. vonKreedon - 4/13/2001 8:00:41 PM Franc/Cal - I don't know what to say. I make the assertion that if a very significant portion of your society has become so alienated that it believes itself to be targetted by the police forces of that society; I assert that this alienation is really the serious issue for for the society to address and both of you come back with analogies to giving in to the mob/militia. No, I am saying that we must take seriously the underlying causes for such mobs and militias. If a community as significant as the black community in our society feels as intensely alienated as the actions and statements coming from the black community indicate then this is a sign of serious trouble for our society. To deny this would seem an obvious case of....well, denial. 15648. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/13/2001 8:24:43 PM 15628. robertjayb - 4/13/01 8:53:54 PM 15649. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 9:16:50 PM THIS JUST IN: Bush and McCain Resolve Their Differences in a New Spirit of Political Cooperation! 15650. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 9:17:48 PM 15651. CalGal - 4/13/2001 9:29:34 PM vK, 15652. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 9:33:52 PM I take it you're with the lynch mob in here that feels that all thes police killings were thoroughly justified. 15653. CalGal - 4/13/2001 9:39:22 PM Actually, I have no idea. I do think that it's pretty dishonest to say that 15 black men have been killed by the cops without mentioning that 10 of them drew guns on the cops first. 15654. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 9:43:19 PM We're given NO information about white men. 15655. CalGal - 4/13/2001 9:53:26 PM It should be available--threatening to kill a cop is probably a crime. 15656. Cellar Door - 4/13/2001 10:16:07 PM Do any of us have the time or the money to comb through police files? 15657. joezan - 4/13/2001 11:02:43 PM I know you're just being your normal, ridiculous self, cellar - but PUHLEEEEEEZE! 15658. joezan - 4/13/2001 11:25:46 PM And, yes - Black neighborhoods (let's stop with the "inner-city" euphenism already) are regularly targeted for surveillance, police and parole sweeps, etc. 15659. vonKreedon - 4/14/2001 12:34:58 AM Cal writes, If black people are angry about something that is not, in fact, true, why should that be given any credence at all? 15660. vonKreedon - 4/14/2001 12:35:34 AM Cal also says, Who said anything about denial? That would be me, I'm the one who said anything about the state of denial that one must be in to take your position. To state that feelings and perceptions are not a real and vital part of the democratic process; that we can safely ignore the feelings and perceptions of a major community within our society, that we can stay safely hidden behind the truth we see revealed in the metrics we choose and the meaning we give them, this is denial. To ignore and not respond to alienation on the scale being expressed by the black community is to truly risk the guerrilla war that Joe uses as an excuse for the police killing blacks. To ignore the alienation and believe that any response to it is coddling the mob is to run down the road that leads us towards and Isreali/Palestinian style relations between the white and black portions of our society. 15661. joezan - 4/14/2001 1:06:59 AM vonK: 15662. joezan - 4/14/2001 1:09:58 AM In other words, vonK - that Black people feel so alienated is not the fault of the police. 15663. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 9:56:40 AM Message # 15660 15664. jexster - 4/14/2001 9:59:59 AM The Shame...oh the Shame!! 15665. jexster - 4/14/2001 10:06:58 AM Right-wing Bush-whackos sink to new depths of paranoia! 15666. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 10:09:22 AM In other words... I think part of the problem is my perception (and I think others) that the black community choses really weird neurotics (violent criminals) to rally behind. It seems to me the stuff that makes the news all the time, are not some act of racism against some poor innocent... it's always some act of "racism" against someone who pulled a gun on a cop. 15667. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 10:11:56 AM I think the white community has done it do themselves in some ways. They get worked up into a froth over problems that aren't problems... then things are done to solve these problems that weren't problems... and then nothing in particular changes about the problems that weren't problems. 15668. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 10:18:33 AM The school shootings are a problem... 15669. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 10:36:33 AM Cellar... I honestly want positive progress in race relations in this country... I apologize if I seem unsympathetic, but I am not. 15670. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 10:43:15 AM "The school shootings are a problem..." 15671. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 10:54:19 AM "Or all the support behind OJ Simpson... very questionable character, yet they completely backed him, damn the consequences." 15672. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 10:56:23 AM I just said a problem... not a crisis. 15673. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 11:00:45 AM Proliferation of weapons?... seems to be a word of the press making us paranoid. 15674. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:01:14 AM Back in the 60's Susan Sontag said "the white race is the cancer of civilization." 15675. jexster - 4/14/2001 11:02:06 AM Technically BBB is correct...a crisis is defined in my mind and by political scientists as involving both a serious value threat and a short time element thus the Cuban Missile Crisis but not the China Shame Crisis 15676. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 11:04:10 AM The word "problem" has been used throughout the discussion, and it is obviously a relative term. The question is when does an issue become enough of a society's problem or a community's problem to pay attention to it and work toward an improvement. School shootings have already reached that level of importance in many communities simply because of media attention, except in the few isolated places where these incidents have occurred. 15677. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:04:22 AM "Or all the support behind OJ Simpson... very questionable character, yet they completely backed him, damn the consequences." 15678. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 11:07:34 AM "And as we all know whenever a black person raises an objection to anything a white person does, then he's a racist." 15679. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:09:20 AM And that's because white racism is always that which is to be denied. 15680. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:13:12 AM The problem with this culture as a whole is that we don't have thinkers, just "spokesmen." 15681. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/14/2001 11:23:10 AM 15649. Cellar Door - 4/14/01 2:16:50 AM 15682. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 11:23:21 AM "Or all the support behind OJ Simpson... very questionable character, yet they completely backed him, damn the consequences." 15683. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 11:37:42 AM 3i3b, 15684. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:41:05 AM "why was the press reporting such overwhelming support of his innocence?" 15685. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:45:05 AM One of these days I'd like to write something along the lines of "The Secret History of Los Angeles." It would cover everything from the riots following the Simi Valley verdict straight through to the O.J. trial. I was there at Camp O.J. when the verdict came down, you know. 15686. mgleason - 4/14/2001 11:48:18 AM Hey, for a long time I was one of those people who thought OJ innocent. Given what's come out about the LAPD, the idea's not so far-fetched. 15687. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:51:24 AM Uh, no, it IS far-fetched. The LAPD's deference to OJ was part of the problem. They were practically a limo service for him in hours after the murders. 15688. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 11:53:13 AM Since we're validating peoples perceptions... 15689. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 11:56:46 AM What exactly does "get to be white" mean. 15690. mgleason - 4/14/2001 11:58:19 AM Well, you might get to be an honorary white person, Cellar, for a time, but you're never really white. Just like I'll never be white because I'm 'Hispanic,' even though all of my grandparents and my father are from Spain. 15691. concerned - 4/14/2001 12:31:26 PM That's ok mgleason. I may be become an honorary black or hispanic because some of my ancestors washed up on the shores of Ireland from the Spanish Armada, but I'll never really be black or hispanic. 15692. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 12:33:07 PM What exactly does "get to be white" mean. 15693. mgleason - 4/14/2001 12:35:46 PM Ah, yes. The 'black Irish' fairy tale. Chalk it up to being a Celt, Concerned. The Irish may be considered white in this country, but not in England. 15694. concerned - 4/14/2001 12:39:56 PM That's my Irish background: black Irish. And not very Celtic looking (Celts were a Germanic tribe). 15695. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 12:41:01 PM Tyrone Power! 15696. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 12:49:44 PM "...but I'll never really be black or hispanic." 15697. mgleason - 4/14/2001 12:52:33 PM From the Encyclopedia Britannica: 15698. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 12:55:29 PM And they weren't Germanic. 15699. mgleason - 4/14/2001 12:59:28 PM Please delete the extra 'they' in my last paragraph. 15700. iiibbb - 4/14/2001 1:10:15 PM but not all (or even most) whites get to "enjoy privilege at the highest level". 15701. mgleason - 4/14/2001 1:11:55 PM The Myth of the Black Irish, from the Irish Centre for Migration Studies. 15702. CalGal - 4/14/2001 1:17:18 PM vK, 15703. concerned - 4/14/2001 1:17:38 PM From the Globe: 15704. concerned - 4/14/2001 1:25:25 PM The Black Irish also could share Pictish blood (pre-Celtic inhabitants of Ireland). 15705. jexster - 4/14/2001 2:16:43 PM After lavishing time, attention, and millions of poopstained cash on the Golden State only to get his imbecilic butt kicked 15706. jexster - 4/14/2001 2:32:32 PM He is SO bad and the Poopstained Legions SO terrified of losing the Senate that 15707. concerned - 4/14/2001 2:32:36 PM US urged to sell weapons to Taiwan 15708. concerned - 4/14/2001 2:41:23 PM Re. 15705 - 15709. jexster - 4/14/2001 2:41:54 PM Thanks Concerned..the Moron-in-Chief is about to get his drooping tits in a wringer. 15710. JudithAtHome - 4/14/2001 2:49:38 PM concerned: 15711. jexster - 4/14/2001 3:40:46 PM Even a Moron knows where he is not wanted Concerned! 15712. concerned - 4/14/2001 3:56:54 PM From the Doug Fiedor Report: 15713. concerned - 4/14/2001 3:57:54 PM For instance, "ATF agents were caught on tape assaulting a local television cameraman after he had filmed their retreat from the initial raid on the Branch Davidian complex." Yup! Assault and battery with show and tell available. There's more, though. The ATF agents also committed federal felonies by lying to federal investigators. U.S. Marshals pointed out the offense to Justice, but Reno gave them a free pass. 15714. concerned - 4/14/2001 3:58:14 PM Lynch also points out that some of those killers, suspended after misdeeds at the Ruby Ridge incident, later turned up killing again at the Waco incident. One of these jerks was eventually sentenced to prison for destroying evidence and lying to investigators about his role in the Ruby Ridge cover-up. 15715. jexster - 4/14/2001 6:13:18 PM Political cartoons, radio high jinks and satiric skits that feature Chinese characters with thick glasses, buck teeth and heavy Asian accents sound like a throwback to an era when American society lacked sophistication and tolerance. 15716. jexster - 4/14/2001 6:15:33 PM Easter condolences to ThomasD who, from his last post, appears more than a bit concerned over the upcoming execution of this cousin Tim. 15717. jexster - 4/14/2001 6:19:17 PM In the midst of a so-called "energy crisis" 15718. vonKreedon - 4/14/2001 7:19:28 PM 15719. CalGal - 4/14/2001 8:16:03 PM vK, 15720. CalGal - 4/14/2001 8:17:57 PM And before Cellar comes along and screams racism--speaking of warped perspectives--my first paragraphs in that post are using vK's absurd dodges. They aren't my opinions about urban blacks. 15721. LadyChaos - 4/14/2001 8:22:22 PM The civil rights movement is dead. It has been hijacked by political ambulance chasers, like Al Sharpton, who have discredited the black community's legitimate grievances by crying "Whitey!" far too many times. 15722. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 9:01:31 PM "They aren't my opinions about urban blacks." 15723. jexster - 4/14/2001 9:02:22 PM That's no answer LC. 15724. concerned - 4/14/2001 9:32:50 PM Re. 15674 - 15725. concerned - 4/14/2001 9:34:13 PM I should have posted, instead of 'blacks', 'a black person' above. 15726. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 9:41:17 PM Whatever the problem is, and whether it's one of perception or a reality, it's obvious the views of plenty of white people about it are uninformed and unconcerned, which highlights that the alienation is indeed real. That's ok, though, because segregation is alive and well. You're safe from it. 15727. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 10:43:04 PM "Perhaps cllrdr can explain why blacks, on an individual basis, is almost 50 times more likely to physically assault a white person than the other way around?" 15728. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 10:44:13 PM I find the point Mathers is making on that score fairly obvious, arky. 15729. joezan - 4/14/2001 10:46:49 PM I think we've come to a pretty sad point in our online history when intelligent grownups are quoting eminem in an attempt to make a serious point, myself. 15730. arkymalarky - 4/14/2001 10:54:09 PM Tough, Joe. I shake my head every time I hear someone quoting something from Bill O'Reilly or Drudge. Sometimes things are said by people you don't personally approve of that still might be worth hearing. 15731. joezan - 4/14/2001 11:01:01 PM Just received the following in an e-mail from an infrequent Motie...and, actually, I think I posted this ditty once before, back in fray days. 15732. joezan - 4/14/2001 11:25:49 PM Rut Ro... 15733. Cellar Door - 4/14/2001 11:59:14 PM Theimmunity deal held tight in death's still hands was proof of human sin. 15734. joezan - 4/15/2001 12:10:12 AM arky: 15735. JJBiener - 4/15/2001 1:24:24 AM What bothers me is the assumption that the "black community" speaks with one voice and that a few dozen or even a few hundred people speak for all blacks or even a majority of them. The news media focuses on the the one causing the trouble. They ignore the fact that there were hundreds of thousands of blacks who did not riot. I prefer to look at the message they are sending rather than focus on a relative few who sieze on this opportunity to cause havoc. 15736. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 9:19:38 AM I agree, JJ. Though despite his Clintonesque ability to take people's dislike for him and do stupid things to turn it into absolute hatred and give them ammunition, like Clinton Jackson has done enough good that I hate to throw him into the same camp as the likes of Sharpton. 15737. joezan - 4/15/2001 9:48:48 AM That was more a tease than anything else, arky - although I don't find anything eminem has to say to be of any value. 15738. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 9:55:00 AM >"They ignore the fact that there were hundreds of thousands of blacks who did not riot." 15739. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 10:00:54 AM I think we should keep any group of rioters in their place... Black or white, mob violence is mob violence. 15740. joezan - 4/15/2001 10:07:29 AM No, cellar - not "Black people". 15741. JudithAtHome - 4/15/2001 10:13:09 AM I know I'm breaking into an on-going conversation but I just saw Brett Hume trying to play Clinton on Fox News....he is spinning what an "apology is". And he's doing it in all seriousness...I guess all those caustic comments about Clintons definition of "what is is" are just as dust in the wind. 15742. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/15/2001 10:16:35 AM The NEW McCarthyism . . . 15743. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 10:17:37 AM "That was more a tease than anything else, arky..." 15744. LadyChaos - 4/15/2001 10:20:09 AM jexster, Message # 15723, 15745. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 10:30:38 AM You don't get the message out the general population by rioting. I think average americans rapidly disavow themselves of causes that engage in violence... heck I'd even argue that average americans have gotten as cynical about protests in general as they do about telemarketers. 15746. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 10:58:27 AM I wish you hand an inkling of what Police State pressure tactics are like. I wish it were possible to convey to you the fact that the police treat ALL African-Americans as criminal suspects AT ALL TIMES. 15747. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 11:21:37 AM Then why does the African American community get just as indignant when actual black criminals are treated like criminal suspects? 15748. JudithAtHome - 4/15/2001 11:37:27 AM I don't know how many were criminals but according to the Chief of Police of the city on ABC just now, 13 of the 15 were armed. 15749. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 11:45:48 AM Armed with what? Here it L.A. you're considered "armed" if you happen to have a newspaper in your hands. 15750. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 11:51:16 AM A friend of mine was telling me a story last night about when he used to work for a environmental geology firm. They were investigating some groundwater contamination associated with some company, which happened to be right next to an FDIC building. 15751. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 11:55:20 AM Ok.. in LA... but in Cinncinati... how many were only 'armed' with newspapers? 13 of 15 had either guns, or a bludgeoning object more substantial than a newspaper. 15752. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 12:19:07 PM "You don't get the message out the general population by rioting." 15753. JudithAtHome - 4/15/2001 12:21:28 PM Armed with what 15754. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 12:24:19 PM I don't have a decent answer... 15755. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 12:26:59 PM Yes, I know that. But when a disenfranchised group wants attention, no matter who they are, there's a reason they use violence. People won't bat an eye without it. Does society owe them any attention? If so, in what manner do they get it? 15756. JudithAtHome - 4/15/2001 12:31:17 PM But do you think negative attention accomplishes anything good? 15757. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 12:59:16 PM Ngative attention can do good... but if you're part of the negative then I doubt it does any good. Also if you're directing that negative energy on people who are basically innocent bystanders... you've totally ruined your cause. 15758. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 1:07:47 PM That still doesn't answer the question. What recourse do large groups of people in a country have for getting their grievances addressed when they have no money or strong organization or political clout? What is the alternative? You're acting as if that question is supporting violence, when I'm asking for an effective alternative that would accomplish the same or more. 15759. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 1:13:28 PM When the Civil Rights movement used nonviolent means to accomplish its goals there were specific rights black Americans were denied which were effectively challenged by those methods. You make us sit at the back of the bus, we boycott the buses. You refuse to serve us at counters, we sit there anyway. The media attention from these actions was a big benefit to the cause the protesters were representing. The current causes of the anger and grievances aren't as easily identified or as easily protested using civil disobedience. 15760. robertjayb - 4/15/2001 1:51:18 PM Our Wiz! When he is good he is very, very good...and when he is bad he screws the margins. 15761. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 1:51:49 PM If I had a good idea I'd be famous... 15762. JudithAtHome - 4/15/2001 1:54:25 PM I'm just posting here to move the margins back..I hope. 15763. JudithAtHome - 4/15/2001 1:55:13 PM I loved the Wizs picture commentary, though! 15764. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 2:04:33 PM I assume everyone here who doesn't use their real name is famous. 15765. robertjayb - 4/15/2001 2:09:22 PM The Houston Chronicle has an Easter basket of Enron/Ken Lay articles sure to please Jexster. Be advised these are longish pieces and the Chronk requires registration for access. 15766. vonKreedon - 4/15/2001 2:14:45 PM Joe states the point, Of course there is a problem when such a large demographic feels alienated., but then backs away from it, But why is it, when people start burning down their neighborhoods, dragging people out of their cars and beating them because of their race, engaging in mass larceny in broad daylight, etc, etc - because of some stupid, easily confirmed misconception ... 15767. vonKreedon - 4/15/2001 2:16:10 PM Those arguing against taking the black response seriously not only argue that the black communities perceptions of their alienation are clearly wrong, but that the black communities leaders are, in JJ's words, ...self-appointed rabble rousers who seek to gain personal power at the expense of others of their race... Or as Joe says, merely not taking part in a riot does not absolve the Black leadership of the sin of failing to lead in a constructive way... Here we have members of the white community pontificating from a distance, telling the black community that not only are they seriously misperceiving their actual condition, but that their leaders are illigitimate! This is hardly the way to resolving the issues presented by the Cincy riots, it is rather a way to ensure that there is an escalation to the violence. 15768. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 2:21:06 PM I don't use my real name because I assume one of you is psychotic. 15769. arkymalarky - 4/15/2001 2:23:12 PM hahaha. Well, just rest assured it isn't us...I mean me. 15770. vonKreedon - 4/15/2001 2:27:10 PM 15771. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 2:52:13 PM VK I agree that outright dismissal of their perceptions is an inherently doomed approach... but what are we supposed to do? 15772. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 2:52:34 PM What could I do about his perception? 15773. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 2:57:47 PM Here's another scenario... say I'm walking down the street where I used to go to school. This area of town was known to not be a great place to be by yourself after dark. 15774. CalGal - 4/15/2001 3:25:29 PM I will then wait until you express an actual concrete opinion of your own to discuss further with you Cal. 15775. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 4:17:13 PM You're talking about one-on-one situations, iiibbb. And doing so in a kind of vaccum. We "know" that you're not a racist. Just a victim of circumstance. Likewise I'm not a crack dealer, but that doesn't stop the LAPD from treating me like I am. 15776. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 4:42:23 PM My TT pal R. Jenkins just posted this: 15777. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 5:06:41 PM A query Cellar... I remember seeing some documentaries about black neighborhoods in LA that basically took it upon themselves to take their neighborhoods back from criminals in their midst. How do the cops act in these neighborhoods? 15778. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 5:15:06 PM "I remember seeing some documentaries about black neighborhoods in LA that basically took it upon themselves to take their neighborhoods back from criminals in their midst. How do the cops act in these neighborhoods?" 15779. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 5:23:48 PM "The point about the individual experiences I had is that the people actually labeled me racist. I can't help but project this into larger scales, just like your experience with racists can't keep you from projecting it to larger scales." 15780. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 5:24:10 PM I thought LA, and California in general, is the vertitable parthanon of enlightened liberal thought? How is it with the power they supposively wield there, that I always get the impression it's the most polarized? 15781. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 5:26:48 PM LA and California were in the hands of the Republican party, until very very recently. 15782. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 5:33:26 PM Why aren't the politicians projecting a little power on the LA police? Surely the state government could use the state bureau of investigation to independently root this kind of thing out. 15783. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 5:36:28 PM I find it hard to believe, given the incredibly liberal laws there, that the republicans have had an iron grip on power. 15784. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 5:46:14 PM "I find it hard to believe, given the incredibly liberal laws there, that the republicans have had an iron grip on power." 15785. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 5:48:05 PM "Why aren't there any intrepid young reporters using hidden cameras like the 60 minuts of yor?" 15786. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 5:54:07 PM Then we should buy everyone video cameras instead of this tax cut... 15787. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 5:56:07 PM Everybody except Ace. 15788. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 6:05:41 PM Yes... I've seen his thread. 15789. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 6:09:25 PM Exactly. 15790. iiibbb - 4/15/2001 6:27:45 PM I have to believe that if you had enough volume of tape... it would get shown somewhere... 15791. Cellar Door - 4/15/2001 6:38:23 PM "Actually they got caught in their own crossfire when they unloaded their entire clips at some dude who was effectively trying to commit suicide by pulling a toy gun out after instigating a confrontation with them." 15792. joezan - 4/15/2001 10:02:43 PM Judith - Message # 15753: 15793. wonkers2 - 4/15/2001 10:04:02 PM Bob Dornan and Duke Cunningham, two of the biggest assholes in the 104th Congress. Where does California come up with these guys? Cunningham is still there, as I recall. 15794. JJBiener - 4/15/2001 10:22:40 PM Cellar - Once again you continue to regard black America as pack of animals/children who require leaders to "keep them in their place." 15795. JJBiener - 4/15/2001 10:28:21 PM Cellar - Better to just go on about how it's a figment of that underdeveloped black imagination. 15796. JJBiener - 4/15/2001 10:36:26 PM vonK - Here we have members of the white community pontificating from a distance, telling the black community that not only are they seriously misperceiving their actual condition, but that their leaders are illigitimate! 15797. JJBiener - 4/15/2001 10:38:00 PM iiibbb - He called my behavior toward him racist, but I told him it had nothing to do with him being black.. I just thought he was a prick. 15798. joezan - 4/15/2001 10:39:36 PM vonK - Message # 15766: 15799. joezan - 4/15/2001 11:41:00 PM 15800. joezan - 4/15/2001 11:55:29 PM 15801. jexster - 4/16/2001 8:10:46 AM In 1999 Californians spent $8 billion on electricity. This year the figure could reach $70 Billion. (Tax Cut? Don't make me laugh!) 15802. jexster - 4/16/2001 8:12:14 AM 15803. Dusty - 4/16/2001 8:25:10 AM jexster 15804. Dusty - 4/16/2001 8:39:50 AM As I mentioned before, I'm getting disgusted with Krugman's sellout. He used to be reasonable for a liberal. Now he's a crass handmaiden for the liberal ignoscenti. 15805. jexster - 4/16/2001 9:21:25 AM The key is every man, woman, child Dusty. 15806. jexster - 4/16/2001 9:33:44 AM Yes Dusty the problem DID start when Clinton was in office beginning last August as a matter of fact. 15807. LadyChaos - 4/16/2001 9:36:11 AM iiibbb, re Message # 15780, 15808. CalGal - 4/16/2001 10:08:17 AM CA created this problem; let CA solve it. 15809. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 10:10:47 AM Thank you, Lady C! 15810. jexster - 4/16/2001 10:11:55 AM Here Here LC....oh how I love LA, let me count the ways! 15811. jexster - 4/16/2001 10:13:58 AM Noticed and posted an article from Yahoo on the "buyer's cartel" concept. I forget the damn guy's name but he spent his life at UC Irvine studying the economics of electricity. 15812. LadyChaos - 4/16/2001 10:14:08 AM Britain deregulated "properly" and pays exorbitantly high power prices. 15813. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 10:16:10 AM "This is not a figment of anyone's imagination. It is a conscious distortion of the truth by people seeking personal gain at the expense of the community as a whole." 15814. LadyChaos - 4/16/2001 10:18:09 AM Otoh, anti-trust theory tells us that cartel or oligopoly pricing results in wasted resources, as well. The trick is to find a price that reflects a competitive market price. Obviously, we can't have this with the current infrastructure, and Krugman addressed this recently by saying that we need short-term price caps. 15815. jexster - 4/16/2001 10:18:45 AM My BIG problem with state media coverage of the electricity crisis is that it mostly tries to make the simple complex and in so doing misses the point - RIP OFF electricity pricing. 15816. CalGal - 4/16/2001 10:19:59 AM If it's all about how we spend scarce resources, shouldn't higher energy prices be a good thing? 15817. rubberducky - 4/16/2001 10:22:18 AM ANYONE that says Cinci is a better city to be in that Columbus is fulla shit, imo. 15818. CalGal - 4/16/2001 10:24:44 AM Other than Krugman and an EXCELLENT show on KQED's This Week in Northern California, 15819. jexster - 4/16/2001 10:24:58 AM A case can be made that electricity regulation is a good thing because unlike telecomm, airlines, banking etc. electric power production and distribution generally does not respond to the risk-reward dynamic. 15820. robertjayb - 4/16/2001 11:54:27 AM jexster, 15821. Dusty - 4/16/2001 12:13:56 PM jexster 15822. Dusty - 4/16/2001 12:16:37 PM jexster 15823. Ronski - 4/16/2001 12:19:27 PM Is China right? 15824. Dusty - 4/16/2001 12:20:34 PM CalGal 15825. Dusty - 4/16/2001 12:24:23 PM jexster Message # 15819 15826. labwabbit - 4/16/2001 12:25:49 PM We're sorry that you don't train your fighter pilots better. As a token of our apology, here's a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000. 15827. Dusty - 4/16/2001 12:29:10 PM Ronski 15828. Wombat - 4/16/2001 12:32:20 PM Dusty: 15829. vonKreedon - 4/16/2001 12:36:51 PM 15830. vonKreedon - 4/16/2001 12:45:50 PM 15831. bubbaette - 4/16/2001 12:46:06 PM Knee-jerk regulators always whine that this situation is different. Usually, there is a modicum of sense to the argument, such as in health care, and natural monopolies. But the arguments a re seldom persuasive, just feel-good excuses to rationalize a power grab by the state. 15832. bubbaette - 4/16/2001 12:47:18 PM that should be $1.69. $69 per gallon is no bargain. 15833. Dusty - 4/16/2001 1:02:40 PM Ronski 15834. Ronski - 4/16/2001 1:09:12 PM Dusty, 15835. Dusty - 4/16/2001 1:09:47 PM bubbaette 15836. JJBiener - 4/16/2001 1:34:36 PM Cellar - In J.J.'s world Blacks are backward children easily exploited by shysters. 15837. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 1:38:49 PM My posts are an honest reply to your posts. 15838. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 1:39:33 PM It's very clear which blacks you find acceptable and which you don't. 15839. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 1:42:17 PM There is a small group of people who want to be perceived as leaders who are making claims about the "black community" without have any legitimate constiuency. I am telling you that you have been suckered in a con game. 15840. jexster - 4/16/2001 1:48:28 PM Bad news for Freeper JoeZ...the Kitty Hawk will not be sending its planes into harm's way just so you can feel better about the craven yellow belly Bush. 15841. Dusty - 4/16/2001 1:50:40 PM CD 15842. jexster - 4/16/2001 1:51:18 PM Ahh false consciousness - god I HATE false consciousness... 15843. LadyChaos - 4/16/2001 1:54:56 PM I don't think that blacks have been "duped" in any sense of the word. I do, however, believe that whites have been far too solicitous in allowing charges from black leaders to go unanswered. For example, when Lionel Tate's mother rejected a very generous plea offer for her son, saw her son convicted, and saw him sentenced to the mandatory sentence after having been convicted, she was suddenly calling in Johnny Cochran and making the case of her son into a black vs. white civil rights issue. I think that white community leaders, as well as leaders of all communities, need to speak up in answering such charges. By allowing such positioning to go unchallenged, it allows more room for future license with the truth. 15844. JJBiener - 4/16/2001 1:57:48 PM Cellar - My posts are an honest reply to your posts. 15845. jexster - 4/16/2001 1:59:54 PM Knee-jerk regulators always whine that this situation is different. Usually, there is a modicum of sense to the argument, such as in health care, and natural monopolies. But the arguments a re seldom persuasive, just feel-good excuses to rationalize a power grab by the state. 15846. Ronski - 4/16/2001 2:00:46 PM (Pani: I made koprova vomacka Saturday night, and gave some to my parents. My father will enjoy it, I'm sure.) 15847. Dusty - 4/16/2001 2:03:21 PM jexster 15848. jexster - 4/16/2001 2:03:24 PM Ya know this idea of negro-as-child is not new nor is it confined to one or the other wings of what passes for a political spectrum in this country. 15849. LadyChaos - 4/16/2001 2:06:00 PM jex, 15850. jexster - 4/16/2001 2:08:48 PM But you see Dusty, I don't have a one-sized fits all American Gothic weltanschlung that you seem to at least in this discussion. 15851. Ronski - 4/16/2001 2:10:59 PM I believe that's weltanschaung. 15852. jexster - 4/16/2001 2:13:51 PM I believe you spell German better than I Ronsk. 15853. JJBiener - 4/16/2001 2:18:59 PM Jex - I don't have a one-sized fits all American Gothic weltanschlung 15854. jexster - 4/16/2001 2:29:08 PM I have tried JJB but alas the condition is incurable. 15855. Wombat - 4/16/2001 2:33:32 PM Weltanschlong? 15856. JudithAtHome - 4/16/2001 2:42:43 PM Dictionary shows it thus: weltanschauung. 15857. Ronski - 4/16/2001 2:50:21 PM That's right. Just as it sounds. 15858. JudithAtHome - 4/16/2001 2:52:40 PM Looks weird with two "u"s, though. Is it show(as in now) -ung 15859. JudithAtHome - 4/16/2001 2:54:41 PM Ah, never mind... 15860. Dusty - 4/16/2001 3:14:40 PM jexster 15861. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:09:17 PM Well in point of fact you did with that smarmy reference to state power but why quibble? 15862. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:13:14 PM WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Congressional Democrats on Monday stepped up the attack on President Bush (news - web sites)'s tax cut and spending plans, accusing him of ignoring defense and other costs that could lead to budget deficits...[Grand Old Poopstainers in the House promise even larger tax cuts!} 15863. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:14:51 PM WeltsOnSchlong 15864. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:20:42 PM Dusty...I could be wrong but I venture that you are old enough to recall the First Energy Crisis when gas prices did go from a few bits to nearly 2 bucks....not 3... 15865. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:23:52 PM Dusty...I could be wrong but I venture that you are old enough to recall the First Energy Crisis when gas prices did go from a few bits to nearly 2 bucks....not 3... 15866. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:38:31 PM "Cincinnati is a textbook example of the legal blind eye locals have turned toward police violence. Since 1995, Cincinnati cops have gunned down 15 black males. During the same period, not a single white was killed by police. The latest black victim, 19-year-old Timothy Thomas, was unarmed. His big crime was that he failed to appear in court on misdemeanor charges...black leaders don't expect much to come of [the local prosecution]. That's why they want the feds to intervene. But they won't get much from them, either. …the Justice Department has done almost nothing to nail murderous cops. According to a 1999 report on police misconduct by Human Rights Watch,…in 1998 federal prosecutors brought excessive-force charges against police officers in less than 1 percent of the cases investigated by the FBI that involved allegations of police abuse… With ultraconservative [Attorney General] John Ashcroft…there's little hope that this will change anytime soon." 15867. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:39:21 PM In the aftermath of the downed U.S. spy plane, the Chinese apparently have found a new way to ridicule President [sic] Bush - a virtual pet modeled after him. 15868. jexster - 4/16/2001 5:49:18 PM Bush's corporate catnip 15869. Toenails - 4/16/2001 5:50:31 PM 15870. CalGal - 4/16/2001 5:58:06 PM Jex, please not so many in a row. 15871. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:00:57 PM 15872. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:04:42 PM Gray Davis is wrong, then. 15873. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:06:03 PM 15874. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:09:01 PM "It is relatively immune to market forces." 15875. dusty - 4/16/2001 6:09:40 PM jexster 15876. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:10:27 PM Good heavens, that's not even a distortion. You just made up an opinion and assigned it to me. 15877. dusty - 4/16/2001 6:12:30 PM BTW, I'm sure that some locations reacted differently than others, so if someone swears they paid $2 for a gallon for a short time in the 80's I'll believe them. there may even have been a black market station in the 70's charging that much, but in round terms, the price doubled once from 30¢ to 60¢ in the early 70's, then doubled again in the late 70's early 80's. It has recently taken another bump. 15878. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:13:19 PM 15879. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:14:09 PM Put on price controls keeping the price of power at sub-market levels and suddenly -- get this! -- the juice stops flowing to California, and utility companies go bankrupt. 15880. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:15:39 PM 15881. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:18:57 PM 15882. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:20:47 PM Ace, 15883. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:20:53 PM 15884. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:23:13 PM High prices leads voluntary conservation by customers leads to equilibrium. 15885. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:23:15 PM 15886. AceofSpades - 4/16/2001 6:24:20 PM 15887. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:24:27 PM No, prices don't necessarily DROP, CalGal. They simply reach a new equilibrium and stop rising. 15888. CalGal - 4/16/2001 6:24:45 PM Ummmm... increased costs? 15889. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:01:05 PM And thanks Robt for the hometown paper's truth tellin about Boy Bush's #1 buddy, one Houston-proud son of a bitch! 15890. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:03:24 PM Now perhaps, thanks to Robert's kindly assistance, Dusty will stop his endless "why pick on Whore-George and his #1 customer?" and get a freakin clue about the real world of US business. 15891. joezan - 4/16/2001 7:09:57 PM cellar - Message # 15888: 15892. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:20:21 PM Oh shit! 15893. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:23:29 PM Does it really amaze you JoeZ? 15894. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:29:13 PM In DC it was that high as I recall but again we digress into off-point piffle. 15895. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:30:47 PM Put on price controls keeping the price of power at sub-market levels and suddenly -- get this! -- the juice stops flowing to California, and utility companies go bankrupt 15896. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 7:32:25 PM "It's always amazed me that charlatans the likes of Leonard Jeffries, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson hold more sway in the debate over what to do about "Black disenfranchisement"..."alienation"...yadda, yadda, yadda, than do Blacks who are eminently more qualified, more lucid, more result-driven, and just plain more sane." 15897. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:36:22 PM I guess Ace missed my lecture in the Slow Thread on how oligopolies price and distort markets - the Cournot Equilibrium, the Stackelberg Model, Bertrand Model and all those graphs! 15898. joezan - 4/16/2001 7:37:49 PM Cellar proves my point. 15899. jexster - 4/16/2001 7:37:55 PM Amen Brotha Cellah! 15900. joezan - 4/16/2001 7:55:18 PM jex: 15901. jexster - 4/16/2001 8:03:48 PM Yea I quite agree JoeZ...Rush Limbaugh and Falwell are vastly more influential both in terms of their particular political subculture and WRT their influence on national politics than Jesse much less Sharpton ever were either in micro or macro terms. 15902. joezan - 4/16/2001 8:06:32 PM Case in point: 15903. joezan - 4/16/2001 8:15:18 PM And that's a foolish position to take in any debate, imo. 15904. jexster - 4/16/2001 8:22:19 PM Though I am not familiar with the incident, I know what you are talking about JoeZ and I am no fan of that stuff either but I don't let it upset me nor do I presume to substitute my particular cultural biases for blacks or for Hispanics (except Cubans) or Asians etc. 15905. jexster - 4/16/2001 8:28:43 PM I don't feel competent to speak to the same experience or audience that Jesse speaks with any more than I would feel comfortable lecturing a Japanese about Shinto. 15906. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 8:32:35 PM DOES JOHN LEWIS MEAN NOTHING TO YOU PEOPLE? 15907. CalGal - 4/16/2001 9:14:49 PM Interesting stat that hasn't been mentioned in the Cincinnatti case (at least that I've seen): 12 of the last 14 police officers killed have been killed by black men. 15908. joezan - 4/16/2001 9:21:30 PM jex: 15909. dusty - 4/16/2001 9:21:44 PM jexster 15910. joezan - 4/16/2001 9:22:30 PM As I said: The police are the ones that should be rioting. 15911. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 9:31:29 PM IDIOT!!! 15912. joezan - 4/16/2001 9:35:54 PM Excuse me...demonstrating their rage at this injustice. 15913. Cellar Door - 4/16/2001 9:45:31 PM No, that's not the idiocy I was referring to. 15914. jexster - 4/16/2001 10:53:22 PM 15915. jexster - 4/16/2001 10:54:20 PM 15916. jexster - 4/16/2001 11:01:20 PM I told you that my bill was de minimis...and rate rip off has not hit consumers directly - yet. 15917. jexster - 4/16/2001 11:02:32 PM FERC regs and the agency's role if any in the bankruptcy. 15918. jexster - 4/16/2001 11:04:55 PM And Dusty was right about oil prices.... 15919. Dusty - 4/17/2001 7:58:33 AM jexster 15920. Ronski - 4/17/2001 10:52:03 AM 15921. rubberducky - 4/17/2001 11:17:21 AM Hate Crimes? 15922. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 11:23:36 AM Gee aren't all crimes "Hate Crimes"? That's the pary line around here, no? 15923. rubberducky - 4/17/2001 11:27:39 AM did you read the link, CD? 15924. Indiana Jones - 4/17/2001 11:38:25 AM Cellar: If the law is on the books (i.e., extra punishment for crimes having an "ethnic" component), it ought to be enforced equally, regardless of the ethnic groups involved. I would, however, disagree with such a law. 15925. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/17/2001 11:38:58 AM . . .and speaking of "martyrs" . . . 15926. bubbaette - 4/17/2001 12:17:02 PM If Tim McVeigh thinks that his public execution will make him into a martyr, he has seriously underestimated the sensless enormity of his crime. I'm ambivalent about capital punishment, but to McVeigh I say "don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out." 15927. JJBiener - 4/17/2001 12:17:54 PM Cellar - Gee aren't all crimes "Hate Crimes"? That's the pary line around here, no? 15928. JJBiener - 4/17/2001 12:26:45 PM Indy - When one person assaults another, the punishment ought to be the same, whether or not they are of differing races and whether or not the assault is inspired by race hatred, class hatred, or just plain old personal hatred 15929. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 12:29:37 PM I agree. 15930. Indiana Jones - 4/17/2001 12:36:37 PM JJ: 15931. Dusty - 4/17/2001 12:48:19 PM JJBiener 15932. ButterfieldSwire - 4/17/2001 12:50:43 PM I remain ambivalent about hate crimes laws. On the one hand, it is certainly true that, under any sense of justice, assaulting a stranger because they're gay is much worse than assaulting you're neighbor because they have been playing they're stereo too loud. Anti-hate-crime arguments that as a matter of principle, criminal punishments should not be based on motive seem just laughable. 15933. vonKreedon - 4/17/2001 12:52:09 PM 15934. vonKreedon - 4/17/2001 12:57:58 PM Dusty - Your list is pretty correct, except for number three. The difference between random violence and targetted by group violence is that targetting the group is meant to threaten and marginalize a specific group in society. It's an act akin to civil war; it's one of the steps on the road to Holocaust and as such it is very much in societies interest to ensure that such behavior is dealt with more seriousness than random violence. 15935. Dusty - 4/17/2001 1:00:05 PM ButterfieldSwire 15936. Dusty - 4/17/2001 1:09:18 PM vonKreedon 15937. vonKreedon - 4/17/2001 1:16:27 PM Dusty - When the group affected is Everyone, then there is no political implication; because everyone is effected there is no division caused, no us/them alienation that has repercussions for the inclusion of all the communities in our society. If Christians were being targetted with violence in order to marginalize Christian participation in society that would have very different impact on society than if same amounts of people and property were attacked randomly. 15938. CalGal - 4/17/2001 1:19:15 PM When the group affected is Everyone, then there is no political implication 15939. Indiana Jones - 4/17/2001 1:21:36 PM On the one hand, it is certainly true that, under any sense of justice, assaulting a stranger because they're gay is much worse than assaulting you're neighbor because they have been playing they're stereo too loud. 15940. Ronski - 4/17/2001 1:23:00 PM I too remain ambivalent about hate crime laws. I would like to point out, however, that these laws were spreading around the country at the local and state levels without much objection, and covering such areas as race and religion. 15941. Autodaffy - 4/17/2001 1:26:45 PM There is something suspect in the notion that a crime should be more severely punished because it stikes fear in a "group," particularly if the offender never had any intention of doing harm to a "group." Why shouldn't I energize the white "group" over crimes committed by the lower class against the well to do? Let's put someone in prison for life if they steal from their betters. Doesn't this qualify as a group being threatened? Is this not the kind of thinking in hate crimes laws? 15942. Autodaffy - 4/17/2001 1:29:45 PM And let's not forget that charging someone with a hate crime allows the prosecution to bring in inflammatory and prejudicial evidence into the case, evidence that would not be allowed in a non-hate crimes case--and for very good reasons. 15943. Dusty - 4/17/2001 1:52:57 PM vonKreedon 15944. Ronski - 4/17/2001 2:13:52 PM 15945. AceofSpades - 4/17/2001 2:27:33 PM 15946. vonKreedon - 4/17/2001 2:51:48 PM 15947. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/17/2001 2:58:21 PM 15926. bubbaette 15948. Ronski - 4/17/2001 3:10:12 PM I agree that the harshest punishment for McVeigh would be to rot in jail. But, though I am not a big fan of the death penality owing to the possibility of offing the innocent, in this case (and a few others I can think of) I would defer to the wishes of the relatives of those who died, most of whom, I believe, want the guy gone from this plane of existence. 15949. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 3:29:52 PM WoW 15950. Autodaffy - 4/17/2001 3:44:21 PM Tim McVeigh has done more to bring liberals around to support the death penalty than any event or person in the 20th century. That's what I call a social force! 15951. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 4:00:30 PM I'm not sosure about that AD. Feelings are extremely mixed. To despise McVeigh is one thing. But no on wants to have his execution turn him in a "martyr." On the other hand a live McVeigh in prison could do irreparable harm as an active -- rather than merely symbolic -- force. 15952. Autodaffy - 4/17/2001 4:14:37 PM CD, 15953. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 4:18:45 PM Ahhh... 15954. Autodaffy - 4/17/2001 4:27:26 PM I'm no lawyer, but I believe that murder punishable by death requires intent, and there is, strictly speaking, no intent on the part of the state to commit murder via a wrongful death penalty. It's important to maintain this clarity if we are to oppose people who run around calling everything murder, like abortion, for example. I think Al Gore put it best back during the campaign when he said that the possibility of executing an innocent is something we simply accept as the price of having a death penalty. 15955. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 4:33:17 PM "I sense via the humor in that comment that deep down you respect his independence and intelligence." 15956. Ronski - 4/17/2001 4:37:52 PM Cellar, 15957. Autodaffy - 4/17/2001 4:44:02 PM Cellar, 15958. JudithAtHome - 4/17/2001 5:10:20 PM sooner or latter, when he grows up, he'd have to confront and deal with the heinousness of his act of depravity. 15959. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/17/2001 5:33:25 PM I respectfully disagree J@H , et al. 15960. JudithAtHome - 4/17/2001 5:39:08 PM I think after three or four decades in solitary, his awareness will increase and his consciousness would change. 15961. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 5:51:44 PM Let's find an acceptable compromise... 15962. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 5:56:06 PM Colectively, we become McVeigh when we put him to death for his crime. 15963. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 6:01:25 PM These people are animals. Play your psychiatric mumbo jumbo; your repressed Christian sense of forgiveness; your love of consciousness-raising; and your clever punishment game on your own time, with your own loved ones at risk. 15964. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 6:05:14 PM Put them down, and put them down quick. Do not dally on their fates or their suffering, and the effect thereon upon your delicate egos, lest you make them persuasive celebrities. 15965. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 6:06:02 PM Or don't. 15966. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 6:09:10 PM My God. A retarded half-wit like Wizard has gotten me emotional. My apologies for having lost my composure. 15967. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 6:30:04 PM So you can feel better about yourself. 15968. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 6:35:43 PM We cannot control the furies or our fate completely. But when the instrument of our misery stands before us, with blood on his hands and an impish grin to complement, and yet, to make the mealy and the mushy feel comfortable, we are unable to exact what is right and just and natural, and worse, we sweat in the factory to pay for the incarceration of this murderous sprite, and even when the foul beast murders again (some nameless prison guard, some poor, thin young drug dealer), we stll cannot act. 15969. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 6:39:26 PM #15968 15970. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 6:39:51 PM "I had also assumed that if you really disliked him you would have attacked what he says, as opposed to offering humorous, mild, allusively vague, and otherwise unpersuasive personal attacks on him." 15971. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 6:42:38 PM What we are really talking about is weak knees, modern me-ism, and a dollop of anti-establishment foolishness. 15972. CalGal - 4/17/2001 6:42:52 PM I don't think we "become" McVeigh when we kill him. I don't think I am mealy or mushy. But I will never support the death penalty. I don't think it either helps or hurts, despite all the rhetoric on both sides. 15973. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 6:43:12 PM Take a freakin pill. 15974. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 6:43:20 PM "I had a week-long trial in Oklahoma City. One mullett-head put a stake in the heart of that town. Go there. Then, after you see the pictures and toys and pacifiers and flowers and diaries attached to the chain link fence at the site, come back, and tell me that all the families who seek McVeigh's punishment by death, are collectively . . . just like him." 15975. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 6:43:49 PM Oppps.. 15976. JudithAtHome - 4/17/2001 6:44:22 PM FU: 15977. Francis Urquhart - 4/17/2001 6:47:09 PM It was awful. The most awful thing I had ever seen. 15978. Cellar Door - 4/17/2001 6:48:59 PM I think the Death Penalty in general and the specifics of McVeigh need to be regarded separately. 15979. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 6:50:50 PM Left to the devices of the individual(s) to decide what the reference point to a new beginning must be to a future determined by senslessness. Senselessness perpetuated. 15980. AceofSpades - 4/17/2001 7:01:43 PM 15981. JudithAtHome - 4/17/2001 7:11:04 PM Evidently, we are the People... 15982. labwabbit - 4/17/2001 9:21:53 PM First grade class in Brooklyn comes in from recess. 15983. jexster - 4/17/2001 11:50:44 PM 15984. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/17/2001 11:50:52 PM 15961. labwabbit - 4/17/01 10:51:44 PM 15985. jexster - 4/17/2001 11:53:41 PM Oops... 15986. jexster - 4/17/2001 11:54:47 PM OOOO Judith! 15987. JJBiener - 4/17/2001 11:55:28 PM Wiz - As always, he slyly distorts other's posts into the projections and droppings from his own petty squirrel cage of a mind. 15988. jexster - 4/17/2001 11:58:25 PM WRT the Deadly Dose, I have heard only one semi-convincing argument FOR the death penalty and that one argument only from one person, a crim law professor (UVa????) to wit... 15989. jexster - 4/17/2001 11:59:26 PM JJB.. 15990. jexster - 4/18/2001 12:06:13 AM DUH-bya's Screen Saver - GET IT NOW!! 15991. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 4:05:12 AM 15992. Dusty - 4/18/2001 7:34:58 AM Nit patrol - it's per 100,000 officers, not felons. 15993. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 7:45:17 AM 15994. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 9:19:14 AM Wiz 15995. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 9:22:24 AM jexster 15996. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:27:06 AM 15997. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:27:21 AM pimpin' for the millenial 15998. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:27:49 AM 15999. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:28:06 AM 16000. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 9:28:07 AM Good point. 16001. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:28:33 AM cocksucking little bitch cunt whore dirty douchebag asshole fartsucker 16002. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 9:28:50 AM I love getting the girl. 16003. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:28:55 AM 16004. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 9:31:40 AM dickface, 16005. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 9:42:59 AM I don't know. But it is sharp, witty, and oh so Mo'. 16006. Indiana Jones - 4/18/2001 9:48:35 AM It's a woman thing and doesn't concern "us." 16007. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 9:50:30 AM The hue and cry to save McVeighs hide now that the end is near mystifies me...how about the little kids he killed? I'll bet they would've liked an option. 16008. Indiana Jones - 4/18/2001 9:51:51 AM Speaking of which, FU seems a bit overwrought about the DP. 16009. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 9:57:56 AM I wonder if he has that little head shake thing going... 16010. Indiana Jones - 4/18/2001 10:01:09 AM I think he did when he was talking to Wiz. 16011. Indiana Jones - 4/18/2001 10:03:33 AM The attempt on Reagan 16012. Dusty - 4/18/2001 10:04:43 AM AceofSpades 16013. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:15:41 AM She was providng a contrast in the fictional women of today and the fictional women of yesterday by means of popular fiction of the day... Gone With The Wind and Brigit Jones Diary and the feminist tradition or lack thereof in both works. 16014. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 10:17:34 AM "As always, he slyly distorts other's posts into the projections and droppings from his own petty squirrel cage of a mind." 16015. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 10:20:40 AM "Tell me, Cellar and Jexster, does this mean that blacks are unqualified to serve as police officers?" 16016. Dusty - 4/18/2001 10:22:01 AM JudithAtHome 16017. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 10:22:41 AM "Only doofus liberals could be surprised to learn, or think it interesting to note, that vengeance -- yea, vengeance -- is an important and legitimate part of criminal punishment." 16018. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 10:22:43 AM Cellar - LOL! Actually "Petty Squirrel Cage of Your Mind" is a great song title. Hmmmm, I wonder what I could do with it. Do I have to give you a cowriting credit if I come up with something? 16019. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:23:22 AM Michel thought "Petty Squirrel Cage of Your Mind" was interesting at first, but director Norman Jewison nixed it in the idea. 16020. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 10:24:04 AM Cellar - You'd be peachy-keen for parking violations, Ace. 16021. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:24:40 AM 16022. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:25:55 AM Dusty: 16023. Dusty - 4/18/2001 10:26:10 AM They're under orders from the man. 16024. Dusty - 4/18/2001 10:27:10 AM JudithAtHome 16025. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:28:53 AM 16026. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 10:30:21 AM Ace - You have claimed that white cops are gunning for black suspects. That turns out to be not quite true -- black cops shoot black suspects at more than double the rate that black cops do. 16027. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 10:30:54 AM Where did those figures come from, Ace? Figures fly through the air on all sorts of things. CalGal (about whom many are still snarling over in TT) is a big one for charts and figures. We all recall "The Bell Curve" don't we. 16028. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:31:02 AM Dusty, I'll do what I can to assure that... 16029. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:31:29 AM 16030. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 10:31:50 AM Ace - The original series was from 1966 through 1968. 16031. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:32:20 AM 16032. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:34:57 AM 16033. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:35:20 AM Ace, I already suggested D&D and sexual inadequacy as a topic for you prize-winning column. Chew on that one for a bit... 16034. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 10:36:13 AM Ace - Blacks have to kill twice as many suspects to get half the recognition. 16035. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:37:58 AM "Ace, I already suggested D&D and sexual inadequacy as a topic for you prize-winning column. " 16036. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:38:46 AM 16037. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:40:31 AM 16038. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:41:21 AM I'm twice cursed, then...I don't watch "stories" and I don't write about them, either. 16039. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 10:42:30 AM "Black police officers are obviously sellouts to their race who are trying to buy their way into a position in white society by doing the WPS's dirty work for them. I mean, it is so obvious. How could you have missed it?" 16040. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:42:58 AM 16041. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:44:46 AM 16042. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:45:04 AM Hmmmm....Ace, you ARE the weakest link!GOODbye! 16043. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 10:45:15 AM OK Ace, you'reon. Let's say your figures are absolutely correct. What should be done? 16044. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:46:22 AM 16045. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 10:47:42 AM That was only my opening sentence, goofus! 16046. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:49:23 AM "Should police departments refuse to hire more black officers, or should they hire more of them, the better to eliminate the black population and therefore all crime?" 16047. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 10:50:20 AM 16048. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:08:52 AM Who needs cyborgs when ordinary cops will do. 16049. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:11:36 AM "Who needs cyborgs when ordinary cops will do." 16050. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/18/2001 11:13:05 AM 15994. Francis Urqufart - 4/18/01 2:19:14 PM 16051. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:15:07 AM 16052. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:18:57 AM "Well, yes, blacks are responsible for a very disproportionate share of street crime/violent crime" 16053. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:20:07 AM 16054. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 11:21:26 AM I imagine any man who had to defend "Collectively, we become what he [McVeigh] is, the minute he is put to death--that is to say, monsters of hate and beyond that, a mob of vengeance" would run straight to Webster's for solace. 16055. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:22:20 AM 16056. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:24:02 AM Why is it YOU have no problem with Clarence Thomas, J. C. Watts or Armstrong Williams? 16057. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:24:46 AM 16058. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:26:03 AM Obviously I repesent a threat of some sort. 16059. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:27:48 AM You have yet to explain why blacks shouldn't be eliminated from the population. 16060. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:28:13 AM 16061. jexster - 4/18/2001 11:28:32 AM Pat Robertson, head of the Christian Coalition and a major voice of the religious right, has angered fellow conservatives by describing China's "forced abortion" policy as a necessary means to control the communist nation's population. 16062. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:29:59 AM "I just don't understand why getting killed by a black Mayor is apparently okely-dokely with you." 16063. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:30:57 AM 16064. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:31:53 AM 16065. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:32:44 AM 16066. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:35:25 AM Kill you. 16067. Indiana Jones - 4/18/2001 11:36:33 AM Cellar does too represent a threat. 16068. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:36:49 AM 16069. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/18/2001 11:38:18 AM 16054. Francis Urquhart"...would run straight to Webster's for solace." 16070. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:38:50 AM 16071. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 11:41:40 AM Wiz 16072. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:41:45 AM "'m warning that we are giving him what he wants and letting him off from ever discovering the truth about himself -- a more just desert." 16073. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 11:42:09 AM Lordy, is that a keeper. 16074. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:42:12 AM "Oh, god. Why must you constantly ratchet up a minor discussion to talk of murder and such? 16075. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:43:05 AM 16076. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:43:47 AM "And gee, Cellar, once we get rid of all the cops, who'll be there to arrest Matthew Sheppard's murderers?" 16077. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:43:58 AM "Because that's the world I live in, about which you know precious little. " 16078. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:45:19 AM 16079. Indiana Jones - 4/18/2001 11:45:36 AM And don't forget rubbing shoulders with Catherine Zeta Jones. 16080. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:46:05 AM No dear, the world of Los Angeles. 16081. rubberducky - 4/18/2001 11:46:11 AM He threatens to appeal to my inner homo. 16082. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 11:46:17 AM Now I know the source for the term "mobster". 16083. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:46:21 AM Indy, 16084. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:47:59 AM "Yes, Cellar, that's right. White people can't commit crimes." 16085. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:48:06 AM 16086. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:49:27 AM 16087. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:51:23 AM I'm having lunch with Tsui Hark this afternoon. 16088. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:51:54 AM 16089. Ronski - 4/18/2001 11:53:12 AM Cellar, 16090. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:53:26 AM 16091. Ronski - 4/18/2001 11:53:47 AM And especially, don't ever run. 16092. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:53:51 AM That's right, Ace. Gotta get my homies together and go kick some "E!" butt!!!! 16093. rubberducky - 4/18/2001 11:54:19 AM wipes tear 16094. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:54:48 AM 16095. rubberducky - 4/18/2001 11:55:36 AM 10 bucks says CD isn't beaten by the cops 16096. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 11:55:47 AM "The man is a genuine American hero." 16097. rubberducky - 4/18/2001 11:56:37 AM er, 16098. Ronski - 4/18/2001 11:57:21 AM He'll be lucky to get frisked. 16099. rubberducky - 4/18/2001 11:58:17 AM Ronski, well, i was presupposing CD wouldn't be asking for that on the trip over 16100. jexster - 4/18/2001 11:59:42 AM State bill for power up 57%, Davis says 16101. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 11:59:57 AM 16102. jexster - 4/18/2001 12:08:00 PM Reliant Energy of Houston, the largest independent electricity generator in California, posted huge profits yesterday in what may portend another quarter of record gains for the power industry. 16103. jexster - 4/18/2001 12:09:50 PM That's My Bush! 16104. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 12:11:32 PM Ace - You have to excuse Cellar. His martyr complex kicks in from time to time. He is capitalizing on being 1/4 black at the moment because it is timely. He is also 1/2 Jewish, so he has thousands of years of martyrdom to enjoy. With that combination he get a real charge out of making white Christians feel guilty. He must be positively orgasmic by now. 16105. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 12:11:49 PM I HAVE been frisked before. Several times. No fun. 16106. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 12:13:24 PM You forgot that I'm gay too,J.J. 16107. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 12:15:14 PM When you consider all the horrible prejudice white people have to put up with day in and day out it's just something awful! 16108. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 12:16:14 PM 16109. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 12:18:11 PM 16110. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 12:18:35 PM 16111. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/18/2001 12:20:56 PM Smallman - Your priggish wit fails to disguise the smallism of your thinking, Francis. 16112. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 12:21:02 PM Oh no you don't, son. 16113. jexster - 4/18/2001 12:21:14 PM You don't understand squat. 16114. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 12:22:51 PM Actually he does understand how to squat. 16115. labwabbit - 4/18/2001 12:22:55 PM You don't understand squat. 16116. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 12:25:12 PM Wiz: 16117. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 12:37:05 PM Cellar - I HAVE been frisked before. Several times. 16118. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 12:39:00 PM Wiz 16119. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 12:48:16 PM 16120. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/18/2001 1:52:34 PM There’s security in derision — especially for fearful and angry little bottom-line, bottom-feeders like Francis and Ace. 16121. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 1:53:23 PM "Considering you willingness to lie to justify your opinion, how can we possibly accept this as fact?" 16122. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/18/2001 1:55:09 PM 16072. AceofSpades - 16123. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 1:55:40 PM 16124. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 1:56:39 PM 16125. JJBiener - 4/18/2001 2:01:50 PM Cellar - And I don't know what "lie" you're referring to. 16126. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 2:03:26 PM "Well, warden, we tried. For 60 years, we housed, fed, and counseled Mr. Gacy. And you know, even with the whole letter-to-the-minor problem, and his involvement in the gang-bang of the prison nurse, and that unfortunate letter he sent to one of his victim's parents, and even though we constantly were confiscating his child pornography, I think, in the end, just before he died of heart-related complications due to his obesity, we were getting to him. I sensed a glimmer of conscience. 16127. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:08:02 PM 16128. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:09:15 PM 16129. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 2:10:51 PM That would be cruel and unusual. The mere torture of conscience is punishment enough for Mr. Manson. Leave the man be. 16130. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:12:00 PM 16131. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 2:14:35 PM The hearinsg themselves seem extreme. Can't we just let him be? Hasn't he paid enough? 16132. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:16:40 PM 16133. CalGal - 4/18/2001 2:16:52 PM I don't think it matters what the criminal's reaction is to one punishment over the other. 16134. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 2:17:25 PM In the World of Wiz, all prisons are like the ones in The Shawshank Redemption, populated by fundamentally misunderstood types, nagged by conscience over their wrongdoing. And he so wants to be Brubaker. 16135. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:20:43 PM "In the World of Wiz, all prisons are like the ones in The Shawshank Redemption, populated by fundamentally misunderstood types, nagged by conscience over their wrongdoing. " 16136. labwabbit - 4/18/2001 2:22:09 PM The more this conversation travails...the more I like my ideas best. 16137. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:24:21 PM 16138. bbb - 4/18/2001 2:30:16 PM On the negotiation scene: 16139. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:31:29 PM 16140. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 2:32:50 PM Wiz: 16141. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:34:36 PM 16142. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 2:38:08 PM I'm not talking about simple serial killers...these guys are different in a new way. But of course, I can't be all clever and Pulitzer-worthy in my snappy comebacks and besides, I have to clean the bathroom sooooo.... 16143. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:40:22 PM 16144. bbb - 4/18/2001 2:42:05 PM On the ACCIDENT: 16145. CalGal - 4/18/2001 2:45:25 PM "simple" serial killers? 16146. labwabbit - 4/18/2001 2:45:37 PM I'm not talking about simple serial killers...these guys are different in a new way." 16147. Ronski - 4/18/2001 2:46:54 PM It has been suggested that all our surveillance planes carry signs warning that they make wide turns. 16148. Ronski - 4/18/2001 2:48:21 PM Hell, tell it to Alexander the Great, who slaughtered tons of people without remorse. 16149. bbb - 4/18/2001 2:49:05 PM DNC to Bush : " How about the poisonous arsenic in the drinking waters?" 16150. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:49:15 PM "Hell, tell it to Alexander the Great, who slaughtered tons of people without remorse. 16151. labwabbit - 4/18/2001 2:49:35 PM ..if you can't see my rear-view mirrors...I can't see you. 16152. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 2:49:57 PM 16153. bbb - 4/18/2001 2:50:46 PM 16147, 16154. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/18/2001 2:56:00 PM Judith, I’m only addressing the McVeigh case. I sense that deep down this kid doesn’t want to confront the truth, but may, at some point have the courage to face it. I agree, btw, about the others being irredeemable. Good luck with your bathroom, it’s a pity you can’t clean up some of the droppings of this lot. 16155. Francis Urquhart - 4/18/2001 3:02:06 PM Ah, yes. 16156. bbb - 4/18/2001 3:03:56 PM Tomorrow's negotiation scene: 16157. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 3:04:26 PM 16158. AceofSpades - 4/18/2001 3:06:11 PM "...I’ll leave it to those who suffer fools more gladly than I. " 16159. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 3:09:50 PM Oh, I doubt they're any more or less tolerant than your circle, Ace... 16160. jexster - 4/18/2001 6:49:53 PM Ace doesn't have any circles Judith save those under her eyes and the spare tires round her stomach. 16161. Cellar Door - 4/18/2001 6:50:54 PM "It is hard to take you seriously when you base a post on the claim that I am white. " 16162. jexster - 4/18/2001 6:51:38 PM Now from the Joke of the Mote to the Joke of the Nation....a Reuters headline that could easily be an episode of That's My Bush! 16163. jexster - 4/18/2001 6:54:30 PM 16164. jexster - 4/18/2001 6:54:47 PM A comedy tonite..... 16165. jonesatlaw - 4/19/2001 12:31:50 AM I am intrigued. JJ isn't white? Is that "I'm a Jew, not white" or is there something more to the "not whiteness?" 16166. jexster - 4/19/2001 2:08:29 AM Please don't kill me Guard Bear, ahm not wurth eyet 16167. Dusty - 4/19/2001 8:04:49 AM jonesatlaw 16168. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 8:25:43 AM Jones - Is that "I'm a Jew, not white" or is there something more to the "not whiteness?" 16169. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/19/2001 10:15:06 AM 16170. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:24:00 AM 16171. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:25:32 AM 16172. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:30:22 AM 16173. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:38:19 AM 16174. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/19/2001 10:38:22 AM Pop those boils, Ace and let your miserable frustration and hatred drain. 16175. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:40:55 AM 16176. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 10:42:26 AM "My skin is brown. A point that has been made clear to me my entire life." 16177. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:43:49 AM 16178. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 10:44:20 AM Ace has no intention of popping his boils. 16179. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 10:45:44 AM Bullets First. 16180. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:45:56 AM 16181. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:47:13 AM 16182. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:49:06 AM "So first you shoot us then the re-education camps for the corpses. " 16183. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 10:49:58 AM what i wanna know is why don't gays have the same 'rights' as the 'blacks (and some Hispanics)'?? 16184. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:51:12 AM 16185. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/19/2001 10:51:55 AM "Were I and forty of my friends to come into your neighborhood..." 16186. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:53:10 AM 16187. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 10:53:17 AM ok, Ace, that sounds good 16188. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 10:54:33 AM Not true. Francis Urquhart would love to be my friend. He sends me "Thinking of You" cards every other week. 16189. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:55:07 AM 16190. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 10:56:17 AM gotcha, i was eyeing much the same thing 16191. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:57:26 AM 16192. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 10:58:37 AM I live in a black neighborhood, Ace. 16193. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 10:59:16 AM 16194. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 11:01:18 AM it's on the list, Ace ... but remember i'm angry at the Corrupt Straight Police State, being a honkey myself. 16195. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:02:18 AM 16196. mgleason - 4/19/2001 11:02:25 AM RD, 16197. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:02:59 AM 16198. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 11:05:41 AM How do you look in a bowler? 16199. mgleason - 4/19/2001 11:08:45 AM I don't know what I was thinking; forgive me, mon cher. 16200. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:11:04 AM 16201. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:13:16 AM 16202. Ronski - 4/19/2001 11:13:42 AM I'm headed to Petrossian, myself. 16203. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 11:17:03 AM MG: 16204. Ronski - 4/19/2001 11:22:05 AM rubber, 16205. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:22:56 AM An influential energy task force headed by Vice President Cheney has broached the possibility of lifting some economic sanctions against Iran, Libya and Iraq as part of a plan to increase America's oil supply 16206. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:23:51 AM Oh please, don't tell me the Mote's Psychotic In Residence is about more of her tired fag bashing. 16207. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:24:16 AM Worthless fat, cowardly piece of crap 16208. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:26:40 AM 16209. Ronski - 4/19/2001 11:26:42 AM And fresh from midtown with my pockets bulging with beluga, I offer the latest from Gwartney and Lawson. 16210. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:27:48 AM 16211. Ronski - 4/19/2001 11:28:22 AM Track lighting, yuck. 16212. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/19/2001 11:28:36 AM 16213. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 11:30:11 AM actually, no, Ace. i've been playing the shit outta my PS2 lately 16214. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:31:42 AM Smile and slash 16215. Indiana Jones - 4/19/2001 11:33:42 AM Re 16212: Didn't the Beatles do that punchline a long time ago? 16216. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:34:11 AM 16217. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 11:37:13 AM Wowie Howie on Andy Pandy. 16218. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:41:30 AM Wow Ace..you are such the fat fuck. 16219. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:45:01 AM 16220. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 11:46:29 AM 16221. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:46:52 AM "It is time to set aside the old partisan bickering and finger-pointing and name-calling that comes from freeing parents to make different choices for their children."--Remarks on "parental empowerment in education," Washington, D.C., April 12, 2001 16222. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:50:00 AM Because a Brilliant Man Deserves a Brilliant Sitcom 16223. concerned - 4/19/2001 11:51:16 AM Bad news for reparations nuts and racist hate baiters 16224. Wombat - 4/19/2001 11:55:21 AM Great source, concerned. Crisply analytical and disinterested. 16225. Indiana Jones - 4/19/2001 11:56:11 AM Reagan as role model 16226. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:56:42 AM 16227. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:20:27 PM "Question for the board: Has there been a substantial change in what's emanating from the White House since Bush took over?" 16228. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:22:24 PM 16229. jexster - 4/19/2001 12:23:34 PM "The Administration has said that education is the President's highest priority. The budget states that the President grants the education department "the largest percentage spending increase of any Department (11.5 percent increase in 2002)."(1) A closer look shows that the more accurate figure for the Education Department is a 5.9 percent increase, while the figure for all federal education funding is 5.3 percent. 16230. jexster - 4/19/2001 12:25:56 PM Bush's low-spin style is refreshing, but also problematic. He generally doesn't get out the spin until his opponents spin first. 16231. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:26:44 PM See Michael Kelly's most recent column, contrasting Bush's decision not to hog the spotlight at Widbley Island with Clinton's "feeling the pain" of every sparrow that fell from the sky. 16232. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:29:05 PM 16233. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:30:56 PM 16234. jexster - 4/19/2001 12:31:07 PM Bush Songs 16235. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:34:17 PM Re: Message # 16232, AceofSpades. 16236. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:36:36 PM 16237. Indiana Jones - 4/19/2001 12:36:55 PM Ace: Actually it was Michael Kelly's column that inspired my question. That and reading so many complaints on Free Republic about how similar Bush was to Clinton. TTers think it's blasphemy to compare the two, Freepers think they're too alike. 16238. Indiana Jones - 4/19/2001 12:39:29 PM In a more positive vein, I'm also hopeful that Bush does have a moderate position re the environment and hasn't switched gears out of purely political reasons. 16239. Francis Urquhart - 4/19/2001 12:41:22 PM To the extent hilarity ensues, it is for an audience predisposed to find him funny. Generally, that audience is the same audience who thought he lost all three debates with Gore; who thought that the ballots should still be in the process of tabulation in Fllorida; and who think The West Wing, with its President-as-Jesus from whom all things flow format, is the proper facsimile for politics that occurs without aid of Aaron Sorkin's glib vision. 16240. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:41:48 PM Re: Message # 16236, AceofSpades. 16241. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:44:38 PM 16242. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:45:12 PM Fran: 16243. Francis Urquhart - 4/19/2001 12:46:23 PM The complaint emanates from a generation of sycophants who literally sold there own reputations, souls and consciences to work with the gifted-yet-flawed Clinton. As such, what he did, the must value. So, they see shameless mugging as a necessary component to effectiveness, simply because they buy into the concept that a President in some sort of motion is a good thing. It somehow shows resolve. 16244. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:46:30 PM "If he fears impromptu speaking, he can simply not take questions. 16245. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:47:05 PM Is it because he's worried he's not handsome? 16246. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:48:50 PM "i'm sure it's because he didn't wanna 'hog the spotlight' 16247. Francis Urquhart - 4/19/2001 12:49:03 PM He is mundane and workmanlike when the glitterati have determined that quirky, psychologically iffy, and "committed" are all the rage. 16248. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:50:14 PM Ace: 16249. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:50:59 PM "strucken" = be stricken 16250. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:51:09 PM 'glitterati' 16251. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:52:45 PM And if he could have avoided such questions if he chose to (which he could, as Clinton did for over a YEAR), why did he avoid the homecoming rally? 16252. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:54:00 PM 16253. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:55:36 PM um, ok, Ace 16254. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 12:57:11 PM "i don't remember this" 16255. CalGal - 4/19/2001 12:57:13 PM To the extent hilarity ensues, it is for an audience predisposed to find him funny. 16256. rubberducky - 4/19/2001 12:59:39 PM one quick, and final, answer for today Ace: 16257. Francis Urquhart - 4/19/2001 1:01:02 PM Not really. He's comfortable. So am I. The hysterics are not. And they tend to be Clinton victims. 16258. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:01:18 PM 16259. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:03:04 PM 16260. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:06:19 PM 16261. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:09:20 PM 16262. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:13:24 PM 16263. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2001 1:14:47 PM It's so funny to see the verbally gifted and those who are able to shoot from the lip defend someone so ill at ease with public speaking. 16264. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:16:18 PM 16265. CalGal - 4/19/2001 1:18:22 PM Cal forever defines herself as a middle-of-the-road moderate so, by definition, all of her views are shared by 75% of the country. 16266. AceofSpades - 4/19/2001 1:18:38 PM 16267. CalGal - 4/19/2001 1:21:08 PM If you think the rest of the country finds him funny, that's cool. 16268. Jenerator - 4/19/2001 1:24:07 PM Ace, 16269. Ronski - 4/19/2001 1:33:14 PM Media Bias: More Pro-Government Than Liberal 16270. Indiana Jones - 4/19/2001 1:36:18 PM Bush also ordered all reporters out when he was meeting with the men at some sort of drug rehab during the campaign. 16271. concerned - 4/19/2001 1:37:19 PM Re. 16248 - 16272. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2001 1:50:02 PM Given that, why the bitching about Bush? 16273. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 2:00:53 PM Cellar - I anxiously await more detailed information about your victim status. 16274. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 2:03:38 PM Ducks - most gays i know could drink [Ace] under the table. 16275. Dusty - 4/19/2001 2:12:15 PM Francis Urquhart 16276. thoughtful - 4/19/2001 2:17:43 PM There have been 4 major stamps of W. himself on the administration so far: 1. dress formally; 2. be on time; 3. no beepers in the press room; 4. play t-ball on the white house lawn. The rest is questionable. (Sounds a lot to me like how they run country clubs, no?)(Of course, I'm only guessing as, like groucho, would never join one that would have me as a member.) 16277. jexster - 4/19/2001 2:20:10 PM Lieberman Blasts Bush on CA Energy Crisis 16278. jexster - 4/19/2001 2:40:03 PM Media Conspiracy Plots First Year of the National Joke-in-Chief 16279. jexster - 4/19/2001 2:42:22 PM Speakin of Spin... 16280. jexster - 4/19/2001 2:49:09 PM I Told You So! 16281. Ronski - 4/19/2001 3:06:09 PM While I'm largely happy with the way Bush (or whomever) has been running his administration so far, I do think he underestimated the reluctance with which members of Congress part with the means to dispense pork. 16282. Ronski - 4/19/2001 4:00:23 PM 16283. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 4:15:02 PM J.J. is such a tease. First he flashes the Race card, then puts it right back into the pack and pretends that he has no idea of how to play Poker. 16284. Wombat - 4/19/2001 4:20:39 PM Ronski: 16285. Ronski - 4/19/2001 4:36:22 PM New York and the New England states did themselves have small secession movements over slavery, I understand. 16286. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 4:43:25 PM Cellar - J.J. is such a tease. First he flashes the Race card, then puts it right back into the pack and pretends that he has no idea of how to play Poker. 16287. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 5:02:12 PM I was changing the subject, J.J. 16288. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 5:25:00 PM Cellar - I was changing the subject, J.J. 16289. jexster - 4/19/2001 5:27:16 PM United States negotiators concluded two days of talks with the Chinese government about the American spy plane. No agreement was reported 16290. jexster - 4/19/2001 5:29:49 PM Hey Moron - WE WANT OUR PLANE!!! 16291. jexster - 4/19/2001 5:37:57 PM From FreeRepublic.com! 16292. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 5:46:30 PM "Can't say that I do. I don't keep up on gay fads and stereotypes." 16293. jexster - 4/19/2001 5:50:07 PM Stu Rothenberg reports that Demo prospects "bright" to take governorships in Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania. 16294. jexster - 4/19/2001 5:54:39 PM David Moats, editorial page editor for Vermont's Rutland Herald newspaper, has seen a sharp contrast in the tone of the mail he has received this week compared with what he was getting this time last year. 16295. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 5:57:42 PM Moats proves good journalism isn't dead. 16296. jexster - 4/19/2001 5:59:46 PM On the other hand Jeb's about proving that the Bushes are full o fecal matter... 16297. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 6:12:05 PM Cellar - It's from "Suddenly Last Summer" by Tennessee Williams. 16298. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 6:13:44 PM our Brave Plane sits on an Hainan Island run way 16299. Cellar Door - 4/19/2001 6:16:19 PM Well you're missing some victim card testimony by a black gop who got bashed by other cops. 16300. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 8:29:13 PM Cellar - All blacks arecriminlas and all black cops do is attack other black people. White cops NEVER attack blacks without cause (being black is cause enough, of course) do they J.J.? 16301. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:05:41 PM The Weekly Standard, which labeled the president's accommodation to China "a national humiliation." In an editorial, William Kristol and Robert Kagan identified a reason for what they saw as a capitulation to a totalitarian regime: "the American business community has a hammerlock on American policy toward China." 16302. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:09:10 PM First we needed a tax cut..well I can't quite remember why there have been SO many Bush Bloviations on that subject...but I do recall recent pronouncements from the Blowhard-in-Chief that the economy was headed into the tank. 16303. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:15:30 PM The Hudson Institute's Marshall Wittman, for one, says the silence of his fellow conservatives derives partly from the fact that the movement is "awash in corporate money and hostage to K Street 16304. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:16:53 PM JJB-Our plane has more balls than our Imebecile in Chief! 16305. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:18:00 PM The right's reflexive support for Bush's China policy revealed a movement that has surrendered its capacity to think critically and has become captive to the very forces against which postwar conservatism once defined itself--the GOP functionaries, finely tailored businessmen, and Henry Kissingers whose ideological preferences consist of cash and power. 16306. JJBiener - 4/19/2001 10:19:38 PM Jex - Ball bearings, certainly. Otherwise, you are just being ridiculous. 16307. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:20:45 PM Why Bush Crawls on His Belly Like A Reptile 16308. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:29:07 PM Its time to stand tall for America! 16309. jexster - 4/19/2001 10:34:02 PM And its time for this Moron to repeat 3rd grade... 16310. jexster - 4/19/2001 11:04:33 PM 16311. lemwalker - 4/20/2001 1:51:11 AM The fact is we can't kick China's ass. Nuke 300 million of them and there are more than 700mm left. China nukes LA and we whine that our tv's don't work. We are past tense!! We don't make anything, we export knowledge. The sun sets. 16312. Toenails - 4/20/2001 7:12:41 AM What national humiliation? China got all petulant, we (as usual) got concerned that maybe as many as ONE American military person might get a hangnail, and it was all worked out. 16313. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 10:56:13 AM Toe - Good points. 16314. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:19:59 AM A few weeks back RD inquired about my somewhat cryptic references to the agnst of Poor Ole Jeb over his Moronic Brother's so-called energy policy.... 16315. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:23:18 AM Looks like the split between the GOP corporatists and the wignut true believers might ultimately decide this one as it will China, as it will arms sales to Taiwan, as it did in the partial lifting of the Cuban embargo within a day after Reno freed Elian... 16316. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:26:42 AM Yet another example... 16317. rubberducky - 4/20/2001 11:26:57 AM Jex: 16318. janjon - 4/20/2001 11:32:56 AM Apropros Florida, here is a little article that appears in today's Los Angeles Times. I Would Want Odds Before I Would Bet on W's Finally Winning Florida in 2004 16319. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:36:12 AM One touching sight on The Today Show...hundreds of kids part of the Defend The Environment Campaign gathered with Al Roker to protest Bush's plans to poison our air and water. 16320. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:38:31 AM Campaign to Defend America's Environment 16321. jexster - 4/20/2001 11:40:09 AM Of course, that PR coup comes in the middle of the Moron's well publicized spin push to convince us that he is "The Environmentalist with Results" 16322. Ronski - 4/20/2001 12:11:44 PM 16323. jexster - 4/20/2001 12:24:42 PM I dunno Duck what the fallout for Jeb will be...or for Georgie for that matter..does seem to indicate that the Bush asshole doesn't know what the Bush brain is doing... 16324. jexster - 4/20/2001 12:27:36 PM BTW the dorms at the AF Academy remind you of the Starship Enterprise 16325. AceofSpades - 4/20/2001 12:28:12 PM 16326. AceofSpades - 4/20/2001 12:29:53 PM
The answer is NOTHING directly at least. The destroyers would NOT add measurably to the electronic intel already available via the US and as far as improving command and control of Taiwanese defenses does anyone really think the Nationalist regime would be able to sucessfully resist a determined Red invasion?
Of course not. What AEGIS destoyers MIGHT add is trip wire deterence but because it would be deterence of an highly unstable and uncertain kind, it would be dangerous deterence.
Better to station 50,000 US troops if we want to defend Taiwan.
I am OUTRAGED!
Shame and disgrace!
Meanwhile, the Bush administration is receiving kudos from both sides for its masterful handling of the situation.
Who is Jex trying to convince?
Himself, mostly.
Why should we apologize for anything?
You'd better be right, or hope that the political and economic "contradictions" in China topple the current system. Of course, a recourse to nationalism is always a good safety valve...
DO NOT APOLOGIZE the last words from these brave Americans
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
(I especially like the line about "stemming the tide of homosexual activism." Not just stemming gay rights per se, but the political activity. Yup, they're gonna stem that free expression, political organizing, seeking the redress of grievances, and all those other bad things. Stuff 'em back into the closet and slam the door. Perfectly in tune with the times and the Senate's vote to stem the tide of free speech in the last few weeks of the campaign cycle.)
Bill Kristol and his VRWC buddies, led by Ruppert Murdoch, are hell-bent on pulling American foreign policy, especially wrt the Chinese, to the extreme right. They want to fight the cold war all over again - hell, they will not be satisfied until we start WORLD WAR III!!!
THE LOONY LEFT, TODAY:
Even the highly-regarded Republican Bill Kristol is outraged that the Bush Admin. would sink so low as to apologize for having to land a plane crippled in a scrap with their jets in Chinese territory.
We'll see, of course. I don't think the Chinese have the stomach for an invasion, unless the Taiwanese declare an independent state, which they are unlikely to do.
the dhame..oh the shame...our "Presidunce" crawling on his belly ...a yeller bellied sap sucker to the Chicoms
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble....
I explained that: to show how truly sorry we really are.
Were you there when Bush laid USA in the tomb?
Oh!
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when Bush laid US in the tomb?
This would be great new if true, but I suspect it isn't.
China’s Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan said the crew was being released on “humanitarian grounds” and expressed hope that the dispute would not damage relations between the two governments.
Slight change from a few days ago - eh jex? - when the Chinese were insisting we "apologize for crashing our plane into theirs...violating their airspace during the surveillance mission (NOT merely by landing our crippled plane in their teritory)...and saying that Bush's failure to apologize for same could only result in straining relations between the two countries.
Now, who blinked?
-Both sides agree with a joint-commission investigation of the incident. The
party (parties) at fault WILL APOLOGIZE based on the investigation results
and conclusion.
-Release the E-3 crew IMMEDIATELY . Crew member(s) will be made
available and be cooperative with the joint-commission investigation,if
needed.
-Put E-3 plane in an "escort account" in Hainan during the investigation and
ONLY the joint-commission appointed staff can have access to the plane.
The plane will be returned to the U.S. as soon as the joint-commission's
investigation NEEDS are satisfied.
-Without admitting any guilt nor taking any responsibility for the
accident/incident,the U.S. government agrees to "donate" $1 million dollars
to the Chinese pilot family for the child's education fund purely on the
humanitarian basis.
-the U.S. government can tell the American people that we get our 24 crew
members and the plane back home WITHOUT formally apologizing to the
Chinese.
-the Chinese governemt can tell PLA and the Chinese people that the $1
million "payment" is a form of apology and the resolution pays respect to the
Chinese dignity.
A win-win situation.
Losers: Jesse Jackson,Wang Wei(maybe)
We kicked their little yellow asses.
The whole point of them holding our men and women hostage was to get concessions -"To apologize, and then accept the consequences."
Specifically, we were to apologize for directly causing the death of their pilot.
No such apology came. No consequences are forthcoming. They only hope that the dispute would not damage relations between the two overnments.
George W. Bush had Peking Duck for breakfast, lunch and dinner today.
This administration kicks ASS!
Eh... nobody won. We issued an "aplogy" which could be contrued as a blanket apology and acceptance of liability. We did this deliberately.
On the other hand, we didn't actually apologize for the incident.
This is pretty much what was to be expected. No one actually goes to the mattresses over stuff like this; diplomacy is the careful fudging such differences.
Anyone who is "surprised" or "shaken" by this perfectly predictable resolution is both a moron and a blindly-partisan hack.
toward the United States and could lead to a new set of rules governing ties
between the two countries, analysts said"
The speed of resolution is a pleasant small surprise,IMO.
Will our E-3 pilot have LONGER and HARDER debriefing sessions in Hawaii than
in Hainan?
Fortunately,the moderates in China prevailed.
It depends how long he has been under water. He may be fish food by now.
Will our E-3 pilot have LONGER and HARDER debriefing sessions in Hawaii than in Hainan?
No, thankfully for the women Clinton isn't President anymore. 
Duh-bya Receiving Payment for Betraying US Honor - Giotto (1304-06)
Truly there is no honor among theives!
And what about our brave plane?
The bastards made chop suey of that!
George W. Bush breathed!
No Democrat so-called "President" could possibly breathe like that. It was a heoric breath. A breath filled with confidence and pride in America. It was a breath guarateed to show those lily-livered Europeans that America STANDS TALL IN THE SADDLE.
It was a breath that Ronald Reagan -- SAINT RONALD REAGAN HIMSELF -- would have been proud of!
MY GOD, BUT THIS COUNTRY DOESN'T DESERVE A BREATH LIKE THAT.
How wonderful of George W. Bush to forgive us all after our long eight-year Clintonian nightmare and actually breather in out presence. We can scarcely hope to ask for more.
Pretty much whatever George W. stood for, the Legislature is now undoing as fast as it can, and whatever he was against is now getting done.
Texas's gain...our loss!
Taiwan has some rumors about it circulating for several days.
He brought the solution to an end all right!
Fed Judge Orders Enron To Comply With Contracts to CA Universities
too excruciating and debasing and soul-debilitating to be reminded of on a daily basis, the latest laundry list of Bush-enacted sociocultural bitch-slaps and impending humanitarian insults goes something like this:
Bush Thinks UR an Imbecile TOO!
Bush Backer Bilks Billions
The call was made in a report co-authored by economist Peter Navarro of the University of California-Irvine and Michael Shames of the San Diego-based consumer group The Utility Consumers' Action Network (UCAN).
Fight Against Bush and His Bandits!
Eh... nobody won. We issued an "aplogy" which could be contrued as a blanket apology and acceptance of liability.
Wrong.
We let the Chinese do the spinning, dude. But we know better, they know better, and it looks like their people know better, despite the spin.
From concerned's link:
Closer inspection revealed that the story was a re-hashing of a statement three days ago, with key phrases translated more positively. It seemed that China was trying to manufacture something resembling an apology to prepare the public for an imminent deal...
Gen Powell's original comments were made on Sunday, when he said he was sorry that the pilot of the F-8 fighter had died in a mid-air collision with the spy plane over the South China Sea. China's strictly controlled media had already reported the comments, but initially translated them using the term yihan, which can sound dismissive.
But yesterday's Hainan Daily, Beijing Morning Post and Beijing Youth Daily newspapers reported that Gen Powell had "said sorry" for the loss of the pilot and for the plane's intrusion. Propaganda chiefs chose a new translation - bao qian.
In Mandarin bao qian means sorry, but does not necessarily admit fault. China had originally demanded that America must agree to the stronger term dao qian, which admits guilt. When the American letter was published last night, diplomats had chosen a third way, rendering "very sorry" as shen biao qian yi, a strong apology but not necessarily an admission of fault.
As I said, we kicked ass.
we had used "very sorry" phrase twice in two occations. One for the loss of life of Wang Wei. The other one for the landing inside China without verbal clearance. The Chinese translated the first one as "regret" while translated the second one as "apology" .
I dunno...the WP certainly seems to want us to believe that this is but a tiny victory. I think Bush will get much more mileage out of this than they seem to think - and do it without 1,000 photo ops and sound bytes, as his predecessor would have.
Now Bill Krystol can have a WWF match with the Chinese hardliner military generals.
What do you guess....Continental let them have an extra packet of peanuts?
Peanuts are no longer served so as not to impact the allergic.
i coulda known that about the peanuts a week and a half ago if Bush only woulda done right!
Sorry means never having to apologize
Leaders of the right attacked Evertz, 38, a fundraising executive with a religiously oriented senior citizens' program in Milwaukee and formerly a development official for an AIDS ministry. They contend that he opposes the Boy Scouts' refusal to allow gays to be scoutmasters and that he wants black ministers to stop describing homosexuality as a sin.
"We are very concerned about the fact that he is an activist, that he opposes the Boy Scouts, supports homosexual marriage -- all the homosexual agenda," said the Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition.
"Evertz's whole approach is homosexuality is a viable life alternative . . . that it's part of God's design in humanity. Bible-believing Christians don't believe that for one second."
No question. A colossal failure. Imagine. Having our personnel unavailable to us for so long. And de plane. De plane!!!!!!!!
I would have much prefeered the launch of cruise missiles into a Chinese aspirin factory.
This is another case of Republicans trying to ingratiate themselves with natural opponents, and a thumb in the eye of supporters," said Richard Lessner, executive director of American Renewal, an arm of the Family Research Council. "President Bush may think the Log Cabin Republicans [a gay group] delivered him the election. If that is the case, he is sorely deluded.
Bush will stick with Evertz with significantly greater resolve than, oh, let's see . . .
Clinton with Guinier.
"Bush has humiliated America"
more ON POINT..if you remember what that means Francine
i personaly blame Bush for my not knowing that until today when i could easily have known a week ago.
Poor you. Gore relegated to Middle Tennessee State. Without some force around which you can orbit, your tongue is unfocused, lapping at any ass, be it that of Mr. Kristol or Mr. Bauer, so long as it is critical of this Administration. What hatred must lurk within to reduce you to such a pathetic heap? What love you must have had for the Lothario from Tennessee?
It's all really, terribly awful.
I don't blame you. As I said, the release of the personnel, the lessening of the tensions, it all pales in comparison to the fact that you and I were so egregiously inconvenienced.
Villaraigosa Finishes First, Confounding Pre-election Polls
LOS ANGELES, April 11 — For years political experts have talked about the day when this city's surging Latino population would shape the outcome of local elections. In Los Angeles this morning, there was an unavoidable feeling that that moment had arrived.
More
LAT
If you're still shaking, perhaps it's homonal.
Better get that checked.
What Ken Lay Wants, His Chimp Provides!
Cellar,
I lost the link to your web site. New computer and all...Please, give it to me. I want to order some of your books through Amazone. Thank you.
They have gleaned not just secrets from the downed spy plane but something far more coveted: attention from the new Bush administration plus a bit of respect
Yea I'll say....
Our brave plane sits on a Chinese runway while our craven Bastard Imbecile munches his favorite PB&J's....
KowTow
As for my book. . .
In your Bastiat link, can I assume the sentence:
Only last year, for example, the website of the World Sociologists complained that...
contains a typo?
There are some people on the right, like Goldberg, like Buchanan, like Helms, who cannot get it through their thick skulls that Americans come in all colors and ethnic derivations and always have. (Remember Helms' tirade against reparations for the Americans of Japanese descent who had their property seized by the Government and who were interned during WW2? Helms said we should not give them back any money since they started the war.)
See Sullivan's link in the B-Bar for more.
The realistic way to reduce the amount of money in politics is to reduce the amount of politics in money - the importance of government in allocating wealth and opportunity. Does the Post advocate less government as a path to less political money? No.
Not necessarily.
All smart people agree with you. Wills may not always demonstrate smarts, but does in this case.
Does this link load correctly for everyone? It only half-loads for me...I've tried it 3 times.
It only half-loads for me...
I suspect there is a joke in there.
Ronski Message # 15403
Now that's funny.
I figured any way I phrased it would result in a joke so...
By William Saletan
Every time the United States negotiates with China, a war of words breaks out. On one side are Americans who demand a "principled" hard line against China's aggression. On the other side are Americans who advocate "constructive engagement" to coax China toward economic and political freedom. In the spy plane standoff that ended this morning, the hawks and engagers were at each other's throats again. But their enmity was, as always, dishonest. They need each other. Without the hawks, the engagers would have no sticks to wave at China. And without the engagers, the hawks would have no carrots to withdraw.
The latest charade began Friday, when the Weekly Standard editorial, co-authored by editor Bill Kristol, denounced "the profound national humiliation that President Bush has brought upon the United States" by expressing his regret at the death of a Chinese pilot in the spy plane incident. Calling advocates of engagement "appeasers," the editorial assailed Bush's "weakness," "fear," and "capitulation." On the weekend talk shows, the engagers fired back. Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell excoriated the Standard editorial. Cheney called it "one of the more disreputable commentaries I've seen in a long time" and warned that such rhetoric might "inflame" the U.S.-China standoff."
Someone on this thread blasted a few of us who doubted Bush was in charge by claiming we were stupid to expect him to be...he did what Presidents do, he delegated the job to those who knew China policiy, yada yada yada....well, looks like we were all wrong.
According to Cheney, that is.
- 4/12/2001 11:03:14 PM
-- Andrew Sullivan, who may be a homo but who understands the difference between "bauquien" and "daoquien"
bao, I meant
"The Americans said baoqian' (sorry), but to Chinese people, that's not the same as daoqian,' a sincere apology," said Guo.
"Baoqian is used when you regret getting into an accident with another driver and it's not clear whose fault it is. Daoqian is when you know you're wrong and you apologise and pay compensation."
--AFP
If so, this is going to cause problems for the CHinese, and therefore for US-China relations.
I can't wait for the lefties like Jexster to begin crying that Bush was "TOO tough" after whining for a week that he wasn't tough enough.
See my Message # 15361, and concerned's Message # 15358 for the link to the article I posted from.
We kicked ass.
I'm not comfortable with the "we kicked ass" wording.
It just strikes me as so... partisan. Sort of the mirror-image of Jexster's "shaking."
Even if it is closer to the truth.
You kick ass in war. You do not "kick ass" in diplomacy.
At best, you stay strong.
I think the whole thing was absurd, but we most assuredly did not kick ass. Kicking ass would be "Listen you fucking chink bastards, CNN will be showing live coverage of a plane taking off for Hawaii or we'll bomb Beijing."
++++++++++++++
Guo was not quite correct.
"yi han" =regret
"baoqian"
and "daoqian" are both "apology" in nature. "daoqian" maybe a little bit more "expressive" than "baoquian". After all, the key word is in "qian" which has "I owe you something" in half of the character.
Now you are totally confused.
HaHaHa!
Now Bill Krystol can do a WWF match with the Chinese military generals.
But to announce that this uncomfortable extrication (which would have befallen any administration of any political bent with any of the usual suspects at the helm of foreign policy), is ludicrous.
It seems to me, though, that Bush won on points.
OTOH, you can find American commentators (like Kristol) and nitwits (like Jexster) who scream that we've been "humiliated," so perhaps it isn't dispositive that you can find Chinese saying the same thing about China.
Then again, they don't shoot you for criticizing the Bush administration in America.
Alas.
It is ludicrous to announce?
"But to announce that this uncomfortable extrication ...is ludicrous"
Something's missing here.
"But to announce that this uncomfortable extrication was an ass-kicking is ludicrous"
Yes, Judith. You're very lucky. Republicans want to turn the country into a fascist police state.
That's why the country becomes a fascist police state for 4 or 8 years every time a Republican is elected President.
Gee, I'll never forget the terrible repression under Reagan and Bush I. It was just horrible when they seized the newspapers and tv stations.
"He got all carried away by the parenthesis. "
Yes, that and the was/is thing at the end.
"WAS an ass-kicking IS lyudicrous..."
Eh. You might be right. From what I could tell most of Congress was behind him, but the split in the Republican party over this seemed substantial.
But in the end, did we act like the world's biggest superpower or like a peer? I say the latter.
Maybe that's all that is left us anymore. Maybe we never get to kick ass.
ABSOLUTELY no "kowtow".
Actually,China "blinked" and bowed out of the accident/incident for this round .
We get to kick ass, if that is what is desired.
It is toddler ass.
We do not get to kick superpower ass.
I mean.
Really.
"Kicking ass" involves going to war, folks.
Do all the tough-talkers here really want to go to war to "kick ass"? I don't think so.
Somewhat amateurishly and in a protective, bomb-dropping manner.
But his ass was kicked.
This was a diplomatic imbroglio, and, as diplomatic solutions go, we kicked ass.
Listen - the whole point of the apology the Chinese wanted - entirely regardless of who was at fault - was as follows:
We apologize, and in that apology we accept responsibility for the incident, and in doing so, admit we were wrong. Being wrong, we agree to correct our mistake, and repent of our wrong-doing, by ceasing to fly surveillance missions so close to the mainland.
Even then, they left themselves open as to demands for further repentance on our part.
"Listen you fucking chink bastards, CNN will be showing live coverage of a plane taking off for Hawaii or we'll bomb Beijing...", is the diplomatic style of North Korea. That is one reason they kick no one's ass, and have to feed their people with meat rejected by the EU.
The pilot is a hero, at least as we've defined the term down in the later 20th Century.
It was extremely tricky flying to get the badly damaged plane to the ground safely. The plane dropped 8,000 feet in just a minute after the collision.
Everyone on board is likewise a "hero" in the sense that anyone who suffers Is a "hero." Which is what "hero" means now.
But we aren't even kicking toddler ass. We're not even kicking I'm your big brother ass.
We're playing nice in school and saying "please".
I tend with Ace. Kicking an ass suggests explosions and severed limbs and whatnot.
If you want to say that we were diplomatically successful, I can buy that, mainly because I agree with Cheney and Powell that the Weekly Standard editorial was the most imbecilic thing I've read in some time.
Heck, Americans eat beef rejected by the EU...
Yes, we are capable of kicking the ass of a struggling European country distracted by civil war and no army or airforce to speak of.
That's about the size of it these days.
Faced with a big Communist country we hold our cap in our hand and say "So solly, but could you let our people go?"
I cannot fully gauge your desire to kick ass, but it seems great. Since I do not know to which ass you refer, and the manner in which you would kick that ass, I cannot evaluate your lamentation that we just don't get to kick ass like a superpower should kick ass.
Hitler kicked Chamberlin's ass (Wilt, not Neville).
The Cong kicked our ass over that damn circular/square table.
Stalin kicked Churchill's ass when he wrote those little tic marks on Churchill's sheet of paper.
Any treating involving an American Indian tribe and a white guy generallly represents an ass-kicking.
The Louisiana Purchase was a much more thorough ass-kicking in terms of territory acquired than just about any war you can name.
Yes. He did his job well, which is all it seems to take these days.
Cal's like a tick. She can burrow in but she can't burrow back out.
She has burrowed herself into a silly, indefensible position and only knows how to keep burrowing deeper.
Plus, she's using the "wisdom" she gleaned from The Left Wing.
We kicked diplomatic ass, okay?
That's all you get from me.
(You pussy)
I fear you're are blasting "I'm Proud to be an American" as you type.
Or was it Paula Jones?
Maybe we should "kick some Russian ass" while we're at it. They spied; they ejected our spies, I mean diplomats.
We've got to "kick ass" rather than "take it up the ass" by accepting this.
I have said nothing of desire to kick ass. I think the whole affair was idiotic, and while I suppose it wasn't in the cards for Bush to say, "Eh. Take 'em. Who gives a shit? I have other things to do.", that would have been a suitably dismissive response and put China properly in their place--and reinforced the notion that we really spend too much time wailing about our armed forces for what is really rather trivial inconvenience.
My point is, rather, that there is no advantage to being a superpower. We only feel comfortable taking on the most trivial of countries, and scuttle and squeak when meeting up with anyone close to our size.
It has much to do with the fact that we don't want to risk our baby boys in war anymore, but nonetheless I find it rather ludicrous. If we are indeed peers with everyone else, then let them foot an equal portion of the bill.
BTW Cal, the silly Left Wing "wit" you're using -- "What's the point of being a Superpower anymore?" -- isn't even applicable here.
Being a superpower has NEVER meant kicking Russia's or China's ass. Look it up in the history books -- we haven't gone to war with either, and every time a situation grew tense, both sides backed down.
What a voice!
"My point is, rather, that there is no advantage to being a superpower. We only feel comfortable taking on the most trivial of countries, and scuttle and squeak when meeting up with anyone close to our size. "
Duh.
Cal has discovered that nations, as a rule, are more willing to enter wars they can win cheaply and quickly than wars they can only win at great expense and after a long struggle, if at all.
Call Kissinger.
Or rather: The Left Wing has discovered this subtle point of realpolitik statecraft.
Jiang :"I'm sorry that you are sorry."
Bush : "I'm VERY sorry."
Jiang : " I'm more sorry than you can imagine."
-Over the Chinese food served to our EP-3E crew by skipping the Peking duck desert.
I'm still pissed we didn't kick Russia's ass over the Korean airliner.
Or when they invaded Afghanistan.
Or when they cheated at the Munich Olympics.
We will see if Taiwan gets the Aegis.
What's the point of being a superpower anymore, Indy?
I mean, if we're not going to start a thermonuclear war with Russia and/or China every time we have a "situation," what the hell are we paying our military for?
20 posts? 10? 5?
As for your post, Ace, I was not demanding that we "kick ass". I was mocking Joe's notion that we did (even diplomatically) and then pointing out what kicking ass would be.
That said, I do not think China has reached anything approaching superpower status, and while I certainly think they should be given more respect than, say, Albania, I do think we behaved very much like a peer, rather than a more powerful country saying, "Look. I'm gonna be polite here, but let's wrap this shit up soon."
I am not saying that we should have done that, either. I am instead giving examples to explain why I don't think we have much in the way of power at all, regardless of who we are dealing with.
The art of war is to win by preventing the use of power in the first place.
-Sun Tzu
Ah, the "good old days" of being a superpower, back when it mattered. The days when we had a full conventional and limited nuclear war with China and Russia every time an aging tyrant banged his shoe on a table.
Memories, misty water-colored memories. Of the way. We were.
They only make cool shows like The West Wing about superpowers.
It wouldn't carry the same cachet if it was President-for-Life Klik-klik's Outhouse Hut Annex.
Cal,
You claim "there's no point in being a superpower anymore."
Please explain when, in the past, when there presumably WAS a point to being a superpower, we went to war with Russia and/or China over a tense incident.
The clock is running.
Well, to bomb the shit out of useless little European countries and give dickless wonders like you something to feel manly about. I thought that was a given.
If you are suggesting that the course of action you would have suggested is "Eh. Take 'em. Who gives a shit? I have other things to do", so be it. But your views and my views are so divergent that further discussion of the proper conduct of foreign policy in this area is pointless. You may as well have suggested that we send them a big fish in a kimono.
Is this a new menu at KFC?
Please explain where I have said that I thought we should go to war over this incident or any other.
The clock is running.
I seem to remember Truman firing MacArthur for daring to suggest we cross the Yellow River... even after Chinese soldiers attacked us in mass.
Now, we were a superpower THEN. And China wasn't even close (no bomb).
So, back in the good old days of "being a superpower," we backed down after actually being attacked by the Chinese.
Please explain, Cal.
Yuck!
I would have found it more amusing, and generally that is my primary interest in politics. And for that matter, I thought the fact that he refused to give up his schedule was a decent step in that direction and as much as I would realistically expect.
But it wasn't so much that I think he ought to have done that, but what it means that he didn't, but instead pretty much gave into the Chinese demands (if in a face-saving fashion).
This isn't a slam against Bush at all. I think it's more a statement about the country.
Yup! Albright is NO Powell.
If the goal is to determine what you would have found "more amusing," then I have been off the rails. I've clearly misread the parameters of the discussion.
As I recall, the country was pretty disgusted at him for doing so.
"I would have found it more amusing, and generally that is my primary interest in politics."
Ah. We have a real deep-thinker here, boys. Nuclear war as fun-and-games televised entertainment.
"This isn't a slam against Bush at all. I think it's more a statement about the country"
For the tenth time, please explain when in the past it has been different.
Your statement about "no point in being a superpower ANYMORE" presupposes that there was a point in the past when we happy to go to war with China or Russia, or to tell them to "Fuck off" and to precipitate a crisis which would lead to a war.
Thus, you will have to provide examples of when this has actually happened in the PAST.
if it has not happened before in the past, then there is just as much a "point" to being a superpower as there ever was.
Did I stir up some crap, or what?
Listen, folks - the "kicking ass" stuff was entirely for fun and, as someone mentioned earlier, a tonic to the fumings of jex and Jade.
However, there are many benefits to the outcome of this diplomatic near-impasse (and it could very well have turned extremely ugly) which have been mostly ignored here.
For one, it establishes this administration as one that is cohesive, smart, and which keeps it's cards close.
Quite a change, no?
HONOLULU (AP) -- Twenty-four crew members from a U.S. spy plane landed in Hawaii today to cheers and to face two long days of debriefing before weekend reunions with their families. ''We're definitely glad to be back,'' said Lt. Shane Osborn, spy mission commander, in a short statement to officials and military families. He said all crew members were healthy and eager to get on with the last stage in their mission: 26 hours of debriefings. They will return to their home base and a welcoming celebration planned for Saturday at Whidbey Island, Wash., their home base.
Eh. Let's drop it.
CalGal-the-Tick-who-can't-burrow-out never quite says "I'm wrong," but she does typically use the words "Oh, this is just about my amusement factor" to indicate she doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about.
Francis,
Oh yes, you are continually missing my point. I think it is because you are confusing an observation with a recommendation. I am always surprised at the quotes you pull out to respond to.
A
no question
"Oh yes, you are continually missing my point."
Or, rather, miscontruing your posts as containing a "point" at all.
"I think it is because you are confusing an observation with a recommendation."
Right. When you suggested we go to war with China you weren't REALLY suggesting it; you were just indicating that it would "amuse" you and provide you with some fun television.
"I am always surprised at the quotes you pull out to respond to."
I, too, am occasionally surprised anyone responds to your quotes at all.
Is that his title?
Shane Osborn, Spy Mission Commander 1st Class. Serial #00677-R32. That's all yer gettin' from me, you stinkin' commie bastards!
No. It doesn't. It is these sort of leaps you make that really astonish me. There is no basis for that sort of conclusion.
Would you have a) more amused b)less amused or c) amused about the same if Bush had sent them a fish in a kimono?
No, no. Too blatant.
excerpt:
A slave's memoirs assert that Randolph Jefferson often spent time playing the fiddle and dancing with the slaves when he visited Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's home.
And we all know what dancing can lead to....
I diplomatically apologize for missing your points.
Hey, he's getting closer to renunciation. Or has the therapy helped? Resist, Ace.
Notice there was no reporter on board the Continental Airline?
No apology required. Not even a velly solly.
It just seemed to me that if you missed my point, you would later on restate it at some future point inaccurately, and I dislike it when that happens.
"No. It doesn't. It is these sort of leaps you make that really astonish me. There is no basis for that sort of conclusion. "
Yes, it does, Cal. Words have meanings.
You claim that our "capitulation" to China shows that there's "no point in being a superpower anymore." Thus, there must have been a point in the past in which we would not have backed down, when there WAS a point to being a superpower.
Words have meanings. The fact that you say idiotic things all the time, and then seek to redefine words and undo the rules of logic to back away from your idiocies doesn't change that fact that words have meanings.
And backpedalling away from an idiotic statement with the "CalGal Special" ("Oh, I'm just speaking as to what would amuse me, not as to what would actually be rational or prudent") doesn't change that fact either.
You can rest assured I won't refer to your point in the future. The benefit of not being to understand something is the fact that it won't stick in my mind.
Adios.
Wrong.
Saying "Wrong" isn't really a winning argument, Cal.
If there is any other way to read your idiotic posts, please clue us all in.
I'm sure you're desperately trying to invent one as you stall for time with "Wrong."
Is that "baoquien" or "daoquien" ?
-how soon?
-with or withot escort(s)?
-how close to the China coastline?
-what if our pilots see the alleged missing Wang Wei comes back in the sky "hotdogging" again?
LOL!
CINCINNATI (AP) -- As riots over the police shooting of an unarmed black man stretched into a fourth day, the mayor today declared a state of emergency and announced a citywide curfew. Only people going to and from work will be allowed on the streets between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m. Mayor Charles Luken, a Democrat, acknowledged a ''real problem with race relations'' but said he had to separate that from the need to quell violence. Since 1995, 15 black men died at the hands of police, including four since November. Tensions exploded after Saturday's fatal shooting of Timothy Thomas, 19, by a white officer.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Bush administration, letting the rules crafted by the Clinton administration to take effect, said today that it would immediately implement sweeping rules giving patients their first federal right to guard health records. ''I believe that we must protect both vital health care services and the right of every American to have confidence that his or her personal medical records will remain private,'' Bush said in a statement. Bush said he decided to back the rules although he directed a change giving parents the right to see their children's records.
++++++++++++++++
50 ppb arsenic to 10 ppb arsenic in drinking water was a different matter.
Good call!
But for starters, I have never said we "capitulated" to China, I have expressed no criticism of Bush, nor have I said that we would have gone to war over something like this in the past.
There's more, but it gets kind of boring and these conversations never go anywhere.
then what did you mean?
You keep telling me what you did NOT mean.
But what DID you mean?
by JOHN HEILPRIN
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Bush administration on Thursday approved efficiency standards requiring new washing machines and water heaters to use less energy.
The standards, proposed in the waning days of the Clinton presidency, will require new washing machines to use 35 percent less energy starting with the 2007 model year and water heaters to use 5 percent to 9 percent less energy beginning in 2006.
The Energy Department estimates the cost of the improvements will add an average $240 to the price of a new washing machine.
Manufacturers said the standards would make the low-end models that most consumers buy too expensive even though lower energy bills over time would more than offset the higher prices.
''We reviewed the regulations as directed by the White House and we found that the benefits to consumers, to the environment and to energy efficiency are pretty clear-cut,'' said Energy Department spokesman Joe Davis. ''Therefore, we're going to move forward as written.''
++++++++++++++++++
Another good call by Bush!
What is amusing, regarding the whole "what's the use of being a superpower" deal, is that once the USSR imploded many of the more hawkish tended to prefix statements about the US diplomatic/military positions in the world with, "As the world only remaining superpower..." But, as Ace et al have pointed out, there really isn't all that much difference between the options available to the worlds only superpower and the previous situation as one of the worlds two superpowers.
Yes, I have said what I meant. Given your rather egregious translations, I am uninterested in explaining it again for you. It takes forever to get you straightened out and then there's all the "I'm never talking to you again" horseshit and I'm just not up for it.
"Ace,
Yes, I have said what I meant. "
You haven't said anything except "wrong" and "I didn't mean THAT."
You can't say what you "meant" because what you meant is exactly as I "translated."
Moron.
Actually, there are a whole host of options short of war, and it is the variety of options--as well as the actions taken by others in the first place--where the change has taken place.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush welcomed home the crew of an American surveillance plane today and insisted that the United States did ''nothing to cause the accident'' that led to the 11-day standoff with China. With the crew safely back on American soil, Bush said, ''China's decision to prevent the return of our crew for 11 days is inconsistent with the kind of relations we have both said we want to have.'' Standing in the Rose Garden at the White House, Bush saluted the 24 service men and women, who had landed earlier in Hawaii.
Or Sudan.
Or Afghanistan.
Or Iraq.
For that matter, ask the Chinese. Not too many non-superpowers get to bomb the crap out of the Chinese embassy, say oops, and go on about their merry way. 
Now I see why our apology has the Chinese all upset.
On CCTV,Jiang and Chu said, " We released American crew based on the humanitarian basis. It's NOT the end of this affair. The U.S. should take the full responsibility......"
Hmmmmm.....................
Now that's ASS-KICKIN' diplomacy!
''From all the evidence we have seen, the United States aircraft was operating in international airspace, in full accordance with all laws, procedures and regulations and did nothing to cause the accident,'' Bush said.
Bush, who spoke with the crew members just before making his statement, said they ''did their duty with honor and great professionalism.''
In New York, by contrast, China's deputy ambassador to the United Nations took a tough line.
He said investigations of U.S. flights ''will take some time,'' and he described the April 18 meeting as one of experts, thereby suggesting it would not be conclusive.
''We have to convince the Americans that if they have further activities like this along our coastal areas, it is not in the interests of both countries and it is very dangerous for them, because maybe in the future, I'm not sure whether this kind of collision will happen again if they still will carry out spy activities like this,'' Shen said.
The Chinese diplomat stopped short of saying a suspension of U.S. flights was a condition for return of the Navy plane.
Oh the SHAME..the SHAME OF OUR PLANE!!!
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - China will use the damaged Navy surveillance plane on Hainan Island as its next bargaining chip to extract concessions from the United States, but eventually will return it, U.S. analysts said on Thursday.
Cincy Riots
Ain't Racial Profiling grand, folks?
...no worse...they forced them to keep living there.
Aides: Bush Engaged, 'Curious' in Spy Plane Drama
Yo Jade this one's for you!
"Curious George"
what a disgrace
No Justice No Peace
and justice died in Florida
Yup. Measured by the CBO baseline, its a reduction. More fuzzy math from a fuzzy brain.
Bush says it's 4% overall. The Washington Post says it's 4% for domestic programs. In fact, however, it isn't 4% for domestic programs -- merely overall.
Jex's conclusion: Bush can't do math.
1. I didn't think we owed the Chinese an apology, and I'm glad that the President's letter made clear that our concern was limited to the loss of a life and inability to follow international diplomatic procedures (possibly through no fault of our own);
2. I hope we don't end up apologizing just to get that airplane back because I doubt it's worth it, given the time they've already had to get whatever information they can from it;
3. I'm pleasantly surprised at Bush's handling of the incident.
Anyone know what, in particular, it is that we wouldn't want them to get a hold of?
The back issues of Penthouse in the plane's rear lavatory.
You're probably right. Who knows what effect the sight of nekkid American women might have on the heathens?
I know this is probably not a good scenario, but what would be the chances of us just sending another plane in to bomb our downed plane?
Can we send a smart bomb in to blow it up from international space?
Or would this be diplomatic suicide?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is from the racist AP:
"Since 1995, 15 black men have died at the hands of Cincinnati police, four of them since November. However, in most of those incidents, the men first shot at or threatened police officers."
MsIt
It would be diplomatic suicide with no real gain.
Bush abandons diplomatic tone
WASHINGTON, April 12 — With the crew of a U.S. spy plane safely home, President Bush dropped all diplomatic talk Thursday and bluntly rejected China's claim that the U.S. plane was responsible for a midair collision that strained U.S. relations with Beijing. Meanwhile, NBC News has learned that the United States plans to resume surveillance flights near China's coast, this time using much more advanced U-2 spy planes that fly too high for any Chinese plane to reach.
I would be an act of war against a country that we have extensive and normal--if somewhat tense-- relations with. Diplomatic suicide would be an understatement.
test
Ya, that's what I thought. It was one of those wild "wish we could just go in and..." ideas.
However, isn't the plane technically still ours? What's the international law position on the status of the plane? Is it our soverign space? Is it an invasion of our property for them to keep it?
If it is our property, and it is considered soverign, what would be the act of invasion for us to simply destroy it if we don't fly in their airspace to do it?
I suppose the missle we targeted at it would be the act of invasion?
Reallly? How could they fire when they were unarmed? All 15 were unarmed, you know.
I agree. Let them have the plane. It's not worth any consessions.
However, this is a lesson that we ought to install some destruct device on our sensitive military sea and air craft that can be triggered from international space or waters.
As I think about it, not negotiating for the return of the plane at this point will eventually make the Chinese look worse than us. I mean, technically, they are the ones who are forcing consessions and not acting in good faith.
"All 15 were unarmed, you know."
Since you reject A.P as a source refuting this claim, please set forth a source you will accept, and I will provide you with the mundane, as opposed to the rantings of bottle-throwers in the street.
And if you cannot provide a source that you deem trustworthy, we will have established, if we have not established already, that reason on this point cannot be conveyed.
We ran into this problem in Yugoslavia where we lost an aircraft. The self-destruct mechanism is nifty, but even were it technologically feasible, we probably would not have the stomach to explode the plane without knowledge as to those surrounding the plane at that moment.
Yugoslavia? I doubt we were as concerned about reverse engineering with the Yugo's as we are with the Chinese.....
A self-destruct device! That's the ticket.
However, whether we'd have the stomach to use it is a serious problem. Someone said somewhere here (maybe international) that we've come to the point where we're not willing to lose any American lives for the sake of national security.
I think this has become a tactical advantage for our opponents that they are well aware of. We need to seriously rethink our mania about zero tolerance of loss of life, given we have an all volunteer army now.
Now don't get all snippy. Every news report I've heard over the last 24 hours has said the 15 were unarmed. Do you have a more accurate acounting? Will we ever get one? And what ws meant by a "threatening gesture"? As one who has been attacked by the LAPD without provocation you can surely understand my skepticism. 15 dead black men and no dead whites is a bit odd, don't you think? Are we to infer that no white person in Cincinnati is capable of an act of violence?
In this case,we have to demand the return of the plane. As a principle. And there IS consequnce for not demanding it.
Are you the same one who claimed that "apology costs nothing"?
I don't think we'll get it without consessions and further apologies, which I don't think we should do, however.
"Now don't get all snippy. Every news report I've heard over the last 24 hours has said the 15 were unarmed. Do you have a more accurate acounting? Will we ever get one? And what ws meant by a "threatening gesture"? As one who has been attacked by the LAPD without provocation you can surely understand my skepticism. 15 dead black men and no dead whites is a bit odd, don't you think? Are we to infer that no white person in Cincinnati is capable of an act of violence?"
Inference is not my bag. Fifteen black men have been shot dead by the police since 1995.
Taken alone, by inference alone, one could get so frothed up as to throw bottles, loot and otherwise act like a jackass.
But behind the numbers lies a story from which different inferences derive.
For example, in December 1997, two Cincinnati officers - one black, one white - were shot to death by a black man when they went to his apartment to arrest him on a domestic violence charge. The shooter shot himself to death shortly
afterward. So, it is clear that he was one of the 15 who was armed. But, since he he killed both a white and black cop, at least we wasn't profiling. And in an homage, one of the protestors shot a police officer, who was saved by a bullet-proof vest.
Here is your list
1. Harvey Price, 34, was shot Feb. 1, 1995, while lunging at officers with a knife after killing his girlfriend's 15-year-old daughter.
2. Darryl Price, 42, died April 4, 1996, after striking his head while resisting arrest.
3. Lorenzo Collins, 25, shot Feb. 23, 1997, after threatening police officers with a brick.
4. Daniel Williams, 41, wounded a police officer, then was fatally shot Feb. 2, 1998
5. Jermaine Lowe, 21, shot at police officers who returned fire, killing him June 3, 1998
7. Michael Carpenter, 30, shot March 19, 1999, following a traffic stop. After several investigations, Justice Department decides not to file federal charges.
8. James King, 44, shot Aug. 20, 1999, after robbing a bank and pointing a gun at officers.
9. Carey Tompkins, 28, shot Oct. 16, 1999, when an officer saw him pull a gun.
10. Alfred Pope, 23, shot March 14, 2000, after allegedly robbing and shooting at a group of men.
11. Courtney Mathis, 12, shot Sept. 1, 2000, while illegally driving a relative's car. The officer who tried to stop Mathis was dragged 800 feet and died.
12. Roger Owensby Jr., 29, died of asphyxiation while resisting arrest Nov. 7, 2000.
13. Jeffrey Irons, 30, shot Nov. 8, 2000, after robbing a grocery store and grabbing an officer's gun.
14. Adam Wheeler, 21, killed Jan. 31, 2001, in a shootout during a drug investigation. Investigations pending.
15. Timothy Thomas, 19, shot April 7, 2001, after fleeing officers who were trying to arrest him on 14 outstanding traffic warrants.
Just a thought that occurred to me in an early morning fog.
Don't have any facts to back it...just interesting that all this happened so.....cleanly....too cleanly it would seem.
Maybe that radio show I listened to back in '97 caused some residual brain malfunction too.
Just a thought that occurred to me in an early morning fog.
Don't have any facts to back it...just interesting that all this happened so.....cleanly....too cleanly it would seem.
Maybe that radio show I listened to back in '97 caused some residual brain malfunction too.
Why have there been 15 shootings of Blacks by Cincinatti police officers, and none of Whites?
The next question that needs to be asked is, How many Whites/Blacks have taken shots at the police, or were wanted felons running from justice?
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
God, aren't white people saintly?
Numbers 2,3,7,9,and 10 are -- to put it very mildly --questionable.
Especially 7.
I'm used to reading these reports all the time F.
I defer to your ability to divine the "questionable" from the "solid" based upon a one sentence description. But even playing by your hunches, we have moved from 15 "unarmed" deaths, to 5 "questionable" deaths.
That 9 and 10 are "questionable" (in both instances, Messrs. Tompkins and Pope were armed) strains credulity. Tompkins was shot in the West End by Officer Craig Ball after Ball had struggled over a 9 mm Ruger in Tompkins' waistband. Ball was exonerated by an internal police investigation and one by Hamilton County
Prosecutor Mike Allen.
Pope was shot after he pointed a gun at officers Daniel Carder, Kenneth Grubbs and Jason Lamb, who were responding to a call about somebody pistol-whipping people in an apartment building hallway. Pope was hit by at least 10 bullets of 26 fired. The three officers were cleared of wrongdoing.
78 percent of those arrested for violent crimes were black. Of the officers who shot, 75 percent were white -which mirrors the racial makeup of the
1,000-member division."
(...but shhhhhh - wouldn't want the Scaife press to get hold of that and make some kind of big deal out of it. After all, they were just following orders).
Love's Old Sweet Song.
I'm just uncomfortable ignoring the facts, lighting the torches, making the same generalizations about cops that I decry when they are made against other groups, and screaming "Kill the monster! Kill the monster!"
"However, in most of those incidents, the men first shot at or threatened police officers."
Reallly? How could they fire when they were unarmed? All 15 were unarmed, you know.
...............................................
Typical.
This is the kind of ignorance of which riots are born.
Love's Old Sweet Song.
Funny that you chose to leave out the rest of the sentence which says:
and one by Hamilton County Prosecutor Mike Allen.
Should we infer from your post that blacks don't favor honesty in cases like this?
As for lighting torches and screaming "Kill the Monster!" my cinematic tastes are well known.
This would imply that Cellar doesn't know the truth when he obviously does. He chooses to lie about the situation instead.
You know Cellar...I, by nature and consciously as well, am not a prejudiced person. I have many close, long-time friends who are anything but white and not once has the issue of race came up even in heated debate. Over the years it was considered an expected natural progression that this type of prejudice would die in its own puke eventually. Individually, most people I believe try to do the right thing, for the right reasons..I really believe that. However, in self-defined representations as groups, that breaks down into something else. [We black, we suffer, we deprived, we victims]...and the whole thing gets fucked up in the resulting definition. Do you follow me here?
It appears the resulting attitude about one's identity gets skewed, and that statement of your's is a very good example.
You have the bag to cry about bias and prejudice yet by your very actions and attitude in gravitating toward that "grouping-identity" you buy-into it's perpetuation. The victimization ploy may be justified in many instances in this country, or anywhere, but it does not justify your perceptions of reverse bias and prejudice. It is wrong in EVERY case. As an idividual, you perhaps exude the nobility of an intelligent person...your group identity sucks however. Let me put it this way. If as an idividual you confronted me with that type of generic labeling for which as an individual I may not associate, I would wipe a large area of real-estate with your ass whether you are black, white, yellow, red...or green.
People with your group-identity attitude are one of the main reasons this disease goes on and doesn't die as it should have years and years ago.
There are people who care. I believe, they are a majority. It is a weak mind and will that allows the remaining assholes to become an excuse for doing what is wrong on any level.
Cellar posted that before FU disabused him of his delusions - the same delusions which are driving the idiot mobs in Cincy.
But, no worries.
Kweisi Mfume has everything under control. He has subdued the mob with a gentle warning that they need to "go home so that they can protect their children" from the police.
you've been wrongly attacked by a police officer (or officers) in the past.... in an entirely different city... and maybe they were racist jerks...
but aren't you in effect 'profiling' police officers by criticizing them based merely on a statistical breakdown of the shootings?
It seems to me the key figures in Urquhart's stats are
75% of the officers who shot were white (which matches the racial makeup of the whole force).
78% of the people who were shot at were black (which matches the racial makeup of violent offenders in Cincinnati.
Let's protest some real displays of racism
The Spark
The Protest
Tell the cops to start treating me like I belong to a group why don't you!!!!!
YOU ASSHOLES KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS !!!
NOTHING!!!!
Oh look there goes that uppity nigger agin playing the race card. Yeah -- Canasta!
I have heard news reports on this from CNN, Fox, CBS, and NBC. I didn't hear any of them say that the 15 men were unarmed. You either added that detail consciously or unconsciously. I believe you did it consciously to bolster your claims of racism.
What's your problem?
That you are willing to lie and distort the truth in order to promote your point of view.
...now how in the hell did it become a race issue?
"He was too much of a gentleman and a scholar. Must have been one of those randy no account borhters of his or something."
I thought they tagged another whitey, a Jefferson relative.
As for the "official" version, I am dismayed that you request verification, and when it is not to your liking, you dismiss it as suspect, be it from A.P., the Enquirer, the police or the prosecutor.
But you and I are fully aware as to what this is really about. My photo has not yet been placed on a proper page in Ehrensteinland (I want a gallery chock full of stars), and your denial of this honor wounds (unless the photo is a really bad one, whereupon I respect your judgment and request a second session next time I am in L.A.).
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. My comment regarding a destruct device would be if the crew had to abandon the plane or ship, and the craft wasn't returned by another government. A self-destruct button that would go off with the crew seems a bit at the edge for me.
I don't think my comments in any way suggested that our servicemen should kill themselves rather than let one of our planes (or ships) fall into hostile hands. I doubt that would be acceptable in any official US military plan of action.
The last part of your comment makes no sense to me.
Meanwhile speaking of lies, here's an interesting tidbit from our old alma mater.
Can I get approval or can I trust you that I look fabulous?
I would think that a more enlightened approach would be for Native Americans to seek to bring their culture too the school, rather than alienate it. It's a perfect opportunity for them to educate others about their culture.
Instead, they want to remove it from peoples consciousness. In my opinion, a real missed opportunity.
You are very naive.
Now here's a poser. A school in my neighborhood is named after Herbert Hoover. What would call its sports teams? The Crash? The Depressions? The 'villes? Another school in the area is named after Winston Churchill. Its teams are the Bulldogs.
Isn't tha supposively what he liked to do?
The Mote
President Herbert Hoover...not J. Edgar.
All the Jeffersons are the same...aren't they?
....advertising
Trust me,you do. There are no non-beauties in "Ehrensteinland."
Except for Pat Kingsley.
All we have seen are the crowds of Henry Kissenger,Bill Kristol,James Liiie,Winston Lord,and other Democrats.
It just shows how LITTLE respect we all have on the collective wisdom of Clinton/Gore/Albright on the China issue.
TOKYO (AP) -- Japan's economic woes sent the number of bankruptcies up 12 percent over the last fiscal year, leaving the most unrepaid debt for any year since the end of World War II, a private research group said today. For the fiscal year ended March 31, the number of bankruptcies rose to 18,926 while bankruptcy debt soared 130 percent to 25.9 trillion yen ($209 billion), Tokyo-based Teikoku Databank said. That outstripped the previous high of 15.2 trillion yen ($123 billion) for the fiscal year ending March 1999. The massive debts underline the nation's deepening economic problems.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Comments: Watch out for the spill-over to the American and world economy!
And proof positive that there is hope for all violent perpetrators, no matter their race, also from the Enquirer article: "A deranged woman with a 14-inch butcher knife stepped closer and closer to Cincinnati Police Officer Dawn keating. When she was less than ten feet away, Officer Keating shot four times. Four times she missed. The woman crawled under a bed before giving up. An internal police review exonerated the officer, but sent her to target practice."
From 1994 to 1999, Cincinnati police officers shot half as many people as did the police in Columbus, Cleveland, and Indianapolis. Since 1994, Cincinnati police have shot at 32 people, killing 8, wounding 13, and missing 11. They have also shot 38 times at animals, 3 times accidentally with injuries, 15 times accidentally with no injuries, and 4 times as a warning.
Of the 32 cases of shooting at people, 15 of the suspects had guns, five had knives, one had a brick, one a rock and one a nail board. A car was considered the deadly weapon in 8 cases. One suspect was unarmed.
Officers in six of the 32 cases received discipline or retraining.
In 1997, officers Ron Jeter and Dan Pope were shot to death while serving a warrant. In early 1998, Officer Kathleen Conway was seriously wounded when a man forced his way into her police cruiser and shot her three times.
78 percent of the people police shot at were black (78 percent of those arrested for violent crimes in Cincinnati are black). 75 percent of the officers who fired shots at people were white (75% of the Cincinnati police department is white).
CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) - In a made-for-TV demonstration, three Greenpeace activists scaled a water tower near President Bush's ranch Friday to protest his environmental policies. All were arrested.
The two women and one man hung a 30-foot-tall yellow banner off the water tower. It read, ``Bush the Toxic Texan - Don't Mess with Earth.''
The tower is in Crawford, a few miles from Bush's ranch. The tower is also across the street from a school where the news media covering Bush work when the president travels to his ranch.
I would think that the important thing about Cincy is the extreme level of alienation that the black community feels. Whether or not the correlation of fact presented by Francine that 78% of violent offenders are black and 78% of those shot by police are black means that the police are color blind OR that they are profiling is less interesting to me than the intense lack of legitimacy given to the city power structure by the city's black community. Even if the Cincy police are resolutely color blind in their application of the law, the obvious fact that the black community feels so alienated and threatned by the power structure needs to be addressed.
But of course, all it really needs is for the blacks to wake up to the reality that they are better off than they would be if they were still in Benin.
I've got to run, but your post is straight out A Confederacy of Dunces. What matters is not the facts, but the feelings of a group of people based on their misinterpretation or blind ignorance of those facts.
As long as you can corral enough strident posers, hysterical barricade-manners, and/or just dumb cattle, and collectively, that group "feels . . . alienated and threatened by the power structure", well, then, by all means, it needs to be addressed.
Though, to address it with facts is out of the question, because the facts do not lessen the "feeling" of alienation and threat.
Condescending, Patronizing Dumbing-Down 101. This semester's professor -Von Kreedon.
On another note --
Happy Easter all! Adios.
Professor Von Kreedon will be teaching "Catering to the Mob" 102 as well.
and F-8 as the "Crouching Tiger".
crew members. And the flight attendents asked for $5 for the earphones.
-Jay Leno
It is mand in TAIWAN!
It's made in TAIWAN.
(MIT)
"PARDON me,Mr. Jiang."
The protesters, members of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, wore black uniforms and chanted ''Black power'' and ''Long live black Harlem.''
The group, which calls for socialism and nationalism among blacks, handed out flyers to passersby on 125th Street, Harlem's main thoroughfare, but many residents would not take the pamphlets and no one stopped to join the small rally.
''These people still think we're living in the 60s,'' muttered Melton Brian, a longtime Harlem resident, as he passed by the two rows of protesters.
Speaking to reporters, group spokesman Malik Zulu Shabazz said the protest was the beginning of a ''political war'' against Clinton's decision to move his office to Harlem, and against the gentrification of Harlem which is driving up rents and forcing some longtime residents to move.
''We will not allow some cracker like Bill Clinton to set the stage to drive black people out of Harlem,'' he said.
Clinton has not yet moved into the 14th-floor office space in the newly renovated building. He had been expected to sign the lease by the end of this week; his spokeswoman, Julia Payne, declined to comment Friday.
But I thought Clowntoon was supposed to be our first black president!
I agree with Francis, but I would add something more: your logic works just as well for dealing with the wacko militia groups. After all, they feel alienated. They feel as if things in the country are going downhill. So we should hold their hands and say, "there, there" because reality means far less than the intense lack of legitimacy given the federal power structure by the militia groups.
Fabulous name for a stripper.
cellar:
What is it with Blacks and the Shabazz name.
...sounds like some low-rent super hero.
'shabazz' name and Malcolm X. related somehow?
...probably great uncle to Jesse Jackson's newest "family" addition?
On that grim note, I wish you all a Happy Easter or whatever you may be observing.
But the politics of denial are something both parties share in great measure. Franc et al would like to keep the uncomfortable issue of ongoing and perhaps worsening black disaffection with our current social arrangements out of view by showing us that the law enforcement metrics really show that there is no problem! The facts on the ground would seem to say otherwise. 
Warning: May Be Too Intense For Some Motees (though Iknow you'll enjoy it, Wiz.)
Who said anything about denial? The point is that just because someone feels something to be true doesn't mean it is true. If all you need in order to be taken seriously is to state that you feel something most dreadfully dreadfully truly, then what makes the black community different from the white militia community?
If black people are angry about something that is not, in fact, true, why should that be given any credence at all? What makes them different, in that case, from a white militia group who is convinced that black helicopters are coming any day now?
Please understand that I'm using your logic, not making a statement about my beliefs. I think your statement was absurd, for the reasons given.
No surprise.
But what happens to white men who draw guns on the cops? Does the fact that there are no white men mean that they have never drawn a gun? Or that white criminals kill cops when they draw guns? Are there black people who draw guns that survive?
If 25 white men drew guns on the cops and survived and 10 black men drew guns and didn't, then I'd say that's more than coincidence. It suggests either they are more trigger ready with blacks or less willing to shoot to kill with white men.
If no white men have ever drawn on a cop, then I'd say some re-education of the black male community is in order. Don't draw on cops, guys.
Save for white collar criminals who go country club "prisons" or get pardons. Or become "humanitarians" like Miliken
No we've got the press for that.
Fine bunch of "Liberals" they are!
BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! BOUGHT AND PAID FOR!!!
I watch the news fairly regularly, and the first I heard that any of the Cincy 15 martyrs was armed, was last night, on O'Reilly.
...from a liberal Cincy newspaper reporter, whom O'Reilly had to squeeze - hard - to admit that such was, in fact, the case.
Why do you think this is - because the cops don't like them?
No - because in a city where, for instance, 78% of the violent crime is committed by Blacks, that is where 78% of the violent criminals live - that is where the police must be in order to do their job.
Every day, for most of our lives, we have heard from the residents of these communities how dangerous it is to live there. We shake our heads and cluck our tongues when we hear about bullets crashing through windows into babies' cradles because someone was stupid enough to wear a blue shirt, or because a drug deal went bad - or just fucking because...
You try having to patrol such a waste land. In fact - just drive your compassionate White self into the heart of your nearest, gang/drug-infested "inner-city", park your car - in broad daylight if you wish - and walk around for a little while.
See if the hairs on the back of your neck aren't standing up the whole time. Note how long it takes before someone - or many someones - start following you.
Then, try it wearing a cop uniform.
In every way, it is like guerilla warfare. And you'd be a fool not to approach it as such.
I'm rather stunned. Cal reveals herself to be a determinist; ultimate truth can be determined for the black community in Franc's metrics on police activity, and since the black communities perceptions are so wrong they can be ignored! Rather than society having to deal with the cause of the black communities perception of being targetted by the police, we only need to concentrate on communicating the correct metrics to reveal that they actually have no problem! We should not be discussing how to relieve the feeling of alienation that the black community perceives, no, we should be discussing the best ad campaign strategy to best inculcate a true perception into the black communities consciousness.
Again I state that the real issue is not whether or not metrics can be found to support the police as color blind enforcers of the law, but rather the issue is how has the black community become so alienated that even if you found such metrics they would not believe you.
Cal did not imply that there is no problem.
And whether you believe these problems to be caused by "society", or by the people themselves - or somewhere in between - the fact is that the police are not the problem.
If they were not there, doing their jobs and occasionally screwing up, the number of murders in these areas would most certainly be much greater.
If they were there in numbers more reflective of the racial make-up of the neighborhoods they patrol, the number of people killed by them -mistakenly or justifiably, would not be any lower.
That this would make people feel better about it - or pretend that they would - I'll never understand.
And, really, when you come right down to it - when you consider the dangers of working in such areas...the percentage of residents who are sociopathic reprobates, repeat violent offenders, and who just plain don't give a fig for the lives and property of their neighbors...when you consider the number of violent contacts the police make in these neighborhoods on a daily basis...15 is quite a low number. You don't, unfortunately, hear about the situations where a gun was drawn, or an officer attacked, and the situation was concluded without loss of life or great injury. Officres who work these areas lose count of all the times this happens to them.
They only have to go in and clean up the consequences of this "alienation".
"but rather the issue is how has the black community become so alienated that even if you found such metrics they would not believe you."
I think the black community has done it do themselves in some ways. They get worked up into a froth over problems that aren't problems... then things are done to solve these problems that weren't problems... and then nothing in particular changes about the problems that weren't problems.
If the Cinnci police department isn't racially biassed, and you impose race sensitivity classes or some other remedy to their "problems"... and then the metrics don't change... what have you accomplished except making the black community feel that society doesn't really care?
I used to work at a government facility and we had a few fairly neurotic people who were constantly complaining about all this tension (non-racial) in the office... so we took sensitivity training... and all these preceived problems (which weren't) would come to the surface...
For instance, one that constantly came up was "communication". Boy that sounds good, but they never got more specific than that. What about communication... well no one would ever say. In my opinion these 'group' problems were actually problems between two people in the group, but we would impose some action that affected everyone (thus lowering overall morale) all because some neurotic doesn't get allong with some other neurotic.
We would repeat this cycle over and over, because to be honest... those neurotics were never going to be happy because they were unwilling to recognize their part in the mess to begin with.
From FreeRepublic.com
A Chinese aircraft company announced plans to manufacture a knock-off version of the U.S. EP-3 Aries II at a fraction of the price. The highly sophisticated aircraft from Lockheed Martin currently costs $36 million. A spokesman from the Chinese company indicated that their version will sell for approximately $275. He attributed the extremely low cost to prison labor. Chinese government officials have asked the United States to apologize for selling the plane at such a high cost.
"Children attending the annual White House Easter Egg Roll -- a custom that dates from the 1870s -- will be frisked for stun guns by the Secret Service...But on the back [of the admission ticket] children are warned not to bring, among other things: 'guns, ammunition, knives with blades over 3in, mace or electric stun guns.' Even balloons are banned, presumably because a balloon popping could be mistaken for gunfire."
The Times of London
Or all the support behind OJ Simpson... very questionable character, yet they completely backed him, damn the consequences.
I work with minorities. I've lived in mixed neighborhoods... I've even shared appartments with minorities. They are on a whole very decent people.
If the school shootings aren't really a problem, and you impose sensitivity classes or some other remedy to deal with it... and then the metrics don't change... what have you accomplished except making the white community feel that society regards it as pathological?
...but we go after guns, while we're in denial about the effect violence on tv, movies... the lack of parental involvement.
... yet people get into a froth about the NRA wanting to enforce laws that are alreay in the books.
It's just frustrating that in a day where things that aren't racism (those news stories I gave before about the two professors arguing over a room) are given the same credence as acts that really are.
Certainly part of this is that the news really doesn't report anything positive very often... we spend too much time bringing ourselves down. All that negativity must have an effect.
Actually, they're not. The media attention creates the perception that they are. School shootings are still extremely rare, but like mall shootings or factory shootings or any other shootings where there are numerous sitting ducks, it reminds us how vulnerable we are in a society that has such a proliferation of weapons designed to kill and wound lots of people fairly quickly.
Minority loudmouths are just like other loudmouths. They get all the attention, but it doesn't mean they express the views of the majority of that particular group, yet it seems to be the automatic assumption when people make generalizations.`
And racism does, of course, still exist, in some places it is a serious problem, and if enough people are complaining, loudmouths or not, they deserve an investigation into the situaiton at the very least.
Anytime something bad like that happens it is problematic. Whether it's a problem with society, or a problem with the individual... that seems to be the distinction that is never made.
The majority of people own weapons because they like to hunt, or like to target shoot. Some have them because they want to protect themselves.
The majority of weapons in this country are never used to kill and maim people... or even a person.
Cars have been proven to be far more capable of mahem in this country.
As one might expect come the 1980's she recanted.
Sometimes I think she got it right the first time.
But of course I can't possibly say that, because that would be racism.And as we all know whenever a black person raises an objection to anything a white person does, then he's a racist.
Whites, of course, aren't racist at all.
They're merely expressing their free speech rights under the First Ammendmentto the Constitution.
But we mince words....
When the impostor morons at 1600 PA Ave start frisking kiddies for weapons at the Easter Egg Roll
Mister Gore, out of my cold dead hands...
That's one HELLUVA problem
What on earth are you talking about?
A COMPLETE AND UTTER LIE!!!!
I live in Los Angeles and opinion on O.J. Simpson in black community was as far-ranging as it was in the white community.
As Chris Rock recently put it "If OJ didn't kill her then she ain't dead!"
Of course no one EVER talks about OJ's white supporters, do they?
I'm beginning to somewhat agree with this. White people often make generalizations and call them objective observations (always from the outside looking in, of course), yet are very defensive when black people do the same thing.
It's all about PR really (the subject of my next book.) Jesse Jackson is a second-rate spokesmodel elevated to the level of a "leader" by a media thatlongs for one. To his "left" you'llfind Al Sharpton.
It's a kind of parody of the 60's when you had Martin Luther King -- a first-rate intelligence and a genuine leader -- and to his left, Malcolm X, whose intelligence was likewise first-rate but whose leadership skills didn't really merge until after his death.
Thanks — that was an interesting image to analyze, Cellar.
The image is funny to those who wouldn’t be shocked by it, but to those who would, I think it would only anger and elicit a resolve to fight from a position of fear.
I would have embellished McCain’s tattoos, and prettified Bush . . . and maybe cropped the lower portion a bit.
That kind of image is therapeutically cathartic, I suppose, but ultimately supplies ammunition to the opposition.
[I’m thinking of Mapplethorp providing Jesse Helms with the sword to gut the NEA.]
What on earth are you talking about?
A COMPLETE AND UTTER LIE!!!!
Well since we're going to be validating people's perceptions... rather than fact... why won't you do something to ease my mind?
"I live in Los Angeles and opinion on O.J. Simpson in black community was as far-ranging as it was in the white community."
Then again... again based soley on my perception... why was the press reporting such overwhelming support of his innocence?
Did you read my '71 at all? My school was afraid to let the students watch the verdict of the trial. I knew the kids and knew most of the black students didn't give a rip and a number of them thought he was guilty as sin.
Don't you know? IT'S THE LIBERAL MEDIA!!!!
So much gos on that the "mainstream" press never covers (half out of fear of contradicting their editor's prejudices, the other half out of cluelessness) that I scarcely know where to begin.
Your problem, Maria,is mistaking OJ for a blac person.
When you're a sports star you get to be white.
I think the media in general is too lazy, and too intereted in getting that 'impact' story to concern themselves with a whole story.
We also seem to think of them as athorities on everything, but how can we expect them to really understand half the stuff they report on. Any time I read a story that talks about something I actually know a lot about, it's always wrought with errors. Sorta makes you wonder how they're doing on the rest of their reporting, and yet these are the stories that shape public opinion.
I can't remember the last time _any_ police officer escorted me anywhere. Being white (the majority of whites) doesn't mean life is just handed to you... it doesn't ivolve a secret club and a secret handshake...
You're talking about money and fame... not black and white.
Enjoying privilege at the highest level.
Well, you might get to be an honorary white person, Cellar, for a time, but you're never really white.
And that's exactly what happened with OJ. So long as he was a Sports God, and acting out the fantasies of Whites then everything was OK. When he reached for White Prilege -- Big-time lawyers and whole spread -- things changed. Suddenly in court there was constructed this "Black Man" who hadn't been there before. Suddenly this ghetto kid who "won the lottery" and kissed the ghetto goodbye, had to go back to it agin symbolically to become a "victim of racism."
The looks on the face of the police during tis transforming moment (which was well prior to the start of the trial) was amazing.
The sloppiness of the police work came back to bit everybody in the ass.
And leave us not forget it was Mark Fuhrman -- that noted racist -- who let OJ go scott-free years before when he was beating the shit out of Nicole in a "domestic dispute." Why did he let him go? Because he wasn't "some nigger"-- he was OJ.
And the same goes for the murders. Don't think for a moment that Fuhrman was pleased to have found that glove -- once he discovered who it belonged to.
Yet another of the small, individual tragedies of ethnic history.
Celt
(also spelled Kelt, Latin Celta, plural Celtaea) member of an early Indo-European people who from the 2nd millennium BC to the 1st century BC spread over much of Europe. Their tribes and groups eventually ranged from the British Isles and northern Spain to as far east as Transylvania, the Black Sea coasts, and Galatia in Anatolia and were in part absorbed into the Roman Empire as Britons, Gauls, Boii, Galatians, and Celtiberians. Linguistically they survive in the modern Celtic speakers of Ireland, Highland Scotland, the Isle of Man, Wales, and Brittany.
There is much debate as to the appearance of the ancient Celts, but they they were probably a mixed group, which is why I advised you to look to that heritage.
You have continually ignored the analogy I made, for obvious reasons.
If we are to validate feelings whether or not they have any basis in reality, what makes black anger at inaccurate perceptions of government persecution any more valid than white militia's anger at government persecutions?
HILLARY'S HEALTH DISASTER: THE REAL REASON SHE WON'T RUN FOR PRESIDENT
Hillary Clinton has abandoned her dream of becoming the first woman president because she's been hit by a mystery illness, says sources.
The former first lady has an underactive thyroid, according to insiders, and now her pals fear even more serious health problems.
A bombshell report that ex-President Bill Clinton suffers from a disease connected to his womanizing has Hillary's friends deeply concerned that she too might have contracted the illness, and this may the underlying reason for her refusal to run for higher office.
If she has, the complications caused by the two disorders can be disastrous. Dr. Yassar Ousman, a board-certified endocrinologist from Wasinghton, D.C., who is not Hillary's doctor, warns that a patient with untreated hypothyrodism-when the gland is not producing enough vital thyroid hormone-gets an intimate infection, "they can slip into deadly coma."
"It seems that Bill's extra-marital indiscretions have finally come home to roost," says one insider.
"While full details of Hillary's mystery disease are only known to a very small number of Clinton friends, it is believed that her husband's infidelity, is one of the root causes of her current problems. His playing around has affected Hillary's health and she now realizes she cannot withstand the press or the scrutiny of a run for the presidency."
The former first lady's friends thought she would run for the presidency in 2004. When she made it known that would be too early, they believed she intended to make a determined drive in 2008, building on what she hoped would be a successful Senate record.
Now, sources say she has ruled that out, too. On April 5, she said that running for the nation's tob job, "is not something I'm going to be doing."
Hey, I can always hope....
Bush Paying Scant Attention to California
And California is paying NO attention to him!
Pressure Building on Smith to Quit
How surprising is that, considering they voted for Governor Blackout?
What's DELICIOUS about his recent cowardice is the hornet's nest its stirred in the PoopRank to wit the Who Lost China Crowd (Delay, Kristol Helms and my Freeper Buddies) will be howling for various "get tough" policies whilst those who REALLY call the tune, big US corporate money, will have their way!
I read in the Globe last week that Hillary is pregnant with an aliens baby and since the term for one of those is over 2 years, she didn't feel she could devote the spare time to campaigning.
Why he might just have to explain
What Ken Lay wants, Ken Lay gets!
DANFORTH'S FOLLY EXPOSED
Operation Showtime was perhaps one of the best armed "police action" operations in American history. It was also one of the worst bungled actions in American history. And, most probably, it was a totally illegal action from beginning to end. Except, federal agents were the perpetrators, so the justice department and the courts helped cover up the most grievous errors.
Over the years, we have watched, read and written so much about the massacre at Waco the material almost fills a complete file drawer. Issues #63, 151, 152, 185 are typical examples of what has been published on these pages.
It's not over yet, though. Last week, a report on Special Council Danforth's whitewash was released by the Cato Institute.(1) This report is Cato Policy Analysis No. 395: "No Confidence -- An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident," by Timothy Lynch, director of the Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice.(2)
Lynch writes that former Missouri senator John C. Danforth's official report "raises deeply disturbing questions not only about the tactics used at Waco but, more generally, about the mindset often found in America's increasingly militarized law enforcement agencies."
A number of illegal acts were conveniently overlooked by Danforth. Lynch points out a few that would be easy prosecutions, if even an honest prosecutor looked into the fiasco.
Then there's the little matter of gross disregard for human life by both ATF and FBI agents. Indiscriminately shooting into a building occupied by innocent mothers and children is obviously wrong. We know that the FBI killed at least one young child when they used hand-held grenade launchers to fire more than 350 "ferret" rounds into the windows of the residence. The FBI bragged that they fired many in every window and door. Killing children by crushing with an Army tank would also have a few penalties if prosecuted. Murder, these actions are called.
As Lynch appropriately points out: "Does anyone doubt that, if the Davidian adults had been holding children of senators and congressmen hostage within Mt. Carmel buildings, the FBI's tank assault plan would have been rejected out of hand?"
Michael Kahoe, chief of the FBI's Violent Crimes and Major Offenders Section, who Reno identified as one of the supervisors at Waco, got 18 months in prison for destroying evidence and lying to investigators about his role in Ruby Ridge. At sentencing, his lawyer told the judge that Kahoe committed crimes to "protect the institutional best interests of the bureau."
So, as Lynch correctly reports: "With a convicted felon in a supervisory position on the Waco case, obstruction of justice seems not only possible but probable." But Danforth didn't even look twice at these guys.
Lynch writes that the Waco incident, "has become the most controversial law enforcement operation in modern American history. Although the 'official' investigation of the incident now places all of the blame for the carnage on the Branch Davidian leader, David Koresh, numerous crimes by government agents were never seriously investigated or prosecuted. If those crimes go unpunished, the Waco incident will leave an odious precedent -- that federal agents can use the 'color of their office' to commit crimes against citizens."
The new report is 18 pages long and well worth reading. It sheds some new light on just how far the Justice and Treasury Departments are willing to go to cover up for their agents' lawlessness -- even when it includes murder.
But these scenes played out across the country after China detained 24 Navy crew members whose spy plane collided with a Chinese fighter jet. Some observers say the backlash rivals the anti-Asian sentiments of World War II and before.
Freeper Wingnuts Frothing
Moron Rolls Back Energy Efficiency Rules
Why his Texas energy boyz might not make 300% profit off of the KW you save!
Don't worry America, help is on the way!
Cal - Regarding your militia analogy; the militia should be taken seriously, but they are nowhere near as significant as the alienation expressed by the black community. The militia are semi-organized cells of disaffected people, but it is difficult to recognize them as a significant community within our society. The black community IS a significant and identifiable community. In addition, there was no mass spontaneous response by the militia community to Ruby Ridge analogous to the mass spontaneous reponse from the black community to the last incidence of police killing a young black man.
That there is such broad and deep alienation among the black community would seem to me to be the obvious cause for concern, not whether or not one can come up with metrics that can be used to show that there really is no problem between the black community and the police.
The militia are semi-organized cells of disaffected people, but it is difficult to recognize them as a significant community within our society.
Using that standard, who gives a fuck about urban blacks? They all live in the inner cities and have no money--ain't like they're a significant community within our society.
I suspect that the majority of the protests, violence, looting, and the rest is done by black people making less than $20,000/year. Any takers? So why should we care about them, any more than we care about the militia or any other poor population? I don't see us wringing our hands over the poverty and alienation of Vietnamese immigrants.
In addition, there was no mass spontaneous response by the militia community to Ruby Ridge analogous to the mass spontaneous reponse from the black community to the last incidence of police killing a young black man.
That is really rather pathetically specious reasoning. "Make a big fuss and then I'll wring my hands over you."
Riot, baby! Then vK will think there's something to fuss about.
As for a reaction to Ruby Ridge, over 160 people are dead because of a particular response, and most militia groups feel that it was an act of war. But if we'd try to understand their feeeeeeeeeeelings maybe it wouldn't have happened.
not whether or not one can come up with metrics that can be used to show that there really is no problem between the black community and the police.
The metrics can't show that there "really is no problem". They can only show that there is no injustice caused. There clearly is a problem if the perspective of the black community is so warped that they see injustice where none exists (if that is the case).
You remind me of that college bimbo in Terms of Endearment: "There isn't a feeling of yours that I can't......validate."
Having said that, I think that the problems of racial profiling and police shootings are rooted in the ambiguous problems inherent in drug war enforcement. Many of these problems would end if we ended the War on Drugs.
Of course not.
You haven't formed an opinion as yet, no doubt.
Its like saying that problems of racial profiling and police would not occur if we had no laws at all - no on rape, murder, burglary etc., or no police for that matter.
And the civil rights movement of the 1960's is surely dead, been dead for some oh 25 years or more..but the civil rights movement is certainly not dead.
Perhaps cllrdr can explain why blacks, on an individual basis, is almost 50 times more likely to physically assault a white person than the other way around?
Can you imagine anyone else getting away with such hate, violence and pure lack of self-control?
That's part of the reason I like Eminem, Cellar. Like he says about the recent suburban school shootings, "Look where it's at--Middle America. NOW it's a tragedy, NOW it's so sad to see in Upper Class City." If he were black no one would be listening.
And it's not the black community's fault that the white media chooses to make a wacko like Al Sharpton and the idiots who listen to him representatives of black America. If one man can discredit any grievances of 12-15% of the population of this country he's an amazing fella.
Do you make this stuff up yourself or do you get it directly from L. Brent Bozell?
"I should have posted, instead of 'blacks', 'a black person' above."
Actually you should have posted "niggers" and have done with it.
I wonder if she's been lurking...
"THE COLD WITHIN"
Six humans trapped by happenstance
In a dark and bitter cold;
Each one possessed a stick of wood,
Or so the story's told
Their dying fire in need of logs,
The first woman held hers back.
For on the faces around the fire,
She noticed one was black.
The next man looking cross the way
Saw one not of his church,
And couldn't bring himself to give
The fire his stick of birch.
The third one sat in tattered clothes;
He gave his coat a hitch.
Why should his log be put to use
To warm the idle rich.
The rich man just sat back and thought
Of the wealth he had in store,
And how to keep what he had earned
From the lazy, shiftless poor.
The black man's face bespoke revenge
As the fire passed from sight,
For all he saw in his stick of wood
Was a chance to spite the white.
The Last man of this forlorn group
Did naught except for gain,
Giving only to those who gave
Was how he played the game.
The logs held tight in death's still hands
Was proof of human sin.
They didn't die from the cold without,
They died from-----THE COLD WITHIN
Denise Rich gets an immunity deal
NEW YORK, April 14 — Democratic donor Denise Rich has struck an immunity deal with prosecutors investigating Bill Clinton’s pardon of her ex-husband, fugitive financier Marc Rich, NBC News confirmed Saturday.
Hmmmmmmnnn....
I wonder what the distinguished Mr. Em thinks about the energy problem in CA, or the Taiwan problem.
Does he perhaps have a rap which addresses these issues?
The media shines the light on those with the loudest voices. That is why Jackson and Sharpton find themselves in the spotlight. They aren't the chosen leaders of the "black community". They are self-appointed rabble rousers who seek to gain personal power at the expense of others of their race. Like the rioters in Cincy, the only voices they represent are their own. To assume they speak for blacks in general is a grave injustice to the vast majority of blacks who do not share their opinions.
Joe, you missed the points of my post (which included the point JJ made) just becaue I mentioned Eminem. Who cares what he says about any other issues? I'm not going to turn this into a focus on him just because I dared quote his take on the hypocrisy of the attention given suburban school shootings over violence that has plagued inner-city kids for years. I've already said that his views on gays in particular is indefensible. But the man still has some interesting things to say. Sorry that bugs you.
Anyway...
Of course there is a problem when such a large demographic feels alienated. I agree with JJ to some degree, but I have to say that merely not taking part in a riot does not absolve the Black leadership of the sin of failing to lead in a constructive way. And I don't mean just the most recognizable leaders.
When, for instance, a Black man is dragged behind a car, the demands are immediate for condemnation of the act - at every level.
But why is it, when people start burning down their neighborhoods, dragging people out of their cars and beating them because of their race, engaging in mass larceny in broad daylight, etc, etc - because of some stupid, easily confirmed misconception - no one dares come out to demand that these acts be condemned. Rather, even after the facts are in, it is still the "man's" fault.
One Black leader that I know of has appealed for calm in the midst of this nonsense, and his appeal was for the rioters to go home so that they could protect their kids from the police. Real responsible. Sets a great tone for objective, rational examination of the problem of "alienation", doesn't it?
If a White lawmaker were to treat this situation in such a cynical, and, let's face it, inflammatory manner, you know people would be screaming from the rooftops for his resignation - at least.
But Kweisi Mfume not only gets a pass, but recieves credit for "restoring calm".
Yeah...they're real calm.
In the L.A. riots, white rioters were completely ignored.
"One Black leader that I know of has appealed for calm in the midst of this nonsense, and his appeal was for the rioters to go home so that they could protect their kids from the police. Real responsible. Sets a great tone for objective, rational examination of the problem of "alienation", doesn't it?"
real practical,actually. You seem to think that police attacks on the black community are figments of the imagination of "alienated" blacks. Keep stoking tha denial J.J.
Once again you continue to regard black America as pack of animals/children who require leaders to "keep them in their place."
Just the idiots who go around acting like they need to be kept in their place.
And his answer to Marla Liasons question of just who was running the policy coming out of the White House over this incident? "It doesn't matter who was really running it; what matters is what the public perceives and the public preceives it to be the President."
Oh yes, what the public perceives! Unless, of course, the public perceives Clinton as having done a good job or having accomplished something.
One little tidbit they mentioned: One of the main questions GW asked about the crew upon hearing they were being held was "do they have Bibles"....
CHARLIE McCarthyism!
[Happy Holiday!]
I know, Joe, I just don't want the points of my post to get lost in a digression on him.
WRT the rioting and violence, when poor and powerless people get mad enough that's what they do. It's not right and it's indefensible (I hate to use that word twice, but it fits), but how else do they get anyone's attention? How does the message get to the general population?
If you truly care about civil rights and racial equality, then you cannot ignore the fact that the War on Drugs is at the root of much racial strife, these days. When you criminalize consensual transactions, then the police have to use ever more intrusive methods of detecting and interdicting traders. These invasions of the 4th Amendment, as well as criminality that is secondary to drug trafficking - murders, burglaries, robberies, etc. - have fallen hardest on the black community. Worse still, the gangsterism that has afflicted inner city life as a result of black market trafficking has invited a police presence in many cities that has been forced by circumstances to behave like an occupying army. Life in South Central L.A., for example, resembles what I imagine life to be like in the West Bank, where the occupiers and the occupied regard each other with too much suspicion for there to ever be a satisfactory resolution.
End the drug war, and you will end many of these problems. People of all races would be able to reclaim their cities without having to fire a single shot.
Can't getyour mind around that one, can you? Hanh. Better to just go on about how it's a figment of that underdeveloped black imagination. I'm sure CalGal can find a passage in "The Bell Curve" to explain it to your satisfaction.
in that list of 15..how many were actual criminals...and how many were questionable...and how many were innocent?
And as I'm sure we all remember, Amidou Diallo was "armed" with a wallet.
Well, they had been out in the field for a week (right around the time of the Oklahoma bombing). They were driving a rider truck, had about forty 55 gallon drums for their work, and a bunch of drilling equipment for doing working on their well.
Needless to say... they found themselves rather quickly surrounded by federal agents. They had all kinds of epithets in their ears ("maggot" etc.). They were told if they so much as breathed funny they would suffer consequences. They were told not to turn around etc.
My friend was freaked to say the least.
In the end, the feds wouldn't allow them to continue their work until they talked extensively with my friends supervisor AND checked all the barrels. While this was going on one of the feds was drilling my friend with questions, and this is how he found out about the Oklahoma City bombing
When it was all over.. the feds thanked my friend and his coworked for their time and let them go. They took the rest of the day off (per the suggetion of the fed agents).
He doesn't fault them one bit. He's glad he was smart enough to do exactly what they told him, and in return they didn't shoot him.
That doesn't answer my question.
The man said armed with guns, and in one case armed with a long board with nails protruding from it like a mace, and in one case armed with a car the suspect used to run over and kill a policeman. He also pointed out that some of the shootings involved black policemen and that 3 policemen had been killed in the 15 confrontations, also.
I'm only reporting what the man said, not making a judgement on it.
...what I do know is that rioting would be something on the 'not to do' list for forwarding a cause in this society.
"two wrongs don't make it right"
You don't need to be violent to be defiant.
Enron displays political savvy...
...thanks to his longtime association with -- and munificent contributions to -- President Bush, Lay is the envy of corporate America.
Enron: Making of the Market-maker...
"They have shown they can trade almost anything and have a compelling need to dominate any market they go into," said John Olson, an energy analyst with Sanders Morris Harris in Houston. "They do it with a sort of Gulf War military doctrine of using overwhelming force, technology and people, going in with a blitzkrieg to get the best of the market and move on."
It is easy and obvious to condemn mob violence. My point is that if one stops at that, if one says to the black community that their perceptions of being targeted are stupid, easily confirmed misconceptions and respond with further escalation of police force and a further de-legitimation of the black communities cry for change in the social relationship, then we are travelling down the path toward the type of relationship now being enjoyed by the Isrealis and Palestinians. That the issue for our society should not be whether or not we can come up with statistics that show the black community to be mistaken, but to seek to fix the alienation experienced by the black community. This seems so obvious to me that I initially felt a little silly stating such an obvious point, but it is now equally obvious that the level of denial present requires us to argue for the obvious.
Oh and Cal says They aren't my opinions about urban blacks. I will then wait until you express an actual concrete opinion of your own to discuss further with you Cal.
I am reminded of a time I got called a racist by this guy in my dorm. The guy was a prick and I didn't like him and I wasn't shy about expressing my dislike for him. He called my behavior toward him racist, but I told him it had nothing to do with him being black.. I just thought he was a prick.
At the time I was even living with a black guy, and hung out with others and he new it, so the accusation always struck me as misplaced.
I remember walking alone at dusk one time and there was a group of 4 black youths dressed in the popular gangsta style. They definitely were projecting an agressive aura... not toward me, but definitely had a look about them. I of course felt immediately threatened by their presence.
I maintain that it had nothing to do with them being black... that it had to do with the way they were projecting agression.
A friend of mine I debate with alot, felt my feeling of apprehension racist. I wholeheartedly disagreed. I was by myself, in a neighborhood that had a certain reputation, with a group of blacks projecting themselves in an agressive manner (although not necessarily at me).
I would have reacted the same way to a group of white youths.
Oh, I do have an opinion. My opinion is that your opinion on this subject is ludicrous and easily assailable by demonstrating how quickly you would change your tune if another angry group was substituted for "blacks".
Once you have have achieved something approaching intellectual integrity, then we can talk. But for now, your opinion is so dishonest it's really not worth doing anything other than mocking it.
Dealing with racism in this culture requires a number of different approaches. And there's no short-term "solution" for Cincinnati --especially now when feelings are running high. Actions speak louder than words, as always. And you must remember, there's more than just the media count of 15 black people killed byt the cops that's at stake. There's everyday life where urban blacks are living in an armed camp.
As for CalGal, once you have have achieved something approaching intellectual integrity, then we can talk. But for now, your opinions are so dishonest it's really not worth doing anything other than mocking it.
"Cincinnati is an odd place. Several grad school friends wound up there and I used visit often when I lived closer. They all liked it, even though they thought it was very conservative. It's certainly a more attractive and interesting place than its near nighbors like Inidanapolis (a very wierd and probably more conservative place) and Columbus, and has better developed cultural institutions. And I got the impression that factors like that helped it attract people like my friends, ins pite of everything else.
The city has a social class problem that cuts across race---a surprisngly large number of affluent people still live in the city. The poor and working class, black & white, have been hit by the decline of some of Cincy's historic smokestack industries.
The business community presents an odd set of contradictions. Procter & Gamble has a long history of doing well with gender and race equality, and after years of typical excuse-giving--has gotten religion, of sorts, on the environment. OTOH, they do things like use the DA's office to spy on employees. Carl Linder, the local equivalent of Warren Buffett, supports some liberal as well as many conservative causes and is a big supporter of Jewish causes, although I think he's a Baptist. And that crackpot Keating (of S&L fame and various anti-porn campaigns) used to be based there. Historically, it's cycled through periods of nationally-recognized reform and incredible corruption. It kindof figures that if a place is going to go to extremes it may well be Cincinnati."
The point about the individual experiences I had is that the people actually labeled me racist. I can't help but project this into larger scales, just like your experience with racists can't keep you from projecting it to larger scales.
What's the latest on LA's attempts to "reform" their department? Haven't they gone through a string of police chiefs?
Just because I don't know... what happens to cops who kill innocent people? They don't keep their jobs do they? The FBI is currently doing a preliminary investigation of the officers involved in Cinnci... what are the results of other similar FBI investigations in other cities?
Also... how often do cops actually get convicted for criminal behavior. I know they have the much-ballyhooed blue veil and they don't snitch on each other. What's it going to take to break this code of silence?
It all depends on how heavily the particular precinct is into the drug trade. It's easy to "take back the neighborhood" when it's small-time stuff. When larger quantities of drugs and
graft are involved, things change. Overall the cops couldn't care less whether those living in the Designated Ghetto (as L.A. built de facto segregation into it's city planning from the start) live or die.
You can find a great deal of background to all of this in "Dark Alliance" by Gary Webb (Seven Stories press, 1999) which I'm sure you'll remember was dismissed as a lot of leftist paranoid ranting -- only for the CIA to cop for it all later on in teeny stories that made the far back pages. I'll never forget that CIA director John Deutsch at a town meeting here in L.A. He'd never seen so many black faces in one place in his wholelife. And he had no way of dealing with "rabble" who were far more informed about the situation than he was.
Ah but the difference is no one's going to arrest you for being percieved as a racist.
And I project no further in my experiences than the LAPD itself.
This isn't aracistcity. It's just got a WHOLE lot of racist cops.
The Sherrif's dept., BTW is quite different from the LAPD. Plenty corrupt, but nowhere near as racist or homophobic.
"What's the latest on LA's attempts to "reform" their department? Haven't they gone through a string of police chiefs?"
And there will be more to come. The current one, Bernard Parks, is in major trouble re. the Ramparts mess. He was just doing his job -- burying the bad news.
Traditionally police who get their names in the papers for a racial killing are transferred to a
"desk job" for a short period. There's an "internal investigation," and they are INVARIABLY cleared.
Rafael Perez has shaken things up in PR terms. But the LAPD and the Mayor and Courts found a way to get a recent,quite unprecedented, trial and conviction of some Ramparts officers thrown out.
Same old, same old.
Now Bush is making plans severing it from the rest of the U.S.
Why aren't there any intrepid young reporters using hidden cameras like the 60 minuts of yor? I remember they did some pretty kick ass stuff when they would send a black couple in to apply for an apartment somewhere... and the management would make them fill out all kinds of paperwork, run around...etc.
Then the white couple (with an identical prfofile) would go in, and it'd be like no big deal. I always loved watching the managers try to explain themselves as they watched the tape.
Still... at the end of the report they said that _most_ of the places they went, the couples were treated essentially the same.
I've seen it done for golf courses too... pretty glaring... but it got the same caveat... most didn't act in a racist way.
I think if they caught the LAPD doing enough of this on tape... on national TV... wheels would start to turn.
The level of taxation
The degree og gun control
The environmental laws
hardly a republican MO
They had a grip on power -- which they squandered on ideological jihaads. Remember how Dornan got beated by Roberta Sanchez? She was literally nobody. But she understood the district she was representing and spoke to the people there. Dornan never did. He just used his seat as a platform for his nutball spewing against gays and anyone else that he didn't care for.
"Why aren't the politicians projecting a little power on the LA police? Surely the state government could use the state bureau of investigation to independently root this kind of thing out."
Because the business interests (and politicians represent business -- not everyday citizens) like things the way they are.
They're TERRIFIED that the black community is going to rise up, march out of south central, head for Beverly Hills, and kill them all.
The riot only got about as far as Third and LaBrea. Nowhere near WeHo much less Beverly Hills and Brentwood.
The cops during all this were nowhere to be found. Cowardly pieces of shit!
Because it's no longer a novelty. Don Hewitt is BORED with being a fake liberal. He's a Conservative now.
Hell --isn't everyone?
...if we're all spying on each other... everyone will behave?...right?
I am somewhat serious. If people did take it upon themselves to catch the police in the act confronting people who are not engaged in any criminal behavior... on tape... you might get somewhere.
But if some of these neighbors are as much like a war zone as you make them out... no wonder they're so much on edge when they go in there.
It's one thing to get a tape made. It's quite another to get it shown.
Remember -- George Holliday was a white guy. Would the news departments have been as interested if he had been black? I ask,I do not know.
If it's a freeway chase, however, they'll put every camera they've got onto it.
I'm actually not familiar with most of the people you mention... I'm on the opposite coast from you.... in a town where cops shoot themselves.
Actually they got caught in their own crossfire when they unloaded their entire clips at some dude who was effectively trying to commit suicide by pulling a toy gun out after instigating a confrontation with them.
I've dealt with police officers in some way or another almost everywhere I've lived, but not here. I'm told by friends of mine, that the cops here have a hardon for giving everyone in general a hard time... or so the rumor goes...
Between that and the itchy trigger fingers... I'm not to keen about them, but they've never killed anyone (that suicide lived too).
That seems to be happening with greater frequency. All the news of police shootings has driven some suicidal exhibitionists to try to bait them into killing them.
I believe there's a large element of this with the freeway chases. They're ALWAYS caught.
He also pointed out that some of the shootings involved black policemen and that 3 policemen had been killed in the 15 confrontations, also.
1 police officer per 5 criminals is a completely unacceptable ratio.
The police should be rioting.
First of all, the second quote in post #15738 was Joezan's, not mine. Second, I don't who you think you are quoting in the line above but it sure as hell is not me. Is it possible for you address any issue without lying about it? Unlike you I don't judge people by the color of their skin and their nothing you can quote that indicates I do. Why don't you try something new and discuss a subject honestly for once.
This is not a figment of anyone's imagination. It is a conscious distortion of the truth by people seeking personal gain at the expense of the community as a whole.
I am saying nothing of the kind. I am saying that YOU are seriously misperceiving the situation. You are taking the actions of a small percentage of the black population as an indicator of the feelings of the majority. There is a small group of people who want to be perceived as leaders who are making claims about the "black community" without have any legitimate constiuency. I am telling you that you have been suckered in a con game.
He knew you weren't a racist. It was just easier for him to call you a racist than to admit that he is a prick.
I'm not "backing away from" anything, vonK.
That the issue for our society should not be whether or not we can come up with statistics that show the black community to be mistaken, but to seek to fix the alienation experienced by the black community...
Wrong.
Maybe, if we start showing them how wrong they are, it'll start sinking in that they need to look inward, and that "the man" is but a straw man, and an easy target for their rage.
How about we start by shoving these stats down their throats every time something like this happens?
To wit: on the evening news, instead of reporting "So-and-so is the fifteenth Black killed by the police in the past year...PERIOD", we report the whole story -that all 15 were criminals, engaged in criminal acts at the time: That 13 of them were killed after assaulting an officer with a weapon; That there were hundreds more instances where police were assaulted, but managed to subdue the assailant without killing him; That during the same period, there were no assaults with weapons on police officers committed by Whites, which pretty well accounts for the dearth of White martyrs for the cause of Mayhem and Anarchy.
Then, we start an "Education Campaign", whereby we inform the citizens of every inner-city, "Police officers carry guns. When you attack an officer, you may very well be shot and killed."
Now is this ASS-KICKIN' diplomacy, or what???!!!
WASHINGTON, April 16 — A U.S. aircraft carrier is
steaming toward a position in the South China Sea
where it could launch fighter jets to protect U.S.
reconnaissance flights off China’s coast when
those flights resume, Navy officials said yesterday
...Adm. Dennis C. Blair, U.S. military commander for the Pacific, last week suggested three possible courses of action to the Bush administration, an official said: Send the Kitty Hawk on a slow, northward track through the South China Sea; tell it to linger farther south of the Philippines; or keep it on its planned course toward Guam.
The Kitty Hawk, based in Yokosuka, Japan, is part of Carrier Battle Group Five, which includes several other ships. The battle group is commanded by Rear Adm. Robert F. Willard, a career aviator who was the aerial coordinator for “Top Gun,” the Tom Cruise movie about Navy fighter pilots that culminates in an aerial confrontation at sea.
I wonder how available Top Gun is in Cina?
These unbelievable sums are going to enrich Bush campaign contributors and close friends. The price gouging threatens the US economy and even Sen. Larry Craig recently endorsed wholesale price caps.
Can you imagine the outcry if OPEC were to raise oil prices to $200/bbl???
But the Bastard Imbecile of the US is "focused", his moron mind is "on message" to get Ken Lay everything Ken Lay wants.
Let Them Shovel - Krugman
Why do you keep mentioning Bush? The problem started when Clinton was in office (No, I'm not blaming him.) Clinton said he was going to do anything about the local problem, a surprisingly sensible position. I don't recall an outcry against the President over that decision. Now Bush takes the same position as Clinton, and you are whining like a stuck pig.
CA created this problem; let CA solve it.
From his article:
In 1999 California spent $8 billion on electricity; this year, according to experts like Stanford's Frank Wolak, it may spend as much as $70 billion. ...If that $70 billion figure is right, the rise in California's electricity bill over the past two years will amount to almost $2,000 for every man, woman, and child in the state.
$2000 per person. Sounds like an incredible amount, doesn't it? yet he fails to distinguish personal consumption from industrial and commercial, so we don't have an easy way to compare. I just checked my electric bills, and I paid $3100 in the last year. How much was spent at my office, at grocery stores, at the library etc? If my personal bill represents half of the total, then my current spending is in line with the current CA costs. Which would mean that they were paying about 1/10 as much. (This seems so incredible, I frankly doubt it. I must be missing something.)
There are 31,000,000 Californians and many of us don't have air-conditioners (in SF we have fog) or heavy duty electric heating bills.
My electricity bill is less than $500 a year.
And the reason I mention Bush is that he opposes wholesale electricity price caps and in so doing let's Dynergy, Reliant, and Enron get away with highway robbery.
The major stumbling block short of legislation is FERC which has only one Democratic member and is chaired by a Bush appointee, the brain-dead ideologue Hebert mentioned in Krugman's article.
Clinton could certainly have tried to persuade FERC to a different course of action but faced with a GOP knee jerk lock on the Commission, he'd have been pissin in the wind.
Then too, he probably wasn't too interested in letting Bush of this particular hook. Of course Bush won't support the Feinstein, Smith bill or any other common-sense price cap. Clinton knew it and so do you.
Again, its not that hard to come to some real world understanding here.
Imagine your reaction if say in August you awoke one morning to find that the price of a gallon of gas had risen from $2 to $60 a gallon or more?
Take it from one who grew up in the Deep South, then moved to L.A.: Los Angeles is the most racist city I have ever seen. Why? Simply because it pretends to be full of progressive-minded people, and indeed many of its inhabitants have deluded themselves into thinking themselves as being racially sensitive. But make no mistake: the role of the the LAPD has always been to protect people north of the Santa Monica Freeway and west of La Cienega from everybody else. Everybody knows this; they're just too hypocritical to admit it.
No, actually, California didn't create the problem. Even had we deregulated "properly", we still would have been at risk for the same market gouging that happened. Britain deregulated "properly" and pays exorbitantly high power prices. Also, it's not like California is an extravagant power consumer to start with--as your profligate $3000 power bill demonstrates. We are 49th in per capita power consumption and often find it amusing when wastrels like you think it's appropriate to point fingers.
But quite apart from all that, it is already well beyond being a "California only" problem. It has already spread to all of the Western states--all of which, save our own most sensible state, voted for Bush. Republican senators from the other states are already urgently warning Bush about it.
It is also expected to move to the East coast this summer, because now that the power companies have gotten used to the gouging, they are expected to continue to do so. New York and neighbors are next up.
Then, of course, there's the fact that if the California economy takes a hit Bush can kiss off a very substantial percentage of his expected surplus. Hell, I think we pay for some 10 states singlehandledly.
So there's only a limited amount of time that he can get away with letting his cronies at Enron et al collect billions in profits.
Mike Davis describes how this works in detail in "City of Quartz (Verso, 1990)
Needless to say the usual Conservabot "Think Tank" robots have been after his head ever since.
That City is a cesspool of race hate, ghettos (rich and poor ones), gated communities and a fascist police dept trying to keep it all together.
Having grown up in the South and lived in LA myself....
Now he's something of a media star in the Southland but as usual, we NorCals don't pay much attention to that part of the state
I wonder, though, whether this is a bad thing. Economists say that, with regulated prices, electricity demand is inelastic, and thus leads to more waste. Perhaps deregulated prices provide greater incentives for efficiency? If it's all about how we spend scarce resources, shouldn't higher energy prices be a good thing? Won't that draw more alternative or renewable production into the market?
In J.J.'s world Blacks are backward children easily exploited by shysters. The notion that the police are their enemies is a hysterical delusion, comparable to that story about Richard gere getting a gerbil stuck in his rectum. Why don't they listen to reason (ie. whites and lawn jockeys) who work 24/7 to tell them what their place is and guide them there with a friendly shove?
Sad, sad, sad.
But my experience in Eastern Europe is that the longer you suspend the axe of the market through regulation, the harder that axe falls once you let it go.
End of story. Yes the Pete Wilson deregulation sucked - but every interest group backed the damned thing thinking that supply was superabundant and PUC pricing inflated.
Other than Krugman and an EXCELLENT show on KQED's This Week in Northern California, the analyses in the media are pretty much worthless.
I see what you're saying, but as a general rule I don't think that price manipulation is considered desirable, and that's why Britain pays so much. It is also why we in California paid so much. For all the news about 2000 power costs in California, it is not often reported that 1999 power consumption was actually higher than in the year 2000. And, of course, we don't consume all that much to start with (per capita). The difference is because the power companies manipulate the price deliberately.
California could cut its consumption by 50% and still be forced to pay very high consumer rates.
So while higher prices might be a good thing, I think for starters they need to be subject to normal market forces, which means not giving suppliers the ability to manipulate the market.
I posted to you about that a while back. I stood up and cheered when the KTVU reporter said, "Look. The only thing that might work is if California radically reduced their power consumption to attempt to bring the power companies to their knees."
Because we'd be able to call their bluff. The power companies would probably instantly raise their prices because they weren't making their expected profit margin. PG&E would still demand another consumer rate increase because if power consumption drops dramatically, they won't be able to make the profits they expect.
But we'd need a consumer rebellion, state wide, to make that happen.
Put another way, the risk taker is usually punished in rate based regulation and technological innovation suffers. I think a decent argument can be made that electric power is a different animal, one that is largely immune to this form of economic foot and mouth disease.
...for reinforcement of your convictions, see Message # 15765.
The key is every man, woman, child Dusty.
I understood that. There are four in my family. If my house bill represents half our total consumption, then our total cost is in line with the CA cost. So what's the problem?
My electricity bill is less than $500 a year.
Sounds like you are underpaying. I can understand that people will be upset when costs go up, but if they start from an unreasoanble low level, where's the beef?
I'm still not convinced the numbers are right, but I don't see the flaw.
Imagine your reaction if say in August you awoke one morning to find that the price of a gallon of gas had risen from $2 to $60 a gallon or more?
It sounds like a better analogy would be "how would I feel if gas jumped from $.20 to $3.00?"
The answer is, unhappy, but I wouldn't have a good basis to bitch.
Part One
Part Two
Also, it's not like California is an extravagant power consumer to start with--as your profligate $3000 power bill demonstrates.
??
How do you conclude that I am profligate?
Knee-jerk regulators always whine that this situation is different. Usually, there is a modicum of sense to the argument, such as in health care, and natural monopolies. But the arguments a re seldom persuasive, just feel-good excuses to rationalize a power grab by the state.
We're sorry that you're front-line fighter planes
can't outmaneuver a 35 year old prop-driven airliner. Perhaps you'd like to consider purchasing some surplus 1950's era Lockheed Starfighters from Taiwan. (Who just replaced all theirs with shiny new F-16's)
We're sorry that you believe your territorial waters extend all the way to Australia. For future reference, here's an American 6th grade geography textbook. (Please take note of the Copyright information printed inside the cover.)
We're sorry that you can't seem to see your part of this incident. We know that it may seem easier to blame others than to take responsibility.
Consider this while we build several new Aegis
destroyers for our friends in the real Republic of China.
Too many lies; too much misinformation to take that link seriously. I only made it though part of the first link. When it hit the blunder quota, I stopped reading.
Agreed.
Yeah, I had the same reaction as Dusty, I got as far as accusing the US of involvement in the Sino-British Opium Wars and hit my max.
Interesting discussion going on MSNBC regarding the Cincy situation. Two black police officers articulating the position of the black community. But they are, of course, simply self-serving dupes.
In my experience, it's not a power grab by the government but an attempt at restraint of trade by the group clamoring to be regulated (so as to protect their own interests at the exclusion of others).
Recent example here in Va -- the Milk Commission used to specify a floor price for milk. Don't ask me why -- but they used to be very politically powerful. Anyhow, the Commission recently decided to do away with that regulation on a trial basis. So now small grocers and 7-11's everywhere are bitching and belly-aching about Kroger and Food Lion selling milk for $69/gallon as a loss leader.
Boo fucking hoo.
Is the author a libertarian? How embarrassing!
A libertarian stretching to make a point, I gather.
Fair point(re power grab).
I used to be a dairy farmer (sort of), but I didn't support price supports for milk. I never depended on it to support a family; I wonder if I would have felt differently?
Why are you unable to address one of my posts without lying about what I said? I have neither said nor implied this in anything I have written. You are being deliberately dishonest. If you can't post honestly, don't respond to my posts. I am about the only one here NOT making generalizations about blacks. Even the quote you used demonstrates this. Why are you unable to deal with this honestly?
Your position couldn't be clearer, J.J.
I'm with JJ.
I'm mystified as to how you manage to post what you did about him, aside from making shit up from whole cloth.
Usually such pap turns up in Marxist mush or in any of several strains of the looney left. But now a wignut!
How nice. I have always held as truth that what black people really need is a good white person to sort out this stuff for them.
How can your posts be honest when you claim I make generalizations about blacks when I have made none?
It's very clear which blacks you find acceptable and which you don't.
Really? You have shown absolutely no understanding of anything I have said.
Your position couldn't be clearer, J.J.
Then why do you insist on claiming I have said something I haven't?
My position is that it is unfair to judge the hundreds of thousands of blacks in Cincy based on the actions of a few dozen or even a few hundred. Do you believe we should judge them on that basis? My position is that those who claim to speak for the "black community" actually speak only for themselves. They have not been elected or appointed as spokesmen so they don't have the authority to speak for others. Do you believe we should just accept their word even though they act without the support of the vast majority of blacks?
Explain how anything you have posted to me is an honest response to these positions.
See this is just the sort of ideological garbage that I am talking about. The question is economic not lame American Right Wing Political Preachment.
Power grabs by the Evil State. Shivers.
All I know is that energy conglomerates are taking an extra 60 billion give or take from the people of California. No representation. Nothing but an Enron Giants pin to show for it.
Spare me the ideological piffle.
ROI rate regulation in the electric generation business has simply not had the deleterious effects it has had in other industries because the by its nature, technological innovation in that field is very hard to come by in a cost effective way.
Carry on.
See this is just the sort of ideological garbage that I am talking about.
Well, admitting that you spout intellectual garbage is a start.
In fact, some of the most egregious displays I've seen come not from the white wingnut but from the white looney leftist, activists.
Your Message # 15848 reflects one of the underpinning view of David Horowitz, which I believe to be equally correct as applied to gender issues. Infantalizing blacks and women does service to the causes of neither.
I go where the facts lead and all I said was that a case can be made and has been made that price-regulation of electric utilities is NOT the boogey man that deregulation proponents in this area gleefully assumed.
Perhaps you should see a doctor and get it fixed.
Pronunciation: 'velt-"än-"shau-&[ng]
But you see Dusty, I don't have a one-sized fits all American Gothic weltanschlung that you seem to at least in this discussion.
How ironic. That's exactly what I saw you as doing. "Regulation may be unwarranted in other instances but it is justified for (fill-in-the-blank), because our situation is unique."
I see this statement all the time. So when you trot out this tired cliché, it looks like a "one-size fits all" answer.
If I had expressed knee-jerk opposition to all regulation, your response might carry some weight.
I didn't say that regulation "might" be unwarranted in some cases. Indeed the premise of my earlier post was that it IS not a good idea in many or most cases. And in point of fact, I also said that a "good case can be made" for electric utility rate regulation. Note the precatory language.
But again why quibble? You evidently had some other person in mind when you made those remarks.
Democrats countered the budget was dead on arrival, citing this month's vote in the Senate to slash $400 billion from Bush's 10-year tax cuts and shift more funds to education, defense, agriculture, Medicare and other programs.
Stepping up the assault, House Democrats issued a new analysis of how the president's budget would ``dissipate virtually the entire'' non-Social Security (news - web sites), non-Medicare surplus over 10 years, leaving almost no margin for any contingency.
According to the analysis by the House Budget Committee's ranking Democrat, John Spratt of South Carolina, Bush's budget would spend part of the Medicare surplus in 2005 and 2006, jeopardizing the federal health care insurance program for the elderly and disabled.
House Democrats also accused the White House of overstating the size of the budget's so-called contingency reserve. According to Spratt, the reserve would total just $318 billion -- not $1.4 trillion as asserted in the budget.
``With no meaningful reserve for at least the first nine years, any use of the contingency reserve, for whatever contingency, would drive the budget into, or further into, the red,'' he said in the analysis.
``President Bush's budget suffers from a fundamental lack of vision,'' Spratt said.
Lack of vision?
Such charity! Must be the Easter Spirit-thing.
Try lack of gray matter and/or a calculator shortage at 1600 Pa Ave.
Clinton must have stolen all of them.
I'll refresh you in case you forgot..there was bitchin aplenty at OPEC's oligarchy and price gouging and a couple of recessions too!
The point is Bush will give Ken Lay something no American president would dare tolerate from OPEC.
Rock the Casbah!
I'll refresh you in case you forgot..there was bitchin aplenty at OPEC's oligarchy and price gouging and a couple of recessions too!
The point is Bush will give Ken Lay something no American president would dare tolerate from OPEC.
Rock the Casbah!
More
While the U.S.-made PortaBush software for handheld computers wasn't released with much fanfare last week, it became a big hit in China very quickly. Released a week ago by Marina Del Ray, CA-based Eruptor Entertainment, the software toy is similar to the faded Tamagotchi craze.
Players feed their PortaBush, keep him happy and help him make vital national decisions like whether to bomb teen singer Britney Spears." Bush has certainly brought "honor and dignity" to the Oval Office! Can you say laughingstock?
Welcome to the GOP's ethical Washington, where Rep. Tom DeLay sells White House access and Bush ladles corporate gravy over his "fat-free" budget.
"April 13, 2001 | When releasing his first budget this week, President Bush made it sound like a watershed event: "This budget offers a new vision for our nation," he proclaimed. "It also represents a new way of doing business in Washington, and a new way of thinking."
I guess Rep. Tom DeLay and Speaker Denny Hastert didn't get the "new way of doing business" memo"
Ariana Huffington
Give those boys some credit for knowing a load of BushShit when they smell it!
The FBI investigates police violence cases for
the Justice Department under federal "summary punishment" statutes that prohibit the police from inflicting unnecessary injury on suspects or prisoners.
But the FBI also depends on local police cooperation in the investigation of other federal crimes. Since the FBI's reputation depends upon cultivating an image of success in the investigation of crimes, and since the FBI
relies more heavily on local law enforcement than
people generally realize, there is a strong disincentive for FBI agents to find wrongdoing on the part of local police.
Did anyone read the Jack White column? He said that the danger black males face at the hands of the police is absolutely real. He also said that it's not just the white police who rely on the stereotype--the black police do, he himself does, as do many other African Americans. That everyone would be crazy not to.
"I go where the facts lead and all I said was that a case can be made and has been made that price-regulation of electric utilities is NOT the boogey man that deregulation proponents in this area gleefully assumed."
Better send a Memo to Gray Davis. Apparently he thinks that price-regulation is the boogey man. He carefully explained the esoteric concepts of "supply" and "demand" to a clueless California two weeks ago.
It's not just jex saying that power might not follow the same deregulation path that long distance did. It is relatively immune to market forces.
cal,
Yes, the laws of supply and demand do not, apparently, exist in Clueless California.
Riiiight.
Put on price controls keeping the price of power at sub-market levels and suddenly --get this! -- the juice stops flowing to California, and utility companies go bankrupt.
But I'm sure that's just a coincidence, Cal.
Dusty...I could be wrong but I venture that you are old enough to recall the First Energy Crisis when gas prices did go from a few bits to nearly 2 bucks....not 3...
You are correct that I do remember the Energy Crisis. The bad news (for you) is that I remember what did happen, unlike your creative recollection.
In 1974, shortly after I finished school, I moved to Hartford CT. A friend of mine came to visit, and I remember that you could buy gas every other day, the day dependent on your tag number. My friend had to get up early in the morning to get into the gas line, to buy enough gas to drive back to New Hampshire.
Yes, we thought it was scandalous that gas costs exceeded 50¢ a gallon! By 1976, it hit 60¢. (Not "nearly 2 bucks"). Prices didn't move for a couple years, and the nation was lulled to sleep. the second wave hit in 1979, when gas prices jumped again, this time hitting over $1.30 in the next couple years (Still not $2.00, unless you were buying hightest.)
So yes, I do remember the crisis. Did you have a point?
Are you incapable of responding on point?
Cal,
See if you can understand this:
If I can only sell you widget at a cost which is less than my price of production (i.e., I take a loss on each sale), how many widgets will I sell you?
A) As many widgets as you like
B) No widgets, except for those few widgets an incompetent judge might force me to sell to you
Next question:
If widgets are sold to you through an intermediary -- let us call it a Widget Utility -- which is forced to buy widgets at market price and is then forced to sell widgets at below-market price, what will happen?
A) Nothing--Widgets will flow like wine
b) The Widget Utility will cut the flow of widgets, for each widget costs them a *loss*, to the lowest levels possible under law; ultimately, however, their money will run out (and thus their capacity to continue providing widgets at a loss) and they will go bankrupt.
The answers, for anyone playing along, are B and B.
Let's keep this focused. The issue is whether or not there is a legitimate reason to assert that power is a utility that doesn't respond to market forces. Your response is not on point.
"The issue is whether or not there is a legitimate reason to assert that power is a utility that doesn't respond to market forces. Your response is not on point."
uhhhh, supply and demand -- and surplus and shortage -- *are* market forces, CluelessGal.
If you are claiming that the power market is inelastic, you are incorrect.
High prices leads voluntary conservation by customers leads to equilibrium.
Businesses which use a great deal of power may be forced to cut production, or close down, or move to where power is cheaper, if energy costs rise too high. Once again, this naturally eases demand.
Yes, but only if they have any relation to price, Ace. Now, there is relatively little question that Californian demand would have dropped had they been hit with the true cost of the energy. However, there is no--zilch, nada--evidence that prices would have dropped when demand did.
Of course, there is the Clueless California mentality -- "I shouldn't *have* to move my business to a cultural backwater like Scottsdale, Arizona, to cut my costs! I have a *right* to set up shop in the super-expensive area of San Francisco!" -- which makes such fairly *normal* notions as moving a business "impossible" for all intents and purposes.
Equilibrium doesn't happen--or it happens far, far above reasonable market rates no matter what consumption is.
For example, Ace, power consumption in California was less in 2000 than it was in 1999. And yet prices were substantially higher. Hmm. Wonder why that is?
"However, there is no--zilch, nada--evidence that prices would have dropped when demand did."
No, prices don't necessarily DROP, CalGal. They simply reach a new equilibrium and stop rising.
If power costs have risen by 25%, reduced demand won't bring prices back down. Reduced demand will, however, estabish an equilibrium and keep power flowing at these higher prices.
If prices rise in response to increased costs and increased competition, power will *FLOW*, CluelessGal. If you establish a forced sub-market price, the flow will *STOP*.
It's like talking to a third-grader.
"For example, Ace, power consumption in California was less in 2000 than it was in 1999. And yet prices were substantially higher. Hmm. Wonder why that is?"
Ummmm... increased costs?
But this doesn't happen, Ace. Power is a very easy market to manipulate.
Nope.
The Chronicle has outdone itself, course that's not sayin much now is it.
In J.J.'s world Blacks are backward children easily exploited by shysters. The notion that the police are their enemies is a hysterical delusion, comparable to that story about Richard gere getting a gerbil stuck in his rectum. Why don't they listen to reason (ie. whites and lawn jockeys) who work 24/7 to tell them what their place is and guide them there with a friendly shove?
No...how about opening up the dialogue within the Black community, instead of shouting down and doing everything imaginable to marginalize those Blacks who do not go along with the party line?
It's always amazed me that charlatans the likes of Leonard Jeffries, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson hold more sway in the debate over what to do about "Black disenfranchisement"..."alienation"...yadda, yadda, yadda, than do Blacks who are eminently more qualified, more lucid, more result-driven, and just plain more sane.
As someone mentioned earlier in this discussion -there will be more riots, which will result in more concessions - concessions which will not work, because they do not address the real problem.
...giving the "disenfranchised" ammunition for more hell-raising.
The company's list of political consultants has included: Bill Paxon, a former conservative leader in the House; Ralph Reed, one-time head of the Christian Coalition; former Sen. J. Bennett Johnston, D-La., and Elizabeth "Betsy" Moler, former chairwoman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and one-time deputy energy secretary.
So that's how that lovely Shenendoah "Architectural Digest" log cabin (yeah right) was paid for.
Protest duly lodged!
Does Rush Limbaugh amaze you?
Maybe Jerry Falwell amazes you.
I am not surprised much less amazed that you overstate the power of those in-your face black leaders you mention and at the same time denigrate them.
Good white boy!
If in fact your recollection is correct and mine is not, then you have only made my point that much stronger, more compellingly clear, more certain than it already was.
And the point is this - even OPEC is not now nor have they ever in the past nor in their wildest oligarchic fantasies ever done or dreamt of doing to American consumers what what Ken Lay and Bush's other energy buddies are doing.
If you care to defend 1000% increases in electricity prices in the West be my guest.
Its a tall order Dusty but I've every confidence you can pull it off.
Now whatever confidence I may have in Dusty, the same cannot be said for the Moron who authored this garbage.
There isn't a single statement in this quote that is remotely accurate.
Leonard Jeffries and Al Sharpton are MeatPuppt show cloawns. If you don't like 'em, complain to the Defense Department aka. NBC.
Jesse Jackson has been coasting for decades on the marginal role he played in the Civil Roghts movement.
There are FAR MORE IMPORTANT AFRICAN-AMERICANS on the national stage WHO AREN'T LAWN JOCKEYS.
CAN YOU NAME ONE!!!!!!!!!!!
Sez who?
Pearls before swine.
Speakin truth to cracker trash!
;)
Does it really amaze you JoeZ?
Does Rush Limbaugh amaze you?
Maybe Jerry Falwell amazes you.
What amazes me is that either of them are still around.
But....
Abortion is still legal; Gays are still not being strung up - in fact, Clinton did more to hurt their cause than Falwell; The IRS is still there with its hands in our pockets...etc, etc.
Only an idiot, jex, would even attempt to compare the influence Limbaugh and Falwell have with the influence Jackson, et al have.
No comparison at all, really.
Face it, those two irritate the hell out of you and though I admire Jackson to some extent, both he and Sharpton make my white skin crawl too. Throw in Louis Farrakan for a trifecta of irritation.
My point though is that I feel uniquely unqualified to pass on the bona fides or lack thereof of any of these guys....I certainly don't presume to tell blacks that they are idiots to the extent that any think these fellas righteous.
I know my place.
In Florida yesterday, in an incident similar to one in which one of the Cincy 15 Martyrs was killed, another Black man was gunned down by a white cop.
Boo-hoo-hoo.
The cop pulled the guy over, and after the cop gets to the car, the guy takes off - dragging the cop down the street, busting his foot. As he's hanging on, the cop orders the guy to stop. He refuses, and gets blasted.
The whole thing is on tape.
But does this stop Black "community leaders" from coming out of the woodwork to scream racism?
Hell no.
I mean, at what point does it become your place - or any White person's place?
Or does it ever?
My reaction is "so what?". More often than not such public reactions hit rather than miss the mark and to the extent its a miss from a Black perspective these "leaders" you rail against will not be effective unless of course you posit that blacks are less qualified than say you or I to make decisions about their own lives...
For me the angry white man syndrome is just as bad as the Al Sharpton blowhardism, (though I hear he's gaining stature!)and neither are worth getting riled about.
Less comfortable still, paying much attention to Rush Limbaugh or Falwell.
I am not avoiding the issue, for I do speak to it from time to time but I hope that I do with due care not to let my own cultural bias distort things and with some awareness of my particular limitations....face it..being Black is a very different experience than being a Southern white preppie boy, even a moderately liberal one.
I think you overstate because your reaction is more visceral than informed in short.
ARE YOU BLIND OR JUST PLAIN STUPID?
I don't feel competent to speak to the same experience or audience that Jesse speaks with any more than I would feel comfortable lecturing a Japanese about Shinto.
Strange you should equate the culture of victimization with religion...
Then again, maybe not so strange...
If you care to defend 1000% increases in electricity prices in the West be my guest.
I appreciate the vote of confidence.
Its a tall order Dusty but I've every confidence you can pull it off.
I'm curious, can you tell me what you pay for electricity? On a per watt-hour basis? I realize it isn't the whole story, but I'm curious to see whether my bills are so much higher than your old bills because of usage, or because of rates.
...that better, cellar?
"The police are the ones that should be rioting," is Standard Operational Idiocy.
(The Police Riot all the time. Chicago '68 was a Police Riot. Rodney King was a Police Riot.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soaring Electric Use More Fiction Than Fact
Chronicle investigation finds power companies manipulate data to excuse their towering rates
Christian Berthelsen, Scott Winokur, Chronicle Staff Writers Sunday, March 11, 2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power companies say it so often, and with such certainty, that it has become a virtual mantra: "Skyrocketing" energy use by Californians is a root cause of the state's power crisis, and justification for surging electricity prices.
But a computer analysis of electricity usage data by The Chronicle reveals that the mantra is a myth -- that overall growth in electricity demand hasn't been nearly as great as the industry portrays it.
The industry has painted the summer of 2000 as the equivalent of a 100-year storm in meteorology -- an event so powerful and unexpected that the existing infrastructure was devastated by its force.
The statistics show that 2000, taken in total, was nothing of the sort. Moreover, two independent state agencies' assessments of California's power plant capacity appear to show that the growth should have been easily accommodated.
Of course, the State has spent what 4-5 Billion of surplus funds to keep the ship afloat..this in a couple of months nearly equals CA's entire '99 bill. Then there's the bankruptcy of PG&E - a widely held "safe" investment by pension funds and the near insolvency of So.Cal Ed
No credentials for the interplay between fed and state statutes but I have heard the view expressed that PG&E/SoCal Ed's suit to scrap the rate cap regime is worth watching, the more so now that PG&E can get bankruptcy court to take jurisdiction.
Then the shit really hits the fan and funny thing it hits hardest in what passes for Bush country around here - the HOT Central Valley.
There is a God!
I'm no expert on
The largest jump in current dollars - 21.59 to 31.77/ bbl Saudi Light 1980-81 which as I said only makes my analogy more powerful
I understood that my numbers made your point more forcefully. That was one of the odd things about the exchange. The nation went ballistic over a "mere" doubling of gasoline prices; one can understand that an almost ten-fold increase would cause lots of heart ache. However, the pain hasn't directly been sent to the consumer, and I still don't know whether the new cost levels are ten times "reasonable" cost levels, or whether the old levels were low compared to other parts of the country (or some combination). That's why I asked what rate you pay; your total bill doesn't say very much. I'm not sure why you aren't willing to say.
sounds like it to me
J.J.? Indy? Rosie?
what about the albino black woman who was assaulted and called racial slurs?
isn't that a 'hate crime'?
When one person assaults another, the punishment ought to be the same, whether or not they are of differing races and whether or not the assault is inspired by race hatred, class hatred, or just plain old personal hatred. 
Not from me. I support hate crime laws. I can't speak for the others.
The question is not about motivation, but rather the circumstances of the crime. A hate crime is one that demonstrates an open threat to the group in addition to the assault on the individual. If a person is mugged, that is an assault on an individual. If the victim is singled out because he is black or gay and like the cases in Texas and Wyoming, then there it is an attack on the group as a whole, not just the individual. The two crimes are different and should be treated different.
And we would appear to have a Hate Crime situation in Cincy re the albino woman.
But then there are other Hate Crimes in that city done under cover of authority.
The question is not about motivation, but rather the circumstances of the crime.
If not motivation, then why is it called a "hate" crime?
A hate crime is one that demonstrates an open threat to the group in addition to the assault on the individual. If a person is mugged, that is an assault on an individual. If the victim is singled out because he is black or gay and like the cases in Texas and Wyoming, then there it is an attack on the group as a whole, not just the individual.
Before the law, we--whether victim or victimizer--should be treated as individuals, not as part of a "group." To act otherwise is to buy into the mindset of the person whose actions we as a society are punishing.
A hate crime is one that demonstrates an open threat to the group in addition to the assault on the individual.
I'm not comfortable with this logic. Let's pursue it to its logical extreme.
On the other hand, most proponents of hate crimes legislation believe that if you beat up a total stranger to steal their pocket change that is essentially trivial compared to beating up a total stranger because they are gay. As surely that it is certainly true that people are far more likely to be assaulted by petty thieves than hate criminals, it is also true that the predominant victims of petty-theft crime are working-class.
People who are in favor of hate crimes legislation are invariably sick fucks who are insensitive to the suffering of the vast majority of the victims of violent crimes.
JJ Message # 15928 is right on the money.
Interesting post, in light of the one I just posted.
Why is it that most proponents of hate crimes legislation believe that if you beat up a total stranger to steal their pocket change that is essentially trivial compared to beating up a total stranger because they are gay. ?
Logically, if the argument is that the crime against the identifiable group is worse, then a crime against a very large identifiable group (i.e., everyone) should be the worst of all.
Part of me isn't totally serious about this. But part of me is.
I feel I have some control over whether people hate me individually (go ahead, I realize the straight line here), but I don't have much control over a random act of violence. To the extent I worry about being the victim of a crime, I worry about a random act, not an act against me personally. So why wouldn't it be logical for me to push for higher punishment for acts of random violence?
The difference between random violence and targetted by group violence is that targetting the group is meant to threaten and marginalize a specific group in society.
So what? The argument in favor of increased penalties is that other people besides the one attacked feel threatened. Society has a duty to reduce this threat, and increased penalties will reduce the likelihood of future such attacks.
In the case of a random attack, I personally feel threatened, in addition to the person actually attacked, just as in case 2. And society can justifiably act to reduce these instances, through enhanced penalties.
As an aside, there may be some people perpetrating random attacks precisely for the purpose of terrorizing everyone, but even if this isn't the case, the effect is identical in both cases—individuals beyond those personally attacked feel threatened. In both cases, enhanced penalties are an attempt to reduce the number of incidents. Why do you favor one, but not the other?
How odd. I know that laws are often flawed by political considerations, but I didn't think anyone would be so misguided as to praise such interference. One would think that laws ought to do what is right, not what is political.
Why is that "certainly true"? Because playing the stereo too loud warrants being assaulted? What about assaulting someone because you want his money?
Second, how can we know what is occurring in a criminal's mind at the moment he commits a crime? Should we punish him for having "hateful thoughts" at the moment he is smashing his victim's skull?
Anti-hate-crime arguments that as a matter of principle, criminal punishments should not be based on motive seem just laughable.
I think "mitigating/aggravating circumstances" arguments are best left up to a judge and jury for the specific instance. If I kill a man because he's black and that's proved in a court of law, if as you say that "it is certainly true" that i deserve worse punishment, then that certitude should also be present in the judge and jury deciding my fate. At that point, they can use their discretion to throw the book at me.
To institutionalize special recognition of religious faith, racial differences, gender bias, or sexual orientation preferences, however, is a mistake IMO. It just emphasizes that members of one group are different from another and inflames emotions.
Then people started campaigning to add sexual orientation to the list, and all hell broke loose.
It used to be the American ideal to treat all citizens equally and to not single out "groups" for better or worse treatment under the law. Maybe we didn't always practice what we preached, but the ideal was there. Do we really want to substitute "group" preferences for whatever happens to be the noisiest group of the day?
Here is Andrew Sullivan's recent column on the subject:
Why Hate Crimes Laws Represent Moral Bankruptcy
That's an interesting distinction.
If I follow you correctly, you are arguing that it is the act of the division into groups that is at issue, not the fear engendered in the populace.
That when someone targets Christians, or Jews or gays, they are exacerbating divisions of society, forcing people to think in terms of "us" and "them".
An act of violence committed at random may hurt the individual, and engender fear in all people, but it doesn't create any sense of division, so it shouldn't deserve an enhanced penalty. Only acts which exacerbate or create divisions should get such treatment.
You make an interesting case. I think there is an easy way to test it. If you are right, then the proponents of enhanced penalties for division creating crimes would also favor penalties for people who, say, fund college tuition for members of an identifiable group. After all, that creates or enhances divisions.
I'm betting you don't agree.
Half a century ago, the poet W.H. Auden predicted all of this in a long poem entitled "For the Time Being," in which King Herod muses about the future to come in the aptly named "New Age."
"Reason will be replaced by Revelation. Instead of Rational Law, objective truths perceptible to any who will undergo the necessary intellectual discipline, Knowledge will degenerate into a riot of subjective visions … Whole cosmogonies will be created out of some forgotten personal resentment, complete epics written in private languages, the daubs of schoolchildren ranked above the greatest masterpieces. Idealism will be replaced by Materialism. Life after death will be an eternal dinner party where all the guests are 20 years old … Justice will be replaced by Pity as the cardinal human virtue, and all fear of retribution will vanish … The New Aristocracy will consist exclusively of hermits, bums and permanent invalids. The Rough Diamond, the Consumptive Whore, the bandit who is good to his mother, the epileptic girl who has a way with animals will be the heroes and heroines of the New Age, when the general, the statesman, and the philosopher have become the butt of every farce and satire."
-- Jonathan Goldberg, NRO
Dusty - Please, there is an obvious dichotomy between beating up Latinos to keep the Latino community marginalized from society, and funding Latino scholarships to enable more Latinos to become significant participants in society. The two actions are diametrically opposed in intent and consequence.
I don't think McVeigh will be a martyr to reasonable people, Bubb, but I do think killing him will play into his wishes and the zealots who'll identify with him in the future.
To rot in prison is by far the more appropriate punishment -- sooner or latter, when he grows up, he'd have to confront and deal with the heinousness of his act of depravity.
Death is his friend and comforter at this point and Ashcroft's exploitation of the execution is typical of the so called Christian hypocrisy that wants revenge before redemption.
I totally agree. But not to just rot in a cell...but a 3 X 6' cell with no window and only a floor drain for a toilet and lavatory.
(Also regularly poked with a sharp stick everyday at least twice a day at the same time each so that anticipation is best achieved.)
(Also surgically apply abrasive materials on his hands and feet so that other pleasures would come at a most irritating price.)
Any other recommendations would be welcome.
Just compare the way the usual opponents of the dp, the ones who tried to stop the execution of Gary Gilmore despite his opposition, for example, are acting relative to McVeigh versus in the Gilmore case. I think the message is "Strike against the state and we will urge such things as torture rather than an easy death."
I remain opposed to the Death Penalty (save for Andrew Sullivan -- I'd gladly strap the little shit down myself!)
Very perceptive. McVeigh alive would be dangerous to the state. I think this is why his captors want to prevent further interviews, by the way. Another general principle is trashed, that even the condemned should be allowed to talk to the press (remember the endless Carla Faye Tucker interviews before they needled her for planting--what was it--a pickax in someone's chest?
Very funny re Sullivan. I sense via the humor in that comment that deep down you respect his independence and intelligence.
Remove one part of his body for every victim he claimed.
Itinerary:
1st Week - 1 toe
20 weeks go by - so long toes and fingers. Ears, nose account for 3 weeks. hands, feet - 4 weeks...
will need to get real creative as the number of weeks go by to keep him alive as long as possible.
Tell ya, if it were my children, wife, parents...
But that would have to hold true for all murderers, and I tend to agree more with Ronski about the DP when the possibility exist that innocence executed is murder itself.
Would that that wer possible. He has NEVER been independent, and his intelligence (such as it was) hasn't been on view in quite some time.
He's a shallow opportunist, a racist, a snob, and for all his protestations to the contrary, a self-loathing gay man.
His recent sneering over life in the Castro is pretty hilarious to those familiar with his routines at Beltway leather bars.
There must be some kind of glitch in your computer. After your lead-in sentence about Sullivan's Beltway activities, your post stops abruptly.
My apologies: I had also assumed that if you really disliked him you would have attacked what he says, as opposed to offering humorous, mild, allusively vague, and otherwise unpersuasive personal attacks on him.
I'm glad he's going to die because he would never confront and deal with the heinousness of his depraved acts...he never would.
Collectively, we become what he is, the minute he is put to death--that is to say, monsters of hate and beyond that , a mob of vengeance.
Call me a hopeless optimist, but I think after three or four decades in solitary, his awareness will increase and his consciousness would change.
I'd rather know McVeigh was alive to ponder a long drawn out form of punishment where his a guilt could never allow any form of acquittal.
I repeat: Death is his ally!
Like Richard Speck changed?
I respect your opinion on this but I just can't find a way to agree with you on it.
Keep him alive in solitary, but schedule a visit each week from a loved one of each victim get to do one abhorrent thing to him, (shy of killing him). Per se, a kick in the nads, a stab to a lung, a swing with a baseball bat...etc., then put him back (each week)in solitary confinement to "really become aware of life". The boy wants no part of life...let life want no part of him. Repeat until well-done.
Sounds vengeful, but a "mob of vengeance" either way really. I guarantee when he kicks-off this mortal coil...death will MOST certainly be an ally...but not as at this moment.
Another point WoW, is any punishment not an act of vengeance? Should we forsake any punishment so as not to become a vengeful mob through our societal laws, as a society?
Collectively, we become the killers of James Byrd when we put them to death for their crimes.
Collectively, we become the killers of Matthew Shepard when we put them to death for their crimes.
What happens, I wonder, to us, collectively, when we spare this rogue's gallery, and one of them kills again, in prison or out? When one of the James Byrd killers, with his Nazi-prison group, rapes and murders yet another unfortunate check forger.
I suppose it is all worth it to avoid our responsibility as killers.
And think. We can all feel better that maybe, just maybe, Tim McVeigh, after his 27th prison interview with Diane Sawyer, or upon completion of his web site, or after opening his 10,000 piece of fan mail, may feel remorse.
That'll do him.
Equating punishment, after due process no less, for a wrong committed (all of us collective killers) and mass murder of the innocent is borderline retarded. Ace's previous post speaks well to it.
Put them down, and put them down quick. Do not dally on their fates or their suffering, and the effect thereon upon your delicate egos, lest you make them persuasive celebrities.
..especially if they are innocent yet "proven" guilty.
So you can feel better about yourself.
I had a week-long trial in Oklahoma City. One mullett-head put a stake in the heart of that town. Go there. Then, after you see the pictures and toys and pacifiers and flowers and diaries attached to the chain link fence at the site, come back, and tell me that all the families who seek McVeigh's punishment by death, are collectively . . . just like him.
One can only hope...and believe, that it goes above that.
But I'm afraid, in most cases, it does not. I watched 2 very close friends die at the hands of other humans. My first instinct was revenge, and to some extent I achieved it, to the best of my knowledge anyway. But it did not take away the invading permanence, the brutal finality, that whatever I could in all possibility achieve in reaction, would never be enough to diminish the loss, anger, nor the illicit of any change to the fact...except to how it changed me...and the way I needed to change continually everyday thereafter.
To feel good?...no. To end the pain?...no. To allow easier breaths and regain innocence?...no.
To achieve some sense of balance, a sense that equality of events and nature exist. Never will punishment be suitable to gain a personal balance. Never will someone being punished (in such cases)be direct cause of that balance...perceived or otherwise.
To feel good about it never happens. To feel some reference of balance, of a beginning, where/when it seems hell will never end...
But an end that must be found and a starting point from which to go...perceived or otherwise.
Then, it appears, we have become "civilized."
Yep...but as long as a jury, somewhere, keeps looking beyond the "appearance"....there is hope.
What he says, especially lately, is so obviously stupid I feel no need to lower myself by responding to it in any way shape or form.
I don't think I can "persuade" anyone towards my point of view on him -- or anything else.
Sorry that my attacks seem so "mild" to you. I promise to correct that in future.
A Nazi in war shoots a concentration camp victim. In anger, a soldier exacts revenge by shooting the Nazi. Justice.
A civilian blows up the Murragh Building. He is given a sandwich, a cot, a cell, a lawyer, a trial, an appeal, an interview, and life for considerably longer than the infants crushed in the nursery.
Yet, when we kill him, we become him.
Which, I suppose is something other than well-fed and interviewed.
It just makes the state seem entirely powerless, somehow. And maybe it is. But I'll never support it.
I hear you, Francis. I find no easy answers, or comfort, in any of this.
I was in Dallas Texas on the jury of the USA film festival with Todd Haynes when the Federal Building went up. We had a really hard time getting our minds around it. Still do.
So we went to dealy Plaza to relax.
Sorry FU..CG...
That was for CD.
Go there. Then, after you see the pictures and toys and pacifiers and flowers and diaries attached to the chain link fence at the site, come back, and tell me that all the families who seek McVeigh's punishment by death, are collectively . . . just like him.
I did go there, right after the bombing when the building was still smoldering...my son and I had gone up to Oklahoma City to see my elderly aunt and uncle. It was a shattering sight...and the quiet of the crowd was the erriest thing I'd ever seen.
You bet he should be fried...
On that chherful note, I bid you goodnight.
The Death Penalty is the state's ultimate expression of its power, draped in its pretense of regard for you and me. It's alwas "The People vs. The Crimnal du Jour" I would be far more sanguine about this were I convinced of the state's regard for my well-being in other spheres. And I am not.
I am very happry to see Timothy McVeigh taken off this mortal sphere in whatever manner comes to hand. But I don't flattermyself to think that the state is doing this for the benefit of anything other than its corporate owners.
I aslo dislike the spectacle of execution --especially the dishonestway its "peek-a-boo" viewed here in the U.S.A.
Who are we to judge if capital punishment is wrong or right?
Teacher asks Sarah: "What did you do at recess?"
Sarah says, "I played in the sand box."
Teacher says "that's good. Go to the blackboard, and if you can write 'sand' correctly, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie."
She does and gets a cookie.
Teacher asks Morris what he did at recess.
Morris says, "I played with Sarah in sand box."
Teacher says, "Good. If you write 'Box" correctly on the blackboard, I'll give you a fresh baked cookie."
Morris does, and gets a cookie.
Teacher then asks Mustaffa Abdul Mahmoud what he did at recess.
He says, "I tried to play with Sarah and Morris, but they threw rocks at me."
Teacher says, "Threw rocks at you? That sounds like blatant racial discrimination. If you can go the blackboard and write 'blatant racial discrimination' I'll give you a cookie."
"Another point WoW, is any punishment not an act of vengeance? Should we forsake any punishment so as not to become a vengeful mob through our societal laws, as a society? "
I don't think punishment necessarily means death and vengeful motivation is mostly self-destructive.
15960. JudithAtHome - 4/17/01 10:39:08 PM
"I think after three or four decades in solitary, his awareness will increase and his consciousness would change."
Like Richard Speck changed? "
Speck was/is(?) a deranged psychopath -- I think McVeigh's act was that of an infantile and deluded fool -- kind of like Francis Urquhart !
Niner's seething spittle speaks for itself.
As always, he slyly distorts other's posts into the projections and droppings from his own petty squirrel cage of a mind.
Get some help, you angry little twerp. 
I will preview my posts...
I will preview my posts...
Fists of steel in a velvet glove...surprise me!
That you could post this about somebody else is truly amazing.
It doesn't deter
It doesn't provide "closure" (barf!)
It is not justified to protect society...
BUT society as a legitimate right to VENGEANCE and that is the only supportable argument for the DP....
Hey Chipmunk..watch out ... you're about due for the same treatment
Wiz ROXXXX!!!
Insomnia, insomnia.
BLACK COPS AND GUNS: Worthwhile number-crunching from FrontPage magazine on police homicides. From the Cincinnati riots to the real worries about racial profiling, we're all used to the idea that white cops are somewhat trigger-happy with black suspects. Worth noting then that, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 1998, "the black-officer-kills-black-felon rate was 32 per 100,000 black officers - much higher than the white-officer-kills-black-felon rate of 14 per 100,000 white officers." This may well be partly explained by the preponderance of black cops in black districts. But it certainly complicates the simplistic view that white cops are gunning for black suspects with wild abandon. In fact, the rate at which white cops have been killing black criminals has been dropping for two decades. Tell that to Al Sharpton.
-- Andrew Sullivan.
Let me see... white cops kill black supsects at a rate of 14 per 100,000 felons; black cops kill black supsects at a rate of 32 per 100,000 black felons.
Tell me, Cellar and Jexster, does this mean that blacks are unqualified to serve as police officers?
But your point is still valid.
Dusty,
No, I was translating for Cellar and Jexster, who consider police to be "felons."
(Nice catch.)
You stated, "Collectively, we become what he [Mcveigh] is, the minute he is put to death--that is to say, monsters of hate and beyond that, a mob of vengeance."
There is no need to slyly distort such an idiocy. If you don't like having your sophmoric truisms punctured, stick to wacky pictures.
"It doesn't deter."
McVeigh will be deterred.
"It doesn't provide "closure" (barf!)"
How could you possibly know? Did you learn this at a Free Mumia concert?
"It is not justified to protect society..."
Keep your church out of my electric chair.
"BUT society has a legitimate right to VENGEANCE and that is the only supportable argument for the DP...."
It's a good one. But they're all good.
Only doofus liberals could be surprised to learn, or think it interesting to note, that vengeance -- yea, vengeance -- is an important and legitimate part of criminal punishment.
You'd think the word "punishment" sort of gives the game away, but no. It's an astonishment to Wiz and Jexster that punishment is part of punishment.
pimpin' ain't easy
got my mind on the millenial
dick
Please read Money Dowd's new column (linked in Movies & Television) and explain to me what the fuck it's about.
Not having won a Pulitzer myself, it is wholly beyond my ken.
He's been watching too much Jack McCoy.
GERGEN: Al, a quick question. We need some sense, more better sense of where the President is. Is he under sedation now?
HAIG: He's not on the operating table.
GERGEN: He is on the operating table!
HAIG: So the ... the helm is right here. And that means right in this chair for now, constitutionally, until the Vice President gets here.
GERGEN: I understand that. I understand that.
HAIG: Yeah.
Yeah!
Sometimes, a deadline approaches when you have absolutlely nothing to say. Still the deadline marches, marches, marches.
And you are forced to peck out words on your computer. You stare at them, look back at the date, and hit "send", hoping that you have accidentally included some hidden layer of substance.
I think this was one of those days for Money.
Forgiving readers will muse, "I think I missed it today, but she has a Pulitzer, so it must be my fault."
You guys...if she were talking about Dungeons and Dragons and the aspects of insuffiency felt by players in contrast to their sex lives, you'd have been all over it.
Actually that was the original title of the song from "The Thomas Crown Affair." The Bergmans were going through a bad patch at the time. Michel thought "Petty Squirrel Cage of Your Mind" was interesting at first, but director Norman Jewison nixed it in the end.
No, it means Andrew Sullivan is unqualified to serve as a police officer.
You'd be peachy-keen for parking violations, Ace.
Are you saying that if I reviewed a different lame movie and compared it to an older, more famous movie, and showed how there were some similarities and some differences, I could get a column in the NYT?
Is there something actually written into the laws that states "The People shall have vengeance"?
Just curious.
This has given me the biggest laugh of the day, so far!
If you guys are going to do that, please get a room. I wouldn't want children to see that.
Cellar,
As usual, you avoid a difficult question by flippantly changing the subject.
You have claimed that white cops are gunning for black suspects. That turns out to be not quite true -- black cops shoot black suspects at more than double the rate that black cops do.
Please explain.
You could...and you could no doubt do just as good a job as Maureen. But you'd have to be ready for jealous pretenders to rip you to shreds twice a week...
I can live with that.
So you promise that getting ripped to shreds will drop to twice a week?
"She was providng a contrast in the fictional women of today and the fictional women of yesterday by means of popular fiction of the day... "
Most women call this "yakking about their 'stories' or soap operas."
Money Dowd calls it a Pulitzer-Prize winning column.
I think I will discuss the totalitarian, command-economy Klingons in contrast to the social-darwinist free-market Ferengi. I will speculate what this says about the respective zeitgeists of 1969 (original series) and 1990 (next generation series).
And then I will collect my Pulitzer.
Obviously, black officers have to work twice as hard as white officers. It is the discrimination which forces the kill twice as many blacks as white officers. The police are obviously controlled by the White Power Structure and they judge the worth of officers by the number of blacks they kill. Since blacks are naturally at a disadvantage they must compensate to be rewarded equally with whites.
The issue of black police officers is a decidedl thony one. In L.A. theyalways put them out front whenever there's"racial strife." But the blakc police chiefs we've had have done NOTHING to stop white police racism.
Conservabots like you LOVE to flash black police in the face of "the liberals" in that great spirit of "SEE? SEE? THEY'RE JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE!!!!! SO I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANY TALK ABOUT RACISM!"
Yeah, right.
I call it an institutionalized example of "the Stockholm Syndrome."
In future columns I will discuss Captain Kirk vs. TJ Hooker (Kirk, obviously, duhhhh; but Why?, that is the Pulizer-winning question I will endeavor to answer) or, perhaps, The Fall Guy vs. Simon & Simon.
Pulitzer me.
JJ,
Ha, ha. Blacks have to kill twice as many suspects to get half the recognition.
Conservabots like you LOVE to flash black police in the face of "the liberals" in that great spirit of SEE? SEE? THEY'RE JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE!!!!!
Laugh. You say this as if it's an illegitimate tactic, rather than a fact which utterly demolishes your supposition.
Your supposition is that whites are killing far too many black suspects, most likely because they hate blacks. When a fact surfaces to show that your entire premise is wrong (black cops kill more than twice as many black suspects as white cops), you begin spraying capital letters and exclamation points as if it were terribly rude of me to explain the true facts to you.
Sorry I was so inconsiderate.
Of course. From Cellar we know that the White Power Structure controls every aspect of our lives, and the only thing that matters to them is the elimination of the black race. Black police officers are obviously sellouts to their race who are trying to buy their way into a position in white society by doing the WPS's dirty work for them. I mean, it is so obvious. How could you have missed it?
Nonsense. Only purile chatter about popular television shows and flavor-of-the-week movies can win you the coveted Pulitzer. Everybody knows that.
When my mom talks about her "shows," she's just gabbing. When Money Dowd does it, she's workin' on a Penn award.
PEN award, I guess. Who knows? I've never won one.
And yet I've gabbed about my "stories" a whole bunch of times.
Cellar,
BTW, what's the "right number" of suspects to be killed per year? Surely it can't be zero; we know it is sometimes necessary.
You don't have a "right number" in mind; you're just certain that whatever the actual number is, it's too high. Because of racism. And self-hating blacks.
So glad you've finally seen the light, J.J.
Survivor is a tv show. Money Dowd has written about it more than a dozen times.
Try it. Compare Survivor to the dwindling Democratic field for 2004 ("Grey Davis, you have been voted out of the Outback"). Perhaps you too can win a Pulitzer.
Perhaps we all can.
Perhaps Money Dowd is an inspiration to us all. Like The Clash and The Ramones who proved you could be rock stars without having much in the way of musical talent, Money Dowd proves, on a biweekly basis, that you can be a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist without having anything interesting to say.
Ever.
You're right; it's easy...
Should police departments refuse to hire more black officers, or should they hire more of them, the better to eliminate the black population and therefore all crime?
Sigh. No, Judith. It goes like this:
"Grey Davis, you ARE TheWeakestLinkGoodbye!"
You have to link the currently top-rated television phenomenon to politics, silly.
According to YOUR theory, we should not hire any black officers, because they're perpetrating racist genocide on the black population.
What do I think should be done?
Nothing, really. One day you're going to get it through your head that some asshole who draws down on a cop deserves to be shot, whether he's black or white.
And one day you might figure it out that sometimes mistakes --tragic mistakes, to be sure; but then most mistakes involving firearms are tragic-- sometimes happen. And that that's not "racism," that's simple human fallibility.
Last time I checked, our streets were not patrolled by RoboCop or by the ED-209 cyborg.
Last time I checked, our streets were not patrolled by RoboCop or by the ED-209 cyborg.**
** I have just nominated this post to the Pulitzer committee.
You haven'tanswered my question, Ace. Should the black population be eliminated?
After all, aren't we the major cause of crime?
Not just ordinary cops, Cellar. *Black* cops. They're 2.5 times as good at it.
"You haven'tanswered my question, Ace. Should the black population be eliminated?"
I didn't answer it because it was an absurd rhetorical question, or at least I assumed so.
But since you apparently need an answer, here it is: No, the black population should not be eliminated.
If the black population *should* be eliminated, I would think we could do it faster than 15 blacks over 5 years in Cinncinati.
"After all, aren't we the major cause of crime?"
Well, yes, blacks are responsible for a very disproportionate share of street crime/violent crime.
"There is no need to slyly distort such an idiocy. If you don't like having your sophmoric truisms punctured, stick to wacky pictures."
Well Francis, in your case, it's understandable how an imbecile would think that a truism (:an obvious truth) is idiocy.
Still having trouble with your touchy/feely side, I see.
16007. JudithAtHome - 4/18/01 2:50:30 PM
"The hue and cry to save McVeighs hide now that the end is near mystifies me...how about the little kids he killed? I'll bet they would've liked an option."
Christ Judith, I'm not advocating "saving McViegh's hide," I'm warning that we are giving him what he wants and letting him off from ever discovering the truth about himself -- a more just desert. Nor would we be acting out of vengeance, but rather a sense of justice.
Those kids who died are at peace now and so will McVeigh be-- shortly -- and I'll bet that is what he longs for most at this point -- that is, to repress his guilt and hold on until his injection relieves him of the burden and distress of his act.
This is why I hate words; I point to the moon and all eyes fixate on my finger.
Rather silly.
You can't have a discussion with Cellar without him demanding to know if you support genocide.
Gee, I think the facts show that 1) black copss shoot and kill more black suspects than white officers do; and that 2) cop shootings have been declining for the past ten years, and in most cities are at their lowest modern historical levels (White Fascist Rudy's Thug-Cops kill half as many suspects as Good Black Compassionate Dinkins cops did).
Cellar's response?
DO YOU SUPPORT THE EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE RACE!?!?!?! DO YOU DENY THE HOLOCAUST!?!?!!!?? WHY DON'T YOU JUST KILL *ME*!??!??!?!?!?
Well then the black poluation should be eliminated. We cause all the crime, don't we?
"You can't have a discussion with Cellar without him demanding to know if you support genocide."
Because that's the only issue.
"DO YOU SUPPORT THE EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE RACE!?!?!?! DO YOU DENY THE HOLOCAUST!?!?!!!?? WHY DON'T YOU JUST KILL *ME*!??!??!?!?!?"
Oh,take your meds.
Cellar, if I wanted the black population eliminated, I would support Dinkins' return to power (double the number of brothers killed as Rudy could manage) and an all-black police force (2.5 times as many brothers killed as whites could manage).
Put both together, and we'd have a whopping FIVE TIMES AS MANY BROTHERS DEAD!!!!! Why, that's a 400% improvement!!!!
Cellar,
Why is it okay that Dinkins' cops killed twice as many brothers per year than Rudy's cops killed?
When a black Mayor's cops kill, is that killing done with more "understanding"? More "diversity"? What, precisely?
Why is it you have no problem being gunned down by "Double-Trouble" Dinkins or a black cop?
And what of Dorismund... killed by a hispanic cop, a Puerto Rican.
I guess the damn PR's hate blacks, too.
Or those Philadelphia cops who beat up that poor, innocent black man who had merely shot and hit a cop and run another cop down with a car... the cops kicking him were all black.
We're all in on it together against you, Cellar. The Whites, the Browns, the Blacks -- we're all in it together to keep you down.
Because you represent a threat. Of some sort.
Perhaps you might want to define it?
(can't WAIT for this self-serving aria!)
I'm waiting.
"Why is it YOU have no problem with Clarence Thomas, J. C. Watts or Armstrong Williams?"
None of them shot me.
But then, David "Double-Trouble" Dinkins managed to have the highest levels of black-on-black murder AND, simultaneously, the highest level of cops killing blacks.
I just don't understand why getting killed by a black Mayor is apparently okely-dokely with you.
It's not the shooting and killing you mind... so long as a black is doing it. Then, it's okay. It's somehow better. Done with more "understanding." Nothing to worry about.
But if a white guy shoots and kills you-- why, that you take personally.
Robertson sought to quiet the uproar yesterday by issuing a clarification declaring that he is "unalterably opposed to the policy which would result in forced abortions or sex selection." But many of his allies remained furious and stunned by his remarks.
Pat for Prez!
Run Pat Run!
Who said it was? You, of course, not me.
And I DO take it personally. Wonder why all the cops that have attacked me over the years have been white.
Gee them niggas is lazy!
"Obviously I repesent a threat of some sort.
Perhaps you might want to define it?
(can't WAIT for this self-serving aria!)"
Ummmm... are you drinking this early in the morning? You DON'T represent a threat, Cellar. That's the point.
But apparently you think that you're so "dangerous" to me that I get together with my black, brown, and white cop friends to "keep you down."
"You have yet to explain why blacks shouldn't be eliminated from the population. "
Ummmm... okay.
"Gee them niggas is lazy! "
Like I said: They have to shoot twice the number of black perps to get *half* the credit as whites.
I mean, black cops are killing 2.5 times as many black perps, and STILL people like you are disrespecting them! Claiming that white cops do all the shooting!
What's a brother got to do to get some credit?!
He threatens to appeal to my inner homo.
I had a dream with Cellar in it just other night. We were only having an intellectual conversation and all. I asked him if he considered himself a writer or a critic, and he said critic.
But we all know what it really means.
Pretty soon I'll be posting under some Francis-like name.
Oh, god. Why must you constantly ratchet up a minor discussion to talk of murder and such?
What's the fucking point, Cellar?
Gee Francis, maybe you should have run there for the spelling and meaning of sophomoric: conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature.
And gee, Cellar, once we get rid of all the cops, who'll be there to arrest Matthew Sheppard's murderers?
Oh wait-- we'll keep cops for THAT. Some murderers deserve to be arrested.
Collectively, you become what I am, the minute you correct my spelling--that is to say, a monster of hate and beyond that, a one man mob of vengeance.
A more VICIOUS desert, you're suggesting-- something WORSE than death, right?
You guys are funny. First you claim vengeance has no place in criminal justice, and in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE, you say something idiotically contradictory like "we should let them rot in jail; that's an even worse PUNISHMENT." Emphasis on "punishment" (syn: retribution).
"Nor would we be acting out of vengeance, but rather a sense of justice."
And these words, as used by you, are different how, precisely?
What's the fucking point, Cellar?"
Because that's the world I live in, about which you know precious little. Or rather, about which you deign to recognize precious little.
Quit flirting, Indy. My heart belongs to Niner.
FU,
Ha, ha. You became a "mob of vengenace" when you stole my millenial.
In that both Shepard and his killers were white, no real crime was involved. Isn't that right, Ace?
Oh, right-- the world you live in. The world of book-contracts, magazine pieces, and celebrity interviews.
"Hell," in other words.
"In that both Shepard and his killers were white, no real crime was involved. Isn't that right, Ace?"
Yes, Cellar, that's right. White people can't commit crimes.
I'm thinking of writing a book called "The Secret History of Los Angeles." It'll concern my experiences during the Rodney King case, the riots, and the O.J. trial.
i'm not surprised what with all that forced titty talk in ace's horrible thread
and, btw, it seems as if CD has 'appealed' to Ace's exterior homo as well!
You call it a "celebrity-filled ritzy charity ball."
Cellar calls it "Perdition."
Exactly. Look at Charles Keating for instance. His "technical infractions" can't compare to some "homie" robbing a liquor store, can they?
When Cellar's at a comped celebrity-press junket, he's been known to exclaim "One hundred and twenty eight minutes of oppression. And counting" when they run out of mineral water.
"What you call Sardi's, he calls 'home.'"
-- Cellar's superior officer, Richard Crenna
That means leaving the house and going into Beverly Hills without arousing the attention of the "authorities."
Wish me luck!
Cellar can really relate to the poor gang-bangers on the street.
Like Cellar, those poor gang-bangers know full well the humiliation of having an eight-minute E! interview edited back to a mere 4:22.
Every minute an eternal hell.
Here's a tip. Don't walk there.
"That means leaving the house and going into Beverly Hills"
Like I said: A no man's land.
The man is a genuine American hero.
Cellar,
How the hell can you put up with this torturous existence? I'm getting weepy just thinking about your "Trail of Tears" to a famous director's house in Beverly Hills.
How, sir, do you endure?
anyone?
More a "Citizen of the World," actually.
beaten by the cops today that is
who the hell knows about tomorrow?
Rates jump in 2 weeks since PG&E bankruptcy
"10 bucks says CD isn't beaten by the cops "
I dunno. There is, of course, his personality.
But then, you have to cut him some slack. Who here has walked in Cellar's shoes?
He's had a very hard life. An unending PURGATORY of telephone interviews, chats with "Warren" and visits to directors' houses in Beverly Hills.
Or Beverly HELLS, as it were.
My god. He's practically the Dalai Lama himself.
One walks barefoot across entire continents to liberate his enslaved country. The other one endures being made to wait on line to get into Sky Bar.
Who can tell them apart? They're virtually twins.
Twins of Strength.
The company reported first-quarter earnings of $274 million, a 100 percent increase over its earnings of $134 million in same period last year, before California's energy crisis began to spiral out of control.
Reliant's earnings show that California's continuing energy crisis will do well for the bottom line of power companies that now have control of California's energy market....the independent companies have bought up enough plants, and held them in few enough hands, to essentially hold California's electricity ransom for the highest price. SF Chron
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comedy Central (Pacific) Wed Apr 18 10:30 PM
Series/Comedy, 30 Mins.
"Eenie, Meenie, Miney, Murder", Episode #103.
A psychic informs George that someone wants to kill him.
Unless you enjoy having a gun put to your temple.
I'm not going to a house, I'm going to a hotel.
Of course you being white and all --you're the REAL martyr.
God what a weight you must have to bear!
It's a veritable What Man's Burden!
Just think of all those Negroes (not the good ones like Clarence or Puffy or Patrick Ewing -- the real evil ones) waiting in the bushes to gun them down and rape their women!
JJ,
It's like that Seinfeld episode when Tim Watley converts to Judaism:
Watley: It's our sense of humor that's preserved us through three thousand years of suffering.
Seinfeld: FIVE thousand.
Watley: Even better!
"When you consider all the horrible prejudice white people have to put up with day in and day out it's just something awful! "
Mmm-hm. Right now I'm perusing a contract that states I'm supposed to sign over derivative rights to my work.
Derivative rights! My god! The sheer OPPRESSION of it all!!!
Now I understand the Hell that is Cellar's life.
I stand.
Those kids who died are at peace now and so will McVeigh be--shortly -- and I'll bet that is what he longs for most at this point -- that is, to repress his guilt and hold on until his injection relieves him of the burden and distress of his act.
I'm not looking at your finger pointing to the moon but rather, at what I consider to be the fallacy of your belief that McVeigh "feels" the burden and distress of his guilt...trust me, he doesn't. And if I believed in it, I would be pleased to think he was going straight to a firey hell when he dies.
Considering you willingness to lie to justify your opinion, how can we possibly accept this as fact?
You forgot that I'm gay too,J.J.
How could I possibly forget when you mention it at least every third post.
Of course you being white and all -- you're the REAL martyr
You just can't keep from lying, can you? I am not white.
Collectively, you become what I am, the minute you call me Smallman --that is to say, a monster of hate and beyond that, a one very small man of vengeance.
In addition, he acts out of vengeance rather than a sense of true justice.
________
Judith - I didn’t say McVeigh feels any guilt or remorse now, but fifty more years of wallowing in a small solitary cell might just do the trick.
And it’s not a "belief," it’s more of a hypothesis about human nature and the follies of youth — like believing in hell.
As if you were ever going accept anything I've ever said.
And I don't know what "lie" you're referring to.
Not that it matters. You don't respect a single word I say and vice versa.
I just think it’s a bigger tragedy for a man to be put to death before he realizes the utter depravity of his actions.
"Judith - I didn’t say McVeigh feels any guilt or remorse now, but fifty more years of wallowing in a small solitary cell might just do the trick. "
I thought the concept of "vengeance" has no place in criminal punishment.
And yet, over and over again, you suggest that a psychic, emotional torture is the best response... because it's worse than death.
If it's worse than death, then why don't do the "humane thing" and execute the poor fucker?
"I just think it’s a bigger tragedy for a man to be put to death before he realizes the utter depravity of his actions."
Ohhhhhh... so we have to do him the favor of allowing him to confront his inner demons and acheive "closure."
Gotcha.
Incarceraton as therapy.
I realize there are so many it is hard to be sure. Just assume I am talking about all of them. Pick a post, there are plenty to choose from.
You don't respect a single word I say
It is hard to take you seriously when you base a post on the claim that I am white. If you would start posting honestly for a change, perhaps I could respect what you say. There are many people here I respect even though we disagree about a great many things. The difference between them and you is that they are able to be honest with themselves and with others.
How horrible it must have been for him."
Gacy denied complicity in his crimes until the moment of his death.
When asked how the bodies of forty murdered young boys got buried in his basement crawlspace and backyard, he said that someone else buried them there.
Someone.
Buried.
FORTY.
Bodies.
In his basement crawlspace.
Over a period of fifteen years.
But, you know, ten or so more years of cushy prison life (painting clowns and selling his works on ebay) would have brought him to a tearful reconciliation with his deeds.
I wonder... would Wiz support killing a serial killer AFTER he has his come-to-Jesus session?
After all, he'd have reached closure. No more tragedy in killing him then.
Mmmmmmm... everytime Charlie Manson comes up for his parole hearings, I'm just sure he's gonna start crying and admit he done wrong.
Sure, Sharon Tate had her baby carved out of her womb, and Jay Sebring was stabbed a kabillion times, but isn't this constant barrage on Manson's conscience overkill?
Plus, as Charlie says, we MADE him. And, on top of that, he wasn't there and he didn't do anything.
I must say that if we are to kill McVeigh, I think media silence would be more respectful than this drive to get the last McVeigh interview, creating an everlasting supply of wacko fodder.
No, Francis. They're all innocent. Except for the one wise old black lifer who's so treacly-sweet you just KNOW his murder was a crime of passion and something he'd never, never, ever do again.
Let the loved ones of the victims do what they think ought to be done, and the way they want to do it.
If it were my son or daughter...
Wiz also believes that men on death row develop psychic superpowers.
That's why he wants to let them out-- he wants them to use their superpowers to fight crime.
U.S. :" Good morning."
China: "We'll see."
U.S. : " How are you doing?"
China :" we'll see."
U.S. : " WHEN are you going to release our plane?"
China: "WHEN are you going to stop flying more recon planes?"
U.S.: "Tell your pilots stop hot-dogging in the air."
China:"WHEN are going to stop flying?"
U.S.:"Let's develop some rules of engagement."
China: "WHEN are you going to stop flying?"
U.S.: " It's TIME to return our EP-3E!!!"
China : " Ask me "Good morning" again."
Wiz,
How about naming your superheroic, crime-fighting murderers the X Convicts?
Has a ring, don't you think?
I'm thinking Charlie Manson can shoot heat-rays out of the swastika he carved in his forehead.
And it’s not a "belief," it’s more of a hypothesis about human nature and the follies of youth — like believing in hell.
I am not ridiculing or making light of your position; I just have far less faith in human nature than do you...I feel McVeigh is a new breed of human, either too stubbornly evil or too stupidly evil to realize any universal truth and therefore totally irredeemable. He is like Manson, Speck, Gacy, Ramiriz, and Bundy...hopelessly beyond whatever is normal.
"I feel McVeigh is a new breed of human, either too stubbornly evil or too stupidly evil to realize any universal truth and therefore totally irredeemable. He is like Manson, Speck, Gacy, Ramiriz, and Bundy...hopelessly beyond whatever is normal."
Not new. There is nothing new.
There have always been serial killers. Some people theorize that serial killers gave rise to the werewolf myth.
"I'm not talking about simple serial killers...these guys are different in a new way."
Huh? No frickin' way.
Remorseless? Lacking even the most minimal dollop of normal human empathy? Taking pleasure from the deaths of others?
Been there, done that. There is nothing new.
But then, that's the difference between a liberal and conservative. You guys think that human beings have actually "evolved" over the course of the last 15,000 years.
It's not even a "collision". It was a toughy contact during the dangerous cat-and-mouse games.
It's still CONCEIVABLE that the accidental "touch" ("contact") was caused by the hot-dogging TUMPS of the faster Chinese F-8 AND the sudden turn of the pissed and slower EP-3E which provided an angle for the "contact" to occur.
A fatal combination which did not happen twice before the third and final one in that eventful mission flight ....
Nonsense. Ace is right. Serial killers have been the same for centuries.
Tell that to Attila....Pol Pot... the guy, (can't remember the name), who tried to take down the Trade Center...or the people who decided on flying Pan AM instead of Brittish Airways...
(Nice that he was gay and all, but a psycho nonetheless.)
Bush to DNC : " Ask me about the LEAD in paints."
(Nice that he was gay and all, but a psycho nonetheless.)"
Oh, please. You can't claim a conqueror/general is the same as a serial killer. Warfare was considered SOP back then. Still is.
Vlad the Impaler, maybe. But then -- those fucking Turks pissed him off.
Suggested?
As far as adressing the the Peanut-brain Gallery of grotesqueries and perverse insults, I’ll leave it to those who suffer fools more gladly than I.
Auguri
"this kid."
This poor, poor kid.
Courage, Timmy, courage.
And forgive us all, as we are about to become you.
U.S. : " Well?"
China: " We'll see."
U.S. : " We love to discuss the WTO issue,but...."
China : " When are you going to stop the flying?"
U.S.: " Furthermore,we would like to re-visit the MFN and PNTR matters. We all know how IMPORTANT it is......"
China : "WHEN you stop the recon flights,we will talk."
U.S. : " More importantly, it would be a GREAT opportunity for you to host the Olympic game in..."
China: " When are you going to stop the recon flying?"
U.S. : " We REALLY don't want to sell THOSE weapons to Taiwan unless we have to,you know."
China : " Was that why you were flying the recons so frequently and so closely in the FIRST place?"
U.S. : " Hmmm.... About our EP-3E's timely release...."
China : " More tea?"
U.S. : " We hate to threaten you on anything,but...."
China : " You tea is getting cold. Let's drink."
Jesus. Reading Wiz's insipid words makes me pine for his idiotic picture-cartoons.
Hmmmm... your parents? Your family? Your boss? Your wife/husband/housemate/life partner?
I'm sure you know quite a few people who suffer fools quite a bit. I would imagine your constellation of acquaintances is made up of such people almost exclusively.
(GASP!!!) You don't mean to say that you're. ..beige J.J., do you?
A thousand pardons.
Well I'm back from Beverly Hills in one piece, but it was tough and go, let me tell you! When I crossed Doheny the pigs were all over me. But Tsui Hark and his posse (Chow Yun-Fat and Johnny Yune) swung in and rescued me before it got REALLY ugly.
Tsui says the Chinese government hasn't inteferred with Hong Kong filmmaking in any way.There was a lot of speculation that theywouldin all sorts of ways, but "It was just like Y2K -- a lot of paranoia and nothing happened."
Oh course they could have planted a chip in his brain and all. . .
Bush Rolls Dice to Teach Students About Math Skills
Finally, what does this have to do with anything? Facts are facts, regardless of the race of the observer. Similarly, bullshit doesn't become fact because of the skin color of the observer.
That's My Bush!
Agree with your last sentence, but when CD draws conclusions about JJ based upon his color, the inference is probably bullshit in any case, but obviously so if his premise is wrong.
What more need there be? I am Semitic. I am not caucasian. I am not white. I am not beige. My skin is brown. A point that has been made clear to me my entire life.
Finally, what does this have to do with anything?
Since Cellar has one parent who is half-black, he feels he is entitled to speak for the "black experience." He tried to dismiss my argument by claiming I am white and I have never been a victim of discrimination. I was correcting his premise.
Facts are facts, regardless of the race of the observer. Similarly, bullshit doesn't become fact because of the skin color of the observer.
Tell that to Cellar. He seems to think that since he a small amount of black blood in his veins, his overheated hyperbole is the last word on the subject.
Riots. Heh, heh. Also known as "Rebellions" to idiots like Wiz.
I'll never forget the quote from one "Rebel" during the Rodney King Rebellion. As this female "Freedom Fighter" and her fellow "Freedom Force Strike Team" were looting an electronics store, she turned to a nearby camera and gleefully yelled, "Free stuff!"
What a fucking hero.
The theft of all those televisions and radios truly was a courageous act of conscience.
The guy who got the 27 inch TV? A frigging Gandhi.
"That said, there is something both weird and very wrong about continuing to respond to the outrages of racism and police brutality by throwing bottles, smashing windows, overturning cars, looting stores, burning down buildings, shooting at police officers and dragging innocent white motorists from their vehicles and attempting to beat and stomp them to death...
"But after so many tragic eruptions over so many decades, it's time for everyone to recognize the need for a smarter, more effective response to these evils than a riot."
This, to a liberal, is a daring, counterintuive notion.
"People shouldn't riot, loot liquor stores, and commit hate-crimes against white people" is some sort of revelation to the New York Times editorial page. I'm sure the writer is getting patted on the back right now, as his fellow liberals coo: "It was a courageous thing to say. You'll get heat for it, but someone had to say it."
Wiz,
Tell me, what's the NYT editorial position on gang-rapes?
The Central Park Wilding, for example. Have they come around to the daring conclusion that, while young black males might feel a lot of "rage," they really oughtn't go around raping random strangers?
Or perhaps they're not willing to go that far yet?
Ah, well. Everything in time.
It only took the NYT forty-five years to decide that perhaps Stalin wasn't the sort of guy they should be writing enthusiastic, hagiographic puff-pieces about. And it only took them fifty years to figure out that Alger Hiss was, in fact, guilty.
"Pop those boils, Ace and let your miserable frustration and hatred drain."
Frustration? Hatred? I'm not the guy writing love-sonnets to looters, rioters, carjackers, and thrill-killers.
How so?
"Since Cellar has one parent who is half-black, he feels he is entitled to speak for the "black experience." ".
Not atall. I speak only of my own experiences.
I do, however, speak for the ENTIRE gay experience.
"He tried to dismiss my argument by claiming I am white and I have never been a victim of discrimination. I was correcting his premise."
Only up to a certain point, Clarence.
I anxiously await more detailed information about your victim status.
Ace's Two-Point Plan for Rioters:
Bullets First.
"Understanding" later.
Hell, he can't even come up with a paln to rid the world of pernicious non-whites like J.J. and me.
"Understanding" later.
Aha, the Aceman Speaketh!
So first you shoot us then the re-education camps for the corpses. Brilliant!
No liberal really wants to come right out and say it, but they really do think that blacks (and some Hispanics) have a right to violate the law, burn down buildings, loot stores, and beat and stomp people to death.
When they get "angry," at least.
Such behavior does not call for moral outrage and aggressive police action. Such behavior simply calls for more "understanding," more racial town halls, and more Jesse Jackson CNN shows.
Cellar,
Were I and forty of my friends to come into your neighborhood and begin looting -- and perhaps smash you over the head with a concrete brick -- I think your infinite well of "understanding" would quickly dry up.
If you riot, yes.
If the Klan rioted in your neighborhood, Cellar, would you propose we "seek to understand them and find common ground" or that we begin shooting at them until they dispersed and ceased rioting?
You guys have this weird notion that people are allowed to commit acts of mayhem, terror, and murder if their reasons are good (in your opinion).
i've had my eye on a great futon but don't have the scratch!
Rubberducky,
If you're "angry," then take it.
If you like, I will "repress" you to make you "angry" which will then give you the right to steal it.
Ace, you're incapable of having ONE friend!
"Ace, you're incapable of having ONE friend!"
Not true. Francis Urquhart would love to be my friend. He sends me "Thinking of You" cards every other week.
want me to, um, 'liberate' something for you since you aren't repressed?
are they original ones or does he just scratch CD's name off and send to you?
RD,
Actually, yes. I'd like a king sized futon with a two-panel folding frame (the "couch type" frame).
The frame can be stained dark or light; I don't care which, so long as it's decent wood.
Now, go strike a blow for Justice. For both of us.
i'm feeling extra angry today - might get the matching chair!
"are they original ones or does he just scratch CD's name off and send to you?"
A friend of mine sent me a birthday card once.
The card was originally from his grandparents, to him. The card showed a ten year old kid with a baseball bat and uniform (you know, a silly kid-card).
He scratched out the "To Gary" part his Grandparents had written, and put in a "To Ace." He scratched out the "From Nana and Grandpa" and wrote "Your buddy, Gary."
It was the funniest fucking card I've ever received.
I can't imagine you coming in here anytime soon.
RD,
See if you can also inflict some additional damage on the Corrupt White Police State by picking me up a comforter. I prefer plaids, either Stewart or Black Watch.
funny card story -i may do just that for a friend of mine ... hmmm
Cellar and Wiz,
If a small group of hoods raids a liquor store, can they claim it's a "Mini Riot" in order to beat the rap?
If cops see such a crime in progress, should they say, "Wait a minute. Let's hold our fire. They might be rioting, and we don't want to disturb them" ?
Be sure to watch A Clockwork Orange for inspiration. How do you look in a bowler?
RD,
make sure you put no effort into it. That's what makes it funny.
Fabulous, of course.
was there any doubt?
Uh-oh. The gays are getting "angry." Better chain up the local Bed, Bath & Beyond.
What do we want?
Affordable and easy-to-install track-lighting!
When do we want it?
Before next week's tea-party!
a reasonable mistake, my sweet. just never make it again, heh.
Ace:
somewhat like Ronski, i'm much more interested in the local software / video game store after i get my futon and lovely matching lounge chair.
besides, gay men don't have 'tea-parties'. most gays i know could drink you under the table.
Perhaps Ace meant tea dance, instead.
More On Bush "Get Tough With Iraq"
I probably meant tea dance.
I probably didn't mean "track Lighting" either, but it was all I could think of.
And this, from the Austrians at Mises.org, on Greenspan.
"much more interested in the local software / video game "
You don't have Cliver Barker's Undying, do you?
We're into good Crafts Movement stuff, right now. 
that and Conker's Bad Fur Day on the N64 has been eating up my time. i generally am not a PC game fan for many reasons.
um, sorry, Jay for the chit-chat.
Bush's habit of cutting the budgets of organizations he's used for photo ops is making him an easy target for Democrats.
Don't Kill Me Mister Gaurd Bear ...
Wow, Jexster. A ten-day old essay from Salon. You're such the reporter.
(Where's my barf bag?)
Wizard,
Hmmmmmm... what do you imagine the ratio is between cop-on-black beatings and shootings and black-criminal-on-black-citizen beatings and shootings?
"And here I thought you were just an idiot" - White House Maid "That's My Bush!"
Their governing styles are even more alike: they both delegate. That has translated into a popular media image of W and the Gipper as dumb and out-to-lunch. Reagan’s napping and Bush’s early to bed routine don’t help matters. Early reports that Bush was working out mid-morning when a man with a gun was shot outside the White House only made the president seem more like a slacker.
Question for the board: Has there been a substantial change in what's emanating from the White House since Bush took over? If so, is it a change of style, substance, or both?
Alternatively, we can discuss how Sean Connery's James Bond reflected 60s men, Pierce Brosnan reflected 90s men, and who will be James Bond for the third millennium: Eminem or Ricky Martin? 
Yes, obviously. See Michael Kelly's most recent column, contrasting Bush's decision not to hog the spotlight at Widbley Island with Clinton's "feeling the pain" of every sparrow that fell from the sky.
"If so, is it a change of style, substance, or both?"
Both.
Bush's low-spin style is refreshing, but also problematic. He generally doesn't get out the spin until his opponents spin first.
What's the point? You know they're going to spin; why not beat them to the punch?
There was no need to suffer any damage from the arsenic decision. The decision was plainly reasonable and correct. But by refusing to make the case at the time of the decision, Bush inflicted unnecessary political damage on himself as the usual suspects took the usual potshots using the usual distortions and misinformation.
When Bush made his case, most in the Beltway thought, "Gee, that makes sense." But too late --the idiots had already gotten out their spin, unchallenged for three days. And now, of course, Bush seems to be backpedalling on the decision.
Had he just spun from the get-go, he could have avoided this.
There is "spin," which is bad.
Then there is "making your case, explaining yourself, getting the facts to the press, and justifying your reasoning," which is good.
It's hard to tell them apart sometimes. But you don't forgo the latter for fear of it being accused of doing the former.
After accounting for inflation, the increase proposed for education funding is 3.7 percent. After accounting for the increase in school-age population, the increase is 2.9 percent."
More On Bush's Education Budget Lies
What in God's name are you talking about you buffoon?
He's the President! His party controls both Houses of Congress...if he can't get his message across its not because of this opponents' superior "spin" abilities...
What an idiot!
i dunno. i tend to think some of that has to do with Bush's speech ... problems that sneak up and his desire to hide them as much as he can.
RD,
Don't be stupid. He can read a prepared speech as well as anyone. And you don't need to give a speech at a photo op. He could easily have just shook hands with the returning airmen and it would have been a front-page picture and good publicity.
Bush killed at the Gridiron dinner & the other media/reporter confab.
Those who sit at the gate murmur against me, *
and the drunkards make songs about me.
[Bush] can read a prepared speech as well as anyone. And you don't need to give a speech at a photo op. He could easily have just shook hands with the returning airmen and it would have been a front-page picture and good publicity.
well, i speaking wrt 'the spotlight' in general. when there is no prepared text for the man to read and stick to, hilarity ensues. you know it to be true, if you simply admit it.
i'm not saying the man's a idiot, but his enemy is named 'impromptu'
RD,
And, once again, you're still being an idiot. If he fears impromptu speaking, he can simply not take questions.
Further, as I said, he didn't need to speak at the homecoming at all in order to take a Clintonian victory lap. He could simply have greeted the men without a speech.
Ergo, there must have been another reason for his decision, and your supposition is idiotic.
I think Bush is reacting on the environment not just to counterspin, but because he knows that he can't concede the issue to the Democrats. Going back to his base from the election, he doesn't have urban support. In the areas of the country where he does have support, environment is a big issue.
Personally, it's the one that gives me the most qualms about voting Republican. Partly I'm just not sure which scientist is right about what, so fear tactics and spin work pretty well with me in this area. It's too important to screw up, so when you're not sure--and I'm not--I try to err on the side of caution.
As far as the "welcome home," I think Bush did the right thing.
Jake Tapper has a good article today in Salon on the stylistic difference. Kelly's piece was good, as was Andrew Sullivan's recent observation that the absence of a sickeningly cloying and desperate president, prepared to speak the last words to every child stricken with plantitis faceitis, is a good thing.
If he fears impromptu speaking, he can simply not take questions.
sure, that'd fly.
he wouldn't look like a complete coward there - nosiree
REPORTER: "Mr Bush, can we ask you a question about your new tax plan?"
BUSH: "Um. Nope. Here's a text copy of my speech though."
brilliant.
He could simply have greeted the men without a speech.
what part of when there is no prepared text for the man to read and stick to, hilarity ensues. didn't you grasp? i'm speaking specifically to non-prepared remarks.
RD,
Which part of "You don't have to speak at a photo op" do you not understand?
The media wanted to take pictures during Bush's tour of the Holocaust Museum. Bush refused.
Is it because he's worried he's not handsome?
well, maybe 'hilarity' is a bit of a stretch, but certainly when he leaves what is written down for him he makes very mistakes that many people find ... amusing.
True story: after the Democrats lost Congress in 1994, Clinton began to take advice from Dick Morris. But Clinton could not tell his staff that he was taking advice from Morris. So he gave Morris a fake name. And when Morris wrote stuff for the President, Clinton took it, and re-wrote it in longhand.
This, apparently, is the hands-on model that is so missed.
sure, that'd fly. "
Uhhhhh, it flies every day, and flew during the Clinton administration as well. You just give your speech and walk away from the podium.
There's also a no-question photo-op, which means, get this, you have an opportunity to take photos but you can't ask questions.
These are not recent inventions of the George "I'm so afraid of speaking in public I ran for the Presidency" Bush administration.
no, no
i'm sure it's because he didn't wanna 'hog the spotlight'
*smirk*
*smirk*"
Riiiiight. He was so afraid of "speaking in public" he passed up an opportunity to pose with heroes *without* speaking in public at all.
After all, there's always the chance he will suddenly strucken with Tourette's Syndrome and begin spitting profanities.
obviously, there is a disconnect here.
you implied that Bush could just magically wave his wand and not answer questions and none would be the wiser. that's isn't what Clinton did at all as he mugged for the camera every chance he got.
thus, your whole 'point' about not taking questions is foolish
RD,
You *have* seen Clinton refuse to take questions, right?
You *have* seen Clinton at a photo-op with no questions, right?
Why do you think that this is somehow impossible for GWB?
Why do you cling to the ridiculous assertion that if there are reporters about GWB MUST answer their questions, unlike any other Presidency in the country's history?
And if he could have avoided such questions if he chose to (which he could, as Clinton did for over a YEAR), why did he avoid the homecoming rally?
cute word
i don't remember this, but, pray tell, were there any, i dunno, conservatives frothing at the mouth of this?
"you implied that Bush could just magically wave his wand and not answer questions and none would be the wiser."
I didn't imply this. I don't know what the fuck you could possibly be talking about. Presidents say "No questions" all the fucking time, dude.
No one is "the wiser" about it because it's a perfectly routine, unremarkable event.
Would the reporters KNOW that the President wasn't taking questons? Yes.
Would they be "the wiser" about it? Well, sure. Just like they're told twenty times a week that they can attend a speech or photo op but that the President won't be taking questions at this time.
"that's isn't what Clinton did at all as he mugged for the camera every chance he got."
President Clinton did not have a press conference, and did not take questions after photo ops, for sixteen months, Rubber Ducky.
Bush is just being a good ole gracious boy all this time and i just missed it.
thanks for the correction.
Ummmmm... remember Monicagate? For sixteen months there were no press conferences, no questions (well, very few, and no questions permitted on the Monica situation), and no interviews, except occasionally with friendly media.
It was a fairly well-reported situation.
"but, pray tell, were there any, i dunno, conservatives frothing at the mouth of this?"
It was noted, of course. By conservatives as well as the liberal media.
But then, that was 16 months of Presidential silence.
No one commented upon Clinton's myriad "no question" photo ops before or after that. Because they happen every frigging day.
This is incorrect. Many people, well beyond the diehard mockers, don't think he is in control, able to speak off the cuff, and so on.
You really are starting to develop a bunker mentality.
"For sixteen months there were no press conferences, no questions (well, very few, and no questions permitted on the Monica situation), and no interviews, except occasionally with friendly media."
does NOT equal
"16 months of Presidential silence"
If you think the rest of the country finds him funny, that's cool. I think the rest of the country finds him ho-hum. I'm pretty sure it is the jexsters and the Maria Van den Heuvels and the Richard Cohens and Money Dowds who are reduced to hilarity.
RD,
If a President can go 16 months without a single press conference, and extremely limited opportunities for questions (remember Clinton only taking questions when meeting with foreign heads of state? This was designed to discourage Monica questions) then George W. Bush is permitted, I think, to say "no questions" after a homecoming speech.
RD,
I'm also sure the questions posed, had he taken them, would have been rough.
"How do you feel about having our boys back?"
"Would you say this represents a victory for America?"
"Aren't our brave airmen and airwomen terrific?"
"Is Colin Powell a good, likeable, handsome guy?"
I'm sure Bush might have had a gaffe and stated that he despises our military.
"Bush is just being a good ole gracious boy all this time and i just missed it. "
Given the choice between your ludicrous assertion that Bush is too scared to attend a good-publicity-bonanza for fear of a "verbal gaffe" (nevermind the fact that he is forced to answer questions, in much less friendly, and much less celebratory, situations every other day) and simple graciousness, I think graciousness is far more likely.
RD,
If Bush is so afraid of a verbal gaffe, was does he have ANY press conferences and answer ANY questions at all?
Given the fact that he DOES take questions, every other day (or more), how can you claim that it is fear of these very same questions which keeps him from attending a "Welcome Home, Brave Heroes" celebration, or from having photographers shoot pictures of him in a "compassionate" tour of the Holocaust Museum?
You don't have to speak to have a photographer take your picture, dummy. Ergo, I don't quite see how fear of photographers is responsible for Bush banning photographers from his Holocaust Memorial tour.
"Many people, well beyond the diehard mockers, don't think he is in control, able to speak off the cuff, and so on."
Cal forever defines herself as a middle-of-the-road moderate so, by definition, all of her views are shared by 75% of the country.
RD's thesis:
Bush WILL take questions on very contentious issues such as the tax cut.
On the other hand, Bush is "too afraid" to take softball questions* at a "Welcome Home American Heroes" celebration. So that's why he doesn't show up.
*Actually, only 75% would be softballs. The other 25% would be utterly avoidable by the TRUE statement that "It would be unwise to comment on sensitive, ongoing discussions with the Chinese at this time."
Not so. I was speaking of polls.
A much more reasonable theory, which denies crediting Bush with graciousness, as RD insists, would be that Bush did not intend in order to not piss off the Chinese.
Hell, the Chinese might have specifically demanded that Bush not shove his victory in their face.
A plausible theory. But that doesn't explain why he didn't allow photographers at the Holocause Memorial.
I am saying that the rest of the country has this perception, but they don't much care.
Bush is so terribly, terribly afraid of the public, it's no wonder he ran for the position of President, duh!
RD -
The media felt that they were fortunate if Clowntoon allowed a press question and answer session once a year.
Given that, why the bitching about Bush?
Because he's in the kitchen and should be able to take the heat...
Then you will be waiting a long time. Unlike you I don't dwell on it. It is not the driving force of my existence.
Most women, too.
I'll bite—who is Maria Van den Heuvel?
NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill said on Thursday the U.S. economy is in stable condition
George W. Bush is losing his working majority in Congress. The only surprise is that it took so long. As recently as a month ago, the new administration imagined that its tax package would just sail through on a tide of media torpor, Republican discipline, and bipartisan gesture.
No longer. As the details of the president's not very popular program seep into public consciousness, Republicans are starting to desert. So far the Senate has just one reliably faithless Democrat, the politically androgynous Zell Miller of Georgia [see "Zellout," by Joshua Micah Marshall, on page 14]. Other conservative Democrats who were expected to defect to the Republicans have voted with their own party leaders. Republican moderates, however, are crossing the aisle with impunity.
The Nation's Joke
And turns up his little brown nose at those of us who do!
Meanwhile, according to the Rev. Moon:
'The head of (the male) love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake,' he said. 'And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole.'
GACK!
Interesting that DiLorenzo should quote McPherson so much. In a recent piece in the New York Review of Books, McPherson reviews (positively) books that speak to the centrality of slavery and racial separation used in the arguments and justifications for secession by Confederate spokesmen before the Civil War broke out. He also notes that before the war, the champions of states' rights were the Northern states that fought and lost in the South-dominated courts for the primacy of state jurisdiction over Federal jurisdiction in the enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Law. According to McPherson, the states' rights argument didn't achieve primacy until after the South fought and lost the Civil War.
Jefferson Davis and others claimed defending slavery was paramount. But I imagine that for most Southerners who served in the Confederate Army it was not.
Go fish.
And turns up his little brown nose at those of us who do!
Just because I know how to play the game, it doesn't mean I would lower myself to do so.
Meanwhile, according to the Rev. Moon:
'The head of (the male) love organ is shaped exactly like a poisonous rattlesnake,' he said. 'And just like a rattlesnake, it's always looking for a hole.'
And? What's your point?
You know how it is with us homos: "Bored with the dark ones. Famished for the blonds."
(Major "Gay Jeopardy" points to the first Motee who can guess where that quote fomsfrom!)
I would too in your position.
You know how it is with us homos
Can't say that I do. I don't keep up on gay fads and stereotypes.
My only guess on Gay Jeopardy would be La Cage and that is a stab in the dark.
Our national shame continues. The Chinese make Bush look like the proverbial Paper Tiger as our Brave Plane sits on an Hainan Island run way.
If a German press report is accurate, America's so-called hard-nosed approach to China in the EP-3 spy plane incident may have been a lot softer than it appeared. On a key trade issue, the U.S. reportedly caved to China's demands.
U.S. backing of China's admission into the World Trade Organization (WTO), thought to be a possible bargaining chip in the negotiations concerning the release of the hostage American air crew and its plane, was already a done deal when the spy plane flap arose.
According to Germany's Handelsblatt newspaper, both countries agreed to keep their agreement secret for now as a result of the EP-3 spy plane incident.
The German newspaper reported that the main issue in the WTO negotiations was the amount of agricultural government subsidies China would be allowed to pay. The U.S. agreed to allow China to pay subsidies between 7 percent and 8 percent and not the 10 percent China wanted as a result of its alleged status as a developing country. Had the U.S. insisted on recognizing China as an industrialized nation - which it obviously is - it would have been limited to 5 percent agricultural subsidies.
Oh the shame!
Or American Literature either. It's from "Suddenly Last Summer" by Tennessee Williams.
Turn on C-Span RIGHT NOW, J.J.
On Monday, Moats won a Pulitzer Prize in recognition of his pieces favoring Vermont's legal recognition of same-sex couples. The Herald, with a circulation of 22,000 daily, makes its home in one of the most conservative parts of the sparsely populated state, so most of the reaction to Moats' editorials was not favorable.
More
Don't go near the water
Jeb Bush's controversial plan to dump wastewater near drinking wells may be his big brother's next environmental mess.
More
I thought "Suddenly Last Summer" was by The Motels.
Turn on C-Span RIGHT NOW, J.J.
No can do. No TV.
I see Jex is anthropomorphizing again.
And guess what?The other cops were white!
Now how can that be J.J. ? All blacks arecriminlas and all black cops do is attack other black people. White cops NEVER attack blacks without cause (being black is cause enough, of course) do they J.J.?
Don't look at me. I have never said any of those things. I just object to your knee-jerk reactions blaming everything on racism. I don't make generalizations one way or the other. Each incident should be examined based on the evidence. I was concerned when I heard that 15 blacks and 0 whites had been killed in Cincy. But when I looked at the facts, they didn't support the claims of racism. Circumstances alone are not proof.
They may have a point. The list of corporations with major commercial interests in China — among them Boeing, General Motors and Microsoft — reads like a who's who of big- time contributors to the Republican Party and, in most cases, to the Bush-Cheney inaugural...
Our National Joke Becomes Our National Shame
Of course, today we hear something entirely different from Secty Oneil
What Piss Poor Excuse Will We Get From The Piss Poor Excuse Tommorrow?
Stay tuned.
Well I am not awash in corporate money and am hostage to no one!
Of the Craven & Cowardly Cavemen
Right-wing hard-liners? If only.
Kow-tow!
I think we're making progress. We understand where the power of this country lay. It lays in the hearts and souls of Americans. It must lay in our pocketbooks. It lays in the willingness for people to work hard. But as importantly, it lays in the fact that we've got citizens from all walks of life, all political parties, that are willing to say, I want to love my neighbor. I want to make somebody's life just a little bit better."--Concord Middle School, Concord, N.C., April 11, 2001
SACRAMENTO--Citing what they called a textbook example of market manipulation, energy experts told state legislators Wednesday that a Texas company hoarded space on a key natural gas pipeline into California, causing electricity prices to skyrocket.
The testimony before an Assembly committee investigating the natural gas market highlighted a day in which another legislative panel, a joint Assembly-Senate committee, began probing whether energy companies are systematically gouging California.
Because natural gas is burned by many power plants to produce electricity, a move by El Paso Natural Gas Co. to sell pipeline capacity rights directly to an affiliate caused an increase in electricity prices, energy consultants told the Assembly subcommittee on energy oversight.
Much of the pipeline capacity subsequently went unused, and Southern California Edison alone had to pay $750 million more as a result of higher gas prices last year, they estimated.
"This is a classic economist's case for monopoly power," said Paul R. Carpenter of the Brattle Group, a Cambridge, Mass., consulting firm that provided the expert testimony. Executives from El Paso and Dynegy, another Texas energy company accused of anti-competitive activity on the same pipeline a few years earlier, are scheduled to testify today to defend their actions
LAT
Both sides were demonstrably wrong about several
things, and those who advocate escalation of the
incident into seething American anger and retaliation are (a) too old or too influential (or both) to be concerned that their personal asses might be put on the line; and
(b) testosterone-soaked, but a little deprived of juices higher up in the cranial regions.
As far as I'm concerned, if corporate entanglements with China helped to settle this matter out bloodlessly, that is a good thing, and perhaps in another generation or so, we'll be so internationally entangled that war among nations will not be so easily resorted to as a first option.
Now yet another prediction of mine has come to pass
WASHINGTON -- Gov. Jeb Bush scrambled Wednesday to prevent his brother’s administration from leasing up to 6 million acres off Florida’s Gulf Coast for oil and gas exploration.
Interior Secretary Gale Norton cited the nation’s energy needs in continuing the process toward leasing the tract late this year. Norton’s action was a big setback for Florida’s governor, who earlier had requested that the Interior Department call off its leasing plans. The Idaho-shaped site south of Alabama stretches to within 20 miles of the Florida Panhandle.
Orlando Sentinel
Political pressure from environmentalists could force the president to back away from allowing oil exploration or drilling near Florida, said George Gonzalez, an expert on environmental policy and assistant professor of political science at the University of Miami.
Leasing plan could die
"At this stage, he’s allowing the process go forward to massage the right wing of his party," Gonzalez said. "But so many vested real estate and other economic interests have rejected oil drilling in Florida. I would not be surprised, in the end, if the leasing plan dies."
President Bush said yesterday he has no immediate plan to remove economic sanctions on Iran or Libya, although a White House task force has raised the possibility of lifting those restrictions as a way of increasing U.S. access to oil.
Bush said that his administration has been considering ways to ease the tight global market for petroleum but that it is premature for the United States to eliminate the sanctions on those two countries.
"In our energy review, we are looking at all opportunities to create more energy supply, to take the pressure off of price," he told reporters. "At the same time, I think it's important for the country to review all sanction policies to make sure they are effective. But I have no intention as of this moment [of] taking sanctions off countries like Iran and Libya."
His remarks came after The Washington Post and Reuters reported that an energy task force headed by Vice President Cheney has been working on a draft report calling for the United States to review economic restrictions on Iran, Libya and Iraq
i saw a Salon article yesterday on that and meant to remark on it.
what do you think the fall out wil be wrt Jeb?
No doubt, the GOP will galvanize its resources as best it can. But, the Dems. will as well, and there won't be the stupid mistakes (the Palm Beach ballot, the admonitions to vote on each page in Duval, etc etc etc) there were this last time around.
And, the overall demographics favor the Dems.
I suspect the article's primary premise - Florida is the key to the election - is correct.
Anybody wanna bet that Lieberman won't end up being the Dem. candidate? I would need good odds, considering how early it is in the game and how many things can happen.
The chief spokeskid read an open letter to the Imbecile-in-Chief accusing him of crimes against nature.
The problem though is MUCH more fundamental and cuts across any number of policy areas.
Trade for instance...Look at what's happening or not happening in Quebec this week.
Its a matter of corporatism versus democracy and its seen vividly on both the left and right wings - the anti-commie true believers who love Taiwan, hate China and Cuba....the WTO loons...Pat Buchanan...
Back in 1972, I attended a UN sponsored seminar for bright majors in Poli Sci, Intl Rel. at the Air Force Academy focusing on problems of multi-lateral international action.
Most of us were all geared up to yap about the UN etc. except for one brainiac from Johns-Hopkins who saw, as does Toe, the future of peace lying in the self-interest of large multinational corporations....
Well we now see coming to pass exactly what that kid foresaw back in '72....there is a conflict moderating influence of multi-nationals but at some cost...a cost to individual liberty, health and safety as well as strongly held ideological values.
Of the forty posts from 16291-16320, jexster is responsible for 20, or an astounding 50%.
Jay, please. I thought you were going to take care of this.
That doesn't even count the most recent 3-out-of-5.
Jexster, go away. I am sick of you, you fucking imbecile.
And Jay, if Jexster has the right to spam this thread, I figure I do too. Next time I see him posting fifteen or twenty spam posts at the end of the nigh
